Slog
News & ArtsWednesday, June 29, 2011
Genius "Ten Rape Prevention Tips"
Posted by David Schmader on Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 3:12 PM
Posted by Leigh Hofheimer at Can You Relate?, brought to my attention by Last Days' commenter goreedgo, and proof that there is such a thing as a rape joke worth making in 2011 (despite all proof to the contrary supplied by Seattle's desperate-to-be-edgy comedians): Ten Rape Prevention Tips.
A few highlights:
3. If you pull over to help a woman whose car has broken down, remember not to rape her.
4. If you are in an elevator and a woman gets in, don’t rape her.
9. Carry a rape whistle. If you find that you are about to rape someone, blow the whistle until someone comes to stop you.
Thank you, Leigh Hofheimer.
1
Reminder: Schmader touts rape jokes but Tracy Morgan is an "unfunny dick." How about some consistency? Oh that's right, you're the unfunny dick.
2
The original posting this came from is pretty awesome, too.
http://womensstudies.homestead.com/tipsf…
http://womensstudies.homestead.com/tipsf…
3
@2 I can certainly give you awesome, but only in a totally different way.
The first one is sort of like "Free Beer", awesome.
The second one is kind of huge meteor punches a whole in the moon, awesome.
The first one is sort of like "Free Beer", awesome.
The second one is kind of huge meteor punches a whole in the moon, awesome.
4
Deciding that any kind of a joke about a given subject must be unfunny by default just makes you sound like you got raped by the stuffy stick.
5
It's very funny, but from my experience discussing the subject, it's exactly the sort of thing that is considered to "perpetuate rape culture."
6
@4 if that's directed at me, I'm not decrying rape jokes, I'm defending Tracy Morgan. Someone who was raped might not find these jokes funny, just as somebody who's gay might not find Tracy Morgan's remarks funny. And that's perfectly okay.
But it's fucking hypocritical for Slog to go out on a limb for rape jokes but beat up on Morgan. Morgan plays ignorant buffoon of a character and is intentionally ironic in the same way that these jokes are ironic. If you're like Schmader and you think Morgan should be publicly crucified just because he stepped on your pet interest during a comedy act, you're a humorless idiot.
But it's fucking hypocritical for Slog to go out on a limb for rape jokes but beat up on Morgan. Morgan plays ignorant buffoon of a character and is intentionally ironic in the same way that these jokes are ironic. If you're like Schmader and you think Morgan should be publicly crucified just because he stepped on your pet interest during a comedy act, you're a humorless idiot.
7
@6,
One problem: Morgan wasn't trying to be funny that night; he was ranting about his personal insecurities/intolerance. Are you going to try to claim that Gallagher is funny?
One problem: Morgan wasn't trying to be funny that night; he was ranting about his personal insecurities/intolerance. Are you going to try to claim that Gallagher is funny?
8
@7, How the hell do you know that? Morgan's onstage persona always says deeply bizarre, offensive and insensitive things. Every week on television he plays "Tracy Jordan" a complete buffoon who says all sorts of terrible things. There is nothing to suggest that this was anything personal. It's was only portrayed as some sort real rant because that way the media has a story. I'm sure people were offended, and Morgan isn't for everybody. The guy who reported the routine is too uptight to transcribe the word "nigga" (he said something like "It's a word I refuse to say"), so Morgan's comedy is probably not for him.
Gallagher is known for his prop comedy, not for offensive social commentary. So when he gives offensive social commentary, that's clearly all it is. He's also not funny anyway.
Gallagher is known for his prop comedy, not for offensive social commentary. So when he gives offensive social commentary, that's clearly all it is. He's also not funny anyway.
9
Funny or not, this makes a hell of a lot more sense than the usual rape prevention tips. They always make it seem like the behavior of the victim is at fault.
10
@5, I'm curious what makes you think this joke might be said to "perpetuate rape culture." It seems like the opposite, to me. The point of the joke is that the responsibility for preventing rape lies with the potential rapist, not the potential rapee.
13
Re: post: HAhahaha! Thank you, David.
Re: Tracy Jordan - I think Slog may have left off the story by this time - didja see how GLAAD got him and Kevin Rogers together (in near-identical shirts, no less) for a presser where he apologized?
http://mobile.dlisted.com/2011/06/21/tra…
Re: Tracy Jordan - I think Slog may have left off the story by this time - didja see how GLAAD got him and Kevin Rogers together (in near-identical shirts, no less) for a presser where he apologized?
The first thing I want to say is that I apologize to Kevin and people that were at the show for bumming them out. I want to apologize to my friends and my family and my fans and everyone in every community who were offended with this. I didn't mean it. I don’t have a hateful bone in my body. I don’t believe that anyone should be bullied or just made to feel bad about who they are. I totally feel that, in my heart, I really don’t care who you love, same-sex or not, as long as you have the ability to love. So now, at this point in my life, it's an opportunity to make a difference, I don't really see gay or straight, I just see human beings now. I pride myself on 20 years, 18 years of standup, of using it to heal people and not hurt. That was my whole thing. And I hurt people with this. So, from the bottom of my heart, I apologize to everyone who I offended with my words on stage, in Nashville and everywhere else. I want to take this opportunity, to err is human, to forgive is divine. Thank you Kevin, thank you everybody, for your support. I just want to take this opportunity to help and not hurt.More, plus a vid of the presser, at the glorious dlisted:
http://mobile.dlisted.com/2011/06/21/tra…
16
Being ugly is mysteriously absent from the list. Trust me that being ugly is the number one way to avoid being raped, which is why no slog reader has ever been raped, and those that say that they have been are lying.
17
AND, david schmader's so ugly he couldn't get raped in the joint. That is, you're so unattractive and disgusting looking, that if you were sent to prison for the rest of your life, you would be rape free. Whether or not you'd rape is a different story.
18
I think telling thugs and predators they shouldn't do something is an excellent way of preventing them from doing it and, therefore, reducing crime.
19
I wouldn't call the list of tips a joke, but it's not meant literally as a message to potential rapists either.
It's joke-like in that it uses a clever twist - the title makes you assume that it's advice for potential victims, so you're surprised to find advice for potential rapists. The brief confusion you feel will then - hopefully - make you think about WHY you assumed it would be addressing victims.
There's a tendency to talk about rape as if it's just something that happens, like an earthquake, so all you can do is be prepared. But rape isn't something that happens - it's something that rapists do. Every rape is the result of a decision made by a rapist - not the result of a decision made by a victim. So, why do we focus on the victims, rather than the rapists, when we talk about preventing rape?
Reminds me of a Golda Meir quote, when someone in the Israeli government proposed responding to an increase in rapes by putting a curfew on women. She said something like, "But it's the men who are raping the women. If anyone's to be put on a curfew, it should be men."
It's joke-like in that it uses a clever twist - the title makes you assume that it's advice for potential victims, so you're surprised to find advice for potential rapists. The brief confusion you feel will then - hopefully - make you think about WHY you assumed it would be addressing victims.
There's a tendency to talk about rape as if it's just something that happens, like an earthquake, so all you can do is be prepared. But rape isn't something that happens - it's something that rapists do. Every rape is the result of a decision made by a rapist - not the result of a decision made by a victim. So, why do we focus on the victims, rather than the rapists, when we talk about preventing rape?
Reminds me of a Golda Meir quote, when someone in the Israeli government proposed responding to an increase in rapes by putting a curfew on women. She said something like, "But it's the men who are raping the women. If anyone's to be put on a curfew, it should be men."
21
I can't help but feel like not a damn one of you who is arguing about whether or not this is "offensive" has read the list.
I mean, seriously, saying "Hey you fucking guys, you really should not do rapes" is not all that controversial. It is a statement that is so obvious it's almost baffling, except that you never hear it, which just serves to bring certain assumptions to your attention as @19 noted.
I mean, seriously, saying "Hey you fucking guys, you really should not do rapes" is not all that controversial. It is a statement that is so obvious it's almost baffling, except that you never hear it, which just serves to bring certain assumptions to your attention as @19 noted.
22
Her #1 rule for preventing rape is a great example of hysteria and fearmongering causing real harm to women.
There has never been a single confirmed report of a women being slipped something in her drink and raped. This sounds incredible but it is true. Women are not raped by date rape "designer" drugs, they are raped when they consume alcohol. There is no need for another date rape drug to be involved. Alcohol gets the job done fine.
So the point is that when women worry about something being slipped in their drink they assume it is safe to drink when often that is all the rapist needs to get the green light.
There has never been a single confirmed report of a women being slipped something in her drink and raped. This sounds incredible but it is true. Women are not raped by date rape "designer" drugs, they are raped when they consume alcohol. There is no need for another date rape drug to be involved. Alcohol gets the job done fine.
So the point is that when women worry about something being slipped in their drink they assume it is safe to drink when often that is all the rapist needs to get the green light.
23
"There has never been a single confirmed report of a women being slipped something in her drink and raped."
I had a girlfriend where something similar happened to (also ever heard of Jamie Leigh Jones? is she bullshitting that she was gang raped and then had reconstructive surgery after being slipped something? did she just have one too many to drink? fake all the lab tests that showed the GHB in her system?) , so I take some offense to this @22 I took my ex to the hospital after her rape and they eventually found drugs she didn't think she took that night. Sure, she willingly ingested the pill thinking it was something else, but as I would hope you got the message from the linked article THE PERSON STICKING THEIR PENIS WHERE IT DIDN'T BELONG IS THE ONLY PERSON AT FAULT IN THIS SITUATION. It doesn't matter how many drugs a woman has taken, or chosen to take, STOP PUTTING YOUR PENIS WHERE IT DOESN'T BELONG is the only message that matters. You're correct in that, hindsight being 20/20 she should have questioned her friend from high school giving her cheap drugs, but being the naive trusting teenager she was she thought she considered all the variables, until he put his penis and fingers where they didn't belong. If any future human gets the idea that rape is ok because the woman in question has an altered state of consciousness in any way shape or form THEY ARE DOING IT WRONG. She could be passed out with a sign up her vagina that says 'come on in', RAPE IS RAPE and it's never ok, even if the woman is "asking for it" by being overly trusting. The idea swarming around is that there is no green light you give rapists other than YES or DO WHAT YOU WANT TO ME but without those words THERE IS NO EXCUSE. And when the advances don't stop after a no? No amount of "well but I smelled alcohol on her breath" makes any aggressive behavior acceptable on any level. And it's time our criminal justice system got the memo. I get beyond a shadow of a doubt, but this whole, what was her BAC level shit is just a fucking joke.
More...
I had a girlfriend where something similar happened to (also ever heard of Jamie Leigh Jones? is she bullshitting that she was gang raped and then had reconstructive surgery after being slipped something? did she just have one too many to drink? fake all the lab tests that showed the GHB in her system?) , so I take some offense to this @22 I took my ex to the hospital after her rape and they eventually found drugs she didn't think she took that night. Sure, she willingly ingested the pill thinking it was something else, but as I would hope you got the message from the linked article THE PERSON STICKING THEIR PENIS WHERE IT DIDN'T BELONG IS THE ONLY PERSON AT FAULT IN THIS SITUATION. It doesn't matter how many drugs a woman has taken, or chosen to take, STOP PUTTING YOUR PENIS WHERE IT DOESN'T BELONG is the only message that matters. You're correct in that, hindsight being 20/20 she should have questioned her friend from high school giving her cheap drugs, but being the naive trusting teenager she was she thought she considered all the variables, until he put his penis and fingers where they didn't belong. If any future human gets the idea that rape is ok because the woman in question has an altered state of consciousness in any way shape or form THEY ARE DOING IT WRONG. She could be passed out with a sign up her vagina that says 'come on in', RAPE IS RAPE and it's never ok, even if the woman is "asking for it" by being overly trusting. The idea swarming around is that there is no green light you give rapists other than YES or DO WHAT YOU WANT TO ME but without those words THERE IS NO EXCUSE. And when the advances don't stop after a no? No amount of "well but I smelled alcohol on her breath" makes any aggressive behavior acceptable on any level. And it's time our criminal justice system got the memo. I get beyond a shadow of a doubt, but this whole, what was her BAC level shit is just a fucking joke.
24
@23 You make my point for me perfectly. I think you took offense when really we are on the same page. You still need to understand the facts of the situation. According to your story your friend took a pill consensually knowing it was an intoxicant that she could not vouch for. That is likely where her mistakes end and the criminal acts of the rapist begin.
Pointing out a mistake that was made as a lesson to her and others to make good decisions in the future is not blaming the victim. Fear mongering and worrying about random roofies being popped in drinks leads to more women being raped, not less.
When stories of women being slipped drugs are common it leaves women who were not slipped drugs feeling like they are somehow to blame. This leads to a culture where rape victims feel they need to say they were somehow intoxicated against their will when often it was completely their own choice to be intoxicated. The assumption there is that being intoxicated grants permission for rape which is wrong.
Pointing out a mistake that was made as a lesson to her and others to make good decisions in the future is not blaming the victim. Fear mongering and worrying about random roofies being popped in drinks leads to more women being raped, not less.
When stories of women being slipped drugs are common it leaves women who were not slipped drugs feeling like they are somehow to blame. This leads to a culture where rape victims feel they need to say they were somehow intoxicated against their will when often it was completely their own choice to be intoxicated. The assumption there is that being intoxicated grants permission for rape which is wrong.
25
Packeteer - drinking is not a "mistake". Taking recreational drugs is not a "mistake". And no mistake causes rape.
I love the list by Hofheimer, but I want to know where the real anti-rape education is? Boys and young men should be taken aside at regular intervals and educated on what rape is and how not to do it. It would have helped me.
I love the list by Hofheimer, but I want to know where the real anti-rape education is? Boys and young men should be taken aside at regular intervals and educated on what rape is and how not to do it. It would have helped me.
26
Who knew rape was a crime that is completely unlike every other crime? By the logic of this list, we should:
- not be aware of our surroundings when we take cash out of an ATM (after all, a mugging is entirely the fault of the mugger)
- not lock our doors or windows when we leave the house (after all, a burglary is entirely the fault of the burglar)
- not try to take cover if someone is shooting at us (after all, a shooting is entirely the fault of the shooter)
So here's where we are. Yes, the person perpetrating the crime is entirely at fault for that crime. So. Fucking. What. Crime is going to happen no matter what. To tell people to take reasonable precautions, to not act like an idiot (yes, getting drunk/stoned out of your mind is acting like an idiot, and raises your vulnerability to all crimes, not just rape) is not putting the blame on the rape victim. To tell people to try not to draw attention to themselves in an unknown situation is a reasonable precaution that is taught to prevent muggings - yet when you apply the same logic to preventing rape, that is blaming the victim.
Be smart. Take precautions. Stop acting like your potential victim status removes any trace of responsibility for your own actions. And please, for the love of Christ, stop pretending there is just one kind of rape. Or one kind of situation where a rape can occur. If I hear one more story of 'I was asleep in my bed when I was raped, was I a slut' justifications for not taking any precautions, I will scream.
Btw, raped when I was five years old. So yes, I get an opinion.
- not be aware of our surroundings when we take cash out of an ATM (after all, a mugging is entirely the fault of the mugger)
- not lock our doors or windows when we leave the house (after all, a burglary is entirely the fault of the burglar)
- not try to take cover if someone is shooting at us (after all, a shooting is entirely the fault of the shooter)
So here's where we are. Yes, the person perpetrating the crime is entirely at fault for that crime. So. Fucking. What. Crime is going to happen no matter what. To tell people to take reasonable precautions, to not act like an idiot (yes, getting drunk/stoned out of your mind is acting like an idiot, and raises your vulnerability to all crimes, not just rape) is not putting the blame on the rape victim. To tell people to try not to draw attention to themselves in an unknown situation is a reasonable precaution that is taught to prevent muggings - yet when you apply the same logic to preventing rape, that is blaming the victim.
Be smart. Take precautions. Stop acting like your potential victim status removes any trace of responsibility for your own actions. And please, for the love of Christ, stop pretending there is just one kind of rape. Or one kind of situation where a rape can occur. If I hear one more story of 'I was asleep in my bed when I was raped, was I a slut' justifications for not taking any precautions, I will scream.
Btw, raped when I was five years old. So yes, I get an opinion.
27
@25 Getting so drunk you can't reasonably defend yourself is absolutely a mistake. Take a drug from unknown origins is absolutely a mistake. Making yourself so vulnerable that you can't help yourself is absolutely a mistake. All actions have consequences, some good, some bad. It's mostly down to luck. I was raped when I was a child. Couldn't help that, could I? Bad luck, really. As a grown-up, why should I make it any easier for potential predators by intoxicating myself to the point where I can't put up some sort of defense? I could still be raped, even with my reasonable precautions of not getting out of my mind wasted, staying with groups of people, and not drawing attention to myself when I'm alone. But guess what? That all comes down to luck. But I have better chances because I'm aware of myself and aware of others around me. So I ask again, why should I make it easier?
28
@25 oh, also, of course men shouldn't rape. Men also should kill, steal, or attack one another. The idea of mandatory rape prevention classes for men is ludicrous and counter-productive. How about mandatory murder prevention classes? I think that's be a lot more useful, you know. I was raped, but I'm still here to live my life. If I was murdered, well, I'd be dead.
29
@10, 11 -
To be clear--I'm no expert on nor spokesperson for the "rape culture" movement. I read a lot about it during the Penny Arcade dickwolves fiasco, and I was able to understand the general shape, but I can't say that I ever really...I hate to say "grokked" it, but there's no actual real word that means that.
I remember reading an excellent essay that basically explained that taking offense at the original dickwolves strip was probably exaggerating the situation, but that their followup "apology" where they told anyone that started raping because of their strip should stop raping right now, did exactly what they were wrongly accused of doing in the initial strip.
By joking that rapists can just be told "don't do that" and they'll realize their error of their ways, it could be seen to devalue the horror of the real thing. I have an easier time picturing it in the context of the much more exaggerated effects of prison rape jokes. "Everybody" "knows" that criminals get raped in prison, but it's viewed as either funny or well-deserved, when it's really neither.
*shrug* I dunno.
On the other hand, I think @18 makes an excellent point about how the joke can be seen to challenge preconceptions. There's probably real value in that.
To be clear--I'm no expert on nor spokesperson for the "rape culture" movement. I read a lot about it during the Penny Arcade dickwolves fiasco, and I was able to understand the general shape, but I can't say that I ever really...I hate to say "grokked" it, but there's no actual real word that means that.
I remember reading an excellent essay that basically explained that taking offense at the original dickwolves strip was probably exaggerating the situation, but that their followup "apology" where they told anyone that started raping because of their strip should stop raping right now, did exactly what they were wrongly accused of doing in the initial strip.
By joking that rapists can just be told "don't do that" and they'll realize their error of their ways, it could be seen to devalue the horror of the real thing. I have an easier time picturing it in the context of the much more exaggerated effects of prison rape jokes. "Everybody" "knows" that criminals get raped in prison, but it's viewed as either funny or well-deserved, when it's really neither.
*shrug* I dunno.
On the other hand, I think @18 makes an excellent point about how the joke can be seen to challenge preconceptions. There's probably real value in that.
30
@22: When I worked at a hospital on a university campus, we definitely had women come in who thought they had only had beer but had positive drug tests for GHB and/or MDMA. Care to cite your sources?
31
Yes, and the best way to prevent terrorism is to put a curfew on Arabs. And the best way to prevent property crimes is to put a curfew on poor people.
God you guys are clever. You act like prejudice is somehow edgy and original if you just aim it at the right people.
She said something like, "But it's the men who are raping the women. If anyone's to be put on a curfew, it should be men."
Yes, and the best way to prevent terrorism is to put a curfew on Arabs. And the best way to prevent property crimes is to put a curfew on poor people.
God you guys are clever. You act like prejudice is somehow edgy and original if you just aim it at the right people.
32
@31 - Did you actually read the sentence before the one you quoted? She was responding to suggestions that rapes could be reduced by putting a curfew on women...
Jackass.
Jackass.
33
@30 I am happy to cite my sources. There has, as far as I am aware, not been a documented case of a women being unwillingly given a drug surreptitiously in a drink leading to Drug Facilitated Sexual Assault (DFSA). I am providing evidence of my claim below, if you want to refute it please provide your own evidence.
This does not mean DFSA has never happened, surely it has somewhere, but what it does mean is that it likely almost never happens. I cannot comment on your particular anecdote about a friend because I don't have any of the facts around that situation but DFSA something I have done a great deal of research on.
My goal is not to blame the victim in any way. I do however want to fully understand the circumstances around DFSA. There are two important reasons why we need to get to the truth. The first is to prevent DFSA. Prevention cannon happen by chastising men or women individually, we have to educate both sexes as part of a larger more comprehensive plan to end DFSA and all sexual assault.
England: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/artic…
Australia: http://www.kent.ac.uk/sspssr/staff/acade…
United States: http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grant…
There are plenty more comprehensive studies done that show that women often self report being drugged but only alcohol is found. There is another phenomenon where women consensually take drugs such as GHB or Rohypnol along with alcohol and later due to their own behavior preceding a rape claim they did not take the drug consentually. This is due to the guilt and shame they feel. If we do not combat the guilt and shame of a rape victim we further victimize them and that is immoral.
We need to be willing to admit that sometimes women do contribute to the circumstances around their own rape so that we can clarify that just because they contributed to the risks does not mean they are to blame. Anything less than this will only lead to more shame and guilt on the victim.
More...
This does not mean DFSA has never happened, surely it has somewhere, but what it does mean is that it likely almost never happens. I cannot comment on your particular anecdote about a friend because I don't have any of the facts around that situation but DFSA something I have done a great deal of research on.
My goal is not to blame the victim in any way. I do however want to fully understand the circumstances around DFSA. There are two important reasons why we need to get to the truth. The first is to prevent DFSA. Prevention cannon happen by chastising men or women individually, we have to educate both sexes as part of a larger more comprehensive plan to end DFSA and all sexual assault.
England: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/artic…
Australia: http://www.kent.ac.uk/sspssr/staff/acade…
United States: http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grant…
There are plenty more comprehensive studies done that show that women often self report being drugged but only alcohol is found. There is another phenomenon where women consensually take drugs such as GHB or Rohypnol along with alcohol and later due to their own behavior preceding a rape claim they did not take the drug consentually. This is due to the guilt and shame they feel. If we do not combat the guilt and shame of a rape victim we further victimize them and that is immoral.
We need to be willing to admit that sometimes women do contribute to the circumstances around their own rape so that we can clarify that just because they contributed to the risks does not mean they are to blame. Anything less than this will only lead to more shame and guilt on the victim.
34
@33 - The US study you cite right there found 6 out of 144 cases examined qualified as DFSA1, "surreptitious drug use." The study certainly showed that tainted drugs as a vehicle for delivery as more common than slipping it into the girl's drinks, but it's a far cry from that to "there has...not been a documented case...."
35
@34 I just posted it so I am sure you have not had time to read the whole thing yet. They later go on to explain there is an under-reporting bias that clouds the picture. I said in my post that surely it HAS happened but with the difficulty we have in finding even a handful and slam dunk cases shows that any fear mongering about date rape drugs is completely not based in facts.
The article goes on to show that some drugs are not ever given as a date rape drug yet were vastly under-reported by rape victims. In fact not a single rape victim admitted to using amphetamines but that is not a drug that can be slipped into a drink. Amphetamines are extremely bitter and unpleasant tasting. Also there is no reason to slip a potential victim a stimulant.
"Data for the marijuana and stimulant analysis is especially interesting in
considering the validity of self-reporting among sexual assault complainants. Only
38.5% of subjects positive for cocaine, 17.6% of subjects positive for marijuana and none
of those positive for amphetamines admitted to using the drug. These drugs are not
normally given surreptitiously, and represent good markers for the validity of selfreporting of drug use in this study. This data shows that sexual assault complainants
145from this site, as in the above sites, are highly likely to underreport their illegal drug
usage. "
The article goes on to show that some drugs are not ever given as a date rape drug yet were vastly under-reported by rape victims. In fact not a single rape victim admitted to using amphetamines but that is not a drug that can be slipped into a drink. Amphetamines are extremely bitter and unpleasant tasting. Also there is no reason to slip a potential victim a stimulant.
"Data for the marijuana and stimulant analysis is especially interesting in
considering the validity of self-reporting among sexual assault complainants. Only
38.5% of subjects positive for cocaine, 17.6% of subjects positive for marijuana and none
of those positive for amphetamines admitted to using the drug. These drugs are not
normally given surreptitiously, and represent good markers for the validity of selfreporting of drug use in this study. This data shows that sexual assault complainants
145from this site, as in the above sites, are highly likely to underreport their illegal drug
usage. "
36
Let me explain a little more about why I care to research this so much. As I stated my goal is to prevent DFSA and all sexual assault whenever possible. Chastising men for being the same gender as most rape perpetrators does nothing to prevent future rapes. We need to give men a model in which to make decisions about when is sex ok and when is it not ok. You cannot put out blanket statements such as whenever a sip of alcohol touches a women's lips she is off limits.
I personally have had sex with women while they were drunk. I have personally said "whoa, this girl is too drunk" and not gone through with it. Did I make the right decision in all cases? I hope so but I suppose I cannot be sure. The reason why me and other men like me cannot be sure is there is so much biased conjecture going around. Not until we have the true facts of the case can we really educate men about when it is ok and when it is not. Also part of that education is to help women learn without shaming them when their behavior leads to a risk of being sexually assaulted.
I personally have had sex with women while they were drunk. I have personally said "whoa, this girl is too drunk" and not gone through with it. Did I make the right decision in all cases? I hope so but I suppose I cannot be sure. The reason why me and other men like me cannot be sure is there is so much biased conjecture going around. Not until we have the true facts of the case can we really educate men about when it is ok and when it is not. Also part of that education is to help women learn without shaming them when their behavior leads to a risk of being sexually assaulted.
37
@33: As a health care provider, I don't have (or seek) proof when a woman tells me that she only drank and the labwork comes back with evidence of drugs. I also can't give you sources, because it would be illegal for me to drive to Hamilton, break into my old hospital and post patient files. The best I can give you is that, based on the timeline and the officer involved, I'm pretty sure that the case I saw was one of the thirty mentioned in this article.
38
Actually, I read quite quickly. But I skimmed past sections where they discussed the effects of intentionally-consumed drugs, so that sped things up considerably.
My point is this: what you said in 36 is clear, helpful and concise. What you said in 22 is grossly misleading and inflammatory. There is no value in declaring that nobody has ever been "slipped the mickey," when you know full-well that's absolutely untrue.
The NCJRS study found roughly 5% of their cases met the conservative definition of DFSA. They qualified that statement by making points about failure to self-report drug use. But they *also* qualified it by pointing out that GHB drops to levels that could be naturally produced within 12 hours of consumption. I can't quickly find any stats on the average length of time to report a sexual assault, but since 60% *never* report it, I feel confident that a fair number report outside that useful window.
You were asked to cite your sources, and while I commend you for attempting to do so, the information you provided does not support your statement at all. The difference between "we found an estimate of 5%, but there is considerable uncertainty to that value" and "there has never been a documented incident" is a gulf 5,000+ women wide. Per year. 12,500 women/year if you include the 60% unreported.
My point is this: what you said in 36 is clear, helpful and concise. What you said in 22 is grossly misleading and inflammatory. There is no value in declaring that nobody has ever been "slipped the mickey," when you know full-well that's absolutely untrue.
The NCJRS study found roughly 5% of their cases met the conservative definition of DFSA. They qualified that statement by making points about failure to self-report drug use. But they *also* qualified it by pointing out that GHB drops to levels that could be naturally produced within 12 hours of consumption. I can't quickly find any stats on the average length of time to report a sexual assault, but since 60% *never* report it, I feel confident that a fair number report outside that useful window.
You were asked to cite your sources, and while I commend you for attempting to do so, the information you provided does not support your statement at all. The difference between "we found an estimate of 5%, but there is considerable uncertainty to that value" and "there has never been a documented incident" is a gulf 5,000+ women wide. Per year. 12,500 women/year if you include the 60% unreported.
39
@37 The article you linked is another example of fear mongering with no proof. You have a police Staff Sergeant who admitted he is going on a "marketing blitz" when there is only a suspicion of DFSA. I understand you may not have the evidence to provide right here and now. I also understand that does not disprove your assertion that DFSA is common.
I do however hope that you can take my evidence that I have provided and reconcile that evidence with your personal anecdotes. The two are not mutually exclusive. I have outlined above why if the assertion that DFSA is common is in fact wrong, we are harming rape victims by claiming it is very common.
I do however hope that you can take my evidence that I have provided and reconcile that evidence with your personal anecdotes. The two are not mutually exclusive. I have outlined above why if the assertion that DFSA is common is in fact wrong, we are harming rape victims by claiming it is very common.
40
@38 My point in saying that "There has never been a single confirmed report" is not that it has never happened. You and me and everyone here surely agree it has happened. My point is that there are no slam dunk cases. Not a single one. We don't have any video of someone putting a pill in a drink combined with test results later. I understand that if that is the burden of evidence we may never document a single case. I don't think we need that level of evidence but I believe that the documents do support my point. My point is that the overall perception is that DFSA is quite common, we know this is not the case because not only are there no slam dunk cases but there is also plenty of evidence to think that what appear to be a strong case are in fact not.
I want to repeat myself that these points do not assert that date rape does not happen. My issue is with the fear mongering that is not based in facts that we see in the media. This in turn shows up in a cognitive confirmation bias where people believe it happens often so they feel they are correct in assessing it did happen. I feel that we are spiraling out of control away from the facts. I also outlined above why we need to get to the real facts of the situation so we can educate men and women. We need to educate men and women not only because it is the moral thing to do but for the very pragmatic purpose of preventing rape.
More specifically I agree that GHB is going to be one of the hardest to document cases of date rape drugs but GHB is also harder to obtain than Rohypnol as Mexico is an easy source for Rohypnol. Rohypnol like all benzodiazapines can be detected for a few days.
I want to also state that my goal is not to call into question accusations of date rape. My goal is the exact opposite. I want a women who has been raped to be able to say "I was raped while under the influence of only alcohol and that is still wrong." If we indirectly pressure women into assuming that "only alcohol" puts the blame on themselves as the victim, we are committing a secondary offense to the rape.
More...
I want to repeat myself that these points do not assert that date rape does not happen. My issue is with the fear mongering that is not based in facts that we see in the media. This in turn shows up in a cognitive confirmation bias where people believe it happens often so they feel they are correct in assessing it did happen. I feel that we are spiraling out of control away from the facts. I also outlined above why we need to get to the real facts of the situation so we can educate men and women. We need to educate men and women not only because it is the moral thing to do but for the very pragmatic purpose of preventing rape.
More specifically I agree that GHB is going to be one of the hardest to document cases of date rape drugs but GHB is also harder to obtain than Rohypnol as Mexico is an easy source for Rohypnol. Rohypnol like all benzodiazapines can be detected for a few days.
I want to also state that my goal is not to call into question accusations of date rape. My goal is the exact opposite. I want a women who has been raped to be able to say "I was raped while under the influence of only alcohol and that is still wrong." If we indirectly pressure women into assuming that "only alcohol" puts the blame on themselves as the victim, we are committing a secondary offense to the rape.
41
I also want to point out that if our culture requires women to have been slipped something in addition to alcohol for them to be exonerated of blame when they are raped that we are fueling a cycle of victim blaming. Sadly in this scenario it is the victims who are contributing to each other's further victimization unknowingly when they claim to have been slipped something out of fear they are labeled responsible for their own rape.
I see this scenario is analogous to some of the ways domestic violence or sexual assault continues in a cycle that we as a society looking inward need to identify and solve. We need to break the cycle of victim blaming. I believe I have laid out a good case that we have all unintentionally done that by participating in spreading a myth that DFSA is very common. I may have come off as inflammatory earlier but that is because I am passionate about what I see is a major misunderstanding. I don't ask for a pound of flesh as penance for what is an honest mistake. I just want to move forward with preventing rape and rape culture.
I see this scenario is analogous to some of the ways domestic violence or sexual assault continues in a cycle that we as a society looking inward need to identify and solve. We need to break the cycle of victim blaming. I believe I have laid out a good case that we have all unintentionally done that by participating in spreading a myth that DFSA is very common. I may have come off as inflammatory earlier but that is because I am passionate about what I see is a major misunderstanding. I don't ask for a pound of flesh as penance for what is an honest mistake. I just want to move forward with preventing rape and rape culture.
42
To everyone to said that people should be aware of their surroundings and take care of themselves: yes, of course. Ultimately, I am the only person who can be put in charge of taking care of myself.
But I love this list because, as many people above have said, every other list I've read places sole responsibility for personal safety on the potential victim. And really, when rape happens, it's not even our fault, so what the fuck? I think it's only fair that rapists should stop raping a little. I know, life's not fair, but I'm going to go ahead and dream a little, because it's Friday, and it's really sunny outside. I do think that this world can change.
I've never read a list like this before. @19, exactly what you've said--when I read the title, "Ten Rape Prevention Tips," I thought, "Seriously? Schmader, I know you're not going to tell me to be on curfew or drink from a sippy cup at bars." This list pleasantly upends our expectations of who has agency in preventing rape. I don't think of it as a joke at all. It's funny, but it's serious, too.
But I love this list because, as many people above have said, every other list I've read places sole responsibility for personal safety on the potential victim. And really, when rape happens, it's not even our fault, so what the fuck? I think it's only fair that rapists should stop raping a little. I know, life's not fair, but I'm going to go ahead and dream a little, because it's Friday, and it's really sunny outside. I do think that this world can change.
I've never read a list like this before. @19, exactly what you've said--when I read the title, "Ten Rape Prevention Tips," I thought, "Seriously? Schmader, I know you're not going to tell me to be on curfew or drink from a sippy cup at bars." This list pleasantly upends our expectations of who has agency in preventing rape. I don't think of it as a joke at all. It's funny, but it's serious, too.
43
19/rhymes: It's joke-like in that it uses a clever twist - the title makes you assume that it's advice for potential victims, so you're surprised to find advice for potential rapists. The brief confusion you feel will then - hopefully - make you think about WHY you assumed it would be addressing victims.
If there was a post titled "Ten Burglary Prevention Tips", everyone would also assume it was addressing potential victims. It's reasonable to assume that prevention tips for any crime are going to be addressing potential victims.
So, why do we focus on the victims, rather than the rapists, when we talk about preventing rape?
Why do we focus on victims, instead of the predators, when we talk about preventing car theft, or keeping computers safe from viruses? Instead, why don't we focus on the predators and simply tell them to not prey on people? I'm sure if we did that, they would agree to stop.
Why do we have all these expensive and time-consuming security measures at airports which just hassle potential victims? Instead, why don't we focus on the terrorists and simply tell them to not hijack planes and kill people? I'm sure if we did that, they would agree to stop.
If there was a post titled "Ten Burglary Prevention Tips", everyone would also assume it was addressing potential victims. It's reasonable to assume that prevention tips for any crime are going to be addressing potential victims.
So, why do we focus on the victims, rather than the rapists, when we talk about preventing rape?
Why do we focus on victims, instead of the predators, when we talk about preventing car theft, or keeping computers safe from viruses? Instead, why don't we focus on the predators and simply tell them to not prey on people? I'm sure if we did that, they would agree to stop.
Why do we have all these expensive and time-consuming security measures at airports which just hassle potential victims? Instead, why don't we focus on the terrorists and simply tell them to not hijack planes and kill people? I'm sure if we did that, they would agree to stop.
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