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News & ArtsThursday, July 7, 2011
Savage Love Hey, Monogamists: What Would You Tell This Guy?
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 12:34 PM
Talking about abstractions—ideals and civilizations and the wisdom of keeping it in your pants generally—is easy. Giving useful advice to real people? That's hard. Take the below letter from a miserable, sexually-deprived, but faithful married man. I'm curious what the adultery-is-always-wrong crowd would advise him to do:
First, I love my wife. Sadly, she’s been ill for many years, however not to the point where she’s not able to work or do many normal activities, but she is in pain, so I can understand her not wanting to have a dick inside her. But honestly I’ve been very supportive and would accept any sort of sex (and I’ve asked). I think she feels very un-sexy, but she is really very pretty and I tell her that often. I’ve done everything I can think of to entice her to want to have sex. Romance, flirting, sex talk, counseling (years ago)… but we just fail. We’re pushing 18 years of marriage and sex has not
been a part of this relationship for most of that time. I am very sexual and have always been so. I feel really guilty most of the time because of my intense desires, but I feel that life is so short and time is running out. I’m 40 and not getting any better looking. Since I married her I feel I made a deal to stay no matter what, I believe in our marriage, but I thought sex would be a part of that. What do you tell other’s in my situation? Do I just deal with it, since I agreed to stay “for better or worse,” or is “no sex” a deal breaker?
I wrote this guy back and asked a followup question:
Has your wife ever given you the okay to get your sexual needs met elsewhere? To do what you need to do? And what's your honest opinion: would your wife rather be divorced or cheated on
He wrote back:
I know she would divorce me if I cheated. There’s no doubt. I feel pretty confident that having open marriage would be off the table—she is very jealous. She takes fidelity very seriously. As do I. I’ve been thinking about trying to ask if there’s anything we can do, but history has been very tough on this subject. As you can imagine, she becomes very defensive and will typically cry and say that she fears that I'll leave her. As time goes on the subject seems to become more and more taboo. I know she feels bad about the situation (she loves me) but I’m not sure if after all these years anything will change.
My advice for him:
Do what you need to do to stay sane.
I'm curious what the monogamusts blogging at the New York Times, weighing in at the Dish, and lurking here on Slog would advise this guy to do. He says he's been patient, loving, supportive—and just as a thought experiment, monogamusts, try giving the guy the benefit of the doubt. (When confronted with a sex-deprived spouse, monogamusts will often insist that the sex-deprived spouse has to be doing something terribly, terribly wrong. Just this you're not allowed to argue that this guy, for instance, would be getting laid if only he were a more patient, more helpful, more loving, more understanding, etc.) And this couple has already gone the counseling route, years ago, and it didn't get them anywhere. Talking about sex upsets his ill wife, makes her feel insecure and unhappy, and her misery has made his misery a taboo subject. That's pretty typical: the misery that sexually-deprived spouses endure—to say nothing of emotional violence that 15+ years of constant sexual rejection represents—is rarely acknowledged. Try to acknowledge it in your response. Also: What if there are kids involved? What if the ill spouse relies on the deprived spouse for health insurance?
To recap: I told him to do what he needs to do. What would you tell him to do, Ross?
2
I'd tell him to show her the letter, and say that the current situation is not working for him. Ask for her thoughts on how they can bring some kind of sex into the marriage. If she divorces him for bringing up this topic (or refuses to discuss it at all), then she wasn't as devoted to his happiness as he was to hers, and it's better that he find that out at 40 than at 60.
3
This is off the table. That is off the table. I say take up porn. If she doesn't like that, too bad.
4
I can't make an argument as a strict proponent of monogamy. And I'm not even going to give it a hypothetical try.
I just want to say that I feel horrible for this guy. It sounds like he's been depriving himself for the sake of his wife for nearly half of his life. And, further, I'd argue that his wife is being emotionally manipulative in threatening divorce for any infidelity. Here's a man who's put his needs secondary for the better part of two decades and she's willing to let that go over a little sex? Sex that would probably make her husband more patient with her? It also seems rather short sighted and masochistic on her end. After all what chance does she think she has of finding someone to love her, marry her and stick around for 18 years while she never has sex with him? This seems like a recipe for an eventual divorce - a divorce neither party wants - over a little bit of sex. What a shame.
Also, I so want to offer this poor man a pity fuck. I can be discreet (the offer on this post notwithstanding).
I just want to say that I feel horrible for this guy. It sounds like he's been depriving himself for the sake of his wife for nearly half of his life. And, further, I'd argue that his wife is being emotionally manipulative in threatening divorce for any infidelity. Here's a man who's put his needs secondary for the better part of two decades and she's willing to let that go over a little sex? Sex that would probably make her husband more patient with her? It also seems rather short sighted and masochistic on her end. After all what chance does she think she has of finding someone to love her, marry her and stick around for 18 years while she never has sex with him? This seems like a recipe for an eventual divorce - a divorce neither party wants - over a little bit of sex. What a shame.
Also, I so want to offer this poor man a pity fuck. I can be discreet (the offer on this post notwithstanding).
7
I'd need to know more about their circumstances. Kids? Unemployed? Is this a marriage of equals or is he financially dependent? What does he lose if he divorces her?
Depending on the answers, I'd suggest he see a lawyer about filing for divorce himself, not in anger, but in sadness, and move on unless she's willing to reach some accommodation. If she's still not, then it's definitely time to go.
Depending on the answers, I'd suggest he see a lawyer about filing for divorce himself, not in anger, but in sadness, and move on unless she's willing to reach some accommodation. If she's still not, then it's definitely time to go.
8
My stance on monogamy is that cheating is wrong, but openly agreeing to sleep with other people is perfectly fine. It's the betrayal that's hurtful, not the sex itself. That said, this man's wife has practically pushed him to cheat. He's been astoundingly supportive for an insanely long time. I don't doubt his wife is ill, but if she really loves her husband, she will want him to be happy. He's made it clear that part of being happy is having sex. She doesn't HAVE to "give in" and let him have sex with her or do him any sexual favors. (Besides, if she's not into it, it will be painfully obvious and nobody will enjoy it.) But if she's not willing to find a compromise, than she is being extremely selfish. I've been pregnant, which is a lot like being ill for a long time, so I understand feeling unsexy. But an extremely patient and understanding husband deserves reciprocation. If this were a temporary situation, I would tell him to suck it up, but it seems like this has become the status quo and that is NOT OK.
So he needs to remind her of how patient and understanding he has been for EIGHTEEN YEARS. He should tell her he loves her but that he just can't live this way forever. She needs an ultimatum. She must either find a way to stomach having sex with her husband (And if she really cares about him, she will WANT to want him, which should make the process easier to swallow) OR she must allow him to find satisfaction elsewhere. If she can't do this for him, she doesn't deserve to keep him.
True love is selfless. It's not always effortless, but you should always have the desire to make your partner happy. Otherwise, it's not an equal relationship. To me, THAT'S a deal-breaker.
So he needs to remind her of how patient and understanding he has been for EIGHTEEN YEARS. He should tell her he loves her but that he just can't live this way forever. She needs an ultimatum. She must either find a way to stomach having sex with her husband (And if she really cares about him, she will WANT to want him, which should make the process easier to swallow) OR she must allow him to find satisfaction elsewhere. If she can't do this for him, she doesn't deserve to keep him.
True love is selfless. It's not always effortless, but you should always have the desire to make your partner happy. Otherwise, it's not an equal relationship. To me, THAT'S a deal-breaker.
9
She values fidelity ("sexual faithfulness to a spouse or partner"), but won't practice it herself? She can work and do many normal activities, but can't talk dirty, give him a handjob, and pretend to enjoy it for 5 minutes? "You can't have sex with me, but you can't have sex with anyone else either. If you try to talk to me about it, I will cry until you stop." He doesn't mention kids or any other reason to stay, other than a sense of duty to his commitment. At this point, I think it's HIS turn to decide what's on the table, and she can decide to take it or leave it.
10
Doesn't monogamy mean having one partner? Not zero.
He already isn't in a monogamous marriage if he never has sex with her.
I would say her fears are real and should be addressed, but not at the expense of his real needs.
I would suggest reading up on open marriages. Find a book he likes that has the right tone for him. After an introductory discussion with the wife have her read the book. This could give her a way to asses and process her feelings about the possibility of open up the marriage.
He already isn't in a monogamous marriage if he never has sex with her.
I would say her fears are real and should be addressed, but not at the expense of his real needs.
I would suggest reading up on open marriages. Find a book he likes that has the right tone for him. After an introductory discussion with the wife have her read the book. This could give her a way to asses and process her feelings about the possibility of open up the marriage.
11
He's 40. What are the chances he can stay monogamous, married and sexless for another 40 years? This is not a sustainable situation. If the situation is as he presents it, it's frankly admirable he's made it this long.
One option is to very carefully and very occasionally cheat, preferably with professionals, since they're likely to be more skilled at the secrecy game. I think it's an inferior option, because it's a clear betrayal of her trust,
The better option, ethically at least, is to sit down with her and explain the true nature of the situation. She will cry but in this particular case you need to push through. She needs to understand that the status quo will not work. Tell her you love her, and tell her that for years you've honored your monogamous relationship and gone without something very important to you, but that it's slowly driving you crazy. Tell her you don't know when you'll be pushed beyond the breaking point but that it happening is a matter of when, not if. You'd rather be sexual with her, but you could accept some degree of liberty as a secondary, inferior option. However she must leave the conversation understanding that this will eventually break your marriage, that you can't live the rest of your life without sex. You'd rather be sexual with her than others, and you'd rather be sexual with others than divorce, but one of those three things will have to happen, and she needs to decide which she sees as most possible and tolerable.
One option is to very carefully and very occasionally cheat, preferably with professionals, since they're likely to be more skilled at the secrecy game. I think it's an inferior option, because it's a clear betrayal of her trust,
The better option, ethically at least, is to sit down with her and explain the true nature of the situation. She will cry but in this particular case you need to push through. She needs to understand that the status quo will not work. Tell her you love her, and tell her that for years you've honored your monogamous relationship and gone without something very important to you, but that it's slowly driving you crazy. Tell her you don't know when you'll be pushed beyond the breaking point but that it happening is a matter of when, not if. You'd rather be sexual with her, but you could accept some degree of liberty as a secondary, inferior option. However she must leave the conversation understanding that this will eventually break your marriage, that you can't live the rest of your life without sex. You'd rather be sexual with her than others, and you'd rather be sexual with others than divorce, but one of those three things will have to happen, and she needs to decide which she sees as most possible and tolerable.
12
Given infidelity numbers, I think if we include nonconsensual nonmonogamy, the math shows that most people ARE nonmonogamous - they're just not admitting it. Like how 50 years ago, there were far fewer gay people because you wouldn't count closeted gays. If faced with a situation like this one, I'd bet that purported monogamists would instinctively just follow your advice, on the down-low, taking on the risk that if they were to be caught, the marriage would end.
It seems like the difference between consensual and nonconsensual monogamists is the faith (yes, I said "faith") that their partner can have a rational, reality-based discussion about the subject without turning it into a constant fight or source of fear, guilt, and paranoia.
Because that's really what it comes down to, right? You either take the risk up front and potentially get the greater pleasure returns later, or take the pleasure now and make the high risk payments for the rest of your married life.
It seems like the difference between consensual and nonconsensual monogamists is the faith (yes, I said "faith") that their partner can have a rational, reality-based discussion about the subject without turning it into a constant fight or source of fear, guilt, and paranoia.
Because that's really what it comes down to, right? You either take the risk up front and potentially get the greater pleasure returns later, or take the pleasure now and make the high risk payments for the rest of your married life.
13
It sounds to me like he's a monogamist, so I'm not sure that cheating is going to make him happy, either. Without knowing any more of their background, I would say DTNFA, and find somebody that he can be monogamous with, and who also wants to have sex.
14
If he leaves his sick wife because she's not meeting his sexual needs, he'll also be saying goodbye to his entire social circle and more than likely alienating himself from anyone in the family who is close to his wife.
It could well be worth it, though. He's only 40. There's still time for happiness.
It could well be worth it, though. He's only 40. There's still time for happiness.
15
On a positive note, if he cheats, the wife doesn't have to worry about sexually transmitted diseases. Sounds like she couldn't catch cold sores from him at this point.
16
Heartbreaking. I think they should give counseling another shot, because she doesn't seem to understand that their relationship is about two people. She needs to meet him the middle, they both have to give and take on the subject. He has every right to find some sexual satisfaction and if she can't physically perform then she needs to, for love and the health of their relationship, allow him to meet his needs through another avenue. I think a third party would convey that to her better, and may also offer support for her
anxiety if she is not willing or able. Of course it may not help, but not talking about it doesn't help either. I really feel for them, life often takes us places we don't want to go. It is sad that she is so ill, I know I live my life with a chronically ill person who is in pain and it is so easy to allow the illness to run the show. It's easy to grant the ill person extra grace, and they need it, but the illness needn't have so many victims and steps should be taken to lessen its ability to victimize others. That is my $0.02, but I would throw monogamy out the window if it meant that my life partner would have to suffer less. I couldn't ask him to be sexless or use the
gift of masturbation as his only sexual release.
anxiety if she is not willing or able. Of course it may not help, but not talking about it doesn't help either. I really feel for them, life often takes us places we don't want to go. It is sad that she is so ill, I know I live my life with a chronically ill person who is in pain and it is so easy to allow the illness to run the show. It's easy to grant the ill person extra grace, and they need it, but the illness needn't have so many victims and steps should be taken to lessen its ability to victimize others. That is my $0.02, but I would throw monogamy out the window if it meant that my life partner would have to suffer less. I couldn't ask him to be sexless or use the
gift of masturbation as his only sexual release.
17
Cheating implies not following the rules, right? Since when was depriving your spouse of any or all sex for years and years following the rules of marriage?
That's what gets me about these letters about one spouse being sexual pre-marriage, then after the marriage shutting off sexually. Is this not deceit, fraud, not following the rules? Is that not the definition of cheating? That's where I think Dan's advice in general at least gives some situational equity to the concept of "cheating".
From dicitonary.com
–verb (used without object)
4. to practice fraud or deceit: She cheats without regrets.
5. to violate rules or regulations: He cheats at cards.
6. to take an examination or test in a dishonest way, as by improper access to answers.
7. Informal . to be sexually unfaithful (often followed by on ): Her husband knew she had been cheating all along. He cheated on his wife.
I guess it fails in the common usage of #7. Can we change that please?
7. Informal . to be sexually unfaithful (often followed by on ). Her husband stopped going down on her after the marriage. He cheated on his wife.
Actually that is confusing. Thoughts?
7. Informal . to be sexually unfaithful (often followed by on ). Her husband stopped going down on her after the marriage. He cheated his wife (out of orgasms).
Better?
That's what gets me about these letters about one spouse being sexual pre-marriage, then after the marriage shutting off sexually. Is this not deceit, fraud, not following the rules? Is that not the definition of cheating? That's where I think Dan's advice in general at least gives some situational equity to the concept of "cheating".
From dicitonary.com
–verb (used without object)
4. to practice fraud or deceit: She cheats without regrets.
5. to violate rules or regulations: He cheats at cards.
6. to take an examination or test in a dishonest way, as by improper access to answers.
7. Informal . to be sexually unfaithful (often followed by on ): Her husband knew she had been cheating all along. He cheated on his wife.
I guess it fails in the common usage of #7. Can we change that please?
7. Informal . to be sexually unfaithful (often followed by on ). Her husband stopped going down on her after the marriage. He cheated on his wife.
Actually that is confusing. Thoughts?
7. Informal . to be sexually unfaithful (often followed by on ). Her husband stopped going down on her after the marriage. He cheated his wife (out of orgasms).
Better?
18
And I am under the assumption above that this has been a longstanding sexual withholding that has been exasperated by a recent illness - I'm sure the writer is leaving things out...
19
if she's been sick for a long time, chances are good that she's depressed as well. she may well benefit from getting her ass into therapy - not couples therapy, not therapy designed to make their sex life better, but therapy designed to make her life better in general. you can give all the ultimatums you want, but if the person you're talking to has been sucked into the black hole of depression, it won't matter. depression has a way of taking over your life in unexpected ways. i think everyone's right that they need to have a few frank talks about all this, but i'd wager she also needs some counseling of her own.
20
I'm not even a proponent of monogamy all the time and I don't think cheating is the answer. They have a friendship but it doesn't sound like much of a marriage. I think it's asking too much of him to say "cheat occasionally, keep that relationship secondary, stay with your wife." If he wants to be in a relationship with sex, that's something he should be able to pursue. If he wants to stay with her for health insurance and she wants to be part of that, that's one thing. But this sounds like the kind of situation that divorce was made for.
21
I can sympathize with her "If you have sex with someone else you'll fall in love and leave me and I'll die alone and homeless" insecurity. But maybe there are criteria she can place on his sex-on-the-side that will assuage her fears a little -- enough to make it ok for her. Such as: he only gets it from a paid pro, or he never has sex with anyone more than once/twice/thrice (obv that ups the STD risk, but if she's not fucking him it shouldn't matter to her), or... whatever. He's gotta explain that he needs this so that he DOESN'T leave her.
Sorry, clearly not a monogamust answer but I couldn't resist.
Sorry, clearly not a monogamust answer but I couldn't resist.
22
@18 "I love my wife. Sadly, she’s been ill for many years" that doesn't sound at all like a recent illness to me. Also "We’re pushing 18 years of marriage and sex has not
been a part of this relationship for most of that time" though he entered the marriage thinking sex was on the table. And since the only reasons he gives for his wife refusing are illness related I'm inclined to think that the illness began nearly 18 years ago.
been a part of this relationship for most of that time" though he entered the marriage thinking sex was on the table. And since the only reasons he gives for his wife refusing are illness related I'm inclined to think that the illness began nearly 18 years ago.
23
"We’re pushing 18 years of marriage and sex has not
been a part of this relationship for most of that time. I am very sexual and have always been so." -- This caught my attention. Why has he waited so long if the sex has been non-existent for over a decade?
Yes, it is important to fix a broken situation, but letting it linger for a long time gives an implicit "thumbs-up" to the other person, leading to a lot of pain should he leave now. What was he thinking when he entered into this marriage? Is there a cause of her pain, and is there a treatment?
For someone so stuck on some parts of monogamous marriage - "made a deal to stay" - he didn't seem to think the other parts through - marriage usually involves having sex and agreeing on frequency. He should divorce, cough up whatever financial support she's entitled to, and move on. They're stuck in an 18-year rut that hasn't gotten better; I doubt that counseling or an affair is going to improve things. Better to let her go quickly so she can find someone who is satisfied with her and he can find someone who satisfies him.
been a part of this relationship for most of that time. I am very sexual and have always been so." -- This caught my attention. Why has he waited so long if the sex has been non-existent for over a decade?
Yes, it is important to fix a broken situation, but letting it linger for a long time gives an implicit "thumbs-up" to the other person, leading to a lot of pain should he leave now. What was he thinking when he entered into this marriage? Is there a cause of her pain, and is there a treatment?
For someone so stuck on some parts of monogamous marriage - "made a deal to stay" - he didn't seem to think the other parts through - marriage usually involves having sex and agreeing on frequency. He should divorce, cough up whatever financial support she's entitled to, and move on. They're stuck in an 18-year rut that hasn't gotten better; I doubt that counseling or an affair is going to improve things. Better to let her go quickly so she can find someone who is satisfied with her and he can find someone who satisfies him.
24
Without knowing how ill the wife is, it's very hard to say. And without those details, his letter just makes him sound like a whiney man-child. Find some exciting porn and get yourself some nice lube. If staying married to your wife is really that important to you, you'll find a way to deal with not having sex.
25
I think, plainly, he must see what he values more: his marriage and its value to their children, or being something more like (to an uncertain extent) sexually fulfilled (including the value to his children of their father being a little saner).
I want to be the Devil's Advocate, and say that you really can live without sex. Perhaps a good many people think they cannot, but what they mean is that they want it so much that will have no control over their actions. Well, either you don't, in which case you should be pitied, or more if what you can't control damages others or you do, in which case you can do your own cost-benefit analysis and act accordingly.
I don't know if this person needs "sex"; I think it very possible that he more needs "sex with wife", which has a tonne of associated meanings...I think if he turned elsewhere, he would have to imbue the new partner with a level of significance that would ruin his already-shaky marriage.
For me, I think I would stay, and remember that it is better to masturbate than to burn (metaphorically, not in literally in Paul's mythical horroshow).
(The longest 'dry' period in my life? Seventeen years, for twelve of which I was conscious. I lived.)
I want to be the Devil's Advocate, and say that you really can live without sex. Perhaps a good many people think they cannot, but what they mean is that they want it so much that will have no control over their actions. Well, either you don't, in which case you should be pitied, or more if what you can't control damages others or you do, in which case you can do your own cost-benefit analysis and act accordingly.
I don't know if this person needs "sex"; I think it very possible that he more needs "sex with wife", which has a tonne of associated meanings...I think if he turned elsewhere, he would have to imbue the new partner with a level of significance that would ruin his already-shaky marriage.
For me, I think I would stay, and remember that it is better to masturbate than to burn (metaphorically, not in literally in Paul's mythical horroshow).
(The longest 'dry' period in my life? Seventeen years, for twelve of which I was conscious. I lived.)
26
Monogamist or no: if there are no kids (and I assume he'd've mentioned it if there were), he should man up and serve her with divorce papers. Maybe they can be friends afterward, probably they can't, but if she's well enough to work and do "many normal activities", she's well enough to find a friend+roommate (which is all he is at this point) who can help her with the grocery shopping but won't badger her with never-to-be-fulfilled requests for sex. And he's still got enough time to find a girlfriend or two before settling down with wife #2.
Yes, her friends and relatives will hate him. Oh well. Maybe it's a good time to move to another city anyway.
Yes, her friends and relatives will hate him. Oh well. Maybe it's a good time to move to another city anyway.
27
I haven't read all the comments, and I'm sure I'll be eviscerated for this, but I'm a monogamist so I'll do what Dan *asked* and give my untrained 2cents.
Suck it up. For better *or worse*, in *sickness* and health, you promised to be monogamous and forsake all others. A marriage is bigger than the 2 people in it, it's a commitment and a promise and it means more than fleeting pleasures or jerking off into a person instead of a tissue. You made a promise, without being able to see the future, to not have sex with anyone besides your wife. Unless you wrote it into your vows, the "unless you turn me down because then all bets are off" loophole wasn't there for her to agree to or object to. If you'd gone into this as an open marriage, that would be one thing. But you sold her on the idea of a lifemate who would be faithful to her and support her until she died. It's a bait and switch to give her an ultimatum now. Is it fair that she's sick and in pain and doesn't want sex anymore? No. Did anyone ever say life would be fair? Not to me, they didn't. She has, through an illness, made your marriage less than ideal. You're asking for permission to, through a refusal to see sex as a want rather than a need, make her marriage miserable and devastating.
Jerk off. A LOT. Have all the orgasm you want with all the famous hot willing flexible women you want, but do it without anyone else in the room. Buy lots of porn, or learn to photoshop it yourself, and have at it. But before you decide to hurt your wife, just do the decent thing and divorce her. She deserves someone who finishes what he starts before starting something new.
Suck it up. For better *or worse*, in *sickness* and health, you promised to be monogamous and forsake all others. A marriage is bigger than the 2 people in it, it's a commitment and a promise and it means more than fleeting pleasures or jerking off into a person instead of a tissue. You made a promise, without being able to see the future, to not have sex with anyone besides your wife. Unless you wrote it into your vows, the "unless you turn me down because then all bets are off" loophole wasn't there for her to agree to or object to. If you'd gone into this as an open marriage, that would be one thing. But you sold her on the idea of a lifemate who would be faithful to her and support her until she died. It's a bait and switch to give her an ultimatum now. Is it fair that she's sick and in pain and doesn't want sex anymore? No. Did anyone ever say life would be fair? Not to me, they didn't. She has, through an illness, made your marriage less than ideal. You're asking for permission to, through a refusal to see sex as a want rather than a need, make her marriage miserable and devastating.
Jerk off. A LOT. Have all the orgasm you want with all the famous hot willing flexible women you want, but do it without anyone else in the room. Buy lots of porn, or learn to photoshop it yourself, and have at it. But before you decide to hurt your wife, just do the decent thing and divorce her. She deserves someone who finishes what he starts before starting something new.
29
#8 is right on. The man in this marriage has proved -- over and over again -- that he cares about his wife. It's time for the wife to prove that she cares about her husband.
30
@11 nails it. It's funny - sexual monagamy was SO important to me as a younger woman. Then I had a baby, and something about the physical process of pregnancy and birth caused me to have a revelation. Love is love, and sex is biology. Sometimes the two overlap, and sometimes not. And that's ok. Somehow, LW, you have to be able to convince your wife that your biological needs will not destroy your love for her if they are met elsewhere. (Can I also just add that as a Canadian, this whole "but what if she loses her health care" thing blows my fucking mind. Horrific.)
31
@ 27 your idea sounds so easy for you to really think hard about and type out. this person's life is passing by. could you spend you life on an idea? @4, i agree, seriously.
32
DTMFA. This is not a monogamy question; even if you could get an open marriage agreement, why would you stay with someone without any erotic intimacy whatsoever? If you're well enough to take out the garbage, you're well enough to say or do *something* to sexually please your partner. Your spouse is not being faithful to you. Your zombie marriage died some time ago.
33
I'm not a strict monogamist/monogamust myself, but if I were, I still wouldn't hold the opinion that unmet sexual needs is a bad reason to leave a relationship. So my advice with my monogamy hat on would be:
Find a sex-positive therapist who isn't averse to divorce being a solution. The husband should go in alone, first, and explain to the therapist what and why he feels how he does. Then bring the wife in, and have the therapist help explain the problem, figure out where she's at, and DON'T STOP therapy until a solution has been found that both parties can live with. If the solution stops working, GO BACK to therapy. If a solution cannot be found and the therapist agrees divorce would be better for both parties, then get as friendly a divorce as possible. And start dating other people.
Particularly if there are kids involved, a husband shouldn't risk looking the The Bad Guy by cheating. Do it honestly -- there may still be hurt feelings and resentment but it won't fester and ooze the way found out secrets do.
Find a sex-positive therapist who isn't averse to divorce being a solution. The husband should go in alone, first, and explain to the therapist what and why he feels how he does. Then bring the wife in, and have the therapist help explain the problem, figure out where she's at, and DON'T STOP therapy until a solution has been found that both parties can live with. If the solution stops working, GO BACK to therapy. If a solution cannot be found and the therapist agrees divorce would be better for both parties, then get as friendly a divorce as possible. And start dating other people.
Particularly if there are kids involved, a husband shouldn't risk looking the The Bad Guy by cheating. Do it honestly -- there may still be hurt feelings and resentment but it won't fester and ooze the way found out secrets do.
34
Spend more time with Palmela Handerson. Do what is feasible with your wife; you can have intimacy without sex, you know.
You need to choose whether sex or your wife is more important to you at this point. If she'd rather that you end your relationship with her than go behind her back, you need to honor her wishes and either get a divorce or stay celibate.
You need to choose whether sex or your wife is more important to you at this point. If she'd rather that you end your relationship with her than go behind her back, you need to honor her wishes and either get a divorce or stay celibate.
35
@27, I think you have a hell of a double standard here. It's unlikely their marriage vows had the phrase "And I promise to only have sex with you". Monogamy was implied in the relationship when they married. You know what else was implied in the relationshio? Sex. Unless it's two asexuals getting married, in a monogamous marriage the assumption is that you will only have sex with your spouse. That, by definition, includes having sex with your spouse, which he isn't.
Never mind the notion that people should be allowed to revisit their former commitments when they become unsustainable. You allow for him to divorce his wife, which sure as fuck is an explicit violation of "till death do us part", so how then do you justify him trying to stay sane in some way (hopefully with permission) after she has unilaterally violated the implicit assumption of a marriage with sex?
Never mind the notion that people should be allowed to revisit their former commitments when they become unsustainable. You allow for him to divorce his wife, which sure as fuck is an explicit violation of "till death do us part", so how then do you justify him trying to stay sane in some way (hopefully with permission) after she has unilaterally violated the implicit assumption of a marriage with sex?
36
She takes his fidelity very seriously. But she is being horribly unfaithful and selfish in her own way. She's not monogamous; she doesn't have one sexual partner - she has none. And she is depriving him of one as well.
Listen. This wasn't what he signed on for. He signed on for a partnership. She has a duty to make an effort, to meet him halfway. She isn't. Sure, she probably feels horrible about it, sure it makes her cry to think about it, sure she feels guilty for emotionally manipulating him whenever the subject comes up. Tough break. She needs to make an effort, provide an accommodation, or let him go.
Ulyimatums should be rare in marriage. So rare, in fact, that more than one per spouse is almost always uncalled for. But now is his time to make one. It should be:
I love you, but I cannot live like this anymore, so you have three choices:
1. Put some effort into the long-neglected sexual aspect of the relaitonship; or
2. Let me discreetly and safely seek sex elsewhere; or
3. Let's get divorced.
Pick a choice. If you need a couple of weeks or some counseling to help you figure out what to do, let me know.
Good luck, LW. I recommend divorce, myself. But you owe it to yourself and her to give her the options.
Listen. This wasn't what he signed on for. He signed on for a partnership. She has a duty to make an effort, to meet him halfway. She isn't. Sure, she probably feels horrible about it, sure it makes her cry to think about it, sure she feels guilty for emotionally manipulating him whenever the subject comes up. Tough break. She needs to make an effort, provide an accommodation, or let him go.
Ulyimatums should be rare in marriage. So rare, in fact, that more than one per spouse is almost always uncalled for. But now is his time to make one. It should be:
I love you, but I cannot live like this anymore, so you have three choices:
1. Put some effort into the long-neglected sexual aspect of the relaitonship; or
2. Let me discreetly and safely seek sex elsewhere; or
3. Let's get divorced.
Pick a choice. If you need a couple of weeks or some counseling to help you figure out what to do, let me know.
Good luck, LW. I recommend divorce, myself. But you owe it to yourself and her to give her the options.
37
charlie @27:
I disagree (and I think that a lot of other people will too) but it's a fair commentary, and not dickish and blunt without being finger-wagging. Thanks.
I disagree (and I think that a lot of other people will too) but it's a fair commentary, and not dickish and blunt without being finger-wagging. Thanks.
38
Lynx @35: Most Christian ceremonies have a variant on "forsaking all others", for example, so, yes, chances are that clause was in there, just not in the way that you state it.
39
When a jelous spouse worries about their pertner leaving them for someone else it does not follow logically for them to lock down their partner which will in turn drive their partner away.
I know if I was married to this woman and she was jelous of me leaving her for others I would feel like I actually need to seek more than just sex outside of the relationship. It sounds like she might be clinging onto what he provides without being willing to provide anything, even flexibility, in return.
It is too soon to tell but he might need to DTMFA.
I know if I was married to this woman and she was jelous of me leaving her for others I would feel like I actually need to seek more than just sex outside of the relationship. It sounds like she might be clinging onto what he provides without being willing to provide anything, even flexibility, in return.
It is too soon to tell but he might need to DTMFA.
40
@23 It's not fair to ding him for holding on as long as he has. He's done everything he can according to the standard rules of marriage as defined by modern society. He's been patient, he's tried to discuss things, he's gone to counselling. Non-sex is considered an inappropriate reason to break up with someone, and leaving someone during an illness makes one look like scum.
Because this situation is long term, it is an extreme example that illustrates what constitutes a need and who is responsible for satisfying that need. I'm sympathetic to the wife not wanting her husband to have lovers, but it is unacceptable to demand fidelity from someone without doing your best to fulfill their real needs.
Because this situation is long term, it is an extreme example that illustrates what constitutes a need and who is responsible for satisfying that need. I'm sympathetic to the wife not wanting her husband to have lovers, but it is unacceptable to demand fidelity from someone without doing your best to fulfill their real needs.
41
Ya know what? I kinda feel like he should DTMFA, though perhaps it shouldn't be put that harshly. Either that or more counseling for both of them, and depression screenings as well. Because she just sounds like a selfish pity party. She's in pain and she's been sick - yeah that stinks. But I've spent a lot of time with people with terminal cancer, and I watched my childhood best friend struggle all her life with an absolutely horrible fatal illness before it finally killed her in her early 20s. LIFE GOES ON. No matter how unsexy she feels, if there are moments when she is not in constant pain or not exhausted, she could take the time out to just give her main source of support a BJ for cryin' out loud. Maybe I'll get smacked down by this, but there is no way she doesn't know that her husband is feeling this absence in his life, and she can't be bothered to make the effort. My best friend was capable of some spectacular moments of narcissism in her life, as I felt she was entitled to, given that she spent her entire life with a death sentence hovering over her. Hell, you try living life knowing that you'll probably be dead before you're drinking age. But she was also capable of amazing moments of empathy that still blow me away to this day (the memories of which have me crying as I type this). There were things in my life that I could not have gotten through without her. This woman continually makes it all about her, based on the LW's description. And that sucks. She'd divorce him for straying after denying him any form of sex for EIGHTEEN YEARS? That's just selfish. I'm sorry that she's been sick, but that doesn't mean you get to abdicate your humanity and make your spouse miserable.
42
alanmt1 @36: If she chooses "1" ("Put some effort into the long-neglected sexual aspect of the relaitonship") the likelihood is that it will be a negativity-laced charity fuck, and those are arguably worse than enforced celibacy.
43
They'd tell him to suck it up and never have sex again; you know, the same thing they tell their priests and gay people. This isn't an actual question, is it?
My advice is, "Leave your wife, tomorrow. Denying you sex with her AND with everyone else is unfair. And next time, before you decide to get married in a fashion where you're making promises that extend the rest of your life, consider how absurd that is, given that change is a universal constant and that a majority of marriages end in divorce (as opposed to death)."
My advice is, "Leave your wife, tomorrow. Denying you sex with her AND with everyone else is unfair. And next time, before you decide to get married in a fashion where you're making promises that extend the rest of your life, consider how absurd that is, given that change is a universal constant and that a majority of marriages end in divorce (as opposed to death)."
44
Also, in response to Dan's question: "What if the ill spouse relies on the deprived spouse for health insurance?"
Then she's a fucking idiot for this bit: "I know she would divorce me if I cheated. There’s no doubt. I feel pretty confident that having open marriage would be off the table—she is very jealous. She takes fidelity very seriously."
If you're thoroughly dependent on a marriage for survival, making unreasonable/unrealistic demands (I don't consider e.g. "Don't beat me" to be unreasonable; I do consider "Never have partnered sex again as long as both of us are still alive" to be thoroughly unreasonable) in the context of that marriage is suicidal.
Then she's a fucking idiot for this bit: "I know she would divorce me if I cheated. There’s no doubt. I feel pretty confident that having open marriage would be off the table—she is very jealous. She takes fidelity very seriously."
If you're thoroughly dependent on a marriage for survival, making unreasonable/unrealistic demands (I don't consider e.g. "Don't beat me" to be unreasonable; I do consider "Never have partnered sex again as long as both of us are still alive" to be thoroughly unreasonable) in the context of that marriage is suicidal.
45
@22 - That's all true. But, like I said, he leaves out a lot of details so it's a little hard to comment. Actually, did I say that? I meant to. Regardless, his letter needs to be a little more expository. Details, people! Details!
46
Hmm, well, for starters, this guy does not have sexual "needs." He has "wants," reasonable ones, but they are not needs. He will not die if he never has sex again, though he may not be very happy.
This is part of the for better, for worse that he signed on for. It's lousy, but as Dan can attest to, it is not rare.
That said, I'm not convinced--with how little is here--that he cannot reach a happier outcome with his wife. It sounds as though he is deeply concerned about her and her illness, but I wonder how he talks to her. I often have been surprised how inarticulate and/or hesitant some people can be, even about very important topics. Some cannot bear to hurt someone, cannot stand being "the bad guy." So they downplay how important something is to them or they get weirdly passive aggressive, etc. And they tend to routinize these types of conversations down to a not-very-useful script.
Clearly, if his wife has been sick for a long time, she didn't get the life she had hoped for, either. A frank conversation, perhaps with a mediator of some sort who won't impose his/her values on the outcome but will push for honesty and respect of one another's preferences, would probably be a good starting point.
This is part of the for better, for worse that he signed on for. It's lousy, but as Dan can attest to, it is not rare.
That said, I'm not convinced--with how little is here--that he cannot reach a happier outcome with his wife. It sounds as though he is deeply concerned about her and her illness, but I wonder how he talks to her. I often have been surprised how inarticulate and/or hesitant some people can be, even about very important topics. Some cannot bear to hurt someone, cannot stand being "the bad guy." So they downplay how important something is to them or they get weirdly passive aggressive, etc. And they tend to routinize these types of conversations down to a not-very-useful script.
Clearly, if his wife has been sick for a long time, she didn't get the life she had hoped for, either. A frank conversation, perhaps with a mediator of some sort who won't impose his/her values on the outcome but will push for honesty and respect of one another's preferences, would probably be a good starting point.
47
I find it incredibly monstrous that people are suggesting to get porn and deal without sex. Sex isn't just about orgasms, you know. It's about intimacy and self-image and self-esteem and pleasing your partner and yourself. It's about bonding with another human being. If it were just about orgasms people WOULD just masturbate 24/7 and not bother with the hassle of relationships.
I say get a divorce. Period. If this person forces her into sex, it'll be joyless, sad sex and then he'll be the bad guy for manipulating her into it and then not being satisfied with it. If he gets some on the side--he says she's jealous--there's no way to beat around that short of actually lying to her. I think divorce is the only option. This person might love his wife but she is physically capable or wiling to love him back. Cut the months of suffering through trying to compromise, cut your losses, and get out.
I say get a divorce. Period. If this person forces her into sex, it'll be joyless, sad sex and then he'll be the bad guy for manipulating her into it and then not being satisfied with it. If he gets some on the side--he says she's jealous--there's no way to beat around that short of actually lying to her. I think divorce is the only option. This person might love his wife but she is physically capable or wiling to love him back. Cut the months of suffering through trying to compromise, cut your losses, and get out.
48
First of all @ 27, you're an idiot! Porn does not make up for sex with an actual human being. Total advice fail! Monogamy works for some but not all and I'd venture to speculate that monogamy that works actually involves having sex with your partner.
I on the other hand, have no advice but wanted to say that a sexless life is my worst nightmare. I love sex more than pretty much anything. It really freaks me out to realize there are tons of people who go thru this shit, lives of no sex. Not really a life is it?
I on the other hand, have no advice but wanted to say that a sexless life is my worst nightmare. I love sex more than pretty much anything. It really freaks me out to realize there are tons of people who go thru this shit, lives of no sex. Not really a life is it?
49
I'm in a monogamous relationship but really cringe at being called a 'monogamist'--makes it sound as though I disapprove of any other relationship (which I don't) along the lines of sexist, racist, etc. Anyway, if I were in that situation, I'd hope to be able to resign myself to the situation; however, as a compromise, I think I'd try to negotiate to be able to see a sex worker. I can totally understand the jealous (read insecure) aspect of allowing your partner to stray. How will he meet his hookup? In a bar? Any romance involved? Any relationship forming? Anyone they know? There's a lot of questions and the you-can-only-see-someone-once, no kissing, etc. rules seem to make finding a one night stand partner more tricky. However, if he saw a sex worker, it would be a business transaction and there would be much less reason for the wife to feel like she's losing her mate. I'd like to think if I were the wife, that I would accept this as a compromise.
50
We know what the monogamist fringe would say: "Your sex life is over, suffer. It's part of the noble sacrifice that is the Institution of Marriage" blah, blah, blah.
It's the disadvantage compassionate, rational people always face in a dialogue with zealots: We have rules for what is reasonable, and for what is right. They have none.
It's the disadvantage compassionate, rational people always face in a dialogue with zealots: We have rules for what is reasonable, and for what is right. They have none.
51
She is not being very loving (and is in fact being a real douche) for not addressing this problem and at least talking about solutions with him. This should be a conversation that SHE initiates if she cares at all about her husband's well-being, and solving the problem might involve her having to stomach some of that jealousy of hers. It's a very unusual problem and the remedy is bound to be unusual as well.
52
Here's how impossible I think the letter writer's situation is:
He doesn't just want sex. He doesn't just want sex with his wife. He wants his wife to want to have sex with him.
And she doesn't. And she knows that's what he wants and she knows that she can't give him that...
This is rejection at a core level...and the only way to solve it is for somebody to be the bad guy and hurt someone they love more than they're currently hurting--to hurt someone so bad that they accept the inevitability of change.
And even with change, there's no guarantee of happiness...because I don't think anyone in this scenario will end up getting what they want (although one person is guaranteed to always not get what they don't want.)
He doesn't just want sex. He doesn't just want sex with his wife. He wants his wife to want to have sex with him.
And she doesn't. And she knows that's what he wants and she knows that she can't give him that...
This is rejection at a core level...and the only way to solve it is for somebody to be the bad guy and hurt someone they love more than they're currently hurting--to hurt someone so bad that they accept the inevitability of change.
And even with change, there's no guarantee of happiness...because I don't think anyone in this scenario will end up getting what they want (although one person is guaranteed to always not get what they don't want.)
53
Just because you tried counseling years ago and you or it "failed" (no idea what that means, by the way) does not mean that therapy with an excellent, sex positive therapist will continue to fail. Whatever fail means. My husband and I went to couples counseling so I could find a way to leave the marriage. And damned if the counseling "failed" and I figured out that I really wanted to stay and that we could each change to stay together.
I say the "counseling failed" thing is just silly. Keep looking for a therapist you can both engage with and have the courage to explain the whole situation, and the whole history. Those couples counselors have heard it all. Believe me, they have heard it all over and over and over. Persist, tell the therapist that you are shopping around and would like to meet to lay out your situation, and put energy into finding someone who can help. (Some of them won't even charge for that first meeting b/c they are checking you out as potential clients just like you are checking them out as potential helpers).
Unless you just want someone to give you permission to file for divorce or find an outside sexual partner. If so, you have my permission.
I say the "counseling failed" thing is just silly. Keep looking for a therapist you can both engage with and have the courage to explain the whole situation, and the whole history. Those couples counselors have heard it all. Believe me, they have heard it all over and over and over. Persist, tell the therapist that you are shopping around and would like to meet to lay out your situation, and put energy into finding someone who can help. (Some of them won't even charge for that first meeting b/c they are checking you out as potential clients just like you are checking them out as potential helpers).
Unless you just want someone to give you permission to file for divorce or find an outside sexual partner. If so, you have my permission.
54
When your partner is entirely unsympathetic to your needs, you are no longer in a loving & trusting relationship. You're in a mutually unhealthy & destructive relationship. Unwilling to even discuss it, lest she use tears to control the situation? After 18 years in a resentful sexless marriage, it's ultimatum time. She's not too ill to go to work, therefore she hasn't been too ill to be everything-but girl for her loving, faithful husband. Her unwillingness to get help, discuss his pain, or take any path toward mutual healing are indicators that drastic measures are required. If he tries to divorce her & she uses her illness to strap him financially, he's better off seeing other women on the side. It's not cheating when the other person has zero interest in sex, let alone zero interest in caring about your needs for 18 long years of marriage. She's not the victim, he is.
56
I feel pretty confident that having open marriage would be off the table—[...] she becomes very defensive and will typically cry and say that she fears that I'll leave her.
Key point: People are often afraid that their partner will leave them if they open up their marriage, but in fact: there is NO guarantee a partner won't leave someone in ANY relationship -- monogamous or not. If she cares at all about her partner, then they must work through these fears and not let them be a stopping block. She is denying him a fundamental, and fun, part of life. And while he said he's staying "no matter what", this is a pretty big what to have matter.
OTOH, is it possible that "this guy" (what? not acronym?) isn't standing up for himself. If she just cries and throws emotional tantrums whenever something uncomfortable comes up, then that becomes a dysfunctional relationship, because he stops bringing up things that are uncomfortable and changes his behaviour because he fears her reactions. Partners have to be able to work through uncomfortable and difficult conversations without emotionally manipulating the other one. If she can't do that, then she need professional help. And they need a counselor or professional mediator.
I don't want to suggest divorce (although I don't consider divorce a bad thing, sometimes relationships need to end, or just end naturally... that's pretty normal) ...in part because it is far, far too common for men to leave women if the women become sick or ill, whereas women tend to stay with men who become sick or ill. So, bravo for being a solid partner! But he has made some considerable -- and unplanned -- compromises for the relationship. Perhaps she needs to make some too.
Key point: People are often afraid that their partner will leave them if they open up their marriage, but in fact: there is NO guarantee a partner won't leave someone in ANY relationship -- monogamous or not. If she cares at all about her partner, then they must work through these fears and not let them be a stopping block. She is denying him a fundamental, and fun, part of life. And while he said he's staying "no matter what", this is a pretty big what to have matter.
OTOH, is it possible that "this guy" (what? not acronym?) isn't standing up for himself. If she just cries and throws emotional tantrums whenever something uncomfortable comes up, then that becomes a dysfunctional relationship, because he stops bringing up things that are uncomfortable and changes his behaviour because he fears her reactions. Partners have to be able to work through uncomfortable and difficult conversations without emotionally manipulating the other one. If she can't do that, then she need professional help. And they need a counselor or professional mediator.
I don't want to suggest divorce (although I don't consider divorce a bad thing, sometimes relationships need to end, or just end naturally... that's pretty normal) ...in part because it is far, far too common for men to leave women if the women become sick or ill, whereas women tend to stay with men who become sick or ill. So, bravo for being a solid partner! But he has made some considerable -- and unplanned -- compromises for the relationship. Perhaps she needs to make some too.
57
@ all the people crying "for better or for worse!", why does that only apply to wife's refusal to have sex, and not to the husband's needing sexual release? Is it because if he cheats, he's broken his vows first and so she no longer has to respect hers?
The line in full usually goes, "Will you love him, comfort him, honor and keep him, in sickness and in health; and, forsaking all others, be faithful to him as long as you both shall live?" Why does everyone assume that these vows only mean that the well person has to love and comfort the sick person? Why is there not also an obligation from the same vow for the sick person to love and comfort the well person? It can, and I believe should, be read both ways.
The man is clearly distressed at being celibate for this long. If she will not comfort him, hasn't she then broken her vows first? She's clearly physically able to give him hand or blow jobs and have sex play even if penetration isn't possible. And despite being ill/depressed, she's probably still emotionally able to put on her game face and pretend to enjoy it.
Contract law says you only have to hold up your end of the deal if the other person is holding up theirs.
The line in full usually goes, "Will you love him, comfort him, honor and keep him, in sickness and in health; and, forsaking all others, be faithful to him as long as you both shall live?" Why does everyone assume that these vows only mean that the well person has to love and comfort the sick person? Why is there not also an obligation from the same vow for the sick person to love and comfort the well person? It can, and I believe should, be read both ways.
The man is clearly distressed at being celibate for this long. If she will not comfort him, hasn't she then broken her vows first? She's clearly physically able to give him hand or blow jobs and have sex play even if penetration isn't possible. And despite being ill/depressed, she's probably still emotionally able to put on her game face and pretend to enjoy it.
Contract law says you only have to hold up your end of the deal if the other person is holding up theirs.
58
I am going to play the professional sexworker card here. He should make discreet arrangements to see a prostitute/escort on a semi-regular basis. No danger of emotions getting in the way, merely meeting one's sexual needs. I would also argue that getting a blowjob or handjob from a prostitute doesnt meet the requirements for cheating. Its more like specialized counseling. and that is what I would tell my wife I was doing as there is no need for her to beat herself up any more than she already does for not having sex with him.
Sexual satisfaction with no change in emotional ties. their relationship will improve. the economy is strenghtened thru the exchange of services and money. Win-win-win
Sexual satisfaction with no change in emotional ties. their relationship will improve. the economy is strenghtened thru the exchange of services and money. Win-win-win
59
An observation:
While all states now have "no fault" divorce, traditionally a divorcing spouse needed to show some ground for why the marriage should be terminated. The causes one could allege included cruelty, abandonment, and lengthy imprisonment. The monogamusts will be happy to know that adultery was also considered grounds for divorce. They may be less excited to learn that lack of sex was also grounds for divorce. And no, there were no exceptions for age or illness (unless the illness and consequent lack of sex was disclosed prior to the marriage).
In other words, the traditional viewpoint was that cheating on your spouse broke the marriage. But the traditional viewpoint was also that not fucking your spouse similarly broke the marriage. In other words, withholding sex was considered just as damaging to a marriage as cheating, even if the withholder did so through no fault of his/her own.
So lets stop pretending that people should be forced to endure sexless marriages. Even back when divorce was difficult, we recognized that people enter into marriage with the expectation of sex, and that lack of sex is a valid reason to end the marriage.
While all states now have "no fault" divorce, traditionally a divorcing spouse needed to show some ground for why the marriage should be terminated. The causes one could allege included cruelty, abandonment, and lengthy imprisonment. The monogamusts will be happy to know that adultery was also considered grounds for divorce. They may be less excited to learn that lack of sex was also grounds for divorce. And no, there were no exceptions for age or illness (unless the illness and consequent lack of sex was disclosed prior to the marriage).
In other words, the traditional viewpoint was that cheating on your spouse broke the marriage. But the traditional viewpoint was also that not fucking your spouse similarly broke the marriage. In other words, withholding sex was considered just as damaging to a marriage as cheating, even if the withholder did so through no fault of his/her own.
So lets stop pretending that people should be forced to endure sexless marriages. Even back when divorce was difficult, we recognized that people enter into marriage with the expectation of sex, and that lack of sex is a valid reason to end the marriage.
60
@57, addendum to my third paragraph: "And despite being ill/depressed, she's probably still emotionally able to put on her game face and pretend to enjoy it," and if she's not, then she has an obligation to not give up on getting to that point, preferably with a licensed therapist specializing in these kinds of issues.
61
Am I the only one disgusted by the emotional blackmail here by the wife? Ill or no, bursting into tears to shut down any conversation about sex IS doing emotional violence to a partner. Monogamy is a promise to be each other's only sexual PARTNERS; it doesn't oblige someone to give up his or her sex life should one partner become unable or unwilling to have sex.
It seems to me that "staying sane" by discretely getting sex elsewhere is the best solution given that he loves her and wants to continue to care for her and live with her. Because--and I haven't seen the "Get more counseling people" acknowledge this--would you want the only sex you can expect for the rest of your days to be obligatory sex? I think that would be a worse sentence than forced celibacy.
But, again, sick or no, this woman is horribly selfish and cruel and manipulative.
I ended up talking to a coworker a few weeks ago about a Savage Letter of the Day and this coworker said definitively that once one person in a marriage says "Yeah, the sex part is overwith" the other spouse must either accept it or divorce. Period. No exceptions. She was so adamant that she was stunning in her selfishness and cruelty, but what amazed me is that the righteousness of her position ("adultery is always wrong") protected her from that insight into her own shortcomings. She was as convinced of her righteousness as I was disgusted by her selfishness.
It seems to me that "staying sane" by discretely getting sex elsewhere is the best solution given that he loves her and wants to continue to care for her and live with her. Because--and I haven't seen the "Get more counseling people" acknowledge this--would you want the only sex you can expect for the rest of your days to be obligatory sex? I think that would be a worse sentence than forced celibacy.
But, again, sick or no, this woman is horribly selfish and cruel and manipulative.
I ended up talking to a coworker a few weeks ago about a Savage Letter of the Day and this coworker said definitively that once one person in a marriage says "Yeah, the sex part is overwith" the other spouse must either accept it or divorce. Period. No exceptions. She was so adamant that she was stunning in her selfishness and cruelty, but what amazed me is that the righteousness of her position ("adultery is always wrong") protected her from that insight into her own shortcomings. She was as convinced of her righteousness as I was disgusted by her selfishness.
62
There is something wrong with her psychologically if she is not having sex for most of their 18 year marriage, has no interest in it (not even for romance or flirting!), and refuses to discuss this with him without crying and making him feel horrible. That needs to be addressed first, so I would give her 6-months to get into private counseling so that they have a starting point from which they can then tackle the sex issues in the marriage.
This is a hard one, because I would not leave my partner of 20 years if he suddenly could no longer have sex, but I might have if this happened earlier in our relationship, or if it was something he refused to even discuss rationally. Just my 2 cents....good luck.
This is a hard one, because I would not leave my partner of 20 years if he suddenly could no longer have sex, but I might have if this happened earlier in our relationship, or if it was something he refused to even discuss rationally. Just my 2 cents....good luck.
63
@27: Although I don't agree with the entirety of your argument, I thought you stated it well.
I think I am a monogamist because I cannot abide the thought of my man having sex with another woman. Not the actual intercourse, but all of the fun and intimacy leading up to the intercourse. That's the good stuff - that's our stuff - and the idea of him doing it with anyone but me is a huge betrayal.
With that definition in mind, I can understand why she has a strong negative reaction to an "open marriage." Frankly, I am embarrassed that I have a similar reaction. But where, as here, they don't have the good stuff - the fun and intimacy leading up to intercourse and orgasm - there seems to be less of a betrayal.
I can't imagine a sexless marriage. It sounds like a really lonely place. But if I wasn't having sex with my husband - if we weren't having all of the good stuff up to and including sex - then I also have a hard time imagining his extramarital liaisons as betrayals.
I think I am a monogamist because I cannot abide the thought of my man having sex with another woman. Not the actual intercourse, but all of the fun and intimacy leading up to the intercourse. That's the good stuff - that's our stuff - and the idea of him doing it with anyone but me is a huge betrayal.
With that definition in mind, I can understand why she has a strong negative reaction to an "open marriage." Frankly, I am embarrassed that I have a similar reaction. But where, as here, they don't have the good stuff - the fun and intimacy leading up to intercourse and orgasm - there seems to be less of a betrayal.
I can't imagine a sexless marriage. It sounds like a really lonely place. But if I wasn't having sex with my husband - if we weren't having all of the good stuff up to and including sex - then I also have a hard time imagining his extramarital liaisons as betrayals.
64
Just to add that I'm in constant lifelong pain, and any kind of sex act usually results in injury or a worsening of my pain. But I do it anyway, and often - because I know it's important to my husband, and it's important to me. No way am I going to let my health deprive me of intimacy and joy. And I am really scared of the thing that seems to happen to women when they don't have sex for a while - you start to not want sex, and it feels physically and mentally horrible when you start up again. This has happened to me a few times when I've been working away. I wonder how much the physiological process of women's sex drive shutting down in dry periods is acknowledged? Maybe if we recognised that there is often something physical as well as mental going on, it would help.
Anway... if you can work while in pain, you can do other things too. It's a matter of priority - you might have fewer spoons than everyone else, but you put them in the places that are most important to you.
Why isn't the wife prioritising sex? Either the husband hasn't made it clear how important it is to him, or we're back to different sex drives territory. I don't think the issue is about whether or not nonmonogamy is the answer to the husband's situation. It's about why they can't have a proper balanced negotiation. She has to stop blackmailing him, and he has to stop treating her with kid gloves - if one person is sick you have to work really hard to stop it turning the relationship into an unequal one.
Anway... if you can work while in pain, you can do other things too. It's a matter of priority - you might have fewer spoons than everyone else, but you put them in the places that are most important to you.
Why isn't the wife prioritising sex? Either the husband hasn't made it clear how important it is to him, or we're back to different sex drives territory. I don't think the issue is about whether or not nonmonogamy is the answer to the husband's situation. It's about why they can't have a proper balanced negotiation. She has to stop blackmailing him, and he has to stop treating her with kid gloves - if one person is sick you have to work really hard to stop it turning the relationship into an unequal one.
65
Personally, as a woman who has been sick for many years with an illness involving a lot of pain and who tries to maintain a "normal" life of going to work, etc. I just want to say that trying to do that can exact an enormous physical and emotional toll on a person and can make sex and even intimacy feel undesirable simply because they require energy that isn't available. I have to say, I have been in his wife's shoes. She may be giving all of the energy she has to trying to maintain a normal life and really and truly not have anything left over at the end of the day. So, one other possible solution would be for them to help her cut back on all the other things that she is devoting her energy to so that she has something left over for their relationship and they may be able to rekindle some intimacy and sexual connection.
66
"You can't have sex with me, but you can't have sex with anyone else either. If you try to talk to me about it, I will cry until you stop."
That is indeed emotional blackmail. If there are no kids, leave. If there are kids, see sex workers. Your wife is not being fair to you. I'm so sorry.
That is indeed emotional blackmail. If there are no kids, leave. If there are kids, see sex workers. Your wife is not being fair to you. I'm so sorry.
67
Re: sex is a "want" not a "need" (several commenters)
Sex may not be not an individual "need" but it is most definitely a collective "need". The race "needs" people to have sex in order for the race to continue.
Because of this, people are wired for sex in such a way that the choice is not always left completely up to the individual, at least not to the conscious mind of the individual.
Subconscious/collective forces come into play in matters of sex. You can pretend that it is otherwise, but you do so at your own risk.
Re: sex is a "want" not a "need" (several commenters)
Sex may not be not an individual "need" but it is most definitely a collective "need". The race "needs" people to have sex in order for the race to continue.
Because of this, people are wired for sex in such a way that the choice is not always left completely up to the individual, at least not to the conscious mind of the individual.
Subconscious/collective forces come into play in matters of sex. You can pretend that it is otherwise, but you do so at your own risk.
69
I should say ... *individuals* can pretend that it is otherwise, but they do so at their own risk.
I should say ... *individuals* can pretend that it is otherwise, but they do so at their own risk.
70
I'm in a monogamist relationship, so I guess that puts me in the monogamist camp. I want to qualify that by saying that I think monogamy isn't some sort of myth, although it's clearly not possible for everyone.
That said, divorce her for god's sake. I don't know where all these people are getting the idea that monogamists always think people in sexless marriages should stick it out. I've already told my partner that if he stops putting out, I consider it grounds for divorce, and I mean it. Part of a relationship is sex, plain and simple. She needs to either give him permission, or he needs to divorce her and find someone more appreciative and caring about his needs. None of this running around behind her back shit. Not only is that a bit cowardly (he can't stand her tears), but she's bound to find out sooner or later, and when she does there will be hell to pay. He thinks the situation is bad now, wait till she finds out, has a meltdown and THEN they end up divorcing. This marriage doesn't seem like a very healthy thing for anyone involved. It's time to end it.
That said, divorce her for god's sake. I don't know where all these people are getting the idea that monogamists always think people in sexless marriages should stick it out. I've already told my partner that if he stops putting out, I consider it grounds for divorce, and I mean it. Part of a relationship is sex, plain and simple. She needs to either give him permission, or he needs to divorce her and find someone more appreciative and caring about his needs. None of this running around behind her back shit. Not only is that a bit cowardly (he can't stand her tears), but she's bound to find out sooner or later, and when she does there will be hell to pay. He thinks the situation is bad now, wait till she finds out, has a meltdown and THEN they end up divorcing. This marriage doesn't seem like a very healthy thing for anyone involved. It's time to end it.
71
I wish I could give my advice to him retroactively. "Marry an adult" I'd say, "Someone able to take responsibility for her part in keeping the marriage happy, someone able to understand that nobody gets exactly what they want, that marriage involves being the protector of your partner's happiness."
She's able to work, able to participate in many things (the things SHE wants to do, I'm sure) but isn't able to let you rub your dick between her well lubed thighs? Wear something sexy and talk dirty while you jerk off? Give you a hand job, for heaven's sake? Right.
You are married to, at best, a child, and more likely a selfish bitch. dump her and find an adult while you still have time.
She's able to work, able to participate in many things (the things SHE wants to do, I'm sure) but isn't able to let you rub your dick between her well lubed thighs? Wear something sexy and talk dirty while you jerk off? Give you a hand job, for heaven's sake? Right.
You are married to, at best, a child, and more likely a selfish bitch. dump her and find an adult while you still have time.
74
What a sad situation. To add a female perspective.. I knew a woman who was in a somewhat similar situation some years ago. Her husband would not sleep with her, and was very defensive and angry about it. The marriage ended in divorce, and a few years later ... she found out (from him) that he had undiagnosed health issues (along with depression) that affected his sexual functioning. While she was in the marriage she experienced a lot of pain and self esteem issues (same as this guy.. constant rejection).
One thought about this man's wife- I wonder what sort of health condition she has? He mentions that she functions normally as to work but is in pain a lot. Some sort of chronic condition it seems? Here's the thought- nobody has mentioned depression, that I noticed.. there's clear and strong associations with chronic illness, pain and depression. Have they ever thought about getting help with that aspect of it? (ie antidepressants- they can also help with chronic pain conditions). Another thought- how much does the man pitch in at home? If she's able to 'function normally " ie go to work but has chronic illness and pain... it is very likely she has spent her day's energy quota by the time she gets home. If she's the primary house=keeper.. that would not help much. The more he pitches in.. the more energy she might have for other things.
Sorry, no magic bullets but ... this situation as described by Dan sounded a bit one-dimensional to me. There's always more to every situation... more things to look at than the obvious. If someone is chronically ill and in pain... sex may or may not ever be on the table, but trying OTHER things rather than dealing with sexual situation directly.. well, it could help.
One thought about this man's wife- I wonder what sort of health condition she has? He mentions that she functions normally as to work but is in pain a lot. Some sort of chronic condition it seems? Here's the thought- nobody has mentioned depression, that I noticed.. there's clear and strong associations with chronic illness, pain and depression. Have they ever thought about getting help with that aspect of it? (ie antidepressants- they can also help with chronic pain conditions). Another thought- how much does the man pitch in at home? If she's able to 'function normally " ie go to work but has chronic illness and pain... it is very likely she has spent her day's energy quota by the time she gets home. If she's the primary house=keeper.. that would not help much. The more he pitches in.. the more energy she might have for other things.
Sorry, no magic bullets but ... this situation as described by Dan sounded a bit one-dimensional to me. There's always more to every situation... more things to look at than the obvious. If someone is chronically ill and in pain... sex may or may not ever be on the table, but trying OTHER things rather than dealing with sexual situation directly.. well, it could help.
75
I have so many questions on this one. If she is that ill I would assume she sees a doctor on a pretty regular basis? Is she healing and it's a slow process or is this something more permanent? Not knowing the answers to some pertinent information, I say go with her to her next doctor appointment and talk to the doctor with her there about your situation. Has she been on anti-depressants? Is she in some kind of pain management? Pain and depression very often go hand in hand and managing both may help save your marriage. Put all of the cards on the table and don't hold anything back. She needs to know how invested you are in her and that not being able to sit down and talk about this is killing you. Let her know that for the sake of your own sanity that there needs to be a positive change in your sex life for your marriage to have any chance of survival. Good luck to you both.
Also, great advice from Kim and EricaP.
Also, great advice from Kim and EricaP.
76
I don't know that I would go so far as to call her tears emotional blackmail. That may be her honest reaction to the thought of her husband fucking someone else. The question is whether she refuses to talk about it because she's crying, or whether her husband immediately backs off once he sees the tears.
Difficult conversations are difficult, and they often invoke strong emotions. But adults need to power through them to get resolution. From the letter, it's not clear who isn't being the adult here.
Difficult conversations are difficult, and they often invoke strong emotions. But adults need to power through them to get resolution. From the letter, it's not clear who isn't being the adult here.
77
I think 65 has a good point that she may not be able to include sex in the current setup and it seems worthwhile to try to change the circumstances so that sex becomes possible again.
On the other hand, I doubt this will work in practice. That is an answer that should have come up after two years or at most ten. If something like that was going to work, it was going to work long ago.
She cries and accuses him of wanting to leave her because she knows that is the logical end of this situation. He should leave her, she knows it, and she tries to preempt it by immediately going there when they discuss the problem. She goes to the ultimate step as a way of avoiding any of the intermediate steps.
I don't agree with Dan that cheating is the answer in this situation though. She is not going to tolerate it, and even in a no fault state he is likely to get screwed in the division of property one way or another. It will also poison their relationship. I know that sounds odd to think of when I am advocating divorce, but is possible that they can go on being friends after divorce if there is no betrayal during the marriage. People do manage that. He probably would like to maintain some relationship with someone who he has been close to for half his life. That won't be possible once she catches him cheating on her.
Tl;dr: Do divorce her, don't cheat on her
On the other hand, I doubt this will work in practice. That is an answer that should have come up after two years or at most ten. If something like that was going to work, it was going to work long ago.
She cries and accuses him of wanting to leave her because she knows that is the logical end of this situation. He should leave her, she knows it, and she tries to preempt it by immediately going there when they discuss the problem. She goes to the ultimate step as a way of avoiding any of the intermediate steps.
I don't agree with Dan that cheating is the answer in this situation though. She is not going to tolerate it, and even in a no fault state he is likely to get screwed in the division of property one way or another. It will also poison their relationship. I know that sounds odd to think of when I am advocating divorce, but is possible that they can go on being friends after divorce if there is no betrayal during the marriage. People do manage that. He probably would like to maintain some relationship with someone who he has been close to for half his life. That won't be possible once she catches him cheating on her.
Tl;dr: Do divorce her, don't cheat on her
79
To all the "monogamists" weighing in, I think Dan is actually taking a page out of Andrew Sullivan's book with the term. Andrew differentiates between Christians (normal folk) and Christianists (fundamentalists who want to impose their narrow view of Christianity on everyone else, whether we want it or not).
Likewise, I think he's trying to differentiate the monogamous from the monogamists. The monogamous are those who are in that sort of relationship because it works for them and they see it as the best option. Monogamists are those who think that this option is the only workable one and that any degree of openess in the marriage is immoral, will lead to marital chaos, is the sign of a marriage in decline etc. That is to say, a monogamist is a monogamous person who sees strict monogamy as the only acceptable relationship type. @27 is a monogamist, people saying "well I'm monogamous but I can see where this situation may be different" are not.
Likewise, I think he's trying to differentiate the monogamous from the monogamists. The monogamous are those who are in that sort of relationship because it works for them and they see it as the best option. Monogamists are those who think that this option is the only workable one and that any degree of openess in the marriage is immoral, will lead to marital chaos, is the sign of a marriage in decline etc. That is to say, a monogamist is a monogamous person who sees strict monogamy as the only acceptable relationship type. @27 is a monogamist, people saying "well I'm monogamous but I can see where this situation may be different" are not.
80
I can't imagine giving advice on so little information. Dan, I don't know how you do this. Most of the comments here ask really pertinent questions, the answers to which I think are pretty necessary to make an accurate assessment.
Since lack of information have never stopped me in the past, I shall give it a go. The options:
1. Stay with marriage. Don't cheat. Be miserable.
2. Stay with marriage. Cheat. Manage potential cheater anxiety/STD's. Possibly be less miserable.
3. Talk about it, tears be damned, with or without a therapist. Maybe better, maybe end of marriage.
4. Divorce, no discussion.
Knowing full well we were not given the full story, I say start with #3. You have to be able to have the tough conversations, I think, if you want some sort of fulfilling relationship. I would say, insist she discuss it, again. If she declines, or if the discussion does not alter the situation, then consider options 1, 2 and 4.
This situation sucks.
Since lack of information have never stopped me in the past, I shall give it a go. The options:
1. Stay with marriage. Don't cheat. Be miserable.
2. Stay with marriage. Cheat. Manage potential cheater anxiety/STD's. Possibly be less miserable.
3. Talk about it, tears be damned, with or without a therapist. Maybe better, maybe end of marriage.
4. Divorce, no discussion.
Knowing full well we were not given the full story, I say start with #3. You have to be able to have the tough conversations, I think, if you want some sort of fulfilling relationship. I would say, insist she discuss it, again. If she declines, or if the discussion does not alter the situation, then consider options 1, 2 and 4.
This situation sucks.
81
As a general monogamist (with exceptions for these situations consensually and with communication, apparently this makes me monogamous and not "monogamist"), I'd probably push towards divorce before cheating.
"not to the point where she’s not able to work or do many normal activities" makes it sound like the issue's more psychological (or even a psychosomatic illness) than physical.
"not to the point where she’s not able to work or do many normal activities" makes it sound like the issue's more psychological (or even a psychosomatic illness) than physical.
82
She's unwilling to compromise and emotionally blackmailing him to shut him up, even if it is out of a genuine sense of insecurity, every time he raises the issue to try to address it.
He needs to lay it all out for her, like he did in this letter, and give her a little time to think it over. Then if she still won't discuss it, or won't compromise in some way, he needs to leave. A partner's illness is not a shackle. It's generous of him to stay with her out of concern, but it's not fair to anyone. It sounds like she can take care of herself, so it's not like he'd be leaving her to die.
He needs to lay it all out for her, like he did in this letter, and give her a little time to think it over. Then if she still won't discuss it, or won't compromise in some way, he needs to leave. A partner's illness is not a shackle. It's generous of him to stay with her out of concern, but it's not fair to anyone. It sounds like she can take care of herself, so it's not like he'd be leaving her to die.
83
I just read a few more comments and people have great questions!!! I love Dan's column but.. there's more to this story than we were given. He didn't ask anything much, nor did he consider the whole picture. A person who is ill is unlikely to have a strong libido. Chronic pain, illness and depression go together.
And one more thought.. often when there is an ill spouse and the other is a caregiver, the caregiver gets burned out/ exhausted and has little libido also. Not hearing that here.. hm.
Wondering how much he helps her with daily tasks. One commenter was brilliant- said she'd dealt with chronic illness and had little energy at the end of her workday. Rather than discussing sex sex sex.. maybe they could discuss instead how to decrease her responsibilities to give her body a break. That could boost health, mood, energy (and tada, libido.. ) more than anything I can think of.
I love Dan's column but I think he kind of blew it here, perhaps cos he was a bit fixated on the whole monogamy issue. I think this couple has a bigger problem, personally...
And one more thought.. often when there is an ill spouse and the other is a caregiver, the caregiver gets burned out/ exhausted and has little libido also. Not hearing that here.. hm.
Wondering how much he helps her with daily tasks. One commenter was brilliant- said she'd dealt with chronic illness and had little energy at the end of her workday. Rather than discussing sex sex sex.. maybe they could discuss instead how to decrease her responsibilities to give her body a break. That could boost health, mood, energy (and tada, libido.. ) more than anything I can think of.
I love Dan's column but I think he kind of blew it here, perhaps cos he was a bit fixated on the whole monogamy issue. I think this couple has a bigger problem, personally...
85
@61 "Am I the only one disgusted by the emotional blackmail here by the wife? Ill or no, bursting into tears to shut down any conversation about sex IS doing emotional violence to a partner."
I am too. Plus, I've had periods of chronic pain/depression before and sex usually *alleviates* pain and unhappiness, and helps renew the bond of your relationship-all good things. Plus this guy sounds like someone who would be GGG and would really care about doing it right.
I can't really think of an illness where you can work and do normal actvities, but can't have sex. I mean, it's not for us to judge, I guess, whether her claim is valid, but it sounds like perhaps this is just an excuse-which means it's extra shitty and manipulative. He's buying that explanation, but maybe he shouldn't.
I am too. Plus, I've had periods of chronic pain/depression before and sex usually *alleviates* pain and unhappiness, and helps renew the bond of your relationship-all good things. Plus this guy sounds like someone who would be GGG and would really care about doing it right.
I can't really think of an illness where you can work and do normal actvities, but can't have sex. I mean, it's not for us to judge, I guess, whether her claim is valid, but it sounds like perhaps this is just an excuse-which means it's extra shitty and manipulative. He's buying that explanation, but maybe he shouldn't.
86
@83 and others. This is one of many "my wife won't fuck me" letters. This one--unlike the others--was explicitly presented as a hypothetically "pure" case of the cheat/divorce/chop-your-cock-off dilema.
Therefore, clarifying question--while a touching meditation on this anonymous and unknowable individual--are rather beside the point.
Therefore, clarifying question--while a touching meditation on this anonymous and unknowable individual--are rather beside the point.
87
@19 & @65 have it - this is a deep physical and psychological issue for his wife. She needs therapy and to make more of an effort at her personal life, the rest be damned, if her marriage is at all important to her. This means that the husband might have to pick up some slack with regards to the household/kids/money. But if their marriage is a priority, they will do it. And it might all fall apart anyway.
I am in a monogamous marriage, for what it's worth, and I would rather eat glass than let my relationship fall apart. If I or my spouse weren't satisfied with any aspect of our relationship, I would hope that we would commit to fixing it, whatever it took, even if it meant relinquishing monogamy. Or maybe just getting separate bathrooms (no marriage is perfect).
I am in a monogamous marriage, for what it's worth, and I would rather eat glass than let my relationship fall apart. If I or my spouse weren't satisfied with any aspect of our relationship, I would hope that we would commit to fixing it, whatever it took, even if it meant relinquishing monogamy. Or maybe just getting separate bathrooms (no marriage is perfect).
89
Jeez. So you married her in sickness and in health as long as sickness doesn't mean she's unable to have sex. Hope you remembered to add this caveat to your vows.
90
This is coming from a poly woman:
"she becomes very defensive and will typically cry and say that she fears that I'll leave her."
Then, instead of being patient and supportive when she starts to cry and freak out about you leaving her, tell her the truth: that without a resolution, you just might.
In my opinion, honesty is the best way to go about this sort of thing, as long as it's possible. It sounds like he's tried everything but a very hard truth, and a very hard conversation, because when he has, she's stopped that conversation with tears and fears. It's entirely possible that working past those fears will not only open up new options in their relationship, but might remove some of the negative stigma she has been feeling about sex, a stigma that has probably grown the more it's talked about and made her less interested in having it, even on her pain-free days.
"she becomes very defensive and will typically cry and say that she fears that I'll leave her."
Then, instead of being patient and supportive when she starts to cry and freak out about you leaving her, tell her the truth: that without a resolution, you just might.
In my opinion, honesty is the best way to go about this sort of thing, as long as it's possible. It sounds like he's tried everything but a very hard truth, and a very hard conversation, because when he has, she's stopped that conversation with tears and fears. It's entirely possible that working past those fears will not only open up new options in their relationship, but might remove some of the negative stigma she has been feeling about sex, a stigma that has probably grown the more it's talked about and made her less interested in having it, even on her pain-free days.
91
@76, I agree that difficult conversations can bring up strong emotions and that maturity dictates you muscle through it and discuss what needs to be discussed.
However, from his email it appears he has brought up the subject multiple times. Even if he backed off a little too early each time, the fact he didn't entirely drop the matter should indicate to her it's something that requires discussion. Her failure to address it is indeed a failure. It sounds like she's content to suppress the topic.
However, from his email it appears he has brought up the subject multiple times. Even if he backed off a little too early each time, the fact he didn't entirely drop the matter should indicate to her it's something that requires discussion. Her failure to address it is indeed a failure. It sounds like she's content to suppress the topic.
92
Please please PLEASE follow up with this guy and make sure he reads this post and this comments thread. And then, again, after he decides what to do so that we know how this plays out. I'm really rooting for her to come to her senses.
93
As someone who has a chronic condition all I can say is she needs to cut the bs, stop feeling sorry for herself and maybe, just maybe cut her husband some slack & stop the emotional blackmail. If you have a chronic condition & you know what it is then it's your responsibility to do the work & not make other people carry the burden. If she can't do that he should find someone else & either 'cheat' or divorce her. There are many questionable "illnesses" out there that people use as excuses for not getting on with things. Of course, we've just got his side of the story but if it's even half true the guy deserves a medal.
94
What I don't understand about Dan's position in these scenarios is what reason does the guy have to stay?
If a man in this situation goes outside his marriage and finds a young, healthy woman who likes sex, and likes having it with him, he'd be a fucking fool to stay in the marriage, no matter how "committed" he is or how guilty he feels for ditching a chronically ill spouse.
So why even suggest cheating? Cheating will only result in divorce under these circumstances. The ONLY benefit to cheating is that he'll have his new girlfriend/living situation already lined up before he's served with divorce papers.
If a man in this situation goes outside his marriage and finds a young, healthy woman who likes sex, and likes having it with him, he'd be a fucking fool to stay in the marriage, no matter how "committed" he is or how guilty he feels for ditching a chronically ill spouse.
So why even suggest cheating? Cheating will only result in divorce under these circumstances. The ONLY benefit to cheating is that he'll have his new girlfriend/living situation already lined up before he's served with divorce papers.
95
The key to this letter is this:
I’ve been very supportive and would accept any sort of sex (and I’ve asked).
So it is not merely vaginal intercourse that has been off the menu for "most" of 18 years, but ANY sort of sex.
If the LW's wife is healthy enough to work and to do most normal activities, then she is healthy enough to suck it up (literally and figuratively).
Her refusal to be a little selfless and generous and loving--in other words, to reciprocate what her husband has been doing for her for many years--is highly hypocritical. Add in her manipulative tears, and her jealous possessiveness, and we have a picture of a passive-aggressive monster.
Give her an ultimatum. When she fails to make an effort to meet you half-way (and she will), divorce her ass.
I’ve been very supportive and would accept any sort of sex (and I’ve asked).
So it is not merely vaginal intercourse that has been off the menu for "most" of 18 years, but ANY sort of sex.
If the LW's wife is healthy enough to work and to do most normal activities, then she is healthy enough to suck it up (literally and figuratively).
Her refusal to be a little selfless and generous and loving--in other words, to reciprocate what her husband has been doing for her for many years--is highly hypocritical. Add in her manipulative tears, and her jealous possessiveness, and we have a picture of a passive-aggressive monster.
Give her an ultimatum. When she fails to make an effort to meet you half-way (and she will), divorce her ass.
96
They're not monogamous. They're celibate. Not the same thing at all. And not a marriage, in many cultures and traditions.
Time to lay the cards on the table. "I understand that you have fears and issues with regards to me getting my sexual needs met. But I can't live my life this way. I want to stay married to you. If you are unable/unwilling to continue the sexual part of our marriage, then we need to work this out in order to stay married. Your need for no sex is being met. My need for sex is not. That situation is not equitable and cannot continue. What I would like is for us to agree on boundaries and parameters - i.e., I have sex only with partners you approve, I only perform certain acts and not others, I only have sex with a given person x number of times - whatever will work to ease your insecurity about this. I love you and want to stay with you, but you are torturing me."
Time to lay the cards on the table. "I understand that you have fears and issues with regards to me getting my sexual needs met. But I can't live my life this way. I want to stay married to you. If you are unable/unwilling to continue the sexual part of our marriage, then we need to work this out in order to stay married. Your need for no sex is being met. My need for sex is not. That situation is not equitable and cannot continue. What I would like is for us to agree on boundaries and parameters - i.e., I have sex only with partners you approve, I only perform certain acts and not others, I only have sex with a given person x number of times - whatever will work to ease your insecurity about this. I love you and want to stay with you, but you are torturing me."
97
Sex for some is a want, not a need- optional. Sex for others is actually a physical need that must be met or insanity ensues.
Dump this woman if you love her. She will never meet your needs and you are only delaying the inevitable end. I'm sorry for your awful situation, but many have been where you are, and have left their spouses to remain sane and try to find happiness.
Our culture is hopelessly sex-negative, as many comments above indicate. The sooner a person understands themselves enough to know if sex is a want or a need, all cards need to go on the table, and more suitable mates should be found.
Dump this woman if you love her. She will never meet your needs and you are only delaying the inevitable end. I'm sorry for your awful situation, but many have been where you are, and have left their spouses to remain sane and try to find happiness.
Our culture is hopelessly sex-negative, as many comments above indicate. The sooner a person understands themselves enough to know if sex is a want or a need, all cards need to go on the table, and more suitable mates should be found.
98
I can add that I am in a similar situation as this man, but it is my husband who became ill soon after we married 12 years ago. I used to feel angry and cheated as I love sex, have a strong drive, and we had a lovely time before the illness. Also, I really wanted children. I remain monogamous though I do have the blessing of my husband to do whatever I need to do. I choose not to. It would change what we have. Sex for the sake of sexual release is not what I want. We are intimate in touching and words and the love we share. Sometimes I will masturbate with him watching but do it mostly on my own. I have an active sexual fantasy life with him and sometimes it almost seems real. I write down fantasies for him and do dramatic readings of them for him, which he loves. I found exercise and creative outlets for my sexual energy. I think that if the illness does prevent sex and monogamy is what you want, a little imagination goes a long way.
100
I agree that the wife needs to get some counseling because honestly, if she's well enough to work, she's well enough to have SOME form of sex. My boyfriend and I both have physically strenuous jobs and recurring injuries and though I realize these are not the same as a long term chronic illness, my point is, because we **want** to, we are able to be sexual with each other at the end of a long day. We enjoy the intimacy and on days when we're not up to the full shebang, there are plenty of manual and oral ways to have fun together that even if everyone doesn't have an orgasm have given us intimacy and satisfaction that help keep our relationship strong. But the desire has to be there! He says he'll accept any type of sex, and if she won't put on lingerie and talk dirty to him or SOMETHING, then she (and they) needs some help with the psychological/self esteem/intimacy issues that are keeping that from happening.
102
To everyone who thinks that her condition can't be THAT awful if she can work and do many other "normal" activities, we have no idea where she works nor what "normal activities" are, so we have no idea if her work and normal activities are more or less strenuous than helping her husband achieve sexual satisfaction. Also, if her libido has completely dried up, "helping" her husband relieve sexual tension probably takes way more energy than it would if she were actually getting aroused. I know that the few times I've had sex when I wasn't really feeling it, it was much more painful, much more tiring, and an ordeal in general. If it feels like that every time for her, I can imagine why she wouldn't want to.
Also, for those of you who think he should divorce her before cheating... what if this woman has been battling breast cancer for the past ten years? My childhood best friend's mother battled but eventually lost to breast cancer, and it was 11 years past her diagnosis date. Do you really think it's okay for someone to divorce their wife for not performing sexually if they may or may not be dying from a slow, painful disease? We don't know that this is her situation, but it's entirely possible.
Also, to those who say that her tears are "emotional blackmail"- I'm sure she's not doing it intentionally. What probably happens is that he says something about needing more sex, she cries because she KNOWS she's not doing enough for him, but she also has no idea what she can do for him, and she doesn't want him to look outside their marriage for fear that he might get a girlfriend and realize that his life would be a million times easier if he just divorced her. He probably gives up there and reassures her that he's not leaving, that he's not going to look elsewhere, and then gives up until the next time. She probably thinks that if she keeps saying no, he'll realize it's a lost cause at some point and give up asking and just live without sex.
What he needs to do is power through that conversation. He can't give up when she starts crying. He has to find out whether their marriage is more important to her or whether his sexual fidelity is more important. If he finds out that his sexual fidelity is more important, I think he has the go ahead to cheat discreetly if he doesn't want to leave. If it turns out that the marriage is more important and she concedes that she can't keep him from having sex his whole life, I think he should submit to any demands on what outside sex looks like. But he has to force the conversation, and he has to find out what her priorities really are.
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Also, for those of you who think he should divorce her before cheating... what if this woman has been battling breast cancer for the past ten years? My childhood best friend's mother battled but eventually lost to breast cancer, and it was 11 years past her diagnosis date. Do you really think it's okay for someone to divorce their wife for not performing sexually if they may or may not be dying from a slow, painful disease? We don't know that this is her situation, but it's entirely possible.
Also, to those who say that her tears are "emotional blackmail"- I'm sure she's not doing it intentionally. What probably happens is that he says something about needing more sex, she cries because she KNOWS she's not doing enough for him, but she also has no idea what she can do for him, and she doesn't want him to look outside their marriage for fear that he might get a girlfriend and realize that his life would be a million times easier if he just divorced her. He probably gives up there and reassures her that he's not leaving, that he's not going to look elsewhere, and then gives up until the next time. She probably thinks that if she keeps saying no, he'll realize it's a lost cause at some point and give up asking and just live without sex.
What he needs to do is power through that conversation. He can't give up when she starts crying. He has to find out whether their marriage is more important to her or whether his sexual fidelity is more important. If he finds out that his sexual fidelity is more important, I think he has the go ahead to cheat discreetly if he doesn't want to leave. If it turns out that the marriage is more important and she concedes that she can't keep him from having sex his whole life, I think he should submit to any demands on what outside sex looks like. But he has to force the conversation, and he has to find out what her priorities really are.
103
Dan's being a bit naive about what it means to go outside the relationship.
As has been mentioned above, he wants her to want him. She doesn't. One of the things people do when faced with constant rejection is withdraw and stop investing emotionally. For all intents and purposes, this guy may have already left; divorce might be only a formality.
Getting a piece on the side might only delay the inevitable. When someone who is fundamentally monogamous and has accepted rejection for a long time finally lies in the arms of someone who wants them, they will feel whole and human again in a way they had forgotten about. The likelihood of continuing to accept ongoing rejection in a marriage when acceptance is possible elsewhere is dismal.
I suspect that "going outside" works best when looking for variety. If you see women as either virgins, mothers or whores, then you may be happy to marry a "mother" and go elsewhere for a "whore." If you have a great relationship with decades of shared projects and giggles, there may be no revelation of being "made whole" when getting sexual needs met elsewhere because you are already fully accepted within your partnership. Sex in this case becomes just a detail, albeit an important one. Or maybe you like variety because you're kinky, like Erica P.
I don't think it's realistic to think that going outside for sex is going to preserve the letter-writer's marriage. I think it's going to give him the courage and confidence to leave. His wife knows it. He knows it too, otherwise he'd have done it already.
As has been mentioned above, he wants her to want him. She doesn't. One of the things people do when faced with constant rejection is withdraw and stop investing emotionally. For all intents and purposes, this guy may have already left; divorce might be only a formality.
Getting a piece on the side might only delay the inevitable. When someone who is fundamentally monogamous and has accepted rejection for a long time finally lies in the arms of someone who wants them, they will feel whole and human again in a way they had forgotten about. The likelihood of continuing to accept ongoing rejection in a marriage when acceptance is possible elsewhere is dismal.
I suspect that "going outside" works best when looking for variety. If you see women as either virgins, mothers or whores, then you may be happy to marry a "mother" and go elsewhere for a "whore." If you have a great relationship with decades of shared projects and giggles, there may be no revelation of being "made whole" when getting sexual needs met elsewhere because you are already fully accepted within your partnership. Sex in this case becomes just a detail, albeit an important one. Or maybe you like variety because you're kinky, like Erica P.
I don't think it's realistic to think that going outside for sex is going to preserve the letter-writer's marriage. I think it's going to give him the courage and confidence to leave. His wife knows it. He knows it too, otherwise he'd have done it already.
104
For all those pointing to our lack of knowledge about her illness and the likelihood of her suffering from depression--both of which are reasonable points--you're not acknowledging that they've had little to no sex for nearly 2 decades.
That is so unloving and unfair that her issues are irrelevant. Sympathetic, sure, but irrelelvant. Her lack of concern for her husband's well being over nearly 20 years is the primary issue.
If I truly loved a man, I cannot imagine putting his dick in a jar for 20 years no matter what illness I was suffering. Period.
That is so unloving and unfair that her issues are irrelevant. Sympathetic, sure, but irrelelvant. Her lack of concern for her husband's well being over nearly 20 years is the primary issue.
If I truly loved a man, I cannot imagine putting his dick in a jar for 20 years no matter what illness I was suffering. Period.
105
@102: "Also, for those of you who think he should divorce her before cheating... what if this woman has been battling breast cancer for the past ten years? "
They've been married for 18 years and celibate for most of that, right off the bat from what he stated.
They've been married for 18 years and celibate for most of that, right off the bat from what he stated.
106
She's already left you. Divorce will just put it in writing. Move on. Invite her to come back if you still love her, but you need to go live a full life while you're waiting for her.
If you love yourself, set yourself free. If you don't leave and save yourself, you never loved yourself in the first place.
If you love yourself, set yourself free. If you don't leave and save yourself, you never loved yourself in the first place.
107
Been thinking some more and, as some have pointed out, we really know so little here.
What IS her illness, how is it being treated, and what's the prognosis? Has she discussed her lack of sexual engagement with her doctor(s)?
After more than a dozen years, it's tough to lay the blame entirely on the wife for the current situation. Whatever he is saying or not saying, he is conveying to her that he is OK with the situation.
What has his role been with regard to her illness? Has he been her caretaker? If so, that may have changed their relationship so much that it is difficult for her to behave as anything other than his "patient." He may be encouraging this without trying to (I've seen this happen.).
They need help. And they need to make some decisions. It doesn't appear she has handled this well, but, really, we have heard nothing of her side, and there are gaping contextual holes in his story (probably not intentional, possibly the result of editing) that make it difficult to have a clear picture of what's going on.
Good luck to them! No matter the outcome, they will surely need it.
What IS her illness, how is it being treated, and what's the prognosis? Has she discussed her lack of sexual engagement with her doctor(s)?
After more than a dozen years, it's tough to lay the blame entirely on the wife for the current situation. Whatever he is saying or not saying, he is conveying to her that he is OK with the situation.
What has his role been with regard to her illness? Has he been her caretaker? If so, that may have changed their relationship so much that it is difficult for her to behave as anything other than his "patient." He may be encouraging this without trying to (I've seen this happen.).
They need help. And they need to make some decisions. It doesn't appear she has handled this well, but, really, we have heard nothing of her side, and there are gaping contextual holes in his story (probably not intentional, possibly the result of editing) that make it difficult to have a clear picture of what's going on.
Good luck to them! No matter the outcome, they will surely need it.
108
"Whatever he is saying or not saying, he is conveying to her that he is OK with the situation."
Given that every time he tries to discuss it she bursts into tears and refuses I would call your statement both inaccurate and unfair.
Given that every time he tries to discuss it she bursts into tears and refuses I would call your statement both inaccurate and unfair.
109
At first I was going to say this inside a [troll] tag, but the wife DOES have a legitimate fear that if he has sex with someone else, either as an affair or a sanctioned "release", the chances are very good that he'll be reminded of how good it feels to connect with someone that way, and that this is something he wants to have in his romantic life, and could even fall for the person providing it (regardless of whether that person falls for him). And that as long as there IS no ultimatum, and as long as she can keep this issue from becoming one, he will stay with her because (in addition to loving her) he's viscerally forgotten what it's like to experience that level of intimacy.
110
Dear Mr. Miserable but Faithful,
Find a discreet, not-crazy callgirl who won't mess up your already messy life. DO NOT get a girlfriend. My biggest concern with you seeking a secondary relationship is that you may find someone who is as emotionally needy as your wife because it's the type of relationship that you're used to.
Find a discreet, not-crazy callgirl who won't mess up your already messy life. DO NOT get a girlfriend. My biggest concern with you seeking a secondary relationship is that you may find someone who is as emotionally needy as your wife because it's the type of relationship that you're used to.
111
Hello LW,
I understand some of where you are coming from, having been married for more than 20 years. After our 2nd child, and before our 20th, we got in the habit of not having sex. Since I had no qualms about taking care of my own needs, and would never have sex with anyone other than my wife, that worked for years. OTOH, come vacation time my wife would turn back into the passionate lover I've come to worship. Believe me, I know that w/o those vacation breaks I would've been miserable, but I would've stayed. As long as all the other parts of our relationship worked, I couldn't justify leaving. But that is the kind of intensely personal decision that only you can make, because sex is only a minor part of what makes up the days of your life together. Because even without sex, your life together can be loving and sustaining. It's just that with an active, passionate sex-life it can be so much better...
I stated that it worked for years because I decided after our 20th anniversary that life was too short to wait for vacations. Initially I went over board, but we worked with a sex councilor to establish a better relationship, and better balances for our needs. It shouldn't be a revalation, but yeah you can have a family and have mind blowing sex after the age of 40. Believe me when I say that I am blessed, and, as much as it pains me to say it, would still feel that way if it was w/o sex because of the chance to live life with my wife.
In the end it keeps coming back to what you need in your life.
Peace.
I understand some of where you are coming from, having been married for more than 20 years. After our 2nd child, and before our 20th, we got in the habit of not having sex. Since I had no qualms about taking care of my own needs, and would never have sex with anyone other than my wife, that worked for years. OTOH, come vacation time my wife would turn back into the passionate lover I've come to worship. Believe me, I know that w/o those vacation breaks I would've been miserable, but I would've stayed. As long as all the other parts of our relationship worked, I couldn't justify leaving. But that is the kind of intensely personal decision that only you can make, because sex is only a minor part of what makes up the days of your life together. Because even without sex, your life together can be loving and sustaining. It's just that with an active, passionate sex-life it can be so much better...
I stated that it worked for years because I decided after our 20th anniversary that life was too short to wait for vacations. Initially I went over board, but we worked with a sex councilor to establish a better relationship, and better balances for our needs. It shouldn't be a revalation, but yeah you can have a family and have mind blowing sex after the age of 40. Believe me when I say that I am blessed, and, as much as it pains me to say it, would still feel that way if it was w/o sex because of the chance to live life with my wife.
In the end it keeps coming back to what you need in your life.
Peace.
112
One of my favorite bits of Dan advice ever was when he told some guy that once straight people start considering oral and handjobs sex, they'll start having a lot more sex. This guy sounds awfully focused on penis-in-vagina sex, if her high functioning illness is killing all sex for them because she can't do that. And if she's the one refusing to give him alternate forms of sexual intimacy, then as a monogamist myself, I would tell this guy to quit letting his wife get away with the sickness excuse already. Its not doing him or her any favors to paint the situation that way.
113
There is way too much in the unknown department here, including how long this marriage has really been sexless (yes, I know he says for most of it, but he could be exaggerating), how long the wife has been ill, the nature of her illness, and whether she can ever hope to recover.
But it seems to me that monogamy doesn't equal forced celibacy. Marriage vows aren't or shouldn't be a straightjacket and chastity belt in one. A partner who refuses any and all kinds of sexual intimacy and expects the other not to find that solace elsewhere and furthermore cries if the topic is even broached is being unfair and selfish and indeed, practicing emotional blackmail.
I'm all too aware that the wife's fears that the letter writer would fall in love with any woman he'd have a sexual relationship with are valid--the poor guy is starving for physical, spiritual, sexual, and emotional bonding with another person: a real psychic need and one which she is denying him out of hand.
The emotional and psychological effects of an ongoing and total sexual rejection are profound, and not addressed by telling the letter writer to jerk off more (I'm sure he's masturbating a lot already). The closeness and intimacy are worth so much more than just the sexual release. He (and she, too) needs to feel wanted, to feel desired, to feel as if they share something besides chores and dinner and bills and a history and (perhaps) parental joys and responsibilities. They both need to feel cherished and sexy by the other. They need to feel that sweet, blissful heaviness as sleep takes over after they are sexually satisfied. Not every day, of course, and they need to accommodate whatever limits the wife's illness and debility impose, but if she's just "over" sex, that isn't fair to him or to their marriage.
I'm not a monogamist, necessarily, though I get jealous of the primacy of a a bond, and prefer my sexual non-exclusivity to take the part of threesomes and moresomes or adventures at sex clubs, rather than as a truly open marriage. But this man didn't sign up for a life devoid of sexual intimacy when he married and he deserves to experience the joy of sex with another person. And yet I have serious issues with the idea of cheating or going outside the marriage non-consensually in order to (as Dan puts it) "stay sane." I speak from experience.
Here's the thing: I once had a marriage I described as perfect except for the sex. My problems weren't the same as the letter writers, but after years of trying to address them in similar ways (couples' counseling, emotional discussion, trying to do without fulfilling sex) I decided to "get my needs met" elsewhere.
Initially, I felt that that’s exactly what this affair did. I was happier, more relaxed. I no longer looked to my husband to satisfy me, and so his failure or refusal to try and meet my needs/desires no longer mattered. And for the first time in about 15 years, I felt desired and desirable, powerful aphrodisiacs. The sex was great—so great that I finally realized what I was missing and what was possible.
I never felt guilty; I had stated my intention (even though I know that my husband didn’t think I’d go through with it), and I felt like my conscience was clear. But what happened was that there was so much I couldn’t share with my husband. Obviously the facts of the affair could not be shared, nor could the details. If I heard a funny story from my bf, and wanted to repeat it, I had to make up someone to attribute it to. There were experiences I was having that I couldn’t talk about, and they weren’t all merely sexual. And even the sex: there were particular acts that I hadn’t done before but that we tried and I liked, and I didn’t know how to try and incorporate them into the infrequent sex I was still having with my husband—how to explain where I had learned that I liked them? After a while, the sex I had with my husband became even more unsatisfying, because now I had something wonderful to compare it against, and it came up so short. So I pulled further and further away from my husband emotionally, and after a while, it just became easier to not try to share any of my emotional or inner life with him—so much couldn’t be explained or accounted for without knowledge of what was becoming the most important relationship in my life besides my children. After a while, the distance between us just seemed un-bridge-able.
Well, I can only experience fantastic sex with someone who thinks I am the cat’s pajamas and tells me so and brings me little gifts and makes me laugh and is a nice person and a smart guy for so long before . . . I fell in love. As a married woman. To a married man, who was not my husband. And the love I felt for my husband, once so strong and robust, died a slow, oxygen-deprived death, like a limb cut off by a tourniquet. I, who had entered into this affair thinking that my marriage was perfect save for one small detail, and only wanting to have fun, came to want to leave my house and have my bf leave his wife and have us be together in a legitimate way. But the bf , though he loved me, didn’t want to leave his marriage, and was terrified that he’d lose the love of his children if he left their mother.
My bf was finally—somewhere in our 4th year together—overcome by his guilt and the fear of what would happen if he were caught. We broke it off.
And I thought: I can’t go on with my marriage without the escape/relief that the affair provided. I don’t want to have another affair: although I feel in my heart that I am a good person, I know that in society’s eyes I am a bad person; my actions, were they to be found out, would cause a lot of people—good, undeserving people—pain. I’ve put the friends of mine that know about this affair in an uncomfortable moral position: they love me so they feel compelled to take my side and support me in something that they would under any other circumstances, find reprehensible. I won’t do that again. I want to live with integrity, to look in the mirror and see someone the world approves of. I want all my relationships to be able to be public. But I can’t go back to a marriage in which my sexual self is so denied. And I don’t want to hurt my children, and for such a selfish reason! I had already gone round and round about leaving my marriage for several years, but with the solace of the affair, I was able to put up with it. Now, I just couldn’t do it. A few days after my clandestine bf and I broke up, I told my husband I wanted a divorce. He begged me to stay. We went to counseling (again). We talked about opening up the marriage. But I knew it was over. It was the worst nine months of my life, a bitter gestation. Finally, we agreed to open the marriage (the suggestion came in desperation from my husband; I, having been through an affair and realizing that I might well fall in love with a new partner, especially since I no longer felt the same kind of love for my husband, didn’t want to do it!) Finally, I said let’s open it, and started making plans to look for new partners. When he was confronted with the reality of me actually looking to be non-monogamous, he decided he couldn’t deal with it, after all, and told me we should end the marriage. By the way, I never told him about the affair and he never directly asked. I think it was a case of don’t ask, don’t tell all along, but I couldn’t see the point in telling him once it was all water under the bridge. It would just cause more pain. So he still doesn’t “know,” though I wouldn’t be surprised if he “knew.”
So three years ago, we split up. I often was wracked with guilt at having been the cause for the end of my children’s “perfect” childhood and domestic/family life, just so I could selfishly look for sexual satisfaction. My ex and I were miraculously able to stay friends. I was often lonely, but I never questioned my decision.
I remember when I told my mother I was leaving my marriage. I told her I wanted a relationship that was more fulfilling. She asked, “what if you don’t find one?” I said, “I may not find one. But I KNOW I don’t have a chance of having it as long as I stay married to ------. This way, there’s a chance.”
I am currently dating a man who comes from a marriage much like so many of these sexless marriages we're talking about. He is everything I was looking for. He is amazed to find a smart, kind, funny, sane woman who loves sex, and kinky sex, as much as he does—he didn’t think they existed.
I can't advise the letter writer to preserve his sanity by having an affair, because after having been deprived and starved for so long, I think the chances are high that he won't be willing to just keep having sex "on the side." He will want the whole thing: a loving relationship that includes sex. And he deserves it.
So I would advise this guy to try one last time to talk honestly and perhaps painfully with his wife. Surely something as important as this deserves it, even if she does cry and try to cut off the discussion. He should let her know how much he loves her, how much is missing in his life and how much he wants that lack fulfilled by and with HER--and then, should she be completely unwilling to fulfill him in any way at all, he should leave and live his life with integrity. I wish them both well, and know how agonizing this is.
I apologize for the lengthy post.
More...
But it seems to me that monogamy doesn't equal forced celibacy. Marriage vows aren't or shouldn't be a straightjacket and chastity belt in one. A partner who refuses any and all kinds of sexual intimacy and expects the other not to find that solace elsewhere and furthermore cries if the topic is even broached is being unfair and selfish and indeed, practicing emotional blackmail.
I'm all too aware that the wife's fears that the letter writer would fall in love with any woman he'd have a sexual relationship with are valid--the poor guy is starving for physical, spiritual, sexual, and emotional bonding with another person: a real psychic need and one which she is denying him out of hand.
The emotional and psychological effects of an ongoing and total sexual rejection are profound, and not addressed by telling the letter writer to jerk off more (I'm sure he's masturbating a lot already). The closeness and intimacy are worth so much more than just the sexual release. He (and she, too) needs to feel wanted, to feel desired, to feel as if they share something besides chores and dinner and bills and a history and (perhaps) parental joys and responsibilities. They both need to feel cherished and sexy by the other. They need to feel that sweet, blissful heaviness as sleep takes over after they are sexually satisfied. Not every day, of course, and they need to accommodate whatever limits the wife's illness and debility impose, but if she's just "over" sex, that isn't fair to him or to their marriage.
I'm not a monogamist, necessarily, though I get jealous of the primacy of a a bond, and prefer my sexual non-exclusivity to take the part of threesomes and moresomes or adventures at sex clubs, rather than as a truly open marriage. But this man didn't sign up for a life devoid of sexual intimacy when he married and he deserves to experience the joy of sex with another person. And yet I have serious issues with the idea of cheating or going outside the marriage non-consensually in order to (as Dan puts it) "stay sane." I speak from experience.
Here's the thing: I once had a marriage I described as perfect except for the sex. My problems weren't the same as the letter writers, but after years of trying to address them in similar ways (couples' counseling, emotional discussion, trying to do without fulfilling sex) I decided to "get my needs met" elsewhere.
Initially, I felt that that’s exactly what this affair did. I was happier, more relaxed. I no longer looked to my husband to satisfy me, and so his failure or refusal to try and meet my needs/desires no longer mattered. And for the first time in about 15 years, I felt desired and desirable, powerful aphrodisiacs. The sex was great—so great that I finally realized what I was missing and what was possible.
I never felt guilty; I had stated my intention (even though I know that my husband didn’t think I’d go through with it), and I felt like my conscience was clear. But what happened was that there was so much I couldn’t share with my husband. Obviously the facts of the affair could not be shared, nor could the details. If I heard a funny story from my bf, and wanted to repeat it, I had to make up someone to attribute it to. There were experiences I was having that I couldn’t talk about, and they weren’t all merely sexual. And even the sex: there were particular acts that I hadn’t done before but that we tried and I liked, and I didn’t know how to try and incorporate them into the infrequent sex I was still having with my husband—how to explain where I had learned that I liked them? After a while, the sex I had with my husband became even more unsatisfying, because now I had something wonderful to compare it against, and it came up so short. So I pulled further and further away from my husband emotionally, and after a while, it just became easier to not try to share any of my emotional or inner life with him—so much couldn’t be explained or accounted for without knowledge of what was becoming the most important relationship in my life besides my children. After a while, the distance between us just seemed un-bridge-able.
Well, I can only experience fantastic sex with someone who thinks I am the cat’s pajamas and tells me so and brings me little gifts and makes me laugh and is a nice person and a smart guy for so long before . . . I fell in love. As a married woman. To a married man, who was not my husband. And the love I felt for my husband, once so strong and robust, died a slow, oxygen-deprived death, like a limb cut off by a tourniquet. I, who had entered into this affair thinking that my marriage was perfect save for one small detail, and only wanting to have fun, came to want to leave my house and have my bf leave his wife and have us be together in a legitimate way. But the bf , though he loved me, didn’t want to leave his marriage, and was terrified that he’d lose the love of his children if he left their mother.
My bf was finally—somewhere in our 4th year together—overcome by his guilt and the fear of what would happen if he were caught. We broke it off.
And I thought: I can’t go on with my marriage without the escape/relief that the affair provided. I don’t want to have another affair: although I feel in my heart that I am a good person, I know that in society’s eyes I am a bad person; my actions, were they to be found out, would cause a lot of people—good, undeserving people—pain. I’ve put the friends of mine that know about this affair in an uncomfortable moral position: they love me so they feel compelled to take my side and support me in something that they would under any other circumstances, find reprehensible. I won’t do that again. I want to live with integrity, to look in the mirror and see someone the world approves of. I want all my relationships to be able to be public. But I can’t go back to a marriage in which my sexual self is so denied. And I don’t want to hurt my children, and for such a selfish reason! I had already gone round and round about leaving my marriage for several years, but with the solace of the affair, I was able to put up with it. Now, I just couldn’t do it. A few days after my clandestine bf and I broke up, I told my husband I wanted a divorce. He begged me to stay. We went to counseling (again). We talked about opening up the marriage. But I knew it was over. It was the worst nine months of my life, a bitter gestation. Finally, we agreed to open the marriage (the suggestion came in desperation from my husband; I, having been through an affair and realizing that I might well fall in love with a new partner, especially since I no longer felt the same kind of love for my husband, didn’t want to do it!) Finally, I said let’s open it, and started making plans to look for new partners. When he was confronted with the reality of me actually looking to be non-monogamous, he decided he couldn’t deal with it, after all, and told me we should end the marriage. By the way, I never told him about the affair and he never directly asked. I think it was a case of don’t ask, don’t tell all along, but I couldn’t see the point in telling him once it was all water under the bridge. It would just cause more pain. So he still doesn’t “know,” though I wouldn’t be surprised if he “knew.”
So three years ago, we split up. I often was wracked with guilt at having been the cause for the end of my children’s “perfect” childhood and domestic/family life, just so I could selfishly look for sexual satisfaction. My ex and I were miraculously able to stay friends. I was often lonely, but I never questioned my decision.
I remember when I told my mother I was leaving my marriage. I told her I wanted a relationship that was more fulfilling. She asked, “what if you don’t find one?” I said, “I may not find one. But I KNOW I don’t have a chance of having it as long as I stay married to ------. This way, there’s a chance.”
I am currently dating a man who comes from a marriage much like so many of these sexless marriages we're talking about. He is everything I was looking for. He is amazed to find a smart, kind, funny, sane woman who loves sex, and kinky sex, as much as he does—he didn’t think they existed.
I can't advise the letter writer to preserve his sanity by having an affair, because after having been deprived and starved for so long, I think the chances are high that he won't be willing to just keep having sex "on the side." He will want the whole thing: a loving relationship that includes sex. And he deserves it.
So I would advise this guy to try one last time to talk honestly and perhaps painfully with his wife. Surely something as important as this deserves it, even if she does cry and try to cut off the discussion. He should let her know how much he loves her, how much is missing in his life and how much he wants that lack fulfilled by and with HER--and then, should she be completely unwilling to fulfill him in any way at all, he should leave and live his life with integrity. I wish them both well, and know how agonizing this is.
I apologize for the lengthy post.
114
This isn't a monogamous relationship. She has, in effect, castrated him and forced him into unwanted celibacy. "I won't have sex with you, and won't allow you to have sex with anyone else, and I won't talk about it," for most of 18 years, is not an acceptable position. That's bullshit, no matter how sick she is. If she will not budge from this, then divorce is the only solution.
115
If I were to put on a monogamust hat, which is, after all, the question, I'd say that there aren't enough details. I'd want to go into who's broken which promises both in letter and in spirit. I'd also want to find out what on the wife's part is can't and what is won't, as Ms B points out so well in #65. If I absolutely had to make a guess, I'd say that at some point he just started sucking up more than he knew he ought or more than he was really capable of managing, and it snowballed from there until her illness was firmly driving the relationship (once agree I agree with Ms Kim, which I hope does not reflect poorly on her).
I know whose commentary I'd like to see on this situation. This letter reminds me just a little of the letter from the woman who could have sex with her boyfriend but not her husband six months or so after a sexual assault. The situations aren't all that similar (especially as it was a poly marriage in the earlier letter), but there were some commenters who took the line that noone ever has a *right* to have sex with one's spouse and that the husband was obliged to suck it up indefinitely until the wife was ready to resume. Now, granted, there was certainly a case to be made that the husband in the case was not a prize, but I wished at the time that those commenters might have given a vague time line at which they would have thought it reasonable for a spouse's issues about having to continue to suck it up to be taken seriously. At any rate, I'd like to see what those commenters would say here, because letters like this one seem a possible sequel to letters like the other one if Suck It Up is the beginning and end of the answer. It seems as if something might have been done at some point.
I know whose commentary I'd like to see on this situation. This letter reminds me just a little of the letter from the woman who could have sex with her boyfriend but not her husband six months or so after a sexual assault. The situations aren't all that similar (especially as it was a poly marriage in the earlier letter), but there were some commenters who took the line that noone ever has a *right* to have sex with one's spouse and that the husband was obliged to suck it up indefinitely until the wife was ready to resume. Now, granted, there was certainly a case to be made that the husband in the case was not a prize, but I wished at the time that those commenters might have given a vague time line at which they would have thought it reasonable for a spouse's issues about having to continue to suck it up to be taken seriously. At any rate, I'd like to see what those commenters would say here, because letters like this one seem a possible sequel to letters like the other one if Suck It Up is the beginning and end of the answer. It seems as if something might have been done at some point.
118
@ 113
Thank you for sharing, nocutename.
Please know that I don't think you ever were a bad person. You're all things wonderful and frail that we humans are. I'm glad you found peace and someone to share joy with. I wish you and your's more joy.
Take care,
k
Thank you for sharing, nocutename.
Please know that I don't think you ever were a bad person. You're all things wonderful and frail that we humans are. I'm glad you found peace and someone to share joy with. I wish you and your's more joy.
Take care,
k
119
EricaP, I've been following your story for the past year or so, and hope only for the best for you and your husband. I admire your honesty and attempts to try and work out a happy solution. I hope your husband appreciates what a rare wife you are.
120
Thank you, Kim. You are probably the most compassionate person I could hope to meet online or in real life.
121
I have to say I resent some of the comments from monogamist haters. Not all people in a monogamous relationship are religious zealots. For some, myself included (I'm an atheist, BTW), monogamy is just what we've chosen for the relationship we're in. We fully acknowledge the fact that it doesn't work for everyone and that there are many different types of successful relationships. Jumping to the conclusion that you know what a monogamist would say about this and that it would be the most insensitive, closed-minded "solution" is in-and-of-itself, insensitive and closed-minded.
122
I have to point out something said in Dan's post: "...to say nothing of emotional violence that 15+ years of constant sexual rejection represents..."
Are we going to call extended periods of sexual rejection a form of violence? If that's the case, what's the remedy? Who's the perpetrator? In the context of a monogamous marriage, this is pretty clear, but what about people who just can't convince other people to have sex with them? Prostitution is risky and probably unsatisfying for someone seeking genuine intimacy. I'm a little concerned about what the implications of this thinking are, not disagreeing with it.
In the case of the guy in the letter, I think he ought to try going to a therapist, a sex therapist specifically, if only so he has a safe, neutral space to explain to his wife exactly how he feels. He obviously values his marriage; DTMFA seems callous after eighteen years of matrimony. I think the wife deserves one last chance to try and work it out, hopefully with some emotional support and practical advice from a professional. It seems to me that she's just as broken up about this as he is, and it might take a good while for her to deal with whatever the issue is. If he's willing to try and make it work with her, I think that's the best possible outcome.
If she simply can't have a sexual life with her husband, then it's time for them to negotiate new rules. If she wants to keep her husband, she's going to have to recognize that he's a sexual being, that sexuality is a critical component of human happiness for the vast majority of people, and that she's hurting him by denying him the consolation of a fulfilling sexual life. A therapist could probably be more firm and articulate about this problem than her husband, who has clearly been walking on eggshells about this issue for a long time. There are a lot of ways to negotiate an open marriage, and maybe having a third party as a mediator will help her be more reasonable about this. I'm willing to bet something along the lines of "never in the house, never so I have to hear about it, never more than once a week/month, never spend the night," would give her the control she needs.
If she is unwilling to try anything under any circumstances, then her husband should divorce her. I don't think he should cheat on the sly -- if she's as fragile as he says she is, that would ruin her. I think living honestly and with integrity means confronting the issue. I also think that it's premature to indict the wife in question. If we take the writer at his word (which we should), his wife seems just as frustrated and upset about the situation as he is. She is terrified of losing her husband, she's probably frustrated with the otherness of her own body, and I bet she misses sex as much as he does. For whatever reason, though, she hasn't been able to go there. She does owe him at least a few visits to a sex therapist and a good faith effort to create a long-term solution.
More...
Are we going to call extended periods of sexual rejection a form of violence? If that's the case, what's the remedy? Who's the perpetrator? In the context of a monogamous marriage, this is pretty clear, but what about people who just can't convince other people to have sex with them? Prostitution is risky and probably unsatisfying for someone seeking genuine intimacy. I'm a little concerned about what the implications of this thinking are, not disagreeing with it.
In the case of the guy in the letter, I think he ought to try going to a therapist, a sex therapist specifically, if only so he has a safe, neutral space to explain to his wife exactly how he feels. He obviously values his marriage; DTMFA seems callous after eighteen years of matrimony. I think the wife deserves one last chance to try and work it out, hopefully with some emotional support and practical advice from a professional. It seems to me that she's just as broken up about this as he is, and it might take a good while for her to deal with whatever the issue is. If he's willing to try and make it work with her, I think that's the best possible outcome.
If she simply can't have a sexual life with her husband, then it's time for them to negotiate new rules. If she wants to keep her husband, she's going to have to recognize that he's a sexual being, that sexuality is a critical component of human happiness for the vast majority of people, and that she's hurting him by denying him the consolation of a fulfilling sexual life. A therapist could probably be more firm and articulate about this problem than her husband, who has clearly been walking on eggshells about this issue for a long time. There are a lot of ways to negotiate an open marriage, and maybe having a third party as a mediator will help her be more reasonable about this. I'm willing to bet something along the lines of "never in the house, never so I have to hear about it, never more than once a week/month, never spend the night," would give her the control she needs.
If she is unwilling to try anything under any circumstances, then her husband should divorce her. I don't think he should cheat on the sly -- if she's as fragile as he says she is, that would ruin her. I think living honestly and with integrity means confronting the issue. I also think that it's premature to indict the wife in question. If we take the writer at his word (which we should), his wife seems just as frustrated and upset about the situation as he is. She is terrified of losing her husband, she's probably frustrated with the otherness of her own body, and I bet she misses sex as much as he does. For whatever reason, though, she hasn't been able to go there. She does owe him at least a few visits to a sex therapist and a good faith effort to create a long-term solution.
123
Masturbate, get fatter and fatter, take high blood pressure meds. and anti-depressants to kill your libido and voilà, problem solved: now nobody wants to have sex. Worked for me!
125
You nor I nor anybody else here can properly comment without knowing what her illness is and why she can't fuck but can do a lot of other things. Is it that she can't like sex? Has she always not liked sex? Is she just withholding for some other reason? Is there no cure to her illness?
They both need to go to a sex positive therapy to find out what is most important to them. Then figure out what you need to do.
They both need to go to a sex positive therapy to find out what is most important to them. Then figure out what you need to do.
126
It's called ***masturbation*** (and keep working at communications w/ your wife). I *get* that orgasms aren't optional---but why does that require cheating on your partner (I include coercing an "open" relationship as cheating)? Wank it out!
127
@126 and others...There is a LOT of humanity in an embrace and a good fuck. Sex is a good part of human connection and sanity. Without sex, many people's emotional needs aren't being met. If sex and intimacy weren't part of human connection, monogamy wouldn't be as important to people as it is. But, if sex and intimacy are so unimportant that a lifetime of enforced non-sexuality is so easily tolerable, then why is monogamy so important to you?
It just doesn't make sense to me.
It just doesn't make sense to me.
128
If he has told her his needs are not being met, and she has declined to satisfy his needs in any way, then he has the answer he needs: seek sex elsewhere. He should find an empathetic, sane, and undemanding partner outside his marriage and enjoy himself but he needs to make sure he keeps himself and his new partner clear on relationship boundaries and that is a lot harder to do that type.
masturbation is no substitute for sex with a live human being.
masturbation is no substitute for sex with a live human being.
129
If he has told her his needs are not being met, and she has declined to satisfy his needs in any way, then he has the answer he needs: seek sex elsewhere. He should find an empathetic, sane, and undemanding partner outside his marriage and enjoy himself but he needs to make sure he keeps himself and his new partner clear on relationship boundaries and that is a lot harder to do that type.
masturbation is no substitute for sex with a live human being.
masturbation is no substitute for sex with a live human being.
130
If non-monogamy is a deal breaker for her, he should get a divorce. He says the wife would almost certainly divorce him anyway if she found out he was cheating, which she probably would. They should save themselves the additional heartbreak of that revelation by just divorcing now. Yes, they love each other, but neither of them is happy in the marriage. Love isn't always enough.
131
Why is she doing this to him? A loving supporting husband of many years and she is torturing him year after year? She should be in jail for cruel punishment, physical abuse, assault and battery of spouse, misuse of marriage etc.
How dare you, you bitch! So many women around the world would do about anything to have a spouse like yours and instead of treasure him, you tortured him during many, many years.
To the husband - divorce this lying excuse of a wife and go out and fuck your way around the globe!
How dare you, you bitch! So many women around the world would do about anything to have a spouse like yours and instead of treasure him, you tortured him during many, many years.
To the husband - divorce this lying excuse of a wife and go out and fuck your way around the globe!
132
Here is Dan using an extreme example to justified his own behavior. but, as a monogamist, i go with divorce, if you are not emotionally or sexually satisfied, and you have tried to work on it, is time to end it. life is short. And I find the wife as manipulative as Dan was to get Terry into his monogamish relationship.
133
Here is what I would say:
Hold your wife while you masturbate. Don't ask. Just do it. Have your wife hold you while you masturbate. Whisper in her ear that you love her and that she is sexy. This is a low pressure activity that doesn't pressure her to feel "sexy" if she can't do that.
I am not monogamous personally, but if I were, I would be monogamous with the understanding that people get sick. So that means if one person can't have sex, then neither can. I geuss this is why I don't do monogamy. If I did choose to do monogamy, it wouldn't be case of "only while it's convenient".
Hold your wife while you masturbate. Don't ask. Just do it. Have your wife hold you while you masturbate. Whisper in her ear that you love her and that she is sexy. This is a low pressure activity that doesn't pressure her to feel "sexy" if she can't do that.
I am not monogamous personally, but if I were, I would be monogamous with the understanding that people get sick. So that means if one person can't have sex, then neither can. I geuss this is why I don't do monogamy. If I did choose to do monogamy, it wouldn't be case of "only while it's convenient".
134
While I can't speak for monogamusts, this looks like a case for divorce. A little bit on the side is not going to fix this marriage. In any divorce there are practical concerns which must be addressed: house, kids, insurance, etc., and it is never convenient. He does say she is able to do normal things like work, but if she were dependent for health insurance, they could still have a "functional" divorce: legally married but living separate lives.
It's best to choose honestly when possible.
It's best to choose honestly when possible.
135
I would advise him to get in a time machine and leave her 15 years ago. Short of that leave her now. She sounds like a selfish, awful, manipulative asshole.
If he can't bring himself to leave her now then at least cheat on her.
If he can't bring himself to leave her now then at least cheat on her.
137
I don't care for the phrase "required reading" very much but @113 (nocutename) is something everyone should read to the end. It is essential for monogamists to recognize that not all people are like them. It is equally essential for cheat-ists (if I may refer to Dan's viewpoint that way) to recognize that not all people are like them.
138
@133,
Have you tried that? When I did that I came to the uncomfortable realization that I, in fact, need both hands free to get off. In addition trying to ignore that only one of you is breathing heavy, making weird sounds and faces, and not making a mess on her is really distracting. I don't recommend it.
Peace.
Have you tried that? When I did that I came to the uncomfortable realization that I, in fact, need both hands free to get off. In addition trying to ignore that only one of you is breathing heavy, making weird sounds and faces, and not making a mess on her is really distracting. I don't recommend it.
Peace.
139
It doesn't matter what her illness is, because the issue is not her illness. The issue is her "all about me" ness. She is fine with him going without sex for the rest of their lives - that's the problem. There is a solution to their problem, but in order to get to it, she has to be as invested in his happiness as he is in hers. She has to be willing to help look for the solution - whether it be some form of physical intimacy that does not involve intercourse, or her participation on some fashion in his masturbation, or him going outside the marriage, or who knows what they could come up with if they both tackled the subject in good faith. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would give the guy something, which appears to be all he needs - something.
Instead, not only has she unilaterally ended his sex life along with her own, she refuses to talk about it. In what definition of marriage is that OK?
Instead, not only has she unilaterally ended his sex life along with her own, she refuses to talk about it. In what definition of marriage is that OK?
140
You say your wife can be jealous. Has she always been so or has that only cropped up since she has been ill?
Jealousy usually stems from insecurity. If she feels unsexy she may be feeling, since you need sex so much ("I am very sexual and have always been so") and this is something she feels that she cannot give you, that if you have any sex with anyone else you will immediately run out on her.
You said you would accept any sort of sex. Will your wife give blowjobs? Handjobs? Anything?
My guess, and it's just a guess, that at least 2 possible scenarios playing out here.
Scenario 1) You and your wife truly love each other and want to stay together. Reassure her that you want sex, but the sex is so much better for you if she is a part of it in any way she can. See if you wife would lay in bed with you and kiss you while you jerk off. If that goes well have her get more involved with a handjob and blowjob. She might not want a dick in her vagina because of pain, but surely she can lick and suck cock and balls. This might not be as much as you'd want with vaginal intercourse, but at least it would be something. It might also help your wife realize that you want your sexual life to be with her.
You might also want to try go back to counseling (a different counselor), but maybe try some communication classes too (Crucial Conversations changed my life for the better.)
Scenario 2) You are fooling yourself if you think your wife loves you. I've encountered a lot of recently divorced wives and soon to be divorced wives who realized that they didn't love their husbands anymore (if they ever did). They are often scared and not sure what to do and hold on to the marriage for a few years before they actually take action towards a divorce. During this time, they are miserable and they do a lot of searching for clues as to why the marriage isn't working. The sad thing is that the husbands are usually clueless to their spouse's unhappiness and are floored when the wife asks for a divorce.
If you suspect scenario 2 might be the situation, ask yourself:
Is your wife financially dependent upon you? Does she have a lot of her "own" friends that she can spend time with or is she dependent upon you for most of your socializing? Are their school-aged kids involved?
These would be some of the common considerations a wife might be pondering when thinking of leaving her husband.
I hope that yours is scenario 1, but if not good luck. I'm a big believer in monogamy for most people (myself included), but I'd rather be alone that in a bad relationship. For some years now, yours has been in a bad place.
More...
Jealousy usually stems from insecurity. If she feels unsexy she may be feeling, since you need sex so much ("I am very sexual and have always been so") and this is something she feels that she cannot give you, that if you have any sex with anyone else you will immediately run out on her.
You said you would accept any sort of sex. Will your wife give blowjobs? Handjobs? Anything?
My guess, and it's just a guess, that at least 2 possible scenarios playing out here.
Scenario 1) You and your wife truly love each other and want to stay together. Reassure her that you want sex, but the sex is so much better for you if she is a part of it in any way she can. See if you wife would lay in bed with you and kiss you while you jerk off. If that goes well have her get more involved with a handjob and blowjob. She might not want a dick in her vagina because of pain, but surely she can lick and suck cock and balls. This might not be as much as you'd want with vaginal intercourse, but at least it would be something. It might also help your wife realize that you want your sexual life to be with her.
You might also want to try go back to counseling (a different counselor), but maybe try some communication classes too (Crucial Conversations changed my life for the better.)
Scenario 2) You are fooling yourself if you think your wife loves you. I've encountered a lot of recently divorced wives and soon to be divorced wives who realized that they didn't love their husbands anymore (if they ever did). They are often scared and not sure what to do and hold on to the marriage for a few years before they actually take action towards a divorce. During this time, they are miserable and they do a lot of searching for clues as to why the marriage isn't working. The sad thing is that the husbands are usually clueless to their spouse's unhappiness and are floored when the wife asks for a divorce.
If you suspect scenario 2 might be the situation, ask yourself:
Is your wife financially dependent upon you? Does she have a lot of her "own" friends that she can spend time with or is she dependent upon you for most of your socializing? Are their school-aged kids involved?
These would be some of the common considerations a wife might be pondering when thinking of leaving her husband.
I hope that yours is scenario 1, but if not good luck. I'm a big believer in monogamy for most people (myself included), but I'd rather be alone that in a bad relationship. For some years now, yours has been in a bad place.
141
You say your wife can be jealous. Has she always been so or has that only cropped up since she has been ill?
Jealousy usually stems from insecurity. If she feels unsexy she may be feeling, since you need sex so much ("I am very sexual and have always been so") and this is something she feels that she cannot give you, that if you have any sex with anyone else you will immediately run out on her.
You said you would accept any sort of sex. Will your wife give blowjobs? Handjobs? Anything?
My guess, and it's just a guess, that at least 2 possible scenarios playing out here.
Scenario 1) You and your wife truly love each other and want to stay together. Reassure her that you want sex, but the sex is so much better for you if she is a part of it in any way she can. See if you wife would lay in bed with you and kiss you while you jerk off. If that goes well have her get more involved with a handjob and blowjob. She might not want a dick in her vagina because of pain, but surely she can lick and suck cock and balls. This might not be as much as you'd want with vaginal intercourse, but at least it would be something. It might also help your wife realize that you want your sexual life to be with her.
You might also want to try go back to counseling (a different counselor), but maybe try some communication classes too (Crucial Conversations changed my life for the better.)
Scenario 2) You are fooling yourself if you think your wife loves you. I've encountered a lot of recently divorced wives and soon to be divorced wives who realized that they didn't love their husbands anymore (if they ever did). They are often scared and not sure what to do and hold on to the marriage for a few years before they actually take action towards a divorce. During this time, they are miserable and they do a lot of searching for clues as to why the marriage isn't working. The sad thing is that the husbands are usually clueless to their spouse's unhappiness and are floored when the wife asks for a divorce. I bring up this scenario because if she truly loves you I think she would want to try and please you sexually somehow (like in some of my above suggestions). If she is not willing to do that then she may have some other issues with sex or with you that are much thornier.
If you suspect scenario 2 might be the situation, ask yourself:
Is your wife financially dependent upon you? Does she have a lot of her "own" friends that she can spend time with or is she dependent upon you for most of your socializing? Are there school-aged kids involved?
These would be some of the common considerations a wife might be pondering when thinking of leaving her husband.
I hope that yours is some version of scenario 1. I'm a big believer in monogamy for most people (myself included), but I'd rather be alone that in a bad relationship. For some years now, yours has been in a bad place.
Good luck!
More...
Jealousy usually stems from insecurity. If she feels unsexy she may be feeling, since you need sex so much ("I am very sexual and have always been so") and this is something she feels that she cannot give you, that if you have any sex with anyone else you will immediately run out on her.
You said you would accept any sort of sex. Will your wife give blowjobs? Handjobs? Anything?
My guess, and it's just a guess, that at least 2 possible scenarios playing out here.
Scenario 1) You and your wife truly love each other and want to stay together. Reassure her that you want sex, but the sex is so much better for you if she is a part of it in any way she can. See if you wife would lay in bed with you and kiss you while you jerk off. If that goes well have her get more involved with a handjob and blowjob. She might not want a dick in her vagina because of pain, but surely she can lick and suck cock and balls. This might not be as much as you'd want with vaginal intercourse, but at least it would be something. It might also help your wife realize that you want your sexual life to be with her.
You might also want to try go back to counseling (a different counselor), but maybe try some communication classes too (Crucial Conversations changed my life for the better.)
Scenario 2) You are fooling yourself if you think your wife loves you. I've encountered a lot of recently divorced wives and soon to be divorced wives who realized that they didn't love their husbands anymore (if they ever did). They are often scared and not sure what to do and hold on to the marriage for a few years before they actually take action towards a divorce. During this time, they are miserable and they do a lot of searching for clues as to why the marriage isn't working. The sad thing is that the husbands are usually clueless to their spouse's unhappiness and are floored when the wife asks for a divorce. I bring up this scenario because if she truly loves you I think she would want to try and please you sexually somehow (like in some of my above suggestions). If she is not willing to do that then she may have some other issues with sex or with you that are much thornier.
If you suspect scenario 2 might be the situation, ask yourself:
Is your wife financially dependent upon you? Does she have a lot of her "own" friends that she can spend time with or is she dependent upon you for most of your socializing? Are there school-aged kids involved?
These would be some of the common considerations a wife might be pondering when thinking of leaving her husband.
I hope that yours is some version of scenario 1. I'm a big believer in monogamy for most people (myself included), but I'd rather be alone that in a bad relationship. For some years now, yours has been in a bad place.
Good luck!
142
Sorry, I couldn't read on any further, but it took until @27 for someone to answer Dan's question. I agree with @27, "monogomusts" would say "for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health...forsaking all others..." and all those lovely words that come with the marriage ceremony. I should know, I've spoken them myself, twice. The words have significance, but only when everybody has all their chips in the pot, the wife here does not! She's not fulfilling her vows, "forsaking all others" comes with a quid pro quo "I won't fuck anyone else, but I'll fuck you".
The guy should DTMFA! She works, she does her motherly duties, she cleans the house, but she can't fuck once in a blue moon? BULLSHIT!!! Everybody can do something, Stephen Fucking Hawking, can at least use his vibraphone voicebox to tell his wife a dirty story while she fucks herself with a big black dildo. This woman does nothing and will always do nothing with him. Divorce the game playing bitch and I'll bet you the farm that she'll somehow find a way to fuck someone else, at least until that sucker marries her lazy ass and she goes back to withholding sex from him too.
The guy should DTMFA! She works, she does her motherly duties, she cleans the house, but she can't fuck once in a blue moon? BULLSHIT!!! Everybody can do something, Stephen Fucking Hawking, can at least use his vibraphone voicebox to tell his wife a dirty story while she fucks herself with a big black dildo. This woman does nothing and will always do nothing with him. Divorce the game playing bitch and I'll bet you the farm that she'll somehow find a way to fuck someone else, at least until that sucker marries her lazy ass and she goes back to withholding sex from him too.
143
I have to roll my eyes at those saying that no sex but masturbation is good enough.
If you got married and your spouse said, "hey, we're not having sex ever again but that's okay because I can jack off any time I want" you'd respond, "you sick, damaged fuck!". But you seem oblivious to the fact that you're the sick, damaged fuck because you're the one who is saying, "hey, we're not having sex ever again because you can jack off any time you want".
If you got married and your spouse said, "hey, we're not having sex ever again but that's okay because I can jack off any time I want" you'd respond, "you sick, damaged fuck!". But you seem oblivious to the fact that you're the sick, damaged fuck because you're the one who is saying, "hey, we're not having sex ever again because you can jack off any time you want".
144
@137, on your advice I began reading @113 right up to the point where I began to vomit! The letter writer is a dude, not a woman. He doesn't want to cuddle, he wants to fuck. He doesn't want a bond of intimacy, he wants to fuck, he wants to stick his pussy hungry cock in a wet hole and blow his load all over her open mouth. He can cuddle with his wife, he wants to fuck, not make love, but fuck.
Tell me letter writer, am I wrong?
Tell me letter writer, am I wrong?
145
Hi all,
I love reading your letters to this blog, and their responses. Being only one person, and having only one experience set, it takes me to many places I couldn't get to otherwise in my quest to make myself and my monogamous relationship better. No person going into marriage these days should be limited to do or die mentality because rigidity hurts success. Perfection is the enemy of the good, as evidenced by the higher divorce rate in the bible belt versus the blue states.
I went into my marriage with the possibility that my wife wasn't a person I could spend the rest of my life with, but that she could be. Over time we both made significant discoveries as to what our needs were. Not the least of which were delightful experiments in being sex partners and finding what turns us on. You should notice I mention change, because accepting change is what makes our bond stronger. I had a high school friend ask me if I thought my life was over after the birth of our oldest child. I considered that idea carefully because it seemed outrageous, and true. My life was over as a non-parent, but that didn't mean it wasn't better.
Monogamy, like any relationship, works when it makes the participants a safe and nourishing environment of the kind you need to weather the problems that will occur. Problems like dead or dieing parents/sibs/friends, financial loss, children (sick or healthy), or the shit that sticks between your toes when you walk in your yard. Sex is great, wonderful, and delightful. But if your daughter comes down with a power booting bug the day you have to give a presentation at work, and your partner is working out-of-town, sex really isn't important. OTOH if the sleepy, cuddling sex you had before your partner left makes the difference in keeping you centered, then it becomes crucial. It's all up to you.
It's all up to you.
It is a blessing and a privilege to be my wife's partner. My marriage has been my saving grace countless times because I am a very flawed individual, just like my wife, children, family members, etc.. I have had the good fortune to not reach a breaking point in my marriage, but if the LW has then getting out could be a better option.
Peace.
and the real goal is a safe, fulfilling environment
More...
I love reading your letters to this blog, and their responses. Being only one person, and having only one experience set, it takes me to many places I couldn't get to otherwise in my quest to make myself and my monogamous relationship better. No person going into marriage these days should be limited to do or die mentality because rigidity hurts success. Perfection is the enemy of the good, as evidenced by the higher divorce rate in the bible belt versus the blue states.
I went into my marriage with the possibility that my wife wasn't a person I could spend the rest of my life with, but that she could be. Over time we both made significant discoveries as to what our needs were. Not the least of which were delightful experiments in being sex partners and finding what turns us on. You should notice I mention change, because accepting change is what makes our bond stronger. I had a high school friend ask me if I thought my life was over after the birth of our oldest child. I considered that idea carefully because it seemed outrageous, and true. My life was over as a non-parent, but that didn't mean it wasn't better.
Monogamy, like any relationship, works when it makes the participants a safe and nourishing environment of the kind you need to weather the problems that will occur. Problems like dead or dieing parents/sibs/friends, financial loss, children (sick or healthy), or the shit that sticks between your toes when you walk in your yard. Sex is great, wonderful, and delightful. But if your daughter comes down with a power booting bug the day you have to give a presentation at work, and your partner is working out-of-town, sex really isn't important. OTOH if the sleepy, cuddling sex you had before your partner left makes the difference in keeping you centered, then it becomes crucial. It's all up to you.
It's all up to you.
It is a blessing and a privilege to be my wife's partner. My marriage has been my saving grace countless times because I am a very flawed individual, just like my wife, children, family members, etc.. I have had the good fortune to not reach a breaking point in my marriage, but if the LW has then getting out could be a better option.
Peace.
and the real goal is a safe, fulfilling environment
146
@27 Thank you for your polite and constructive comments. But I have a clarification question for you and those (like @46) who agree with you on the “for better for worse” argument:
-> What do you think a spouse should do when the other breaks the vows?
For instance, if he were to cheat on her openly would you tell her to “suck it up” because it is part of the “for better for worse, etc.?” I ask this because it is undeniable from the points Dan presents that:
-> SHE has BROKEN her vows first. He is just struggling with how to cope with the betrayal.
As a few posters have noted (@96 said it best), monogamy is not the same as celibacy and marriage vows have always been interpreted in “traditional” Western culture to require the first word of “sexually exclusive” as well as the second. (A point made powerfully by @59.)
So, I wonder:
-> If the shoe was on the other foot, and he was a philandering, skirt-chasing, illegitimate baby fathering husband who claimed he couldn’t help it because he had a sickness, who wouldn’t even tolerate talk about his affairs, and therapy had failed to change the situation, would you be telling her to “suck it up,” that this was part of what she signed on for?
Just wondering.
-> What do you think a spouse should do when the other breaks the vows?
For instance, if he were to cheat on her openly would you tell her to “suck it up” because it is part of the “for better for worse, etc.?” I ask this because it is undeniable from the points Dan presents that:
-> SHE has BROKEN her vows first. He is just struggling with how to cope with the betrayal.
As a few posters have noted (@96 said it best), monogamy is not the same as celibacy and marriage vows have always been interpreted in “traditional” Western culture to require the first word of “sexually exclusive” as well as the second. (A point made powerfully by @59.)
So, I wonder:
-> If the shoe was on the other foot, and he was a philandering, skirt-chasing, illegitimate baby fathering husband who claimed he couldn’t help it because he had a sickness, who wouldn’t even tolerate talk about his affairs, and therapy had failed to change the situation, would you be telling her to “suck it up,” that this was part of what she signed on for?
Just wondering.
147
@111:
I'm going to assume you meant to say "before our 20th anniversary" not 20th child. If I'm wrong: a) I guess the last 18 were conceived while on vacation (?) and b) if she was pregnant for 75% of the time over 2 decades and also had to take care of all of those kids, you should consider yourself lucky getting as much as you did.
After our 2nd child, and before our 20th, we got in the habit of not having sex...OTOH, come vacation time my wife would turn back into the passionate lover I've come to worship. Believe me, I know that w/o those vacation breaks I would've been miserable, but I would've stayed.
I'm going to assume you meant to say "before our 20th anniversary" not 20th child. If I'm wrong: a) I guess the last 18 were conceived while on vacation (?) and b) if she was pregnant for 75% of the time over 2 decades and also had to take care of all of those kids, you should consider yourself lucky getting as much as you did.
148
As an aside: We find it fascinating how many people here are saying “oh well, we really need more information; we don’t have all the facts; we need to know more about her illness, they’re therapy, etc.”
Not that we disagree – there is some fair caution and good integrity in this point. But we find it particularly interesting because when we made the same point about another letter a year ago (The Bad Husband, June 10, 2010) we were bitterly attacked by most on this board. And that was not a case – as this is – where Dan explicitly asked people to comment on just the facts as given and not explore the assumptions.
Apparently it is more acceptable to reserve judgment on a wife whose husband claims she is emotionally blackmailing him into celibacy then it is to reserve judgment on a husband whose wife claims he is humiliating her by being open and forward about his kink to others. Fascinating, if a bit disappointing.
Not that we disagree – there is some fair caution and good integrity in this point. But we find it particularly interesting because when we made the same point about another letter a year ago (The Bad Husband, June 10, 2010) we were bitterly attacked by most on this board. And that was not a case – as this is – where Dan explicitly asked people to comment on just the facts as given and not explore the assumptions.
Apparently it is more acceptable to reserve judgment on a wife whose husband claims she is emotionally blackmailing him into celibacy then it is to reserve judgment on a husband whose wife claims he is humiliating her by being open and forward about his kink to others. Fascinating, if a bit disappointing.
151
But, for the LW: If you have exhausted every other reasonable option, then tell her that she has to acknowledge that you need a sexual outlet -- and if she refuses to concede that point, then she should be the one to file for divorce. But tough it out until you reach that point, so you can truthfully say you haven't cheated. That may be the best way to maintain the sympathies of your friends, family and divorce court judge.
152
@27, if I shared your views of what marriage means, I would have to make a solemn vow and commitment to myself never to get married. The kind of marriage you describe may be doable for saints and martyrs, but it's no life for a human being.
I think that your use of the "for better or worse" argument shows a poorly thought out notion of what that vow really means. I don't think people say it to mean that they will stay married to a spouse who is choosing to make them unhappy. I think it means that they will stay married regardless of the terrible circumstances the couple may find themselves in - things that the external world does to them. "For better or worse" doesn't give married people carte blanche to make each other miserable.
And this man's wife is choosing to make her husband miserable. Her illness is an external, involuntary thing that has happened to her/them, but her refusal to have sex is a problem of her own making. Illness is not a good excuse for what she's doing to her husband. Even if she has lost her libido or finds intercourse painful or doesn't enjoy being touched in a sexual way, she should still be willing to provide Dan's oft-recommended loving assist. "To love/comfort/cherish" is in traditional wedding vows, too, right?
If you won't acknowledge sex as a "need," I think you can at least agree that this man *desperately* wants it, and that going without is painful. His wife should love and cherish him enough to help ease his pain and desperation.
I think that your use of the "for better or worse" argument shows a poorly thought out notion of what that vow really means. I don't think people say it to mean that they will stay married to a spouse who is choosing to make them unhappy. I think it means that they will stay married regardless of the terrible circumstances the couple may find themselves in - things that the external world does to them. "For better or worse" doesn't give married people carte blanche to make each other miserable.
And this man's wife is choosing to make her husband miserable. Her illness is an external, involuntary thing that has happened to her/them, but her refusal to have sex is a problem of her own making. Illness is not a good excuse for what she's doing to her husband. Even if she has lost her libido or finds intercourse painful or doesn't enjoy being touched in a sexual way, she should still be willing to provide Dan's oft-recommended loving assist. "To love/comfort/cherish" is in traditional wedding vows, too, right?
If you won't acknowledge sex as a "need," I think you can at least agree that this man *desperately* wants it, and that going without is painful. His wife should love and cherish him enough to help ease his pain and desperation.
153
@ 151, what if she refuses to do either? She just might. She also might take the stance of "Well sure, you *deserve* a sexual outlet, but I didn't *deserve* to get sick, either." My point is that she could very easily not change anything and still not file for divorce.
154
For what its worth, an implied, but actually standard component of monogamy is that exclusivity also implies availability. Which is to say, as part of the deal, sex is expected. How much, how often, when, is all negotiable, but monogamy is not abstinence.
So, if you believe that monogamy is a part of marriage, than in the situation described above, the marriage has already failed. And as someone who believes that monogamy is a very good thing, and while hard, not nearly as hard as advertised (at least not any harder than any other sort of fidelity), I don't actually find this non-hypothetical situation at all in tension with monogamy. It is actually a problem that is caused by marriages, in general.
Real life situations like this are tragedies, and what needs to be done for this guy is not "to stay sane" but to "stay happy." His sex-related problem isn't one of release, its one of misery, part and parcel of being stuck, because of his loyalty to his wife's needs and wants, and it sounds like not his dedication to the institution of marriage, in an unhappy situation. If keeping himself in some way unhappy, in order to keep his wife happy, ultimately makes him more happy than the alternative, then that is what he should do.
Monogamy is like any other "shall not" norm. You shall not kill, you shall not steal, you shall not cheat. And if I'm starving, and my victim is wealthy? I'm still stealing, and my victim is still a victim. But it may be the least wrong thing to do. The price of having a norm like monogamy is to say that if the husband in the situation above get sex elsewhere, he is still sympathetic, we understand why he's doing what he's doing, the wife is not a blameless victim, and what he still did is wrong.
So, if you believe that monogamy is a part of marriage, than in the situation described above, the marriage has already failed. And as someone who believes that monogamy is a very good thing, and while hard, not nearly as hard as advertised (at least not any harder than any other sort of fidelity), I don't actually find this non-hypothetical situation at all in tension with monogamy. It is actually a problem that is caused by marriages, in general.
Real life situations like this are tragedies, and what needs to be done for this guy is not "to stay sane" but to "stay happy." His sex-related problem isn't one of release, its one of misery, part and parcel of being stuck, because of his loyalty to his wife's needs and wants, and it sounds like not his dedication to the institution of marriage, in an unhappy situation. If keeping himself in some way unhappy, in order to keep his wife happy, ultimately makes him more happy than the alternative, then that is what he should do.
Monogamy is like any other "shall not" norm. You shall not kill, you shall not steal, you shall not cheat. And if I'm starving, and my victim is wealthy? I'm still stealing, and my victim is still a victim. But it may be the least wrong thing to do. The price of having a norm like monogamy is to say that if the husband in the situation above get sex elsewhere, he is still sympathetic, we understand why he's doing what he's doing, the wife is not a blameless victim, and what he still did is wrong.
155
As a "monogamist", this one's a no-brainer: DTMFA. She insists he not have sex with anyone else, but hasn't been interested in having sex with him for, apparently, over a decade, and yet is "terrified" of him leaving her? If he even raises the subject of sex she attacks him verbally? That's sure some way of showing your "love" for someone! And she "loves" him ever so much yet she's left him in no doubt she'd divorce him in a heartbeat if he ever didn't obey her demands?
She's a lying, manipulative, abusive piece of shit and he should get the hell out of there now.
Oh, and if I'm a "monogamist", does that make you an anti-monogamist, Dan?
She's a lying, manipulative, abusive piece of shit and he should get the hell out of there now.
Oh, and if I'm a "monogamist", does that make you an anti-monogamist, Dan?
156
Telling this guy that the "in sickness and in health" part of the marriage vows include putting up with a sexless marriage is a little like telling a woman whose husband constantly goes out and blows all their money on a bunch of stupid crap she hates, hey, the vows said "for richer or poorer," so if his spending habits are bankrupting you, you're just going to have to put up with it. I'm sorry, no. If sexual exclusivity is at the heart of a monogamous marriage, then refusing sex (and especially if that includes alternate forms of intimacy, as appears to be the case with the letter writer) is a form of infidelity. Even Christian marriage counselors point to the advice of St. Paul in 1 Corinthians that married couples ought not abstain from sex lest one or both partners be tempted. If illness, accidents, pregnancy, etc., puts one partner in a position of either not wanting or being unable to have sex, it is incumbent upon _them_ to make sure their unencumbered partner is still being satisfied, whether that's through alternative forms of intimacy or some other mutually-agreed upon arrangement.
157
I personally believe that there are only two long-term tenable approaches to marriage: (1) complete monogamy where both partners are sexually satisfied or at least trying to satisfy each other or (2) open and honest non-monogamy where both partners are allowed to have sex outside the relationship. (Allowed = opportunity, not guaranteed sex). Yes, there are some variations that work for a small minority of people (e.g., cuckhold fetishists or where the woman has zero interest in sex but gives hubby permission to get sex outside the marriage), but by and large, the vast humans can only really function in one type or the other as they are the only forms where there is equality between the partners.
This man is not in either position. He's in a marriage where he can't have sex at all. That's cruel and ultimately untenable.
As for what to do, I'm opposed to him staying and seeking sex outside. Why? Because this isn't just about sex. Reading his letter, I think what he wants isn't just to get his rocks off, but to have a lover. Thus, the only way he can be truly fulfilled is to have a full-blown mistress. If he does that, I really don't think he can be fair to both women. If his wife were fully-functional and just hated sex, then maybe. I say maybe because most humans think they can give enough to more than one person...and they can, but only if it's not done on the sly. The mere act of keeping it secret requires too much damn energy. I have never seen a person that could do this and be fair to both partners. So who should get the short end of the stick? The sick wife or the mistress?
Going to a pro or having one-night stands isn't going to cut it. It would do so if his wife were an intimate partner in all areas except sex. I could be reading this wrong, but it seems to me they are partners in the business end of marriage, but not the emotional/physical/sexual aspects.
So, in the end, if he wants to be truly satisfied, he needs to leave. He loves his wife and wants to take care of her. This is noble. If they are not having sex and there are no children, I see nothing he is doing for the wife that he could not do as a friend.
The ONLY two reasons to stay and cheat are (1) there's no way to keep her insured otherwise and insurance is really important and (2) social stigma.
As for the social stigma angle: If he leaves her, but continues to support her and be with her as often as she needs, the stigma of leaving a sick woman will be minimal. It's not like he's divorcing her and throwing her to the wolves.
So, unless there's a absolute, insurmountable insurance problem, leave her and stay her friend and supporter. Because that's all he is now. He's not really a husband to her.
More...
This man is not in either position. He's in a marriage where he can't have sex at all. That's cruel and ultimately untenable.
As for what to do, I'm opposed to him staying and seeking sex outside. Why? Because this isn't just about sex. Reading his letter, I think what he wants isn't just to get his rocks off, but to have a lover. Thus, the only way he can be truly fulfilled is to have a full-blown mistress. If he does that, I really don't think he can be fair to both women. If his wife were fully-functional and just hated sex, then maybe. I say maybe because most humans think they can give enough to more than one person...and they can, but only if it's not done on the sly. The mere act of keeping it secret requires too much damn energy. I have never seen a person that could do this and be fair to both partners. So who should get the short end of the stick? The sick wife or the mistress?
Going to a pro or having one-night stands isn't going to cut it. It would do so if his wife were an intimate partner in all areas except sex. I could be reading this wrong, but it seems to me they are partners in the business end of marriage, but not the emotional/physical/sexual aspects.
So, in the end, if he wants to be truly satisfied, he needs to leave. He loves his wife and wants to take care of her. This is noble. If they are not having sex and there are no children, I see nothing he is doing for the wife that he could not do as a friend.
The ONLY two reasons to stay and cheat are (1) there's no way to keep her insured otherwise and insurance is really important and (2) social stigma.
As for the social stigma angle: If he leaves her, but continues to support her and be with her as often as she needs, the stigma of leaving a sick woman will be minimal. It's not like he's divorcing her and throwing her to the wolves.
So, unless there's a absolute, insurmountable insurance problem, leave her and stay her friend and supporter. Because that's all he is now. He's not really a husband to her.
158
This actually sounds tantamount to a gay may married to a woman who is not being fulfilled by his wife sexually. Monogamists would say to stay and not give into your baser instincts in that context. They would say it here as well. Since he's a monogamist, that is what he is telling himself. I don't see a way out for him IN the marriage. She obviously hates sex. As someone stated above, who can basically live a normal life except for sex (unless she has a razor blade lodged inside her somewhere that can't be removed)? He obviously likes monogamy. Impasse. Find someone else.
159
"That may be the best way to maintain the sympathies of your friends, family and divorce court judge."
FYI, while some states do consider infidelity in awarding spousal support, it would not matter in this case, because of the length of the marriage and her health condition. Those two factors alone are going to mean he's going to support her the rest of her life (unless she's loaded or has a high-paying job or she remarries). So I would not worry about divorce court.
If he's worried about the sympathies of friends and family, the thing that matters most is how he treats her after the divorce. If he supports her financially, practically (e.g., taking her to doctor's appointments), and emotionally, he probably will be viewed as a saint and not a villan.
FYI, while some states do consider infidelity in awarding spousal support, it would not matter in this case, because of the length of the marriage and her health condition. Those two factors alone are going to mean he's going to support her the rest of her life (unless she's loaded or has a high-paying job or she remarries). So I would not worry about divorce court.
If he's worried about the sympathies of friends and family, the thing that matters most is how he treats her after the divorce. If he supports her financially, practically (e.g., taking her to doctor's appointments), and emotionally, he probably will be viewed as a saint and not a villan.
160
148
I want more information not because it will mean that I judge him differently based on how he chooses to act. It would mean I would understand the situation better and be able to advise him on what to do.
I would like to know:
(1) Is she affectionate AT ALL? Does she cuddle, etc? (i.e., is it only sex he is missing, or is he missing a lover and affectionate partner?)
(2) How is their emotional intimacy?
(3) Do they have an intellectually intimate relationship? Is this important to him?
(4) Just how bad is her illness? Can she take care of herself on a day-to-day basis or does she need a partner or home care?
(4) Can she support herself or is she always going to be dependent financially? Does he have the means to support two households if they divorce?
(5) Can they get insurance for her if they divorce or do they need to stay married for that reason alone?
(6) Does she have family and friends that could take over some of the supporting roles he has been playing?
I could go on, but I think this is sufficient to paint the picture.
None of this bears on the justification for cheating or not. None of it bears on whether seeking sex outside the marriage would even be cheating in this situation. It does bear on whether or not he can leave her without feeling guilty and without supporting her the rest of her life anyway.
See, if she is totally dependent on him and really needs him, better to stay married and seek an outside source for this part of his needs. If she isn't totally dependent and he can take care of her sufficiently after the divorce, then he should leave.
It isn't about judging his actions, but about seeing what his options are.
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I want more information not because it will mean that I judge him differently based on how he chooses to act. It would mean I would understand the situation better and be able to advise him on what to do.
I would like to know:
(1) Is she affectionate AT ALL? Does she cuddle, etc? (i.e., is it only sex he is missing, or is he missing a lover and affectionate partner?)
(2) How is their emotional intimacy?
(3) Do they have an intellectually intimate relationship? Is this important to him?
(4) Just how bad is her illness? Can she take care of herself on a day-to-day basis or does she need a partner or home care?
(4) Can she support herself or is she always going to be dependent financially? Does he have the means to support two households if they divorce?
(5) Can they get insurance for her if they divorce or do they need to stay married for that reason alone?
(6) Does she have family and friends that could take over some of the supporting roles he has been playing?
I could go on, but I think this is sufficient to paint the picture.
None of this bears on the justification for cheating or not. None of it bears on whether seeking sex outside the marriage would even be cheating in this situation. It does bear on whether or not he can leave her without feeling guilty and without supporting her the rest of her life anyway.
See, if she is totally dependent on him and really needs him, better to stay married and seek an outside source for this part of his needs. If she isn't totally dependent and he can take care of her sufficiently after the divorce, then he should leave.
It isn't about judging his actions, but about seeing what his options are.
161
I'm a gay couples therapist in a long-term monagamous relationship, and here's my take: http://www.stephencrippen.com/blog/what-…
162
Im a gay couples therapist in a long-term monogamous relationship, and here's my take: http://www.stephencrippen.com/blog/what-…
163
So, Dan thinks this is some "gotcha" for the "monogamusts", because (let us grant) this guy isn't doing anything wrong, yet is forced into a celibate marriage without even the possibility of discussing options with his spouse. Let's be clear: in last week's column, Dan immediately recommended going outside the relationship to a guy who was in no way, shape, or form in this situation, and he chastised another guy for being reluctant to visit a sex worker without his wife. So when Dan advises people not to be monogamous, it certainly doesn't have to be a crisis situation like this, where there's absolutely no sex at all in a lengthy marital relationship!
Dan is also conflating "the adultery-is-always-wrong crowd" with the "monogamust" crowd in his query. I think adultery is always wrong, but I don't think divorce is always wrong. So if you feel circumstances are so desperate that cheating is a live option, then you ought to be willing to consider either divorce or working out terms of an open relationship that your partner knows about. Cheating is never the way to do it.
This letter writer says that fidelity matters to him--and obviously, if he's stuck it out this long! So if he cheats, he gets to feel like an asshole who betrayed his own ideals, he has to worry about lying and covering his lies, and he has to face condemnation for what he's done when, otherwise, people would likely have great sympathy for his situation.
Or he can take the honest road that will give him either a solution or a release: demand communication about this issue. If the wife is sick, she has doctors. Why haven't they already been consulted about this? What do they say about her physical and mental capacities for sex? Can they recommend another therapist? Therapy is not a one-shot instant cure--it requires effort and sometimes visiting more than one professional until solutions are found. If the wife refuses any of this, first you let her know that you're talking to the doctors and therapist along, if she won't go. And then, with their help, you work out a plan you can feel decent about. In this case, if the wife refuses all communcation or alternative forms of sexual activity, maybe that plan is going to be divorce. And not because she was betrayed, but because she has betrayed her husband by refusing even to show concern for his needs. Because it's not only about the sex, but the love and concern you have for your partner. If one person totally stops showing that, it doesn't make it okay to cheat on them--it makes it okay to demand communication or else demand an end to the relationship".
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Dan is also conflating "the adultery-is-always-wrong crowd" with the "monogamust" crowd in his query. I think adultery is always wrong, but I don't think divorce is always wrong. So if you feel circumstances are so desperate that cheating is a live option, then you ought to be willing to consider either divorce or working out terms of an open relationship that your partner knows about. Cheating is never the way to do it.
This letter writer says that fidelity matters to him--and obviously, if he's stuck it out this long! So if he cheats, he gets to feel like an asshole who betrayed his own ideals, he has to worry about lying and covering his lies, and he has to face condemnation for what he's done when, otherwise, people would likely have great sympathy for his situation.
Or he can take the honest road that will give him either a solution or a release: demand communication about this issue. If the wife is sick, she has doctors. Why haven't they already been consulted about this? What do they say about her physical and mental capacities for sex? Can they recommend another therapist? Therapy is not a one-shot instant cure--it requires effort and sometimes visiting more than one professional until solutions are found. If the wife refuses any of this, first you let her know that you're talking to the doctors and therapist along, if she won't go. And then, with their help, you work out a plan you can feel decent about. In this case, if the wife refuses all communcation or alternative forms of sexual activity, maybe that plan is going to be divorce. And not because she was betrayed, but because she has betrayed her husband by refusing even to show concern for his needs. Because it's not only about the sex, but the love and concern you have for your partner. If one person totally stops showing that, it doesn't make it okay to cheat on them--it makes it okay to demand communication or else demand an end to the relationship".
164
Ill and finding sex physically painful is not the same as willfully withholding sex. Anyone who gets married or commits to a lifelong partnership may well find themselves on one side of this equation someday - caring for a sick spouse who cannot have sex, or have a spouse caring for them. The only real difference here is that the participants are relatively young, and thus have a stronger sex drive than, say, a married couple at 75 and one is very ill. My heart goes out to this man, but it is his wife who is very sick. I am sure she would love to be healthy, active, and interested in sex with her husband, and generally able to enjoy her life, which may not have been able to do for many years. Many of the respondents seem to think he is justified in cheating or divorcing but have the implicit assumption that she is mistreating him, and there's no evidence of that. I don't know the answer for either of these unfortunate souls, but I think that if a couple values monogamy, and neither is open to any other arrangement, illness should not change that calculation.
165
I'd say that not all counselors are created equal. If at first you don't succeed, chuck the quack, check certifications and try again.
Also, notice how counselors are human and their ideas can change over the years just like everyone else's? If the "years ago" was more than ten, then trying counseling now might be less likely to result in a "sex isn't so important"/"you're doing it wrong" dismissal of the couple's problem.
Mr. Savage, you say that while we should all accept that our partners will get older, completely neglecting one's appearance is bad. This wife seems to be neglecting her psychological appearance. She should make a reasonable effort to be sexually attractive on the inside.
Also, notice how counselors are human and their ideas can change over the years just like everyone else's? If the "years ago" was more than ten, then trying counseling now might be less likely to result in a "sex isn't so important"/"you're doing it wrong" dismissal of the couple's problem.
Mr. Savage, you say that while we should all accept that our partners will get older, completely neglecting one's appearance is bad. This wife seems to be neglecting her psychological appearance. She should make a reasonable effort to be sexually attractive on the inside.
166
If the permanence of the marriage is the top priority and monogamy - or more strictly, fidelity - is a deal breaker, then it's a closed case. He remains miserable for as long as she's in pain or until one of them dies.
However, if both partners' happiness within the bounds of monogamy is the top priority, then they exhaust all options short of adulterous encounters till one wants out. Finances, children, etc, will all adjust, and adjustment is difficult. But if one of the partners cannot ever reach happiness because of an unchangeable factor such as in this case, then begin the grieving process and separate.
(dude, you're 40. Time to lay the cards on the table. You want sex or you're out. Nothing personal, but your needs aren't being met.)
However, if both partners' happiness within the bounds of monogamy is the top priority, then they exhaust all options short of adulterous encounters till one wants out. Finances, children, etc, will all adjust, and adjustment is difficult. But if one of the partners cannot ever reach happiness because of an unchangeable factor such as in this case, then begin the grieving process and separate.
(dude, you're 40. Time to lay the cards on the table. You want sex or you're out. Nothing personal, but your needs aren't being met.)
167
This is a great thread, and it speaks to my situation as well. Like this guy, I'm in a long-term marriage (11 years so far). My wife is ill, though not physically. She has been depressed, in my opinion, for years since the birth of our older son. Our sex life has been in a gradual state of decline for about 10 years. It wasn't like she was great in bed to begin with, and we had some really good sex in the beginning, but the boundary around what is and isn't acceptable sexual behavior between us has shrunk to the point where I'm not enjoying it anymore. At this point, I struggle to maintain an erection when we do have sex, which is usually once a month for a few minutes, missionary only, no oral, no foreplay, with her arms folded across her chest (did I forget to mention no touching her tits?). She seems to be -- and I say "seems" because she's been unwilling to discuss or deal with our sex life in any mature way or seek individual (or couples) therapy -- arrested in her sexual thinking at about age 11 or 12, when sex is interesting but still a little dirty. A few years ago, however, she did hear me out and briefly floated a suggestion that I find a girlfriend for sex. When she gave me her rules, however, it was clear to me that she wasn't serious, and I called her bullshit, then she withdrew the suggestion. But it was at that point that I decided to do what Dan advised "to stay sane." I've been seeing a much younger woman (I'm 49, she's 24) for about two years. I get to enjoy a healthy, regular, and fulfilling sex life and then go home to be with my family.
I still love my wife and hope to be with her to watch our children grow and start families of their own. But I will not be held hostage to her depression, no matter what vows I made at the altar. @ #27, my wife may be forsaking all others by not cheating, but she is forsaking her husband by withdrawing so completely. Were it not for the kids, however, I'd divorce her today. And if this guy in Dan's column doesn't have kids, I'd counsel him to run for the hills.
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I still love my wife and hope to be with her to watch our children grow and start families of their own. But I will not be held hostage to her depression, no matter what vows I made at the altar. @ #27, my wife may be forsaking all others by not cheating, but she is forsaking her husband by withdrawing so completely. Were it not for the kids, however, I'd divorce her today. And if this guy in Dan's column doesn't have kids, I'd counsel him to run for the hills.
168
Agreeing to have sex with other people is one thing, but I do think cheating is always wrong. Better to divorce than live a lie.
169
There are a lot of things that can go wrong with women which can cause long-term, intractable pelvic pain upon penetration. Since everything in the pelvic neighborhood is pretty close together, anatomically, anal penetration can cause pain too.
This doesn't mean the woman can't walk, or work at a desk job, or even do housework. Her pain could just come about through penetration.
It's also possible (the letter writer doesn't say) that she could have lost her birth canal entirely, let's say to cancer. Coupled with intractable pelvic pain, this would rule out anal too.
Which leads to the next question. Is this man's objection that he can't sexually penetrate his wife? If so, and if no other sex will do (i.e. no oral, no manual, no toys), then he's got a lot more of a problem than just not being able to get off.
Because if he does try to divorce her (because he just has to have that PIV penetration), there's a very good probability that he is not going to have any money to spend on escorts, or "game," or anything else - because he is going to be supporting her for the rest of her life, even if they're divorced.
To all you MRAs out there who think this is "so unfair," well, that's marriage. You don't want that level of responsibility, don't get married. (Please. Do us all a favor.)
Would those urging divorce say the same thing if it were, let's say, a man who lost his penis in an accident, and his wife were writing in, saying "I hate dildos; it has to be a warm living cock; I'm divorcing him?"
This doesn't mean the woman can't walk, or work at a desk job, or even do housework. Her pain could just come about through penetration.
It's also possible (the letter writer doesn't say) that she could have lost her birth canal entirely, let's say to cancer. Coupled with intractable pelvic pain, this would rule out anal too.
Which leads to the next question. Is this man's objection that he can't sexually penetrate his wife? If so, and if no other sex will do (i.e. no oral, no manual, no toys), then he's got a lot more of a problem than just not being able to get off.
Because if he does try to divorce her (because he just has to have that PIV penetration), there's a very good probability that he is not going to have any money to spend on escorts, or "game," or anything else - because he is going to be supporting her for the rest of her life, even if they're divorced.
To all you MRAs out there who think this is "so unfair," well, that's marriage. You don't want that level of responsibility, don't get married. (Please. Do us all a favor.)
Would those urging divorce say the same thing if it were, let's say, a man who lost his penis in an accident, and his wife were writing in, saying "I hate dildos; it has to be a warm living cock; I'm divorcing him?"
170
This is a fascinating thread because I swear to God I was planning on writing to Dan today with a similar question. We're coming up on a dozen years of marriage and the man I met and married, who entertained me with stories of his many varied sexual experiences, his strong sex drive and who (on days when I didn't have my kids with me) would sometimes spend entire days in bed with me no longer offers sex, often turns it down when I ask, and yet insists he's fine, nothing is wrong, and he has no issues with me.
Like another commenter, vacations are amazing-it's clear he has no problem performing. But at home-one of the kids might hear or need something, he's tired, work sucked, whatever. And this is a guy who once told me he couldn't get by as a single dude without masterbating 4 times or more a day.
Yeah we're older, yeah work does suck sometimes, yeah, our tween can be a needy pain in the ass sometimes and my older kids seem to think I'm their personal internet service but really-I have to BEG? And our kinky fun? It's been so long I don't even know where the toy bag is.
To the LW-it's not about her illness, it's about her unwillingness to even try to find a compromise. Ask for one more round of counseling and do your homework to find one who "gets" both of you and that you trust.
As for me-I love my guy-and he knocks himself out to see that we're stable and happy in so many ways. He's a great dad and he puts up with so much crap from my loser older kids that he deserves sainthood. But we're going to be having a "we need to talk" come to Jesus meeting very soon. I don't like looking at how I think that's going to go and it breaks my heart.
Like another commenter, vacations are amazing-it's clear he has no problem performing. But at home-one of the kids might hear or need something, he's tired, work sucked, whatever. And this is a guy who once told me he couldn't get by as a single dude without masterbating 4 times or more a day.
Yeah we're older, yeah work does suck sometimes, yeah, our tween can be a needy pain in the ass sometimes and my older kids seem to think I'm their personal internet service but really-I have to BEG? And our kinky fun? It's been so long I don't even know where the toy bag is.
To the LW-it's not about her illness, it's about her unwillingness to even try to find a compromise. Ask for one more round of counseling and do your homework to find one who "gets" both of you and that you trust.
As for me-I love my guy-and he knocks himself out to see that we're stable and happy in so many ways. He's a great dad and he puts up with so much crap from my loser older kids that he deserves sainthood. But we're going to be having a "we need to talk" come to Jesus meeting very soon. I don't like looking at how I think that's going to go and it breaks my heart.
171
@Amanda 168, I agree that it's better to be in the open. I would love to get my wife's consent to let me seek sexual fulfillment elsewhere. However, her depression has stunted her emotional maturity. I love her and love our family unit; we actually work well together. It would devastate her to know that I was cheating, but she couldn't handle it if it were in the open. My god, what would happen if someone we knew found out? What about her parents, her relatives? How would the kids deal with it if someone in their school told them their parents were perverts like their parents told them? These improbabilities are enough to scare her away from a mature, workable solution.
You say it's better to divorce than live a lie. I think it's better for my children to have two parents who love each other (and we do) modeling a loving relationship in the same house. Divorce is simply not an option for me: it would be like throwing them under an emotional bus. If my wife wants to leave, well, in the state where we live, I can't stop her, but even though I'm having sex with another woman, I still take my commitment to my wife and family very seriously.
Our anniversary is coming up. Maybe it's time to have another conversation about it and feel her out for her willingness.
You say it's better to divorce than live a lie. I think it's better for my children to have two parents who love each other (and we do) modeling a loving relationship in the same house. Divorce is simply not an option for me: it would be like throwing them under an emotional bus. If my wife wants to leave, well, in the state where we live, I can't stop her, but even though I'm having sex with another woman, I still take my commitment to my wife and family very seriously.
Our anniversary is coming up. Maybe it's time to have another conversation about it and feel her out for her willingness.
172
I wouldn't consider divorce a good option for anyone whose spouse was unable to have sex, yet still cared about the other person and was willing to discuss the problem. But Dan said to take this letter at face value: her pain prevents intercourse but she can still function in other ways, she refuses any communication about it, and he has experienced this from ages 22-40 so far. Therefore, this situation is not about someone having cancer, or an accident, or whatever.
Taken on the surface, this is a woman who is still capable of laying there naked, or pretending to enthusiastic encouragement, or offering use of her hand. Or if she's too upset to do those things, she's capable of going back to a counselor, or talking to her doctor, or at least talking to her husband as if this is a serious problem and he's a human being with sexual desires. What's the real story here? I have no idea--I am taking it at face value.
Taken on the surface, this is a woman who is still capable of laying there naked, or pretending to enthusiastic encouragement, or offering use of her hand. Or if she's too upset to do those things, she's capable of going back to a counselor, or talking to her doctor, or at least talking to her husband as if this is a serious problem and he's a human being with sexual desires. What's the real story here? I have no idea--I am taking it at face value.
173
@169: Read the letter a little more closely.
But honestly I’ve been very supportive and would accept any sort of sex (and I’ve asked).We're not advocating divorce/cheating because she's incapable of vaginal penetration. We're advocating divorce/cheating because she is making zero effort to attend to her husband's sexual needs.
174
Seebee,
You didn't read the letter very close, did you? It's pretty clear that any kind of sex would do. He said:
"she is in pain, so I can understand her not wanting to have a dick inside her. But honestly I've been very supportive and would accept any sort of sex (and I've asked)."
Pay attention before you spout off. If she can work and handle normal activities of daily living, she can manage a hand job. She can try a blow job or suck on his balls, or nipples, or kiss him while he jerks off.
Also, all of you gloom and doomsayers suggesting that he will have to support her the rest of her life if he gets a divorce are flatly wrong in most American states. Property will be divided, there may or may not be a temporary maintenance provision, but if she is capable of working, anything longterm or significant is highly unlikely. LW, when it comes to this, and it will, consult a legal professional in your state.
You didn't read the letter very close, did you? It's pretty clear that any kind of sex would do. He said:
"she is in pain, so I can understand her not wanting to have a dick inside her. But honestly I've been very supportive and would accept any sort of sex (and I've asked)."
Pay attention before you spout off. If she can work and handle normal activities of daily living, she can manage a hand job. She can try a blow job or suck on his balls, or nipples, or kiss him while he jerks off.
Also, all of you gloom and doomsayers suggesting that he will have to support her the rest of her life if he gets a divorce are flatly wrong in most American states. Property will be divided, there may or may not be a temporary maintenance provision, but if she is capable of working, anything longterm or significant is highly unlikely. LW, when it comes to this, and it will, consult a legal professional in your state.
175
@169 >>> Would those urging divorce say the same thing if it were, let's say, a man who lost his penis in an accident, and his wife were writing in, saying "I hate dildos; it has to be a warm living cock; I'm divorcing him?"
Oddly, Dan posted such a letter just now. Check out "Another One for the Monogamusts" posted on Slog at 10:16 today.
Oddly, Dan posted such a letter just now. Check out "Another One for the Monogamusts" posted on Slog at 10:16 today.
176
170, I'm sorry about your situation and I totally agree: this letter is not about the lack of sex per se, but the absence of any decent communication or compromise on the subject. You can't make a marriage work if you lack those things in general. I really hope that your husband is willing to work through the problem. I think it's totally reasonable to insist on a) a medical checkup to rule out things, and b) discussing it with a counselor. If you love your spouse, those are things you ought to be willing to do when there's a serious problem. If not, you're basically saying that the spouse's feelings no longer matter to you.
177
Mr. Downtown, is your wife seeking treatment for depression? Has her "shrinking circle" of sexual activities she's willing to do been discussed with a doctor or therapist? Maybe the answers are yes, but if not, I would pursue those options. Have you let her know that she faces a choice between working on your sexual issues or losing you, because it's that big a deal?
You said that she would be unable to handle the affair if it were in the open. What makes you think nobody will ever discover the affair? All the things you fear could happen then, regardless. Personally, I'm opposed to cheating, but I can't make the moral call for you about how bad a problem that is. Still, it sounds like you might be happy if your wife found a way to address her depression or at least address some of her sexual issues. And I think it's wrong to allow her to have sex with you at all, if she doesn't know you're also doing it with someone else, so I hope at least you just stop doing it with her.
You said that she would be unable to handle the affair if it were in the open. What makes you think nobody will ever discover the affair? All the things you fear could happen then, regardless. Personally, I'm opposed to cheating, but I can't make the moral call for you about how bad a problem that is. Still, it sounds like you might be happy if your wife found a way to address her depression or at least address some of her sexual issues. And I think it's wrong to allow her to have sex with you at all, if she doesn't know you're also doing it with someone else, so I hope at least you just stop doing it with her.
178
I think she should have sex with Dan.
That would work wonders and destroy two marriages at the same time.
That would work wonders and destroy two marriages at the same time.
179
I havent really been following the debate but dont really understand the problem. It seems that, throughout life, you have a number of options. Remain a cheerful individualist, content on your own, screwing as you please. Get involved in an open reltionship and accept the social positives of marriage while screwing as you please. Get married 'conventially' and forgoe the random fuck. Get tired of this arrangement and divorce, accepting the negative consequences of being divorced and alone in your middle and old age.
Perhaps Dan, and as I said I havent been following this but I love the man, is talking about the moral outrage that greets each new public case of cheating? Sure this is tiring but so are a number of our media led campaigns on morality. It boils down to a personal opinion approaching each case on its merits. Not every cheater is the same and context is vital. I honestly dont see what the controversy is about. Douchehat is a clown and should not be entertained.
As for the query above this man should obviously be allowed visit a prostitute. It is the perfect option as although there might be a slight possibility of him 'falling in love' with his call girl, theres no chance of it being reciprocated. This Iv found (not neccessarily through experience but instead conversations and hard boiled tv shows) to be the case
ps apologies for spelling mistakes and general incomprehension but im rushing this
Perhaps Dan, and as I said I havent been following this but I love the man, is talking about the moral outrage that greets each new public case of cheating? Sure this is tiring but so are a number of our media led campaigns on morality. It boils down to a personal opinion approaching each case on its merits. Not every cheater is the same and context is vital. I honestly dont see what the controversy is about. Douchehat is a clown and should not be entertained.
As for the query above this man should obviously be allowed visit a prostitute. It is the perfect option as although there might be a slight possibility of him 'falling in love' with his call girl, theres no chance of it being reciprocated. This Iv found (not neccessarily through experience but instead conversations and hard boiled tv shows) to be the case
ps apologies for spelling mistakes and general incomprehension but im rushing this
180
I havent really been following the debate but dont really get the problem. It seems that, throughout life, you have a number of options. Remain a cheerful individualist, happy on your own, screwing as you please. Get involved in an open relationship and accept the social positives of marriage while screwing as you please. Get married 'conventially' and forgo the random fuck. Get tired of this arrangement and divorce, accepting the negative consequences of being divorced and alone in your middle and old age.
Perhaps Dan, and as I said I havent been following this but I love the man, is talking about the moral outrage that greets each new public case of cheating? Sure this is tiring but so are a number of our media led campaigns. It boils down to a personal opinion approaching each case on its merits. Not every cheater is the same and context is vital. I honestly dont see what the controversy is about. Douchehat is a clown and should not be entertained.
As for the query above this man should obviously be allowed visit a prostitute. It is the perfect option as although there might be a slight possibility of him 'falling in love' with his call girl, theres no chance of it being reciprocated. This Iv found (not neccessarily through experience but instead conversations and hard boiled tv shows) to be the case
ps apologies for spelling mistakes and general incomprehension but im rushing this
Perhaps Dan, and as I said I havent been following this but I love the man, is talking about the moral outrage that greets each new public case of cheating? Sure this is tiring but so are a number of our media led campaigns. It boils down to a personal opinion approaching each case on its merits. Not every cheater is the same and context is vital. I honestly dont see what the controversy is about. Douchehat is a clown and should not be entertained.
As for the query above this man should obviously be allowed visit a prostitute. It is the perfect option as although there might be a slight possibility of him 'falling in love' with his call girl, theres no chance of it being reciprocated. This Iv found (not neccessarily through experience but instead conversations and hard boiled tv shows) to be the case
ps apologies for spelling mistakes and general incomprehension but im rushing this
181
Speaking as a woman with a chronic illness, who is often in pain, who often feels like crap, and has some legitimate cause to feel less attractive than I'd like, I feel almost no sympathy for this guy's wife.
If there's one thing I've learned during these years of being dependent on others, it's that you have to give back in other ways! If you need others to care for you, you have to make them feel cared for in return, however you can; you can't just be this black hole of need and grimness. The temptation is there, sometimes. Sometimes it is an effort to smile and say something loving, but you have to make that effort, for yourself as well as the others in your life.
And I call *total bullshit* on the whole, "I'm well enough to hold a job and do ordinary things but far too sick to fuck you," thing. She may indeed be depressed, and possibly she has other emotional issues, but one thing she certainly is is colossally selfish.
And short-sighted. Because a loving sexual relationship is not only entirely possible--it's can be the one thing that makes a life of chronic illness worth living. Orgasms relieve pain! And when you make the effort to be loving, you make yourself feel better. You are putting money in a bank that will pay you back richly in endorphins and well-being.
I would never have imagined this when I was young and healthy, but I'm now in the happiest and most fulfilling relationship of my life, and it's partly because I have consistently made the effort to give back to my partner both sexually and in other ways.
We've now built up such a storehouse of love and good will that I honestly feel better just being in the same room with him. if I am in pain, he can relieve it just by resting his hand on my back. And a nice trip to the sack can pull me out of a nasty flare of my illness.
I don't know what possessed the LW to sacrifice his youth to this travesty of a marriage, but it does seem to me that his wife got where she is by consistently making that other choice, the choice to huddle inward, to, as John Gottmann says, "turn away rather than turn toward."
That is just so sad, and makes me feel incredibly grateful for what I have. And I have it because I made the effort.
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If there's one thing I've learned during these years of being dependent on others, it's that you have to give back in other ways! If you need others to care for you, you have to make them feel cared for in return, however you can; you can't just be this black hole of need and grimness. The temptation is there, sometimes. Sometimes it is an effort to smile and say something loving, but you have to make that effort, for yourself as well as the others in your life.
And I call *total bullshit* on the whole, "I'm well enough to hold a job and do ordinary things but far too sick to fuck you," thing. She may indeed be depressed, and possibly she has other emotional issues, but one thing she certainly is is colossally selfish.
And short-sighted. Because a loving sexual relationship is not only entirely possible--it's can be the one thing that makes a life of chronic illness worth living. Orgasms relieve pain! And when you make the effort to be loving, you make yourself feel better. You are putting money in a bank that will pay you back richly in endorphins and well-being.
I would never have imagined this when I was young and healthy, but I'm now in the happiest and most fulfilling relationship of my life, and it's partly because I have consistently made the effort to give back to my partner both sexually and in other ways.
We've now built up such a storehouse of love and good will that I honestly feel better just being in the same room with him. if I am in pain, he can relieve it just by resting his hand on my back. And a nice trip to the sack can pull me out of a nasty flare of my illness.
I don't know what possessed the LW to sacrifice his youth to this travesty of a marriage, but it does seem to me that his wife got where she is by consistently making that other choice, the choice to huddle inward, to, as John Gottmann says, "turn away rather than turn toward."
That is just so sad, and makes me feel incredibly grateful for what I have. And I have it because I made the effort.
182
@133: "Hold your wife while you masturbate. Don't ask. Just do it"
Yeah, that's not going to work at all.
Yeah, that's not going to work at all.
183
I have only read up to comment 75, so I don't know if anyone after that said this but people need to wake up. Hasn't it been blazingly obvious for centuries that most relationships fail around sexual issues? Why isn't everyone taking this into account when creating their marriage vows? Yes, there is a boilerplate vow with the whole "til death do us part" and the "better or worse", but that is not the only one available. You can make up your own. Mine was that we would support each other toward fulfillment of our life goals until it was time to move on. Perfectly valid marriage vow. When it was time to move on, we both knew and we did. We are still friends and in even better relationships. It's time to stop living in the dark ages!
184
I think Dan punted a little on this one. I'd go back to something he preaches a lot: Prizing honesty over monogamy.
Shouldn't this guy just be honest, even if it means divorce?
First, it seems pretty clear that he's not going to get sex at home. So, then he decides whether that's a dealbreaker. Of course, easier said than done. If it isn't, then he's making a conscious sacrifice to stay together. If it is a dealbreaker, then he has to go to her and say:
"Honey, I love you - as much now as I did when we first got married. And I value our marriage over everything in my life. But I'm also a person, and I periodically need intimacy and sexual pleasure. And, that hasn't been part of our marriage for a long, long time. I want to figure something out, and I need you to tell me what you want, and don't want. And we'll take it from there."
At the very least he's confronting the issue. If she says "no sex" then he has to decide what to do with that information - cheat or leave. But, as it is right now, he's stuck in limbo and the burden is still on him as he has begrudgingly accepted this situation for years...
Shouldn't this guy just be honest, even if it means divorce?
First, it seems pretty clear that he's not going to get sex at home. So, then he decides whether that's a dealbreaker. Of course, easier said than done. If it isn't, then he's making a conscious sacrifice to stay together. If it is a dealbreaker, then he has to go to her and say:
"Honey, I love you - as much now as I did when we first got married. And I value our marriage over everything in my life. But I'm also a person, and I periodically need intimacy and sexual pleasure. And, that hasn't been part of our marriage for a long, long time. I want to figure something out, and I need you to tell me what you want, and don't want. And we'll take it from there."
At the very least he's confronting the issue. If she says "no sex" then he has to decide what to do with that information - cheat or leave. But, as it is right now, he's stuck in limbo and the burden is still on him as he has begrudgingly accepted this situation for years...
185
I think Dan punted a little on this one. I'd go back to something he preaches a lot: Prizing honesty over monogamy.
Shouldn't this guy just be honest, even if it means divorce?
First, it seems pretty clear that he's not going to get sex at home. So, then he decides whether that's a dealbreaker. Of course, easier said than done. If it isn't a dealbreaker, then he's making a conscious sacrifice to stay together. If it is a dealbreaker, then he has to go to her and say:
"Honey, I love you - as much now as I did when we first got married. And I value our marriage over everything in my life. But I'm also a person, and I periodically need intimacy and sexual pleasure. And, that hasn't been part of our marriage for a long, long time. I want to figure something out, and I need you to tell me what you want, and don't want. And we'll take it from there."
At the very least he's confronting the issue. If she says "no sex" then he has to decide what to do with that information - cheat or leave. But, as it is right now, he's stuck in limbo and the burden is still on him as he has begrudgingly accepted this situation for years...
Shouldn't this guy just be honest, even if it means divorce?
First, it seems pretty clear that he's not going to get sex at home. So, then he decides whether that's a dealbreaker. Of course, easier said than done. If it isn't a dealbreaker, then he's making a conscious sacrifice to stay together. If it is a dealbreaker, then he has to go to her and say:
"Honey, I love you - as much now as I did when we first got married. And I value our marriage over everything in my life. But I'm also a person, and I periodically need intimacy and sexual pleasure. And, that hasn't been part of our marriage for a long, long time. I want to figure something out, and I need you to tell me what you want, and don't want. And we'll take it from there."
At the very least he's confronting the issue. If she says "no sex" then he has to decide what to do with that information - cheat or leave. But, as it is right now, he's stuck in limbo and the burden is still on him as he has begrudgingly accepted this situation for years...
186
Um...which part of "for better or worse, richer or poorer, in sickness and in health, till death do you part" did you not mean?
Marriage is life--you're not very likely to have sex when you're 90; you're not likely to have sex when you're 80. That, in your case, sex stopped before you were 40--oh, well. You're married--act like an adult, not like some rutting antelope who is so overwhelmed by his testosterone level that he is incapable of, you know, living up to his commitments.
(And if the words, "that's easy for you to say..." are poised on your lips--I'm in a very similar boat. When I stood up in front of the entire community and pledged my troth I said what I meant--and I meant what I said. That meant good parts of marriage, and disappointing aspects of marriage. That's life.)
Marriage is life--you're not very likely to have sex when you're 90; you're not likely to have sex when you're 80. That, in your case, sex stopped before you were 40--oh, well. You're married--act like an adult, not like some rutting antelope who is so overwhelmed by his testosterone level that he is incapable of, you know, living up to his commitments.
(And if the words, "that's easy for you to say..." are poised on your lips--I'm in a very similar boat. When I stood up in front of the entire community and pledged my troth I said what I meant--and I meant what I said. That meant good parts of marriage, and disappointing aspects of marriage. That's life.)
187
Perhaps we can address all these sexless marriages by reconsidering our interpretations of marriage vows.
The fidelity quid pro quo is not "I won't have sex with anyone else, and in exchange you won't have sex with anyone else." Rather, it's "I will have sex with you, which opens up a lot of risks like heartbreak, STDs, and pregnancy. So in exchange, you won't have sex with anyone else." After all, I have a right to know the bedroom activities of people I'm fucking. I have no right to know the bedroom activities of people I'm not fucking. And it's not entirely clear why marriage would change that calculus.
So if one spouse refuses to have sex ever, they've broken their marriage vows just as surely as a cheating spouse would have. In fact, it's the exact same vow, just different sides of the agreement. The sex-deprived spouse is the wronged party, and they get to choose what to do with the marriage. As with adultery, they are perfectly within their rights to end the marriage, both legally and ethically.
But. The wronged spouse doesn't have to end the marriage. They can try to salvage it by asking their partner to make some changes. And if their partner refuses to change, then divorce may be the only opinion.
tl;dr: Sex denied spouses are just as wronged as spouses who were cheated on. They should be treated the same both legally and socially. That means being entitled to a divorce, or making strong demands that the other partner must fulfill in order to save the marriage.
The fidelity quid pro quo is not "I won't have sex with anyone else, and in exchange you won't have sex with anyone else." Rather, it's "I will have sex with you, which opens up a lot of risks like heartbreak, STDs, and pregnancy. So in exchange, you won't have sex with anyone else." After all, I have a right to know the bedroom activities of people I'm fucking. I have no right to know the bedroom activities of people I'm not fucking. And it's not entirely clear why marriage would change that calculus.
So if one spouse refuses to have sex ever, they've broken their marriage vows just as surely as a cheating spouse would have. In fact, it's the exact same vow, just different sides of the agreement. The sex-deprived spouse is the wronged party, and they get to choose what to do with the marriage. As with adultery, they are perfectly within their rights to end the marriage, both legally and ethically.
But. The wronged spouse doesn't have to end the marriage. They can try to salvage it by asking their partner to make some changes. And if their partner refuses to change, then divorce may be the only opinion.
tl;dr: Sex denied spouses are just as wronged as spouses who were cheated on. They should be treated the same both legally and socially. That means being entitled to a divorce, or making strong demands that the other partner must fulfill in order to save the marriage.
188
I think this is really THE scenario in which very discreet, occasional cheating is the humane solution.
189
Hi @170,
Sometimes the answers are easy: plan more weekend trips, sometimes not: find a good therapist to advise, console, and referee you(all). In our case hurdle one: we're screamers. So, spontaneity is pretty much out. So plan for afternoons where all the kids are safely (far) away at some event, and have fun. Hurdle two: my wife is a squirter. That lovely development came out when we were on vacation trying for kid #2. (I always knew she was holding something back no matter how out of control she got. She thought she was going to pee, and couldn't stand to let go. There I was face covered in not revulsion, but awe (and a good healthy jet really is awesome) and dripping liquid, and things have been even better since). So plan for keeping a few beach towels handy while the kids are out. Make it a game and keep it fun, just like all the dates you're having (hint, dates with the kids can work too).
I would be the first to admit it is almost impossible to get awesome mind blowing sex with regularity, while the kids are just down the hall. But, to use a food metaphor, Lobster everyday would start to lose it's magic, and when you need it, nothing is better than good comfy food. Work out what you need, then on what you want. I hope that you get everything you wish for!
@188: Thank you for your message.
Sometimes the answers are easy: plan more weekend trips, sometimes not: find a good therapist to advise, console, and referee you(all). In our case hurdle one: we're screamers. So, spontaneity is pretty much out. So plan for afternoons where all the kids are safely (far) away at some event, and have fun. Hurdle two: my wife is a squirter. That lovely development came out when we were on vacation trying for kid #2. (I always knew she was holding something back no matter how out of control she got. She thought she was going to pee, and couldn't stand to let go. There I was face covered in not revulsion, but awe (and a good healthy jet really is awesome) and dripping liquid, and things have been even better since). So plan for keeping a few beach towels handy while the kids are out. Make it a game and keep it fun, just like all the dates you're having (hint, dates with the kids can work too).
I would be the first to admit it is almost impossible to get awesome mind blowing sex with regularity, while the kids are just down the hall. But, to use a food metaphor, Lobster everyday would start to lose it's magic, and when you need it, nothing is better than good comfy food. Work out what you need, then on what you want. I hope that you get everything you wish for!
@188: Thank you for your message.
190
@186: "Um...which part of "for better or worse, richer or poorer, in sickness and in health, till death do you part" did you not mean?"
The part where we're not ancient Catholics and a worse marriage is grounds for divorce without social sanction.
Marriages that only end in misery should not be. The problem is not that she's sick or just that he's not getting off, but that she's not meeting ANY of his romantic needs.
The part where we're not ancient Catholics and a worse marriage is grounds for divorce without social sanction.
Marriages that only end in misery should not be. The problem is not that she's sick or just that he's not getting off, but that she's not meeting ANY of his romantic needs.
191
Speaking from very personal and related experience: he simply must be more honest with her. I know he's tried counseling before, but he should schedule new sessions with new marriage counselors and work on the communication aspect first. Having a third party and neutral ground to clear these issues can help a lot.
Marriage always requires compromises. Sometimes its about sex. Sometimes its about kids, or work, or where to live and so on. This all means that marriage is not easy and there will be strains between partners. That strain can only be overcome if the two can communicate and cooperate. If not, his unacknowledged sacrifice will slowly destroy the love and faith that keeps the marriage alive for him.
Just being honest doesn't mean things will work out, but it is the only path forward to any chance of happiness. Coming from someone who wasn't honest early enough and caused heartbreak, pain and loss for all, I can't stress the importance enough.
Marriage always requires compromises. Sometimes its about sex. Sometimes its about kids, or work, or where to live and so on. This all means that marriage is not easy and there will be strains between partners. That strain can only be overcome if the two can communicate and cooperate. If not, his unacknowledged sacrifice will slowly destroy the love and faith that keeps the marriage alive for him.
Just being honest doesn't mean things will work out, but it is the only path forward to any chance of happiness. Coming from someone who wasn't honest early enough and caused heartbreak, pain and loss for all, I can't stress the importance enough.
192
We are only hearing HALF of this story.
It is possible (and likely) that he's not telling all he knows.
It is even more likely that he doesn't know everything. Maybe she IS having sex with someone else. This kind of thing happens, and happens all the time. It could be that he is no good in bed. It could be that he is GREAT in bed, and she can't handle it, and needs someone who is no good.
Yes - her unwillingness to discuss it is CLEAR emotional abuse.
Yes - it is possible, and VERY likely that all the counseling and therapy they have tried did not work, and in all probability, no amount of counseling in the future will work. You can't FORCE someone into mental health, and honest, open communication, especially if their manipulative, controlling, parasitic situation is working for them. (on the other hand, he might try some individual counseling to help him deal with this situation).
Usually, abuse victims are unwilling to accept that there is abuse going on. They often will defend their abusers, and the behavior. You see it all over this guy's post.
Yes - they should divorce.
Yes - divorce laws; family law, makes this pretty much a horrible choice for everyone involved.
Yes - she may be financially dependent upon him, and in most states, will probably remain so. (no matter how horribly she is abusing him, emotionally).
Yes - it's possible that she "stacked it" that way, on purpose, because she is too emotionally incapable of independence. (it is easier to manipulate someone into taking care of her, than it is to take on the hard work of taking care of herself).
OR - it is possible that he is financially dependent upon her. These dependent situations are really not healthy marriages to begin with. That's NOT a reason to be married. That's a reason to become financially independent.
The other question I have for HIM is:
Time is running out? Why do you feel you have to have x-amount of sex before you die? Is it some kind of game? Is somebody keeping score? Seriously people. I mean - I too, have a huge sex drive, (and a partner with. . . . issues). But, is sex really THAT important?
Think about what you're REALLY missing. It's not the SEX. It's the INTIMACY. It's the closeness that you would have with a sex-partner. If you start having sex with someone else, you're going to start having that closeness with someone else. Your marriage certainly WILL suffer. There is no doubt. (It's already suffering though - because the wife is shutting him out, because she is terrified of physical intimacy - vaginal penetration, pain, is just the excuse. She won't even give the poor guy a hand job! She won't even accept him telling her she's pretty!).
This is why I believe that Monogamy IS natural, and IS important, and IS necessary. But what is also necessary, is the ability to eject from a relationship that is crashing and burning, without having to suffer ongoing lifelong punishment (in the form of spousal support) - just because some people are able to fake intimacy just long enough to get married, and squirt out a kid, and then throw up walls because they're too inhibited and damaged to allow any personal closeness.
More...
It is possible (and likely) that he's not telling all he knows.
It is even more likely that he doesn't know everything. Maybe she IS having sex with someone else. This kind of thing happens, and happens all the time. It could be that he is no good in bed. It could be that he is GREAT in bed, and she can't handle it, and needs someone who is no good.
Yes - her unwillingness to discuss it is CLEAR emotional abuse.
Yes - it is possible, and VERY likely that all the counseling and therapy they have tried did not work, and in all probability, no amount of counseling in the future will work. You can't FORCE someone into mental health, and honest, open communication, especially if their manipulative, controlling, parasitic situation is working for them. (on the other hand, he might try some individual counseling to help him deal with this situation).
Usually, abuse victims are unwilling to accept that there is abuse going on. They often will defend their abusers, and the behavior. You see it all over this guy's post.
Yes - they should divorce.
Yes - divorce laws; family law, makes this pretty much a horrible choice for everyone involved.
Yes - she may be financially dependent upon him, and in most states, will probably remain so. (no matter how horribly she is abusing him, emotionally).
Yes - it's possible that she "stacked it" that way, on purpose, because she is too emotionally incapable of independence. (it is easier to manipulate someone into taking care of her, than it is to take on the hard work of taking care of herself).
OR - it is possible that he is financially dependent upon her. These dependent situations are really not healthy marriages to begin with. That's NOT a reason to be married. That's a reason to become financially independent.
The other question I have for HIM is:
Time is running out? Why do you feel you have to have x-amount of sex before you die? Is it some kind of game? Is somebody keeping score? Seriously people. I mean - I too, have a huge sex drive, (and a partner with. . . . issues). But, is sex really THAT important?
Think about what you're REALLY missing. It's not the SEX. It's the INTIMACY. It's the closeness that you would have with a sex-partner. If you start having sex with someone else, you're going to start having that closeness with someone else. Your marriage certainly WILL suffer. There is no doubt. (It's already suffering though - because the wife is shutting him out, because she is terrified of physical intimacy - vaginal penetration, pain, is just the excuse. She won't even give the poor guy a hand job! She won't even accept him telling her she's pretty!).
This is why I believe that Monogamy IS natural, and IS important, and IS necessary. But what is also necessary, is the ability to eject from a relationship that is crashing and burning, without having to suffer ongoing lifelong punishment (in the form of spousal support) - just because some people are able to fake intimacy just long enough to get married, and squirt out a kid, and then throw up walls because they're too inhibited and damaged to allow any personal closeness.
193
We are only hearing HALF of this story.
It is possible (and likely) that he's not telling all he knows.
It is even more likely that he doesn't know everything. Maybe she IS having sex with someone else. This kind of thing happens, and happens all the time. It could be that he is no good in bed. It could be that he is GREAT in bed, and she can't handle it, and needs someone who is no good.
Yes - her unwillingness to discuss it is CLEAR emotional abuse.
Yes - it is possible, and VERY likely that all the counseling and therapy they have tried did not work, and in all probability, no amount of counseling in the future will work. You can't FORCE someone into mental health, and honest, open communication, especially if their manipulative, controlling, parasitic situation is working for them. (on the other hand, he might try some individual counseling to help him deal with this situation).
Usually, abuse victims are unwilling to accept that there is abuse going on. They often will defend their abusers, and the behavior. You see it all over this guy's post.
Yes - they should divorce.
Yes - divorce laws; family law, makes this pretty much a horrible choice for everyone involved.
Yes - she may be financially dependent upon him, and in most states, will probably remain so. (no matter how horribly she is abusing him, emotionally).
Yes - it's possible that she "stacked it" that way, on purpose, because she is too emotionally incapable of independence. (it is easier to manipulate someone into taking care of her, than it is to take on the hard work of taking care of herself).
OR - it is possible that he is financially dependent upon her. These dependent situations are really not healthy marriages to begin with. That's NOT a reason to be married. That's a reason to become financially independent.
The other question I have for HIM is:
Time is running out? Why do you feel you have to have x-amount of sex before you die? Is it some kind of game? Is somebody keeping score? Seriously people. I mean - I too, have a huge sex drive, (and a partner with. . . . issues). But, is sex really THAT important?
Think about what you're REALLY missing. It's not the SEX. It's the INTIMACY. It's the closeness that you would have with a sex-partner. If you start having sex with someone else, you're going to start having that closeness with someone else. Your marriage certainly WILL suffer. There is no doubt. (It's already suffering though - because the wife is shutting him out, because she is terrified of physical intimacy - vaginal penetration, pain, is just the excuse. She won't even give the poor guy a hand job! She won't even accept him telling her she's pretty!).
This is why I believe that Monogamy IS natural, and IS important, and IS necessary. But what is also necessary, is the ability to eject from a relationship that is crashing and burning, without having to suffer ongoing lifelong punishment (in the form of spousal support) - just because some people are able to fake intimacy just long enough to get married, and squirt out a kid, and then throw up walls because they're too inhibited and damaged to allow any personal closeness.
More...
It is possible (and likely) that he's not telling all he knows.
It is even more likely that he doesn't know everything. Maybe she IS having sex with someone else. This kind of thing happens, and happens all the time. It could be that he is no good in bed. It could be that he is GREAT in bed, and she can't handle it, and needs someone who is no good.
Yes - her unwillingness to discuss it is CLEAR emotional abuse.
Yes - it is possible, and VERY likely that all the counseling and therapy they have tried did not work, and in all probability, no amount of counseling in the future will work. You can't FORCE someone into mental health, and honest, open communication, especially if their manipulative, controlling, parasitic situation is working for them. (on the other hand, he might try some individual counseling to help him deal with this situation).
Usually, abuse victims are unwilling to accept that there is abuse going on. They often will defend their abusers, and the behavior. You see it all over this guy's post.
Yes - they should divorce.
Yes - divorce laws; family law, makes this pretty much a horrible choice for everyone involved.
Yes - she may be financially dependent upon him, and in most states, will probably remain so. (no matter how horribly she is abusing him, emotionally).
Yes - it's possible that she "stacked it" that way, on purpose, because she is too emotionally incapable of independence. (it is easier to manipulate someone into taking care of her, than it is to take on the hard work of taking care of herself).
OR - it is possible that he is financially dependent upon her. These dependent situations are really not healthy marriages to begin with. That's NOT a reason to be married. That's a reason to become financially independent.
The other question I have for HIM is:
Time is running out? Why do you feel you have to have x-amount of sex before you die? Is it some kind of game? Is somebody keeping score? Seriously people. I mean - I too, have a huge sex drive, (and a partner with. . . . issues). But, is sex really THAT important?
Think about what you're REALLY missing. It's not the SEX. It's the INTIMACY. It's the closeness that you would have with a sex-partner. If you start having sex with someone else, you're going to start having that closeness with someone else. Your marriage certainly WILL suffer. There is no doubt. (It's already suffering though - because the wife is shutting him out, because she is terrified of physical intimacy - vaginal penetration, pain, is just the excuse. She won't even give the poor guy a hand job! She won't even accept him telling her she's pretty!).
This is why I believe that Monogamy IS natural, and IS important, and IS necessary. But what is also necessary, is the ability to eject from a relationship that is crashing and burning, without having to suffer ongoing lifelong punishment (in the form of spousal support) - just because some people are able to fake intimacy just long enough to get married, and squirt out a kid, and then throw up walls because they're too inhibited and damaged to allow any personal closeness.
194
@171/189 - re the impossibility of having sex when the kids might hear.
I don't see this as a problem, but I'd be interested to hear what others think. We used to act that way, but in the aftermath of our big marital shake-up, now we have sex whenever we want it and we're both home, morning noon or night. We have a lock on the bedroom door, and we try to keep the moans low if the kids are awake, but I don't think there are any rules that say children should not hear their parents having sex. Do other people think that's outrageous?
I don't see this as a problem, but I'd be interested to hear what others think. We used to act that way, but in the aftermath of our big marital shake-up, now we have sex whenever we want it and we're both home, morning noon or night. We have a lock on the bedroom door, and we try to keep the moans low if the kids are awake, but I don't think there are any rules that say children should not hear their parents having sex. Do other people think that's outrageous?
195
@194: You raise an interesting point. My initial response was that children shouldn't hear their parents having sex, but on reflection I cannot think on any good reason to support that. One of my roommates heard his parents having sex-- constantly-- throughout his childhood, and didn't realize that was uncommon until he got to college. He certainly wasn't horribly scarred by it; if anything, he learned early on that a healthy relationship involves lots and lots of sex.
Hell, maybe the college "hook up" rules should apply in family homes as well. When kids see a tie/sock/whatever on the bedroom door handle, they know the parents are having sex and they should come back later.
My mind, it has expanded.
Hell, maybe the college "hook up" rules should apply in family homes as well. When kids see a tie/sock/whatever on the bedroom door handle, they know the parents are having sex and they should come back later.
My mind, it has expanded.
196
@195: "My initial response was that children shouldn't hear their parents having sex"
In ye olden days, there was little privacy and kids would be in the same room. I don't think it's THAT weird.
In ye olden days, there was little privacy and kids would be in the same room. I don't think it's THAT weird.
197
@196: That's kinda the point of my little story. What we consider "normal" is just whatever we grew up with. Normal for me was never hearing my parents fuck; normal for my roommate was hearing his parents fuck every day. So while my initial response was "thing I am not used to is not OK," some internal dialog convinced me otherwise.
If only the homophobes had a similar thought process.
If only the homophobes had a similar thought process.
198
Sadly, she's been ill for many years, however not to the point where she's not able to work or do many normal activities, but she is in pain, so I can understand her not wanting to have a dick inside her.
... she is very jealous. She takes fidelity very seriously.
Originally, when I'd read this article a couple of hours ago, I had a far sterner comment in mind. But time (and dinner) have mellowed me – a bit.
The problem, LW, is that your wife is the one who has broken the bonds of matrimony. Why would I say that? Well, beyond any discussion of monogamy, I have always believed that the primary focus (or "job", if you will) of a newly-married couple should be on each other and on the relationship. Note I didn't mention sex there; but, unless the couple has a prior agreement (re asexuality or other idiosyncracies), sex is generally considered to be part of the contract as well as a willingness to be GGG.
But sex hasn't been part of your contract for the majority of your marriage. Yet, your wife honours her obligation to her place of employment (even if it's not a stereotypical "married to the job" identity), so that appears to be her primary focus. But can you imagine her crying at work if she were confronted with an inadequate aspect of her job performance? No, because that would not be professional. Yet that is her first line of defence when dealing with your differences whenever you try to discuss them.
I'd also say that, as she has said in no uncertain terms that she will not tolerate your straying, there appear to be hints of a dominant-submissive vibe (except for the matter of the tears, but IMO that's an adjunct to her demand for compliance).
What can you try to do? You can try different counselors, also a sex therapist. Because, like another commenter pointed out, sex creates good feelings, if not orgasms then certainly endorphins which – surprise – mask pain. It's always worked for me when I'm in too much pain to attempt even a simple chore but the prospect of sex later perks me up considerably and the benefits linger long afterwards. That's why I find it peculiar that she will expend energy on work and other peripheral activities but not on ANY type of sexual activity with you.
What else? Change the rules of the marriage. This may be heavy-handed, but you could give her an ultimatum to stop working and use the energy that's dissipated throughout the day on other people into repairing the obvious hole in the bond between you.
If she remains closed to changing her attitude and behaviours, then you probably should divorce her (emotionally, though not legally) and go out to live your life anew with the prospect of finding intimacy and sexual satisfaction. But, before you do that, you work out a new contract by which you will take care of her financially (should she need it) and provide for her health care, so that she cannot claim that you have abandoned her. Because she already abandoned you years ago.
Even if this is the ultimate destination for your marriage, there's no reason why you cannot remain amicable. But you should not have to endure her irrational restrictions.
Honestly, I can't imagine being in such a situation for 18 years. I hope you will find some resolution to the emptiness within you.
199
On an unrelated note, but amusing to think about whether children should be aware of their parents fucking. If they were aware, then they couldn't have much justification for freaking out and going "Ewww" should they catch their parents doing so much as kissing. ::rolls eyes::
And it would do a lot to heighten sex positivity in society and shatter the notion that OLD people (OMG, like super gross) don't do THAT THING any more.
And it would do a lot to heighten sex positivity in society and shatter the notion that OLD people (OMG, like super gross) don't do THAT THING any more.
200
Hi @194,@195,
We do have quiet cuddling sex 3-5 times a week, it just isn't full on lose ourself in ecstasy mode. And when I said we're screamers I mean LOUD (as in the neighbors can hear us on a good throw, with the windows closed).
Point of etiquette? How should one respond to someone pounding on the wall (during the middle of the day) in a ship/hotel while you are celebrating your marriage? The people next cabin to us had turned up their stereo to the point we had difficulty talking, so we pounded on the wall. We didn't understand why they had the music so loud until they pounded on the wall while we pounded each other. As it was, we laughed about it and carried on more quietly...
Just thinking about that incident, and the great sex we had watching the islands of the Alaskan interior passage going by, makes me so glad I took the gamble of monogamy. It's like hetero sex, I simply can't fathom doing it any other way. All I can do is hope for that kind of joy for as many people as possible, in any way they are able to receive it. (Just don't pound on our wall, and we won't pound on yours)
Peace.
We do have quiet cuddling sex 3-5 times a week, it just isn't full on lose ourself in ecstasy mode. And when I said we're screamers I mean LOUD (as in the neighbors can hear us on a good throw, with the windows closed).
Point of etiquette? How should one respond to someone pounding on the wall (during the middle of the day) in a ship/hotel while you are celebrating your marriage? The people next cabin to us had turned up their stereo to the point we had difficulty talking, so we pounded on the wall. We didn't understand why they had the music so loud until they pounded on the wall while we pounded each other. As it was, we laughed about it and carried on more quietly...
Just thinking about that incident, and the great sex we had watching the islands of the Alaskan interior passage going by, makes me so glad I took the gamble of monogamy. It's like hetero sex, I simply can't fathom doing it any other way. All I can do is hope for that kind of joy for as many people as possible, in any way they are able to receive it. (Just don't pound on our wall, and we won't pound on yours)
Peace.
201
Even though I believe it wrong in general, this is why I am opposed to banning abortion. Moral judgments should/must left to the individual. At the same time I am offended by those who trivialize the taking of a human life. I also support the death penalty, so I'm not a liberal or conservative hypocrite on the issue. I believe people need to be morally consistent. I also believe that if people choose to be sexually active they have an obligation (to themselves, society, God, whatever) to take responsibility for the consequences of being sexually active. Abortion should not be a simple option for those who failed or were unwilling to take precaution. Given the high cost of pregnancy, contraceptive implants should be mandatory for everyone. It also addresses the real cause of climate change, too many frigging people.
There will always be tragic specific circumstances that illustrate the problems with the general and inflexible application of any principle or belief. The LW needs to have a heart to heart with his wife. I know how difficult this would be for me and a lot of people. Excluding BDSM enthusiasts, who wants to intentionally hurt those you love. He needs to really and truly tell her how much he loves, needs, wants, and desires her and doesn't want anyone else. That he understands her health problems and doesn't blame her for them. That he wants to stay married to her and remain faithful, but he is being torn apart by the conflict between those feelings and his (natural) physical needs for sex and intimacy. That it has reached a point where he just can't continue to live like this and that something has to be done about the situation. Justifiable cheating does not appear to be a viable solution.
There will always be tragic specific circumstances that illustrate the problems with the general and inflexible application of any principle or belief. The LW needs to have a heart to heart with his wife. I know how difficult this would be for me and a lot of people. Excluding BDSM enthusiasts, who wants to intentionally hurt those you love. He needs to really and truly tell her how much he loves, needs, wants, and desires her and doesn't want anyone else. That he understands her health problems and doesn't blame her for them. That he wants to stay married to her and remain faithful, but he is being torn apart by the conflict between those feelings and his (natural) physical needs for sex and intimacy. That it has reached a point where he just can't continue to live like this and that something has to be done about the situation. Justifiable cheating does not appear to be a viable solution.
202
I'm not a monogamust, but the guy chose to get married to this woman. He ostensibly vowed to her that he'd stick with her thick or thin. She can sincerely allow him to have sex outside their marriage or he should just abandon his entire promise to her altogether. Cheat behind her back or divorce her; it's all the same.
I'm making no moral judgement on having sex with anyone he wants. I'm making an ethical one. A promise is a promise. If you can't keep the promise don't get married.
I'm making no moral judgement on having sex with anyone he wants. I'm making an ethical one. A promise is a promise. If you can't keep the promise don't get married.
203
@202: A promise to not have sex with other people includes a promise to have sex with your spouse. It's actually a fairly typical agreement known as an Exclusivity Contract (or Exclusivity Clause).
For instance, if I agree to make you my exclusive supplier of widgets, that's contingent on you actually selling me widgets. If you stop delivering widgets, you broke the contract and I get to look for someone else to provide widgets. It's certainly not the case that I'm required to go out of business in order to uphold the deal.
So if she's not having any kind of sex with him, and she's making no effort to provide some kind of sex, then she broke the promise, and he's ethically free to get a divorce.
I do agree with you though: if you can't keep the promise-- in this case, providing sex to your spouse-- then you shouldn't get married. Or at least not without telling your spouse before the wedding that there will be no sex in the marriage.
For instance, if I agree to make you my exclusive supplier of widgets, that's contingent on you actually selling me widgets. If you stop delivering widgets, you broke the contract and I get to look for someone else to provide widgets. It's certainly not the case that I'm required to go out of business in order to uphold the deal.
So if she's not having any kind of sex with him, and she's making no effort to provide some kind of sex, then she broke the promise, and he's ethically free to get a divorce.
I do agree with you though: if you can't keep the promise-- in this case, providing sex to your spouse-- then you shouldn't get married. Or at least not without telling your spouse before the wedding that there will be no sex in the marriage.
204
Here is just one more instance where the construct of "forever-until death do us part" is unrealistic. That only works when both partners are secure and getting their needs met. Otherwise, what is the point of being in any relationship? He is being emotionally manipulated, but he is also enabling her by allowing himself to be rebuffed whenever she turns on the water-works.
It is the physical intimacy that is lacking for him and physical intimacy can be shared in so many ways, but she has just shut it all down. She may also be sex-negative. Some redefining on her part could help that, if she is willing to be taught how to do it. There could be a well of comfort that could help alleviate her suffering, but she may not have even thought about that way. Is medical marijuana available in her state? The only coping mechanism working for her at this point is avoidance. That is certainly not working for him.
It is the physical intimacy that is lacking for him and physical intimacy can be shared in so many ways, but she has just shut it all down. She may also be sex-negative. Some redefining on her part could help that, if she is willing to be taught how to do it. There could be a well of comfort that could help alleviate her suffering, but she may not have even thought about that way. Is medical marijuana available in her state? The only coping mechanism working for her at this point is avoidance. That is certainly not working for him.
205
Perhaps he should consider going into more formal 'chastity'....wearing a cage and begging her to occasionally (once a month or so) apply a vibrator to his cage to relieve him... Maybe through suggestion and subsequent conversation they can eroticize her non-desire.
206
#52 FTW. This is a relationship problem, not a sex problem. He wants her to want him sexually, and for whatever reason, she is unable or unwilling to want him.
If she's unable, hard as it may be, he needs to move on ... sexuality is part of being a healthy, full human being for him, as it is for most of us.
It's clear he is beginning to believe that she's unable, even while he hopes she's unwilling, and has tried for years to induce her to be willing. Ultimately, he has to figure out the criteria for when he will give up, and start to own responsibility for his own happiness.
What does he want from Dan? Permission to leave? Permission to cheat?
It's hard to know when to leave a relationship like this, I know. The years sort of pile up in a mediocre way, not too happy, not too sad. If he wants to find happiness, he's going to need to shake off his passivity.
FWIW, I don't think this sort of unhappiness in confined to monogamous relationships, nor is it caused by the fidelity ethic within monogamy. One can be unhappy and passive in any type of relationship.
If she's unable, hard as it may be, he needs to move on ... sexuality is part of being a healthy, full human being for him, as it is for most of us.
It's clear he is beginning to believe that she's unable, even while he hopes she's unwilling, and has tried for years to induce her to be willing. Ultimately, he has to figure out the criteria for when he will give up, and start to own responsibility for his own happiness.
What does he want from Dan? Permission to leave? Permission to cheat?
It's hard to know when to leave a relationship like this, I know. The years sort of pile up in a mediocre way, not too happy, not too sad. If he wants to find happiness, he's going to need to shake off his passivity.
FWIW, I don't think this sort of unhappiness in confined to monogamous relationships, nor is it caused by the fidelity ethic within monogamy. One can be unhappy and passive in any type of relationship.
207
Clearly, he needs to suck up his "manly" fear of female tears and talk to his wife.
Start the discussion with, "I cannot go my entire adult life without an interested, responsive sex partner. What will it take for that to be you?"
Note how the obvious implication of that statement is that if it isn't her, it will be someone else, but he is clearly stating an absolute preference for her.
Should she say that there is absolutely nothing that could make her an interested, responsive sex partner, his next step is to ask, "What do I need to do to make you comfortable with my getting my needs met by someone else?" At this point, if her only answer is "divorce" then she will say so. If she's willing to consider other options, then she'll proceed to do so.
If he is sad about the idea of divorce, he should absolutely cry (if he wants to) and say that he loves her and wishes SHE did not wish to divorce HIM. Her response is then the critical factor. If she goes into a shrieky rage, then he needs to be very calm, repeat that he loves her and wants a marriage with her, then move off into Separation Land. If necessary, he can tell all their friends that they'd had a discussion about the state of their marriage and it didn't look like there was much hope, but if she decides she wants him back, she knows where he is. Then let HER file for the actual divorce. Meanwhile, you're separated. Consult a lawyer for information on the necessity of discretion.
Start the discussion with, "I cannot go my entire adult life without an interested, responsive sex partner. What will it take for that to be you?"
Note how the obvious implication of that statement is that if it isn't her, it will be someone else, but he is clearly stating an absolute preference for her.
Should she say that there is absolutely nothing that could make her an interested, responsive sex partner, his next step is to ask, "What do I need to do to make you comfortable with my getting my needs met by someone else?" At this point, if her only answer is "divorce" then she will say so. If she's willing to consider other options, then she'll proceed to do so.
If he is sad about the idea of divorce, he should absolutely cry (if he wants to) and say that he loves her and wishes SHE did not wish to divorce HIM. Her response is then the critical factor. If she goes into a shrieky rage, then he needs to be very calm, repeat that he loves her and wants a marriage with her, then move off into Separation Land. If necessary, he can tell all their friends that they'd had a discussion about the state of their marriage and it didn't look like there was much hope, but if she decides she wants him back, she knows where he is. Then let HER file for the actual divorce. Meanwhile, you're separated. Consult a lawyer for information on the necessity of discretion.
208
I'm in the exact same boat. And I do mean exact.
It's a hard situation because I love her, don't want to leave her, and we are dependent upon one other, physically, emotionally, financially. And yet sex life is zilch and that's not making me happy.
The few times I've considered cheating happily were aborted before I went through with it (suffice to say, every loopy thing you've heard about Craigslist is correct).
Sometimes I wish there was a support network for spouses in this kind of situation, one where the sexual needs could be met with no strings attached; a "fuck buddy" network if you will.
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to vent. I'd love to see you develop the issue on the podcast as I've sometimes thought about calling in regarding this issue.
It's a hard situation because I love her, don't want to leave her, and we are dependent upon one other, physically, emotionally, financially. And yet sex life is zilch and that's not making me happy.
The few times I've considered cheating happily were aborted before I went through with it (suffice to say, every loopy thing you've heard about Craigslist is correct).
Sometimes I wish there was a support network for spouses in this kind of situation, one where the sexual needs could be met with no strings attached; a "fuck buddy" network if you will.
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to vent. I'd love to see you develop the issue on the podcast as I've sometimes thought about calling in regarding this issue.
209
@208 hj1000
"Sometimes I wish there was a support network for spouses in this kind of situation, one where the sexual needs could be met with no strings attached; a "fuck buddy" network if you will."
The strings that matter here are the ones at home, not the ones with a fuck buddy.
"Sometimes I wish there was a support network for spouses in this kind of situation, one where the sexual needs could be met with no strings attached; a "fuck buddy" network if you will."
The strings that matter here are the ones at home, not the ones with a fuck buddy.
210
@208 - "Sometimes I wish there was a support network for spouses in this kind of situation, one where the sexual needs could be met with no strings attached; a "fuck buddy" network if you will."
Isn't that called AshleyMadison.com? No guarantees you won't hurt your wife though.
Also, Mr. hj1000, if you swear that literally, there is no longer any sex between you and your wife, so that you contracting an STD would not put her at risk... I think Dan gives people like you an automatic Get Out of Cheating Free card.
Isn't that called AshleyMadison.com? No guarantees you won't hurt your wife though.
Also, Mr. hj1000, if you swear that literally, there is no longer any sex between you and your wife, so that you contracting an STD would not put her at risk... I think Dan gives people like you an automatic Get Out of Cheating Free card.
211
I read through most of this thread, but I am surprised that it appears that nobody has considered this possibility:
...perhaps the wife is a lesbian?
One thing, however is crystal clear. Monogamy debate aside: this is first and foremost a grotesque failure of communication.
...perhaps the wife is a lesbian?
One thing, however is crystal clear. Monogamy debate aside: this is first and foremost a grotesque failure of communication.
212
I say, she needs testosterone. When I hit age 50, I lost all interest. I went to my doctor; she suggested testosterone cream. A little dab. Oh my god! I called it orgasm cream. Like, I had to have an orgasm, within a few hours, each time I used it. I am single, but was going to a martial arts class. Omg, the men all looked so good! I could have just dragged one into a closet.
So-it turned out--Costco did not know how to compound; when I got retested I had 4 times the testosterone a woman should have. Yes I had a few chin hairs, that needed plucking. But to go from zero desire, zero need for orgasm, to just being on the verge of jumping any man I saw (they smelled really good!).
This must be what it is like to be a teenage guy....
Anyway, she needs a full work up with a doctor that really understands womens' hormones. I bet you anything her testosterone levels are non existent. (Now I take a pharmecutical grade DHEA, which converts naturally to testosterone.
So-it turned out--Costco did not know how to compound; when I got retested I had 4 times the testosterone a woman should have. Yes I had a few chin hairs, that needed plucking. But to go from zero desire, zero need for orgasm, to just being on the verge of jumping any man I saw (they smelled really good!).
This must be what it is like to be a teenage guy....
Anyway, she needs a full work up with a doctor that really understands womens' hormones. I bet you anything her testosterone levels are non existent. (Now I take a pharmecutical grade DHEA, which converts naturally to testosterone.
213
I say, she needs testosterone. When I hit age 50, I lost all interest. I went to my doctor; she suggested testosterone cream. A little dab. Oh my god! I called it orgasm cream. Like, I had to have an orgasm, within a few hours, each time I used it. I am single, but was going to a martial arts class. Omg, the men all looked so good! I could have just dragged one into a closet.
So-it turned out--Costco did not know how to compound; when I got retested I had 4 times the testosterone a woman should have. Yes I had a few chin hairs, that needed plucking. But to go from zero desire, zero need for orgasm, to just being on the verge of jumping any man I saw (they smelled really good!).
This must be what it is like to be a teenage guy....
Anyway, she needs a full work up with a doctor that really understands womens' hormones. I bet you anything her testosterone levels are non existent. (Now I take a pharmecutical grade DHEA, which converts naturally to testosterone.
So-it turned out--Costco did not know how to compound; when I got retested I had 4 times the testosterone a woman should have. Yes I had a few chin hairs, that needed plucking. But to go from zero desire, zero need for orgasm, to just being on the verge of jumping any man I saw (they smelled really good!).
This must be what it is like to be a teenage guy....
Anyway, she needs a full work up with a doctor that really understands womens' hormones. I bet you anything her testosterone levels are non existent. (Now I take a pharmecutical grade DHEA, which converts naturally to testosterone.
214
#213, it doesn't sound like this is a problem with her getting older and needing hormone therapy- the LW doesn't state her age, but says he is 40 is she has been this way for most of their 18 year relationship. I'm assuming their ages are close, or he probably would have mentioned something.
If the problem was ONLY a lack of sex drive on her part, I don't think they would be in the situation. Whatever the case is, their main issue seems to be that this isn't something the wife is willing to work on or even discuss with the LW. She seems content to go without intimacy for most of an 18 year relationship, and expects her husband to be fine with that.
Honestly, I think they just need to get divorced. It sounds like he's tried a lot, she isn't unaware of the problem. He needs to realize that he can love her and still say that he loves himself enough to not stay in the situation.
If the problem was ONLY a lack of sex drive on her part, I don't think they would be in the situation. Whatever the case is, their main issue seems to be that this isn't something the wife is willing to work on or even discuss with the LW. She seems content to go without intimacy for most of an 18 year relationship, and expects her husband to be fine with that.
Honestly, I think they just need to get divorced. It sounds like he's tried a lot, she isn't unaware of the problem. He needs to realize that he can love her and still say that he loves himself enough to not stay in the situation.
216
MS maybe? Chronic back pain? Fibromyalgia? Depression? It could be any number of things, but even so, she needs to make space in her life for intimacy with her husband, or let him find it elsewhere, in my opinion.
217
Several years ago I had come to the end of my rope in a monogamous but sexless marriage to a husband who refused to discuss any possibilities and told me to just get over it. I wrote to Dan. In his infinite wisdom he suggested that I DTMFA. That comment was echoed over and over again by every commenter, so I followed the collective advice and D'd TMFA. And trust me, I thank you all every day for my freedom from that situation. I waited 30 years but the LW doesn't have to. It's never too late.
218
I'm not a strict monogamist (although I'd never cheat on my wife even if she couldn't fuck me--but that's because sex isn't a dealbreaker for me, not because I feel qualified to judge anybody for wanting it) but I think this guy deserves more of the blame than Savage or commenters have allowed. He's been letting this situation go on for years because he is afraid to confront his wife about the sex issue, or divorce her if that's really what's in everybody's best interests. He's not doing her any favors by avoiding the confrontation. Sure, she's not making it easy for him. But marriage is a two-way street. So long as you're stuck thinking "look what you made me do" you're never going to ask important questions about the only thing you have control over: your own behavior. This guy needs to ask himself, "what if my wife really won't let me have sex with her or elsewhere?" and if he's willing to stay in the marriage if that's the case. If he can't live with her saying "you can't fuck me or anyone" he knows what to do. Dump The Poor Sick Non-Fucker Already.
-Admiral Obvious, third degree
-Admiral Obvious, third degree
219
Haven't I read and heard over and over again that women think differently than men about sex? From what I understand sex is sex from a man's point of view, but it sure isn't for a woman. Women make a very strong connection between sex and emotion. For women sex includes exposing their vunerablities. I can understand the wife's fear; what if her husband is having sex with another woman and he falls in love? The wife can't help making this kind of connection because, for her, sex and love go hand in hand. I think they need councelling.
Just for the record I don't think society has any business in other peoples bedrooms. Monogomy seems to works for some and for some it doesn't, but I don't think it is any of my business and please don't bring religion into this! Grow-up, have your own personal morale compass, and be accountable for your own actions. Now go off a be a good neighbour ...
Just for the record I don't think society has any business in other peoples bedrooms. Monogomy seems to works for some and for some it doesn't, but I don't think it is any of my business and please don't bring religion into this! Grow-up, have your own personal morale compass, and be accountable for your own actions. Now go off a be a good neighbour ...
221
That woman is selfish bitch if you ask me. He has her issues with sex, an it seem that with any kind of sexual behavior is out of the table, she loves him but doesnt allow him to pursue a healthy sexual life, witch is a very important part of our life, she blackmails him with guilt, he cannot have sex with her or anybody else, so his only option is masturbation, witch isnt enough to have a healthy life, he cannot divorce her either because she has him captive with guilt.
Of course many would not agree, after all, lots of people want to reduce sex as something unimportant or a guilty pleasure, while most if not all medics and scientists agree that note the case, sex is big deal for humanity, monogamy is not natural, but we can reason that, but in the top of that you ad no sex in a monogamous relationship then you have a perfect ingredients for insanity and low quality of life
Harming others by imposing your way of life is not love is pure selfishness
Of course many would not agree, after all, lots of people want to reduce sex as something unimportant or a guilty pleasure, while most if not all medics and scientists agree that note the case, sex is big deal for humanity, monogamy is not natural, but we can reason that, but in the top of that you ad no sex in a monogamous relationship then you have a perfect ingredients for insanity and low quality of life
Harming others by imposing your way of life is not love is pure selfishness
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