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News & ArtsFriday, April 8, 2011
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: Cougar or Unicorn?
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 4:19 PM
Here's the deal: Mom just spilled the beans regarding her new boyfriend. Dude is 27! That's three years younger than me! She has been seeing him for 10 months but until today had not told me or my brother, I presume out of fear of a bad reaction on our part.
The thing is, I'm not entirely sure how I feel about this. On one hand, mom is a wispy, youngish, 50-year-old woman/gypsy fashion priestess who can do as she pleases, and I'm her adult son who has no business judging her. I'm well past the age where infantile jealousy should be playing a part in my reaction, right? And after seeing her in one failed relationship after another, I should be only interested in her happiness. On the other hand, the whole situation makes me deeply uncomfortable, on multiple levels.
First, the guy is younger than me by three years. I don't know how to expand upon this other than to just repeat it over and over: the guy is younger than me by three years.
Secondly, she's had relationships with younger men before, but usually during very unstable periods of her life. When I was just finishing high school, she was struggling with addiction and there was a 21-year-old blues band bass player shacking up with us. A few years after that, a 26-year-old con-man who stole her life's savings. While none of these guys were old enough to be her son, they were all closer to my age than hers.
Third, she seems to swing from one extreme to the other, in relationships either with men old enough to be her father, or young enough to warrant the cougar moniker.
I'm not sure what my issue is here, Dan, but I'd like your help. When I was younger, her relationships with younger men bothered me to the point that I managed to get myself all messed up in the head, and, throughout my early twenties, many of my own relationships were severely dysfunctional. I don't feel anywhere that uncomfortable with this, but it does dredge up some old, weird emotions. I guess I'm not really even asking for advice, just your opinion. I know cougars are cool nowadays, and love conquers all, and age is just a number, but are there certain circumstances under which I'm allowed to be a little freaked out by this? What's the damned protocol?
A Cougars Eldest Son
My response after the jump.
················
First, cougars aren't cool—cougars are a myth. I read it in the Daily News. Technically speaking, ACES, sociologically speaking, your mother doesn't exist. Heavy.
Second, just as your mother is allowed to do what she likes—old men, young men, blues men, con men—nothing in the damned protocol says that you're not allowed to have feelings about what and who your mother does. And it sounds like you have some old, unresolved and/or unexpressed feelings about the chaos your mother's love life visited on your childhood. So why not tell her something like this: "Hey, mom, I'm glad you're with someone you like, and I'm glad you're happy, and score one for all the fifty-something women out there whose husbands left them for twenty-something bimbos. But I gotta say that your new romance dredges up some unhappy memories for me. Your boyfriend isn't responsible for what happened decades ago, I realize, and there's nothing you can do about the old days, and I don't think your intent was to created chaos and grief for your kids. But your love life was messy, it impacted me negatively, and, well, I just wanted to get that off my chest."
If your mother has any sense—and that's a big "if," I realize—she'll apologize and you can guys commiserate about the string of assholes she dated back in the day. Her apology won't rewrite the past, of course, and it won't magically make you feel any more comfortable about your mom's present. But it will carve your issues about your mother's love life into two separate, smaller, and more manageable chunks: residual anger about your mom's past boyfriends, freakiness about her current boyfriend.
And look on the bright side: you don't have to live with her current boyfriend, her next boyfriend, or the boyfriend after that.
3
I can totally relate, ACES! My dad did this, although he didn't live with us. His girlfriends got progressively younger as he got older, and by the time I was in college, his girlfriend was a grad student. It was definitely weird, and made me mad, although I didn't question why I felt that way at the time. Looking back, I wonder if it has to do with some psychological oedipal/electra thing, where we want to feel safe around our parents, and don't like the idea that they could find someone our age attractive/desirable, because then they could feel that way about us--hence the ew/ick/squicked out feelings we get. Just a thought. If it's any consolation, by the time you are an ancient person of 46 like me, you won't care anymore, you'll just roll your eyes...
4
It always cracks me up when Canuck says she's "ancient" at 46. Trust me, hon, you've got a ways to go yet.
5
I thought it was Dan (or maybe it was somebody else) that used the "rule of thumb" - "Half +7" as in half the age difference + 7 years for a reasonable age difference in dating.
So, if she's 50, the boyfriend shouldn't be younger then 32 (50/2 + 7 = 32).
I always thought that was a good rule to live by.
So, if she's 50, the boyfriend shouldn't be younger then 32 (50/2 + 7 = 32).
I always thought that was a good rule to live by.
6
Yeah, I think it's some primal caveman issue deep in the brain. If someone not in my family wants to date someone 20 or 30 years younger, I say go for it. Have a good time. If they make each other happy, I'm totally okay. As long as it's legal, I have no problem with it.
But if one of my parents started dating someone younger than me, it would totally give me hives. I have no logical explanation for it, and I am fully aware that it conflicts with my normal belief set. I suspect Canuck might be onto something, though I have no evidence to support the notion.
I'd probably just shut up and learn to live with it. I know it is my own issues that are weirded out about the idea. But then I don't have the childhood history that ACES has.
[PS to Canuck: if you are ancient at 46, I fear what that makes me. Please never say that again.]
But if one of my parents started dating someone younger than me, it would totally give me hives. I have no logical explanation for it, and I am fully aware that it conflicts with my normal belief set. I suspect Canuck might be onto something, though I have no evidence to support the notion.
I'd probably just shut up and learn to live with it. I know it is my own issues that are weirded out about the idea. But then I don't have the childhood history that ACES has.
[PS to Canuck: if you are ancient at 46, I fear what that makes me. Please never say that again.]
7
Maybe it's just because I'm 51, and sometimes actually still manage to attract favorable attention, but my immediate impulse is to tell sonnyboy that, yeah, he's entitled to his feelings, but he's not entitled to tell Mom about it and spoil her fun. Any more than Mom would be entitled to tell him she didn't like his girlfriend. I imagine he'd tell Mom to mind her own fucking business if she did so, and I hope she does the same to him if he pipes up about this.
Mind your own business, son. It's not like she's likely to present you with a little brother. When it's Dad dating the trophy girlfriend, one always has to worry about the whole "second family" thing, but that's probably not in the cards here, so settle.
Mind your own business, son. It's not like she's likely to present you with a little brother. When it's Dad dating the trophy girlfriend, one always has to worry about the whole "second family" thing, but that's probably not in the cards here, so settle.
8
It seems like the real issue is the destructive influence of mother's short-lived relationships had throughout her son's upbringing. That said, no parent is perfect. Nevertheless, I wouldn't blame him should he not want to remain in any way an important player in his mother's life.
9
Sorry, sorry...46 isn't ancient at all, what was I thinking? It is like a spring lamb, frolicking in the clover....(much better..)
12
I agree with the LW -- his mom's BF is just not age-appropriate. If it's just a fling, fine -- you go, girl! But if it becomes some kind of long-term thing ... Given her issues with men in the past, the mom is a serious candidate for therapy IMO. And I'm not trying to be a Debbie Downer -- my mom tends to go for guys who are literally old enough to be her father, and I had to tell my dad in college that he could not date my friends. So I know where the LW is coming from.
13
I don't think you're wrong for feeling like you do but it sounds like your mom has always prioritized her own fun over giving you a stable upbringing.
She sounds unempathetic but if it would make you feel better to (tactfully and with few expectations) bring it up I would.
She sounds unempathetic but if it would make you feel better to (tactfully and with few expectations) bring it up I would.
15
It is awfully hard to let someone you care about be themselves, and not judge when they have never demonstrated any good judgment of their own. When that bad judgment has had a decisive impact on your own life, you tend to have serious feelings about it.
As a person whose mother fucked up my childhood with her shitty mate choices, I can tell you it's an odd mix of feelings. Resentment that she wasn't a good parent and resentment that I feel I have to be her parent and protect her from the asshats who hurt her feelings and drain her pocketbook. I can only imagine how much more complicated it would be if the newest idiot was younger than me.
If the LW can't get over it, he should get some therapy. Mommy dearest isn't going to change. I would try out the conversation about his feelings, but with no expectations. Some mothers aren't necessarily moms.
As a person whose mother fucked up my childhood with her shitty mate choices, I can tell you it's an odd mix of feelings. Resentment that she wasn't a good parent and resentment that I feel I have to be her parent and protect her from the asshats who hurt her feelings and drain her pocketbook. I can only imagine how much more complicated it would be if the newest idiot was younger than me.
If the LW can't get over it, he should get some therapy. Mommy dearest isn't going to change. I would try out the conversation about his feelings, but with no expectations. Some mothers aren't necessarily moms.
19
Mom is a shithead. She obviously has a bad track record with relationships - and that means ALL of them, especially with her son. Perhaps this one is now some clean, pure love, but unlikely: she's done this before.
And do you think a woman who gave her life savings to a con man was capable of properly dealing with the emotional wrestling match of child rearing? No way. She failed to really help her son to figure out how to be emotionally mature, so now he's mad when she lives out another shining example of her dumbshitheadness. Tell her whatever you want, just don't expect her to get it now for the first time in her life. She'll give you the same raft of excuses that you see among the other posts. All logical, sure, but all blind to the fact that she screwed up not just her whole life but much of her son's, too.
And do you think a woman who gave her life savings to a con man was capable of properly dealing with the emotional wrestling match of child rearing? No way. She failed to really help her son to figure out how to be emotionally mature, so now he's mad when she lives out another shining example of her dumbshitheadness. Tell her whatever you want, just don't expect her to get it now for the first time in her life. She'll give you the same raft of excuses that you see among the other posts. All logical, sure, but all blind to the fact that she screwed up not just her whole life but much of her son's, too.
20
Half plus seven gets you a seventeen year old when you're twenty, but half plus five gets you a fifteen year old when you're twenty.
And do we also go double minus seven?
And do we also go double minus seven?
22
@20: it's minus seven, then double.
I agree with the people suggesting that ACES should consider therapy. Not because his feelings are bad or wrong, though. Instead, because she's never going to change and he needs to figure out how to live without giving her bad choices inordinate power over his emotional state.
I agree with the people suggesting that ACES should consider therapy. Not because his feelings are bad or wrong, though. Instead, because she's never going to change and he needs to figure out how to live without giving her bad choices inordinate power over his emotional state.
23
@20
I think the math only gets reasonable when you are above a certain age. If the result is less than 18 then go with 18. Otherwise I would go with [full age - 7]. If you are under 18 then stick to people the same age.
I think the math only gets reasonable when you are above a certain age. If the result is less than 18 then go with 18. Otherwise I would go with [full age - 7]. If you are under 18 then stick to people the same age.
24
@22
I completely agree. The mom has her own set of issues that the son can't expect to change. He's much better off seeking therapy (make sure not to choose an asshat therapist). I understand the concern for your mom, but worrying and interfering will only drive you crazier. Get on with your own life and start working on your own healthier relationships.
I completely agree. The mom has her own set of issues that the son can't expect to change. He's much better off seeking therapy (make sure not to choose an asshat therapist). I understand the concern for your mom, but worrying and interfering will only drive you crazier. Get on with your own life and start working on your own healthier relationships.
25
I've lived through both my parents' disastrous dating choices, including my father's marriage (when I was 15) to someone only slightly older than I. LW, you have my sincere empathy and sympathy. I don't have a perfect protocol for this. I think you're allowed to tell the parent, once, that this particular dating choice makes you uncomfortable. After that, you get to celebrate the wonderful fact that you don't live there anymore! No more addiction in your house! You don't have to wonder if the blues player finished off the shampoo or watch your college savings get handed over to the junior con man. For a long time I was really, really angry that my parents weren't (and still are not) very good at being responsible adults. I'm older than you, and I still feel angry sometimes.
To a large extent, though, I've distanced myself from them and their dating choices, maintaining sort of a cordial "this too shall pass" attitude. Having a spouse and a child of my own has helped with this. Much of my energy goes into my own family, and I pay it forward--and take my hideous revenge, in a sense--by making sane choices for my own life. I married a good man and I do my level best to be a responsible parent to our kid. I try to run a low-drama shop. Benignly shrugging in your mother's general direction and getting on with your own stuff might be helpful to you, too.
To a large extent, though, I've distanced myself from them and their dating choices, maintaining sort of a cordial "this too shall pass" attitude. Having a spouse and a child of my own has helped with this. Much of my energy goes into my own family, and I pay it forward--and take my hideous revenge, in a sense--by making sane choices for my own life. I married a good man and I do my level best to be a responsible parent to our kid. I try to run a low-drama shop. Benignly shrugging in your mother's general direction and getting on with your own stuff might be helpful to you, too.
26
@23 it starts being valid when you're 13 (you can date within the range 13.5-12 at that age)
if you run the numbers for an 18-year-old it says your range is 16-22. In many (most?) states an 18 and 16 year-old can get together and have sex and that's not considered statutory rape
equations like this give narrower ranges when the numbers are small, when you get "above a certain age" they just start giving ridiculously wide results. For instance, the range for a 40-year-old is 27 to 66, which is a spread of almost 30 years you could bounce between, jumping from grad school to an AARP meeting when looking to pick up your dates
if you run the numbers for an 18-year-old it says your range is 16-22. In many (most?) states an 18 and 16 year-old can get together and have sex and that's not considered statutory rape
equations like this give narrower ranges when the numbers are small, when you get "above a certain age" they just start giving ridiculously wide results. For instance, the range for a 40-year-old is 27 to 66, which is a spread of almost 30 years you could bounce between, jumping from grad school to an AARP meeting when looking to pick up your dates
27
@26, I disagree with your "ridiculously wide" characterization. In fact, when I was 40, I was dating a 27-year-old. Things get a lot more loose as you get older.
28
@26
I'm not sure whether you totally missed my point. I agree that 27 to 66 is a ridiculous range for a 40 year old. By my method you get 33 to 47 which I still say is reasonable. I am 47 and wouldn't consider someone younger than 40. I don't see any good reason for someone under 18 to not stick to people the same age and I see lots of risk in deviating from that.
I'm not sure whether you totally missed my point. I agree that 27 to 66 is a ridiculous range for a 40 year old. By my method you get 33 to 47 which I still say is reasonable. I am 47 and wouldn't consider someone younger than 40. I don't see any good reason for someone under 18 to not stick to people the same age and I see lots of risk in deviating from that.
29
Nope. I'm with Fifty-Two-Eighty on that one. A 27 with a 40 or a 40 w/ 66 are on the wide end of age difference, but possibly fine relationships for those involved. For instance one could reasonably expect anyone in the 27-66 range to have something of an established career/life-path and be on this side of retirement--broadly in relatable stages of life.
30
I'm with Geni. So much bruhaha over a woman's choice of mate. Can't say I'm surprised. "Settle" y'all.
31
What I said the other day about Mr. Savage's advice being the opposite of spiritually empty most of the time? Hello most of the time.
32
The width of the range is an irrelevant number. You aren't dating a range, you are dating a person. Someone who is 27 is (usually, if just barely) mature enough to relate to a 40 year old, and someone who is 40 is (unquestionably) mature enough to relate to a 66-year-old.
33
Amazing how sexism and orientationism is called out consistently but ageism isn't. It's absolutely no one else's business--including your adult childrens'--how old your date/mate is.
34
Can I just say how much I absolutely fucking hate the term "ageism"? Here's a newsflash: AGE MATTERS. Not just because of the paradigmatic differences between two people of different generations (I cannot imagine dating someone who wasn't in the 'internet generation,' for instance) but because of things like fertility and career prospects.
True, not every 20 year old is too immature to date a 45 year old. Not every 20 year old wants kids and not every 20 year old is 5 years away from a secure career. But ~most~ are.
My boy and I are 9 years apart and the amount of life experience I have compared to him is enormous. I'm a single mother, divorced, had numerous partners/relationships. He was 21 when we met and I was his only girlfriend. It's been a struggle because the place I'm at in life--grad school, ready to settle down--isn't the place he was at when we met (we've since grown together). I can only imagine how much more complicated it would be if the gap was widened to 15 or 20+ years.
True, not all people are looking for a partner. Cougar mom might just be into it for the sex with a young stud (more power to her, if so). But, as far are relationships go, age matters. So lets stop pretending like saying that is an offense comparable to misogyny or racism. It's not.
True, not every 20 year old is too immature to date a 45 year old. Not every 20 year old wants kids and not every 20 year old is 5 years away from a secure career. But ~most~ are.
My boy and I are 9 years apart and the amount of life experience I have compared to him is enormous. I'm a single mother, divorced, had numerous partners/relationships. He was 21 when we met and I was his only girlfriend. It's been a struggle because the place I'm at in life--grad school, ready to settle down--isn't the place he was at when we met (we've since grown together). I can only imagine how much more complicated it would be if the gap was widened to 15 or 20+ years.
True, not all people are looking for a partner. Cougar mom might just be into it for the sex with a young stud (more power to her, if so). But, as far are relationships go, age matters. So lets stop pretending like saying that is an offense comparable to misogyny or racism. It's not.
35
BTW--I'm not saying that "ageism" doesn't exist in things like employment. I'm objecting to it's use in the context of dating.
36
@33, perhaps the LW objecting to the age of the woman's boyfriend but most people on the board are talking about the woman's track record in relationships (as described by the LW). and from the tone of the letter it seems that the LW is only objecting because the mother's poor choices in her relationships had such a traumatic impact during his/her childhood.
38
I think the LW needs therapy to sort out what he's really upset about. I think if he deals with the baggage from having a mom who exposed him to inappropriate instability, her current dating choices will not be such an issue for him. Or at least he'll learn to ignore them.
My parents' dating lives are terrifying to me. I steer clear and keep my opinions to myself. Though I wouldn't be opposed to either one dating someone my age. Hell, my father WAS dating someone my age (and he's actually quite old to be my father - people always thought he was my grandpa), but he decided she wasn't attractive enough for him. I refrained from pointing out that she probably wasn't all that thrilled with his own wrinkled and decrepit self either.
My parents' dating lives are terrifying to me. I steer clear and keep my opinions to myself. Though I wouldn't be opposed to either one dating someone my age. Hell, my father WAS dating someone my age (and he's actually quite old to be my father - people always thought he was my grandpa), but he decided she wasn't attractive enough for him. I refrained from pointing out that she probably wasn't all that thrilled with his own wrinkled and decrepit self either.
39
Keep in mind, y'all, that he appeared to be most upset about her man being three years younger than he is. My take on it is that he's especially squicked out about the possibility of seeing himself as his own mom's boy toy (if she can have sex with him, that means she could potentially be attracted to ME, etc.). My friends whose dads have found women younger than them have said precisely this. I think he already does separate the crappy results of her choices during his childhood from the current ickiness of her relationship. But it's the "younger than me" thing that's got him going. Of course he should go to therapy to sort out the early stuff. But he should also state his boundaries very clearly with his mom: "Good for you, mom, that you're happy. I'm not comfortable starting a relationship with this guy as his potential 'son,' but feel free to enjoy the ride."
40
@28 - it's totally reasonable for you to stick with +/- 7 years, but I think that's too narrow a range to start criticizing other people who venture beyond it. I think "half +7" is a better guideline if people really want to get into tut-tutting over other people's relationships.
Better still is Dan's campsite rule. That's where your range makes sense to me. If we're basically the same age (+/- 7 years), neither of us has a special duty to the other. But if the age difference is larger, then the older person should be planning how to leave the younger person in good shape.
@37 - so, does half+5 get you into her pants, where half+7 leaves you high and dry? Rules are only made to be broken, they say. (Of course, you should never believe what "they" say.)
Better still is Dan's campsite rule. That's where your range makes sense to me. If we're basically the same age (+/- 7 years), neither of us has a special duty to the other. But if the age difference is larger, then the older person should be planning how to leave the younger person in good shape.
@37 - so, does half+5 get you into her pants, where half+7 leaves you high and dry? Rules are only made to be broken, they say. (Of course, you should never believe what "they" say.)
41
@40: Let me put it this way - based on the sample I've encountered, women seem to be pretty much all grown up by age 26.
42
@41 huh. Not my experience. You don't see women changing their mind about career, children, etc. as they get into their mid thirties? And then again, re sex, in their 40s?
43
@41: I mean "all grown up" in the sense that they've reached the point where they seem like women rather than children to me. Obviously, individuals differ, and there is a lot more maturing and self-discovery that (hopefully) happens after that.
Also, I'm just talking about a minimum age, not an ideal age. It's hard to find women my age who like to party the way I do - they exist, but they tend to be out numbered on the dance floor by women in their 20s and early 30s. And the the younger ones tend to be much more assertive in their flirting than their relatively demure older counterparts. So, props to the younger ladies for that.
Yet it's much easier and natural for me to relate to women my age. My most recent (innocent) crush was older than me, probably by about 5 years I'm guessing.
Also, I'm just talking about a minimum age, not an ideal age. It's hard to find women my age who like to party the way I do - they exist, but they tend to be out numbered on the dance floor by women in their 20s and early 30s. And the the younger ones tend to be much more assertive in their flirting than their relatively demure older counterparts. So, props to the younger ladies for that.
Yet it's much easier and natural for me to relate to women my age. My most recent (innocent) crush was older than me, probably by about 5 years I'm guessing.
45
I think the core point here is that people get freaked out when the opposite-sex parent starts getting busy with a plausible stand-in for themselves. The incest-lite scenario is more commonly perceived when dad starts dating one of his 20-something daughter's peers, but I'm sure the feelings are the same with the genders flipped.
I was in college when my dad started dating (and then married) a woman five years older than me. From my perspective today, that's pretty close, but at age 20, the difference in life status of somebody five years older, the opposite gender, and out of school seemed pretty significant. Also, there was not even the slightest hint that she or my dad considered her to be my stepmother.
30 years later, this is one of the most stable marriages I am aware of in my family, going back a couple of generations.
I was in college when my dad started dating (and then married) a woman five years older than me. From my perspective today, that's pretty close, but at age 20, the difference in life status of somebody five years older, the opposite gender, and out of school seemed pretty significant. Also, there was not even the slightest hint that she or my dad considered her to be my stepmother.
30 years later, this is one of the most stable marriages I am aware of in my family, going back a couple of generations.
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