Slog
News & ArtsWednesday, June 15, 2011
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: Women Can Be Weiners
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 4:37 PM
I am a 30-year-old male and have been married to my wife for eight years. In the beginning I was very jealous and questioned my wife's intentions on things a lot. Over the years I overcame this and grew secure in our relationship. But in the last two months this has been challenged. It all started with a text from someone she said was a girl at work. But the picture in the text was of a male torso with a very sexual message saying things along the lines of "I want to lick you all over." She said it was just this girl from work being silly.
Since then though I have started to notice changes in her behavior. I am not one to go snooping but after questioning her directly, telling her that we could work whatever out and her saying it was nothing, I wanted to reassure myself. I tried to check her phone messages but she is deleting texts from this one number that she does not have saved. It's a number that she has texted fifty times in one day. She changed her Facebook passwords and when I broke in I found a message she had sent to a guy calling him hot stuff and asking if he liked the pic she sent of her to him. I know I am breaking trust when I break into her Facebook but I wanted reassurances that nothing was going on. When I confronted her about the text and the messages, once again trying not to be mean about it, she said she didn't remember sending the message and that the texts were to a female friend we both know. I asked why her number wasn't in her phone and she said that she texting her friend at her friend's man's number because her friend's phone was broken. She has been texting this number for over two months now.
I love my wife very much and I want to trust her but the signs are not pointing to a good place. How can I get over these feelings I am having or how can I verify what I think is really going on? It's starting to make me depressed. Thank you for any advice or opinion you can give.
Miserable Husband
My response after the jump...
One of the pieces of bullshit that's been tossed around in the wake of Weinergate—one of the larger pieces of bullshit—is that married women just don't do this sort of thing. Married women don't exchange naughty text messages with people who aren't their spouses, they don't text/tweet/email dirty pictures, they certainly don't have affairs. Women just don't embarrass themselves or humiliate their spouses the way men do.
Women do text and sext, as MH's letter demonstrates, and some of even—gasp!—have affairs. So why are we less likely to hear about women behaving like Weiners? Well, maybe women are better at avoiding detection/getting caught. (Except for WH's wife here, who seems pretty lousy at avoiding detection.) Maybe women are likelier to get away with it because married women just don't do this sort of thing. The assumption that women don't cheat makes it easier for Lady Weiners to fly under the radar. And wronged husbands may be less likely to go public. A woman whose husband cheats or cheated is universally regarded as an object of sympathy; she's the stoic victim who's just trying to hold her family together. But a husband whose wife cheats/cheated is seen as a cuckold, as somehow weak and ridiculous, as a man who could neither control nor satisfy "his" woman. The wronged woman is a more than a martyr; the wronged husband is something less than a man.
Anyway, MH, if all you're getting out of your "confrontations" are transparently implausible explanations, then you're doing the confrontation thing all wrong. Stop asking her what's going on. You know what's going on: your wife is flirting—at the very least—with another man. She may be having sex with him. Tell her what you know (she's sexting with someone else), what you suspect (she may be fucking someone else), and then ask her if she wants to stay married?
If she does want to stay married, MH, then that will require an abject apology from her for the dishonesty/betrayal, an honest renegotiation of terms/vows, or both. Good luck.
1
If she does want to stay married, MH, then that will require an abject apology from her for the dishonesty/betrayal, an honest renegotiation of terms/vows, or both.
OR?! An apology is a bare necessity.
MH, DTMFA. She's a liar. She's been lying for months. And, not only has she been lying little white lies, she's been lying about things you've been asking her directly about. Listen, MH, you need to man up, grow a spine, and either ask her or DTMFA. Because, if you don't, she'll just keep lying to you, and you'll keep letting her and letting your inner core go rotten for it.
But, then, maybe you like it.
OR?! An apology is a bare necessity.
MH, DTMFA. She's a liar. She's been lying for months. And, not only has she been lying little white lies, she's been lying about things you've been asking her directly about. Listen, MH, you need to man up, grow a spine, and either ask her or DTMFA. Because, if you don't, she'll just keep lying to you, and you'll keep letting her and letting your inner core go rotten for it.
But, then, maybe you like it.
2
Judging from the implausible excuses she has been feeding you, I think you should be prepared to walk.
4
Make a stand now. 12 Years ago I found some e-mails my wife was exchanging with an unknown person. I confronted her, got a bullshit excuse that I fell for, and six months later find out she's fucking her boss. We patched things up and stayed married, but the next year or so really sucked.
5
It sounds to me like he's a controlling SOB and she's lying to him. He says he's "not one to go snooping" but he's doing exactly that. His wife may be acting like an idiot but he's playing J. Edgar Hoover here, and he wonders why his wife is lying to him? If he hacked into my whatever-account or started trying to trace my phone calls, I'd DTMFA, but then I'm a gay guy. From her responses to his questions and from the information he's found when he's "not snooping" I think he has more than enough basis for divorce if that's what he wants. If it isn't, he needs to stop being a douche-bag, let her have her fling, and then STFU about it.
7
"I tried to check her phone messages but she is deleting texts from this one number that she does not have saved. It's a number that she has texted fifty times in one day. She changed her Facebook passwords and when I broke in I found a message she had sent to a guy calling him hot stuff and asking if he liked the pic she sent of her to him. I know I am breaking trust when I break into her Facebook but I wanted reassurances that nothing was going on. "
He has no respect for her privacy and she covers up what she's doing. Sounds like they're perfect for each other.
He has no respect for her privacy and she covers up what she's doing. Sounds like they're perfect for each other.
8
Sometimes the person being cheated on is the last one to know. Dude, you're being cheated on - big time. If it's not already sexual, it will be soon. You need to seriously confront her about this, and if you don't get groveling (and I mean that quite literally) in response, throw the lying bitch out of the house.
9
Why in the world would you stay with such a person? Youre getting played, and you're just being a what # 3 said. protect yourself, get all the info you can and file for divorce. There is nothing to work out. if you tell someone to stop and they dont than youre nothing to them. Grow a pair homie. Plenty of women out there who dont cheat and are honest enought to tell you when youre relationship is not working.
10
dude, MH, you are the one with problems. you broke into her facebook account? isn't that a felony? she should have you arrested for that. creepy creepy creepy.
i mean going through phone records and committing felonies to access computer records is way more creepy then some harmless texting. She should dump you and charge you with computer crimes.
i mean going through phone records and committing felonies to access computer records is way more creepy then some harmless texting. She should dump you and charge you with computer crimes.
12
@11 no, I think he/she is being serious. Seriously delusional. Logging into someone else's Facebook account a felony? Hysterical.
Sure- MH was being a snooping jerk. He deserves to be punished for it. I'd say the knowledge he now can't unlearn is that punishment. Good luck with the confrontation/possibly eventual divorce MH!
Sure- MH was being a snooping jerk. He deserves to be punished for it. I'd say the knowledge he now can't unlearn is that punishment. Good luck with the confrontation/possibly eventual divorce MH!
13
@10: This is exactly what Dan is talking about - that if a woman cheats, it's always her significant other's fault.
Yes breaking into her facebook account is dickish, but so is texts of that nature which is clearly sexual in nature and the fact she went to such extensive and inept lengths to hide them - it's clear it's not just "Harmless texting" and that the guy had a good reason to dig.
Yes breaking into her facebook account is dickish, but so is texts of that nature which is clearly sexual in nature and the fact she went to such extensive and inept lengths to hide them - it's clear it's not just "Harmless texting" and that the guy had a good reason to dig.
14
Hi!
One thing that is glaringly obvious, you need outside help. If you set up an appointment with a certified counselor, she will have to know you are serious about wanting to set things straight. Until then, back off!
I really don't know what laws are applicable, but you are being overly intrusive. At the same time, she is being overly secretive for casual correspondence. Get a referee into the game ASAP, and be willing to work with their recommendations.
I wish I could help more, but this needs both of you in a room with someone who has both of your best interests at heart.
Peace.
One thing that is glaringly obvious, you need outside help. If you set up an appointment with a certified counselor, she will have to know you are serious about wanting to set things straight. Until then, back off!
I really don't know what laws are applicable, but you are being overly intrusive. At the same time, she is being overly secretive for casual correspondence. Get a referee into the game ASAP, and be willing to work with their recommendations.
I wish I could help more, but this needs both of you in a room with someone who has both of your best interests at heart.
Peace.
15
And this is also an object lesson in why you don't get married at 22. I learned a similar lesson at age 30 as well.
16
@12,
The guy who hacked into Sarah Palin's e-mail account got prison time. Still think that's hysterical?
The guy who hacked into Sarah Palin's e-mail account got prison time. Still think that's hysterical?
17
If she's not willing to admit she's sexting/IMing/ect behind your back after confronting her at least twice she's probably not going to fess up after the third talk. Have you asked to talk to this mutual female friend with a broken phone at the number in question? Have you asked the mutual friend if it's a number she's using? I know as well as you do that your wife is lying. Maybe if you close in and make her lies harder for her to keep straight she'll finally admit she's at least flirting. Until she decided to let you in on her little secret you'll never be able to patch things up. And if the lies keep flying even after the eventual collapse then leave her. I know it's hard to hear but EVERYONE deserves respect from their other half. Lying and cheating on someone is not respect.
18
Wow, lot of man haters in this thread. If the roles were reversed... but never mind. White men are the only group that we're allowed to hate with impunity. Maybe it's how it should be, maybe not. Still icky though.
And dude - divorce this woman.
And dude - divorce this woman.
19
And wronged husbands may be less likely to go public.
Your response assumes that everyone’s marriage is as public as those of politicians and celebrities. Maybe we don’t hear about women cheating because we don’t really hear about people cheating in general because most peoples’ private lives are, you know, private and not public? Most people don’t hold a press conference when they’re caught sexting.
Your response assumes that everyone’s marriage is as public as those of politicians and celebrities. Maybe we don’t hear about women cheating because we don’t really hear about people cheating in general because most peoples’ private lives are, you know, private and not public? Most people don’t hold a press conference when they’re caught sexting.
20
A question for all the anti-snoopers: What exactly is a person supposed to do when they find evidence of infidelity, and when their spouse tells flagrant lies when confronted?
Seems to me the correct approach is gather more evidence, yes?
TO BE CLEAR: I don't advocate snooping normally. Similar to how I don't think cops should be able to enter your house normally. But when there's pretty strong evidence that something is going on, privacy concerns are justifiably set aside.
Seems to me the correct approach is gather more evidence, yes?
TO BE CLEAR: I don't advocate snooping normally. Similar to how I don't think cops should be able to enter your house normally. But when there's pretty strong evidence that something is going on, privacy concerns are justifiably set aside.
21
There's two sides to every story. MH started the marriage on the wrong foot, "very jealous" and "questioning her intentions," which sounds to me EXACTLY like a guy likely to go snooping. And a guy who is controlling. Sounds like he may be reaping what he sowed.
22
Married at 22 pretty much sums it up.
Her best friends now exactly what's going on, and you're the only one out of the loop. Sit her down and ask her if she still loves you. Then ask her if she's having an affair.
Even if she states that she still loves you and denies having an affair, you should get your finances straightened out and begin researching how to go through a simple divorce (assuming little property and no kids). Everything points towards the affair and an eventual break-up of the marriage.
Sorry about that fella, it happens when you get married so young and grow apart. If she just came out and admitted to growing apart it would be very hard on you. As it is, if she is cheating, you're going to have to deal with trust and rejection issues as well. The bright side is that you're only thirty and have plenty of time to find a new, more experienced partner.
Her best friends now exactly what's going on, and you're the only one out of the loop. Sit her down and ask her if she still loves you. Then ask her if she's having an affair.
Even if she states that she still loves you and denies having an affair, you should get your finances straightened out and begin researching how to go through a simple divorce (assuming little property and no kids). Everything points towards the affair and an eventual break-up of the marriage.
Sorry about that fella, it happens when you get married so young and grow apart. If she just came out and admitted to growing apart it would be very hard on you. As it is, if she is cheating, you're going to have to deal with trust and rejection issues as well. The bright side is that you're only thirty and have plenty of time to find a new, more experienced partner.
23
Dude needs to improve his investigative skills. She says it's a girlfriend's number? Call it and see who answers. Then you'll have your proof.
As for all the moralizing about accessing her email facebook? Honey badger don't give a shit about moralizers.
As for all the moralizing about accessing her email facebook? Honey badger don't give a shit about moralizers.
24
While I get the whole "snooping is bad" thing. If I was in a monogomous relationship and my SO received a pic of a male torso and a suggestive message without giving me a decent reason why, I'd probably start snooping, too.
Leave her, MH. This sort of repeated lying is just as bad as the cheating. Only stay if you've got a cuckolding/humiliation fetish.
Leave her, MH. This sort of repeated lying is just as bad as the cheating. Only stay if you've got a cuckolding/humiliation fetish.
25
His snooping is absolutely justified under the circumstances. She is a CPOS and a liar.
Divorce her.
The sooner you do it, the better.
Anyone who thinks his justified snooping is worse than her unjustified cheating has a moral screw loose.
Divorce her.
The sooner you do it, the better.
Anyone who thinks his justified snooping is worse than her unjustified cheating has a moral screw loose.
26
@20 has a good point. I think a warrant to snoop should be issued with probable cause. But who would issue them? I think we all know the answer is Dan.
27
Does anyone who snoops ever find good news or is snooping just an exercise in confirming that it's over? If I'm innocent and I catch you snooping do you think I'll stay?
28
For those who say he started off on a bad foot for being jealous and controlling, all I have to say is: look what happened when he stopped.
Maybe they're made for each other. Maybe she is flirting and being dumb about it on purpose. What if she secretly liked him with jealousy and control issues and is trying to bring that back?
Maybe they're made for each other. Maybe she is flirting and being dumb about it on purpose. What if she secretly liked him with jealousy and control issues and is trying to bring that back?
29
MH, I'm so sorry for how things have turned out. It's clear that she is cheating on you, and it's time for you to accept it and decide on your next steps. Do you trust her enough to believe her if she says it'll never happen again? I'm afraid I wouldn't. Of course marriages survive infidelity, but it requires years of work. I suggest that you start the process of breaking up: look for a lawyer (and get evidence).
31
"So why are we less likely to hear about women behaving like Weiners?"
It's less likely because there's less women in positions of power, that's why. Until that equality gap is eliminated, we're just not going to see as many women being blackmailed with pictures of the people they're cheating with.
It's less likely because there's less women in positions of power, that's why. Until that equality gap is eliminated, we're just not going to see as many women being blackmailed with pictures of the people they're cheating with.
32
Snooping on your significant other is a crap shoot: if you don't turn up any meaty evidence and get caught snooping, then you're the one in trouble. If you do find evidence, though, then you've struck lucky... so to speak.
33
Privacy Nazis, you peoples is cwazy.
Snooping is justified 100% after the fact if you find actual evidence. You people are like the criminals behind bars who are angry at the detective and the DA for having the audacity to catch them. How dare they investigate you?!
Letter Writer dude, you are absolutely being lied to, and almost certainly being cheated on. You need to change the locks, and only offer to give her a fresh key if she gives you full access to all the information about the phone number she has been texting to, including a face-to-face conversation with the owner of that phone -- and if applicable, his wife.
Snooping is justified 100% after the fact if you find actual evidence. You people are like the criminals behind bars who are angry at the detective and the DA for having the audacity to catch them. How dare they investigate you?!
Letter Writer dude, you are absolutely being lied to, and almost certainly being cheated on. You need to change the locks, and only offer to give her a fresh key if she gives you full access to all the information about the phone number she has been texting to, including a face-to-face conversation with the owner of that phone -- and if applicable, his wife.
34
@19: "Go public" is relative. Some people would be humiliated even if only their closest friends found out.
Problem is, chances are good that more than one person outside the situation knows for sure or has basically figured it out already, and the last person to catch on is you. Chances are even reasonably good that her best friend is covering for her.
Problem is, chances are good that more than one person outside the situation knows for sure or has basically figured it out already, and the last person to catch on is you. Chances are even reasonably good that her best friend is covering for her.
35
@27: Of course snooping is almost always an exercise in bad news. If there is no reason to snoop, you don't go snooping. If you do go snooping under those conditions, most likely the person with the problem is you*, ya paranoid, jealous bastard, you.*
(hypothetical editorial "you," not you personally)
(hypothetical editorial "you," not you personally)
38
You have my sympathies. I can relate, and it sucks. I encourage you to take a bit more control and start thinking about things like they're over and it's up to her to change your mind (if you want to be open to changing it). I'm probably projecting my own shit, but you are coming across as someone who doesn't have any power in the relationship, and she is walking all over you. I get the impression you fear she is ready to walk if you push this. Given the circumstances, it should be the opposite. That she isn't begging you to forgive her says to me that it is over.
#30, to get forgiveness you need to ask for it. She clearly doesn't want to own up to it, so no forgiveness.
Those who talk about the intrusiveness, I'm with #20. Otherwise you're either being a sucker or are saying the relationship is non-monogamous with a strong don't ask don't tell policy. It's implied in any truly monogamous relationship that if you leave evidence of straying around, you are entering a snoop-zone. Yes, the person who snoops risks that they're wrong and they'll be caught, or they're right and will be sad. Or they could find out that nothing's going on and be (somewhat) happy. If they don't snoop and give their spouse/SO unlimited Benefit of the Doubt, and spouse/SO keeps leaving signs of infidelity (whether overt texts or just a way different mood), then they're unhappy because it's clear something's up and the spouse/SO is not being honest.
Of course, you could say instead of snooping just break up...that if there's enough evidence for you to breach privacy and they're not being honest then it's already done. But what if you share kids with them, or have other entanglements that make breaking up more than just a decision to live apart?
So in a situation like this where they snoop AND find something solid, well shit that should be an open-and-shut case that their snooping was justified (because spouse/SO is a CPOS..so who gives a shit about their privacy in regards to communications with their piece on the side). And if they find out they're wrong, well if they're lucky their spouse/SO doesn't find out about the snooping and the worrier can now sleep at night.
More...
#30, to get forgiveness you need to ask for it. She clearly doesn't want to own up to it, so no forgiveness.
Those who talk about the intrusiveness, I'm with #20. Otherwise you're either being a sucker or are saying the relationship is non-monogamous with a strong don't ask don't tell policy. It's implied in any truly monogamous relationship that if you leave evidence of straying around, you are entering a snoop-zone. Yes, the person who snoops risks that they're wrong and they'll be caught, or they're right and will be sad. Or they could find out that nothing's going on and be (somewhat) happy. If they don't snoop and give their spouse/SO unlimited Benefit of the Doubt, and spouse/SO keeps leaving signs of infidelity (whether overt texts or just a way different mood), then they're unhappy because it's clear something's up and the spouse/SO is not being honest.
Of course, you could say instead of snooping just break up...that if there's enough evidence for you to breach privacy and they're not being honest then it's already done. But what if you share kids with them, or have other entanglements that make breaking up more than just a decision to live apart?
So in a situation like this where they snoop AND find something solid, well shit that should be an open-and-shut case that their snooping was justified (because spouse/SO is a CPOS..so who gives a shit about their privacy in regards to communications with their piece on the side). And if they find out they're wrong, well if they're lucky their spouse/SO doesn't find out about the snooping and the worrier can now sleep at night.
39
@21, yeah, I agree on the bad foundations idea. Frankly, I'd have dumped the LW early in the relationship. Most of my friends are guys, so I don't deal well with jealous and insecure men. That said, I really think he needs to leave. Or change the locks. Or whatever. But withdraw and tell her the marriage can restart when she's ready to stop lying and go to counseling. In other words, set her free and see if she comes back, while at the same time letting her know you're serious. Maybe it seems melodramatic, but she's playing some really silly games. In her defense though, I suspect he's never really gotten over the whole jealous/controlling act, and that can definitely make for a dynamic where cheating is an increasingly attractive option.
40
They're doomed. No trust. No truth. No respect. No marriage.
She didn't even react re: his snooping, since she was too busy hatching up a stupid story about a girlfriend.
My ex did this to her 2nd husband, while I watched from a distance. Sad- 3 years after 'trying to make it work', she was still flirting and he'd had enough and did what he should have done 3 years earlier.
She didn't even react re: his snooping, since she was too busy hatching up a stupid story about a girlfriend.
My ex did this to her 2nd husband, while I watched from a distance. Sad- 3 years after 'trying to make it work', she was still flirting and he'd had enough and did what he should have done 3 years earlier.
41
This sounds like a submission to "Mr. Obvious".
Regarding the snooping, well, it's all about probable cause isn't it?
Regarding the snooping, well, it's all about probable cause isn't it?
42
Women do cheat, just not as often as guys. Men are more likely to act stupid on behalf of their genitals. This sounds sexist, but it's true.
43
Oh, messy. I'm sorry LW. I've been cheated on, it hurts. Snooping, generally bad, but I can see how someone acting like this just makes that loop of bad behavior. Writing to Dan = good call. Some of these comments are wise.
Try to brace yourself mentally for what is likely occurring, rather than having your head in the sand for another moment. Get some legal footing, calmly sort through a checklist of what would need to be packed up/dissolved, should the need arise, & sit down with all of the intellectual work done in advance, when you decide to talk to her. & think a lot about what you want, first. Free @ 30 is NOT a bad place to be. You have options.
Try to brace yourself mentally for what is likely occurring, rather than having your head in the sand for another moment. Get some legal footing, calmly sort through a checklist of what would need to be packed up/dissolved, should the need arise, & sit down with all of the intellectual work done in advance, when you decide to talk to her. & think a lot about what you want, first. Free @ 30 is NOT a bad place to be. You have options.
45
He should tell her she's being evasive, acting suspicious, and he doesn't know if he can trust her anymore. Unless she's willing to fully address his concerns there really isn't any point to continuing willtheir marriage. If she becomes hostile or defensive, then he will have his answer. Only the messy details will be missing. Marriage/LTR take a hell of a lot work, involve many compromises, and a degree of intimacy that requires surrendering much of your privacy. Secrets and lack of open, honest communicatiion are guaranteed to erode just about every marriage/LTR.
46
@20 If you're snooping, you clearly don't trust your partner. As far as I'm concerned, if there isn't trust in a relationship, there isn't a relationship. When you make a choice to violate your partner's trust, you've made a choice to destroy the relaitonship, regardless of what you find, so what you find is irrelevant. I have told all of my partners that deliberate snooping is an instant break-up offense.
What to do if there is concern that your partner has done something that you feel a need to snoop about - talk to your partner. Ask and discuss it. If you don't trust your partner's answers, then you really have only two options, counseling or breaking up. But you can't have any sort of healthy relationship with someone who doesn't trust you when you talk to them. If trust is that degraded, the relationship is already pretty much over and it's just a question of is it salvageable. It's likely better to just break up if you feel a need to snoop on your partner. If there are kids involved though, I'd probably recommend opting for counseling first. But it depends how bad the situation is.
What to do if there is concern that your partner has done something that you feel a need to snoop about - talk to your partner. Ask and discuss it. If you don't trust your partner's answers, then you really have only two options, counseling or breaking up. But you can't have any sort of healthy relationship with someone who doesn't trust you when you talk to them. If trust is that degraded, the relationship is already pretty much over and it's just a question of is it salvageable. It's likely better to just break up if you feel a need to snoop on your partner. If there are kids involved though, I'd probably recommend opting for counseling first. But it depends how bad the situation is.
47
Get Divorce for Dummies and several of the books on female infidelity. Blatantly read them in front of her. If she questions or hassles you, shrug your shoulders and just continue reading.
48
@39 I agree with you about irrational jealously and insecurity. It just shows a lack of trust, respect, and emotional maturity. Jealously and insecurity with just cause is a whole different matter.
49
Go on the offensive. Turn off your cell phone and stay out all night. Shrug off her questions. Do searches of adult dating sites and don;t delete your browsing history
51
Out of curiosity,
My wife and I both give total access to our respective e-correspondences, and have done so in the past.
Does hiding things when asked automatically indicate foul? I agree that lack of trust shows a shaky relationship, but dissembling is worse.
A corollary to trust is respect. Both are precious and need to be reinforced by both (all?) parties to maintain a safe marriage. And if you can't feel safe in your own home, why bother?
Peace
My wife and I both give total access to our respective e-correspondences, and have done so in the past.
Does hiding things when asked automatically indicate foul? I agree that lack of trust shows a shaky relationship, but dissembling is worse.
A corollary to trust is respect. Both are precious and need to be reinforced by both (all?) parties to maintain a safe marriage. And if you can't feel safe in your own home, why bother?
Peace
52
The (repeated and dogged) invasion of privacy bothers me because it shouldn't be necessary. Rather than being soft on the cheater, I realized that I'm so opposed to dishonesty and lack of openness in a relationship that the evidence was moot. At the point that my partner doesn't put my mind at ease when something seems fishy, there is a problem.
As someone who's been lied to point-blank about cheating and who later found evidence of the latex kind, I realize now that the evasiveness was the start of the end, not the evidence. What do you do when you find evidence? Rub their nose in it? Get them to admit, "Oh, well NOW I admit to being wrong"? Are they texting a suspicious person? If they cared about me, shouldn't they want to put me at ease and help me feel comfortable and trusting in the relationship? Maybe let me meet them. It's easy enough to do, so why play the games? I do the same, and initiate verbal "how're things going? Anything I can work on?" talks periodically.
Meanwhile, shared accounts that should be private wig me out - email, FB, LustLab, etc. The worst are the shared husband-wife email accounts where the husband gets his own private account as well. Email and FB are like toothbrushes and underwear; you just don't share those and don't try to get into others'.
As someone who's been lied to point-blank about cheating and who later found evidence of the latex kind, I realize now that the evasiveness was the start of the end, not the evidence. What do you do when you find evidence? Rub their nose in it? Get them to admit, "Oh, well NOW I admit to being wrong"? Are they texting a suspicious person? If they cared about me, shouldn't they want to put me at ease and help me feel comfortable and trusting in the relationship? Maybe let me meet them. It's easy enough to do, so why play the games? I do the same, and initiate verbal "how're things going? Anything I can work on?" talks periodically.
Meanwhile, shared accounts that should be private wig me out - email, FB, LustLab, etc. The worst are the shared husband-wife email accounts where the husband gets his own private account as well. Email and FB are like toothbrushes and underwear; you just don't share those and don't try to get into others'.
53
I'm glad some commenters are pointing out the snooping aspect. It seems like lately, other columnists and commenters, I'm looking at Hax and Co., are overlooking snooping when it used to be understood that snooping is wrong and unnecessary. Maybe it's all the technology we have now, but I still don't think that's a pass.
And this letter is exactly why snooping is wrong. He snooped, found evidence and is still getting lied to by his wife so it was pointless.
Someone laid this out way better than me but the gist is if you trust your partner, you don't need to snoop because they are trustworthy, and if you don't trust your partner, you still don't need to snoop because you shouldn't be with someone you don't trust in the first place. Hence snooping makes no sense (caveats being if you absolutely need proof for a prenup or if someone may be in danger).
And this letter is exactly why snooping is wrong. He snooped, found evidence and is still getting lied to by his wife so it was pointless.
Someone laid this out way better than me but the gist is if you trust your partner, you don't need to snoop because they are trustworthy, and if you don't trust your partner, you still don't need to snoop because you shouldn't be with someone you don't trust in the first place. Hence snooping makes no sense (caveats being if you absolutely need proof for a prenup or if someone may be in danger).
54
If my husband was always checking my phone history, and hacking into my Facebook, I'd deliberately leave a fake affair trail in it to make him nuts. Sounds like he's been like this from the beginning of their marriage.
55
I haven't made it through all comments yet, but I have to say a few words in defense of MH's snooping. I don't think it's excused, necessarily, but I certainly understand it. He did the right thing first -- he confronted his wife. She said nothing was happening, but it (understandably) didn't calm his fears.
Have any of you ever suspected you were being cheated on by your spouse? It's MADDENING. "Just walk" is an easy answer, but when you're married, and especially when you have kids (it isn't clear whether MH does or not, but I do), all you want is to believe your spouse that nothing is going on. But the nagging fears drive you crazy. All you want to do is make them stop. And, even though you logically know you can never prove a negative, it's incredibly difficult not to at least *try* to find some comfort -- some reason to believe your spouse really is telling you the truth -- any way you can. Or, in the alternative, to find some proof that they ARE lying so you can at the very least put the wondering to bed and start moving forward.
MH will probably discover nothing certain by snooping -- at least nothing he'll be willing to believe without hearing it from his wife -- but it's (in my experience) a perfectly natural reaction to what he's going through. Not excusable, but certainly understandable.
Have any of you ever suspected you were being cheated on by your spouse? It's MADDENING. "Just walk" is an easy answer, but when you're married, and especially when you have kids (it isn't clear whether MH does or not, but I do), all you want is to believe your spouse that nothing is going on. But the nagging fears drive you crazy. All you want to do is make them stop. And, even though you logically know you can never prove a negative, it's incredibly difficult not to at least *try* to find some comfort -- some reason to believe your spouse really is telling you the truth -- any way you can. Or, in the alternative, to find some proof that they ARE lying so you can at the very least put the wondering to bed and start moving forward.
MH will probably discover nothing certain by snooping -- at least nothing he'll be willing to believe without hearing it from his wife -- but it's (in my experience) a perfectly natural reaction to what he's going through. Not excusable, but certainly understandable.
56
@55 krista1203
You have no faith in a thing if you demand proof. Your marriage is over once you have doubts that can't be relieved by talking to your spouse. I'm always hearing about how infidelity is so inexcusable that divorce is almost a certainty. I think it's unbelievable to suggest that snooping and finding evidence of cheating will lead to the cheating stopping and a resumption of the marriage.
You have no faith in a thing if you demand proof. Your marriage is over once you have doubts that can't be relieved by talking to your spouse. I'm always hearing about how infidelity is so inexcusable that divorce is almost a certainty. I think it's unbelievable to suggest that snooping and finding evidence of cheating will lead to the cheating stopping and a resumption of the marriage.
57
1) Do you want or are you willing to stay married, even if she's cheating? If so, then you (and she) need to see a counselor and figure out how to re-negotiate the marriage.
2) If not: Are there kids involved? If so, do NOT follow the advice of @49 or @50; you want to be as pure as possible to make sure that you get 50% custody...some judges have strong prejudices that women should get the kids (and alimony, and the house) otherwise.
And copy everything in the e-mails, texts, etc. that is evidence of cheating...it is not a felony to look into your spouse's accounts - you are married (for now), so everything you own is shared, unless there was a pre-nuptial agreement against that.
Go see a lawyer. Figure out what you want, not to punish her, but to be able to raise the kids well, and to live on your own.
Go see a psychologist. A lot of society will blame you no matter what your wife did, and you have every reason to be depressed; but you need to be strong if you are going to be raising kids as a single parent even part of the time.
I'm sorry.
2) If not: Are there kids involved? If so, do NOT follow the advice of @49 or @50; you want to be as pure as possible to make sure that you get 50% custody...some judges have strong prejudices that women should get the kids (and alimony, and the house) otherwise.
And copy everything in the e-mails, texts, etc. that is evidence of cheating...it is not a felony to look into your spouse's accounts - you are married (for now), so everything you own is shared, unless there was a pre-nuptial agreement against that.
Go see a lawyer. Figure out what you want, not to punish her, but to be able to raise the kids well, and to live on your own.
Go see a psychologist. A lot of society will blame you no matter what your wife did, and you have every reason to be depressed; but you need to be strong if you are going to be raising kids as a single parent even part of the time.
I'm sorry.
58
Meanwhile, Anthony Weiner is reportedly going to resign. I wonder if his wife is making him do it. (He said he was going to consult with her after she got back from a business trip.)
59
To remove another layer of hypocrisy from the "only men sext, cheat, lie and fuck around myth", I think that better analogy to compare the Anthony Weiner scandal with is that of Lara Logan. No, I don't mean the brutal and horrific gang rape she endured in Egypt. That was horrible and should never happen to any person.
What I'm referring to is the fact that while married, Ms. Logan engaged in two simultaneous tawdry affairs with married men while on assignment in Iraq.
See www.huffingtonpost.com/.../lara-logan-se…;
Now Ms. Logan's affairs didn't garner the media attention that Weiner's did. In fact, unless you went looking for the information you'd likely never have heard about it. She didn't sext her tits to these guys, she was fucking them both while her husband and their wives were back home worrying about their safety.
I'm not saying Lara Logan is a bad person, nor am I making judgments about the men, one of which she married after divorcing their respective spouses. What I'm pointing out is what I think Dan's point is, that there is a double standard. Why is Weiner's dick pic worthy of a 24/7 media frenzy while Logan's trio of lovers no big deal to the media?
Surely, no one can argue that Logan is at least no less naughty than Weiner. Both occupy positions of public trust, but Logan's indicretions barely showed up on the radar while Weiner is turned into the second coming of Mephistopheles. Personally, I'm very tired of the bullshit and lies and spin (welcome to the no-spin zone) that is our sex obsessed media.
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What I'm referring to is the fact that while married, Ms. Logan engaged in two simultaneous tawdry affairs with married men while on assignment in Iraq.
See www.huffingtonpost.com/.../lara-logan-se…;
Now Ms. Logan's affairs didn't garner the media attention that Weiner's did. In fact, unless you went looking for the information you'd likely never have heard about it. She didn't sext her tits to these guys, she was fucking them both while her husband and their wives were back home worrying about their safety.
I'm not saying Lara Logan is a bad person, nor am I making judgments about the men, one of which she married after divorcing their respective spouses. What I'm pointing out is what I think Dan's point is, that there is a double standard. Why is Weiner's dick pic worthy of a 24/7 media frenzy while Logan's trio of lovers no big deal to the media?
Surely, no one can argue that Logan is at least no less naughty than Weiner. Both occupy positions of public trust, but Logan's indicretions barely showed up on the radar while Weiner is turned into the second coming of Mephistopheles. Personally, I'm very tired of the bullshit and lies and spin (welcome to the no-spin zone) that is our sex obsessed media.
60
You are being cheated on. Only the willfully blind would ignore it.
@39 had good advice. Tell her you know she is cheating - or at least acting inappropriate. Set her free and mean it. Tell her you would consider taking her back if she stops the cheating. Give her the serious option of just ending the marriage amicably.
Right now she is having her cake and eating it too, and has no incentive to change her behaviour.
@39 had good advice. Tell her you know she is cheating - or at least acting inappropriate. Set her free and mean it. Tell her you would consider taking her back if she stops the cheating. Give her the serious option of just ending the marriage amicably.
Right now she is having her cake and eating it too, and has no incentive to change her behaviour.
61
Have you called the number to see who answers? Pulled detailed cell phone bills for the last few months?
Snooping is a minor offense compared to lying even after confronted.
Snooping is a minor offense compared to lying even after confronted.
63
Re: @59: Because Logan is one of their own, that's why. Sharks don't eat sharks.
Count me in with the folks that suspect that she might be getting caught on purpose; she might be faking it to drive him nuts; she might actually be having an affair and wants to rub his nose in it; she might be getting off on this type of attention. It just feels like a trail of breadcrumbs.
Lastly, as to the people who dismiss the very notion of the state going after a snooping spouse, have you forgotten Mr. Leon Walker?
http://www.dailytribune.com/articles/201…
He (his wife's 3d husband) faces jail because he got into his wife's email account to (correctly) confirm that she was having an affair with her 2nd husband which was a possible danger to her son by her first husband. (BTW, if you want an illustration of classic narcissist behaviour, watch her being interviewed.)
BTW2: If you believe that a man would be charged with a felony for getting into her cheating husband's email account please do email me right away! I have a bridge near the Empire – Fulton Ferry State Park that I can let you have for a song!
Count me in with the folks that suspect that she might be getting caught on purpose; she might be faking it to drive him nuts; she might actually be having an affair and wants to rub his nose in it; she might be getting off on this type of attention. It just feels like a trail of breadcrumbs.
Lastly, as to the people who dismiss the very notion of the state going after a snooping spouse, have you forgotten Mr. Leon Walker?
http://www.dailytribune.com/articles/201…
He (his wife's 3d husband) faces jail because he got into his wife's email account to (correctly) confirm that she was having an affair with her 2nd husband which was a possible danger to her son by her first husband. (BTW, if you want an illustration of classic narcissist behaviour, watch her being interviewed.)
BTW2: If you believe that a man would be charged with a felony for getting into her cheating husband's email account please do email me right away! I have a bridge near the Empire – Fulton Ferry State Park that I can let you have for a song!
64
correction: "BTW2: If you believe that a woman would be charged with a felony for getting into her cheating husband's email account please do email me right away! I have a bridge near the Empire – Fulton Ferry State Park that I can let you have for a song!"
65
@47 - brilliant. But to the LW - I've seen this type of behavior before, and its hard to go back to trusting someone after it. Its lookin like its prob over, and that sucks, but you really shouldn't be gettin married at 22, people change a lot and grow up a lot in their early 20s. Just hope you learn somethin from it and make a better choice in partners next time
66
He is not the bad guy here. This was not random snooping. This was justified snooping. She isn't trying to torture him with a false affair (which would make her a total bitch; one should always end a relationship rather than cruelly torture the other person in it, no matter what real or perceived wrong he has done). She is having an affair.
It's not his fault she's cheating. She is a CPOS and a liar and should be treated like one. He should DTMFA.
If she hadn't cheated, he wouldn't have had to snoop. If she hadn't lied, he wouldn't have had to snoop. In the face of suspicious circumstances and obvious falsehoods, he was justified in snooping.
At this point, he has the information he needs to make a decision, so no further snooping is necessary or justified. He should just dump her.
Different people have different thresholds of sharing and needs for privacy. But if you're one the posters here freaking out over the privacy aspect under the clearly suspicious circumstances present in this case, you are either a cheater yourself, or probably shouldn't be in a longterm romantic relationship, being too paranoid, selfish, or insular to maintain it. Or maybe Dan is right, and it just is a cultural phenomenon to cut cheating women more slack and find reasons to blame the man when such occurs.
In the other hand, those with the black and white conclusion that "if you don't trust her enough to believe her and would consider snooping, then the trust is gone and the relationship is over anyway" seem to be suffering from a sort of naive rigidity totally at odds with real world people, emotions and relationships. Things get messy. Affairs can be dangerous. In the face of strong evidence but not wanting to believe it, like this guy, snoopers are conflicted and desperate.
Bottom line: An affair is a much more serious and fatal breach of respect and trust.
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It's not his fault she's cheating. She is a CPOS and a liar and should be treated like one. He should DTMFA.
If she hadn't cheated, he wouldn't have had to snoop. If she hadn't lied, he wouldn't have had to snoop. In the face of suspicious circumstances and obvious falsehoods, he was justified in snooping.
At this point, he has the information he needs to make a decision, so no further snooping is necessary or justified. He should just dump her.
Different people have different thresholds of sharing and needs for privacy. But if you're one the posters here freaking out over the privacy aspect under the clearly suspicious circumstances present in this case, you are either a cheater yourself, or probably shouldn't be in a longterm romantic relationship, being too paranoid, selfish, or insular to maintain it. Or maybe Dan is right, and it just is a cultural phenomenon to cut cheating women more slack and find reasons to blame the man when such occurs.
In the other hand, those with the black and white conclusion that "if you don't trust her enough to believe her and would consider snooping, then the trust is gone and the relationship is over anyway" seem to be suffering from a sort of naive rigidity totally at odds with real world people, emotions and relationships. Things get messy. Affairs can be dangerous. In the face of strong evidence but not wanting to believe it, like this guy, snoopers are conflicted and desperate.
Bottom line: An affair is a much more serious and fatal breach of respect and trust.
67
Of course women fuck around. But equally with certitude, you don't see "Weinergates" for female politicians. Setting aside for the moment hat we are about .05% of elected officials which would put a dent in it, I think the underlying issues accompanying cheating differ a bit between men & women. In all the cheating I've seen, on both sides, I've only seen men have power and entitlement issues with their cheating -- which is *exactly* the sort of cheating that politicians get exposed with. Women cheat as well, but usually far more circumspectly, and for a different set of reasons (in general). I don't know if we fly under the radar more, but I do think that the vast amount of anti-sexual cultural attitudes directed at women tend to result in us being much more careful about cheating.
Plus which remember that women don't get *reinforced* for being powerful -- she's labeled a bitch, someone who doesn't deserve her position,, and so on and so forth. A guy gets all kinds of positive reinforcement with the power he accrues. Politics is a particiularly unholy mix of power & entitlement and the responses to men in those positions is very different from women in those positions. So the kind of high profile implosion you see? Doesn't really happen.
I did read some really interesting work that suggests that the more power a person has (in work, etc), the more likely they are to interpret someone else's actions as being interested in them. Eg, if that person says "Hi," a "power drunk" person is more likely to interpret that as a flirty "Hiiiiii" than someone who isn't. And this effect was observed in *both* men and women. So theoretically if women start gaining more power & cultural reinforcement for that power (instead of the usual pull down, attack & shaming that goes on with women who do accrue power), we'd start getting "pussygates" too.
So hey, we could test that potentially by having 1/2 men and women in politics, changing our cultural notions of "women in power", and seeing what happens. But first we have to actually get up to parity before we can make any kind of observations... so let's hop to it!
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Plus which remember that women don't get *reinforced* for being powerful -- she's labeled a bitch, someone who doesn't deserve her position,, and so on and so forth. A guy gets all kinds of positive reinforcement with the power he accrues. Politics is a particiularly unholy mix of power & entitlement and the responses to men in those positions is very different from women in those positions. So the kind of high profile implosion you see? Doesn't really happen.
I did read some really interesting work that suggests that the more power a person has (in work, etc), the more likely they are to interpret someone else's actions as being interested in them. Eg, if that person says "Hi," a "power drunk" person is more likely to interpret that as a flirty "Hiiiiii" than someone who isn't. And this effect was observed in *both* men and women. So theoretically if women start gaining more power & cultural reinforcement for that power (instead of the usual pull down, attack & shaming that goes on with women who do accrue power), we'd start getting "pussygates" too.
So hey, we could test that potentially by having 1/2 men and women in politics, changing our cultural notions of "women in power", and seeing what happens. But first we have to actually get up to parity before we can make any kind of observations... so let's hop to it!
68
She has no respect for you, maybe justifiably so. Talk to an attorney, not a sex advice columnist for a local ragpaper. You have some work to do.
70
@67: "you don't see "Weinergates" for female politicians"
Au contraire:
http://jezebel.com/5657993/congressional…
and
http://wonkette.com/425271/congressional…
At this rate, the only people eligible for government office in about ten years will be total personality-zero prigs who never ever did anything at all unconventional in their entire lives. To paraphrase a Texas pol, "if we took out all the people who've never done anything stupid then the legislature wouldn't be a representative body".
Au contraire:
http://jezebel.com/5657993/congressional…
and
http://wonkette.com/425271/congressional…
At this rate, the only people eligible for government office in about ten years will be total personality-zero prigs who never ever did anything at all unconventional in their entire lives. To paraphrase a Texas pol, "if we took out all the people who've never done anything stupid then the legislature wouldn't be a representative body".
71
@55 I get that -- but having been on the other end of this (not cheating but with someone who suspected I was and kept trying to "prove" it) -- I can tell you that also absolutely maddening, and that actually became one of the reasons *I* left. (Interestingly, it turned out that I had been the one cheated on; I sometimes wonder if the person hunting so hard for evidence is actually projecting...)
So it just does not solve anything. Talking -- sincerely, completely, and honestly -- does (and if talking isn't happening or can't happen, or whatever, then it IS over, however painful it may be to unravel things.)
So it just does not solve anything. Talking -- sincerely, completely, and honestly -- does (and if talking isn't happening or can't happen, or whatever, then it IS over, however painful it may be to unravel things.)
74
If you legitimately think your spouse is cheating or has a gambling problem, or is doing something else underhanded, then I think you have a limited right to investigate before making an accusation. Checking a cell phone or browser history doesn't make you a bad person if you have some cause (spouse has been acting funny, etc).
My advice is to not confront your wife yet. Talk to a divorce lawyer and get your shit in order before you take any action. Even if you plan on staying with your wife it's best to know how to protect yourself if she decides to leave you.
People get sloppy with affairs when they want to get caught. There's a good chance she's just waiting for him to confront her so she can make him the 'bad guy' for not trusting her.
Divorce in America is highly biased toward women so again, talk to that lawyer to provide some legal lubrication before you get screwed by the system.
Good luck.
My advice is to not confront your wife yet. Talk to a divorce lawyer and get your shit in order before you take any action. Even if you plan on staying with your wife it's best to know how to protect yourself if she decides to leave you.
People get sloppy with affairs when they want to get caught. There's a good chance she's just waiting for him to confront her so she can make him the 'bad guy' for not trusting her.
Divorce in America is highly biased toward women so again, talk to that lawyer to provide some legal lubrication before you get screwed by the system.
Good luck.
75
No kids? Change the locks and leave her shit in the front yard. Don't answer the door when she is pounding on it with the cops next to her. Don't repond to phone calls. Just serve her papers and let the misery ensue.
Kids? Want custody? Hire a sharp lawyer and plan your exit. Very. Carefully.
But don't think for a second she is not already in another relationship. She is. You are just the paycheck-providing cuckold.
Kids? Want custody? Hire a sharp lawyer and plan your exit. Very. Carefully.
But don't think for a second she is not already in another relationship. She is. You are just the paycheck-providing cuckold.
76
#20 said it for me. I suspect at least a few of the privacy Nazis here have something to hide in their own lives.
Then again, the letter writer doesn't mention his wife going on any pious rants about his "invading her privacy." She's downright cavalier about their whole predicament.
@56, marriage shouldn't be founded on faith. It should be founded on trust, which has to be carefully cultivated. Marriage is something you do with another human being - an imperfect person who is bound to let you down and disappoint you sometimes - not with an infallible deity. Trusting someone because they've earned your trust and you want to show them respect does not mean always having faith in every word that comes out of their mouth. People who love you will lie to and wrong you. The more decent ones come clean and ask forgiveness, in order to rebuild trust. Faith has nothing to do with it.
Then again, the letter writer doesn't mention his wife going on any pious rants about his "invading her privacy." She's downright cavalier about their whole predicament.
@56, marriage shouldn't be founded on faith. It should be founded on trust, which has to be carefully cultivated. Marriage is something you do with another human being - an imperfect person who is bound to let you down and disappoint you sometimes - not with an infallible deity. Trusting someone because they've earned your trust and you want to show them respect does not mean always having faith in every word that comes out of their mouth. People who love you will lie to and wrong you. The more decent ones come clean and ask forgiveness, in order to rebuild trust. Faith has nothing to do with it.
77
@56 Mr. J
You said:
You have no faith in a thing if you demand proof. Your marriage is over once you have doubts that can't be relieved by talking to your spouse.
I say:
Unless your spouse is actually lying. I have instincts, I have them for a reason, and I was right to trust them when I did. I absolutely trusted my husband for YEARS without a doubt in my mind, but then one thing after another kept happening that made me feel uncomfortable. The very first thing I did was try to talk to him about it, because that's the right thing to do, but I *knew* he was lying. I tried to talk to him several times, and he lied every time. The lies became more and more implausible.
Why on earth should a person have blind faith in their spouse? People lie. We all do, sometimes. And of COURSE a cheating spouse is going to lie...especially if they (1) don't want to stop cheating; or (2) don't want to hurt their spouse; or (3) both. And of course the marriage can't continue if the lying spouse won't come clean eventually...I suppose in a way I felt like once I had some proof, he would HAVE to come clean, and then at least we could have an honest discussion about what was going on.
You said:
I'm always hearing about how infidelity is so inexcusable that divorce is almost a certainty. I think it's unbelievable to suggest that snooping and finding evidence of cheating will lead to the cheating stopping and a resumption of the marriage.
I say:
I don't consider infidelity to be a deal-breaker. But in any case, I didn't want to find out so I could make the potential cheating stop, I wanted to find out so I could stop feeling like a huge jackass that was repeatedly eating whatever bullshit I was being spoon-fed. I just wanted whatever facts existed so I could at least move ON in whatever way that would have to happen, and my husband refused to give me ANY facts.
I've never been a jealous person, but knowing I was being lied to, but not about what, definitely brought out The Crazy. I'm not proud of it, and I tried my damned hardest to control it, but it was incredibly painful and difficult.
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You said:
You have no faith in a thing if you demand proof. Your marriage is over once you have doubts that can't be relieved by talking to your spouse.
I say:
Unless your spouse is actually lying. I have instincts, I have them for a reason, and I was right to trust them when I did. I absolutely trusted my husband for YEARS without a doubt in my mind, but then one thing after another kept happening that made me feel uncomfortable. The very first thing I did was try to talk to him about it, because that's the right thing to do, but I *knew* he was lying. I tried to talk to him several times, and he lied every time. The lies became more and more implausible.
Why on earth should a person have blind faith in their spouse? People lie. We all do, sometimes. And of COURSE a cheating spouse is going to lie...especially if they (1) don't want to stop cheating; or (2) don't want to hurt their spouse; or (3) both. And of course the marriage can't continue if the lying spouse won't come clean eventually...I suppose in a way I felt like once I had some proof, he would HAVE to come clean, and then at least we could have an honest discussion about what was going on.
You said:
I'm always hearing about how infidelity is so inexcusable that divorce is almost a certainty. I think it's unbelievable to suggest that snooping and finding evidence of cheating will lead to the cheating stopping and a resumption of the marriage.
I say:
I don't consider infidelity to be a deal-breaker. But in any case, I didn't want to find out so I could make the potential cheating stop, I wanted to find out so I could stop feeling like a huge jackass that was repeatedly eating whatever bullshit I was being spoon-fed. I just wanted whatever facts existed so I could at least move ON in whatever way that would have to happen, and my husband refused to give me ANY facts.
I've never been a jealous person, but knowing I was being lied to, but not about what, definitely brought out The Crazy. I'm not proud of it, and I tried my damned hardest to control it, but it was incredibly painful and difficult.
78
@71 BEG
You said:
So it just does not solve anything. Talking -- sincerely, completely, and honestly -- does (and if talking isn't happening or can't happen, or whatever, then it IS over, however painful it may be to unravel things.)
I say:
You're absolutely right. And any logical, rational person would see that. And I DIDN'T continue on with my search for very long...after a few days I was so emotionally exhausted with the whole thing that I resigned myself to the fact that I would never be satisfied. I would never find proof, and my husband wouldn't come clean until he was good and ready. And so I gave up snooping. I told him I knew he was lying, but that it was on him. I told him if he was fucking around, I would find out eventually without snooping, and it would be Over, The End...not because he cheated, but because he wouldn't come clean when I confronted him, even when he saw how it was torturing me.
Turns out, he was having an emotional affair, but not a physical one. And he did come clean shortly after I stopped acting irrational and crazy. And we worked through it and things are stronger than ever, and I don't ever, ever feel the need to snoop (and even if I did, I would resist it).
Anyway, I agree with your assessment that snooping doesn't solve anything, and nothing can ever get better if you've got one holdout in the Honesty Game. All I'm saying is that desperation and pain lead to some irrational things.
If you're talking about somebody who snoops all the time, though, fuck that noise. DTMFA. Who could live that way, on EITHER end of it? I'm not talking about serial snoopers, I'm just talking about desperation when you honestly know something is going on and your spouse won't be honest.
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You said:
So it just does not solve anything. Talking -- sincerely, completely, and honestly -- does (and if talking isn't happening or can't happen, or whatever, then it IS over, however painful it may be to unravel things.)
I say:
You're absolutely right. And any logical, rational person would see that. And I DIDN'T continue on with my search for very long...after a few days I was so emotionally exhausted with the whole thing that I resigned myself to the fact that I would never be satisfied. I would never find proof, and my husband wouldn't come clean until he was good and ready. And so I gave up snooping. I told him I knew he was lying, but that it was on him. I told him if he was fucking around, I would find out eventually without snooping, and it would be Over, The End...not because he cheated, but because he wouldn't come clean when I confronted him, even when he saw how it was torturing me.
Turns out, he was having an emotional affair, but not a physical one. And he did come clean shortly after I stopped acting irrational and crazy. And we worked through it and things are stronger than ever, and I don't ever, ever feel the need to snoop (and even if I did, I would resist it).
Anyway, I agree with your assessment that snooping doesn't solve anything, and nothing can ever get better if you've got one holdout in the Honesty Game. All I'm saying is that desperation and pain lead to some irrational things.
If you're talking about somebody who snoops all the time, though, fuck that noise. DTMFA. Who could live that way, on EITHER end of it? I'm not talking about serial snoopers, I'm just talking about desperation when you honestly know something is going on and your spouse won't be honest.
79
I'm astonished by how many people say just end the marriage now. Yes, she's probably cheating. Why is that necessarily cause to end the marriage? If there is still love between them, and the reasons they married still exist, then there are other options.
I'd always ended up cheating in long-term theoretically-monogamous relationships. I'm not good at monogamy. When that happened in my current relationship, it caused us to sit down and have a come-to-god meeting where we discussed the terms of our relationship, renegotiated some things, and made an agreement to end all lying and sneaking around forever. We no longer hide things from one another (our marriage is essentially open, provided there is prior consent). We do not spy on one another or snoop in one another's private emails and other accounts - there's no reason to, as we share information about anyone we're corresponding with. It strengthened our relationship considerably (that was almost 15 years ago, by the way).
That may not be workable for them. I'm just saying all or nothing is not the only option.
I'd always ended up cheating in long-term theoretically-monogamous relationships. I'm not good at monogamy. When that happened in my current relationship, it caused us to sit down and have a come-to-god meeting where we discussed the terms of our relationship, renegotiated some things, and made an agreement to end all lying and sneaking around forever. We no longer hide things from one another (our marriage is essentially open, provided there is prior consent). We do not spy on one another or snoop in one another's private emails and other accounts - there's no reason to, as we share information about anyone we're corresponding with. It strengthened our relationship considerably (that was almost 15 years ago, by the way).
That may not be workable for them. I'm just saying all or nothing is not the only option.
80
@krista1203
I never said blind faith, just faith. You are saying the same thing I am trying to: that talking through it will resolve the problem or not. If the liar never comes to the table then that's it. You already knew in your situation even without snooping.
For most women I've ever heard talk about it sexual infidelity is a deal-breaker.
You're a remarkable person to have achieved what you have in your marriage. Thank you for telling your story.
I never said blind faith, just faith. You are saying the same thing I am trying to: that talking through it will resolve the problem or not. If the liar never comes to the table then that's it. You already knew in your situation even without snooping.
For most women I've ever heard talk about it sexual infidelity is a deal-breaker.
You're a remarkable person to have achieved what you have in your marriage. Thank you for telling your story.
81
Here is another spin on this:
he glossed over his earlier jealousy in their relationship. There may have been a LOT of negative behavior with regards to that.
His wife _is_ probably cheating, but she may have taken the stance of "If I've been accused/found guilty of doing such & such, then BY GOD I WILL DO IT since I've already been punished for it".
If he's already snooped/accused her before of cheating, she also may very well been erasing innocuous texts/phonecalls just because she knows she will get grief over them. I too was once in the position of erasing phone calls from co-workers, DOCTORS, etc, because my boyfriend at the time automatically assumed every call from a male was sexual/cheating related. They weren't, but I damn well would cheat now after all that.
And Dan, I am totally in accord with you regarding poor Congressman Wiener, however, at any other time, you would've torn the letterwriter a new one for jealousy/overstepping boundaries/being passive agressive & discussed why people cheat & how to adjust a relationship to reflect reality rather than our culture's wishful thinking re monogamy.
he glossed over his earlier jealousy in their relationship. There may have been a LOT of negative behavior with regards to that.
His wife _is_ probably cheating, but she may have taken the stance of "If I've been accused/found guilty of doing such & such, then BY GOD I WILL DO IT since I've already been punished for it".
If he's already snooped/accused her before of cheating, she also may very well been erasing innocuous texts/phonecalls just because she knows she will get grief over them. I too was once in the position of erasing phone calls from co-workers, DOCTORS, etc, because my boyfriend at the time automatically assumed every call from a male was sexual/cheating related. They weren't, but I damn well would cheat now after all that.
And Dan, I am totally in accord with you regarding poor Congressman Wiener, however, at any other time, you would've torn the letterwriter a new one for jealousy/overstepping boundaries/being passive agressive & discussed why people cheat & how to adjust a relationship to reflect reality rather than our culture's wishful thinking re monogamy.
82
@66 Or maybe, like me, they have long-term relationships founded on trust. I take the stance that I'm not willing to be in a relationship with someone if I'm not safe within my own home. I need to be able to leave my stuff around and not feel it is in danger of being investigated behind my back. I need to feel trusted and respected. In return, I'll trust and respect my partner.
The idea behind leaving is not because of the cheating, but because he is no longer willing to trust her. And it makes sense, she's not acting trustworthy. He's confronted her multiple times, and she does sound dishonest. The trust and respect sounds gone from their relationship. So, what do they have? A home she isn't safe in and a relationship lacking mutual respect where trust is going to be extremely hard to regain. It doesn't sound very salvageable.
I didn't state the first thing to do was to leave when you suspect cheating. I said the first thing to do was to talk to your partner. But he's done that. He's more than done that. And while his partner has done things that seem pretty clearly wrong, that doesn't make his actions right either. They both have damaged this relationship. And I doubt they left anything. But her wrong doesn't make his action any more right. She should have spoken to him if she was considering an affair - maybe to get permission, maybe to break up, and maybe to not do it. She failed at that. And he should have spoken to her when he suspected her, not snooped. And if he felt a need to snoop, then he should have instead suggested counseling. Her mistake doesn't justify his. And more to the point, her damaging his trust doesn't make his treating her without respect any less harmful to their relationship.
The idea behind leaving is not because of the cheating, but because he is no longer willing to trust her. And it makes sense, she's not acting trustworthy. He's confronted her multiple times, and she does sound dishonest. The trust and respect sounds gone from their relationship. So, what do they have? A home she isn't safe in and a relationship lacking mutual respect where trust is going to be extremely hard to regain. It doesn't sound very salvageable.
I didn't state the first thing to do was to leave when you suspect cheating. I said the first thing to do was to talk to your partner. But he's done that. He's more than done that. And while his partner has done things that seem pretty clearly wrong, that doesn't make his actions right either. They both have damaged this relationship. And I doubt they left anything. But her wrong doesn't make his action any more right. She should have spoken to him if she was considering an affair - maybe to get permission, maybe to break up, and maybe to not do it. She failed at that. And he should have spoken to her when he suspected her, not snooped. And if he felt a need to snoop, then he should have instead suggested counseling. Her mistake doesn't justify his. And more to the point, her damaging his trust doesn't make his treating her without respect any less harmful to their relationship.
83
@37, 43, etc (I didn't get through them all) the double-standards all-round are the most interesting part of this letter and the responses to it.
What bothers me is that a) Dan felt he had to point out that women cheat too (duh) b) a lot of the responses that weren't focused on the "is snooping justified" aspect or the "she was definitely cheating" aspect reinforced the stereotype that works both for and against both sexes: Men are wired to want sex all the time; wonderful ones remain willfully controlled and monogamous, jerky ones lose control and go with their natural cheating instincts almost accidentally. Women, on the other hand, instinctively prefer monogamy; monogamous ones are just normal (to no applause), but whorish freaks of nature cheat vindictively and with purpose.
I'm sure there are lots of biological factors that contribute to how we all behave, but I hope as equality progresses it will become understood that contrary to broad stereotypes, lots of men prefer monogamy, that's why they don't cheat. Lots of women keep their animal sexual urges under control for the sake of a relationship they care about, that's why they don't cheat.
It's a fallacy that all women stay monogamous effortlessly, because that's their natural state, and it's also a fallacy that all men stay monogamous with great effort (and should be knighted for it).
And it's a shame that a man who gets cheated on is more likely seen as a devoted idiot while a woman who gets cheated on is seen as a faultless victim. More broad stereotypes.
And that a man who cheats is seen as a juvenile asshole who can't control himself (or at least cover his tracks), and a woman who cheats is seen as a deliberately conniving slutty witch.
Different verdicts for the same thing.
More...
What bothers me is that a) Dan felt he had to point out that women cheat too (duh) b) a lot of the responses that weren't focused on the "is snooping justified" aspect or the "she was definitely cheating" aspect reinforced the stereotype that works both for and against both sexes: Men are wired to want sex all the time; wonderful ones remain willfully controlled and monogamous, jerky ones lose control and go with their natural cheating instincts almost accidentally. Women, on the other hand, instinctively prefer monogamy; monogamous ones are just normal (to no applause), but whorish freaks of nature cheat vindictively and with purpose.
I'm sure there are lots of biological factors that contribute to how we all behave, but I hope as equality progresses it will become understood that contrary to broad stereotypes, lots of men prefer monogamy, that's why they don't cheat. Lots of women keep their animal sexual urges under control for the sake of a relationship they care about, that's why they don't cheat.
It's a fallacy that all women stay monogamous effortlessly, because that's their natural state, and it's also a fallacy that all men stay monogamous with great effort (and should be knighted for it).
And it's a shame that a man who gets cheated on is more likely seen as a devoted idiot while a woman who gets cheated on is seen as a faultless victim. More broad stereotypes.
And that a man who cheats is seen as a juvenile asshole who can't control himself (or at least cover his tracks), and a woman who cheats is seen as a deliberately conniving slutty witch.
Different verdicts for the same thing.
84
Women do text and sext, as MH's letter demonstrates, and some of even—gasp!—have affairs. So why are we less likely to hear about women behaving like Weiners? Well, maybe women are better at avoiding detection/getting caught. Maybe women are likelier to get away with it because married women just don't do this sort of thing. The assumption that women don't cheat makes it easier for Lady Weiners to fly under the radar. And wronged husbands may be less likely to go public.
I do think that men still cheat more often than women but I've read (and believe) that the "cheating" gap has narrowed substantially in the past few decades. I may be wrong but I believe that cheating is largely a function of opportunity so that women and men who are very desirable to the opposite sex are more likely to cheat. In other words, I think a hot woman is more likely to cheat than an average-looking guy because she's going to have tons of opportunities every year (or every week.)
A woman whose husband cheats or cheated is universally regarded as an object of sympathy; she's the stoic victim who's just trying to hold her family together. But a husband whose wife cheats/cheated is seen as a cuckold, as somehow weak and ridiculous, as a man who could neither control nor satisfy "his" woman. The wronged woman is a more than a martyr; the wronged husband is something less than a man.
Absolutely. No doubt in my mind there's a double standard. Plus, I frequently seem to hear men blamed by women no matter which person cheats. If a wife is cheating, it's because her husband didn't pay enough attention to her. If a husband is cheating, it's because he's a jerk who can't keep his dick in his pants.
I do think that men still cheat more often than women but I've read (and believe) that the "cheating" gap has narrowed substantially in the past few decades. I may be wrong but I believe that cheating is largely a function of opportunity so that women and men who are very desirable to the opposite sex are more likely to cheat. In other words, I think a hot woman is more likely to cheat than an average-looking guy because she's going to have tons of opportunities every year (or every week.)
A woman whose husband cheats or cheated is universally regarded as an object of sympathy; she's the stoic victim who's just trying to hold her family together. But a husband whose wife cheats/cheated is seen as a cuckold, as somehow weak and ridiculous, as a man who could neither control nor satisfy "his" woman. The wronged woman is a more than a martyr; the wronged husband is something less than a man.
Absolutely. No doubt in my mind there's a double standard. Plus, I frequently seem to hear men blamed by women no matter which person cheats. If a wife is cheating, it's because her husband didn't pay enough attention to her. If a husband is cheating, it's because he's a jerk who can't keep his dick in his pants.
85
Those of you who think that snooping is NEVER justified and that because she lied to him he HAS to leave her because he can never trust her AGAIN (well maybe you guys didn't say it quite that dramatically :P), I think you're basing that on your own requirements in a relationship. Although it's almost a cliche that "all relationships are built on trust", I don't think that necessarily means that all relationships are built on honesty exactly. For example, I have something of a chronic lying problem which I've been working on for years now, but it doesn't stop me from having a healthy relationship. For me, when I don't want to tell my boyfriend the truth for some reason, a lie often slips out before I even stop it; it's a delusional tendency that somehow he'll never know if I just lie to him. Nowadays, I own up to it without prompting from him later because it gets to me, and he forgives me almost casually. If honesty were the highest value in our relationship, I don't think it could survive because my lying would be a much bigger deal than it is; instead, our relationship is built on the trust that we would never do anything to imperil the relationship on purpose. For someone who believes that her lying to his face means that there's no point in staying, I don't think that's necessarily true. If he knows that he doesn't want to be with her if she's cheated on him, you're right, he should just leave now. But if he just wants her to admit it so they can deal with it, he should say "Look, I'm not stupid, I know you're cheating on me. Please just admit it so we can deal with it. If you don't, I'm leaving." Maybe she'll be humiliated and upset, and maybe she'll even leave him once he throws it out there like that, but maybe she'll decide that her marriage is more important than her pride.
More...
86
Here's something close to a "female Weiner" with a little George Rekers mixed in -- Iris Robinson.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iris_Robins…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iris_Robins…
88
you know, if you are posting this letter to contrast it with discussion of the Weiner thing, then saying "And wronged husbands may be less likely to go public" is sort of a non-sequitur. Weiner's wife has stayed very much out of the public eye and it is a MAN, ie BREITBART who seemed most interested in going public with Weiner's private sexting life.
And come to think of it, in all the political sex scandals, the only wife I can think of who went balls-out public was...wait was it Sanford's wife? That was weird yes.
Maybe I'm wrong (feel free to prove me wrong) but wives going public to shame their husbands have not been generally the outstanding events of these "scandals."
And come to think of it, in all the political sex scandals, the only wife I can think of who went balls-out public was...wait was it Sanford's wife? That was weird yes.
Maybe I'm wrong (feel free to prove me wrong) but wives going public to shame their husbands have not been generally the outstanding events of these "scandals."
89
@76 "People who love you will lie to and wrong you. The more decent ones come clean and ask forgiveness, in order to rebuild trust."
Yes.
Yes.
90
good to see lots of thoughtful comments here. here's my two cents: snooping is what it is - maybe it can be justified based on the situation, but all that seems irrelevant here. in this situation, snooping is not going to give MH what he wants - he wants to trust his wife and work out "whatever". he wants to keep his marriage AND he wants his wife to want the same thing. she does not seem to want that, and does not have the courage to say so directly. of course he is feeling depressed - this is a recipe for crazy. more snooping and more confrontation seem unlikely to help here.
what *will* help is a decision to take in this reality and deal with it, which means letting go of the crazy-making snooping, and deciding for yourself what you want and need. and then follow through on that. don't allow yourself to be sucked back in to a situation that offers you no respect. lots of good input here on the specifics of how to do that.
it ain't easy, but it's the way out for real. staying in a situation like this is no good. no good at all.
what *will* help is a decision to take in this reality and deal with it, which means letting go of the crazy-making snooping, and deciding for yourself what you want and need. and then follow through on that. don't allow yourself to be sucked back in to a situation that offers you no respect. lots of good input here on the specifics of how to do that.
it ain't easy, but it's the way out for real. staying in a situation like this is no good. no good at all.
91
I believe each party in a relationship has the absolute right to decide for themselves what is acceptable and tolerable. Anything less is a form of bondage or involuntary servitude, which unless you are voluntarily into BD is just plain wrong. In a healthy relationship the information necessary to decide is shared willingly. This is who I am and what I want. Sadly this is not true in too many relationships. If you choose to be in a relationship, you give up part of your right to privacy. If you aren't willing to do that then you have no business being in that or any other relationship. As far as I am concerned, your right to privacy ends once you choose to lie to, deceive, or betray the other people in the relationship. Asserting your right to privacy in those circumstances is an unacceptable attempt to control the other people. But hey, that is my personable opinion and what do I know.
92
MH, you are being cheated on. Your wife doesn't respect you. She never will. If she did, then she would have been honest about her dissatisfaction with monogamy, and she would have opened negotiations. Instead, she's trying to have a harem. If she felt any remorse, then it would have been an isolated incident, which it clearly is not. Get a divorce. Get a lawyer. Get them now. Don't offer any forgiveness. If your reaction to this behavior is anything short of divorce, then you've effectively endorsed it, and it will happen again. And if you keep acting like a controlling, possessive, insecure dick to the women in your life, then it will definitely happen again.
93
$0.02, way too late. You have much more than probable cause to believe that she's having an affair. You, not unreasonably, want her to reconcile with you, you want to live together, pay attention to one another, have kids and build a life and grow old together. I totally get that. The problem is that she doesn't particularly want to reconcile with you, or at least that's your impression ... and that's super-tough.
The answer is to walk.
Rent an apartment, then take a day off, hire movers, and get all your stuff while she's at work. Cancel, sever, or freeze joint financial accounts and commitments. Get your mail forwarded to a PO Box.
Leave her a letter in a conspicuous place, where she can't possibly miss it, and say what you're doing (moving out, because you think your marriage is over in all but name) how you feel (you love her, but you're scared and hurt), what you need (basic courtesy), and that you would like to hear from her (because you would, and if she wants to call, it works out much better if she doesn't feel like she'll be berated or humiliated for doing it).
Send a short note to your family members and close friends saying that you are relocating to X, and you would appreciate hearing from them, but don't explain. Ever. If you reconcile, you need everyone's support to make it work, and you won't get it if your family thinks that she's a cheating POS. If you don't reconcile, the truth will come out without your help. It always does.
And then that's it.
The ball is in her court. If she's still invested in your marriage, and you're wrong, she'll be furious at you - but she will call to tell you how furious she is at you. If she isn't, you'll know it soon enough, too, and it will hurt like hell. But it will hurt like hell and give you your life back.
More...
The answer is to walk.
Rent an apartment, then take a day off, hire movers, and get all your stuff while she's at work. Cancel, sever, or freeze joint financial accounts and commitments. Get your mail forwarded to a PO Box.
Leave her a letter in a conspicuous place, where she can't possibly miss it, and say what you're doing (moving out, because you think your marriage is over in all but name) how you feel (you love her, but you're scared and hurt), what you need (basic courtesy), and that you would like to hear from her (because you would, and if she wants to call, it works out much better if she doesn't feel like she'll be berated or humiliated for doing it).
Send a short note to your family members and close friends saying that you are relocating to X, and you would appreciate hearing from them, but don't explain. Ever. If you reconcile, you need everyone's support to make it work, and you won't get it if your family thinks that she's a cheating POS. If you don't reconcile, the truth will come out without your help. It always does.
And then that's it.
The ball is in her court. If she's still invested in your marriage, and you're wrong, she'll be furious at you - but she will call to tell you how furious she is at you. If she isn't, you'll know it soon enough, too, and it will hurt like hell. But it will hurt like hell and give you your life back.
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