Slog
News & ArtsFriday, March 11, 2011
Panic
The China Japan Syndrome
Posted by Goldy on Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 10:40 PM
You know all that talk recently about reviving the United States' dormant nuclear power industry? Um, this might put a damper on it:
Reactors at two Japanese power plants can no longer cool radioactive substances, a government official said Saturday, adding that a small leak had been detected at one of the facilities.
Atomic material has seeped out of one of the Fukushima Daiichi plant's five nuclear reactors, about 160 miles (260 kilometers) north of Tokyo, said Kazuo Kodama, a spokesman for Japan's nuclear regulatory agency.
[...] This comes amid Kyodo's reports, citing the same Japanese agency, that radiation levels were 1,000 times above normal in the the control room of the "No. 1" reactor at one of the facilities.
Japanese authorities insist that there is no immediate health threat, at the same time they have expanded the evacuation zone to a six mile radius around each of the two damaged reactors.
1
These look like old school, 3 mile; Chernobyl style reactors:
Fukushima I – 1 BWR March 26, 1971 460 MW
Fukushima I – 2 BWR July 18, 1974 784 MW
Fukushima I – 3 BWR March 27, 1976 784 MW
Fukushima I – 4 BWR October 12, 1978 784 MW
Fukushima I – 5 BWR April 18, 1978 784 MW
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_I…
(Modern nukes have passive cooling systems -- that is, a big tank of water on top )
Fukushima I – 1 BWR March 26, 1971 460 MW
Fukushima I – 2 BWR July 18, 1974 784 MW
Fukushima I – 3 BWR March 27, 1976 784 MW
Fukushima I – 4 BWR October 12, 1978 784 MW
Fukushima I – 5 BWR April 18, 1978 784 MW
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_I…
(Modern nukes have passive cooling systems -- that is, a big tank of water on top )
2
Anybody have the figures on how many nuclear reactors there are in Japan, and how many of them are causing any problems?
Anybody have the figures on the effects of coal mining and burning?
Just curious.
Anybody have the figures on the effects of coal mining and burning?
Just curious.
3
And this is the problem with nuclear power: Catastrophic results when things go wrong. As horrible as this earthquake has been, there is now the very real possibility that things will soon be worse. I'm thinking if the Japanese can't figure out contingency plans that actually work, then the rest of us don't stand a chance. There is no conventional fuel that doesn't damage the environment, no alternative fuel that is wholly reliable. Nuclear power, nuclear weapons...weren't we marching against these things almost 30 years ago?
4
Here's the reality: there are tradeoffs and dangers associated with every type of power generation that might be expected to meet demand.
Coal and natural gas emit carbon dioxide.
Hydroelectric's great, but the local environmental problems are considerable. Growth is also limited by geography. And then there's catastrophic dam failure.
Wind's also great, but it's not reliable. Solar's got problems in places with lots of rainy days, not to mention at night.
Presumably this article is meant to heap scorn on the idea of nuclear energy.
Assuming we want to replace a significant part of the passenger car fleet with electric vehicles to reduce emissions, we're going to need even more generation. Not to mention running all of those gadgets no-one's even thought of yet.
So what's your suggestion for where that energy should come from?
Coal and natural gas emit carbon dioxide.
Hydroelectric's great, but the local environmental problems are considerable. Growth is also limited by geography. And then there's catastrophic dam failure.
Wind's also great, but it's not reliable. Solar's got problems in places with lots of rainy days, not to mention at night.
Presumably this article is meant to heap scorn on the idea of nuclear energy.
Assuming we want to replace a significant part of the passenger car fleet with electric vehicles to reduce emissions, we're going to need even more generation. Not to mention running all of those gadgets no-one's even thought of yet.
So what's your suggestion for where that energy should come from?
5
@4,
Why would you presume that?
I'm merely suggesting that should a nuclear disaster occur, it would put a damper on plans to build new nuclear reactors in the US, in the same way that Three Mile Island did.
Presumably this article is meant to heap scorn on the idea of nuclear energy.
Why would you presume that?
I'm merely suggesting that should a nuclear disaster occur, it would put a damper on plans to build new nuclear reactors in the US, in the same way that Three Mile Island did.
6
#4
GM, Hyundai, and Toyota are FCVs into production in 2015.
Hydrogen from renewables is best answer.
GM, Hyundai, and Toyota are FCVs into production in 2015.
Hydrogen from renewables is best answer.
7
Uh, guys...according to this, we should all be packing our bags and heading to Chicago...
Why would the west coast USA be in danger?
The prevailing jet stream winds are blowing from Japan directly across the Pacific ocean to the west coast of the United States. Any airborne radiation would make its way across with the jet stream, reaching the U.S. in approximately 36 hours, depending on the actual speed of the jet.
http://modernsurvivalblog.com/nuclear/we…
8
@4 At some point, people are going to have to face the unpleasant fact that our current energy consumption is unsustainable. There is nothing that will replace it at its present levels that won't cause damages to the environment. Nuclear power seems "clean" compared to coal right up until an accident happens, and then the results are so massively damaging they put everything else to shame. At some point, we simply won't be buying strawberries in January, or flying to Rome, at least not in the casual way we do now. People will be leaving the inefficient suburbs, moving to cities, driving less, and eating the way we used to. Not because we're so great and responsible, but because we don't have a choice. There are, as my husband who does this kind of planning for a living says, too many straws in the drink. It's going to run out.
10
#5 Sorry Goldy, just the take I took from it at a first glance. I figured your point was nuclear is too dangerous (and yes, catastrophic failures of nuclear power plants can be pretty, well, catastrophic), when it seems you're talking about public opinion. Point taken.
#6 And where does all that hydrogen come from? Besides, OH MY GOD THE HUMANITY! (Since we're talking about public opinion)
#6 And where does all that hydrogen come from? Besides, OH MY GOD THE HUMANITY! (Since we're talking about public opinion)
12
@8 The problem's not so much strawberries in January and jet-setting to Rome as it is more fundamental things like growing food for 6, 7, 10, 20 billion people, and getting that where it needs to be and doing it in such a way that requires the attention of a pretty tiny proportion of them, leaving the rest of us free to do other things. This is far more energy intensive than most people realize.
That's the basic premise of civilization right there.
That's the basic premise of civilization right there.
13
@12 Ah, population, too...all of these things that contribute to the problem. I would say that if we could provide education, allow women to have control over their reproductive rights, eliminate religious teachings that prohibit birth control, and do away with war, we'd have an easier time providing and distributing food for all of those people, but that'd be a discussion for another thread...
And I'm sorry to respond and run, but it's 1am here, and I am going to bed...can't wait to check back in the morning...
And I'm sorry to respond and run, but it's 1am here, and I am going to bed...can't wait to check back in the morning...
14
in the event of a mishap at a nuclear power plant, the result is literally the killing of the earth in that area as well as catastrophic (but not uninhabitable) damage elsewhere potentially spreading over vast distances. when calculating 'tradeoffs' how do you put a value on that? wind and solar are only unreliable in an individual location. there is always wind & sun somewhere. the key is an integrated system. why sink more of society's resources into a long term loser like nuclear power when you can invest in something sustainable?
16
Solar also destroys any environment it replaces. Unless of course it is in orbit, but significant orbital solar power generation isn't something I see happening in the next several decades at the soonest.
17
@5 If there does turn out to be a disaster, hopefully the impact would be to sunset the Price-Anderson Act rather than simply walking away from nuclear. It would be better for all of us if the industry had to self-insure, and more accurately capture the costs associated with fission.
18
Based on what I have heard so far, it looks like the Fukushima Daiichi power plant is going to melt down. I hope it does not, but if they cannot get water flowing, they cannot stop the chain reaction. Some of the fuel rods may have already melted.
19
Update, there has been an explosion at that plant. Not clear if it is related tot he reactor or the quake.
20
When that plant melts down, the jet stream will carry it east. It will either pass over Alaska, Canada, or the West coast. It should be high up in the air, but still. This is going to happen, so just be aware of it. Although I have been in about 7 different nuclear plants (on several ocasions for inspections, but I don't specialize in Nuke Plants and I don't care for them much either) So I am not an expert in this. The question is, what happens with the release? Does it float around in the atmosphere? What impact would rain have with it? Or is it above that? The jet stream swirls around in a clockwise circle, maybe hitting us, or perhaps Alaska.
My girlfriend is stuck in Tokyo and I have been following this a bit more then others I guess. Sorry about so many posts. She is OK but freaked out and not much I can do.
My girlfriend is stuck in Tokyo and I have been following this a bit more then others I guess. Sorry about so many posts. She is OK but freaked out and not much I can do.
21
don't be sorry kapow. thank you very much. i've been trying to figure out what all of the factors are that determine likelihood of meltdown & patterns of radiation dispersal & contamination. appreciate you sharing your knowledge. best wishes to you & your girlfriend.
22
Wikipedia is being kept up to date with details from around the world of the impending melt down of reactors 1&2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_I…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_I…
24
Here is a link to the current position of the jet stream.
http://squall.sfsu.edu/gif/jetstream_nor…
You can animate it at this website. I am using the Pacific map. It is kind of hard to find Japan (left center of the image) in this view, but you can see that the jet stream that passes over Japan and is presently hitting, Washington, Oregon, and Northern California. Again, no need to panic or anything, but it's nice to be aware of what may go down. It's just that nuclear fallout seems more important then the wackjob GOP in Wisconsin at the moment.
http://squall.sfsu.edu/gif/jetstream_nor…
You can animate it at this website. I am using the Pacific map. It is kind of hard to find Japan (left center of the image) in this view, but you can see that the jet stream that passes over Japan and is presently hitting, Washington, Oregon, and Northern California. Again, no need to panic or anything, but it's nice to be aware of what may go down. It's just that nuclear fallout seems more important then the wackjob GOP in Wisconsin at the moment.
25
Per meteorologist Cliff Mass ":...Regarding radioactive release in Japan, nothing to worry about. Even if there was a MASSIVE release there, it would be utterly diluted by the time it reached us.Posted by Cliff Mass Weather Blog at 9:35 PM "
http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/
http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/
26
Thank you, I Love IPA - I was having a protracted panic attack, but Cliff Mass' dulcet assurances have calmed me.
27
Morning. Not to be a big downer, or anything, regarding the release of radiation, but I was studying in Italy when the Chernobyl accident happened. Of course, they didn't tell anybody at the time, so it wasn't on the news right away, and only later we found out when the cloud had been over Italy. There had been a weird day for me, previous to learning about Chernobyl: There was an odd, metallic taste in the air, and I got my period early...perhaps completely unrelated, but when I did the math, I realized that the "metallic air" day was the day the cloud passed over...They were also telling people not to eat any fresh produce, although the warnings were stronger in places like Switzerland. It seemed to me at the time that it would be a bigger problem than just washing produce...
From The Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar…
•There has been an explosion at the Fukushima No 1 nuclear power plant in north-eastern Japan, close to the epicentre of the quake. Officials say the blast is not a meltdown but exterior walls of one of the reactor buildings have been destroyed. There are also concerns about Fukushima No 2 plant.
•Tens of thousands of people in the areas surrounding both plants have been urged to evacuate.
•Japanese authorities are preparing to distribute iodine to residents in the evacuation zones to protect them against radiation exposure.
From The Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar…
•There has been an explosion at the Fukushima No 1 nuclear power plant in north-eastern Japan, close to the epicentre of the quake. Officials say the blast is not a meltdown but exterior walls of one of the reactor buildings have been destroyed. There are also concerns about Fukushima No 2 plant.
•Tens of thousands of people in the areas surrounding both plants have been urged to evacuate.
•Japanese authorities are preparing to distribute iodine to residents in the evacuation zones to protect them against radiation exposure.
29
Throughout the last several weeks I've been chewing on the idea that this might be our new reality. I keep coming back to the fact that the average sea level has risen 6.7 inches in the 20th century and the rate appears to be excellerating, the planet has an ongoing glacial retreat, humans are effective at changing the climate through their actions, and the words of Bill McGuire (Aon Benfield UCL Hazard Research Center, University College of London) ring in my head with an imagined British accent. "If you start to see meter-scale [3.3-foot] rises in sea level, then the load starts to bend the [earth's] crust, and that would promote magma reaching the surface. That will give you a massive increase in volcanic activity. It'll activate faults to create earthquakes, submarine landslides, tsunamis, the whole lot." Or more simply put by NASA geophysicist Jeanne Sauber, "It's unavoidable that glacial retreat will induce tectonic activity" (New Scientist, May 27, 2006).
It makes me wonder and feel like the "unknowable... calmly licking its chops" and will continue to thwart our best attempts to predict its next move. Nature will not be placed in a box.
It makes me wonder and feel like the "unknowable... calmly licking its chops" and will continue to thwart our best attempts to predict its next move. Nature will not be placed in a box.
31
1000x normal is a totally irresponsible method of reporting. It's like saying if I shine a flashlight at a wall at night, I'm exposing the wall to thousands of times more light than before.
That doesn't make it dangerous.
Last reported levels I heard were 100mrem. At that rate, you would have to spend every minute of every day for 83 days in that room before you got radiation sickness. Levels in the surrounding area are 7mrem, which is barely above background.
That doesn't make it dangerous.
Last reported levels I heard were 100mrem. At that rate, you would have to spend every minute of every day for 83 days in that room before you got radiation sickness. Levels in the surrounding area are 7mrem, which is barely above background.
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