Slog
News & ArtsWednesday, February 23, 2011
Politics What the Wisconsin Governor Said When He Thought He Was Talking to a Koch
Posted by Eli Sanders on Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 12:40 PM
2
And in a past job as a restaurant host, accidentally insulted who he thought was the sausage king of Chicago.
3
As someone else pointed out on another forum,
• Walker admits having considered planting provocateurs in the crowd.
• Walker plans to trick state senate dems into meeting so that he can hold the quorum open, even without their presence.
• There's some bill being presented that forces the absent dems to pick up their checks in person, and if/when they do show up to get them, the checks will be locked in the desks on the house floor.
• 'Koch' calls up and gets a 20 minute, in-depth report from the governor; there is very little prodding from 'Koch'. Simply put, Koch is the boss.
• Walker's biggest public complaint about the protests is that many protesters are from out of state. Koch is very much from out of state.
• Walker admits having considered planting provocateurs in the crowd.
• Walker plans to trick state senate dems into meeting so that he can hold the quorum open, even without their presence.
• There's some bill being presented that forces the absent dems to pick up their checks in person, and if/when they do show up to get them, the checks will be locked in the desks on the house floor.
• 'Koch' calls up and gets a 20 minute, in-depth report from the governor; there is very little prodding from 'Koch'. Simply put, Koch is the boss.
• Walker's biggest public complaint about the protests is that many protesters are from out of state. Koch is very much from out of state.
5
haha... Walker wouldn't take the bait at all. "It's the right thing to do". What a rock star. WI public sector unions are looking doomed.
6
@3 You forgot the part where Democrats getting room/board paid for by unions while out of state is a major ethics violation/felony while Walker being flown to Cali and shown a hell of a time by Koch is amazing.
7
It would seem as though the Buffalo Beast is down. A pity, because I'd rather just read the transcript than listen to these two go on.
8
Oh look it's right-wing trolls on the Stranger comments. Hello, cretins! Welcome to the place where smart people dwell. You may feel uncomfortable here. Rest assured that is because you are imbeciles and cannot fully comprehend what is happening around you. My suggestion; immediate, painful suicide. It's the only real solution.
10
He seriously laid it all at his feet. The prankster only had to prod him on saying "Beautiful" every once in a while. Apparently, all "Koch" had to say to get through his assistants to Gov. Walker was throw out some conservative jargon and talk about deporting his maid. Amazing what billions in campaign funds can get you.
11
@1
You could always read the USA Today, where things are nicely simplified for you. It's a major story.
@5
Again, you don't appear to have read anything except the headlines. This only confirms the suspicion that right-wingers like yourself either have no critical thinking skills or simply refuse to use them if they do.
Unfortunately, any meaningful political debate was hijacked nearly fourteen years ago, and the only arguments have been between the idiots & those who actively use their brains. And because those who use their brains inevitably come to different conclusions, they've been stymied from doing anything in the face of the united idiots.
And, really, what can you do when your country is run by idiots?
You could always read the USA Today, where things are nicely simplified for you. It's a major story.
@5
Again, you don't appear to have read anything except the headlines. This only confirms the suspicion that right-wingers like yourself either have no critical thinking skills or simply refuse to use them if they do.
Unfortunately, any meaningful political debate was hijacked nearly fourteen years ago, and the only arguments have been between the idiots & those who actively use their brains. And because those who use their brains inevitably come to different conclusions, they've been stymied from doing anything in the face of the united idiots.
And, really, what can you do when your country is run by idiots?
12
He looks like Dumbya's beady-eyed, younger, meaner, even stupider brother.
Cheddar Revolution Now.
Cheddar Revolution Now.
13
The real problem is that no one (with authority) cares. They're all whores for the same group of super-rich people, and it's obvious now that the sadistic, neo-fascist, white-wing trash that stabs the "R" button on the Diebold SUX 5000 would rather see the whole country fail--even if it takes them down with us.
The right-wing propaganda in this country is so amateurish, ludicrous and poorly executed that only the totally insane or the aggressively stupid would actually believe it. And yet, here we are. If the Krotch-fuckahs say that working people are the enemy, then that's all it takes.
The right-wing propaganda in this country is so amateurish, ludicrous and poorly executed that only the totally insane or the aggressively stupid would actually believe it. And yet, here we are. If the Krotch-fuckahs say that working people are the enemy, then that's all it takes.
14
@6: Citation please. All I could find is that their rooms are being paid for by the State Senate Democratic Campaign.
15
@11 - I listened to all 20 minutes. Honestly, there isn't a whole lot there. The prankster was trying to goad him he wouldn't fall for it. The list @3 is weak. I am against public sector unions because they are unnecessary and wasteful. Happy to debate that.
Also, I did read the public school scandal article and I realize my comment in that thread was a stretch but I was just waiting for an instance of fraud in the public sector to counter Goldy's assertion that the juvenile prison scandal from a couple weeks back was only possible due to private companies. From what I could tell from this story, the private company was just the front of this public employee.
Also, I did read the public school scandal article and I realize my comment in that thread was a stretch but I was just waiting for an instance of fraud in the public sector to counter Goldy's assertion that the juvenile prison scandal from a couple weeks back was only possible due to private companies. From what I could tell from this story, the private company was just the front of this public employee.
17
@5/15, right on man, "rock star" indeed...billionaire polluters and their paid elected officials hoovering wealth up to the top are awesome, aren't they?
18
@17 - Public sector unions are not too embroiled in the issue wealth redistribution from the middle class to the upper class. It is an redistribution issue of private sector to public sector and that balance is already tipped in the public sectors favor by a 45% total-compensation advantage. The public sector needs to give some of that up before the take everybody down with them.
20
Yeah, was tough for me to read too.
@17 - Breaking public sector unions are not about hoovering wealth to the top. This is more an issue of transferring wealth from the private sector (taxpayer) to the public sector and that balance is already tipped in the public sector's favor by a 45% total-compensation advantage because they are generally not contributing to their retirement and health costs as private employees do. The public sector needs to give up some of that imbalance before they take everybody down with them.
@17 - Breaking public sector unions are not about hoovering wealth to the top. This is more an issue of transferring wealth from the private sector (taxpayer) to the public sector and that balance is already tipped in the public sector's favor by a 45% total-compensation advantage because they are generally not contributing to their retirement and health costs as private employees do. The public sector needs to give up some of that imbalance before they take everybody down with them.
21
@20: "This is more an issue of transferring wealth from the private sector (taxpayer) to the public sector."
Public sector workers are also taxpayers.
When you pay taxes, those taxes go (for the most part) to pay for government services and government salaries. There is no profit in the public sector, no shareholders who receive dividends, no CEOs and board members who get bonuses and private jets.
When you buy a car, some of the money goes to materials, some to capital costs, some to pay the wage of the workers... and a big chunk to line the pockets of shareholders, senior executives, and board members.
The public sector takes money from many people and redistributes it to many people.
The private sector takes money from many people and redistributes it to few people.
But it's the public sector that is the leech on society? Honestly, this is fucking looking-glass thinking.
Public sector workers are also taxpayers.
When you pay taxes, those taxes go (for the most part) to pay for government services and government salaries. There is no profit in the public sector, no shareholders who receive dividends, no CEOs and board members who get bonuses and private jets.
When you buy a car, some of the money goes to materials, some to capital costs, some to pay the wage of the workers... and a big chunk to line the pockets of shareholders, senior executives, and board members.
The public sector takes money from many people and redistributes it to many people.
The private sector takes money from many people and redistributes it to few people.
But it's the public sector that is the leech on society? Honestly, this is fucking looking-glass thinking.
22
@21- Thanks, I understand the differences between where my tax money goes and where the money to pay for my car goes. My comments were in response to 17 who raised the confusing issue of poor-to-rich wealth redistribution. But, yes, you have understood my argument that it is the public sector that is the biggest leech on society. Unionization simply further amplifies the blood sucking.
23
Ed Schultz did a segment on Gov. Walker the other day and the tagline they used was "Imperial Walker"
I'm not a huge Ed Schultz fan, but that was pretty clever.
I'm not a huge Ed Schultz fan, but that was pretty clever.
24
@22: No, I think your argument that the public sector is the biggest leech on society is full of shit.
No one ever became a billionaire in the public sector.
Look at the distribution of wealth. Look at the income of the top 1% compared to everyone else. How much of that top 1% is made up of public sector employees?
Public sector employees, represented by public sector unions, are the same as every other employee in every other industry. They have jobs to do, they do them, most of them do them well. And, as in other industries, they have formed unions to represent them collectively, giving them bargaining power in the marketplace.
Honestly. "Blood sucking?" You don't have a fucking clue what it is like for the average public sector employee, do you?
No one ever became a billionaire in the public sector.
Look at the distribution of wealth. Look at the income of the top 1% compared to everyone else. How much of that top 1% is made up of public sector employees?
Public sector employees, represented by public sector unions, are the same as every other employee in every other industry. They have jobs to do, they do them, most of them do them well. And, as in other industries, they have formed unions to represent them collectively, giving them bargaining power in the marketplace.
Honestly. "Blood sucking?" You don't have a fucking clue what it is like for the average public sector employee, do you?
25
I'd put this prank about one notch above the ACORN expose.
He tried to "trick" Democrats into showing up? Um, where are they, anyway?
He tried to "trick" Democrats into showing up? Um, where are they, anyway?
28
jesus will. hoovering there was great.
jesus venomlash, dont man.
is this like real? (the phone thing not the pick of the guy with his face blown off. btw what happened there?)
jesus venomlash, dont man.
is this like real? (the phone thing not the pick of the guy with his face blown off. btw what happened there?)
29
@24 - I could continue to debate on the road you want to go down but I'm a libertarian who doesn't even agree the government should be doing 1/10 of the things it does. Including education. So, maybe that will help you understand where I'm coming from instead of thinking I somehow misunderstand the basics of how our society functions. In general, I love how most people on here dismiss my free market economic views as "right wing, brain dead thinking" and then come back with "RICH = BAD" as some universal justification for taking the Democrat's side on any issue. That's why I was trying to point out this union issue wasn't one of rich vs. poor. It's an issue of an unsustainable system that has to change. I guess your implicit argument is that the rich should foot this bill. Shocker.
@27 - I don't even know what it means outside of Hooverville. 17 used it first and I just tried to take it in context.
@27 - I don't even know what it means outside of Hooverville. 17 used it first and I just tried to take it in context.
30
@29: "Your implicit argument is that the rich should foot this bill."
No. My implicit argument is that the public sector has value and that the people who work in the public sector have a right to bargain to be paid for the value their work provides.
Of course, if you don't see the value in a public sector, then there is no real point in making that argument.
And, if you don't see the value in the public sector, get off the public road. And the public side walk. And stop flushing your toilet that is connected to the public sewer.
I would suggest that if you "[don't] even agree the government should be doing 1/10 of the things it does. Including education," that perhaps you do indeed "misunderstand the basics of how our society functions."
No. My implicit argument is that the public sector has value and that the people who work in the public sector have a right to bargain to be paid for the value their work provides.
Of course, if you don't see the value in a public sector, then there is no real point in making that argument.
And, if you don't see the value in the public sector, get off the public road. And the public side walk. And stop flushing your toilet that is connected to the public sewer.
I would suggest that if you "[don't] even agree the government should be doing 1/10 of the things it does. Including education," that perhaps you do indeed "misunderstand the basics of how our society functions."
32
@ cliche: troll, troll, troll your boat...
Your ignorance on public sector workers and unions is spectacular, stupendous and awe-inspiring. Unless maybe it's just bitter spite.
Public employees make LESS money than private sector workers in similar jobs, and LESS in overall compensation, including retirement benefits. It's a trade-off they accept for a degree of employment stability. If you're so damned jealous, how come you never applied for one of those jobs?
Let me answer for you. You scoffed at the salaries. You were revulsed by the working conditions. You coveted the promotion opportunities available in the private sector.
You were happy making 50 to 100% more than your civil service neighbors, and you were even happier to "live the lifestyle" and spend the money. Meanwhile, civil servants essentially deferred that income for their future retirements, and had to live more modestly. Now, here you are, your little bubble has burst, and it's clear you were greedy, profligate and foolish, and you're jealous and bitter. Grow the fuck up.
Your ignorance on public sector workers and unions is spectacular, stupendous and awe-inspiring. Unless maybe it's just bitter spite.
Public employees make LESS money than private sector workers in similar jobs, and LESS in overall compensation, including retirement benefits. It's a trade-off they accept for a degree of employment stability. If you're so damned jealous, how come you never applied for one of those jobs?
Let me answer for you. You scoffed at the salaries. You were revulsed by the working conditions. You coveted the promotion opportunities available in the private sector.
You were happy making 50 to 100% more than your civil service neighbors, and you were even happier to "live the lifestyle" and spend the money. Meanwhile, civil servants essentially deferred that income for their future retirements, and had to live more modestly. Now, here you are, your little bubble has burst, and it's clear you were greedy, profligate and foolish, and you're jealous and bitter. Grow the fuck up.
33
@29 "I guess your implicit argument is that the rich should foot this bill“
I can't speak for BB, but just for myself - well, obviously!
By fairly straightforward deduction, your argument is that the poor should foot the bill. And seeing as the rich can afford it while the poor can't, in the name of pragmatism alone, surely you can see that my choice is better?
I'm a progressive lefty, but I'm willing to listen with respect to conservative or libertarian views that acknowledge the real world. So, in this case, the government funnels money up as well as down. If we want to cut the government, you and I could agree if we started by cutting the bits that funnel money up.
My problem is that people who claim to be conservatives often reject those kinds of changes out of hand (cutting military spending, cutting juicy PFI projects), while choosing to hammer on people like teachers. If that's not your game, then debate can be had.
I can't speak for BB, but just for myself - well, obviously!
By fairly straightforward deduction, your argument is that the poor should foot the bill. And seeing as the rich can afford it while the poor can't, in the name of pragmatism alone, surely you can see that my choice is better?
I'm a progressive lefty, but I'm willing to listen with respect to conservative or libertarian views that acknowledge the real world. So, in this case, the government funnels money up as well as down. If we want to cut the government, you and I could agree if we started by cutting the bits that funnel money up.
My problem is that people who claim to be conservatives often reject those kinds of changes out of hand (cutting military spending, cutting juicy PFI projects), while choosing to hammer on people like teachers. If that's not your game, then debate can be had.
34
@30 Yes, the public sector has value. But that value is not arrived at by market forces. It is arrived at by subsidies and political forces. A public sector union is to the Democrats what a Corporate donation is to a Republican. Both are bad for our system.
@32 - Quite sure you are wrong about private sector making more. I'm sure it varies based on the specific job but the WI issue mainly seems focused on teachers and public school teachers make more than their private counterparts.
@33 - I'm saying there doesn't need to be a bill that needs paying if the system wasn't rigged to fail from the start.
@32 - Quite sure you are wrong about private sector making more. I'm sure it varies based on the specific job but the WI issue mainly seems focused on teachers and public school teachers make more than their private counterparts.
@33 - I'm saying there doesn't need to be a bill that needs paying if the system wasn't rigged to fail from the start.
36
@Cliche, this is what happens to trolls like you on SLOG. Your views are diametrically opposed to nearly everyone who comments here. Unless you can come up with better than "quite sure you're wrong" and let's get rid of public unions because they are as bad as corporations regarding campaign donations (quite simply false), you aren't getting anywhere in a debate here.
37
@34, Cliche: No one is born being a teacher. It's an occupational choice, one that takes a certain amount of idealism and dedication. I could have been a pretty decent science teacher. Instead, I made a shitload more money, with less aggravation, doing IT systems development on Wall Street. Now, I wonder why I would have chosen that? Duh.
Unlike you, though, I have nothing but respect and support for those folks who DID decide to be teachers. For starters, without them, I never would have had my job.
Unlike you, though, I have nothing but respect and support for those folks who DID decide to be teachers. For starters, without them, I never would have had my job.
38
@36 - Oh, I know. I've been hanging around here for a few years. Obviously, nobody would admit in the comments that I made them rethink an issue that might have landed them outside their partisan box but I like to think that I have. I can certainly pull up links to the search results on WI teacher pay and make 32 look like an ass but it really is more the general ideas that I like to debate. If you really think about the system and still conclude public employees need collective bargaining to deal with the government at the expense of taxpayers then go ahead and side with the Dems.
39
Arguing cliche is like trying to have a serious conversation with a box of Kleenex. You will never get anywhere and all he has to offer is the exact same thing over and over and over again. At least with the Kleenex there are other uses for it.
40
@38, My politics are essentially socialist, having really thought about this I'm gonna side with the Democrats on this one. Also, collective bargaining with the government looks very much like some wording in the 1st amendment, the 'peaceable assembly/right to petition the government for redress' bit.
44
@41 - At least we'll always have our love of Hobbes in common. Unless my liking him makes you rethink your position on that. Not that you'd admit it if it did.
45
Show me a libertarian who uses no public resources, and I'll respect him. But I can't imagine anyone more self-deluded than a libertarian who lives in a city or town. They are not libertarians - they're just selfish fucks who found a convenient ideology that lets them resent paying their share.
Where do you live, cliche?
Where do you live, cliche?
46
Everyone here is missing the most important aspect of this debate. Last November the people of Wisconsin voted for their state representatives and administration. Those who won that election now our trying to do the work of the people who hired them. They cannot do that work, however, because the Democrats decided they don’t like democracy when it does not go their way. Let them have the vote and if the fire and brimstone that you guys are predicting for the state of Wisconsin does in fact happen, well you can bet that those evil Republicans will get voted right out and the Democrats can go on with the business of reversing Republican legislation.
My question for you guys is what system of government would you like instead since you obviously don’t agree with democracy?
My question for you guys is what system of government would you like instead since you obviously don’t agree with democracy?
47
cliche, ive actually enjoyed your last few comments. hearing where you are coming from makes it a little more interesting, plus when you aren't so snarky you sound less trollish. some of us prefer the ideologically extreme positions, where left meets right. in terms of pragmatism, i usually chafe at the more unrealistic ideas from the other reaches. so, that said, since we are talking about wisconsin's budget of course, it is interesting how this shit is being implemented along party lines. cops and firefighters? not being touched here. there are a number of ways to trim a budget, both tending to reflect one party's inclination. this is essentially a pragmatic issue. it's not like we are going tit for tat and the Repubs are going to cut defense, or legalize marijuana, or any number of crazy spending they are responsible for (I think, from the left, that Repubs are Far more responsible for fiscal irresponsibility).
Blah blah, anyway where this is heading, with shit done in an unbalanced way, is a tipping of democracy towards an oligarchy. This is a serious problem right now the far right the right does not acknowledge.
Blah blah, anyway where this is heading, with shit done in an unbalanced way, is a tipping of democracy towards an oligarchy. This is a serious problem right now the far right the right does not acknowledge.
48
@44: I'm a fan of Hobbes the tiger, not Hobbes the philosopher.
But on a more pertinent topic, there's got to be some term describing the sort of delusion of grandeur in which one believes that their discourse carries great weight with others but that those others are incapable of admitting it.
Samktg, glad you enjoyed those cute little bundles of fluff.
But on a more pertinent topic, there's got to be some term describing the sort of delusion of grandeur in which one believes that their discourse carries great weight with others but that those others are incapable of admitting it.
Samktg, glad you enjoyed those cute little bundles of fluff.
49
@33 47
The last two years Ron Paul has won the CPAC presidential straw poll. If you guys have never heard of Ron Paul I suggest you look into what he has said throughout his career about defense spending, I’m guessing you will be pleasantly surprised!
The last two years Ron Paul has won the CPAC presidential straw poll. If you guys have never heard of Ron Paul I suggest you look into what he has said throughout his career about defense spending, I’m guessing you will be pleasantly surprised!
50
@45 - I live in Seattle. I pay my taxes and utility bills. I'm a libertarian in the sense that I hate our two party system and there is no other fiscally conservative, socially liberal political ideology that I can identify with.
@48 - No delusion of grandeur here. I was just trying to defend myself against the troll accusations. 47 is right that the snark doesn't help.
@49 - Two sure fire ways to bring the wrath and ridicule of Slog is to mention either Ron Paul or Ayn Rand.
@48 - No delusion of grandeur here. I was just trying to defend myself against the troll accusations. 47 is right that the snark doesn't help.
@49 - Two sure fire ways to bring the wrath and ridicule of Slog is to mention either Ron Paul or Ayn Rand.
51
For the record I am not a fan of Ron Paul, I just want to point out that those who claim that conservatives are against defense spending cuts are not paying attention. Everything needs to be cut!
52
@29: Just want to point out that capitalism is by definition unsustainable, as any businessman will tell you that perpetual growth is necessary for the survival of any company. So, good luck reconciling that.
54
@51: Exactly one exception does not make it a less useful empirical generalization. Further: the fact that Ron Paul wants to cut defense spending is not of any use to anyone, anywhere, ever. Try again when someone or some group of persons who is politically impactful has that stance.
55
http://washingtonexaminer.com/politics/2…
I think the Tea Party has some political impact, but I could be wrong.
I think the Tea Party has some political impact, but I could be wrong.
57
The tea party is a wholly owned subsidiary of the GOP. They can claim that they want to cut defense spending all they like, but they're still in thrall to the republicans.
58
@57
Don't be surprised when you see defense spending cuts proposed and passed by Republicans. You heard it here first.
There is a lot of fat there to cut.
Don't be surprised when you see defense spending cuts proposed and passed by Republicans. You heard it here first.
There is a lot of fat there to cut.
59
Public employees and labor unions, the 2 scapegoats that Republicans want to wage their class warfare on.
@29, without an educated society, the social unrest would be great due to the lack of an educated, skilled labor pool and lack of good paying jobs. Most people do not have the wherewithal to pay for a private education. It is in the interest of our capitalist system to provide a public education to avoid violent social upheaval with firearms (otherwise known as civil war). That rich, elite bastard, Franklin D. Roosevelt realized this, so he administered the New Deal programs. The New Deal saved capitalism from itself. At the time of the Great Depression, the communist party was attractive to the down trodden, and it's membership in the United States swelled.
@29, without an educated society, the social unrest would be great due to the lack of an educated, skilled labor pool and lack of good paying jobs. Most people do not have the wherewithal to pay for a private education. It is in the interest of our capitalist system to provide a public education to avoid violent social upheaval with firearms (otherwise known as civil war). That rich, elite bastard, Franklin D. Roosevelt realized this, so he administered the New Deal programs. The New Deal saved capitalism from itself. At the time of the Great Depression, the communist party was attractive to the down trodden, and it's membership in the United States swelled.
60
@52: "capitalism is by definition unsustainable"
That's wrong. The eternal growth argument is nonsense. Who thinks any company is immortal? I must have missed that lesson when I was getting my MBA.
Just as markets for goods and services change over time, so do companies come and go and redefine themselves. It is not a requirement of capitalism that corporations are even for-profit.
That's wrong. The eternal growth argument is nonsense. Who thinks any company is immortal? I must have missed that lesson when I was getting my MBA.
Just as markets for goods and services change over time, so do companies come and go and redefine themselves. It is not a requirement of capitalism that corporations are even for-profit.
62
Cliche, I've got no idea where you're getting your figures for public vs private sector compensation, but according to the Economic Policy Institute public sector employees in WI make on average about 5% less than comparably trained/educated private sector employees. (http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/67…) That's total compensation, including benefits. No one enters the public sector looking to get rich.
Anyway, the part that's got a lot of Wisconsinites riled up is that public employee unions have agreed to all the financial concessions Walker has demanded, if they can only keep their collective bargaining rights. Walker has refused to even talk to them. Whereas he'll spend twenty minutes talking policy (and a number of ethics violations) with a fake Koch brother. Charming.
Anyway, the part that's got a lot of Wisconsinites riled up is that public employee unions have agreed to all the financial concessions Walker has demanded, if they can only keep their collective bargaining rights. Walker has refused to even talk to them. Whereas he'll spend twenty minutes talking policy (and a number of ethics violations) with a fake Koch brother. Charming.
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