Slog
News & ArtsSunday, October 23, 2011
Occupy The Anarchist Anxiety
Posted by Brendan Kiley on Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 12:30 PM
There weren't nearly as many people at Westlake yesterday afternoon as there had been last Saturday, when the tents went up. Some speculated that the weather was keeping people away. Others said they weren't thrilled by the October 22 Coalition's pre-scheduled rally against police brutality and the visibility of "anarchists"—folks wearing black and bandanas.
"We do not want to see this turn into WTO, that's for damn sure," one organizer said. "There have been rumors that the anarchists were trying to promote some kind of violence or a smash-and-grab."
- Chris Mancuso, on the right.
The differences between the "radical" and "liberal" factions of Occupy was a popular subject of conversation yesterday, and on the Occupy Seattle blog, where the first sentence of one comment neatly sums up the tension: "This movement has two parts. There are the organizers who are careful, timid and non-confrontational. There is the rest of us that more determined to see this through."
But pretty much everyone I talked to yesterday agreed that all the different constituencies in a movement describing itself as "the 99%" were going to have learn to get along.
"The anarchist contingent is a turnoff for me," said Chris Mancuso. "Why not reveal your face when you're rallying for your rights?" his friend Rob Merwin added. "If we're asking for transparency from the government and corporations, let's walk the walk." In the background, a woman's shrill, quavering voice screamed from the stage about how someone had been shot by the police "Seventy times! Se! Ven! Ty! Times!"
One self-described anarchist, who recently moved up from Los Angeles, said she covered her face at protests because she didn't want a photo of her to "wind up on some weird website" or be targeted by police for her participation.
Had she ever been targeted by police for participating in a protest?
"Oh hell yeah," she said...
... and told a story about attending the 2008 Republican National Convention protests where someone took a photo of her. Two weeks later, back in California, some police officers and an FBI agent showed up at her home to ask her what she'd been doing at the protest. (That sounds outlandish at first. But, sadly, given the number of stories about this kind of political surveillance in the United States these days, her story is entirely plausible.)
The "liberals" at Occupy, she said, "are more about order and having a system" but the tension between the radicals and liberals is, in the end, "just people shitting on each other for their views—we don't take the time to listen to each other."
Another self-described anarchist said: "I'm not about violence—it's just about stopping the bullshit. There are a lot of conflicting views in anarchism, but I believe in the peaceful path. I believe in an anarchist style of living, being community-minded instead of focusing on individual goals."
Why do the anarchists make some of the Occupy protesters nervous?
"We get a lot of bad press," he said. "The majority of us are not seeking to engage in violence, but some of the less educated think anarchism is just about kicking over a trashcan."
- "I'm not about violence."
Gabriel, from the Occupy Seattle legal team, said the tension about the anarchists was mostly a misunderstanding. "When you have a lot of different people coming together and some of those people have not had a lot of exposure to other kinds, you can have flare-ups," he said. "In any growth movement, leaderless movement, you have growing pains. We're not trying to exclude any minority view, or let a minority view become tyrannical."
Ross Grimshad, a chemistry grad student at the University of Washington, does not consider himself among the anarchists, but said "they're like the eternal flame, the symbol that keeps the pulse beating," but that the Occupy movement was about other views as well. "This is a public forum," he said. "If you wanna come down here and push the movement in a certain direction, just do that."
- Lt. Sano
From the stage, one of the October 22 speakers said: "It's not a matter of some bad apples—we need to rip out the whole fucking orchard! We need to destroy the state, capitalism, and the police with it!" Nearby, Lt. Sano of the SPD said he'd "heard about the anarchists" and that the SPD was there just to keep the peace. "A lot of people want to express themselves, exercise their First Amendment rights, without the craziness of a completely different agenda."
The riots and violence that some members of the Occupy protest had been nervous about didn't transpire.
1
Anarchists always seem like such nerds. Hysterical, insecure, victimized and self-righteous. And the hiding the face thing is inexcusable. They're like the liberal version of the Klan.
2
It's the tortured nuances of enlightened self-described community minded anarchists vs. the frustrated liberals is search of a framework for political expediency.
3
It's not just anarchists...a name change was announced yesterday before anyone knew what was going on. Now they're going to vote on it tonight to make it Decolonize-Occupy Seattle.
4
I call them haters. They are off the deep end politically. And violence won't cut it with anyone. If they have a beef with police they should form their own protest movement. The problem for them is they have zero credibility with anyone, so they grab coat tails.
5
@1 & 2 nonsensical comments are classic examples of cognitive dissonance --- doing the same thing continuously and one day hoping for a different outcome.
Won't happen....never will.
Now what's the connection between vile child pornography sites and police web sites?
HTTP://WWW.SECURITYNEWSDAILY.COM/ANONYMO…
HTTP://WWW.THETECHHERALD.COM/ARTICLE.PHP…
What indeed?
Won't happen....never will.
Now what's the connection between vile child pornography sites and police web sites?
HTTP://WWW.SECURITYNEWSDAILY.COM/ANONYMO…
HTTP://WWW.THETECHHERALD.COM/ARTICLE.PHP…
What indeed?
7
@6 All the strikes and rioting are having a catastrophic effect on their income source tourism. Real smart considering they're broke.
8
Oh please, the radicals are running the show at Occupy Seattle. I saw the march yesterday, a bunch of deranged mental cases (most regulars you see at the Westlake camp) screaming 'fuck the police'. The anarchists suit right in. Occupy Seattle happily joined in the hate-fest yesterday along with their allies, the anarchists, socialists and communists.
Good luck in getting more than 1% of America to support hateful, screaming, angry dykes. Normal people? I saw 5 out of the few hundred who could even get a job. The rest would fail the face tatts and face piercings screening.
Good luck in getting more than 1% of America to support hateful, screaming, angry dykes. Normal people? I saw 5 out of the few hundred who could even get a job. The rest would fail the face tatts and face piercings screening.
9
Good News from Global Corp.:
As the recent study from Denmark clearly demonstrates, cell phone usage does not cause cancer.
(Ignore all those tinfoil hat types who claim that just because they study included zero children, and just because the researchers were highly compensated by the two top telecoms, and just because they skewed the data by only including the lowest-frequency users of cell phones in their study, clearly this was another rigorous scientific study as it proved what all our advertisements have been stating.)
The US Chamber of Commerce has given the 100% stamp of approval to President Obama for his exemplary support for the passage of the three new Free Trade Agreements between the USA and South Korea, Panama and Columbia.
(Ignore all those tinfoil hat types who claim that just because the South Korean agreement included the clause to allow for 65% non-South Korean worker/factory involvment, so they can access the slave labor factories in North Korean, and just because the agreement with Panama is due to the Panamanian zero corporate taxation, so on paper they can route everything through there and avoid all taxes, and just because the murder rate of labor organizers in Columbia skyrocketed before this passage [their agreement included specifics on murder investigations of union organizers], and just because these agreements would increase unemployment in the USA and are really about global financial integration and further destruction of labor rights and environmental degradation --- this is all patent nonsense and completely goes against what our corporation has been advertising
And remember, we dress fashionably, while those tinfoil hatters dress funny!)
Good day!
End of Global Corp. Newsletter
More...
As the recent study from Denmark clearly demonstrates, cell phone usage does not cause cancer.
(Ignore all those tinfoil hat types who claim that just because they study included zero children, and just because the researchers were highly compensated by the two top telecoms, and just because they skewed the data by only including the lowest-frequency users of cell phones in their study, clearly this was another rigorous scientific study as it proved what all our advertisements have been stating.)
The US Chamber of Commerce has given the 100% stamp of approval to President Obama for his exemplary support for the passage of the three new Free Trade Agreements between the USA and South Korea, Panama and Columbia.
(Ignore all those tinfoil hat types who claim that just because the South Korean agreement included the clause to allow for 65% non-South Korean worker/factory involvment, so they can access the slave labor factories in North Korean, and just because the agreement with Panama is due to the Panamanian zero corporate taxation, so on paper they can route everything through there and avoid all taxes, and just because the murder rate of labor organizers in Columbia skyrocketed before this passage [their agreement included specifics on murder investigations of union organizers], and just because these agreements would increase unemployment in the USA and are really about global financial integration and further destruction of labor rights and environmental degradation --- this is all patent nonsense and completely goes against what our corporation has been advertising
And remember, we dress fashionably, while those tinfoil hatters dress funny!)
Good day!
End of Global Corp. Newsletter
10
@7, Vino,
You are absolutely right, sissyboy, nobody should ever stand up for their rights, they should act like the typical Ameritard wussy......like you, for instance.
Nope, can't go against those advertisers on the boob tube, sonny, can't go against any phony consensus you think you are in agreement with as it's just soooo easy and simple to scam you simpletons, after all.
Shiver on, sonny.....
You are absolutely right, sissyboy, nobody should ever stand up for their rights, they should act like the typical Ameritard wussy......like you, for instance.
Nope, can't go against those advertisers on the boob tube, sonny, can't go against any phony consensus you think you are in agreement with as it's just soooo easy and simple to scam you simpletons, after all.
Shiver on, sonny.....
11
It appears the Ruined-by-Anarchists angle is Slog's attempt to begin extracting itself from its embarrassing overexposure to the OS unmovement. If it weren't for the attendance of alleged "anarchists" (aka not very bright in high school + not picked until the late rounds of kickball) the "movement" has the news-worthiness of any other 4-dozen inactivists. Which is slight.
12
We need to destroy the state, capitalism, and the police with it!Yeah, cuz the weakest members of society always fare so well in the absence of a state.
13
Was there another reason why the 22nd was not big relative turnout? Was it because the 15th was an international day of action and this was not?
"But pretty much everyone I talked to yesterday agreed that all the different constituencies in a movement describing itself as "the 99%" were going to have learn to get along.
"'The anarchist contingent is a turnoff for me...'"
Ok. It's either all-inclusive or it's not. The best one can do to persuade another of your opinion is to engage. I'm not sure why the focus always boils down to the black flaggers moving traffic cones or something.
Also, the trolling about the silly bandanas is ridiculous although very typical. I understand that this might be the least of one's concerns but I also get the desire to not be put in some database for facial recognition and domestic surveillance. (Bring on the inane reactions.)
"But pretty much everyone I talked to yesterday agreed that all the different constituencies in a movement describing itself as "the 99%" were going to have learn to get along.
"'The anarchist contingent is a turnoff for me...'"
Ok. It's either all-inclusive or it's not. The best one can do to persuade another of your opinion is to engage. I'm not sure why the focus always boils down to the black flaggers moving traffic cones or something.
Also, the trolling about the silly bandanas is ridiculous although very typical. I understand that this might be the least of one's concerns but I also get the desire to not be put in some database for facial recognition and domestic surveillance. (Bring on the inane reactions.)
14
If you read this article in New Scientist
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21…
Describing the tight nexus that allocates all world capital, it appears that even "corporations" ... at least the kind that build our cars and cook our burgers ... are really just bit players in the whole shebang!!
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21…
Describing the tight nexus that allocates all world capital, it appears that even "corporations" ... at least the kind that build our cars and cook our burgers ... are really just bit players in the whole shebang!!
16
Besides finding avenues for consensus-based agreement, the various factions of the OS movement should consider that all non-violent tactics should be employed for their ends. Whether or not someone chooses to wear black or a bandanna is inconsequential. We need folks on the frontlines and those that are supportive in other ways. History of social justice movement suppression involves use of undercover agents as provocateurs using divisive tactics to cause friction and fragment a community. Whether or not that is happening here, it is best to remember to remain in solidarity and actively engage with one another.
17
Ha ha!!!!
It looks like the goofy bumbling naive white libtard "progressive advocacy journalists" at Slog are FINALLY waking up to the fact that their fawning association with the "occupy" bowel movement is making them look TOTALLY STUPID!
Way to go, libtards!
LOL!!!!!!
It looks like the goofy bumbling naive white libtard "progressive advocacy journalists" at Slog are FINALLY waking up to the fact that their fawning association with the "occupy" bowel movement is making them look TOTALLY STUPID!
Way to go, libtards!
LOL!!!!!!
18
My life, and those of almost everyone I know, are far to comfortable to want to tear everything down. No amount of adjective laden. over the top, anarchist discourse is going to change that. Changes sure, we can always improve, but I am more than happy to just be an establishment liberal and laugh at the silly radicals.
19
The coverage of the OccupySeattle movement by this "self-styled" blog has been nothing short of disgraceful. SLOG is a wholly owned subsidiary of the !% masquerading as a voice of the left. The McCarthyite defamations by the "self-described" author of this dreck and the shills who post here have no concern for truth, justice, journalism or their readership. They serve only capital, despite their moribund protestations to the contrary.
never yours, a self-styled anarchist.
ps, the reason those identifying as anarchists are wearing bandanas is because they are cops. But you knew that, didn't you.
never yours, a self-styled anarchist.
ps, the reason those identifying as anarchists are wearing bandanas is because they are cops. But you knew that, didn't you.
20
When anarchists point the finger at everybody else and accuse them of being invested in the status quo, they're projecting. They need to look at the beam in their own eye. If they really wanted change, they'd work for realistic change instead of digging in their heels and insisting on an endlessly expanding list of non-negotiable, impossible, contradictory demands. Anarchists are as wedded to the present system as the 1% are. Futile protest is their lifestyle and if things got better that lifestyle would be threatened.
What we need is a 98% movement: us against the 1% who hold all the wealth and the 1% wearing black hoods who give the oligarchy an excuse.
What we need is a 98% movement: us against the 1% who hold all the wealth and the 1% wearing black hoods who give the oligarchy an excuse.
21
@19
Hey, wow, you really put us in our place. We're so shamed by your erudite oration, we will now agree with everything you say & follow your every word. Your rhetorical talents on convincing others and gathering them to your side is truly astounding.
Hey, wow, you really put us in our place. We're so shamed by your erudite oration, we will now agree with everything you say & follow your every word. Your rhetorical talents on convincing others and gathering them to your side is truly astounding.
23
@20 You're accusing "anarchists" of disowning a part of their psyche? What part of yours are you disowning by dismissing their pointed fingers?
*Scare quotes because it's clear that even anarchists don't really know what the label means.
*Scare quotes because it's clear that even anarchists don't really know what the label means.
24
I figured out why there are less people at OS.
Extreme Viaduct Traffic:
http://images.wsdot.wa.gov/nw/005vc16508…
The snarls. The snarls!
Extreme Viaduct Traffic:
http://images.wsdot.wa.gov/nw/005vc16508…
The snarls. The snarls!
26
Treat anybody who joins your march and starts loudly advocating a change of tactics that will result in immediate arrests as an agent provocateur. Concealing identity is a hint, but "let's rush the cops!" is a dead giveaway.
27
There as many interpretations of "anarchism" as there are people who feel affinity with the term. It's a broad and complex philosophy. Before disparaging a valid socio-political viewpoint, please consider that your point-of-view may be just as abhorrent to others. The larger picture should be about how to create an umbrella large enough to contain the diverse and multiplicity of voices in order to create effective change.
28
Not much has changed. During most of the protests of the last 30 years (wars, nuclear energy, injustice), communists, anarchists and others always try to co-opt the protests into they're own political agenda. I'm not an anarchist or a communist. Frankly, I think that they're idiots. But they have every right to exist and of course the right to speak. But why the fuck do they need to 'invade' demonstrations and marches with their own agenda?
I suspect that is what happened with the Tea Party. While I believe that most of them are ignorant, I do believe that their demonstrations too attracted nutcases - the racists.
Sorry guys, schedule your own demonstration and political activities, and leave us alone.
Because at your best, you all still suck.
I suspect that is what happened with the Tea Party. While I believe that most of them are ignorant, I do believe that their demonstrations too attracted nutcases - the racists.
Sorry guys, schedule your own demonstration and political activities, and leave us alone.
Because at your best, you all still suck.
30
After the viaduct comes comes down let's send the anarchists and the cops down there and they can get all Thunderdome. Let's just get it all over and done with.
31
"Sorry guys, schedule your own demonstration and political activities, and leave us alone."
Can you make a drum circle with only 2 people?
"Sorry guys, schedule your own demonstration and political activities, and leave us alone."
Can you make a drum circle with only 2 people?
32
Ugh; took part in a small discussion with one of the anarchist dudes who's done some blocking at the GA. He was anti-any-sort-of-societal-organization. Yet instead of trying to live off the grid he was being a monkey wrench in the gears of democracy. He knew of and appreciated a sliding scale health clinic around Pike Place. What sort of quasi-no-division-of-labor society has produced and provided basic western preventative medicine?
*sigh*
*sigh*
33
I'm baffled by anyone who finds the presence of anarchists at OWS surprising, since non-violent anarchists planned and initiated OWS. They're not some weirdo group that glommed onto the protests; they were at its core weeks before September 17th.
The staff at The Stranger doesn't seem to have any clue yet about contemporary anarchism. The planners of OWS come largely from the Global Justice Movement; they are mostly non-violent, and can be traced historically to communitarian or socialist schools of anarchism. David Graeber describes them in an article titled "The New Anarchists"; that term, though, is used differently by some historians.
The greatest influence the early-planning anarchists have had on OWS is the organizational structure, the General Assembly (GA). The GA makes a lot more sense if you realize that it is grounded not just in activist organizing, but also in theoretical anarchism. You'll hear that the GA is a model that people can learn and apply elsewhere in society; what's often not added is that this model is, structurally and in origins, anarchist. [more in part 2]
The staff at The Stranger doesn't seem to have any clue yet about contemporary anarchism. The planners of OWS come largely from the Global Justice Movement; they are mostly non-violent, and can be traced historically to communitarian or socialist schools of anarchism. David Graeber describes them in an article titled "The New Anarchists"; that term, though, is used differently by some historians.
The greatest influence the early-planning anarchists have had on OWS is the organizational structure, the General Assembly (GA). The GA makes a lot more sense if you realize that it is grounded not just in activist organizing, but also in theoretical anarchism. You'll hear that the GA is a model that people can learn and apply elsewhere in society; what's often not added is that this model is, structurally and in origins, anarchist. [more in part 2]
34
[part 2]
In the initial planning for OWS, there was a very deliberate effort on the part of the non-violent anarchist organizers to marginalize radicals, and even other anarchists, who did not accept non-violence as a core tenet, such as members of Day of Rage or WWP/ANSWER. Those would be anarchists from the individualist strains, or communitarians who have not rejected "propaganda of the deed".
What is happening now is that some of these less peaceful anarchists are using the General Assembly system of internal control to co-opt the protest. There's a great irony here; quite a lot of care has gone into structuring the General Assembly to resist co-opting by hierarchical (or "vertical") external organizations, notably trade unions. Instead, we find they are in danger of being co-opted by other "horizontals", ones with a not-entirely-non-violent outlook.
These less peaceful, more cop-antagonistic radicals do generally accept non-violence as a tactic, but not as a priciple. They also seem to be more inclined to use black bloc tactics, though of course one can't be sure, when the whole point of that maneuver is to prevent you from knowing who, exactly, is engaging in it.
In the initial planning for OWS, there was a very deliberate effort on the part of the non-violent anarchist organizers to marginalize radicals, and even other anarchists, who did not accept non-violence as a core tenet, such as members of Day of Rage or WWP/ANSWER. Those would be anarchists from the individualist strains, or communitarians who have not rejected "propaganda of the deed".
What is happening now is that some of these less peaceful anarchists are using the General Assembly system of internal control to co-opt the protest. There's a great irony here; quite a lot of care has gone into structuring the General Assembly to resist co-opting by hierarchical (or "vertical") external organizations, notably trade unions. Instead, we find they are in danger of being co-opted by other "horizontals", ones with a not-entirely-non-violent outlook.
These less peaceful, more cop-antagonistic radicals do generally accept non-violence as a tactic, but not as a priciple. They also seem to be more inclined to use black bloc tactics, though of course one can't be sure, when the whole point of that maneuver is to prevent you from knowing who, exactly, is engaging in it.
35
@32: I love anarchists of tht ilk. Wannabe Tyler Durdens always make me laugh. Most of them have the survival skills of lemmings and would be among the first to drop out of the food chain, and yet can't wait to see it all come crashing down.
36
[bonus part]
One rather interesting thing about this co-opting of a horizontal structure by other horizontals is that it happened before, and in connection with a large, broad-based protest occupying Wall Street, no less.
If you have 20 minutes, I strongly recommend Al Giordono's Traité du Savoir-Vivre for the OWS Gener…. It's well and simply written, despite the perhaps off-putting title. It doesn't have anything to say about anarchism, per se, but it makes strong points about activism and organizing.
One rather interesting thing about this co-opting of a horizontal structure by other horizontals is that it happened before, and in connection with a large, broad-based protest occupying Wall Street, no less.
If you have 20 minutes, I strongly recommend Al Giordono's Traité du Savoir-Vivre for the OWS Gener…. It's well and simply written, despite the perhaps off-putting title. It doesn't have anything to say about anarchism, per se, but it makes strong points about activism and organizing.
37
@32
There are, in fact, anarchists who live entirely off the grid; the anarcho-primitives come to mind immediately. Obviously, you don't hear much about them.
Instead, the anarchists you actually encounter will tend to be of the "realist" variety, who believe that modern society is unavoidable, and that progress toward anarchism must be made incrementally, in a process of carving out anarchist spaces within existing society.
Making use of public health facilities is entirely consistent with that outlook; in fact, draining the state of resources would be looked upon as a means of slowly eroding state control. It's tactically identical to the Cloward-Piven Strategy.
There are, in fact, anarchists who live entirely off the grid; the anarcho-primitives come to mind immediately. Obviously, you don't hear much about them.
Instead, the anarchists you actually encounter will tend to be of the "realist" variety, who believe that modern society is unavoidable, and that progress toward anarchism must be made incrementally, in a process of carving out anarchist spaces within existing society.
Making use of public health facilities is entirely consistent with that outlook; in fact, draining the state of resources would be looked upon as a means of slowly eroding state control. It's tactically identical to the Cloward-Piven Strategy.
38
@23
Nobody has any idea what the fuck you just said, or why. Your post is an exercise in futility, but it makes you feel like you've struck a blow. A blow of some kind. For something, against something. What kind? For what? Against what? Nobody knows.
Anarchy, ladies and gentlemen, anarchy. Take a bow.
Nobody has any idea what the fuck you just said, or why. Your post is an exercise in futility, but it makes you feel like you've struck a blow. A blow of some kind. For something, against something. What kind? For what? Against what? Nobody knows.
Anarchy, ladies and gentlemen, anarchy. Take a bow.
39
@37, "carving out anarchist spaces within existing society"
Like the banksters and their friends who carved out a nice lack of regulation/absence of state oversight over the last 30 years?
Like the banksters and their friends who carved out a nice lack of regulation/absence of state oversight over the last 30 years?
41
"The GA makes a lot more sense if you realize that it is grounded not just in activist organizing, but also in theoretical anarchism."
Which means it'll be gone by Christmas and have no effect, beyond its mastabatory core, on ordinary, hard working Americans….good news. Enjoy your circle jerk.
Which means it'll be gone by Christmas and have no effect, beyond its mastabatory core, on ordinary, hard working Americans….good news. Enjoy your circle jerk.
42
Firstly, I appreciate any comments not made using sarcasm or blatant insults. Though they may be critical of my personal beliefs, they can be a valid jumping off point for constructive discussion.
I am an anarchist, I was at the October 22nd march. I've participated in GA's and generally been around and in support of various causes (anarchistic and otherwise) over the past year and a half or so. Since the very beginning of the re-emergence of an overt Anarchistic presence in Seattle, especially now at OS "There have been rumors that the anarchists were trying to promote some kind of violence" which has always proven wrong. In fact, I don't know of any incidents in which Seattle Anarchists have participated in any violent or extreme activities involving or during non-anarchist activities. While some might participate in some form or direct action on their own, or involving other consenting participants, I haven't known them to co-opt or lead any greater marches/movements/actions in a violent direction. The worst that's come from an Anarchistic presence at any non-Anarchistic action is some chants that some folks might disagree with, though Anarchists are never the only ones chanting them.
Some Anarchists have absolutely been involved in OS because it's basis is in a criticism of capitalism. While some may only find fault in some aspects of capitalism, Anarchists find the whole system inherently oppressive. Anarchistic views may be more extreme than others at OS, but our views are just as valid as any others. Anarchists have not forced their views on anyone. Any direction OS has taken has been by majority through the GA, and even though Anarchists only make up a small minority of OS, they have become the scape goat for anyone who dislikes a decision made at any given GA. The fact is the movement is becoming more extreme and any influence Anarchist have on it is in the form of inspiration, not intimidation.
And lastly, to address the issue of Black Bloc: Different people have different reasons for wearing it. Some may be at risk of losing their jobs if seen protesting, some may be at risk of police oppression, some might just be showing solidarity with those who could face these forms of oppression if their faces are shown. It's not hurting anyone, so I don't see why it's an issue. Some might say it's cowardly, but my guess is that these detractors have never faced these sorts of issues before.
More...
I am an anarchist, I was at the October 22nd march. I've participated in GA's and generally been around and in support of various causes (anarchistic and otherwise) over the past year and a half or so. Since the very beginning of the re-emergence of an overt Anarchistic presence in Seattle, especially now at OS "There have been rumors that the anarchists were trying to promote some kind of violence" which has always proven wrong. In fact, I don't know of any incidents in which Seattle Anarchists have participated in any violent or extreme activities involving or during non-anarchist activities. While some might participate in some form or direct action on their own, or involving other consenting participants, I haven't known them to co-opt or lead any greater marches/movements/actions in a violent direction. The worst that's come from an Anarchistic presence at any non-Anarchistic action is some chants that some folks might disagree with, though Anarchists are never the only ones chanting them.
Some Anarchists have absolutely been involved in OS because it's basis is in a criticism of capitalism. While some may only find fault in some aspects of capitalism, Anarchists find the whole system inherently oppressive. Anarchistic views may be more extreme than others at OS, but our views are just as valid as any others. Anarchists have not forced their views on anyone. Any direction OS has taken has been by majority through the GA, and even though Anarchists only make up a small minority of OS, they have become the scape goat for anyone who dislikes a decision made at any given GA. The fact is the movement is becoming more extreme and any influence Anarchist have on it is in the form of inspiration, not intimidation.
And lastly, to address the issue of Black Bloc: Different people have different reasons for wearing it. Some may be at risk of losing their jobs if seen protesting, some may be at risk of police oppression, some might just be showing solidarity with those who could face these forms of oppression if their faces are shown. It's not hurting anyone, so I don't see why it's an issue. Some might say it's cowardly, but my guess is that these detractors have never faced these sorts of issues before.
43
@37
Yes, that comparison would be valid for some anarchists, though I suspect a minority. Most, I think, would insist that The Banksters never needed deregulation or poor oversight, because the key rules they exploit are the ones they created to begin with. In this theoretical framework, the problem is the underlying acceptance of Capitalism and the Nation State, and to grant legitimacy to those systems via regulation is to capitulate to a fundamentally unjust society.
If you prefer the route of regulation and oversight, then you're what the "radicals" are referring to as a "liberal". In the internal OWS nomenclature, the "liberal" is the right wing, and the "radical" is the left.
Yes, that comparison would be valid for some anarchists, though I suspect a minority. Most, I think, would insist that The Banksters never needed deregulation or poor oversight, because the key rules they exploit are the ones they created to begin with. In this theoretical framework, the problem is the underlying acceptance of Capitalism and the Nation State, and to grant legitimacy to those systems via regulation is to capitulate to a fundamentally unjust society.
If you prefer the route of regulation and oversight, then you're what the "radicals" are referring to as a "liberal". In the internal OWS nomenclature, the "liberal" is the right wing, and the "radical" is the left.
44
Unfortunately anarchists, like many people in Seattle, don't understand the difference between thinking you're smarter than everyone else and actually being smarter.
46
@42
I don't buy that. The vote totals at these GAs are just over a hundred people. So either this movement is very small, or the people voting represent only a small fraction of the total. Incredibly low turn out is not exactly a democratic thing. The people involved in these GAs are much more likely to be on the radical end of the huge segment of people who want the economy to be a bit more fair.
I don't buy that. The vote totals at these GAs are just over a hundred people. So either this movement is very small, or the people voting represent only a small fraction of the total. Incredibly low turn out is not exactly a democratic thing. The people involved in these GAs are much more likely to be on the radical end of the huge segment of people who want the economy to be a bit more fair.
47
"In the internal OWS nomenclature, the "liberal" is the right wing, and the "radical" is the left."
And yet you think you represent 99% of Americans. Shame you can't even get a blip on election day.
Carry on with your circle jerk.
"In the internal OWS nomenclature, the "liberal" is the right wing, and the "radical" is the left."
And yet you think you represent 99% of Americans. Shame you can't even get a blip on election day.
Carry on with your circle jerk.
48
@42
I would avoid capitalizing "black bloc". It's a protest tactic, not a faction or theoretical stance. There's enough cluelessness about anarchism without perpetuating the idea that there's a Black Bloc group out there somewhere, or worse, that "anarchist" is a synonym for black bloc tactics.
I would avoid capitalizing "black bloc". It's a protest tactic, not a faction or theoretical stance. There's enough cluelessness about anarchism without perpetuating the idea that there's a Black Bloc group out there somewhere, or worse, that "anarchist" is a synonym for black bloc tactics.
50
@46 Yes, I agree that numbers in the 100's are very low. However, OS is open to anyone and the decisions made there only address the people at OS, not society as a whole. Anyone is free to come, occupy and vote.
@48 I'm just in the habit of over-capitalizing nouns. It's a personal grammatical habit. Valid concern though. There are certainly many Anarchists that don't wear black bloc and some non-anarchists that do.
@48 I'm just in the habit of over-capitalizing nouns. It's a personal grammatical habit. Valid concern though. There are certainly many Anarchists that don't wear black bloc and some non-anarchists that do.
51
@46
I would be cautious when talking about "voting" in the GA.
The GA derives its legitimacy from consensus, not majority rule. What you perceive as "voting" is a show of hands to determine the extent of consensus for a given issue; it is used to gauge sentiment, not to adopt resolutions. This show of hands is usually one of the last steps before official adoption of a measure, but the final step must be consensus.
In order to pass, people who have reservations about a measure must at most indicate a position of "disagree, but not block". This is not a "vote", there is no counting of ballots or hands necessary (if someone is counting and reporting that count later, it is external to the process). Measures become official when no-one in the group feels any need to discuss the measure further, and when no-one in the group is blocking the measure.
At least, that's how it's supposed to work in theory. Reality, as ever, can be a bit messier.
I would be cautious when talking about "voting" in the GA.
The GA derives its legitimacy from consensus, not majority rule. What you perceive as "voting" is a show of hands to determine the extent of consensus for a given issue; it is used to gauge sentiment, not to adopt resolutions. This show of hands is usually one of the last steps before official adoption of a measure, but the final step must be consensus.
In order to pass, people who have reservations about a measure must at most indicate a position of "disagree, but not block". This is not a "vote", there is no counting of ballots or hands necessary (if someone is counting and reporting that count later, it is external to the process). Measures become official when no-one in the group feels any need to discuss the measure further, and when no-one in the group is blocking the measure.
At least, that's how it's supposed to work in theory. Reality, as ever, can be a bit messier.
52
"the decisions made there only address the people at OS, not society as a whole."
Wow, that's a fucking relief. Generally I don't follow decisions made by socially retarded crayon chewers.
Carry on with the circle jerk. The more light put on this Pythonesque entertainment at Westlake the better.
Wow, that's a fucking relief. Generally I don't follow decisions made by socially retarded crayon chewers.
Carry on with the circle jerk. The more light put on this Pythonesque entertainment at Westlake the better.
54
You think so Fnarf? Here's OS at work…think of Graham Chapman as Mayor McGinn:
http://tinyurl.com/2vxwka
http://tinyurl.com/2vxwka
55
@53
Yes, it is.
The giant puppets and stilt-walkers and occasional odd signs and chants are all quite intentionally absurdist. I believe the idea there is to delegitimize authority by making a mockery of norms and rules. I also think that only the Yes Men are anywhere near as good at it as Abbie Hoffman was. And it seems pretty obvious to me that this stuff backfires badly when it isn't done well, but that's entirely subjective.
With that said... well, Monty Python sketches were quite political at times, weren't they?
Yes, it is.
The giant puppets and stilt-walkers and occasional odd signs and chants are all quite intentionally absurdist. I believe the idea there is to delegitimize authority by making a mockery of norms and rules. I also think that only the Yes Men are anywhere near as good at it as Abbie Hoffman was. And it seems pretty obvious to me that this stuff backfires badly when it isn't done well, but that's entirely subjective.
With that said... well, Monty Python sketches were quite political at times, weren't they?
57
@53 LOL
We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week. But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified at a special biweekly meeting. By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs...
We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week. But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified at a special biweekly meeting. By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs...
58
@57
Which "we" are you talking about? I assume you're not referring to OWS or OS, which are governed exclusively by consensus via General Assembly.
Which "we" are you talking about? I assume you're not referring to OWS or OS, which are governed exclusively by consensus via General Assembly.
59
@58
WHOOOSH!!!
Ha ha that one went right over your head!!!!
I wouldn't expect any different from a dour humorless 'anarchist'
WHOOOSH!!!
Ha ha that one went right over your head!!!!
I wouldn't expect any different from a dour humorless 'anarchist'
61
@59
Forgive me, it's been decades since I saw Holy Grail, and there's no shortage of people actually saying things like that these days.
And for the record, I certainly don't think of myself as an anarchist.
Forgive me, it's been decades since I saw Holy Grail, and there's no shortage of people actually saying things like that these days.
And for the record, I certainly don't think of myself as an anarchist.
62
I was thinking of the chant in "Life of Brian" where he goes "You are all individuals" and the crowd replies in unison "We are all individuals". Sounds just like the General Assembly speeches. Also, the People's Front of Judea vs. the Judean People's Front, the Judean Popular People's Front, the Campaign for a Free Galilee, and the Popular Front of Judea.
@55, fortunately, unlike Abbie Hoffman no one could possibly take this "movement" seriously. Hoffman was the best friend the Republicans ever had. With luck, no one will remember any of this "Occupy Seattle" business three months from now.
@55, fortunately, unlike Abbie Hoffman no one could possibly take this "movement" seriously. Hoffman was the best friend the Republicans ever had. With luck, no one will remember any of this "Occupy Seattle" business three months from now.
64
Next weekend Westlake should see another uptick in activity. A special guest speaker from out of town will be delivering a noontime address, Mr. Tarquin Fintimlinbinwhinbimlim Bus Stop F'tang F'tang Ole Biscuit-Barrel.
65
@62
If Republicans aren't taking OWS seriously, then they're sure making a good show of pretending to. Or haven't you heard about the hashtag-armbanded hippie fascist drum circle communists?
They'll milk the resentment at least as long as the Zuccotti Park General Assembly maintains its encampment.
I do expect a lot of the satellite protests will dry up and blow away sooner rather than later. The one in New York, though, has the potential to become one of those more or less permanent NYC fixtures, with tourists posing for photos in front of it, and natives disdainfully ignoring it entirely. A political Naked Cowboy, if you will.
If Republicans aren't taking OWS seriously, then they're sure making a good show of pretending to. Or haven't you heard about the hashtag-armbanded hippie fascist drum circle communists?
They'll milk the resentment at least as long as the Zuccotti Park General Assembly maintains its encampment.
I do expect a lot of the satellite protests will dry up and blow away sooner rather than later. The one in New York, though, has the potential to become one of those more or less permanent NYC fixtures, with tourists posing for photos in front of it, and natives disdainfully ignoring it entirely. A political Naked Cowboy, if you will.
66
@38 Who said I'm an anarchist? Presumptuous moron. I can't be blamed for your lack of reading comprehension. Don't throw around words like "projection" at other people if you don't know what they mean.
67
@66
I underscored my point by touching on Luke 6:42 for those who might have missed my Freud reference. Nobody misunderstood what I said. Just as nobody has any idea what you're prattling on about. Though clearly you fancy yourself a psychology expert. How droll.
Well, okay, maybe your anarchist buds know what you're saying. Or at least they're nodding, which is how one pretends to understand. Nobody else can make heads or tails.
I underscored my point by touching on Luke 6:42 for those who might have missed my Freud reference. Nobody misunderstood what I said. Just as nobody has any idea what you're prattling on about. Though clearly you fancy yourself a psychology expert. How droll.
Well, okay, maybe your anarchist buds know what you're saying. Or at least they're nodding, which is how one pretends to understand. Nobody else can make heads or tails.
68
Glad you can speak for everybody and preach how to "get things done!" It's probably worked so well before, eh?
"Who said I'm an anarchist? "
"Well, okay, maybe your anarchist buds"
Go ahead, I get called many things. Now I am an anarchist. How...droll!
I'd rather be the Anti-Christ.
"Who said I'm an anarchist? "
"Well, okay, maybe your anarchist buds"
Go ahead, I get called many things. Now I am an anarchist. How...droll!
I'd rather be the Anti-Christ.
69
@67
Behold the great Elder God, wisdom falling like boulders from his ancient lips to crush the feeble minds of the uncomprehending half-awake, already gibbering insanely in His presence.
Alternately, maybe no-one understands you because you're simply articulating your position poorly.
Behold the great Elder God, wisdom falling like boulders from his ancient lips to crush the feeble minds of the uncomprehending half-awake, already gibbering insanely in His presence.
Alternately, maybe no-one understands you because you're simply articulating your position poorly.
70
@67 Btw, I'm sorry you took offense at my previous comment @23. None was meant. Sorry, you can't read it though.
71
@69 This is what you'll find on Slog when it comes to this topic: wizened elders who can't allow dissenters to express any opinions beyond the fauxgressive orthodoxy. Hey, at least we can make fun of Rethuglicans together!
72
@71
Oh, I don't know about that. If there's some united front of orthodox whatsit operating in SLOG comments, they're very cleverly disguising themselves as the usual motley band of internet addicts with lots of different, easily-pushed emotional buttons.
And there, finally, is a description that I will accept as applying to myself...
Oh, I don't know about that. If there's some united front of orthodox whatsit operating in SLOG comments, they're very cleverly disguising themselves as the usual motley band of internet addicts with lots of different, easily-pushed emotional buttons.
And there, finally, is a description that I will accept as applying to myself...
73
What happened to the coverage yesterday, Slog? There were over a thousand marching through the streets of Seattle. At one point, the march was four city blocks long. It was another great weekend ... and the movement was focused less on occupying Westlake and more on reaching the people in the city at large, as you've advocated for.
Yes, the anarchists were part of the march. But they were an integral part of the whole and didn't disrupt the point of why we we're all out there on the streets together.
Unfortunately, the absence of coverage yesterday by Goldy, Paul, Cienna and others signals more than just that they deserve a weekend off after the nearly round-the-clock GREAT coverage they've provided up to this point. Rather, it seems The Stranger has reached a low point and have, in turn, projected it onto the movement.
People inexperienced in grassroots initiatives and coalition building are in the process of learning their lessons the hard way. What we are seeing are the raw and very public growing pains of a mass movement.
Please don't give up on reporting on Occupy Seattle.
Yes, the anarchists were part of the march. But they were an integral part of the whole and didn't disrupt the point of why we we're all out there on the streets together.
Unfortunately, the absence of coverage yesterday by Goldy, Paul, Cienna and others signals more than just that they deserve a weekend off after the nearly round-the-clock GREAT coverage they've provided up to this point. Rather, it seems The Stranger has reached a low point and have, in turn, projected it onto the movement.
People inexperienced in grassroots initiatives and coalition building are in the process of learning their lessons the hard way. What we are seeing are the raw and very public growing pains of a mass movement.
Please don't give up on reporting on Occupy Seattle.
74
@73
Do you have some links to coverage of Saturday's march? I can't find local Saturday/Sunday press on OS activity in any of the usual suspects (Stranger, PI, Times, KIRO, KOMO, Publicola, Weekly).
If the Saturday march was comparable to last week's rally, then it sounds like there's been a pretty egregious failure of local journalism.
Do you have some links to coverage of Saturday's march? I can't find local Saturday/Sunday press on OS activity in any of the usual suspects (Stranger, PI, Times, KIRO, KOMO, Publicola, Weekly).
If the Saturday march was comparable to last week's rally, then it sounds like there's been a pretty egregious failure of local journalism.
77
@75
Hmm, 75, that's ironic, 75 years ago is as long as it has been since anarchist really did anything.
The Spanish Civil war example is pretty tired.
Comparing today's spoiled brat, ivory tower, theoretical "anarchist" to the CNT fighting a civil war in 1936 (that only went as long as it did due to the poor quality of troops on both sides) is like, well, OWS comparing it self to Arab spring and Libyan rebels.
Hmm, 75, that's ironic, 75 years ago is as long as it has been since anarchist really did anything.
The Spanish Civil war example is pretty tired.
Comparing today's spoiled brat, ivory tower, theoretical "anarchist" to the CNT fighting a civil war in 1936 (that only went as long as it did due to the poor quality of troops on both sides) is like, well, OWS comparing it self to Arab spring and Libyan rebels.
78
Thanks, @robotslave, for laying out the distinctions of anarchism, and the fact that OWS was organized by anarchists using open, consensus decision-making principles. I was going to post similar info, but you did so much more eloquently.
To the rest of you naysayers: Fnarf, "bourgeois balaclava", etc., I would like to point you to the fact that shortly more than one month since OWS began, it has spread to 951 cities in 82 countries, and counting. It has forced the Chinese gov't to ban/block the term "Occupy [city name]". It is more important than you seem to understand.
To the rest of you naysayers: Fnarf, "bourgeois balaclava", etc., I would like to point you to the fact that shortly more than one month since OWS began, it has spread to 951 cities in 82 countries, and counting. It has forced the Chinese gov't to ban/block the term "Occupy [city name]". It is more important than you seem to understand.
79
@77 - OWS isn't comparing itself to the Arab Spring, other commentators are.
As to the Durriti column/CNT examples, oddly, anarchists are still around in Spain, running collective factories and co-opertatives today. Not very popular to mention that fact at all in the press, though.
Perhaps also you missed the fact that small-a anarchists were behind all the Global Justice protests during the '00s
As to the Durriti column/CNT examples, oddly, anarchists are still around in Spain, running collective factories and co-opertatives today. Not very popular to mention that fact at all in the press, though.
Perhaps also you missed the fact that small-a anarchists were behind all the Global Justice protests during the '00s
80
@79
"Perhaps also you missed the fact that small-a anarchists were behind all the Global Justice protests during the '00s "
FTAA, WTO, DNCLA, G8, I was there.
Many of the Spanish anarchist I have met were typical machismo assholes, but not half as bad as the greeks at every little ineffective anarchist idolized. The greeks were little more than petty thugs with a political cause, kind of like ANTFA, but dumber and sexist.
"Perhaps also you missed the fact that small-a anarchists were behind all the Global Justice protests during the '00s "
FTAA, WTO, DNCLA, G8, I was there.
Many of the Spanish anarchist I have met were typical machismo assholes, but not half as bad as the greeks at every little ineffective anarchist idolized. The greeks were little more than petty thugs with a political cause, kind of like ANTFA, but dumber and sexist.
81
First of all, I want to congratulate you on failed understanding of irony.
You are right that one shouldn't compare time periods or movements, which is not what I did.
"The Spanish Civil war example is pretty tired.
Comparing today's spoiled brat, ivory tower, theoretical "anarchist" to the CNT fighting a civil war in 1936 (that only went as long as it did due to the poor quality of troops on both sides) is like, well, OWS comparing it self to Arab spring and Libyan rebels."
Why's that "tired" if it worked for them (or was a work in progress) until Franco came and executed a whole bunch of people? Oh, and as @79 points out, anarchism is still somewhat popular in Spain which is why the indignados has had massive turnout. Ever hear of Mondragon, whose business model is being replicated internationally? Seems like 80k+ people who owe their employment to anarchist ideas would beg to differ with you.
You are right that one shouldn't compare time periods or movements, which is not what I did.
"The Spanish Civil war example is pretty tired.
Comparing today's spoiled brat, ivory tower, theoretical "anarchist" to the CNT fighting a civil war in 1936 (that only went as long as it did due to the poor quality of troops on both sides) is like, well, OWS comparing it self to Arab spring and Libyan rebels."
Why's that "tired" if it worked for them (or was a work in progress) until Franco came and executed a whole bunch of people? Oh, and as @79 points out, anarchism is still somewhat popular in Spain which is why the indignados has had massive turnout. Ever hear of Mondragon, whose business model is being replicated internationally? Seems like 80k+ people who owe their employment to anarchist ideas would beg to differ with you.
82
Tired as in it is always claimed as a successful example of anarchism by people who have nothing to do with Spanish syndicalism. I would also say that its failure had more to do being completely sold out by the communist factions, rather than by Franco.
And if we are gonna talk about simple jobs, the BILLIONS of people who owe their jobs to capitalist ideas would beg to differ with you.
And if we are gonna talk about simple jobs, the BILLIONS of people who owe their jobs to capitalist ideas would beg to differ with you.
83
@82 Listen, I'm not even claiming to be anti-capitalist in every sense. I just don't know.
But what's your point, exactly? It's not a congruent argument. My response was only to your claim that anarchism hadn't done ANYTHING in 75 years, which is wrong as Arizmendi cooperatives are showing up everywhere, not just Mondragon. Let's see, instead of zero, it's 80K.
But what's your point, exactly? It's not a congruent argument. My response was only to your claim that anarchism hadn't done ANYTHING in 75 years, which is wrong as Arizmendi cooperatives are showing up everywhere, not just Mondragon. Let's see, instead of zero, it's 80K.
84
@82: "And if we are gonna talk about simple jobs, the BILLIONS of people who owe their jobs to capitalist ideas would beg to differ with you."
You are actually serious, aren't you? HA!! It is funny that you say it, sad that you think it.
You are actually serious, aren't you? HA!! It is funny that you say it, sad that you think it.
85
I love how majority of folks on this thread are absolutely INTIMIDATED by people who actually get points across in far more effective ways aka the anarchists.. Most of you liberals are phonies and probably narc's since most of you like to co-op with the police. I could care less what you liberals spew out of your nasty mouths. Your labels, your needs to thrash anyone who does not think like you is shit and a waste of human life. You all suck! Pathetic, passive fools!
87
@85: "far more effective ways aka the anarchists"
You idiots couldn't solve a crossword puzzle.
Effective at WHAT? You're making suburbanites scared and conservatives laugh.
"Most of you liberals are phonies and probably narc's since most of you like to co-op with the police."
Learn some goddamned grammar if you want to be taken seriously.
"Your labels, your needs to thrash anyone who does not think like you is shit and a waste of human life. You all suck! Pathetic, passive fools!"
Better to be a passive fool than an active one. I'm passive because I'd be active if there was a targeted, useful action. You act without thinking, you act without a solid goal in mind, you act without any results. Fuck off, child.
You idiots couldn't solve a crossword puzzle.
Effective at WHAT? You're making suburbanites scared and conservatives laugh.
"Most of you liberals are phonies and probably narc's since most of you like to co-op with the police."
Learn some goddamned grammar if you want to be taken seriously.
"Your labels, your needs to thrash anyone who does not think like you is shit and a waste of human life. You all suck! Pathetic, passive fools!"
Better to be a passive fool than an active one. I'm passive because I'd be active if there was a targeted, useful action. You act without thinking, you act without a solid goal in mind, you act without any results. Fuck off, child.
88
@ 88. Maybe "anarchist" is Slog's new "pit bull." Are they just a misunderstood and unfairly maligned species? Or are they, deep down, pure eeeeeeeeeevil?
89
@88: They're the space monkeys from Fight Club. All for "smashing the system", but they have no clue what they're doing. Less counterculture than jocks in black hoodies.
90
@88 Why did you just address that to yourself?
But what you said right there is the heart of the problem.
It's the Stranger itself that has framed this ridiculous outrage-generating absolutist rhetorical framework in Slog. You're the ones who keep geting the plebes whipped up with these Trolling articles. Pit Bulls and otherwise.
Your comment right there — and in all these OWS-Seattle "With us or Against Us" threads— just outlined two absurd choices with not room for actual thought.
There is are other more complex options.
You know you guys worked real hard to make yourselves the center of this OWS-Seattle movement beyond any actual reporting to become some propaganda arm for them. The Stranger so wanted to be part of a revolution you all could taste it. God. Those first reports by that kid in New York - which thankfully got yanked - were so terrible.
And now it's obvious the movement here is going down in flames you want to play the other side of it. How about just being reporters on this? How about that?
Maybe if you guys had actually been reporters from the beginning and asked real questions about it, instead of being relentless cheerleaders, the "movement" might have felt legitimate rather than dismal pseudo-hipster failure it is.
I hope the Occupy Wall Street people succeed in something - in Wall Street where it matters. In Seattle? Nobody cares. Nobody.
I hope something good happens out of all this. But if not can we at least have some sort of intellectually honest examination of what this thing is even about?
But what you said right there is the heart of the problem.
It's the Stranger itself that has framed this ridiculous outrage-generating absolutist rhetorical framework in Slog. You're the ones who keep geting the plebes whipped up with these Trolling articles. Pit Bulls and otherwise.
Your comment right there — and in all these OWS-Seattle "With us or Against Us" threads— just outlined two absurd choices with not room for actual thought.
There is are other more complex options.
You know you guys worked real hard to make yourselves the center of this OWS-Seattle movement beyond any actual reporting to become some propaganda arm for them. The Stranger so wanted to be part of a revolution you all could taste it. God. Those first reports by that kid in New York - which thankfully got yanked - were so terrible.
And now it's obvious the movement here is going down in flames you want to play the other side of it. How about just being reporters on this? How about that?
Maybe if you guys had actually been reporters from the beginning and asked real questions about it, instead of being relentless cheerleaders, the "movement" might have felt legitimate rather than dismal pseudo-hipster failure it is.
I hope the Occupy Wall Street people succeed in something - in Wall Street where it matters. In Seattle? Nobody cares. Nobody.
I hope something good happens out of all this. But if not can we at least have some sort of intellectually honest examination of what this thing is even about?
91
@ 90. Because I screwed up and meant to address it to @ 86.
And our coverage isn't quite that tactical. With Occupy, we did what we always do—hear about stuff, show up, see things and hear things, have opinions, then write those down for other people to get exercised about (or not) in comments threads.
And our coverage isn't quite that tactical. With Occupy, we did what we always do—hear about stuff, show up, see things and hear things, have opinions, then write those down for other people to get exercised about (or not) in comments threads.
92
@90
No. You did what you always do which is have opinions FIRST before observing and reporting.
Maybe, just maybe it's time you guys held back for a little bit and reported before jumping in with less-than fully informed opinions.
Here is the problem and I hope you read this and think about it:
That little joke on the masthead "Seattles Only Paper", the curse is it's now it's pretty much true. And you've all gotten some horrific egos about it. The peevish grudge holding. The hypocrisy. And on SLOG this outrage bullshit.
In a town of liberals you have now no accountability or real competition anymore.
I've been reading The Stranger from day one. When people hated on you guys I've was arguing in support of the The Stranger from day one. But man. Lately. With the tunnel. Jean Godden. These absurd SLOG posts with the axe grinding and public shaming.
Look. I'm not the only one noticing how thin the Stranger is getting. You'r ad base has shrunk dramatically. It's not all due to the economy, trust me. My clients won't touch you with a ten foot poll anymore.
The likelihood the paper will survive without being bought out by a much larger company is thin. I don't want that. You dont want that. Write this off as concern trolling, the dismissal du jour, but get it together people. Make up your minds if you want to be journalists or some Spy magazine stepchild. You cant't just keep falling back on the argument your "Advocacy Journalists" with out doing the journalists part. Eli excepted.
Knock off the hijinks, grow up and be actual journalists. Eli excepted.
No. You did what you always do which is have opinions FIRST before observing and reporting.
Maybe, just maybe it's time you guys held back for a little bit and reported before jumping in with less-than fully informed opinions.
Here is the problem and I hope you read this and think about it:
That little joke on the masthead "Seattles Only Paper", the curse is it's now it's pretty much true. And you've all gotten some horrific egos about it. The peevish grudge holding. The hypocrisy. And on SLOG this outrage bullshit.
In a town of liberals you have now no accountability or real competition anymore.
I've been reading The Stranger from day one. When people hated on you guys I've was arguing in support of the The Stranger from day one. But man. Lately. With the tunnel. Jean Godden. These absurd SLOG posts with the axe grinding and public shaming.
Look. I'm not the only one noticing how thin the Stranger is getting. You'r ad base has shrunk dramatically. It's not all due to the economy, trust me. My clients won't touch you with a ten foot poll anymore.
The likelihood the paper will survive without being bought out by a much larger company is thin. I don't want that. You dont want that. Write this off as concern trolling, the dismissal du jour, but get it together people. Make up your minds if you want to be journalists or some Spy magazine stepchild. You cant't just keep falling back on the argument your "Advocacy Journalists" with out doing the journalists part. Eli excepted.
Knock off the hijinks, grow up and be actual journalists. Eli excepted.
93
Do you actually have any clue about their numbers, or are you talking out of your ass, tkc?
Sounds like someone's lame, detached, and impotent "I COULD HAVE YOUR JOB" spiel.
"My clients won't touch you with a ten foot poll anymore."
Oh no, not your clients! Anything but your clients!
Sounds like someone's lame, detached, and impotent "I COULD HAVE YOUR JOB" spiel.
"My clients won't touch you with a ten foot poll anymore."
Oh no, not your clients! Anything but your clients!
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