Slog
News & ArtsMonday, May 23, 2011
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: Long Form
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, May 23, 2011 at 4:41 PM
Longtime reader, longtime listener, I hope you never stop. You're a perfect role model not just for oppressed youths, but for people everywhere, as someone who is committed to doing as much good with their life as they possibly can. Thank you.
With those formalities out of the way, this is going to take awhile to get through, so settle in. The story, I feel, is necessary to understanding my crisis.
I have an incredibly poor history with women. I am almost 22 and have not had intercourse (there was some oral about 4 years ago). I have never had a real relationship. However, I am told I am pretty attractive and it takes more than two hands to list the girls I have made out with (I swear I am not bragging). I am nerdy and most often described as 'strange' or 'goofy' or 'bizarre'. The girl who is about to be described, Stella, is a girl I often talked to about my relationship woes. I could never have expected that she would be the girl to seriously break my heart or worsen my trust issues. I am incredibly loyal and feel confident in saying that I would never cheat (though how do I know, I suppose). All around, I think I am a pretty good guy. The girls I get involved with either end up friend zoning me, I find them completely disinteresting, or something incredibly weird and awkward happens (the last girl undressed herself for me after knowing me for five days. I didn't sleep with her because I was turned off by this sluttish behavior).
I have this friend who I have known for about a year, let's call her Stella.
We share tons of interests, we get along great, she gets my humor. The only problem is, she's been in a relationship with this guy, let's call him Stanley, for just as long. He's kind of an asshole; all of her friends don't like him and he mistreats both her and her friends. He's that kind of guy who will put you down, then laugh about it and say something like 'just kidding', as if he didn't just put you down. He is also notoriously flirtatious, to the point where their relationship has had issues dealing with it. He has promised in the past not to flirt with other girls anymore, then has done so. In the past, he had broken up with her because he didn't get to see her much and felt he was being unfair with her. As to the validity of that statement, I have no idea. I do know that two days after breaking up with her (I did not know Stella personally at this point, but knew who she was), I was at a party with him and he invited a different girl to the party and personally walked her to said party. When conversing with Stanley, I asked him, jokingly, what was wrong with his last girl, 'not cute or something'? He said to me 'not cute enough'. I have been in situations with Stanley and Stella where Stanley has displayed a clear lack of respect for Stella, such as groping her in front of people and constantly asking her to do things that she doesn't want to do (such as drink alcohol). He is most commonly described by other people as "arrogant."
Additionally, we worked (all three of us) at the same establishment. There's another girl at this establishment who confided to me that she had made out with Stanley, and that Stanley had told her that, "Whenever I (Stanley) get drunk, the drunker I get, the less attractive I find Stella." This girl, the coworker, isn't the most trustworthy source, but I have no reason to not believe her either.
They had already had plans to break up in August because both Stanley and Stella are studying abroad. They are going to completely opposite sides of the world, and Stanley claimed that he "didn't feel like he could pursue a long distance relationship," but Stella was interested in doing so.
Recently, Stella's best friend, let's call her Blanche for continuity, caught Stanley in bed with another girl when, after a party, Blanche went into said girl's room to retrieve her footwear. Stanley covered up this other girl, as though ashamed, but there was no proof that anything had actually physically been done. Either way, Stella had told Blanche to tell her if Stanley did anything like this, so Blanche told her what happened. Blanche told me this happened last Monday night, when I was at a friend's place. The next day, last Tuesday, Stella went to her apartment and dumped him. Apparently, he became 'emo' and began to slap himself and say he was sorry over and over and over, but Stella wouldn't have any of that shit, and continued on with the dumping anyway.
This is where it gets tricky, because I have to add details that I learned later. After doing the "breaking up," she apparently proceeded to ask for a kiss, #1. I am going to number details like this so you know when I learned them. I feel as though it's important.
Later that night, that Tuesday, I asked Stella if she wanted to hang out that night at her house (where she lived half the time with her mother). We spent a long car trip talking and then hung out at her place and watched a delightful movie. I put my arm around her and we cuddled a bit. Later that night, I asked if I could kiss her, and she said yes. Over the course of a few hours we made out and had some honest, emotional talks about how we felt about each other (we both liked each other a lot), and how she felt stupid for giving Stanley so many second chances. She also said she felt like she was taking advantage of me, and I reassured her that she was not, that what we were doing was exactly what I wanted, and that I had been worrying that I was taking advantage of her, which she denied. For specificity, we got to second base (groping and partial lack of a shirt). This happened again the next night (Wednesday), except that night she began to cry while making out, and asked to slow down a bit, which I agreed was completely okay, that I would take it as absolutely slowly as she wanted, and I let her talk out her feelings for an hour or two. She said she was reminded of Stanley still, especially with what we were doing. After awhile I asked her if she wanted to kiss again, and she agreed. That was as far as we got physically, and I was very happy these two days.
In our circle of friends, there was a giant trip planned to a convention for that weekend, Thursday-Sunday. She asked if I would try to hide that we had any kind of relationship during the convention, and I agreed to do so. The plans had been set in motion, and a whole of bunch of Stella and mine's friends, including Stanley, were going to all be in a hotel room for this convention. Stella and everyone else left Thursday afternoon. I left Friday to stay with relatives and thus was not made to stay in the single hotel room with 14 people. During the ride (about 2.2 hours), she texted him to tell him that they were "just friends" and mostly ignored him Thursday and Friday. However, about midway through Friday, and this is where timeline begins to get important, Stanley texted her saying he wanted to talk alone. She described this to me around 7pm as the following: 'I am going to talk with Stanley to tell him we are just friends'. During this conversation, he asked her to get back together with him, #2. Later that night, they talked alone for awhile, then everyone regrouped at the hotel room later that night and me and Stella had a text conversation. I asked what happened between her and Stanley, and she said that she wasn't sure how to describe how things were between the two of them. Then I asked if WE were in the same position, and she said yes.
The next day, Saturday, rolls around. Me, Stanley, Stella and Stella's cousins hang out in the convention area for the better part of a day. After we finished all hanging out, Stanley suddenly dramatically left the hotel room, then Stella received a text several minutes later that said he wanted to talk to her again. About 4pm, me and Stella talked alone, and she told me #2. I discussed with her why this was a bad idea, how just days ago she had been saying how stupid she was for giving him so many second chances. In the course of the conversation, she admitted she regretted going so fast with me, and said that she wished we could have some kind of restart. I told her that if she could assure me that later she would tell Stanley, definitively, that they were just friends, I would have absolutely no problem restarting: no physical contact, standard hanging out, and just seeing where it was going. She agreed to this, and I told her I trusted her to make the right decision. I made her aware of the fact that it would be unlikely that I would speak to her for an extended amount of time if she went back to Stanley. Since I am being completely honest here, being such a longtime fan, I consider myself at least above 'complete fuck-up' on the scale of giving advice. I at least feel that I know when I see abusive or manipulative behavior, and I told Stella that this is absolutely what I thought (I may have cited your name, I apologize), that Stanley was being manipulative and abusive and that he was never going to change. Now, throughout all of this, I'd like to think I was being a great guy, but I admit to trying, either consciously or subconsciously, to selfishly convince (manipulate) her to go with me. That's probably true. However, I also really just don't want Stella to be with Stanley anymore - I don't care if she goes off and dates some other guy. Just no more Stanley.
Around 6pm, they had a talk. In the course of this talk, Stella admitted to having made out with me the night of their breakup. Stanley became incredibly enraged, and threw his phone against a stone wall, shattering it. He then motioned to leave, presumably to come find me and show what a nice guy he was, but Stella stood in his way. All of that is #3.
Around 8pm, Stella talked to what she considered a "neutral source," a mutual friend. What Stella probably didn't know, and probably still doesn't know, is that this neutral source, let's call her Eunice, had confided in me previously that she doesn't like Stanley either. However, when the two talked, Eunice advised Stella by telling her to consider her options:
1. Go with me
2. Go with Stanley
3. Go with neither of us
4. Ask for more timeStella concluded that she wanted more time. This is all #4.
Stella then had a conversation with Stanley from about 11pm to 1:30am. During this time, he cried and said he changed his mind, that he would be absolutely willing to try a long distance relationship now. He promised he would change. She asked him what he said he meant by 'change', and he said that they would discuss this change later. This is #5.
During this time, I had been hanging out with Blanche and others. I finally told Blanche in confidence that I had made out with Stella, and that I had liked her for as long as I knew her. Blanche told me how happy she was about this, that at first she thought I was a douche but over time realized that I am a great guy (her words, not mine).
Around 2am, I talked with Stella again. For a bit we discussed this alone, what was going on. She told me #s 3 and 4. I told her I already knew #3 had happened because I knew, at some point, she would tell Stanley about us. She then told me #5.
Around 2am, I invite Blanche out to talk with both of us. At this point, Stella tells us #1. I had long suspected something of this nature. It explained why the break-up was so messy, why this entire fiasco happened. In the end, Stella admitted that she felt that everyone was ganging up on her. I told her I already knew what she was going to do, that she was going to back to Stanley. I told her, again, that Stanley would never change. At a certain point, Blanche grabbed something from the room and I told Stella that I would try to be there for her always. That we would always be friends, but that the timeframe for being anything more than that was thinning. Coming back, Blanche told her that she felt that Stanley offering the long-distance relationship seemed incredibly manipulative, that the idea of saying 'oh, well, if you get back together with me, I'll give you what you always wanted' seemed largely unfair and coercive. Stella said that we didn't know what we were talking about, that if Blanche just had the chance to listen to Stanley say how he had changed, Blanche would believe it. That Stanley never cries, it was clearly because he was so broken up and ready to change.
We stopped talking around 3:30am, with no progress whatsoever, Stella still distraught, myself mad, hurt and confused, we all went to bed.
Nothing really happened on Sunday. The convention ended, and I told Stella that I would give her all the space she needed. I learned through Blanche's boyfriend that the idea of Blanche and Stanley talking is being gone forward with at some point.
I don't want to lose my friend, but I don't know if I can be friends with her after this. I have never been so emotionally conflicted, but at the same time, whenever I feel like the victim, some part of me says I am being selfish and not thinking about what Stella must be going through.
My series of questions:
1. I know I moved too fast. I am an idiot for this? How much should I beat myself up over it?
2. Is Stanley being abusive in your opinion? Manipulative? If so, is there any way I can make Stella realize this?
3. Am I right in assuming there Stella will go back to Stanley (based on the fact that none of these talks were about the pros of having a relationship with me, but rather the possible pros of another relationship with Stanley).
4. Should I be mad at Stella?
5. Am I a selfish douchebag for thinking I am the better option?
6. Let's say in the long run, my prediction is right about Stanley (that he won't change), and he fucks up again. Do I forgive her then?
7. I am conflicted over whether I should be mad at Stella, for being so easily manipulated, or forgiving, because I know it can happen to the best of us. Anything to help me sort out my thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
8. Did I deserve this?
9. Let's say she chooses me (doubtful, yeah?). Should I agree? Would I be justified in saying, "No thanks, you lost your chance"?
A few final questions: Is there something wrong with me? Why am I such a romantic fuck-up? Why do I always get hurt when I involve myself with women?
Better Part Of A Triangle
1. Yes. Just enough to pound some sense into yourself.
2. Being a prick and being an abuser are two different things. As for making Stella realize what Stanley is doing: Stella knows exactly what Stanley is doing. Do you know what Stella is doing? She's enjoying this drama, BPOAT, as it allows her to be the center of attention at all times. (Did you ever get out and enjoy the convention?) And the show will continue so long as you and Blanche and Eunice and your coworkers and Stella's cousins are content to serve as bit players in Comic-Conned, Or the Very Tragical Romance of Stella and Stanley. Wake up, BPOAT: Stella is manipulating you with her dense-and-helpless act.
3. Stella will go back to Stanley, then break up with Stanley, then go back to Stanley, then break up with Stanley, etc., etc. Stella is going to keep giving Stanley second chances until the theater is empty. The sooner you walk out, BPOAT, the sooner the fucking curtain comes down.
4. Be mad at Stella, if it helps you walk out.
5. Very few people don't believe themselves to be better options than their romantic rivals. Which means that very few people aren't selfish douchebags on some level. So take comfort.
6. Stanley won't change. He's going to fuck up and Stella is going to break up with him again. But if what you mean by, "Do I forgive her then?", is, "Do I take her back?", the answer is no. NO. Do not take her back. Because you know who else isn't going to change? Stella isn't going to change. If she breaks up with Stanley and takes you back cons you into believing that you're taking her back, it'll only a matter of time before she goes dumps your ass again and goes back to Stanley.
7. Sure, be mad at Stella—if it helps you walk out.
8. No. But did I deserve this letter? No, I did not. And did that nice girl who stripped down for you deserve to be called "sluttish"? No, she did not. (A note to all the 22-year-old virgins out there: a single, unattached, non-drama-seeking/creating girl who makes a pass at you, even a pass that seems clumsy and/or unbecoming, is a better investment of your time and romantic energy than an attached girl with a talent for relationship theatrics. Sometimes people who are interested in us behave in "weird and awkward" ways because they're actually weird and awkward—they're legitimately off-putting—but sometimes otherwise nice people behave weirdly or awkwardly because they're nervous. And there's only way to determine if if someone is actually weird or if they were just nervous: give 'em a second a chance.)
9. Only an idiot would say anything else.
A few final answers: Couldn't say. No clue. Beats me.
2
I made it up to the part about watching a "delightful movie," assumed he got dumped (by the girl he deemed non-sluttish, of course) and skipped to the end to see Dan set him straight.
That part was great.
That part was great.
3
Did u post that to make us feel your pain in receiving outrageously long letters composed by immature idiots? Who cares what this guy does? #Loser!
4
"I am nerdy and most often described as 'strange' or 'goofy' or 'bizarre'.
I never would have guessed it.
I never would have guessed it.
6
Oh yes you can. The guy is a moron and needs to grow up fast if he doesn't want to die a virgin.
A few final answers: Couldn't say. No clue. Beats me.
Oh yes you can. The guy is a moron and needs to grow up fast if he doesn't want to die a virgin.
8
I couldn't read it all either. Between throwing out a girl for stripping for him, naming the principles of this story "Stella" and "Stanley," and his long windedness, I can only say, solving shit like this is what being in your 20s is all about.
10
You don't need to read all of it. The length alone is enough to say "Whatever the situation is, get out." It would seem to me that he "enjoys" these theatrics as much as Stanley and Stella; especially if you consider his prose and pacing. He has made a whole story out of this and he was really writing to Dan just to see if a "happy ending" is within his narrative. (Short answer: No.)
11
I stopped reading at "sluttish." I could have (and would have) told him right there why he has issues with women.
13
A girl got naked for you and you did not sleep with her? Fucking stupid! Just fucking stupid! Yeah, go beat yourself up!
15
His life story is so riveting and unusual that I couldn't stop reading until about the 3rd paragraph.
16
@10,
He also clearly enjoys fixating on one woman, who he's decided is the woman of his dreams. Extremely unhealthy and shitty behavior.
He also clearly enjoys fixating on one woman, who he's decided is the woman of his dreams. Extremely unhealthy and shitty behavior.
20
About half way through reading this letter I ran around my apartment breaking out all the lights with the heel of my slipper.
21
I made it all the way to "Apparently, he became 'emo' and began to slap himself and say he was sorry over and over and over" and then I was laughing too hard to continue. NIGHTMARES
22
Oy vey. Yeah, he definitely lost me at "sluttishness." Sorry, dude, I hope you waste more of your life on this Stella drama. You are definitely not the star of that show.
23
"the last girl undressed herself for me after knowing me for five days. I didn't sleep with her because I was turned off by this sluttish behavior"
This is why you have not, and probably will never be, involved with a sane girl BPOAT.
Also I'm like 99.9% certain the convention in question was an anime convention and all that drama took place while the players were dressed as Final Fantasy characters. For some reason every anime nerd I've ever met that has completely fallen down the japanimation rabbit hole THRIVES on this kind of never-ending social drama.
This is why you have not, and probably will never be, involved with a sane girl BPOAT.
Also I'm like 99.9% certain the convention in question was an anime convention and all that drama took place while the players were dressed as Final Fantasy characters. For some reason every anime nerd I've ever met that has completely fallen down the japanimation rabbit hole THRIVES on this kind of never-ending social drama.
24
He's 22, he's never had sex, and he was turned OFF by a naked girl? Is... is he sure he's straight?
25
That "sluttish" comment leads me to believe that you're the kind of nerd that thinks he loves and respects women because he puts them on a pedestal. I was interested in someone like that when I was in college, only to be deemed unworthy because I had a liberal view toward sex, i.e. I liked it.
You pine for "Stella" because she's this poor girl you feel like you can rescue and be seen for the true and wonderful man you are. But you're not a man, you're still a boy with romantic delusions colored by your nerdy background.
If you don't want to engage in one-night stands or sleep with someone until your in "love", bully for you, but others wanting those things does not make them objects of derision.
You pine for "Stella" because she's this poor girl you feel like you can rescue and be seen for the true and wonderful man you are. But you're not a man, you're still a boy with romantic delusions colored by your nerdy background.
If you don't want to engage in one-night stands or sleep with someone until your in "love", bully for you, but others wanting those things does not make them objects of derision.
26
Kid really buried the lede with that offhand comment about the girl that took her clothes of for him, didn't he?
I mean, even if you aren't into her and don't want to fuck her, if someone puts herself out there like that FOR YOU, you should be really, really nice to her. That's sort of basic human decency 101. Until you learn that, you don't deserve to get laid.
Seriously, the cast of Streetcar is not your problem...
I mean, even if you aren't into her and don't want to fuck her, if someone puts herself out there like that FOR YOU, you should be really, really nice to her. That's sort of basic human decency 101. Until you learn that, you don't deserve to get laid.
Seriously, the cast of Streetcar is not your problem...
27
I stopped reading at "I am almost 22..." who really cares at 22 what "history" he as with women. Live life you clown and make every mistake in the book, ONCE. After that you won't need any ones advice other than to hear them talk.
28
I was smelling the nerd in this guy's writing long before got to the convention. He's a young nerdy man in a big nerdy group of nerdfriends. That kind of thing can be a serious echo chamber, and nerdfriends tend to nerd about angsty nerd things together (anime, roleplaying, comic books), increasing the group drama.
Get some fresh air, man. Stella sounds like she has an even bigger case of nerdfriends tunnel-vision- these men are the only men on Earth and this drama is the only source of entertainment that will let her live up to the high drama of (anime, LARP scenarios, comic book, furry fanfics, Star Trek, whatever it is).
Consider practicing a more colloquial writing style.
Get some fresh air, man. Stella sounds like she has an even bigger case of nerdfriends tunnel-vision- these men are the only men on Earth and this drama is the only source of entertainment that will let her live up to the high drama of (anime, LARP scenarios, comic book, furry fanfics, Star Trek, whatever it is).
Consider practicing a more colloquial writing style.
30
I read as far as "The story, I feel, is necessary to understanding my crisis," skipped down to the bottom and skimmed some of his questions, then settled in to enjoy Dan's response. LW was wrong about the novel being necessary.
31
I can't believe I read that whole thing. I think my brain is dribbling out my ears, and yet I can't make myself care about anyone in this story. You're all massive drama queens, you in particular seem to vastly overestimate our interest in the exact timeline of your drama, and ten minutes from now the only thing I will remember about this letter is that you called that girl a slut. Because seriously, LW, eat shit for that.
32
Dan has previously given good advice to virgins, which I feel he should bring back for this boy. In the meantime, BPOAT should go get laid. With one of those nice girls who find you attractive enough to make out with. Take off her clothes (with her participation), don't call her a slut, touch each others' genitals, kiss each others' genitals, and generally (but not necessarily on the first date) work your way around to rubbing your genitals together. Stop worrying about other people's lives, and live your own life.
33
Dude, you're Backup Guy. The guy that the girl with the asshole boyfriend keeps around for an ego boost. Movies notwithstanding, Backup Guy doesn't get the girl. But I think you're fine with that, really, because you sound terrified of actual women and actual relationships, so you latch on to this woman you can't have and pass up girls who might actually like you and sleep with you, calling them "sluttish." That girl (the one who stripped) scared the shit out of you, and you demean her rather than just admit that. That sucks, and I hope against hope you didn't actually say that to her face.
34
@16
Also a behavior that, while probably not foreign to the majority of men, seems extremely predominant among nerds.
Maybe it has something to do with fixating on the cheerleader when they were the "loser" in high school. Maybe it's some sort of misplaced belief that they are starring in a "Revenge of the Nerds"-style romantic comedy. Maybe it's a collective head injury.
Who knows? All I can say is, I am a nerd girl who ADORES nerdy boys, and all I'd need to do is stick my arm out at a sci-fi convention to run into one who is still obsessing over "the one that got away."
Also a fun unexplained male nerd behavior: being unconventionally attractive (example: main topics of conversation are physics equations and Dr. Who, body type is best described as "rotund" and has gotten laid by one girl his entire life) rejecting a girl for being "too ugly" for him.
Yep. Happened to me, AFTER dating them for several months. Twice.
Also a behavior that, while probably not foreign to the majority of men, seems extremely predominant among nerds.
Maybe it has something to do with fixating on the cheerleader when they were the "loser" in high school. Maybe it's some sort of misplaced belief that they are starring in a "Revenge of the Nerds"-style romantic comedy. Maybe it's a collective head injury.
Who knows? All I can say is, I am a nerd girl who ADORES nerdy boys, and all I'd need to do is stick my arm out at a sci-fi convention to run into one who is still obsessing over "the one that got away."
Also a fun unexplained male nerd behavior: being unconventionally attractive (example: main topics of conversation are physics equations and Dr. Who, body type is best described as "rotund" and has gotten laid by one girl his entire life) rejecting a girl for being "too ugly" for him.
Yep. Happened to me, AFTER dating them for several months. Twice.
35
This letter is 2,665 words. For those of us with little patience, here's a 50 word summary.
I have problems relating to women. I call the ones who like me "sluttish" and wonder why I'm a virgin. I fall for drama queens and wonder why I get into romantic triangles. I feel the need to tell Dan Savage what second base entails. What do I do now?
Whatever English lit program this dude is in needs to either teach him something or kick him out.
I have problems relating to women. I call the ones who like me "sluttish" and wonder why I'm a virgin. I fall for drama queens and wonder why I get into romantic triangles. I feel the need to tell Dan Savage what second base entails. What do I do now?
Whatever English lit program this dude is in needs to either teach him something or kick him out.
37
@15 "His life story is so riveting and unusual that I couldn't stop reading until about the 3rd paragraph. " HAHAHA
This is such classic Nice Guy(tm), Knight in Shining Armor bullshit. I don't even trust his assessment of Stanley because he's cast Stanley into the roll of the villain, himself as the knight,
Stella as the Damsel in Distress caught under the spell of the villain. Stella is not that into him. He happened to catch her at an opportune time, but she is completely caught up in the grand romance starring her and Stanley. Oh, well, they're kids and in ten years this will all seem very silly.
This is such classic Nice Guy(tm), Knight in Shining Armor bullshit. I don't even trust his assessment of Stanley because he's cast Stanley into the roll of the villain, himself as the knight,
Stella as the Damsel in Distress caught under the spell of the villain. Stella is not that into him. He happened to catch her at an opportune time, but she is completely caught up in the grand romance starring her and Stanley. Oh, well, they're kids and in ten years this will all seem very silly.
40
Even aside from the "sluttish" comment, TL:DR dude. I thought you were in early high school until you mentioned that you have a job. Next time you tell this story, condense it. It'd fit into a tiny paragraph without losing anything but silly details that nobody cares about.
"Why do I always get hurt when I involve myself with women?"
Are you in love solely with being in love? You date because of how a *particular* woman makes you feel, not because of the abstract, disconnected feelings it gives.
"Why do I always get hurt when I involve myself with women?"
Are you in love solely with being in love? You date because of how a *particular* woman makes you feel, not because of the abstract, disconnected feelings it gives.
41
Agree with all the other commenters. This guy is the total cliche of a Nice Guy (R), he even uses all the classic phrases. Aww, poor you, all the girls you want end up picking the bad boy and putting you into the friendzone - whyyy don't those bitches realize that they owe you a fuck? Oh but if a girl wants you then she's a nasty slut, of course.
Grow up, re-examine your life and your own internalized misogyny, and start being the kind of man that a woman would want to be with under normal, drama-free circumstances.
Grow up, re-examine your life and your own internalized misogyny, and start being the kind of man that a woman would want to be with under normal, drama-free circumstances.
43
1. Everyone, especially Dan, sorry that was so long. You're right, I could have just summarized.
2. I regret using the word sluttish. That only came out of how she was okay that we didn't have any condoms and we barely knew each other.
3. Thank you everyone for the bluntness. It's helping clear my mind.
2. I regret using the word sluttish. That only came out of how she was okay that we didn't have any condoms and we barely knew each other.
3. Thank you everyone for the bluntness. It's helping clear my mind.
44
He's just another "Nice Guy". He thinks he deserves to "get the girl" because he's SO damn nice and doesn't mess with sluts and is always there for her, and OMG I'm so much better for you than that jerk, why doesn't she just love MEEEEE?!
Lost all sympathy at the "slut" comment. I hope that girl is getting her fuck on with a trio of Latin hotties in collars at this very moment.
Lost all sympathy at the "slut" comment. I hope that girl is getting her fuck on with a trio of Latin hotties in collars at this very moment.
47
@43, re 2: there are sexytimes things you can safely do without condoms. That'd be my guess as to why the girl was okay with it. Reread all the comments here a few more times.
@Martychan, DAYUM. You're not bi, are you?
@Martychan, DAYUM. You're not bi, are you?
48
@43: It's not about the word itself, but your mentality behind it. It is clear you are scared of women. What would be wrong with getting naked and fooling around? Even if (maybe ESPECIALLY if) you just met her? You are twentyfuckingtwo for chrissakes. No condoms? Don't have intercourse!
But I agree with what others said: You were terrified because she demonstrated sexual agency. Back off of your drama and examine your overall fear of women.
But I agree with what others said: You were terrified because she demonstrated sexual agency. Back off of your drama and examine your overall fear of women.
49
Real nerds don't go for cheerleaders.
I think that the pedestal thing comes usually from lack of experience. I was being bookish while the bungholes that grow up to be the assholes that everyone likes to bemoan get all the attention were learning that girls have mass, body temperature and enjoy attention, even if it's not "respectful" (hah!).
I suppose that the looks thing comes from the same vein of idealization (though I was never quite that stupid about it). When you don't know what real women look like naked, you tend to expect, well, unreal women.
I've since gotten all old and settled down but if I knew then what I know now, way-hey would things have been different. I'd still shun the cheerleaders, though.
I think that the pedestal thing comes usually from lack of experience. I was being bookish while the bungholes that grow up to be the assholes that everyone likes to bemoan get all the attention were learning that girls have mass, body temperature and enjoy attention, even if it's not "respectful" (hah!).
I suppose that the looks thing comes from the same vein of idealization (though I was never quite that stupid about it). When you don't know what real women look like naked, you tend to expect, well, unreal women.
I've since gotten all old and settled down but if I knew then what I know now, way-hey would things have been different. I'd still shun the cheerleaders, though.
50
MrPhonz (if that is indeed your real name), try the word 'forward' to describe the girl's behavior. Less negative connotations than 'slut' and its derivatives, but still gets your point across. Remember, you could have gone for a lot of options that were safer sex, even without a condom.
I remember a LOT of this kind of drama from my early twenties. If you recognize now the mistakes you're making (which many have pointed out above, no need to repeat), you're that much further along in trying to learn from them.
Don't worry. Once you have a little more experience, you'll figure out what you like, and what you don't. Hopefully, you will start to learn what *she* likes as well, and start to do those things. The 'she' there is some girl who not Stella.
I remember a LOT of this kind of drama from my early twenties. If you recognize now the mistakes you're making (which many have pointed out above, no need to repeat), you're that much further along in trying to learn from them.
Don't worry. Once you have a little more experience, you'll figure out what you like, and what you don't. Hopefully, you will start to learn what *she* likes as well, and start to do those things. The 'she' there is some girl who not Stella.
51
Oh, wow. Those are minutes I have lost forever by reading this ... drivel. With his attitude, LW deserves to remain a virgin. In a way, I'm glad he ran away from that - that - that hussy who dared to initiate a sexual encounter. With HIM! If he thought she was a slut merely for that, I'd hate to see what he thinks of women who take pleasure in their sexuality. Whoo-boy.
I wonder if Dan will have the dubious honour of receiving another letter from this drama queen. Dan's readers will probably need to take a day off from work to get through that one.
OTOH, I think I'll take a pass on a sequel. As history has illustrated, they're usually worse than the original. ::groans at the thought::
I wonder if Dan will have the dubious honour of receiving another letter from this drama queen. Dan's readers will probably need to take a day off from work to get through that one.
OTOH, I think I'll take a pass on a sequel. As history has illustrated, they're usually worse than the original. ::groans at the thought::
52
At about what I thought MUST be halfway through this letter, my ADD shorted out my brain synapses and I stopped reading. Then I scrolled down and realized I had been only a QUARTER of the way through the letter, at which point I became glad for my so-called disability and the bullshit it keeps me from having to wade through. I started disliking this guy at "sluttish" and then just wanted to smack the bejesus out of him for being young and dumb. I assume he will grow less dumb as he gets older, but I've always been called overly optimistic.
55
@43
That was almost an apology. Now try this:
"I'm sorry I called that girl a slut. It was terrible thing for me to say, and I have no excuse for it. There is no circumstance that makes it okay for me to use that word as an insult. I will try not to use misogynistic language in the future."
I think @47 and @48 have covered why your excuse is bullshit.
That was almost an apology. Now try this:
"I'm sorry I called that girl a slut. It was terrible thing for me to say, and I have no excuse for it. There is no circumstance that makes it okay for me to use that word as an insult. I will try not to use misogynistic language in the future."
I think @47 and @48 have covered why your excuse is bullshit.
56
@48 and 50: You're right, I apologize for not using a less affronting word. Forward is perfect.
To everyone else who took up an issue with me rejecting a sexual advance, we still got naked and did other 'sexytime' (as someone else put it) things, just no intercourse. I didn't run to the hills as soon as the shirt and pants came off. I don't think I'm afraid of women, but I am taking everything into consideration.
@51: Unlikely, haha, I feel bad already, but I feel like reading through you guys' comments and especially Dan's advice is exactly the slap in the face I needed.
To everyone else who took up an issue with me rejecting a sexual advance, we still got naked and did other 'sexytime' (as someone else put it) things, just no intercourse. I didn't run to the hills as soon as the shirt and pants came off. I don't think I'm afraid of women, but I am taking everything into consideration.
@51: Unlikely, haha, I feel bad already, but I feel like reading through you guys' comments and especially Dan's advice is exactly the slap in the face I needed.
57
Well, BPOAT, you're kind of enabling this shitstorm, in my opinion. Two possibilities:
1. Stella is enjoying all this drama, and keeps gravitating back over to Stanley who I would DEFINITELY say is abusive. (Threatening harm to himself when he is taken to task for being an asshole? CLASSIC emotional hostage-taking.) If this is the case, you need to get the hell out of there like Dan says. If you feel like being a nice guy, tell Stella how woefully unhealthy this is, and advise her to get the hell away from Stanley. (She probably won't take your advice; drama llamas rarely change.)
2. Stella is naive and lovestruck, and doesn't understand that Stanley is a douche big enough to clean out a lady elephant. In this case, get together with Blanche and whatever other of Stella's friends know about her situation and stage an intervention. (If Stella is particularly insecure about her dealings with you, you may want to sit this one out and let her other friends handle things so she doesn't think you're trying to steal her from Stanley.) Hopefully, she'll come to her senses (I suggest bringing some ice water and smelling salts in order to expedite this if need be) and yank Stanley off with a minimum of pain, like a band-aid. (No, that is not a handjob euphemism; she should NOT give him any sexual favors as a goodbye present.) If she does break up with him once and for all (and this includes blocking his phone number and threatening to call the police if she hears from him any more), you need to STAND THE FUCK BACK until she's in a better emotional state. Let HER make a move on YOU when she's ready. Alternatively, you could stop being so damn fixated on her, agree to just be friends (preferably distant friends), and find someone else to date.
Oh, and BPOAT? If a girl who's only known you a few days wants to jump your bones before you're ready to get freaky, let her down easy. Tell her kindly to put her clothes back on and come watch a movie with you. And you damn well better put your arm around her while you're watching. And I thought that I was bad with women. Fuck sake, no wonder you're a virgin.
More...
1. Stella is enjoying all this drama, and keeps gravitating back over to Stanley who I would DEFINITELY say is abusive. (Threatening harm to himself when he is taken to task for being an asshole? CLASSIC emotional hostage-taking.) If this is the case, you need to get the hell out of there like Dan says. If you feel like being a nice guy, tell Stella how woefully unhealthy this is, and advise her to get the hell away from Stanley. (She probably won't take your advice; drama llamas rarely change.)
2. Stella is naive and lovestruck, and doesn't understand that Stanley is a douche big enough to clean out a lady elephant. In this case, get together with Blanche and whatever other of Stella's friends know about her situation and stage an intervention. (If Stella is particularly insecure about her dealings with you, you may want to sit this one out and let her other friends handle things so she doesn't think you're trying to steal her from Stanley.) Hopefully, she'll come to her senses (I suggest bringing some ice water and smelling salts in order to expedite this if need be) and yank Stanley off with a minimum of pain, like a band-aid. (No, that is not a handjob euphemism; she should NOT give him any sexual favors as a goodbye present.) If she does break up with him once and for all (and this includes blocking his phone number and threatening to call the police if she hears from him any more), you need to STAND THE FUCK BACK until she's in a better emotional state. Let HER make a move on YOU when she's ready. Alternatively, you could stop being so damn fixated on her, agree to just be friends (preferably distant friends), and find someone else to date.
Oh, and BPOAT? If a girl who's only known you a few days wants to jump your bones before you're ready to get freaky, let her down easy. Tell her kindly to put her clothes back on and come watch a movie with you. And you damn well better put your arm around her while you're watching. And I thought that I was bad with women. Fuck sake, no wonder you're a virgin.
58
I'm guessing that the young man that provided some oral 4 years ago must not have undressed for him.
I made it to sluttish, than tried to at least skim, but couldn't force myself to give even that much of my attention to this ridiculousness. I like the backstory, I'm a backstory kind of girl. I sometimes find it necessary to give the backstory to explain my lunch choices or other such trivialities. However, this was far too much backstory for something that ultimately doesn't matter. Or at least I don't think it matters. I didn't make it through Dan's response either.
I made it to sluttish, than tried to at least skim, but couldn't force myself to give even that much of my attention to this ridiculousness. I like the backstory, I'm a backstory kind of girl. I sometimes find it necessary to give the backstory to explain my lunch choices or other such trivialities. However, this was far too much backstory for something that ultimately doesn't matter. Or at least I don't think it matters. I didn't make it through Dan's response either.
61
@56
So she was good enough to fool around with, but too "slutty" to date? Hello, Madonna-Whore complex.
*headdesk* I'm done with this shit.
So she was good enough to fool around with, but too "slutty" to date? Hello, Madonna-Whore complex.
*headdesk* I'm done with this shit.
62
@61 no, I attempted to pursue it afterwards, and she said we didn't have that 'magical spark's that you have when you're with someone you're meant to be with.
@60 Yes.
@60 Yes.
63
@56
So let me get this straight... this girl stripped for you... you made out with her and had the non-intercourse fun time, and decided either during or after that she was "too forward."
So her "forwardness" was enough for you to label her "slutty" and "weird/awkward," but enough of a turn-on that you could use her for some make-out time and then go pine after Stella.
I mean... really? REALLY?
So let me get this straight... this girl stripped for you... you made out with her and had the non-intercourse fun time, and decided either during or after that she was "too forward."
So her "forwardness" was enough for you to label her "slutty" and "weird/awkward," but enough of a turn-on that you could use her for some make-out time and then go pine after Stella.
I mean... really? REALLY?
64
@62
Wait, wait... you tried to pursue it, even though you found her slut-like tendencies/forwardness a turn-off? If she actually shut YOU down, then why did you make it seem in your letter to Dan that you found HER off-putting??
Wait, wait... you tried to pursue it, even though you found her slut-like tendencies/forwardness a turn-off? If she actually shut YOU down, then why did you make it seem in your letter to Dan that you found HER off-putting??
65
BPOAT
Here's some advice about how to successfully get women interested in you. Remember, things are trickier once you're in the friend zone, but it's possible to get out. Don't apply any of this to your current situation; she sounds like the worst kind of drama and you're better off without her.
For future use:
No white knighting: this will instantly place you back in the middle of the friend zone. You don't want to be there because it can be very difficult to get out.
If you're interested in a woman, be playfully flirtatious/sexual with her. Never desperate, always have swagger, and never give a fuck. To be clear, not giving a fuck is NOT an invitation to be rude, just a way of saying you're confident (you don't give a fuck if she's not interested) and you're not there to solve her fucking relationship problems (you're there for her present not her past). You're interested and you've got the balls to show it, and if she's not interested no big deal because you don't give a fuck. Much greater odds she ends up all over you. If you're desperate/begging/lack confidence/white knighting, she'll have a much easier time turning you down because you're already in the bag.
Remember, next time you dig a girl, play by the only two rules you need to know: (1) no white knighting, and (2) don't give a fuck. This is really some advanced level shit, so use it responsibly.
Here's some advice about how to successfully get women interested in you. Remember, things are trickier once you're in the friend zone, but it's possible to get out. Don't apply any of this to your current situation; she sounds like the worst kind of drama and you're better off without her.
For future use:
No white knighting: this will instantly place you back in the middle of the friend zone. You don't want to be there because it can be very difficult to get out.
If you're interested in a woman, be playfully flirtatious/sexual with her. Never desperate, always have swagger, and never give a fuck. To be clear, not giving a fuck is NOT an invitation to be rude, just a way of saying you're confident (you don't give a fuck if she's not interested) and you're not there to solve her fucking relationship problems (you're there for her present not her past). You're interested and you've got the balls to show it, and if she's not interested no big deal because you don't give a fuck. Much greater odds she ends up all over you. If you're desperate/begging/lack confidence/white knighting, she'll have a much easier time turning you down because you're already in the bag.
Remember, next time you dig a girl, play by the only two rules you need to know: (1) no white knighting, and (2) don't give a fuck. This is really some advanced level shit, so use it responsibly.
66
I'm not entirely sure Stella deserves to get labeled as a "drama queen" quite yet--it seems to me pretty possible that she has serious self-esteem issues, is trapped in an (at least) emotionally abusive relationship, and doesn't understand that she deserves better. The big tip-off is that she reacts very angrily and defensively to those who want her to leave him. That, and the classic cycle of mistreatment-apology-more-mistreatment-repeat. This girl needs therapy, not derision. Also, "she'll stop being like this once her friends stop paying attention" is kinda dangerous: even if Stanley himself isn't overtly abusive, she's got all the vulnerabilities to wind up with an abusive guy, and these guys' main strategy is to isolate their victims from friends or other means of support.
Otherwise, TOTALLY agree with everyone about the LW...boy's got some SEEEEEEERIOUS intimacy issues, and every NiceGuy(R) cliche there is. Totally feels he's entitled to whatever girl he wants, resents what he can't have, devalues what he can (and none of these excuses for calling that girl "sluttish" even BEGIN to justify the blatant display of assholery there!), and is about six months away from concluding, "Oh, but I HAVE to be mean to women! They just need men to treat them like shit to find them attractive! I was nice and it didn't work with this one girl so now I'm entitled to hate women forever and question their judgment--after all, this girl didn't want MEEEE!!!!"
Aaaand another thing: this girl is seriously causing you to "lose trust in women"? OMG, total NiceGuy(R) asshole alert! And WHY is she causing you to "lose trust in women"? Because she's in the middle of a very messy breakup and isn't available for you the very minute you want her to be? Who in the world HASN'T been a total wayward mess in the immediate breakup of a significant relationship?!?! And what do you mean by "trust"? A "trustworthy" girl should be totally ready to cater to your needs physically, emotionally, and socially as soon as YOU want her to be there for you, no matter what is going on in her life? The fact that her life is complicated right now inconveniences your sense of entitlement and therefore violates your "trust" (read: egocentric list of needs and wants)?
Dick.
More...
Otherwise, TOTALLY agree with everyone about the LW...boy's got some SEEEEEEERIOUS intimacy issues, and every NiceGuy(R) cliche there is. Totally feels he's entitled to whatever girl he wants, resents what he can't have, devalues what he can (and none of these excuses for calling that girl "sluttish" even BEGIN to justify the blatant display of assholery there!), and is about six months away from concluding, "Oh, but I HAVE to be mean to women! They just need men to treat them like shit to find them attractive! I was nice and it didn't work with this one girl so now I'm entitled to hate women forever and question their judgment--after all, this girl didn't want MEEEE!!!!"
Aaaand another thing: this girl is seriously causing you to "lose trust in women"? OMG, total NiceGuy(R) asshole alert! And WHY is she causing you to "lose trust in women"? Because she's in the middle of a very messy breakup and isn't available for you the very minute you want her to be? Who in the world HASN'T been a total wayward mess in the immediate breakup of a significant relationship?!?! And what do you mean by "trust"? A "trustworthy" girl should be totally ready to cater to your needs physically, emotionally, and socially as soon as YOU want her to be there for you, no matter what is going on in her life? The fact that her life is complicated right now inconveniences your sense of entitlement and therefore violates your "trust" (read: egocentric list of needs and wants)?
Dick.
67
AUGH! MRPHONZ! So why on earth do you consider her forward if you were there having sexytime WITH HER. She was not stripping for herself, she was not doing 'everything but' by herself, YOU WERE THERE AND YOU STAYED THERE TO ENJOY SEXYTIME *WITH* HER so where the fuck do you get off calling HER forward? Don't you ever dare make a judgement on someone else like that again.
Grow a pair before you let them out for an airing, ok?
Grow a pair before you let them out for an airing, ok?
70
"the last girl undressed herself for me after knowing me for five days. I didn't sleep with her because I was turned off by this sluttish behavior"
stopped reading there. you're an ass. grow up.
stopped reading there. you're an ass. grow up.
71
@34, 39: Yup. Cute indeed.
FWIW, I suspect you were dumped because you didn't look like whatever girl they were pining over. Although giving "too ugly" as the excuse? My gawd, some people should never date.
FWIW, I suspect you were dumped because you didn't look like whatever girl they were pining over. Although giving "too ugly" as the excuse? My gawd, some people should never date.
72
Oh dear, BPOAT. If you re-read this letter in 5 or 10 years, you're gonna be soooooo embarrassed.
(I always cringe reading my journal entries from years ago, but it's all part of growing up, I guess)
(I always cringe reading my journal entries from years ago, but it's all part of growing up, I guess)
73
God, the more details he gives about his interactions with the "slut," the worse it gets! Guy, you are awful! What makes you think you're such a NICE GUY? You don't sound very nice to me. You sound selfish and narcissistic-- god, even your LETTER was selfish and narcissistic just in its length and mind-numbing detail!
74
@39: Whoa, you're super cute! (in the opinion of this ghey). -100 points to douchenerd.
This letter reads like an overlong, badly written, case-study exam question for budding advice columnists. (Sorry, MrPhonz). You need some oxygen (literal and figurative). Go hang out with some people who do not invest all their emotional energy back into a group drama. Or, if that's what you actually enjoy, maybe find a polygamous cult to join, for bonus sexytime?
This letter reads like an overlong, badly written, case-study exam question for budding advice columnists. (Sorry, MrPhonz). You need some oxygen (literal and figurative). Go hang out with some people who do not invest all their emotional energy back into a group drama. Or, if that's what you actually enjoy, maybe find a polygamous cult to join, for bonus sexytime?
76
To everyone,
1. I am not solely fixated on Stella. Additionally, I apologize for using Streetcar. I don't think she's necessarily a drama queen but I agree with Dan that I am being manipulated.
2. As for using the word sluttish, thanks everyone for making me realize that I have some issues I need to work out. I don't have an answer for why I think this girl was sluttish. I feel horrible now, not in a 'oh my god I'ma kill myself way", haha, but more like a "I really need to think about this" way. Thank you.
3. I guess I pursued it because I didn't want to be the guy that makes out with a girl then just forgets about her when it didn't go perfectly. I seriously have no good answer for this. I realize I am digging myself a hole here but I guess you guys are telling me that if I want any kind of healthy relationship I have to dig myself out of that hole before it will happen.
1. I am not solely fixated on Stella. Additionally, I apologize for using Streetcar. I don't think she's necessarily a drama queen but I agree with Dan that I am being manipulated.
2. As for using the word sluttish, thanks everyone for making me realize that I have some issues I need to work out. I don't have an answer for why I think this girl was sluttish. I feel horrible now, not in a 'oh my god I'ma kill myself way", haha, but more like a "I really need to think about this" way. Thank you.
3. I guess I pursued it because I didn't want to be the guy that makes out with a girl then just forgets about her when it didn't go perfectly. I seriously have no good answer for this. I realize I am digging myself a hole here but I guess you guys are telling me that if I want any kind of healthy relationship I have to dig myself out of that hole before it will happen.
78
@76:
1) Yes you are. And get over yourself and your conceit about "being manipulated." Maybe, just MAYBE, this girl is in the middle of some pretty complicated shit in her own life right now, and you are not going to be the center of her attention and her motivations? Maybe she's thinking "What do all these events mean for me and this relationship that has been a big part of my life?" (albeit a fucked up part) and NOT, "How are all these events going to effect the emotions and direct the behavior of mrphonz?"
2) It's not just that you used the word sluttish. It's the whole attitude you have that lies behind the word. For what it's worth, *I* have an answer for why you think this girl was sluttish (and, so, apparently do the vast majority of the commenters on this post!): You have issues with women, a massive sense of entitlement, and want to be in control at all times even though you have no idea what to do with your control. Go to a sex-positive therapist, learn a bit about 3rd-wave feminism and truly appreciating women as sexual beings and as your equals, and just generally stop being such a dick.
3) Read the comments again. WE seriously have a lot of good answers for this, but none of them put you in a very good light. Also, stop the sour-grapes about this girl. Stop calling her slutty. Stop rationalizing about why it didn't work out (ESPECIALLY not in ways that belittle her!). Just acknowledge that you blew this, big time. Another thing, am I the only one who finds all this "I guess you guys are telling me" a lot of approval-seeking and not a lot of genuine soul-searching?
1) Yes you are. And get over yourself and your conceit about "being manipulated." Maybe, just MAYBE, this girl is in the middle of some pretty complicated shit in her own life right now, and you are not going to be the center of her attention and her motivations? Maybe she's thinking "What do all these events mean for me and this relationship that has been a big part of my life?" (albeit a fucked up part) and NOT, "How are all these events going to effect the emotions and direct the behavior of mrphonz?"
2) It's not just that you used the word sluttish. It's the whole attitude you have that lies behind the word. For what it's worth, *I* have an answer for why you think this girl was sluttish (and, so, apparently do the vast majority of the commenters on this post!): You have issues with women, a massive sense of entitlement, and want to be in control at all times even though you have no idea what to do with your control. Go to a sex-positive therapist, learn a bit about 3rd-wave feminism and truly appreciating women as sexual beings and as your equals, and just generally stop being such a dick.
3) Read the comments again. WE seriously have a lot of good answers for this, but none of them put you in a very good light. Also, stop the sour-grapes about this girl. Stop calling her slutty. Stop rationalizing about why it didn't work out (ESPECIALLY not in ways that belittle her!). Just acknowledge that you blew this, big time. Another thing, am I the only one who finds all this "I guess you guys are telling me" a lot of approval-seeking and not a lot of genuine soul-searching?
79
PLEASE make this into a movie. I laughed so hard, and the more I scrolled down and saw that the drama carried on, with more people slashing their wrists and judging each other on their wrist slashing, the harder I laughed. This is like, emo drama snuff porn!
Advice to BPOAT: round up your posse, make a nerd orgy film for HUMP!, it'll be much healthier.
Advice to BPOAT: round up your posse, make a nerd orgy film for HUMP!, it'll be much healthier.
80
Ughhhhhhhhhhh I hate Nice Guys(tm).
So glad I skimmed this. So glad I read @35. So glad I'm in my 30s and don't have to deal with dating children like these.
So glad I skimmed this. So glad I read @35. So glad I'm in my 30s and don't have to deal with dating children like these.
81
dude,
It's nice to have you comment, and you seem to be taking some harsh criticism very openmindedly. kudos for that.
Now take some advice from a guy who has been there: get out now. I appreciate that you are all young, but stella, much as you like her, has emotional problems and relationship understanding and boundary problems and they aren'tgoing to change. You can't save her. Deep down, she doesn't want to be saved. She wants to be the center of attention.
If you want love, get out. If you want stability, get out. If you want privacy in your next romantic relationship, get out. Find some new friends, especially ones who have more normal dating relationships.
Here's what you do with stella:
"I am sorry I made out iwth you when your breakup was still in flux. I have liked you for a long time, and didn't want to wait to take it further. I know see it was a big mistake. I don't think we are right for each other. And I am telling you as a friend that you need to get your shit together I think our friendship is going to have to either end or take a break until we are both in decent relationships with other people.
Good luck"
Then you walk away.
Go find a nice girlfriend.
It's nice to have you comment, and you seem to be taking some harsh criticism very openmindedly. kudos for that.
Now take some advice from a guy who has been there: get out now. I appreciate that you are all young, but stella, much as you like her, has emotional problems and relationship understanding and boundary problems and they aren'tgoing to change. You can't save her. Deep down, she doesn't want to be saved. She wants to be the center of attention.
If you want love, get out. If you want stability, get out. If you want privacy in your next romantic relationship, get out. Find some new friends, especially ones who have more normal dating relationships.
Here's what you do with stella:
"I am sorry I made out iwth you when your breakup was still in flux. I have liked you for a long time, and didn't want to wait to take it further. I know see it was a big mistake. I don't think we are right for each other. And I am telling you as a friend that you need to get your shit together I think our friendship is going to have to either end or take a break until we are both in decent relationships with other people.
Good luck"
Then you walk away.
Go find a nice girlfriend.
82
@39 I second the above commenter. You don't happen to be bi, do you? You're a total cutie-pie!
But god...did I actually read that whole thing? That was... Uh... Well, we'll say I knew it'd be bad when he called his situation a "crisis". Kid wouldn't know a crisis if it bitch slapped him across the head. And I can't believe he's almost my age (22). I pegged him as a high schooler.
But for real, typical nerd behavior. Most of my friends are nerds. They have this weird idea that since they are NICE (TM) women just have to like them, and they are just too stupid/naive/blind to see what they're missing out on by not dating such a NICE (TM) guy. It's damn patronizing.
And honestly, I don't see why he has the right to be mad at Stella anyway. He swooped in, mere hours after her break up, when she's feeling vulnerable, does the "nice guy" song and dance, and then gets pissed when she comes to her senses and tells him to slooooow the fuck down? He's just as manipulative and selfish, and they're all total asshats though. Every one of them.
But god...did I actually read that whole thing? That was... Uh... Well, we'll say I knew it'd be bad when he called his situation a "crisis". Kid wouldn't know a crisis if it bitch slapped him across the head. And I can't believe he's almost my age (22). I pegged him as a high schooler.
But for real, typical nerd behavior. Most of my friends are nerds. They have this weird idea that since they are NICE (TM) women just have to like them, and they are just too stupid/naive/blind to see what they're missing out on by not dating such a NICE (TM) guy. It's damn patronizing.
And honestly, I don't see why he has the right to be mad at Stella anyway. He swooped in, mere hours after her break up, when she's feeling vulnerable, does the "nice guy" song and dance, and then gets pissed when she comes to her senses and tells him to slooooow the fuck down? He's just as manipulative and selfish, and they're all total asshats though. Every one of them.
83
@78: Awesome. "How are all these events going to effect the emotions and direct the behavior of mrphonz?"
I literally laughed out loud. Good thing I'm the only one in the office.
I literally laughed out loud. Good thing I'm the only one in the office.
84
1. From one nerd to another, this Blanche is not canon.
2. This chick could be in an abusive relationship, but people who ARE in abusive relationships do not need to be saved. I work at a shelter, and if we told the women (and men) who came in to leave their partners, we would be no better than their partners who also try to control them. So by trying to tell her what to do, no one in the situation was helping. You can tell her it sounds like its abusive, and she may want to consider talking to an unbiased party-ahem-therapist, and that you will support her in her choices....although, this is n/a now b/c I agreee with Dan that you should cut this girl out.
2. This chick could be in an abusive relationship, but people who ARE in abusive relationships do not need to be saved. I work at a shelter, and if we told the women (and men) who came in to leave their partners, we would be no better than their partners who also try to control them. So by trying to tell her what to do, no one in the situation was helping. You can tell her it sounds like its abusive, and she may want to consider talking to an unbiased party-ahem-therapist, and that you will support her in her choices....although, this is n/a now b/c I agreee with Dan that you should cut this girl out.
85
"..poor history with women.."
"the last girl undressed herself for me after knowing me for five days. I didn't sleep with her because I was turned off by this sluttish behavior"
Q.E.D.
I was so close to stopping after "sluttish", now I wish I had.
@Martychan, contact info?
"the last girl undressed herself for me after knowing me for five days. I didn't sleep with her because I was turned off by this sluttish behavior"
Q.E.D.
I was so close to stopping after "sluttish", now I wish I had.
@Martychan, contact info?
86
@76 I really wanna know what kind of convention you were at.
Anime? Comic book? Star Trek? Furry?
I can't solve all your problems until I know what kind of geek I'm dealing with.
Anime? Comic book? Star Trek? Furry?
I can't solve all your problems until I know what kind of geek I'm dealing with.
87
@76: You seem to be taken your (deserved) lumps here, so I won't contribute to the pile-on. A few suggestions going forward, though:
1a.) When you meet a girl you like, make your intentions known quickly. That doesn't mean declaring your undying love or propositioning her; it just means some flirting, as in "you look really hot in that dress." There's an art to letting a girl know that you're physically interested in her, and the "line" differs with each girl, so you'll just have to stumble around until you pick it up. But don't approach her as a friend in the hopes of someday, eventually getting in her pants. That's manipulative and deceitful.
1b.) When you hook up with a girl the same day she dumps a guy, you have to expect to be Rebound Boy. As you know from Stella's own prior history, break-ups are not necessarily permanent, and swooping in raises the real risk that you'll be tossed aside when she gets back together with the previous dude. What happened was entirely predictable, and you have only yourself to blame for walking into that.
2.) It's OK for guys to want sex. That doesn't make them assholes as opposed to sensitive nice guys. It's OK for girls to want sex. That doesn't make them sluts or even forward. Most of us are hard-wired to want sex, and we should all own up to that. The sooner you start thinking of yourself and other people as sexual beings, the sooner you'll be comfortable with having sex.
3.) Stop thinking of how you want other people to perceive your relationship goals, and start thinking about what you actually want. If you're not (for instance) attracted to blonds, don't worry about how other people might see you as superficial. Admit to yourself that you're not attracted to blonds, and don't hit on them. If you're honest with yourself and with potential partners about what you want, you're a lot less likely to trip across hidden land mines, like whatever derailed your sexytime with the naked girl.
In other words, never date a girl because of what other people think. Date her because you think she's hot, you want to fuck her, and you're hoping that there might be some interesting activities/conversations in addition to the fucking. As long as you and she are on the same page, everyone else can go blow themselves.
More...
1a.) When you meet a girl you like, make your intentions known quickly. That doesn't mean declaring your undying love or propositioning her; it just means some flirting, as in "you look really hot in that dress." There's an art to letting a girl know that you're physically interested in her, and the "line" differs with each girl, so you'll just have to stumble around until you pick it up. But don't approach her as a friend in the hopes of someday, eventually getting in her pants. That's manipulative and deceitful.
1b.) When you hook up with a girl the same day she dumps a guy, you have to expect to be Rebound Boy. As you know from Stella's own prior history, break-ups are not necessarily permanent, and swooping in raises the real risk that you'll be tossed aside when she gets back together with the previous dude. What happened was entirely predictable, and you have only yourself to blame for walking into that.
2.) It's OK for guys to want sex. That doesn't make them assholes as opposed to sensitive nice guys. It's OK for girls to want sex. That doesn't make them sluts or even forward. Most of us are hard-wired to want sex, and we should all own up to that. The sooner you start thinking of yourself and other people as sexual beings, the sooner you'll be comfortable with having sex.
3.) Stop thinking of how you want other people to perceive your relationship goals, and start thinking about what you actually want. If you're not (for instance) attracted to blonds, don't worry about how other people might see you as superficial. Admit to yourself that you're not attracted to blonds, and don't hit on them. If you're honest with yourself and with potential partners about what you want, you're a lot less likely to trip across hidden land mines, like whatever derailed your sexytime with the naked girl.
In other words, never date a girl because of what other people think. Date her because you think she's hot, you want to fuck her, and you're hoping that there might be some interesting activities/conversations in addition to the fucking. As long as you and she are on the same page, everyone else can go blow themselves.
89
If you learn anything from this, MrPhonz, may it be to CARRY YOUR OWN CONDOMS!
That way, when the nice girl strips for you, you can have PiV sexyfuntimes and maybe find a nice, sane girlfriend instead of getting sucked into drama like this. Is it too late to call up that nice girl? You totally should, and ditch Stella. Tell her that it's obvious that she's got her own shit to work out, and you've got your own shit to work out, and getting involved in each other's shit isn't helping either of you.
Then call up the nice girl, buy a pack of Trojans, and go watch a delightful movie with her. And then maybe enjoy some sexyfuntimes.
To the commenters at large: Not all geeks are like this, I promise. Some of us can handle our own shit without getting drama all over everyone.
Though, I have to ask - MrPhonz, you're a LARPer, aren't you? Or at least super into fantasy novels and story-intensive RPGs? Real Life isn't a Robert Jordan novel.
That way, when the nice girl strips for you, you can have PiV sexyfuntimes and maybe find a nice, sane girlfriend instead of getting sucked into drama like this. Is it too late to call up that nice girl? You totally should, and ditch Stella. Tell her that it's obvious that she's got her own shit to work out, and you've got your own shit to work out, and getting involved in each other's shit isn't helping either of you.
Then call up the nice girl, buy a pack of Trojans, and go watch a delightful movie with her. And then maybe enjoy some sexyfuntimes.
To the commenters at large: Not all geeks are like this, I promise. Some of us can handle our own shit without getting drama all over everyone.
Though, I have to ask - MrPhonz, you're a LARPer, aren't you? Or at least super into fantasy novels and story-intensive RPGs? Real Life isn't a Robert Jordan novel.
90
Ah crap @76's post didn't load before I posted. Thank you, Comcast!
Anyway, it seems like you're starting to see this correctly. Just because you made out someone doesn't mean that you can or even should pursue them - kissing is just kissing.
Also try being sarcastic with people. Fawningly nice guys tend to put women off.
Anyway, it seems like you're starting to see this correctly. Just because you made out someone doesn't mean that you can or even should pursue them - kissing is just kissing.
Also try being sarcastic with people. Fawningly nice guys tend to put women off.
91
Honestly, I don't know what y'all bitchin' about. I read this thing start to finish laughing all the way to the end, except the gasp that his "sluttish" comment induced, followed by feeling sorry for him. I have little to contribute beyond Dan's advice; I often find his certainty in assigning roles and motivations based on little (and not very solid) evidence a bit unsettling, yet very rarely disagree with his advice.
Mrphonz, you really need to chill and stop all this drama. And next time a girl you've dated for a week might want to get it on, bring condoms. Godspeed.
Mrphonz, you really need to chill and stop all this drama. And next time a girl you've dated for a week might want to get it on, bring condoms. Godspeed.
92
@62
I realize that other people have dogpiled you for this already, and you've apologized, but seriously? Your story has gone from "I was completely turned off by her sluttish behavior" to "We fooled around, she dumped me, and then I called her a slut in a letter to Dan to try to get vindicated."
I realize that other people have dogpiled you for this already, and you've apologized, but seriously? Your story has gone from "I was completely turned off by her sluttish behavior" to "We fooled around, she dumped me, and then I called her a slut in a letter to Dan to try to get vindicated."
93
@86 Anime.
@81 Much appreciated.
@78 I don't think I will be able to convince you, but I am overwhelmed, not just positively, but negatively, by all the advice here. I am going to come back often.
@81 Much appreciated.
@78 I don't think I will be able to convince you, but I am overwhelmed, not just positively, but negatively, by all the advice here. I am going to come back often.
94
If the letter writer was at the same convention I was at (Steampunk World's Fair in NJ) I want to just quietly savor my luck in not running into any of this free-range psychodrama all weekend. May it remain ever so.
95
@76 #3 - or maybe you pursued it because you actually had a fun time and wanted a repeat, and only started thinking of her as a slut after she shut you down?
96
@35:
Maybe Dan could put a link to this at the top of his post to save us all a lot of time?
@39:
Definitely hot!
Maybe Dan could put a link to this at the top of his post to save us all a lot of time?
@39:
Definitely hot!
97
Wow, I'm almost starting to feel bad for this guy, even after being subjected to that letter. Dude, some compassionate advice I wish I'd had when I was younger:
a) What they all said
b) Avoid this kind of drama queen like the plague, she is not your friend and has some growing up of her own to do
c) Don't confuse being considerate and accommodating with being a doormat
d) Don't overthink your decisions
e) Your needs have the same importance as everyone else's, so grant them the same importance--but don't obsess about them
f) No matter what you've been taught, an indecisive, accommodating, manipulable nice guy is even less sexually attractive than a self-confident jerk
g) Don't you EVER AGAIN put down a woman who gets naked FOR YOU. Think of the balls that took, and then go and grab yourself a pair.
f) I mean this in the healthiest possible way: get over yourself, and get on with a real life. Think clearly; write succinctly; act confidently.
Best of luck. Sincerely,
A former 19-yr-old virgin
a) What they all said
b) Avoid this kind of drama queen like the plague, she is not your friend and has some growing up of her own to do
c) Don't confuse being considerate and accommodating with being a doormat
d) Don't overthink your decisions
e) Your needs have the same importance as everyone else's, so grant them the same importance--but don't obsess about them
f) No matter what you've been taught, an indecisive, accommodating, manipulable nice guy is even less sexually attractive than a self-confident jerk
g) Don't you EVER AGAIN put down a woman who gets naked FOR YOU. Think of the balls that took, and then go and grab yourself a pair.
f) I mean this in the healthiest possible way: get over yourself, and get on with a real life. Think clearly; write succinctly; act confidently.
Best of luck. Sincerely,
A former 19-yr-old virgin
98
Dunno why - but you and your comments, mrphonz, remind me a lot of guys I used to go to high school with who were my friends... so I have enough sympathy to say this.
I think you need to do a few things:
1. Set your own boundaries, with a vengeance. Was it OK for Stella to put you through this? If the answer is anything other than NO, you have some serious soul-searching to do. She used you in this situation. Verify in your soul that it was not OK for her to do this. You as a person deserve better treatment, period. Respond to this realization by cutting ties to her forever. She does not deserve a second chance. She doesn't even deserve another conversation with you, except the one where you tell her never to speak to you again.
2. Once you have done this, lay the relationship out in painful detail in your mind. (Pretty sure you can just, like, reference this letter.) Your goal now is not to realize what Stella did wrong - that's obvious. Your harder and more painful goal is now to realize what *you* did wrong. Identify each and every point at which you made a decision in which you harmed, humiliated and demeaned yourself. Never forget that this relationship with Stella was one which *you* invited, one which *you* continued through your actions, and one which, above all else, *you* did not end even when you saw the warning signs. Write down, if you must, every mistake on a piece of paper for yourself to see. Force yourself to search for patterns (it's mathematical and comforting). Once you have noticed the patterns, codify them into a set of rules to take up no more than one page. Less is better, though they have to be of practical use to you. You are going to justify all the pain and humiliation you went through in this relationship by using these goalposts to evaluate every other relationship you will ever be in for the rest of your life.
3. Once you have taken responsibility for the immediate issue - the immediate actions that you have done wrong, and which you can (relatively) easily fix in the future (as soon as tomorrow!!) with changed behavior on your part - it's time to consider the deeper issue. Ask yourself: What do you want from women? What do you expect a woman to do for you? What are the needs of your body/soul that you expect a woman to meet? And how much of that should a woman, or any other human being, *really* have to be responsible for?
I predict, that unless you are the next Bill Gates and can incentivize with millions, you will not be able to have a woman in your life who will perform exactly to the bizarre standards that your Madonna/whore complex has imprinted on your mind. You do indeed have Nice Guy Syndrome - this letter, and your responses, is dripping with it. Look at you backpedaling from the angry, sarcastic comments. You didn't mean it! Oh you're so sorry! You're not sexist, honest you're not! Don't cringe at us - you *absolutely* meant exactly what you said when you wrote it. Own that. Take a good look at it. See what you really are, your own words telling a clear truth about you. Acknowledge it - and, hopefully, change yourself. You won't change if you don't see how deep the rot goes.
Because trust me - if you don't fix this "if a girl actually wants to sleep with me she's slutty and worthless!" brain setting now, 20 years from now you will be just another one of those guys writing to Dan who haven't had sex in 10+ years because their wives lost interest the second the ring was on and the children conceived.
Try looking at women as human beings... they have their own needs and desires and weaknesses and insecurities and crappy passes when drunk. Understand and forgive them. Few, in the end, will hurt you on purpose. They're just fucking up as royally as you fucked up. They're just making their own karma bath that they'll stew in. You've got to take each of them as they come, as an individual at a certain point on her own path.
Even Stella, this bitch who mistreated you so horribly - she wouldn't be doing any of this if she didn't have real, true, unbearable pain in her life, as well as misconceptions about the nature of love as fucked up and twisted as yours are. You're both happy to let yourselves be abused by others. You're more similar than you think. When you realize that, when you feel true deep empathy for Stella, you'll have moved through this period of learning and come out the other side. (Of course you'll also know at that point that the abrupt and brutal public severing of ties is/was the only thing you could do that might possibly help her, and you won't pick up contact.)
4. Keep in mind that if you think about/wish for/want sex with women, and then a woman offers herself freely to you for sex, and then you refuse to have sex with her because and only because it's not appropriate for a woman to want to have sex, then return to jacking off to porn and wishing you could have sex with women, YOU ARE NOTHING MORE THAN A MORON AND A HYPOCRITE. Further point: why were there not condoms in your wallet? You are 22, and should be carrying them on you at all times. NO possible excuses for this overlook on your part.
5. There's hope for you, mrphonz. Clearly, as you can see, you're not the only overly-long-winded nerd who will pass through the valley of the shadow and come out on the other side healthier, happier, and with a great sex life and a good feeling about life in general. This is a blip, not a trend, provided you learn the lessons.
Just never, EVER, forget the lessons.
More...
I think you need to do a few things:
1. Set your own boundaries, with a vengeance. Was it OK for Stella to put you through this? If the answer is anything other than NO, you have some serious soul-searching to do. She used you in this situation. Verify in your soul that it was not OK for her to do this. You as a person deserve better treatment, period. Respond to this realization by cutting ties to her forever. She does not deserve a second chance. She doesn't even deserve another conversation with you, except the one where you tell her never to speak to you again.
2. Once you have done this, lay the relationship out in painful detail in your mind. (Pretty sure you can just, like, reference this letter.) Your goal now is not to realize what Stella did wrong - that's obvious. Your harder and more painful goal is now to realize what *you* did wrong. Identify each and every point at which you made a decision in which you harmed, humiliated and demeaned yourself. Never forget that this relationship with Stella was one which *you* invited, one which *you* continued through your actions, and one which, above all else, *you* did not end even when you saw the warning signs. Write down, if you must, every mistake on a piece of paper for yourself to see. Force yourself to search for patterns (it's mathematical and comforting). Once you have noticed the patterns, codify them into a set of rules to take up no more than one page. Less is better, though they have to be of practical use to you. You are going to justify all the pain and humiliation you went through in this relationship by using these goalposts to evaluate every other relationship you will ever be in for the rest of your life.
3. Once you have taken responsibility for the immediate issue - the immediate actions that you have done wrong, and which you can (relatively) easily fix in the future (as soon as tomorrow!!) with changed behavior on your part - it's time to consider the deeper issue. Ask yourself: What do you want from women? What do you expect a woman to do for you? What are the needs of your body/soul that you expect a woman to meet? And how much of that should a woman, or any other human being, *really* have to be responsible for?
I predict, that unless you are the next Bill Gates and can incentivize with millions, you will not be able to have a woman in your life who will perform exactly to the bizarre standards that your Madonna/whore complex has imprinted on your mind. You do indeed have Nice Guy Syndrome - this letter, and your responses, is dripping with it. Look at you backpedaling from the angry, sarcastic comments. You didn't mean it! Oh you're so sorry! You're not sexist, honest you're not! Don't cringe at us - you *absolutely* meant exactly what you said when you wrote it. Own that. Take a good look at it. See what you really are, your own words telling a clear truth about you. Acknowledge it - and, hopefully, change yourself. You won't change if you don't see how deep the rot goes.
Because trust me - if you don't fix this "if a girl actually wants to sleep with me she's slutty and worthless!" brain setting now, 20 years from now you will be just another one of those guys writing to Dan who haven't had sex in 10+ years because their wives lost interest the second the ring was on and the children conceived.
Try looking at women as human beings... they have their own needs and desires and weaknesses and insecurities and crappy passes when drunk. Understand and forgive them. Few, in the end, will hurt you on purpose. They're just fucking up as royally as you fucked up. They're just making their own karma bath that they'll stew in. You've got to take each of them as they come, as an individual at a certain point on her own path.
Even Stella, this bitch who mistreated you so horribly - she wouldn't be doing any of this if she didn't have real, true, unbearable pain in her life, as well as misconceptions about the nature of love as fucked up and twisted as yours are. You're both happy to let yourselves be abused by others. You're more similar than you think. When you realize that, when you feel true deep empathy for Stella, you'll have moved through this period of learning and come out the other side. (Of course you'll also know at that point that the abrupt and brutal public severing of ties is/was the only thing you could do that might possibly help her, and you won't pick up contact.)
4. Keep in mind that if you think about/wish for/want sex with women, and then a woman offers herself freely to you for sex, and then you refuse to have sex with her because and only because it's not appropriate for a woman to want to have sex, then return to jacking off to porn and wishing you could have sex with women, YOU ARE NOTHING MORE THAN A MORON AND A HYPOCRITE. Further point: why were there not condoms in your wallet? You are 22, and should be carrying them on you at all times. NO possible excuses for this overlook on your part.
5. There's hope for you, mrphonz. Clearly, as you can see, you're not the only overly-long-winded nerd who will pass through the valley of the shadow and come out on the other side healthier, happier, and with a great sex life and a good feeling about life in general. This is a blip, not a trend, provided you learn the lessons.
Just never, EVER, forget the lessons.
99
I can't be the only one here thinking Asperger's, can I?
Also, @39: So, into nerdy guys, huh? I once got into an argument with my wife about whether Rot Lop Fan was a Green Lantern.
...
Wait, is being married a dealbreaker?
Also, @39: So, into nerdy guys, huh? I once got into an argument with my wife about whether Rot Lop Fan was a Green Lantern.
...
Wait, is being married a dealbreaker?
100
@Martychan... Right there with you. In his breakup IM, ex-boyfriend said, "You aren't too ugly." I'd post a photo of myself, too, but I've had a few too many internet stalkers. For the record, though, I think you're really pretty. (I'm bisexual.)
Also, I can totally sweet this sort of drama and writing style and, well, everything coming up with some of my friends. And sometimes nerdy guys who think they're nice guys and who get called nice guys are not, in fact, nice guys. Based on the letter and the posts by mrphonz... I would rule that he is likely one of those "nice guys" who don't actually have the immediate jerkish behavior to set off red flags, but have all sorts of stuff under the surface. Issues with how women should behave and how romance should work, especially. (all of this is based on my experience as a female, bisexual nerd who is attracted to nerdy people and has had nerdy friends for about a decade. Prior to that I was a loner nerd.)
Maybe I'm just thinking about my ex and this other "nice guy" I knew in high school, though. I can elaborate, but I doubt anyone wants to know details.
Therefore, LW, my advice is this: think long and hard about your motivations and how your behavior affects other people. You may not be as nice as your friends think when romance gets involved. Our friends are sometimes terrible judges of that sort of thing.
Also, I can totally sweet this sort of drama and writing style and, well, everything coming up with some of my friends. And sometimes nerdy guys who think they're nice guys and who get called nice guys are not, in fact, nice guys. Based on the letter and the posts by mrphonz... I would rule that he is likely one of those "nice guys" who don't actually have the immediate jerkish behavior to set off red flags, but have all sorts of stuff under the surface. Issues with how women should behave and how romance should work, especially. (all of this is based on my experience as a female, bisexual nerd who is attracted to nerdy people and has had nerdy friends for about a decade. Prior to that I was a loner nerd.)
Maybe I'm just thinking about my ex and this other "nice guy" I knew in high school, though. I can elaborate, but I doubt anyone wants to know details.
Therefore, LW, my advice is this: think long and hard about your motivations and how your behavior affects other people. You may not be as nice as your friends think when romance gets involved. Our friends are sometimes terrible judges of that sort of thing.
101
@99 Doesn't read like Asperger's to me. I grew up with a few kids who all had varying severities and this doesn't read like it to me.
Social awkwardness and TooNice syndrome, certainly (as well as a tendency to fixate on girls), but I don't think it's Aspergers.
Social awkwardness and TooNice syndrome, certainly (as well as a tendency to fixate on girls), but I don't think it's Aspergers.
102
I once dated a self-professed "nice guy" (you know, one of those guys who bemoans that he is constantly getting turned down because he is "too nice") and holy mother of cheese was it a terrible experience. Never, before or since, have I encountered a man who pressured me so hard for sex or was more offended when I tried to assert my boundaries. As far as he was concerned, he was nice and thus had a whole list of things he DESERVED. I'm not overstating the "deserved" part either; that's the word he used. I didn't want to kiss him? To sleep in the same bed as him (not sex, sleeping)? To get married to him after two months of dating? Well, didn't he DESERVE it? And teenage-me thought that well, maybe he was right. After all, wasn't he a "nice guy?" Hadn't he stuck around as my friend even though I was mentally ill? Hadn't he spent time with me? He wasn't at all one of those stereotypical jocks who went and flirted with other girls when we were at a party . . . he just told me about how boring his family found me but how that was ok because he liked me! He didn't try to rape me when he was drunk . . . he just forgot about me and left me without transportation in a town I'd never been to before so he could go to a bar. But he was sorry afterwards! He said so!
Seriously, when men start in about how they have a poor history of women and yet all the serious contributing factors conveniently fall on the women in question, red flags shoot up in my head like a blast of gunpowder. I don't really know anything about the LW, but I'm hoping some of this might strike a cord. I've never, ever known a woman who dumped a guy because he was "too nice." However, I have BEEN a woman who nervously hemmed and hawed around the real reason, either because I was afraid of how he would react or because I didn't understand the real reason myself.
More...
Seriously, when men start in about how they have a poor history of women and yet all the serious contributing factors conveniently fall on the women in question, red flags shoot up in my head like a blast of gunpowder. I don't really know anything about the LW, but I'm hoping some of this might strike a cord. I've never, ever known a woman who dumped a guy because he was "too nice." However, I have BEEN a woman who nervously hemmed and hawed around the real reason, either because I was afraid of how he would react or because I didn't understand the real reason myself.
103
@101: I'll take your word for it, then. I think it was just the degree of hyper-organization and list-making and cross-references.
106
Thanks, Dan... For not responding to my email about needing some advice to advance ally work, but rather to indulge this little idiot who claims in the very beginning of this epic email that he was turned off by a girl who took her clothes off for him after "only" knowing him for 5 days.
Awesome.
Awesome.
107
@106: Give him a break... sadly he has to give the people what they want more than he needs to give you what you need; and look at that, over 100 comments in 4 hours.
Hopefully he will get back to you on your question. (And thanks for your efforts! Keep hope - you are awesome.)
Hopefully he will get back to you on your question. (And thanks for your efforts! Keep hope - you are awesome.)
108
A follow up recommendation for the LW.
I know you have gotten dogpiled over calling the girl a slut. My suggestion it that you spend 4-6 hours reading the "texts from last night" website. It may help you to properly categorize what does and does not constitute slutty behavior by the college age set.
best wishes
I know you have gotten dogpiled over calling the girl a slut. My suggestion it that you spend 4-6 hours reading the "texts from last night" website. It may help you to properly categorize what does and does not constitute slutty behavior by the college age set.
best wishes
109
@108, yes.
Apart from the blatant misogyny, I think the LW is suffering from the sexual manifestation of the mindset "Everyone who drives faster than me is a maniac, and everyone who drives slower than me is a moron."
Apart from the blatant misogyny, I think the LW is suffering from the sexual manifestation of the mindset "Everyone who drives faster than me is a maniac, and everyone who drives slower than me is a moron."
110
Haha thanks for all the positive encouragement guys! Hopefully I have learned my lesson, but you know us womens, with our small brains, always chasing the Bad Boys. (Granted, my Bad Boys got beat up for their lunch money in college and can sustain for days on Pocky, Red Bull and the vapors of their own superiority, but details, details.)
Now to REALLY pile onto the LW, here is my favorite rant about the Nice Guy: http://divalion.livejournal.com/163615.h…
@100 I hope there is a special place in hell for guys like that (and people who talk in the theater.) Also, I am sad you do not have a name.
@Ben I say no, but only because the F# chord is my enemy on the guitar. Thus Rot Lop Fan... can bite me.
@Susan You a big steampunker cosplayer? I'm trying to put together an ode to Batgirl for ConVergence; any tips?
Now to REALLY pile onto the LW, here is my favorite rant about the Nice Guy: http://divalion.livejournal.com/163615.h…
@100 I hope there is a special place in hell for guys like that (and people who talk in the theater.) Also, I am sad you do not have a name.
@Ben I say no, but only because the F# chord is my enemy on the guitar. Thus Rot Lop Fan... can bite me.
@Susan You a big steampunker cosplayer? I'm trying to put together an ode to Batgirl for ConVergence; any tips?
111
Letter writer, I have sympathy for you, because you are young. And I like that you're reading comments and actually trying to change. Here's what I got from the first part of your letter...
So, if I'm a girl and I'm interested in you, and I make a pass then I am likely to be labeled as a slut. If I am in a relationship with someone else, and I'm comfortable letting my boyfriend be physically affectionate of me in public, then I am weak and he's bad. So, being sex-positive isn't okay. Being in a relationship with you, likely means having to feel bad about sex, and maybe acting like I don't really want it or something.
If I take it slow and play it cool, then there's a decent chance you won't be interested in me. Why weren't you interested in those other women? I'm guessing part of it is that they moved too slowly, since part of attraction is often dependent on timing, and you can have attraction die by going too slowly.
If I'm not interested in you at all, we can be friends, but you'll consider yourself friend-zoned rather than just appreciating my friendship.
In order to actually get you to want me, I have to be neurotic and dramatic - like Stella. She did it all right. She acted uninterested in you, strung you along, and then threw a mess of exciting drama at you, which seems to be what you want to be attracted to someone and also view her as a "good girl".
Actually being a good, sex-positive, psychologically stable person isn't as good. I could be wrong on that, but it does seem likely.
The next thing I want to say, and it has been brought up before is that if you are interested in someone, tell them. Acting like someone's friend as a ploy to try to get them into a relationship is a really horrible thing to do. I'm not saying you're doing that, but it sounds like you are in danger of doing that. It's dishonest, manipulative, awkward for the person you're doing it too, and not in any way nice. If you're interested, let the person know. Make a pass. You may be accepted, you may be rejected, or you may get told to wait until the person finds out more. But then you have an honest basis for interacting with that person. And if the person says she isn't interested, accept that and move on. You can consider having a friendship if you really mean it as just a friendship and aren't trying to make it into anything else. But move on as far as trying to find someone for a relationship and/or sex. You won't be everyone's type, and that's okay. It's better to not waste time trying to turn something that isn't likely to work out well into a relationship, and instead focus on finding someone who actually wants what you have to offer. When you spend a large amount of time being friends with people before letting them even know of your interest, you invest a lot of time before you even know if that mutual attraction is possible. And then it also hurts more when it turns out not to be. See if it is, and then figure out if you're compatible beyond that.
More...
So, if I'm a girl and I'm interested in you, and I make a pass then I am likely to be labeled as a slut. If I am in a relationship with someone else, and I'm comfortable letting my boyfriend be physically affectionate of me in public, then I am weak and he's bad. So, being sex-positive isn't okay. Being in a relationship with you, likely means having to feel bad about sex, and maybe acting like I don't really want it or something.
If I take it slow and play it cool, then there's a decent chance you won't be interested in me. Why weren't you interested in those other women? I'm guessing part of it is that they moved too slowly, since part of attraction is often dependent on timing, and you can have attraction die by going too slowly.
If I'm not interested in you at all, we can be friends, but you'll consider yourself friend-zoned rather than just appreciating my friendship.
In order to actually get you to want me, I have to be neurotic and dramatic - like Stella. She did it all right. She acted uninterested in you, strung you along, and then threw a mess of exciting drama at you, which seems to be what you want to be attracted to someone and also view her as a "good girl".
Actually being a good, sex-positive, psychologically stable person isn't as good. I could be wrong on that, but it does seem likely.
The next thing I want to say, and it has been brought up before is that if you are interested in someone, tell them. Acting like someone's friend as a ploy to try to get them into a relationship is a really horrible thing to do. I'm not saying you're doing that, but it sounds like you are in danger of doing that. It's dishonest, manipulative, awkward for the person you're doing it too, and not in any way nice. If you're interested, let the person know. Make a pass. You may be accepted, you may be rejected, or you may get told to wait until the person finds out more. But then you have an honest basis for interacting with that person. And if the person says she isn't interested, accept that and move on. You can consider having a friendship if you really mean it as just a friendship and aren't trying to make it into anything else. But move on as far as trying to find someone for a relationship and/or sex. You won't be everyone's type, and that's okay. It's better to not waste time trying to turn something that isn't likely to work out well into a relationship, and instead focus on finding someone who actually wants what you have to offer. When you spend a large amount of time being friends with people before letting them even know of your interest, you invest a lot of time before you even know if that mutual attraction is possible. And then it also hurts more when it turns out not to be. See if it is, and then figure out if you're compatible beyond that.
112
So here's the deal: rather than jump on this guy (which he deserves, but a lot of us nerds have been to Nice Guy land once or twice, so forgiven), let's make this a teachable moment. Fortunately, this is the sort of thing the internet is good for.
First, an analysis of why, even if you *did* get the girl, it would still be a bad idea:
http://xkcd.com/513/
Second, a deconstruction of the Nice Guy(tm) pheonomenon - note that there are about a babillion of these on the web, many of them very good, and many of them at strongly feminist sites, since the Nice Guy(tm) is typically actually quite a misogynist. I'm going to link one that's from a guy's perspective, because it will be easier to relate to:
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2…
So, don't be that guy. Understand why that guy is bad, and understand his motivations and why they're actually preventing you from having good relationships.
Finally, what do you do to get back on track? I saw a great series of posts on this on ... I think it was Kung Fu Monkey, but I can't seem to find them. A brief synopsis:
* Date. Mess around. The more you do these things, the quicker you will get over this girl. You don't have to be head-over-heels for someone to have fun with them. I've heard the internet is actually a good place to meet people to have not-too-serious dates with - you probably won't find your soulmate but at least you get practice.
* Learn how *not* to "white knight". That doesn't mean get into the pickup artist crap; just learn how to flirt and not take yourself or the girl too seriously. This is an acquired talent, so you need to go on dates to practice it (see above).
* Don't put women on pedestals. Women are people just like you but with slightly different bits. There are some who want/like the same things you do, including fucking.
* Have your own life/interests, which should include doing things with groups of other people who you aren't romantically interested in. You may meet people who you *are* interested in, but at the very least you will have something to talk about that doesn't involve watching anime in your underwear at home.
* Finally, you are crushing on this girl. Real romance is something that grows out of a connection and mutual interests and even (gasp!) friendship - just not the way you're doing it. RECOGNIZE when you are crushing on someone - in love with the *idea* of being with them or some idealized notion of them - rather than forming a real connection. The thing is, you *know* you aren't really connected here; communication is awkward; you're putting on a front; you struggle to make light conversation. When you meet someone you're potentially compatible with, things will feel natural and there will be WAY LESS DRAMA. That person may not turn out to be the love of your life (could just turn out to be a good friend who happens to be female) but there's always a chance.
* And, really finally this time, I have to reiterate: if you are hanging out with a girl and interested and you think you can really relate to her as a person, you have to come out and tell her/ask her out. No wimping out! Avoiding the issue is creepy.
More...
First, an analysis of why, even if you *did* get the girl, it would still be a bad idea:
http://xkcd.com/513/
Second, a deconstruction of the Nice Guy(tm) pheonomenon - note that there are about a babillion of these on the web, many of them very good, and many of them at strongly feminist sites, since the Nice Guy(tm) is typically actually quite a misogynist. I'm going to link one that's from a guy's perspective, because it will be easier to relate to:
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2…
So, don't be that guy. Understand why that guy is bad, and understand his motivations and why they're actually preventing you from having good relationships.
Finally, what do you do to get back on track? I saw a great series of posts on this on ... I think it was Kung Fu Monkey, but I can't seem to find them. A brief synopsis:
* Date. Mess around. The more you do these things, the quicker you will get over this girl. You don't have to be head-over-heels for someone to have fun with them. I've heard the internet is actually a good place to meet people to have not-too-serious dates with - you probably won't find your soulmate but at least you get practice.
* Learn how *not* to "white knight". That doesn't mean get into the pickup artist crap; just learn how to flirt and not take yourself or the girl too seriously. This is an acquired talent, so you need to go on dates to practice it (see above).
* Don't put women on pedestals. Women are people just like you but with slightly different bits. There are some who want/like the same things you do, including fucking.
* Have your own life/interests, which should include doing things with groups of other people who you aren't romantically interested in. You may meet people who you *are* interested in, but at the very least you will have something to talk about that doesn't involve watching anime in your underwear at home.
* Finally, you are crushing on this girl. Real romance is something that grows out of a connection and mutual interests and even (gasp!) friendship - just not the way you're doing it. RECOGNIZE when you are crushing on someone - in love with the *idea* of being with them or some idealized notion of them - rather than forming a real connection. The thing is, you *know* you aren't really connected here; communication is awkward; you're putting on a front; you struggle to make light conversation. When you meet someone you're potentially compatible with, things will feel natural and there will be WAY LESS DRAMA. That person may not turn out to be the love of your life (could just turn out to be a good friend who happens to be female) but there's always a chance.
* And, really finally this time, I have to reiterate: if you are hanging out with a girl and interested and you think you can really relate to her as a person, you have to come out and tell her/ask her out. No wimping out! Avoiding the issue is creepy.
113
People should always reread emails they are about to send or comments they are about to post, even if they're only going out into the void of the internet. I can be wordy at times as well, but I realize that nobody wants to read my ideas if I type up the first things that come to mind and hit "send" without editing them. edit edit edit. That's why we love the internet! We don't have to be charming and concise in real time!
114
There are at least two major problems suggested by your letter, LW. The "slut" thing has already been covered in depth, so I won't go into that.
But here's another thing that's probably tripping you up: based on this letter, it's hard for me to imagine that you're capable of holding a conversation that would keep a girl interested. The fact that you thought all these details were necessary suggests that you are completely out of touch with what anyone else would find relevant or interesting. It's not that the problem you describe is necessarily tear-your-eyes-out boring, but your account of it sure as fuck is. Did you notice how many people here say they couldn't be bothered reading this (and add me to their ranks, although I really made an effort)? Now imagine that every girl you're talking to is similarly bored. If a girl doesn't want to stick around for long enough for you to get through a single story, the odds of you ever getting laid are nil - especially if you label the ones willing to skip over the talking part and go straight to the sex part sluts.
You don't seem like a bad person, just a bit clueless and naive. But the good news is that plenty of people outgrow clueless and naive - hell, most of us were there at some point in our lives. Good luck!
But here's another thing that's probably tripping you up: based on this letter, it's hard for me to imagine that you're capable of holding a conversation that would keep a girl interested. The fact that you thought all these details were necessary suggests that you are completely out of touch with what anyone else would find relevant or interesting. It's not that the problem you describe is necessarily tear-your-eyes-out boring, but your account of it sure as fuck is. Did you notice how many people here say they couldn't be bothered reading this (and add me to their ranks, although I really made an effort)? Now imagine that every girl you're talking to is similarly bored. If a girl doesn't want to stick around for long enough for you to get through a single story, the odds of you ever getting laid are nil - especially if you label the ones willing to skip over the talking part and go straight to the sex part sluts.
You don't seem like a bad person, just a bit clueless and naive. But the good news is that plenty of people outgrow clueless and naive - hell, most of us were there at some point in our lives. Good luck!
115
So here's the deal: rather than jump on this guy (which he deserves, but a lot of us nerds have been to Nice Guy land once or twice, so forgiven), let's make this a teachable moment. Fortunately, this is the sort of thing the internet is good for.
First, an analysis of why, even if you *did* get the girl, it would still be a bad idea:
http://xkcd.com/513/
Second, a deconstruction of the Nice Guy(tm) pheonomenon - note that there are about a babillion of these on the web, many of them very good, and many of them at strongly feminist sites, since the Nice Guy(tm) is typically actually quite a misogynist. I'm going to link one that's from a guy's perspective, because it will be easier to relate to:
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2…
So, don't be that guy. Understand why that guy is bad, and understand his motivations and why they're actually preventing you from having good relationships.
Finally, what do you do to get back on track? I saw a great series of posts on this on ... I think it was Kung Fu Monkey, but I can't seem to find them. A brief synopsis:
* Date. Mess around. The more you do these things, the quicker you will get over this girl. You don't have to be head-over-heels for someone to have fun with them. I've heard the internet is actually a good place to meet people to have not-too-serious dates with - you probably won't find your soulmate but at least you get practice.
* Learn how *not* to "white knight". That doesn't mean get into the pickup artist crap; just learn how to flirt and not take yourself or the girl too seriously. This is an acquired talent, so you need to go on dates to practice it (see above).
* Don't put women on pedestals. Women are people just like you but with slightly different bits. There are some who want/like the same things you do, including fucking.
* Have your own life/interests, which should include doing things with groups of other people who you aren't romantically interested in. You may meet people who you *are* interested in, but at the very least you will have something to talk about that doesn't involve watching anime in your underwear at home.
* Finally, you are crushing on this girl. Real romance is something that grows out of a connection and mutual interests and even (gasp!) friendship - just not the way you're doing it. RECOGNIZE when you are crushing on someone - in love with the *idea* of being with them or some idealized notion of them - rather than forming a real connection. The thing is, you *know* you aren't really connected here; communication is awkward; you're putting on a front; you struggle to make light conversation. When you meet someone you're potentially compatible with, things will feel natural and there will be WAY LESS DRAMA. That person may not turn out to be the love of your life (could just turn out to be a good friend who happens to be female) but there's always a chance.
* And, really finally this time, I have to reiterate: if you are hanging out with a girl and interested and you think you can really relate to her as a person, you have to come out and tell her/ask her out. No wimping out! Avoiding the issue is creepy.
More...
First, an analysis of why, even if you *did* get the girl, it would still be a bad idea:
http://xkcd.com/513/
Second, a deconstruction of the Nice Guy(tm) pheonomenon - note that there are about a babillion of these on the web, many of them very good, and many of them at strongly feminist sites, since the Nice Guy(tm) is typically actually quite a misogynist. I'm going to link one that's from a guy's perspective, because it will be easier to relate to:
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2…
So, don't be that guy. Understand why that guy is bad, and understand his motivations and why they're actually preventing you from having good relationships.
Finally, what do you do to get back on track? I saw a great series of posts on this on ... I think it was Kung Fu Monkey, but I can't seem to find them. A brief synopsis:
* Date. Mess around. The more you do these things, the quicker you will get over this girl. You don't have to be head-over-heels for someone to have fun with them. I've heard the internet is actually a good place to meet people to have not-too-serious dates with - you probably won't find your soulmate but at least you get practice.
* Learn how *not* to "white knight". That doesn't mean get into the pickup artist crap; just learn how to flirt and not take yourself or the girl too seriously. This is an acquired talent, so you need to go on dates to practice it (see above).
* Don't put women on pedestals. Women are people just like you but with slightly different bits. There are some who want/like the same things you do, including fucking.
* Have your own life/interests, which should include doing things with groups of other people who you aren't romantically interested in. You may meet people who you *are* interested in, but at the very least you will have something to talk about that doesn't involve watching anime in your underwear at home.
* Finally, you are crushing on this girl. Real romance is something that grows out of a connection and mutual interests and even (gasp!) friendship - just not the way you're doing it. RECOGNIZE when you are crushing on someone - in love with the *idea* of being with them or some idealized notion of them - rather than forming a real connection. The thing is, you *know* you aren't really connected here; communication is awkward; you're putting on a front; you struggle to make light conversation. When you meet someone you're potentially compatible with, things will feel natural and there will be WAY LESS DRAMA. That person may not turn out to be the love of your life (could just turn out to be a good friend who happens to be female) but there's always a chance.
* And, really finally this time, I have to reiterate: if you are hanging out with a girl and interested and you think you can really relate to her as a person, you have to come out and tell her/ask her out. No wimping out! Avoiding the issue is creepy.
117
Wow, I'm late to the party as usual, but @82 I know EXACTLY what you're talking about when you describe those self-proclaimed "nice guy" nerds. I have a friend from college who basically could've written this letter, although he probably would've come off as even more judgmental than this guy. Once, he actually tried to play the victim based on his purported "niceness," claiming that his "nice guy" status was what made it so easy for women to dump him.
I also know the Stanley type of nerd, who constantly makes offensive jokes about others and then laughs it off if anyone seems to take issue. But oh, if someone makes any sort of remark about him, he will lose his fucking mind, and in some cases, never forgive the person!
And gee...I also know the Stella type of nerd, who can't stand not to be the center of attention (especially when that attention is given by nerdy guys), probably also feels that being both female and a nerd warrants special attention, and can seem pretty cool from time to time, until her penchant for drama overshadows any fun you could be having. (Ahem!)
I also know the Stanley type of nerd, who constantly makes offensive jokes about others and then laughs it off if anyone seems to take issue. But oh, if someone makes any sort of remark about him, he will lose his fucking mind, and in some cases, never forgive the person!
And gee...I also know the Stella type of nerd, who can't stand not to be the center of attention (especially when that attention is given by nerdy guys), probably also feels that being both female and a nerd warrants special attention, and can seem pretty cool from time to time, until her penchant for drama overshadows any fun you could be having. (Ahem!)
118
Martychan, I blushed at your comment about my name. Yeah, you'd definitely be my type. Same nerd circle, from the sound of it, you're attractive, you're nice, and you're witty. (In my somewhat limited experience/opinion.) That guy who dumped you was a nincompoop. (Err, I hope my tone doesn't come out strangely once it's been through the internet.)
And... Yeah, I didn't know any better at the time, but I sure learned a lot from the experience! It's much like what @102 described.
Speaking of which, @102, I'm sorry that you had to go through that. I honestly know just what that's like, except in my case I started wearing pads to get him to stop touching me, he got bored with me, and he dumped me via IM. I wouldn't have had the sense to break up with him... Man, I need to stop thinking about that. Anyway, I really wish you hadn't had to go through that.
And... Yeah, I didn't know any better at the time, but I sure learned a lot from the experience! It's much like what @102 described.
Speaking of which, @102, I'm sorry that you had to go through that. I honestly know just what that's like, except in my case I started wearing pads to get him to stop touching me, he got bored with me, and he dumped me via IM. I wouldn't have had the sense to break up with him... Man, I need to stop thinking about that. Anyway, I really wish you hadn't had to go through that.
119
It looks like I'm just about the only one who found that long letter amusing & adorable. I do have a soft spot for nerdy boys & if I was x years younger I'd be happy to help mrphonz out with that pesky virginity problem. Maybe I'm giving him too much credit but I thought there was a hint of self-deprecation & certainly humor in the way he expressed himself. I wasn't horrified by the 'sluttish' comment either, just thought he longed for something more romantic. He's young and green but look how cool he is about the mass bollicking he's receiving here. I think he'll turn out okay & I do truly enjoy his writing style, numbered points & all.
120
Well trilled, "mr phonz"...amazing that this tedious letter and a few weak troll posts got 111 responses.
121
@78 "'I guess you guys are telling me' a lot of approval-seeking and not a lot of genuine soul-searching?"
Totes lip-service.
Totes lip-service.
122
@103, if I had to pick a label, I would say OCD. He's trying to make sense of all these carefully numbered and essential parts of the story, trying to find some combination that allows him to be angry at Stella but still end up with her. The pieces are not going to fit; there is no happy ending here.
I think the best thing Mr. Phonz can do for his love life is to stop trying to control or understand it. You will not be able to control or understand the woman, and this is OK. Nobody, including the object of your desires, is or should be perfect. Two parts of the letter reveal the precise nature of this guy's problem:
"At this point, Stella tells us #1. I had long suspected something of this nature. It explained why the break-up was so messy, why this entire fiasco happened."
This is the crux of the issue: #1 does not explain anything. Phonz sees an "entire fiasco" here that requires explanation, and THAT is the problem. Stella was conflicted about her bad boyfriend and made out with you, twice, and she'll string you along through this thing as long as you let here. There is no way of making reasonable sense of any of this, and as long as you care to try, you are doomed.
"We stopped talking around 3:30am, with no progress whatsoever"
This is the second revelation of what's really wrong here. You have been talking for hours to both a girl and her friend about the girl's bad relationship. There is no such thing as "progress" in this scenario. If you still feel attracted to Stella, here's what "progress" would be: tell her that you are willing to make out with her, or more, when she comes to her senses and shows up at your door. Until then, she should stop texting you about her dumb relationship problems because you're going to be busy getting laid with someone else. And then, make good on your words. Go back to the delightful "slutty" girl and tell her you had a revelation, saw the light, and want a do-over.
More...
I think the best thing Mr. Phonz can do for his love life is to stop trying to control or understand it. You will not be able to control or understand the woman, and this is OK. Nobody, including the object of your desires, is or should be perfect. Two parts of the letter reveal the precise nature of this guy's problem:
"At this point, Stella tells us #1. I had long suspected something of this nature. It explained why the break-up was so messy, why this entire fiasco happened."
This is the crux of the issue: #1 does not explain anything. Phonz sees an "entire fiasco" here that requires explanation, and THAT is the problem. Stella was conflicted about her bad boyfriend and made out with you, twice, and she'll string you along through this thing as long as you let here. There is no way of making reasonable sense of any of this, and as long as you care to try, you are doomed.
"We stopped talking around 3:30am, with no progress whatsoever"
This is the second revelation of what's really wrong here. You have been talking for hours to both a girl and her friend about the girl's bad relationship. There is no such thing as "progress" in this scenario. If you still feel attracted to Stella, here's what "progress" would be: tell her that you are willing to make out with her, or more, when she comes to her senses and shows up at your door. Until then, she should stop texting you about her dumb relationship problems because you're going to be busy getting laid with someone else. And then, make good on your words. Go back to the delightful "slutty" girl and tell her you had a revelation, saw the light, and want a do-over.
123
I feel like my comment came out all wrong, now that I'm looking at it again. Um. Drat. I wish there were a way to edit or delete it...
What I meant to say is that I think you sound like a cool person, and I'm flattered (genuinely) by your reply.
If that isn't how it came out, I'm really sorry.
What I meant to say is that I think you sound like a cool person, and I'm flattered (genuinely) by your reply.
If that isn't how it came out, I'm really sorry.
124
@123, that's how your post @118 sounded to me, so I'd relax. But I was disturbed by the reference to wearing pads so he would stop touching you. You were using menstrual pads to convince a guy that he should stop touching your privates? How old were you? I'm really upset by that image...
125
@99 You are not the only one thinking Aspergers.
Hey, MrPhonz, I was recently diagnosed with Aspergers myself and the more I read of your letter, the more I thought wow... That's the kind of stupid crap I might have wasted my time with at that age. Actually the whole letter, its length, its overly-formal tone, its organization felt uncomfortable familiar.
Just realize that Dan is right about you needing to walk away. Whenever you find yourself in a situation like this, take some time to process and think how much you actually like Stella as a person and how much you're just obsessing over something you haven't finished yet. Think about how long it must have taken you to write and organize that letter. From your questions, it seems like you don't understand what anyone in this situation is really feeling, including yourself. You spend the whole letter discussing the context, getting lost in the details, and having to ask how you should feel where most people would explain the situation briefly and talk mostly how they feel.
I would definitely think about checking out a website like
http://www.aane.org/ and/or talking to a counselor about the possibility that you have Aspergers. I resisted the idea for a while before checking it out, dismissing it as an easy out because there must be some emotional whatsis wrong with me but nope... it was mostly the Aspergers.
@78 /Aleman:
It's interesting that this kid spends the whole (ludicrously) long letter describing the efforts of him and his friends to get this girl out of a relationship, and you say she's just suffering from poor self esteem and 'trapped' and doesn't deserve to be labeled a drama queen on one hand. Meanwhile on the other hand you think you can impute someone's full view of women from a passing use of the phrase "sluttish behavior," especially given that you say it's not the word it's the attitude behind it. It's almost like you have no insight at all, just a handful of academic-ish femenism buzzwords that you throw out every time someone uses a word on your bad list. It's like a talisman that protects you from having to make an argument!
I'll bet you five bucks American that you've just spent four hours bitching out a kid with a developmental disorder, who was genuinely asking for help. Try not to impute my general attitude towards all women when I call you a total douche.
(See, MrPhonz... I just spent 15 minutes writing a stupid comment on the interwebs. Think about it.)
More...
Hey, MrPhonz, I was recently diagnosed with Aspergers myself and the more I read of your letter, the more I thought wow... That's the kind of stupid crap I might have wasted my time with at that age. Actually the whole letter, its length, its overly-formal tone, its organization felt uncomfortable familiar.
Just realize that Dan is right about you needing to walk away. Whenever you find yourself in a situation like this, take some time to process and think how much you actually like Stella as a person and how much you're just obsessing over something you haven't finished yet. Think about how long it must have taken you to write and organize that letter. From your questions, it seems like you don't understand what anyone in this situation is really feeling, including yourself. You spend the whole letter discussing the context, getting lost in the details, and having to ask how you should feel where most people would explain the situation briefly and talk mostly how they feel.
I would definitely think about checking out a website like
http://www.aane.org/ and/or talking to a counselor about the possibility that you have Aspergers. I resisted the idea for a while before checking it out, dismissing it as an easy out because there must be some emotional whatsis wrong with me but nope... it was mostly the Aspergers.
@78 /Aleman:
It's interesting that this kid spends the whole (ludicrously) long letter describing the efforts of him and his friends to get this girl out of a relationship, and you say she's just suffering from poor self esteem and 'trapped' and doesn't deserve to be labeled a drama queen on one hand. Meanwhile on the other hand you think you can impute someone's full view of women from a passing use of the phrase "sluttish behavior," especially given that you say it's not the word it's the attitude behind it. It's almost like you have no insight at all, just a handful of academic-ish femenism buzzwords that you throw out every time someone uses a word on your bad list. It's like a talisman that protects you from having to make an argument!
I'll bet you five bucks American that you've just spent four hours bitching out a kid with a developmental disorder, who was genuinely asking for help. Try not to impute my general attitude towards all women when I call you a total douche.
(See, MrPhonz... I just spent 15 minutes writing a stupid comment on the interwebs. Think about it.)
126
Do you even like Stella? Did you cast her as your Dream Girl before you really knew her, but now she's stuck in that role? Because from all of your comments, it seems like you kind of don't like her.
And that's okay. Getting to know people better often means liking them less. That's even okay after naked time. You can roll around naked with someone after knowing them for five days, and still decide you've had enough after knowing them for 14 days.
Learn how to date, instead of having these ridiculous fixations that tween-dramas tell us are epic love stories. Learn how to be as interested in your own life as you are in Stella's.
My specific advice is to ask 3 girls out this week. Doesn't matter who. Doesn't matter if you're into the same things. Doesn't matter if you think they're slutty. Doesn't matter if their beauty doesn't stop your breath. Learn how to interact with a variety of people. Learn how to appreciate women. Learn how actual grownups act with each other.
Oh, and @Martychan: you are very desirable. Thank god for men who dropped us before we developed the wisdom to drop them, right?
And that's okay. Getting to know people better often means liking them less. That's even okay after naked time. You can roll around naked with someone after knowing them for five days, and still decide you've had enough after knowing them for 14 days.
Learn how to date, instead of having these ridiculous fixations that tween-dramas tell us are epic love stories. Learn how to be as interested in your own life as you are in Stella's.
My specific advice is to ask 3 girls out this week. Doesn't matter who. Doesn't matter if you're into the same things. Doesn't matter if you think they're slutty. Doesn't matter if their beauty doesn't stop your breath. Learn how to interact with a variety of people. Learn how to appreciate women. Learn how actual grownups act with each other.
Oh, and @Martychan: you are very desirable. Thank god for men who dropped us before we developed the wisdom to drop them, right?
127
BPOAT/mrphonz:
Well, seeing as how Eunice has apparently warmed up to you without bashing your head in with a shovel out of frustration, maybe you should ask her what it is you're doing wrong.
Well, seeing as how Eunice has apparently warmed up to you without bashing your head in with a shovel out of frustration, maybe you should ask her what it is you're doing wrong.
128
I am with the minority who think that you SLOG'rs have short attention spans and just want to be entertained. You're too hard on this guy, whose biggest problem is his youth. I have many many journal entries / letters to /conversations with friends during my 20-22 age which are extremely similar in content form and length.
In summary, I think these comments are the people that I agree with most:
@25 Enigma - to think about.
@33 smidgebean - face it, where stella is concerned, you're backup guy.
@81 alanmt - really good advice/ wording re: stella. take it.
@97 Latebloomer - all good points
@102 Lorran - also worth reading and internalizing
@115 spats - don't put women on pedestals. I am learning this lesson myself. people are not perfect. don't expect them to be, and anticipate dissappointment... accept them as imperfect beings.
@114 fallen angel - important conversational skills
You're the rebound guy. What @81 said. I was a drama queen girl, I strung along my backup guy for years, because I didn't want to let go of my (perfect) boyfriend. She'll never break up with him. And when she does, she won't choose you. :(
I think you kissed her when she was in a vulnerable state, and while I don't think you took advantage of her... there was nowhere good that could go. unfortunately.
end of the day... re-read the people with good advice (aka stuff I agree with :) ). and try to live life with less expectations of how things (and people) "should" be. I am in the middle of learning this myself, so it's a process. Good for you for trying to take all of our advice to heart, the listening thing is good.
also... Let's be realistic. I think you love the drama as much as she does. I'm personally attracted to drama, I thrive in it. But know when it's a good thing, fun drama, and when it's a bad thing-- drama that MAKES YOU FEEL BAD. And try to avoid the latter. Hint: Fun drama is when: you both like each other, and you both WANT to be with each other, and other people are the outsiders... And right now... you're the outsider.
I'm long winded too. Many of my friends don't read my emails either.
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In summary, I think these comments are the people that I agree with most:
@25 Enigma - to think about.
@33 smidgebean - face it, where stella is concerned, you're backup guy.
@81 alanmt - really good advice/ wording re: stella. take it.
@97 Latebloomer - all good points
@102 Lorran - also worth reading and internalizing
@115 spats - don't put women on pedestals. I am learning this lesson myself. people are not perfect. don't expect them to be, and anticipate dissappointment... accept them as imperfect beings.
@114 fallen angel - important conversational skills
You're the rebound guy. What @81 said. I was a drama queen girl, I strung along my backup guy for years, because I didn't want to let go of my (perfect) boyfriend. She'll never break up with him. And when she does, she won't choose you. :(
I think you kissed her when she was in a vulnerable state, and while I don't think you took advantage of her... there was nowhere good that could go. unfortunately.
end of the day... re-read the people with good advice (aka stuff I agree with :) ). and try to live life with less expectations of how things (and people) "should" be. I am in the middle of learning this myself, so it's a process. Good for you for trying to take all of our advice to heart, the listening thing is good.
also... Let's be realistic. I think you love the drama as much as she does. I'm personally attracted to drama, I thrive in it. But know when it's a good thing, fun drama, and when it's a bad thing-- drama that MAKES YOU FEEL BAD. And try to avoid the latter. Hint: Fun drama is when: you both like each other, and you both WANT to be with each other, and other people are the outsiders... And right now... you're the outsider.
I'm long winded too. Many of my friends don't read my emails either.
129
@Anyone who pondered Aspergers or OCD:
Given that these are both disorders one is born with, I am going to have to lean towards the side of disagreeing with your diagnosis of myself. When I was in middle school I saw a psychologist for depression; I have suffered ADD my entire life, but never has anyone diagnosed me with any developmental disorder. I think a mistake I made in my letter was not stating that I am the kind of 'nerd' who is also outgoing and enjoys partying and meeting people.
Obviously I regret writing ever detail for all of your sakes, but for me it allowed me to just... Get it out. Put it all out there so that, after receiving your 4500 and counting words of advice, I can look at what I wrote and what you guys wrote and really evaluate everything honestly.
Given that these are both disorders one is born with, I am going to have to lean towards the side of disagreeing with your diagnosis of myself. When I was in middle school I saw a psychologist for depression; I have suffered ADD my entire life, but never has anyone diagnosed me with any developmental disorder. I think a mistake I made in my letter was not stating that I am the kind of 'nerd' who is also outgoing and enjoys partying and meeting people.
Obviously I regret writing ever detail for all of your sakes, but for me it allowed me to just... Get it out. Put it all out there so that, after receiving your 4500 and counting words of advice, I can look at what I wrote and what you guys wrote and really evaluate everything honestly.
130
@115 I really like that blog post breaking down the true motivations behind "Nice Guy" syndrome! Like I said in my last comment, I know and have met several guys who fit that description! I'm tempted to post it on FB, but a little afraid of the comments I might get. I'm googling it right now, but would you mind linking to some of your other favorite articles/posts about it? I did like that the author of one admitted that he could relate to the mindset, but I'd be interested in reading more.
131
@EricaP: Oh! Oh, I deleted so much of my own rambling from that post that I missed that bit and took away its context. I was fifteen years old, with a highly irregular period; I started wearing pads about a week before there was any sign of it coming, that's all. Um. I wasn't super young or anything, just... Not comfortable with him reaching into my panties without asking. (And he liked to "joke" about how we'd "skipped right to third base." Since he refused to kiss me, but would grope me when no one was looking on the school bus...
Sorry for the confusion! Also, thank you very much for the reassurance!
Sorry for the confusion! Also, thank you very much for the reassurance!
132
MrPhonz, you are going to have to stop being "advice guy" in your set of friends. You like it when girls come to you with their troubles and you can help "solve" the problems or "give advice". All you're doing is self-indulgent wankery, and you'll discover that in time.
Remember, being condescending is not the same as being supportive.
Get involved in fun outside activities and talk about them. When people come to you for private talks about non-important relationship stuff, say you're sorry they're having such a hard time, and then change the subject.
In a few months, you'll be beating the girls off with a stick.
Good luck.
Remember, being condescending is not the same as being supportive.
Get involved in fun outside activities and talk about them. When people come to you for private talks about non-important relationship stuff, say you're sorry they're having such a hard time, and then change the subject.
In a few months, you'll be beating the girls off with a stick.
Good luck.
133
@125: I think the only reason one would use such a blatantly misogynist term like "slut" (to describe entirely normal and even bordering-on-conservative-for-a-college-kid behavior) is if one has some pretty well-entrenched misogyny. Of note, the vast majority of the commenters here seemed to have exactly the same visceral revulsion to the term that I did. It's one of those words that you basically only have to use once for people to figure out a LOT about your true intentions (for a much more extreme example, imagine you only heard someone say the word "nigger" once in the course of a 15-minute soliloquy...you've heard all you need to know!).
What's more, his backpedaling, defensiveness, and further explanation here in the comments emphasizes his distrust of women and a noticeable vindictive streak toward the stripping girl, especially since it seems like she turned him down!
Finally, I don't know of any developmental disorder that causes someone to spontaneously and innocently devalue women for expressing their sexuality. I do know that society at large does that A LOT, though...so maybe his throwing terms like "slut" around has a lot more to do with the cultural "values" he's learned, rather than his innate neurodevelopment? And, disordered or no, what he said was demeaning and hurtful to that particular girl and basically every woman who feels it her right to express her sexuality, ever. When people are demeaning and hurtful, they deserve to get called out. In the (incredibly unlikely) event that some organic disorder is causing that hurtfulness, he needs some major cognitive behavioral therapy to address it, but the rest of us are under no obligation to give someone a free pass on hurting others, because hurting others is not okay.
What's more, his backpedaling, defensiveness, and further explanation here in the comments emphasizes his distrust of women and a noticeable vindictive streak toward the stripping girl, especially since it seems like she turned him down!
Finally, I don't know of any developmental disorder that causes someone to spontaneously and innocently devalue women for expressing their sexuality. I do know that society at large does that A LOT, though...so maybe his throwing terms like "slut" around has a lot more to do with the cultural "values" he's learned, rather than his innate neurodevelopment? And, disordered or no, what he said was demeaning and hurtful to that particular girl and basically every woman who feels it her right to express her sexuality, ever. When people are demeaning and hurtful, they deserve to get called out. In the (incredibly unlikely) event that some organic disorder is causing that hurtfulness, he needs some major cognitive behavioral therapy to address it, but the rest of us are under no obligation to give someone a free pass on hurting others, because hurting others is not okay.
134
Remedial Guide for Nice Guys® Who Genuinely Want to Stop Being Sexist Assholes and Start Having Real Relationships:
Rule #1: In order for someone to be a good match for you, the first requirement - the Prime Directive, if that helps - is that they HAVE TO BE INTO YOU. From now on whenever you're interested in someone else, ask yourself "is she into me?" Until you're 100% certain the answer is an unqualified yes, you don't know if she's compatible with you. Wishful thinking is an instant disqualification. And if she's not compatible with you, pursuing a sexual or romantic relationship is a waste of time and energy. Only put energy into finding out the answer, never into "changing her mind". (And even if she IS compatible with you, she's still allowed to change her mind at some point.)
Rule #2: Women are people. Treat them that way. They are not an alien species. You do not have to put on an act or be a dick or play mind games to win them over. If you start to think that you do, go look at Rule #1. This is a sure sign that SHE IS NOT INTO YOU. Neither do they need to be rescued or saved or shown the light. They're not children, either, and if you think one of them is acting like a child, SHE'S NOT INTO YOU. Friends don't have hidden agendas, so you shouldn't either.
Rule #3: Always be prepared for sex - so ALWAYS pack your own condoms - and always be prepared to not have sex - even after you've started. Never judge them for being ready, for not being ready, or for changing their mind. If they're not ready for sex, see Rule #1.
And finally, Rule Zero: the best way to get a good partner is to be a good partner. The better the person you are, the better the person you'll attract (and be attracted to). Don't put your energy into getting a girlfriend, or getting laid, put your energy into self-improvement - think about what would make you an awesome person to be around, and focus on that. Because whether or not you have a partner, you're going to have to live with yourself, and you better make sure that's worth doing. The rest will follow.
More...
Rule #1: In order for someone to be a good match for you, the first requirement - the Prime Directive, if that helps - is that they HAVE TO BE INTO YOU. From now on whenever you're interested in someone else, ask yourself "is she into me?" Until you're 100% certain the answer is an unqualified yes, you don't know if she's compatible with you. Wishful thinking is an instant disqualification. And if she's not compatible with you, pursuing a sexual or romantic relationship is a waste of time and energy. Only put energy into finding out the answer, never into "changing her mind". (And even if she IS compatible with you, she's still allowed to change her mind at some point.)
Rule #2: Women are people. Treat them that way. They are not an alien species. You do not have to put on an act or be a dick or play mind games to win them over. If you start to think that you do, go look at Rule #1. This is a sure sign that SHE IS NOT INTO YOU. Neither do they need to be rescued or saved or shown the light. They're not children, either, and if you think one of them is acting like a child, SHE'S NOT INTO YOU. Friends don't have hidden agendas, so you shouldn't either.
Rule #3: Always be prepared for sex - so ALWAYS pack your own condoms - and always be prepared to not have sex - even after you've started. Never judge them for being ready, for not being ready, or for changing their mind. If they're not ready for sex, see Rule #1.
And finally, Rule Zero: the best way to get a good partner is to be a good partner. The better the person you are, the better the person you'll attract (and be attracted to). Don't put your energy into getting a girlfriend, or getting laid, put your energy into self-improvement - think about what would make you an awesome person to be around, and focus on that. Because whether or not you have a partner, you're going to have to live with yourself, and you better make sure that's worth doing. The rest will follow.
136
@117 Oh, and don't forget the passive-aggressiveness. Dudes (and gals) like that are ALWAYS passive aggressive.
Dated a guy briefly last month who I could never have a conversation with that was even mildly critical without him completely shutting down on me. He blew me off one evening to go to some BBQ, and I just told him, "Hey man, that wasn't cool. You could have at least told me in advance that you were changing your plans." Oh, and it was my birthday too. Boy blew me off on my birthday.
Anyway, he completely shut down and wouldn't say anything, and later, when he brought it up again, he said I "went ballistic" on him. Ballistic? Really? So typical. "Nice guys never get mad or angry or have confrontations, ever, because it's not NICE." Even calm, rational displays of displeasure are mis-characterized so they can throw it in your face later and make you seem like an unreasonable, angry harpy.
The worst thing is that it's hard to tell they are that flavor of jerk right off the bat. They seem so...nice. At first, anyway. :P
Dated a guy briefly last month who I could never have a conversation with that was even mildly critical without him completely shutting down on me. He blew me off one evening to go to some BBQ, and I just told him, "Hey man, that wasn't cool. You could have at least told me in advance that you were changing your plans." Oh, and it was my birthday too. Boy blew me off on my birthday.
Anyway, he completely shut down and wouldn't say anything, and later, when he brought it up again, he said I "went ballistic" on him. Ballistic? Really? So typical. "Nice guys never get mad or angry or have confrontations, ever, because it's not NICE." Even calm, rational displays of displeasure are mis-characterized so they can throw it in your face later and make you seem like an unreasonable, angry harpy.
The worst thing is that it's hard to tell they are that flavor of jerk right off the bat. They seem so...nice. At first, anyway. :P
140
OMG THIS IS >2600 WORDS LONG.
One writer in the Savage Love corpus was instructed to stop "writing like Faulkner on a three-day bender," and I think that advice goes in spades for you, BPOAT, and then in clubs, hearts, and diamonds to be absolutely certain. Seriously, we're not just talking Faulkner on a three-day bender, we're talking Faulkner, Huxley, and Hunter S. Thompson on a nine-day ether, bourbon, acid, weed, and 2C-I bender.
One writer in the Savage Love corpus was instructed to stop "writing like Faulkner on a three-day bender," and I think that advice goes in spades for you, BPOAT, and then in clubs, hearts, and diamonds to be absolutely certain. Seriously, we're not just talking Faulkner on a three-day bender, we're talking Faulkner, Huxley, and Hunter S. Thompson on a nine-day ether, bourbon, acid, weed, and 2C-I bender.
141
Hey MrPhonz -- just a couple of notes amid the wave of commentary here.
-- You take criticism really well! I could never take the kind of bashing you are getting when I was 22. I'm impressed you are trying to communicate with grace and honesty here.
-- Don't take it all too much to heart. These people don't know you. And I guarantee you that they would never be so aggressive and nasty in person; the internet seems to bring out a really shitty side of people, in which everything becomes entertainment, you know?
-- That said, there is a lot of good advice in those frustrated, angry, dismissive comments. You are indeed not yet aware of what you can and can't control, and what are and are not your responsibilities.
-- You'll figure it out.
-- You take criticism really well! I could never take the kind of bashing you are getting when I was 22. I'm impressed you are trying to communicate with grace and honesty here.
-- Don't take it all too much to heart. These people don't know you. And I guarantee you that they would never be so aggressive and nasty in person; the internet seems to bring out a really shitty side of people, in which everything becomes entertainment, you know?
-- That said, there is a lot of good advice in those frustrated, angry, dismissive comments. You are indeed not yet aware of what you can and can't control, and what are and are not your responsibilities.
-- You'll figure it out.
142
@136
I'm super impressed you even talked to him after he blew you off on your birthday. Presumably you got the fuck out right after he blamed you for being disappointed that your boyfriend dodged you on your birthday?
I'm super impressed you even talked to him after he blew you off on your birthday. Presumably you got the fuck out right after he blamed you for being disappointed that your boyfriend dodged you on your birthday?
143
I've never read so much about nothing. I swear this was an episode of 90210 when I was 14 or did I read it in a copy of Young Hustler.............
147
Clearly the consensus is that BPOAT was stupid -- to say nothing of inconsiderate and cruel -- when he called that girl who stripped for him 'sluttish' and therefore richly deserves to be in the soap-opera drama 'Stella and Stanley (and Backup Guy BPOAT)'.
And I can only agree. Indeed.
Of course this is all because of his lack of experience. There are lots of great nerds who do understand how to treat other people and have relationships (I'd include myself in the bunch). BPOAT, however, clearly still has some growing to do. I hope he will -- I hope he will learn to pay women more real respect (the one who stripped for him was courageous enough to take a serious risk, and yet he didn't respect her for that) and stop wondering about unsolvable situations and drama-drama-drama.
He can have some hope, though. He's only 22. Sooner or later he'll realize the girl he should have paid attention to was the one he considered 'sluttish'. (I made the same mistake once. Then I grew up, and was sorry.)
And I can only agree. Indeed.
Of course this is all because of his lack of experience. There are lots of great nerds who do understand how to treat other people and have relationships (I'd include myself in the bunch). BPOAT, however, clearly still has some growing to do. I hope he will -- I hope he will learn to pay women more real respect (the one who stripped for him was courageous enough to take a serious risk, and yet he didn't respect her for that) and stop wondering about unsolvable situations and drama-drama-drama.
He can have some hope, though. He's only 22. Sooner or later he'll realize the girl he should have paid attention to was the one he considered 'sluttish'. (I made the same mistake once. Then I grew up, and was sorry.)
148
@145, did you see my explanation @131 to your comment @124? I just wanted to make sure that I'd cleared everything up. I felt rather embarrassed about having left that bit in, since I'd intended to edit out most of the talk about myself... And I felt bad about having potentially worried you, so I thought I'd, well, point you back to it, just in case it got buried in the flood of new comments.
149
@142
Well, I'm a big girl, and he presumably was a big boy, and shit happens, so I figured I'd 1) Not assume he could read minds, and express my disappointment with his behavior explicitly (no dropping hints or passive aggressive BS) 2) Offer him a chance to explain himself and/or apologize. He apparently didn't really have a very good excuse. But it's just a birthday, happens every year, blah blah. I let it slide. But I dumped his ass a day later, after he made some sexist remarks as well as the comments about it being my fault.
That was his third screw up in a week, so THAT's when I went ballistic and told him to get the fuck out of my apartment. ;)
People are going to screw up. I accept that as a fact. You've got to be cool about it. Don't sweat the small stuff and give people the benefit of the doubt. Decide if their screw ups are ones you can deal with in the long term. If not, GTFO and don't look back. In my case, his actions and expressed opinions really showed me his underlying attitudes that were completely fucking unacceptable to me.
This even applies to you. Whats-her-face's behavior shows you that she's kinda unstable, confused, has boundary issues, and is more than a bit unreliable. If you're cool with that, then great. Keep hanging out with her. If you think that'll drive you 'round the bend later, then choose not to put up with it. Simple! :)
Well, I'm a big girl, and he presumably was a big boy, and shit happens, so I figured I'd 1) Not assume he could read minds, and express my disappointment with his behavior explicitly (no dropping hints or passive aggressive BS) 2) Offer him a chance to explain himself and/or apologize. He apparently didn't really have a very good excuse. But it's just a birthday, happens every year, blah blah. I let it slide. But I dumped his ass a day later, after he made some sexist remarks as well as the comments about it being my fault.
That was his third screw up in a week, so THAT's when I went ballistic and told him to get the fuck out of my apartment. ;)
People are going to screw up. I accept that as a fact. You've got to be cool about it. Don't sweat the small stuff and give people the benefit of the doubt. Decide if their screw ups are ones you can deal with in the long term. If not, GTFO and don't look back. In my case, his actions and expressed opinions really showed me his underlying attitudes that were completely fucking unacceptable to me.
This even applies to you. Whats-her-face's behavior shows you that she's kinda unstable, confused, has boundary issues, and is more than a bit unreliable. If you're cool with that, then great. Keep hanging out with her. If you think that'll drive you 'round the bend later, then choose not to put up with it. Simple! :)
150
@144 I mean...yes. That's always what was going to happen.
Cut the girl out of your life and move on.
Cut the girl out of your life and move on.
151
@142 Here's part of your problem. @136 said she "briefly dated" a guy, and you assume "boyfriend". It was a dick move for him to ditch her on her birthday without so much as a phone call or text, but 1) it's unlikely they were anything more official than "just dating", and 2) it's quite possible he had no idea it was even her birthday. Still, he shouldn't have ditched her without a call.
152
@151 Yeah, I didn't mean boyfriend, but it's not like I can edit comments. I realized my mistake later.
@150 Yup, I knew it would happen, too.
@149 I already know I am going to cut her out of my life. It's just the doing it that will be hard. I am ready to move on, just one last step.
@150 Yup, I knew it would happen, too.
@149 I already know I am going to cut her out of my life. It's just the doing it that will be hard. I am ready to move on, just one last step.
153
Pro-tip for all the Nice Guys® out there: just because you are told you are a nice guy doesn't make it true. If you are seriously creeping a lady out, she would much, much rather say "oh you're so nice, I just don't think of you that way!" than "You are creepy and I'm afraid you will stalk me." Why would she lie to you? Because 1) she doesn't want to end up dead in a ditch, and 2) because women are trained from a very young age to be nice and not to hurt anyone's feelings. So keep that in mind.
154
@151 That's correct. We were just dating. And yes, he also knew it was my birthday. We had dinner plans.
But there was no point crying in my drink over some asshat that I'd only been seeing for a month, so my dude friend came over, made me some food, and we drank vanilla rum and killed us some Nazis on the 360. I also baked and decorated a Portal-themed birthday cake for myself.
@ 152 No biggie. I knew what you meant. Besides, people do that all the time. As a single female, it's nigh on impossible to just casually date a dude without everyone waiting around with baited breath to see if he'll be your "boyfriend". *eyerolly* Because of course, every single female needs to be in a relationship, or trying to get into one.
But there was no point crying in my drink over some asshat that I'd only been seeing for a month, so my dude friend came over, made me some food, and we drank vanilla rum and killed us some Nazis on the 360. I also baked and decorated a Portal-themed birthday cake for myself.
@ 152 No biggie. I knew what you meant. Besides, people do that all the time. As a single female, it's nigh on impossible to just casually date a dude without everyone waiting around with baited breath to see if he'll be your "boyfriend". *eyerolly* Because of course, every single female needs to be in a relationship, or trying to get into one.
155
"To everyone else who took up an issue with me rejecting a sexual advance, we still got naked and did other 'sexytime' (as someone else put it) things, just no intercourse. I didn't run to the hills as soon as the shirt and pants came off. I don't think I'm afraid of women, but I am taking everything into consideration."
The fact that you fooled around with her at the time doesn't make calling her slutty better!
The fact that you fooled around with her at the time doesn't make calling her slutty better!
156
Here's another hint:
I am currently in the most awesomest relationship evar with a guy that I was platonic friends with for yeeeeaaars before we hooked up. And even when we hooked up the first time, I was pretty up front about letting him know I didn't want a boyfriend at the time.
Things changed, feelings changed, it all worked out great. If things ever go south, it will probably mean the end of us being friends, but the risk has been worth it for all the awesome relationshippy stuff that's taken it's place. Even apart from that, most of the men I have gone to bed with, even as a strict FWB setup, were my friends first. And even though I'm not sleeping with those men anymore, I still have some valued friendships with them.
And I, too, have used the phrase 'I don't want to ruin the friendship' when a guy friend hit on me.
"I don't want to ruin the friendship." Translation: "I like you, but I am not attracted to you, probably for things you have no control over. And I don't want to hurt your feelings by saying that I don't find you attractive, so I will tell you a pleasant white lie instead, because even though I value your company and friendship, I do NOT want to fuck you."
So if you were put in the Friend Zone, MrPhonz, it's not that she lost all attraction for you when you became friends - you never had a chance to begin with. Accept that a woman can enjoy your company, find you amusing, charming and even good looking... and still not want to fuck you or date you. It's not a failure on your part; nor a character flaw on hers. It's just the way life is, and the way happy platonic friendships work between hetero men and women. You can't expect sex in return for offering friendship or doing favors for someone. You get friendship in return for offering friendship, and if you expect that favors will eventually add up to sex, you might as well decide to visit a few upstanding sex workers instead.
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I am currently in the most awesomest relationship evar with a guy that I was platonic friends with for yeeeeaaars before we hooked up. And even when we hooked up the first time, I was pretty up front about letting him know I didn't want a boyfriend at the time.
Things changed, feelings changed, it all worked out great. If things ever go south, it will probably mean the end of us being friends, but the risk has been worth it for all the awesome relationshippy stuff that's taken it's place. Even apart from that, most of the men I have gone to bed with, even as a strict FWB setup, were my friends first. And even though I'm not sleeping with those men anymore, I still have some valued friendships with them.
And I, too, have used the phrase 'I don't want to ruin the friendship' when a guy friend hit on me.
"I don't want to ruin the friendship." Translation: "I like you, but I am not attracted to you, probably for things you have no control over. And I don't want to hurt your feelings by saying that I don't find you attractive, so I will tell you a pleasant white lie instead, because even though I value your company and friendship, I do NOT want to fuck you."
So if you were put in the Friend Zone, MrPhonz, it's not that she lost all attraction for you when you became friends - you never had a chance to begin with. Accept that a woman can enjoy your company, find you amusing, charming and even good looking... and still not want to fuck you or date you. It's not a failure on your part; nor a character flaw on hers. It's just the way life is, and the way happy platonic friendships work between hetero men and women. You can't expect sex in return for offering friendship or doing favors for someone. You get friendship in return for offering friendship, and if you expect that favors will eventually add up to sex, you might as well decide to visit a few upstanding sex workers instead.
157
btw, here is Garfunkel and Oates singing what THE GIRL thinks about those situations when the guy bemoans being in the "Friend Zone":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilOx2Jmm1…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilOx2Jmm1…
158
@152: Well, as someone who's had to cut someone close out of my life like that (different circumstances, but still), trust me. It seems hard now, but a year from now somebody will mention Stella and you'll realize you hadn't even thought about her in six months.
159
Dude is a narcissist with a madonna/whore complex and verbal diarrhoea. I'd suggest some self-editing, and not just in what he writes - if he's going to be this introspective, he should at least try to do it critically. If all this "making out" and "getting to second base" isn't getting him anywhere relationship-wise, he should maybe look to find the problem in the common factor in his experiences with all these girls: himself.
160
As I may echo some of all this commentary: I never had any success with women until I stopped looking for them. The strategy is much like earning the trust of a strange cat; you have to try your hardest not to give it the slightest attention; having been convinced of your benign intentions, you may find the cat sitting in your lap, of its own accord, some time thereafter.
161
This was the longest, most ridiculous letter i have ever read. I feel like i'm back in highschool...
162
I sprained my finger trying to scroll through all that (since I sure as shit wasn't going to actually read it). I demand recompense, on my own behalf and on behalf of poor Dan who, based on his answers, actually might have wasted a few precious hours of his very valuable time reading it all.
163
So, mrphonz, Stella's gone back to Stanley (has Blanche been taken in by the men with butterfly nets yet?), and you realize that you've wasted a lot of time and energy on this whole situation. Here's something you should consider if this situation - please, God, no - ever arises again: Stella was about to leave for a year on study abroad. Would you have been willing to wait for this girl for a year? Or did you coincidentally sign up for the same program as she did? If you did decide to wait for her, would you have been happy? Or would you look at all the facebook pictures of her going to bars with her new study abroad friends, get completely jealous, fly out to wherever she was, and characterize all her new friends as total assholes who didn't appreciate her like you did? If you'd just left the whole thing alone, the Stanley - Stella relationship would have imploded on its own by Thanksgiving, and may still do so, 90% chance. Of course, then Stella would have probably begun dating Rafaelle Sollecito's little brother, leaving you out in the cold.
Also, please look up the definition of "detail." If you say, "#1, Stella is missing the top joint of her left index finger," that's a detail. So if later on, you say, "At the convention, I saw Stanley making out with a girl dressed as Sailor Moon. I only saw her from behind, but know if wasn't Stella - see #1," well, that would make sense. An entire paragraph of social interaction, with the addition of new players, is not a "detail."
Also, please look up the definition of "detail." If you say, "#1, Stella is missing the top joint of her left index finger," that's a detail. So if later on, you say, "At the convention, I saw Stanley making out with a girl dressed as Sailor Moon. I only saw her from behind, but know if wasn't Stella - see #1," well, that would make sense. An entire paragraph of social interaction, with the addition of new players, is not a "detail."
165
@43: If you think being naked with a woman you've barely met is "sluttish" behavior, what the hell were you doing naked with a woman in the first place? Whore-baiting?
166
Funniest part of all this is if he punched Stanley in the face, told that manipulative POS Stella to kiss his ass, and went out and fucked that girl who stripped for him, that manipulative POS Stella would probably want to have sex with him.
In short, if he did what he should, he would get laid.
Do the right thing, son! Punch assholes in the face, tell a manipulative POS to kiss your ass, and go fuck other women.
In short, if he did what he should, he would get laid.
Do the right thing, son! Punch assholes in the face, tell a manipulative POS to kiss your ass, and go fuck other women.
167
Ms Alemana @133 - It seems that the S word is more accurately compared to the F word than to the N word. I can't be sure, as I've never used the word in my life. A question: what is your take on the recent invention "slore"? I would not use it as part of serious criticism, but occasionally in a light-hearted or sarcastic post, especially given the origin of the term, it seems apposite.
168
Dear LW,
I got as far into your drivel as I could go and stopped around the part where you called that poor girl's behavior "Sluttish." Until you get over this draconian view of female sexuality I hope you never see another vagina. Seriously. Women in our society have a hard enough time getting over the stigma against their sexuality- they don't need another prudish immature moron to ignorantly look down on them.
Grow up. Seriously. Grow the fuck up. Until then you don't deserve sex with anyone but your digits.
I got as far into your drivel as I could go and stopped around the part where you called that poor girl's behavior "Sluttish." Until you get over this draconian view of female sexuality I hope you never see another vagina. Seriously. Women in our society have a hard enough time getting over the stigma against their sexuality- they don't need another prudish immature moron to ignorantly look down on them.
Grow up. Seriously. Grow the fuck up. Until then you don't deserve sex with anyone but your digits.
169
Oh, look! It's a Nice Guy(tm)!
Also, when someone feels the need to recount every. Single. Detail. Of. The. Story, it's called "getting high on the story". The difference between the person who likes the drama and the person who doesn't is that one talks about it with much hand wringing ad nauseum, and the other walks away. Or it's also possible that the difference between the one who recounts the story and the one who walks away is that one is 22 while the other is 32. I will say that this is pretty standard-issue behavior for the under 25 set.
Also, when someone feels the need to recount every. Single. Detail. Of. The. Story, it's called "getting high on the story". The difference between the person who likes the drama and the person who doesn't is that one talks about it with much hand wringing ad nauseum, and the other walks away. Or it's also possible that the difference between the one who recounts the story and the one who walks away is that one is 22 while the other is 32. I will say that this is pretty standard-issue behavior for the under 25 set.
170
Yeah, my money was on anime con, too.
So, why is it that nerds/geeks tend towards this kind of drama? Actually I know plenty of non-nerds/geeks who get there too, but I think geeks have an easier time falling into it because they're so familiar with the patterns of drama in their fiction that they instinctively (or, sometimes, intentionally) fall into those roles. Some geeks are also pretty used to reaching for the unattainable, too, e.g. the fictional character.
I say this as a geek and a regular anime con attendee. There's a pretty vast scale of fandom versus societal functionality.
So, why is it that nerds/geeks tend towards this kind of drama? Actually I know plenty of non-nerds/geeks who get there too, but I think geeks have an easier time falling into it because they're so familiar with the patterns of drama in their fiction that they instinctively (or, sometimes, intentionally) fall into those roles. Some geeks are also pretty used to reaching for the unattainable, too, e.g. the fictional character.
I say this as a geek and a regular anime con attendee. There's a pretty vast scale of fandom versus societal functionality.
171
@151, 154: Is there really a huge difference between "the person(s) I am dating" and "my boyfriend(s)?"
In my 32 years, I've never heard of such a thing.
In my 32 years, I've never heard of such a thing.
172
I feel sorry for the letter writers whose letters were not published and this was.
And for the 7 minutes I'll never get back.
And for the 7 minutes I'll never get back.
173
Thoughts that passed through my head, because you KNOW the LW is going to read every single comment while he cries and listens to the 2011 equivalent of Dashboard Confessional. And I'm going to letter than instead of number them just to piss of the LW.
A. Get an editor... "he smashed his cell phone against a stone wall." Did you think we needed clarification that it wasn't a rotary phone smashed on a brick wall? I was hoping it was one of those old-timey phones with two bells, those are cool.
B. Are you the kind of guy who asks a girl to sign a consent form before you touch her breasts? That overly PC shit is not attractive. Grow some balls and enjoy the naked girl in front of you.
C. I really don't like it when the LW leaves soooo many details that anyone who would know this person would know exactly who it is. Yes, I realize he thinks this girl will read the letter and love him forever, that's why it's so long-winded, he doesn't want to leave out anything or have her misunderstand. I swear that is solely why it is so long. But it's embarassing to the others who didn't choose to have their shit aired in a public forum.
A. Get an editor... "he smashed his cell phone against a stone wall." Did you think we needed clarification that it wasn't a rotary phone smashed on a brick wall? I was hoping it was one of those old-timey phones with two bells, those are cool.
B. Are you the kind of guy who asks a girl to sign a consent form before you touch her breasts? That overly PC shit is not attractive. Grow some balls and enjoy the naked girl in front of you.
C. I really don't like it when the LW leaves soooo many details that anyone who would know this person would know exactly who it is. Yes, I realize he thinks this girl will read the letter and love him forever, that's why it's so long-winded, he doesn't want to leave out anything or have her misunderstand. I swear that is solely why it is so long. But it's embarassing to the others who didn't choose to have their shit aired in a public forum.
174
@ 86 :
Poser.
"Anime? Comic book? Star Trek? Furry? I can't solve all your problems until I know what kind of geek I'm dealing with."
Obviously, you'd need to know, for example, which series of Star Trek, or whether you are talking superheroes or edgy graphic novels, or what precise style of anime. How could you possible express any opinion on anything else until THAT gets cleared up?
Poser.
"Anime? Comic book? Star Trek? Furry? I can't solve all your problems until I know what kind of geek I'm dealing with."
Obviously, you'd need to know, for example, which series of Star Trek, or whether you are talking superheroes or edgy graphic novels, or what precise style of anime. How could you possible express any opinion on anything else until THAT gets cleared up?
175
Sure, the letter's long, boring, annoying. But on the bright side it was like a better version of Tao Lin's writing.
176
You don't actually need to put a comma after a question mark with quotation marks. The question mark does double-duty, doing the comma's job as well as its own.
177
It's like I'm reading /r9k/. Seriously -- these shitty "nice guys" who slut shame women and then complain they can't get laid piss me off so much fucking more than straight out assholes. GEE, MAYBE IT'S BECAUSE YOU DEMONIZE THE WOMEN WHO ACTUALLY WANT TO SLEEP WITH YOU? I'd rather be with someone who fucking beats me than one of these ass wipes.
Okay, maybe that's an exaggeration, but I REALLY hate this type of douchebag. It is unequivocally the worst type of douchebag.
Okay, maybe that's an exaggeration, but I REALLY hate this type of douchebag. It is unequivocally the worst type of douchebag.
178
@171 “Dating” today is what we called “screwing” back in the seventies. It’s not what our parents called “going steady” back in the fifties. It’s a back-formation from internet “dating” sites. If I meet someone on an internet dating site and have sex with them a few times over the course of a couple of weeks before realizing that this isn’t going to go anyhwere, I will later refer to “this guy/woman I was dating for a little while,” not “an old boy/girlfriend.”
179
@25 Enigma you're spot on. I was going to say the same thing. Rejecting the "slut" who's genuinely interested while longing for the "perfect" girl who needs rescue from the evil boyfriend? Oh how well this describes the boys I knew in college. Virgin/whore central this is.
180
Total issues with women what with the "sluttish" comment and the total fixation on a drama queen. Get those cleared up before proceeding with future relationships, for the sake of anyone in the future who gets involved with you.
If you don't, I guarantee you you'll wind up like the one 50 male renter I had (whom I immediately evicted) who was screaming at me, for no apparent reason, that I was NOT his mother at 1am.
Honestly.
If you don't, I guarantee you you'll wind up like the one 50 male renter I had (whom I immediately evicted) who was screaming at me, for no apparent reason, that I was NOT his mother at 1am.
Honestly.
181
Do you have any women friends you're not attracted to? It would behoove you to get to know some women as fellow human beings, rather than confounding objects of your desire.
It's good that you've got the balls to show up in here, but I'm not convinced you're really getting the gist of what everyone's saying. It'd probably be a good idea for you to lay off of dating for a while, and work on figuring out why you seem to want so much drama in your life.
It's good that you've got the balls to show up in here, but I'm not convinced you're really getting the gist of what everyone's saying. It'd probably be a good idea for you to lay off of dating for a while, and work on figuring out why you seem to want so much drama in your life.
182
Cool story, bro.
I find it HILARIOUS when I read these desperate letters from 21ish guys who haven't been laid. I was a woman your age, cute but quirky, and I didn't get laid until I was almost 23. Why? I WAS NOT READY FOR ADULT PEOPLE SEX YET, among other things. So I made out a lot and pined after dudes and chicks and wondered WHYYYY I didn't have a boyfriend sometimes, but I didn't make up narratives about what a special great girl I was and why can't X guy seeeee it or think it was appropriate to "blame someone for being easily manipulated. I may have not been ready for a relationship yet, but even though I didn't know it, I also didn't think I was entitled to one because I thought I was a good catch. You seem to think you deserve one. You do not. Keep making out with girls, learn how to finger a girl without bashing your digits full tilt into her vagina (FOR GOD'S SAKE, LEARN THAT BEFORE YOU ARE 30, at the VERY latest), and just be friends with some girls so you can see them as people and not the Unknowable Other. KEE-rist.
I find it HILARIOUS when I read these desperate letters from 21ish guys who haven't been laid. I was a woman your age, cute but quirky, and I didn't get laid until I was almost 23. Why? I WAS NOT READY FOR ADULT PEOPLE SEX YET, among other things. So I made out a lot and pined after dudes and chicks and wondered WHYYYY I didn't have a boyfriend sometimes, but I didn't make up narratives about what a special great girl I was and why can't X guy seeeee it or think it was appropriate to "blame someone for being easily manipulated. I may have not been ready for a relationship yet, but even though I didn't know it, I also didn't think I was entitled to one because I thought I was a good catch. You seem to think you deserve one. You do not. Keep making out with girls, learn how to finger a girl without bashing your digits full tilt into her vagina (FOR GOD'S SAKE, LEARN THAT BEFORE YOU ARE 30, at the VERY latest), and just be friends with some girls so you can see them as people and not the Unknowable Other. KEE-rist.
183
Poor guy. It's tough to be young. In a few years he'll look back on this and realize how stupid it all was. But when you're caught up in the middle of it and don;t know any better, it seems like the most important thing in the world (well worth 2600 words to a sex-advice columnist).
184
@mrphonz
I used to cosplay as a teen. I'm telling you, you gotta hang out with other people. I can tell from the way you write, you're pretty insulated in your group. You write in a way that tells me you pretty much only have contact with other geeks. Numbering everything in your letter...writing a book, etc.
You gotta branch out. What else are you interested in? Hang out with those people, too. You know you can like anime without having to hang out with people who's only interest in anime? Just because you like basketball doesn't mean you gotta hang out with your team members all the time.
You're 22, you gotta breathe some fresh air. And srsly, you let her stay in a hotel room while you slept elsewhere? You know how dramatic cons are. You should have seen that coming a mile a way. Next time, go dance with cute girls at the dance. Also, you're 22. You can afford a hotel room with 4 people instead of 14. Work out this year, and next year go as Squall or Kenshin, or some other costume you can show your abs off in. An Alpha character, not random shinegami # 4. You gotta find a way to get rid of that weird tone you have. shake it up!
この少女は頭がおかしい。ほかの知らない人と友達を作ってください。日本で英語の教師になればほうがいいでしょう？
I used to cosplay as a teen. I'm telling you, you gotta hang out with other people. I can tell from the way you write, you're pretty insulated in your group. You write in a way that tells me you pretty much only have contact with other geeks. Numbering everything in your letter...writing a book, etc.
You gotta branch out. What else are you interested in? Hang out with those people, too. You know you can like anime without having to hang out with people who's only interest in anime? Just because you like basketball doesn't mean you gotta hang out with your team members all the time.
You're 22, you gotta breathe some fresh air. And srsly, you let her stay in a hotel room while you slept elsewhere? You know how dramatic cons are. You should have seen that coming a mile a way. Next time, go dance with cute girls at the dance. Also, you're 22. You can afford a hotel room with 4 people instead of 14. Work out this year, and next year go as Squall or Kenshin, or some other costume you can show your abs off in. An Alpha character, not random shinegami # 4. You gotta find a way to get rid of that weird tone you have. shake it up!
この少女は頭がおかしい。ほかの知らない人と友達を作ってください。日本で英語の教師になればほうがいいでしょう？
186
MrPhonz,
You still have a chance to become a happy, healthy person who has sex with and surrounds himself with happy, healthy people if you want. Set a boundary for yourself of the level of other people's drama you will accept. A friends mother dies in a car crash or attacked by rabid pitbulls with chainsaw paws? That's a good time to be a supportive shoulder and ear. A friend just wants to bitch to you about how dumb her boyfriend is? Suggest she tell it to her girlfriends. If relationship drama is always clouding a girl like dust around PigPen from Peanuts, I'm going to make a leap and suggest that the problem isn't solely the assholes she dates.
Stand up for yourself, quit acting like a douche, and goddamit, man up. No one wants to be in a relationship with a little boy.*
* Well, there are those who do, but generally they're not the relationship types, either, and they're often in and out of prison.
You still have a chance to become a happy, healthy person who has sex with and surrounds himself with happy, healthy people if you want. Set a boundary for yourself of the level of other people's drama you will accept. A friends mother dies in a car crash or attacked by rabid pitbulls with chainsaw paws? That's a good time to be a supportive shoulder and ear. A friend just wants to bitch to you about how dumb her boyfriend is? Suggest she tell it to her girlfriends. If relationship drama is always clouding a girl like dust around PigPen from Peanuts, I'm going to make a leap and suggest that the problem isn't solely the assholes she dates.
Stand up for yourself, quit acting like a douche, and goddamit, man up. No one wants to be in a relationship with a little boy.*
* Well, there are those who do, but generally they're not the relationship types, either, and they're often in and out of prison.
187
Stella knows she's jerking you around, and the fact that you just keep coming back for more means she can't respect you either. You don't have to be a asshole, but you need to stop being a doormat.
188
This is the classic Nice Guy (TM) scenario. I wish I could say I was different, but at 18, I went through the same thing. Then at 19, I found myself as the "Asshole" who got the girl. Which simply meant I talked to (a couple) girls, and some of them liked me, and there were "Nice Guys" in the background waiting their turn.
The whole post reeks of insecurity and misogyny. It's almost a biological response from the "non-alpha" type (and I know, evolutionary biology is quack science, etc., etc., but WHY do so many guys go through this same process?)
I certainly can relate, because I was the "Nice Guy" (TM"). Not very nice, in retrospect, more like angry, depressed, and confused. Now I'm married with three kids, one of them a daughter who is very social. Let's hope she steers clear from the Nice Guys (TM).
The whole post reeks of insecurity and misogyny. It's almost a biological response from the "non-alpha" type (and I know, evolutionary biology is quack science, etc., etc., but WHY do so many guys go through this same process?)
I certainly can relate, because I was the "Nice Guy" (TM"). Not very nice, in retrospect, more like angry, depressed, and confused. Now I'm married with three kids, one of them a daughter who is very social. Let's hope she steers clear from the Nice Guys (TM).
190
It took 184 comments for Caralain to give you the one piece of advice I have to share.
Dude. What you just experienced is called CON DRAMA. And there is a surefire cure for it.
Here's what happens:
1) A group of congoers in their teens/early twenties say, "Hey guys, we all wanna go to Minnabakacon but we're all broke as fuck! But HEY, if we just each chip in the measly $30 we can scrape together, then like 14 of us can TOTALLY afford a hotel room!"
2) Fourteen dramatic, overemotional and underexperienced young people stay in a hotel room.
3) DRAMA
I know you're gonna point out, MrPhonz, that you stayed with relatives, but sorry, that doesn't matter. You chose to associate with people putting themselves in this circumstance.
I speak from experience. Long ago I went to anime cons with up to 12 people in my room. Friends of mine would get the suite and stuff 18 people in it, with one in the tub. Not shitting you.
IT IS NOT WORTH IT.
It is not worth the financial savings. The emotional stress and strain is NOT WORTH IT. It is not worth partaking of this penny-pinching practice, it is not worth associating with people who partake of it. It's been many years since I used to do that and I would never, ever consider it, not for any reason.
So here's what you're going to do:
1) Become selective about the cons you go to and SAVE UP MONEY for them. You're twenty-two, mow a bunch of lawns, for chrissakes, whatever it takes.
2) Do not stay with relatives and commute in; do not stay with your crazy broke-ass friends. Get a hotel room in the con hotel or right next to the convention center, and select ONLY your most highly vetted and financially stable peers to join you. A maximum of 3 people so that everyone gets half a bed, and DO NOT EVER include anyone in the room who will inspire sexual tension in you.
3) The MOMENT your friends in the Tokyo-rush-hour-subway-car hotel room start to say even ONE thing about their overall relationships or weekend conflicts, tell them: "Hey, sorry to hear that things suck for you guys. Stuff like this led me to plan ahead and get a nice chill room so I could just enjoy the con and not dwell on all that shit. You should think about that for next year."
Then RUN.
And go ACTUALLY ENJOY THE CON.
More...
Dude. What you just experienced is called CON DRAMA. And there is a surefire cure for it.
Here's what happens:
1) A group of congoers in their teens/early twenties say, "Hey guys, we all wanna go to Minnabakacon but we're all broke as fuck! But HEY, if we just each chip in the measly $30 we can scrape together, then like 14 of us can TOTALLY afford a hotel room!"
2) Fourteen dramatic, overemotional and underexperienced young people stay in a hotel room.
3) DRAMA
I know you're gonna point out, MrPhonz, that you stayed with relatives, but sorry, that doesn't matter. You chose to associate with people putting themselves in this circumstance.
I speak from experience. Long ago I went to anime cons with up to 12 people in my room. Friends of mine would get the suite and stuff 18 people in it, with one in the tub. Not shitting you.
IT IS NOT WORTH IT.
It is not worth the financial savings. The emotional stress and strain is NOT WORTH IT. It is not worth partaking of this penny-pinching practice, it is not worth associating with people who partake of it. It's been many years since I used to do that and I would never, ever consider it, not for any reason.
So here's what you're going to do:
1) Become selective about the cons you go to and SAVE UP MONEY for them. You're twenty-two, mow a bunch of lawns, for chrissakes, whatever it takes.
2) Do not stay with relatives and commute in; do not stay with your crazy broke-ass friends. Get a hotel room in the con hotel or right next to the convention center, and select ONLY your most highly vetted and financially stable peers to join you. A maximum of 3 people so that everyone gets half a bed, and DO NOT EVER include anyone in the room who will inspire sexual tension in you.
3) The MOMENT your friends in the Tokyo-rush-hour-subway-car hotel room start to say even ONE thing about their overall relationships or weekend conflicts, tell them: "Hey, sorry to hear that things suck for you guys. Stuff like this led me to plan ahead and get a nice chill room so I could just enjoy the con and not dwell on all that shit. You should think about that for next year."
Then RUN.
And go ACTUALLY ENJOY THE CON.
192
@184: Not that I was trying to be critical. I', honestly just curious about where and for how long you studied Japanese, since I don't meet many others who speak it.
And in front of 「がいいと思います」in my post, there should be a 「の方」. Sorry.
さあ、私なら、日本語で話したら急に恥ずかしくなってきて間違えが増える時もありますが、何度あっても恥ずかしくなります・・・申し訳ありません。
And in front of 「がいいと思います」in my post, there should be a 「の方」. Sorry.
さあ、私なら、日本語で話したら急に恥ずかしくなってきて間違えが増える時もありますが、何度あっても恥ずかしくなります・・・申し訳ありません。
193
Oh my, I think all those involved in this letter need to DTMFA, and the author should probably deal with the fact that he has issues with women before he deals with more dating.
194
@43: "3. Thank you everyone for the bluntness. It's helping clear my mind."
Don't hover around trainwrecks looking for scraps. It's creepy. And the sooner that you come to terms with you not always being the "nice guy", the better.
@49: "Real nerds don't go for cheerleaders."
Yeah, there are plenty of closet-jocks that are just as shallow and not as smart as their glasses and thin/thick frames imply.
@76: "3. I guess I pursued it because I didn't want to be the guy that makes out with a girl then just forgets about her when it didn't go perfectly"
Making out with a girl is no indication that you have intentions of marriage, you know.
@132: "MrPhonz, you are going to have to stop being "advice guy" in your set of friends. You like it when girls come to you with their troubles and you can help "solve" the problems or "give advice". All you're doing is self-indulgent wankery, and you'll discover that in time."
Yeah, but he also gets the emotional entanglement this way, so he may not drop it.
@178: " “Dating” today is what we called “screwing” back in the seventies. It’s not what our parents called “going steady” back in the fifties. It’s a back-formation from internet “dating” sites."
Oh bullshit. Fucking and dating is the same as it ever was. The only difference? Much less lying about it in public.
@187: "Nice guys" aren't doormats, no matter what they tell you. They know exactly what they're getting themselves into, and entangle themselves into the problems. They are not naifs being preyed upon, and often prey more upon the emotionally vulnerable than otherwise.
Don't hover around trainwrecks looking for scraps. It's creepy. And the sooner that you come to terms with you not always being the "nice guy", the better.
@49: "Real nerds don't go for cheerleaders."
Yeah, there are plenty of closet-jocks that are just as shallow and not as smart as their glasses and thin/thick frames imply.
@76: "3. I guess I pursued it because I didn't want to be the guy that makes out with a girl then just forgets about her when it didn't go perfectly"
Making out with a girl is no indication that you have intentions of marriage, you know.
@132: "MrPhonz, you are going to have to stop being "advice guy" in your set of friends. You like it when girls come to you with their troubles and you can help "solve" the problems or "give advice". All you're doing is self-indulgent wankery, and you'll discover that in time."
Yeah, but he also gets the emotional entanglement this way, so he may not drop it.
@178: " “Dating” today is what we called “screwing” back in the seventies. It’s not what our parents called “going steady” back in the fifties. It’s a back-formation from internet “dating” sites."
Oh bullshit. Fucking and dating is the same as it ever was. The only difference? Much less lying about it in public.
@187: "Nice guys" aren't doormats, no matter what they tell you. They know exactly what they're getting themselves into, and entangle themselves into the problems. They are not naifs being preyed upon, and often prey more upon the emotionally vulnerable than otherwise.
195
Oh boy, this letter (well, what I read) reminds me of my awful attempts at dating in my 20s. Whoo eeeee, it was bad! My meager advice: Hang in there mrphonz and, when people want to do nice things for you, let them! Good luck.
196
@194 “Oh bullshit. Fucking and dating is the same as it ever was.” Ok, so why was someone confused when someone else distinguished between a boyfriend and someone she’d dated? If the sameness/difference between the two is so obvious, then the question wouldn’t have come up.
I wasn’t talking about behaviours. I was talking about the words we use to describe behaviours. Behaviour might not change, but it’s been a while since I’ve heard someone talking about going steady with someone.
I wasn’t talking about behaviours. I was talking about the words we use to describe behaviours. Behaviour might not change, but it’s been a while since I’ve heard someone talking about going steady with someone.
197
Mr Phonz, just an informational note about OCD: it's not always something you're born with, or as you put it, a developmental disorder. People with OCD are also outgoing and enjoy partying. But they may also feel great anxiety when things they care about are beyond their control, and they may do things like making superfluous numbered lists, documenting every tiny detail as if it's essential, and staying up till all hours trying to hash out explanations that make sense, even though it's both inappropriate and impossible. They also might become overly invested in other people and their reactions and behaviors. OCD is frequently comorbid with depression, and could be mistaken for ADD when compulsions distract from other tasks that need doing.
That said, you and Stella are not in a relationship. She made out with you, and you have a crush on her, but she's still tangled up with Stanley, and she's also leaving the country soon. Just leave her alone, period. Find someone else to date--for fun, and not for rescuing or judging.
That said, you and Stella are not in a relationship. She made out with you, and you have a crush on her, but she's still tangled up with Stanley, and she's also leaving the country soon. Just leave her alone, period. Find someone else to date--for fun, and not for rescuing or judging.
198
@196: "I wasn’t talking about behaviours. I was talking about the words we use to describe behaviours. Behaviour might not change, but it’s been a while since I’ve heard someone talking about going steady with someone."
Ok, I see what you're saying now. The patterns haven't changed, but the descriptors shifted.
Ok, I see what you're saying now. The patterns haven't changed, but the descriptors shifted.
199
Wow, this kid seems to have a serious case of the late-night "Woe-is-Me's". Seems like he needs a hug and a new set of 20-sided dice (sorry, lw, i couldn't resist).
Nobody here ever got their reason eclisped by drama and the unbelievable tragedy of their situation? Especially when only being 22? I call bullshit on that.
Thanks for posting this, Dan. I'm sorry you get so many long letters from irrationally lamenting folk. You do seem reasonable and kind (in your delightfully bastardly way). Also nice work smaking the kid around. Maybe he'll feel tough and brave now that he hath emerged, both broken and bruise-ed, from deep within the fabled gauntlet that is SLOG.
Nobody here ever got their reason eclisped by drama and the unbelievable tragedy of their situation? Especially when only being 22? I call bullshit on that.
Thanks for posting this, Dan. I'm sorry you get so many long letters from irrationally lamenting folk. You do seem reasonable and kind (in your delightfully bastardly way). Also nice work smaking the kid around. Maybe he'll feel tough and brave now that he hath emerged, both broken and bruise-ed, from deep within the fabled gauntlet that is SLOG.
200
Okay, LW, so I'll admit my first comment was all about the snark. But, this time, I'm giving a serious response in the hopes that you will consider the advice.
You already know (if not intuitively, then because you've received so many comments on it) that you have to treat women as people, too. As others have pointed out, you should try to go out with them – as companions – with no romantic or sexual expectations.
As for the (hoped-for future) sex, I certainly hope you're not using porn for its educational value (which is zero BTW). Terrific online resources are:
http://www.sexinfo101.com for an amazing variety of intercourse (PIV) positions
http://www.clitoris.com which is self-explanatory.
For in-depth reading material, get copies of Lou Paget's How to Give Her Absolute Pleasure (for a man to read) and How to be a Great Lover (for a woman to read). Even though the last one is about male bodies (meant for female readers), it wouldn't hurt for you to buy it ... so that you get to know your own body better and a hint of what kinds of pleasure await you. [And, if you want to be daring, you could give it to a woman with whom you're on the verge of having sex. You could always put sticky notes in the margins of certain pages, suggesting that you'd really, REALLY, like to try THAT out.]
And, then, there's the attitude. Beyond NEVER slut-shaming women who may be interested in getting physical with you, there's also the concept that it would be in your best interest to be open-minded if/when your future partners suggest an activity ... especially if it's only a shade past vanilla on the kink scale.
Oh, yeah, and – as for the hotel room sitch at future cons, save up your cash to rent one for yourself (yeah, a room with only one big bed). Then, should you hook up with someone interesting, you can invite her back to your room. Not necessarily for sex, because it can be really nice to just stay up all night talking with like-minded people. But, if things should lead to sex (and I've always had lots of luck at cons), you won't be having to fight off hordes of people ... or giving them all a topic of gossip the morning after.
More...
You already know (if not intuitively, then because you've received so many comments on it) that you have to treat women as people, too. As others have pointed out, you should try to go out with them – as companions – with no romantic or sexual expectations.
As for the (hoped-for future) sex, I certainly hope you're not using porn for its educational value (which is zero BTW). Terrific online resources are:
http://www.sexinfo101.com for an amazing variety of intercourse (PIV) positions
http://www.clitoris.com which is self-explanatory.
For in-depth reading material, get copies of Lou Paget's How to Give Her Absolute Pleasure (for a man to read) and How to be a Great Lover (for a woman to read). Even though the last one is about male bodies (meant for female readers), it wouldn't hurt for you to buy it ... so that you get to know your own body better and a hint of what kinds of pleasure await you. [And, if you want to be daring, you could give it to a woman with whom you're on the verge of having sex. You could always put sticky notes in the margins of certain pages, suggesting that you'd really, REALLY, like to try THAT out.]
And, then, there's the attitude. Beyond NEVER slut-shaming women who may be interested in getting physical with you, there's also the concept that it would be in your best interest to be open-minded if/when your future partners suggest an activity ... especially if it's only a shade past vanilla on the kink scale.
Oh, yeah, and – as for the hotel room sitch at future cons, save up your cash to rent one for yourself (yeah, a room with only one big bed). Then, should you hook up with someone interesting, you can invite her back to your room. Not necessarily for sex, because it can be really nice to just stay up all night talking with like-minded people. But, if things should lead to sex (and I've always had lots of luck at cons), you won't be having to fight off hordes of people ... or giving them all a topic of gossip the morning after.
201
Pity me, I read the whole letter.
I was overly dramatic about things in my youth, but I got over it a bit earlier in my life than you. In all the writing I did about my trials and tribulation, I never reached the level of literary diarrhoea you have here. But heavens help me, I feel the need to comment anyway... how sad am I?
8. Did you deserve this? One, you don't get what you deserve, you get what you get. Enjoy what comes your way. If one is to suspend disbelief and bring karma into things, then yes, in your reaction to the girl who was willing to strip for you (you may not have put it like that to her, but believe me, women are good at inferring correct or incorrect derision into rejection) you deserve seven meagre years.
Go get a drama-ectomy, turn your back to your role in the amateur Twilight rendition, and when next a girl is willing to remove her clothes for you, treat her respectfully, kindly and with appreciation, and indulge her and yourself. Because I cannot stress enough how much you need it.
I was overly dramatic about things in my youth, but I got over it a bit earlier in my life than you. In all the writing I did about my trials and tribulation, I never reached the level of literary diarrhoea you have here. But heavens help me, I feel the need to comment anyway... how sad am I?
8. Did you deserve this? One, you don't get what you deserve, you get what you get. Enjoy what comes your way. If one is to suspend disbelief and bring karma into things, then yes, in your reaction to the girl who was willing to strip for you (you may not have put it like that to her, but believe me, women are good at inferring correct or incorrect derision into rejection) you deserve seven meagre years.
Go get a drama-ectomy, turn your back to your role in the amateur Twilight rendition, and when next a girl is willing to remove her clothes for you, treat her respectfully, kindly and with appreciation, and indulge her and yourself. Because I cannot stress enough how much you need it.
202
MrPhonz, you said that Stella had gone back to Stanley...
Has she returned to the group yet, complaining about Stanley and searching for the limelight again? If so, now's the time for you to switch her oncoming train onto another line and avoid the train wreck. It's a lot better to observe the carnage than to be in the middle of it.
You'll come out of it shaking your head and saying "Why did I ever put myself in that mess in the first place?"
Has she returned to the group yet, complaining about Stanley and searching for the limelight again? If so, now's the time for you to switch her oncoming train onto another line and avoid the train wreck. It's a lot better to observe the carnage than to be in the middle of it.
You'll come out of it shaking your head and saying "Why did I ever put myself in that mess in the first place?"
203
Dear Dan Savage,
I have a relationship conundrum that's so complex it'd take me over 2,500 words to describe properly. What should I do?
Too Lazy Too Type It All Out
_________________________
Dear TLTTIAO,
RUN!
I have a relationship conundrum that's so complex it'd take me over 2,500 words to describe properly. What should I do?
Too Lazy Too Type It All Out
_________________________
Dear TLTTIAO,
RUN!
204
@ LW Dude...I was in a situation like that once. The whole thing. Even the "what is wrong with me!?! drama." Good news is, the solution is easy.
1. Forget all this bullshit, forget about all these pathetic people.
2. Go find some completely different girl you like the looks of, have a conversation, and ask her out.
3. Repeat as necessary.
Success is guaranteed.
1. Forget all this bullshit, forget about all these pathetic people.
2. Go find some completely different girl you like the looks of, have a conversation, and ask her out.
3. Repeat as necessary.
Success is guaranteed.
206
@ 171, 178
Yeah, the words have probably changed, but the concept is the same. Some guy I went on a few dates with/screwed, had no intention of committing to, but was more than a one night stand.
To me, the word "boyfriend" implies at least some level of commitment, even if it's minor. Like, I'd introduce my Boyfriend to my crazy family and/or mother. I would not introduce Random Dude I'm Seeing/Fucking to my crazy family and/or mother. That's a horror I would only inflict upon someone that I knew really had feelings for me. lol
And I did not meet him on the internet, if that makes any difference to you. ;)
Yeah, the words have probably changed, but the concept is the same. Some guy I went on a few dates with/screwed, had no intention of committing to, but was more than a one night stand.
To me, the word "boyfriend" implies at least some level of commitment, even if it's minor. Like, I'd introduce my Boyfriend to my crazy family and/or mother. I would not introduce Random Dude I'm Seeing/Fucking to my crazy family and/or mother. That's a horror I would only inflict upon someone that I knew really had feelings for me. lol
And I did not meet him on the internet, if that makes any difference to you. ;)
207
The bits I read, including turning down sex when he was finally offered some, and then making excuses about why he did so, remind me a WHOLE lot of a dear old friend, who was a complete drama case until he finally came out of the closet.
208
Oh boy, do I know this story. I was the background friend, rather than the boyfriend. My job was to be in the audience and pity the poor helpless heroine who kept chasing drama and then complaining about it. She was selfish in many ways and a terrible friend.
I complained to other friends about how she was a terrible friend. They told me to quit my yapping and either cut out the drama (end the friendship) or simply accept it. I chose the former.
I complained to other friends about how she was a terrible friend. They told me to quit my yapping and either cut out the drama (end the friendship) or simply accept it. I chose the former.
209
@129
Just so you know, OCD is not a condition that people are born with. Onset often occurs in childhood, but anxiety disorders can develop at all stages of life.
Just so you know, OCD is not a condition that people are born with. Onset often occurs in childhood, but anxiety disorders can develop at all stages of life.
210
@99 It seems to me that this guy suffers from some type of autism, although perhaps not as severe as Asperger's. This would definitely explain the writing style (but not the stupidity).
211
@210, @99, @197 et al - why the need to pathologize what can be perfectly easily explained by the guy just being…a bit of a self-obsessed, immature prick? Attaching syndromes to any behavior that deviates a little from the norm might make you look like you've got all the answers, but all it really does is to give people like MrPhonz an excuse for behaving badly towards women without having to make any changes - after all, if he follows your logic, it's not his fault that he sucks at relationships. It's the autism/OCD.
212
@211,
I don’t follow your logic. Understanding what is making something hard for you is a good start to making progress.
I don’t follow your logic. Understanding what is making something hard for you is a good start to making progress.
213
Sure - but making out that what's making things hard is an unalterable pathology rather than, say, an attitude than needs some readjustment and a bit of growing up surely isn't helpful. Occam's razor - dude's not autistic or OCD. He's just self-obsessed and hasn't grown up yet.
No disrespect meant to those who do really have Asperger's or OCD, of course. But MrPhonz is almost certainly not one of them, and it's irresponsible (not to mention impossible) to "diagnose" him as such on the strength of one navel-gazing letter and a few posts on Slog.
No disrespect meant to those who do really have Asperger's or OCD, of course. But MrPhonz is almost certainly not one of them, and it's irresponsible (not to mention impossible) to "diagnose" him as such on the strength of one navel-gazing letter and a few posts on Slog.
215
Oh boy this letter reminded me of me when I was 22. There's some good advice here and good on you for reading it. One thing, from having been there, @201 is absolutely correct that you don't get what you deserve, you get what you get. If I'm correct in my assessment that you're like I was, then you operate under the delusion that your actions alone can and will dictate the outcome of your human interactions. This isn't how life works, and thinking that it is is why you're obsessing over every little detail of what was said and when and to whom etc.
You need to stop thinking that you are the orchestrator of all the events around you. Take what comes and realize that you really don't have that much to do with it. Shitty things will happen, treat those as opportunities to learn. Awesome things will happen too, but you'll not be able to enjoy them if you spend your whole time trying to remember everything you did to make them happen.
Stop dwelling on the past. You're a virgin because you are, not because you're some romantic fuck up. You didn't get Stella because you didn't, not because you didn't play it the right way. Stop trying to do everything "right" and just do your own thing. If you're not a bad person people will respect that, and some may even like it.
You need to stop thinking that you are the orchestrator of all the events around you. Take what comes and realize that you really don't have that much to do with it. Shitty things will happen, treat those as opportunities to learn. Awesome things will happen too, but you'll not be able to enjoy them if you spend your whole time trying to remember everything you did to make them happen.
Stop dwelling on the past. You're a virgin because you are, not because you're some romantic fuck up. You didn't get Stella because you didn't, not because you didn't play it the right way. Stop trying to do everything "right" and just do your own thing. If you're not a bad person people will respect that, and some may even like it.
216
@213,
Absolutely correct that nobody is in a position to diagnose anyone here; also pretty sure (though not in a position to know for certain) that the LW doesn’t have either ODD or Asperger’s.
However, both of these are spectrum disorders and there is some discussion as to whether Asperger’s is a disorder at all. Someone in one place on a spectrum can benefit from techniques that help people in another place on the spectrum. Whether someone has Asperger’s or not, they are still accountable for their actions. Someone with Asperger’s, or with Asperger-like traits, can remind themselves to pay attention to other people in particular ways or to ask people certain types of questions (are you having fun? would you like to do something else? what would make you happy?) in order to have the kinds of respectful relationships they want to have.
The idea I object to is that using a model of a particular neurological style not only cannot help improve understanding, it somehow makes people unaccountable.
We’re all accountable.
Ok, let’s try this. Neurotypical people, people off the autistic spectrum, bond with others and form in-groups. They are more likely to cheat and bully other people. Does that mean that NTs are not accountable when they mistreat others? Are NTs somehow off the hook for bullying? Not at all. It means that they need to be careful to avoid situations where they might be tempted to gang up on someone.
Absolutely correct that nobody is in a position to diagnose anyone here; also pretty sure (though not in a position to know for certain) that the LW doesn’t have either ODD or Asperger’s.
However, both of these are spectrum disorders and there is some discussion as to whether Asperger’s is a disorder at all. Someone in one place on a spectrum can benefit from techniques that help people in another place on the spectrum. Whether someone has Asperger’s or not, they are still accountable for their actions. Someone with Asperger’s, or with Asperger-like traits, can remind themselves to pay attention to other people in particular ways or to ask people certain types of questions (are you having fun? would you like to do something else? what would make you happy?) in order to have the kinds of respectful relationships they want to have.
The idea I object to is that using a model of a particular neurological style not only cannot help improve understanding, it somehow makes people unaccountable.
We’re all accountable.
Ok, let’s try this. Neurotypical people, people off the autistic spectrum, bond with others and form in-groups. They are more likely to cheat and bully other people. Does that mean that NTs are not accountable when they mistreat others? Are NTs somehow off the hook for bullying? Not at all. It means that they need to be careful to avoid situations where they might be tempted to gang up on someone.
217
This guy is dumb. Consider all the drama you went through karma getting you back for throwing out the girl you disrespected by calling "sluttish." What a jackass.
218
To the LW:
If you want to sleep with women, stop hating them so much first. You're just another garden-variety misogynist asshole, and no women should touch you until you can treat someone who is willing to share her body with you with something resembling respect.
If you want to sleep with women, stop hating them so much first. You're just another garden-variety misogynist asshole, and no women should touch you until you can treat someone who is willing to share her body with you with something resembling respect.
220
How on earth did you make it through that whole damn letter?
Is there some kind of High School Drama Endurance Award, with lots of cash associated. I can't think of any other explanation.
He's a prick, and deserves what he has/is. Whining about being a virgin, and then shitting on some nice girl who had pity on his sorry ass and got naked for him...
Is there some kind of High School Drama Endurance Award, with lots of cash associated. I can't think of any other explanation.
He's a prick, and deserves what he has/is. Whining about being a virgin, and then shitting on some nice girl who had pity on his sorry ass and got naked for him...
221
I didn't read the whole letter. It's like 16 year old me managed to make it to 22 without getting even half a life and that just hurts. Then after dude started posting in the comments I couldn't keep reading. Here's my advice:
1) Weed, smoke it.
2) Naked chicks? Touch them.
3) Drama? Avoid it.
The last one is the tricky bit because it sounds like you love the drama. It's harder to quit than cigarettes, I know. Try reading about the Khmer Rouge or the Cultural Revolution. It'll help you realize how you problems don't amount to even a small pile of beans. It makes it easier to let stuff go. It's just not that important. Forever alone? Beats being beaten daily and paraded around the streets in the back of a truck while kneeling on broken glass. Anxiety induced impotence? At least you didn't just have to execute your parents or die alongside them. You see how this works.
1) Weed, smoke it.
2) Naked chicks? Touch them.
3) Drama? Avoid it.
The last one is the tricky bit because it sounds like you love the drama. It's harder to quit than cigarettes, I know. Try reading about the Khmer Rouge or the Cultural Revolution. It'll help you realize how you problems don't amount to even a small pile of beans. It makes it easier to let stuff go. It's just not that important. Forever alone? Beats being beaten daily and paraded around the streets in the back of a truck while kneeling on broken glass. Anxiety induced impotence? At least you didn't just have to execute your parents or die alongside them. You see how this works.
222
@Centopar: What the fuck, this guy isn't anywhere near ASD. Why has "autistic" become the new buzzaord for "clueless cryptomysoginist nerd"? I love pop psychology from idiots!
223
@215: "Stop dwelling on the past. You're a virgin because you are, not because you're some romantic fuck up."
Fucking WRONG, he's both. He's obsessed with women, but he doesn't appreciate them just yet.
Fucking WRONG, he's both. He's obsessed with women, but he doesn't appreciate them just yet.
225
If they're both leaving to study abroad in August, who cares? They'll be out of your life soon enough. Why waste time worrying about them now?
And yeah, your assessment of that first girl as "sluttish" makes you sound pretty damn hopeless. Good luck.
And yeah, your assessment of that first girl as "sluttish" makes you sound pretty damn hopeless. Good luck.
226
@189/192 一年間神戸にすんでいて勉強していました。前に大学で一年間勉強しました。今年話すチャンスがありませんでした。悪くなりましたよね！
(you're right I just didn't edit properly when I changed my mind from hou ga to ba form XD)
東京べんで喋っていますか？関西で女の子だけは’さあ’をその方で使っています。
(you're right I just didn't edit properly when I changed my mind from hou ga to ba form XD)
東京べんで喋っていますか？関西で女の子だけは’さあ’をその方で使っています。
227
@ 197 - Suzy, good points about OCD / depression comorbidity and OCD onset. But I wanted to clarify that not everyone with OCD necessarily enjoys partying or is outgoing (which I say as an introvert with OCD).
229
What are you, Amish? THIS is your problem. You are 22.
the last girl undressed herself for me after knowing me for five days. I didn't sleep with her because I was turned off by this sluttish behavior
What are you, Amish? THIS is your problem. You are 22.
230
@57, nice to see someone who sees the same as me, however, I'd do things a little differently in that, I wouldn't even waste my time. She wants to date this guy the way he is, not my fucking problem. I really have no sympathy for anyone like this, and I'm going to make my damnedest sure I don't get drawn in. Thing is, I never actually have had to deal with or been in a situation like BPOAT, but I have read about this shit so much, it's already an instant reaction for me to go no fuckin way. I mean if anything, you should be telling this guy to say fuck it and let her fucking deal with it. She put herself in the situation, let her deal with it, go off and do your own thing. That's what I'd tell this guy.Too uncaring and cold for you all? Good. That's my point. Like I said, I have zero tolerance for this sort of thing and people need to be made more aware of instead of making fun of them.
232
@37 PBOAT casts himself as more of a court jester who isn't funny than a knight in shining armor. I wanted Stanley to beat the hell out of him within the first five minutes of reading his obnoxious letter. If PBOAT had said "I am 16" instead of "I am 22" perhaps I would have a modicum of sympathy for his well justified inferiority complexes.
233
@226 へー、神戸で勉強なったんですか？私、埼玉で勉強致しましたが、実は方言を勉強したくて神戸の方がいいと思っておりますので、ちょっとうらやましいです・・・方言を大変興味深く思っております。方言を覚えるために、何かいい方法はないでしょうか？
悪くはないですよ！二年間しか勉強なさっていないんですが、会話でもできれば素晴らしいと思いますよ。私の場合、八年間も勉強しているくせにまだぺらぺらではありません。
ええ、共通語で話しております。関西弁なら、女性だけ「さあ」をそういう風に使いますか？へー、初めて知りました！でも、女性ですから、別にいいんじゃないですか？（埼玉だと、「いいじゃん」と言いますけど、関西なら「やん」の方がよろしいでしょうか？）
いつでも日本語を練習したかったら、どうぞご遠慮なくメールして下さい！
(I promise that I can speak colloquial Japanese, too, if you're afraid that I'll never stop speaking Keigo. If you want to practice, I'm not going to have a chance to speak it in the upcoming year, either, so I'd be happy to practice with you. Especially if you're willing to teach me Kansai slang! I wrote my undergraduate thesis on dialectology; it's a particular interest of mine. I hope to write a graduate thesis or dissertation on it in the future, but I'm just working on a graduate degree in education next year, not Japanese...
Uh, that probably sounds really intense, but mostly I'm just crazy about the Japanese language. And I'm also impressed that, with only two years of studying under your belt, you're already so proficient!)
More...
悪くはないですよ！二年間しか勉強なさっていないんですが、会話でもできれば素晴らしいと思いますよ。私の場合、八年間も勉強しているくせにまだぺらぺらではありません。
ええ、共通語で話しております。関西弁なら、女性だけ「さあ」をそういう風に使いますか？へー、初めて知りました！でも、女性ですから、別にいいんじゃないですか？（埼玉だと、「いいじゃん」と言いますけど、関西なら「やん」の方がよろしいでしょうか？）
いつでも日本語を練習したかったら、どうぞご遠慮なくメールして下さい！
(I promise that I can speak colloquial Japanese, too, if you're afraid that I'll never stop speaking Keigo. If you want to practice, I'm not going to have a chance to speak it in the upcoming year, either, so I'd be happy to practice with you. Especially if you're willing to teach me Kansai slang! I wrote my undergraduate thesis on dialectology; it's a particular interest of mine. I hope to write a graduate thesis or dissertation on it in the future, but I'm just working on a graduate degree in education next year, not Japanese...
Uh, that probably sounds really intense, but mostly I'm just crazy about the Japanese language. And I'm also impressed that, with only two years of studying under your belt, you're already so proficient!)
234
@133 I was waiting for the first person to mention therapy, and I'm surprised it took this long. Allow me to rebut:
Mr Phonz: A therapist will help you cut through your own mental BS and self-talk and (quite likely) depression and social anxiety. A therapist will help you figure out what to do if you don't already know it.
A therapist is of limited use - at best - at helping you do what to do. A therapist (very) often provides an excuse for you to not do it, because you're in therapy and still working through your problems, bla, bla, bla.
However, right now, today, you know what to do: find something to do in your off hours that doesn't involve this particular melodrama and start doing it.
If you're still obsessing over this, replaying it in your mind again and again, after six months with little to no contact with Stanley, Stella, and Blanche, then talk to a therapist. They're good at that. They can help you with that. Just not so good at this.
Mr Phonz: A therapist will help you cut through your own mental BS and self-talk and (quite likely) depression and social anxiety. A therapist will help you figure out what to do if you don't already know it.
A therapist is of limited use - at best - at helping you do what to do. A therapist (very) often provides an excuse for you to not do it, because you're in therapy and still working through your problems, bla, bla, bla.
However, right now, today, you know what to do: find something to do in your off hours that doesn't involve this particular melodrama and start doing it.
If you're still obsessing over this, replaying it in your mind again and again, after six months with little to no contact with Stanley, Stella, and Blanche, then talk to a therapist. They're good at that. They can help you with that. Just not so good at this.
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A complete guide to Seattle's current art, film, dance, and theater season.
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