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News & ArtsThursday, September 15, 2011
Religion Pat Robertson Urges Man to Divorce, Abandon Sick Wife
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 7:27 AM
On the same "700 Club" program today in which Pat Robertson said that Jews must convert to Christianity in order to enter Heaven, he also took on a question from a woman who was friends with a man whose wife is suffering from Alzheimer's Disease and has begun to date another woman and wanted to know what to do. Robertson's advice was to encourage the husband to divorce his wife with Alzheimer's because she was, for all intents and purposes, already dead. Co-host Terry Meeuwsen understandably wondered if that would not violate the "til death do you part" provision of the wedding vow, which Robertson just pretty much dismissed, saying "he certainly wouldn't put a guilt trip" on anyone who decided that divorce was the answer.
She didn't ask me, but if she had asked me... I would've advised that woman whose friend is seeing someone other than his stricken wife to butt the fuck out. And I would've advised that woman's friend, if he had asked me, to do what he needs to do to stay sane but not to divorce his dying wife. In other words, I would've advised him to do what he's already doing: seek companionship without abandoning to the care of a stranger who won't advocate for her the way he could and should during the final months or years of his wife's life. But Robertson? He urges divorce and leaving his wife in the care of complete strangers. Hm, I guess I'm just a conservative—more conservative than Pat Robertson—when it comes to divorce. In sickness and in health, until death do you part, etc., I take that shit seriously. (Other shit, meh, not so seriously.)
And I would advise Pat "I Hate Alzheimer's" Robertson to lay a guilt trip on God the next time the two men speak. God is the Creator of All Things, including Alzheimer's, and while a cure has so far eluded science, a cure for Alzheimer's can't possibly elude Him.
4
@3 - In the comments on another blog, someone was wondering whether this is an indication of Mrs. Robertson's faltering health. Keep an eye on that guy.
5
@2, don't bother with any unregistered comment that calls Dan "Danny", it's just a very persistent and stupid troll.
Breaking: Robertson is an asshole. Update at 11.
Breaking: Robertson is an asshole. Update at 11.
9
I came over here to try to get this to Dan's attention, only to find he had already written about it. If you want to listen to the clip go to: http://www.cbn.com/media/player/index.as…
I had the same impression Dan had, that Robertson advocates divorce because having sex outside of marriage would be worse. Pretty messed up values. Someone who is abandonned in a nursing home has a much worse life than someone who has a family member visiting often and advocating for them.
I had the same impression Dan had, that Robertson advocates divorce because having sex outside of marriage would be worse. Pretty messed up values. Someone who is abandonned in a nursing home has a much worse life than someone who has a family member visiting often and advocating for them.
10
Well, that certianly was the approach Newt Gingrich took with his wife who was dying with cancer. Praise the Lord!!!
11
Dan, thanks so much for the link to "A Place Called Agape." Those folks are so thoughtful that they can't get their name right in the header of the page.
LOL
LOL
13
Well, Obviously the wife was an immoral whore! Why else would God have stricken her with such a terrible disease! She deserves to have her husband leave her!
15
Let me get on my soapbox:
THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT IS SO FULL OF SHIT-THEIR EYES ARE BROWN
Now to get off my soapbox:
Does anyone, other than slack-jawed yokels actually listen to this crap?
THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT IS SO FULL OF SHIT-THEIR EYES ARE BROWN
Now to get off my soapbox:
Does anyone, other than slack-jawed yokels actually listen to this crap?
17
huh. i remember Jesus specifically condemning divorce in the sermon on the mount (while neglecting to say anything about homosexuality, incidentally).
18
and Jesus also said that it still counted as adultery to divorce your wife and get with another woman. so, even if you are a fundamentalist, Pat is telling the dude to commit an extra sin (divorce) even though it won't absolve him of the sin of adultery. so, even by his own warped theology, he is full of it.
19
Charles would side with Robertson on the grounds that an Alzheimer's patient can't return his love. Therefore his love is wasted.
22
Hah! I just knew you'd have something to say about this as soon as I heard about it, Dan. And I knew you've said several times before to stick with the sick spouse and care for them, and get your sexual needs met elsewhere. That has always seemed like the most ethical choice.
Robertson, as always, is an unmitigated asshole.
Robertson, as always, is an unmitigated asshole.
23
Actually, I've thought that Robertson had some sort of mental problem - aside from his regular insanity - for quite some time now. I used to email the 700 club fairly regularly, representing myself as a Christian Nurse, and asking them, (in a prayerful way) if Pat has had a senior evaluation. I never heard back from them.
24
So this lady is for all intents and purposes dead. But a blastocyst and Terri Schiavo are fully functioning living human beings. I don't understand conservative religious logic. Maybe I'm actually dead, but Jerry just hasn't told me yet.
25
Robertson is a freak.
But that is Danny's schtick, trolling for the most outrageous sideshows and setting up flimsy strawmen to knock over.
sure, it's a total waste of time but it pays the bills and keeps the fanboys occupied....
But that is Danny's schtick, trolling for the most outrageous sideshows and setting up flimsy strawmen to knock over.
sure, it's a total waste of time but it pays the bills and keeps the fanboys occupied....
26
Nah, Dan, you can't guilt-trip God. He invented Jews, remember? Only Italians and Chinese can come close to us in terms of guilt trips.
27
@23: Buwahahahahahaha! I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall when their earnest email reader got those missives.
28
Fuck you for making me defend Pat:
Caring for someone with severe Alzheimer's is no joke and I wouldn't want to judge someone whose spouse had early-onset. Keeping them at home often isn't ideal, first because they won't find any comfort (imagine not knowing who or where you are 100% of the time) and it can be dangerous.
My wife was talking to me about a new Alz clinic that is built as a circle, common area in the middle, rooms on the edge so that patients can't get lost (which they can easily do in normal hallways).
If you believe that extra-marital affairs are wrong (or just not for you) then you'd need to get a divorce to eventually move on with your life and possibly marry someone else. There is no indication of how long this spouse has been with the Alzheimer's victim in their condition, so no reason to think the husband was trying to escape 10 minutes into her first memory lapse.
I don't think Pat (and again FU for making me take his side) suggests that the person abandon financial responsibility.
A person with advanced Alz is pretty much someone in a waking coma. Many Alz patients die because their brain eventually forgets how to swallow. Does that sound like "living"? It isn't a Christopher Reeve situation where the think that makes the person your "husband" is still there, but just handicapped. Alz takes everything away except our biological shell.
If I died, was in a coma, or had advanced Alz I'd want my wife to (eventually) move on and find some joy with someone else.
Whew, now I can go back to hating Pat with the rest of you.
Caring for someone with severe Alzheimer's is no joke and I wouldn't want to judge someone whose spouse had early-onset. Keeping them at home often isn't ideal, first because they won't find any comfort (imagine not knowing who or where you are 100% of the time) and it can be dangerous.
My wife was talking to me about a new Alz clinic that is built as a circle, common area in the middle, rooms on the edge so that patients can't get lost (which they can easily do in normal hallways).
If you believe that extra-marital affairs are wrong (or just not for you) then you'd need to get a divorce to eventually move on with your life and possibly marry someone else. There is no indication of how long this spouse has been with the Alzheimer's victim in their condition, so no reason to think the husband was trying to escape 10 minutes into her first memory lapse.
I don't think Pat (and again FU for making me take his side) suggests that the person abandon financial responsibility.
A person with advanced Alz is pretty much someone in a waking coma. Many Alz patients die because their brain eventually forgets how to swallow. Does that sound like "living"? It isn't a Christopher Reeve situation where the think that makes the person your "husband" is still there, but just handicapped. Alz takes everything away except our biological shell.
If I died, was in a coma, or had advanced Alz I'd want my wife to (eventually) move on and find some joy with someone else.
Whew, now I can go back to hating Pat with the rest of you.
29
Remember, cancer is like death too. So Newt was covered. As a matter of fact, we're all gonna die sometime. So just completely disregard other human beings and do whatever the Hell you want. (That is the Republican mantra, after all.)
31
@3 Who is to say that he does not already HAVE Alzheimers, perhaps they (xians) all do to some level, it would explain their inability to reason.
32
@28 - I don't think Dan or anyone else on this thread is talking about end stage stuff, necessarily. There is a rhythm to life in these circumstances.
The whole point is not to abandon a love one that you can help and be an advocate for. As the spouse slips away, she will need care in an institution of some sort, but he can continue to visit and be a help, while still married, and get companionship elsewhere. At some point she will be "gone" and the marriage will become more superfluous, but some still might want to remain married.
Why get divorced unless there is someone else, specifically, to marry? And even then, the new spouse should recognized and appreciate continuing support to the very, very end - that new spouse would want the same thing.
The whole point is not to abandon a love one that you can help and be an advocate for. As the spouse slips away, she will need care in an institution of some sort, but he can continue to visit and be a help, while still married, and get companionship elsewhere. At some point she will be "gone" and the marriage will become more superfluous, but some still might want to remain married.
Why get divorced unless there is someone else, specifically, to marry? And even then, the new spouse should recognized and appreciate continuing support to the very, very end - that new spouse would want the same thing.
33
@28: I think the point isn't that it isn't a terrible burden for the caregiver but Pat's answer that it's better to divorce the spouse and walk away. His wife would probably want him to find joy. I want him to find joy. Custodial care is a completely reasonable option. But divorcing her and never looking back as Pat seems to suggest seems very unChristian and extreme.
or what @32 said. I think the issue here is his rigid thinking that remaining monogamous is somehow more important to marriage than continuing to support a spouse. If you can't be faithful then walk away?
or what @32 said. I think the issue here is his rigid thinking that remaining monogamous is somehow more important to marriage than continuing to support a spouse. If you can't be faithful then walk away?
34
I'm with debug@28, I just listened to the show, and I don't think Pat was terribly out of line. He certainly never says: "Divorce her and never see her again." He mentions divorce, but he also says: "I certainly wouldn't put a guilt trip on you if you decided you had to have companionship, as opposed to...."
I think he means that it's a tough situation, and getting companionship is a good idea. He may recommend divorce, first, but he says "make sure she has custodial care, and someone looking after her." He isn't advocating abandoning her financially and washing your hands of her. As he says, he has a lot of friends going through this, and it's really hard to go visit every day and hear your wife talking about her no-good husband who never comes to visit (the example he cited).
As for the person with the question, the friend of the husband, I think she should offer to go visit the Alzheimer's patient -- it couldn't be as heart-breaking for her as for the husband, so a true friend would offer to do that for the husband.
I think he means that it's a tough situation, and getting companionship is a good idea. He may recommend divorce, first, but he says "make sure she has custodial care, and someone looking after her." He isn't advocating abandoning her financially and washing your hands of her. As he says, he has a lot of friends going through this, and it's really hard to go visit every day and hear your wife talking about her no-good husband who never comes to visit (the example he cited).
As for the person with the question, the friend of the husband, I think she should offer to go visit the Alzheimer's patient -- it couldn't be as heart-breaking for her as for the husband, so a true friend would offer to do that for the husband.
35
I wonder if Pat would say the same think if it was the wife who was dating and the husband had Alzheimer's.
36
@28 In addition to what 32 and 33 said there could be several other reasons why the husband may not want a divorce even with the levels of Alzheimer's you describe. Perhaps his being married to her provides medical befits that she would otherwise not be entitled to if they divorce, and he would not be able to give her the care that he wants.
Either way, we know he has up to this point decided to stick by her so no one has any business telling him he should get a divorce if he really doesn't want to, well nobody but his current wife. I am less offended by what Pat said though then the judgmental "friend".
Either way, we know he has up to this point decided to stick by her so no one has any business telling him he should get a divorce if he really doesn't want to, well nobody but his current wife. I am less offended by what Pat said though then the judgmental "friend".
37
Here is a video of two men in a lifelong (40 years) committed relationship and who want to get married so that they can remember their ceremony before Alzheimers progresses.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8nTy0e8m…
I can't watch this without crying.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8nTy0e8m…
I can't watch this without crying.
38
@28 The wife's health care probably is dependent on you. You divorce her, she's tossed out on the county digs. That's ethical?
39
@32 Well, depends on what you mean by end stage. You can have severe Alz and still live for quite awhile.
The point I was trying to make, and @34 made a good recap/addition, was that people/Dan was jumping on Pat when, for once, he was being pretty reasonable about a really tough choice.
The man was already seeing somebody else and I don't think Dan (or most of us) would have a problem with that. The problem is the 'divorce' but the logic is that if you believe that fucking someone outside of a marriage is wrong, then you marry the new person.
Dan and many commenters took that to mean you abandon the Alz victim, which Pat, to his credit, is not advising as far as I can tell from the clip.
Divorce may be the wrong choice for this man due to extenuating circumstances like health insurance but if you blame Pat for not taking unknowns into account then most of Dan's advice will also be questionable. You give general advice based on the info that the letter-writer gives you.
Pat is scum, but what he is saying here, if we are going to be honest, isn't a good example of why he's scum.
Here are good examples:
http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/funny…
The point I was trying to make, and @34 made a good recap/addition, was that people/Dan was jumping on Pat when, for once, he was being pretty reasonable about a really tough choice.
The man was already seeing somebody else and I don't think Dan (or most of us) would have a problem with that. The problem is the 'divorce' but the logic is that if you believe that fucking someone outside of a marriage is wrong, then you marry the new person.
Dan and many commenters took that to mean you abandon the Alz victim, which Pat, to his credit, is not advising as far as I can tell from the clip.
Divorce may be the wrong choice for this man due to extenuating circumstances like health insurance but if you blame Pat for not taking unknowns into account then most of Dan's advice will also be questionable. You give general advice based on the info that the letter-writer gives you.
Pat is scum, but what he is saying here, if we are going to be honest, isn't a good example of why he's scum.
Here are good examples:
http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/funny…
40
One thing that strikes me is that, in a lot of cases, divorcing the spouse means you no longer automatically have power of attorney, etc. So you might no longer be in a position to make decisions about the person's care. It seems like the worst kind of abandonment to me to run that risk, having the person with Alzheimer's potentially become a ward of the state, or who-knows-what uncaring distant relative. As a spouse, they can still visit, they're still financially responsible for the person's care, they can still make decisions related to the person's welfare. If I were stricken with Alzheimer's, I would hope my husband would find love and companionship, but would not abandon me to the fates in that manner.
42
I guess that the nicest aspect of Robertson's approach, he failed to suggest that the guy seek alimony from the wife with Alzheimer's. That's cuz Pat is such a good xtian.
43
@40 - You said what I was going to say, only much better.
As someone who has watched two close family members descend into dementia and then pass away, I can't imagine suggesting a divorce as even a remote option. This is the tough time we sign up for when we sign those legal contracts (marriage). Yes, get companionship and compassion somewhere else (hell, you're gonna need it), but, for fucksake, keep your legal rights to make decisions for the person who, right now, can't figure out that the phone doesn't work when not charged, and, a few years from now won't even know who they are, let alone who you are.
As someone who has watched two close family members descend into dementia and then pass away, I can't imagine suggesting a divorce as even a remote option. This is the tough time we sign up for when we sign those legal contracts (marriage). Yes, get companionship and compassion somewhere else (hell, you're gonna need it), but, for fucksake, keep your legal rights to make decisions for the person who, right now, can't figure out that the phone doesn't work when not charged, and, a few years from now won't even know who they are, let alone who you are.
45
Oh, but if you can't have monogamy, you can have *serial* monogamy! Which is so much better, don'tchathink?
Riiiiiiight.
Riiiiiiight.
46
Robertson's advice smells like it is based on an anecdotal situation that he is personally familiar with: not necessarily his own marriage, but some wealthy supporter of his was in this position, and asked for and received Pat's blessing to divorce his spouse with Alzheimer's and marry some healthier, younger, blonder woman.
47
To Christians, anyone unsaved is dead. So per Pat Robertson,
it's OK to divorce them.
Oh, and per the Apostle Paul too, though on slightly different grounds:
you're not sure you'll be able to convert them, so no need to stick around.
No, really, it's all there. In the New Testament, too.
Silvio Levy
it's OK to divorce them.
Oh, and per the Apostle Paul too, though on slightly different grounds:
you're not sure you'll be able to convert them, so no need to stick around.
No, really, it's all there. In the New Testament, too.
Silvio Levy
48
Back in the late '70's my grandmother was caring for and married to my grandfather, who had had alzheimer's for nearly 20 years. He was in a home, and she was devoted to him- "Until death do us part". But she was also a very lonely woman, and also a very high-libido woman.
She met another man, whose wife was in the same shape as my grandfather, and they moved in together, for companionship and (probably) sex. The family was scandalized, BUT they minded their own business. In time, both their mates died and the two of them were married. In hindsight, it kept my grandmother SANE, which allowed her to be a MORE devoted spouse to Grandpa than she might otherwise have been.
Pat Robertson is an EVIL, EVIL man, and were there a Hell, he should burn there eternally. Alas, there is not.
She met another man, whose wife was in the same shape as my grandfather, and they moved in together, for companionship and (probably) sex. The family was scandalized, BUT they minded their own business. In time, both their mates died and the two of them were married. In hindsight, it kept my grandmother SANE, which allowed her to be a MORE devoted spouse to Grandpa than she might otherwise have been.
Pat Robertson is an EVIL, EVIL man, and were there a Hell, he should burn there eternally. Alas, there is not.
49
it took me years to realize that my father's need for companionship (or i can even say distraction) was a true medicine to keep him sane in the light of my mother's alzheimmer ( i was the care giver), but at that time i took it as a betrayal now i am more comfortable with the idea, because may be i resented the fact i did not have some one to comfort me and i was going insane ( which I did I am battling depression and suicidal thoughts since her death).
52
@49 - I'm so sorry. Have you found someone since her death to comfort you? Hoping you can take as good care of yourself as you did of your ailing mother...
53
Who are we to judge Pat for speaking his Heart? Opinions are like a$$holzes and I see alot between 1 and 51.
Maybe you should Pray for Pat.
Peace, Joy and Love!
Maybe you should Pray for Pat.
Peace, Joy and Love!
54
This is classic out of context reporting and slander. If you read the full text of the interview he's simply saying that divorce is better than cheating on your wife. If you disagree with that, fine, but he's not advocating for people to just drop everything at the first diagnosis of Alzheimer's.
56
What I find amusing is that OF COURSE it's fine for a rich old white guy to dump the wife and move on. If it had been a woman, a child, a person of color or a queer he'd have said that god just meant them to suffer and they should stick it out. Pat Robertson is a vile disgusting piece of work.
57
On a separate but related note:
If you divorce, can you stll be considered a person's legal proxy (without going through hoops, or can you designate yourself prior to the divorce)?
Alzeheimer's disease isn't an evil, it is a tragedy.
Peace.
If you divorce, can you stll be considered a person's legal proxy (without going through hoops, or can you designate yourself prior to the divorce)?
Alzeheimer's disease isn't an evil, it is a tragedy.
Peace.
58
My aunt and uncle couldn't have kids, so they went through all the loops and eventually adopted my two cousins (from government agencies) as infants. Before she was one year old, the doctors determined that one of my cousins had both cerebral palsy and severe mental retardation. The agency offered to take my cousin back, but my aunt and uncle loved her and raised her until she was 25. My aunt gave up her teaching career to raise her daughter, and my cousin eventually moved in to an adult group home.
Well, at age 50 my aunt went back to teaching elementary school, and she had four good years of working with little kids. Then, the students started to notice that she became forgetful and would misplace things. Eventually, my aunt was diagnosed with Alzheimers at age 55 (God's reward, eh?), and my uncle retired in order to care for her. She finally passed away at 63, and during the last couple years of her life my uncle found solace with a woman whose mother was suffering the same way (they met in the care facility where my aunt spent her last two years). I can only guess that Pat Robertson would spew some Christian drivel condemning my uncle.
My uncle married his new wife after my aunt passed away, and he is finally enjoying some rest and happiness, but only after taking care of my aunt for years.
So, Pat Robertson can shove his advice up his ass sideways. There are non-religious people out there who have endured decades of selfless toil and heartache, but who have always done the right thing. Divorcing a spouse who needs someone to make decisions for them is wrong, especially when the spouse is in the last stages of Alzheimers. Let them find happiness with someone else.
@49 My heart goes out to you, and I hope that you find the happiness that you deserve. It sounds like the worst part of your ordeal is over, and you should take a new hold on life. I truly hope you fight your depression thrive again.
More...
Well, at age 50 my aunt went back to teaching elementary school, and she had four good years of working with little kids. Then, the students started to notice that she became forgetful and would misplace things. Eventually, my aunt was diagnosed with Alzheimers at age 55 (God's reward, eh?), and my uncle retired in order to care for her. She finally passed away at 63, and during the last couple years of her life my uncle found solace with a woman whose mother was suffering the same way (they met in the care facility where my aunt spent her last two years). I can only guess that Pat Robertson would spew some Christian drivel condemning my uncle.
My uncle married his new wife after my aunt passed away, and he is finally enjoying some rest and happiness, but only after taking care of my aunt for years.
So, Pat Robertson can shove his advice up his ass sideways. There are non-religious people out there who have endured decades of selfless toil and heartache, but who have always done the right thing. Divorcing a spouse who needs someone to make decisions for them is wrong, especially when the spouse is in the last stages of Alzheimers. Let them find happiness with someone else.
@49 My heart goes out to you, and I hope that you find the happiness that you deserve. It sounds like the worst part of your ordeal is over, and you should take a new hold on life. I truly hope you fight your depression thrive again.
59
My first reaction was "what a d-bag!". But, coming from a fundamentalist background, I thought about what the Rev. Mr. Robertson said and felt pity for him.
"Losing" a loved one to a debilitating disease is horrible enough as it. The two most important things a caregiver must do is a. give all the care s/he can and b. stay healthy and sane. To have a caregiver divorce the spouse is lousy for two big reasons: a. It's a big, gut-wrenching move in and of itself and b. it's a symbolic cutting off of the old spouse, that s/he will matter less and less going forward.
This is a time when our concern for the emotional well-being of the primary affected couple should take precedence over preserving a sense of "order" in the religious community. I believe that most fundamentalists in this case would "not ask and not tell".
I don't see Robertson as evil, but tone-deaf, or at least having a bad day.
"Losing" a loved one to a debilitating disease is horrible enough as it. The two most important things a caregiver must do is a. give all the care s/he can and b. stay healthy and sane. To have a caregiver divorce the spouse is lousy for two big reasons: a. It's a big, gut-wrenching move in and of itself and b. it's a symbolic cutting off of the old spouse, that s/he will matter less and less going forward.
This is a time when our concern for the emotional well-being of the primary affected couple should take precedence over preserving a sense of "order" in the religious community. I believe that most fundamentalists in this case would "not ask and not tell".
I don't see Robertson as evil, but tone-deaf, or at least having a bad day.
60
…put another way, he came off less concerned about this couple's marriage than he was about the "institution" of marriage.
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