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News & ArtsFriday, July 8, 2011
Hetero / Religion Every Child Deserves a Mother and a Father, There Is No Morality Without Religion, O They Will Know We Are Christians...
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 12:12 PM
Via JMG:
A Durham man who led a religious group killed a 4-year-old boy who he feared was gay and a 28-year-old woman who couldn't have children and wanted to leave the group, prosecutors said in a court hearing Friday. Prosecutors laid out evidence they believe justifies the death penalty against Peter Lucas Moses, 27, who faces two counts of first-degree murder in the deaths of Jadon Higganbothan, 4, and Antoinetta Yvonne McKoy, 28. Defense attorneys didn't speak in his behalf at a court hearing Friday.
Prosecutors said the case came to police's attention in February when a young woman escaped from a house at 2109 Pear Tree Lane house, where she had lived with McKoy, Jadon, eight other children and three women charged in connection with the two slayings—Jadon's mother, Vania Rae Sisk, 25, Lavada Quinzetta Harris, 40, and Larhonda Renee Smith, 40.... The women counted themselves as Moses' "wives or common-law wives" and called him "Lord," Cline said. "The arrangement was the women would periodically occupy the master suite with" Moses, Cline said, adding that she wouldn't go so far as to say the group was a cult.
One reason the homicidal chaos on Pear Tree Lane didn't come to the attention of authorities sooner:
The children were homeschooled.
2
Oh, man. I used to live in Durham, and a friend of mine who tended bar there was once approached by a guy who matches "Moses" description, who gave her a long letter inviting him to be his "wife" in a clearly cultish, polygamous arrangement. It was some seriously freaky shit...talking about her being a vessel for the divine and having her clitoris removed to be made holy.
The police were informed about him. That was at least 2 years ago.
I'm not sure what bothers me more...the idea that this was the same guy, or that there might be more than one in such a relatively small city.
The police were informed about him. That was at least 2 years ago.
I'm not sure what bothers me more...the idea that this was the same guy, or that there might be more than one in such a relatively small city.
5
Cult. This is appalling and upsetting. I hope this guy gets the death penalty.
But, um, I was homeschooled until 2nd grade, as were several of my sibs. I was homeschooled again from 6th-8th grade - no middle-school horror stories from me! My parents are not crazy, not religious, not anti-social, not horribly, militantly anti-government. And they managed to turn out 7 - count 'em 7! - productive, college educated, employed adults. They managed to not kill or otherwise harm their children. I know a lot of crazies homeschool. And that they homeschool to hide just how crazy they are/indoctrinate their children into the crazy. But some people just do it because it's a better option than the schools in the area and they have the time, energy and resources to do so. IOW, don't blame homeschooling, blame the crazies.
But, um, I was homeschooled until 2nd grade, as were several of my sibs. I was homeschooled again from 6th-8th grade - no middle-school horror stories from me! My parents are not crazy, not religious, not anti-social, not horribly, militantly anti-government. And they managed to turn out 7 - count 'em 7! - productive, college educated, employed adults. They managed to not kill or otherwise harm their children. I know a lot of crazies homeschool. And that they homeschool to hide just how crazy they are/indoctrinate their children into the crazy. But some people just do it because it's a better option than the schools in the area and they have the time, energy and resources to do so. IOW, don't blame homeschooling, blame the crazies.
6
Why the outrage? This guy's just putting into action the mere words that upstanding citizen Michelle Bachmann and her centurion, Bradlee Dean, have been saying--or, in Bachmann's case, mumbling around Dean's slobbery dick (she's gotta getta hard one somewhere). Do actions speak louder than words or not, people?!
9
It's like a modern-day Bible story! (You know, polygamy, killing children, man as lord and master of the household.) Praise Jesus!
10
Oi, I only know 2 kids who were homeschooled, which included Bible discussions, and haven't turned out completely messed up.
Mostly because their mother is SANE and the Bible talks heavily involved pointing out plot holes, why it was messed up, and finding influences on later literature and films.
Mostly because their mother is SANE and the Bible talks heavily involved pointing out plot holes, why it was messed up, and finding influences on later literature and films.
11
@5, I'm actually a big fan of the virtues of home schooling. I think for some kids it really is the way to go. But what i think needs to happen is there needs to be some sort of check on these kids on at least an annual basis, just to make sure they are not being kept in absolute isolation. And most home schoolers go completely nuts whenever someone says something like that. I think that's really what Dan is getting at too.
12
Nutbags are nutbags. Ya know, we have bug chasers and gift givers on our side, they have batshit crazy muderous polygamists on their side. Crazy is crazy.
13
@moosefan I hear ya, I was completely homeschooled and my parents are atheists. They yoinked me because I was miserable in school and it wasn't working. Best decision ever. I shudder to think what would have happened to me in high school, especially hearing all the horror stories on the IGB project.
Homeschooling has it's downsides, as shown above, but then… so does public (and private) school, as shown by the tragic suicide-inducing bullying that goes on there.
Basically, if you're a kid, and the adults in your life are not caring for you, you're screwed and it sucks. This can happen in or out of school.
@2 if any man approached me about having my clitoris removed I think I would cut his penis off with a spork… and then call the cops. Grr. People like that make me sick and angry and want to hurt things.
Homeschooling has it's downsides, as shown above, but then… so does public (and private) school, as shown by the tragic suicide-inducing bullying that goes on there.
Basically, if you're a kid, and the adults in your life are not caring for you, you're screwed and it sucks. This can happen in or out of school.
@2 if any man approached me about having my clitoris removed I think I would cut his penis off with a spork… and then call the cops. Grr. People like that make me sick and angry and want to hurt things.
15
@11: I don't trust anyone enough to do such a home invasion. Especially not the government. Pretty soon they'd start taking kids away from parents because of what the parents were teaching them or how the parents lived. Non-monogamous household? Take away the kids. A non-state-approved religion? Take away the kids. Teaching about sex? Take away the kids.
16
Again with the anti-homeschooling. Please, Mr. Savage, get to know some non-schoolers. Getting to know people personally is a great way to dispel harmful stereotypes, don't you think?
17
Dan, please stop doing this. Bad cultists = homeschoolers does not mean that all homeschoolers = bad cultists.
18
@11, I grew up in Pa and we had to go to a state evaluator every year. We had to create portfolios of work, discuss the curriculum, read, play piano (the equivalent of music class), etc. At certain grade levels we had to take standardized tests. I went to the local public middle-school once a week for GATE - gifted and talented education - class. And played in the neighborhood soccer league. So, my progress was being monitored by people other than my parents on a regular basis. Which can make a great deal of difference.
19
@17
The unrestricted right to homeschool is a terrible idea that eats away at the foundations of an informed democracy. The point isn't that all homeschoolers are cultists, but rather that allowing anyone to homeschool their children means that people with a pathological desire to control - e.g. Christian Scientists, Evangelicals, and other even more dangerous cultists - will be not only free but likely to homeschool their children and damage them in the process.
Honestly, kids need both public education and homeschooling. One or the other is not enough. They need a social environment AND parental nurturing for best outcomes.
This long-standing patriarchal tradition that children are the property of their parents, and especially their fathers, has got to end.
The unrestricted right to homeschool is a terrible idea that eats away at the foundations of an informed democracy. The point isn't that all homeschoolers are cultists, but rather that allowing anyone to homeschool their children means that people with a pathological desire to control - e.g. Christian Scientists, Evangelicals, and other even more dangerous cultists - will be not only free but likely to homeschool their children and damage them in the process.
Honestly, kids need both public education and homeschooling. One or the other is not enough. They need a social environment AND parental nurturing for best outcomes.
This long-standing patriarchal tradition that children are the property of their parents, and especially their fathers, has got to end.
20
@19 I don't think homeschooled kids necessarily need public education, but they need to have social interaction with their peers. I knew a homeschooled girl when I was growing up, but she also did club sports and was in Irish dancing (where I met her), so she had plenty of interaction with other kids her age.
I think that in order to homeschool a child, you should have to have your kid in some activity that involves other children just to avoid maladjustment to society; I think most homeschooling parents do this anyway, but the whackos are probably less likely to do so and we might catch some early if they're required to when they submit their curriculum.
I think that in order to homeschool a child, you should have to have your kid in some activity that involves other children just to avoid maladjustment to society; I think most homeschooling parents do this anyway, but the whackos are probably less likely to do so and we might catch some early if they're required to when they submit their curriculum.
21
@19: Restricting the right to homeschool is a terrible idea that eats away at the foundations of an informed democracy, as well as individual liberty. Not allowing anyone to homeschool means that people with a pathological desire to control, e.g., the government and school boards, will be likely to damage kids in the process.
I'm more worried about the government and public education damaging kids than a few Evangelicals. Who cares what kids need for best outcomes: the question is what justifies the government breaking into people's houses and monitoring how they raise their kids. Unless there's pretty clear abuse, the government has no business doing that.
Besides, the government and school curricula do a way better job brainwashing and indoctrinating kids, and crushing their intellectual development and curiosity, than any parent could ever do.
I'm more worried about the government and public education damaging kids than a few Evangelicals. Who cares what kids need for best outcomes: the question is what justifies the government breaking into people's houses and monitoring how they raise their kids. Unless there's pretty clear abuse, the government has no business doing that.
Besides, the government and school curricula do a way better job brainwashing and indoctrinating kids, and crushing their intellectual development and curiosity, than any parent could ever do.
23
"...the question is what justifies the government breaking into people's houses and monitoring how they raise their kids. Unless there's pretty clear abuse, the government has no business doing that."
This seems to be at least part of the point Dan is making. Nobody seems to have been watching out for those kids. When a child is being abused, teachers, grandparents, neighbors are often the ones to see the signs and report it. In a purposefully isolated household of likely mentally ill people, who were you expecting to see signs of abuse and report them?
"...the question is what justifies the government breaking into people's houses and monitoring how they raise their kids. Unless there's pretty clear abuse, the government has no business doing that."
This seems to be at least part of the point Dan is making. Nobody seems to have been watching out for those kids. When a child is being abused, teachers, grandparents, neighbors are often the ones to see the signs and report it. In a purposefully isolated household of likely mentally ill people, who were you expecting to see signs of abuse and report them?
24
Count me in the anti-homeschooling camp. Primary education should be compulsory--either at public schools or at accredited private schools. Exceptions should be granted only on a case-by-case basis, and should require annual standardized testing to ensure that benchmarks are being met.
Of course, I know my position is contrary to US law, and that law is not likely to change. My position on pot is also contrary to current US law, and those laws are also unlikely to change, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong about pot (or about homeschooling).
Anecdotal evidence about good homeschooling outcomes are no more convincing than any other anecdotal evidence. The greatest good for the greatest number, combined with harm minimization, should be the primary public policy goal.
Of course, I know my position is contrary to US law, and that law is not likely to change. My position on pot is also contrary to current US law, and those laws are also unlikely to change, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong about pot (or about homeschooling).
Anecdotal evidence about good homeschooling outcomes are no more convincing than any other anecdotal evidence. The greatest good for the greatest number, combined with harm minimization, should be the primary public policy goal.
25
@21"Who cares what kids need for best outcomes: the question is what justifies the government breaking into people's houses and monitoring how they raise their kids."
You seem to be confusing a person's child with a person's television set. The difference, you see, is that while your television actually belongs to you, your child does not. A child is in the temporary guardianship of their parents until such time as they reach adulthood and can handle their own affairs, and parents are held to certain minimum requirements as to their children's welfare. Don't like the government telling you you can't starve your children, break their legs, or lock them in an isolation unit and that they want some minimal amount of proof that you aren't doing those things? Don't breed.
You seem to be confusing a person's child with a person's television set. The difference, you see, is that while your television actually belongs to you, your child does not. A child is in the temporary guardianship of their parents until such time as they reach adulthood and can handle their own affairs, and parents are held to certain minimum requirements as to their children's welfare. Don't like the government telling you you can't starve your children, break their legs, or lock them in an isolation unit and that they want some minimal amount of proof that you aren't doing those things? Don't breed.
27
@21, I was going to actually respond to your... rather vigorous argument, until I got to "Who cares what kids need for best outcomes," at which point I realized that you are either a troll or a psychopath and that it would be a colossal waste of my time to try any kind of appeal to logic or humanitarian ethics on you.
28
Wow Dan, had no idea you were so anti-homeschooling! I was homeschooled through 8th grade and in most classes I was way ahead of all my peers in the private school I attended. Homeschooling isn't the problem, the parents are the problem. I had plenty of social interaction growing up and I am grateful my parents made the sacrifices necessary to keep my sister and I at home.
29
Dan, I admire you, but please don't file this one under "They will know we are Christians". You know as well as I that no true Christian believes or behaves like this. This is insanity, not religion.
30
Dan, seriously, cut it out with all the homeschooling hate. I was homeschooled, and I'm now 21, well-adjusted, and getting straight A's in college. I'm not Christian, and neither are my parents. All of my friends who were also homeschooled turned out equally well-adjusted and successful, and of those who were religious, none were part of some crazy cult (Christian or otherwise.)
People often accuse you of implying that all Christians are crazy homophobic child-killing monsters. But you've responded to those accusations and acknowledged the existence of sane Christians. How about acknowledging the existence of sane homeschoolers?
People often accuse you of implying that all Christians are crazy homophobic child-killing monsters. But you've responded to those accusations and acknowledged the existence of sane Christians. How about acknowledging the existence of sane homeschoolers?
31
I think there need to be some basic standards for homeschooling, and the kids I play with in the pipe band, who are homeschooled, by the way agree with me. If you're going to keep your child out of school, that's fine. But you need to be doing a comparable job to the public schools in order to continue. Your child will need to be tested AT A PROCTORED EXAM (not at home; where it is impossible to control how much help a child gets, or how long they have to take the exam, without anything other than a promise). If your child does not meet guidelines, you will need to justify why (learning disability, extenuating circumstance such as major illness that would have delayed progress in a normal classroom). If you can't, your kid goes to public school. I'm sorry, but it's too important. It may be your right to teach your child how you want to, but it's my right to expect that you will be raising a basically literate individual who can function productively in society (ie hold down a job and look after yourself). I know lots of homeschoolers, and I would say right now it's halvsies on who is successful and who isn't. This is kind of like vaccines. What you do affects me and mine. I have a right to ensure you're doing a good job.
32
@31, school is nothing like vaccines, that's not a good comparison. There is objective evidence showing that kids who are not vaccinated can negatively affect kids who are. There is zero evidence showing that kids who are homeschooled negatively affect kids who go to public school.
There is also zero evidence showing that kids who are homeschooled are less likely to be literate or mathematically competent or independent adults. Only when you can provide such evidence does it make any sense to suggest mandatory educational assessments by the state.
There is also zero evidence showing that kids who are homeschooled are less likely to be literate or mathematically competent or independent adults. Only when you can provide such evidence does it make any sense to suggest mandatory educational assessments by the state.
33
@24, if you could provide any evidence whatsoever that children who are homeschooled are less likely to be academically or socially prepared for adulthood, then your suggestion that kids should be forced into state schooling wouldn't be quite so ridiculous.
There are lots and lots of kids who thrive in public education, who enjoy the process and benefit from it. There are also lots and lots of kids who are miserable in public school and discouraged from learning because of it. This is because kids, like adults, are individuals, and they learn in different ways.
Suggesting that all kids benefit equally from public education, or that kids are more likely to benefit from public education than from home education, is as supported by scientific evidence as claims of a Great Flood and a big boat carrying two of every animal.
There are lots and lots of kids who thrive in public education, who enjoy the process and benefit from it. There are also lots and lots of kids who are miserable in public school and discouraged from learning because of it. This is because kids, like adults, are individuals, and they learn in different ways.
Suggesting that all kids benefit equally from public education, or that kids are more likely to benefit from public education than from home education, is as supported by scientific evidence as claims of a Great Flood and a big boat carrying two of every animal.
34
Anyone who is really interested in education should watch the following video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL…
35
Another former homeschooler speaking up. I was homeschooled full time in eighth grade and part time for ninth and tenth (this was in Port Angeles, WA). My parents took me out of school because of bullying from fellow students as well as a couple of the teachers. I was all for it. The school district kept a very close eye on us, and we had to submit work and transcripts to them periodically for review. We met up with other local homeschooling families for classes my mother did not feel wholly comfortable handling herself (we all learned Latin together), and my sister and I had lots of extra curricular activities as well, like dance, music, and scouts. We were not isolated or socially stunted. Most of our fellow homeschoolers were the children of hippy-liberal types, and many of our science and current events projects had to do with environmental and social issues. We were not indoctrinated, though my mother is a lot more conservative than I or my sister ended up being. Our lives were not weird or freaky or cultish, nor were the lives of any of the other homeschoolers I grew up knowing.
Yes, some psychos keep their kids home for fear of outside influences. They often cut themselves off from the rest of the world in other ways as well. But the vast majority of homeschooling families are are pretty average, made up of parents with the usual run of political views and kids who are no more than usually influenced by their parents.
Yes, some psychos keep their kids home for fear of outside influences. They often cut themselves off from the rest of the world in other ways as well. But the vast majority of homeschooling families are are pretty average, made up of parents with the usual run of political views and kids who are no more than usually influenced by their parents.
36
@19 (balderdash) There is no state in the Union where kids are felt to need public education. In every state, and in most countries in the world, private schools exist, and they're used by people with a pathological desire to control.
Silvio Levy
Silvio Levy
37
@19, there are plenty of examples of public school principals and teachers with a "pathological desire to control." You don't have to be religious to want to control other people.
38
@36, 37
Can't help but feel like you missed the point.
Kids who are being abused or underserved at home need a social environment and non-family trustworthy adults they can interact with. Kids who are being underserved or abused at school need to be able to report to and learn from their parents. The welfare of children is too important to be left in the hands of any single party, governmental or private. It is my feeling that at the present time, control over kids' lives rests much too firmly in the hands of parents, who are not, unlike teachers or administrators at schools, overseen by or responsible to public servants whose job it is to see to it that common standards are met; but the solution to that is not, nor did I ever suggest it was, to remove parents from the equation or to give public schools equally inappropriate power over students.
Can't help but feel like you missed the point.
Kids who are being abused or underserved at home need a social environment and non-family trustworthy adults they can interact with. Kids who are being underserved or abused at school need to be able to report to and learn from their parents. The welfare of children is too important to be left in the hands of any single party, governmental or private. It is my feeling that at the present time, control over kids' lives rests much too firmly in the hands of parents, who are not, unlike teachers or administrators at schools, overseen by or responsible to public servants whose job it is to see to it that common standards are met; but the solution to that is not, nor did I ever suggest it was, to remove parents from the equation or to give public schools equally inappropriate power over students.
39
Yeah! Let's send all kids to compulsory public schools!
Like the ones in the Atlanta Public Schools system:
http://news.yahoo.com/americas-biggest-t…
http://news.yahoo.com/
americas-biggest-teacher-principal-cheating-scandal-unfolds-atlanta-213734183.html
Compulsor-musts, anyone?
Like the ones in the Atlanta Public Schools system:
http://news.yahoo.com/americas-biggest-t…
http://news.yahoo.com/
americas-biggest-teacher-principal-cheating-scandal-unfolds-atlanta-213734183.html
Compulsor-musts, anyone?
40
To chime in on the homeschooling debate, homeschooling is like any other thing in society: when in the hands of good people, it can be a very positive thing; when in the hands of bad people, it can be a very negative thing.
I know a girl who was homeschooled by parents who are very conservative Christians, but nonetheless made every effort to make sure she was well-socialized and had a functional education. She just turned 18 and already has an associate degree, and is on her way to finish her bachelor's, and is happy and reasonably well-adjusted (albeit very prudish about random things). My husband, on the other hand, was "homeschooled" -- or at least, that's what his parents told the state they were doing, since they didn't actually give him lessons of any kind -- because they needed slave labor on their farm and because they were trying to isolate him from the outside world. He ended up not even able to get his GED because he has dyscalculia, which he would have been tested for had he stayed in a public school, or even had he been required to take standardized tests, and to this day is shockingly ignorant of a lot of reasonably basic things (which is not to say he's not incredibly intelligent, but jesus, the things I've had to tell him about!)
So I say absolutely children should be allowed to be homeschooled. But it's absolutely vital that homeschooled children be required to regularly demonstrate at least basic proficiency in the subjects that would have been taught in public schools. No big government thought police, just, "So, Billy, what have you been learning this year?" and whatever test all the other kids in the state are expected to pass.
I know a girl who was homeschooled by parents who are very conservative Christians, but nonetheless made every effort to make sure she was well-socialized and had a functional education. She just turned 18 and already has an associate degree, and is on her way to finish her bachelor's, and is happy and reasonably well-adjusted (albeit very prudish about random things). My husband, on the other hand, was "homeschooled" -- or at least, that's what his parents told the state they were doing, since they didn't actually give him lessons of any kind -- because they needed slave labor on their farm and because they were trying to isolate him from the outside world. He ended up not even able to get his GED because he has dyscalculia, which he would have been tested for had he stayed in a public school, or even had he been required to take standardized tests, and to this day is shockingly ignorant of a lot of reasonably basic things (which is not to say he's not incredibly intelligent, but jesus, the things I've had to tell him about!)
So I say absolutely children should be allowed to be homeschooled. But it's absolutely vital that homeschooled children be required to regularly demonstrate at least basic proficiency in the subjects that would have been taught in public schools. No big government thought police, just, "So, Billy, what have you been learning this year?" and whatever test all the other kids in the state are expected to pass.
41
@38, I understand what you're saying, but I don't understand why you're saying it. Why is it your feeling that "at the present time, control over kids' lives rests much too firmly in the hands of parents...?" What evidence is there that kids are being raised less diligently now than in previous generations? And how, exactly, will we arrive at a government approved concept of "common standards" for raising kids? Is yelling allowed? Is spanking allowed? Is grounding allowed? What kind of entertainment is allowed? Violent video games? Movies with sexual content? What degree of biblical literalism would be allowed to be taught? Would parents get to teach their kids that astrology works or that psychics can read their future? Can parents teach their kids to not trust authority? Can parents teach their kids to admire the traits of Sarah Palin?
You see, what you're calling for is at the very least, somewhat complicated. And even if there was any evidence that kids were at greater risk being schooled at home or that kids were being raised with less care now than before (there isn't), a mandatory partnership with the government in raising kids would still be woefully misguided.
You see, what you're calling for is at the very least, somewhat complicated. And even if there was any evidence that kids were at greater risk being schooled at home or that kids were being raised with less care now than before (there isn't), a mandatory partnership with the government in raising kids would still be woefully misguided.
42
@40, I do completely understand where you're coming from with this. And I completely agree with you that there are bad homeschoolers and good ones, bad teachers and good ones. On the face of it, it makes sense. But the vast majority of homeschooling parents care intensely about their kids' education.
If the government knocked on every family's door once a year to make sure that the kids were properly fed, clothed, and not abused, it would be incredibly insulting and a waste of time for the vast, vast majority of parents. Considering the fact that with the resources we have, we're still unable to guarantee that public high school graduates can perform at elementary school level, or that kids in foster care aren't being abused and neglected, it seems unlikely that regular checks on the group with the largest proportion of demonstrably dedicated parents is a good use time or money.
Sadly, there will always be kids who are abused and/or neglected. I worked with such kids for many years. But I honestly don't think that those inescapable tragedies justify the kind of invasion of privacy by the state you're describing (as minimal as it is). Again, just as most parents don't neglect or abuse their kids and don't deserve annual inspections, the same is true for homeschoolers regarding their children's education.
If the government knocked on every family's door once a year to make sure that the kids were properly fed, clothed, and not abused, it would be incredibly insulting and a waste of time for the vast, vast majority of parents. Considering the fact that with the resources we have, we're still unable to guarantee that public high school graduates can perform at elementary school level, or that kids in foster care aren't being abused and neglected, it seems unlikely that regular checks on the group with the largest proportion of demonstrably dedicated parents is a good use time or money.
Sadly, there will always be kids who are abused and/or neglected. I worked with such kids for many years. But I honestly don't think that those inescapable tragedies justify the kind of invasion of privacy by the state you're describing (as minimal as it is). Again, just as most parents don't neglect or abuse their kids and don't deserve annual inspections, the same is true for homeschoolers regarding their children's education.
44
@27: You quoted part of a sentence out of context. I'm neither a troll nor a psychopath, although I strongly disagree with you.
To clarify what I meant by the sentence you quoted part of:
While we can debate what gives kids the best outcomes, that isn't relevant for the current discussion, which is about what should be legally required for kids' education. Although one method of parenting or teaching might result in the best outcomes, there are costs as well as benefits to mandating that particular method by law, and the costs include allowing the government to forcibly enter homes without a warrant to check for educational compliance.
Of course I care about the outcome of raising kids; my point was that just because something leads to the best outcome doesn't mean we should legally require it.
To clarify what I meant by the sentence you quoted part of:
While we can debate what gives kids the best outcomes, that isn't relevant for the current discussion, which is about what should be legally required for kids' education. Although one method of parenting or teaching might result in the best outcomes, there are costs as well as benefits to mandating that particular method by law, and the costs include allowing the government to forcibly enter homes without a warrant to check for educational compliance.
Of course I care about the outcome of raising kids; my point was that just because something leads to the best outcome doesn't mean we should legally require it.
45
Don't be harshin' on the homeschooling. A lot of kids in loving homes get secular schooling at home (including some of mine) because public school sucks granite boulders through soda straws.
46
@45 is correct. There are more secular, liberal homeschoolers than ever, and the number is only increasing.
47
Reminds me of Roch Theriault. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roch_Th%C3%…
Coincidentally, he was known by his followers as "Moses."
Coincidentally, he was known by his followers as "Moses."
48
I'm speaking up for the "homeschooling is not the problem" camp. We are a liberal, secular homeschooling family whose kids are involved in dance, swimming, circus arts, karate, model rocket launching, and other activities. We homeschool because we want the kids to have a wider experience of the world than they would in the school system. They spend time with a greater variety of people, travel more, and are involved in more activities because they have more time. They also score significantly above grade level on standardized tests. We find that the children in most of the homeschooling families we know have excellent social skills and are getting excellent educations. In fact, a number of people we know homeschool in part to avoid the kind of school atmosphere that creates the situations that lead to the It Gets Better campaign.
Now, a few examples of well-socialized, happy, smart homeschooled kids does not mean all homeschooled kids are doing well and getting a great education. But nor does a few examples of crazy abusive homeschooling families mean all homeschooling families are crazy and abusive.
Unless you have evidence that homeschoolers abuse their children much more frequently than parents with kids in school, implying that homeschooling is the problem is no different from implying that the problem with an abusive family is that it has gay parents. Because we all know that gays molest kids, right? Just like we all know that homeschoolers are crazed religious nuts who don't expose their kids to the outside world.
Now, a few examples of well-socialized, happy, smart homeschooled kids does not mean all homeschooled kids are doing well and getting a great education. But nor does a few examples of crazy abusive homeschooling families mean all homeschooling families are crazy and abusive.
Unless you have evidence that homeschoolers abuse their children much more frequently than parents with kids in school, implying that homeschooling is the problem is no different from implying that the problem with an abusive family is that it has gay parents. Because we all know that gays molest kids, right? Just like we all know that homeschoolers are crazed religious nuts who don't expose their kids to the outside world.
49
I don't think that allowing homeschooling is in the best interests of children. Sure, there are parents out there who do it the right way, for the right reasons, but the mild-to-moderate benefits that their kids get from it are not worth the massive harms that befall children whose parents do it so they can abuse, indoctrinate, and/or isolate them unchallenged. I think that kids have a right to socialize with others their own age outside the family, be exposed to worldviews other than the one held by their parents, and be seen on a regular basis by adults other than their parents who can monitor for signs of abuse. Simply mandating that homeschooled kids take tests isn't enough, because they'd only be seen once or twice a year and that's not nearly enough to detect abuse. Society has a clear and compelling interest in how its kids turn out. If homeschooling isn't banned outright, it should at least be tightly regulated - with parents having to prove that they are sane and stable before they are allowed to take their kids out of school.
50
@49, I can only guess from your post that you've never interacted with large numbers of homeschooled kids and their families. It's sad that you would deny to so many a method of education that has been proven to be successful and enduring and which brings so much joy to the families which practice it. It really makes as much sense as pointing to the many cases in which public schools have failed students and calling for their abolition.
You might as well say that autonomous child-rearing, the practice of raising one's children the way one sees fit without mandatory inspections from the government, isn't worth the massive harms that befall children whose parents abuse, neglect, or indoctrinate them. This is a fundamentally conservative, authoritarian viewpoint.
Most kids who are abused and neglected also go to school. There is absolutely zero evidence to support the idea that homeschooled kids are less socialized or otherwise prepared for life as an adult than kids who go to public school.
The premise upon which you base your opinion is as rooted in fact as claims that homosexuals are more likely to lead unhealthy lives than heterosexuals. It's as true as the creation myth and no less an impediment to real learning.
You might as well say that autonomous child-rearing, the practice of raising one's children the way one sees fit without mandatory inspections from the government, isn't worth the massive harms that befall children whose parents abuse, neglect, or indoctrinate them. This is a fundamentally conservative, authoritarian viewpoint.
Most kids who are abused and neglected also go to school. There is absolutely zero evidence to support the idea that homeschooled kids are less socialized or otherwise prepared for life as an adult than kids who go to public school.
The premise upon which you base your opinion is as rooted in fact as claims that homosexuals are more likely to lead unhealthy lives than heterosexuals. It's as true as the creation myth and no less an impediment to real learning.
51
@50: How do you feel about the use of the term 'unschooling' to distinguish bad homeschooling (indoctrination and isolation) from good homeschooling (community involvement, openness, independence)?
52
@51, that's a tough one. I know homeschoolers (with lesson plans and structured days) and I know unschoolers (with neither). I think it's possible to go wrong in either scenario, just as I've seen it done right. (Though with unschooling, the danger is more about neglect than indoctrination.) I think isolation in homeschooling is as rare as sexual assault is in public schools. Usually, religious fundamentalist homeschoolers are very sociable people and the ones I've encountered have never made an attempt to keep their kids away from the non-religious kids.
It would certainly be helpful to have a word that helped remind people that most homeschooling families aren't doing so because of a devotion to scripture, but rather for the practical advantages it brings. My first instinct is to suggest "religious homeschoolers," but I don't think that's fair to suggest that they are more likely to be doing things wrong. (I'm a liberal secularist, but I know several very religious families who would never dream of mistreating their kids. They may not be teaching them correct biology or critical thinking skills, but their reading, writing, and math are top notch and they are very much loved.)
And, again, since these cases of isolated kids being abused by religious family members are so rare, I'd hate to give the impression that it's something to do with an educational choice. Just as violence and neglect at public schools doesn't have a lot to do with the need for public education, but rather the fact that in a large and diverse society, there will always be tragedies that we can and should always attempt to avoid, while knowing they will inevitably occur.
Like I said, it's a tough call. "Bad parents" might be the best description of these homeschoolers I can think of.
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It would certainly be helpful to have a word that helped remind people that most homeschooling families aren't doing so because of a devotion to scripture, but rather for the practical advantages it brings. My first instinct is to suggest "religious homeschoolers," but I don't think that's fair to suggest that they are more likely to be doing things wrong. (I'm a liberal secularist, but I know several very religious families who would never dream of mistreating their kids. They may not be teaching them correct biology or critical thinking skills, but their reading, writing, and math are top notch and they are very much loved.)
And, again, since these cases of isolated kids being abused by religious family members are so rare, I'd hate to give the impression that it's something to do with an educational choice. Just as violence and neglect at public schools doesn't have a lot to do with the need for public education, but rather the fact that in a large and diverse society, there will always be tragedies that we can and should always attempt to avoid, while knowing they will inevitably occur.
Like I said, it's a tough call. "Bad parents" might be the best description of these homeschoolers I can think of.
53
@52: My understanding of unschooling is that unschoolers use lesson plans and structured days as tools, in the way that works for them, not that they need to avoid them completely.
I think the concern with religious fundy homeschoolers is not that the kids are abused or even physically or socially isolated from others, more that they're intellectually isolated. I agree that abuse and physical/social isolation are rare problems, but the concern is more that religious homeschoolers might keep kids away from mainstream media, and public libraries, and intellectually isolate them from disagreement with their religion, as well as keeping them away from correct biology and critical thinking skills (not that the public schools do much better with the last, unfortunately).
I suspect religious homeschoolers are much more likely to be doing things wrong in the sense of keeping them away from science or literature that conflicts with their religion. This isn't being a "bad parent" in the sense of abuse, but I think it is harmful and it does stifle kids' growth. But so do public schools, and as much as I'm opposed to religion, I think pretty much anything that keeps kids away from public schools is a good thing.
I think the concern with religious fundy homeschoolers is not that the kids are abused or even physically or socially isolated from others, more that they're intellectually isolated. I agree that abuse and physical/social isolation are rare problems, but the concern is more that religious homeschoolers might keep kids away from mainstream media, and public libraries, and intellectually isolate them from disagreement with their religion, as well as keeping them away from correct biology and critical thinking skills (not that the public schools do much better with the last, unfortunately).
I suspect religious homeschoolers are much more likely to be doing things wrong in the sense of keeping them away from science or literature that conflicts with their religion. This isn't being a "bad parent" in the sense of abuse, but I think it is harmful and it does stifle kids' growth. But so do public schools, and as much as I'm opposed to religion, I think pretty much anything that keeps kids away from public schools is a good thing.
54
@53, Homeschooling includes a very wide spectrum of activities.
Most homeschoolers fall somewhere in the middle of formal schooling at home and a completely child-guided approach, using a blend of structure and chaos to match the personalities of the kids and their parents.
Here's a good mainstream interview with some unschooling parents who explain themselves quite well:
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Parenting/vide…
And here's a monthly column at Psychology Today by a researcher who speaks out against all attempts at coercive education.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/free…
And I do completely agree that religious homeschoolers are more likely to be doing things that aren't conducive to learning or living objectively in the real world.
Most homeschoolers fall somewhere in the middle of formal schooling at home and a completely child-guided approach, using a blend of structure and chaos to match the personalities of the kids and their parents.
Here's a good mainstream interview with some unschooling parents who explain themselves quite well:
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Parenting/vide…
And here's a monthly column at Psychology Today by a researcher who speaks out against all attempts at coercive education.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/free…
And I do completely agree that religious homeschoolers are more likely to be doing things that aren't conducive to learning or living objectively in the real world.
55
It seems to me that the problem isn't homeschooling but poor national healthcare provision.
In the UK, where healthcare is free to everyone, a doctor, practice nurse or health visitor would more than likely have noticed this case. Where people have to pay to get healthcare, it must be more common for children to rarely be seen by a health professional, whether their parents are abusive or not, and so easier to hide.
And having said that, it's really impossible to know for sure if people really mean to hide it. A girl I went to school with was regularly sexually abused by her father after her mother died, and none of us knew a thing about it, including the teachers, and including her brothers who lived with them. She only spoke up about it when she left home, because she was afraid he'd start on her younger sister.
In the UK, where healthcare is free to everyone, a doctor, practice nurse or health visitor would more than likely have noticed this case. Where people have to pay to get healthcare, it must be more common for children to rarely be seen by a health professional, whether their parents are abusive or not, and so easier to hide.
And having said that, it's really impossible to know for sure if people really mean to hide it. A girl I went to school with was regularly sexually abused by her father after her mother died, and none of us knew a thing about it, including the teachers, and including her brothers who lived with them. She only spoke up about it when she left home, because she was afraid he'd start on her younger sister.
56
This is obviously an isolated incident done by a lunatic cult leader. It is hardly indicative of Christians or home school parents. I don't condone hate on any side of any issue & to insinuate there is some sort of connection is simply hateful. You should be ashamed. Really.
Would we like to have someone print all the cases of homosexual pedophilia, child pornography, & sex abuse on one side of a piece of paper & all the cases of pedophilia, child porn, & sex abuse of the rest of our society on the other? I don't think it would paint a very pretty picture of the GLBT community.
Let's not look for reasons to hate anyone...even those who may hate you.
Would we like to have someone print all the cases of homosexual pedophilia, child pornography, & sex abuse on one side of a piece of paper & all the cases of pedophilia, child porn, & sex abuse of the rest of our society on the other? I don't think it would paint a very pretty picture of the GLBT community.
Let's not look for reasons to hate anyone...even those who may hate you.
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