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Thursday, September 1, 2011

Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: A Friendly Amendment to CPOS Rule

Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 5:25 PM

Loved the advice to LAH this week, Dan, but I think a little point of clarification is in order. You answer was good, but it allowed too much wiggle room for future Mr. LAHs. I've bolded my suggested changes:

Okay, LAH, here’s a little something I recently wrote that sums up my position on outside sexual relationships: “Cheating is permissible when it amounts to the least worst option, i.e., it is allowed for someone who has made a monogamous commitment and isn’t getting any at home (sick or disabled spouse, or withholding-without-cause spouse (after good faith efforts have made to clearly inform withholding without cause spouse of needs (and their importance) and making good faith efforts resolve needs consensually) and divorce isn’t an option (sick or disabled spouse, or withholding-without-cause-spouse-who-can’t-be-divorced-for-some-karma-imperiling-reason-or-other) and the sex on the side makes it possible for the cheater to stay married and stay sane. (An exception can be made for a married person with a kink that his or her spouse can’t/won’t accommodate, so long as the kink can be taken care of safely and discreetly.)”

Keep up the good work!

E.

Thanks, E., and your proposed amendment is hereby adopted. And in a somewhat startling development... the gang at Jezebel liked my advice for LAH. And anyone seeking a clarification about what exactly I mean by "sick or disabled spouse"—a hangnail doesn't count, kids—should go read Girl With a Pearl Earing's comment on that post over at Jezebel. (Look for the comment that begins, "He is usually pretty good about illness...") She pretty much nails it.

And because "Savage Love" is about people... people helping people... a helpful bonus letter after the jump...

I wrote to a while ago and you printed my letter. I'm "Help In Virginia," the male Sugar Baby to an HIV+ submissive Sugar Daddy who was asking about things to safely do with an HIV positive guy. Hey there!

Anyway, I read this week's column about Please Help Me looking for, essentially, a Sugar Baby. He mentions AshleyMadison.com and SugarDaddy.com and moans of his bad luck. I, being a successful (albeit male) Sugar Baby, recommend the old standby Craigslist and SeekingArrangement.com. SA is where I have found all of my success as a Sugar Baby and it is very easy to use, although it does cost money. But, being a potential Sugar Daddy, that shouldn't be a problem for Please Help Me.

I would advise him to list out EXACTLY who he is and EXACTLY what he's looking for in his profile. And he needs to understand that getting the Sugar Baby of his dreams will take time, a few dates that won't lead anywhere, and a little frustration. But if he sticks with it—and is ready to fork out some dough/gifts—he will find the right lady for him!

Love you, Dan.

Helped In Virginia

Love you too, HIV.

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Comments (23) RSS

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Dan, as long as you're amending, can you please stop all the "stay sane" phrasing?
The implication that doing without sexually drives people insane is fairly offensive and especially demeaning to those who are celibate by circumstance, not choice.
Thanks.

Posted by nocutename on September 1, 2011 at 5:49 PM

Girl-with-a-pearl-earring posted several times. I believe this is the comment you mean:

http://jezebel.com/5836595/non+monogamy-…

(you still have to scroll a bit, but it's this comment-on-a-comment)

Posted by smoakes on September 1, 2011 at 5:49 PM

It shocked me how many Jezebel commentators insisted that it is NEVER acceptable to cheat in a monogamous relationship, even when one partner is permanently disabled and unable to have sex of any kind. It's one thing to give up sex for a year or two during a particularly difficult time, but it's another thing to give up sex entirely at age 30, 40, or 60 for the rest of your life.

Is it better to have a loving partner who can provide caretaking divorce a disabled spouse because it's "cheating" to look outside a celibate (not monogamous) marriage for occasional sex? yes, being permanently disabled or ill would be terrible. but it's not fair to demand that a partner give up sex entirely in order to fulfill a commitment that s/he never actually consented to.

Posted by brokephilosopher on September 1, 2011 at 6:38 PM

I'm curious if John & Elizabeth Edwards were part of that mix (disabled, sick and out of the game sexually partner quietly assenting to polite cheating.) Or was John Edwards STILL just a dick for running because there is no way the American public will tolerate that behavior once it has been discovered.

Posted by sue b on September 1, 2011 at 7:36 PM

@1, I've noticed a lot more mental illness awareness comments in the last six months or so--here and elsewhere. I understand the desire to not use terms such as 'crazy' or 'nuts' or 'insane'. However, these terms have had their purpose in colloquial conversation. We know what Dan means; these terms are a form of shorthand. I think we would feel their absence if we didn't have decent alternatives. What sort of terms would you suggest?

Posted by clashfan on September 1, 2011 at 8:12 PM

@1 We can't ignore that celibate by circumstance is not the norm. And there is a norm, a majority if you will. Your average person will more than likely say that they don't know what they'd do if they were never intimately touched by another human being. A tiny portion of the population knows that you can survive, it's very, very hard, but not impossible. But I don't think it's out of line for Dan to acknowledge that's not the norm.

Posted by capricorn44 on September 1, 2011 at 8:24 PM

I do think the cheating on a disabled spouse needs more boundaries than Dan has stated. If the spouse is disabled in such a way that they can not be aware of the cheating (i.e. dementia, Alzheimer's, being in a coma, then I have no problem. But if the disabled spouse is physically incapable of sex, but is aware that the other spouse is cheating there are other issues involved. I can think of nothing worse than knowing that your spouse is staying with you only because of pity or need. That they aren't with you because they love you AND that they are finding solace with someone else when you are unable to achieve your own solace.

My mother had MS and died when I was still a child. To my knowledge my father never cheated. However I also know that my mother was totally aware of how much my father resented her for being ill. She was frustrated and angry and HURTING that she physically could not do many things, including being the kind of sexual partner my father wanted. (I know this, because my Dad told my stepmother and she thought I needed to know this, why I have no idea.) If my father had cheated under those circumstances it would have destroyed even more of my mother's psychological health. Perhaps Dan should also advise that if a spouse is disabled cheating is only all right if the healthy partner can do everything to make certain the ill partner NEVER, EVER finds out about the cheating. Anything else is being cruel to someone who is already losing their lives to illness.

Posted by percysowner on September 1, 2011 at 8:25 PM

The jump? The bonus letter?

Posted by AnotherMother on September 1, 2011 at 8:34 PM

@7: Maybe your father would have resented caring for your mother less if he had someone to share physical intimacy on the side.
@1: I think cases like percysowner describes are where a discrete affair helps the care-taking partner to stay sane, that is to be more balanced and not blame the disabled person.
People can go without sex and be very happy for a long time. But especially during stressful times, the physical intimacy of sex helps with dealing (even more than masturbation, which gives release without physical intimacy).

Posted by migrationist on September 1, 2011 at 10:01 PM

@7 Wait what? Are you honestly saying that someone who chooses to stay with a permanently disabled spouse as a caretaker must not love them anymore if they can't stay celibate? I'm sorry, someone who didn't care anymore wouldn't stay.

I've seen what caring for a spouse who was ill for years can do to someone, the stress and frustration and then the guilt over feeling relieved after they pass away. It's a horrible situation to be in and no one stays who doesn't truly love their spouse. If discreetly getting their sexual needs fulfilled helps them keep going then that's what they need to do.

Posted by Noadi

on September 1, 2011 at 10:01 PM

@4 John Edwards cheating came at a time when Elizabeth Edwards was traveling the country campaigning for him during a presidential campaign. She hardly qualifies as the disabled spouse who is unable to provide sexual satisfaction. So, yes, he's STILL a dick.

Posted by ML77 on September 1, 2011 at 10:31 PM

@7: Dan didn't say anything about not loving one's partner.

Posted by James Hutchings on September 2, 2011 at 12:13 AM

"Sugar Baby" *puke*

Posted by cyranothe2nd on September 2, 2011 at 6:29 AM

Sorry, still not going to knowingly click on a Jezebel link. I've never forgiven them for that guest post about how consent is dumb because French women love being sexually harrassed. Their complimenting you on saying something closer to the status quo does not impress me. It's sad because the site used to be so good and now it's mostly recaps of "Toddlers and Tiaras."

Posted by Belle Starr on September 2, 2011 at 9:30 AM

Seems like regardless of what Dan says, most people are just looking for ways to justify cheating: "She would leave me if she found out, so I'm justified in not telling her, for the good of the children."

Posted by EricaP on September 2, 2011 at 12:07 PM

@5: Fuck ideas about things like "mental health privilege". Some things are just undesirable and should be viewed as such (I know in my case, bipolar disorder is not a good thing, and I am nowhere near as functional as I am otherwise when suffering from an attack; people shouldn't take me as seriously or respect my opinion as much when I'm depressed, because I'm not fucking thinking in rational or reasonable terms), and mental illness is one of those. That said, celibacy is not a cause for insanity of any sort, since lack of sex is an actual, reasonable stimulus for otherwise-unusual behavior. This is more a problem of framing with respect to both human behavior generally and sexual activity specifically than anything to do with mental illness. Anyone who goes on a killing spree due to lack of sex was already insane; someone who "cheats" due to lack of sex isn't insane, sie's engaging in predictable, rational behavior.

@6: No, I think you're all just a bunch of whiny scrota. Plenty of people (including me sometimes) who are actively interested in sexual activity go months or years without sex and don't find it hard to not be assholes or crazy as a result. I also know a number of serial monogamists who will not break up with partners even when they really want to unless they have another strong possibility lined up because they can't stand not dating/fucking someone; i think this is a seriously dysfunctional behavior pattern, normative or not.

@7: The issue there was that your dad resented your mom for being ill, nothing to do with cheating, except that perhaps the requirement that he not have partnered sex any more contributed to the resentment.

Posted by John Horstman on September 2, 2011 at 2:03 PM

@16, sounds like you agree that using terms like 'stay sane' when talking about sexual intimacy isn't appropriate. I repeat my question to you: How do we frame that part of Dan's advice? What terms do you suggest?

Posted by clashfan on September 2, 2011 at 3:45 PM

@17 - "minimally happy"? "non-suicidal"? "be able to cope"?

Posted by EricaP on September 2, 2011 at 6:56 PM

@16 EXCUSE ME? How on earth do you get that out of what I wrote?

Posted by capricorn44 on September 2, 2011 at 7:36 PM

@10: I thoroughly agree. I've also seen the appalling body and soul toll that full-time caring for a terminally ill spouse can take on a person. It's an experience that can damage and even destroy a person's own physical and mental health, so I'd personally find it appropriate to talk about 'staying sane', or if that phrasing sounds insensitive to some, 'caring for one's own mental health', or maybe just 'surviving'. As someone pointed out on the Jezebel thread, and as I sadly know from personal experience, not all caregivers do survive.

To the folk saying "I can go a year without sex, why would it be harder for someone caring for a dying spouse?" - we should also factor in that a person under that much pressure might likely have more of a need than usual for outlets to relax, pretty much because they might relieve that pressure. 'Outlets' here might well mean other things as well as sex - e.g. getting a night out with friends every once in a while? But if discreet sex (within the parameters Dan outlined) is what helps the caregiver carry on and get through, I'm all for the rest of us giving them a bit of fucking compassion and leeway there.

Posted by brideoffrankenstein on September 3, 2011 at 3:36 AM

@ EricaP...

I want to apologize for the dumbass comment I made toward you the other day. I was talking out of my ass, totally failed at making a coherent point, and really should have just STFU. I do like your comments, they're usuallly pretty insightful (unlike mine). Again, I;m sorry.

----{-@

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Andrew

Posted by drewl on September 3, 2011 at 4:34 AM

@21 no worries

Posted by EricaP on September 3, 2011 at 9:27 AM

Dan, I'd like to thank you for opening my eyes over the years. I'm seeing a married man who hasn't had sex with his wife for over ten years. We also share a kink and we are both very happy together. For my own balance I am also seeing someone else occasionally. It works for me, and it's a situation I never would have been in without your column.

Posted by Marrena on September 4, 2011 at 4:28 AM