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News & ArtsMonday, March 7, 2011
Savage Love SLLOTD: Anger Mismanagement Issues
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 5:35 PM
My fiancé is awesome. We have awesome sex, he treats me like someone treats someone they are in love with. We act as partners in life and every night thank god or the universe or whatever that we found each other. It's extremely corny and hot and warm and squishy. I'm very happy we are getting married. We are in our early 30's.
BUT... since I've known him he has had moments of very bad behavior. He has tantrums. When he gets upset he literally throws things, punches things (never me) and yells obscenities at the top of his lungs. And what makes him upset like this? Losing his keys, forgetting his wallet, accidentally getting charged double at the supermarket as if he cashier had it out for him, and a big one is just missing the subway. These moments are humiliating for me and on top of that I had an angry abusive father who hit me and though my fiancé would never in a million years hit or abuse me, his tantrums remind me of those childhood experiences.
Anyway, I have tentatively broached the subject of his getting therapy (he is prescribed clonopin, smokes weed everyday, etc) but he is not interested. I am beginning to think I might have to insist on therapy. I cannot be around that behavior. It has exhausted my patience. I don't know what to do. He is very special to me and I think it's worth trying to find a solution.
Frustrated Fiancé
My response after the jump...
···············
He hasn't punched you... yet.
I'm not saying he'll definitely get around to punching you at some point, FF, but trusting a man who goes apeshit when he misses the subway or when a cashier makes an honest mistake not to go apeshit on you sooner or later is foolish in the extreme. Long-term relationships are a lot more stressful than commutes or exact change. And, I'm sorry, but it's a very disturbing sign that you're already tiptoeing around this guy ("I have tentatively broached the subject") and making excuses for him ("my fiancé would never in a million years hit or abuse me").
The time for "tentative broaching" has passed, FF, and now it's time for a little confrontational confronting. You need to issue an ultimatum: he gets his ass into therapy and gets a grip on his anger issues—and his possible substance-abuse issues—or the wedding is off. Period.
For your own sake, FF, you have to use the only leverage you have—your presence in his life—to get him into the therapy before you marry him—long before you marry him. This isn't about seeing a therapist once or twice to mollify you. He has to go and solve this problem before you marry him. And if he won't do it—if he won't go, if he won't solve this—don't marry him. And remember: divorce court, emergency rooms, and graveyards are filled with women who once said "my fiancé would never in a million years hit or abuse me."
Don't ignore the fwapping red flags.
2
Yes. You have covered this well in your podcast. A nice, long engagement with the opportunity for him to out himself if, indeed, he is an abuser is her only hope if she wants to stay with this dude.
Also, this SLLOTD exemplifies the point of a podcast caller a few months back, who noted that the biggest assholes are invariably introduced by their partner as "the most awesome person ever who treats me with love and respect and the most mindblowing orgasms of all time, BUT..."
Also, this SLLOTD exemplifies the point of a podcast caller a few months back, who noted that the biggest assholes are invariably introduced by their partner as "the most awesome person ever who treats me with love and respect and the most mindblowing orgasms of all time, BUT..."
5
Leave. Leave now, don't look back, and don't feel any guilt about leaving.
This behavior may not ever escalate into physical abuse, but it has already ventured into emotional abuse--you're afraid to confront him directly, you're humiliated. It's just a matter of time before it's something you do or say that pisses him off, and then it will escalate to verbal abuse.
Get. Out. Now.
This behavior may not ever escalate into physical abuse, but it has already ventured into emotional abuse--you're afraid to confront him directly, you're humiliated. It's just a matter of time before it's something you do or say that pisses him off, and then it will escalate to verbal abuse.
Get. Out. Now.
6
I gotta disagree with this response. The middle paragraph is all the advice she needs. Yes, she should insist on therapy, because he's emotionally harming her with his tantrums. But I wouldn't go so far to assure that he will eventually physically harm her.
My dad has always had anger issues and loses his shit over minor stuff, but he's never hit me, my mother, or my brother. I don't think it's an absolute guarantee that someone with a short temper will one day turn it on a person.
My dad has always had anger issues and loses his shit over minor stuff, but he's never hit me, my mother, or my brother. I don't think it's an absolute guarantee that someone with a short temper will one day turn it on a person.
7
Whoa. Check out the term "clonopin," which is actually "Klonopin" in the US or Clonazepam. If he's taking this and mixing it with weed, he's seriously wrecking his brain chemistry.
Leave, now. He's not the man you fell in love with and he's on the fast track to become your father.
Leave, now. He's not the man you fell in love with and he's on the fast track to become your father.
8
No one knows whether or not this guy (or anyone else for that matter) will punch someone, and until he does, that question is only a distraction from the problem he already has.
There are well established, effective therapies for dealing with anger. There are also some great books. Most of them focus on removing the shame associated with anger so that he can allow himself to feel it, empathize with himself, and thereby self sooth.
If you are planning on having kids, keep in mind that whatever humiliation you feel during these episodes is going to be much worse for them.
There are well established, effective therapies for dealing with anger. There are also some great books. Most of them focus on removing the shame associated with anger so that he can allow himself to feel it, empathize with himself, and thereby self sooth.
If you are planning on having kids, keep in mind that whatever humiliation you feel during these episodes is going to be much worse for them.
9
@ poster 6
As someone who's family has a long (as in, three generation) history of huge verbal tantrums, IT IS ABUSIVE. It is incredibly emotionally damaging and can OFTEN lead to further abuse.
DTMFA DTMFA DTMFA!!!!!
For your own safety and mental health
As someone who's family has a long (as in, three generation) history of huge verbal tantrums, IT IS ABUSIVE. It is incredibly emotionally damaging and can OFTEN lead to further abuse.
DTMFA DTMFA DTMFA!!!!!
For your own safety and mental health
10
@4 Agreed - although, FF should probably not be expected to seek that kind of help, considering her seeming lack of awareness that she even has this issue.
Nor is she aware that she is in a potentially abusive relationship - I mean, it's safe to assume, even though she avoids mentioning it, that his tantrums are sometimes directed at her. He would presumably throw one if she gave him Dan's proposed ultimatum.
Nor is she aware that she is in a potentially abusive relationship - I mean, it's safe to assume, even though she avoids mentioning it, that his tantrums are sometimes directed at her. He would presumably throw one if she gave him Dan's proposed ultimatum.
11
@7: Like most benzos, Klonopin mixes just fine with most party drugs except for alcohol, and it's very difficult to OD.
It is, however, highly addictive, and if you are taking it any more than 3 times a week, you may well develop a problem. Severe anxiety and depression are the most common withdrawal symptoms. Not sure about rage.
It is, however, highly addictive, and if you are taking it any more than 3 times a week, you may well develop a problem. Severe anxiety and depression are the most common withdrawal symptoms. Not sure about rage.
12
Very good advice, Dan. This guy absolutely has to get his issues under control before she marries him.
Personally I would never stay with someone who displayed such an extreme lack of self control.
Personally I would never stay with someone who displayed such an extreme lack of self control.
13
I grew up in a household where yelling was a daily activity on the part of my father, who has a ridiculously short temper. It. is. abuse. Took me moving halfway across the country and the experience of months-at-a-time without yelling in my life to realize how much it screwed me up when it was happening.
14
How can someone who smokes weed every day AND takes clonopin get so angry?! If he's this tempemental while heavily medicated, he's got serious issues. Imagine what happens when he stops taking the weed and the pharmaceuticals.
On top of the anger, I see a big drug problem that will get worse, too. Yeah, I like weed on occasion, and I also take clonopin once in a while for insomnia -- but to stress once in a while, because a) clonopin is VERY addictive and you become dependent on it when used frequently, and b) smoking weed daily is like getting drunk daily. Like alcohol, it's a social drug, and since no one ever takes one small toke with dinner the way you have a glass of wine, it should be used more sparingly.
So, here we have a guy who is abusing both pot and prescription meds, both meant to keep him sedate, and instead of being the zombie he should be, he still gets upset because he forgets things? And gee, maybe he wouldn't be so forgetful if he wasn't doped up all the time?
The drugs are a huge factor in this relationship. Dan overlooked it. Don't marry this guy until he deals with both the anger AND his drug dependence.
On top of the anger, I see a big drug problem that will get worse, too. Yeah, I like weed on occasion, and I also take clonopin once in a while for insomnia -- but to stress once in a while, because a) clonopin is VERY addictive and you become dependent on it when used frequently, and b) smoking weed daily is like getting drunk daily. Like alcohol, it's a social drug, and since no one ever takes one small toke with dinner the way you have a glass of wine, it should be used more sparingly.
So, here we have a guy who is abusing both pot and prescription meds, both meant to keep him sedate, and instead of being the zombie he should be, he still gets upset because he forgets things? And gee, maybe he wouldn't be so forgetful if he wasn't doped up all the time?
The drugs are a huge factor in this relationship. Dan overlooked it. Don't marry this guy until he deals with both the anger AND his drug dependence.
15
I don't know. I'm a woman, my husband is a man, and I'm the one who has major tantrums over tiny things. The anger is ALWAYS directed at an object (I throw and slam), never at a person. The fury rises intensely and very quickly when I'm stressed but also blows over very, very quickly - within a few minutes. Something about that satisfying physical crash (of a door, an object down on a table, etc) helps dissipate the anger, I guess.
My husband hates it, and thinks it's childish (it is). But when we have fights, or when our kids make me crazy, I yell or make snarky comments but don't even come close to harming a person.
I don't take any mind alterers except a single glass of wine or beer in the evening. Should I be taking something to make me not snap into rage that quickly subsides? I think my family just knows that mom's losing it again and it will pass in a minute. Is this why half my friends are on Paxil?!
Anyway, my own tantrums aside: would the advice to DTMFA be similar if the genders in this letter were switched?
My husband hates it, and thinks it's childish (it is). But when we have fights, or when our kids make me crazy, I yell or make snarky comments but don't even come close to harming a person.
I don't take any mind alterers except a single glass of wine or beer in the evening. Should I be taking something to make me not snap into rage that quickly subsides? I think my family just knows that mom's losing it again and it will pass in a minute. Is this why half my friends are on Paxil?!
Anyway, my own tantrums aside: would the advice to DTMFA be similar if the genders in this letter were switched?
16
About a year ago, a dear friend said to me, "...but even though he gets upset and breaks things, he always replaces them. And if he ever hit me, which he would never, I'd leave him on the spot."
Well, he hit her, and he's hit her again since, and there she remains.
FF, if you don't have the guts to march his ass to therapy today, you won't have the guts to leave him tomorrow.
Well, he hit her, and he's hit her again since, and there she remains.
FF, if you don't have the guts to march his ass to therapy today, you won't have the guts to leave him tomorrow.
17
@Donna - yes, you *should* be taking something/seeing someone about your anger (or more precisely, how you act on it), and no, the DTMFA is genderblind. I grew up with a mom who was the same as you... the yelling, the snarky comments, the mood swings, explosive anger. Never laid a hand on me. And it took me forever to figure out what that had done to me. Your behavior is abusive. Period. Don't wait until your kid is 35 and finally comes to terms with his childhood and tells you "hey, Mom, by the way... you kinda fucked with my head with all that crap you pulled."
18
He reminds you of your abusive father. You want him to be the father of your kids?!? My father is the same way - loses his temper and breaks things over stupid crap. But at least he had the self control to hide that from my mother until they were already married. (My mother thought he would mellow out for the kids. Wrong!) Your guy can't even do that. He needs to get his ass into therapy, and he needs to get better BEFORE you set a date to marry him. If he can't get better, DTMF.
@Donna "would the advice to DTMFA be similar if the genders in this letter were switched?" Absolutely. Consider therapy. Your kids will thank you for it.
@Donna "would the advice to DTMFA be similar if the genders in this letter were switched?" Absolutely. Consider therapy. Your kids will thank you for it.
19
@4 -- Agreed.
@6 -- It's not a guarantee, but she still needs to recognize the genuine danger here. Not every trip in the car turns into a wreck, but we still buckle our seatbelts just in case. If she doesn't acknowledge that there's a definite risk that his rage could turn on her, she'll never push hard enough to get help for him.
And as a side-note, being a regular weed smoker doesn't help people with anger issues. My colossal douchebag of a brother sounds a lot like the LW's fiance and he gets high constantly. Generally, if anything frustrates him even in the slightest, he has one of two responses: rage and break things, or get so wasted (either high or drunk) that he doesn't care. And sometimes I think he sets himself up for frustration just for the excuse to lash out (because he likes knowing he intimidates people) or get high (he really likes being high).
She needs to insist. She needs to set down an ultimatum that he gets therapy or she leaves. And she needs to stick to it.
@6 -- It's not a guarantee, but she still needs to recognize the genuine danger here. Not every trip in the car turns into a wreck, but we still buckle our seatbelts just in case. If she doesn't acknowledge that there's a definite risk that his rage could turn on her, she'll never push hard enough to get help for him.
And as a side-note, being a regular weed smoker doesn't help people with anger issues. My colossal douchebag of a brother sounds a lot like the LW's fiance and he gets high constantly. Generally, if anything frustrates him even in the slightest, he has one of two responses: rage and break things, or get so wasted (either high or drunk) that he doesn't care. And sometimes I think he sets himself up for frustration just for the excuse to lash out (because he likes knowing he intimidates people) or get high (he really likes being high).
She needs to insist. She needs to set down an ultimatum that he gets therapy or she leaves. And she needs to stick to it.
20
Good luck suggesting therapy...
I was with an amazing, awesome guy I thought was my lifelong mate, etc. etc. except for these small anger problems... Like banging his head against things when he was upset, or screaming at the top of his lungs.
Eventually the issue of therapy was brought up. I had already been going on my own, and suggested he try individual therapy as well for a while before we jumped into couples.
His response was that he didn't need individual therapy, because it was only our relationship (aka, me) that created such rage in him.
So... suggest therapy. Just prepare yourself for a good defense against the charge that something is wrong with you, not him.
I was with an amazing, awesome guy I thought was my lifelong mate, etc. etc. except for these small anger problems... Like banging his head against things when he was upset, or screaming at the top of his lungs.
Eventually the issue of therapy was brought up. I had already been going on my own, and suggested he try individual therapy as well for a while before we jumped into couples.
His response was that he didn't need individual therapy, because it was only our relationship (aka, me) that created such rage in him.
So... suggest therapy. Just prepare yourself for a good defense against the charge that something is wrong with you, not him.
22
@15: Not all yelling is the same. Someone close to me grew up with a father who had extreme and unpredictable tantrums, sometimes in public, often in response to fairly trivial things. He never hit his wife, but he hit the kids and left them thoroughly traumatized. Worst of all, he never apologized for or even acknowledged his behavior. When he was done, he pretended it never happened.
My dad did some yelling , but it was always in response to bad behavior (especially lying - he hated that), never in public, and everyone would always make up and say sorry afterwards.
My advice to you - at a minimum, apologize for your behavior to your kids, and acknowledge whatever emotions it might trigger in them. That will go a long way towards helping them deal with it.
My dad did some yelling , but it was always in response to bad behavior (especially lying - he hated that), never in public, and everyone would always make up and say sorry afterwards.
My advice to you - at a minimum, apologize for your behavior to your kids, and acknowledge whatever emotions it might trigger in them. That will go a long way towards helping them deal with it.
23
If he's "borderline personality" (and I realize that's getting to be a cliche these days) then he doesn't take it out on her because she is not capable of doing wrong in his eyes.
Until the day that he switches. And instead of being the perfect woman in his eyes, she will become the most horrible person ever in his eyes. Just like the cashier.
Until the day that he switches. And instead of being the perfect woman in his eyes, she will become the most horrible person ever in his eyes. Just like the cashier.
24
DO NOT MARRY HIM UNLESS HE GETS HELP. And even then, I'd give it a good long time, with proof that the tantrums had stopped. They are not ok, they are not minor. It doesn't matter how nice a guy he is the rest of the time, when those tantrums happen he is a monster. You deserve—and should demand—better.
25
RUN. Lady, this man sounds like my Dad. He was never physically abusive, and could be wonderfully warm and loving one minute, but the second he could turn ugly for simple, stupid stuff (like losing his keys, too). He also to this day will not go to therapy. After living for 18 years always looking over my shoulder for the next tantrum, I wouldn't wish it on anyone. These scary, humiliating outbursts WILL kill your spirit ans any affection you ever felt for him.
26
Fwapping Red Flags, apparently fwapping is mastubating according to the best and most reliable online dictionary, that being the Urban Dictionary.
27
Holy crap, FF. RUN. He's taking things that calm down the average person - ABUSING substances that are used to moderate emotions - and he's still freaking out over lost keys?
Look, verbal abuse is verbal abuse. I've suffered a steady diet and I should know. Pack up, and run. Don't even consider taking him back unless he goes to therapy, gets his ass medicated properly and stops freaking out.
Although honestly, it sounds like you're already in too deep, with the excuses you're making for him. Oh, well.
Look, verbal abuse is verbal abuse. I've suffered a steady diet and I should know. Pack up, and run. Don't even consider taking him back unless he goes to therapy, gets his ass medicated properly and stops freaking out.
Although honestly, it sounds like you're already in too deep, with the excuses you're making for him. Oh, well.
28
My father prided himself on never "laying a hand" on my mother. And he never punched or slapped or physically hurt her, only terrorized her for the 15 years they were married. An adult person capable of a loving, non-abusive relationship does not behave this way. It doesn't fucking matter if he touches you or not. It's unacceptable. He might need therapy to understand that and change his anger management and or chemical imbalances but FF NEEDS therapy to understand why, after growing up with an abusive father, she finds herself with a guy who demonstrates similar behavior, that she is willing to tolerate and make excuses for.
29
I'm the product of an abusive household, though my dad never laid a hand on me. He never had to, because his anger kept me in fear of him. My mom would point out, actually, that he never hit me, and I was in my twenties before I pointed out that listing all the awful things a person could be doing that they don't do - just that one awful thing, no big deal - isn't exactly a glowing endorsement. And I finally refused to be grateful that he never hit me. That's called Stockholm Syndrome.
Thing is, my mom is still so deep in it, it's hard not to be angry with her. She never once protected me, because again, he wasn't hitting me. But my dad finally did get help; after 35 years of marriage and two kids, my mother told him if he didn't get it together, she was leaving.
He hit my brother. My brother was 16, and I was there for it. My mom had to pull me off my father. And I don't remember much of it, other than thinking he'd hurt us for the last time.
Whether he leaves marks on you or not, he's damaging you. I can't tell you the damage my dad has done to me - it runs too deep. You know how abuse fucks up kids. It'll fuck you up so much you'll blame yourself, and if you have kids, you'll blame them. Don't allow this cycle to continue: issue that ultimatum, then stick by it.
Thing is, my mom is still so deep in it, it's hard not to be angry with her. She never once protected me, because again, he wasn't hitting me. But my dad finally did get help; after 35 years of marriage and two kids, my mother told him if he didn't get it together, she was leaving.
He hit my brother. My brother was 16, and I was there for it. My mom had to pull me off my father. And I don't remember much of it, other than thinking he'd hurt us for the last time.
Whether he leaves marks on you or not, he's damaging you. I can't tell you the damage my dad has done to me - it runs too deep. You know how abuse fucks up kids. It'll fuck you up so much you'll blame yourself, and if you have kids, you'll blame them. Don't allow this cycle to continue: issue that ultimatum, then stick by it.
30
I'm slightly frightened at how much this letter matches up with my situation, right down to "But he would never, ever hurt me." It's given me a lot to think about.
31
Don't bother with therapy. Just move on.
There is a chance he could lose it and hurt you later. But that's not the big danger. The big danger is you love him and marry him and realize that each tantrum, each outburst, each immature angry display is like a little wound to your relationship and a little love bleeds out every time until all you have left is a scarred husk of empty unfeeling deadness punctuated only by your own anger and resentment at him for ruining it and your regret at the years you wasted waiting for him to change.
That's how you end up. And your kids, if you have them, will be damaged. Emotionally, for sure. Maybe in other ways too.
You only have one life. Don't waste it on this guy. His wonderfulness will fade fast enough when you're married. His anger will remain. Take it from someone who used to be you.
There is a chance he could lose it and hurt you later. But that's not the big danger. The big danger is you love him and marry him and realize that each tantrum, each outburst, each immature angry display is like a little wound to your relationship and a little love bleeds out every time until all you have left is a scarred husk of empty unfeeling deadness punctuated only by your own anger and resentment at him for ruining it and your regret at the years you wasted waiting for him to change.
That's how you end up. And your kids, if you have them, will be damaged. Emotionally, for sure. Maybe in other ways too.
You only have one life. Don't waste it on this guy. His wonderfulness will fade fast enough when you're married. His anger will remain. Take it from someone who used to be you.
32
Also, Donna, trust me when I say your kids don't think mom's losing it again. I never thought my dad was losing again - I can only imagine that the building tension was like hiding in a bomb shelter waiting for the explosion. I was terrified of my father till I was 15, and then I hated him for another 10 years. I don't think my brother will ever forgive him. Kids don't just understand that mom's losing it again. They understand that mom is scary and mean. That's all I knew about my dad.
Get help, honey. It's not normal. Your kids deserve to live in a house where no one throws things.
Get help, honey. It's not normal. Your kids deserve to live in a house where no one throws things.
33
Therapy yesterday, absolutely, but not for him.
And keep a safe bag packed.
www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/…;
And keep a safe bag packed.
www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/…;
35
Run the fuck away from this piece of shit.
Like numerous others who have already commented, my father was a verbally abusive asshole. He created a toxic living environment for everyone. And you know what? I am a mellow guy who has to check himself every now and then because I find my temper occasionally going that route. Thanks dad for that one.
I ask you, do you want to raise neurotic, fucked up kids? If so, then go right ahead and marry the bastard and pop out a couple of kids who will hate their lives. Yeah, best thing you can do...
Like numerous others who have already commented, my father was a verbally abusive asshole. He created a toxic living environment for everyone. And you know what? I am a mellow guy who has to check himself every now and then because I find my temper occasionally going that route. Thanks dad for that one.
I ask you, do you want to raise neurotic, fucked up kids? If so, then go right ahead and marry the bastard and pop out a couple of kids who will hate their lives. Yeah, best thing you can do...
36
every girl want's to marry and fuck daddy , so she got what she wanted . the truth is he probly has a big dick and makes her cum , she's not going any where .
37
I'd DTMFA, but if not, he needs to admit he has a problem handling his emotions, and he needs to seriously get to work with a therapist, with sustained results.
Also: I can say from painful experience that the letter writer needs to remind herself that his anger management is not her problem or project. She can't be too invested in his success or she'll convince herself he's changed even if he hasn't. This even if he sincerely wants to change, or say's he's changed. She has to stop worrying about his outbursts before they can really evaluate the relationship.
Last note: this is kind of verbal abuse is gender neutral, women can be just as violent and men can be just as damaged by it.
I'd DTMFA, but if not, he needs to admit he has a problem handling his emotions, and he needs to seriously get to work with a therapist, with sustained results.
Also: I can say from painful experience that the letter writer needs to remind herself that his anger management is not her problem or project. She can't be too invested in his success or she'll convince herself he's changed even if he hasn't. This even if he sincerely wants to change, or say's he's changed. She has to stop worrying about his outbursts before they can really evaluate the relationship.
Last note: this is kind of verbal abuse is gender neutral, women can be just as violent and men can be just as damaged by it.
39
Without going into any details I can safely say that this isn't going to end well unless she leaves. Like many posters here I also grew up in a household where dad 'only' mentally abused everyone. They've been divorced for over 20 years but my mum is still coping with the aftermath.
Note to Donna @15: You're aware of your behaviour and choosing not to do anything about it. Your children & probably your husband may be saying 'oh mom's at it again' and laughing but you're abusing them and you need to stop. Now.
Note to Donna @15: You're aware of your behaviour and choosing not to do anything about it. Your children & probably your husband may be saying 'oh mom's at it again' and laughing but you're abusing them and you need to stop. Now.
40
Love is validation. Tell him when you see him get mad, then you feel he doesn't feel validated, and you don't know why. That literally seems to be the case. He's missing out on the benefit of the relationship, and you are rightfully considering finding someone who won't miss out by receiving what you have to give.
And if you're not curious why he doesn't feel validated, so much the better for him when you leave.
And if you're not curious why he doesn't feel validated, so much the better for him when you leave.
41
Seriously, #15, you aren't harming anyone? Do you have any idea how scary it is for a child to have one of the people they're supposed to be able to depend on freak out violently over what you admit are tiny things? Adults don't have 'tantrums', they have issues dealing with anger.
You DO need to do something, whether it is seek counseling or get on medication. You're doing the easy thing- instead of examining why you have insane outbursts, you just act like a two year old. That may work for you, but you're in a relationship and have children, so you very much have an obligation to do the hard/ unpleasant thing and look into what makes it so you can't deal like an adult. And find out how you can learn to deal like an adult.
Children shouldn't have to deal with a parent flipping out violently and suddenly over tiny things. It's scary for even an adult to have to live with someone who snaps all the time, slamming & throwing things. It's much worse for kids, and you are SO FUCKING WRONG if you think it isn't affecting them.
You DO need to do something, whether it is seek counseling or get on medication. You're doing the easy thing- instead of examining why you have insane outbursts, you just act like a two year old. That may work for you, but you're in a relationship and have children, so you very much have an obligation to do the hard/ unpleasant thing and look into what makes it so you can't deal like an adult. And find out how you can learn to deal like an adult.
Children shouldn't have to deal with a parent flipping out violently and suddenly over tiny things. It's scary for even an adult to have to live with someone who snaps all the time, slamming & throwing things. It's much worse for kids, and you are SO FUCKING WRONG if you think it isn't affecting them.
42
I have to wonder how effective the "get therapy or I leave" ultimatum is. Anyone actually have experience with this? It seems to me that "stop throwing tantrums or I leave" might be more to the point.
43
Record him when he's acting this way. I use to have a similar personality but I never realized it until my partner showed me what an idiot I acted like. With therapy I realized it stemmed from my perfectionist personality. While I know my behavioral change improved the life of those around me, it radically improved mine. The need for perfection & my ridiculous reaction to that need was taking a toll I never realized. I have more energy & enjoy life more. I didn't require meds & have been a happier, healthier person the past 8 years. I'm thankful my partner cared enough to show me how absurd I was behaving.
44
Also, the letter writer is fucked. It's easy to say, "DTMFA", or tell him to get therapy or she'll leave, but we all know she isn't going to do that. She most likely isn't going to get therapy herself, either. If she does tell him to get therapy or else, chances are he'll give her some smooshy apology and reel back the psycho fits for a while. Or he might even convince her that getting married sooner will solve the problem!
There's a reason divorce courts and hospitals and graveyards are filled with women like her. Not blaming the victim, just saying people do what's easy and it's easy to stay with the familiar. It's hard to end something that's otherwise perfect except for one horrible issue- especially when that one horrible issue doesn't come up all the time. Or when that horrible issue isn't that horrible because after all he doesn't HIT her. After all he's just going psycho on OTHER PEOPLE. After all it's probably her fault for making him mad when she knew he was stressed out. After all a million other bullshit excuses.
She's fucked. I'd really LOVE to hear from the other party. It would be VERY interesting to hear what Mr. Rage Issues has to say about the situation. But I'm guessing the letter writer tiptoes around his rage issues and wouldn't want to set him off by letting him know it bothers her enough that she wrote into an advice columnist about it.
There's a reason divorce courts and hospitals and graveyards are filled with women like her. Not blaming the victim, just saying people do what's easy and it's easy to stay with the familiar. It's hard to end something that's otherwise perfect except for one horrible issue- especially when that one horrible issue doesn't come up all the time. Or when that horrible issue isn't that horrible because after all he doesn't HIT her. After all he's just going psycho on OTHER PEOPLE. After all it's probably her fault for making him mad when she knew he was stressed out. After all a million other bullshit excuses.
She's fucked. I'd really LOVE to hear from the other party. It would be VERY interesting to hear what Mr. Rage Issues has to say about the situation. But I'm guessing the letter writer tiptoes around his rage issues and wouldn't want to set him off by letting him know it bothers her enough that she wrote into an advice columnist about it.
45
Also:
People often talk as if getting therapy is a solution to this sort of problem. It is not. It is just one means of finding a solution. The LW's fiancee has to decide for himself that he needs and wants to change, or it's all for naught.
Therapy can also be very expensive. It sounds like this couple probably has the means, but many people in this situation don't. There are other ways of learning to manage your anger on your own - meditation and breathing exercises, for instance.
People often talk as if getting therapy is a solution to this sort of problem. It is not. It is just one means of finding a solution. The LW's fiancee has to decide for himself that he needs and wants to change, or it's all for naught.
Therapy can also be very expensive. It sounds like this couple probably has the means, but many people in this situation don't. There are other ways of learning to manage your anger on your own - meditation and breathing exercises, for instance.
46
I would agree with Dan's advice 100% except... except...
That makes me say, GET OUT OF THERE, STAT.
And get yourself into therapy to avoid picking out another guy like your father. If that's what you grew up with, chances are very good that's what you're unconsciously going for, "the familiar" even if you hate it.
I had an angry abusive father who hit me
That makes me say, GET OUT OF THERE, STAT.
And get yourself into therapy to avoid picking out another guy like your father. If that's what you grew up with, chances are very good that's what you're unconsciously going for, "the familiar" even if you hate it.
48
Ahhhh! Add another voice to the been-there-done-that crowd. My dad yelled, screamed, threw shit, and I was *terrified* of him. He NEVER hit me, or my mother, but I was still scared shitless nonetheless. His unpredictability made me constantly walk on eggshells and the anxiety that it built is still a lovely legacy.
Though he's dead and I'm all grown up, his behavior still impacts me every damned day. Why am I so friggin intolerant? Because I'll never ever ever let another person mistreat me. Why must I keep such a choke collar on my negative emotions? Because my anger is truly scary and menacing and no one deserves to be afraid of the one one they love. Why did it take for-fucking-ever for me to be comfortable getting close in a relationship? Because beneath it all I am afraid I'm a cold and ruthless bitch who will never be able to let down my guard.
Like some other people have said - DON'T have children with this guy. If you want to be in an abusive home, fine. You're grown and you get to make that decision. DO NOT put defenseless, unwilling children in the mix. Then you'd be an abused woman *and* an abuser.
Though he's dead and I'm all grown up, his behavior still impacts me every damned day. Why am I so friggin intolerant? Because I'll never ever ever let another person mistreat me. Why must I keep such a choke collar on my negative emotions? Because my anger is truly scary and menacing and no one deserves to be afraid of the one one they love. Why did it take for-fucking-ever for me to be comfortable getting close in a relationship? Because beneath it all I am afraid I'm a cold and ruthless bitch who will never be able to let down my guard.
Like some other people have said - DON'T have children with this guy. If you want to be in an abusive home, fine. You're grown and you get to make that decision. DO NOT put defenseless, unwilling children in the mix. Then you'd be an abused woman *and* an abuser.
50
Raising hand for grew up with moody and rage-filled father as well. I was about to say he never hit either, but that isn't *entirely* true. He never hit my mom (that I know of), but there were some "spankings" of my siblings and me that would have him arrested these days and there is a demonic look on his face during one that is burned into my mind. I loved my father tremendously, and the awful thing is that he is so much more than this. But THIS infected everything else. I was never comfortable in my own home. We could never trust that home wasn't about to turn awful, although the majority of the time we could be a happy family. I got out in a huge mess but I had to do it and although a lot of healing has taken place, my relationship with my father will always be walled off in some respects. He hurt me a lot with his anger. Me most of all because I was the oldest and most tuned in to him as a child.
Here's the thing: he did this for so long because no one ever made him stop. My mother thought she had to submit. We all had to walk on eggshells and try not to provoke him. He was always remorseful, although that usually took the form of an extensive wallowing in self-hatred. He kept up this behavior because no one was going to leave him over it. He was *entitled* to his anger.
Here's the thing: he did this for so long because no one ever made him stop. My mother thought she had to submit. We all had to walk on eggshells and try not to provoke him. He was always remorseful, although that usually took the form of an extensive wallowing in self-hatred. He kept up this behavior because no one was going to leave him over it. He was *entitled* to his anger.
51
As someone who grew up with two parents that moved from verbal violence to physical violence and I was a regular target, I think you both need help. I can't see your future, FF, but your story is a lot like many women that I worked with in DV support and counseling. He needs counseling for his anger, his displays of anger are emotionally abusive. And, you dear, need counseling for the abuse you suffered in the past and to understand why you are willing to enter into a marriage with someone who has you walking on eggshells. You cannot love, soothe, or sympatheize his problem away.
52
DTMFA, then find yourself a good therapist. You deserve to not be scared shitless when your lover loses his keys. Really.
53
@ 42- I have. He took an online anger management class... and almost finished it. He learned nothing except that "I shouldn't provoke him" and that if he is pissed off I should back down/back off and leave him alone. Seriously.
We did couples therapy, for the express purpose of dealing with this issue. There was some improvement. It was minor, and temporary.
The tough thing was, he really wanted to change. He was sincere in his efforts. I am convinced he suffers from a personality disorder, but he has far, far too much pride (and too much pissed-off bullshit spinning around upstairs) to ever acknowledge it or seek treatment.
After he failed repeatedly at addressing it, he felt worse and was unbearably pissed off and ashamed of himself.
All that said, its been 5 months since we split up- and I miss him terribly. Wounded people, and sick people, are not villains without any redeeming qualities. They can also be the most soulful, loving, amazing partners. It's not just because its comfortable, or its easier- it's because there was real love and support and connection there.
It's really good for me to read this thread right now. I wasn't going to go back, but I've wondered if I did the right thing. Thanks everyone for your comments.
We did couples therapy, for the express purpose of dealing with this issue. There was some improvement. It was minor, and temporary.
The tough thing was, he really wanted to change. He was sincere in his efforts. I am convinced he suffers from a personality disorder, but he has far, far too much pride (and too much pissed-off bullshit spinning around upstairs) to ever acknowledge it or seek treatment.
After he failed repeatedly at addressing it, he felt worse and was unbearably pissed off and ashamed of himself.
All that said, its been 5 months since we split up- and I miss him terribly. Wounded people, and sick people, are not villains without any redeeming qualities. They can also be the most soulful, loving, amazing partners. It's not just because its comfortable, or its easier- it's because there was real love and support and connection there.
It's really good for me to read this thread right now. I wasn't going to go back, but I've wondered if I did the right thing. Thanks everyone for your comments.
54
Overcoming a bad temper (for the person who has it, I mean) requires immense humility, persistence, and courage. "Doesn't think he needs therapy" isn't exactly the best starting point.
Maybe she needs to think of drawing this line as something she needs to do for him, too.
Personally if I ever make someone I love that miserable, I hope to God they have the guts to give me an ultimatum and leave me if I don't change.
Maybe she needs to think of drawing this line as something she needs to do for him, too.
Personally if I ever make someone I love that miserable, I hope to God they have the guts to give me an ultimatum and leave me if I don't change.
55
@53:
Thanks for the response.
And trust me - you did the right thing. In that kind of situation, it's a moot point whether your partner has good intentions, or what their redeeming qualities are. The point is self-preservation - the famous Ann Landers question ("am I better off with or without him/her?") still applies. You left him because you were better off without him, not because you were judging him as a bad person.
Thanks for the response.
And trust me - you did the right thing. In that kind of situation, it's a moot point whether your partner has good intentions, or what their redeeming qualities are. The point is self-preservation - the famous Ann Landers question ("am I better off with or without him/her?") still applies. You left him because you were better off without him, not because you were judging him as a bad person.
56
LW--
GET OUT. NOW. Unless you want a repeat performance of your abusive father, DTMFA and get out.
If not....
If you are living with him, get yourself an apartment. If you have a joint bank account, get your own bank account and only put in the JBA what you need for couple things. Go to individual therapy first--not couples therapy, because he's used to steamrolling over you, and unless you have on hell of a therapist, you're going to get a whole bunch of sessions focusing on what you can do to not make him blow up, rather than fixing the problem (why does he refuse to take control of his behaviour). Go to individual therapy anyway, it'll help you.
Also, what #52 said.
GET OUT. NOW. Unless you want a repeat performance of your abusive father, DTMFA and get out.
If not....
If you are living with him, get yourself an apartment. If you have a joint bank account, get your own bank account and only put in the JBA what you need for couple things. Go to individual therapy first--not couples therapy, because he's used to steamrolling over you, and unless you have on hell of a therapist, you're going to get a whole bunch of sessions focusing on what you can do to not make him blow up, rather than fixing the problem (why does he refuse to take control of his behaviour). Go to individual therapy anyway, it'll help you.
Also, what #52 said.
57
I never, ever get angry or violent or anything more than frustrated. EXCEPT when I was on benzos for about six months, prescribed by a doctor. I never got violent at anyone else, but I was such a brat.
I think you should just dump him, too, regardless if it's because of the pills (it probably isn't). Anyone should have dumped me during that time. You don't deserve to be around that.
I think you should just dump him, too, regardless if it's because of the pills (it probably isn't). Anyone should have dumped me during that time. You don't deserve to be around that.
58
@15 if tables were turned, i would have had the same reaction abuse is not gender neutral and as for you you need to go into therapy ASAP, you are already abusing and hurting your children and husband ... you can not probably (and possibly) fathom how long this minute is for your children and husband.
60
I just want to offer my <3 to everyone who has come out and said about their own abusive households. I was "never hit", and I'm still in therapy. Might be for the rest of my life.
But to know I'm not alone, to know that I'm not weak and this affects other people just as much... it means a lot. So, thank you, everyone.
But to know I'm not alone, to know that I'm not weak and this affects other people just as much... it means a lot. So, thank you, everyone.
61
@LW:
My last relationship wasn't very dissimilar to yours, only much shorter. I also grew up with an abusive, violent alcoholic of a father and violence is a TOTAL DEALBREAKER for me.
My ex spent 300-400 a week on an extremely-potent weed habit--truly massive consumption. He was chronically (heh, puns) depressed and used pot as a crutch. We got along really well, though, and I truly loved him starting about 6 months in to the relationship.
He never hit me, I wouldn't have allowed it. But the very first time I got an inkling of his violent tendencies was when he threatened his temporarily-physically-incapacitated brother with a kitchen mallet. Then afterward, he totally disclaimed responsibility for it because his brother was "ordering him around" (asking for ice packs for his knee and help to the bathroom) and "made him" do it... his brother was possibly being annoying, but the weaponry was entirely one-sided. So I called it quits. (there's a lot more to the story than this, of course, but this post is long enough already)
The funny thing is, when I broke up with him I had a good number of people telling me I was crazy: he never threatened me; I wasn't being fair; he was high at the time so I shouldn't blame him (well guys, he's always high. at what point should I hold him accountable for his actions?).
My mother, who survived my father's substance, emotional, and physical abuse, was one of only two people who said I did the right thing (and I trust her badboy-dar the most). The indication of latent explosive anger was absolutely a dealbreaker, even in an otherwise loving relationship. He loved me, but he also loved his brother. If he could do that to his brother, he could do it (or worse) to me someday. No thanks!
It's also said that you can tell more about a person's character by how they treat their inferiors than their equals. Clearly your fiance has no respect for cashiers... that's indicative.
More...
My last relationship wasn't very dissimilar to yours, only much shorter. I also grew up with an abusive, violent alcoholic of a father and violence is a TOTAL DEALBREAKER for me.
My ex spent 300-400 a week on an extremely-potent weed habit--truly massive consumption. He was chronically (heh, puns) depressed and used pot as a crutch. We got along really well, though, and I truly loved him starting about 6 months in to the relationship.
He never hit me, I wouldn't have allowed it. But the very first time I got an inkling of his violent tendencies was when he threatened his temporarily-physically-incapacitated brother with a kitchen mallet. Then afterward, he totally disclaimed responsibility for it because his brother was "ordering him around" (asking for ice packs for his knee and help to the bathroom) and "made him" do it... his brother was possibly being annoying, but the weaponry was entirely one-sided. So I called it quits. (there's a lot more to the story than this, of course, but this post is long enough already)
The funny thing is, when I broke up with him I had a good number of people telling me I was crazy: he never threatened me; I wasn't being fair; he was high at the time so I shouldn't blame him (well guys, he's always high. at what point should I hold him accountable for his actions?).
My mother, who survived my father's substance, emotional, and physical abuse, was one of only two people who said I did the right thing (and I trust her badboy-dar the most). The indication of latent explosive anger was absolutely a dealbreaker, even in an otherwise loving relationship. He loved me, but he also loved his brother. If he could do that to his brother, he could do it (or worse) to me someday. No thanks!
It's also said that you can tell more about a person's character by how they treat their inferiors than their equals. Clearly your fiance has no respect for cashiers... that's indicative.
62
FF, you deny being afraid he'll hit you, but if his outbursts brings you back to bad childhood memories, in effect, you are afraid he will.
His outbursts over minutia might be his own way of stifling his own complaints over a bigger issue, just as you've been stifling your own complaints. If that's the case, he's entitled to know your relationship might not be what he thinks it is. That you each aren't allowing you your accounts of what you're going through. You need to find out if your relationship is like a reverse Gift of the Magi. Then all the DTMFA advice applies.
His outbursts over minutia might be his own way of stifling his own complaints over a bigger issue, just as you've been stifling your own complaints. If that's the case, he's entitled to know your relationship might not be what he thinks it is. That you each aren't allowing you your accounts of what you're going through. You need to find out if your relationship is like a reverse Gift of the Magi. Then all the DTMFA advice applies.
64
LW: You should be aware that domestic abuse often escalates after couples marry, or after the woman gets pregnant. See: http://www.totaldivorce.com/news/article… and http://www.babycenter.com/0_domestic-vio… Are you really ready to make a lifetime commitment with this man in the hopes that "he would never lay a hand on me"? What if you two have children? Are you aware that controlling partners often sabotage birth control in hopes of tying a woman down with a baby?
This man is already so volatile that you feel you can only "tentatively" talk about how childish and destructive his behavior is. That indicates he's already being emotionally abusive toward you. Mark my words, once he feels he's got you fully in his clutches, it will not get better. It will most likely get worse.
Dump. The. Motherfucker. Already!
This man is already so volatile that you feel you can only "tentatively" talk about how childish and destructive his behavior is. That indicates he's already being emotionally abusive toward you. Mark my words, once he feels he's got you fully in his clutches, it will not get better. It will most likely get worse.
Dump. The. Motherfucker. Already!
65
You are describing my EXACT situation, except we were in our mid-20s, my guy didn't smoke weed and wasn't prescribed klonopin and...evenually...he started attacking me. He didn't hit me at first -- it begins more gradually than that. During his stupid shitfuck little tantrums he will rip apart your stuff, shout humiliating and degrading things at you, maybe shove you if you get in his way. He doesn't seem fundamentally like a sadist or a sociopath, and he isn't -- he's always wracked with genuine crippling guilt afterwards. Occasionally he'll even cry. But he never learned to properly control himself and acts like an outraged fucking child whenever anything doesn't go his way. And he needs to vent this in some hostile fashion and it's only a matter of time before it becomes increasingly about you. After the verbal abuse and destruction of property stage, my then-fiance moved on to punching me, choking me, and (on one occasion) brandishing a knife at me. Things got to where even between tantrums, I would flinch when he walked up behind me, dread coming home at night and sometimes start crying in the middle of the day for no reason. I was determined not to be one of "those" women who put up with this shit and eventually, during one of our "arguments" (him chasing me around the apartment trying to tackle and beat me after throwing my blackberry and laptop against a wall -- this was the fourth laptop he'd destroyed), i just felt like I snapped (i know that sounds stupid and cliche) and i stabbed him instead. And when I did, you know what I felt? Immense euphoria and satisfaction. He fucking deserved it. I loved him more than I'd ever loved anyone and yet I still feel that way. I wasn't arrested or anything and he's fine, but it was not a happy ending. No matter how much you love him, you can't imagine how much better your life will be once you aren't constantly living under this cloud. I think my blood pressure has actually improved. I sleep better. Things I never even connected with this asshole, problems I never knew I had -- they vanished. So, in conclusion, stab your fiance. (Well, not really. But break up with him).
More...
67
@Donna: Yes, you should get therapy.
Also, the advice IS genderblind, but the fact remains that men have more societal power and most abusers, particularly physical abusers, are men. That doesn't mean women are never abusive (as you have demonstrated), just that that is less common. I don't really see the point of your question.
Also, the advice IS genderblind, but the fact remains that men have more societal power and most abusers, particularly physical abusers, are men. That doesn't mean women are never abusive (as you have demonstrated), just that that is less common. I don't really see the point of your question.
68
@6 Same here.
My parents both have massive emotional issues. My dad flips out and throws tantrums when he fixes things around the house or if he gets frustrated with my mom's clutter. You can hear him yelling over the riding mower from inside the house when he mows the lawn- that's how bad his tantrums are. My mom gets into screaming matches with her mom and sister. I do think that some of what they did qualifies as emotional and mental abuse, but they weren't monsters- just a bit crazy.
I'm not saying the guy doesn't need therapy or anger management help, but if he doesn't show other indicators of an abusive personality he's probably unlikely to ever escalate to physical abuse. If he's not controlling or abusive in other ways then he probably just has some issues he needs to unpack in therapy. If he won't get therapy though, yeah, dump him.
My parents both have massive emotional issues. My dad flips out and throws tantrums when he fixes things around the house or if he gets frustrated with my mom's clutter. You can hear him yelling over the riding mower from inside the house when he mows the lawn- that's how bad his tantrums are. My mom gets into screaming matches with her mom and sister. I do think that some of what they did qualifies as emotional and mental abuse, but they weren't monsters- just a bit crazy.
I'm not saying the guy doesn't need therapy or anger management help, but if he doesn't show other indicators of an abusive personality he's probably unlikely to ever escalate to physical abuse. If he's not controlling or abusive in other ways then he probably just has some issues he needs to unpack in therapy. If he won't get therapy though, yeah, dump him.
69
@ Donna - Please get therapy. Your behavior isn't childish, it's abusive and unacceptable. Do it now, for your family's sake. People can get used to anything, and doing so can seriously mess them up. Please don't let your kids grow up thinking this is normal, or acceptable. Get the therapy now, save them the therapy later.
@Fiance - I married a guy who suddenly started acting like yours. I begged/asked/pleaded/threatened/bribed him to go to therapy, and he'd agree, but then not go. Or he'd yell and hit things (not me... yet). I was walking on eggshells, because I never knew what would set him off, or what his mood would be like when I got home. It took me three years to realize how fucked up my life had become - it had gotten worse so slowly I hadn't noticed. I had stopped seeing friends, he controlled where I went and for how long, and my life was built around keeping him calm. Divorce was the best thing I've ever done for myself.
Please please please, do not marry this man unless this problem is _fixed_. Not in progress, but handled. Thank god we didn't have kids. You'll save yourself so much grief if you handle this now, or DTMF now, before you need to get a lawyer to do so.
@Fiance - I married a guy who suddenly started acting like yours. I begged/asked/pleaded/threatened/bribed him to go to therapy, and he'd agree, but then not go. Or he'd yell and hit things (not me... yet). I was walking on eggshells, because I never knew what would set him off, or what his mood would be like when I got home. It took me three years to realize how fucked up my life had become - it had gotten worse so slowly I hadn't noticed. I had stopped seeing friends, he controlled where I went and for how long, and my life was built around keeping him calm. Divorce was the best thing I've ever done for myself.
Please please please, do not marry this man unless this problem is _fixed_. Not in progress, but handled. Thank god we didn't have kids. You'll save yourself so much grief if you handle this now, or DTMF now, before you need to get a lawyer to do so.
70
I can't tell you how many friends (almost all female) have told me
"Sure, he has temper tantrums but he never hits me"
then
"sure, he hit me but he was really sorry and said he never would again"
then
"yes he hits me but never breaks anything"
then
"yes he broke (insert assorted body parts here) but he didn't mean to"
This is a very standard progression that I've seen far more times than I would like to believe. You have to insist on therapy. He needs to complete the full course of therapy. You then need to wait at least a year or two after the therapy to see if it's still a problem. Then and only then should you consider marrying this guy.
If he doesn't go to therapy (and he needs to talk about his anger management and his drug use) or if he doesn't take it seriously or if it doesn't take you need to be prepared to DTMFA. Do not pass go do not collect $200. Get the fuck out if you care at all about not just your own physical and mental health but also that of any children you hope to (or might accidentally) have with this man. And, for that matter, any grand kids you might end up with since a tendency to enter into abusive relationships (or to be abusive in relationships) is often passed down to children.
To all of the commenters here...Who wants to start a poll on whether she's going to get married to this guy even though he won't go to therapy.
I give her an 80% chance of marrying this guy as is.
If she marries him I give her an 85% chance of being hospitalized within 5 years of the wedding.
"Sure, he has temper tantrums but he never hits me"
then
"sure, he hit me but he was really sorry and said he never would again"
then
"yes he hits me but never breaks anything"
then
"yes he broke (insert assorted body parts here) but he didn't mean to"
This is a very standard progression that I've seen far more times than I would like to believe. You have to insist on therapy. He needs to complete the full course of therapy. You then need to wait at least a year or two after the therapy to see if it's still a problem. Then and only then should you consider marrying this guy.
If he doesn't go to therapy (and he needs to talk about his anger management and his drug use) or if he doesn't take it seriously or if it doesn't take you need to be prepared to DTMFA. Do not pass go do not collect $200. Get the fuck out if you care at all about not just your own physical and mental health but also that of any children you hope to (or might accidentally) have with this man. And, for that matter, any grand kids you might end up with since a tendency to enter into abusive relationships (or to be abusive in relationships) is often passed down to children.
To all of the commenters here...Who wants to start a poll on whether she's going to get married to this guy even though he won't go to therapy.
I give her an 80% chance of marrying this guy as is.
If she marries him I give her an 85% chance of being hospitalized within 5 years of the wedding.
71
Even if the situation never escalates beyond where it is right now (and who's to say whether it will or won't), "verbally abusive" is still "abusive." And nobody needs that in their life. Especially, as has been pointed out by others, your kids.
72
Hey Frustrated Fianceé: This is looonnng, longer than Dan's response, but, there are so many parallels...
Ex #1: I was in a similar position to you about a decade ago. My honey was the best lover I'd ever had; he was thoughtful, passionate, wildly in love with me & honest. But he was filled with anger & rage. It would also be set off by seemingly no big deal type things, exactly like you mention, above. He didn't smoke pot, but he drank. & like you, I believed he would never, ever hit me. I was sure of that in my soul. He loved me far too much for that, even if I'd seen him punch a wall, even if he regularly raged out at the top of his lungs. I moved in with him, after dragging my feet about that for a couple of years. We were kinda engaged (he got me a ring, I wore it, but I only said 'maybe'. Some part of me knew even then that the anger was scary).
About a year after I moved in w/ him, we'd been together five years. Half a decade. We started having screaming matches, despite my hating yelling, as he drove me to it, & I told him I thought he had problems & needed therapy. He said no.
One night, he got super drunk, was angry about some work-related thing, & we fought. He didn't hit me. But he pushed me onto our couch. Then when I tried to leave our apartment, he sat in front of the door & wouldn't let me leave. I was freaked out & scared. I managed to talk him down, & get him tucked into bed, but I slept on the sofa. I knew, I could feel, that he'd been about a millimeter away from lifting his hand to me. & I cried & cried, weirdly, felt so ashamed; it just didn't jive with everything else about him, how could those things be in the same person? But I knew what I felt, even if I couldn't bring myself to say it aloud or tell anybody yet.
The next morning, the attraction to him was dead. It took me a couple of weeks to be able to figure out where to go and what to do, but we broke up & I moved out.
Ex #2: It took another punishing, long, relationship, this time with a depressive who abused me emotionally, for me to realize *I* had been part of the problem: why was I putting up with that? I finally saw a cognitive behavioral therapist. (ex #2 has also denied his depression or need for help, BTW).
My mother, like your father, was physically abusive. Badly so. Before I caught it as a pattern, I was trying, in my relationship choices, to create that which felt familiar: feelings of intense love & care, alternating with feelings of fear & uncertainty. That kept things exciting for me, as well as weirdly comforting, as that must have been what I deserved, right? That's all I had known.
There's still a lot of fallout from my childhood, & from my meta ex #1. I had to spend some time on my own before getting involved with anyone again. I have weight issues, both due to a metabolic disorder (a real one, not a Krispy Kreme one) & eating to hide/comfort myself (common in abuse survivors, may have been a Krispy Kreme or 7 involved there). But I'm dealing with my shit, exercising, learning to live in the moment more & have stopped feeling like what I knew, is what I deserve. I still have a long way to go.
Not that I feel a Hollywood ending is necessary, here, but I'm also in the healthiest relationship I've ever been in. When he gets mad or frustrated, we talk. I know what is, and is NOT, my fault. I have a true partner.
But I know I'd be okay if I wound up alone, too, & that was a huge part of getting control back over my life.
BTW, Ex #1 got engaged again. They had at least one ugly altercation that I know of, where she was covered in bruises. She stayed. He was drunk when they broke up, & he'd pushed her down the stairs, in front of her child. She could have died. Thankfully she left. & he's with someone else, who he had taken up with before even breaking it off w/ his fianceé. Still raging, still denying he's the one with the problem.
Don't be me. I'm 40 now, it took me since 25 to get here. Don't let it take you a decade to come to some peace. Understand that your childhood is a huge part of what makes you think that this is okay, that maybe it will change, or that you can change it. You can't. Only he can. Maybe he'll do it if you look like you're actually leaving, but maybe he'll just do it long enough for the wedding. Guys like that tend to feel like once they "have" you, you are stuck.
Please at least, if you are NOT gonna woman up & demand anger management therapy as a condition of the wedding, or if you can't leave, put the wedding off. Get some help yourself. Make sure you have a backup plan for yourself if you live with him. Please. Because see that line about my ex's second fianceé could have DIED.
I'm not saying he doesn't love you, or you don't love him. But you have to love *you* more. OK? This life is all we get & your first responsibility is to love & care for yourself. You deserve it. You deserve better.
& yes, as the child of an abusive woman, let me add that I'd feel the exact same way if the gender roles in this story were reversed.
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Ex #1: I was in a similar position to you about a decade ago. My honey was the best lover I'd ever had; he was thoughtful, passionate, wildly in love with me & honest. But he was filled with anger & rage. It would also be set off by seemingly no big deal type things, exactly like you mention, above. He didn't smoke pot, but he drank. & like you, I believed he would never, ever hit me. I was sure of that in my soul. He loved me far too much for that, even if I'd seen him punch a wall, even if he regularly raged out at the top of his lungs. I moved in with him, after dragging my feet about that for a couple of years. We were kinda engaged (he got me a ring, I wore it, but I only said 'maybe'. Some part of me knew even then that the anger was scary).
About a year after I moved in w/ him, we'd been together five years. Half a decade. We started having screaming matches, despite my hating yelling, as he drove me to it, & I told him I thought he had problems & needed therapy. He said no.
One night, he got super drunk, was angry about some work-related thing, & we fought. He didn't hit me. But he pushed me onto our couch. Then when I tried to leave our apartment, he sat in front of the door & wouldn't let me leave. I was freaked out & scared. I managed to talk him down, & get him tucked into bed, but I slept on the sofa. I knew, I could feel, that he'd been about a millimeter away from lifting his hand to me. & I cried & cried, weirdly, felt so ashamed; it just didn't jive with everything else about him, how could those things be in the same person? But I knew what I felt, even if I couldn't bring myself to say it aloud or tell anybody yet.
The next morning, the attraction to him was dead. It took me a couple of weeks to be able to figure out where to go and what to do, but we broke up & I moved out.
Ex #2: It took another punishing, long, relationship, this time with a depressive who abused me emotionally, for me to realize *I* had been part of the problem: why was I putting up with that? I finally saw a cognitive behavioral therapist. (ex #2 has also denied his depression or need for help, BTW).
My mother, like your father, was physically abusive. Badly so. Before I caught it as a pattern, I was trying, in my relationship choices, to create that which felt familiar: feelings of intense love & care, alternating with feelings of fear & uncertainty. That kept things exciting for me, as well as weirdly comforting, as that must have been what I deserved, right? That's all I had known.
There's still a lot of fallout from my childhood, & from my meta ex #1. I had to spend some time on my own before getting involved with anyone again. I have weight issues, both due to a metabolic disorder (a real one, not a Krispy Kreme one) & eating to hide/comfort myself (common in abuse survivors, may have been a Krispy Kreme or 7 involved there). But I'm dealing with my shit, exercising, learning to live in the moment more & have stopped feeling like what I knew, is what I deserve. I still have a long way to go.
Not that I feel a Hollywood ending is necessary, here, but I'm also in the healthiest relationship I've ever been in. When he gets mad or frustrated, we talk. I know what is, and is NOT, my fault. I have a true partner.
But I know I'd be okay if I wound up alone, too, & that was a huge part of getting control back over my life.
BTW, Ex #1 got engaged again. They had at least one ugly altercation that I know of, where she was covered in bruises. She stayed. He was drunk when they broke up, & he'd pushed her down the stairs, in front of her child. She could have died. Thankfully she left. & he's with someone else, who he had taken up with before even breaking it off w/ his fianceé. Still raging, still denying he's the one with the problem.
Don't be me. I'm 40 now, it took me since 25 to get here. Don't let it take you a decade to come to some peace. Understand that your childhood is a huge part of what makes you think that this is okay, that maybe it will change, or that you can change it. You can't. Only he can. Maybe he'll do it if you look like you're actually leaving, but maybe he'll just do it long enough for the wedding. Guys like that tend to feel like once they "have" you, you are stuck.
Please at least, if you are NOT gonna woman up & demand anger management therapy as a condition of the wedding, or if you can't leave, put the wedding off. Get some help yourself. Make sure you have a backup plan for yourself if you live with him. Please. Because see that line about my ex's second fianceé could have DIED.
I'm not saying he doesn't love you, or you don't love him. But you have to love *you* more. OK? This life is all we get & your first responsibility is to love & care for yourself. You deserve it. You deserve better.
& yes, as the child of an abusive woman, let me add that I'd feel the exact same way if the gender roles in this story were reversed.
73
Yet another commenter from the verbally-violent father contingent; he didn't hit me (at least I don't think he ever did), but he certainly threatened to, amidst other threats and insults. It wasn't OK. I hate to throw around the word "abuse," but then I don't know - if that's not (verbal) abuse, what is?
Also, I'm thinking about an ex with a bad temper - one time she tried to justify it with something like "...when I lash out at you like that, it's just because something happened at work that bothered me, or something someone said to me, or something I overheard, or something I saw on TV, or something I read about, or something I was thinking about, or..." The tantrum-throwers out there need to realize that the problem lies in them, not in the whole rest of the world. Also, it took me a long time to realize that if you love someone, then you should treat them with care and respect, and not use them as a tantrum-launching catalyst-machine.
@Donna - Do you really think that yelling at and insulting your family (making "snarky comments") isn't doing them harm? Seriously - don't take your family's love for granted.
Also, I'm thinking about an ex with a bad temper - one time she tried to justify it with something like "...when I lash out at you like that, it's just because something happened at work that bothered me, or something someone said to me, or something I overheard, or something I saw on TV, or something I read about, or something I was thinking about, or..." The tantrum-throwers out there need to realize that the problem lies in them, not in the whole rest of the world. Also, it took me a long time to realize that if you love someone, then you should treat them with care and respect, and not use them as a tantrum-launching catalyst-machine.
@Donna - Do you really think that yelling at and insulting your family (making "snarky comments") isn't doing them harm? Seriously - don't take your family's love for granted.
74
To FF: I'm one of the unregistered comments, above, as well. Please listen to what veryone's saying here, & get some help. Also, HAVE A BACKUP PLAN. Fine, he'd never ever hit you. But - do you have somewhere to go if you don't feel safe some night? Do your friends/family know that he has these huge anger issues? Make sure you aren't isolated by your lover. That is a common pattern of an abuser.
Hey Dan, you've really been on a good roll lately, BTW. Don't listen to anyone who says you haven't been mean enough. The delicate Dan advice sprinkled with snark that I fell for back in the 90's has been the tone for the past coupla weeks, & it feels good.
Thanks, too, for your recent attention to women's issues/problems, especially Planned Parenthood. I admit that I am one of the first to hop up & down if it reads to me like yer being biphobic or fatphobic or have canned ham issues, etc. But the past few weeks have reminded me that your salty side is balanced by sweet..much like, ironically, a good piece of ham. ;) You may be a bitchy ally, but what is sweet without salty?
FF, good luck, and PLEASE READ ALL OF THE ABOVE THOROUGHLY. This is your life.
Hey Dan, you've really been on a good roll lately, BTW. Don't listen to anyone who says you haven't been mean enough. The delicate Dan advice sprinkled with snark that I fell for back in the 90's has been the tone for the past coupla weeks, & it feels good.
Thanks, too, for your recent attention to women's issues/problems, especially Planned Parenthood. I admit that I am one of the first to hop up & down if it reads to me like yer being biphobic or fatphobic or have canned ham issues, etc. But the past few weeks have reminded me that your salty side is balanced by sweet..much like, ironically, a good piece of ham. ;) You may be a bitchy ally, but what is sweet without salty?
FF, good luck, and PLEASE READ ALL OF THE ABOVE THOROUGHLY. This is your life.
75
I'm reminded of a passage from Lois McMaster Bujold's novel "Komarr":
"When I go down into the ground at last, as God is my judge, I pray my best-beloved may have better to say of me than, 'He didn't hit me.'"
"When I go down into the ground at last, as God is my judge, I pray my best-beloved may have better to say of me than, 'He didn't hit me.'"
76
Letter writer: Hi, my borfriend gets very uspet over little shit all the time. It stresses me out, because my dad was a basket case, and it reminds me of him.
Slog Mob Response: HE IS GOING TO BEAT YOU! Run, Forrest, run!
Imaginary letter: Hi, my girlfriend gets very uspet and emotional over little shit all the time. It stresses me out, because my mom was a basket case, and it reminds me of her.
Slog Mob Response: You need to be more understanding. She probably is having a tough time at work, or you are not giving her the validation she needs. And quit brining your mommy issues into your relationship.
Slog Mob Response: HE IS GOING TO BEAT YOU! Run, Forrest, run!
Imaginary letter: Hi, my girlfriend gets very uspet and emotional over little shit all the time. It stresses me out, because my mom was a basket case, and it reminds me of her.
Slog Mob Response: You need to be more understanding. She probably is having a tough time at work, or you are not giving her the validation she needs. And quit brining your mommy issues into your relationship.
77
Don't walk, RUN.
It doesn't matter how sweet he seems now, there are bright red flags waving left & right. Please, please, please don't marry this guy! See it as a gift that you have seen the warning signs.
All abusers start out treating their partners well - if they didn't then they'd never make it past the first few weeks. Even he has never been directly violent towards you, violent behavior towards objects is a form of intimidation in itself. The message is: "Careful, you could be next".
Try googling "abuse warning signs", "cycle of abuse" and "ambient abuse".
It doesn't matter how sweet he seems now, there are bright red flags waving left & right. Please, please, please don't marry this guy! See it as a gift that you have seen the warning signs.
All abusers start out treating their partners well - if they didn't then they'd never make it past the first few weeks. Even he has never been directly violent towards you, violent behavior towards objects is a form of intimidation in itself. The message is: "Careful, you could be next".
Try googling "abuse warning signs", "cycle of abuse" and "ambient abuse".
78
Chiming in too. My STBX husband is emotionally and verbally abusive, definitely alcoholic, and the effect it had on me was to become his Renfield. I would either scurry around trying to find his keys for him, or, if it got really bad, take on his anger, take on his battles, and became the angriest rage monster She Hulk ever, almost as if to pre-emptively prevent HIS rages. He has not ever hit me, yet, but he has driven crazy while drunk with me in the front seat as if he wanted to kill us both, punched many holes in our walls, driven the car through the garage door, and swung a hammer at my head. My dad is a rager too, and he viciously spanked us kids, usually with a hairbrush, several times a week, for infractions I now see as minor (not going to sleep right away when told, etc.) He also slapped me across the face when I was 17. I was stunned, but then I slapped that jerk right back, as hard as I could. He then threatened to kick me out of the house. I stood up to him, and I stood up to my husband, but it takes its toll nonetheless. I became a rage monster to "out-rage" my father and my husband, because sometimes, if you got just that much madder they they got, they'd calm down faster. It's a sick cycle and I realize now that my husband is gone, I am almost never the least bit upset. I am patient, kind, and calm, and much more loving and generous with our children. My husband "medicated" himself with constant drinking, and I think my dad had a drinking problem too. Since my husband left, I am also having very few physical symptoms, when I had tons of them before. I believe both of them had genuine anger issues, but on some level, I believe they both wanted to control others with their anger, and I picked up on that and attempted to control their anger with mine. DTMFA, for your own sake. It's not worth it.
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79
@76 FAIL. People have that tone because this IS how abuse starts. & it was already asked what people's response would be if the gender of the LW's situation were reversed.
Domestic abuse happens both ways. But, men are usually physically larger than women, & historically, there are more male perpetrators of violence at home than women. If that means that the tone above is consistent, that's because that's how that dynamic usually plays out. I know, 'cause I've been there.
Everyone brings their parent issues into their relationships, for good or ill.
I remember clearly the first time I met Guy X, who had a big shiny black eye from the woman he was living with. He moved out. My community of pals was just as supportive as they would have been of a woman in the same position.
Domestic abuse happens both ways. But, men are usually physically larger than women, & historically, there are more male perpetrators of violence at home than women. If that means that the tone above is consistent, that's because that's how that dynamic usually plays out. I know, 'cause I've been there.
Everyone brings their parent issues into their relationships, for good or ill.
I remember clearly the first time I met Guy X, who had a big shiny black eye from the woman he was living with. He moved out. My community of pals was just as supportive as they would have been of a woman in the same position.
80
@15 - Donna, if you're still reading, and if you're not happy with your anger, I recommend an anger journal. Right after the flash of anger passes, you write down the day, the time, the triggering event, the context (you were hungry; late; whatever comes to mind). It will let you see how often this happens, and what the patterns are, so you can start trying to watch your mood change before it escalates into anger. It was very effective for me.
@49 - why do you think the moderator would have a problem with @36?
@76 - did you skip all the letters aimed at Donna (@15)?
@49 - why do you think the moderator would have a problem with @36?
@76 - did you skip all the letters aimed at Donna (@15)?
81
@26- "Fwapping" is the sound a red flag makes in a strong (raging, tantrum-throwing) wind. Onomatopoeia at its finest.
82
@76, ditto 79.
I am female, and I keep a tight rein on my temper because yelling at someone is abusive. No one deserves to be intimidated, degraded, mocked or to be my verbal punching bag. I never ever raise my voice and I keep all those "snarky" comments in my head - no name-calling, no threatening, nothing of the kind. Just because my mate is bigger, stronger and male doesn't mean I get to abuse him. If you can't control yourself, you don't deserve a partner.
If a 5 year old came swinging at you, would you say you were being abused? No? That's how women have historically been seen - infantilized, weak, ineffectual.
That "men aren't victims" thing isn't new. It's a product of the male-centered show our society has been for the last millenia.
I am female, and I keep a tight rein on my temper because yelling at someone is abusive. No one deserves to be intimidated, degraded, mocked or to be my verbal punching bag. I never ever raise my voice and I keep all those "snarky" comments in my head - no name-calling, no threatening, nothing of the kind. Just because my mate is bigger, stronger and male doesn't mean I get to abuse him. If you can't control yourself, you don't deserve a partner.
If a 5 year old came swinging at you, would you say you were being abused? No? That's how women have historically been seen - infantilized, weak, ineffectual.
That "men aren't victims" thing isn't new. It's a product of the male-centered show our society has been for the last millenia.
83
Totally agree with the advice. The only thing I have to add is in response to a comment or two regarding how a weed-smoker could lose his temper so badly. Weed is only a mellow drug if you expect it to be. I have been around plenty of violent rednecks who smoked weed every day and it did not decrease their temper or their tendency to violent behavior one little bit. Some people think of weed as harmless, and it is--but only when used in relative moderation by a person who isn't already a fucked up asshole. Assholes who smoke weed become bigger assholes.
84
@ Donna, #15,
I think what you do is childish, which you admit to, and you might want to work on it just on that count, but so long as your frequent anger isn't directed at your children or husband, what's the big deal? Look, my mother was verbally abusive to me and my sisters (and it took me LONG after she admitted to it to admit to myself that I had "been abused"; and trust me, what I'm referring to is not just a bit of yelling and snarkiness when we were fighting, like you refer to). Everyone yells a bit and is snarky when some kind of fight is going on; afterwards, you apologize and they apologize and you hug; this in and of itself doesn't constitute verbal abuse. Meanwhile, my dad & my sister get spontaneously angry at items, like you describe.
I just think my dad & my sister are funny, and we laugh about it afterward, while my mom scared me as a child. But funnily enough I'm just fine as an adult and I love her without resentment and just roll my eyes at her when she gets mean now, which doesn't seem scary at all now that I'm the same size as her (and she's worked on it some since admitting to being verbally abusive). Children are quite resilient, I think. Some of them aren't; you have people talking about how you remind them of THEIR mother or father, who messed them up pretty bad. This is influencing their advice but of course my own rather chill experience with verbal abuse and its benign cousin, temper tantrums, is influencing my own advice. So you don't want to fuck up your kids, obviously.
I think what you need to do is have an honest, very calm conversation with your husband and your kids and make sure they don't feel like you're traumatizing them. Because they're the only ones who can say that definitively. Tell them if they want you to stop, you will go get some counseling. Heck, you might want to just to help yourself stop for the "childish" reason discussed above. But for Christ's sake, don't get medicated to fix this.
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I think what you do is childish, which you admit to, and you might want to work on it just on that count, but so long as your frequent anger isn't directed at your children or husband, what's the big deal? Look, my mother was verbally abusive to me and my sisters (and it took me LONG after she admitted to it to admit to myself that I had "been abused"; and trust me, what I'm referring to is not just a bit of yelling and snarkiness when we were fighting, like you refer to). Everyone yells a bit and is snarky when some kind of fight is going on; afterwards, you apologize and they apologize and you hug; this in and of itself doesn't constitute verbal abuse. Meanwhile, my dad & my sister get spontaneously angry at items, like you describe.
I just think my dad & my sister are funny, and we laugh about it afterward, while my mom scared me as a child. But funnily enough I'm just fine as an adult and I love her without resentment and just roll my eyes at her when she gets mean now, which doesn't seem scary at all now that I'm the same size as her (and she's worked on it some since admitting to being verbally abusive). Children are quite resilient, I think. Some of them aren't; you have people talking about how you remind them of THEIR mother or father, who messed them up pretty bad. This is influencing their advice but of course my own rather chill experience with verbal abuse and its benign cousin, temper tantrums, is influencing my own advice. So you don't want to fuck up your kids, obviously.
I think what you need to do is have an honest, very calm conversation with your husband and your kids and make sure they don't feel like you're traumatizing them. Because they're the only ones who can say that definitively. Tell them if they want you to stop, you will go get some counseling. Heck, you might want to just to help yourself stop for the "childish" reason discussed above. But for Christ's sake, don't get medicated to fix this.
85
"Insist he get therapy" is terrible advice. The odds if it working are very low (especially if he's being ultimatum-ed into it), and meanwhile, this is her life that she's wasting. As several people have pointed out, you don't just get him into therapy, you wait for the problem to actually get fixed. And then you wait some more, to make sure it stays fixed. That's a lot of years to waste on such a long shot.
Just get out.
Just get out.
87
Well, maybe you just need to get a thing or two through that thick fucking skull of yours. Hmm, maybe the axe will help.
88
I could have written this letter 10 years ago. Fiance with anger management problems, yelling at and around me, losing it over nothing, frequent public humiliation, refusal to go to therapy. It's emotional, verbal and psychological abuse, pure and simple, and you're not seeing it because you're too involved. Thankfully, I came to my senses before I married the dude. It sucked, it was the hardest thing I've ever done, but it was also the best thing I've ever done. Get out. Now.
90
Totally emotional abuse. I was with a guy for 4 years that was like this. He once tore a cabinet door off because the knife he was using to cut food wasn't sharp enough (this is just one example of hundreds). He also never hit me either nor did I ever feel like he would. His freak outs didn't always bother me at first because they weren't directed at me, but after that many years I felt like I was constantly catering to his insane emotions and I would walk on eggshells non stop. It got the point where I felt like I slowly lost my own opinions on things and slowly lost my own personality. You may not realize it now, but the emotional abuse can creep up on you.
91
I don't know what else to add here, except my own story. It's not quite as extreme as some of the others that have already been told, but even now, seven years later, it still comes back to bite me in the butt. Unlike most of the stories told here, my father was not abusive. He was absent. I didn't have a male role model in my life. So when this guy came around and showed interest in me, well...
He moved into my tiny studio apartment after we had been dating about 8 months, and quickly lost his job. I'm sure that was a factor in his nastiness, but it wasn't the cause. He never once laid a finger on me in anger. I still tell myself that if he had, he would have been out on his ass in a millisecond, but I'm not so sure about that. It was all mental and verbal abuse. He'd call me stupid or somesuch, and I'd tell myself that I knew better, but after years of being told something, there's a part of you that believes it. There was the same pattern of little mishaps causing huge blowouts, and me trying to tippy-toe around in order to avoid his anger.
It took him leaving me out in the snow one January morning, with no transportation, for me to realize just how bad it had gotten. He didn't come back for me, and I had to call my mother to come get me. As soon as I got to her house, I called the apartment and told him it was over. Before I could lose my nerve. It then took him three months to actually get out. But once he did, I felt so much lighter.
@FF, I'm simply going to echo what has already been said here. Would you be better off with, or without him? Then take the first step to get out. I'm really hoping that you're checking in here, and I'd really like to know that you're okay. Count on your friends and family to get you through this. Read through the accounts being shared here and realize that we, complete and utter strangers, are concerned for you.
It took me years to realize that I was an abused woman. Please, please open your eyes.
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He moved into my tiny studio apartment after we had been dating about 8 months, and quickly lost his job. I'm sure that was a factor in his nastiness, but it wasn't the cause. He never once laid a finger on me in anger. I still tell myself that if he had, he would have been out on his ass in a millisecond, but I'm not so sure about that. It was all mental and verbal abuse. He'd call me stupid or somesuch, and I'd tell myself that I knew better, but after years of being told something, there's a part of you that believes it. There was the same pattern of little mishaps causing huge blowouts, and me trying to tippy-toe around in order to avoid his anger.
It took him leaving me out in the snow one January morning, with no transportation, for me to realize just how bad it had gotten. He didn't come back for me, and I had to call my mother to come get me. As soon as I got to her house, I called the apartment and told him it was over. Before I could lose my nerve. It then took him three months to actually get out. But once he did, I felt so much lighter.
@FF, I'm simply going to echo what has already been said here. Would you be better off with, or without him? Then take the first step to get out. I'm really hoping that you're checking in here, and I'd really like to know that you're okay. Count on your friends and family to get you through this. Read through the accounts being shared here and realize that we, complete and utter strangers, are concerned for you.
It took me years to realize that I was an abused woman. Please, please open your eyes.
92
@85 - Agreed. In many (most?) cases, counseling just teaches an abuser enough therapy-speak for them to turn it around and use it against their partner. :(
93
@20.....bless you for your comments. I just recently laid down an ultimatum to a dearly loved BF that therapy was needed if we were to have a future as a couple. Hardest thing I ever did and what I got in return was a huge mind-fuck that the problem really was all mine, I was demonstrating conditional love, etc., etc. It's been 2 months since I broke off the relationship, and with the help of some very good friends I am slowly seeing that what I did was the right thing and that I'm not the person with the problem. But the letter-writer definitely needs to be prepared to 1) follow-through on the ultimatum and 2) be prepared to be verbally/emotionally manipulated. But, thank you, for this LOTD....everyone's responses have helped me see that I took the right action.
94
@84, you cannot just have a conversation with your potentially traumatized kids to ask if they want you to stop. If there's abuse going on, she's not going to get honest answers. If my mom had asked, I never in a million years would have admitted how scared I was, because then she might yell at me more, make snarky comments about my inability to handle a little snark, etc.
95
My partner is bipolar and has the occasional tantrum when he's feeling bad and enough frustrations pile up. He's seen docs/therapists and tried medication, but none of it so far has been noticeably effective. Incidents have fortunately gotten less frequent/severe over time due to age or better management of stress. I deal with it and try to take care of him in his case because it's rare, he acknowledges that his emotions go out of control sometimes and it's not anyone's fault, he normally is functional, he doesn't expect the universe to revolve around him, I have known him for a long time and he has never been a danger to others even if directly pissed off by them, the tantrums have never been directed at people, he takes full responsibility for anything he damages, he is respectful of my property and only throws his own stuff, we don't get in fights with each other and he has not had tantrums about me, I'm not scared or feeling like walking on eggshells, we can crack jokes or talk about the catalyst problem to help him cool down, I have the patience, and he's otherwise awesome. If I get sick or have an episode of depression, he returns the favor and takes care of me. We don't want kids, so scarring any with occasionally disturbing behavior is not a concern.
Should "Frustrated Fiancee" DTMFA? I'm thinking YES. If this guy is blaming other people for his out-of-control emotions, be it you or a stranger like the supermarket cashier, that is an abuser red flag. Is he selfish, does he seem to think the world should revolve around him? If his tantrums are driving you nuts or ruining your life and he isn't concerned enough about you to try therapy, that's another flag. If he does agree to therapy, don't go through with the wedding yet. Even if you are completely safe from physical harm, it sounds like you couldn't live with him as he currently is without sacrificing your own sanity. You'll eventually resent him if you don't already, and want out. It just isn't going to work in the long term.
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Should "Frustrated Fiancee" DTMFA? I'm thinking YES. If this guy is blaming other people for his out-of-control emotions, be it you or a stranger like the supermarket cashier, that is an abuser red flag. Is he selfish, does he seem to think the world should revolve around him? If his tantrums are driving you nuts or ruining your life and he isn't concerned enough about you to try therapy, that's another flag. If he does agree to therapy, don't go through with the wedding yet. Even if you are completely safe from physical harm, it sounds like you couldn't live with him as he currently is without sacrificing your own sanity. You'll eventually resent him if you don't already, and want out. It just isn't going to work in the long term.
96
This couple sounds a lot like my parents, who have been together 40+ years. Dad is often very screamy and unpleasant, but has never crossed the line to physical abuse. He can also be a loud, convivial kind of guy. Just basically has no emotional filters: whatever Dad feels, it's his prerogative to let everybody else know right away. I can't say Mom has been 100% happy in the marriage, far from it, but in some sense he has held up his part of the deal by supporting her in the style to which she is accustomed and never requiring her to work outside the home. Now that they're both retired she spends a lot of time outside the house, traveling with her friends and volunteering. I'd say she's pretty happy with how things worked out, but it's not how I'd want to live.
I dunno, FF. This is probably a best-case scenario. Does this sound like a life you would like?
I dunno, FF. This is probably a best-case scenario. Does this sound like a life you would like?
97
She knows what this is about and where it is going. She was looking to Dan for permission to stay. I hope she doesn't, but this doesn't sound like it will end well.
98
Personally, I consider it a Giant Warning Sign for someone to know that violence, yelling, tantrums, etc., are triggers for you due to past abuse, and to continue the behavior anyway. What that tells me is that he does not give a shit how badly his tantrums traumatize her or if they trigger PTSD symptoms. This is not someone who loves you.
In my case, it was my mother who was violently abusive. Usually to objects - she tended to throw whatever was in her hand (the sound of breaking glass is still a huge panic trigger for me, because she liked to throw her drinks at me). Sometimes to us. She put a hot iron on my sister's arm. She broke the same sister's arm. She burned me with lit cigarettes. She used a belt or a hairbrush and did not seem able to stop. She had a vicious backhand and the bitch wore rings.
So how would I feel if the genders were reversed? Nostalgic. Not in a good way.
In my case, it was my mother who was violently abusive. Usually to objects - she tended to throw whatever was in her hand (the sound of breaking glass is still a huge panic trigger for me, because she liked to throw her drinks at me). Sometimes to us. She put a hot iron on my sister's arm. She broke the same sister's arm. She burned me with lit cigarettes. She used a belt or a hairbrush and did not seem able to stop. She had a vicious backhand and the bitch wore rings.
So how would I feel if the genders were reversed? Nostalgic. Not in a good way.
99
85 and 92 are correct. "Insist on therapy" is bad advice: the LW either won't insist (too timid), or her boyfriend won't go (too much of a controlling asshole), or if he goes he'll just learn manipulative therapy-speak to further rationalize his assholery and will remain a ticking time bomb.
The LW's boyfriend is not 'in good working order' (as Dan has said of others).
DTMFA.
The LW's boyfriend is not 'in good working order' (as Dan has said of others).
DTMFA.
100
Donna @ 15's post really bugs me, because I've been in that relationship from the other side. The extreme outburst, the cursing, the sarcasm, the name-calling, the threats, the ultimatums, the screaming, the insults. They are not harmless just because the woman is hurling them at the man. Our society expects a high level stoicism from the man in that situation, and it isn't healthy. Living in constant anxiety that "mom's gonna be mom" (a description dripping with denial and self-delusion) sucks gigantic shit logs. It seriously fucked me up.
Donna, if you do not treat your anger like a serious as a heart attack problem, you will destroy your family. In time, your husband will avoid you emotionally and sexually, because emotional and sexual intimacy require trust and chronic, abusive anger kills trust. Your kids will either: (1) rebel, act out in school, and daydream about getting away, (2) sublimate the abuse, get depressed, lose interest in school, or (3) internalize what you model and use anger to deal with the world.
And LW, don't bother trying to get him into therapy. It can help, but it is exhausting and has a huge fail and relapse rate. You don't have kids together, and it doesn't sound like you need to stay with him to remain in the country, or depend on him financially. Therapy is what you do if leaving is problematic (especially if you have kids, because they will likely be exposed to the anger junkie without the other grown up as a buffer). Leaving is what you do in every other situation. So just leave.
Donna, if you do not treat your anger like a serious as a heart attack problem, you will destroy your family. In time, your husband will avoid you emotionally and sexually, because emotional and sexual intimacy require trust and chronic, abusive anger kills trust. Your kids will either: (1) rebel, act out in school, and daydream about getting away, (2) sublimate the abuse, get depressed, lose interest in school, or (3) internalize what you model and use anger to deal with the world.
And LW, don't bother trying to get him into therapy. It can help, but it is exhausting and has a huge fail and relapse rate. You don't have kids together, and it doesn't sound like you need to stay with him to remain in the country, or depend on him financially. Therapy is what you do if leaving is problematic (especially if you have kids, because they will likely be exposed to the anger junkie without the other grown up as a buffer). Leaving is what you do in every other situation. So just leave.
101
It has been 7 months since I broke up with my version of this guy, and I am not going to lie- there were some DARK times in there, but you know what? Tonight I made out with a new man (after the requisite rebounder) and it was great. It was fun, and I had a blast.
Breaking up with my ex was the hardest thing I have ever done, but now that I am on the other side I thank myself daily for kicking him out of my life. Just think, somewhere out there is a guy/girl who will do all those wonderful things that your abuser is doing AND he'll do it without having to abuse you. It is insane to say, but I am so grateful for the lessons that my ex taught me, not the least of which is that I am strong enough to face leaving if I am not being treated right. I also know that if new guy starts any nonsense I'll have the wits to make the cut waaaaay sooner.
I was constantly asking myself, is this abuse? How about that- is THAT abuse? I found myself in a grey area that was a mile wide, but kept edging ever closer to The Line. If you are asking yourself if it is abuse then you already know the answer to the question. And you already know what you should do.
I knew my last relationship was done for when I was watching Supernanny and thought to myself, "hey, I wonder if that technique would work on him."
Breaking up with my ex was the hardest thing I have ever done, but now that I am on the other side I thank myself daily for kicking him out of my life. Just think, somewhere out there is a guy/girl who will do all those wonderful things that your abuser is doing AND he'll do it without having to abuse you. It is insane to say, but I am so grateful for the lessons that my ex taught me, not the least of which is that I am strong enough to face leaving if I am not being treated right. I also know that if new guy starts any nonsense I'll have the wits to make the cut waaaaay sooner.
I was constantly asking myself, is this abuse? How about that- is THAT abuse? I found myself in a grey area that was a mile wide, but kept edging ever closer to The Line. If you are asking yourself if it is abuse then you already know the answer to the question. And you already know what you should do.
I knew my last relationship was done for when I was watching Supernanny and thought to myself, "hey, I wonder if that technique would work on him."
102
@94 - And I think Donna can. In the midst of my mother's verbally abusive behavior, we would sit down and have family "meetings" where my sisters and I would raise the issue; my mother just never listened and took these meetings more as an opportunity to criticize us than to listen to our own criticism. But being treated badly doesn't mean you cease to have opinions or can no longer express them. My family didn't view it as "verbal abuse" because I don't think any of us conceptualized abuse as anything other than the version where kids got hit, but we knew it didn't make us happy, and my mother would admit sometimes to being "mean". But if my mother had been willing to listen to us - as Donna might be, if she's asking for advice on this - it would have made a difference. Again, if Donna is being "abusive" and her kids view it as such. Like I said, I don't and I think most people don't view a little yelling or snarky quarreling as abuse. Childish, sure, and an undesirable social interaction, but usually the yelling & the snark runs both ways, ends with a mutual apology, and no one is hurt for more than the moment.
103
Speaking as a person who has had a more volatile temper than the average person, and who, as an adult, has made some progress with regards to anger management, I just want to say, that It disturbs me to see people with anger problems be condemned so quickly.
Maybe this guy is a future abuser. I'm not saying she should stay with him. But I am saying, that I think that the world would be a much better place if anger was something which was treated as a kind of energy that some of us have in larger quantities than others, and that these people need to learn to manage it.
If we lived in a world where people with (what I would call an oversupply of energy which often takes the form of anger), did not exist, or were bannished to the margins of society whenever it was discovered that they had this anger, then we would live in much duller, much less creative society.
Managing your energy and managing your anger is a skill that many of us need to learn, and when we learn to manage our anger, we're awesome.
The people who don't need to learn this are often more placid by nature. It doesn't make them superior, it just means they don't have any need to learn this skill.
Anger management therapy is fascinating and powerful. It's not about suppressing anger, or sedating yourself. It's about recognizing your flight or fight response, and not being passively led by it, but looking at things differently, and handling your emotions more intelligently.
I'm not saying she should stay with this guy, but I am saying that people in general should not throw out the good with the bad, and a lot of awesome people start off with anger until they learn to manage it. We're not bad, we just have some extra work to do before we become proper humans.
More...
Maybe this guy is a future abuser. I'm not saying she should stay with him. But I am saying, that I think that the world would be a much better place if anger was something which was treated as a kind of energy that some of us have in larger quantities than others, and that these people need to learn to manage it.
If we lived in a world where people with (what I would call an oversupply of energy which often takes the form of anger), did not exist, or were bannished to the margins of society whenever it was discovered that they had this anger, then we would live in much duller, much less creative society.
Managing your energy and managing your anger is a skill that many of us need to learn, and when we learn to manage our anger, we're awesome.
The people who don't need to learn this are often more placid by nature. It doesn't make them superior, it just means they don't have any need to learn this skill.
Anger management therapy is fascinating and powerful. It's not about suppressing anger, or sedating yourself. It's about recognizing your flight or fight response, and not being passively led by it, but looking at things differently, and handling your emotions more intelligently.
I'm not saying she should stay with this guy, but I am saying that people in general should not throw out the good with the bad, and a lot of awesome people start off with anger until they learn to manage it. We're not bad, we just have some extra work to do before we become proper humans.
104
@donna #15
As someone who grew up with a mother like you, let me say it is extremely destructive to a young woman's self image. Constantly making snarky comments, throwing things, random fits of anger? Yeah its "mom being mom" but it took me 3 years after moving out of my parents house to determine that "mom being mom" was actually "mom being batshit crazy self absorbed asshole bitch".
Because my dad was so involved with getting my mom to calm down all the time (when anger was directed at me), or involved in a fight with her when he couldn't stand the childish, inane arguements that would go on FOREVER if you did not conceed, I could not communicate with my parents when real issues came up for me. Like self mutilation, or being sexually assaulted.
Your children will never forget and they will never forgive you. They may be able to have a functional if distant relationship with you when they figure things out for themselves and have some time to cool down, but seriously. Get help. My mom refuses because of her victim complex. Don't make the same mistakes.
As someone who grew up with a mother like you, let me say it is extremely destructive to a young woman's self image. Constantly making snarky comments, throwing things, random fits of anger? Yeah its "mom being mom" but it took me 3 years after moving out of my parents house to determine that "mom being mom" was actually "mom being batshit crazy self absorbed asshole bitch".
Because my dad was so involved with getting my mom to calm down all the time (when anger was directed at me), or involved in a fight with her when he couldn't stand the childish, inane arguements that would go on FOREVER if you did not conceed, I could not communicate with my parents when real issues came up for me. Like self mutilation, or being sexually assaulted.
Your children will never forget and they will never forgive you. They may be able to have a functional if distant relationship with you when they figure things out for themselves and have some time to cool down, but seriously. Get help. My mom refuses because of her victim complex. Don't make the same mistakes.
105
@103
It doesn't matter whether he's an abuser or not. His behaviour is unpredictable and inappropriate. It causes his fiance stress emotional pain, and there's always that lingering fear about when it will go too far.
She doesn't have to leave him. Dan's advice is right. She should insist that he get anger management therapy. Not suggest. Insist. It should be a condition of their getting married.
It doesn't matter whether he's an abuser or not. His behaviour is unpredictable and inappropriate. It causes his fiance stress emotional pain, and there's always that lingering fear about when it will go too far.
She doesn't have to leave him. Dan's advice is right. She should insist that he get anger management therapy. Not suggest. Insist. It should be a condition of their getting married.
106
@103 - I appreciate what you're saying and can see what you mean by the energy thing. We love to psychoanalyze our dad and it has come up over and over that his depressive anger is like the dark side of his idealistic, passionate nature. (There is a reason great writers are famous for being depressed addicts.)
The problem is that people with this energy, to go with your term, so often feel like special snowflakes who are entitled, and have even been culturally allowed, to target their anger on their partners and children. And I have never known an angry person who didn't carry around a sense of entitlement about how everyone else in the world is supposed to act to suit them (and we're not talking about specific anger - everybody gets angry sometimes at some things). This thread is full of condemnation because angry people HURT PEOPLE. They abuse people, especially the children they have total power over. It is YOUR responsibility to manage your anger, not the job of everyone around you to soak it up. I say that generally to those who have this problem - it sounds like you specifically have done the work.
The problem is that people with this energy, to go with your term, so often feel like special snowflakes who are entitled, and have even been culturally allowed, to target their anger on their partners and children. And I have never known an angry person who didn't carry around a sense of entitlement about how everyone else in the world is supposed to act to suit them (and we're not talking about specific anger - everybody gets angry sometimes at some things). This thread is full of condemnation because angry people HURT PEOPLE. They abuse people, especially the children they have total power over. It is YOUR responsibility to manage your anger, not the job of everyone around you to soak it up. I say that generally to those who have this problem - it sounds like you specifically have done the work.
107
@103 - if a particular approach has been useful to you, in learning to manage your anger so it doesn't harm those around you, could you spell that out?
For me, keeping an anger journal was very helpful -- much more helpful, for instance, than trying to count while I was already angry... the counting came out as mean hisses, not much better than yelling. I wasn't an angry person before I had kids; my kids irritate the hell out of me, and I needed to learn new tools to deal with these new emotions. Since journaling, I'm better at knowing when anger is headed my way, so I can defuse the situation by getting us some food, or sending a petulant kid to his room in a calm voice, rather than let him go on and on until I snap.
For me, keeping an anger journal was very helpful -- much more helpful, for instance, than trying to count while I was already angry... the counting came out as mean hisses, not much better than yelling. I wasn't an angry person before I had kids; my kids irritate the hell out of me, and I needed to learn new tools to deal with these new emotions. Since journaling, I'm better at knowing when anger is headed my way, so I can defuse the situation by getting us some food, or sending a petulant kid to his room in a calm voice, rather than let him go on and on until I snap.
108
@ 106: I definitely recognize that sense of "entitlement". I've known people with anger management issues who (a) refused to recognize that they were angry, even when it was making other people uncomfortable, and (b) insisted that they were just expressing their feelings and any objection to this was an attempt to invalidate their feelings.
People have a right to feel whatever they feel. That doesn't mean they are right to feel that way, and it doesn't mean they have a right to make other people feel what they're feeling.
People have a right to feel whatever they feel. That doesn't mean they are right to feel that way, and it doesn't mean they have a right to make other people feel what they're feeling.
109
Ah, all the stories that start this way.
I had a boyfriend who sounds exactly (exactly) like this guy. Maybe half a decade later, he might now be your fiance! He got around to assaulting me eventually. I was doing something he didn't like (licking frosting off a spatula that was just going to go in the sink) and he jokingly told me to stop. I jokingly told him no. He less-jokingly told me to stop. I, still laughing, told him no. While we were talking, he was simmering water and oil in a pan. To make me stop, he flipped some of the highly-heated water/oil off his spoon onto my bare arm. When I stared at him and said, "Ouch, that hurt!" he just said, "Then you should have stopped." A few moments later, the seriousness of what he did dawned on him and he tried to hug me and apologize. It was /more/ of an impulse control issue than it was an I-get-off-on-hurting-women issue. That point is moot as fuck. I told him if he ever did something like that again, no one would find his body. He never did it again, but even though I was too stupid to leave him then and there, I ended the relationship soon thereafter. He stalked me for awhile because he LOVED ME SO MUCH.
I had a boyfriend who sounds exactly (exactly) like this guy. Maybe half a decade later, he might now be your fiance! He got around to assaulting me eventually. I was doing something he didn't like (licking frosting off a spatula that was just going to go in the sink) and he jokingly told me to stop. I jokingly told him no. He less-jokingly told me to stop. I, still laughing, told him no. While we were talking, he was simmering water and oil in a pan. To make me stop, he flipped some of the highly-heated water/oil off his spoon onto my bare arm. When I stared at him and said, "Ouch, that hurt!" he just said, "Then you should have stopped." A few moments later, the seriousness of what he did dawned on him and he tried to hug me and apologize. It was /more/ of an impulse control issue than it was an I-get-off-on-hurting-women issue. That point is moot as fuck. I told him if he ever did something like that again, no one would find his body. He never did it again, but even though I was too stupid to leave him then and there, I ended the relationship soon thereafter. He stalked me for awhile because he LOVED ME SO MUCH.
110
I'm a woman who used to be exactly like Donna -- explosions of frustration at inanimate objects, or short yelling arguments, that blow up hot but blow over almost immediately. I thought this was just normal behavior. This kind of verbal drama was normal at my house growing up -- parents, siblings, other relatives -- and I saw it with friends' parents, and with my high school boyfriends. So I thought my (male) partner was being too sensitive when he got angry at me for acting like this, or otherwise responded as though it was crazy, unreasonable behavior.
Then I got therapy and medication for my lifelong anxiety and depression. And suddenly, those moments of overwhelming frustration where I just had to explode -- didn't happen anymore. I realized it wasn't normal behavior. I realized it hurt me when my family did it. I realized it hurt him when I did it. I've explicitly acknowledged this to him and apologized for my behavior, and shown that I can successfully act differently and better.
I'm glad he didn't DTMFA, but he really would have been within his rights.
So I'd give FF's guy one chance to get help. Pick a time when he hasn't just blown up. Tell him explicitly (but calmly) how much it upsets, frightens, and hurts you when he blows up, that you love him but you just can't deal with this behavior for the rest of your life, so you've made an appointment for the two of you to see a counselor on X day and time. Even if he doesn't grasp yet that his behavior is not normal (the counselor should tell him that), he should grasp that you are really hurting and want to fix that. If he doesn't -- then DTMFA.
Then I got therapy and medication for my lifelong anxiety and depression. And suddenly, those moments of overwhelming frustration where I just had to explode -- didn't happen anymore. I realized it wasn't normal behavior. I realized it hurt me when my family did it. I realized it hurt him when I did it. I've explicitly acknowledged this to him and apologized for my behavior, and shown that I can successfully act differently and better.
I'm glad he didn't DTMFA, but he really would have been within his rights.
So I'd give FF's guy one chance to get help. Pick a time when he hasn't just blown up. Tell him explicitly (but calmly) how much it upsets, frightens, and hurts you when he blows up, that you love him but you just can't deal with this behavior for the rest of your life, so you've made an appointment for the two of you to see a counselor on X day and time. Even if he doesn't grasp yet that his behavior is not normal (the counselor should tell him that), he should grasp that you are really hurting and want to fix that. If he doesn't -- then DTMFA.
111
I don't see any use in the 'abandon someone' solution. If we abandoned every person who's every had a temper tantrum, we'd be a world of singletons, locked away in houses, only interacting with strangers.
On the other hand, therapy for one and their loved one is important here. But this sort of therapy is hugely embarrassing for the person needing to learn anger management. And many solutions you will try won't work... But that doesn't mean none will, or that ultimately it will not be worth trying.
So try. Somehow.
But the 'leave' solution is worth less than the money you paid for it.
On the other hand, therapy for one and their loved one is important here. But this sort of therapy is hugely embarrassing for the person needing to learn anger management. And many solutions you will try won't work... But that doesn't mean none will, or that ultimately it will not be worth trying.
So try. Somehow.
But the 'leave' solution is worth less than the money you paid for it.
112
102, I think there might be a difference of many degrees between your mom's abusive behavior and my mom's. What you described would just...never have happened. We would have been punished severely for disagreeing with her.
113
Donna, #15: I am you, and I'm the obvious product of a mother who yelled and was verbally abusive to me. I'm "better" than my mom - I don't make snarky comments, I don't say things like "I'll give you something to cry about", I always let my kids know that I love them and that they are primary in my life. I don't make them feel that if they mess up that I don't love them or love them less. When I yell, I acknowledge to my kids that I'm wrong to do it, then Mama takes a time out.
I know it springs from perfectionism and an inability to forgive myself for messing up on little things (also from my mom). But I can also see how I'm continuing to pass on my total inability to deal with my anger sometimes to my kids, particularly my daughter (who is 2, with all that entails). This is not a legacy that I want to perpetuate, so I'm doing therapy to try to stop it now, with me.
The anger journal is a good idea, and I'm going to try that, too.
I do believe that most parents yell sometimes, and honestly I find parents that don't ever yell a bit repressed and creepy. I'd rather someone be honestly angry at me and yell because then I know that all the bad feelings have come out and we can have a genuine reconciliation. But there's a line between justified parental anger and frustration and over-the-top flipping out, and I'd like to stay on one side of that line.
I know it springs from perfectionism and an inability to forgive myself for messing up on little things (also from my mom). But I can also see how I'm continuing to pass on my total inability to deal with my anger sometimes to my kids, particularly my daughter (who is 2, with all that entails). This is not a legacy that I want to perpetuate, so I'm doing therapy to try to stop it now, with me.
The anger journal is a good idea, and I'm going to try that, too.
I do believe that most parents yell sometimes, and honestly I find parents that don't ever yell a bit repressed and creepy. I'd rather someone be honestly angry at me and yell because then I know that all the bad feelings have come out and we can have a genuine reconciliation. But there's a line between justified parental anger and frustration and over-the-top flipping out, and I'd like to stay on one side of that line.
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