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News & ArtsFriday, October 7, 2011
2012 / Politics / Religion Romney Not a Christian
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 3:44 PM
Hey, it's not just gays who are getting attacked at this weekend's Values Voter Summit! We feel your pain, Mormons, we feel your pain:
Texas evangelical leader Robert Jeffress, the Baptist megachurch pastor who introduced Rick Perry at the Values Voter Summit, said Friday afternoon he does not believe Mitt Romney is a Christian. Jeffress described Romney's Mormon faith as a “cult,” and said evangelicals had only one real option in the 2012 primaries. “That is a mainstream view, that Mormonism is a cult,” Jeffress told reporters here. “Every true, born again follower of Christ ought to embrace a Christian over a non-Christian.” Asked by POLITICO if he believed Romney is a Christian, Jeffress answered: “No.”
Says Andrew:
Well it's on now. The pastor, Robert Jeffress, who introduced Rick Perry at the Values Voters Summit, has just opened a can of evangelical whup-ass on Mitt Romney.... And I just heard Tony Perkins on CNN refuse to deny that Mormonism is a cult. I have to say the crudeness of this attack, even if Perry had no idea a surrogate would convey this message, is striking. It appears the Perry camp signed off on Jeffress two weeks ahead of time and Jeffress has said this kind of thing before—which makes this even more gob-smacking.
If you wonder why Romney cannot quite seal the deal, Pastor Jeffress has part of the answer. If you turn a political party in a church, as the GOP essentially is, sectarianism will eventually emerge. In all its ugly, bigoted, negative manifestations. Perry is showing he can play a card from the bottom of the deck when he's up against it.
This is going to be fun to watch.
2
I don't know. The idea that Mormons aren't Christians kinda makes sense in the same way that Christians aren't Jews.
4
Jesus Fucking Christ, this gets Romney some sympathy votes. The real nutters weren't going to vote for him anyway.
6
Same dude also said Islam was "an evil religion." I don't really care what nuances differentiate a religion from a cult, but fer chrissake, the First Baptist Church of Dallas is barely either, they're a multimedia corporation.
8
@2 I wouldn't use the term "cult" (except insofar as most modern Christian denominations seem to be transitioning to cult status), but there's a reasonable argument that the LDS church is not "Christian" in the traditional sense. The LDS certainly do reject some central tenets of what we conventionally call "Christianity".
If one accepts the loosest possible definition of Christianity - the belief that Jesus was the Son of God - then the LDS are Christians. Start adding in any of the other basic tenets of Christianity - for instance, the belief in the Trinity - and they part ways. It would probably be more accurate (as I've heard it expressed elsewhere) to describe the LDS as a fourth Abrahamic faith, along with Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
That all said, yes, it's going to be fun to watch.
If one accepts the loosest possible definition of Christianity - the belief that Jesus was the Son of God - then the LDS are Christians. Start adding in any of the other basic tenets of Christianity - for instance, the belief in the Trinity - and they part ways. It would probably be more accurate (as I've heard it expressed elsewhere) to describe the LDS as a fourth Abrahamic faith, along with Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
That all said, yes, it's going to be fun to watch.
10
@2 and 8: Tell your Mormon friends that they aren't Christian and get ready for them to give you a smackdown.
As for me, I think it will be kind of funny if Romney gets the nomination, and we see the people who Andrew Sullivan terms Christianists try to decide which infidel they would rather vote for: the cult member or the secret Muslim. I suspect that what they'll ultimately do is stay home in vast numbers, resulting in a win for Obama.
As for me, I think it will be kind of funny if Romney gets the nomination, and we see the people who Andrew Sullivan terms Christianists try to decide which infidel they would rather vote for: the cult member or the secret Muslim. I suspect that what they'll ultimately do is stay home in vast numbers, resulting in a win for Obama.
11
As long as the BA's don't try to pretend that they are not also batshit crazy, I say let 'em all throw Santorum at each other until next November.
14
@10 - Yeah yeah yeah. Raised in the RLDS church myself. I've heard it all. I just think that the Mormon church(es) have a chip on their shoulder because they've spent a while developing the movement in a time when "not Christian" was about the meanest thing you could say about a person.
15
@13
I think most presidents fuck every now and then, and Mitt Romney usually looks pretty clean and freshly shampooed.
I think most presidents fuck every now and then, and Mitt Romney usually looks pretty clean and freshly shampooed.
16
Face it, for gays, most any of these candidates will be a disaster as president. Perry wants to be president more than any of the rest of them. He will stop at NOTHING to get the nomination.
17
@ 10, they can smack (or try to) all they want; @ 8 is absolutely correct, and nothing but a complete overhaul of Mormon dogma will change that.
18
It's fun to watch preachers weasel around saying outright "vote for this guy over this guy" so they can keep their own cult's tax exempt status.
19
This is the funny thing about religions: no matter how much they agree on the basics (e.g. Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah is the one-true-god), they can't help but bicker over the details. And once they start splitting hairs, there's simply no end to how far any particular sub-sub-sub denomination is willing to go when it comes to declaring themselves the one-true-true-true religion.
Which always reminds me of the old Emo Philips joke:
Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!"
He said, "Nobody loves me."
I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
He said, "Yes."
I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?"
He said, "A Christian."
I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?"
He said, "Protestant."
I said, "Me, too! What franchise?"
He said, "Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern
Liberal Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912."
I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.
Which always reminds me of the old Emo Philips joke:
Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!"
He said, "Nobody loves me."
I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
He said, "Yes."
I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?"
He said, "A Christian."
I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?"
He said, "Protestant."
I said, "Me, too! What franchise?"
He said, "Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern
Liberal Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912."
I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.
21
25 years ago when I studied this shit in college the LDS church was classified as a cult based on its (all world religions considered, relatively small) membership numbers, not its dogma. All "new" religions start out as cults, and Christianity has an almost two-century head start on Mormonism. Today's LDS membership numbers, I dunno, probably they've risen above cult status, perhaps in part because of a serious branding push to get "JESUS CHRIST" into the LDS name in significantly larger font treatment.
But for Mormons, there's no full stop after Jesus ... because then came Joseph Smith.
Back in the early '80s, televangelists were all the rage, using religion to advance a political agenda. And today? The religious right owns the GOP, and a pro-Mormon platform won't rally the base.
But for Mormons, there's no full stop after Jesus ... because then came Joseph Smith.
Back in the early '80s, televangelists were all the rage, using religion to advance a political agenda. And today? The religious right owns the GOP, and a pro-Mormon platform won't rally the base.
22
All organized religions are cults.
Mormans aren't Christians any more than Christians or Muslim are Jews.
But the bit about Christians supposing to hate non-Christians, I can't seem to find that bit in the Christian Bible?
Mormans aren't Christians any more than Christians or Muslim are Jews.
But the bit about Christians supposing to hate non-Christians, I can't seem to find that bit in the Christian Bible?
23
@12 You are right. I was raised Southern Baptist, and I was taught that Catholics weren't "real" Christians and that they worshiped idols (Virgin Mary and the Saints), and Mormonism was a cult. Also, Jehovah's Witnesses. Pretty much, any religion that wasn't Southern Baptist was worshiping Satan. Pretty good way to indoctrinate the kiddos, doncha think?
I now worship the one true lord: The Flying Spaghetti Monster. Praise be to his Noodly Appendage!
I now worship the one true lord: The Flying Spaghetti Monster. Praise be to his Noodly Appendage!
25
It's going to be at least as hard to elect a Mormon President as it was to elect a Catholic President when JFK was running.
26
When Romney wins in 2012, we are all going to be shocked. Seattle just doesn't understand the deep-seated racism in the fly-over states. It's there. I've seen it. And they'll vote for Romney even if he is a Mormon because he is white.
27
I suppose it would be career suicide for any mainstream journalist to ask a Mormon presidential candidate whether he really believes that magic underwear protects him, but it's an incredibly sad state of affairs when someone who will hold a position of such immense, globally significant power, someone who needs to make decisions based on science, believes in such superstitious claptrap.
I also wish someone would finally have the guts to ask some of the Republican hopefuls why they, as laypersons, think their views about homosexuality are more valid than the scientists and other specialists whose opinions contradict their own--after all, since no one person can be expert in everything, a president must take advice from people who are experts in areas he or she isn't. Non-experts who flatly deny the science on things like homosexuality and climate change clearly can't be relied upon to do so.
I also wish someone would finally have the guts to ask some of the Republican hopefuls why they, as laypersons, think their views about homosexuality are more valid than the scientists and other specialists whose opinions contradict their own--after all, since no one person can be expert in everything, a president must take advice from people who are experts in areas he or she isn't. Non-experts who flatly deny the science on things like homosexuality and climate change clearly can't be relied upon to do so.
28
I don't have an issue with the Mormon church in general except for that weird guy who started his own offshoot of the church so he could have sex with young girls. I will admit their history is a bit odd but I have to say I have never met a Mormon I didn't like.
29
I am an atheist, and even I know Mormons aren't Christians.
Mormons have the same relationship to Christians that Muslims do. Both Mormons and Muslims accept the teachings of the Christian Bible except that they add a little "yes, but..." and they both have a new prophet who gave them a whole new holy book that it is more important than the older scriptures that they also believe are the word of God, though they are not as important as the newer revelation.
..................................Judiasm
......................................|
.................................Christianity
............................../.................\
..........................Islam...............Mormons
I don't agree that Mormonism is a cult, but I can see why some Christians think so. I think of it more as a heresy that with time and enough followers became a daughter religion. In the 1800s I think you might have had a pretty good case for it being a cult, but it grew out of that stage if not when Joseph Smith died, at least when Brigham Young died.
Mormons have the same relationship to Christians that Muslims do. Both Mormons and Muslims accept the teachings of the Christian Bible except that they add a little "yes, but..." and they both have a new prophet who gave them a whole new holy book that it is more important than the older scriptures that they also believe are the word of God, though they are not as important as the newer revelation.
..................................Judiasm
......................................|
.................................Christianity
............................../.................\
..........................Islam...............Mormons
I don't agree that Mormonism is a cult, but I can see why some Christians think so. I think of it more as a heresy that with time and enough followers became a daughter religion. In the 1800s I think you might have had a pretty good case for it being a cult, but it grew out of that stage if not when Joseph Smith died, at least when Brigham Young died.
30
If Robert Jeffress had met Jesus Christ he wouldn't have thought He was a "christian" either.....
31
If you turn a political party in a church, as the Democrap Party essentially is, sectarianism will eventually emerge. In all its ugly, bigoted, negative manifestations. Secular Humanism in all its flavors- the trannies fighting the bis fighting the gays fighting the blacks fighting the.....
32
Wow.
Danny has interesting bedfellows in the Mormon-Hate Big Tent.
Danny, any fantasies about pumping santorum into Robert Jeffress?
Danny has interesting bedfellows in the Mormon-Hate Big Tent.
Danny, any fantasies about pumping santorum into Robert Jeffress?
33
From Pastor Jeffers's remarks: “Every true, born again follower of Christ ought to embrace a Christian over a non-Christian.”
But wait! Didn't Jesus have some parable? The good Samaritan or something? The heretic Samaritan helped the guy in the ditch after the two people of the 'proper' belief passed him by and wouldn't get involved. I thought Christians were supposed to embrace everybody.
But wait! Didn't Jesus have some parable? The good Samaritan or something? The heretic Samaritan helped the guy in the ditch after the two people of the 'proper' belief passed him by and wouldn't get involved. I thought Christians were supposed to embrace everybody.
34
My working definition of a religion is a cult with political power. The Mormons are a religion. Jim Jones' Peoples Church was a religion while it was based in the Bay Area and getting politicians elected. Once they decamped to Guyana, however...
36
It's a cult, by the most basic of definitions:
1 - It was started by one man with a magnetic personality, who made up all the rules and sacred texts for his followers. It was basically cover for his serial philandering and grifting.
2- Most importantly, it has, at its core, mysteries and secrets that can only be revealed to the initiated. The initiation process is essentially distorting the reality of the follower.
Religions that form organically, and have everything in the open (no matter how silly it may sound), are not cults.
1 - It was started by one man with a magnetic personality, who made up all the rules and sacred texts for his followers. It was basically cover for his serial philandering and grifting.
2- Most importantly, it has, at its core, mysteries and secrets that can only be revealed to the initiated. The initiation process is essentially distorting the reality of the follower.
Religions that form organically, and have everything in the open (no matter how silly it may sound), are not cults.
37
Religious people are all -- by definition -- suffering from delusions. And that makes other not-true things that much easier to believe. Once you've decided that evidence doesn't matter, you can believe anything.
38
When are the Mormons going to wise up? When you're a member of a minority group, you support social liberalism no matter how socially conservative your own beliefs are. Because social conservatives will eventually fuck with you, once they've dealt with the more "extreme" outliers.
Or do they think it an astounding coincidence that blacks and Jews consistently vote Democratic, despite being more socially conservative than the mainstream?
Or do they think it an astounding coincidence that blacks and Jews consistently vote Democratic, despite being more socially conservative than the mainstream?
39
It sucked when we were prosecuted for our non-traditional marriages in the past. Government had no business telling us who to marry.
40
Of course Mormonism is wrong. The only true religion is Leprechaunism. I've never actually seen a leprechaun, or found a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. I can't prove or disprove their existence, but we should only elect fellow leprechaun believers, so they can enact pro-leprechaun laws, like allowing leprechaun prayers in schools.
41
B-effin'-S! As a Catholic, I don't care to be told by Protestants that I'm not a real Christian, so I've a certain distaste for when the particular card is pulled on others. Mormonism might have started as a cult but it has since become as serious as any other type of Protestant Christianity. If they follow Christ, they count as Christians.
42
It's sort of comforting -- and also scary and depressing -- to know that right-wing Evangelicals don't just hate us gays. They hate EVERYONE who isn't them, even the other people who also hate us gays.
43
@37 Would you be so kind as to go back in time and prove that Christ didn't rise from the dead? Hm, no? Okay, let's go for something more accessible. Maybe you can read the Bible and tell me that there's absolutely nothing in there that could make a person think of Jesus with admiration and gratitude. Read it and tell me that there is nothing in the Bible or the Catholic tradition that is worth any loyalty from any kind of reasonable person. Once you've done that, you can tell me that I'm delusional.
44
@29: Islam isn't descended from Christianity. It's related to Judaism and Christianity, as well as having some similarities to Zoroastrianism, but it is not a direct descendant of Christianity the way Christianity is of Judaism.
45
This, my friends, is why Romney can't crack 25% in primary polls in the GOP. He'll do well out west, for certain, but it will be interesting to see what happens in the south. Southern Evangelicals will not vote for a Mormon, or at least not with any enthusiasm.
If you accept the Nicene Creed as the basic summary of Christian beliefs, then Mormon's are not a Christian denomination. Should that matter? No. But it does in the GOP primaries. As a liberal Democrat I wouldn't vote for Romney even if he were the only one on the ballot but if a liberal candidate that I liked came along and they happened to be Mormon, religion would not be an issue.
If you accept the Nicene Creed as the basic summary of Christian beliefs, then Mormon's are not a Christian denomination. Should that matter? No. But it does in the GOP primaries. As a liberal Democrat I wouldn't vote for Romney even if he were the only one on the ballot but if a liberal candidate that I liked came along and they happened to be Mormon, religion would not be an issue.
46
Some Christians use the word 'cult' to mean "consider themselves Christian but in my opinion aren't", rather than the more common, secular definition.
47
@30 and other folks,
Come on! Don't tell me you don't remember?!
JESUS WASN'T A CHRISTIAN!
Jesus was, and never wanted to be anything other than, a good Jew!
That is the sad contradiction of the antisemitic stance of some Christians. What they (most Christian heierarchies) don't like to point out is that Jesus was assassinated by the bureaucrats of the Temple, ie that Christians should be fighting against hypocrites that manipulate their religion to maintain their status above society in power and wealth. That and fight against occupation forces of imperial domination. Jesus would've been horrified at attacking peaceful, devout Jews.
Peace.
Come on! Don't tell me you don't remember?!
JESUS WASN'T A CHRISTIAN!
Jesus was, and never wanted to be anything other than, a good Jew!
That is the sad contradiction of the antisemitic stance of some Christians. What they (most Christian heierarchies) don't like to point out is that Jesus was assassinated by the bureaucrats of the Temple, ie that Christians should be fighting against hypocrites that manipulate their religion to maintain their status above society in power and wealth. That and fight against occupation forces of imperial domination. Jesus would've been horrified at attacking peaceful, devout Jews.
Peace.
48
@47 I think most here would be in agreeance that if Jesus himself (assuming that he existed) came back and ran to be the GOP's Presidential candidate, he would be boo'd off the stage.
50
@43 The Catholic tradition? Really? Indulgences? Thumbscrews? Buttfucking altar boys? That's some kind of tradition. Sure makes me feel all loyal inside. And when you assert something as far beyond the pale as rising from the dead, it's up to the people making that assertion to prove it conclusively. It's not up to the rest of us to prove he didn't. And until you do...I call delusional on you. And as far as Jesus' behavior, he was kind of a prick to his disciples. He certainly loved a good mock.
51
I don't really give a damn if Mormons are Christians or not. They are all cults and all I care about is how much they want to mess with the lives of non cult members. To that end the Baptist demonstrations, the Catholic Church, the LDS are all the same fucking thing to me. I don't care what flavor of invisible friend they pray to.
52
I feel weird taking a cue from Tolkien on this, but you cannot count on vile enemies (fundies and Mormons) to destroy each other. It's nice that they'll expend some of their energy attacking one another, but don't count on the result of one scoring a big hit off the other politically or culturally as a positive. The victor from that battle will simply emerge stronger and free from doubt.
Geeky? Hell yes. But is it that crazy to paint fundamentalism and Mormonism as power-hungry all-consuming evils?
Geeky? Hell yes. But is it that crazy to paint fundamentalism and Mormonism as power-hungry all-consuming evils?
53
I don't really care who thinks Mormons are Christians or not. That's not the issue. This "pastor" encouraged voters to choose Christians over those he deems non-Christians. When asked if, all things being equal, one should vote for an Evangelical over a Jewish candidate (the example used was Eric Cantor), he said "yes." Whatever your opinion about Mormonism (my views are certainly well known), this is bigotry, full stop.
54
Wait. So a pastor, of a church which is tax-free, is encouraging the church's members to vote for one particular Presidential candidate? And the church is keeping its tax-free status? Can someone explain that to me? How has that church not basically become a Rick Perry PAC?
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