Slog
News & ArtsWednesday, June 15, 2011
Homo / Religion You Call Yourself Christian? Do Something About This Monster
Posted by Paul Constant on Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 2:30 PM
Okay, look. Christian commenters on Slog are always saying we're misrepresenting Christianity by focusing on the haters. Well, fucking prove we're misrepresenting you, Christians. Christian Nightmares just ran a video of an anti-gay speech by evangelist Damon Thompson. It's hate speech, pure and simple, raging against "queers" and saying some atrocious things about bullied gay teenagers, all in the name of Jesus. I'm warning you before you watch it: This video is really bad:
I want to see Christians lead the protest against this guy. I want to see all those good-hearted Christians who allegedly stand against intolerance let this man know that he is unacceptable, and that he is misrepresenting their religion. He's using Jesus to promote intolerance and hate; this shit belongs in the past. If you call yourself a Christian and you let fuckers like Damon Thompson go without saying something, you are part of the problem, because you're standing with him and his monstrous behavior.
2
Well, this has been one of the saddest, most depressing days on SLOG. Between this, the cinder block droppin' daddy and the weeping, mentally disabled folks I pretty much just feel like checking out for the day.
3
Jesus H. Christ on a cracker, that man is completely unhinged. I wonder how much gay porn he has on his computer?
5
AMEN, Dan ! These people need to speak up and say that hatred in the name of Christ will not be tolerated - on ANY level. If they don't, then you are 100% correct: they are part of the problem.
C'mon christians - put your money where your mouth is!
C'mon christians - put your money where your mouth is!
6
Well, the bible clearly states in several places that God hates fags. And if you believe in God and are a Christian you really don't get to cherry pick what to believe and what not to believe.
And really...you think the good Christians will do anything about this guy?!? HA HA HA!!!
And really...you think the good Christians will do anything about this guy?!? HA HA HA!!!
8
how many Christians are there in the world? 1 Billion or so?
I am not longer a christian, but was raised in at least 4 wildly different divisions of the religion and I hear your critics concerns.
I guess, I would just ask that you would consistently approach these christian radicals/terrorists and Christianity the way you approach muslim radicals/terrorists and Islam. there is such a wild diversity ANYTIME you are talking about 1 billion people being "______s" that we all need to watch our language so we are not vicarious demonizing 1/6 of the worlds population at once.
that being said, if I had not be indoctrinated with the figure Jesus Christ as a child, I would probably not be the radical anarchist and activist I am now. I learned, through years of religious studies in college, that all religions have these valuable figures and sentiments which are usually caught up and commodified by the organizational wing of the religion. fuck organized spirituality on large scales.
I loathe this man and I loathe the local "christian" community that tows this line even more. which is why I fight to subvert their efforts.
so, no, I am not a christian anymore but, yes, I do stand up to this when I see it in my community and neighborhood.
and, I don't wish for you to write glowing pieces about Liberation Theology or the Catholic Workers but I do wish for it not to always come off like a demonization of 1 billion humans.
I am not longer a christian, but was raised in at least 4 wildly different divisions of the religion and I hear your critics concerns.
I guess, I would just ask that you would consistently approach these christian radicals/terrorists and Christianity the way you approach muslim radicals/terrorists and Islam. there is such a wild diversity ANYTIME you are talking about 1 billion people being "______s" that we all need to watch our language so we are not vicarious demonizing 1/6 of the worlds population at once.
that being said, if I had not be indoctrinated with the figure Jesus Christ as a child, I would probably not be the radical anarchist and activist I am now. I learned, through years of religious studies in college, that all religions have these valuable figures and sentiments which are usually caught up and commodified by the organizational wing of the religion. fuck organized spirituality on large scales.
I loathe this man and I loathe the local "christian" community that tows this line even more. which is why I fight to subvert their efforts.
so, no, I am not a christian anymore but, yes, I do stand up to this when I see it in my community and neighborhood.
and, I don't wish for you to write glowing pieces about Liberation Theology or the Catholic Workers but I do wish for it not to always come off like a demonization of 1 billion humans.
9
Christians don't have an obligation to protest every bigoted fringe zealot who claims to be a Christian, just as Muslims don't have an obligation to protest every hateful bigoted zealot who wears that cloth either.
And, of course, atheists don't have an obligation to go protest the human rights abuses of the atheist Chinese government. You can, but you aren't "part of the problem" if you don't.
And, of course, atheists don't have an obligation to go protest the human rights abuses of the atheist Chinese government. You can, but you aren't "part of the problem" if you don't.
13
Dear Paul Constant,
I don't have sound on my work computer, but I'm vicariously enraged anyway and promise to rant about this on wtfwouldjesusdo.com ASAP.
And by the way, you used to have WTFWJD? of your 'friends of Slog' list but now you don't. Since the whole premise of that blog is a Christian using the Bible to prove immoral the behavior of the religious right, it seems like you might want to put it back up there. You know, to prove we exist and are not, in fact, a part of the problem.
Oh, and you might want to talk to a friend of mine who is a minister and also actively worked to help legalize gay marriage in Iowa.
Love,
Jocelyn
I don't have sound on my work computer, but I'm vicariously enraged anyway and promise to rant about this on wtfwouldjesusdo.com ASAP.
And by the way, you used to have WTFWJD? of your 'friends of Slog' list but now you don't. Since the whole premise of that blog is a Christian using the Bible to prove immoral the behavior of the religious right, it seems like you might want to put it back up there. You know, to prove we exist and are not, in fact, a part of the problem.
Oh, and you might want to talk to a friend of mine who is a minister and also actively worked to help legalize gay marriage in Iowa.
Love,
Jocelyn
14
@9: Good point! Except, no, it's not. American atheists don't claim to be in the same boat as the Chinese government. Yes, we all lack a belief in gods, but that's not much to build a friendship on.
16
Oh, the Christians pick and choose passages in the Bible: few now sell their daughters off to slavery, stone their neighbors for watching football on Sunday, or feel compelled to impregnate their dead brother's wives, as they're exhorted to do in the Old Testament.
Along with other abominations they ignore, is the "abomination" of mixed fiber clothing. Polyester/cotton blends equally abominable as homosexuality, if you count Leviticus.
Also, other than apostate Mormons, few Christians practice polygamy, another approved Old Testament practice. (And let's not forget Noah's incest with his daughters.)
All and all, so-called Christians ignore much of what the Bible tells 'em to do, saving up all their hate and bile for a couple passages on homosexuality.
Kinda leads one to believe they're bigots, with no good biblical excuse, even.
Along with other abominations they ignore, is the "abomination" of mixed fiber clothing. Polyester/cotton blends equally abominable as homosexuality, if you count Leviticus.
Also, other than apostate Mormons, few Christians practice polygamy, another approved Old Testament practice. (And let's not forget Noah's incest with his daughters.)
All and all, so-called Christians ignore much of what the Bible tells 'em to do, saving up all their hate and bile for a couple passages on homosexuality.
Kinda leads one to believe they're bigots, with no good biblical excuse, even.
17
@9
Atheism is as broad a category for belief system as is theism. All the manner and ways in which one might claim atheism (often merely as an aside) do not, amalgamated form a coherent belief system. Apples and oranges.
Atheism is as broad a category for belief system as is theism. All the manner and ways in which one might claim atheism (often merely as an aside) do not, amalgamated form a coherent belief system. Apples and oranges.
18
@14, exactly. American atheists have as much in common with the cabal who runs the PRC (or Stalin, Pol Pot, etc.) as the vast majority of the world's 2 billion Christians have with the idiot in this video. Or about as as much as the vast majority of the world's Muslims have with the leaders of al-Qaida.
You're associating people based on a simple label not their actual stated beliefs. Knee jerk anti-Christianism is just as silly, immature, and, yes, bigoted as any other form of ignorant intolerance.
You're associating people based on a simple label not their actual stated beliefs. Knee jerk anti-Christianism is just as silly, immature, and, yes, bigoted as any other form of ignorant intolerance.
19
Except, ya know, atheism isn't communism...nor is it nazism or stalinism, stupid. When you criticize atheism, it's probably a good thing to know what it is...or anything, for that matter. "NALTs" are a part of the problem, and they won't but bitterly complain if you call out their brethren on their despicable bigoted behavior. The only time you hear from the vast majority of non-bigoted christians (even know that they don't agree) is when they groan and moan about how you're offending them by criticizing the same faith that empowers and encourages their bigoted brothers and sisters such as this guy.
But what do you expect from people who use the same exact reasoning to criticize their bigoted fellow travelers that those same bigots use against them? "You're a broken christian" or, "you're not a REAL CHRISTIAN"...change won't happen from within...it never has and never will. Wake up--think like a person with a brain on these issues.
But what do you expect from people who use the same exact reasoning to criticize their bigoted fellow travelers that those same bigots use against them? "You're a broken christian" or, "you're not a REAL CHRISTIAN"...change won't happen from within...it never has and never will. Wake up--think like a person with a brain on these issues.
20
I'm no religious apologist as I don't follow any of them, but this is dangerous logic. I am however very critical of muslims, so I totally approve of it.
21
Simpler for ya. Atheism is normatively inert. That means that you can't justify any behavior from atheism. It's just not there in the meaning of the term...no "shoulds" whatsoever. It's not a worldview or an ethic or a philosophy. It's simply absence of belief in god or gods. Christianity isn't normatively inert. It is a worldview, and does contain many "shoulds". Conflicts occur between christians and other religionists about "shoulds"--about which made up stories matter and which don't.
22
@17, I assure you the diversity of beliefs that come under the heading "Christianity" is just as varied as those that constitute atheism and agnosticism.
There are dumb Christians, smart Christians, compassionate Christians, bigoted Christians. Christians who put out on the first date and Christians who wait until marriage. Christians who are happy to take up arms and Christians who are devoted pacifists. In short, an enormous diversity among this large subsection of humanity.
There are dumb Christians, smart Christians, compassionate Christians, bigoted Christians. Christians who put out on the first date and Christians who wait until marriage. Christians who are happy to take up arms and Christians who are devoted pacifists. In short, an enormous diversity among this large subsection of humanity.
23
I second Jocelyn @13's motion that WTFWJD should be reinstated as a Friend of Slog. It's a great blog.
Thanks for posting about the Catholic-school/rainbow controversy in Toronto, Jocelyn!
Thanks for posting about the Catholic-school/rainbow controversy in Toronto, Jocelyn!
24
From his website:
"God has quickly raised up Damon to be a part of a great spiritual awakening in the United States and throughout the world. He has seen revival break out in churches large and small, from a kaleidoscope of races and cultures, resulting in a phenomenal harvest of souls."
Strange language there. He's harvesting souls? Even if I agreed with him, I would be wary.
"God has quickly raised up Damon to be a part of a great spiritual awakening in the United States and throughout the world. He has seen revival break out in churches large and small, from a kaleidoscope of races and cultures, resulting in a phenomenal harvest of souls."
Strange language there. He's harvesting souls? Even if I agreed with him, I would be wary.
25
@22: yes darling, but here is one thing you overlook: CHRISTIANS ARE ABSOLUTELY RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERY SCRAP OF BIGOTRY I HAVE EVER ENDURED AS A HOMOSEXUAL, AND CONTINUE TO BE, AND SHOW NO SIGN OF STOPPING. so give it a fuckign rest. so please take your "subsection", and drive it off a cliff.
26
Hmmm... This guy seems a tiny bit goofy, eh?
So does that funny troll who posts the condescending and easily refuted comments to all Dan's gay related posts ONLY post when it's Dan, or will he be contributing to the comical, bigoted ignorance of his movement here as well?
So does that funny troll who posts the condescending and easily refuted comments to all Dan's gay related posts ONLY post when it's Dan, or will he be contributing to the comical, bigoted ignorance of his movement here as well?
28
@16 Right on, nicely put. Not a single Christian on earth follows the Bible to the letter. So what we have with people like Damon Thompson are Christians who, as part of the picking and choosing process that they all go through, have decided to let themselves and their lives be defined by hate.
That's what NALTs have to admit if they want to counter Christians like this, and it's probably why so few of them do. Some Christians choose to follow the parts of the Bible that encourage them to help others and live at peace with the world. Others, like Damon Thompson, choose to follow the parts that justify fear, anger, and hate.
That's what NALTs have to admit if they want to counter Christians like this, and it's probably why so few of them do. Some Christians choose to follow the parts of the Bible that encourage them to help others and live at peace with the world. Others, like Damon Thompson, choose to follow the parts that justify fear, anger, and hate.
29
@22 No. All atheism is, is not believing in gods. That's it. As the saying goes, calling atheism a religion is like saying not collecting stamps is a hobby. Where as the vast majority of Christians worldwide believe Jesus was a real historical figure who died for their sins and rose from the dead, along with many, many other assorted beliefs. The label "Christian" ties people together in ways not believing in deities never could. This is why many atheists choose to identify as humanists and skeptics, so to have actual positive value systems to define themselves by. Not believing in deities defines a person just as much as not believing in leprechauns does. Self identifying as Christian, for the vast majority of people who do, (if the word Christian is to have any meaning at all) means you believe in the supernatural, life after death, the resurrection of Jesus, and the bible as a source for holy truth.
And if by "anti-christianism" you mean the belief that Christianity is fucking retarded, it's certainly not silly, because as soon as someone labels themselves a person who takes the existence of a magic sky daddy on faith, you have incredibly good grounds to think that person must not be willing to apply critical thinking to that question, which makes them a moron.
And if by "anti-christianism" you mean the belief that Christianity is fucking retarded, it's certainly not silly, because as soon as someone labels themselves a person who takes the existence of a magic sky daddy on faith, you have incredibly good grounds to think that person must not be willing to apply critical thinking to that question, which makes them a moron.
31
Once again, this is like demanding that Americans apologize for everything stupid that other Americans do. We could go off on some random idiot preacher and all feel smug and self-righteous and self-satisfied for a while, or we could carry on doing the long haul work of building a more just and ethical society for queer kids and everyone else.
Frankly, the anti-religious sentiment from some in the pro-queer corners makes it quite a bit more difficult for kids growing up queer who are seeking to reconcile their faith and their sexuality.
Frankly, the anti-religious sentiment from some in the pro-queer corners makes it quite a bit more difficult for kids growing up queer who are seeking to reconcile their faith and their sexuality.
33
Ovtave, how do you explain the clear cut difference between christians and atheists in that the former have a book of rules to follow (many of these rules are bigoted and/or unethical). Atheists have no such book. So the comparison is quite ridiculous. Your argument hinges on some christians just being bad at being christian (and following the ruled laid out for them).
34
@ 31, we don't have a choice about being American. But we do about our faith.
The whole reason Dan and Paul are challenging good Christians about this is because they're the ones who come here apologizing for the majority of Christians who support this to one degree or another. (Also, it's worked in the past - Civil Rights workers were all the good, real kind of Christian and they challenged the haters who wielded the Bible as their tool to suppress racial equality.)
The whole reason Dan and Paul are challenging good Christians about this is because they're the ones who come here apologizing for the majority of Christians who support this to one degree or another. (Also, it's worked in the past - Civil Rights workers were all the good, real kind of Christian and they challenged the haters who wielded the Bible as their tool to suppress racial equality.)
37
Per the church's (The Ramp, Hamilton AL) website, the congregation views itself "as an offensive army imposing the kingdom of God." Put some emphasis on "offensive army" and "imposing" = YIKES.
38
@25, I'm very sorry to hear that. It's inexcusable. And a very common experience, I realize.
But no doubt you grew up in a country that is overwhelmingly Christian. I'm guessing if you grew up in an overwhelmingly Hindu, Muslim, or, yes, atheist country at the same time you'd have faced some of the same unforgivable bigotry. That bigotry is an ugly aspect of human nature, not innate to a belief system. Today you live in a country that is still overwhelmingly Christian and still has many miles to go but now polls majority support for gay marriage.
This subsection you want to drive off a cliff is two billion people and growing. Including millions of bigots but also many more people who are not. To call these people, as a whole, idiots, morons, etc. is to make oneself ridiculous.
This mentality of "they're all the same" is repugnant no matter where's it coming from (Imagine a black person who lived through Jim Crow who might feel inclined to hate all white people--should they?).
We live in a world inhabited by a wide range of religious people and we always will. Attacking huge, loosely labeled groups of them with rhetorical guns blazing is ignorant, close-minded, and self-defeating.
But no doubt you grew up in a country that is overwhelmingly Christian. I'm guessing if you grew up in an overwhelmingly Hindu, Muslim, or, yes, atheist country at the same time you'd have faced some of the same unforgivable bigotry. That bigotry is an ugly aspect of human nature, not innate to a belief system. Today you live in a country that is still overwhelmingly Christian and still has many miles to go but now polls majority support for gay marriage.
This subsection you want to drive off a cliff is two billion people and growing. Including millions of bigots but also many more people who are not. To call these people, as a whole, idiots, morons, etc. is to make oneself ridiculous.
This mentality of "they're all the same" is repugnant no matter where's it coming from (Imagine a black person who lived through Jim Crow who might feel inclined to hate all white people--should they?).
We live in a world inhabited by a wide range of religious people and we always will. Attacking huge, loosely labeled groups of them with rhetorical guns blazing is ignorant, close-minded, and self-defeating.
39
Man, I said most of what I have to say on Dan's thread. I agree with Octave and Kevin Erikson. I don't stand with this hate-monger, or the people mongering hate right back at him. I stand with the folks forgiving and loving one another. Because I'm Christian.
40
I don't care if they protest the haters. I'd settle for them being as enthusiastic about endorsing and supporting pro-life causes as the haters were. I mean, look at Prop 8. There were a few Christian groups paying lip service to the "no" side, but it was the "yes" side that really had the momentum. Liberal churches don't seem interested in taking action; they seem content to let the conservatives define them.
My theory about this is that organized religion, in some basic way, is really about hate, and without hate it has no energy.
My theory about this is that organized religion, in some basic way, is really about hate, and without hate it has no energy.
42
you're worried about this guy? the world is full of nuts, religious and otherwise - from the video it looks like maybe 20 people there with him. I get it, you can trot out a Christian nut pretty much on demand, but no amount of "good Christian" intervention is going to change these people - they're NUTS - and they'll just get nuttier the more you push at them - I say just deny them the oxygen of attention at every opportunity, including Slog
43
@38 - I have never met an anti-gay athiest. Maybe they're out there, but almost all anti-gay bigotry comes from religion.
44
I'll stand up as one of those good Christians. I'm a Pastor in the Metropolitan Community Church. A church created so that LGBT folk would have a welcoming and accepting place to worship. Here's a link to an article about my recent work to end bullying of LGBT teens.
Some of us are good! :) (And you can know that because we love Dan!)
http://www.csindy.com/colorado/snubbed-i…
Some of us are good! :) (And you can know that because we love Dan!)
http://www.csindy.com/colorado/snubbed-i…
46
@#9: Christians might not have a "responsibility" but it shouldn't be that hard to get a well-known Christian to denounce this (all-too-common) shit. There weren't choruses of boos during his rant. Instead, he was being encouraged by the crowd to continue. Would you expect a similarly enthusiastic response from an atheist crowd at a Richard Dawkins talk? Say he casually said something like, I dunno, "You know, those Christians that are persecuted in China really had it coming for being so damn abnormal." The analogy isn't perfect, but atheists don't typically traffic in this kind of viciousness, and their "leaders"--if there is such a thing in the atheist community--certainly wouldn't be applauded if they did. The fact that he wasn't booed off the stage is why Christianity itself is the issue.
Oh, and please don't call this "fringe." The anti-gay sentiment itself is not at all fringe. He simply said what way too many of them were evidently thinking and feeling already.
Oh, and please don't call this "fringe." The anti-gay sentiment itself is not at all fringe. He simply said what way too many of them were evidently thinking and feeling already.
47
Yes its very easy to scream at LBGT supporting Christians "these are your fellows, prove otherwise" while conveniently ignoring congregations who actively support the LGBT community and do speak out against ass hats like this guy. We do exist, you'd just rather use this as a way to start a pro-atheism, anti-christian rant, which, while it is no where near as offensive as this moron, isn't in any way constructive either.
48
On the next episode of Doctor Who....
Rory and the Doctor get down and NASTY!!!!! I mean it's on every TV show right?
Rory and the Doctor get down and NASTY!!!!! I mean it's on every TV show right?
49
It's true, I never hear atheists harass homosexuals. But right now I'm reading quite a few atheists harass Christians.
50
What is interesting to me is how he stresses how much being "queer" is not normal. That's true if you consider normal to be a synonym of "average" but it is most definitely normal if you think that world means naturally occurring in biology.
The emphesis on being normal and fitting in regardless of who you are is exactly where the self hatred the pastor spoke about. It looks to me he is the self loathing closeted homosexual stereotype.
Below is a link from pubmed of a peer reviewed study showing an objective link between homophobia and arousal to gay porn!
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/87720…
The emphesis on being normal and fitting in regardless of who you are is exactly where the self hatred the pastor spoke about. It looks to me he is the self loathing closeted homosexual stereotype.
Below is a link from pubmed of a peer reviewed study showing an objective link between homophobia and arousal to gay porn!
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/87720…
51
@49: Yes, Christians are such an oppressed class. Why, maybe, with luck and effort, we someday might have a Christian president!
52
@43,
But have you met a pro-gay Christian? I'm guessing you have, though perhaps they didn't introduce themselves that way.
As for atheist homophobia, consider booking your next vacation to China, North Korea, or Russia, or find yourself some dedicated Randian Objectivists to chat with.
I know, I know. Those aren't real atheists, they're Chinese people! (Or Ayn Rand nuts, or whatever). That's the point. Those people don't necessarily represent the kind, compassionate atheist friend of yours any more than a ranting, frothing bigot represents that kind, compassionate Christian friend you might meet.
The world is full of assholes, wearing all sorts of hats. It's also got plenty of nice people in it too, some of whom believe in heaven and all that stuff. Don't hold it against them.
But have you met a pro-gay Christian? I'm guessing you have, though perhaps they didn't introduce themselves that way.
As for atheist homophobia, consider booking your next vacation to China, North Korea, or Russia, or find yourself some dedicated Randian Objectivists to chat with.
I know, I know. Those aren't real atheists, they're Chinese people! (Or Ayn Rand nuts, or whatever). That's the point. Those people don't necessarily represent the kind, compassionate atheist friend of yours any more than a ranting, frothing bigot represents that kind, compassionate Christian friend you might meet.
The world is full of assholes, wearing all sorts of hats. It's also got plenty of nice people in it too, some of whom believe in heaven and all that stuff. Don't hold it against them.
53
@43 I have. My grandfather for one -- "why do they call it 'gay' when 'pervert' is a perfectly good word?" he was a scientist, and is a MILITANT atheist. He used to lure Jehovah's Witnesses to the door so he could torment them.
My father was never that bad, and is much better these days, but used to still be fairly gross about "poofs" without having a religious bone in his body.
And back in the day, Juvenal managed to be vitriolically homophobic without any particular religious motivation for it.
People are unfortunately really good at believing that their personal squicks are moral absolutes. I don't deny a religious institution reinforcing that prejudice can amplify these things and make them more dangerous. But I don't think it's the sole root of where prejudice comes from.
My father was never that bad, and is much better these days, but used to still be fairly gross about "poofs" without having a religious bone in his body.
And back in the day, Juvenal managed to be vitriolically homophobic without any particular religious motivation for it.
People are unfortunately really good at believing that their personal squicks are moral absolutes. I don't deny a religious institution reinforcing that prejudice can amplify these things and make them more dangerous. But I don't think it's the sole root of where prejudice comes from.
54
@52: My problem is with the silence and apathy of liberal Christians. Politicians hear the noisy conservative Christians, then they see the statistic that 76% of Americans are Christian, and they act accordingly. By remaining silent in the face of bigotry, the liberal Christians make themselves part of the problem, not part of the solution.
55
@51 Hence, why I said they're being harassed, not oppressed. Being in the majority does not make one deserving of harassment any more or less than being a minority does.
56
"calling atheism a religion is like saying not collecting stamps is a hobby."
That's a fine point & all, but you should seriously SEE the collection of stamps I don't have! I love not collecting stamps -- it's practically a religion to me.
That's a fine point & all, but you should seriously SEE the collection of stamps I don't have! I love not collecting stamps -- it's practically a religion to me.
57
Also, saying that christians don't have a responsibility to condemn and correct the bad behavior of other christians is basically to say that people don't have a responsibility to anyone or anything. That the very possibility of ethics is denied by the false belief that everything is permissible and nothing is wrong. The world's a pretty crumby place largely because of the lazy and unethical not my problem, not my responsibility attitude that many so-called christians (A christian of all people wouldn't say that we don't have a responsibility to help one another and prevent bad things from happening...sad) here evidence. You sad and pathetic people prove that a christian is literally anyone who says that they are (that's all that it means to be one by your own admittance)...and that being a christian has nothing whatsoever to do with being a good person.
58
@55: Fair enough. I just have little sympathy seeing as so much of the harassment and intolerance goes the other way. When atheists like me aren't constantly derided as immoral and unfit for public office, and aren't constantly told they have a "God-shaped hole in their life," I might be more sympathetic.
60
@58,
You're not immoral and you're fit for public office. And it sounds like you don't have a God-shaped hole in your life. If you don't want to go to church, don't go. It's kind of boring sometimes.
See? Not constant. Now get out there and run for Port Commission.
You're not immoral and you're fit for public office. And it sounds like you don't have a God-shaped hole in your life. If you don't want to go to church, don't go. It's kind of boring sometimes.
See? Not constant. Now get out there and run for Port Commission.
61
@42 - I looked at the pictures on his website and other videos. There are ton of people there, actually, and he preaches at an "organization" (can't bring myself to call it a church) that claims to be training people for ministry.
In poking around the website, his "ministry" has cult written all over it.
Nevertheless, and even though it will do no good, I'm sending an email as on Christian to another...though of two very different kinds.
In poking around the website, his "ministry" has cult written all over it.
Nevertheless, and even though it will do no good, I'm sending an email as on Christian to another...though of two very different kinds.
62
@58 Which is understandable. But those are individuals, not an entire population. And more importantly, those people are assholes who likely have some serious personal issues with themselves and they're just taking it out on someone else. Kinda like Ted Haggard a few years ago.
63
@62: Maybe so, but polling consistently shows majority support for those opinions about atheists. (Most people would rather elect a Muslim or gay person as president than an atheist, according to polls.) You know why? Because Christians have set themselves up as the moral authority in this country, and the loudest, most active Christian groups keep saying those things while the others appear to lend their silent support.
64
@54. Some of us aren't silent or apathetic, and donate are time and money and votes to things like marriage equality and supporting LGBT teens, but that doesn't get us media coverage. Would you rather we spent our time actually volunteering to help and support LGBT issues and causes or screaming to the media about how much we should be supporting those causes.
65
What is a Christian, anyway? It seems like any asshole with a mouth can claim to be a Christian, or even a Christian leader. Yet, the concomitant philosophies and lifestyles vary so widely that it's really hard to recognize these as all being the same thing. There are more variations in so-called Christians than there are in the AKC pedigree book, from Chihuahuas to Great Danes, not to mention some very ugly mutts, like this guy.
Does simply claiming to be something make you one? Not in most other fields.
Any Christian who believes in equality, community, charity and living a loving, modest and nonjudgmental life might not see this man or his congregation as Christian at all.
Would I write to him and tell him this? What would be the point? He wouldn't recognize me as any sort of authority, either. Such is the conundrum.
I'll be marching with the Quaker contingent in the NYC Pride parade again this year, as Quakers have every year, starting with the first one. (Hey, Dan & Terry! Wave to us!) Last year we had at least another dozen denominations march in their own contingents.
You want us to get more press, more public attention? How about hooking us up with a good publicist? We don't have the chops or connections to do this ourselves.
Does simply claiming to be something make you one? Not in most other fields.
Any Christian who believes in equality, community, charity and living a loving, modest and nonjudgmental life might not see this man or his congregation as Christian at all.
Would I write to him and tell him this? What would be the point? He wouldn't recognize me as any sort of authority, either. Such is the conundrum.
I'll be marching with the Quaker contingent in the NYC Pride parade again this year, as Quakers have every year, starting with the first one. (Hey, Dan & Terry! Wave to us!) Last year we had at least another dozen denominations march in their own contingents.
You want us to get more press, more public attention? How about hooking us up with a good publicist? We don't have the chops or connections to do this ourselves.
66
@43 http://friendlyatheist.com/2011/06/10/th…
They're out there, and the atheist community is calling them out on their idiocy. I've seen this atheist homophobia condemed on our own local Ask An Atheist radio show based out of Tacoma, The Atheist Experience tv show out of Austin, and on PZ Myers blog Pharyngula. How unchristian of them, eh?
They're out there, and the atheist community is calling them out on their idiocy. I've seen this atheist homophobia condemed on our own local Ask An Atheist radio show based out of Tacoma, The Atheist Experience tv show out of Austin, and on PZ Myers blog Pharyngula. How unchristian of them, eh?
67
The longer video on the kid who posted the original's blog is even more appalling.
http://ashtonelijah.wordpress.com/2011/0…
http://ashtonelijah.wordpress.com/2011/0…
68
So, what shall we say is the over/under on this pastor's gay private life being exposed? I'm going with Feb. 2013. You know, for Valentine's Day.
69
@64: Well, judging from Prop 8, the conservative groups' approach seems to be the one that actually gets results. So from a purely practical standpoint, I'd say I'd rather have you doing the screaming.
70
@54: I don't know where you get that liberal Christians are silent. I actually prefer me a touch of apathy, churches and communities where being gay is okay without plastering a rainbow flag out front that's bigger than the cross. One of the things I valued about growing up in my suburbanite Roman Catholic church was the heterogenity--church was a place where I got a little bit of liberal and conservative, old and young, rich and poor, white bread suburbanite and immigrant.
I get that gay-friendly churches kind of have to make a big deal about it in the current (yet changing) political and religious environment. They most certainly do make a big deal about it. Their voice seems to me at least as loud as the pro-gay atheists. Maybe louder, because the liberal Christians actually have, y'know, churches to hang the rainbow flags in front of. They've got communities of friends and family bound by a common faith to welcome gays into. And they've certainly played a huge role in tilting public opinion in favor of gay marriage.
I get that gay-friendly churches kind of have to make a big deal about it in the current (yet changing) political and religious environment. They most certainly do make a big deal about it. Their voice seems to me at least as loud as the pro-gay atheists. Maybe louder, because the liberal Christians actually have, y'know, churches to hang the rainbow flags in front of. They've got communities of friends and family bound by a common faith to welcome gays into. And they've certainly played a huge role in tilting public opinion in favor of gay marriage.
71
@38 “This subsection you want to drive off a cliff is two billion people and growing. Including millions of bigots but also many more people who are not. To call these people, as a whole, idiots, morons, etc. is to make oneself ridiculous.”
For the record, I don’t want to murder or eradicate the religious population of the world, that’s simply barbarous and it’s incredibly disparaging and a lie to insinuate that calling a group stupid should be equated with calling for their extermination. And what does the size of a group matter, when determining them fools? Truth isn’t determined by majority vote. Once the majority of people on the planet thought the Sun revolved around the Earth. And one upon a time (now) a majority of the people on the planet thought a magic sky daddy monitored our every thought. Here’s to the day when the majority of the world realizes just how silly both of those ideas are.
For the record, I don’t want to murder or eradicate the religious population of the world, that’s simply barbarous and it’s incredibly disparaging and a lie to insinuate that calling a group stupid should be equated with calling for their extermination. And what does the size of a group matter, when determining them fools? Truth isn’t determined by majority vote. Once the majority of people on the planet thought the Sun revolved around the Earth. And one upon a time (now) a majority of the people on the planet thought a magic sky daddy monitored our every thought. Here’s to the day when the majority of the world realizes just how silly both of those ideas are.
72
Sorry Dan not jumping on this or any other bandwagon. My gay friends know I love them and accept them unconditionally and would do anything for them, that is enough.
Find it interesting how numbnuts here has co-opted the bear drag -- beard, plaid, tattoos -- of the masculine gay, and about as convincingly, too.
Find it interesting how numbnuts here has co-opted the bear drag -- beard, plaid, tattoos -- of the masculine gay, and about as convincingly, too.
74
Dear Paul et al,
I agree with you that this guy is a poor representative of Christianity, and that his views need to be countered. However, I don't think protesting, in the classical sense, would help. I do think it might help in the case of the two men at the pool in Kentucky--that's a government facility that has an obligation to treat everyone equally, and if the pool managers and county government officials don't make this right, they should hear about it, loudly, from NALTS and others.
But this guy and his ilk are carrying out their constitutional rights to free speech and assembly. I don't like what they do with those rights, but as a liberal person who appreciates such freedoms, I know that the same laws that protect him protect me. That's not an excuse to do nothing, but it does mean thinking carefully about how to respond. I do not need to prop up his victim complex (oh, the poor, persecuted "true" Christians). That will do nothing but reinforce his worldview for him and his followers. More generally, I don't think every problem should be addressed with protesting.
Liberal Christians should do what they should be doing anyway: Live the Gospel in the open, inclusive, social-justice loving way they think it should be lived. Make it visible that your church disagrees with this guy. Make sure your preacher is talking about it from the pulpit. Make sure your community knows that there are alternatives to preachers like this guy. As I've said before, the correct answer to bad speech is more speech.
Furthermore, I don't like the idea that my Christianity should be judged based on how I respond to others' interpretations of Christianity. There are always going to be right-wing loons who use faith to prop up their (non)arguments. I cannot and will not spend my life standing outside their churches with a sign. I will spend my life offering an alternative--to my community, to my friends, to my legislators, etc. I will protest when I think it is appropriate, I will write letters when I think it is appropriate, I will give money when I think it is appropriate. But I will not express my Christianity primarily as a response to someone else's pitiful imitation of it.
More...
I agree with you that this guy is a poor representative of Christianity, and that his views need to be countered. However, I don't think protesting, in the classical sense, would help. I do think it might help in the case of the two men at the pool in Kentucky--that's a government facility that has an obligation to treat everyone equally, and if the pool managers and county government officials don't make this right, they should hear about it, loudly, from NALTS and others.
But this guy and his ilk are carrying out their constitutional rights to free speech and assembly. I don't like what they do with those rights, but as a liberal person who appreciates such freedoms, I know that the same laws that protect him protect me. That's not an excuse to do nothing, but it does mean thinking carefully about how to respond. I do not need to prop up his victim complex (oh, the poor, persecuted "true" Christians). That will do nothing but reinforce his worldview for him and his followers. More generally, I don't think every problem should be addressed with protesting.
Liberal Christians should do what they should be doing anyway: Live the Gospel in the open, inclusive, social-justice loving way they think it should be lived. Make it visible that your church disagrees with this guy. Make sure your preacher is talking about it from the pulpit. Make sure your community knows that there are alternatives to preachers like this guy. As I've said before, the correct answer to bad speech is more speech.
Furthermore, I don't like the idea that my Christianity should be judged based on how I respond to others' interpretations of Christianity. There are always going to be right-wing loons who use faith to prop up their (non)arguments. I cannot and will not spend my life standing outside their churches with a sign. I will spend my life offering an alternative--to my community, to my friends, to my legislators, etc. I will protest when I think it is appropriate, I will write letters when I think it is appropriate, I will give money when I think it is appropriate. But I will not express my Christianity primarily as a response to someone else's pitiful imitation of it.
75
I'm kind of surprised to read so many comments dismissing this guy as "fringe." Yeah, he is for Seattle, but he'd fit in real well where I grew up in Oklahoma. You'd hear this sort of thing in churches, as well as from ultra-religous *public school* teachers. Hell, this guy's rant could have been plagerized from the filth that my 9th grade English teacher spewed all the time.
I clearly remember the uncomfortable and/or shocked faces when I argued for marriage equality as part of persuasive writing class. Preachers and teachers had already pounded this crap into the minds of my classmates. It was and is not fringe. "Good, loving, open-minded Christians" were and still are "fringe" in many parts of the country.
(And that is why I bought my high school library a copy of the It Gets Better book. Hopefully the librarian will actually let it get to the shelves.)
I clearly remember the uncomfortable and/or shocked faces when I argued for marriage equality as part of persuasive writing class. Preachers and teachers had already pounded this crap into the minds of my classmates. It was and is not fringe. "Good, loving, open-minded Christians" were and still are "fringe" in many parts of the country.
(And that is why I bought my high school library a copy of the It Gets Better book. Hopefully the librarian will actually let it get to the shelves.)
76
Just want to thank OuterCow for succinctly saying a lot of the things that went through my mind while reading this thread!
77
@75 - I also grew up in Oklahoma and Texas (a Christian at the time) and agree: this is definitely common language and sentiment in that neck of the woods. Even the most compassionate Christians I met - across many denominations - were sincerely and vitriolically homophobic, whether outspoken about it or not.
78
I made it up to the phrase "because he is dealing with the demonic force of homosexu..." and I shut it off.
As a former West Virginian, I am here to tell you that those guys are a dime a dozen. And it is real Christians job to take him down. Not mine. I already survived gay teenagehood in rural xtian america.
As a former West Virginian, I am here to tell you that those guys are a dime a dozen. And it is real Christians job to take him down. Not mine. I already survived gay teenagehood in rural xtian america.
80
I am exgay and a Christian. Everytime I get a chance to re-direct a man or woman who porfesses their faith in this manner, I do so. This is not the model of christianity and sounds more like a vindictive personality targeting a minority group and ranting. I apologize to anyone who sees this and thinks this is how God is.
81
I need to add that progressive mainliners like myself can't get media attention no matter how freaking hard we try? Neither can progressive catholics with the notable exception of Stephen Colbert. Many people in the media world are just not religiously literate enough to distinguish between an evangelical christian and a progressive mainliner, and so they lump us all together. This is not that dissimilar to people who can't tell the difference between a sunni and shiite.
83
@80 what is the exgay experience for you? do you now consider yourself straight? are you attracted to the opposite sex? are you dating/married? and does that person know? or are you abstinent?
86
Hi Pastor Thompson,
I just wanted to let my voice be known: You're anti-gay rant was totally non-biblical, hateful, hurtful, and out of bounds. (http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…)
I urge you to retract these remarks, repent, and approach the discussion of sexuality in our culture appropriately.
Thanks,
Jimmy
I just wanted to let my voice be known: You're anti-gay rant was totally non-biblical, hateful, hurtful, and out of bounds. (http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…)
I urge you to retract these remarks, repent, and approach the discussion of sexuality in our culture appropriately.
Thanks,
Jimmy
88
I just emailed him this:
I watched a video of you getting teenagers to "pray away the gay" in your "church". I don't think that my opinion that this is hatred disguised as religion is going to change your opinion. But I wanted to register my disgust at the psychological manipulation you employ against gay kids in your ministry. I think you are harming these kids far more than you realize.
As a former member of your "ministry" said: "I knew in my heart that these kids would only hate themselves even more a week later when they caught themselves still averting their glance from a member of the same-sex."
http://ashtonelijah.wordpress.com/2011/0…
Just so you know, I'm a happy queer woman who's been in a relationship with the woman I hope someday to marry for 3 and 1/2 years. I have a lot of friends. If you're somehow jealous of the gay people who have it good, I'm sure I don't need to remind you that a lot of straight people have it good also.
Here's hoping that someday your heart and mind get enlightened.
Sincerely,
I watched a video of you getting teenagers to "pray away the gay" in your "church". I don't think that my opinion that this is hatred disguised as religion is going to change your opinion. But I wanted to register my disgust at the psychological manipulation you employ against gay kids in your ministry. I think you are harming these kids far more than you realize.
As a former member of your "ministry" said: "I knew in my heart that these kids would only hate themselves even more a week later when they caught themselves still averting their glance from a member of the same-sex."
http://ashtonelijah.wordpress.com/2011/0…
Just so you know, I'm a happy queer woman who's been in a relationship with the woman I hope someday to marry for 3 and 1/2 years. I have a lot of friends. If you're somehow jealous of the gay people who have it good, I'm sure I don't need to remind you that a lot of straight people have it good also.
Here's hoping that someday your heart and mind get enlightened.
Sincerely,
89
I sent over my comments to him. In five years, he'll probably be out and hopefully will be working on repairing the damage his ministry has done. That's my hope, anyway.
90
@9,
Funny you should mention the whole Muslim thing because it seems that Christians and other conservatives are always bitching about how Muslims don't speak out about Muslim extremists. Of course, a lot of Muslims do speak out against extremists but apparently if they're not all constantly out in the streets over it then they're clearly in tacit support.
Funny you should mention the whole Muslim thing because it seems that Christians and other conservatives are always bitching about how Muslims don't speak out about Muslim extremists. Of course, a lot of Muslims do speak out against extremists but apparently if they're not all constantly out in the streets over it then they're clearly in tacit support.
91
Thank you, Kevin, SNC, Brooklyn Reader, Octave.
Our Quaker Meeting has declined to continue holding legally binding weddings until we can do so for every marriage under our care, regardless of the couple's genders. (We continue to celebrate the religious and community side of marriage, but you'll have to go to city hall as well if you want to make it legal.) Our attenders and members spent hours talking to other protesters and to legislators during the recent debate over putting an anti-gay-marriage constitutional amendment to the vote in Minnesota. We lost, and it's going to the voters in 18 months. We just had a meeting tonight to talk about our strategy going forward.
Admittedly there aren't a ton of Quakers in the world, and not all of them identify as Christian. We don't evangelize. Even so, it seems to me that we're making all the noise we can without literally devoting our lives to standing outside other churches with signs and bullhorns. I agree with SNC--I don't want to define my religious practice as a long series of shouting matches. Given all that, what more would you like us to do? What strategy suggestions do you have for us? We could use some more good ones.
(Telling me that I'm an idiot for belonging to a religious community doesn't count as a helpful strategy suggestion, BTW.)
Our Quaker Meeting has declined to continue holding legally binding weddings until we can do so for every marriage under our care, regardless of the couple's genders. (We continue to celebrate the religious and community side of marriage, but you'll have to go to city hall as well if you want to make it legal.) Our attenders and members spent hours talking to other protesters and to legislators during the recent debate over putting an anti-gay-marriage constitutional amendment to the vote in Minnesota. We lost, and it's going to the voters in 18 months. We just had a meeting tonight to talk about our strategy going forward.
Admittedly there aren't a ton of Quakers in the world, and not all of them identify as Christian. We don't evangelize. Even so, it seems to me that we're making all the noise we can without literally devoting our lives to standing outside other churches with signs and bullhorns. I agree with SNC--I don't want to define my religious practice as a long series of shouting matches. Given all that, what more would you like us to do? What strategy suggestions do you have for us? We could use some more good ones.
(Telling me that I'm an idiot for belonging to a religious community doesn't count as a helpful strategy suggestion, BTW.)
92
Dear Christians on this thread, "Take your boot off my throat." is not hate-speech. Playing the victim is transparently manipulative and dishonest (@38 made me want to puke). You aren't fooling anyone. So own up. Christian belief is the reason gay people have been beaten, murdered, and oppressed throughout American history. By choosing to be a moral person, and entirely separately choosing to be a Christian, you adopt a responsibility to try to fix your religion's fucked up shit.
A guy calls us the devil, and basically calls for our murders, we say, 'I don't want to be murdered!', and Christians say, 'That's hate speech! You're exactly the same as that guy!' It fucking insane.
A guy calls us the devil, and basically calls for our murders, we say, 'I don't want to be murdered!', and Christians say, 'That's hate speech! You're exactly the same as that guy!' It fucking insane.
93
@92: Christian belief is the reason gay people have been beaten, murdered, and oppressed throughout American history.
It's also the reason I had a Presbyterian support group for gays and the Archdiocesan Gay and Lesbian Outreach Mass to attend when I was in college in Chicago. It's the reason I actually had a supportive environment from the moment I stepped out of the closet in high school--I was surrounded by people who were taught by their Roman Catholic faith to love and forgive and see the good in everybody, and that's what they taught me.
The supportive environment I experienced wasn't "entirely separate" from our religion, it was deeply intertwined with it. It's our religion, the vessel of the expression of our morality. When we find it difficult for to love and accept, it's our Christian faith that points us in the *right* direction--that's why we freely choose to identify as Christian. That doesn't mean you can't be a moral person without Christianity or anything like that, and that doesn't mean that being Christian will make you moral, but for how much Christianity helps myself and many people I know be better people, I'm gonna stand up for it.
A guy calls us the devil, and basically calls for our murders, we say, 'I don't want to be murdered!'
But dude, saying that isn't what's bothering me. I don't want to be murdered, either, and I've got plenty of more productive channels to fight through to protect myself than sending an email directly to the folks who want to murder me. What bothers me is the suggestion that I should spend my time and attention writing letters to the worst bigots or I'm part of the problem and "standing with" them just by identifying as Christian. Fuck that. I'm a gay Christian man and this douchebag is threatening to murder me too and still I say FUCK THAT, and fuck the folks who would say I'm associated with this douchebag just because we both call ourselves Christians.
I'll do as I've continued to do the past eighteen years of being out of the closet--when it comes time to talk religion, I'll focus my time and attention on my fellow Christians who may have their doubts about gay people but aren't making anti-homo douchebaggery the center of their faith, and I'll continue to point out that the actual center of our faith that most of us value is love, forgiveness and communion. Because I've seen over and over that that actually works in changing hearts and minds about homosexuality.
But y'know what convincing people Christianity and homosexuality are at odds get us? Lots and lots of people who are gonna side with their Christianity instead of homosexuals. Because for all the millions who know that their faith has done good things for them, you're setting gay rights at odds with all that goodness. That's not effective, it's a bullshit lie.
'You're exactly the same as that guy!'
No, Slog is very different. Slog, as far as I can tell, contains people who actually might give a rats ass if I speak out, folks I'd like to share a toke with if I ever make it to Seattle, folks in whom my interest *doesn't* begin and end with telling them they're wrong. It's why folks here get my attention, while hate-mongering preachers don't.
I'll tell anyone who stands a chance of listening that Christianity isn't at odds with homosexuality, that rather it teaches us to approach gay sexuality with love and forgiveness just as we are to approach everything else. I can and do tell this to Christians who stand a chance of listening, but I'll tell it to atheists, too. I don't think you have to be Christian, but the only folks you help by conflating "Christianity" with "anti-gay" are are the anti-gay Christian bigots. So hell yeah, I'll speak out against that idea here.
More...
It's also the reason I had a Presbyterian support group for gays and the Archdiocesan Gay and Lesbian Outreach Mass to attend when I was in college in Chicago. It's the reason I actually had a supportive environment from the moment I stepped out of the closet in high school--I was surrounded by people who were taught by their Roman Catholic faith to love and forgive and see the good in everybody, and that's what they taught me.
The supportive environment I experienced wasn't "entirely separate" from our religion, it was deeply intertwined with it. It's our religion, the vessel of the expression of our morality. When we find it difficult for to love and accept, it's our Christian faith that points us in the *right* direction--that's why we freely choose to identify as Christian. That doesn't mean you can't be a moral person without Christianity or anything like that, and that doesn't mean that being Christian will make you moral, but for how much Christianity helps myself and many people I know be better people, I'm gonna stand up for it.
A guy calls us the devil, and basically calls for our murders, we say, 'I don't want to be murdered!'
But dude, saying that isn't what's bothering me. I don't want to be murdered, either, and I've got plenty of more productive channels to fight through to protect myself than sending an email directly to the folks who want to murder me. What bothers me is the suggestion that I should spend my time and attention writing letters to the worst bigots or I'm part of the problem and "standing with" them just by identifying as Christian. Fuck that. I'm a gay Christian man and this douchebag is threatening to murder me too and still I say FUCK THAT, and fuck the folks who would say I'm associated with this douchebag just because we both call ourselves Christians.
I'll do as I've continued to do the past eighteen years of being out of the closet--when it comes time to talk religion, I'll focus my time and attention on my fellow Christians who may have their doubts about gay people but aren't making anti-homo douchebaggery the center of their faith, and I'll continue to point out that the actual center of our faith that most of us value is love, forgiveness and communion. Because I've seen over and over that that actually works in changing hearts and minds about homosexuality.
But y'know what convincing people Christianity and homosexuality are at odds get us? Lots and lots of people who are gonna side with their Christianity instead of homosexuals. Because for all the millions who know that their faith has done good things for them, you're setting gay rights at odds with all that goodness. That's not effective, it's a bullshit lie.
'You're exactly the same as that guy!'
No, Slog is very different. Slog, as far as I can tell, contains people who actually might give a rats ass if I speak out, folks I'd like to share a toke with if I ever make it to Seattle, folks in whom my interest *doesn't* begin and end with telling them they're wrong. It's why folks here get my attention, while hate-mongering preachers don't.
I'll tell anyone who stands a chance of listening that Christianity isn't at odds with homosexuality, that rather it teaches us to approach gay sexuality with love and forgiveness just as we are to approach everything else. I can and do tell this to Christians who stand a chance of listening, but I'll tell it to atheists, too. I don't think you have to be Christian, but the only folks you help by conflating "Christianity" with "anti-gay" are are the anti-gay Christian bigots. So hell yeah, I'll speak out against that idea here.
94
The problem with the "moderate" Christians speaking out against someone like this is that there is no reasonable way to do so. No sane, reasoned, logical human being, when presented with the extremely conflicting evidence in the holy book of Christianity, should be able to stand up and give hateful speeches like that. I'm not Christian, but I understand where the moderates come from. When you pick and choose verses of the Bible to care about and follow, you're missing the point. Moderate Christians have the cognitive ability to figure this out, but assholes like Mr. Thompson simply lack the IQ.
95
So I'm no longer a christian but I've got a couple things to say. First of all you guys need to watch this documentary which is called "Fish out of Water" which is lgbt friendly christians explaining how the bible verses specified to damn the homos are incorrectly interpreted. Second of all (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/…), ok so I couldn't find the better article about this but I've been saying this almost my entire life, and they've now, at least in my opinion, proven the historical Jesus lead an actively homosexual life style. So how does that sit with you?
There was a poll in the UK where they asked christians who believed homosexuality was wrong, would having it absolutely 100% proven to them that Jesus Christ lead an actively homosexual lifestyle, would it change their beliefs? Less than 1/4 said that they might be more open minded to homosexuals, 1/4 said they would renounce Christianity before they would accept homosexuality as being morally right, and half said it wouldn't change their views at all. So lets be real here, you people use the religion thing as an excuse for your hatred.
There was a poll in the UK where they asked christians who believed homosexuality was wrong, would having it absolutely 100% proven to them that Jesus Christ lead an actively homosexual lifestyle, would it change their beliefs? Less than 1/4 said that they might be more open minded to homosexuals, 1/4 said they would renounce Christianity before they would accept homosexuality as being morally right, and half said it wouldn't change their views at all. So lets be real here, you people use the religion thing as an excuse for your hatred.
97
If you call yourself a Christian and you let fuckers like Damon Thompson go without saying something, you are part of the problem, because you're standing with him and his monstrous behavior.
Paul, yes, Thompson is a monster filled with hate but I'm curious...does this also apply to people who call themselves Muslims and Muslim Damon Thompsons?
Paul, yes, Thompson is a monster filled with hate but I'm curious...does this also apply to people who call themselves Muslims and Muslim Damon Thompsons?
98
Meanwhile, instead of waiting for the NALTs to act, can somebody please OUT this guy?
He's got self-hating-closet-case written across his forehead.
Somewhere out there is a rentboy who knows the truth for sure ...
Meanwhile, instead of waiting for the NALTs to act, can somebody please OUT this guy?
He's got self-hating-closet-case written across his forehead.
Somewhere out there is a rentboy who knows the truth for sure ...
99
jackditch, octave, brooklyn reader, et al. I also want to say thank you. You are more articulate than I am on this topic, and I so appreciate you speaking up here. I did write this guy a letter, but these sorts of posts on slog drive me absolutely nuts. Jesus and gay are not mutually exclusive.
100
Perfect title, Paul. And, you're totally right. Christians have the responsibility to assert that these ridiculous and offensive speeches are NOT ACCEPTABLE. So....I want to see some people standing up on the side of tolerance and love. Right now.
101
Whatever. "The Gays" seem to have no requirement to "fucking prove" that flaming fuck-anything-that-moves homos are misrepresenting them; in fact, anyone who uses that model to advocate, say, against gay marriage, is generally presumed to be a bigot. This is the same shit, different shoe.
102
99: these sorts of posts on slog drive me absolutely nuts. Jesus and gay are not mutually exclusive.
They're not mutually exclusive according to Christians who are liberal, but they are obviously mutually exclusive to Christians who are conservative. I think most people have a worldview and they will find something in Christianity (or another religion) which fits with that.
I'm of two minds with posts like this on Slog, typically by Dan. One one hand, the near-constant bashing gets tiring. But on the other, I understand where it's coming from. If I was gay and was the target of demonization and hatred and repression by conservative Christians, I'd probably feel like hitting back too, even if my punches didn't always take care to distinguish between liberal and conservative Christians.
They're not mutually exclusive according to Christians who are liberal, but they are obviously mutually exclusive to Christians who are conservative. I think most people have a worldview and they will find something in Christianity (or another religion) which fits with that.
I'm of two minds with posts like this on Slog, typically by Dan. One one hand, the near-constant bashing gets tiring. But on the other, I understand where it's coming from. If I was gay and was the target of demonization and hatred and repression by conservative Christians, I'd probably feel like hitting back too, even if my punches didn't always take care to distinguish between liberal and conservative Christians.
104
Every single person in that audience should be going to jail for hate crimes. the orator should probably be going into therapy for being f*cking insane.
105
Actually, just re-watching that all I'm seeing is Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. Poor insane crazy motherfucker. I hope he gets help.
I stick by what I think about the audience and extend that to anyone who has helped get this man on stage.
I stick by what I think about the audience and extend that to anyone who has helped get this man on stage.
106
Good evening,
Once again, I am late to the party, but I wanted to respond to MN's request for suggestions of things NALTs (and, I presume, NALT congregations) can do to make things better for LGBT people. Here are my thoughts:
1. If you belong to a church that has made a commitment to be "open and affirming" or "more light" or "reconciling" to the gay community, be very public about it. Make sure people--LGBT people, other Christians, the larger community--know where you stand. Make it obvious in your exterior and interior signage, make it obvious in your bulletins, make it obvious on your web site (VERY important--this is a big way people find churches). Advertise in gay and alternative media (seriously). Make an announcement of explicit welcome at the start of your services. (My church does this at every service.)
2. If you belong to a church that could make a formal commitment to welcoming LGBT people but hasn't (yet), help your church get to making that commitment. Take it upon yourself to work with others and get it done. Then publicize it and live up to it.
3. If you belong to a church that is fairly liberal but struggles with whether to welcome gay people (especially non-celibate gays) into the ministry and whether to officiate at same-gender weddings/commitment ceremonies, work within your congregation and denomination to get this fixed. This is a big deal. It's one of the reasons liberal congregations have a tough time organizing on a denominational level on these issues, particularly marriage equality. (Many, if not most, people might be on board, but the official church/denomination rules sometimes are not. Yet.) Push to change the rules so your clergy are not risking their ordination (and with it, their livelihoods and professional futures) by supporting gay colleagues and congregants and so your church can hire whomever you want, regardless of sexual orientation.
4. Encourage your preacher, priest, rabbi or imam to talk about LGBT equality--marriage, workplace rights, bullying--from the pulpit. Ask him or her to use the authority of the position to put these issues directly in front of your congregation. (Maybe we should pick a weekend/two weekends and encourage all NALTs to ask their pastors to preach on an LGBT issue that week? I was leaning toward early October, around National Coming Out Day, but that gets really close to Yom Kippur and, I think, the start of Ramadan, so it might be tougher for our Jewish and Muslim compatriots to get a special sermon preached then.)
5. Make sure your church includes LGBT issues in its theology classes for both kids and adults. Sponsor speakers on religious support for marriage equality, in particular. (If your church does sexuality education, which mine does, make sure it addresses sexual orientation and gender identity in a positive way.) Make sure that if you bring a speaker in, you open the presentation to other churches and the larger community. This public witness is part of how you counter right-wing Christianist bigotry--by vocally offering an alternative view--without stoking their victimhood complexes.
6. Connect with your state LGBT equality organization. Let them know you are out there. And be out there--round up the people willing to testify in your state house, write letters to the editor, show up at rallies, make phone calls, write and call legislators. Get your NALT posse together, and offer your help. (Given the realities of politics, it helps to have seniors, parents of young children and people of color speaking up in favor of marriage equality--and noting in their letters, calls or testimonies that they are church goers. This goes directly to counter the impression that all people of faith, but particularly those who are older, the parents of young children and non-white are all on the other side.) Consider asking your congregation to pass a resolution in support of the freedom to marry, particularly if your state is in play.
7. Make sure LGBT people--especially those with children--feel welcome at your church. Do not assume they do. Ask. Gently. All the formal statements of support mean nothing if they feel like they've climbed into a fishbowl when they enter your sanctuary. I've heard this more from gay parents than from gay people without kids, for what it's worth. It seems that some people find accepting gay families with kids tougher than accepting singles or couples. Make sure church events--picnics, dances, family nights--are inclusive, and obviously so, so no one has to wonder if it's OK to attend.
As I see it, there are four points of view on LGBT equality issues (and most issues, really): Strong support, weak support, weak opposition and strong opposition. In the case of marriage rights, the support tends to be weak, and the opposition tends to be strong. People who object tend to REALLY object. I don't think that shaming/bullying/complaining to them/pointing out that they are wrong is going to help. To them, gays and NALTs are enemies, literally. We NALTs are viewed as false prophets. We cannot force them to change their thinking. We can only offer opportunities to engage and hope they see--literally--that we are "real" Christians, including our LGBT members and clergy.
I am more inclined to focus on moving strong supporters to action, moving weak supporters to strong support (by making it clear to them why this matters and why their stronger support can get it done) and, as much as possible, inviting weak opponents to cross over to support or (at least) neutrality. This fight is not taking place in the debate society. It's not about scoring points against opponents by having the shiniest, most rational arguments. It's about giving people new ideas and tools to make their support count. It's not about demonstrating my "righteousness" or how "my" God is better than "their" God. It's mostly "show, don't tell"
and extend an invitation. To me, this is one of the most important public roles NALTs can play.
More...
Once again, I am late to the party, but I wanted to respond to MN's request for suggestions of things NALTs (and, I presume, NALT congregations) can do to make things better for LGBT people. Here are my thoughts:
1. If you belong to a church that has made a commitment to be "open and affirming" or "more light" or "reconciling" to the gay community, be very public about it. Make sure people--LGBT people, other Christians, the larger community--know where you stand. Make it obvious in your exterior and interior signage, make it obvious in your bulletins, make it obvious on your web site (VERY important--this is a big way people find churches). Advertise in gay and alternative media (seriously). Make an announcement of explicit welcome at the start of your services. (My church does this at every service.)
2. If you belong to a church that could make a formal commitment to welcoming LGBT people but hasn't (yet), help your church get to making that commitment. Take it upon yourself to work with others and get it done. Then publicize it and live up to it.
3. If you belong to a church that is fairly liberal but struggles with whether to welcome gay people (especially non-celibate gays) into the ministry and whether to officiate at same-gender weddings/commitment ceremonies, work within your congregation and denomination to get this fixed. This is a big deal. It's one of the reasons liberal congregations have a tough time organizing on a denominational level on these issues, particularly marriage equality. (Many, if not most, people might be on board, but the official church/denomination rules sometimes are not. Yet.) Push to change the rules so your clergy are not risking their ordination (and with it, their livelihoods and professional futures) by supporting gay colleagues and congregants and so your church can hire whomever you want, regardless of sexual orientation.
4. Encourage your preacher, priest, rabbi or imam to talk about LGBT equality--marriage, workplace rights, bullying--from the pulpit. Ask him or her to use the authority of the position to put these issues directly in front of your congregation. (Maybe we should pick a weekend/two weekends and encourage all NALTs to ask their pastors to preach on an LGBT issue that week? I was leaning toward early October, around National Coming Out Day, but that gets really close to Yom Kippur and, I think, the start of Ramadan, so it might be tougher for our Jewish and Muslim compatriots to get a special sermon preached then.)
5. Make sure your church includes LGBT issues in its theology classes for both kids and adults. Sponsor speakers on religious support for marriage equality, in particular. (If your church does sexuality education, which mine does, make sure it addresses sexual orientation and gender identity in a positive way.) Make sure that if you bring a speaker in, you open the presentation to other churches and the larger community. This public witness is part of how you counter right-wing Christianist bigotry--by vocally offering an alternative view--without stoking their victimhood complexes.
6. Connect with your state LGBT equality organization. Let them know you are out there. And be out there--round up the people willing to testify in your state house, write letters to the editor, show up at rallies, make phone calls, write and call legislators. Get your NALT posse together, and offer your help. (Given the realities of politics, it helps to have seniors, parents of young children and people of color speaking up in favor of marriage equality--and noting in their letters, calls or testimonies that they are church goers. This goes directly to counter the impression that all people of faith, but particularly those who are older, the parents of young children and non-white are all on the other side.) Consider asking your congregation to pass a resolution in support of the freedom to marry, particularly if your state is in play.
7. Make sure LGBT people--especially those with children--feel welcome at your church. Do not assume they do. Ask. Gently. All the formal statements of support mean nothing if they feel like they've climbed into a fishbowl when they enter your sanctuary. I've heard this more from gay parents than from gay people without kids, for what it's worth. It seems that some people find accepting gay families with kids tougher than accepting singles or couples. Make sure church events--picnics, dances, family nights--are inclusive, and obviously so, so no one has to wonder if it's OK to attend.
As I see it, there are four points of view on LGBT equality issues (and most issues, really): Strong support, weak support, weak opposition and strong opposition. In the case of marriage rights, the support tends to be weak, and the opposition tends to be strong. People who object tend to REALLY object. I don't think that shaming/bullying/complaining to them/pointing out that they are wrong is going to help. To them, gays and NALTs are enemies, literally. We NALTs are viewed as false prophets. We cannot force them to change their thinking. We can only offer opportunities to engage and hope they see--literally--that we are "real" Christians, including our LGBT members and clergy.
I am more inclined to focus on moving strong supporters to action, moving weak supporters to strong support (by making it clear to them why this matters and why their stronger support can get it done) and, as much as possible, inviting weak opponents to cross over to support or (at least) neutrality. This fight is not taking place in the debate society. It's not about scoring points against opponents by having the shiniest, most rational arguments. It's about giving people new ideas and tools to make their support count. It's not about demonstrating my "righteousness" or how "my" God is better than "their" God. It's mostly "show, don't tell"
and extend an invitation. To me, this is one of the most important public roles NALTs can play.
107
@91, MN -- What a wonderful idea! Can you please tell me the name of your meeting? I'd love to present your meeting's minute to our own, Brooklyn Monthly Meeting. Or please send it to our Clerk. Actually, your meeting should circulate it as widely as possible. Then, all we need is some publicity...
@106 Thank you for the well thought-out, well-presented action plan. I think you will help many.
We "unprogrammed"* (this refers to the nature of our services and hierarchical structure, or lack of it) Quakers have it easier in some ways. We don't have a pastor or minister to convince. The body is the Meeting. On the other hand, we can't pass any minutes in our business meetings if anyone present objects and can't be persuaded to "stand aside". It can take months or years to change, but persistence is the key.
To all of you who have reluctantly given up on organized religion because it's backwards, irrelevant, oppressive, unchanging: it doesn't have to be that way. If you still have spiritual leanings, miss some sense of community, and want to be the kind of person who expresses their religion by doing things, find a denomination that needs you, and contribute your time, energy, voice and spirit to helping them forward. If all the progressive people are absent, what do you think happens to any institution? Many churches, congregations and meetings are at tipping points now. Your voice may change something. To those of you who have emphatically given up on religion, this message is not for you, so please don't be offended.
_________________
* (There are also "programmed" Quaker meetings/churches, which can be indistinguishable from typical Protestant churches. Schism to the max!)
@106 Thank you for the well thought-out, well-presented action plan. I think you will help many.
We "unprogrammed"* (this refers to the nature of our services and hierarchical structure, or lack of it) Quakers have it easier in some ways. We don't have a pastor or minister to convince. The body is the Meeting. On the other hand, we can't pass any minutes in our business meetings if anyone present objects and can't be persuaded to "stand aside". It can take months or years to change, but persistence is the key.
To all of you who have reluctantly given up on organized religion because it's backwards, irrelevant, oppressive, unchanging: it doesn't have to be that way. If you still have spiritual leanings, miss some sense of community, and want to be the kind of person who expresses their religion by doing things, find a denomination that needs you, and contribute your time, energy, voice and spirit to helping them forward. If all the progressive people are absent, what do you think happens to any institution? Many churches, congregations and meetings are at tipping points now. Your voice may change something. To those of you who have emphatically given up on religion, this message is not for you, so please don't be offended.
_________________
* (There are also "programmed" Quaker meetings/churches, which can be indistinguishable from typical Protestant churches. Schism to the max!)
108
@91 I found it myself, or rather, Google did.
http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display…
and the minute itself:
http://www.tcfm.org/article/minute-for-m…
I'm not sure whether this has come up in our Meeting, but I'll be at our next business meeting with this in hand. Of course, if our legislature would pass the law removing that inequity from the books, I won't have to.
http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display…
and the minute itself:
http://www.tcfm.org/article/minute-for-m…
I'm not sure whether this has come up in our Meeting, but I'll be at our next business meeting with this in hand. Of course, if our legislature would pass the law removing that inequity from the books, I won't have to.
109
Comparing the fairly specific set of beliefs that constitute Christianity (belief in omniscient, omnipotent, immanent, transcendent deity; belief in Jesus Christ as the son of god, and arguably also god, and the messiah; adherence to a code of values centered around the concept of sin; et cetera) with atheism is deliberately dishonest.
An Atheist could be a liberal humanist, he could be a Buddhist, he could be a communist, he could even be a silent atheist in a Christian congregation.
Atheism is an attitude towards the universe opposite of theism. By categories, Christianity is a very specific set of beliefs within all the possibilities of theism. If you don't believe me, then compare the creed of Christianity with that of any of the other varied theistic religions. Even within theism, there is much room for disagreement, obviously. But an atheistic communist is not and can never be the same thing as an atheistic liberal humanist. I'm sick of this false dichotomy Christians always drag out to demonize liberal humanists in the worst possible light.
However, I could make a fairly compelling argument illustrating that the strategies and paradigms to be found within Stalinism are effectively the same as those employed by political Christianity. Despite typically being separated into categories by difference on the issue of theism, both are effectively autocratic, power-centralizing, proselytizing personality cults promising a vision of utopia (the worker's utopia for the one, and heaven for the other), if you just follow their message.
An Atheist could be a liberal humanist, he could be a Buddhist, he could be a communist, he could even be a silent atheist in a Christian congregation.
Atheism is an attitude towards the universe opposite of theism. By categories, Christianity is a very specific set of beliefs within all the possibilities of theism. If you don't believe me, then compare the creed of Christianity with that of any of the other varied theistic religions. Even within theism, there is much room for disagreement, obviously. But an atheistic communist is not and can never be the same thing as an atheistic liberal humanist. I'm sick of this false dichotomy Christians always drag out to demonize liberal humanists in the worst possible light.
However, I could make a fairly compelling argument illustrating that the strategies and paradigms to be found within Stalinism are effectively the same as those employed by political Christianity. Despite typically being separated into categories by difference on the issue of theism, both are effectively autocratic, power-centralizing, proselytizing personality cults promising a vision of utopia (the worker's utopia for the one, and heaven for the other), if you just follow their message.
110
Seattle First Baptist Church marches in the Pride parade every year. They also sponsor a wonderful youth choir called Diverse Harmony, for queer kids, allies, and whoever. My mom attends this church. I am an atheist, and I often think that by remaining Christian, she is doing the REAL work that needs to be done (working within the church to bring people's minds around), while my atheism gives me the easier path.
111
Yep, he's awful. The idea that being gay is somehow sinful is awful, the way gays are treated in this country is awful, and unchristian, no argument from me.
What would you accept as proof of people denouncing this horrid bullshit? A youtube video? Pro equality Christian organizations? Christian churches marrying same sex couples and ordaining lgbt folks? Oh wait, that all happens, it just doesn't make this blog.
What would you accept as proof of people denouncing this horrid bullshit? A youtube video? Pro equality Christian organizations? Christian churches marrying same sex couples and ordaining lgbt folks? Oh wait, that all happens, it just doesn't make this blog.
112
the word christian means christ like and do you remember the braclets that had the initials wwjd on them so as christians we compare our actions to what would jesus do well pastor damon thompson is just standing up for jesus because apparently the people on this web sight if u want to call it that dont have time to stand up for jesus because there to busy trying to rewrite the bible which is the longest book to be in print and doesnt need your help on rewriting it because it clearly states if you would take the time to read it at the beginning god made man and made woman to be with man not man with man or woman with woman
113
I get so upset when I see people bash others for their beliefs. As a Christian myself, I do believe what he is saying is the truth. The tattoos are part of his testimony, as are mine. Its not like everyone if fortunate enough to be born into a Christian family. Sometimes you are born into a non-believing family to be the one to stand out and help them see the light shining in the darkness. Just because he has the courage to stand up for what he believes in, doesn't mean that you can bash him but then again thats what most people do when they see someone so on fire for anything at all. People will naturally try to bring others down when they see that they are inspired by something even if they don't realize it. We are all sinners, none of us is perfect only Jesus is. We all fall short of Glory. We will be hated for His names sake and if I am hated or looked down upon because I believe in the real living God and what is said in His book then so be it. None of you are going to get me into Heaven so I can care less about your opinions and what you have to say about Christians. I don't know what people think Christians are supposed to be like. I mean are we supposed to just go to church on Sundays, say a few Hallelujahs, read a scripture from the bible and go home? NO!!!! That type of Christian is a luke warm Christian and thats the worst type of Christian to be. Jesus told the people that they would have to eat his flesh and drink his blood and if they didn't, they wouldn't have eternal life!! He got so upset that He flipped tables and kicked everyone that was selling and buying things out of the Temple but then we are supposed to stay quite and silent when it comes to things of God? NO! Thats not how it works. This is the time where the lions will weep and the lambs will roar!! I back him up 100% of the way!!!!
More...
114
Damon Thompson isnt liked because he calls people out. Jesus disciples did the same and many were killed. Although i didnt like his use of "queer" his message was still truth. Sorry if you dont like hearing that were all sinners and dont want to be called out on it. I stand with him. Homosexuality is not ok with God. Neither is any other sin so im not just saying your wrng but im also wrong when i look at heterosex.ual pornography.
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