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Tuesday, March 29, 2011

City Attorney Pete Holmes Sues to Keep Citizen Referendum Off Ballot

Posted by on Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 12:46 PM

As I reported he would, City Attorney Pete Holmes, who ran on a platform to support the will of the people above the interests of elected officials, filed a complaint in King County Superior Court today to keep a citizen referendum on the deep-bore tunnel off the August ballot.

"I declare that proposed R-1 may not be placed on the ballot because it is beyond the scope of local referendum power," Holmes writes in his complaint that seeks a declaratory judgment (.pdf).

In dispute is whether this ordinance is exempt from a citizen vote (the council contends this is an "administrative act," not subject to a vote, because the ordinance follows through on resolutions and ordinances the council approved in 2009 and 2010). That may or may not hold water; the city charter says "any ordinance" is subject to referendum.

This morning, campaign leaders of Protect Seattle Now submitted 28,929 signatures—that’s 12,426 more than required to qualify for the primary election. Meanwhile, anti-tunnel Initiative 101 is on the brink of submitting enough signatures to make the ballot, too. And Elway Research, a local polling firm, reported yesterday that 55 percent of Seattle voters says we should vote on the tunnel, while only 40 percent say we shouldn’t.

Holmes is acting, at least in part, in the interest of the Seattle City Council, which has maneuvered over the past couple weeks to block a public vote on the referendum. His willingness to oppose a public vote in the interest appears to stand at odds with his campaign rhetoric.

"It’s time for a City Attorney who insists that our elected officials’ priorities match our own,” his campaign website says about former City Attorney Tom Carr. "Too often the interests of the people take a back seat in the City Attorney's office."

"The people of Seattle are the clients," he said repeatedly when running for reelection. "I'll put the people of Seattle first as your city attorney," he said in a campaign ad. His campaign added, "Pete Holmes will be a City Attorney that will represent the people of Seattle."

A case schedule says a trial is set for September 2012; I have an email into Holmes's office asking what happens to the tunnel ordinance in the interim. The City Charter says: "...the filing of such referendum petition ... shall operate to suspend the taking effect of the same, or any further action thereon ..."

Holmes lays out his decision in a lengthy legal essay after the jump.

Declaratory Judgment Action on Referendum Petition

This morning the City Clerk’s Office received an estimated 28,929 signatures in support of a voter referendum on Ordinance No. 123542. This ordinance approves three agreements between the City of Seattle and the State of Washington regarding the design and construction of a deep bore tunnel to replace the Alaskan Way Viaduct. Seattle’s governing body—the City Council and the Mayor—is responsible for enacting City ordinances, subject to the initiative and referendum powers. As City Attorney, I don’t vote on or veto ordinances, and I am personally neutral regarding the ultimate choice for replacing the viaduct. My obligations as City Attorney are to ensure that the City complies with the law and to look out for the best interests of Seattle and its citizens. To that end, I have filed a Complaint for Declaratory Judgment in King County Superior Court to determine whether Ordinance No. 123542 is subject to Seattle’s municipal referendum power. Since this issue is complicated, controversial and important, I want to explain what we’re doing, and why.

Nature of the Referendum Power

The Seattle Charter creates a referendum power, meaning that most—but not all—City ordinances can be subject to a referendum vote. If a valid referendum petition has sufficient signatures, the challenged ordinance cannot go into effect until after a vote upholding it. The present referendum would accordingly delay the effective date of Ordinance No 123542 until after the August primary—even if the ordinance is ultimately approved. Some limits on the City’s referendum power are spelled out in the Charter, while others are found in Washington State’s case law. Two well-established limits by the courts include (1) the rule that the local government “referendum power extends only to matters legislative in character and not to merely administrative acts,” e.g., Citizens for Financially Responsible Government v. City of Spokane, 99 Wn.2d 339, 347, 662 P.2d 845 (1983), and (2) the rule that powers delegated specifically to a local jurisdiction’s governing body are not subject to the local referendum power, e.g., City of Sequim v. Malkasian, 157 Wn.2d 251, 265, 138 P.3d 943, 951 (2006). Both rules are included in the Complaint and addressed below.

Administrative Acts are not Subject to Referendum

City legislative bodies can take both administrative and legislative actions. “Administrative” in this sense doesn’t mean the same as “administrative” rules enacted by an executive agency as opposed to the Legislature. Similarly, not all actions taken by “legislative bodies” are “legislative” as contemplated by the rule on referendums. The Washington Supreme Court has distinguished between the two types of actions by explaining that a power “is legislative in its nature if it prescribes a new policy or plan; whereas, it is administrative in its nature if it merely pursues a plan already adopted by the legislative body itself, or some power superior to it.” Citizens, 99 Wn.2d at 347 (quoting 5 E. McQuillin, Municipal Corporations § 16.55 (3d rev. ed 1981)).

With this definition in mind, consider that Ordinance No. 123542 is actually the third law passed regarding the proposed deep bore tunnel project:

The Legislature passed the first law in early 2009, RCW 47.01.402. That law did not make a final decision to build the tunnel; rather, it directed the State to “take the necessary steps to expedite the environmental review and design processes to replace the Alaskan Way viaduct with a deep bore tunnel under First Avenue from the vicinity of the sports stadiums in Seattle to Aurora Avenue north of the Battery Street tunnel.” That state law also contains some additional restrictions on the tunnel project, funding sources and limitations, and the infamous (but in my view unenforceable) cost overrun language.
In October 2009, the City Council enacted Ordinance 123133, authorizing execution of a Memorandum of Agreement that “outlines the responsibilities of both the City and State and expectations about the role of each in the implementation and funding of the numerous [Alaskan Way Viaduct and Seawall Replacement] Program elements.” That Memorandum of Agreement authorized the City and State to negotiate agreements to implement RCW 47.01.402(1) and Ordinance 123133. Ordinance 123133 also declared that “[i]t is the City’s policy that the Alaskan Way Viaduct and Seawall Replacement…Program Bored Tunnel Alternative…is the preferred solution for replacing the existing Alaskan Way Viaduct.”
After October 2009, the City and State negotiated three agreements—two covering utilities and one covering other aspects of the project—that provide further details regarding the State’s and City’s rights and obligations during design and construction. Ordinance 123542—the subject of the present referendum—constitutes the City’s acceptance of those three agreements.
It is important to note that no final decision has been made to proceed with the deep bore tunnel project. The state and federal Environmental Policy Acts (SEPA and NEPA) do not allow that decision to be made until after the final environmental impact statement (FEIS) is issued and considered. At this point, the tunnel is still legally a “preferred alternative,” and we’re still in what’s called the “preliminary design” phase. All of the agreements that go beyond preliminary design work—including the State’s agreement with its contractor and our three agreements with the State—are contingent upon the tunnel being finally selected following consideration of the FEIS and issuance of a “notice to proceed.” This is explained in Section 2.3 of each of our agreements.

Based on my reading of the law, the history of this project, and these agreements, on balance I believe Ordinance 123542 is more likely administrative than legislative. By accepting these three agreements, the ordinance does not “prescribe[] a new policy or plan”; “it merely pursues a plan already adopted by the legislative body itself [i.e., the City Council], or some power superior to it [i.e., the state legislature].” The broad policy here—establishing the tunnel as the preferred alternative for replacing the viaduct—was set more than 16 months ago by the ordinance the City Council enacted in October 2009 and, before that, the state law from early 2009. This year’s ordinance—and the agreements it accepts—adds a great deal of detail to how the City and the State plan to go about building the tunnel if it’s selected following the FEIS, but it doesn’t change the basic policy decision that the tunnel is the City’s preferred alternative. The tunnel was the preferred alternative at the end of 2009, and it will remain the preferred alternative after our three agreements go into effect.

Decisions Delegated to the Governing Body Cannot Be Decided by Referendum

As discussed, administrative acts are not subject to the local referendum power. Moreover, even legislative acts, if based on a local government power delegated directly to the governing body of a local jurisdiction, cannot legally be decided by a voter referendum. Local governments only have the powers delegated to them by the State. Most of those powers are delegated to local governments generally, but some are delegated specifically to the “governing body,” “legislative body,” or “legislative authority” of a local jurisdiction. Under state law, powers delegated like this may only be exercised by the City Council (subject to a veto and override) and are not subject to the initiative or referendum powers even if our charter or city law says they are. See., e.g., Malkasian, 157 Wn.2d at 261. Some parts of the City-State agreements at issue fall within powers delegated specifically to our governing body by RCW Title 47—the power to transfer City land to the State in connection with a state highway project.

Declaratory Relief Will Reduce Uncertainty and Save Time and Money

In Philadelphia II v. Gregoire, 128 Wn.2d 707, 911 P.2d 389 (1996), our state supreme court said the attorney general should seek a declaratory judgment from a court if he or she believes that an initiative is outside the scope of the State’s initiative power. I read this as directing me to do the same when I believe that a proposed referendum is outside the scope of the City’s referendum power. That’s where we are: Either the ordinance is administrative or within a sphere of authority delegated by the State to our governing body, the referendum can’t go forward, and the agreements are in effect, or the ordinance is legislative and not within a sphere delegated to our governing body, the referendum should go on the ballot, and the agreements can’t go into effect until after a vote. I think the former is more likely, and a declaratory judgment now will spare the expense of a campaign overturned post-election. If the court disagrees, I’ll support putting the referendum on the ballot as long as King County Elections confirms there are enough valid signatures.

This is just a summary of the administrative versus legislative and direct delegation legal issues. There is a significant body of case law on these issues, which will be further addressed when the City briefs the court next month. In the meantime, I’ve included a list of what I view as the most relevant cases at the end of this statement. I encourage anyone who is interested in this issue to read them and learn more about this area of state law.

There are several additional questions to address:

1. Named Defendants. The named defendants in our declaratory judgment action are (1) Protect Seattle Now, (2) Let’s Move Forward, (3) the Washington Department of Transportation, (4) Scot Brannon, Protect Seattle Now’s treasurer who signed the letter submitting the referendum petition, (5) Andrew Paxton, the Protect Seattle Now chair who signed the receipt for submittal of the petitions to the Clerk, and (6) Phil Lloyd, Let’s Move Forward’s secretary/treasurer. This isn’t intended to stage this lawsuit as “us vs. them”; it’s because declaratory judgment law requires us to bring everyone with a direct interest in this issue into the litigation. Protect Seattle Now and Let’s Move Forward have both registered with Seattle’s Ethics and Elections Commission as committees intending to advocate for and against the referendum; Brannon, Paxton and Lloyd are their official representatives; and WSDOT has an interest here because it’s the other party to the three contracts that are dependent upon whether our ordinance is referable. Everyone will have a chance to make their case to the court. If any other parties believe they have an interest warranting involvement in our legal action, they may also seek to intervene.

2. Timing of Declaratory Judgment Action. I refrained from intervening sooner in order to avoid interfering with the referendum signature gathering process. The Charter gives referendum supporters a very short period of time to gather signatures. While I don’t think this ordinance is subject to the City’s referendum power, the referendum supporters only had one shot to gather the required number of signatures, and I wanted them to have the chance to do that without interference before I asked a judge to determine whether state law allows a public vote.

3. Effect of Successful Referendum. Since a referendum is only as broad as the subject ordinance, this would just be a referendum on three specific City-State agreements. It’s not at all clear what would happen if a referendum stopped the three agreements—we could see anything from the State building the tunnel on its own to a movement towards a viaduct rebuild to a resurrection of surface-transit. If a court rules that the referendum can go on the ballot, and if the voters reject the three City-State agreements—two big “ifs”—we don’t know how the State would respond. Keep in mind that not all tunnel opponents agree on what should replace the viaduct. Some support a rebuilt viaduct, and others support surface-transit, so it’s hard to say how anyone in City or State government should or would interpret a “no” vote on the tunnel agreements. And if there’s discussion of another advisory ballot, I think it would be significantly more useful if it included all options, preferably giving supporters of one specific viaduct replacement option the opportunity to state their second choices.

Finally, I want to be clear that my goal is to get this issue in front of a judge as quickly as possible so we can get an answer as quickly as possible. I’ll support any proposals by the other parties to expedite this action as long as it gives everyone enough time to prepare legal briefs.

******

Administrative/legislative cases:

City of Port Angeles v. Our Water-Our Choice, 170 Wn.2d 1, 7, 239 P.3d 589, 592 (2010)
Bidwell v. City of Bellevue, 65 Wn. App. 43, 45, 827 P.2d 339, rev. denied 119 Wn.2d 1023 (1992)
Heider v. City of Seattle, 100 Wn.2d 874, 675 P.2d 597 (1984)
Citizens for Financially Responsible Government v. City of Spokane, 99 Wn.2d 339, 347, 662 P.2d 845 (1983)
Seattle Bldg. & Constr. Trades Council v. City of Seattle, 94 Wn.2d 740, 620 P.2d 82 (1980)
Leonard v. Bothell, 87 Wn.2d 847, 557 P.2d 1306 (1976)
Ruano v. Spellman, 81 Wn.2d 820, 505 P.2d 447 (1973)

Direct delegation cases:

City of Port Angeles v. Our Water-Our Choice!, 145 Wn. App. 869, 882, 188 P.3d 533, 539 (2008), aff’d 170 Wn.2d 1, 239 P.3d 589, (2010)
City of Sequim v. Malkasian, 157 Wn.2d 251, 265, 138 P.3d 943, 951 (2006)
Whatcom County v. Brisbane, 125 Wn.2d 345, 884 P.2d 1326 (1994)
Seattle Bldg. & Constr. Trades Council v. City of Seattle, 94 Wn.2d 740, 620 P.2d 82 (1980)

Process case:

Philadelphia II v. Gregoire, 128 Wn.2d 707, 911 P.2d 389 (1996)

 

Comments (37) RSS

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1

Is The Stranger about to take up the cry: "Bring back Tom Carr!!"
Posted by Edmund Burke on March 29, 2011 at 12:49 PM
gloomy gus 2
u r framing so harrrrd.
Posted by gloomy gus on March 29, 2011 at 12:50 PM
Joe Szilagyi 3
So it begins. Is there any reason to assume this won't be appealed and re-appealed and re-appealed again and again until all sides exhaust all options? Meanwhile, the tunnel WILL be at a standstill with not a single drill to earth until the legal process is resolved. Why?

If the digging starts, one side will have no purpose to their case and the courts typically don't do that until all avenues and appeal routes are exhausted. That's where fun things like injunctions come up. So, until one side loses--that's it. The tunnel is now in development hell. Protect Seattle Now and SCAT just need to appeal all the way up to and including the Federal level if possible. Keep the ball rolling.

Thanks, Pete Holmes!

Well played, people. Well played.
Posted by Joe Szilagyi http://www.joeszilagyi.com on March 29, 2011 at 12:53 PM
Will in Seattle 4
So we are just Serfs to the non-Citizen Billionaires and Millionaires then.

... good to know ...
Posted by Will in Seattle http://www.facebook.com/WillSeattle on March 29, 2011 at 12:57 PM
Will in Seattle 5
@3 for the insightful Inside One Doll Is Another Doll puzzle win.
Posted by Will in Seattle http://www.facebook.com/WillSeattle on March 29, 2011 at 12:58 PM
Aaron 6
@3: Glad you're not my lawyer.
Posted by Aaron on March 29, 2011 at 12:59 PM
Aaron 7
@3: @6 (cont.): Which is to say it isn't going to go down that way. Watch, you'll learn something.
Posted by Aaron on March 29, 2011 at 1:01 PM
Joe Szilagyi 8
@6 does Richard Conlin have the ability to supersede injunctions and court orders now too with a wave of his mighty pen? Because if those things happen, that's that. The state already said that every delay adds cost. All that has to happen now is to bleed out the nonexistent budget.

Oh, and finish those pesky Federal EISs and Federal right of ways.
Posted by Joe Szilagyi http://www.joeszilagyi.com on March 29, 2011 at 1:04 PM
9
I guess you have been too busy to report on the new Elway poll on the Mayor's approval rating, eh, Dominic? Or are you just taking a long time to figure out how best to spin it?
Posted by ian on March 29, 2011 at 1:04 PM
10
If I ran the show here, they'd have repaired the existing viaduct a long time ago. But I don't run the show. I don't get everything I want. Sometimes I have to settle for half a loaf. That's the tunnel. It pains me to say it, because it would have made sooooooooo much more sense to repair the viaduct.

But god damn it, the city needs to git 'er done. The referendum is ridiculous. It's a state project, not a city one. I'm with the city attorney on this.
Posted by Mister G on March 29, 2011 at 1:07 PM
11
p.s.: The so-called "surface option" is an insult cooked up by 20-somethings who are pissed off because they can't afford cars, and bicyclista dreamers. It would just kill the city.
Posted by Mister G on March 29, 2011 at 1:09 PM
12
this Pete Holmes guy is a joke, everything he does is a bad move

voting for literally anyone but him next round
Posted by Swearengen on March 29, 2011 at 1:10 PM
13
Pete Holmes was very strongly endorsed by the Stranger :-)
Posted by ian on March 29, 2011 at 1:10 PM
Supreme Ruler Of The Universe 14

See, you think the Tea Party is crazy when they say that the Government is a foreign power.
Posted by Supreme Ruler Of The Universe http://yrihf.com on March 29, 2011 at 1:17 PM
Will in Seattle 15
@8 for the No Budget For Both 520 and the Insane Tunnel insight Second Place win.

@14 for the Oh God We Live In A Dictatorship Worse Than Libya for the Third Place win.

Seattle Citizens for the epic loss of rights, since we're just Serfs.
Posted by Will in Seattle http://www.facebook.com/WillSeattle on March 29, 2011 at 1:23 PM
16
When Conlin spoke against O'Brien's attempt to have the council put a referendum on the ballot, one of his arguments was that the people would have an opportunity to do so themselves through the Protect Seattle Now campaign. Now that the campaign has been successful, it seems he's asked Holmes to find a way to keep it off the ballot.

See 59:23 - 59:50 in http://www.seattlechannel.org/videos/vid…
Posted by Politics as Unusual on March 29, 2011 at 1:34 PM
Joe Szilagyi 17
So who's getting bribed to see the tunnel get dug?
Posted by Joe Szilagyi http://www.joeszilagyi.com on March 29, 2011 at 1:41 PM
18
There would be a lawsuit anyway at some point with the referendum, might as well get it on now. Conlin needs to remember that if the courts kill the referendum the whole crowd that was pissed off about the stadium vote will be back in full force looking for scalps and his will due as well as anyones. At this point about the only way the pro referendum people lose is if it goes to a vote and is voted down. Otherwise they either stop the tunnel or seriously damage the political careers of the pro-tunnel politicians.
Posted by ratcityreprobate on March 29, 2011 at 1:47 PM
19
Keep bleating, Dom. It'll only serve to underscore how far off base you've managed to take this paper.
Posted by dak7e on March 29, 2011 at 1:56 PM
kk in seattle 20
Sloggers are so hilarious, but sometimes you do have to translate into English.

"Will of the people" = "What I want"

"Politicians who vote against what I want" = "Bribed"

"Mayor McGinn" = "So fine we don't need no damned legislative or judicial branches"
Posted by kk in seattle on March 29, 2011 at 1:56 PM
Will in Seattle 21
@17 follow the money. And the post elected careers of the incumbents.
Posted by Will in Seattle http://www.facebook.com/WillSeattle on March 29, 2011 at 1:58 PM
22
Ya know - all this procedural whining, all this hand wringing about the "right way forward", all of it is crap in the eyes of 80% of the voters. What will decide this is one very simple thing: can Seattle voters really be stuck with a significant bill? Of course I know what the Stranger thinks, but I'm hearing people say that it wouldn't even be legal. It'd certainly be political suicide for the democratic party. As much fun as it is to beat up on us, we're still 2/3rds of the vote.

So I want to hear - does Seattle really need to worry about cost overruns? Exactly how would it be legal to charge a locality for a state road project? Further, how would it not be political suicide? Who in the current democratic leadership would you see spearheading an effort to collect money from Seattle voters? What kind of arguments would you see them using?

Finally - and I'm just doing this for clarification purposes. Can we not agree that the money currently allocated for the tunnel WILL NOT be going to whatever pet project Seattle wants instead? In other words, it's not fungible. Maybe, if we're lucky, it'll go to another Seattle project. But hell, if I were the state legislature and I just had my hand slapped back, I might start looking for other places to put my money.
Posted by dak7e on March 29, 2011 at 2:10 PM
23
Well, I'm a property-tax paying citizen of this city who supports his action, so he *is* representing my interests. What's your point again, Dominic?
Posted by serotonein on March 29, 2011 at 2:32 PM
Will in Seattle 24
@22 you mean like the Western Approach to the 520 bridge that currently is mostly unfunded?

So, why is that a bad thing?
Posted by Will in Seattle http://www.facebook.com/WillSeattle on March 29, 2011 at 2:34 PM
25
And we know it'll go to 520 because...
Posted by dak7e on March 29, 2011 at 2:36 PM
26
#22 - There is a lot of misinformation about that amendment. The city itself, or even the tax payers, are not on the hook for cost overruns. The amendment states that Seattle property owners who benefit directly from the new tunnel will have to pay the cost overruns -- a rather limited group of people, although the amendment doesn't specify how they would determine who has benefited. It sounds ridiculous on the face of it and I can't imagine it would be enforceable.
Posted by ian on March 29, 2011 at 2:41 PM
27
Honestly, Dom, Baconcat et al - this is a real question. If you had a realistic plan for diverting this tunnel money into a surface plan (or really, any other concrete plan), you'd have my vote. The problem is, quite obviously, Seattle likes all the other options even less than they like the tunnel option. So what are the odds that the state will actually spend the money as you're indicating? Why give Seattle any money at all if they don't even know what the hell they want (and probably never will)?
Posted by dak7e on March 29, 2011 at 3:06 PM
Will in Seattle 28
@26 which we all know to be untrue. Even the legislators admitted it when asked.
Posted by Will in Seattle http://www.facebook.com/WillSeattle on March 29, 2011 at 3:07 PM
Will in Seattle 29
@27 even your own polling shows that Seattle voters prefer a Viaduct more than a Tunnel. Which means it is not a popular option.

A free tunnel? Sure. But it isn't free - it literally has a $10 roundtrip toll to use it and it probably will result in inevitable cost overruns that will be paid for by Seattle citizens - homeowner or renter - to the tune of $10,000 per household in extra taxes.

Suddenly support drops like a stone. People don't want that.
Posted by Will in Seattle http://www.facebook.com/WillSeattle on March 29, 2011 at 3:10 PM
kk in seattle 30
Interesting inquiry, ian @26. I guess, before the Internet, most people would have to rely on someone like Will in Seattle to provide them with information regarding legislative provisions. But now, we can actually find and read the source material ourselves. Chapter 458, Laws of 2009 provides in part as follows:

The state's contribution shall not exceed two billion four hundred million dollars. If costs exceed two billion four hundred million dollars, no more than four hundred million of the additional costs shall be financed with toll revenue. Any costs in excess of two billion eight hundred million dollars shall be borne by property owners in the Seattle area who benefit from replacement of the existing viaduct with the deep bore tunnel.


Amazingly enough, and despite thousands of (virtual) Slog column inches to the contrary, there is no requirement that Seattle taxpayers pay for cost overruns. Rather, those cost overruns are to be borne by property owners who benefit from the project. As the P-I reported:

The cost-overrun provision specifically says that "any costs in excess of $2.8 billion must be borne by property owners in the Seattle area who benefit from replacing the existing viaduct with the tunnel" (which likely would mean a Local Improvement District in which there is an assessment on property values that increase from a new open waterfront).


This means assessments in the form of a local improvement district, similar to the way half the cost of the South Lake Union Trolley was financed. In fact, it is the "billionaires" that Will is always frothing on about who are on the hook. Even Josh Feit in Publicola noted the irony. Sad to see that those who remain behind at the Stranger cannot recognize the irony as well.

But the real irony is this: by virtue of our State Constitution, the gas tax money and tolls that would go for the tunnel cannot be used for transit. If the City went with the surface/transit option, we would not get any of the $2.4 billion in gas taxes and $400 million in tolls for that solution. We couldn't (except maybe to pay for new painted stripes on I-5). THAT money would have to come out of our general fund, decimating the City's ability to fund social services.

And for those who gripe that we don't spend enough on transit, well, in the portion of King County that is served by Sound Transit, 0.9% of the sales tax goes to Metro for transit and 0.9% goes to Sound Transit. There were $40 billion in retail taxable sales in King County in 2009. 1.8% of that is $720 million--just for 2009. That is a shitpile of money. That doesn't include Sound Transit's car tab and rental car taxes (~$70 million per year). Or any operating (farebox) revenues. I challenge anyone to find a community that pays more of its personal income to support transit.

We already have a transit and a freight tunnel through downtown Seattle. The new tunnel will accommodate buses. At some point we will probably restrict at least one of the lanes in one of the directions during rush hours to carpool/transit use, or a HOT lane. (After all, when the freeways were originally built, no one ever even thought of a carpool/transit lane.)

The State is not going to amend the constitution so we can spend gas tax money on transit. So the real choice is tunnel or nothing. Now decide.
More...
Posted by kk in seattle on March 29, 2011 at 3:38 PM
Free Lunch 31
@22 - The idea that the funds are not fungible is ridiculous.

If the tunnel plan is cancelled - what? - the state will just wash its hands and walk away because its feelings are hurt - and meanwhile let its infrastructure collapse? No - they'll go back to the drawing board and come up with another terrible plan, because that's their job.

One way or another, the viaduct must be replaced. The state would be remiss if it refused to do so simply out of spite for having its favored plan rejected.
Posted by Free Lunch on March 29, 2011 at 4:00 PM
Will in Seattle 32
@31 oh come on, the money is gone.

Remember they said if we killed the Roads and Transit measure we'd never get light rail funding again?

And what happened ... oh ... wait ...
Posted by Will in Seattle http://www.facebook.com/WillSeattle on March 29, 2011 at 4:02 PM
kk in seattle 33
One way or another, the viaduct must be replaced. The state would be remiss if it refused to do so simply out of spite for having its favored plan rejected.


@31: You are incorrect. Whether or not the state comes back with another proposal, it obviously takes only 17,000 signatures (or, as the Stranger would say, "the will of the people") to hold up anything, so there is no guarantee whatsoever that the viaduct will be replaced, spite or no.
Posted by kk in seattle on March 29, 2011 at 4:12 PM
Will in Seattle 34
@33 but isn't that the moral equivalent of just tearing down the damaged viaduct?

Legally, they have to do that due to risk. They also have to restore the adjacent roads to functionality.

I mean, we act as if there are only three choices for the 3 part DEIS (we only completed part 1, there are 2 more parts) and the 3 mandatory federal EPA hearings. In fact, we started this process with 3 different options to replace the Viaduct - 1 surface highway, 2 elevated viaduct rebuild, 3 cut and cover tunnel. The Deeply Borrowed Tunnel wasn't even the third option.

What we get out the other end might just be the removal of the damaged Viaduct, and further study for what replacement is needed, while a SeaWall replacement goes in.
Posted by Will in Seattle http://www.facebook.com/WillSeattle on March 29, 2011 at 5:34 PM
35
#34's comment shows (as if we didn't know) what this is all about: Fuck up downtown so bad that no one other than the Critical Massholes will go there. BTW, I hope you don't work in a club or restaurant or store there, because the bicyclistas, well, they's poor. Which means so are you.
Posted by Mister G on March 29, 2011 at 10:05 PM
Baconcat 36
"No, you can't vote on this" is probably not a good thing to say in an election year.

Just a hunch.
Posted by Baconcat on March 29, 2011 at 11:42 PM
Will in Seattle 37
@36 for the Democracy is Terrorism says Council win.
Posted by Will in Seattle http://www.facebook.com/WillSeattle on March 30, 2011 at 2:24 AM

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