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News & ArtsThursday, May 12, 2011
TV / LGBTQITSLFA Just Amazing: Chaz Bono on David Letterman
Posted by David Schmader on Thu, May 12, 2011 at 9:44 AM
David Letterman devotes a good twenty minutes to clearing up his (and the nation's) confusion about what being trans means, with help from an incredibly poised and warm Chaz Bono (who I might now have a crush on. Goddamn attractive straight guys.)
Part one below, part two after the jump, Letterman does a wonderful job throughout, and don't forget—the award-winning documentary Becoming Chaz screens tomorrow night as the opening film of the 2011 Transgender Film Festival.
Thanks for the links, Towleroad.
3
I give Chaz Bono a lot of credit for having the courage, patience and grace to explain who he is, and David Letterman for exploring the subject in a respectful, yet light-hearted manner, that most people could relate to.
4
So here is a real question, if someone can address it without any snark I would appreciate it. I'm totally cool with transgender people, frankly i don't really care what people do with their own junk. Why is cutting off one's own penis OK, but people who suffer from Body Integrity Identity Disorder are classified as mentally ill? Seems to me there is a double standard.
And i know they really don't cut off their penis, it's inverted or something or another.
And i know they really don't cut off their penis, it's inverted or something or another.
5
Funny... The one Gay, Inc. source I've seen that's brought this interview up (The Advocate) ripped it to shreds because Letterman admitted to having some discomfort about the subject. Every other source I've seen in the blogosphere has thought it was great.
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"Okay, right there you have encapsulated my confusion." And there the interview should have ended. At least without a competent psychologist present to help Ms. Bono.
8
This was FANTASTIC ! Chaz is brave, amazing and extremely well spoken about such a "taboo" issue in this country. Letterman showed that he's a classy, intelligent and still funny host. Can you imagine Jay Leno doing this interview?? He'd be a wisecracking, stupid jackass making sophomoric jokes every 15 seconds just trying to get some laughs...
9
Actually, "Okay, right there you have encapsulated YOUR confusion" would have been more accurate...
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I thought both Dave and Chaz were great. Dave was honest and asked great questions while still keeping it light.
12
That was both moving and fascinating. To have that adult of a conversation on national TV took giant balls. Metaphorically speaking.
13
@9
Fine then, true. Chaz is confused. I was as lost as Dave. But I also feel bad for someone that mixed up and am grateful that I never had to experience such confusion in my life.
I get that she felt she was a lesbian as a teenager because she was always attracted to girls. What I still don't get is, what she means when she said she felt "like a boy" inside. Why can't you just be a girl with male friends who likes to play with trucks? Is the desire to "transition" just an obsession w/having your habits and behaviors match with what society deems "boy" like? Who the fuck cares what society thinks? Or did she actually feel/imagine that she had a ghost penis hanging off her body?
Trans. Sorry, tryin', but I don't get it.
Fine then, true. Chaz is confused. I was as lost as Dave. But I also feel bad for someone that mixed up and am grateful that I never had to experience such confusion in my life.
I get that she felt she was a lesbian as a teenager because she was always attracted to girls. What I still don't get is, what she means when she said she felt "like a boy" inside. Why can't you just be a girl with male friends who likes to play with trucks? Is the desire to "transition" just an obsession w/having your habits and behaviors match with what society deems "boy" like? Who the fuck cares what society thinks? Or did she actually feel/imagine that she had a ghost penis hanging off her body?
Trans. Sorry, tryin', but I don't get it.
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@13 The reason she might not want to just stay a butch dyke is that by transitioning, the hormone injections cause many male characteristics such as facial/body hair growth and increased muscle mass. (Google "Buck Angel" for a good example - NSFW!) Also, most FTMs have breast reduction, but don't go for genital reconstruction, since the results are not all that desirable.
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I feel an element of that too, @13. One of the things Chaz mentioned was that she was always playing with other boys growing up. The idea that a girl who plays with boys must be a boy at heart is so heteronormative it makes my head spin.
Ultimately though I shrug off such thoughts, because I can't imagine a transperson going to all the trouble of therapy, hormones, surgery, etc, without serious reason.
Ultimately though I shrug off such thoughts, because I can't imagine a transperson going to all the trouble of therapy, hormones, surgery, etc, without serious reason.
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@ 13 because gender identity has nothing to do with "proper gender behaviors".
when i was really little i wanted so bad to be a boy. i played with trucks, all my fiends where boys. i thought it was the coolest thing to be able to pee standing up. i used to pray that god would magically make me a boy.
i grew out of that as i realized that i could be that tom boy and still be a girl. i am not trans, never was.
when i hit puberty as uncomfortable as that can be for anyone, i found i loved my body. i liked getting breasts, i loved getting hips. i did not like the particulars of having a period, but i loved that i had hit that milestone. as chaz mentions in the interview the growing of breasts how terrible that was for him. they felt like growths.
i would say imagine back to when you were in puberty and imagine growing the characteristics of the opposite sex. breasts/hips if you are a man. facial hair/lower voice/body build of a man if you are woman. imagine how that would have made you feel then. imagine if that body was still what you had today.
that is if you really do want to "get it".
when i was really little i wanted so bad to be a boy. i played with trucks, all my fiends where boys. i thought it was the coolest thing to be able to pee standing up. i used to pray that god would magically make me a boy.
i grew out of that as i realized that i could be that tom boy and still be a girl. i am not trans, never was.
when i hit puberty as uncomfortable as that can be for anyone, i found i loved my body. i liked getting breasts, i loved getting hips. i did not like the particulars of having a period, but i loved that i had hit that milestone. as chaz mentions in the interview the growing of breasts how terrible that was for him. they felt like growths.
i would say imagine back to when you were in puberty and imagine growing the characteristics of the opposite sex. breasts/hips if you are a man. facial hair/lower voice/body build of a man if you are woman. imagine how that would have made you feel then. imagine if that body was still what you had today.
that is if you really do want to "get it".
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so so great. Chaz was also one of the early contributors to the It Gets Better Project. I heart Chaz
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Kudos to both. They managed to cover a pretty complex and little talked about subject in an informative yet humorous manner. I kind of expected that from Chaz, but was more surprised by Letterman. He admitted confusion over trans issues, which probably reflects a huge majority of the population, and yet seemed honestly curious. He interjected a bit of humor occasionally, without being an asshole about it or making Chaz the but of the joke.
Well done. You'd expect something like this on a talk show, like Oprah. But on a late night comedy show? Wow.
Well done. You'd expect something like this on a talk show, like Oprah. But on a late night comedy show? Wow.
20
Yeah, pretty awesome work by both of 'em. 'Course some folk will never grok it (as some of the comments above demonstrate) -- but if we can all live 'n' let live, and lay off the assaults (Baltimore) and fearmongering (men in wigs in the bathrooms!), that'd be a good start.
It takes amazing courage for a famous person to transition.
It takes amazing courage for a famous person to transition.
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@13, why do you have to "get it" before you acknowledge that Chaz is now a he, not a she? People are not projections of your experience. They are different from you, and maybe you'll never understand, but why does that matter? You probably don't get what it's like to be blind, either, but you wouldn't insist that blind people are just willfully refusing to see, would you?
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And oh, by the way, @7, competent psychologists *do* help folk like Chaz. They help 'em transition. You can't surgically transition without the say so of the psychs. The surgeons wanna see that letter first.
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(And by using the comparison of blindness, I don't mean to imply that being transgendered is a disability. It's just a different way of experiencing the world.)
24
As a straight male who grew up in a small town with little exposure to issues of transgender or homo/bisexuality but now has a close friend going through the process of transgender counciling and hormone therapy, this interview really helped a lot. It is hard not to be confused or uncomfortable at least a little about issues like this, as there are a lot of questions it brings up that can be difficult to ask, as they tend to be about things many people consider private or impolite to discuss, and seeing someone you care about go through this change without knowing what is appropriate to discuss orknowing the first thing about the issues they face is daunting. It was nice to have such a well-spoken person as Chas there talking with a friendly familiar face like Dave, who did a great job getting past the usual hurdles and kept things light-hearted while asking some questions others might not want to.
25
This interview was awesome. Chaz was amazing.
Also, this comments section proves that none of our resident trolls are Loveschild sockpuppets. Loveschild was actually (weirdly and inaccurately) pro-trans, believing all gay people should change their gender.
Also, this comments section proves that none of our resident trolls are Loveschild sockpuppets. Loveschild was actually (weirdly and inaccurately) pro-trans, believing all gay people should change their gender.
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@24: I'd suggest you get the book. Not only would it help you understand more, but it would show your friend that you really are trying to support and understand.
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@13 The cause of transsexualism isn't known yet, but there has been a lot of research into it. Studies have found that male-to-female transsexuals have the same number of neurons in the limbic system as females do: http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content… This particular part of the brain appears to be associated with sexual behavior and removing it in rats leads to them showing no interest in sex, regardless of hormone levels.
Antonio Guillamon did a study using brain scans rather than post-mortem examinations and found that pre-hormone treatment female-to-male transsexuals exhibited male brain traits in the white matter: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob…
So for those who are trans, it's not about playing with trucks or dolls as a kid. At this time it looks like a physical brain difference which causes changes in behavior and identity. We can look back on our past and try to say certain things we did as a kid are indicative of things (I've heard more than a few gay men cite their interest in show tunes as kids, as if that has anything to do with loving cock), but that isn't what makes us who we are. It's just people painting their childhood in a certain light and trying to make sense of things. What is truly behind identity and truly behind knowing that you're a man or a woman is what's going on in your brain. If your brain is built like a male brain and screaming at you "I am a man" every day, then the fact that you have breasts and the world looks at you as a woman would be very disturbing. Can surgery and hormones make a biologically female body biologically male? No, but transition can lessen some of that agony and make people see what the trans person's brain knows they're supposed to see.
More...
Antonio Guillamon did a study using brain scans rather than post-mortem examinations and found that pre-hormone treatment female-to-male transsexuals exhibited male brain traits in the white matter: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob…
So for those who are trans, it's not about playing with trucks or dolls as a kid. At this time it looks like a physical brain difference which causes changes in behavior and identity. We can look back on our past and try to say certain things we did as a kid are indicative of things (I've heard more than a few gay men cite their interest in show tunes as kids, as if that has anything to do with loving cock), but that isn't what makes us who we are. It's just people painting their childhood in a certain light and trying to make sense of things. What is truly behind identity and truly behind knowing that you're a man or a woman is what's going on in your brain. If your brain is built like a male brain and screaming at you "I am a man" every day, then the fact that you have breasts and the world looks at you as a woman would be very disturbing. Can surgery and hormones make a biologically female body biologically male? No, but transition can lessen some of that agony and make people see what the trans person's brain knows they're supposed to see.
29
I'm not quite on board with this idea of removing transexuality as a mental disorder. I can totally understand where he and other transfolks are coming from with the idea; the stigma of mental illness is terrible and their condition in no way renders them incapable as people.
Having said that however it does appear that being transgender is a mental condition that, left untreated, causes severe emotional distress in those suffering from it.
Now, the complication comes from the fact that in the case of transexuality the only viable treatment currently available is trying to mold the physical body to conform to the gender identity, since gender identity is pretty much impervious to change (at least with current techniques). Once a transgender individual is allowed to transition, much of the distress goes away. We will be able to remove even more of it as society progresses and also by earlier diagnosis and treatment, so people with firm diagnosis can start as soon as possible to reduce mental distress and augment the physical result.
However that doesn't change the fact that transgender individuals are born with a condition that requires major medical treatment. This is generally called an illness or a disability. I think disability doesn't fit and given that it almost certainly is a brain issue, mental illness is the best fit, scientifically. I would however support making sure that being transgender is NOT treated as a mental illness in terms of popping up on background checks, preventing security clearances etc. It's a very particular illness and should be treated as such.
Having said that however it does appear that being transgender is a mental condition that, left untreated, causes severe emotional distress in those suffering from it.
Now, the complication comes from the fact that in the case of transexuality the only viable treatment currently available is trying to mold the physical body to conform to the gender identity, since gender identity is pretty much impervious to change (at least with current techniques). Once a transgender individual is allowed to transition, much of the distress goes away. We will be able to remove even more of it as society progresses and also by earlier diagnosis and treatment, so people with firm diagnosis can start as soon as possible to reduce mental distress and augment the physical result.
However that doesn't change the fact that transgender individuals are born with a condition that requires major medical treatment. This is generally called an illness or a disability. I think disability doesn't fit and given that it almost certainly is a brain issue, mental illness is the best fit, scientifically. I would however support making sure that being transgender is NOT treated as a mental illness in terms of popping up on background checks, preventing security clearances etc. It's a very particular illness and should be treated as such.
31
@29:
i get what you're saying. . . yeah it's complicated. There is some resistance to remove it from the DSM because it adds support to get people treatment. It can be coded and in some (more all the time) it can be covered by health insurance. (fwiw. . . I'd rather the condition just be given an IDC-9 code without it being in the big book of crazy. . . I don't know why it can't. . . but i guess it's complicated?)
fwiw. . . France dropped it from their list o' crazy, and have it covered, so yeah *surprise* the US is behind some European countries when it comes to certain social issues! :P
there has been some revisions that supported an "exit clause" to GID where they would not have that diagnosis once they underwent transition. (which I like)
I'd question your wording of "requires major medical treatment." HRT is totally cheap and easy. . . and in the big scheme of things a vaginoplasty is too. . . it's no Chemo and doesn't have any life long effects like so many other things out there. . . I mean, even take arthritis patients for example!
. . . it only seems like big deal because people get skeeved out when they mess with gender. Your body knows what to do with hormones. . .
i get what you're saying. . . yeah it's complicated. There is some resistance to remove it from the DSM because it adds support to get people treatment. It can be coded and in some (more all the time) it can be covered by health insurance. (fwiw. . . I'd rather the condition just be given an IDC-9 code without it being in the big book of crazy. . . I don't know why it can't. . . but i guess it's complicated?)
fwiw. . . France dropped it from their list o' crazy, and have it covered, so yeah *surprise* the US is behind some European countries when it comes to certain social issues! :P
there has been some revisions that supported an "exit clause" to GID where they would not have that diagnosis once they underwent transition. (which I like)
I'd question your wording of "requires major medical treatment." HRT is totally cheap and easy. . . and in the big scheme of things a vaginoplasty is too. . . it's no Chemo and doesn't have any life long effects like so many other things out there. . . I mean, even take arthritis patients for example!
. . . it only seems like big deal because people get skeeved out when they mess with gender. Your body knows what to do with hormones. . .
32
@13:
Well I guess the good news is trans men and women don't need you "to get" them for them to be legitimate human beings. . . so there's that. :P
in any event, your "if the shoes doesn't fit, why change the foot?" argument was dead in the 70's and is even more dead today.
Gender identity isn't a social construct. . . no more than sexual orientation.
It's like Dan's argument about being gay. . .
therefore. . . if being a woman or a man (regardless of what your body looks like) is a choice - it's all just playing a role in culture. . . then okay choose it. . . if your a man go put on a dress. . . go to work and ask everyone to call you Sue. . . Call your mom and dad. . . tell them. . . call up old friends, tell EVERYONE you know. . and see if all of that "choice" makes you feel good. Deal?
Well I guess the good news is trans men and women don't need you "to get" them for them to be legitimate human beings. . . so there's that. :P
in any event, your "if the shoes doesn't fit, why change the foot?" argument was dead in the 70's and is even more dead today.
Gender identity isn't a social construct. . . no more than sexual orientation.
It's like Dan's argument about being gay. . .
"You think being gay is a choice? Then choose it: Suck my dick. Show me how it's done. You choose it - suck my dick - right now, and I'll videotape it, and then we'll put the proof that being gay is a choice on the internet for the whole world to see. Deal?"
therefore. . . if being a woman or a man (regardless of what your body looks like) is a choice - it's all just playing a role in culture. . . then okay choose it. . . if your a man go put on a dress. . . go to work and ask everyone to call you Sue. . . Call your mom and dad. . . tell them. . . call up old friends, tell EVERYONE you know. . and see if all of that "choice" makes you feel good. Deal?
33
@31, I think a good compromise as you said would be to officially differentiate between untreated and treated transgender individuals. Thus someone who has completed a transition (and/or gotten to the point where they are comfortable) could be considered "cured" of the illness, even though some continuing of medication occurs.
I didn't mean to imply that transitioning was any more major or dangerous than many other treatments, but I think I would stand by calling it major. Hormonal therapy isn't major of course, but vaginoplasty as well as a bilateral mastectomy are not minor surgery. I would say that a woman going in for a bilateral mastectomy is undergoing a major medical treatment, and I think a transman doing it is also undergoing a major medical treatment.
I didn't mean to imply that transitioning was any more major or dangerous than many other treatments, but I think I would stand by calling it major. Hormonal therapy isn't major of course, but vaginoplasty as well as a bilateral mastectomy are not minor surgery. I would say that a woman going in for a bilateral mastectomy is undergoing a major medical treatment, and I think a transman doing it is also undergoing a major medical treatment.
34
Wow. How refreshing to see a humane and intelligent discussion on transgender issues. Dave asked great questions and made sure to direct the humor towards himself and his own confusion/anxiety, rather than towards Chaz. Smartly done. Chaz was charming and good-humored, and seemed eager to answer any questions directly and with great eloquence and personal insight. It all made for a terrific and arresting interview.
36
@13 - Some people feel different than the way they look. Some females feel like a man and when puberty hits that is really odd to them to develope breasts etc. It isn't that you want to play with males, you FEEL like a male inside. I totally understand what Chaz is saying here. I don't know if you can understand if you don't feel it... It is a shock to look in the mirror and see the female!
37
people, Chaz is "he", not "she". please don't call him "she". thanks.
i thought the interview was relatively good, but it is not acceptable to "be an asshole", no matter what. transitioning does not give anyone license to be an asshole.
the picture of Chaz as a child at the end was not ok. I don't know why people are so obsessed with the "before" and "after" shots. focusing on transpeople's lives before transition can feel really disrespectful. at least, I feel disrespected when people look at/show old pictures of me or refer to me by my old pronoun.
and for those of you who don't understand, it is not necessary for you to understand. it is necessary for you to respect, whether you understand or not. there aren't always answers to all of your questions. we are trans because we feel a certain way about ourselves. just like you are not trans because you feel a certain way about yourselves. only you've never had to think about the fact that you feel it at all.
just some opinions from another trans guy.
i thought the interview was relatively good, but it is not acceptable to "be an asshole", no matter what. transitioning does not give anyone license to be an asshole.
the picture of Chaz as a child at the end was not ok. I don't know why people are so obsessed with the "before" and "after" shots. focusing on transpeople's lives before transition can feel really disrespectful. at least, I feel disrespected when people look at/show old pictures of me or refer to me by my old pronoun.
and for those of you who don't understand, it is not necessary for you to understand. it is necessary for you to respect, whether you understand or not. there aren't always answers to all of your questions. we are trans because we feel a certain way about ourselves. just like you are not trans because you feel a certain way about yourselves. only you've never had to think about the fact that you feel it at all.
just some opinions from another trans guy.
38
@transguy31: He defined his previous female state as being an illness. If he had, say, cancer, it wouldn't be disrespectful to show him skinny and hairless.There is a big change, people are curious to see what changed. Most of the changes were visble, and intended to be so.
Can you explain me why it make you (and you're no the first one I hear with his reaction) angry?
@21: I must admit I am among the people transsexualism confuse. I am 100% for them to get all the same rights (although I'm not sure which rights they're fighting for) and respect as every other human being.
But I still don't understand. He spoke of the gender of the brain, which is a nonsense to me. My brain doesn't have a gender. My dna does, my genitals do, my hormones do as well. But not my brain. It always upset me when people tell that "girls are..." "boy likes..." "girls prefer...." "boys do ..." 99% of what we define gender identity with is social construction.
When I was a teen, I got hips, breasts, periods,... It wasn't defining my identity, not more than my height or my eye color. It just happened to my body.
So my question is: in a perfect world, were nobody would care about your gender expect for sex, where you could dress, behave, work, as you want, were you could behave, were nobody would care what gender your friends are,... would there still be trans people?
What does man/woman mean for people who transition?
Can you explain me why it make you (and you're no the first one I hear with his reaction) angry?
@21: I must admit I am among the people transsexualism confuse. I am 100% for them to get all the same rights (although I'm not sure which rights they're fighting for) and respect as every other human being.
But I still don't understand. He spoke of the gender of the brain, which is a nonsense to me. My brain doesn't have a gender. My dna does, my genitals do, my hormones do as well. But not my brain. It always upset me when people tell that "girls are..." "boy likes..." "girls prefer...." "boys do ..." 99% of what we define gender identity with is social construction.
When I was a teen, I got hips, breasts, periods,... It wasn't defining my identity, not more than my height or my eye color. It just happened to my body.
So my question is: in a perfect world, were nobody would care about your gender expect for sex, where you could dress, behave, work, as you want, were you could behave, were nobody would care what gender your friends are,... would there still be trans people?
What does man/woman mean for people who transition?
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