Slog
News & ArtsThursday, July 21, 2011
Sex To Tell the Truth
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 11:28 AM
I know there are women out there who don't believe they have a right to police the erotic imaginations of their boyfriends and husbands—to say nothing of their brothers, coworkers, bosses, and coaches. There are women out there who don't consider porn a form "buying sex." There are women out there who don't go "ballistic" when their boyfriends or husbands admit to looking at a little porn. And there are women out there who use porn themselves. I know all of that. And I know that this completely insane post at Jezebel was written by a man. But, shit, reading it... all I could think was... I'm so glad I'm gay.
The castrati sings:
Because so many men are dishonest about sex, either lying directly or being "economical with the truth" about their private behavior, women are left feeling unsafe and mistrustful. Of course, not every single man uses porn or buys sex in other forms. But a great many do, as Newsweek reminds us, and they do include husbands and boyfriends, brothers and fathers, bosses and teachers, coaches and co-workers. That so many women are unsettled by that reality is as much a reflection of what they don't know about the men in their lives as what they do....
I've heard from many guys who tell me that they lie about porn (and the other kinds of sex they may buy) because, as one put it to me, "women go ballistic when you tell them the truth." But it's not women's job to ratchet down their anger in order to make it safe for men to get real. We owe it to the women we love—and to ourselves—to have the courage to name what it is we're doing and how often we're doing it.
So... husbands and boyfriends, brothers (!) and fathers (!!), bosses (!!!) and teachers (!!!!), coaches (!!!!!) and coworkers (!!!!!!) have a responsibility to be honest with the women in their lives about their porn use. But women can't be asked to "ratchet down their anger" when they're told the truth—indeed, they have a right to be furious, and you should stand there and take it, you sex maniac. You tell the truth, she goes ballistic—got it, guys?
Sometimes I'm so glad that my wife is a man.
2
Wow. Talk about someone who has no idea what he's talking about. I'm sorry but if a woman goes "ballistic" at the revelation that their spouse watches porn then there is something severely wrong with HER and HER REACTION. Not the spouse looking at porn.
4
Okay, this is manageable. I'm single, gay, and childless, so nothing to worry about there, I work with a woman, but she's cool. I'm nobody's boss, though I'm training a new guy, so maybe I should tell him about my porn habits. I do have sisters, so I guess I'd better give them a call. Thank god he didn't say sons, grandsons, nephews and cousins. I have too large a family to make that kind of time commitment.
9
I think my brother would much rather if I had yelled at him after finding his porn rather than what I do which never stop telling the story.
It was a VHS tape made to look like it contained Disney's Snow White. And my sister and I were really expecting to see Snow White and take a sweet little trip down memory lane.
I think it's a funny story.
It was a VHS tape made to look like it contained Disney's Snow White. And my sister and I were really expecting to see Snow White and take a sweet little trip down memory lane.
I think it's a funny story.
10
Would it be so hard for straight people to just talk things out and not make assumptions about what constitutes monogamy/fidelity et. al.? If a married woman/committed girlfriend flies off the handle when her man looks at porn, he didn't do any screening/due diligence before committing. In that case, they're both idiots.
12
Dan, You have to consider the source. You were on Bill Maher this week. He held up three Jesus covers and multiple Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachman covers. Newsweek is a pretty comprised source.
13
@7 -- obviously, because women in his reality don't consume porn or have fantasies or behave in any way which is sexual at all, except under duress.
15
Thank you for this, Dan. Too bad you're preaching to the choir here. You should have published it in Good Housekeeping instead.
16
I'm with 10. Find someone who has views that work with you. There are women who are okay with guys using porn. Even women who will watch porn with a partner as something they do together sometimes, as well as something they can each do on their own. If that's what you want, then just make sure you're not with someone who freaks out about porn.
18
And why are all forms of sexual stimulation being lumped in together? Isn't there a difference between fantasy-food and steak? Do women believe the men who look at porn on line are so blind to reality that they think they're actually tricking? What about the men who like to read sexual fiction -- are they culpable even if they recognize the difference between living, breathing sex workers and print on the page/screen?
And why does the study only track men? Do women not fantasize? Do they not look for and enjoy photographic and fictional porn? Do they not hire "escorts"? The Chippendales dancers weren't dancing for the comparatively few men in their audiences, as far as I know. Were they sex workers? Were they volunteers? Were they brothers, sons, husbands, boyfriends, etc., or were they exhibitionistic loners with no families and no social connections?
I'm so glad I'm single.
And why does the study only track men? Do women not fantasize? Do they not look for and enjoy photographic and fictional porn? Do they not hire "escorts"? The Chippendales dancers weren't dancing for the comparatively few men in their audiences, as far as I know. Were they sex workers? Were they volunteers? Were they brothers, sons, husbands, boyfriends, etc., or were they exhibitionistic loners with no families and no social connections?
I'm so glad I'm single.
19
What if you, like all of us, get our porn for free on the computer machine? Is it ok as long as men aren't "buying" sex?
20
I'm so glad I'm not one of those women. Sometimes hearing that stuff hurts, but... I'm not perfect either :)
21
Every time I hear an anti-porn argument I think of being in middle school in the 80s and watching Donahue and feeling vaguely guilty about my budding interest (obsession?) in pornography. Glad that for the most part feminism moved on from this.
22
Dan…I think of this topic each time you give advice to straight couples. I'm not sure, as much as I respect you, that you intrinsically understand the conflict inherent in straight relationships.
Men and women simply have very different views of human sexuality. Even where there's a profession of similarity between two seemingly compatible partners of opposite sex, that difference most frequently is stored in a paper box, jumping out when unexpected.
Our cultural assumption is that women's sexuality is moral, men's immoral. I've grown weary of that assumption, and more and more simply refuse to play the game.
Men and women simply have very different views of human sexuality. Even where there's a profession of similarity between two seemingly compatible partners of opposite sex, that difference most frequently is stored in a paper box, jumping out when unexpected.
Our cultural assumption is that women's sexuality is moral, men's immoral. I've grown weary of that assumption, and more and more simply refuse to play the game.
23
I'm a straight woman and also a reader of Jezebel, and when I read that, all I could think was "come the fuck on, that isn't BUYING sex." I could give a rip that my boyfriend watches porn. As long as I am getting laid, what's it to me? I doubt I am the only straight girl who feels that way.
Jezebel has gone from a place with an advice segment called "Pot Psychology" where someone who called herself Slut Machine and her BFF answered reader advice questions on video (mostly about sex) while high, to where the woman who wrote under the name Slut Machine now writes about being a mom under her married name. *sigh*
Jezebel has gone from a place with an advice segment called "Pot Psychology" where someone who called herself Slut Machine and her BFF answered reader advice questions on video (mostly about sex) while high, to where the woman who wrote under the name Slut Machine now writes about being a mom under her married name. *sigh*
24
Encourage women from childhood to be honest and open about their own sexualities and a lot of the porn "problem" will dissipate all on its own.
25
Sigh. Yes, Dan, women exist who don't castigate their partners for using porn, or who use porn themselves, alone and/or with a sexual partner. Many, many women commented on that Jezebel article to say how weird and offensive it is to see porn lumped in with prostitution, how this study is wildly inaccurate and should be redone without such strident guidelines. It would have been kind of cool if you could have acknowledged that.
26
Why would you even get involved with someone who's so retarded that they'd go ballistic at the idea of watching porn?
I mean, if you're seeing prostitutes while involved with someone, without their permission, that's a different story. But porn? Come on.
I mean, if you're seeing prostitutes while involved with someone, without their permission, that's a different story. But porn? Come on.
28
If your girlfriend/wife freaks the fuck out over a little porn viewing I say DTMF! If enough guys do that, these women will have to change.
Not that I think that would actually work. But really why would a guy want to stay with a woman who acts like that?
Not that I think that would actually work. But really why would a guy want to stay with a woman who acts like that?
29
if your spouse gets jealous/angry at you masturbating or looking at porn when not in her presence you clearly picked the wrong person to be with. this is something that should have come up way before you ever got married
30
Nice insinuation that a man who watches porn is THIS close to visiting hookers. If even half the men who watched porn paid for actual sex with actual women 10% of the female workforce would have to be sex-workers, and they'd be perpetually exhausted.
If my boyfriend told me he didn't watch porn I'd be mildly irritated by the lying. If I actually came to believe that he didn't watch porn I'd be perplexed. I'm not interested in my boyfriends porn because I find hetero porn icky, but he's welcome to it. He doesn't force me to watch his porn, and I won't force him to watch mine.
I've heard from many guys who tell me that they lie about porn (and the other kinds of sex they may buy)
Nice insinuation that a man who watches porn is THIS close to visiting hookers. If even half the men who watched porn paid for actual sex with actual women 10% of the female workforce would have to be sex-workers, and they'd be perpetually exhausted.
If my boyfriend told me he didn't watch porn I'd be mildly irritated by the lying. If I actually came to believe that he didn't watch porn I'd be perplexed. I'm not interested in my boyfriends porn because I find hetero porn icky, but he's welcome to it. He doesn't force me to watch his porn, and I won't force him to watch mine.
31
Straight men: time to man up! Tell your wives/girlfriends about reality, and if they go ballistic, DTMFA.
BTW, my husband has an actual girlfriend, so there are some open minded straight women out here.
BTW, my husband has an actual girlfriend, so there are some open minded straight women out here.
32
@25: I acknowledged that lots of women use porn, are okay with it, etc., in the first graph. I didn't dive down into the comments thread, so I couldn't acknowledge 'em, 'cuz I didn't read 'em. Thanks for doing that bit fer me.
33
That article was ridiculous. This is what happens all too often when a guy gets a degree in Women's Studies. If I have to hear one more argument about how pornography equals misogynistic, I'm going to start hitting people with a shovel. Reclaim your testicles, big guy. It's entirely possible to love and respect women and enjoy a good perverted video clip at the same time.
34
"Honey... it's time I tell you the truth. I entered into a legally binding sex contract with a woman. I assumed shared responsibility for her debts, pay a significant portion of her living expenses, and do odd jobs for her around the house... in exchange for sex. I'm so sorry."
36
What I really couldn't believe that no one took 2 seconds to acknowledge that this was an article from FUCKING NEWSWEEK (!)...probably the least credible magazine in that circulation range in the country.
Much, much fun to that effect here, and all over Mr. Destructo:
http://www.mrdestructo.com/2010/03/newsw…
"To make up for breaking no news, it tries to give you the "full picture" on events, which is usually laughably small, even when it doesn't involve reiterating talking-points and "he said"/"she said" quotes on both sides of an issue, which is its usual stock in trade. Newsweek is news for people who think Readers Digest Condensed Editions are literature. The only difference is that, because it has an editorial board and staff of writers with agendas when it comes to summarizing news, there's even more mediation between events and the readership than simply hacking down big text until it's small and simple enough for people to finish reading while shitting."
Much, much fun to that effect here, and all over Mr. Destructo:
http://www.mrdestructo.com/2010/03/newsw…
"To make up for breaking no news, it tries to give you the "full picture" on events, which is usually laughably small, even when it doesn't involve reiterating talking-points and "he said"/"she said" quotes on both sides of an issue, which is its usual stock in trade. Newsweek is news for people who think Readers Digest Condensed Editions are literature. The only difference is that, because it has an editorial board and staff of writers with agendas when it comes to summarizing news, there's even more mediation between events and the readership than simply hacking down big text until it's small and simple enough for people to finish reading while shitting."
37
Okay, so the next time my boyfriend casually brings up the topic of masturbation or pornography, instead of being surprised that he does it (he's so discrete!) or adding to the conversation with my own stories, I should be furious with him because that's the real reaction he's going for. Nah, I like my way better.
And I certainly don't want to hear about my dad's habits. Jeeze. Have some decency, man.
And I certainly don't want to hear about my dad's habits. Jeeze. Have some decency, man.
38
if your gf finds it gross/degrading you don't have to tell her about it but she should be smart enough to know you still do it on your personal time. i'm in a healthy relationship with a girl i am crazy about and when we are apart i still need a little stimulation until i can see her again. doesn't make me want her any less. in fact it's because i want her that much right now and can't
39
That Newsweek article is also weird how it starts in by talking about how "sex buyers" include men who use pornography or go to strip clubs... and then promptly goes on to only discuss prostitution (especially child prostitution) and talk about the "sex buyer" group as if they are all men who frequent prostitutes.
Apparently they'd expect me to enjoy degrading women (or men, I guess, since I'm gay) and all that, due to my use of pornography, even though I have no interest in nor have I ever visited a strip club, nor hired an escort or any other form of prostitute.
It's really sensationalist, and I hope that the actual study is more nuanced than that. If it's not, then it's a really crappy study.
Apparently they'd expect me to enjoy degrading women (or men, I guess, since I'm gay) and all that, due to my use of pornography, even though I have no interest in nor have I ever visited a strip club, nor hired an escort or any other form of prostitute.
It's really sensationalist, and I hope that the actual study is more nuanced than that. If it's not, then it's a really crappy study.
40
Actually, my objections don't generally center around the *porn*. I don't care about porn, per se -- I consume a certain amount of it myself. But the content thereof -- am I supposed to compete with *that*? Is *that* what you're looking for? This is something you're hiding from me, instead of sharing? You can't find any *better* porn than that? You really think she's enjoying *that* -- and you're getting off on it? (Can that even be done in real life??!?)
A lot of this will be informed by the sort of person the guy is. There's some guys I know -- I wouldn't give a shit what kind of porn they view because they've already shown they're basic, decent human beings. There's other guys -- the porn combined with their general behavior, my reaction is Get the Fuck Out of Dodge, Now.
There's a lot more going on here than "OMFGpornBBQ" -- give us *some* credit.
(I do recognize that some women's reactions are ridiculous and merit the sort of reaction Dan has. Hey, you [gay men] have Marcus Bachmann, we [women] have Phyllis Schafly. But I contend that for more women than men think, *what* they are complaining about is a slightly different thing than what the men think they're complaining about.)
A lot of this will be informed by the sort of person the guy is. There's some guys I know -- I wouldn't give a shit what kind of porn they view because they've already shown they're basic, decent human beings. There's other guys -- the porn combined with their general behavior, my reaction is Get the Fuck Out of Dodge, Now.
There's a lot more going on here than "OMFGpornBBQ" -- give us *some* credit.
(I do recognize that some women's reactions are ridiculous and merit the sort of reaction Dan has. Hey, you [gay men] have Marcus Bachmann, we [women] have Phyllis Schafly. But I contend that for more women than men think, *what* they are complaining about is a slightly different thing than what the men think they're complaining about.)
41
Dan- You missed another tag for this post. The author of that Jezebel piece is also a youth pastor: http://hugoschwyzer.net/about-hugo/
42
We've as much "bought sex from" the actors in the porn we've consumed as we've saved the world from a meteor, gunned down German bearer bond thieves, or convinced Diane Keaton to move back to New York City with us.
43
Anyway, if you dig around a bit, you'll see there's quite a bit of thoughtful commentary on the anti-sex hysteria in general and the giant gaping plotholes in this particular feature. I direct you to this one: http://www.tinynibbles.com/blogarchives/…
45
You know, these people may have the wrong inspiration, but I think there's one thing that they have right: guys need to stop lying about using porn. The only reason why women out there manage to keep getting away with "going ballistic" when they find out their partner watches porn is because some men have let them believe that they didn't watch porn. IMO, it's equivalent to women faking orgasms, and then the guy thinks something is wrong with the woman who doesn't fake them for him.
Also, even women who are accepting of reality and okay with their guy watching porn can be a little insecure about it. If that's the case, I feel like there are a few things a guy can say to his girlfriend to make her feel better about it:
-I love you and think you're mega-foxy-awesome-hot
-I use porn because sometimes I'm too lazy to use my imagination and need something to help get me horny (mostly true, right guys?)
-I would rather sleep with you than the girls in these videos (I really hope that's true for you, but say it even if it's not because being told that someone in a video with no known personality is more attractive than the person you supposedly love is really, really cruel)
-If you don't really want to know any more about it, that's okay (some girls can deal with the theoretical but have a very negative emotional reaction when faced with details; a reasonable girl will know if she's one of these)
-But if you want to know everything about it, I'm willing to share (because some girls are less scared of it if they see that your reaction to sex with them is much more enthusiastic than your reaction to masturbating to porn)
In conclusion, be honest with them about it, and if they go ballistic, try to reassure them. If they simply don't believe that ALL men have watched porn because their exes said they didn't, try telling them to call up their exes and see if they'll still say that now that they have no reason to lie.
More...
Also, even women who are accepting of reality and okay with their guy watching porn can be a little insecure about it. If that's the case, I feel like there are a few things a guy can say to his girlfriend to make her feel better about it:
-I love you and think you're mega-foxy-awesome-hot
-I use porn because sometimes I'm too lazy to use my imagination and need something to help get me horny (mostly true, right guys?)
-I would rather sleep with you than the girls in these videos (I really hope that's true for you, but say it even if it's not because being told that someone in a video with no known personality is more attractive than the person you supposedly love is really, really cruel)
-If you don't really want to know any more about it, that's okay (some girls can deal with the theoretical but have a very negative emotional reaction when faced with details; a reasonable girl will know if she's one of these)
-But if you want to know everything about it, I'm willing to share (because some girls are less scared of it if they see that your reaction to sex with them is much more enthusiastic than your reaction to masturbating to porn)
In conclusion, be honest with them about it, and if they go ballistic, try to reassure them. If they simply don't believe that ALL men have watched porn because their exes said they didn't, try telling them to call up their exes and see if they'll still say that now that they have no reason to lie.
46
@22, that's been your experience maybe. I'm a girl and I've consumed more porn (some online photos/videos, some graphic fiction) than any boyfriend I've ever had, and I've had a fair few. I also don't think I had a "different view of sex" than any of those guys -- and since I don't judge them for being into porn, having fetishes, whatever, there's really no incentive for them to lie to me about it. Blegh. I hate it when people like you and the blogger Dan quotes make blanket statements about what "men and women" do/feel.
Also, yeah, porn is not buying sex. For one, most people don't buy porn, they get it online for free. For another, porn != sex.
Also, yeah, porn is not buying sex. For one, most people don't buy porn, they get it online for free. For another, porn != sex.
47
Oh, and the other thing that popped to mind was this from Andrew Sullivan, which really had me laughing:
Ahem. Makes me thrilled to be bisexual ;)
[And as others have commented, WTF over linking porn & prostitution?]
As a gay man, I have lived in a world created, propelled and dominated by testosterone. I have loved it, been entranced by it, obsessed by it, crushed by it, exposed by it, humiliated by it and also exhausted by it. The gay male world is in some respects women's revenge on men - because everything women deal with on the testosterone front is doubled and then inflicted on other men.
Ahem. Makes me thrilled to be bisexual ;)
[And as others have commented, WTF over linking porn & prostitution?]
48
@40: Many guys specifically look at porn that is outside of what you or they would want to or be able to do in real life. It's like watching the food network for super fancy dishes that you would never bother cooking yourself.
And if a guy's basic behavior is a turn off, does your decision to hang with them really depend on the type of porn they consume?
And if a guy's basic behavior is a turn off, does your decision to hang with them really depend on the type of porn they consume?
49
I generally like Hugo's writing, but this article dissapointed me as it obviously did to most of the commenters. But I'm so glad you're glad you're gay, Dan, and don't have to put up with us harpy (and indistinguishably monolithic) anti-sex women.
50
Hugo Schwyzer could be really awesome if he'd just get over his habit of putting women on a pedestal. Poster boy for "trying too hard to be feminist".
51
"But I contend that for more women than men think, *what* they are complaining about is a slightly different thing than what the men think they're complaining about." Yes to that. The women may not be complaining about viewing porn, per se, but about the fact that they're being deceived, or because they don't understand what is going on.
For example, I've known for ages that my Dad looks at porn, because he isn't very skilled at hiding it afterward on the computer. But my mom doesn't even know how to use the computer. Eventually she walked in on him doing this, though. She was so shocked and without resources for understanding it that she actually TOLD me--obliquely at first). Imagine how funny/embarrassing this conversation was! I tried to explain that this is normal behavior nowadays, she probably would feel better about it if she looked at it with him and discussed it directly, there were differences in the types of things available, and so on.
Anyway, imagine that, for all these years of your life, you have NO concept whatsoever of the kinds of things that are now standard fare on the internet. Your experience with porn = Playboy type pictures. Imagine the surprise of discovering your husband engages with this stuff! Why didn't he tell me? Am I failing to satisfy him? Is he even interested in me sexually, when he spends this much time looking at something I'm not and never could be?
I imagine THIS is why porn might make some women feel bad--not because they hate porn, or are even opposed to viewing it themselves, but because it makes them feel terribly insecure about how porn fits into their relationship, or whether it undermines the bonds or trust they have established. When women are comfortable users of porn in their own right, they don't seem to have a problem with men using porn (barring other considerations about content, frequency, or honesty). But how many women, as opposed to men, are raised to think it is okay to use porn? My husband actually got magazines from his dad, which is a story I've heard from other guys too.
Finally, I think it's totally offensive that Dan ends this entry by saying he's glad his wife is a man. A man wrote the damn thing you're complaining about, Dan. So maybe you're just lucky you're not with HIM. Why do you have to make this about disparaging women in general, when most women nowadays ARE accepting of porn (probably because of the internet--things have really changed)? And when you have made zero effort to consider how women might feel about porn or about buying sex. For what it's worth, if my husband visited a prostitute without my permission, that would be the end of the marriage. And yeah, I think it would be BETTER for our kids if that happened. But he can look at porn as much as he likes, as far as I'm concerned--preferably but not necessarily with me.
More...
For example, I've known for ages that my Dad looks at porn, because he isn't very skilled at hiding it afterward on the computer. But my mom doesn't even know how to use the computer. Eventually she walked in on him doing this, though. She was so shocked and without resources for understanding it that she actually TOLD me--obliquely at first). Imagine how funny/embarrassing this conversation was! I tried to explain that this is normal behavior nowadays, she probably would feel better about it if she looked at it with him and discussed it directly, there were differences in the types of things available, and so on.
Anyway, imagine that, for all these years of your life, you have NO concept whatsoever of the kinds of things that are now standard fare on the internet. Your experience with porn = Playboy type pictures. Imagine the surprise of discovering your husband engages with this stuff! Why didn't he tell me? Am I failing to satisfy him? Is he even interested in me sexually, when he spends this much time looking at something I'm not and never could be?
I imagine THIS is why porn might make some women feel bad--not because they hate porn, or are even opposed to viewing it themselves, but because it makes them feel terribly insecure about how porn fits into their relationship, or whether it undermines the bonds or trust they have established. When women are comfortable users of porn in their own right, they don't seem to have a problem with men using porn (barring other considerations about content, frequency, or honesty). But how many women, as opposed to men, are raised to think it is okay to use porn? My husband actually got magazines from his dad, which is a story I've heard from other guys too.
Finally, I think it's totally offensive that Dan ends this entry by saying he's glad his wife is a man. A man wrote the damn thing you're complaining about, Dan. So maybe you're just lucky you're not with HIM. Why do you have to make this about disparaging women in general, when most women nowadays ARE accepting of porn (probably because of the internet--things have really changed)? And when you have made zero effort to consider how women might feel about porn or about buying sex. For what it's worth, if my husband visited a prostitute without my permission, that would be the end of the marriage. And yeah, I think it would be BETTER for our kids if that happened. But he can look at porn as much as he likes, as far as I'm concerned--preferably but not necessarily with me.
52
Pedantic bullshit like this is why I stopped reading Jezebel. I shudder to think of the comments thread---also I love your response, @ 42. And what is so terrible about PAYING for porn? I'm a woman, and right now I only watch free stuff (for financial reasons) but I want to actually purchase a subscription to a site when I have a steadier job, because I appreciate the ladies and gents that help me get off! They work hard, and I like to watch actors that seem happy, healthy and well fed.
53
@48 for what value of guy are we talking about (Trying to understand your last para). If I'm not sexually involved with a guy, I really don't care what he does on his, er, downtime. If I am sexually involved with a guy, his porn habit is one of several things I may evaluate about whether or not I want to continue that relationship.
55
I'm so glad my wife doesn't really give a shit, except for her complaint that "the plots in porno movies don't make any sense", to which I replied, "what plots?"
56
To all those who are suggesting that there are women who don't freak out about this and that men should just simply date them, there's a simple problem of math.
I know many women who don't have a problem with male sexuality, but those many women are vastly outnumbered by those women who DO have a problem with male sexuality. So, to simply say we men should dtmfa and move on, the pool of available women will drop dramatically in number.
I know many women who don't have a problem with male sexuality, but those many women are vastly outnumbered by those women who DO have a problem with male sexuality. So, to simply say we men should dtmfa and move on, the pool of available women will drop dramatically in number.
58
56 I agree but I feel like not freaking out about porn is part of a whole package of desirable personality traits that are worth holding out for.
I am a straight woman. So, it doesn't affect me at all if a woman condones porn watching in her partner. But, if I really like a woman and end up befriending her, she always turns out to feel that way.
So, the important traits I look for in a friend always seem to have "down with porn" attached to them.
I am a straight woman. So, it doesn't affect me at all if a woman condones porn watching in her partner. But, if I really like a woman and end up befriending her, she always turns out to feel that way.
So, the important traits I look for in a friend always seem to have "down with porn" attached to them.
59
Hey, while we are all here, can anyone recommend sites with good free porn (or series I can buy) that isn't basically a guy masturbating into a vagina aka porn for straight girls? The shit that's easily available makes me feel awful.
60
Um, as a woman, I really have no interest in knowing ANYTHING about my brother, father, boss, or co-workers' porn habits.
My boyfriend also looks at porn regularly, and guess what- that doesn't bother me either! as long as it doesn't affect his willingness to have sex with me, I don't care what he does with his hand and his computer.
My boyfriend also looks at porn regularly, and guess what- that doesn't bother me either! as long as it doesn't affect his willingness to have sex with me, I don't care what he does with his hand and his computer.
61
I have to wonder whether taking a female co-worker, or employee aside for a talk about one's pron usage could be construed as sexual harrassment by that female worker. How could one possibly contextualize this conversation?
62
Just as an aside.
I was seeing this 30-year-old guy a year or so ago. We were talking on the phone about sex, in the hopes of having phone sex, and I was having an incredibly different time getting him to describe any of his fantasies.
Really difficult.
Like pulling teeth difficult.
I finally got... wait for it... it's so bad... maybe folks cannot handle it... that he fantasizes about MFF threesomes.
Thinking that I would help him chill the fuck out already, I responded, "Well, I can work with that, because I've had sex with a woman and I quite enjoyed it."
He never spoke to me again.
With no explanations.
And we have many friends in common, so it was only a matter of time before I heard through those friends that to him I was, his word, a whore and because I was a whore, I was dead to him.
So, let me just say that this segment of batshit crazy sex-phobic women who despise porn and let their fear of inadequacy ruin their relationships as they bully their men into lying are by no means alone, and that kinky open sex-positive kickass women like myself ALSO experience this pathological wrath and policing too.
I fantasize often about living in a society run by adults. I think that's why I lurk here all day long.
I was seeing this 30-year-old guy a year or so ago. We were talking on the phone about sex, in the hopes of having phone sex, and I was having an incredibly different time getting him to describe any of his fantasies.
Really difficult.
Like pulling teeth difficult.
I finally got... wait for it... it's so bad... maybe folks cannot handle it... that he fantasizes about MFF threesomes.
Thinking that I would help him chill the fuck out already, I responded, "Well, I can work with that, because I've had sex with a woman and I quite enjoyed it."
He never spoke to me again.
With no explanations.
And we have many friends in common, so it was only a matter of time before I heard through those friends that to him I was, his word, a whore and because I was a whore, I was dead to him.
So, let me just say that this segment of batshit crazy sex-phobic women who despise porn and let their fear of inadequacy ruin their relationships as they bully their men into lying are by no means alone, and that kinky open sex-positive kickass women like myself ALSO experience this pathological wrath and policing too.
I fantasize often about living in a society run by adults. I think that's why I lurk here all day long.
63
Thanks, Dan, for doing your part to spread the word. When I was 21 I first found my BF's porn stash and I was pissed. Because that was all I knew at the time and my religious parents had taught me that it was a sin. Then we talked it over, he explained to me why he looked at it, and I decided that while it was gross he could watch it all he wants. Fast forward seven years, we're married and we love porn! He watches porn alone, I watch porn alone, and we watch porn together. Sometimes we get off on checking the other person's porn history and we enjoy finding stuff that the other one will like and saving it for them. Most my girl friends are still threatened by porn, but I'm slowly wearing them down and forwarding them articles like this one. So once again, thanks Dan!
64
61-absolutely! I assumed the reason co-workers were mentioned at all is because sometimes we find out more than we'd like to know about co-workers' sex habits, and let's just say that doesn't encourage an atmosphere of trust and respect in the workplace. I didn't need to know, for example, that one of my supervisors enjoys going to get lap dances on a regular basis. I trusted him less, and was suspicious of his motives towards me, since he was willing to let me know this info. It was indeed an "unsettling reality", not because of the lap dances, but because I don't want that nonsense intruding into my work life.
65
@52: I don't know how to do fancy quotes here, but I was responding to your comment that "There's some guys I know -- I wouldn't give a shit what kind of porn they view because they've already shown they're basic, decent human beings. There's other guys -- the porn combined with their general behavior, my reaction is Get the Fuck Out of Dodge, Now."
I was just wondering if there are really cases where you're borderline with them and their taste in porn is the deciding factor. Genuinely curious.
I was just wondering if there are really cases where you're borderline with them and their taste in porn is the deciding factor. Genuinely curious.
66
40: Your arguments are even more horrifying. You're essentially saying that the only kind of porn your partner can consume are ones where the subjects look exactly like you and do the exact things in bed that you do. Thinking that you're "competing" with the porn is no different from thinking that porn is cheating.
67
63, irongal, what you're saying actually sounds like the message the original author of the article is trying to communicate. You were pissed after finding your boyfriend's porn, right? But the solution wasn't just for you to magically get over it, or be "dumped" like some people here are suggesting--rather, you reacted based on your limited knowledge of what porn was all about. And then, as you say, you "talked it over", and that made everything better. The original author here is asking for men to do that, though--to disclose and discuss, and not hide and lie just because women might get angry when they discover these truths. Many here--including Dan--seem to think it's the angry women who bear ALL responsibility for this problem. Why are they angry, though? Does anyone bother to investigate that, or is it just the inherently shitty nature of women?
68
Welp, Dan, you don't have to be gay to be intelligent. Obviously, you don't have to be intelligent to be a journalist.
69
@67: You missed Dan's point as well as that of most people here. The original article asserted that a female's angry reaction to porn is normal, expected, proper, and should not change. Worse, it said that it's "not a women's job to ratchet down their anger." Which is exactly what @63 did -- she ratcheted down her anger and came to understand the context.
Nobody said angry women bear "ALL" responsibility. The original article said they bear NONE, and that's what Dan was objecting to.
Nobody said angry women bear "ALL" responsibility. The original article said they bear NONE, and that's what Dan was objecting to.
70
Occasionally, though rarely, I'll have a "dude night" with some close friends. Maybe somebody is leaving town. Getting married. Or had a kid. A milestone of some sort. It's inevitable that one of the dudes will want to go to a strip club. Not my favorite thing by any stretch. Especially in this state where a grown-up man can't get a goddamn bourbon in a booby bar. But I digress.
The thing is: these guys all have to fucking lie to their wives and girlfriends. There is always this point in the evening where they have to synchronize their stories.
Except for me. I tell my wife I'm going to the booby bar. And since we, you know, actually trust each other, it's no big deal.
And ironically one of these dudes will go on some horseshit tirade about sexual objectification, parroting whatever superficial pseudo feminist knee-jerk check box his wife uses to make sure we all get on the Seattle Liberal guilt trip. And THAT guy, after unleashing himself with tequila, will always be the one who maxes out his credit card on lap dances.
My wife has even had her uptight friends call her to rat me out after they have brow beat "confessions" out of their whipped men. So she explains she doesn't care and, yes, she knew. These women go ape shit like she's a fifth columnist for the patriarchy.
We've been together twenty years. And it keeps getting better. These lie-based relationships are falling left and right. Hmmmm. Gee.
The levels of cognitive dissonance with these people is astounding.
The thing is: these guys all have to fucking lie to their wives and girlfriends. There is always this point in the evening where they have to synchronize their stories.
Except for me. I tell my wife I'm going to the booby bar. And since we, you know, actually trust each other, it's no big deal.
And ironically one of these dudes will go on some horseshit tirade about sexual objectification, parroting whatever superficial pseudo feminist knee-jerk check box his wife uses to make sure we all get on the Seattle Liberal guilt trip. And THAT guy, after unleashing himself with tequila, will always be the one who maxes out his credit card on lap dances.
My wife has even had her uptight friends call her to rat me out after they have brow beat "confessions" out of their whipped men. So she explains she doesn't care and, yes, she knew. These women go ape shit like she's a fifth columnist for the patriarchy.
We've been together twenty years. And it keeps getting better. These lie-based relationships are falling left and right. Hmmmm. Gee.
The levels of cognitive dissonance with these people is astounding.
71
As others mentioned, it's easy to say "Just don't date women who think this way", when in fact the problem is that a lot of women think this way, and don't necessarily identify themselves as such early on.
I'm very happy to have married a wonderful woman who isn't at all uptight about this issue.
I'm very happy to have married a wonderful woman who isn't at all uptight about this issue.
72
69, no, the original article didn't say that. It wasn't very well written, I grant you, but the main point was to call for honest conversation about what men are actually doing with porn. The negative reaction of women was being explained in large part as a function of their ignorance about this very point, and I suspect the author is right about that.
The author also didn't say that an angry reaction against porn was normal and shouldn't change; rather, he was discussing why men LIE about porn, due to fear of the reaction. This reaction is coming from women who were being lied to and are now getting the real news, though. That's not the same thing as having an angry reaction to porn in general.
That's why I say it sounds a lot like 63's story, since the initial reaction was anger, and there was nothing WRONG with the fact that she was angry. She was reacting that way based on what she had learned about porn. And then, when her boyfriend discussed it, just like our author suggests, things improved.
Dan gives all these caveats about some women this and some women that, but ultimately he's thinking, "I'm so glad I'm gay." So glad his wife is a man. Which means that he is indeed blaming women for having a misunderstanding, for having the problem here. It's wonderful if a woman has received a sex-positive education that allows her NOT to be upset about porn. But that doesn't mean that other women, who do react negatively, are at fault for this. What do they know about porn? Do they use it themselves? Have they found that the men in their lives are in fact lying about it and hiding it, which makes it seem like a problem?
The author also didn't say that an angry reaction against porn was normal and shouldn't change; rather, he was discussing why men LIE about porn, due to fear of the reaction. This reaction is coming from women who were being lied to and are now getting the real news, though. That's not the same thing as having an angry reaction to porn in general.
That's why I say it sounds a lot like 63's story, since the initial reaction was anger, and there was nothing WRONG with the fact that she was angry. She was reacting that way based on what she had learned about porn. And then, when her boyfriend discussed it, just like our author suggests, things improved.
Dan gives all these caveats about some women this and some women that, but ultimately he's thinking, "I'm so glad I'm gay." So glad his wife is a man. Which means that he is indeed blaming women for having a misunderstanding, for having the problem here. It's wonderful if a woman has received a sex-positive education that allows her NOT to be upset about porn. But that doesn't mean that other women, who do react negatively, are at fault for this. What do they know about porn? Do they use it themselves? Have they found that the men in their lives are in fact lying about it and hiding it, which makes it seem like a problem?
73
This article is extremely similar to a super barfy "confession" I read on some Christian relationship blog, about how when the dude confessed to his wife about viewing porn she was like: "Does he love me? Am I sexy? Our marriage only survived that night by the grace of god and even still, it's been hard. Very, very hard." And then the guy was like "I found a sponsor, it's been pretty intense, but he's there for me, and will meet me at Denny's in the middle of the night when my addiction cravings kick in." It was basically the lamest shit ever.
74
Ok I'm a woman and understand why women go ape shit.
Women can be very insecure.
"I got a guy woo-hoo. He''s mine, he likes me more than any other woman out there he's what?!, he looks at porn. Oh my God that means I'm not desirable to him, that I'm not his sole image of sexuality. He wants to -gasp- be with those other women rather than me! *sob* it's over he's just another sexist pig only interested in a fuck. I'll let him know that is UNACCEPTABLE. No porn, no wanking don't even think about looking at another woman because I may lose the one man I was able to catch."
Sigh. I am so glad I'm single. My last boyfriend liked porn and I didn't give a shit. Guys like to look period. Get over it.
Women can be very insecure.
"I got a guy woo-hoo. He''s mine, he likes me more than any other woman out there he's what?!, he looks at porn. Oh my God that means I'm not desirable to him, that I'm not his sole image of sexuality. He wants to -gasp- be with those other women rather than me! *sob* it's over he's just another sexist pig only interested in a fuck. I'll let him know that is UNACCEPTABLE. No porn, no wanking don't even think about looking at another woman because I may lose the one man I was able to catch."
Sigh. I am so glad I'm single. My last boyfriend liked porn and I didn't give a shit. Guys like to look period. Get over it.
75
@73 - Holy shit that's as epic as it is sad. Whatever twisted life-view the two of them pretend to share, at least the guy's got his bases covered for why he's got to leave the house in the middle of the night.
76
70, it's great that you and your wife can be honest about the strip club visits. But why then do you have to rant about the "horseshit tirade about sexual objectification" and "superficial pseudo feminist" reactions these "whipped" men get from their "uptight" wives? The husbands aren't being honest, right? So the failure of communication and agreement here is a two-way street, yet you've decidedly placed the blame on the women.
Do you even stop to consider for a moment that their concerns might be real--whether you agree or not, just real for them? I don't suppose it's even imaginable that sexual objectification occurs in a strip club, or that a woman might be genuinely bothered by that. Why do you assume that you and your wife are the only ones who, you know, actually trust each other, just because she's the only one who's okay with your going to the strip club? Is it possible that objections to a strip club could have less to do with lack of trust than with being bothered by strip clubs in general? Come on, I mean, you sound like you need a lot of that superficial feminist crap to help your mind.
Do you even stop to consider for a moment that their concerns might be real--whether you agree or not, just real for them? I don't suppose it's even imaginable that sexual objectification occurs in a strip club, or that a woman might be genuinely bothered by that. Why do you assume that you and your wife are the only ones who, you know, actually trust each other, just because she's the only one who's okay with your going to the strip club? Is it possible that objections to a strip club could have less to do with lack of trust than with being bothered by strip clubs in general? Come on, I mean, you sound like you need a lot of that superficial feminist crap to help your mind.
77
@72: I think you are reading your own opinion (which is pretty reasonable) into the article (which is not). The article as written absolutely says that women bear no responsibility for their angry responses, and that it is not their job "to make it safe for men to get real."
That's utter horseshit. Even just with casual friends, it is all of our jobs to not be so judgmental that people are afraid to be honest with us about who they are. This is doubly true in relationships and with intimate topics like sexuality. Bottom line: it is POSITIVELY women's job to ratchet down their anger and make it possible for men to get real. Then, they can choose to leave or disapprove or whatever. But intimidating guys into hiding porn and then attacking them for doing so is not a defensible or healthy standard for female behavior.
That's utter horseshit. Even just with casual friends, it is all of our jobs to not be so judgmental that people are afraid to be honest with us about who they are. This is doubly true in relationships and with intimate topics like sexuality. Bottom line: it is POSITIVELY women's job to ratchet down their anger and make it possible for men to get real. Then, they can choose to leave or disapprove or whatever. But intimidating guys into hiding porn and then attacking them for doing so is not a defensible or healthy standard for female behavior.
78
74, after you explain why some women might feel insecure, why is your reaction just "get over it"? Because YOU were easily able to get over it? It doesn't bother me either, but I can easily see why it genuinely bothers some people (the same could be true for a same-sex couples, or for men who are insecure about a woman's interest in porn). Maybe it's not about desperation to "catch" the only possible man, like you say. Maybe these women were never raised to be comfortable with their own sexuality, and have had little experience with porn. Maybe they've been cheated on, and lied to, and they're having a hard enough time establishing trust. I just don't see why any negative reaction to porn is considered so unacceptable, so worthy of being dumped over, or something the woman and the woman alone needs to suck up and deal with.
79
Ugh, it's really depressing how shitty Jezebel has become. SFOgirl@23 nails it. I stopped reading shortly after they had a dude guest post about how consent is a dumb American concept and French girls love being sexually harassed.
80
@78: Nobody said that "any negative reaction to porn is considered so unacceptable." People are saying that 1) guys watch porn, 2) women need to realize this, and 3) if a woman freaks out over this inevitability and is not interested in ratcheting down anger and communicating, then the guy has two choices: lie to her or dump her.
81
Hey, everybody this thread is The Suzy Show!
Make sure you post at least fifty more times, Suzy. And get more sanctimonious, please. It's really helping. We're not quite sure what your point of view is yet.
Make sure you post at least fifty more times, Suzy. And get more sanctimonious, please. It's really helping. We're not quite sure what your point of view is yet.
82
I think that even THINKING about sex, even for a moment, even so much as thinking "that woman crossing the street is attractive" is the same thing as raping a child. A hundred children -- ALL the children. Raping and killing them with your penis -- oh, CRAP, I just thought about the word "penis". I should be executed.
85
I'm much more interested in sex than my husband is. I'm much more interested in porn than my husband is. All women are not alike. All men are not alike. Geeze. You'd think people would have learned that by now.
86
@78: All cards need to go on the table before a marriage or long-term relationship. A hyper-insecure woman (or man) needs to let their partner know how insecure/jealous they are. A connoisseur of porn needs to let the other half know. And If partner 1 has to be partner 2's be-all, end-all, only...then partner 2 damn well better be informed that wanking to porn or checking out some hot young thing on the street is a dealbreaker.
87
@62 Thanks for sharing that story. There's a lot of people in here talking about how women are anti-sex and insecure and that's why they hate men using porn, but the thing is most people are anti-sex and insecure and shamed about their own and others sexuality.
Hetero men play a lot of lipservice to women who are confident in their sexuality, but when it's authentic and not simply sexualized for their enjoyment, most men bail the fuck out and resort to slut shaming. What can we do to change those people except be our honest, authentic selves?
Hetero men play a lot of lipservice to women who are confident in their sexuality, but when it's authentic and not simply sexualized for their enjoyment, most men bail the fuck out and resort to slut shaming. What can we do to change those people except be our honest, authentic selves?
88
@66 I can't be a bit insecure, eh? Especially if the guy in question goes to some lengths to hide it? It really isn't this cut and dried, you know, as much as you'd like to paint women as being COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY AND ABSOLUTELY WITHOUT REASON in any of this...
I did try to convey my thoughts on this in some detail to try and give some idea of what's going on in at least some cases. Pity you coudln't be bothered to try and imagine women as actual human beings, not as some kind of bags of inexplicable and annoying emotions.
I did try to convey my thoughts on this in some detail to try and give some idea of what's going on in at least some cases. Pity you coudln't be bothered to try and imagine women as actual human beings, not as some kind of bags of inexplicable and annoying emotions.
89
And I know men are not immune to this. There's a hilarious sequence in one of Dan's books where he describes his own porn stash as being pretty much full of HICBIA lookalikes --- and then after viewing HICBIA's, stopped doing so b/c it was shredding his self esteem...
91
45 gets it right - men letting women believe they don't watch porn is equivalent to women faking orgasms. Damaging to the relationship, and damaging to every relationship both people have afterwards.
@56, 71 – cultural change is hard but necessary. If every guy shows his gf news stories (science!) about how all men use porn, and has a discussion with her, then more and more women will understand that fact.
@56, 71 – cultural change is hard but necessary. If every guy shows his gf news stories (science!) about how all men use porn, and has a discussion with her, then more and more women will understand that fact.
92
@83 it's the "chick" and the egg. See what I did there.
Maybe, just maybe, men wouldn't lie about it if their sexuality wasn't constantly demonized. Start by assuming porn and strippers-or whatever-aren't degrading to all women by default. Don't internalize his sexual desires.
I'll try to explain. Starting with the "objectification" argument against porn. Could there be a weaker more diminished argument? It's one of the terrible sounding terms people just reflexively throw out there to use as some sort of nuance killing rhetorical cudgel with out the slightest idea what it really means. Somebody said it once. It's abd thing. So I'm gonna bash you with it!
Seriously. Look. We "objectify" humans beings daily as a way of abbreviating our human interactions. We don't always have time to "know" the person-hood of our server at a restaurant. They are, for the purpose of that interaction, the food conveyance object. We do this all day long. With thousands of people through out our lives.
And this not a problem. Until sex is involved. Because in our puritanical duplicitous society sexual interactions are some special case. Ridiculously over-romanticized at best, criminalized at worst.
The only ethical consideration in these interaction should be: is this person being exploited by me? Or am I contributing to this persons exploitation and to what degree. Objectification only matters if a person is being exploited.
Porn actors and strippers are not ALWAYS being exploited by the our consuming what they sell. Sometimes. But not all the time.
I wonder how many people get all bent out of shape over their hubby looking at porn get as worked up over his buying a new iPad - made by exploited workers with strategic mineral resources harvested from exploited colonized developing nations. Yeah. One set of objects don't seem to factor that much.
Oh. But they say we then reduce ALL women to these sexual objects when we reduce the stripper to a sexual object? Do we reduce everybody to a food conveyance object? Pah-lease.
Is ones view of humanity—men specifically— so god damned stunted that we cant actually believe we can apply context to our interactions and fantasy lives?
Sexual fantasies are not that much materially different that any other sort of fantasy. Nobody gets worked up that their husbands go to see Lord of Rings where he is essentially asked to fantasize about killing Orcs.
It's doubtful your boyfriend will ever feel the need to lie about going to see Lord of the Rings or playing Call of Duty. Even though there he is fantasizing about relentlessly murdering people. And elves. How can you live with that psycho?
(And for god's sake don't give me this horseshit about the sex drive and the primal activation of the limbic system making sex special or what ever scientific factoid somebody retrofit into a doctorate thesis once. Our violent fantasies activate these same primal systems. Hell. To a degree so do our fantasies about food. We don't know enough about neural science to make any claims about what viewing porn or anything else does.)
Look. The issue is honesty and trust. Do these women think ANY sexualized fantasy interaction their S.O. has constitutes as cheating? Well. Then guess what? S.O. is gonna fucking lie. Because he IS going to have sexual fantasies. Are they worried that a stripper might touch hubby's winkle? Are they worries that hubby might develop some sort of unrealistic projected body issues?
If the women involved drop the fucking judgement and talk to their S.O.s they may find that there is nothing to worry about at all.
And BTW for the Suzy's out there - broad-stroke feminism is a fine political philosophy but like anything context is everything. You will find rigid didactic notions don't scale well to interpersonal relationships.
But hey. You want try to govern your relationship by something written by Andrea Dworkin 30 years ago? Good luck. All these failing relationships and people wonder why.
More...
Maybe, just maybe, men wouldn't lie about it if their sexuality wasn't constantly demonized. Start by assuming porn and strippers-or whatever-aren't degrading to all women by default. Don't internalize his sexual desires.
I'll try to explain. Starting with the "objectification" argument against porn. Could there be a weaker more diminished argument? It's one of the terrible sounding terms people just reflexively throw out there to use as some sort of nuance killing rhetorical cudgel with out the slightest idea what it really means. Somebody said it once. It's abd thing. So I'm gonna bash you with it!
Seriously. Look. We "objectify" humans beings daily as a way of abbreviating our human interactions. We don't always have time to "know" the person-hood of our server at a restaurant. They are, for the purpose of that interaction, the food conveyance object. We do this all day long. With thousands of people through out our lives.
And this not a problem. Until sex is involved. Because in our puritanical duplicitous society sexual interactions are some special case. Ridiculously over-romanticized at best, criminalized at worst.
The only ethical consideration in these interaction should be: is this person being exploited by me? Or am I contributing to this persons exploitation and to what degree. Objectification only matters if a person is being exploited.
Porn actors and strippers are not ALWAYS being exploited by the our consuming what they sell. Sometimes. But not all the time.
I wonder how many people get all bent out of shape over their hubby looking at porn get as worked up over his buying a new iPad - made by exploited workers with strategic mineral resources harvested from exploited colonized developing nations. Yeah. One set of objects don't seem to factor that much.
Oh. But they say we then reduce ALL women to these sexual objects when we reduce the stripper to a sexual object? Do we reduce everybody to a food conveyance object? Pah-lease.
Is ones view of humanity—men specifically— so god damned stunted that we cant actually believe we can apply context to our interactions and fantasy lives?
Sexual fantasies are not that much materially different that any other sort of fantasy. Nobody gets worked up that their husbands go to see Lord of Rings where he is essentially asked to fantasize about killing Orcs.
It's doubtful your boyfriend will ever feel the need to lie about going to see Lord of the Rings or playing Call of Duty. Even though there he is fantasizing about relentlessly murdering people. And elves. How can you live with that psycho?
(And for god's sake don't give me this horseshit about the sex drive and the primal activation of the limbic system making sex special or what ever scientific factoid somebody retrofit into a doctorate thesis once. Our violent fantasies activate these same primal systems. Hell. To a degree so do our fantasies about food. We don't know enough about neural science to make any claims about what viewing porn or anything else does.)
Look. The issue is honesty and trust. Do these women think ANY sexualized fantasy interaction their S.O. has constitutes as cheating? Well. Then guess what? S.O. is gonna fucking lie. Because he IS going to have sexual fantasies. Are they worried that a stripper might touch hubby's winkle? Are they worries that hubby might develop some sort of unrealistic projected body issues?
If the women involved drop the fucking judgement and talk to their S.O.s they may find that there is nothing to worry about at all.
And BTW for the Suzy's out there - broad-stroke feminism is a fine political philosophy but like anything context is everything. You will find rigid didactic notions don't scale well to interpersonal relationships.
But hey. You want try to govern your relationship by something written by Andrea Dworkin 30 years ago? Good luck. All these failing relationships and people wonder why.
93
88: You can be as insecure as you want it to be, but you cannot punish other people for your own flaws. Our sex lives begin well before we ever have sexual partners, and thinking that your partner's fantasies or desires are a reflection on you or your relationship is incredibly narcissistic.
As for the implication that I need to adjust the way I think about women, I'm fairly confident that I treat myself as a human being and not as a bag of "inexplicable and annoying emotions." How nice of you to assume that someone who disagrees with you must be a man.
As for the implication that I need to adjust the way I think about women, I'm fairly confident that I treat myself as a human being and not as a bag of "inexplicable and annoying emotions." How nice of you to assume that someone who disagrees with you must be a man.
94
Am I supposed to care about the kind of porn that random guys are watching, because the last thing in the world I want to know is what my boss yanks it to. I've met women who get jealous if their man watches porn or goes to a strip club - those bitches are crazy.
95
@93 be that as it may, you are basically not allowing me one inch to have my own feelings about this, even after I go some way to try and show why I feel the way I do, so... given that you won't give me the time of day on that... then what? Have I been calling for the execution of men who watch porn? Have I been pressing for the censorship & elimination of porn? Have I said you have to change your views? None of that. I've been trying to show where I come from. If you don't wanna acknowledge that *at all*, if you don't wanna figure that I have some right to my own views on this -- it's your prerogative, but it then becomes pretty unlikely I'd ever sleep with you, let alone get friendly with you.
And since I'm bisexual, it *really* doesn't matter whether you're a man or a women, sweetie.
And since I'm bisexual, it *really* doesn't matter whether you're a man or a women, sweetie.
96
I (female person) am looking at Victorian porno pictures while IMing with my ex-lover who's at his office. Just saying.
97
@ Suzy i just wanted to thank you for rationally voicing how some of us women do feel. i think it's great that there are so many self confident women out there who do not have issues with this. i really wish that i could be one of them. Unfortunately, i have been cheated on & lied to far too many times. As well as having alot of sexual trauma in my life. As a result, i am deeply insecure. Although most of my lovers have watched porn a-plenty while we were together, i never flipped out about it. i have gone to strip clubs with many of them. Feeling the whole time that i was ugly & worthless compared to the dancers. Yet, i held my deep feelings of insecurity & betrayal inside. My view of male sexuality has become so jaded that i have lost all interest in sex or having an intimate relationship with a man. Which is for the best. While i recognize that my sexual reality is unhealthy, it is real for myself & many other women that i know. So, thank you for giving voice.
98
(The funniest thing about all this is that I don't go ballistic over men watching porn... I don't get furious or whatever about it. But I did express what goes thru my mind about it -- and I get raked thru the coals anyway. So.... something to keep in mind about this general subject, and why women might be a bit touchy on this subject, regardless of what, precisely, they think of it...)
99
@98: Well, I am a little confused about what goes through your mind about it. And your original post comes across as somewhat sex- and porn- negative. What kind of porn would you judge a guy for? So what if the porn he likes isn't stuff that turns you on?
100
@92 The chick and the egg? Is the egg a patriarchal social system set up around male dominance and the commodification of female bodies that is also built on a puritanical foundation that demonizes healthy sex? Then the answer is the latter.
And no, I do not dehumanize my server. They are a human being, not a food serving robot fulfilling my gluttony. And I don't think you understand the meaning of objectification.
And no, I do not dehumanize my server. They are a human being, not a food serving robot fulfilling my gluttony. And I don't think you understand the meaning of objectification.
101
@95 That's right. You never said pornography should be illegal. And nobody ever said your feelings should be illegal.
But if you do lose your shit when a partner views porn just don't expect anybody out here in reality to be surprised, or very sympathetic, when the resulting relationships don't work out.
When you say you express what's going through your mind about it, would you clarify that?
Most people want to avoid drama. If an SO made a big dramatic case about porn and did a whole guilt trip about it then eventually it's gonna get to me and I might go "ballistic" too. So to speak.
If every time I caught you using your iPad—something you really felt a strong desire to use— I expressed what went on through my mind about the exploitation of Chinese laborers, the evils of harvesting strategic minerals, global warming and... well you get the idea. Eventually your gonna use that iPad in secret, go ballistic, or dump my ass.
But if you do lose your shit when a partner views porn just don't expect anybody out here in reality to be surprised, or very sympathetic, when the resulting relationships don't work out.
When you say you express what's going through your mind about it, would you clarify that?
Most people want to avoid drama. If an SO made a big dramatic case about porn and did a whole guilt trip about it then eventually it's gonna get to me and I might go "ballistic" too. So to speak.
If every time I caught you using your iPad—something you really felt a strong desire to use— I expressed what went on through my mind about the exploitation of Chinese laborers, the evils of harvesting strategic minerals, global warming and... well you get the idea. Eventually your gonna use that iPad in secret, go ballistic, or dump my ass.
102
@100
Oh Jesus. Do you realize how absurdly and reflexively orthodox you sound? It's virtual satire parroting those worn out phrases. It's like some sort of cultist liturgy.
Clearly you misunderstand the term. Dehumanization and objectification are NOT the same thing.
But if this going to lead to semantic argument about feminist terminology where you pull quotes out of college text books on feminism. That's not a conversation or an even an argument. Count me out.
Oh Jesus. Do you realize how absurdly and reflexively orthodox you sound? It's virtual satire parroting those worn out phrases. It's like some sort of cultist liturgy.
Clearly you misunderstand the term. Dehumanization and objectification are NOT the same thing.
But if this going to lead to semantic argument about feminist terminology where you pull quotes out of college text books on feminism. That's not a conversation or an even an argument. Count me out.
103
Not much clear thinking went into that article. Conflating porn-WATCHING with porn "addiction" or with "paying for sex" (really?!) throws any conclusions from the study out the window. Sensationalistic, unhelpful (even destructive) fluff.
@62, I've experienced that myself several times, except maybe more subtley.
See folks, teh mens also have their own reasons for not disclosing their porn habits: sometimes they want to not "corrupt" a woman they're seeing (to maintain their own ideas about her virgin/whore status). I can think of a few relationships where the man was not OK with my being OK with his porn habits. To those guys I say, my having dirty thoughts or liking porn, or liking your taste in porn does not make me a whore just like your interest in porn does not make you a misogynistic pig.
BEG @ 40 "*what* they are complaining about is a slightly different thing than what the men think they're complaining about"
I thought you explained yourself well about this, but it's too fine a point for that crappy crappy CRAPPY article. (The article made me unreasonably angry for some reason.) I feel like sloggers could write a better article than either Newsweek or Jezebel on this topic.
The article is just so stupid. I actually feel like they made up those stories about the women calling in and the vast majority being all surprised and hurt. Just to perpetuate stereotypes and NOT address any questions about male sexuality.
Also, BEG the link you posted at @43 was blocked as "pornographic" by my work computer (which overreacts to content, big time. Like It took some work to get the Stranger unblocked). Is there a dirty picture on it, or is it just text and I can unblock it? It looks like a great link that might put some words to my frustration with this damn article.
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@62, I've experienced that myself several times, except maybe more subtley.
See folks, teh mens also have their own reasons for not disclosing their porn habits: sometimes they want to not "corrupt" a woman they're seeing (to maintain their own ideas about her virgin/whore status). I can think of a few relationships where the man was not OK with my being OK with his porn habits. To those guys I say, my having dirty thoughts or liking porn, or liking your taste in porn does not make me a whore just like your interest in porn does not make you a misogynistic pig.
BEG @ 40 "*what* they are complaining about is a slightly different thing than what the men think they're complaining about"
I thought you explained yourself well about this, but it's too fine a point for that crappy crappy CRAPPY article. (The article made me unreasonably angry for some reason.) I feel like sloggers could write a better article than either Newsweek or Jezebel on this topic.
The article is just so stupid. I actually feel like they made up those stories about the women calling in and the vast majority being all surprised and hurt. Just to perpetuate stereotypes and NOT address any questions about male sexuality.
Also, BEG the link you posted at @43 was blocked as "pornographic" by my work computer (which overreacts to content, big time. Like It took some work to get the Stranger unblocked). Is there a dirty picture on it, or is it just text and I can unblock it? It looks like a great link that might put some words to my frustration with this damn article.
105
The objection I've heard from a lot of women is: "Why does he need to look at other women? I should be enough for him!" and I've never understood that. My husband loves to look at pictures of tall, leggy, voluptuous brunettes. I'm a small, near-transparently-white redhead. I can't fulfill that particular fantasy niche for him. Why should I? He likes small redheads too. Unless one is a human chameleon, one cannot hope to fulfill a need for visual variety.
And besides, I like to look at hot people - both male and female - too. Why doesn't everyone?
Now, if he were looking at bestiality porn or barely-legal porn...that might be different. That might indicate some preferences that would disturb me. But to find out that he's attracted to a wide variety of women, and likes to look at them semiclothed, naked, having sex, whatever - that is not a newsflash. I like to look at a wide variety of women too (although I'm much more inclined to a single "type" with both men and women than he is).
And besides, I like to look at hot people - both male and female - too. Why doesn't everyone?
Now, if he were looking at bestiality porn or barely-legal porn...that might be different. That might indicate some preferences that would disturb me. But to find out that he's attracted to a wide variety of women, and likes to look at them semiclothed, naked, having sex, whatever - that is not a newsflash. I like to look at a wide variety of women too (although I'm much more inclined to a single "type" with both men and women than he is).
106
@59: Without knowing what exactly makes you feel awful or what exactly you're into, it's impossible to answer your question. "Straight girls" like a million different kinds of porn. And there are a million different kinds of porn that are easily available.
107
@103 it's just text -- well, hang on. OK there's quite a few sidebar images that are definitely NSFW. The article itself, though is quite interesting and worth getting at if you can. Hmmm... if you like, you can email me (browneyedgirl 65 @ gmail . com -- get rid of all spaces ) and I'd be happy to send you just the text.
@104 -- Agreed.
@104 -- Agreed.
108
I'd also like to point out that @1's response is a great way to shut down women. You don't think it would drive someone a little nuts to be afraid to say *anything at all* because you'll put her in a stupid box? (Or a screeching harpy box, or whatever.) And then that it can work the other way around (as per @62). -- she indicates she's fine with it and you puts her in a slut box?
If I were more paranoid, I'd say you guys were deliberately trying to drive women insane :)
If I were more paranoid, I'd say you guys were deliberately trying to drive women insane :)
109
@105: "barely legal" porn usually means young-looking girls 18-25 or so... why would that disturb you? That's about as common and conventional as it gets in porn.
Even with bestiality... would it really disturb you that much if someone has weird or bizarre fantasies sometimes?
This is really what I don't get. Why is it so awful if someone else gets turned on by different stuff than you do?
Even with bestiality... would it really disturb you that much if someone has weird or bizarre fantasies sometimes?
This is really what I don't get. Why is it so awful if someone else gets turned on by different stuff than you do?
110
Oh god, it's by Hugo Schwyzer. The guy is a preachy sanctimonious moran.
You know what the problem is? Being as women aren't entitled to sexual satisfaction the way men are, we're generally raised to not expect the ways young men seek it out. I used to have shitfits about my brother's porn use before I figured it out. *shrug* Culture is broken in this respect.
You know what the problem is? Being as women aren't entitled to sexual satisfaction the way men are, we're generally raised to not expect the ways young men seek it out. I used to have shitfits about my brother's porn use before I figured it out. *shrug* Culture is broken in this respect.
111
Hi Dan,
Thanks for the post. I've blogged a reply here:
http://joe-perez.com/blog/2011/07/why-hu…
---
Well, shit, Dan. I’m glad I’m gay too, but not because women and feminist men are inherently castrators. I can tell when you’re not at your finest when you’re resorting to ad hominem attacks and preaching to the choirboys in your safe-from-reality comment boxes.
Hugo never said men “should stand there and take it, you sex maniac.” Indeed, he is careful not to presume to judge a man’s use of pornography. Maybe you are projecting your own shadow view of men as “sex maniacs” on Hugo or on women, but whatever.
I’m not on Hugo’s side, either. I don’t like everything he’s written over the years about pornography. In fact, when there are two sides of any dispute, it’s a pretty good sign to me that people’s egos, blind spots, and deeply held but questionable presuppositions are talking.
Excerpt:
Thanks for the post. I've blogged a reply here:
http://joe-perez.com/blog/2011/07/why-hu…
---
Well, shit, Dan. I’m glad I’m gay too, but not because women and feminist men are inherently castrators. I can tell when you’re not at your finest when you’re resorting to ad hominem attacks and preaching to the choirboys in your safe-from-reality comment boxes.
Hugo never said men “should stand there and take it, you sex maniac.” Indeed, he is careful not to presume to judge a man’s use of pornography. Maybe you are projecting your own shadow view of men as “sex maniacs” on Hugo or on women, but whatever.
I’m not on Hugo’s side, either. I don’t like everything he’s written over the years about pornography. In fact, when there are two sides of any dispute, it’s a pretty good sign to me that people’s egos, blind spots, and deeply held but questionable presuppositions are talking.
Excerpt:
112
@ 111 joe_perez. i just read your blog post. Beautifully, insightfully & compassionately written. Thank you so very much for giving some much needed depth & soulfull clarity & understanding to a subject which, on slog, at least, proves to be only divisive & judgemental . Just...Thanks.
113
Okay, I'm having a huge problem with the misogyny of "I'm so glad I'm gay" and "Sometimes I'm so glad that my wife is a man". Jesus, Dan. It's not 1955 anymore. I can't fathom saying "I'm so glad I'm straight" just because a gay man does some stereotypical-but-not-universal thing I don't like (like body-shaming or fat-bashing). That would be bigoted. As would saying, "I'm so glad my husband is white" because straight black men are said to be more homophobic. Do you get why women are offended when you say these things?
Oh, and hey, Timothy @22? I liked your comment, but "Our cultural assumption is that women's sexuality is moral"? Really? Have you never heard of slut shaming?
I think we can all agree that a lot of women demonize male sexuality. So why is it so hard for us to agree that a lot of men -- a lot of men -- degrade female sexuality? The Puritans have fucked with all of us, and those men, the preachers and politicians and patriarchs and all their followers since, the ones who fear female sexuality and need to put it in its place (first by making it invisible, then by making it a spectacle reserved for men's pleasure only), are the ones who had all the power when our cultural mores were being drawn. They had a huge hand in creating this mess we have now with gender inequality and sexual inequality.
So can we for once acknowledge that feminism had something to do with righting that wrong? (Yeah, tkc, I'm talking to you.)
I know it's a dangerous word. Raises more hackles these days than the original F word. But feminist influence on our culture is the reason women today are able to own and enjoy and share their sexuality with whomever they see fit. It's the reason why men have been able to challenge their own strict gender roles. Sure, feminism can be contradictory and conflicted at times, and at times certain feminist attitudes have overlapped with puritanical attitudes (although, come on, tkc, Andrea Dworkin? I've been a feminist all my life, and I've never taken her seriously, nor have any of my feminist friends. She does not represent mainstream feminism, or many of its side streams, either).
But feminism is the reason sex workers can stand up and say, I deserve the right to safety and respect. It's also the reason some women can say, I'm not comfortable with porn that repeatedly shows women being deprived of sexual autonomy and denied pleasure. That's objectification. That's misogyny.
Why is that so hard to appreciate?
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Oh, and hey, Timothy @22? I liked your comment, but "Our cultural assumption is that women's sexuality is moral"? Really? Have you never heard of slut shaming?
I think we can all agree that a lot of women demonize male sexuality. So why is it so hard for us to agree that a lot of men -- a lot of men -- degrade female sexuality? The Puritans have fucked with all of us, and those men, the preachers and politicians and patriarchs and all their followers since, the ones who fear female sexuality and need to put it in its place (first by making it invisible, then by making it a spectacle reserved for men's pleasure only), are the ones who had all the power when our cultural mores were being drawn. They had a huge hand in creating this mess we have now with gender inequality and sexual inequality.
So can we for once acknowledge that feminism had something to do with righting that wrong? (Yeah, tkc, I'm talking to you.)
I know it's a dangerous word. Raises more hackles these days than the original F word. But feminist influence on our culture is the reason women today are able to own and enjoy and share their sexuality with whomever they see fit. It's the reason why men have been able to challenge their own strict gender roles. Sure, feminism can be contradictory and conflicted at times, and at times certain feminist attitudes have overlapped with puritanical attitudes (although, come on, tkc, Andrea Dworkin? I've been a feminist all my life, and I've never taken her seriously, nor have any of my feminist friends. She does not represent mainstream feminism, or many of its side streams, either).
But feminism is the reason sex workers can stand up and say, I deserve the right to safety and respect. It's also the reason some women can say, I'm not comfortable with porn that repeatedly shows women being deprived of sexual autonomy and denied pleasure. That's objectification. That's misogyny.
Why is that so hard to appreciate?
114
107. Awww, thanks BEG. I'm at home now. (Yes, I see the boobies. Bad, bad boobies lol.)
Your link was awesome. I knew the study was BS. I bet they made up the data utterly and completely. First of all you can't recruit human beings for any kind of research without an Institutional Review Board. Also, putting men who frequent prostitutes in the same group as men who view porn more than once a week? Sure, sure, that's valid. I think they did that to get the numbers up to 80% (of men who pay for sex), then took the porn-watchers out to get the crime statistics. No way to tell though, since none of that is revealed in the original study.
1.8M PDF http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/pdfs…
Presumably Newsweek knew all this (do they even have reporters anymore?) and made no disclaimer about the biased nature of the study, bragging instead that the study was released to them "exclusively" (rather than being published in a legitimate journal?). Pro science tip: "exclusive" science is BAD science. Good science enjoys the glaring light of public scrutiny.
I also like how Roche emphasizes poverty as more of a cause of prostitution than "immorality."
Your link was awesome. I knew the study was BS. I bet they made up the data utterly and completely. First of all you can't recruit human beings for any kind of research without an Institutional Review Board. Also, putting men who frequent prostitutes in the same group as men who view porn more than once a week? Sure, sure, that's valid. I think they did that to get the numbers up to 80% (of men who pay for sex), then took the porn-watchers out to get the crime statistics. No way to tell though, since none of that is revealed in the original study.
1.8M PDF http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/pdfs…
Presumably Newsweek knew all this (do they even have reporters anymore?) and made no disclaimer about the biased nature of the study, bragging instead that the study was released to them "exclusively" (rather than being published in a legitimate journal?). Pro science tip: "exclusive" science is BAD science. Good science enjoys the glaring light of public scrutiny.
I also like how Roche emphasizes poverty as more of a cause of prostitution than "immorality."
115
Ms Beg - I for one would have had a lot more sympathy with your posts had you not tried to stick Mr Bachmann on to MY team. I won't have him, I tell you, and anyone who tries to inflict him upon me loses almost half his or her credibility, whatever the content of the rest of the post.
I objected just as strongly to comments that the demitroll Mr Blues was likely closeted. When Ms Canuck was still posting regularly, I had to ask her how she'd like it if I described in detail how Mr Blues secretly wanted a really intense encounter with her.
I objected just as strongly to comments that the demitroll Mr Blues was likely closeted. When Ms Canuck was still posting regularly, I had to ask her how she'd like it if I described in detail how Mr Blues secretly wanted a really intense encounter with her.
116
Also:
BEG, thank you for everything you've said here.
maddy811 @62, yes.
Suzy & also, thanks for the great dialogue!
Kersy, I am always grateful for your posts.
BEG, thank you for everything you've said here.
maddy811 @62, yes.
Suzy & also, thanks for the great dialogue!
Kersy, I am always grateful for your posts.
117
Ms Maddy - I wish you luck in finding your world run by adults. I also hope you find it sufficiently fun.
118
113: A giant yes to that. And why is Andrea Dworkin (whose work, by the way, I never read for a college course even though she was more popular way back then) the face of feminism as opposed to, say, Audre Lorde? Whose work IS assigned all the time in those courses, who was trying to work out ethical polyamory arrangements long before many of us here were born, and who had more creative and inspiring ideas about sexuality than almost any typical porn I've seen.
I'm curious about how women and men come into contact with porn, and how that affects this issue. It's probably unusual for men to be introduced to porn by the woman with whom they're in a relationship, but I suspect the reverse is true for many women in past decades. If you encounter porn on your own, either initially or quickly under circumstances where you can view it in private, then the porn is about your own personal sexual fulfillment and imagination. But if your early encounters with porn are when it's being used to satisfy someone else--maybe the same person you're generally in the business of satisfying yourself--then porn might have an entirely different significance for you. I think society has already changed radically on this point, since I'd guess most women under 30 encounter internet porn on their own at some point, and have the ability to use it early on for their own private purposes. I don't think that was true in decades past, though.
I'm curious about how women and men come into contact with porn, and how that affects this issue. It's probably unusual for men to be introduced to porn by the woman with whom they're in a relationship, but I suspect the reverse is true for many women in past decades. If you encounter porn on your own, either initially or quickly under circumstances where you can view it in private, then the porn is about your own personal sexual fulfillment and imagination. But if your early encounters with porn are when it's being used to satisfy someone else--maybe the same person you're generally in the business of satisfying yourself--then porn might have an entirely different significance for you. I think society has already changed radically on this point, since I'd guess most women under 30 encounter internet porn on their own at some point, and have the ability to use it early on for their own private purposes. I don't think that was true in decades past, though.
119
Ms Irena - Agreed about, "Sometimes I'm so glad that my wife is a man." That's not the sort of thing I or my friends would ever say. "I'm so glad I'm gay," though, in my circle was the sort of thing people of either sex might have said as a mild expression of glad-not-to-be-in-THAT-boat when confronted with the difficulties of those who, through no fault of their own, were prone to relationships containing mixed genders.
I like the nuanced objection with which you close. Perhaps a lot of people might be familiar with the objection offered some years ago by the Sexism speaker on an -Ism day I helped organize. She was adamant that All Pornography Degrades Women, and never answered the Heterosexism speaker's point that a significant portion of pornography doesn't contain women.
I like the nuanced objection with which you close. Perhaps a lot of people might be familiar with the objection offered some years ago by the Sexism speaker on an -Ism day I helped organize. She was adamant that All Pornography Degrades Women, and never answered the Heterosexism speaker's point that a significant portion of pornography doesn't contain women.
120
So, just to be clear here, this is Dan Savage coming down on the side of "Men should lie to their partners about their porn use, especially if they think it might upset the partner."
Awesome advice and good to know.
Awesome advice and good to know.
121
tkc, if you think Suzy is rigid, didactic, and sanctimonious, you ain't listening. She's actually considering multiple perspectives and trying to communicate in a way that creates the possibility of mutual understanding. For sanctimony and sheer defensiveness check out the tone of post 92.
122
Replies to various earlier comments, in summary:
I do get the impression, from reading Dan's initial post and then this comment thread, that anger is not considered an acceptable reaction to finding out the previously-concealed truth about your guy's porn use. That's not my reaction, but I can certainly sympathize with it. And that's what Hugo (the first author) was talking about. The idea that women go "ballistic" in response was coming from a guy who admits to lying about porn for this very reason. The original article was poorly done, though, so whatever, set that aside.
The message that guys like porn and therefore, hetero women simply need to realize, accept, and get over it, is coming through loud and clear. However, I don't hear the same insistence that men need to realize, accept, and get over the fact that some women don't like porn and/or don't like being deceived about its use. Are all of these women just useless creatures one can only hope to avoid, or might it be worth figuring out why they feel this way about porn? I'd hope that situation could change for them, but I'd also respect women who didn't want to change their feelings about porn.
I like many things about Dan's approach to sexual ethics, especially the honesty parts, but one thing I don't like is his ongoing assumption that whatever men "naturally" desire, they're entitled to have and express, end of story! Women are fine as long as they adopt a form of sexuality that's more like this naturally "male" approach--otherwise, they need to loosen up and get GGG, or get over it.
When it comes to porn, though, why are women's attitudes The Problem? Why are many of the comments above disparaging women simply for being insecure about porn, or what it might signify about their partners? Does it not occur to Dan, or others, that in the same way many men grow up thinking porn is totally harmless and fun, many women (at least in the past) had less experience with it, and didn't learn to see it as a harmless thing they could enjoy? Everyone likes different things, granted, but a lot of typical internet porn is focused on viewing women having things done to them, or fulfilling male fantasies, and so forth. Maybe that format tends to be better for a hetero male audience than for a hetero female one, who knows? The point is, there's a lot more to this issue than simply dismissing women as insecure harpies who don't get it and want to control their men.
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I do get the impression, from reading Dan's initial post and then this comment thread, that anger is not considered an acceptable reaction to finding out the previously-concealed truth about your guy's porn use. That's not my reaction, but I can certainly sympathize with it. And that's what Hugo (the first author) was talking about. The idea that women go "ballistic" in response was coming from a guy who admits to lying about porn for this very reason. The original article was poorly done, though, so whatever, set that aside.
The message that guys like porn and therefore, hetero women simply need to realize, accept, and get over it, is coming through loud and clear. However, I don't hear the same insistence that men need to realize, accept, and get over the fact that some women don't like porn and/or don't like being deceived about its use. Are all of these women just useless creatures one can only hope to avoid, or might it be worth figuring out why they feel this way about porn? I'd hope that situation could change for them, but I'd also respect women who didn't want to change their feelings about porn.
I like many things about Dan's approach to sexual ethics, especially the honesty parts, but one thing I don't like is his ongoing assumption that whatever men "naturally" desire, they're entitled to have and express, end of story! Women are fine as long as they adopt a form of sexuality that's more like this naturally "male" approach--otherwise, they need to loosen up and get GGG, or get over it.
When it comes to porn, though, why are women's attitudes The Problem? Why are many of the comments above disparaging women simply for being insecure about porn, or what it might signify about their partners? Does it not occur to Dan, or others, that in the same way many men grow up thinking porn is totally harmless and fun, many women (at least in the past) had less experience with it, and didn't learn to see it as a harmless thing they could enjoy? Everyone likes different things, granted, but a lot of typical internet porn is focused on viewing women having things done to them, or fulfilling male fantasies, and so forth. Maybe that format tends to be better for a hetero male audience than for a hetero female one, who knows? The point is, there's a lot more to this issue than simply dismissing women as insecure harpies who don't get it and want to control their men.
123
1. Listen. 2. Leave the room. 3. Allow fury to run its course (protective eyewear recommended). 4. Return to room. 5. Discuss.
124
@102 It has to be a semantics argument because you are using common terminology incorrectly. Objectification treats and regards human beings as an object for use, not a human being with autonomy or personality or sentience or agency. This is by definition dehumanization.
@116 Thank you! There's a lot of thoughtful posts here.
@116 Thank you! There's a lot of thoughtful posts here.
126
@122, this is a great point that bears repeating:
The result is, a lot of typical porn does not portray women experiencing genuine sexual pleasure. A lot of it looks, to my perspective, just tiring for the woman, or boring, and often uncomfortable. He might jizz all over the place, but her moans are fake, fake, fake. It's hard to understand how a guy can get turned on by that.
I'm not a lesbian, but I often watch gay and lesbian porn just because it shows people truly enjoying themselves, however crazy it might get.
Suzy, you ask @118, "I'm curious about how women and men come into contact with porn". Here's my experience: I discovered my parents' porn stash when I was about 11, and I looked at it whenever I could. Now, some of it was kind of fucked up (Penthouse Forum letters), and definitely not appropriate for a child, and so I kind of wish I hadn't read some of it (or I had found something more woman-friendly or age-appropriate). But it sure made my bath times a lot more interesting and adventurous!
Fast forward to my next encounter with porn, ten years later. My boyfriend sees a porn mag while we're shopping. He looks at it, wants to buy it. I look at it, say ooh, she's pretty, buy it! He buys it and we take our groceries to my place, where I start preparing dinner and he settles in on the couch. I get the food cooking, then notice he's gone quiet, and see that he's looking at the mag. So I sit down next to him and say, hey, let me look at this with you, thinking we are going to have a hot time that night. And he says, no, I want to look at this alone!
So I go back into the kitchen, start checking on the dinner, then suddenly come to my senses and tell him to get the fuck out because he's a selfish asshole. He leaves, and later laughingly admits that I was right to kick him out.
Two years later when we're living together I find his huge secret porn stash, and guess what? I was pissed off. But then I got over it and started looking at it myself, and sometimes with him (when he let me).
And one day I see a picture of a cute tiny woman with nice boobs, and say, she's cute, and he says, you know, you could look like that if you lost some weight. (I was 5'3, 127 lbs.)
Yes, he had a gut. Yes, I told him he looked fine, always.
Porn could have enhanced our sex life. But you know what? He didn't want to enhance our sex life. He wanted to enhance his sex life.
What a waste.
The partner I have now doesn't like porn -- yes, Dan, these guys exist. He has a pretty low sex drive, though.
These days, I look at porn alone. I'm okay with that.
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A lot of typical internet porn is focused on viewing women having things done to them, or fulfilling male fantasies
The result is, a lot of typical porn does not portray women experiencing genuine sexual pleasure. A lot of it looks, to my perspective, just tiring for the woman, or boring, and often uncomfortable. He might jizz all over the place, but her moans are fake, fake, fake. It's hard to understand how a guy can get turned on by that.
I'm not a lesbian, but I often watch gay and lesbian porn just because it shows people truly enjoying themselves, however crazy it might get.
Suzy, you ask @118, "I'm curious about how women and men come into contact with porn". Here's my experience: I discovered my parents' porn stash when I was about 11, and I looked at it whenever I could. Now, some of it was kind of fucked up (Penthouse Forum letters), and definitely not appropriate for a child, and so I kind of wish I hadn't read some of it (or I had found something more woman-friendly or age-appropriate). But it sure made my bath times a lot more interesting and adventurous!
Fast forward to my next encounter with porn, ten years later. My boyfriend sees a porn mag while we're shopping. He looks at it, wants to buy it. I look at it, say ooh, she's pretty, buy it! He buys it and we take our groceries to my place, where I start preparing dinner and he settles in on the couch. I get the food cooking, then notice he's gone quiet, and see that he's looking at the mag. So I sit down next to him and say, hey, let me look at this with you, thinking we are going to have a hot time that night. And he says, no, I want to look at this alone!
So I go back into the kitchen, start checking on the dinner, then suddenly come to my senses and tell him to get the fuck out because he's a selfish asshole. He leaves, and later laughingly admits that I was right to kick him out.
Two years later when we're living together I find his huge secret porn stash, and guess what? I was pissed off. But then I got over it and started looking at it myself, and sometimes with him (when he let me).
And one day I see a picture of a cute tiny woman with nice boobs, and say, she's cute, and he says, you know, you could look like that if you lost some weight. (I was 5'3, 127 lbs.)
Yes, he had a gut. Yes, I told him he looked fine, always.
Porn could have enhanced our sex life. But you know what? He didn't want to enhance our sex life. He wanted to enhance his sex life.
What a waste.
The partner I have now doesn't like porn -- yes, Dan, these guys exist. He has a pretty low sex drive, though.
These days, I look at porn alone. I'm okay with that.
127
@122, who wrote: "However, I don't hear the same insistence that men need to realize, accept, and get over the fact that some women don't like porn and/or don't like being deceived about its use. Are all of these women just useless creatures one can only hope to avoid, or might it be worth figuring out why they feel this way about porn?"
No, they're in principle OK -- as long as they're sincere about the way they feel from the beginning, and as long as the men in their lives are told (by said women) that they will become angry at their porn use, so that said men can have some time to think of what they're going to do and how they're going to react to that.
In principle it is a taste thing. If someone is a vegetarian, s/he probably shouldn't be with a meat-eater. If someone is a theist, s/he may have a problem in intimate relations with atheists.
By the same token, if someone is anti-porn (or at least feels bad about it), then s/he is going to have a hard time in relationships with porn users.
So, my 2c: such a person should disclose, early on in the relationship, that porn is a no-no, a red flag, or a deal breaker. So that those among us who like porn can avoid this person, and those who don't like porn can find her.
If his/her partner deceived him/her about porn, then I think s/he has the right to be angry IF s/he had told said partner that this would be a no-no. Likewise, said partner also has the right to go away, move on, etc. if s/he thinks this anti-porn stance is a no-no, a red flag, a deal-breaker, etc.
Or, if you prefer: the two partners are in symmetrical situations. The anti-porn one has as much a right to 'get angry' at his/her partner's porn consumption, as said partner has to 'get angry' at the anti-porn partner's insecurity.
In an ideal world, they would deal with the issue like adults -- discussing pros and cons, investigating their own feelings, and not jumping to conclusions about who is a 'scumbag' and who is a 'tyrannical controller'.
This is not an ideal world, though, and this particular topic is still in fluctuation. Hence, there's a lot of lying, wailing, and gnashing of teeth when the topic is mentioned.
As someone said above, I sometimes wished so much I lived in a society run by adults!...
More...
No, they're in principle OK -- as long as they're sincere about the way they feel from the beginning, and as long as the men in their lives are told (by said women) that they will become angry at their porn use, so that said men can have some time to think of what they're going to do and how they're going to react to that.
In principle it is a taste thing. If someone is a vegetarian, s/he probably shouldn't be with a meat-eater. If someone is a theist, s/he may have a problem in intimate relations with atheists.
By the same token, if someone is anti-porn (or at least feels bad about it), then s/he is going to have a hard time in relationships with porn users.
So, my 2c: such a person should disclose, early on in the relationship, that porn is a no-no, a red flag, or a deal breaker. So that those among us who like porn can avoid this person, and those who don't like porn can find her.
If his/her partner deceived him/her about porn, then I think s/he has the right to be angry IF s/he had told said partner that this would be a no-no. Likewise, said partner also has the right to go away, move on, etc. if s/he thinks this anti-porn stance is a no-no, a red flag, a deal-breaker, etc.
Or, if you prefer: the two partners are in symmetrical situations. The anti-porn one has as much a right to 'get angry' at his/her partner's porn consumption, as said partner has to 'get angry' at the anti-porn partner's insecurity.
In an ideal world, they would deal with the issue like adults -- discussing pros and cons, investigating their own feelings, and not jumping to conclusions about who is a 'scumbag' and who is a 'tyrannical controller'.
This is not an ideal world, though, and this particular topic is still in fluctuation. Hence, there's a lot of lying, wailing, and gnashing of teeth when the topic is mentioned.
As someone said above, I sometimes wished so much I lived in a society run by adults!...
128
The result is, a lot of typical porn does not portray women experiencing genuine sexual pleasure.
Most books published every year are not really 'good' in the literary sense. They're formulaic, repetitive, unimaginative, uncreative... often downright boring. Not that long ago (and even today), most such books are not really gender-equal and often portray situations not at all flattering to women.
The answer was not to stop book publishing, but to start writing books that convey a different viewpoint, with less stereotypically gender-oriented images.
If you think there are too many images in porn that give 'the wrong message', then what you should do is simply change porn by producing the kind of images you'd like to see. (A good exmaple of that is the Sex is Not the Enemy blog).
Because, after all, if what you don't like is the message, not the medium, then you shouldn't condemn the medium, but the message. And the best way to do this is to use this medium to send out the kind of message that you think should be sent. In the spirit of free speech and cognitive growth.
What do you think?
Most books published every year are not really 'good' in the literary sense. They're formulaic, repetitive, unimaginative, uncreative... often downright boring. Not that long ago (and even today), most such books are not really gender-equal and often portray situations not at all flattering to women.
The answer was not to stop book publishing, but to start writing books that convey a different viewpoint, with less stereotypically gender-oriented images.
If you think there are too many images in porn that give 'the wrong message', then what you should do is simply change porn by producing the kind of images you'd like to see. (A good exmaple of that is the Sex is Not the Enemy blog).
Because, after all, if what you don't like is the message, not the medium, then you shouldn't condemn the medium, but the message. And the best way to do this is to use this medium to send out the kind of message that you think should be sent. In the spirit of free speech and cognitive growth.
What do you think?
129
Irene, who said: Porn could have enhanced our sex life. But you know what? He didn't want to enhance our sex life. He wanted to enhance his sex life.
I'm sorry you went through this experience. I had a similar one, with a girlfriend who, despite having quite a high libido level, had a number of hang-ups that twisted her perception of herself and sex. She also wanted sexual things for herself that she just didn't want to share, for various reasons that aren't relevant here.
So I understand your situation. I just wanted to say I'm sad for you. Indeed, seeing porn together could be an enhancement of you and your partner's shared sex life. It had been for me and my wife. But it often isn't, because, porn or no porn, some people are assholes or douchebags.
I wished everybody were an adult, capable of self- and alter-criticism, and endowed with empathy for the feelings of others. Sadly, this is not the case.
I'm sorry you went through this experience. I had a similar one, with a girlfriend who, despite having quite a high libido level, had a number of hang-ups that twisted her perception of herself and sex. She also wanted sexual things for herself that she just didn't want to share, for various reasons that aren't relevant here.
So I understand your situation. I just wanted to say I'm sad for you. Indeed, seeing porn together could be an enhancement of you and your partner's shared sex life. It had been for me and my wife. But it often isn't, because, porn or no porn, some people are assholes or douchebags.
I wished everybody were an adult, capable of self- and alter-criticism, and endowed with empathy for the feelings of others. Sadly, this is not the case.
130
I'm so glad that real women aren't just reactionary vaginas on legs which live only in the imagination of some unfortunate soul whose psyche never recovered after being discovered by mommy when he was waxing his pole.
131
@126 I totally agree with your first couple paragraphs. The porn that BEG described in her first post, based on which she might judge someone? That's the kind of porn I thought of when she described her reaction to it.
@128: I also agree that one shouldn't condemn the medium but the message, but porn with a different viewpoint is already out there. That the vast majority seems to still be the kind wherein the chick doesn't seem to be having any actual fun indicates to me that the majority of porn consumers are too lazy to seek out or don't like porn with a different viewpoint.
And to those guys who say that if men didn't lie about porn, they wouldn't be able to get into relationships with women: that is so definitely YOUR problem. Lying to women about porn causes women to have falsely inflated ideas of how many men out there don't watch porn. If men stopped lying about their porn usage, women would have to realize that their odds of getting a guy who watches no porn are incredibly low and adjust their attitudes accordingly. Sure, maybe that will turn some women off of men altogether, but I don't know how many men want in on the incredibly-bitter-woman market anyway.
@128: I also agree that one shouldn't condemn the medium but the message, but porn with a different viewpoint is already out there. That the vast majority seems to still be the kind wherein the chick doesn't seem to be having any actual fun indicates to me that the majority of porn consumers are too lazy to seek out or don't like porn with a different viewpoint.
And to those guys who say that if men didn't lie about porn, they wouldn't be able to get into relationships with women: that is so definitely YOUR problem. Lying to women about porn causes women to have falsely inflated ideas of how many men out there don't watch porn. If men stopped lying about their porn usage, women would have to realize that their odds of getting a guy who watches no porn are incredibly low and adjust their attitudes accordingly. Sure, maybe that will turn some women off of men altogether, but I don't know how many men want in on the incredibly-bitter-woman market anyway.
132
This makes me very happy that I like porn almost as much as my boyfriend. In fact we watch it together, sometimes to get turned on and sometimes we seek out really awful porn and give it the MST3K treatment.
Also I'm having a serious problem with the porn = buying sex thing. It's buying pictures/videos of people having sex, it's not having sex yourself. I have a suggestion to all the guys out there: if your girlfriend/wife/whatever have a problem with your porn collection tell her she also has to toss out every romance book she has that depicts sex. That might clue her into the difference between fantasy and reality.
Also I'm having a serious problem with the porn = buying sex thing. It's buying pictures/videos of people having sex, it's not having sex yourself. I have a suggestion to all the guys out there: if your girlfriend/wife/whatever have a problem with your porn collection tell her she also has to toss out every romance book she has that depicts sex. That might clue her into the difference between fantasy and reality.
133
i know that most people don't read the unregistered comments, but...Let me get this straight ~ If you are a healthy, sexually mature adult you appreciate porn. Any deviation from that norm, generally by the female, you are failing to be ggg ( or just generally failing as a sexual human). Has anyone here ever been in the sex industry? Or been closely connected with, i.e. in a relationship, with anyone who is or has been? Or are you all sitting back, watching these women get pounded & declaring that it's all good...for you, for them & it damn well better be for your lover. Reality check. The sex industry is NOT filled with women happily getting fucked for your viewing pleasure. It IS women who are pimped & loaded just to make it to the next shot...for your viewing pleasure. Ever been on a porn shoot? Any of you? No. And you wouldn't want to be. Any more than you want to see where your meat comes from. Porn is great. Like hotdogs. The mystery meat that everyone wants to enjoy, but nobody really wants to know where it comes from. Have fun with that. Condemn women for knowing that, hey! something is wrong here. In the meantime, i have dear friends who have barely escaped with their lives. i have *friends* who probably won't. All for your far removed, sanctimonious viewing pleasure!
134
@133 Not in the porn industry but I DO know people who are or have been in the past. Guess what? All of them speak very positively about their experiences. They weren't pimped, they weren't abused (at least not non-consensually), and they didn't use drugs. Nor have they ever talked about knowing anyone who was, what they do talk about is people like you smearing their industry and making them fear losing their non-porn jobs if anyone finds out about their past.
135
133, Are you suggesting that grown women are incapable of making their own decisions? Are you saying that they are so gullible that they are easily duped into doing porn? Or, is it that because you wouldn't do porn, any woman who would is somehow defective, or beneath you? Luckily they have you, and your superior intellect to protect these lesser women, who can't think for themselves.
137
I just wanted to say that this is a really thought-provoking and interesting discussion, so much so that I find myself agreeing with people who are odds with each other.
As for the dreaded debate about anti-porn feminism and anti-porn women, I think some clarifications are in order.
Consider the dreaded girlfriends or wives who go ballastic upon discovery that their men consume porn, especially those women who insist that porn consumption is cheating. Call me crazy, but I sincerely doubt that these women are up to speed on academic feminist literature but are, instead, just acting out on their own insecurities and fucked up socialization around sex. For those women who justify their temper tantrums, emotional blackmail and bullying by waxing righteous about the objectification of women in porn or the mistreatment of women in the porn industry, well, that's just one more weapon in the arsenal, my friends, not sincere conviction. I seriously doubt many said women have Judith Butler on their nightstands or have spent time reading about women who write slash fanfic.
My next point. Yes, there ARE feminist academics who are absolutely insistent that ALL porn degrades women and ALWAYS does harm to ALL female sex workers. However, if you had been in rooms where said women are advancing such arguments, you would quickly learn that said women are not taken very seriously as scholars, and very (very) quickly you will have other scholars pointing out that not all porn is degrading to women, that many women produce porn to challenge the most degrading stuff out there, that all straight men don't all necessarily like that degrading stuff either, that their are women who happily consume the degrading stuff, that there are sex workers and activists doing their damnedest to curb the known abuses in their own industries, that the success of porno tube and youporn have greatly expanded the kinds of depictions that can be found, that many sex workers see themselves as empowered feminists, and, my favorite favorite favorite axiom of all: that no person in history has ever successfully debated away another person's sexual desire.
On the other hand, there are also credible feminist academics who document *real* social harm done to both porn producers and consumers, both men and women. Among them include, as just an interesting example, the degree to which it can set up bad expectations for young straight boys about what constitutes "good" sex for women.
So, again, to distill the point: I think it's a poor argument that emerges when a person equates women personally threatened by porn with anti-porn feminism, and, having been in many many many academic discussions of porn, the most absolutist anti-porn feminists are not, at least to my mind, deemed very credible in the contemporary field.
I would also say that perhaps we'd be less eager to throw blame around and demonize groups of vulnerable people if we acknowledged that those who try to police others to manage their insecurities or maintain some puritanical worldview are ultimately pitiable figures because their actions are self-defeating and ultimately self-destructive. For example, when in my own life I found myself sleeping with a straight guy who "goes ballistic" about my owning a vibrator, my initial reaction wasn't to lie to him or to try to debate him on it. In that moment I was too consumed by my profound disappointment in the guy's lack of adventurousness and playfulness and openness--that his refusal to even discuss the matter meant that we were gonna get bored in bed pretty fast and that he was gonna get dumped not long after that.
More...
As for the dreaded debate about anti-porn feminism and anti-porn women, I think some clarifications are in order.
Consider the dreaded girlfriends or wives who go ballastic upon discovery that their men consume porn, especially those women who insist that porn consumption is cheating. Call me crazy, but I sincerely doubt that these women are up to speed on academic feminist literature but are, instead, just acting out on their own insecurities and fucked up socialization around sex. For those women who justify their temper tantrums, emotional blackmail and bullying by waxing righteous about the objectification of women in porn or the mistreatment of women in the porn industry, well, that's just one more weapon in the arsenal, my friends, not sincere conviction. I seriously doubt many said women have Judith Butler on their nightstands or have spent time reading about women who write slash fanfic.
My next point. Yes, there ARE feminist academics who are absolutely insistent that ALL porn degrades women and ALWAYS does harm to ALL female sex workers. However, if you had been in rooms where said women are advancing such arguments, you would quickly learn that said women are not taken very seriously as scholars, and very (very) quickly you will have other scholars pointing out that not all porn is degrading to women, that many women produce porn to challenge the most degrading stuff out there, that all straight men don't all necessarily like that degrading stuff either, that their are women who happily consume the degrading stuff, that there are sex workers and activists doing their damnedest to curb the known abuses in their own industries, that the success of porno tube and youporn have greatly expanded the kinds of depictions that can be found, that many sex workers see themselves as empowered feminists, and, my favorite favorite favorite axiom of all: that no person in history has ever successfully debated away another person's sexual desire.
On the other hand, there are also credible feminist academics who document *real* social harm done to both porn producers and consumers, both men and women. Among them include, as just an interesting example, the degree to which it can set up bad expectations for young straight boys about what constitutes "good" sex for women.
So, again, to distill the point: I think it's a poor argument that emerges when a person equates women personally threatened by porn with anti-porn feminism, and, having been in many many many academic discussions of porn, the most absolutist anti-porn feminists are not, at least to my mind, deemed very credible in the contemporary field.
I would also say that perhaps we'd be less eager to throw blame around and demonize groups of vulnerable people if we acknowledged that those who try to police others to manage their insecurities or maintain some puritanical worldview are ultimately pitiable figures because their actions are self-defeating and ultimately self-destructive. For example, when in my own life I found myself sleeping with a straight guy who "goes ballistic" about my owning a vibrator, my initial reaction wasn't to lie to him or to try to debate him on it. In that moment I was too consumed by my profound disappointment in the guy's lack of adventurousness and playfulness and openness--that his refusal to even discuss the matter meant that we were gonna get bored in bed pretty fast and that he was gonna get dumped not long after that.
138
"The partner I have now doesn't like porn -- yes, Dan, these guys exist. He has a pretty low sex drive, though.
These days, I look at porn alone. I'm okay with that."
A sad ending, but insanely relatable for the inevitable compromises we make in relationships. Thanks for sharing your story Irena.
I am curious about ages around here. At 28, I noticed that my high school and college girlfriends were a 'no porn talk' zone, but now that I'm more comfortable and the women I'm dating are more comfortable with ourselves and relationships, that conversation usually happens in the first month. Only one has said outright she dislikes it. My gf now loves stuff that's actually a little too aggressive for me... so go fig. It could mostly just be a maturation and no longer feeling insecure thing.
These days, I look at porn alone. I'm okay with that."
A sad ending, but insanely relatable for the inevitable compromises we make in relationships. Thanks for sharing your story Irena.
I am curious about ages around here. At 28, I noticed that my high school and college girlfriends were a 'no porn talk' zone, but now that I'm more comfortable and the women I'm dating are more comfortable with ourselves and relationships, that conversation usually happens in the first month. Only one has said outright she dislikes it. My gf now loves stuff that's actually a little too aggressive for me... so go fig. It could mostly just be a maturation and no longer feeling insecure thing.
139
@138 - I noticed something similar in my own life - when I was in college, back in 2000 or so, the notion of talking to my girlfriends about porn use seemed mostly unthinkable; bringing it up would have branded me to them as either pathetic or creepy. I'm not sure the extent to which this was due to where I lived, the age of the women I dated, the social norms of the time, or just my own insecurities. I think a lot of guys had similar experience, which is perhaps why there's a disproportionate sense of aggrievement coming out in the "just get over it!" posts.
Today, though, most of the women I meet are more accepting of it, or actively interested themselves.
Today, though, most of the women I meet are more accepting of it, or actively interested themselves.
140
"...either lying directly or being 'economical with the truth' about their private behavior..."
Who isn't economical with their private behavior? If I wanted everybody to know my private behavior it wouldn't be private.
I'm going to go tell my wife I love her right now because she wouldn't put up with this nonsense either.
Who isn't economical with their private behavior? If I wanted everybody to know my private behavior it wouldn't be private.
I'm going to go tell my wife I love her right now because she wouldn't put up with this nonsense either.
141
When I was a teenager, I was "one of the guys", a total tom boy. And my male friends always came crying to me to try and convince their girlfriends that a) blowjobs are a nice thing to do for someone you love and b) porn is not cheating.
Now, I don't watch porn WITH my boyfriend, but that is only because we have very different tastes in that area :P
Now, I don't watch porn WITH my boyfriend, but that is only because we have very different tastes in that area :P
142
@138 & 139, I really appreciate what you guys are saying here.
"the notion of talking to my girlfriends about porn use seemed mostly unthinkable; bringing it up would have branded me to them as either pathetic or creepy" -- yep, it would have. And that's sad. I am so, so glad that is changing.
I have to say this again: the problem is that most porn is made for men only. Many women see it as part of a "girls not allowed" culture, where the secrecy surrounding it makes us suspicious, like, just what exactly are you hiding there? It must be bad! And often what we see seems to confirm that. Women can enjoy traditional porn, for sure, but it's aimed at the male viewer, and it depicts pretty traditional and sexist attitudes toward female sexuality that a lot of women object to. This is where the "pathetic or creepy" suspicions come in. I would say the porn industry, because of it's seedy place on the margins of what we consider to be morally acceptable, for a long time attracted some pretty seedy people. I don't think that's true today nearly as much -- who would dispute that porn has improved in the last decade or two, in terms of its quality and diversity? But that that aspect of seedy degradation is still a reality that tends to overshadow the good stuff. I don't think women object to the sex, per se, but the objectification and degradation of women in the films/pictures.
Thing is, women young and old like sexy stuff. We love sexy books and movies when they're not insulting to us, and whether we like the cheesy romantic stuff or not (and many of us do not), all of us like sex scenes that turn us on. Those Harlequin Desire books (or whatever they're called) -- they are pornographic. Period. That's why we buy them. Women share them with their daughters (at my house my mom and my sisters passed these books around, but we never called them pornography or even erotica, we called them romances). There is a huge market out there for women's pornography waiting to be exploited, and while it doesn't all have to be smart, it does have to be respectful (and yeah, being produced by women is probably the best way to ensure that). And by diversity, I mean soft and hard porn, novels and stories and pictures and short movies and full-length films, stuff for girls and stuff for women, kinky and vanilla.
But see, the idea that women like sex and want to consume erotic media that appeals to their own desires, rather than presenting them as spectacles and objects for men to enjoy without reciprocation, is not one our culture is really ready for in a mainstream way. And that points to how far women still are from full equality, especially in terms of our ownership over our own bodies.
And the great irony is, men suffer because of this, too. Because their desires are not well-represented by mainstream porn. I know a lot of guys who watch it but have really mixed feelings about the degradation, and I know guys love seeing women who are genuinely turned on. It would be fantastic if the content of porn was balanced enough that it lost its stigma for women, so that more men and women could enjoy it together without anyone "going ballistic".
I really, really wish Dan would acknowledge that women might have reasons for objecting to pornography as it currently exists in the mainstream: a man's game, for men's pleasure only, no girls allowed.
More...
"the notion of talking to my girlfriends about porn use seemed mostly unthinkable; bringing it up would have branded me to them as either pathetic or creepy" -- yep, it would have. And that's sad. I am so, so glad that is changing.
I have to say this again: the problem is that most porn is made for men only. Many women see it as part of a "girls not allowed" culture, where the secrecy surrounding it makes us suspicious, like, just what exactly are you hiding there? It must be bad! And often what we see seems to confirm that. Women can enjoy traditional porn, for sure, but it's aimed at the male viewer, and it depicts pretty traditional and sexist attitudes toward female sexuality that a lot of women object to. This is where the "pathetic or creepy" suspicions come in. I would say the porn industry, because of it's seedy place on the margins of what we consider to be morally acceptable, for a long time attracted some pretty seedy people. I don't think that's true today nearly as much -- who would dispute that porn has improved in the last decade or two, in terms of its quality and diversity? But that that aspect of seedy degradation is still a reality that tends to overshadow the good stuff. I don't think women object to the sex, per se, but the objectification and degradation of women in the films/pictures.
Thing is, women young and old like sexy stuff. We love sexy books and movies when they're not insulting to us, and whether we like the cheesy romantic stuff or not (and many of us do not), all of us like sex scenes that turn us on. Those Harlequin Desire books (or whatever they're called) -- they are pornographic. Period. That's why we buy them. Women share them with their daughters (at my house my mom and my sisters passed these books around, but we never called them pornography or even erotica, we called them romances). There is a huge market out there for women's pornography waiting to be exploited, and while it doesn't all have to be smart, it does have to be respectful (and yeah, being produced by women is probably the best way to ensure that). And by diversity, I mean soft and hard porn, novels and stories and pictures and short movies and full-length films, stuff for girls and stuff for women, kinky and vanilla.
But see, the idea that women like sex and want to consume erotic media that appeals to their own desires, rather than presenting them as spectacles and objects for men to enjoy without reciprocation, is not one our culture is really ready for in a mainstream way. And that points to how far women still are from full equality, especially in terms of our ownership over our own bodies.
And the great irony is, men suffer because of this, too. Because their desires are not well-represented by mainstream porn. I know a lot of guys who watch it but have really mixed feelings about the degradation, and I know guys love seeing women who are genuinely turned on. It would be fantastic if the content of porn was balanced enough that it lost its stigma for women, so that more men and women could enjoy it together without anyone "going ballistic".
I really, really wish Dan would acknowledge that women might have reasons for objecting to pornography as it currently exists in the mainstream: a man's game, for men's pleasure only, no girls allowed.
143
@131 (alguna_rubia) (¿Eres latina, o te gusta hablar español?)
I think the higher visibility (and perhaps availability) of the 'boring' kind of porn that you describe tells us more or less the same that the higher visibility (and perhaps availability) of 'low art' in general tells us: all those formulaic detective stories, all those romance novels, all those repetitive a-dime-a-dozen adventure stories that clutter bookstores all over the world, what do they tell us about people and their tastes?
I think some analysis want to see more, much more, in the large amount of 'boring' porn out there. I personally think it says the same as the large amount of 'boring' books, TV programs, movies, and so on out there: namely, that being formulaic and predictable does pay off.
Yes, that's it. Basically, to me, it's the same phenomenon.
I agree with you that the world would be better if men didn't lie about their porn consumption. I would frankly support more honesty in this respect. But here's a comparison: just as many gays don't come out because they're (often justifiably) afraid of the consequences in their environment (family, workplace, etc.) if they do come out.
Of course it is better to come out. The more out gays there are out there, the more straight people will realize they already have a gay friend, and one that isn't, all in all, threatening their straightness. It will contribute to the normalization of the whole thing.
So I'm in favor of more, nay all, gays coming out. Yet I do have sympathy for those who don't, thinking of the consequences. Likewise, even though I support more honesty, I do have sympathy for the guys who aren't out with their porn consumption. Remember: it's not simply that their female partners could freak out; but said partners could start spreading the story around (I know at least one case from personal experience), and public attitudes toward people who watch porn are still in many places not exactly positive.
Again, I'm in favor of honesty and sincerity. But I do understand their motives. They're not just being dishonest and deceptive because of the evil that lives in their hearts, I think.
More...
I think the higher visibility (and perhaps availability) of the 'boring' kind of porn that you describe tells us more or less the same that the higher visibility (and perhaps availability) of 'low art' in general tells us: all those formulaic detective stories, all those romance novels, all those repetitive a-dime-a-dozen adventure stories that clutter bookstores all over the world, what do they tell us about people and their tastes?
I think some analysis want to see more, much more, in the large amount of 'boring' porn out there. I personally think it says the same as the large amount of 'boring' books, TV programs, movies, and so on out there: namely, that being formulaic and predictable does pay off.
Yes, that's it. Basically, to me, it's the same phenomenon.
I agree with you that the world would be better if men didn't lie about their porn consumption. I would frankly support more honesty in this respect. But here's a comparison: just as many gays don't come out because they're (often justifiably) afraid of the consequences in their environment (family, workplace, etc.) if they do come out.
Of course it is better to come out. The more out gays there are out there, the more straight people will realize they already have a gay friend, and one that isn't, all in all, threatening their straightness. It will contribute to the normalization of the whole thing.
So I'm in favor of more, nay all, gays coming out. Yet I do have sympathy for those who don't, thinking of the consequences. Likewise, even though I support more honesty, I do have sympathy for the guys who aren't out with their porn consumption. Remember: it's not simply that their female partners could freak out; but said partners could start spreading the story around (I know at least one case from personal experience), and public attitudes toward people who watch porn are still in many places not exactly positive.
Again, I'm in favor of honesty and sincerity. But I do understand their motives. They're not just being dishonest and deceptive because of the evil that lives in their hearts, I think.
144
@142 interesting post Irena, but I'm gonna play devil's advocate...
So if most mainstream porn reduces women to objects to be used by men for male pleasure only, is it true that just by virtue of the fact that these books are marketed for women that they're inherently a politically progressive counterpoint? As I remember it, the "standard" of that genre features a woman pining over a male bimbo who is so overcome with desire for her that he must rape her, and then in the aftermath of that realizes that he he can settle down with her (and only her) and they live happily ever after.
Personally, I take as much personal offense to the sexuality in woman's bodice rippers as I do watching a woman fucked in the throat until she vomits.
So if most mainstream porn reduces women to objects to be used by men for male pleasure only, is it true that just by virtue of the fact that these books are marketed for women that they're inherently a politically progressive counterpoint? As I remember it, the "standard" of that genre features a woman pining over a male bimbo who is so overcome with desire for her that he must rape her, and then in the aftermath of that realizes that he he can settle down with her (and only her) and they live happily ever after.
Personally, I take as much personal offense to the sexuality in woman's bodice rippers as I do watching a woman fucked in the throat until she vomits.
145
I think it's a poor argument that emerges when a person equates women personally threatened by porn with anti-porn feminism, and, having been in many many many academic discussions of porn, the most absolutist anti-porn feminists are not, at least to my mind, deemed very credible in the contemporary field.
I'm glad to hear that, maddy811. But I must say that the news from academic feminism often haven't really trickled down to the 'pop feminists' who you sometimes meet on the streets. It may very well be that women who scream at all porn are indeed just playing their own insecurities and using feminism as an excuse, without really knowing what is going on in it. But then again, since said women (and men!) do say the word 'feminism', the association in people's minds -- in reality, in the trenches and barricades of real life -- becomes stronger.
Maybe modern, less absolutist feminism needs to have more PR. Maybe it's necessary to bring the kinds of messages you've seen in feminist conferences to the world at large, so that people don't get -- as they so often do -- the wrong impression.
Note that such things have happened to other social movements and social theories in the past. What does 'socialism' mean these days, for instance? The amount of popular claims made in all kinds of directions (with little or no input from people who actually identified themselves as socialists) has led to the label losing practically all meaning.
Something like this might happen to feminism -- if one is not careful.
I'm glad to hear that, maddy811. But I must say that the news from academic feminism often haven't really trickled down to the 'pop feminists' who you sometimes meet on the streets. It may very well be that women who scream at all porn are indeed just playing their own insecurities and using feminism as an excuse, without really knowing what is going on in it. But then again, since said women (and men!) do say the word 'feminism', the association in people's minds -- in reality, in the trenches and barricades of real life -- becomes stronger.
Maybe modern, less absolutist feminism needs to have more PR. Maybe it's necessary to bring the kinds of messages you've seen in feminist conferences to the world at large, so that people don't get -- as they so often do -- the wrong impression.
Note that such things have happened to other social movements and social theories in the past. What does 'socialism' mean these days, for instance? The amount of popular claims made in all kinds of directions (with little or no input from people who actually identified themselves as socialists) has led to the label losing practically all meaning.
Something like this might happen to feminism -- if one is not careful.
146
Another interesting viewpoint to throw in the mix: http://goodmenproject.com/featured-conte…
Should be safe for work in terms of pictures. If lockdown is also word based, well I'd have to assume you couldn't be reading this blog either :)
Should be safe for work in terms of pictures. If lockdown is also word based, well I'd have to assume you couldn't be reading this blog either :)
147
Ahhh, the good old porn issue. I've been on several sides of this particular debate. I discovered porn shortly after I discovered my clit, and have been a life-long consumer. When my twin brother and I were teenagers, we would trade porn collections.
My high school boyfriend and I regularly watched porn together, and did all manner of crazy sex inspired by them, not all successful!
Fast forward to my relationship with my oldest daughter's father. We consumed massive quantities of porn together, and at the time I was working as a porn reviewer for AVN and so had tons of free vids all the time. We also had good internet access, so ridiculous amounts of free porn. All was fine and good until after the baby came, and then it didn't matter if I was there or not... all he wanted was the porn. If we watched together and I tried to get in on his stroking action I was quickly rebuffed. I got angry about his porn usage because it was actively killing our mutual sex life. He is now married to a woman who made him get rid of *ALL* his porn.
I am with a man who does not consume porn. He masturbates, he is male after all, but he is so discreet about it that I never know. I masturbate frequently, and he knows I watch porn. He doesn't watch it with me however, and really doesn't want to know what kind of porn I like. When we were first together I actually had to show him my toys to demonstrate that none of them were bigger than he is. He has some sexual hang-ups (obviously), but we're working through them together and he is becoming much more sex positive. He loves sex, he was just steeped in the "Men like sex, women don't, and if they do they're whores" culture for way to long. But he's coming around nicely. ;)
My high school boyfriend and I regularly watched porn together, and did all manner of crazy sex inspired by them, not all successful!
Fast forward to my relationship with my oldest daughter's father. We consumed massive quantities of porn together, and at the time I was working as a porn reviewer for AVN and so had tons of free vids all the time. We also had good internet access, so ridiculous amounts of free porn. All was fine and good until after the baby came, and then it didn't matter if I was there or not... all he wanted was the porn. If we watched together and I tried to get in on his stroking action I was quickly rebuffed. I got angry about his porn usage because it was actively killing our mutual sex life. He is now married to a woman who made him get rid of *ALL* his porn.
I am with a man who does not consume porn. He masturbates, he is male after all, but he is so discreet about it that I never know. I masturbate frequently, and he knows I watch porn. He doesn't watch it with me however, and really doesn't want to know what kind of porn I like. When we were first together I actually had to show him my toys to demonstrate that none of them were bigger than he is. He has some sexual hang-ups (obviously), but we're working through them together and he is becoming much more sex positive. He loves sex, he was just steeped in the "Men like sex, women don't, and if they do they're whores" culture for way to long. But he's coming around nicely. ;)
149
@144: Oh, god, yeah, definitely. Most of those books were crap as far as the stories and the unrealistic and/or sexist ideology behind them went. My point was that women do like pornography, and will consume it when it's culturally sanctioned. It sucks that with romance novels, "culturally sanctioned" means supporting a status quo that keeps women in their place and makes men look like caricatures.
But I'm glad you bring this up. The phrase "marketed for women" makes me very, very nervous!
No, what I would love to see are alternatives to the traditional romance novel that are women-friendly and reflects the reality of our desires. The answer is not to flip the binary and put women in complete control. It's simply to let more people challenge the status quo -- no, change the status quo -- so that porn isn't automatically associated with using women to turn men on, and instead is about using sex to turn people on.
What I think would be ideal is porn/erotica made by men and women, for men and women. And one thing I'd like to see more of is hetero porn that captures the female gaze as well as the male gaze. I mean porn that focuses on the things women find sexy about men as much as vice versa, and involves more of a give-and-take as far as the power dynamic goes. My problem with mainstream porn (the stuff that shapes the way teenage boys, and now girls, understand sexual dynamics) is that it is often about men showing off to men in that sort of "see what I made her do?" kind of way. It's so damn homosocial. The women come across as no more than toys or appliances, and the men put on this tough macho pose, because God forbid a man should see another man looking vulnerable during sex (gay men excepted, of course).
I like to see men having fun with sex and showing their vulnerability, even if that just means saying "you're so hot; you make me so hard" rather than "take it, bitch" or whatever. I want to see women being pleasured, not doing tricks to impress the guys. I want the question to be not "Can she take it" but "Will it give her a mind-bending orgasm?"
I realize this may never happen. What I'm trying to do, though, is move beyond the demand that women get over their problems with porn (because it won't happen) and start to address some of the reasons we might not like it. If porn had more to offer women, it would be a lot easier for men to present their love of it as a feature instead of a bug.
More...
But I'm glad you bring this up. The phrase "marketed for women" makes me very, very nervous!
No, what I would love to see are alternatives to the traditional romance novel that are women-friendly and reflects the reality of our desires. The answer is not to flip the binary and put women in complete control. It's simply to let more people challenge the status quo -- no, change the status quo -- so that porn isn't automatically associated with using women to turn men on, and instead is about using sex to turn people on.
What I think would be ideal is porn/erotica made by men and women, for men and women. And one thing I'd like to see more of is hetero porn that captures the female gaze as well as the male gaze. I mean porn that focuses on the things women find sexy about men as much as vice versa, and involves more of a give-and-take as far as the power dynamic goes. My problem with mainstream porn (the stuff that shapes the way teenage boys, and now girls, understand sexual dynamics) is that it is often about men showing off to men in that sort of "see what I made her do?" kind of way. It's so damn homosocial. The women come across as no more than toys or appliances, and the men put on this tough macho pose, because God forbid a man should see another man looking vulnerable during sex (gay men excepted, of course).
I like to see men having fun with sex and showing their vulnerability, even if that just means saying "you're so hot; you make me so hard" rather than "take it, bitch" or whatever. I want to see women being pleasured, not doing tricks to impress the guys. I want the question to be not "Can she take it" but "Will it give her a mind-bending orgasm?"
I realize this may never happen. What I'm trying to do, though, is move beyond the demand that women get over their problems with porn (because it won't happen) and start to address some of the reasons we might not like it. If porn had more to offer women, it would be a lot easier for men to present their love of it as a feature instead of a bug.
150
@ 146 (BEG): Thanks for that reference. I think I'm going to copy-and-paste it.
@ Irena, who wrote: "I really, really wish Dan would acknowledge that women might have reasons for objecting to pornography as it currently exists in the mainstream: a man's game, for men's pleasure only, no girls allowed."
But these reasons are ultimately the same that anyone can object to any genre. If detective stories are too formulaic, then I object ot that. If science-fiction movies are too
There is in principle nothing wrong with something being 'for the men' -- just as there is nothing in principle wrong with something being 'for the women' (or for BDSM enthusiasts, or for gays, or for yuppies, or for...). What I keep saying to myself is: those who raise objections against the message in a certain medium should not be criticizing the medium itself, but the message -- and the best way to criticize the message is to create the kind of message you'd like to see in that medium.
Are there bad messages in porn? Sure. But can you show a medium, any medium -- TV, books, the Internet -- that is not full of 'wrong' messages, from Creationism to luddism to anti-scientificism to bigotry to intolerance to...?
Can you show me any medium that is not full of wrong messages?
What people should do is talk more (as the article BEG above shared claims). If men and women simply had more sincere conversations about porn -- women without freaking out at their men 'cheating', men without thinking that women just 'don't get it' -- and what they like and why.
Porn is simply a part of self-knowledge, like any other art form. It is full of wrong paths, like any other art form. It is full of paths that lead nowhere, like any other art form. But it also has good paths, individual paths, and surprising paths. Like Borges' garden of forking paths, it can be more surprising than your first five minutes' worth of googling time would lead you to believe.
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@ Irena, who wrote: "I really, really wish Dan would acknowledge that women might have reasons for objecting to pornography as it currently exists in the mainstream: a man's game, for men's pleasure only, no girls allowed."
But these reasons are ultimately the same that anyone can object to any genre. If detective stories are too formulaic, then I object ot that. If science-fiction movies are too
There is in principle nothing wrong with something being 'for the men' -- just as there is nothing in principle wrong with something being 'for the women' (or for BDSM enthusiasts, or for gays, or for yuppies, or for...). What I keep saying to myself is: those who raise objections against the message in a certain medium should not be criticizing the medium itself, but the message -- and the best way to criticize the message is to create the kind of message you'd like to see in that medium.
Are there bad messages in porn? Sure. But can you show a medium, any medium -- TV, books, the Internet -- that is not full of 'wrong' messages, from Creationism to luddism to anti-scientificism to bigotry to intolerance to...?
Can you show me any medium that is not full of wrong messages?
What people should do is talk more (as the article BEG above shared claims). If men and women simply had more sincere conversations about porn -- women without freaking out at their men 'cheating', men without thinking that women just 'don't get it' -- and what they like and why.
Porn is simply a part of self-knowledge, like any other art form. It is full of wrong paths, like any other art form. It is full of paths that lead nowhere, like any other art form. But it also has good paths, individual paths, and surprising paths. Like Borges' garden of forking paths, it can be more surprising than your first five minutes' worth of googling time would lead you to believe.
151
for a gay man you're pretty overly concerned with women. maybe you should discuss that with professional because it can't be healthy. what about all the men that police their wives and girlfriends cellphones, facebooks, ways of dress, jobs, friends, lives? why don't you make a post about the men who control and ultimately kill their wives and girlfriends for daring to want to live their lives of their own choosing? but no, you're a woman hater, and instead of talking about the important things you'd rather defend straight men (who'd gladly throw you under the bus and in front of one any day) and their rights to porn~.
152
ankylosaur @150: Sorry, but I can't drop everything and become a porn producer. Other than that, I am doing exactly what you recommend: I'm trying to contribute to a sincere conversation about porn, with the hopes that people will think about it, argue with it, talk about it, and hopefully work toward resolving some of the conflicts that surround it.
Anyway, I'm at the point now where I'm probably talking way too much and repeating myself, so I'll likely take off soon. But I want to highlight the final statement of the article BEG linked to above:
This was written by a woman and a feminist. So my question is, is this what men want out of porn? Or is porn simply a way for them to get sexual satisfaction while working through their aggressions with women, without having to deal with real women at all?
(I'm not trying to demonize men here. I imagine many women could use porn to work out their own aggressions as well, and avoid dealing with the messiness of a real person. But women are not the primary consumers of porn.)
Anyway, I'm at the point now where I'm probably talking way too much and repeating myself, so I'll likely take off soon. But I want to highlight the final statement of the article BEG linked to above:
For better or worse, the erotic arts are a source into our selves, giving us a clearer picture of what makes us tick, what we like and dislike, tolerate and abhor. Still, the question remains: can pornography take us to a more ethical, equitable place of intimacy, bonding, pleasure, and exchange? I think the dirtiest little secret of all is, it could.
This was written by a woman and a feminist. So my question is, is this what men want out of porn? Or is porn simply a way for them to get sexual satisfaction while working through their aggressions with women, without having to deal with real women at all?
(I'm not trying to demonize men here. I imagine many women could use porn to work out their own aggressions as well, and avoid dealing with the messiness of a real person. But women are not the primary consumers of porn.)
153
Okay. Let's clear up up some obvious misconceptions it seems like some of women here have.
First. For most men masturbation is not sex. They are related. But they are not the same thing. Porn in 99% of the case for men is used for masturbation. Not to enhance our sex lives. Why does porn have serve some relationship enhancement function?
Second. Why does porn for men automatically imply some sort of larger aggression purging activity on the behalf of men? Look. Most porn is awful. Most of EVERY media form is awful. People have terrible banal taste. The men making porn, up until recently, were a very small self-involved niche of men. The fact that they make pornography for men is no mystery. The fact that the porn they make is often not depicting women "as whole people" is also no mystery. They don't depict men as anything but cocks. Most media is not interest in deep humanizing.
You know there have been studies that show most men want very vanilla and banal porn. (http://healthland.time.com/2011/05/19/mi…)
"There's been a lot of concern that porn is getting more violent and more misogynistic and that the Internet is making it harder for women because porn makes men want more extreme sex. What does your research show?"
It's not at all more violent or misogynistic. We really looked at all porn searches. Truly violent pornography is extremely rare. It truly is rare and the kind of people who watch it are a clearly identifiable group.
Read more: http://healthland.time.com/2011/05/19/mi…
More...
First. For most men masturbation is not sex. They are related. But they are not the same thing. Porn in 99% of the case for men is used for masturbation. Not to enhance our sex lives. Why does porn have serve some relationship enhancement function?
Second. Why does porn for men automatically imply some sort of larger aggression purging activity on the behalf of men? Look. Most porn is awful. Most of EVERY media form is awful. People have terrible banal taste. The men making porn, up until recently, were a very small self-involved niche of men. The fact that they make pornography for men is no mystery. The fact that the porn they make is often not depicting women "as whole people" is also no mystery. They don't depict men as anything but cocks. Most media is not interest in deep humanizing.
You know there have been studies that show most men want very vanilla and banal porn. (http://healthland.time.com/2011/05/19/mi…)
"There's been a lot of concern that porn is getting more violent and more misogynistic and that the Internet is making it harder for women because porn makes men want more extreme sex. What does your research show?"
It's not at all more violent or misogynistic. We really looked at all porn searches. Truly violent pornography is extremely rare. It truly is rare and the kind of people who watch it are a clearly identifiable group.
Read more: http://healthland.time.com/2011/05/19/mi…
154
Arrrrg! This interface completely butchered my comment. About 80% of what I typed is gone. Damn it. Jebus. SLOG admins can we get an auto save in the edit window for god's sake.
Anyway. I'm not doing it again. Sigh.
Rest assured, it was brilliant and would have revolutionized human relationships. FOREVER!
Anyway. I'm not doing it again. Sigh.
Rest assured, it was brilliant and would have revolutionized human relationships. FOREVER!
155
@153, you should know that Ogi Ogas, the writer interviewed in the piece you cited, has been sharply criticized for refusing IRB oversight, using unethical research methods, and failing to honor the scientific method in his research.
156
Dan and the Slog commenters are reacting to the Jezebel piece, when what they really should be reacting to (are you listening, Dan?) is the Newsweek article that prompted it. This article, "The John Next Door," written by Leslie Bennett and printed in the July 25 issue, comes dangerously close to portraying all porn consumers (and, ergo, all men) as heavy-breathing, sadistic, serial killers in training.
I agree that a lot of physical and sexual abuse of women probably takes place in the sex industries, and I aslo agree that, if prostitution is to remain illegal, the johns should arrested as often as the the prostitutes (are you listening, David Vitter?), but demonizing an entire gender to make the points strikes me as alarmist, reactionary, and, frankly, not very intelligent.
I agree that a lot of physical and sexual abuse of women probably takes place in the sex industries, and I aslo agree that, if prostitution is to remain illegal, the johns should arrested as often as the the prostitutes (are you listening, David Vitter?), but demonizing an entire gender to make the points strikes me as alarmist, reactionary, and, frankly, not very intelligent.
157
@155 not that I'm super invested in that particular study but it'd be great if you posted some sort of cite for claims/refutations like that.
158
@157: The stuff against that study was a politicized witchhunt, but if you're interested check out
http://www.roughtheory.org/content/weari…
http://mackle.wordpress.com/2009/09/03/t…
http://www.roughtheory.org/content/weari…
http://mackle.wordpress.com/2009/09/03/t…
160
As a woman who consumes a good (or bad, depending upon your perception) amount of porn, I have to confess that I don't consider anyone in the stuff as whole people. I'm watching porn to see some fucking, with other sex acts tossed in for good measure. Plot is not high on the priority list, nor is quality characterization or any amount of acting ability. My current favorite porn is French porn. My husband and I watch it several times a week, usually before having sex. Or during sex. I speak French, he does not--I'm certain that this makes him even worse then men who watch porn in languages that they understand. (insert eye roll here).
I work with a guy who watches porn on the sly. At home, not at work. And yes, I know a bit about my coworker's porn habits. He says that his wife would divorce him if she knew, I say it wouldn't be a big loss. She also believes that masturbation is cheating, so he has to do that on the sly also. I'm not sure if I feel more sorry for him or for her. And I don't really understand the thought process happening here, I think that we should respect and honor our sexuality.
I was reading bodice rippers by the time I was 12 years old, roughly the same time I discovered masturbation. My first exposure to video porn was at age 16, a friend who was still closted had a stash of gay porn, which I found quite fascinating (it was also my first glimpse of cock, and there were 2 of them on the screen!!) Straight porn wasn't in my arsenol until after I was married. I have to say that the bodice rippers (thank you for that maddy811, I haven't heard that phrase in a long time) gave me a more distorted view of sexuality than any of the porn I've watched. If we're going to castigate anyone, let's go after that god awful Johanna Lindsay, not the porn producers.
Lastly, there are a great many woman involved in the production of porn. I enjoy Tristan Taormino's productions quite a bit (seriously, the woman should put me on her payroll). If only she would make some in French.....
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I work with a guy who watches porn on the sly. At home, not at work. And yes, I know a bit about my coworker's porn habits. He says that his wife would divorce him if she knew, I say it wouldn't be a big loss. She also believes that masturbation is cheating, so he has to do that on the sly also. I'm not sure if I feel more sorry for him or for her. And I don't really understand the thought process happening here, I think that we should respect and honor our sexuality.
I was reading bodice rippers by the time I was 12 years old, roughly the same time I discovered masturbation. My first exposure to video porn was at age 16, a friend who was still closted had a stash of gay porn, which I found quite fascinating (it was also my first glimpse of cock, and there were 2 of them on the screen!!) Straight porn wasn't in my arsenol until after I was married. I have to say that the bodice rippers (thank you for that maddy811, I haven't heard that phrase in a long time) gave me a more distorted view of sexuality than any of the porn I've watched. If we're going to castigate anyone, let's go after that god awful Johanna Lindsay, not the porn producers.
Lastly, there are a great many woman involved in the production of porn. I enjoy Tristan Taormino's productions quite a bit (seriously, the woman should put me on her payroll). If only she would make some in French.....
161
I think everyone should watch the documentary "9 to 5 - Days in porn": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9to5_%E2%80…
The main concern regarding the morality of porn shouldn't be so much about what it depicts (tastes are different after all) but about how the people in the industry are treated.
The main concern regarding the morality of porn shouldn't be so much about what it depicts (tastes are different after all) but about how the people in the industry are treated.
162
I've wondered if anti-sex "feminism," which is a fairly loud branch of feminism, is simply a new mating strategy aimed at decreasing sexual outlets for men, monopolizing the sexual market, and ultimately making men depend upon women to the level of servant to master.
163
Ms Beg - That is true, you did, and I do extend sympathy on that count. I do think to some extent that such groups as have rather fewer generally known voices have the right to be a bit more circumspect about who is and who isn't one of them, especially when there is a case to the contrary. But, in the main, I was trying to be kind regarding Mr B, by not foisting him upon another group that presumably wouldn't want or deserve him any more than mine would.
164
Oh, my impression was that if men stepped up and were honest and outspoken, then a woman might go ballistic, but eventually realize how common it is.
It seems a woman can turn a blind eye to porn use, believing that "other" men are consuming porn, but not her beloved father or her kind brother or her thoughtful lover or her outgoing soccer coach. If all men everywhere stopped being so concerned about a woman going ballistic, even if she did erupt, then she'd eventually get used to it and accept that he consumes porn, but isn't a creep.
Isn't it similar in some ways to coming out of the closet? At first, your parents are going to get mad and throw a fit, but eventually they'll realize it's not so bad after all.
It seems a woman can turn a blind eye to porn use, believing that "other" men are consuming porn, but not her beloved father or her kind brother or her thoughtful lover or her outgoing soccer coach. If all men everywhere stopped being so concerned about a woman going ballistic, even if she did erupt, then she'd eventually get used to it and accept that he consumes porn, but isn't a creep.
Isn't it similar in some ways to coming out of the closet? At first, your parents are going to get mad and throw a fit, but eventually they'll realize it's not so bad after all.
166
You know, all this time I had been glibly passing over that "castrati" [sic] comment without even realizing: that is perhaps the single most offensive part of Dan's response. A guy wants other men to communicate with women honestly about their porn use, and not give up communicating even if the woman reacts in anger to this new info, and Dan thinks he has LOST HIS BALLS? Great. Next time I convince myself that Dan is merely overlooking or de-emphasizing women's concerns, and then perhaps unwittingly, I'll have to remember that no, he's just a garden-variety misogynist.
Women are A-OK with Dan as long as they act like, on Dan's view, they DO have balls of their own. But if they are insecure, or don't put out enough, or aren't open to non-monogamy, or are bothered by the porn industry, or bothered by being deceived about their partner's use of porn, I guess they're just castrating bitches. What's especially sad is that Dan thinks they "naturally" tend to these preferences and behaviors more than men do, since men "naturally" tend to be bad at monogamy, and liking porn, and so on. Women, therefore, just need to suck it up and deal with men's "natures", and men need to tell women to go to hell for their "natures". Dan, seriously, what is wrong with you for pushing these views without ever applying any self-scrutiny or criticism to your argument?
Women are A-OK with Dan as long as they act like, on Dan's view, they DO have balls of their own. But if they are insecure, or don't put out enough, or aren't open to non-monogamy, or are bothered by the porn industry, or bothered by being deceived about their partner's use of porn, I guess they're just castrating bitches. What's especially sad is that Dan thinks they "naturally" tend to these preferences and behaviors more than men do, since men "naturally" tend to be bad at monogamy, and liking porn, and so on. Women, therefore, just need to suck it up and deal with men's "natures", and men need to tell women to go to hell for their "natures". Dan, seriously, what is wrong with you for pushing these views without ever applying any self-scrutiny or criticism to your argument?
167
I'm a single bi woman and I watch porn movies when I'm in the mood to enjoy time with my vibrator, I subscribe to a mailing list that sends pictures of naked women to me daily, I write porn that I share with my friends (both male and female and I have several ebooks available with collections of my short stories, and when I'm bored of my own tales I read porn stories by others.
I was married to a guy who shared in these things, a long term relationship with a guy who wanted nothing to do with it (other than the naughty stories I wrote about him) and we had a really good sexual relationship, and in short-term relationships with guys and gals who were all over the map with it. I would much rather know what my SO is reading/watching/fantasizing about than not. Maybe there's something new there we can try that would enhance our sex lives. Other women really need to get more secure and open-minded so their SOs don't feel the need to stray to get what they want need.
I really think couples need to talk about their wants and needs BEFORE they fall in love or start having sex because there is really no point in getting married to someone who is going to not give you anything you want or need in the sack. Sex reigns supreme in relationships and if you're a mismatch then you're going to be miserable. I tend to have the conversation within the first few days of meeting someone I'm interested in. Saves a lot of disappointment later on.
I was married to a guy who shared in these things, a long term relationship with a guy who wanted nothing to do with it (other than the naughty stories I wrote about him) and we had a really good sexual relationship, and in short-term relationships with guys and gals who were all over the map with it. I would much rather know what my SO is reading/watching/fantasizing about than not. Maybe there's something new there we can try that would enhance our sex lives. Other women really need to get more secure and open-minded so their SOs don't feel the need to stray to get what they want need.
I really think couples need to talk about their wants and needs BEFORE they fall in love or start having sex because there is really no point in getting married to someone who is going to not give you anything you want or need in the sack. Sex reigns supreme in relationships and if you're a mismatch then you're going to be miserable. I tend to have the conversation within the first few days of meeting someone I'm interested in. Saves a lot of disappointment later on.
168
Suzy, I certainly agree that there are legit reasons to be mindful of one's porn use. These are real people performing these acts, and their health and well being, physically and economically should be of concern to those of us who consume their product. If you won't buy clothing made in Chinese sweatshops you should have at least that same level of concern for the people making your porn.
I can also sympathize with some one who might feel insecure about possibly being compared to their partner's fantasy life and coming up short. Certainly open communication is, as I think every one here agrees, a must when it comes to any aspect of a relationship, and these situations in particular.
That being said, I do think that expecting your partner to censor their fantasy life to conform to your standard is castrating regardless of gender. I speak from personal experience. When we first were married my ex husband was shocked and appalled that I masturbated, and could not wrap his head around that it had nothing to do with him, and did not detract from our relationship. We had to have that conversation, and I was quite clear that I wasn't going to stop, and he had to get over it. We went on to enjoy porn together, but also had our own personal genres that we enjoyed separately.
I cannot disagree with you strongly enough that Dan is a misogynist.
But then I am a card carrying Flying Monkey. :)
I can also sympathize with some one who might feel insecure about possibly being compared to their partner's fantasy life and coming up short. Certainly open communication is, as I think every one here agrees, a must when it comes to any aspect of a relationship, and these situations in particular.
That being said, I do think that expecting your partner to censor their fantasy life to conform to your standard is castrating regardless of gender. I speak from personal experience. When we first were married my ex husband was shocked and appalled that I masturbated, and could not wrap his head around that it had nothing to do with him, and did not detract from our relationship. We had to have that conversation, and I was quite clear that I wasn't going to stop, and he had to get over it. We went on to enjoy porn together, but also had our own personal genres that we enjoyed separately.
I cannot disagree with you strongly enough that Dan is a misogynist.
But then I am a card carrying Flying Monkey. :)
169
@40: I think porn can have strong effects on people, and since this is an amoral universe there is no reason to assume that these are all good.
I think some few men are not able to distinguish fantasy from reality, because back on the Serengeti there was never any incentive not to believe your eyes and ears. Their inability should not be used as an excuse to restrict what's available to men who can, which set I hope includes me, but I'm sure everyone knows someone else who's not good at the distinction.
I think some few men are not able to distinguish fantasy from reality, because back on the Serengeti there was never any incentive not to believe your eyes and ears. Their inability should not be used as an excuse to restrict what's available to men who can, which set I hope includes me, but I'm sure everyone knows someone else who's not good at the distinction.
171
@170: Oh how I long for a team t-shirt! As far as I can tell if you've ever been part of one the many e-mail campaigns Dan has fostered you can consider yourself one of his Flying Monkeys.
172
I'm a chick who uses porn. Do I have to come out to all the men around me? I'm so scared my husband's gonna go ballistic if I tell him--but I guess I get what I deserve, right?
173
As a married woman who's not into porn at all, I don't begrudge anyone else their enjoyment of it, including my husband. Between women like me who don't watch porn but don't care if someone else does, and women who enjoy pron themselves, anti-porn women must be outnumbered, right?
174
@74 "I got a guy woo-hoo..." Absolutely hilarious. Probably true, too.
The whole Dan Savage riff on strict honesty is an odds game. You take a chance that your partner will find a dealbreaker in there if you show your hand. And you take a chance that these won't be accommodated even if they are discussed. But that's nothing compared to the anti-porn odds game - why stake so much on not watching/consuming porn if you're almost inevitably going to lose the bet? Who shows up in Vegas to play roulette, then puts their bankroll on 0?
The whole Dan Savage riff on strict honesty is an odds game. You take a chance that your partner will find a dealbreaker in there if you show your hand. And you take a chance that these won't be accommodated even if they are discussed. But that's nothing compared to the anti-porn odds game - why stake so much on not watching/consuming porn if you're almost inevitably going to lose the bet? Who shows up in Vegas to play roulette, then puts their bankroll on 0?
175
@173: and women who have so much sex with their partners that their partners don't have time or energy left for porn :)
176
The first 70 comments or so explain the complexity of the issue fairly broadly. It is complexity like this that demands each couple communicate honestly with each other and decide what is appropriate for them. Dan was correct that the attitude in the Jezebel article essentially said every couple should respond the same way to the complex question of porn usage. But going the other way and saying women should get with the program has the same flaw. I'm a woman who is not okay with the content of most porn. I laid these cards all on the table when my husband and I first met years ago. Along the way we've negotiated the role of porn in our relationship and he apparently decided to marry me anyway. I refuse to apologize about feeling a certain way towards porn-- this is something for all couples, straight or gay, to decide on their own. Anyone who feels like they have a single answer, whether pro- or anti-porn, is wrong.
177
@BlackRose - See, a response like that just places porn in competition with the sexual relationship between two partners. That's the imaginary conflict that most anti-porn women feel threatened by in the first place. In reality, porn in and of itself doesn't pose a threat to a marriage, and the fact that a husband watches porn isn't indicative of any failure on the wife's part to provide enough sex. People can have fulfilling sex lives and still feel the urge to masturbate, and lots of people use porn to masturbate. It's normal and it's not a big deal.
178
Ugh, fuck the anti-sex "feminist" crowd. Proscribing sexual behaviors is cool as long as it's done with a "feminist" label? How is slut-shaming men about their sexuality the answer to the slut-shaming of women? What the fuck is up with all of these conservative yahoos in the feminist movement all of a sudden? These are 19th century ethical principles surrounding sexuality being applied - without modification - to a world with (video)cameras in cell phones, webcams, and an internet full of free porn sites (Do people really pay for porn? (How) Does free porn equal men 'paying' for sex? What's wrong with buying sex in the first place?). For a feminist wave that's supposed to be all about recognizing the contexts of different positionalities, there seems to still be one hell of a lot of universalized behavioral imperatives thrown around. Yes, many cultures disprivilege women relative to men; that doesn't mean we should be pathologizing extremely common aspects of men's sexuality, especially aspects that make the sort of monogamy that this seems to be advocating a lot easier for an awful lot of people. The "only the forms of erotica that I like are okay, and everything else is 'pornography', which is intrinsically bad" crowd needs to go away.
That said, the concept of lying about the fact that I view "pornography" is so foreign to me, as is the idea of a sex partner being uncomfortable with that fact. Then again, I frequently forget that a LOT of people are Christian or otherwise religious (no one with whom I'm friends or even acquaintances, as far as I know, is any sort of religious stronger than New-Age deist, though New-Age spirituality still bugs me plenty), and have a lot of fucked-up views about sexuality informed by their holy texts. While not due to being gay, I, like Dan, am glad to have found a social/cultural niche where I don't have to put up with this sort of ludicrous bullshit.
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That said, the concept of lying about the fact that I view "pornography" is so foreign to me, as is the idea of a sex partner being uncomfortable with that fact. Then again, I frequently forget that a LOT of people are Christian or otherwise religious (no one with whom I'm friends or even acquaintances, as far as I know, is any sort of religious stronger than New-Age deist, though New-Age spirituality still bugs me plenty), and have a lot of fucked-up views about sexuality informed by their holy texts. While not due to being gay, I, like Dan, am glad to have found a social/cultural niche where I don't have to put up with this sort of ludicrous bullshit.
179
@177: I don't really understand that. Every time I look at porn (by myself) I am wishing that I were looking at someone who was actually naked in front of me. Every time I masturbate I am wishing that I was engaging in sexual activity with a partner instead.
I agree that there's nothing wrong with porn and it doesn't need to be a threat. But at least for me, porn is a second-rate substitute for an actual person. I would prefer it if I never had the chance to masturbate or looking at porn by myself. So porn is never in competition with a relationship because it would always lose, and I don't really understand how it could be otherwise.
But you could easily see how two people with high sex drives might have sex all the time, and never need masturbation or porn (unless they viewed it together). And how someone in a mismatched relationship might feel frustrated that they're not getting enough sex and that they need to use porn or masturbate all the time.
I agree that there's nothing wrong with porn and it doesn't need to be a threat. But at least for me, porn is a second-rate substitute for an actual person. I would prefer it if I never had the chance to masturbate or looking at porn by myself. So porn is never in competition with a relationship because it would always lose, and I don't really understand how it could be otherwise.
But you could easily see how two people with high sex drives might have sex all the time, and never need masturbation or porn (unless they viewed it together). And how someone in a mismatched relationship might feel frustrated that they're not getting enough sex and that they need to use porn or masturbate all the time.
180
@178: they're not real feminists, and they are a very small minority. They just seem big and loud on the Internet.
181
Assume the following is true: hetero relationships would be improved if women could be less insecure about their own sexuality and desirability, less insecure about men's interest in and use of porn, and more able to communicate openly about sex. What I don't understand is why this is considered a problem in women to be fixed by women! Meanwhile, whatever the men are doing is just fine.
Yet men are insecure about women's sexuality, and men sometimes fail to communicate openly about their sexual desires. So why is it terribly wrong for women to become angry, when they are insecure and haven't been told the truth about what their men actually want or do, sexually? Men become angry for the same reasons--it's just that the reasons aren't usually tied to things like porn use and strip clubs.
This is why I consider the "get over it, ladies!" approach to this issue basically misogynist. Both men and women create the culture in which these problems and miscommunications arise. The issue is being presented, however, as if men have these natural, positive desires, and women by contrast merely have an inexplicable, castrating urge to suppress the men. If so, the solution clearly would be for women to just stop doing that! But is that really the problem? Of course not. Why people can even think that's the problem is kind of beyond me.
Yet men are insecure about women's sexuality, and men sometimes fail to communicate openly about their sexual desires. So why is it terribly wrong for women to become angry, when they are insecure and haven't been told the truth about what their men actually want or do, sexually? Men become angry for the same reasons--it's just that the reasons aren't usually tied to things like porn use and strip clubs.
This is why I consider the "get over it, ladies!" approach to this issue basically misogynist. Both men and women create the culture in which these problems and miscommunications arise. The issue is being presented, however, as if men have these natural, positive desires, and women by contrast merely have an inexplicable, castrating urge to suppress the men. If so, the solution clearly would be for women to just stop doing that! But is that really the problem? Of course not. Why people can even think that's the problem is kind of beyond me.
182
@179 - your use of porn/masturbation is not universal. I find masturbation relaxing in a different way from sex. With masturbation, I don't have to think about other people's needs or desires. Whatever I want is what's on the agenda, and nothing else. (I like to run with friends, but sometimes a solitary run is what I want.)
If I were married to someone like you, I would hate seeing my husband masturbating -- I would feel that I had let him down. Instead, I can relax knowing he is enjoying his stories and his Tenga Egg, and doesn't need anything from me.
If I were married to someone like you, I would hate seeing my husband masturbating -- I would feel that I had let him down. Instead, I can relax knowing he is enjoying his stories and his Tenga Egg, and doesn't need anything from me.
183
@181: Other than communicate honestly, what are guys supposed to do? I don't think it's a sexist thing, I think it's just that people in general need to realize that porn is not a big deal. Guys need to realize this also. There are guys who have a problem with it too, like the writer Dan quoted.
@182: Hmm. Ever thought of taking a turn being in charge? You sound like you'd enjoy giving the orders sometimes... it's fun cause you can get whatever you want and nothing else. :) That's what always confuses me about the dom/sub thing... doesn't everyone want what they want?
@182: Hmm. Ever thought of taking a turn being in charge? You sound like you'd enjoy giving the orders sometimes... it's fun cause you can get whatever you want and nothing else. :) That's what always confuses me about the dom/sub thing... doesn't everyone want what they want?
184
@183 Funny that you should say that -- we have instituted a monthly evening of "EricaP gets what she wants in bed and doesn't consider Mr. P's preferences at all." It's a good exercise, but honestly I find it a bit stressful, having to decide how everything is going to go. I like having him in charge, generally, and I like pleasing him. The fact that we each take some solitary pleasure as well... that's a feature, not a bug, in our lives.
185
@184: That's awesome that you do the monthly EricaP evening!
Ok, so I assume you don't find masturbating stressful, having to decide how everything is going to go. Why is taking charge sometimes any different? Is it hard to let go of wanting to please him? (For me, the fantasies of objectification and using someone as a sex toy are huge turn-ons, so it's hard to relate.)
Ok, so I assume you don't find masturbating stressful, having to decide how everything is going to go. Why is taking charge sometimes any different? Is it hard to let go of wanting to please him? (For me, the fantasies of objectification and using someone as a sex toy are huge turn-ons, so it's hard to relate.)
186
@185, If I try something and it doesn't go well in masturbation, there's no audience to judge. I can even give up on orgasm if it's not happening, laugh to myself, and go take a shower. No matter how much the evening is supposed to be "for my pleasure," it's hard to internalize that it's okay for me to end the sex early because I'm not feeling it. Or okay to keep doing one-damn-thing for an hour.
187
"Other than communicate honestly, what are guys supposed to do?"
Well, that's what the author of the original piece suggested that guys do, and according to Savage that makes him "castrated"! So yes, I guess men should be castrated enough to tolerate negative reactions to their use of porn, especially if their partners weren't aware of it before and thus don't know what to make of it. Men might recognize some common reasons why porn troubles women or makes them have concerns about their relationships. Even if we disagree with those reasons, they're not crazy reasons--they deserve a serious response. So, men could try to respond by communicating about why they use porn and why it's not a threat to the relationship. [I don't mean to suggest that this how women and men in a hetero relationships generally do view porn--I'm only dividing it between the sexes this way because of this discussion.]
Things might not always work out well, of course. Sometimes women might get angry about men using porn and no amount of understanding or communication will solve it. And sometimes, men might indeed use porn in ways that are damaging to a relationship or exploitative of people. I can't solve those cases. However, it's wrong to put all the blame on women for failure to get over it and accept that men want their porn. That seems to be what's happening here, as if what men want is simply natural and thus must rule the day, and women's reactions are some kind of crazy nonsense from outer space that has to be suppressed or ridiculed. That's where I feel the misogyny comes in. Got a problem, ladies? Sorry, men's desires come first, so fuck you, you're castrating!
Well, that's what the author of the original piece suggested that guys do, and according to Savage that makes him "castrated"! So yes, I guess men should be castrated enough to tolerate negative reactions to their use of porn, especially if their partners weren't aware of it before and thus don't know what to make of it. Men might recognize some common reasons why porn troubles women or makes them have concerns about their relationships. Even if we disagree with those reasons, they're not crazy reasons--they deserve a serious response. So, men could try to respond by communicating about why they use porn and why it's not a threat to the relationship. [I don't mean to suggest that this how women and men in a hetero relationships generally do view porn--I'm only dividing it between the sexes this way because of this discussion.]
Things might not always work out well, of course. Sometimes women might get angry about men using porn and no amount of understanding or communication will solve it. And sometimes, men might indeed use porn in ways that are damaging to a relationship or exploitative of people. I can't solve those cases. However, it's wrong to put all the blame on women for failure to get over it and accept that men want their porn. That seems to be what's happening here, as if what men want is simply natural and thus must rule the day, and women's reactions are some kind of crazy nonsense from outer space that has to be suppressed or ridiculed. That's where I feel the misogyny comes in. Got a problem, ladies? Sorry, men's desires come first, so fuck you, you're castrating!
188
@187: First of all, you may not be familiar with the context, which is that the quoted piece was written by Hugo Schwyzer, a batshit insane misogynist religious "feminist" well-known for his sex-negative rants. Consider yourself fortunate if you're not familiar with his writings.
Second, I don't think that was the problem Dan had. Hugo was saying more that men need to shamefully admit to using porn, which he called "buying sex," and then face the rightful wrath of women. That's very different than honest communication. As a guru of mine once said, if you're communicating your anger to someone, that's not honesty, that's anger.
I am not sure if you're right that some objections to porn might be reasonable. I haven't seen one yet that is. But I'm definitely sure that anger is an overreaction, and whatever else is going on, anger isn't an acceptable reaction to someone's porn use.
Second, I don't think that was the problem Dan had. Hugo was saying more that men need to shamefully admit to using porn, which he called "buying sex," and then face the rightful wrath of women. That's very different than honest communication. As a guru of mine once said, if you're communicating your anger to someone, that's not honesty, that's anger.
I am not sure if you're right that some objections to porn might be reasonable. I haven't seen one yet that is. But I'm definitely sure that anger is an overreaction, and whatever else is going on, anger isn't an acceptable reaction to someone's porn use.
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