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News & ArtsThursday, March 10, 2011
Savage Love SLLOTD: Baby Daddy Drama
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 5:53 PM
I’m a 26-year-old gay male. I’ve been with my current (and only) partner for eight years now. We met while we were both in high school and are so far each others’ first and only relationship and sexual partner. He’s 27, we’re both very out to family and friends and everyone is very supportive and accepting. We get along well and the sex is great. We’re mutually supportive of one another, financially and emotionally, and we have successfully navigated the standard bumps in the road where our relationship is concerned. To our gay friends, we’re kind of the fairy tale couple. First loves, totally monogamous (not that I’m down on non-monogamy, it’s just not for us), long-term, etc., etc.
My problem, though…. Is kind of a huge one for me (obviously, or I wouldn’t be writing). I want a family. I want to get married, have kids, settle down, the whole nine yards. We’re relatively domestic right now. House in the suburbs, small four-legged mammal to make the house noisy, dinner parties with friends, etc. I’ve asked him to marry me, but he said no. His logic: he doesn’t feel the expense of a wedding is worth the benefit. Emotionally, it’s bullshit. However, a wedding isn’t a dealbreaker for me so I’ve come to terms with it and decided common-law is good enough for me. The sticking point, and why I’m writing, is kids. I’ve made it very clear to him for years now that I want kids, though I’m flexible on the how (adoption, surrogate, etc.).
Over the years I’ve obviously reminded him of this point. The problem is he’s never given me a straight answer. He’s always given very noncommittal answers like, “It’s a bit early to talk about that,” “We’re not ready for kids right now,” or basically any response that translates to, “Ask me again later.” I’m 27, not getting any younger, and I’d really like to get the ball rolling on this before I’m 30. I don’t want to be 70 years old when my kids are graduating high school.
Short version: How long do I wait for a straight answer before I sit him down and demand a yes or no out of him? I don’t really need a timeline from him, just a definite yes or no.
Also, if he doesn’t want kids, that will definitely end the relationship for me. I’ve thought about it quite a bit and decided that while I may be willing to give up a wedding for the sake of being with him, I’m not even willing to entertain the idea of giving up kids. How do I communicate to him how important this issue is to me without making him feel held hostage by it? I don’t want him to say yes to kids just because the relationship is over if he doesn’t want what I want.
Sorry for the lengthy word-count,Would Rather Be A Parent Than A Husband
My response after the jump...
················
How do you communicate just how important this issue is? You send him a link to this post, WRBAPTAH. And you have to accept that he may ultimately agree to have kids because that's the only way to keep you in his life—and he won't be the first person who agreed to have kids under duress, and most of those parents—under-duress parents—wind up being pretty decent parents. You also have to accept that this could signal the end of your relationship.
Good luck.
1
if he says no to kids, it is totally deal breaker. you either have a kid/s or not, there is no inbetween. I've seen straight couples break up over this. Dan is right that most reclutant parents end up being good parents, but if someone really doesn't want kids EVER, then the relationship is not going to work long term.
when my husband and I got married ten years ago we got a little "pre marriage councleing" (best thing ever) and the very first question the guy asked us was "do you want kids?" since we both said "yes" he said "ok, moving right along..."
when my husband and I got married ten years ago we got a little "pre marriage councleing" (best thing ever) and the very first question the guy asked us was "do you want kids?" since we both said "yes" he said "ok, moving right along..."
2
Yeah, you pretty much need to sit him down, look into his eyes, and say just what you did in your letter. This isn't an issue for hints or innuendos. I, too, know of straight couples who have broken up over this, one before kids, one after. For the one who broke up after the kids, she thought he'd come around once he saw how great the kids were...their kids are awesome--he didn't.
When my husband and I met, he wanted two kids, I wanted a big, noisy bunch. After the two kids had arrived, I decided three would be plenty, but I definitely wanted three. (I grew up with just one sibling, and envied kids from larger families.) He kept putting me off. He'd visit the vasectomy doctor, I'd tear up the form (you need your spouse's permission here), I'd sulk, he'd ignore. Anyway, finally I sat him down and said, "I would never get pregnant "accidentally," so I'll respect what you're saying, but you need to understand that this is really important to me, so much so that I can't promise that I won't really resent you at some point in the future if we don't have more kids." I was trying to be honest without blackmailing. He thought about it, and decided three kids would be okay. (He waited until my fourth month pregnancy ultrasound gave us the OK, and got a vasectomy that week...) And he's as good a dad to our third as he was to the first two...BUT, I think that having kids is such a tough, challenging thing a lot of the time, that it really helps to have two parents who are both totally keen (as they say in Canada) and on board.
When my husband and I met, he wanted two kids, I wanted a big, noisy bunch. After the two kids had arrived, I decided three would be plenty, but I definitely wanted three. (I grew up with just one sibling, and envied kids from larger families.) He kept putting me off. He'd visit the vasectomy doctor, I'd tear up the form (you need your spouse's permission here), I'd sulk, he'd ignore. Anyway, finally I sat him down and said, "I would never get pregnant "accidentally," so I'll respect what you're saying, but you need to understand that this is really important to me, so much so that I can't promise that I won't really resent you at some point in the future if we don't have more kids." I was trying to be honest without blackmailing. He thought about it, and decided three kids would be okay. (He waited until my fourth month pregnancy ultrasound gave us the OK, and got a vasectomy that week...) And he's as good a dad to our third as he was to the first two...BUT, I think that having kids is such a tough, challenging thing a lot of the time, that it really helps to have two parents who are both totally keen (as they say in Canada) and on board.
3
First: "I’m a 26-year-old gay male", and later: "I’m 27, not getting any younger..."
Who the Hell forgets their age? I'm calling bullshit, but for the life of me I can't think of WRBAPTAH's motive.
Who the Hell forgets their age? I'm calling bullshit, but for the life of me I can't think of WRBAPTAH's motive.
4
@3 I saw that, too...I think in the first case, he's being accurate (he's probably 26), and later, he's being dramatic, as in "I'm almost 30!" and is using his impending birthday as evidence of yet another year going by.
...and who forgets their age? Oh honey, just you wait. I had a rude awakening a couple of years ago, thinking I was 42, when, in fact, I was 43, soon to be 44 in a week...I lost two years in 7 days. Aging sucks.
...and who forgets their age? Oh honey, just you wait. I had a rude awakening a couple of years ago, thinking I was 42, when, in fact, I was 43, soon to be 44 in a week...I lost two years in 7 days. Aging sucks.
6
@1, where'd you get your counseling? And why? Not as many people do it as should, just curious as to how/why.
7
Hmmm, hard to say how this issue will resolve itself.
Some people are meant to be parents, some are not. I personally just happen to be in the camp of "at the age of 41, I have no regrets about not having any children and I never plan on having any."
But then, that's what works for me.
Some people are meant to be parents, some are not. I personally just happen to be in the camp of "at the age of 41, I have no regrets about not having any children and I never plan on having any."
But then, that's what works for me.
8
@3 His partner is 27 so he may have transposed their ages since he'd mentioned them earlier in his message.
Or he just had, or is about to have, his birthday. My b-day is in a few days and I'm already practicing saying my new age-to-be cause I don't want to look like an idiot and have to think it over if someone should ask me how old I am. The week before or after a b-day is a vulnerable time for that kind of error, especially if you don't carefully proof-read your emails (or, as in my case, though not apparently in the LW's, you don't give much of a fuck about another damned tick on the odometer).
Or he just had, or is about to have, his birthday. My b-day is in a few days and I'm already practicing saying my new age-to-be cause I don't want to look like an idiot and have to think it over if someone should ask me how old I am. The week before or after a b-day is a vulnerable time for that kind of error, especially if you don't carefully proof-read your emails (or, as in my case, though not apparently in the LW's, you don't give much of a fuck about another damned tick on the odometer).
9
@4: Hold on, young lass. I'm 49. Only very recently did I begin to lose my personal year count. In my twenties, though, I was acutely aware of my age.
Canuck, I'll concede that aging does indeed suck. I intend to live a long life but I have no intention of dying old!
Canuck, I'll concede that aging does indeed suck. I intend to live a long life but I have no intention of dying old!
10
@3 I think Dan usually changes identifying details in the letters that get printed. The age thing is probably a typo.
11
saxfanatic...I'm sure in my case it hinges on denial, as I rarely think I'm older than I really am...and just to make us feel better, a quote from my daughter a few years back, while looking at the cover of Madonna's "Confessions" CD: "She's 47? Wow, I think it's great that an old person can look that way..."
12
As a single gay man in his 40s, I can only wish to be in your situation. Sounds like you've got something pretty special going. 8 years, holy shit man, you're way ahead of the game. If you're partner throws all that away over the kids issue, I'll go out on a limb and say he'll deeply regret it someday. You can't just run out and replace your chemistry, shared time and love. The sad part is that he may have to lose it before he realizes it. I don't know him, but if he's the independent type that values all his free time to pursue all his passions, whether they be outdoorsy or indoorsy, and is afraid to lose that freedom to kids, if that's his hesitation, then he needs to be bonked on the head. I can jump in the car and head to the beach or mountains, or jet off to New York for a Broadway show at anytime, and I love it. But when I die, it'll all be gone with me. As someone with lots of very dear nieces and nephews, and friends with kids who are equally dear, I have seen over time the undeniable and amazing positive impact that kids have on their parents. The rewards are ridiculous. It's like an emotional credit card with an endless supply of points. You basically get to be a kid all over again, and you get all this unconditional love thrown in for free. Yeah, it's tiring and it comes with no guarantees, but it pretty much takes a flame thrower to the free-wheelin' single life. If his hesitations are deep and more along the philosophical lines (like, why bring a kid into this world), then yeah, DTMFA.
13
The kids issue is a deal-breaker. It's a yes-no question. He's spinning you along. Tell him flat out: "If we are not in the process by the time I turn 30, I'm leaving. If you are not on board for that, better we know now."
I'm lucky; neither my sweetie nor I wanted kids.
I'm lucky; neither my sweetie nor I wanted kids.
14
the letter writer needs to read this article by relationship advice columnist Veronica on Hubpages:
http://hubpages.com/hub/For_Unhappily_Ma…
Yes, it's written for straight couples, specifically ones that are having affairs, however, the point about how Kids Change Everything is not advice to be taken lightly. Assuming that WRBAPTAH has already thought about this, then this is something his partner should be made fully aware of. It's better to lose a partner than to have an unwilling one blindsided by the challenges of childrearing (and then leave after the kids are old enough to know them).
http://hubpages.com/hub/For_Unhappily_Ma…
Yes, it's written for straight couples, specifically ones that are having affairs, however, the point about how Kids Change Everything is not advice to be taken lightly. Assuming that WRBAPTAH has already thought about this, then this is something his partner should be made fully aware of. It's better to lose a partner than to have an unwilling one blindsided by the challenges of childrearing (and then leave after the kids are old enough to know them).
15
Sorry that last web address needs to say
http://
hubpages.com/
hub/For_Unhappily_Married_Men
"Married_Men" was cut off from the end of the html
http://
hubpages.com/
hub/For_Unhappily_Married_Men
"Married_Men" was cut off from the end of the html
16
I have 2 really good friends who split up over having/not having kids. He does need to sit the spousal unit down and tell him point blank that he wants kids. If the spousal unit says I don't, then it's time to either reconcile yourself to not having kids or split up.
17
Canuck, it was interesting to hear your story -- I want a big bunch of kids and my partner wants only two... I hope we'll be able to compromise on three too :)
18
Canuck, it's interesting to hear your story -- I want a big bunch of kids and my partner wants only two... I hope we'll be able to compromise on three too :)
19
WRBAPTAH, since becoming a father could take 2 to 3 years, if it were me I would have that talk sooner than later. Breaking up is such a heart breaking and sometimes lengthy process, which could put fatherhood on hold for you even longer.
Best of luck to you.
Best of luck to you.
21
WHAT A BITCH ! seriously you sound just like a female stereo- type , i wanna get married and have kids and settle down . i hope he dumps your ass . what a fag .
22
Good luck, Azul. Three is a great number, because if two don't get along/are being teenagers/whatever, there's always another sibling to hang out with. I wouldn't change a thing.
23
I doubt the conversation is necessary: he knows. When my boyfriend and I were getting serious we had a conversation about kids, and then another one a few months later, and then another one a few months after that. I knew that a family was a deal-breaker for him, and I have never heard one tick from my biological clock. We'd wonder sometimes if we should break up over the issue, but put it off. The whole time I was examining my feelings. Could I do it? Go through pregnancy, adjust my distrust of babies (my dog trained so easily, and humans are so much more intelligent, I don't understand how kids can read the labels on the bathroom doors and still have diapers!), and become responsible for another human being?
I ultimately decided that I'd rather be with him than without him, and I let him know that if he would be willing to wait a while longer, I could try to work up some enthusiasm for the idea.
So just talk to him. Don't give an ultimatum, just remind him that it's a very important issue for you, has he given it more thought, and does he want to talk about his reservations. And in turn, maybe you could adjust your timetable for him so that he doesn't feel so rushed.
I ultimately decided that I'd rather be with him than without him, and I let him know that if he would be willing to wait a while longer, I could try to work up some enthusiasm for the idea.
So just talk to him. Don't give an ultimatum, just remind him that it's a very important issue for you, has he given it more thought, and does he want to talk about his reservations. And in turn, maybe you could adjust your timetable for him so that he doesn't feel so rushed.
24
WTF Dan? Maybe most reluctant parents end up being good parents but a lot of them suck. And they will resent the person who pushed them into it and end up with the relationship breaking up anyway. Nobody should ever be pressured into having a kid they don't want.
25
No one has suggested a creative solution: they stay together but live in separate apartments, or nearby houses, and OP has kids by himself. Not quite the family OP is looking for, but a decent compromise if he doesn't want to start a relationship all over again.
26
@3 et al. -- it could be a typo. Anyone who's never misspelled his/her own name, raise your hand.
Now put your hand back down. You're lying.
Now put your hand back down. You're lying.
27
"I don't want to be 70 years old when my kids are graduating high school"...Jesus dude, you're 26 (or 27...whatever)! Chill the fuck out. You have PLENTY of time. Even if you were a chick with ovaries and such, you'd have a decade before you really needed to worry. Get a grip, relax, and have a little patience.
Christ!
Christ!
28
It's all good. Between 2000 and 2004 I thought I was a year older than I was.
I hope this works out, but I fully agree that if it doesn't, it shouldn't....
I hope this works out, but I fully agree that if it doesn't, it shouldn't....
29
Why, exactly, do you want kids?
My partner and I have been together for over 20 years. Early in our relationship, I wanted to adopt. My partner adamantly refused. At first I was not happy, but now in hindsight, I realize that I wanted kids because I was trying to mimic an idealized straight family arrangement. It was an attempt to conform to societal norms, despite being gay. Now, many years later, I'm glad we didn't have kids.
I've known several gay couples who have adopted, not all for good reasons. Some really really wanted to be parents. Others adopted kids as accessories. From your letter, you could fit either category. I can't read your mind, but I encourage you to give real serious thought as to why you really want kids.
My partner and I have been together for over 20 years. Early in our relationship, I wanted to adopt. My partner adamantly refused. At first I was not happy, but now in hindsight, I realize that I wanted kids because I was trying to mimic an idealized straight family arrangement. It was an attempt to conform to societal norms, despite being gay. Now, many years later, I'm glad we didn't have kids.
I've known several gay couples who have adopted, not all for good reasons. Some really really wanted to be parents. Others adopted kids as accessories. From your letter, you could fit either category. I can't read your mind, but I encourage you to give real serious thought as to why you really want kids.
30
Good advise as always. My age may be showing but even Urban Dictionary has no definition for WRBAPTAH. I know you're fond of acronyms but it's good to know that I am not the only one scratching my head over this one.
31
The issue here is that they got into a relationship when in high school, and that it has moved along until their mid-to-late twenties. Each others' only partners = alarm bells ringing.
Your guy does not sound like he's ready to make a life-long commitment, and I'm always skeptical that early relationships will go the distance. Why? Because we hear it from such couples (sometime between ages 30 and 35) that they made a mistake. The difference between the LW and many of those straight couples who have had a couple of kids before wanting to divorce is that it's harder for two gay guys to whip up a baby or two.
Take it easy and make it to 30 before jumping on the family bandwagon.
Your guy does not sound like he's ready to make a life-long commitment, and I'm always skeptical that early relationships will go the distance. Why? Because we hear it from such couples (sometime between ages 30 and 35) that they made a mistake. The difference between the LW and many of those straight couples who have had a couple of kids before wanting to divorce is that it's harder for two gay guys to whip up a baby or two.
Take it easy and make it to 30 before jumping on the family bandwagon.
32
To be 70 when the kid is graduating from high school WRBAPTAH would have to be 52 when he has kids. There's still time.
Although in fairness I'll say this: as someone who entered parenthood at age 35, I do wish I coulda done it at 25. Holyjezuzgodalmighty it's a fuckton of work when they're wee. Rewarding as hell, but holyjezuzgodalmighty.
Although in fairness I'll say this: as someone who entered parenthood at age 35, I do wish I coulda done it at 25. Holyjezuzgodalmighty it's a fuckton of work when they're wee. Rewarding as hell, but holyjezuzgodalmighty.
33
@25: Your solution, whatever its merits, is vanishingly unlikely. Whatever the law says in LW's state, the practical reality is that it is unbelievably hard for a single male to get approved for adoption. I think I'm on solid ground speculating that a single gay male would have even more trouble doing so.
34
@32
I’d really like to get the ball rolling on this before I’m 30. I don’t want to be 70 years old when my kids are graduating high school.
I figure he's just going to be a shitty parent and the kid will graduate from high school at age 40. On the plus side, the kid will be plenty popular with those alcohol-purchasing powers. . .
I’d really like to get the ball rolling on this before I’m 30. I don’t want to be 70 years old when my kids are graduating high school.
I figure he's just going to be a shitty parent and the kid will graduate from high school at age 40. On the plus side, the kid will be plenty popular with those alcohol-purchasing powers. . .
35
@32 said it. WRBAPTAH defined his limits on how long he can wait, and it's about 22 years. But right now would be nice.
36
@25, @33: There's coparenting as an option. WRBAPTAH can (try to) find himself a nice lesbian/single straight lady to have a kid with, and have two primary adult relationships in his life: one with his coparent, built around parenting, and one with his partner, built around romance/companionship and all that good stuff. Like divorced parenting without the acrimony.
37
@12: If the partner doesn't want kids, he doesn't want kids, and the fact that you wish you had kids has nothing to do with how he feels. Pressuring him isn't going to help if it's really not what he wants.
And people need to go easy on "DTMFA" - if it's just incompatibility, then there's no motherfucker.
And people need to go easy on "DTMFA" - if it's just incompatibility, then there's no motherfucker.
38
When I was 27, I didn't even want to see kids, let alone be responsible for them.
But I also knew that I wanted to have them someday, and I had a pretty good idea of when that day would be (age 31).
Take Dan's advice, and accept nothing less from him than a wholehearted, enthusiastic affirmation that he wants to have kids someday, and make him tell you when that day will be. If he waffles, break up with him and find someone else.
As sad as that is, trust me, having kids (if you want them) is more than worth the pain of ending this relationship.
But I also knew that I wanted to have them someday, and I had a pretty good idea of when that day would be (age 31).
Take Dan's advice, and accept nothing less from him than a wholehearted, enthusiastic affirmation that he wants to have kids someday, and make him tell you when that day will be. If he waffles, break up with him and find someone else.
As sad as that is, trust me, having kids (if you want them) is more than worth the pain of ending this relationship.
39
I'm with @36, it seems like there's an opportunity for some creative parenting solutions. Most kids could use an extra parent or two around, to shuttle them to activities, pay for college tuition, and teach them useful things.
Totally disagree with @12 though: "It's like an emotional credit card with an endless supply of points." Not. They're more like annoying little housemates who don't buy any groceries and roll their eyes at anything you suggest. Can't imagine life without 'em, but it's no bed of roses.
Totally disagree with @12 though: "It's like an emotional credit card with an endless supply of points." Not. They're more like annoying little housemates who don't buy any groceries and roll their eyes at anything you suggest. Can't imagine life without 'em, but it's no bed of roses.
40
Early in our relationship my husband told me he didn't want kids, but he'd have them to be with me. Fast forward 15 years and he's the best dad ever, he's told me he feels sorry for people who don't have children. So it's true that people who were reluctant can come around once there's an actual child on the scene.
42
To the LW--
You already have a good idea of how things are with your question about marriage--the BF didn't want to go through with it for because "he [doesn't] feel the expense of a wedding is worth the benefit." I'm assuming that you are in a state with either civil unions (CA, HI) or same-sex marriage (IA, MA, DC, CT, VT), right? A quick google shows that the cost of getting a marriage license in Boston will run you about $50. A JP will charge about $75 for performing the ceremony = $125. Good suits you probably already have in your closet, rose boutonnieres you can have made at the grocery store for $10 each, and a cake and punch reception in your own house for about $100 total. Total cost $235, maybe up to $500 if you want to have a big carnivorous barbecue in your backyard to go with the cake and punch.
What this is telling me is that your partner doesn't want to make the legal commitment, and is trying to explain away the emotional need in logical words. He's doing the same thing with the kids--"we're not old enough" means he doesn't want to, and it doesn't have the sting of a straightforward no. "Ask me again later" means "I'm not willing to discuss this, ever, but I don't want to get into an argument with you about it." Once again, it's NO couched into vague, not-hurting-your-feelings words.
I would hope that your partner would eventually have enough respect for you that he would tell you no straightaway. So far it isn't happening. Perhaps it will.
If he doesn't, though, if he keeps ducking the question and stringing you along, there's your answer. In that case, move along, be kind to one another, and find a man who wants what you want.
You already have a good idea of how things are with your question about marriage--the BF didn't want to go through with it for because "he [doesn't] feel the expense of a wedding is worth the benefit." I'm assuming that you are in a state with either civil unions (CA, HI) or same-sex marriage (IA, MA, DC, CT, VT), right? A quick google shows that the cost of getting a marriage license in Boston will run you about $50. A JP will charge about $75 for performing the ceremony = $125. Good suits you probably already have in your closet, rose boutonnieres you can have made at the grocery store for $10 each, and a cake and punch reception in your own house for about $100 total. Total cost $235, maybe up to $500 if you want to have a big carnivorous barbecue in your backyard to go with the cake and punch.
What this is telling me is that your partner doesn't want to make the legal commitment, and is trying to explain away the emotional need in logical words. He's doing the same thing with the kids--"we're not old enough" means he doesn't want to, and it doesn't have the sting of a straightforward no. "Ask me again later" means "I'm not willing to discuss this, ever, but I don't want to get into an argument with you about it." Once again, it's NO couched into vague, not-hurting-your-feelings words.
I would hope that your partner would eventually have enough respect for you that he would tell you no straightaway. So far it isn't happening. Perhaps it will.
If he doesn't, though, if he keeps ducking the question and stringing you along, there's your answer. In that case, move along, be kind to one another, and find a man who wants what you want.
43
@34 &41, I don't understand the certainty that LW will be a terrible parent? Why are you stating this? Because he's certain that he wants children? Some people just know that they want to be parents and I don't understand why that's wrong. At 24 going on 25 I know for a fact that I want to be a parent (before I am thirty three ideally) and I don't think there is anything wrong with my planning for it.
I don't think he should pressure a reluctant partner into parenthood but I think he's right to make sure that he and his boyfriend are on the same page. It is better to end a relationship with different end-goals than to reach fifty and be angry about how he never had the children he wanted, only in IMO obviously.
I don't think he should pressure a reluctant partner into parenthood but I think he's right to make sure that he and his boyfriend are on the same page. It is better to end a relationship with different end-goals than to reach fifty and be angry about how he never had the children he wanted, only in IMO obviously.
44
I was an only child until I was 30, at which point my parents adopted a teenaged foster child. Perhaps being an only child for so long made the issue clear for me, but I always knew I wanted to be a dad.
I never entered into a serious relationship until I knew the person felt the same way about kids. My partner is 12 years older than me & we raised his kids from his previous, heterosexual relationship. Our twins were born when the other two kids were 18 & 16. He was literally almost done with the parenting thing. You know someone really loves you when they're willing to start all over again at that point. When our twins are 18, my partner will have spent 36 years of his life raising kids. That's love.
I never entered into a serious relationship until I knew the person felt the same way about kids. My partner is 12 years older than me & we raised his kids from his previous, heterosexual relationship. Our twins were born when the other two kids were 18 & 16. He was literally almost done with the parenting thing. You know someone really loves you when they're willing to start all over again at that point. When our twins are 18, my partner will have spent 36 years of his life raising kids. That's love.
45
My beautiful friends, if one of you doesn't want kids, please don't have/adopt any. The little people aren't pawns in a game or accessories. They're going to need so much more from both of you than either of you can imagine.
It sounds to me like the love you have is very special indeed. You have to ask if it's worth killing one love for a chance at another.
It sounds to me like the love you have is very special indeed. You have to ask if it's worth killing one love for a chance at another.
46
I'm reading alot of people expection his partner to change his mind so they can stay together. But what about WRBaPTaH changing his mind for his partners happiness? I work in a school and see many adults who obviously hate their kids after following the social pressure for a child. WRBaPTaH should think of someone elses happiness and some couples therapy.
47
He goes from being "almost 30" to not wanting to be 70 when his kids graduate from high school. He's either really bad at math or a drama queen. Or maybe he just plans on having a kid that earns his HS diploma by taking adult education classes after being released from prison.
I for one am always wary of the "fairy tale couple." The few I have known that have been described that way were, in fact, anything but fairy tales.
I for one am always wary of the "fairy tale couple." The few I have known that have been described that way were, in fact, anything but fairy tales.
48
While Dan may be right that lots of reluctant parents turn out to be good parents, that doesn't mean that they turn out to be happy parents or happy people. I also take exception to the idea, expressed by many here and elsewhere, that when one partner wants kids and the other doesn't, the latter partner will likely "come around" as if there's some sort of magical destination toward which we are all headed, our parenting destiny, and they are just confused. He may not have said in as many words that he doesn't want kids, but when he does say that (and it seems inevitable, based on the info in this letter), don't talk yourself into thinking that he's just unenlightened, that he doesn't realize yet that he actually does want kids, in short that he will "come around." Maybe it's you who will "come around" to realizing that your picket-fence fantasy is nothing more than a childish ideal?
49
Emotional backmail is not the answer! Nobody should be forced to have children. And, from a personal stand point,
I find the writers attitude repugnant and immature.
I find the writers attitude repugnant and immature.
50
It's over. You already know that giving a non-codependent man an ultimatum (about any topic) guarantees that it's over. Move on. Even if you don't physically split-up immediately, start using condoms NOW because he's on the market regardless of who put him there or why.
51
@36: by all means, single men who want a child should (and probably must) look for creative solutions. I'm just noting that adopting will be really hard, and most surrogate - even gay-friendly ones will prefer a stable couple to the most commited and motivated single person. I wish it was easier but it ain't.Ooo
52
I totally understand breaking up over this issue if people are nearing biological reproductive deadlines and have firm differing opinions on it. But it seems like the BF isn't saying yes or no, he's saying "woah, can we wait on this?" And at 26 and 27 that seems totally reasonable, especially for guys, who don't have the biological constraints women do.
And the note's author didn't say where they live, but if it's in most of the US a "wedding" won't have any legal meaning and even in the US states where it does, most of the important stuff depends on a DOMA repeal. Under those circumstances, I wouldn't feel much urgency either. (I got married more for practical reasons than emotional ones - we had a solid partnership before then, but it sure does make living overseas together easier!) And city hall (again, if that's even an option depending on where they live) may be cheap but in a lot of families it's totally socially unacceptable to do that, and they might not want to piss off supportive families.
And the note's author didn't say where they live, but if it's in most of the US a "wedding" won't have any legal meaning and even in the US states where it does, most of the important stuff depends on a DOMA repeal. Under those circumstances, I wouldn't feel much urgency either. (I got married more for practical reasons than emotional ones - we had a solid partnership before then, but it sure does make living overseas together easier!) And city hall (again, if that's even an option depending on where they live) may be cheap but in a lot of families it's totally socially unacceptable to do that, and they might not want to piss off supportive families.
53
Why is it, when one half of a gay couple expresses any interest in having or adopting children they are warned, heavy-handedly, not to think of children as accessories, and to wage the decision against having a partner at all? I’m asking because I have faced these responses from my own family, and I think they’re bullshit. For starters, I’m not convinced there are many gay couples accessorizing with children, then again, I don’t live in Los Angeles. Although, I do watch television, and acknowledge the conceit exists in the public eye. That doesn’t make it generally true, especially when it comes from someone who says they know someone.
I was baited to respond to this letter because I could have written it. My partner and I have a nearly identical background to the LW: Stable, monogamous gay men, coming into our thirties, we met when we were eighteen, and have maintained a very full and satisfying relationship for twelve years, save for the bit, within me, that really wants to be a father. So what, if I come from a big family, and want to give my mother grandchildren, and he, coming from a very distant one, is reluctant? I’m not saying it should be taken lightly, but I resent the implications that we should have to be more prepared or reserving than every straight couple I have ever known in my entire life before making that decision.
I was baited to respond to this letter because I could have written it. My partner and I have a nearly identical background to the LW: Stable, monogamous gay men, coming into our thirties, we met when we were eighteen, and have maintained a very full and satisfying relationship for twelve years, save for the bit, within me, that really wants to be a father. So what, if I come from a big family, and want to give my mother grandchildren, and he, coming from a very distant one, is reluctant? I’m not saying it should be taken lightly, but I resent the implications that we should have to be more prepared or reserving than every straight couple I have ever known in my entire life before making that decision.
54
The biggest red flag for me was not wanting to get into a legal marriage. I think this LW's BF is seriously thinking he may not want this relationship to be his one and only lifetime's worth of emotional/sexual interaction. He may not be stepping out yet, but he's thinking about it already. Don't let what other people think about your "fairy tale" romance influence you; take a good hard look at what he's saying and how he's saying it. He loves you, but he's not sure he will love you forever.
55
I think you have the discussion now - an open, honest conversation, where you say that yes, this is a dealbreaker but extends the possibility of tabling "getting started" for at least a few more years as a position of compromise. At 26/27 you have quite a few years before you hit elderly parent territory (my father incidentally was 45 when I was born, is still going strong at 80 and was a very involved and active father) - I'm a woman, with a deteriorating-ovary-fueled biological clock, and I didn't even feel it twitching at 27, frankly. I suspect the boyfriend is still feeling rather young to be making these sorts of moves despite the longstanding nature of the relationship. Or maybe he's not feeling it for the long-term. Dig deeper on the topic, but be flexible about your own stand.
56
@27 - that's just not true. I am an egg donor, and the majority of the women that work with my fertility agency are under 40, not over. Fertility begins to decline at 30. I'm not saying anyone should rush to have a baby, but if it's of huge importance to you and you want to wait, please make sure that's an option for you by getting a read of your current fertility from a professional. It's heart-breaking for me to see these women go through this, and I'm not the one having the issue. They all say things like, "I thought I had more time."
But this guy, his boyfriend doesn't want to marry him, let alone have kids. If he won't agree to a city hall or simple ceremony (not sure what level of second-class citizen he is where he lives) then it doesn't look good for the future. And am I the only one that thinks first love, first and only sexual partner doesn't bode well for the long-term? How do you know you want this car and only this car for the rest of your life if you've never driven any other?
But this guy, his boyfriend doesn't want to marry him, let alone have kids. If he won't agree to a city hall or simple ceremony (not sure what level of second-class citizen he is where he lives) then it doesn't look good for the future. And am I the only one that thinks first love, first and only sexual partner doesn't bode well for the long-term? How do you know you want this car and only this car for the rest of your life if you've never driven any other?
57
I think a reluctant parent would probably do ok, b/c once the baby is here there's nothing you can do but love him or her. However, the answer still needs to be a yes before the baby is born, even if there was hemming and hawwing to get to that answer. Kids are a lot of work and expensive, too, so both parents need to be ready to go.
58
...There's coparenting as an option. WRBAPTAH can (try to) find himself a nice lesbian/single straight lady to have a kid with...
I wish more gay men would think of this. I'm a nice single straight lady, and I would freaking love to have two or more parents for our children. I mean, I'd like to have those children, but even aside from the importance of that, I would definitely get into a situation like that if I could. I looked hard, but couldn't find any takers where I live.
I wish more gay men would think of this. I'm a nice single straight lady, and I would freaking love to have two or more parents for our children. I mean, I'd like to have those children, but even aside from the importance of that, I would definitely get into a situation like that if I could. I looked hard, but couldn't find any takers where I live.
59
Poor young baby homos. I too am wary of high-school fairytale marriages, and even more so with gay ones. Add the unwillingness of the partner to make anything in their relationship legal. "Common law" is NOT APPLICABLE to gay couples, guys! So you have nothing legally binding with each other, but the usual emotional fidelity. Okay, but telling.
Now add the LW's need for a kid, to the point of having one with or without the current partner. Kids should never be an ultimatum or gun-point item. If you can't agree on having them in the first place, you'll never agree on the miriad of things involving them later.
Finally, tho gay guys talk about having kids, mostly they don't want to really. I have my kids from my pray-away-the-gay period in life, but had that not happened, I wouldn't have any. My partner wanted kids when we met, but after helping raise mine, soon stated emphatically that he would *not* want a kid of his own. They are a crushing burden mentally, emotionally and physically, in addition to being the best and most life-changing thing a human can do.
If they can't even commit to legally binding agreements for their relationship's protection, they have no business having kids as a couple. Sad to say but move on, LW.
Now add the LW's need for a kid, to the point of having one with or without the current partner. Kids should never be an ultimatum or gun-point item. If you can't agree on having them in the first place, you'll never agree on the miriad of things involving them later.
Finally, tho gay guys talk about having kids, mostly they don't want to really. I have my kids from my pray-away-the-gay period in life, but had that not happened, I wouldn't have any. My partner wanted kids when we met, but after helping raise mine, soon stated emphatically that he would *not* want a kid of his own. They are a crushing burden mentally, emotionally and physically, in addition to being the best and most life-changing thing a human can do.
If they can't even commit to legally binding agreements for their relationship's protection, they have no business having kids as a couple. Sad to say but move on, LW.
60
WRBAPTAH sounds really set in this, it doesn't sound like changing his mind is going to be an option. If that's the case, then his partner needs to ask himself what's worse: life with children or life without WRBAPTAH.
61
I see what he's saying with the "don't want to be 70" comment. He's 26/27 now, but his partner won't even have the discussion, which usually precedes the event by a decent interval. If you're going to adopt, it can take a very long time, and longer I imagine if you have to find a gay-friendly adoption agency, depending where you live and how you want to do it. If you're going to find a surrogate, you have to find the surrogate, plus wait at least 9-10 months, possibly longer. People don't always get pregnant on the first try. Then there's the time to get things ready in your lives, for both partners to be mentally prepared and materially prepared. There's more to it than simple math; there's a sense of progress toward the goal that the guy is missing. Also, it's not like he can get accidentally knocked up or anything. If he's going to have this in his life, he's going to have to make it happen.
62
Many good comments. @29 and @59 both resonate with me. Both are older guys with some wisdom, it seems. I particularly like the idea of some introspection on exactly why kids are so important to him. If he is being truly honest with himself, so be it.
I didn't have kids with the high school sweetheart I married and that was probably a good thing despite the fact that we remain friends and we both now have kids. My first biological kid came along when I was 39 and all four of my kids (step and bio) are treasures that complete my life, but the later timing seemed right for me.
I like the idea of agreeing now, honestly, on "kids or no kids" but leaving the actual start time a bit more nebulous. Then the decision on whether to continue as a couple can take its own path (I'm actually more concerned that neither has had another relationship or even another sexual partner - my spider sense is tingling on that one...)
I didn't have kids with the high school sweetheart I married and that was probably a good thing despite the fact that we remain friends and we both now have kids. My first biological kid came along when I was 39 and all four of my kids (step and bio) are treasures that complete my life, but the later timing seemed right for me.
I like the idea of agreeing now, honestly, on "kids or no kids" but leaving the actual start time a bit more nebulous. Then the decision on whether to continue as a couple can take its own path (I'm actually more concerned that neither has had another relationship or even another sexual partner - my spider sense is tingling on that one...)
63
A lot of people have mentioned the "creative co-parenting" with a single straight woman or a single or coupled lesbian option for the LW. I'm not sure that this is an option for many people, because, as Dan mentioned in his book "the Kid," you may have to be prepared to go to court to keep your parental rights. It's the major pitfall of having a baby with someone who isn't legally bound to you. What if one parent gets a job out of state, or meets someone and marries and they get a job out of state, or the new husband/wife wants to adopt the kid they're helping to raise? Or if one parent dies unexpectedly and the family of that parent doesn't approve of the arrangement? Plus, being listed as a parent on a birth certificate makes one responsible for child support payments in some states, even when there is joint custody. I'm not sure how legal custody arrangements are handled in the case of parents who have not been married to each other, but it could get really messy, depending on how flexible everyone is willing to be. As an example, my mother lived 1000-ish miles away (MS to UT) from her new husband for almost 10 years (they were married for 3 of those) because she didn't want to uproot her kids from the life they knew (this lasted until my baby sister graduated high-school). Also she didn't do it because my dad would have fought her tooth, nail, and court case to uphold their joint custody so he could see us, and neither of them wanted us to go through that. It's anecdotal, but from the custody cases/divorces I've seen around me, most parents aren't willing to make that kind of personal compromise, I don't know that I would. I've seen people go to court over custody that live within 5 miles of each other.
Also, @61, I totally get missing the "sense of progress towards a goal." As far as I know, you can't accidentally adopt a kid one drunken night when a condom breaks. It (adoption) happens quickly for some people, and others wait a long time. It's just good to know that you both want to head to the same place, and start putting the pieces together.
More...
Also, @61, I totally get missing the "sense of progress towards a goal." As far as I know, you can't accidentally adopt a kid one drunken night when a condom breaks. It (adoption) happens quickly for some people, and others wait a long time. It's just good to know that you both want to head to the same place, and start putting the pieces together.
64
I hate how the conversation of kids or no kids always comes down to how great an idea it is to pressure the "no/fewer kids" partner into having more. For those of you who say that you'd eventually end up resenting your partner for not giving in, what would you do when it comes out that your partner resents you for forcing them into that position?
It's a scary subject to approach, but whether or not the person you're with wants to have kids is a question that needs to be asked early on, and it needs to be given a definite answer.
Baby rabies is not attractive.
It's a scary subject to approach, but whether or not the person you're with wants to have kids is a question that needs to be asked early on, and it needs to be given a definite answer.
Baby rabies is not attractive.
65
And I'd also like to add that not getting married doesn't necessarily mean that the partner doesn't want a commitment or that there isn't a bond between the two. Marriage does not make you official. The way you treat one another does.
66
@20:
No, being gay means that you get to be a parent *only if you really, really want to be*. As opposed to the usual (and, I might add, species-perpetuating) "oh shit, you're *pregnant*?!" sort of thing.
No, being gay means that you get to be a parent *only if you really, really want to be*. As opposed to the usual (and, I might add, species-perpetuating) "oh shit, you're *pregnant*?!" sort of thing.
67
This comment needs to be above a cut.
While Dan may be right that lots of reluctant parents turn out to be good parents, that doesn't mean that they turn out to be happy parents or happy people. I also take exception to the idea, expressed by many here and elsewhere, that when one partner wants kids and the other doesn't, the latter partner will likely "come around" as if there's some sort of magical destination toward which we are all headed, our parenting destiny, and they are just confused. He may not have said in as many words that he doesn't want kids, but when he does say that (and it seems inevitable, based on the info in this letter), don't talk yourself into thinking that he's just unenlightened, that he doesn't realize yet that he actually does want kids, in short that he will "come around." Maybe it's you who will "come around" to realizing that your picket-fence fantasy is nothing more than a childish ideal?
While Dan may be right that lots of reluctant parents turn out to be good parents, that doesn't mean that they turn out to be happy parents or happy people. I also take exception to the idea, expressed by many here and elsewhere, that when one partner wants kids and the other doesn't, the latter partner will likely "come around" as if there's some sort of magical destination toward which we are all headed, our parenting destiny, and they are just confused. He may not have said in as many words that he doesn't want kids, but when he does say that (and it seems inevitable, based on the info in this letter), don't talk yourself into thinking that he's just unenlightened, that he doesn't realize yet that he actually does want kids, in short that he will "come around." Maybe it's you who will "come around" to realizing that your picket-fence fantasy is nothing more than a childish ideal?
68
I with @42. All of these stalling techniques scream avoidance and commitment phobia to me. I would much more likely to think that progress would be possible on the kid front if it weren't for how he approaches the marriage issue. It seems to me that he is just stalling for time and hoping the issue goes away or you change your mind.
I am glad @63 raised the issue of problems with the co-parenting idea. That sounds like a living nightmare to me. The legal issues are thorny enough when you are dealing with just father and a mother. When you all of a sudden add in at least one other adult the legal issues just mushroom. What would your partner's status even be? Husband of the father? Father, along with another Father, and a Mother? I doubt that there is a state that allows three people to be on the birth certificate, so fundamentally you would be aligned either with the mother or your boyfriend.
Gahh. It gives me nightmares just thinking about how it would work. There is child support to think about, physical custody, right to make medical and educational decisions, it is just endless and you would be starting out with the huge strike against you that you would be having a child with someone you both don't love and don't live with.
My wife's former boss (a lesbian) and her wife contemplated having a gay male friend be the sperm source in a scenario like the one some people here are suggesting. I argued as hard as I could with my wife as the intermediary that the idea was disastrous. I don't know whether I had anything to do with their choice, but they went with a formal agency and real sperm donor. Eight years later or so they divorced (not legally of course since we live in Texas). They share custody 50/50 with each other and live in the same city.
Trying to think how the situation would be different if they had started with a co-parenting relationship with a male friend of theirs just makes my head hurt. Say they started 50/50 with the father. Does that mean that now they get 25% each? Or 33%? If it is 33%, why is the father penalized because the women broke up? If it is 25%, is it fair that the father gets 50% but the bio mom only gets half as much time as him? What does 25% or 33% custody even mean? Who pays child support to whom? What happens when one or more people want or need to move?
Keep your threeways where they belong: in the bedroom with no children involved.
Anyway, there is a wealth of literature out there addressed to straight women in your position. It may or may not be helpful. Dan is right that reluctant parents often turn out to be good parents. Many straight men act much like your boyfriend is acting now when children are first brought up. Because of this, I would have been inclined to let it slide a little and give him some sort of timetable of your expectations. That works on most straight men. The reluctance on the marriage is what makes me think of a different kind of straight man though. The kind who never intends to marry or settle down or have kids and who is content to string women along as long as they can get away with it. You need to find out if you are dealing with normal male kid shyness or with normal male rapscallionhood. I am inclined towards thinking he is the rapscallion type.
More...
I am glad @63 raised the issue of problems with the co-parenting idea. That sounds like a living nightmare to me. The legal issues are thorny enough when you are dealing with just father and a mother. When you all of a sudden add in at least one other adult the legal issues just mushroom. What would your partner's status even be? Husband of the father? Father, along with another Father, and a Mother? I doubt that there is a state that allows three people to be on the birth certificate, so fundamentally you would be aligned either with the mother or your boyfriend.
Gahh. It gives me nightmares just thinking about how it would work. There is child support to think about, physical custody, right to make medical and educational decisions, it is just endless and you would be starting out with the huge strike against you that you would be having a child with someone you both don't love and don't live with.
My wife's former boss (a lesbian) and her wife contemplated having a gay male friend be the sperm source in a scenario like the one some people here are suggesting. I argued as hard as I could with my wife as the intermediary that the idea was disastrous. I don't know whether I had anything to do with their choice, but they went with a formal agency and real sperm donor. Eight years later or so they divorced (not legally of course since we live in Texas). They share custody 50/50 with each other and live in the same city.
Trying to think how the situation would be different if they had started with a co-parenting relationship with a male friend of theirs just makes my head hurt. Say they started 50/50 with the father. Does that mean that now they get 25% each? Or 33%? If it is 33%, why is the father penalized because the women broke up? If it is 25%, is it fair that the father gets 50% but the bio mom only gets half as much time as him? What does 25% or 33% custody even mean? Who pays child support to whom? What happens when one or more people want or need to move?
Keep your threeways where they belong: in the bedroom with no children involved.
Anyway, there is a wealth of literature out there addressed to straight women in your position. It may or may not be helpful. Dan is right that reluctant parents often turn out to be good parents. Many straight men act much like your boyfriend is acting now when children are first brought up. Because of this, I would have been inclined to let it slide a little and give him some sort of timetable of your expectations. That works on most straight men. The reluctance on the marriage is what makes me think of a different kind of straight man though. The kind who never intends to marry or settle down or have kids and who is content to string women along as long as they can get away with it. You need to find out if you are dealing with normal male kid shyness or with normal male rapscallionhood. I am inclined towards thinking he is the rapscallion type.
70
This letter was particularly amusing for me. I've often idly wondered where my biological clock was, and it turns out it was given to a gay man! After 15 blissful childfree years of marriage, this straight lady thanks the cosmos for its wicked sense of humor.
71
I am a straight female who went through this exact thing with my now ex boyfriend. We were together for six years, I wanted to be a parent before I was 30 and he wouldn't give me an answer regarding kids. We ended up breaking up (amicably- we still have a very good friendship) and I met my now husband who was on the same page as me regarding the having kids debate. We got pregnant in early September (I was 30) and I unfortunately miscarried in December. I am now 31 and am trying to get pregnant for a second time. Life does not come with guarantees- pregnancies do not always end in babies. If having a child is really this important to you, you need to talk to your partner now and accept that this might mean the end of your relationship. The end of my relationship with my ex was very hard, but my husband is better suited to me than anyone I've ever been with, he is my best friend and I can't imagine my life without him.
Good luck :)
Good luck :)
72
Please accept that some people don't want children. WRBAPTAH should not make the same mistake so many girls have and just figure the partner will change his mind once the baby arrives. He could easily end up losing the relationship anyway, and be stuck as a single parent. Better to make it clear now what the score is rather than trying to coerce someone into being a parent and having a messy break up later that will likely mess up the kid/s.
73
@68: The suggestion as I understood it was not to have three parents (since the LW's boyfriend does not want to be a parent), but rather for him to raise a kid on his own, or possibly co-parent with someone else. The LW's boyfriend wouldn't be involved with the kid; he'd just be dating the LW.
I don't see how the complications with a possible break-up of a co-parenting situation are any worse than the complications of a divorce with kids. And if the LW raised kids as a single dad, the only complication would be getting the kids in the first place (granted, that may not be an easy matter).
I don't see how the complications with a possible break-up of a co-parenting situation are any worse than the complications of a divorce with kids. And if the LW raised kids as a single dad, the only complication would be getting the kids in the first place (granted, that may not be an easy matter).
74
Having dated and then co-habited a man with children, is it really possible to date someone with children, long term, and avoid the whole parenting thing? I really don't think its possible, or healthy. Kids are such a huge part of someone's life I think it is facile to suggest that a romantic relationship can be separate from child rearing. After that relationship I made the decision not to date anyone with children from a previous relationship - I have never wanted children and do not want to share my life with anyone else's. Certainly if they are an age to need active caring/residency.
75
Maybe the letter writer wouldn't feel so much the urge to be a parent if everyone else around him wasn't hating on his authenticity, children weren't unself-conscious enough to appreciate it, and his only hope of interacting with his species with any authentic capacity was to raise children himself.
76
The LW needs to ask himself what is a higher priority - being with this person or having things like a marriage and kids by a certain age - because it may come down to that. The language used by the LW ("I'm not getting any younger") suggests that he has a pretty set vision for how he wants his life to play out. If time is that much of a factor, then regardless of whether his partner never wants children or wants to wait (for whatever reason), the LW won't be happy and should move on.
The LW's partner could be childfree or may just want to wait (as many people are doing nowadays), and that will make a difference in how things could play out. You definitely don't want to pressure someone into having kids if they don't want them. Speaking as a childfree person, there is a lot of stigma against someone who doesn't want children at all, and many of us get used to softening our language with "not now" or "I'm waiting for more X" (X = money, education, stability) so people don't take offense (yes, they do). As a result, the LW's partner could be afraid of sounding too extreme (if he's actually childfree). Alternately, the LW's partner could just want to take things more slowly.
I'd recommend finding a way to put aside the "I want, I want" and really LISTEN to his partner to see what his partner wants, rather than doesn't want. Opening up and being accepting will be the only way to figure out what his partner really means.
(This is one reason why I've always been up front about not wanting kids ever when dating someone at all regularly. Ironically, I get the inverse problem - where the other person hangs on, thinking I'll change my mind despite my certainty.)
The LW's partner could be childfree or may just want to wait (as many people are doing nowadays), and that will make a difference in how things could play out. You definitely don't want to pressure someone into having kids if they don't want them. Speaking as a childfree person, there is a lot of stigma against someone who doesn't want children at all, and many of us get used to softening our language with "not now" or "I'm waiting for more X" (X = money, education, stability) so people don't take offense (yes, they do). As a result, the LW's partner could be afraid of sounding too extreme (if he's actually childfree). Alternately, the LW's partner could just want to take things more slowly.
I'd recommend finding a way to put aside the "I want, I want" and really LISTEN to his partner to see what his partner wants, rather than doesn't want. Opening up and being accepting will be the only way to figure out what his partner really means.
(This is one reason why I've always been up front about not wanting kids ever when dating someone at all regularly. Ironically, I get the inverse problem - where the other person hangs on, thinking I'll change my mind despite my certainty.)
77
MemeGene: Amazing how those people will always consider themselves to be in the right, even as they bully others to get what they want (marriage, kids).
Frankly, there are more important things in life, and if you cannot be up front with your partner about these issues at the start of the relationship, you are not emotionally ready to be in one, period.
Frankly, there are more important things in life, and if you cannot be up front with your partner about these issues at the start of the relationship, you are not emotionally ready to be in one, period.
78
Just remember that your fantasy life probably won't happen. Your child is going to be a whole, entire, different person, and whatever it is you imagine now will be entirely different. Don't stick to the best-case scenario.While I'm sure you're going to be great, he or she is going to be a surprise. That's pretty much guaranteed.
Oh, and you're going to be a lot poorer and a lot more in debt.
Oh, and you're going to be a lot poorer and a lot more in debt.
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