Slog
News & ArtsMonday, April 25, 2011
Homo Trans Woman Brutally Attacked
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 7:22 AM
She was dragged out of bathroom in a McDonald's in Baltimore and attacked by two women—both teenagers—and beaten nearly to death in front of a crowd of other customers and McDonalds employees. The attack only stopped after she had a seizure. A McDonald's employee filmed the attack and posted it to his YouTube account. (You can hear him laughing on the audio.) Other employees stood by and did nothing, other customers stood by and did nothing. One woman who tried to intervene—an older woman—was punched in the face. The McDonald's employee who filmed the attack—since fired—can be heard warning the attackers that the police were coming and they might want to get out of there. The video of the attack is here and it's not easy to watch. The Baltimore Sun has an interview with the victim:
Another heartbreaking video. But Chrissy Lee Polis is great: articulate and insightful and charismatic and composed. I'm not always comfortable with the way victims of anti-gay violence or discrimination are sometimes elevated to hero/activist status—not all of victims of discrimination are good spokespeople, not all are able to handle the pressure or the scrutiny, many wind up feeling used after attention turns to fresh victim/heroes—but this woman could put a face to the violence and discrimination that trans people endure in our society. And she needs a job. (Although she might own her very own McDonald's franchise soon.) I hope the national orgs are paying attention.
For Sloggers in Baltimore and/or D.C.: there will be a candlelight vigil at the McDonalds where Polis was attacked at 7 P.M. this evening (6315 Kenwood Ave. in Rosedale, Baltimore).
1
That poor woman. I really hope all of this doesn't make it even harder for her to find work. At least one online newspaper I saw published her legal (male) name and some stuff from her background that was in no way connected to being assaulted, but definitely calculated to make her look less sympathetic to the puritan, judgmental assholes out there.
2
Black people beating people up at a fast food joint? Isn't this a Charles thread?
Remember good Sloggers, this video, like about 90% of them that feature black people, is NOT about race. Say it enough, you may believe it.
Remember good Sloggers, this video, like about 90% of them that feature black people, is NOT about race. Say it enough, you may believe it.
3
It's weird- she looks exactly like a girl I've seen before. I can't put my finger on it- but she makes for a convincing lady.
My heart goes out to her and I hope she can get beyond this and find happiness. She deserves it.
My heart goes out to her and I hope she can get beyond this and find happiness. She deserves it.
4
SO let me get this straight, when I get on a bus and see a group of young black males/females, and decide to put away my iPhone and change seats, that makes me a racist?
5
Inb4 racist shitstorm.
Trolls: it's not about black people; it's about poor people. Crawl back under your rocks.
Trolls: it's not about black people; it's about poor people. Crawl back under your rocks.
6
What an utter humanity "fail", God, how could you watch and not get involved? And she's brilliant, as you say. What a testament to having more character than any of the assholes who watched/participated in the attack.
7
"it's not about black people"
Really? How come I don't see poor Chinese, Vietnamese, whites doing this on youtube every week in buses, trains, fast joints, schools, bus tunnels etc. etc.?
Really? How come I don't see poor Chinese, Vietnamese, whites doing this on youtube every week in buses, trains, fast joints, schools, bus tunnels etc. etc.?
8
I like how the all black staff do nothing but keep filming and talking about their upcoming youtube hit 'black people gone wild'.
What would everyone say if she was black and every else white, would it be about white people then?
I guess I'm a racist everytime I see a group of skanky young black kids get on a a bus and I put away my iPhone.
What would everyone say if she was black and every else white, would it be about white people then?
I guess I'm a racist everytime I see a group of skanky young black kids get on a a bus and I put away my iPhone.
9
"Other employees stood by and did nothing, other customers stood by and did nothing."
I can understand why the employees did nothing, they would have risked being fired, which at a McDonalds, doesnt take much to lose your job.
There is also the possability that customers would be sued for trying to stop the asault. As dumb as that sounds, it happens and counter sueing to recoup lawyer fees will be a challenge. You can just jump in, defend someone and hope some pro-gay philanthropist pays your lawyer fees.
Its one messed up win/lose situation.
I can understand why the employees did nothing, they would have risked being fired, which at a McDonalds, doesnt take much to lose your job.
There is also the possability that customers would be sued for trying to stop the asault. As dumb as that sounds, it happens and counter sueing to recoup lawyer fees will be a challenge. You can just jump in, defend someone and hope some pro-gay philanthropist pays your lawyer fees.
Its one messed up win/lose situation.
10
"an understand why the employees did nothing,"
Really? Blaming McDonalds? this woman is on the floor, having a seizure, the thugettes have left, but all they do is walk up and keep filming?
Right, it's McDonald's fault.
"there is also the possability that customers would be sued for trying to stop the assault."
Didn't stop that one little old white lady from trying.
What we have here is an inner city black culture almost completely devoid of humanity and a bunch of white liberals making excuses.
Really? Blaming McDonalds? this woman is on the floor, having a seizure, the thugettes have left, but all they do is walk up and keep filming?
Right, it's McDonald's fault.
"there is also the possability that customers would be sued for trying to stop the assault."
Didn't stop that one little old white lady from trying.
What we have here is an inner city black culture almost completely devoid of humanity and a bunch of white liberals making excuses.
11
@Alleged, fuck the fuck off. This has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with our culture's deep seated transphobia. Few people are targeted and attacked so brutally and disproportionately as trans people.
Here's an infographic that demonstrates how mindfuckingly evil we are to this particular set of people for being who they are, and this just shows the kids.
Here's an infographic that demonstrates how mindfuckingly evil we are to this particular set of people for being who they are, and this just shows the kids.
12
This makes me sick. Ugh....
Hey, those of you with accounts: Why the hell don't you have unregistered comments HIDDEN? Alleged will disappear when you stop giving him attention. Hiding his comments will do that, and yes, it's worth missing a few, rare insightful comments that someone without an account might post.
Hey, those of you with accounts: Why the hell don't you have unregistered comments HIDDEN? Alleged will disappear when you stop giving him attention. Hiding his comments will do that, and yes, it's worth missing a few, rare insightful comments that someone without an account might post.
13
@9: Something is wrong with a society where the thought of being sued is what runs through people's mind when seeing an assault. I understand why people have been forced to think that way, but it seems like such a dismal failure in North American culture.
I hope that I have the courage to never let the fear of being sued stop me from doing the right thing.
I hope that I have the courage to never let the fear of being sued stop me from doing the right thing.
14
It is amazing how libs try to obscure the issue with BS. They really think we are as dumb as they are.
READ THE POLICE REPORT.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/marylan…...
1. The confrontation started BEFORE she went into the bathroom.
2. One of the attackers stated to the police she had got into a fight with a woman.
These two thuggettes did not know the victim was a transsexual. So much for the "they objected to a man being in the bathroom" BS. The attackers were black. The store employees who were yuckking it up and did nothing to help her (with one exception)were black. Those who helped them escape were black. There were racial insults shouted during the fight.
READ THE POLICE REPORT.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/marylan…...
1. The confrontation started BEFORE she went into the bathroom.
2. One of the attackers stated to the police she had got into a fight with a woman.
These two thuggettes did not know the victim was a transsexual. So much for the "they objected to a man being in the bathroom" BS. The attackers were black. The store employees who were yuckking it up and did nothing to help her (with one exception)were black. Those who helped them escape were black. There were racial insults shouted during the fight.
15
@Alleged, More stats to show you this heinous attack is symptomatic of AN ENORMOUS PROBLEM that has nothing to do with race. In a 1997 study, 78% of trans people reported being verbally harassed, and 48% reported having been assaulted, including with a weapon, sexual assault or rape. In 2001, 74% of transgender students reported being sexually harassed at school. In 2003, 55% of trans students reported being physically assaulted. As a result of society's intolerance, some 33% of trans youth have attempted suicide. Source
Oh, and here is a page with handily color coded maps and data sets that show reported murders of trans people around the world, and list the particularly brutal ways in which they are killed and where their bodies are deposited. If this is a "race" problem, every "race" has it.
@13, The trolls provide a good reason to post some very important stats on the prevalence of violence towards trans people that really can't be shown too often.
Oh, and here is a page with handily color coded maps and data sets that show reported murders of trans people around the world, and list the particularly brutal ways in which they are killed and where their bodies are deposited. If this is a "race" problem, every "race" has it.
@13, The trolls provide a good reason to post some very important stats on the prevalence of violence towards trans people that really can't be shown too often.
16
The brutality may or may not have been because the victim was white, but the employees telling their homegirls to run off before the po po comes? Fucking racist as hell.
17
"omething is wrong with a society where the thought of being sued is what runs through people's mind when seeing an assault."
Do you seriously think that was what was going through the minds of a bunch of 18 yr old burger flippers more intent on getting youtube hit?
"Oh my, I might get sued! I'd better keep making a video and yucking it up!"
"The trolls provide a good reason to post some very important stats on the prevalence of violence towards trans"
Except the police reports says the thuggettes thought she was a woman and attacked her before she even went into the restroom.
Do you seriously think that was what was going through the minds of a bunch of 18 yr old burger flippers more intent on getting youtube hit?
"Oh my, I might get sued! I'd better keep making a video and yucking it up!"
"The trolls provide a good reason to post some very important stats on the prevalence of violence towards trans"
Except the police reports says the thuggettes thought she was a woman and attacked her before she even went into the restroom.
19
Spooky, scary video for an transperson to watch. Makes you think it could happen to you. :: I think transfolk -- indeed, all queerfolk -- should get some martial arts training. It'll be a long time before I set foot in a McDonald's again, that's for sure.
22
@Alleged, as much as you try to make this about what degenerate animals you think black people are, it does not work this way. The police report makes no mention of race, just that she was attacked as she was attempting to enter the restroom. Why did they want to keep her out of the restroom? Well the guy that taped the whole scene made this comment on the video (since deleted): “And When Told To Get Out Tha ladies Bathroom He Got Smart With Everybody So Tha Two Girls Beat Him Up [sic]”. Sure, they had NOOO idea she's trans.
Source
@20, Alleged is every fuckhead troll too cowardly to register on SLOG and own their comments.
Source
@20, Alleged is every fuckhead troll too cowardly to register on SLOG and own their comments.
23
Rush talked about how awful this was last week (although he didn't mention that she was transgendered).
24
@23 ... I wonder what Rush will say now.
What a broken society in that part of the USA. In other areas of the US or Europe, do you really think ANYONE would stand around and allow this to happen? Hell no! (Hopefully I'm not wrong.)
What a broken society in that part of the USA. In other areas of the US or Europe, do you really think ANYONE would stand around and allow this to happen? Hell no! (Hopefully I'm not wrong.)
25
@7: Clearly you don't go on Youtube LOOKING FOR poor white or Asian people. Trust me, people who have grown up in bad neighborhoods and were never raised properly can be damn trashy, regardless of their ethnicity.
@20: Alleged is a term coined by Uriel238 (I think it was him; this was around the time I came to SLOG) to refer to a general breed of unregistered dumbass. We've also got Gommorah Man (who always misspells "Gomorrah"), Responsible Doc (a serious transphobic quack), and a few registered dumbasses such as Loveschild (homophobic Church Lady always at odds with Kim in Portland's compassionate christianity), Lord Basil (blatant Poe's Law parody), Seattleblues (pseudo-intellectual prat who thinks that opinions are an acceptable substitute for evidence), the Period Hive Mind (basically Alleged with SLOG immigration documents), whatsbeckgottodowithit (failed newfag troll), and Basehead (shock jock, and moar liek Crackhead, amirite?). I ought to come up with a classification system.
@20: Alleged is a term coined by Uriel238 (I think it was him; this was around the time I came to SLOG) to refer to a general breed of unregistered dumbass. We've also got Gommorah Man (who always misspells "Gomorrah"), Responsible Doc (a serious transphobic quack), and a few registered dumbasses such as Loveschild (homophobic Church Lady always at odds with Kim in Portland's compassionate christianity), Lord Basil (blatant Poe's Law parody), Seattleblues (pseudo-intellectual prat who thinks that opinions are an acceptable substitute for evidence), the Period Hive Mind (basically Alleged with SLOG immigration documents), whatsbeckgottodowithit (failed newfag troll), and Basehead (shock jock, and moar liek Crackhead, amirite?). I ought to come up with a classification system.
27
Oh venomlash, that would be perfect, make a document you could link to each time. Also, the "naive white" whosit who got banned not too long ago. I always think the unregistered racist ones are his. Oh! And Jake in Chinatown, don't forget...
28
I think black people tend to be pretty homophobic, but I think it has more to do with poverty and ignorance than anything else. The poor and the uneducated tend to hate and fear anyone who is different from them. Thus two young black women brutally beat a white transsexual while a bunch of older white people question the citizenship of our mixed race president.
29
@25, I miss the LovesChild collective, they were always so entertaining - the contradictions every other post, the pseudo-mythopoeic blather. Really a great example of how unhinged the anti-equal rights people are.
30
Danny, you do realize the attackers, and employees who did nothing, are fellow Big Tent Democraps, don't you?
Those are your people.
And, @9, those trial lawyers who will punish anyone who dares do the right thing, they are also loyal Democraps.
In fact the Democraps and Obama are bought and paid for by the Trial Lawyers Association.
so,
please,
all you Liberals,
spare us your crocodile tears-
this is the Gaymerica you've worked so hard to create.
Those are your people.
And, @9, those trial lawyers who will punish anyone who dares do the right thing, they are also loyal Democraps.
In fact the Democraps and Obama are bought and paid for by the Trial Lawyers Association.
so,
please,
all you Liberals,
spare us your crocodile tears-
this is the Gaymerica you've worked so hard to create.
32
@26: Look, Gommorah Man! I SO CALLED THAT ONE.
@27: Ah yes, Naive White Libtarded Seattle Progressive. He got b&, bitched about it for a little while as an unregistered, and then R-U-N-N-O-F-T.
@27: Ah yes, Naive White Libtarded Seattle Progressive. He got b&, bitched about it for a little while as an unregistered, and then R-U-N-N-O-F-T.
35
"Trust me, people who have grown up in bad neighborhoods and were never raised properly can be damn trashy, regardless of their ethnicity."
What a shame actual facts, like crime stats, don't back that fantasy up.
Enjoy the ghetto ladies.
What a shame actual facts, like crime stats, don't back that fantasy up.
Enjoy the ghetto ladies.
36
And here comes the Period Hive Mind! This thread is a troll magnet! Will Seattleblues show up? Who else is coming to the party? I wait intently.
38
Of course, had this been a black girl in a room full if violent whites, race would have played no part in it.
39
So I guess queers and black folk make fine partners in the fight for social justice.
Enjoy the ghetto ladies and remember it's very hard to out run your fellow 'oppressed' in high heels.
Enjoy the ghetto ladies and remember it's very hard to out run your fellow 'oppressed' in high heels.
44
@13,
It doesn't. Only people who know a lot about the legal system (lawyers) or people who have burned by civil lawsuits before (a very small minority) would think of that in the heat of the moment. Any decent person at that restaurant (where, apparently, the pickings were slim) failed to intervene because of the bystander effect.
It doesn't. Only people who know a lot about the legal system (lawyers) or people who have burned by civil lawsuits before (a very small minority) would think of that in the heat of the moment. Any decent person at that restaurant (where, apparently, the pickings were slim) failed to intervene because of the bystander effect.
45
The black community, generally, is pretty backwards when it comes to several different social issues. It is more difficult to lay the blame for violent homophobia at the feet of poverty, crack-cocaine, or even fatherless households; it is much easier to lay it at the foot of the church using all the anxiety that comes with a low-income lifestyle to push forward its backward agenda.
46
Black folks and queers must unite and fight their common enemy: the Judean Peoples Front!
tinyurl.com/2hrf59
tinyurl.com/2hrf59
47
@46, I'm sorry, but you need to be a registered user with basic html skills to join the funny links fiesta.
49
@33: Nah, I've just got obsessive tendencies. Let me put it this way; I don't just catch all the Pokemon, I also sort and organize them by National Pokedex order. Also, I've got a touch of photophobia and prefer dim spaces.
@35: "What a shame actual facts, like crime stats, don't back that fantasy up.
Enjoy the ghetto ladies."
What a shame actual facts, like crime stats, haven't actually been cited. Do you have any research suggesting that blacks have a higher propensity to criminality than others of comparable economic and social status? Or are you just shooting your fool mouth off again?
@37: I lol'ed.
@41: http://content.ytmnd.com/content/0/a/2/0…
@35: "What a shame actual facts, like crime stats, don't back that fantasy up.
Enjoy the ghetto ladies."
What a shame actual facts, like crime stats, haven't actually been cited. Do you have any research suggesting that blacks have a higher propensity to criminality than others of comparable economic and social status? Or are you just shooting your fool mouth off again?
@37: I lol'ed.
@41: http://content.ytmnd.com/content/0/a/2/0…
50
How incredibly disgusting and appalling. It made me sick to my stomach to watch this video, but I thought it was the least I could do. As horrible as watching this was, I know it's nothing compared to what Chrissy went through.
For those who are interested, there is a related petition here: http://www.change.org/petitions/demand-t…
For those who are interested, there is a related petition here: http://www.change.org/petitions/demand-t…
53
How awful. And the Maryland Senate just rejected a trans anti-discrimination bill a couple of weeks ago. It's hard not to wonder if there's a connection.
54
"It's hard not to wonder if there's a connection."
Yes, no doubt these thugettes closely follow the comings and goings of their legislators down in Annapolis.
But nice attempt to blame straight white males, let's keep trying folks!
Yes, no doubt these thugettes closely follow the comings and goings of their legislators down in Annapolis.
But nice attempt to blame straight white males, let's keep trying folks!
57
@55 I assume you're being sarcastic. And you're right, typically they - like people of all ages - probably don't. However, the cultural climate that made the new laws possible presumably also, in some way, made this horrible abuse possible.
60
@57,
The cultural climate that had the senate even considering anti-discrimination laws is a step forward. Few people gave a shit about trans rights even just 20 years ago, and no one was proposing legislation. #53 is still a dipshit.
The cultural climate that had the senate even considering anti-discrimination laws is a step forward. Few people gave a shit about trans rights even just 20 years ago, and no one was proposing legislation. #53 is still a dipshit.
61
"the cultural climate that made the new laws possible presumably also, in some way, made this horrible abuse possible."
Yes, because without that climate these girls would be upstanding citizens and no doubt before this sassy trannie walked into their lives, they were living crime-free, socially positive lives well on their ways to becoming contributing members of society.
So yet agaan, we have proven that this attack was the fault of the one group of people apparently not even at that McDonalds that night: straight, white men.
Yes, because without that climate these girls would be upstanding citizens and no doubt before this sassy trannie walked into their lives, they were living crime-free, socially positive lives well on their ways to becoming contributing members of society.
So yet agaan, we have proven that this attack was the fault of the one group of people apparently not even at that McDonalds that night: straight, white men.
62
I just watched both videos. I'm also awed by this woman's strength. It's amazing how so much violence against trans men and women is completely ignored in our country. Yeah, I couldn't imagine myself filming this while no one interfered in the fight, but at least cell phone cameras are bringing all sorts of injustice like this to people's screens.
63
Ah, my hometown Baltimore... Keeping it classy, as always. Maybe you should actually google the perp before bringing out the big race discussion. Her first assault was against 38-year-old Danielle Dower at the same location. Dower, who had her two children with her, was followed by Brown and her friends from this McDonald's to a grocery store. Brown reportedly assaulted Dower and her older daughter while Brown tried to call police. Dower is BLACK, by the way. Brown stalked this woman and her two daughters just to whoop ass, not because of race. Brown is just an asshole. Sometimes there isn't a bigger, meaningful drive behind assholery. Sometimes an asshole is just an freaking asshole. This asshole kicked a hornet's nest this time. I guess she lucked out last time by picking on an unprotected mother and her kids, who later dropped the charges. The question of whether this was a hate crime is just a cherry on the asshole sundae.
64
Ahem, correction to the above: Brown reportedly assaulted Dower and her older daughter while DOWER tried to call police. Getting a bit mixed up in my disgust of humanity, sorry!
65
"Keeping it classy, as always. Maybe you should actually google the perp before bringing out the big race discussion. "
Why, was Brown not-black during the other attacks you mention?
Why, was Brown not-black during the other attacks you mention?
66
@60 You're absolutely right, and on some level, we should be grateful, also, that this story is inspiring outrage. At the same time, I don't think it's inappropriate to let this incident serve as a reminder that we still have a long way to go.
67
@63 So if attacking a black person earlier proved she's not a racist, does attacking a cisgendered woman earlier also prove this is not anti-queer attack?
Let's just focus on the real problem: urban black thug culture.
Let's just focus on the real problem: urban black thug culture.
68
One thing we can all agree on, though: thank god she wasn't armed. Can you imagine if she had had a gun and was able to defend herself?
No, it's too horrible to contemplate. Much better for her to be a victim. For the sake of society. Much better.
No, it's too horrible to contemplate. Much better for her to be a victim. For the sake of society. Much better.
69
Lots of trolls here today for some reason, but one of them makes a funny point: with the possible exception of the old lady, everyone in the video is without a doubt a Democrat.
70
@68, it would have been extremely difficult for Chrissy to legally carry in MD, where their enlightened approach to the 2nd amendment has clearly solved the violence problem once and for all.
If I were trans, I would never leave the goddamn house without a Glock.
If I were trans, I would never leave the goddamn house without a Glock.
71
It seems like racial animus, as well as trans animus, MIGHT have played a role in this appalling assault. If the races were reversed--white girls attacking a black trans woman--it would be much easier to acknowledge this possibility.
I'm not defending the trolls, but to dismiss the racial aspect out of hand, or to suggest that considering that possibility is in itself racist, strikes me as Orwellian and downright strange.
@69 Everyone in the video, except the nice old lady, is (almost) without a doubt a non-voter.
I'm not defending the trolls, but to dismiss the racial aspect out of hand, or to suggest that considering that possibility is in itself racist, strikes me as Orwellian and downright strange.
@69 Everyone in the video, except the nice old lady, is (almost) without a doubt a non-voter.
73
yeah, wow, it's hard to watch the assault. . .
i think Dan made a good point about Chrissy moving forward. I think she needs to be careful to maybe not get sucked into being a poster child for trans / lgbt rights, etc. I think it can make it harder to recover and move on. . .
And. . . until the case is resolved, I think she needs to get good representation and keep quiet.
i think Dan made a good point about Chrissy moving forward. I think she needs to be careful to maybe not get sucked into being a poster child for trans / lgbt rights, etc. I think it can make it harder to recover and move on. . .
And. . . until the case is resolved, I think she needs to get good representation and keep quiet.
74
@73 It might even be too late. She goes on camera two days later acting all fine?? Dumb, dumb, dumb.
75
@74, It didn't look like she was acting fine at all. She kept herself composed, but you could tell there were a lot of big emotions flashing just beneath the surface. It took a lot of courage for her to go on camera.
77
Horrible! just sickening! such monsters!
Let's hope this woman gets an outpouring of support and someone can give her a job.
Let's hope this woman gets an outpouring of support and someone can give her a job.
78
"Everyone in the video, except the nice old lady, is (almost) without a doubt a non-voter."
Not if ACORN had its way.
Not if ACORN had its way.
79
this makes me feel so sick.
what the hell is wrong with people?! First to brutally attack another person like that, and then for all the people to stand back and watch, and even have the nerve to film it???
Makes me so angry.
what the hell is wrong with people?! First to brutally attack another person like that, and then for all the people to stand back and watch, and even have the nerve to film it???
Makes me so angry.
81
@75 What you or I think is irrelevant. The question is whether there are people out there who might be on jury duty the day this case gets its jury who would think she looked just fine despite having been so savagely beaten not three days before, and there are people like that.
What she did was stupid. She should've talked to a lawyer first, and the press second (if at all).
What she did was stupid. She should've talked to a lawyer first, and the press second (if at all).
82
Sickening. Just sickening.
Sometimes it's heart-warming to know that humanity has a lot to grow: actualizing hidden potentials and evolving further till we reach the stars etc.
And then sometimes it's not.
Sometimes it's heart-warming to know that humanity has a lot to grow: actualizing hidden potentials and evolving further till we reach the stars etc.
And then sometimes it's not.
83
"And then sometimes it's not."
I feel the same way whenever I walk past the McDonalds at 3rd and Pine too.
I feel the same way whenever I walk past the McDonalds at 3rd and Pine too.
84
Can someone actually come up with a (somewhat moderated) Wiki catalog of trolls? I think that'd be great but don't have the time, etc.
85
ITT: white trash unregistereds pretend to live in poor black neighborhoods. Back to Stormfront with you!
86
I didn't think I would be so affected by the video. Jesus, it's scary and sick. I hope those girls get jailed for 1st degree assault. It did seem like the manager (or someone) was trying to stop it halfheartedly before the woman stepped in. But, of course, he didn't actually stop it and, I guess, didn't call the police.
It's heartbreaking, the whole thing. I'm so glad she's okay.
Yeah, the black community probably is a bit more intolerant of gay and trans people. It does seem like that was the reason they beat her. Have to say, the fact that someone was videotaping it is as sick as the girls beating her up but it's good there's a video. They should be convicted with no problem.
It's heartbreaking, the whole thing. I'm so glad she's okay.
Yeah, the black community probably is a bit more intolerant of gay and trans people. It does seem like that was the reason they beat her. Have to say, the fact that someone was videotaping it is as sick as the girls beating her up but it's good there's a video. They should be convicted with no problem.
88
@84 and anyone interested, in the SLOG subsection of the forums I have started a thread to discuss how we can make a SLOG troll wiki: http://forums.thestranger.com/showthread…
89
@65, 67: I think I didn't clarify enough, too much emotional reaction there.
My point was that Brown seems to pick on unprotected people, period. I'm betting that's the real defining characteristic. My only point in bringing up the last case was that there was no apparent physical characteristic that made her want to attack her last recorded victim. She claimed that she overheard the victim calling her ugly from across the room. The mother couldn't convince her otherwise and so she stalked and assaulted this woman and her older kid while the younger daughter had to watch. I mean damn... Paranoid much?
I think it is a cultural thing in part - a culture of terror and silence. Growing up in a white low-income neighborhood in the city, most of the violence I personally encountered and witnessed was white against white. Of course, there was more variety than that but the core was always the same. Some asshole attacked a bystander for money or for kicks. The victim either tried to disappear as best he or she could until it blew over or tried to pursue legally and ended up dropping. Violent crimes in violent areas often go unreported or aren't taken seriously enough. Like I said, it's a classy place. It's pretty assholish across the board.
Overhearing so many assailants brag about beatings, I believe that most people don't have an actual reason for assault. Sometimes they'll cite a racial reason, sometimes a sexual identity reason, sometimes a disability reason. I hardly think those are valid reasons, I'm just saying that often times it was slapped on afterward or just a tipping point in their own warped mental justification for doing these things. In the last case she used an alleged overheard snippet of conversation as grounds for assault. In this case she used something even more flimsy. In a lot of cases it really does seem that the real motivation is just for a power trip and the justification comes afterward. Maybe Brown had a racial/transphobic rationale for this attack and added in some slurs just to be an asshole but I'd bet good money that she just felt like picking a fight and saw a lone girl there that she knew she could take. The racial /trans take on this could have been components of why they picked this particular girl, I'll grant that. Who knows? Her last charge shows that she's prone to lash out at random bystanders, not just white or transgendered people. Like the last woman, they probably beat the hell out of Polis because she was an easy target, not because of anything she did.
Shrug. I'm just saying that Brown seems to be a random asshole, nothing more than that to it. No grand transcendent message on race or sexual identity issues here. Brown may very well be racist and transphobic but she really seems people-phobic in general, which isn't any more commendable than targeted hatred.
More...
My point was that Brown seems to pick on unprotected people, period. I'm betting that's the real defining characteristic. My only point in bringing up the last case was that there was no apparent physical characteristic that made her want to attack her last recorded victim. She claimed that she overheard the victim calling her ugly from across the room. The mother couldn't convince her otherwise and so she stalked and assaulted this woman and her older kid while the younger daughter had to watch. I mean damn... Paranoid much?
I think it is a cultural thing in part - a culture of terror and silence. Growing up in a white low-income neighborhood in the city, most of the violence I personally encountered and witnessed was white against white. Of course, there was more variety than that but the core was always the same. Some asshole attacked a bystander for money or for kicks. The victim either tried to disappear as best he or she could until it blew over or tried to pursue legally and ended up dropping. Violent crimes in violent areas often go unreported or aren't taken seriously enough. Like I said, it's a classy place. It's pretty assholish across the board.
Overhearing so many assailants brag about beatings, I believe that most people don't have an actual reason for assault. Sometimes they'll cite a racial reason, sometimes a sexual identity reason, sometimes a disability reason. I hardly think those are valid reasons, I'm just saying that often times it was slapped on afterward or just a tipping point in their own warped mental justification for doing these things. In the last case she used an alleged overheard snippet of conversation as grounds for assault. In this case she used something even more flimsy. In a lot of cases it really does seem that the real motivation is just for a power trip and the justification comes afterward. Maybe Brown had a racial/transphobic rationale for this attack and added in some slurs just to be an asshole but I'd bet good money that she just felt like picking a fight and saw a lone girl there that she knew she could take. The racial /trans take on this could have been components of why they picked this particular girl, I'll grant that. Who knows? Her last charge shows that she's prone to lash out at random bystanders, not just white or transgendered people. Like the last woman, they probably beat the hell out of Polis because she was an easy target, not because of anything she did.
Shrug. I'm just saying that Brown seems to be a random asshole, nothing more than that to it. No grand transcendent message on race or sexual identity issues here. Brown may very well be racist and transphobic but she really seems people-phobic in general, which isn't any more commendable than targeted hatred.
90
"I'm just saying that Brown seems to be a random asshole"
Well, looking at baltimore's crime and murder rates, a city the same size as Seattle but with 10x the murder rate, do we have to guess at the demographic causing all its mayhem? Nothing random about it.
Well, looking at baltimore's crime and murder rates, a city the same size as Seattle but with 10x the murder rate, do we have to guess at the demographic causing all its mayhem? Nothing random about it.
93
Double the poverty rate, ten times the murder rate? Still 10x higher than the poorest parts of Appalachia too.
94
@Alleged, Why exactly are you so keen to show that black people are degenerate? Do you think we should be tailoring the law to specifically treat this degeneracy that you perceive?
96
@93: [citation needed]
Just to not be a hypocrite:
http://www.city-data.com/poverty/poverty…
http://www.city-data.com/poverty/poverty…
Just to not be a hypocrite:
http://www.city-data.com/poverty/poverty…
http://www.city-data.com/poverty/poverty…
98
@97: WV has relatively low murder rates because it has no fucking cities. Without dense concentrations of poor people, you don't have much of a propensity (or a market) for organized crime. And when crime isn't profitable, rates are lower.
99
"Without dense concentrations of poor people, you don't have much of a propensity (or a market) for organized crime."
Really? I was able to walk through Kolkata at 2am drunk off my arse for two weeks straight and never had a problem. I went to the Museum of Visionary Arts just once in Baltimore and had my car stolen by several members of the 'community', most of whom had nicer mobile phones and cars then I did.
But keep pretending it has nothing to do with the so-call 'culture' that exists in inner city America these days after 40 years of welfarism.
Really? I was able to walk through Kolkata at 2am drunk off my arse for two weeks straight and never had a problem. I went to the Museum of Visionary Arts just once in Baltimore and had my car stolen by several members of the 'community', most of whom had nicer mobile phones and cars then I did.
But keep pretending it has nothing to do with the so-call 'culture' that exists in inner city America these days after 40 years of welfarism.
100
@99: Really? A little research reveals that, surprisingly enough, the most lucrative crime in Kolkata isn't robbery or drug-running. It may interest you to know that India in general, and the cities in particular, are huge centers of cyber crime.
Economics is all it is. The crime that pays off the best will be the crime that people turn to.
Economics is all it is. The crime that pays off the best will be the crime that people turn to.
101
@Alleged, please learn how to cite your "facts" so so you can make a real argument, your anecdotes on stolen cars and trips to India aren't particularly useful for seeing what's really going on.
If you look at the poverty data venomlash provides for Baltimore, you might be able to guess at why the crime rate there is so high. 21% of the city is below the poverty line, and nearly 11% have an income below 50% the poverty line income. It's not just that poverty is so prevalent, the poverty is particularly intense (compare that to 5% of Seattleites making under half the poverty line income).
You bring up that West Virginia has lower crime stats than Baltimore, that's simply not true. Let's look at Charleston, so we can compare cities. Per thousand residents, there are 15.04 violent crimes in Charleston to Baltimore's 18.04. Overall, though, there are 91.53 crimes per thousand residents to Baltimore's 75.14. Looking more closely at each city's crime rates, a few other interesting things come out. The murder rate in Baltimore is seven times the national rate, and a little over half the national rate in Charleston. But there are 15.44 more rapes per hundred thousand residents in Charleston (37.09) than in Baltimore (21.65). Charleston even exceeds the rate of rape nationally (32.2). Aggravated assault is high in Baltimore (968.2 per 100K residents), but it's high in Charleston too (732.1 per 100K) (nationally it's 336.5 per 100K). Baltimore far outstrips Charleston when it comes to vehicle theft (982.2 to 443.2) and robbery (663.3 to 218.7), but Charleston takes the cake for larceny theft (5081.9 to 2894) and burglary (1423.2 to 1193.3) - both far exceed the national rates in these categories.
The differences between the crime in Charleston and Baltimore can pretty easily be explained by the difference in population density, Baltimore is a much more crowded place. It doesn't make sense to rob people in the street, steel cars, murder or assault people when there isn't another person for miles (figuratively speaking). Those things make much more sense when everyone is packed into the city like sardines. Your thesis that poor white people don't commit crime at a rate comparable to that of black people is pretty busted.
Oh, by the way, the crime rate in Kolkata is comparable to that of Baltimore, with 71 per 100K residents, which actually is much lower than the national rate of 167.7 per 100K. Crime is pretty high in India, India is pretty damn poor. You were basically in just as much danger in Kolkata as you were in Baltimore, you can take your anecdote and shove it.
Sources:
http://seattle.areaconnect.com/crime/com…
http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/md/balt…
http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/wv/char…
http://ncrb.nic.in/crime2004/cii-2004/CHAP1.pdf">http://replay.web.archive.org/2009032607… (Note that this is a PDF)
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If you look at the poverty data venomlash provides for Baltimore, you might be able to guess at why the crime rate there is so high. 21% of the city is below the poverty line, and nearly 11% have an income below 50% the poverty line income. It's not just that poverty is so prevalent, the poverty is particularly intense (compare that to 5% of Seattleites making under half the poverty line income).
You bring up that West Virginia has lower crime stats than Baltimore, that's simply not true. Let's look at Charleston, so we can compare cities. Per thousand residents, there are 15.04 violent crimes in Charleston to Baltimore's 18.04. Overall, though, there are 91.53 crimes per thousand residents to Baltimore's 75.14. Looking more closely at each city's crime rates, a few other interesting things come out. The murder rate in Baltimore is seven times the national rate, and a little over half the national rate in Charleston. But there are 15.44 more rapes per hundred thousand residents in Charleston (37.09) than in Baltimore (21.65). Charleston even exceeds the rate of rape nationally (32.2). Aggravated assault is high in Baltimore (968.2 per 100K residents), but it's high in Charleston too (732.1 per 100K) (nationally it's 336.5 per 100K). Baltimore far outstrips Charleston when it comes to vehicle theft (982.2 to 443.2) and robbery (663.3 to 218.7), but Charleston takes the cake for larceny theft (5081.9 to 2894) and burglary (1423.2 to 1193.3) - both far exceed the national rates in these categories.
The differences between the crime in Charleston and Baltimore can pretty easily be explained by the difference in population density, Baltimore is a much more crowded place. It doesn't make sense to rob people in the street, steel cars, murder or assault people when there isn't another person for miles (figuratively speaking). Those things make much more sense when everyone is packed into the city like sardines. Your thesis that poor white people don't commit crime at a rate comparable to that of black people is pretty busted.
Oh, by the way, the crime rate in Kolkata is comparable to that of Baltimore, with 71 per 100K residents, which actually is much lower than the national rate of 167.7 per 100K. Crime is pretty high in India, India is pretty damn poor. You were basically in just as much danger in Kolkata as you were in Baltimore, you can take your anecdote and shove it.
Sources:
http://seattle.areaconnect.com/crime/com…
http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/md/balt…
http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/wv/char…
http://ncrb.nic.in/crime2004/cii-2004/CHAP1.pdf">http://replay.web.archive.org/2009032607… (Note that this is a PDF)
102
I got the link wrong for the Indian crime stats, here is the correct link:
http://web.archive.org/jsp/Interstitial.…
I got the stats wrong, too (looking at them, they really didn't make sense). Between 2000 and 2004 the average crime rate in India was 526.36 per 100K. I am having some trouble determining what exactly the crime rate in Kolkata is, though it's very clearly lower than the national rate.
http://web.archive.org/jsp/Interstitial.…
I got the stats wrong, too (looking at them, they really didn't make sense). Between 2000 and 2004 the average crime rate in India was 526.36 per 100K. I am having some trouble determining what exactly the crime rate in Kolkata is, though it's very clearly lower than the national rate.
103
Ah, a bit of research shows that the original numbers are correct, except they are for per 1K, not 100K, the place I originally saw that made a transcription error.
104
Hey Anonymous/Alleged, I hear you and I really know where you're coming from. I blame random dark skinned people for all the things that go wrong in my life too. So much goes so wrong in this world, and it's soothing to know the fault lies squarely with them people that don't look like me.
105
14 of the 28 : 2008
12 of the 21 : 2009
8 of the 17 : 2010
Thus half is the portion of murders committed in Seattle by a group that makes up a very small small portion of Seattle.
12 of the 21 : 2009
8 of the 17 : 2010
Thus half is the portion of murders committed in Seattle by a group that makes up a very small small portion of Seattle.
106
@105, About 20% of black Seattleites are below the poverty line, about 7% of white Seattleites are below the poverty line. About 8% of Seattleites are black, while about 70% are white - blacks are hit by poverty much, much harder than whites, and harder than any other minority apart from Native Americans who comprise less than 1% of Seattleites.
I've already shown you a whole bunch of statistics that show how flimsy your thesis that 'blackness causes crime' is, and more than enough for us to hypothesize that poverty creates crime, I really see no purpose in ferreting out the stats that show how flimsy your belief that 'blackness causes murder' is. For fun, google which countries have the highest rates of homicide, and you'll see that countries in Latin America and Eastern Europe give the ones in Africa a run for their money. You're as likely to be killed in Ciudad Juarez in Mexico as you are in Baghdad. It's not black people that ties all these places together, it's poverty.
Where's the study, controlled for economic inequality, that shows black people are more likely to commit murder than any other group? It doesn't exist. I could show you study after study that show murder and other violent crimes are tied to poverty, and the most you can muster are the murder stats for Seattle. I can also tell you why it's useful to focus on the crime/poverty correlation: if we can lower poverty, we can lower crime. You have yet to tell us why it's useful to focus on any verifiably incidental crime/race correlation. The only function as I see it is to sow discord, distrust, and hate. I'm just going to go ahead and Godwin this thread now, because at this point we're kicking a dead horse, but if we accept your thesis as true and follow it to its natural conclusion, we're either firing up the ovens or reinstating the three-fifths rule.
Arbeit macht frei! motherfucker - and fuck you too, if you can afford an iphone to hide from all the scary people riding the bus.
More...
I've already shown you a whole bunch of statistics that show how flimsy your thesis that 'blackness causes crime' is, and more than enough for us to hypothesize that poverty creates crime, I really see no purpose in ferreting out the stats that show how flimsy your belief that 'blackness causes murder' is. For fun, google which countries have the highest rates of homicide, and you'll see that countries in Latin America and Eastern Europe give the ones in Africa a run for their money. You're as likely to be killed in Ciudad Juarez in Mexico as you are in Baghdad. It's not black people that ties all these places together, it's poverty.
Where's the study, controlled for economic inequality, that shows black people are more likely to commit murder than any other group? It doesn't exist. I could show you study after study that show murder and other violent crimes are tied to poverty, and the most you can muster are the murder stats for Seattle. I can also tell you why it's useful to focus on the crime/poverty correlation: if we can lower poverty, we can lower crime. You have yet to tell us why it's useful to focus on any verifiably incidental crime/race correlation. The only function as I see it is to sow discord, distrust, and hate. I'm just going to go ahead and Godwin this thread now, because at this point we're kicking a dead horse, but if we accept your thesis as true and follow it to its natural conclusion, we're either firing up the ovens or reinstating the three-fifths rule.
Arbeit macht frei! motherfucker - and fuck you too, if you can afford an iphone to hide from all the scary people riding the bus.
107
Next time you are getting attacked on the bus or the bus stop, just tell yourself it is just because they are poor, then. Maybe try telling them how " down with the struggle" you are and how you voted for Obama. See how effective that is.
110
"I blame random dark skinned people"
Not random at all, I can tell the difference between a thug and a respectable person. Here's a tutorial:
youtu.be/gwejDybX8oA
Not random at all, I can tell the difference between a thug and a respectable person. Here's a tutorial:
youtu.be/gwejDybX8oA
111
@107, Fuck yeah, I'm "down with the struggle". It runs in three generations of Greenberg blood and the message of human equality spreads every day. It's gonna take a hell of a lot more than getting my face smashed in to smash my faith in our common humanity and equality. The "struggle" is being won in the Developed world (though it is technically never "won"), and being fought for everywhere else. It's been nearly 50 years since King spoke "I have a dream", and the day that we judge people not by the color of their skin, or any other immutable fact of their creation, but by the content of their character looks not impossibly far away. What have your ideas achieved since that internecine snit back in the 1860s? What's that? A few lynchings? A couple Jim Crow laws? Birth of a Nation? Fa, I laugh at your impotent ideas. Your children's children will see you as the failure you are.
112
It is hilarious how all you athiest evolutionists (I'm one too) turn instantly into faith-based creationists when it comes to "equality".
113
To be fair to the trolls, a bit of digging on the internet shows that El Paso, Texas and Detroit, Michigan have similar rates of poverty but Detroit has a rate of violent crime equal to about 4 times that of El Paso and 20 times as many murders per capita. I can't help but wonder if the fact that poor people in El Paso tend to be of the non-African American variety has something to do with that discrepancy.
114
Isn't it funny how the two most "liberal" cities in the USA, Portland and Seattle, are also the two whitest cities in the USA?
116
"by the content of their character looks not impossibly far away"
So you oppose set asides, quotas, affirmative action and its latest rebirth as 'social justice' (as opposed to equal justice)?
You support the 2007 Ballard High School decision by the Supreme Court that forced the SPS to stop using race in school assignments?
Good for you!
So you oppose set asides, quotas, affirmative action and its latest rebirth as 'social justice' (as opposed to equal justice)?
You support the 2007 Ballard High School decision by the Supreme Court that forced the SPS to stop using race in school assignments?
Good for you!
117
@113, I did a quick check, the poverty rate in El Paso is 22.6%, while in Detroit it's 36.4%. That seems like a pretty significant difference. Also, 8% of El Paso is making half the poverty line income, while 18.5% of Detroit is making half the poverty line income. Not only is poverty in Detroit more widespread, it is fucking intense. I don't think it's unrealistic to suggest that violent crime is tied somehow to the intensity of poverty. Also the population density of Detroit is significantly higher than that of El Paso (5,142/sq mi to 2,446.7/sq mi). The tighter you pack people, the more volatile they can be.
Sources:
http://www.city-data.com/poverty/poverty…
http://www.city-data.com/poverty/poverty…
@112, Ha, creationist? I don't need to resort to faith to justify my position, I can look to science. Genetic research shows that there is about a .1% variation in genetic material between individuals, our differences are superficial. Race is a construct. You have yet to provide anything to justify your feelings about scary black people.
Source:
http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v36/n11…
Sources:
http://www.city-data.com/poverty/poverty…
http://www.city-data.com/poverty/poverty…
@112, Ha, creationist? I don't need to resort to faith to justify my position, I can look to science. Genetic research shows that there is about a .1% variation in genetic material between individuals, our differences are superficial. Race is a construct. You have yet to provide anything to justify your feelings about scary black people.
Source:
http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v36/n11…
118
"Race is a construct. You have yet to provide anything to justify your feelings about scary black people."
Its not about race, it's about a culture of drugs, promiscuity, welfare, single parenthood and lack of personal responsibility created, encouraged and financed by the loony left.
Its not about race, it's about a culture of drugs, promiscuity, welfare, single parenthood and lack of personal responsibility created, encouraged and financed by the loony left.
119
@116, You may have guessed that I have a fondness for the words of Martin Luther King Jr. Why don't we look at what he has to say about affirmative action:
Whenever the issue of compensatory treatment for the Negro is raised, some of our friends recoil in horror. The Negro should be granted equality, they agree, but he should ask nothing more. On the surface, this appears reasonable, but it is not realistic." -- 1964, Why We Can't Wait.
Although the terms desegregation and integration are used interchangeably, there is a great deal of difference between the two...Desegregation simply removes legal and social prohibitions. Integration is creative...more profound and far reaching than desegregation... Integration...is the welcome participation of Negroes into the total range of human activities...Desegregation is not enough; integration alone is consonant with our national purpose." -- "Ethical Demands for Integration" ,1963 p 118.
Reporter: Do you feel it's fair to request a multi-billion dollar program of preferential treatment for the Negro, or any other minority?
Dr. King: I do indeed...Within common law, we have ample precedents for special compensatory programs. ... America adopted a policy of special treatment for her millions of veterans...They could negotiate loans from banks to launch businesses. They could receive special points to place them ahead in competition for civil service jobs...There was no appreciable resentment of the preferential treatment being given to the special group. -- Interview,1965, p.367
Whenever the issue of compensatory treatment for the Negro is raised, some of our friends recoil in horror. The Negro should be granted equality, they agree, but he should ask nothing more. On the surface, this appears reasonable, but it is not realistic." -- 1964, Why We Can't Wait.
Although the terms desegregation and integration are used interchangeably, there is a great deal of difference between the two...Desegregation simply removes legal and social prohibitions. Integration is creative...more profound and far reaching than desegregation... Integration...is the welcome participation of Negroes into the total range of human activities...Desegregation is not enough; integration alone is consonant with our national purpose." -- "Ethical Demands for Integration" ,1963 p 118.
Reporter: Do you feel it's fair to request a multi-billion dollar program of preferential treatment for the Negro, or any other minority?
Dr. King: I do indeed...Within common law, we have ample precedents for special compensatory programs. ... America adopted a policy of special treatment for her millions of veterans...They could negotiate loans from banks to launch businesses. They could receive special points to place them ahead in competition for civil service jobs...There was no appreciable resentment of the preferential treatment being given to the special group. -- Interview,1965, p.367
121
Something tells me if we gave out 40 acres and a mule, on top of the trillions in welfare already spent in the past 40 years, it'd be traded for some rims, crack and a 50 Cent pimpin' mix.
Other solution might be to stop using 'acting white' as an epithet.
Other solution might be to stop using 'acting white' as an epithet.
122
@117, you creationist. The article you cited is out of date, 2004, and does not jibe with the latest findings of the Human Genome Project. Look up the article "Turning-point" at The Economist.
"Ten years after the reading of the human genome, humanity is about to confront its true nature"
"Genomics may reveal that humans really are brothers and sisters under the skin. The species is young, so there has been little time for differences to evolve. Politically, that would be good news. It may turn out, however, that some differences both between and within groups are quite marked. If those differences are in sensitive traits like personality or intelligence, real trouble could ensue.
People must be prepared for this possibility, and ready to resist the excesses of racialism, nationalism and eugenics that some are bound to propose in response. That will not be easy. The liberal answer is to respect people as individuals, regardless of the genetic hand that they have been dealt. Genetic knowledge, however awkward, does not change that."
"Ten years after the reading of the human genome, humanity is about to confront its true nature"
"Genomics may reveal that humans really are brothers and sisters under the skin. The species is young, so there has been little time for differences to evolve. Politically, that would be good news. It may turn out, however, that some differences both between and within groups are quite marked. If those differences are in sensitive traits like personality or intelligence, real trouble could ensue.
People must be prepared for this possibility, and ready to resist the excesses of racialism, nationalism and eugenics that some are bound to propose in response. That will not be easy. The liberal answer is to respect people as individuals, regardless of the genetic hand that they have been dealt. Genetic knowledge, however awkward, does not change that."
123
@Alleged Is the concept of providing some kind of empirical basis for your beliefs alien to you? Where do you come from that feelings are enough to justify anything more than what you have for lunch? "Something tells me" is not a useful metric for determining how to run a country, unless "something" is a reputable study after reputable study.
I repeat: citation please.
I repeat: citation please.
124
@120 So, did you agree with the 2007 Supreme Court case that the Seattle Public Schools could not use the color of people's skin to determine where they go to school?
125
@123 How come you ignore cited data that shows blacks have a propensity towards criminality? Or is only your data valid?
126
Haven't you heard? Planning ahead for the future is something that only racist whites do, due to their inherent "whiteness" and because they are "ice people". Didn't you go to Seattle Public Schools?
127
@122, The article you cite is not scientific, and does not make any claim that race determines anything about personality or intelligence. Furthermore it warns against the kind of racism you hold so dear should any such determinations ever be made. It also comments that "humans [may] really [be] brothers and sisters under the skin".
You have yet to offer anything useful for your POV.
You have yet to offer anything useful for your POV.
128
@117 Baltimore, Maryland is probably closer to El Paso as far as the economics go. Baltimore's murder rate is 17 times that of El Paso. Think about Newark, NJ or Washington, DC or New Orleans, LA. What do all these places have in common? Poverty certainly, but also large African American populations and astronomical murder rates. I agree with you that race is a social construct w/ little basis in biological science, but I don't think we can entirely discount cultural factors when trying to explain the large number of black people involved in violence and crime.
129
@125, Where is your data, which controlling for all other factors, shows blacks have a higher propensity for violence? I haven't cited it because I have never seen it.
@124, I'm a Portlander studying abroad, I have little interest in Seattle politics and beyond the tunnel, nil awareness. I have no knowledge of or opinion on whatever court case you're citing.
@124, I'm a Portlander studying abroad, I have little interest in Seattle politics and beyond the tunnel, nil awareness. I have no knowledge of or opinion on whatever court case you're citing.
130
@127 just keep telling yourself that, you creationist. All races are exactly the same! But celebrate diversity anyway! Maybe you can tell that to your black attackers next time and see how far that gets you.
131
"You have yet to offer anything useful for your POV"
So you don't believe crime stats? Such as the stats in Seattle that show that blacks, 8% of the population, commit over half the murders every year? Even if blacks have double the poverty rate, that doesn't even come close to explaining how 8% (actually only about 2% of the population if we're talking young black males) commit fully half of the murders in Seattle every year. In Baltimore, they commit 80% of the murders.
So you don't believe crime stats? Such as the stats in Seattle that show that blacks, 8% of the population, commit over half the murders every year? Even if blacks have double the poverty rate, that doesn't even come close to explaining how 8% (actually only about 2% of the population if we're talking young black males) commit fully half of the murders in Seattle every year. In Baltimore, they commit 80% of the murders.
133
I don't understand why, even though you folks recognize this dude is a troll, you have helped him take what was previously a thread about a transgendered woman and handed it to him as a symposium on whether black people are genetically inferior. He's a troll. There is no point you can prove to him. He's not listening, he is only cutting and pasting. Worse, he is the most dreadfully boring troll. I mean, come on.
Feh. Now I'm crabby.
Feh. Now I'm crabby.
134
And how come when I go to the ID (aka 'Chinatown') in Seattle, and see all those poor Vietnamese, Chinese, Filipino immigrants it's the blacks I have to worry about not the Asians?
135
@Ken, Baltimore is more comparable to El Paso in terms of poverty, but again, Baltimore is much more dense than El Paso (6,745.8/sq mi to 2,446.7/sq mi). I think this contributes to the difference. I wouldn't claim that poverty is the only contributing factor in crime, rather it is the one of the central factors intersecting to incite crime.
Culture is a big part of it too, but for Alleged, culture is a product of race. The history of blacks in America is far different from the history of any other ethno-racial group, and from the start the roles and manners of black people has been dictated by white people. Even today, the number of ways to be black and acceptable to the wider culture is highly limited. The "culture of drugs, promiscuity, welfare, single parenthood and lack of personal responsibility" Alleged associates with blacks for him is ultimately the Left's enabling of essentially "black" behavior, when in reality it is a product of centuries of oppression and a wider society which determines which roles and manners are acceptable for black people. This isn't to say that other groups don't face similar disenfranchisement, but that the disenfranchisement of blacks is an American institution, of which poverty is only one of the larger pillars.
Culture is a big part of it too, but for Alleged, culture is a product of race. The history of blacks in America is far different from the history of any other ethno-racial group, and from the start the roles and manners of black people has been dictated by white people. Even today, the number of ways to be black and acceptable to the wider culture is highly limited. The "culture of drugs, promiscuity, welfare, single parenthood and lack of personal responsibility" Alleged associates with blacks for him is ultimately the Left's enabling of essentially "black" behavior, when in reality it is a product of centuries of oppression and a wider society which determines which roles and manners are acceptable for black people. This isn't to say that other groups don't face similar disenfranchisement, but that the disenfranchisement of blacks is an American institution, of which poverty is only one of the larger pillars.
137
Shorter #133: nanny nanny boo boo, I can't hear you!
Gee isn't the Mcdonalds at 3rd and Pine and the surrounding sidewalk such a wonderful place to hang out? It is so awesome how many of the patrons enrich our boring white lives with their amazing vibrant diversity.
I remember a few months ago, on the very same couple of days that whining about Justice Sanders was all the rage here on slog, two blacks shot and killed two other blacks downtown in unrelated murders. Don't confuse "progressives" with facts.
Gee isn't the Mcdonalds at 3rd and Pine and the surrounding sidewalk such a wonderful place to hang out? It is so awesome how many of the patrons enrich our boring white lives with their amazing vibrant diversity.
I remember a few months ago, on the very same couple of days that whining about Justice Sanders was all the rage here on slog, two blacks shot and killed two other blacks downtown in unrelated murders. Don't confuse "progressives" with facts.
138
@135. Gee that's funny, white liberals like you are always going on and on about how wonderful urban density is here on slog.
139
"which roles and manners are acceptable for black people"
What, roles like the most powerful man on the Planet? Or secretary of state? Or chairman of the joint chiefs? Or the supreme court?
What, roles like the most powerful man on the Planet? Or secretary of state? Or chairman of the joint chiefs? Or the supreme court?
140
If race is "just a social construct" then why are so many modern pharmaceuticals targeted specifically for blacks? Why is race such a huge important factor when it comes to bone-marrow transplants???!?
142
@141 the one in my boring, non-"vibrant" whitey white town is perfectly safe, except for the food.
143
@135 All true, still I think misguided liberal programs have enabled bad behavior in the black community. From the '60s to the '90s America's welfare system was set up in a way that discouraged poor people from working and forming families. Family structure and commitment to work are weaker among black Americans for historical reasons, so these bad incentives had a disproportionate effect on blacks.
144
Can any of you members of the Faith-Based Progressive Orthodox Church answer this question?:
If race is "just a social construct", then why is race such a hugely important factor in bone-marrow transplants?
If race is "just a social construct", then why is race such a hugely important factor in bone-marrow transplants?
145
Violence on "African American Family Day" at the National Zoo? I am so shocked and completely surprised!
tinyurl.com/6ao5zdu
"16-year old arrested in National Zoo stabbing"
Then just after 3 p.m., chaos and confusion when a fight broke out near the concession area.
"The next thing I know, the altercation jumps out with a little kid, the boy runs behind another one and stabs him. They were fighting. One guy got knocked out," said zoo visitor Regina Jackson.
"The first thing we saw, there was a rush on the 7-Eleven. They pretty much pushed the owner out the door. The next thing you know, they ran across the street and apparently they’re in the zoo. The next thing we saw was a bunch of young people running through the zoo. Police or security are pretty much chasing these people throughout the zoo," said visitor Henry Marcinowski.
The fight caused zoo officials to tell visitors over the loudspeaker to leave the area. Police set up at the front entrance to escort visitors out and no one was allowed back inside.
"They were knocking over strollers and things like that, babies in the stroller," said Donetta Byrd.
"They were getting us out of here swiftly. People started running," said Regina Jackson.
Police say a teenager had been jumped by another group of young people. Witnesses say he was punched and kicked several times before one suspect pulled out a knife and stabbed him several times. Police also say the melee continued after the victim left the zoo.
"At some point, the stabbing victim left the grounds of the zoo and possibly could have encountered the same group where he was possibly stabbed again and then the suspect or suspects fled the scene," said D.C. Police Commander Michael Reese.
....
Easter Monday is traditionally African American Family Day at the National Zoo. Easter Monday has been a Washington-area multicultural tradition that spans more than 100 years. In 2000, there was a multiple shooting at the zoo during the same event.
More...
tinyurl.com/6ao5zdu
"16-year old arrested in National Zoo stabbing"
Then just after 3 p.m., chaos and confusion when a fight broke out near the concession area.
"The next thing I know, the altercation jumps out with a little kid, the boy runs behind another one and stabs him. They were fighting. One guy got knocked out," said zoo visitor Regina Jackson.
"The first thing we saw, there was a rush on the 7-Eleven. They pretty much pushed the owner out the door. The next thing you know, they ran across the street and apparently they’re in the zoo. The next thing we saw was a bunch of young people running through the zoo. Police or security are pretty much chasing these people throughout the zoo," said visitor Henry Marcinowski.
The fight caused zoo officials to tell visitors over the loudspeaker to leave the area. Police set up at the front entrance to escort visitors out and no one was allowed back inside.
"They were knocking over strollers and things like that, babies in the stroller," said Donetta Byrd.
"They were getting us out of here swiftly. People started running," said Regina Jackson.
Police say a teenager had been jumped by another group of young people. Witnesses say he was punched and kicked several times before one suspect pulled out a knife and stabbed him several times. Police also say the melee continued after the victim left the zoo.
"At some point, the stabbing victim left the grounds of the zoo and possibly could have encountered the same group where he was possibly stabbed again and then the suspect or suspects fled the scene," said D.C. Police Commander Michael Reese.
....
Easter Monday is traditionally African American Family Day at the National Zoo. Easter Monday has been a Washington-area multicultural tradition that spans more than 100 years. In 2000, there was a multiple shooting at the zoo during the same event.
146
@144, Wrong.
@145, You are having are hard time understanding what constitutes useful information. I could find you endless articles describing violence perpetrated by whites, and it would be no more proof that whites are inherently violent people than what you have presented here as proof that blacks are violent. All this proves is that you have gone and searched out an example of blacks being violent, and found what you were looking for. Do you really need someone to explain confirmation bias to you, and the difference between anecdotal and empirical evidence?
@145, You are having are hard time understanding what constitutes useful information. I could find you endless articles describing violence perpetrated by whites, and it would be no more proof that whites are inherently violent people than what you have presented here as proof that blacks are violent. All this proves is that you have gone and searched out an example of blacks being violent, and found what you were looking for. Do you really need someone to explain confirmation bias to you, and the difference between anecdotal and empirical evidence?
148
" I could find you endless articles describing violence perpetrated by whites"
Of you can. But if you did a search just in your home town, you'd find out that at least 50% of the crime and murder is committed by 8% of the population. So when you get on the bus in the Rainier Valley and a group of young black men or girls get on board, it would be smart to put your iPhone away. Get on a bus in Ballard and a group of white teens gets on board? No need.
This isn't racism, it's common sense.
Of you can. But if you did a search just in your home town, you'd find out that at least 50% of the crime and murder is committed by 8% of the population. So when you get on the bus in the Rainier Valley and a group of young black men or girls get on board, it would be smart to put your iPhone away. Get on a bus in Ballard and a group of white teens gets on board? No need.
This isn't racism, it's common sense.
149
@146. I didn't have to search at all, it is national news and it just happened two days ago.
You foolish creationist, regarding the race and bone marrow issue - your own link says this... did you even actually read it???? LOL:
"Some patients face a greater challenge in finding a suitable donor or cord blood unit than others. At a detailed level, some HLA types are more common than others. In addition, some types are found more often in some racial and ethnic groups than others. Because HLA types are inherited, your best chance of finding a suitable donor may be with someone of a similar racial or ethnic background. "
-------
Time Magazine says this:
http://tinyurl.com/29qvzzg
Bone Marrow Transplants: When Race Is an Issue
By Christopher Shay Thursday, Jun. 03, 2010
"...Devan would need a marrow transplant. The prospect of going through chemotherapy for a second time and needing a transplant is daunting to anyone, but it's especially harrowing if — like Devan — you're of mixed race. Multiracial patients often have an incredibly hard time finding life-saving marrow matches. When Devan, whose father is Caucasian and mother is part Indian, was first diagnosed with leukemia, his family did a search of the international marrow registry that contains over 14 million donors and came up empty. "
...
"Compared to organ transplants, bone marrow donations need to be even more genetically similar to their recipients. Though there are exceptions, the vast majority of successful matches take place between donors and patients of the same ethnic background. Since all the immune system's cells come from bone marrow, a transplant essentially introduces a new immune system to a person. Without genetic similarity between the donor and the patient, the new white blood cells will attack the host body."
....
Knowing that there weren't enough mixed race donors, Devan's parents did everything they could to raise awareness and get people — especially of mixed race — to sign up for a marrow registry."
You silly creationist!
More...
You foolish creationist, regarding the race and bone marrow issue - your own link says this... did you even actually read it???? LOL:
"Some patients face a greater challenge in finding a suitable donor or cord blood unit than others. At a detailed level, some HLA types are more common than others. In addition, some types are found more often in some racial and ethnic groups than others. Because HLA types are inherited, your best chance of finding a suitable donor may be with someone of a similar racial or ethnic background. "
-------
Time Magazine says this:
http://tinyurl.com/29qvzzg
Bone Marrow Transplants: When Race Is an Issue
By Christopher Shay Thursday, Jun. 03, 2010
"...Devan would need a marrow transplant. The prospect of going through chemotherapy for a second time and needing a transplant is daunting to anyone, but it's especially harrowing if — like Devan — you're of mixed race. Multiracial patients often have an incredibly hard time finding life-saving marrow matches. When Devan, whose father is Caucasian and mother is part Indian, was first diagnosed with leukemia, his family did a search of the international marrow registry that contains over 14 million donors and came up empty. "
...
"Compared to organ transplants, bone marrow donations need to be even more genetically similar to their recipients. Though there are exceptions, the vast majority of successful matches take place between donors and patients of the same ethnic background. Since all the immune system's cells come from bone marrow, a transplant essentially introduces a new immune system to a person. Without genetic similarity between the donor and the patient, the new white blood cells will attack the host body."
....
Knowing that there weren't enough mixed race donors, Devan's parents did everything they could to raise awareness and get people — especially of mixed race — to sign up for a marrow registry."
You silly creationist!
151
Okay, let me make another point- the city sucks all over. Black neighborhoods, white neighborhoods, it's all the same. I've seen white girls gang up on lone McDonald's patrons on 2 separate occassions, very similar to this video. Maybe they drug the food? Anyway, it's a depressing area. I don't think it's just poverty or racial tensions because I've since lived in cities since with both that weren't bad. It's just a bizarre perfect storm for hell. I only mentioned economic status because back home that was really the marker for violent areas ( low income city vs suburbs). I don't think it's true for all or even most areas. I also just thought it was hilarious that this is being called a black thug culture problem. Oh brother, take a trip out there and let me know how it goes. It's across the board in white areas too. It sounds downright naive to say that getting rid of a certain sub population would make the area better when in reality the area is full of vicious white people too. If you break it down by precinct white city neighborhoods have equally bad crime rates. I'm actually kind of pissed off by the suggestion that being in a white neighborhood means you have it better. Nope, it sucks all over.
So... I guess the point of me posting is to "defend" the omnipresent assholery that transcends race and gender there because the whole city is uniformly horrible. Baltimore: where black and white people will violently assault you in equal numbers for no reason. Almost touching if it weren't so screwed up. On a positive note, I'm so happy to see that Polis is fighting back and keeping calm about it. So happy that this media coverage is garnering her support.
So... I guess the point of me posting is to "defend" the omnipresent assholery that transcends race and gender there because the whole city is uniformly horrible. Baltimore: where black and white people will violently assault you in equal numbers for no reason. Almost touching if it weren't so screwed up. On a positive note, I'm so happy to see that Polis is fighting back and keeping calm about it. So happy that this media coverage is garnering her support.
152
@151 it is so interesting how you have absolutely no evidence to back up your assertions, while the New York Times and the Seattle PI and police reports all back up mine. Guess what blacks really do commit half the murders here in whitey white Seattle and none of your wishful thinking or absurd spin or unfounded assertions can change that.
153
@151 Can you find the white teens beating up people video because I can't. I can find dozens for black teens...even more if you search for videos on buses, trains, transit tunnels etc.
Now, I'm sure there are videos of white kids doing this shit, the laws of probability mean it's impossible not to have happened but for some reason, blacks seem to be winning the youtube asshole race.
Now, I'm sure there are videos of white kids doing this shit, the laws of probability mean it's impossible not to have happened but for some reason, blacks seem to be winning the youtube asshole race.
155
Once you are awake to reality it is almost impossible to go back to sleep. And you "progressives" call me "ignorant" when you don't have any clue about easily verifiable facts. What a joke LOL. Maybe you can try saying that I'm "derailing", isn't that the tactic that progressives use when they don't have any real FACTS or LOGIC to back up their naive faith-based religious fantasies? Ha ha ha!!!!!
156
Why do black men rape so much? According to USDOJ & FBI victim surveys, over 37000 (thirty seven thousand) white women are raped and/or sexually assaulted by black men every year in the USA. The annual white man on black woman rape/sex assault rate is less than 10 (ten). In south Africa, one in three black men admit to committing rape, usually multiple times, usually gang rape. Congo is described by the UN as having "the most horrific sexual violence in the world". Why do blacks commit such an astoundingly extreme amount of rape, wherever they are found in the world? Could it have something to do with their scientifically verified higher levels of testosterone and smaller cranial capacities?
158
Huh? The tuba Man's murderers were all black and they were all given minimum sentences by a progressive lesbian judge.
159
I don't get it...I don't get why this is your primary concern when you clearly don't even live in the city limits. if one of us plays devil's advocate and acknowledges your facts will you go away? will you let us in on how you bought a bunch of land and you want our help to round up all the troublemakers at the McDonalds on 3rd and Pine so we can bring them there and dispose of the problem? I am just failing to see an endgame here and it's sad because you are wasting your life, son.
actually, I don't give a shit. you are ratcheting up ad hits for this blog's advertisers in a way no one with any responsibilities could ever dream to, so post away, homes.
actually, I don't give a shit. you are ratcheting up ad hits for this blog's advertisers in a way no one with any responsibilities could ever dream to, so post away, homes.
160
@159
WAAAAAH WAAAH WAAAH your tears are delicious grow the fuck up and face the facts of reality nature and evolution you naive white religious kumbaya Pollyanna DoGooder dipshit. Apologize when your granny and daughter get raped in the turd world future that you did your best to help create.
WAAAAAH WAAAH WAAAH your tears are delicious grow the fuck up and face the facts of reality nature and evolution you naive white religious kumbaya Pollyanna DoGooder dipshit. Apologize when your granny and daughter get raped in the turd world future that you did your best to help create.
161
HBD HUMAN BIO DIVERSITY
HBD look it up you supposedly open minded naive religious faith based Orwellian so-called progressive white "liberals" who live in one of the whitest cities in the USA in some amazing coincidence for some strange reason you disingenuous hypocritica RELIGIOUS wimps
HBD look it up you supposedly open minded naive religious faith based Orwellian so-called progressive white "liberals" who live in one of the whitest cities in the USA in some amazing coincidence for some strange reason you disingenuous hypocritica RELIGIOUS wimps
163
The most hilarious part of this whole thread is how you silly naive impotent white Seattle liberals think bolding the word "ALLEGED" makes your silly reality-ignoring naive faith-based Creationist religious "argument" somehow carry more weight in your weak wimpy white minds.
164
Hey did anybody else ever notice that reality and nature and the animal and plant kingdoms and evolution are totally racist and hierarchical? Somehow none of that matters to the weak sheltered reality-ignoring wimp white minds of pathetic progressives who are in such sad and transparent and DESPERATE DENIAL.
166
@160-161,163-165: Would you like some dressing for your word salad? Thousand Island perhaps? Or maybe some Miracle Whip, which is something I understand White People Like?
167
Just a general response to the trolls. As a sometimes progressive libertard, I'm all for locking up bad guys, but I'm also in favor of improving society so that fewer people choose a life of crime. I don't think those two strategies are mutually exclusive.
168
What happened just a couple of days ago, my naive white libtards?
http://seattlecrime.com/2011/04/25/the-w…
http://tinyurl.com/63wpdgb
The Weekend Blotter Part 1: Man Shot At SoDo Nightclub
By Jonah Spangenthal-Lee
SPD:
On April 24th at approximately 1:51 a.m. officers responded to a shooting at a club in the 2900 block of 1st Avenue South. Preliminary investigation indicates that the adult male suspect had been attacked by a group of adult males outside the club. Club security subsequently broke up the crowd with pepper spray.
The suspect returned to his vehicle, a black 1990′s Chevy Caprice, and as he was leaving fired several shots at his attackers, striking one of them in the hip and foot. The suspect then fled northbound and remains at large.
The shooting victim was loaded into a car and transported to Harborview Medical Center by his friends. Upon arrival they dumped him at the door of the emergency room and left. Gang Unit detectives responded to Harborview and interviewed the victim.
The suspect is described as a black male in his early 20′s, 5’9″ to 5’11″, 175 lbs., hair in “cornrows”, and last seen wearing a black t-shirt and jeans.
Later in the morning officers located the suspect’s black Chevy Caprice in the Rainier Valley. The vehicle was impounded and taken to the evidence garage for processing.
This remains an active and on-going Gang Unit investigation.
http://seattlecrime.com/2011/04/25/the-w…
http://tinyurl.com/63wpdgb
The Weekend Blotter Part 1: Man Shot At SoDo Nightclub
By Jonah Spangenthal-Lee
SPD:
On April 24th at approximately 1:51 a.m. officers responded to a shooting at a club in the 2900 block of 1st Avenue South. Preliminary investigation indicates that the adult male suspect had been attacked by a group of adult males outside the club. Club security subsequently broke up the crowd with pepper spray.
The suspect returned to his vehicle, a black 1990′s Chevy Caprice, and as he was leaving fired several shots at his attackers, striking one of them in the hip and foot. The suspect then fled northbound and remains at large.
The shooting victim was loaded into a car and transported to Harborview Medical Center by his friends. Upon arrival they dumped him at the door of the emergency room and left. Gang Unit detectives responded to Harborview and interviewed the victim.
The suspect is described as a black male in his early 20′s, 5’9″ to 5’11″, 175 lbs., hair in “cornrows”, and last seen wearing a black t-shirt and jeans.
Later in the morning officers located the suspect’s black Chevy Caprice in the Rainier Valley. The vehicle was impounded and taken to the evidence garage for processing.
This remains an active and on-going Gang Unit investigation.
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172
I don't believe it! It's a setup! All black people are like Oprah and the Cosby show!... After all blacks were the victims of the same kinda violence at one point and time too... Surely they would understand firsthand what it’s like to be targeted for discrimination, violence and socially marginalized! NOT! F'ken human Rottweiler’s!
174
I presume that in 2061 the same 'slavery has irreparably damaged us' arguments will be trotted out to explain black failure? Can someone please explain why black illegitimacy and crime rates are stratospherically higher today than they were when Jim Crow ended?
Apparently just THINKING about it fifty years later is enough to make them misbehave worse than those who actually lived through it.
Apparently just THINKING about it fifty years later is enough to make them misbehave worse than those who actually lived through it.
175
As a white trans person who never pees without wondering if something like this could go down...and who has had their own unfortunate experiences with the religiousity in parts of the black community...I gotta say that the racism some folks have displayed after seeing this is really sad and horrible.
There is no "them"...there's just us, black and queer and other, out at the MickeyD's or otherwise trying to share an ever thinner margin. If we can't discuss something like this without resorting to talking about "them", WTF hope do we have of treating each other decently? Meh...
There is no "them"...there's just us, black and queer and other, out at the MickeyD's or otherwise trying to share an ever thinner margin. If we can't discuss something like this without resorting to talking about "them", WTF hope do we have of treating each other decently? Meh...
176
This gentleman didn't belong in the ladies restroom and should be arrested for it like any other man using the ladies room in a restaurant might be. The two girls who assaulted him should be charged with whatever law allows, which sounds like felony assault.
'Transgender' people should get the mental help they need to recognize biological reality so that they can live healthy and meaningful lives. We would feel no discomfort telling a person who thought himself a potato or a Lancia to get help. Why a failure to recognize your own gender shouldn't be treated similarly escapes me.
See, reality is easy when you aren't trying to distort it to justify your own perversions Savage.
'Transgender' people should get the mental help they need to recognize biological reality so that they can live healthy and meaningful lives. We would feel no discomfort telling a person who thought himself a potato or a Lancia to get help. Why a failure to recognize your own gender shouldn't be treated similarly escapes me.
See, reality is easy when you aren't trying to distort it to justify your own perversions Savage.
177
I never thought I would say anything like this, but thank you, Seattleblues, for returning this thread to the original topic, as mistaken as you are. Biological "reality" is empirically much more complex than xx/xy, and even where it is expressed as xx/xy, peoples' experience clearly varies widely. It hurts no one for someone to identify as different from their birth-assigned gender, and is no skin off anyone's nose to respect that. As a nation we legally respect an individual's right to change their gender, there's no reason they shouldn't be able to enter the spaces of the gender they identify as.
178
@177
Were people expressing only their own rights, you'd be correct. This young man dressing as a woman is entirely his business. The privacy rights of the female patrons of public restrooms arguably present a legitimate point at which his right to self expression stops.
Additionally, if a person dresses or behaves oddly and is treated oddly on account of it, it would seem to be his or her problem, not that of those treating them oddly.
Were people expressing only their own rights, you'd be correct. This young man dressing as a woman is entirely his business. The privacy rights of the female patrons of public restrooms arguably present a legitimate point at which his right to self expression stops.
Additionally, if a person dresses or behaves oddly and is treated oddly on account of it, it would seem to be his or her problem, not that of those treating them oddly.
179
@178, Except she wasn't violating any privacy rights of any patrons in public restrooms. Legally a woman? You get to legally use the women's restroom. In the eyes of the law, there theoretically is no difference between a trans person and a cis person (though in practice, the law is not evenly applied to trans people). The law allows trans men to marry cis women, and trans women to marry cis men, whatever their birth assigned gender was (though that may soon end in Texas).
If a person behaves oddly and is treated oddly on account of it, well that's life. It's not too much to ask that people don't treat that person like shit, though, for doing something that harms no one. And certainly harmless odd behavior is no reason to deny someone their legal rights (let alone brutally assault someone for exercising those rights).
If a person behaves oddly and is treated oddly on account of it, well that's life. It's not too much to ask that people don't treat that person like shit, though, for doing something that harms no one. And certainly harmless odd behavior is no reason to deny someone their legal rights (let alone brutally assault someone for exercising those rights).
180
@179
He was as a man violating the right to personal privacy of any woman using that restroom. A woman walking into the mens room violates the rights to privacy of the males in the room. And you can call him 'she' all you like. The physical and actual reality is that 'she' is a he. Birth assigned gender has a more simple expression- you're a dude or a gal based on the standard issue plumbing. Period.
If the law calls him she, the law is wrong. Calling my dog a goat don't make her a goat, anymore than calling my wristwatch a speedboat makes it one.
I'm unfamiliar with the expression 'cis,' so can't comment on your statements about it or her or him or whatever.
Nor have I ever, not once, advocated for or excused violence against others on any pretext, whether gender or political or otherwise. But if you walk into a men's room in a little black dress and stand at the urinal, expect some reaction. If you walk into the ladies room and pull out your little friend, expect some irritation. You have the legal right to be eccentric, but not the right for others to approve of your oddness.
He was as a man violating the right to personal privacy of any woman using that restroom. A woman walking into the mens room violates the rights to privacy of the males in the room. And you can call him 'she' all you like. The physical and actual reality is that 'she' is a he. Birth assigned gender has a more simple expression- you're a dude or a gal based on the standard issue plumbing. Period.
If the law calls him she, the law is wrong. Calling my dog a goat don't make her a goat, anymore than calling my wristwatch a speedboat makes it one.
I'm unfamiliar with the expression 'cis,' so can't comment on your statements about it or her or him or whatever.
Nor have I ever, not once, advocated for or excused violence against others on any pretext, whether gender or political or otherwise. But if you walk into a men's room in a little black dress and stand at the urinal, expect some reaction. If you walk into the ladies room and pull out your little friend, expect some irritation. You have the legal right to be eccentric, but not the right for others to approve of your oddness.
181
@180 My attitude toward transvestites and transsexuals is that if it is important to them that they be treated as the opposite of their biological gender why not treat them that way? If being treated like a goat made your dog happy and didn't require much effort on your part wouldn't you do that SB? Besides, Asian lady boys are hot.
182
@181
".....why not treat them that way?"
Socially? No reason at all.
But when we legally call a man a female, we set up the conditions for incidents like the one Mr. Savage details here. As with most things, I defer to societal mores unless they conflict with basic justice, particularly as expressed in our constitution. And as with most things, where a person chooses their status I decline to accept that that choice imposes obligations on others.
Again, no one, no matter how odd, is exempt from the protection of the laws regarding their physical safety just because their behavior is odd or socially unacceptable. The young girls who attacked this woman should face whatever the law prescribes for their behavior. The victim isn't the point here, the reprehensible behavior of these girls is.
I'm as unfamiliar with the term 'lady boy' as I am with' cis.' But I'm guessing I'm happier that way, so that's all right. Though I'll meet you halfway and agree that Asian ladies are often very attractive.
".....why not treat them that way?"
Socially? No reason at all.
But when we legally call a man a female, we set up the conditions for incidents like the one Mr. Savage details here. As with most things, I defer to societal mores unless they conflict with basic justice, particularly as expressed in our constitution. And as with most things, where a person chooses their status I decline to accept that that choice imposes obligations on others.
Again, no one, no matter how odd, is exempt from the protection of the laws regarding their physical safety just because their behavior is odd or socially unacceptable. The young girls who attacked this woman should face whatever the law prescribes for their behavior. The victim isn't the point here, the reprehensible behavior of these girls is.
I'm as unfamiliar with the term 'lady boy' as I am with' cis.' But I'm guessing I'm happier that way, so that's all right. Though I'll meet you halfway and agree that Asian ladies are often very attractive.
183
@180, Cis means that your gender identity agrees with your genitals. Someone who has transitioned to male can marry a cis woman, and someone who has transitioned to female can marry a cis man. As far as what physical reality dictates, again, it's not as simple as what xx/xy would seem to suggest, as people come with all sorts of different sets of x and y chromosomes that don't make gender so clear, and even when it is xx or xy, it isn't always so simple as male/female. The definitions of male and female you seem to be working off of do not reflect scientific reality. How exactly letting someone identify as a gender other than the one assigned at birth violates anyone's privacy when they go into the restroom of their identified gender is not clear to me. What threat is there in a man with a vagina and a woman with a penis? There's more to gender than genitals, after all.
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Hating People Doesn't Make Them Thinner by Jen Graves
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Los Angeles Gay Bar Bans Bachelorette Parties Until Marriage Equality Is Attained by David Schmader
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Fill in the Blank by Grant Brissey
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This Reminds Me of the Great Calculator Scare of the Late '70s/Early '80s by David Schmader
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The Sunday Morning News by Unpaid Intern
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Idiot Tries to Defend Bigoted Anti-Gay-Marriage Preacher on Anderson Cooper by Paul Constant
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Six Moms with Too Much Time on Their Hands and a Shitty Website Decide to Fight Gay Superheroes by Paul Constant
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The Saturday Morning News by Unpaid Intern
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Former Sen. Alan Simpson (R-WY) Says Members of His Party Have Rocks for Brains by Charles Mudede
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What the Hell Is Wrong With Seattle's Pride Parade? by Dominic Holden
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