Slog
News & ArtsThursday, August 25, 2011
News Pit Polling
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 2:53 PM
Slog's pit apologists might want to dink over to Australia's Courier Mail and vote in this aptly headlined poll:
But first take a moment to read the story about a pit bull that attacked a woman and her two little girls in their own home. Such nice dogs, so good with children, but some pit owners are a problem... and if you can't tell which pits have problem owners until their dogs are tearing your children apart in front of your eyes, well, that's just something we're going to have to live with because discriminating against or between dogs is exactly like racism.
2
I don't think it's the owners who are the problem. It's more likely the breeders who are the problem. Much the same as it was with GSDs and Doberman Pinschers in the past. Nearly all the maulings I've read about where people who had adopted their dogs. I don't have the answer, I'm just saying. Let's at least treat the subject with a little bit of knowledge instead of both sides using inflamed rhetoric.
3
the solution is not owning/allowing dogs that are willing and able to randomly attack and kill in short order
6
It's only because of media bias that 7 in 8 Australians want to ban pit bulls. If only the reported every dog bite, we'd have a fair idea of the situation. Pit bull bites are no different than Yorkshire Terrier bites.
9
Let's just say that Pitbulls are not-user friendly dogs. Unless your Cesar Millan, you shouldn't have one.
11
"99.9% of any one dog's DNA is exactly the same as any other dog. "
Humans and chimps share 95%+ plus of their DNA too. A little bit goes a long ways
Humans and chimps share 95%+ plus of their DNA too. A little bit goes a long ways
12
I read "SAVAGE ATTACK" and thought: "I wish Dan got the guts and the chance and kicked [i.e.] Santorum's ass to his homophobic heaven."
Then kept reading.
Here, many children have been attacked, some killed, by pit bulls last years. This has lead to some kind of discrimination against these dogs. Not too many people realize their "owners" are the real problem.The governments and legislators through time have promised to legislate a real "responsible pet 'owning' law", but as many things -and because of chilean people's bad memory- it's forgotten in a month. Banning this kind of pets is not the solution to this problem.
Then kept reading.
Here, many children have been attacked, some killed, by pit bulls last years. This has lead to some kind of discrimination against these dogs. Not too many people realize their "owners" are the real problem.The governments and legislators through time have promised to legislate a real "responsible pet 'owning' law", but as many things -and because of chilean people's bad memory- it's forgotten in a month. Banning this kind of pets is not the solution to this problem.
17
"Pit bull bites are no different than Yorkshire Terrier bites."
Can someone find one example of a little girl being mauled to death by a Yorkshire Terrier? Anyone? I suppose this might be true and if so I'm sure there's a wealth of examples of children, pregnant women, etc. being mauled to death Yorkies.
Can someone find one example of a little girl being mauled to death by a Yorkshire Terrier? Anyone? I suppose this might be true and if so I'm sure there's a wealth of examples of children, pregnant women, etc. being mauled to death Yorkies.
18
Why don't you spend your time getting handguns banned? They are far more dangerous than your average Pit Bull.
20
"99.9% of any one dog's DNA is exactly the same as any other dog."
And 98.9% of human DNA is exactly the same as chimp DNA so I guess there's no real difference between humans and chimps! Hurray!
And 98.9% of human DNA is exactly the same as chimp DNA so I guess there's no real difference between humans and chimps! Hurray!
21
"Why don't you spend your time getting handguns banned? They are far more dangerous than your average Pit Bull. "
because guns are both in the Constitution and do not have wills independent of their owners, neither of which is true for pit bulls
because guns are both in the Constitution and do not have wills independent of their owners, neither of which is true for pit bulls
22
@19 After reading it again I'm sure you're right although IMO it's bad parody b/c it's way to close to some of the arguments I've heard. I.e. I've actually heard people say that a Yorkie can be just as dangerous as a pit if it's got a bad owner.
23
I dunno, I kinda get where Dan is coming from in a way, and I actually really like pit bulls. However, after seeing a site with a rather long comment thread in defense of pit bulls, my head almost exploded. The argument was being supported very strenuously was that the dog that killed that pregnant woman not too long ago hadn't attacked her and had blood on him only because he had tried to help her after she fell and hit her head, thereby causing the massive amount of blood that was everywhere. It was utterly delusional. As a lifelong dog trainer, I think they are a highly intelligent and trainable breed that is actually quite good with children in the right (supervised) circumstances. But really, I kind of see them like handguns - idiots shouldn't be allowed to own them and I don't want one of my own because of the associated liability.
My dad always used to tell me animals are unpredictable. And that's really not the case. You can usually predict how an animal will react - it's anticipating the scenario that causes the reaction that's impossible.
Ban them? Kind of excessive, I think. But there should be an added licensing requirement and additional hoops before someone can own one. In the wrong hands, these are deadly dogs.
My dad always used to tell me animals are unpredictable. And that's really not the case. You can usually predict how an animal will react - it's anticipating the scenario that causes the reaction that's impossible.
Ban them? Kind of excessive, I think. But there should be an added licensing requirement and additional hoops before someone can own one. In the wrong hands, these are deadly dogs.
24
@22 true. Apologists also point out that breeds like dachshunds, chihuahua, and Jack Russells bite more often and think that's some kind of proof of something
25
@18 Totally. I was just reading the other day about a handgun that jumped a fence and killed 2 kids while it's owner was taking a nap.
26
@20 the latest estimates of shared chimp/human DNA is closer to 93%, but your point still stands. Serious aggression is probably caused by only a handful of genes, and if the dog has 15,000 genes (wild-ass guess) then that means a 1500-gene difference at 99.9%.
27
"Ban them? Kind of excessive, I think. But there should be an added licensing requirement and additional hoops before someone can own one."
This. I also think there needs to be a law that if your dog kills someone then you, as the owner, will be held liable as if you were the one that killed the person. If it really is just an issue of bad owners then this would get those bad owners off of the street.
This. I also think there needs to be a law that if your dog kills someone then you, as the owner, will be held liable as if you were the one that killed the person. If it really is just an issue of bad owners then this would get those bad owners off of the street.
28
Dan, I don't think anyone is arguing that these stories of yours are just horrific and dogs that attack are bad dogs. We get it. Really. Sigh.
Sometimes the owners are to blame, sometimes a dog's history before the owner adopts it is the problem, sometimes illness (such as rabies) plays a role, and sometimes a bad dog is just a bad dog. I would firmly agree that we need strict breeding laws with regards to pit bulls to protect them from being bred to fight and to protect the public from dogs that have been trained to be aggressive but outright banning the entire breed is simply not fair to responsible owners of perfectly well behaved pitbulls and it just isn't pratical.
By the way, do you remember that story in the news the other day about a woman rescuing two dogs from a fire? They were pit bulls but the story referred to them as Staffordshire Terriers. Hmmm, I wonder why...
Sometimes the owners are to blame, sometimes a dog's history before the owner adopts it is the problem, sometimes illness (such as rabies) plays a role, and sometimes a bad dog is just a bad dog. I would firmly agree that we need strict breeding laws with regards to pit bulls to protect them from being bred to fight and to protect the public from dogs that have been trained to be aggressive but outright banning the entire breed is simply not fair to responsible owners of perfectly well behaved pitbulls and it just isn't pratical.
By the way, do you remember that story in the news the other day about a woman rescuing two dogs from a fire? They were pit bulls but the story referred to them as Staffordshire Terriers. Hmmm, I wonder why...
30
Interesting that it was a "pit bull cross". I just read this today:
http://www.aspcapro.org/blog/2011/08/if-…
Terrible how the owner of the dog did nothing to help. "Mrs Ancaito claimed the dog's owners did not help her despite her pleas." But it's definitely not the owner's fault... right?
I think this is an interesting, sane take on dog attacks:
http://badrap-blog.blogspot.com/2011/08/…
Even if banning pit bulls got rid of them, which it wouldn't (look at how well banning heroine worked), some other type of dog would become the breed most used for fighting, most abused, most likely to bite. I've seen some scary fucking Great Danes at the shelter, for example.
http://www.aspcapro.org/blog/2011/08/if-…
Terrible how the owner of the dog did nothing to help. "Mrs Ancaito claimed the dog's owners did not help her despite her pleas." But it's definitely not the owner's fault... right?
I think this is an interesting, sane take on dog attacks:
http://badrap-blog.blogspot.com/2011/08/…
Even if banning pit bulls got rid of them, which it wouldn't (look at how well banning heroine worked), some other type of dog would become the breed most used for fighting, most abused, most likely to bite. I've seen some scary fucking Great Danes at the shelter, for example.
32
"outright banning the entire breed is simply not fair to responsible owners of perfectly well behaved pitbulls"
Who fucking cares?
"and it just isn't pratical."
Why not? There's all kinds of animals that are illegal to own.
Who fucking cares?
"and it just isn't pratical."
Why not? There's all kinds of animals that are illegal to own.
33
@ 17, I was facetiously restating an anti-ban argument that was on SLOG before. Yes, someone actually brought up the high incidence of Yorkie bites as some kind of counter-argument to Dan's posts.
34
*Pouf*!! There goes another little bit of your credibility, Dan. For someone who (A) hates dogs and (B) knows nothing about them, you sure do spend a lot of time mindlessly promoting the least effective solution to the problem of attacks by dogs against humans.
And given that you're responsible for your own dog losing an eye, you're hardly one to talk about problem dog owners. You really need to shut the fuck up about the entire subject.
And given that you're responsible for your own dog losing an eye, you're hardly one to talk about problem dog owners. You really need to shut the fuck up about the entire subject.
35
"Even if banning pit bulls got rid of them, which it wouldn't (look at how well banning heroine worked)"
lmao are you serious
lmao are you serious
36
Australia also bans violent video games. What's your point?
(Honestly, I think all the media hype actually makes the problem worse, because it increases the thrill in the paint-eating morons who love the idea of having a dangerous animal as a pet.)
@2-- It's a combination, really. Dumbasses want pit bulls for stupid reasons and breeders consider them a target audience worth catering to. It's like how some people in the UK actually argue that you shouldn't ban them from using dogs to hunt foxes because they claim -- like it's a badge of pride -- that the dogs have been bred for such a specific purpose (chasing and killing small, brightly-colored animals) for so long they can never be pets and would have to be destroyed. And according to them, the only alternative is to keep using them to hunt foxes.
Keep in mind we're living in a world where people openly cheer Michael Vick.
That said, there are breeders out there who are deliberately trying to breed pit bulls to downplay the breed's stereotypical violent tendencies. My mother had a couple of pit bulls from one and had no behavioral problems whatsoever.
(Honestly, I think all the media hype actually makes the problem worse, because it increases the thrill in the paint-eating morons who love the idea of having a dangerous animal as a pet.)
@2-- It's a combination, really. Dumbasses want pit bulls for stupid reasons and breeders consider them a target audience worth catering to. It's like how some people in the UK actually argue that you shouldn't ban them from using dogs to hunt foxes because they claim -- like it's a badge of pride -- that the dogs have been bred for such a specific purpose (chasing and killing small, brightly-colored animals) for so long they can never be pets and would have to be destroyed. And according to them, the only alternative is to keep using them to hunt foxes.
Keep in mind we're living in a world where people openly cheer Michael Vick.
That said, there are breeders out there who are deliberately trying to breed pit bulls to downplay the breed's stereotypical violent tendencies. My mother had a couple of pit bulls from one and had no behavioral problems whatsoever.
37
Pit bulls are more likely to be assholes than other dogs. That's about the strongest factually correct statement you can make. By the way, my sweet little dog (who melts into jelly at the first sign of conflict) is half pit bull. Does this make her half evil? Somebody please tell me before she murders everyone I know.
38
I think what would make a hell of a lot more sense is to license and regulate breeders of *all* types of dogs, outlaw 24/7 tethering and generally strengthen animal control and, especially, abuse laws. Give the enforcement officers the tools they need to be effective.
39
Hm... I was in Seattle the day my dog lost an eye on Vashon Island. But thank you for bringing up Stinker, my son's ferocious 6 lb toy poodle. It allows me to state, for the record, that I don't hate dogs. I am a dog owner. A one-eyed, deaf, brain-damaged dog owner.
No, wait. That didn't come out right.
No, wait. That didn't come out right.
40
in before meaningless personal anecdote using the word "sweet"
"By the way, my sweet little dog (who melts into jelly at the first sign of conflict) is half pit bull."
yesssssssssssss
"By the way, my sweet little dog (who melts into jelly at the first sign of conflict) is half pit bull."
yesssssssssssss
41
@33 Yeah, I got it. I remember the earlier post about the Yorkie bites and for a second I thought that you might be the same poster which is why I didn't track it as parody at first.
43
You can listen to the story of Stinker's accident in this TAL piece...
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-ar…
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-ar…
44
#39: My mistake, I misremembered and I apologize.
But that doesn't change the fact that you know nothing about dogs, that you're promoting the least effective solution to dog attacks, or that you really should shut up about the whole topic.
But that doesn't change the fact that you know nothing about dogs, that you're promoting the least effective solution to dog attacks, or that you really should shut up about the whole topic.
46
"But only pit bulls owned by irresponsible people who mistreat them ever savagely rip people to shreds in a fit of unpredictable bloodlust. By the way, my pit bull is a rescue dog, and he's the sweetest thing ever."
47
Are there any other breeds on your google feed or only Pits? I Own an American Pit and considering his breed he was actually attacked by a Lab, 27 stitches later and almost a thousand bucks the Lab owner blamed my dog who was across the street in a harness and on a leash when their dog had none of the above. After filling out a police report I had to register MY DOG as aggressive, seriously What the FUCK, and it is because articles like this.
So Stranger if you are only going to post Pit Bull stories post every dog attack, journalism does report both sides? Right?
So Stranger if you are only going to post Pit Bull stories post every dog attack, journalism does report both sides? Right?
48
#36: Thanks, that was a good expansion on what I was trying to get at. Good breeding practices have really helped with GSDs and Dobermans, but it has been a longish process. And well bred pit bulls of all types can be good dogs. It seems like people don't really understand the importance of good breeding practices and selecting for traits.
49
Also, maybe some perspective would be good here. There are around 75 million dogs in the U.S. and 32 fatal dog attacks per year. I'm not saying it's not tragic when it happens, but it's nowhere near the scale of the other atrocities in the world we could be getting our panties in a bunch about.
50
Just the other day I was in my kitchen and noticed a fucking pit bull was running around on my deck. He then explored the back yard. The same back yard where my two- and three-year old daughters play (but thankfully were inside at the time).
I don't know who the owner is and whether he or she is a "good owner" or a "bad owner." I'm pretty sure he or she thinks the dog is awesome and would never hurt a child. Of course, letting the thing go wandering off their property off-leash is against the law. And since all I know is that the damn thing probably weighs three times as much as my three-year-old, I can't let my kids into my own fucking backyard without looking over my goddamned shoulder.
I agree with Dan 100% on this subject.
I don't know who the owner is and whether he or she is a "good owner" or a "bad owner." I'm pretty sure he or she thinks the dog is awesome and would never hurt a child. Of course, letting the thing go wandering off their property off-leash is against the law. And since all I know is that the damn thing probably weighs three times as much as my three-year-old, I can't let my kids into my own fucking backyard without looking over my goddamned shoulder.
I agree with Dan 100% on this subject.
51
#45, no, because by promoting ineffective solutions you're not only not helping the situation, you may actually be making it worse, such as by encouraging your readers to freep this poll.
As I've pointed out before, you're perpetuating exactly the same kind of credulous hackery in your posts about pit bulls as those anti-marijuana articles you so love to hate. Promoting the fallacy that marijuana is a gateway drug is no less idiotic than promoting the fallacy that the solution to dog attacks is breed bans. I know you like to heap scorn on those who say that owners are the problem, but breed bans are utterly ineffective. If owners were required to show that they have the skills and physical ability to properly care for their chosen breeds, and if owners were held fully criminally responsible for attacks by their dogs, and if irresponsible breeding were curtailed through effective laws, there would be a lot fewer attacks by all breeds. You'd know all this if you bothered to do even the most cursory of research on the subject rather than just periodically posting links to whatever comes through on your Google alert for "pit bull attack" and making idiotic remarks like "discriminating against or between dogs is exactly like racism."
As I've pointed out before, you're perpetuating exactly the same kind of credulous hackery in your posts about pit bulls as those anti-marijuana articles you so love to hate. Promoting the fallacy that marijuana is a gateway drug is no less idiotic than promoting the fallacy that the solution to dog attacks is breed bans. I know you like to heap scorn on those who say that owners are the problem, but breed bans are utterly ineffective. If owners were required to show that they have the skills and physical ability to properly care for their chosen breeds, and if owners were held fully criminally responsible for attacks by their dogs, and if irresponsible breeding were curtailed through effective laws, there would be a lot fewer attacks by all breeds. You'd know all this if you bothered to do even the most cursory of research on the subject rather than just periodically posting links to whatever comes through on your Google alert for "pit bull attack" and making idiotic remarks like "discriminating against or between dogs is exactly like racism."
52
I do not support breed specific legislation. I do support serious penalties and fines (and possibly jail time) for the owners of dogs that attack.
Don't blame the breed, blame the deed. Pit bulls aren't the only strong dog that can cause serious damage to a human.
Labs, Golden Retrievers, Standard Poodles, German Shepherds, and other breeds are all equally capable of causing serious harm.
Even if you believe, as Dan clearly does, that Pitbulls and Pitbull-esque dogs are clearly more likely to commit an act of violence against a human, it is unfair to the victim of the attack to judge the attack not by the damage caused but by the breed that caused it. Laws should be made to protect and defend victims and potential victims, not to punish one group more than another for the same crime.
Don't blame the breed, blame the deed. Pit bulls aren't the only strong dog that can cause serious damage to a human.
Labs, Golden Retrievers, Standard Poodles, German Shepherds, and other breeds are all equally capable of causing serious harm.
Even if you believe, as Dan clearly does, that Pitbulls and Pitbull-esque dogs are clearly more likely to commit an act of violence against a human, it is unfair to the victim of the attack to judge the attack not by the damage caused but by the breed that caused it. Laws should be made to protect and defend victims and potential victims, not to punish one group more than another for the same crime.
53
Oh oh, but Dan! The owner of that dog in Australia is 'devastated', and the dog had totally never done anything like that before. Plus, the owner of the dog had a "Beware of the Dog" sign, so, you know, he was, like, aware... Yeah, yeah, the attack happened inside the little girl's house, but that's just a technicality.
Did you read all the way to the end of the article and see those nine other incidents of attacks in recent years? Complete coincidence, every one of them.
Did you read all the way to the end of the article and see those nine other incidents of attacks in recent years? Complete coincidence, every one of them.
54
@51. Well, if next time that roving pit bull I referred to in post 50 comes into my yard he happens to sink his jaws into my two-year-old and doesn't let go, I sure do hope that the owner is held criminally responsible for her likely death. If I only knew the owner would be held fully responsible, I'd feel a lot better about the possibility.
55
I'm sure glad public policy is decided by Interweb cyber-polls. (Wait, nevermind. I forgot, only Slog polls are legally binding.)
56
@54, I hope you called Animal Control to report the lose dog. Following leash laws is pretty much dog ownership 101 and the dog should be impounded and the owner, fined.
57
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fat…
Over 50% of the deaths caused by dogs are by Pitbulls/mixes. If you look at the ages of the people killed as well it seems as if Pits, Rotts, and Huskies are some of the only dogs that can kill an able bodied person. A majority of the deaths are children under the age of 5, or elderly people. This indicates a population of people that shouldn't own, or be around these kind of dogs for their own safety and that of the children. I feel like people should take responsibility for their environments, and since so many people can't seem to understand the dangers to owning these dogs, maybe they should be banned to prevent needless deaths.
Over 50% of the deaths caused by dogs are by Pitbulls/mixes. If you look at the ages of the people killed as well it seems as if Pits, Rotts, and Huskies are some of the only dogs that can kill an able bodied person. A majority of the deaths are children under the age of 5, or elderly people. This indicates a population of people that shouldn't own, or be around these kind of dogs for their own safety and that of the children. I feel like people should take responsibility for their environments, and since so many people can't seem to understand the dangers to owning these dogs, maybe they should be banned to prevent needless deaths.
58
"Promoting the fallacy that marijuana is a gateway drug is no less idiotic than promoting the fallacy that the solution to dog attacks is breed bans."
You keep spouting this as if it's fact without a shred of evidence. It's working wonderfully in Denver and Council Bluffs, for example.
"Pit bulls aren't the only strong dog that can cause serious damage to a human."
But they're the only ones that consistently DO, in numbers far greater than their proportion of all dogs.
You keep spouting this as if it's fact without a shred of evidence. It's working wonderfully in Denver and Council Bluffs, for example.
"Pit bulls aren't the only strong dog that can cause serious damage to a human."
But they're the only ones that consistently DO, in numbers far greater than their proportion of all dogs.
59
OK, so we ban pittbulls. Now what? Is the world safe now? Are all the pitbulls gone? Do you propose a massive cull?
I just don't see how banning them will do much.
There seems to be a bit of hysteria when it comes to pitbulls. Yes, they have the potential to be dangerous as do other dogs, people, animals etc..
How many people die each year due to pitbulls? car accidents? gun accidents (correct- guns don't have a mind of thier own but they are not always used mindfully). In the grand scheme, is this really a big problem or just someones (ahem) pet problem?
I just don't see how banning them will do much.
There seems to be a bit of hysteria when it comes to pitbulls. Yes, they have the potential to be dangerous as do other dogs, people, animals etc..
How many people die each year due to pitbulls? car accidents? gun accidents (correct- guns don't have a mind of thier own but they are not always used mindfully). In the grand scheme, is this really a big problem or just someones (ahem) pet problem?
61
@56 I sure did. I called 911 who put me through to Animal Control. Fuck whoever owns that dog. Disgusting.
Also, let me note that while I'd be annoyed with any off-leash dog in my backyard--the backyard of a family who chooses not to own a dog--if said dog had been a, say, beagle, I'd be annoyed because I don't want dog shit in my yard. Would I be seriously concerned about the safety of my daughters? No, of course not. And why not? Because I'm a reasonable human being with a grasp of reality.
Also, let me note that while I'd be annoyed with any off-leash dog in my backyard--the backyard of a family who chooses not to own a dog--if said dog had been a, say, beagle, I'd be annoyed because I don't want dog shit in my yard. Would I be seriously concerned about the safety of my daughters? No, of course not. And why not? Because I'm a reasonable human being with a grasp of reality.
62
"OK, so we ban pittbulls. Now what? Is the world safe now?"
Since addressing one problem doesn't solve other, larger problems, we should ignore that problem!
Since addressing one problem doesn't solve other, larger problems, we should ignore that problem!
63
54: had one of those people who allowed their dogs to roam freely with tragic consequences been sent to jail for a long, long time and been slapped with a very, very large fine, that dog wouldn't have been roving in your yard in the first place.
64
@63 Ya think? Ya think that heavy criminal fines and incarceration would deter every pit bull owner? Just like the death penalty has deterred all murderers?
65
Dan, you're telling people to go out and hate something for the way that it was born (and/or raised) at the same time as telling people that they're not allowed to hate you for being born the way you were. This isn't politics. You don't gain credibility with hypocrisy.
66
@61- Well, then you'd have a false sense of security if you're not worried about *any* strange dog biting one of your kids. True, a smaller breed may not kill your child as easily as a large one, but it can still do a lot of damage. I was attacked by the neighbor's cocker spaniel as a child. All dogs can bite, and all dogs *will* bite, given right circumstances.
67
"Pit bull bites are no different than Yorkshire Terrier bites."
Oh. Jeeze. I was gonna stay out this bullshit until I read nonsense like this.
Okay. Sure there are a number of negative myths attributed to the pitbull breed but the disingenuousness of the pathological pit promoters just goes to far sometimes.
Yes. Pits have a jaw PSI in line with most doges their size - average of like around 235Lbs. Dogs like Rots have more PSI.
But PSI is only small part of what contributes to the trauma of any given breeds bite.
Pits are, pound for pound, tremendously strong, athletic and tenacious. It's what makes them so attractive in so many ways. Including for dog fighting - which is more about their inherent and FACTUALLY documented capability for dog aggression.
Comparing a Pit bit with a Yorkie bite completely disqualifies you from any remotely honest or intelligent conversation ever.
In fact lets test your fucking idiotic comment if you have the balls.
Let's get an agressive fucked-up tortured 40lb Pit bull to attack you.
And then let's get a an uncommonly aggressive 7lb Yorkie to attack you.
And we'll compare the emergency room visits, shall we?
Any takers?
Any?
Yeah. That's what I thought.
Oh. Jeeze. I was gonna stay out this bullshit until I read nonsense like this.
Okay. Sure there are a number of negative myths attributed to the pitbull breed but the disingenuousness of the pathological pit promoters just goes to far sometimes.
Yes. Pits have a jaw PSI in line with most doges their size - average of like around 235Lbs. Dogs like Rots have more PSI.
But PSI is only small part of what contributes to the trauma of any given breeds bite.
Pits are, pound for pound, tremendously strong, athletic and tenacious. It's what makes them so attractive in so many ways. Including for dog fighting - which is more about their inherent and FACTUALLY documented capability for dog aggression.
Comparing a Pit bit with a Yorkie bite completely disqualifies you from any remotely honest or intelligent conversation ever.
In fact lets test your fucking idiotic comment if you have the balls.
Let's get an agressive fucked-up tortured 40lb Pit bull to attack you.
And then let's get a an uncommonly aggressive 7lb Yorkie to attack you.
And we'll compare the emergency room visits, shall we?
Any takers?
Any?
Yeah. That's what I thought.
69
@50 would you be worried if it was any other dog? Lets say a White man walks in your back yard would you call the police? Now lets say a black man walks through your yard YOU would call the police. Racist piece of shit.
70
@64,
Sure, Dingo's proposal is far from fool-proof. But I spent a few years in DC where pits WERE banned, and... (do I really need to say it?) there's a bit of a pitbull problem there too.
Sure, Dingo's proposal is far from fool-proof. But I spent a few years in DC where pits WERE banned, and... (do I really need to say it?) there's a bit of a pitbull problem there too.
71
i love dogs. i used to have a business boarding them, helped start an animal rescue in a needful town, have several close family members that own pits and generally like them.
my unpopular belief is that we should just stop having dogs. we have plenty already. no breeding of any kind. mandatory neuter/spay for all born. betcha there would still be plenty of illegals to go around if you happen to have the psychological disorder of needing to own one. that goes double for cats.
my unpopular belief is that we should just stop having dogs. we have plenty already. no breeding of any kind. mandatory neuter/spay for all born. betcha there would still be plenty of illegals to go around if you happen to have the psychological disorder of needing to own one. that goes double for cats.
72
@71
Let's ban birds next. because. You know. Avian flu.
And we HAVE to ban owning fish since thousands of fish species are on the brink of extinction.
And then lizards. Because, let's face it, owning lizards is just plain dumb.
Oh. And cars... let's ban cars. They are waaaaay more dangerous that pitbulls, guns, and Michelle Bachmann combined.
And then let's ban the internet! Because internet servers farms are contributing in a major way to greenhouse gases and taking away vital energy infrastructure and strategic mineral resources from more important uses.
Then Computers. Ban 'em. Because those strategic mineral I mentioned. yeah. they are mined by children and virtual slave labor and the mining of them generally fuck up ecosystems.
And then let's ban technological civilization because clearly and provably it's quickly destroying ALL life on the only planet in the universe that we know - for sure - support life.
And while we're discussing throughly unworkable and completely idiotic ideas let's ban human beings form the universe because they can't seem to entertain lick of fucking common sense.
"Unpopular" belief was an understatement.
Let's ban birds next. because. You know. Avian flu.
And we HAVE to ban owning fish since thousands of fish species are on the brink of extinction.
And then lizards. Because, let's face it, owning lizards is just plain dumb.
Oh. And cars... let's ban cars. They are waaaaay more dangerous that pitbulls, guns, and Michelle Bachmann combined.
And then let's ban the internet! Because internet servers farms are contributing in a major way to greenhouse gases and taking away vital energy infrastructure and strategic mineral resources from more important uses.
Then Computers. Ban 'em. Because those strategic mineral I mentioned. yeah. they are mined by children and virtual slave labor and the mining of them generally fuck up ecosystems.
And then let's ban technological civilization because clearly and provably it's quickly destroying ALL life on the only planet in the universe that we know - for sure - support life.
And while we're discussing throughly unworkable and completely idiotic ideas let's ban human beings form the universe because they can't seem to entertain lick of fucking common sense.
"Unpopular" belief was an understatement.
73
@69 I am going to assume that you are being sarcastic by calling me racist for saying that I was more concerned about a pit bull illegally being in my fucking backyard on Tuesday. And by the way, to respond to your moronic argument. Any stranger walking through my yard would be of concern.
In response to the more rational person who correctly pointed out that all breeds can do damage. You are right. I was just making the point that certain breeds off leash in my yard would piss me off, others, like pit bulls, are of more serious concern. And if any dog bit my kid, of course there would be a serious problem. I'm thinking it highly less likely that my kids would die in the jaws of a cocker spaniel.
And let me make another distinction: had it been a cocker spaniel illegally on the deck, I would have walked outside, checked the dogs tags (or it had any), open the garden door and shoo the dog out. With a strange pit bull, I'd be an idiot to walk it the door and thus was trapped in my home until either, it left of it's own accord or animal control removed it.
In response to the more rational person who correctly pointed out that all breeds can do damage. You are right. I was just making the point that certain breeds off leash in my yard would piss me off, others, like pit bulls, are of more serious concern. And if any dog bit my kid, of course there would be a serious problem. I'm thinking it highly less likely that my kids would die in the jaws of a cocker spaniel.
And let me make another distinction: had it been a cocker spaniel illegally on the deck, I would have walked outside, checked the dogs tags (or it had any), open the garden door and shoo the dog out. With a strange pit bull, I'd be an idiot to walk it the door and thus was trapped in my home until either, it left of it's own accord or animal control removed it.
74
Pit bulls are fine. It's people who want to own non-rescue pits that should be banned. There's no reason to want a dog with a reputation for violence that's intimately involved in the dogfighting scene.
Goddamn, Dan, you are such a troll sometimes. You're worse than Charles when you're in a mood.
@71, "the psychological disorder of needing to own [a dog]"
So... disagreeing with your personal preference is a "psychological disorder"? You do realize what an incredibly asinine thing that is to say, right? Regardless of whatever point you were making?
Goddamn, Dan, you are such a troll sometimes. You're worse than Charles when you're in a mood.
@71, "the psychological disorder of needing to own [a dog]"
So... disagreeing with your personal preference is a "psychological disorder"? You do realize what an incredibly asinine thing that is to say, right? Regardless of whatever point you were making?
76
@ 65 - You are totally right.
I wish to high heaven that The Gays would stop being bred for viciousness! The only way we're going to have any safe Gays at all is if we start to breed them for gentleness...
But as long as people want to have big, vicious potentially lethal Gays around, well........
I wish to high heaven that The Gays would stop being bred for viciousness! The only way we're going to have any safe Gays at all is if we start to breed them for gentleness...
But as long as people want to have big, vicious potentially lethal Gays around, well........
77
@74: "It's people who want to own non-rescue pits that should be banned."
Aren't rescue pits MORE likely to have been mistreated? And therefore, aren't they MORE likely to have behavior problems?
Or maybe you think good intentions can never possibly lead to bad outcomes.
Aren't rescue pits MORE likely to have been mistreated? And therefore, aren't they MORE likely to have behavior problems?
Or maybe you think good intentions can never possibly lead to bad outcomes.
78
Ya know, they banned pit bulls in Miami-Dade County......
BACK IN 1986, FOR CHRISSAKES!!!!!!!!!!!
82
Anyone notice that Seattle and King County enacted a breed ban on wolf hybrids in 1994, and it was perfectly effective?
83
Also a well placed ban. I had a wolf hybrid when I was a kid, and while it was perfectly nice to me, it attacked a friend of mine when we were horsing around, thinking he was attacking me. My dog "ran away" immediately after that (since my folks did the right thing) and I didn't put two and two together until years later. When I did, I wasn't mad at mom and dad because I'M A RATIONAL PERSON
84
People who cannot control their dogs should not own them. Banning the dog that PEOPLE CREATED is not the problem. Just don't let weak ass people who cannot defend themselves own one. If you cower, the dog will lose control. My American Bulldog is twice the size of a pitbull, and I can put her ass down in 2 seconds if I need to. And, she knows it too, even though I am a woman. A really tough woman, but still a woman. I think that 50% of dog owners should not be allowed to have dogs. Of any breed. As a child I was attacked by a toy poodle, and one of those 100-lb dogs that look like a golden retriever. Both of those dog owners did nothing to get their dogs off of me. The 100-lb one put me in the hospital. And, it was not a pit bull! Dan, stick to what you know, You don't know JACK SHIT about dogs. So leave it alone, k?
85
While I don't think all pits are bad, I will say I was bitten by a pit bull, which required stitches, a few years ago. My family always owned dogs, including a doberman, and I've never been so much as snapped at before that. This is the only dog I've ever been bitten by. So it's not all propaganda. And while I was arguing with my sister when this happened, I didn't even realize the dog was there and wasn't being aggressive towards it at all.
86
God damn! First the drill baby drill article and now more of this pitbull shit? Jesus- the Stranger has hit a new low today.
87
@85: And I've only been bitten by two dogs in my entire life: a samoyed and a pomeranian. Do we need to ban all spitze?
Honestly, Dan, you should know by now that prohibition never actually solves the problem. All breed bans will do is a) ensure that idiots will now turn to buying from breeders willing to breed and sell these dogs illegally, and b) move media hysteria onto whatever new, legal breed takes pitbulls' place as the Evil Dog. Like German Shepherds and Rottweilers before them, there will be yet another breed bred to pander to that subsection of people who want to own aggressive dogs. You can play whack-a-mole with breed bans all you like, but that does absolutely nothing to address the core issue.
Honestly, Dan, you should know by now that prohibition never actually solves the problem. All breed bans will do is a) ensure that idiots will now turn to buying from breeders willing to breed and sell these dogs illegally, and b) move media hysteria onto whatever new, legal breed takes pitbulls' place as the Evil Dog. Like German Shepherds and Rottweilers before them, there will be yet another breed bred to pander to that subsection of people who want to own aggressive dogs. You can play whack-a-mole with breed bans all you like, but that does absolutely nothing to address the core issue.
88
Dogs aren't people. Also, I hate weeds. Am I bad person for hating them for what they are? I mean they're living things and all!
90
"And I've only been bitten by two dogs in my entire life: a samoyed and a pomeranian. Do we need to ban all spitze?"
Here's the thing - NO ONE GIVES A FUCK IF POMERANIANS BITE PEOPLE
Here's the thing - NO ONE GIVES A FUCK IF POMERANIANS BITE PEOPLE
92
@seattlebound. your response just proves you are racist even if it is toward dogs.
Any breed unleashed, tagged and uncontrolled can pose a danger but yet you are willing to confront something you assume is safe not knowing anything about it yet you will lock yourself inside and hide your pearls seeing something that I am sure you only read about in the Stranger.
So I still at this point will consider you a racist.
Any breed unleashed, tagged and uncontrolled can pose a danger but yet you are willing to confront something you assume is safe not knowing anything about it yet you will lock yourself inside and hide your pearls seeing something that I am sure you only read about in the Stranger.
So I still at this point will consider you a racist.
94
@84 and Dingo:
So only 'dog experts' can have an opinion on dogs? Who is in charge of accrediting that status--and can I see your Dog Expert Licenses, please?
I guess we'd better leave politics to the political scientists, and alcohol policy to AA, and the National Office of Economic Planning can set all wages and prices, and....
Dan is free to have an opinion, and express it, on any fucking issue he likes. If you don't like it, move back to Russia, ya damn commies....
So only 'dog experts' can have an opinion on dogs? Who is in charge of accrediting that status--and can I see your Dog Expert Licenses, please?
I guess we'd better leave politics to the political scientists, and alcohol policy to AA, and the National Office of Economic Planning can set all wages and prices, and....
Dan is free to have an opinion, and express it, on any fucking issue he likes. If you don't like it, move back to Russia, ya damn commies....
96
@93 no, he's not. Seattlebound seems like a racist. Seattlebound would have gone out to his deck to check the (white) dog's collar, but not the (black) pitbull's. The Cocker would probably bite him and all of his precious kids.
http://indigorescue.org/?page_id=83
Sorry to burst y'all's bubble with science, goldy style.
http://indigorescue.org/?page_id=83
Sorry to burst y'all's bubble with science, goldy style.
97
@93 I refer you to comment 25: "Apologists also point out that breeds like dachshunds, chihuahua, and Jack Russells bite more often and think that's some kind of proof of something "
99
@98 it's proof that those little fuckers are hardly "nice" and not good with children! Yet Dan owns one, keeps it around his child and stabs its eye out. Did you read his post? Are you a racist too?
101
I have a pit and when he was a puppy several Stranger employees had a great time playing with him at the park but maybe they were drunk or shoplifting so who am I to judge. I just know that it is not fair to judge something for being born a certain way.
102
I don't understand people who value dogs more than the lives of children. It's really stunning. I mean-- what exactly is wrong with limiting where animals that are known to KILL CHILDREN are allowed to live?
i mean really...
i mean really...
105
@103 racist? Are you afraid that if I was to have a child they would maybe accept that a Pit Bull is not a bad thing and that maybe people jump to conclusions based on what they read and not research. Are you afraid that someone will have an opinion different than yours that may be qualified by something other than Dan Savage and The Stranger, the Only copy and paste news source in Seattle.
bassplayerguy have another Tallboy and chime in after you actually know what is going on and not just because The Stranger says so.
bassplayerguy have another Tallboy and chime in after you actually know what is going on and not just because The Stranger says so.
106
Yes, @92, I will go outside and confront a cocker spaniel even in the face of a non life-threatening bite from said cocker spaniel. I will also stay inside when a large, muscular pit bull I've never seen is sniffing around on my deck. Animal Control informed me I'd done exactly the right thing, in fact.
You call that racist (a word you clearly don't know the meaning of and use in a way that is incredibly insulting to those who experience racism).
I call it being a rational human. I suspect the vast majority of grown-ups understand my position. I suspect you are not in the grown-up category yet. Or you a troll. Also quite possible.
You call that racist (a word you clearly don't know the meaning of and use in a way that is incredibly insulting to those who experience racism).
I call it being a rational human. I suspect the vast majority of grown-ups understand my position. I suspect you are not in the grown-up category yet. Or you a troll. Also quite possible.
107
@106 SeattleBound, so the Cocker Spaniel is a dog you know, a dog you see around, a dog you are comfortable having around but you say a dog you have never seen you you hide and call for reinforcements and that is not racist?
You are judging, specifically judging on breed so yeah I am sure I am using the term correctly.
I call it being uneducated, judgemental and racist, YES you are RACIST toward PIT BULLS,
So answer me this. I wake up every day to a mixed breed dog pissing on my front door every day. I have a pit bull and he barks Protecting me, I have called every other day for almost a year about this dog and nothing has happened. I called again tonight after this conversation saying there was a pit bull and two cops and animal control showed up.
racism, No?
You are judging, specifically judging on breed so yeah I am sure I am using the term correctly.
I call it being uneducated, judgemental and racist, YES you are RACIST toward PIT BULLS,
So answer me this. I wake up every day to a mixed breed dog pissing on my front door every day. I have a pit bull and he barks Protecting me, I have called every other day for almost a year about this dog and nothing has happened. I called again tonight after this conversation saying there was a pit bull and two cops and animal control showed up.
racism, No?
108
@104 and 105. No, you shouldn't breed b/c you apparently don't know what being dead is. "Razors injure more people that bazookas so shaving is actually more dangerous than war." Christ you people are dumb.
110
"@103 great, racism, breedism and eugenics. This is some Nazi shit right here. "
you are literally beyond parody
you are literally beyond parody
111
@107 Lord have mercy you got a serious case of the stupids. A cocker spaniel will NOT KILL YOU! That's the difference. Do you see a difference between getting stitches and being dead? There is a difference you know, between needing stitches and being dead. That's the difference between approaching a pit bull and cocker spaniel. Stitches and being dead. It's not that fucking complicated.
116
@111 they are willing to approach a dog they assume is safe but a dog they read bad things they fear for their life. that just proves how uneducated and stupid you are.
and @Seattlebound you are racist and until you educate yourself and neighbors and any dogs you have never encountered are not the same and the basis for your argument fails considering your only experience with Pit Bulls is running into a closet and hiding your anal beeds.
and @Seattlebound you are racist and until you educate yourself and neighbors and any dogs you have never encountered are not the same and the basis for your argument fails considering your only experience with Pit Bulls is running into a closet and hiding your anal beeds.
118
@113 I'm sorry, you were totally right; after reading 116 I know now these are trolls. Straight up.
119
"they are willing to approach a dog they assume is safe but a dog they read bad things they fear for their life."
A perfectly reasonable response. I'd approach a tabby and a cougar differently too
A perfectly reasonable response. I'd approach a tabby and a cougar differently too
121
@119 "Assume" and bassplayerguy I am a troll I have an opinion sorry and you are racist and Dan still cannot prove that Pit Bulls are bad other than c/p articles that he read on the airplane.
122
The incredible, breathtaking stupidity of a significant portion of our population--as on full display by the commenter here who is hurling around charges of racism--simply mitigates in favor of a ban.
123
so one cannot be racist if it is not color? Have we come full circle that only Race is considered racism? Back of the bus bitch!
Im sorry he is a Cocker Spaniel he will not hurt my children on my deck because he is not a pit bull,
Im sorry he is a Cocker Spaniel he will not hurt my children on my deck because he is not a pit bull,
124
Ive said it before - People own pit bulls for one reason, and one reason only. To intimidate. Just admit it, pit owners. Just admit it.
Ive said it before - People own pit bulls for one reason, and one reason only. To intimidate. Just admit it, pit owners. Just admit it.
125
if the dog has 15,000 genes (wild-ass guess) then that means a 1500-gene difference at 99.9%.
Sorry for nitpicking, @26, but this is wrong. A similarity level of 99.9% means only .1% of the genes are different, which for a genome of 15,000 genes would mean only 15 differing genes (1500 would be a 10% difference, not a .1% one). I don't think this invalidates your point, though.
Sorry for nitpicking, @26, but this is wrong. A similarity level of 99.9% means only .1% of the genes are different, which for a genome of 15,000 genes would mean only 15 differing genes (1500 would be a 10% difference, not a .1% one). I don't think this invalidates your point, though.
126
Seattlebound, who said: "@63 Ya think? Ya think that heavy criminal fines and incarceration would deter every pit bull owner? Just like the death penalty has deterred all murderers?
Sorry, but I have to disagree here. By the logic you're proposing here, nobody should ever be punished for anything, since punishment doesn't really deter crime -- right? So, should we drop not only the death penalty, but in fact any legal penalty, on murder? And what would the consequence be -- an increase, or a decrease, in the number of murders?
Punishment does work. It doesn't prevent/solve every single case, of course, but until we have a good, reliable, predictable science of social engineering that tells us what exactly to do to prevent social problems, we have to use the means that have worked thus far. The law works. Till we have something better I say let's use it.
So I have to agree with Dingo: if bad dog owners were held criminally responsible for the damage caused by their dogs, it would be less likely that you'd have had a pitbull roaming all over your backyard. The other reasonable solutions proposed on this comment thread would have had less effect, if at all, on this possibility.
Sorry, but I have to disagree here. By the logic you're proposing here, nobody should ever be punished for anything, since punishment doesn't really deter crime -- right? So, should we drop not only the death penalty, but in fact any legal penalty, on murder? And what would the consequence be -- an increase, or a decrease, in the number of murders?
Punishment does work. It doesn't prevent/solve every single case, of course, but until we have a good, reliable, predictable science of social engineering that tells us what exactly to do to prevent social problems, we have to use the means that have worked thus far. The law works. Till we have something better I say let's use it.
So I have to agree with Dingo: if bad dog owners were held criminally responsible for the damage caused by their dogs, it would be less likely that you'd have had a pitbull roaming all over your backyard. The other reasonable solutions proposed on this comment thread would have had less effect, if at all, on this possibility.
127
@126. I agree. If we charged pet owners with murder if their animal killed someone I think there'd eventually be a drop in idiots owning potentially dangerous animals.
128
Pit bulls are inherently more dangerous than other dogs. Sorry to disappoint the bleeding heart animal lovers out there, but it's true.
It's great that pit bull maulings are rare, but I doubt that comforts the parents of children who are killed by pit bulls. Your desire to own an aggressive breed of dog is not more important than another person's safety.
I've met some wonderful pit bulls in my day. Really, sweet, friendly dogs, but so the fuck what? Pit bulls kill people. They can be aggressive and unpredictable. They should be banned.
Saying that a ban might be ineffective at getting rid of all pit bulls is not an argument against a ban, just an argument for better enforcement of the ban. Clearly, no ban will be completely effective. I spent 10 years in a city with a pit bull ban (Mesa, AZ), and I can tell you that the pit bull owners I knew were certainly much more careful about securing their dogs, because if a pit bull got out and was caught by Animal Control it would be killed.
I really do love animals. But I've never understood why so many people seem far more emotionally involved in the lives of animals than they are in the lives of members of their own species, even the innocent, vulnerable juveniles of their own species.
It's great that pit bull maulings are rare, but I doubt that comforts the parents of children who are killed by pit bulls. Your desire to own an aggressive breed of dog is not more important than another person's safety.
I've met some wonderful pit bulls in my day. Really, sweet, friendly dogs, but so the fuck what? Pit bulls kill people. They can be aggressive and unpredictable. They should be banned.
Saying that a ban might be ineffective at getting rid of all pit bulls is not an argument against a ban, just an argument for better enforcement of the ban. Clearly, no ban will be completely effective. I spent 10 years in a city with a pit bull ban (Mesa, AZ), and I can tell you that the pit bull owners I knew were certainly much more careful about securing their dogs, because if a pit bull got out and was caught by Animal Control it would be killed.
I really do love animals. But I've never understood why so many people seem far more emotionally involved in the lives of animals than they are in the lives of members of their own species, even the innocent, vulnerable juveniles of their own species.
129
@128 -- "But I've never understood why so many people seem far more emotionally involved in the lives of animals than they are in the lives of members of their own species, even the innocent, vulnerable juveniles of their own species."
Because that would be racist.
Seriously, does anyone have actual data about this? There are cities that have banned pit bulls. Have their mauling rates changed?
Because that would be racist.
Seriously, does anyone have actual data about this? There are cities that have banned pit bulls. Have their mauling rates changed?
130
@71, given that there is some evidence that human and dog evolution is closely linked, and that much of our cognitive abilities are due to the "work" that dogs took over for us when they became domesticated, it might be better to suggest that an aversion to having dogs is the psychological disorder. (Sorry, Dan.)
133
I fucking hate idiots who think that banning pit bulls is the same as discrimination. They weren't created by god or nature. They were bread to be killers by humans. It's like saying banning land mines is discrimination.
134
@ Functional Atheist: I never said only "dog experts" can have an opinion about dogs. I said that Dan is both completely ignorant about dogs AND hasn't bothered to do any homework, which is obvious from his relentless promotion of a solution (breed bans) that doesn't work.
135
I exerted myself and found www.dogsbite.org. Plenty of data, though it is obviously there in support of breed bans. Pit bull bans dramatically reduce pit bull bites (hardly surprising). There was a lot less data about bites in general, but it was evident that in places with pit bull bans, "dangerous dog" bans, or special laws about such dogs, the dog bite rate may not change much but the bites are a lot less severe.
This was interesting:
"A trend that began in California now has communities across the country considering a similar option: mandatory pit bull sterilization. Cities troubled with high pit bull bite counts and shelter occupancy rates are hoping to combat both problems at once with spay/neuter laws targeted at pit bulls. In January 2006, San Francisco enacted such a measure. After 18 months of passing: pit bull impoundments declined by 21%; shelter occupancy rates fell from three-quarters to one-quarter and pit bull euthanizations dropped 24%.
"By 2010, biting incidents had significantly decreased as well. Sgt. Bill Herndon, of the San Francisco Police Department's vicious dog unit, said the numbers and severity of pit bull attacks are down since the ordinance was enacted."
This was interesting:
"A trend that began in California now has communities across the country considering a similar option: mandatory pit bull sterilization. Cities troubled with high pit bull bite counts and shelter occupancy rates are hoping to combat both problems at once with spay/neuter laws targeted at pit bulls. In January 2006, San Francisco enacted such a measure. After 18 months of passing: pit bull impoundments declined by 21%; shelter occupancy rates fell from three-quarters to one-quarter and pit bull euthanizations dropped 24%.
"By 2010, biting incidents had significantly decreased as well. Sgt. Bill Herndon, of the San Francisco Police Department's vicious dog unit, said the numbers and severity of pit bull attacks are down since the ordinance was enacted."
136
@30
Heroin owners rarely walk their heroin outside to take a shit.
I'm not saying banning is the answer to this problem, but prohibiting certain behaviors and items IS the right thing to do in certain circumstances. For instance, I'm quite happy that dog fights and bear baiting are illegal, and that not just anyone can get their hands on surface to air missiles.
Heroin owners rarely walk their heroin outside to take a shit.
I'm not saying banning is the answer to this problem, but prohibiting certain behaviors and items IS the right thing to do in certain circumstances. For instance, I'm quite happy that dog fights and bear baiting are illegal, and that not just anyone can get their hands on surface to air missiles.
137
My sister called Animal Control for a rattlesnake in her yard yesterday. I was like "Bitch, you wouldn't have called the cops for a garter snake, you're so racist. You know garters and rattlers have almost the exact same DNA, the rattler just wasn't loved enough by a caring pet owner. How could you do that to such a sweet snake that really loves kids?"
138
Actually, the pit bull bans in Denver and Aurora CO are in the process of being mitigated. The ban went into effect in Aurora in 2006. Since 2003, yes the number of bites by pit bulls has dropped (as you would expect), but the numbers of bites from ALL OTHER DOGS has gone UP. This leads one to conclude that it's the same SHITTY OWNERS raising dogs.
Additionally, according to a study done by the Children's Hospital here in Colorado, more dog attacks occur on children by Labs and Golden Retrievers than any other type of dog in the state. This is because people WRONGLY assume that the family dogs are not, in fact, dogs, and will never bite or attack.
Dogs will bite and attack. It doesn't matter. Any dog can be inherently unpredictable. That is a fact. Some people are better equipped to own some dogs than others. Just like some people are better equipped to do certain jobs than others.
It really does ultimately come down to owner responsibility -- understanding of the breed, understanding of your dog, training, and responsibility.
Additionally, according to a study done by the Children's Hospital here in Colorado, more dog attacks occur on children by Labs and Golden Retrievers than any other type of dog in the state. This is because people WRONGLY assume that the family dogs are not, in fact, dogs, and will never bite or attack.
Dogs will bite and attack. It doesn't matter. Any dog can be inherently unpredictable. That is a fact. Some people are better equipped to own some dogs than others. Just like some people are better equipped to do certain jobs than others.
It really does ultimately come down to owner responsibility -- understanding of the breed, understanding of your dog, training, and responsibility.
140
Dogs will bite and attack. It doesn't matter. Any dog can be inherently unpredictable. That is a fact. Some dogs are better equipped to do tremendous damage than others.
141
@140 -Yes, some dogs are better equiped to do tremendous damage such as Rotti's, sherpards, akida's, chow's, doberman's, german short hair pointers, american bulldogs, Standard poddles etc. - large, powerful, high strung, "sporting" breeds.
If you're going to ban pitbulls, ya may as well ban all these breeds no?
And seattlebound, I would hope you would be leary to approach any of the dogs listed above should they wander into your backyard. A German sherpard could kill you - probably why they are so popular with police /military organisations.
If you're going to ban pitbulls, ya may as well ban all these breeds no?
And seattlebound, I would hope you would be leary to approach any of the dogs listed above should they wander into your backyard. A German sherpard could kill you - probably why they are so popular with police /military organisations.
143
@142 -- I love you completely ignore the entire rest of my post, you know, the parts with the facts and statistics that can be backed up by the published studies done by the physicians at Children's Hospital, as well as the Aurora City Council's own data on bites in the city of Aurora since 2003.
Don't let facts get in the way of your truthiness there.
Don't let facts get in the way of your truthiness there.
144
Go ahead Reader01, laugh your ass off, Standard poodles are big, powerful sketchy dogs!
This is exactly the point the so called pit apologists are trying to make: you're not scared of a Standard poodle because it's a poodle and everyone knows THAT breed is all sweet and cuddle and would never hurt a fly.
And I'm (is that correct?) sorry about the apostrophes - no doubt you're (is that correct?) my intellectual superior - even if you can't (is that correct?) form entire sentences with periods and everything.
This is exactly the point the so called pit apologists are trying to make: you're not scared of a Standard poodle because it's a poodle and everyone knows THAT breed is all sweet and cuddle and would never hurt a fly.
And I'm (is that correct?) sorry about the apostrophes - no doubt you're (is that correct?) my intellectual superior - even if you can't (is that correct?) form entire sentences with periods and everything.
145
144 OR 143. Pit bulls or their mixes were responsible for 59% of fatal dog attacks between January 1, 2006 to December 31, 2008, for example. They are also responsible for more bites resulting in significant bodily harm than EVERY OTHER BREED COMBINED while making up only about 4% of the total dog population. Pit bulls are inherently more dangerous than other breeds, whether you want to acknowledge it or not, and you do not have any right to own the dog breed of your choice, period. Hopefully this penetrates your thick skulls before the teeth of the dogs you love so much for some unfathomable reason do.
Don't let the facts get in the way of truthiness indeed.
Don't let the facts get in the way of truthiness indeed.
148
Seattlebound, why wouldn't you just shoot a dog that trespassed in your backyard? Trespassing dogs should be shot on sight. Regardless of breed. Unless you know them and feel safe with them (and even then, if we shot all trespassing dogs, people would be a lot more careful with their animals).
149
Some interesting quotes as I read further in that report... "In more than two-thirds of the cases, the life-threatening or fatal attack was apparently the first known dangerous behavior by the animal in question. Children and elderly people were almost always the victims."
Also "One might hope that educating the public against the acquisition of dangerous dogs would help; but the very traits that make certain breeds dangerous also appeal to a certain class of dog owner."
AKA pieces of shit. For my own (immaterial) part I have yet to meet a pit owner that wasn't a giant bag of shit.
Also "One might hope that educating the public against the acquisition of dangerous dogs would help; but the very traits that make certain breeds dangerous also appeal to a certain class of dog owner."
AKA pieces of shit. For my own (immaterial) part I have yet to meet a pit owner that wasn't a giant bag of shit.
150
And the summary, which puts it better than I can: "The humane community does not try to encourage the adoption of pumas in the same manner that we encourage the adoption of felis catus, because even though a puma can also be box-trained and otherwise exhibits much the same indoor behavior, it is clearly understood that accidents with a puma are frequently fatal.
For the same reason, it is sheer foolishness to encourage people to regard pit bull terriers and Rottweilers as just dogs like any other, no matter how much they may behave like other dogs under ordinary circumstances.
Temperament is not the issue, nor is it even relevant. What is relevant is actuarial risk. If almost any other dog has a bad moment, someone may get bitten, but will not be maimed for life or killed, and the actuarial risk is accordingly reasonable. If a pit bull terrier or a Rottweiler has a bad moment, often someone is maimed or killed--and that has now created off-the-chart actuarial risk, for which the dogs as well as their victims are paying the price.
For the same reason, it is sheer foolishness to encourage people to regard pit bull terriers and Rottweilers as just dogs like any other, no matter how much they may behave like other dogs under ordinary circumstances.
Temperament is not the issue, nor is it even relevant. What is relevant is actuarial risk. If almost any other dog has a bad moment, someone may get bitten, but will not be maimed for life or killed, and the actuarial risk is accordingly reasonable. If a pit bull terrier or a Rottweiler has a bad moment, often someone is maimed or killed--and that has now created off-the-chart actuarial risk, for which the dogs as well as their victims are paying the price.
151
@144 I'm not sure about sketchy. Apparently standard poodles are breed that's least likely to bite. Can you find one instance of a standard poodle killing someone?
152
BlackRose, I will answer in seriousness though I detect that you are asking a rhetorical question.
First, I don't own a gun. Second, I wouldn't shoot an animal who isn't mauling someone even if I did.
Here's the deal. My family chooses not to have potentially deadly items--like guns or pit bulls--in our household. I don't think it's so much to ask that strangers keep their deadly items--like guns and pit bulls--off my property. I also expect gun owners and dog owners to follow the law.
Call me crrraaazzzy.
First, I don't own a gun. Second, I wouldn't shoot an animal who isn't mauling someone even if I did.
Here's the deal. My family chooses not to have potentially deadly items--like guns or pit bulls--in our household. I don't think it's so much to ask that strangers keep their deadly items--like guns and pit bulls--off my property. I also expect gun owners and dog owners to follow the law.
Call me crrraaazzzy.
153
Wow, Reader01, you seem really aggressive to a totally sane, calm, rational comment.
I was merely pointing out what has happened in an area where a pit bull breed ban HAS gone into effect, and been in effect for a number of years. As one would expect, bites from that breed have gone down, but bites from other breeds have gone up, actually surpassing the total number of bites that occured the year before pit bulls were banned.
Furthermore, as you point out, the victims are the children and the elderly. Again, in an area where pit bulls are banned, more Labs and Golden Retrievers bite children under the age of 5 WHO ARE UNSUPERVISED with the family dogs, leading to serious and sometimes fatal injuries. I think we can all agree that kids under the age of 5 shouldn't be left alone with ANY dog, but then again, that would require the owners and parents to accept responsibility for all the living things in their charge.
We certainly wouldn't want that to happen, now would we.
Finally, my aunt-in-law has bred pits on the East Coast for over 10 years. Not one of her dogs has ever had a behavioral issue. So, in over 100 dogs from a known bloodline and responsible breeder, who sent her dogs to vetted homes, not one of those dogs has had an issue -- yes, there is corrolation to breeding, socialization early on, training, and family life.
I was merely pointing out what has happened in an area where a pit bull breed ban HAS gone into effect, and been in effect for a number of years. As one would expect, bites from that breed have gone down, but bites from other breeds have gone up, actually surpassing the total number of bites that occured the year before pit bulls were banned.
Furthermore, as you point out, the victims are the children and the elderly. Again, in an area where pit bulls are banned, more Labs and Golden Retrievers bite children under the age of 5 WHO ARE UNSUPERVISED with the family dogs, leading to serious and sometimes fatal injuries. I think we can all agree that kids under the age of 5 shouldn't be left alone with ANY dog, but then again, that would require the owners and parents to accept responsibility for all the living things in their charge.
We certainly wouldn't want that to happen, now would we.
Finally, my aunt-in-law has bred pits on the East Coast for over 10 years. Not one of her dogs has ever had a behavioral issue. So, in over 100 dogs from a known bloodline and responsible breeder, who sent her dogs to vetted homes, not one of those dogs has had an issue -- yes, there is corrolation to breeding, socialization early on, training, and family life.
154
"but bites from other breeds have gone up, actually surpassing the total number of bites that occured the year before pit bulls were banned."
Again, no one cares. Their bites don't often mean permanent damage up to and including death.
"more Labs and Golden Retrievers bite children under the age of 5 WHO ARE UNSUPERVISED with the family dogs, leading to serious and sometimes fatal injuries."
Really? How many Golden Retrievers and Labs have maimed or killed children? As it so happens, from 1982-2010, here's how the breeds stack up. First figure is bodily harm, second is maimings, third is deaths. Tell me which one stands out
Golden 9, 6, 2
Labrador 36, 28, 3 (approximately 92x as many Labs as Goldens)
Pit bull 1552, 859, 166 (approximately 1/3 as many Pits as Labs)
Yup, clearly I am deluded!
No one cares about your aunt. Read the above again. "In more than two-thirds of the cases, the life-threatening or fatal attack was apparently the first known dangerous behavior by the animal in question... Temperament is not the issue, nor is it even relevant."
You are wrong, full stop.
Again, no one cares. Their bites don't often mean permanent damage up to and including death.
"more Labs and Golden Retrievers bite children under the age of 5 WHO ARE UNSUPERVISED with the family dogs, leading to serious and sometimes fatal injuries."
Really? How many Golden Retrievers and Labs have maimed or killed children? As it so happens, from 1982-2010, here's how the breeds stack up. First figure is bodily harm, second is maimings, third is deaths. Tell me which one stands out
Golden 9, 6, 2
Labrador 36, 28, 3 (approximately 92x as many Labs as Goldens)
Pit bull 1552, 859, 166 (approximately 1/3 as many Pits as Labs)
Yup, clearly I am deluded!
No one cares about your aunt. Read the above again. "In more than two-thirds of the cases, the life-threatening or fatal attack was apparently the first known dangerous behavior by the animal in question... Temperament is not the issue, nor is it even relevant."
You are wrong, full stop.
156
Thank God the insurance industry is doing something useful for once and effectively banning these dogs from new policies.
157
You could literally replace every banned pit with a HUNDRED (homed) labs and come out ahead on the number of serious injuries/deaths inflicted.
158
27/bassplayerguy: I also think there needs to be a law that if your dog kills someone then you, as the owner, will be held liable as if you were the one that killed the person. If it really is just an issue of bad owners then this would get those bad owners off of the street.
The problem with that, of course, is that it's after-the-fact. Holding a pit bull owner liable if their beast mauls and kills someone is of small comfort to the person who has been mauled and killed.
Still, it's a good idea and certainly better than not holding owners responsible.
The problem with that, of course, is that it's after-the-fact. Holding a pit bull owner liable if their beast mauls and kills someone is of small comfort to the person who has been mauled and killed.
Still, it's a good idea and certainly better than not holding owners responsible.
159
@158 but it's certainly a lot better than getting nothing more than "oops" from an irresponsible owner who's dog just killed your kid.
160
As someone cohabitating with a cockapoo (cocker spaniel+poodle and stupidly trendy dog a while back) I'd like to say to SeattleBound (who surely knows this already but I'm gonna say it anyway) and everyone in general that you reeeeally shouldn't approach even the most harmless adorable looking dog without verification from an owner that its not gonna try and bite your hand off. Because the ironically named "Precious" that lives with me will try to bite your hand off. But she will look at you cutely with big brown eyes up until that very moment.
I think its her poodle side, honestly. Poodles are evil. But who knows?
In general I'm against breed bans because its just feeding into paranoia instead of controlling the breeding of animals (and breeding for traits so cunty bitches like Precious don't exist.) For the record, I kinda like the stupid dog (affection whore) but I cant have any friends over and shes extremely difficult to walk and never stops barking so I kinda hate it. Had a doberman-german shepard mix as a kid and he was the best dog ever...and my sister used to have a beautiful sweetheart of a pitbull.
I think its her poodle side, honestly. Poodles are evil. But who knows?
In general I'm against breed bans because its just feeding into paranoia instead of controlling the breeding of animals (and breeding for traits so cunty bitches like Precious don't exist.) For the record, I kinda like the stupid dog (affection whore) but I cant have any friends over and shes extremely difficult to walk and never stops barking so I kinda hate it. Had a doberman-german shepard mix as a kid and he was the best dog ever...and my sister used to have a beautiful sweetheart of a pitbull.
161
@48 -- Part of the problem is that most of the people who give a crap about dog breeding are people looking for inbred show dogs that have a dozen bone and joint problems but a perfect coat, so sometimes it's tough to spread positive ideas about dog breeding.
@50 -- That dog's owner is a bad owner whether that was a pit bull or a chihuahua. And while they're not as threatening to a full-grown adult human, I've personally encountered chihuahuas easily as unbalanced (and just as dangerous to small children) as the worst pit-bulls.
@50 -- That dog's owner is a bad owner whether that was a pit bull or a chihuahua. And while they're not as threatening to a full-grown adult human, I've personally encountered chihuahuas easily as unbalanced (and just as dangerous to small children) as the worst pit-bulls.
162
Yes all dogs bite,
But which are most likely to KILL (dogbitelaw site)? 65% of dog bite deaths in the US over 24 years were caused by Pit Bulls, Rottweilers, or Presa Canarios or their mixes. I have no idea of what proportion of the national spectrum of dogs they represent, but where I live there are very few on the street. Nowadays we DON'T need any breeds that kill, we just need guard dogs, hunting dogs, and family pooches (and working dogs, blah, blah, blah).
Peace.
But which are most likely to KILL (dogbitelaw site)? 65% of dog bite deaths in the US over 24 years were caused by Pit Bulls, Rottweilers, or Presa Canarios or their mixes. I have no idea of what proportion of the national spectrum of dogs they represent, but where I live there are very few on the street. Nowadays we DON'T need any breeds that kill, we just need guard dogs, hunting dogs, and family pooches (and working dogs, blah, blah, blah).
Peace.
164
I came over here hoping this post would be about enjoying my fetish for guys with sexy armpits, and I'm leaving sorely disappointed.
165
@115: I swear I read that like 5 minutes after posting this:
Fred Casely commented on Slog Bible Study: Leviticus 25:44-45.
Re @29: anyone else here getting creeped out by the increasingly frequent gratuitous references to Dan's family? Please let's all stop.
166
The first thing you hear from any dog owner is "s/he never does that" right after s/he already did it. The next thing you hear is the exception to the rule: "except when YOU ride a bike" or "dance on one foot." Whatever it is. The dog will have shat on your leg, eaten your children... whatever. So when I tell my children "no you can't pet the dog" and you, dog owner, start to say "don't worry s/he's friendly" - just shut up and walk by with your dog on a leash. My belief in your dog is much lower than my love for my children's current facial features and 10 fingers.
Advertisement
Most Commented on Slog
-
Los Angeles Gay Bar Bans Bachelorette Parties Until Marriage Equality Is Attained by David Schmader
-
The Sunday Morning News by Unpaid Intern
-
Idiot Tries to Defend Bigoted Anti-Gay-Marriage Preacher on Anderson Cooper by Paul Constant
-
Six Moms with Too Much Time on Their Hands and a Shitty Website Decide to Fight Gay Superheroes by Paul Constant
-
Former Sen. Alan Simpson (R-WY) Says Members of His Party Have Rocks for Brains by Charles Mudede
-
The Saturday Morning News by Unpaid Intern
-
Why Mayor McGinn's Wife Canceled Her Family's Seattle Times Subscription by Eli Sanders
-
Barack Obama Smoked a Lot of Pot as a Young Man by Paul Constant
-
The Limits of Keynesianism by Charles Mudede
-
Rural America by Charles Mudede
RSS
Facebook
Twitter
Comments (166) RSS