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News & ArtsTuesday, September 13, 2011
Politics Deep Thought
Posted by Goldy on Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 11:13 AM
Republican debate audiences cheer death. They cheer the death of death-row inmates, even the potentially innocent ones. And they cheer the death of the uninsured sick. And yet, Republicans are passionately "Pro-Life" when it comes to the unborn.
Huh. So how do you think Republicans would react to the prospect of an uninsured, unborn fetus, gestating inside the uterus of a death-row inmate?
2
That was an easy one. As they've demonstrated time and again, The GOP is only concerned with the pre-born. The post-born can all go fuck themselves so far as they're concerned - and ironically, that applies to many of their own followers.
3
Choice #1. That was too easy. The real question is: After the fetus is born, it is found that the baby needs immediate surgery or it will die. The father and rest of the family are working poor and do not have health insurance or other way to pay for the operation. What does the Republican Party do now?
4
Okay, so here's what you do: you strap the woman down to the gurney, right? And then you have a doctor there to perform the delivery BUT MAKE SURE HE DOESN'T PROVIDE ANY CARE TO THE MOTHER SHE IS BAD AND SHOULD NOT BE REWARDED FOR HER BAD DECISIONS only care for the precious precious baby.
Then as soon as the delivery is complete, bammo! You have a doctor there to oversee the execution.
Then you can throw the baby in the trash or something because once it's outside the womb it's just another bad seed welfare baby parasite, right? And we have too many of those already.
Then as soon as the delivery is complete, bammo! You have a doctor there to oversee the execution.
Then you can throw the baby in the trash or something because once it's outside the womb it's just another bad seed welfare baby parasite, right? And we have too many of those already.
5
I've always found the American version of "Pro-Life" to be a paradox. Those that are vehemently anti-abortion are usually also very much in favour of the death penalty. In contrast, those that are pro-choice are often against the death penalty.
American Catholics are the worst of the lot: they are anti-abortion & pro-capital punishment, yet Rome is clearly against both.
Just make up your morals as you go, folks, especially if you don't like the ones handed to you. Pretend that no one will notice and decide you have no integrity on any serious matter.
American Catholics are the worst of the lot: they are anti-abortion & pro-capital punishment, yet Rome is clearly against both.
Just make up your morals as you go, folks, especially if you don't like the ones handed to you. Pretend that no one will notice and decide you have no integrity on any serious matter.
6
@1: I stand by that post 100 percent. Republican immortality would be curse for them and for us. And besides, I've never claimed to be Pro-Life, so no hypocrisy there.
7
No fair, TRICK QUESTION!
Is she brown-skinned? Is the fetus an ANCHOR BABY or a TERROR BABY? Please! We need more information!
Is she brown-skinned? Is the fetus an ANCHOR BABY or a TERROR BABY? Please! We need more information!
11
Everything I came here to say was said at @4. But we somehow need to get the government out of our prison birth-murders.
12
If the mother is an illegal alien, then the answer is: bring the fetus to term, kill the mother, campaign on being pro-life and pro-death and [drumroll please] deport the baby after the election claiming it's not a citzen. I guess it's redundant to say "repeal Obamacare".
15
Well, we certainly know it cannot be #3. If cognitive dissonance was a real problem for "conservatives*" their heads would have exploded a very long time ago.
* Authoritarians, of course.
* Authoritarians, of course.
16
Deliver the baby, kill the mother, put the father in jail, let Michele Bachmann raise the kid, then bomb some brown people. Simple.
17
This is actually not a purely theoretical question.
The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (CCPR) of which the US is a signatory states:
Article 6(5) "Sentence of death shall not be imposed for crimes committed by persons below eighteen years of age and shall not be carried out on pregnant women."
Also in 2000 the Republicans sponsored and passed the "Innocent Child Protection Act" which specifically prevented pregnant women being eligible for the death penalty.
So no, a pregnant woman wouldn't be executed, and it appears R's at least used to support that position.
That being said, I suspect a mentally disabled 15-year-old might be able to be executed in a few states. So I'm not sure 'federal laws' and 'treaties' really matter here.
The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (CCPR) of which the US is a signatory states:
Article 6(5) "Sentence of death shall not be imposed for crimes committed by persons below eighteen years of age and shall not be carried out on pregnant women."
Also in 2000 the Republicans sponsored and passed the "Innocent Child Protection Act" which specifically prevented pregnant women being eligible for the death penalty.
So no, a pregnant woman wouldn't be executed, and it appears R's at least used to support that position.
That being said, I suspect a mentally disabled 15-year-old might be able to be executed in a few states. So I'm not sure 'federal laws' and 'treaties' really matter here.
18
Ahhh... but as soon as the baby is born the woman is no longer pregnant...
Execute to your hearts' content!
Execute to your hearts' content!
19
Since he's clearly confused about it, I'd offer trying to teach Goldstein the difference between truth and lying, but I don't have the time or energy to spend the 4 or 6 months it might take.
For the rational among you...
Oh, sorry, I forgot to whom I was writing.
Never mind.
For the rational among you...
Oh, sorry, I forgot to whom I was writing.
Never mind.
20
@5
For the record there really isn't any cognitive dissonance involved with imposing the death penalty on an adult who comitts crimes that the law deems as meriting this punishment, and not wanting the murder of an innocent unborn child for his or her mothers convenience.
Or didn't you understand that?
For the record there really isn't any cognitive dissonance involved with imposing the death penalty on an adult who comitts crimes that the law deems as meriting this punishment, and not wanting the murder of an innocent unborn child for his or her mothers convenience.
Or didn't you understand that?
22
The Democrats need to use this bit of savagery expressed by the Republicans in that debate hall in their ads for 2012. They better not weenie out either.
23
Anyone who voted for Option 3 on the poll is kidding themselves. The entire GOP platform is illogical and they haven't blown up yet.
24
@ 20, the cognitive dissonance comes from the fact that you apparently value the murderer's life less. This in contradiction to what your faith teaches.
You use an interesting construct here. The same law that deems some crimes appropriately punishable by death also says that women have a right to privacy. (It exists in constitutional jurisprudence, which has all the weight of the Constitution itself.) So your argument is fatally flawed, because you appeal to the law and rail against it simultaneously.
You use an interesting construct here. The same law that deems some crimes appropriately punishable by death also says that women have a right to privacy. (It exists in constitutional jurisprudence, which has all the weight of the Constitution itself.) So your argument is fatally flawed, because you appeal to the law and rail against it simultaneously.
25
Simple kill the woman as soon as the child is born - she's no longer pregnant - and enslave the child in a randian garment factory in new bangladesh (formerly known as mer'rkuh) or brothel in the Mariannas Islands.
26
@3, nailed it! At what age does "personal responsibility" kick in for Republicans? 21 years old? 18? 16? 13? 10? 5? 2?
27
I'm just wondering where people who are so big on Original Sin and being Saved get off claiming that all those unborn children are "innocent." They have not accepted Christ in their hearts as Lord and Savior and so they are as black and hellbound as the worst of murderers, right? (Or is original sin carried in baptismal waters, or something? Because if it is you should really clean out those fonts or start baptising with distilled.)
28
So you admit SB that the issue ISN'T all black-and-white? That there are nuances of difference? Good, because if that's the case you shouldn't be calling yourself "pro-life", since clearly you're not taking the position that "ALL life is sacred", but rather one that states, "SOME life is more sacred than OTHER life".
30
@20, half the people executed are innocent. They can't afford a defense and in some parts of Texas the judge picks their public defender. You are assuming that only guilty people are killed, but this is a third world country.
31
It is the entire premise of the TV show "Raising Hope". Well, the comedy of execution without any of the political implications...
33
@general
For the record, I was simply noting that cognitive dissonance wasn't at play in comparing execution of murderers with execution of innocent unborn children for the heinous crime of being inconvenient to their mother. One has moral and legal responsibility for their actions and dies with due process of law. The other doesn't. (Since you folks seem easily confused by this, the second category is the unborn baby.)
However, both from a cost and a justice and morality standpoint I don't happen to see where the death penalty is justifiable. We spend millions of dollars and many months of court time killing someone who could much more cheaply be incarcerated for life. And if an error is made and the person executed I'm unaware of any remedy that can be applied. Capping that, commanding citizens not to kill or we'll kill you is a bit morally ambiguous to me.
@30
Cite please. (Hint- you can't find one, since your number is BS. There are major problems with the death penalty, including how disproportionately it's applied to minorities. But saying that half the folks on death row are there by malice of the prosecutor isn't just stupid, it's calumny.)
Also, please share with us your extensive experiences travelling and living abroad that lead you to the conclusion that the United States is a third world country. I'd love to swap stories about travel in North Africa and South America and how they compare to any place in the US.
For the record, I was simply noting that cognitive dissonance wasn't at play in comparing execution of murderers with execution of innocent unborn children for the heinous crime of being inconvenient to their mother. One has moral and legal responsibility for their actions and dies with due process of law. The other doesn't. (Since you folks seem easily confused by this, the second category is the unborn baby.)
However, both from a cost and a justice and morality standpoint I don't happen to see where the death penalty is justifiable. We spend millions of dollars and many months of court time killing someone who could much more cheaply be incarcerated for life. And if an error is made and the person executed I'm unaware of any remedy that can be applied. Capping that, commanding citizens not to kill or we'll kill you is a bit morally ambiguous to me.
@30
Cite please. (Hint- you can't find one, since your number is BS. There are major problems with the death penalty, including how disproportionately it's applied to minorities. But saying that half the folks on death row are there by malice of the prosecutor isn't just stupid, it's calumny.)
Also, please share with us your extensive experiences travelling and living abroad that lead you to the conclusion that the United States is a third world country. I'd love to swap stories about travel in North Africa and South America and how they compare to any place in the US.
35
@33 - The issue I think that does spark cognitive dissonance is the professed belief by the pro life that all life is sacred. If all life is sacred then the death penalty is just as abominable as abortion. Really, the issues of death penalty and abortion have nothing to do with reason, philosophy or even theology. They are nothing more than shibboleths of southern republicanism. They are characteristic beliefs one holds because one is of a certain group. Belief does not predicate thought.
"Professor Gross concluded that the false conviction rate for death row inmates has ranged from 2.3 percent to 5 percent...."
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/25/us/25b…
I would agree with you that the cited number of 50% of all death row inmates being innocent is wildly exaggerated. However, I would probably believe that often the reason people get the death penalty instead of life imprisonment has a lot to do with malice of the prosecution, poor representation, and subconscious racial cues. Your response would suggest you agree.
"Professor Gross concluded that the false conviction rate for death row inmates has ranged from 2.3 percent to 5 percent...."
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/25/us/25b…
I would agree with you that the cited number of 50% of all death row inmates being innocent is wildly exaggerated. However, I would probably believe that often the reason people get the death penalty instead of life imprisonment has a lot to do with malice of the prosecution, poor representation, and subconscious racial cues. Your response would suggest you agree.
36
@33, I don't think it's calumny when you admit it yourself that it exists and debate what the percentage of innocent people executed is. The estimate is 1 in 7, which would be ridiculously high if you were pro-life and pro-death penalty.
37
Please tell me that filth like "seattleblues" has NOT produced children. Because if it has, then that would be a crime against humanity.
38
@36 - You should cite where that number comes from. I'm seeing numbers significantly lower. Even still, if 5% of all people executed are innocent, that is still a terrible amount of people killed for crimes they haven't committed.
39
As flamed elsewhere in these forums, I think there's a large contingent of people just itching to see bad things happen to people who deserve them, and that as a consequence they are both unashamed of their enjoyment and readily find reasons why the suffering deserve it.
I think it's evil, and I wish neither to foster it in people nor give them the pleasure of revelling in others' pain...puritanical, I know, but once you suppress the manifest and manifold pleasures of slaves ownership it's a slippery slope.
I think it's evil, and I wish neither to foster it in people nor give them the pleasure of revelling in others' pain...puritanical, I know, but once you suppress the manifest and manifold pleasures of slaves ownership it's a slippery slope.
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