Slog
News & ArtsMonday, February 14, 2011
Life Hello, I'm Not the Enemy
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 6:18 PM
I'm glad Lindy West loves herself and her body, and I'm happy that she's done with shame, and I think she's beautiful and charismatic and hilarious and I always have. I take issue, however, with Lindy's setting me up as some sort of boogey/straw man, attributing prejudices to me that I do not feel, and attempting to purge her fatshame by fathateshaming me. Arguing that the obesity epidemic should be off limits for discussion on Slog—or that Stranger writers, a notoriously snarky bunch, must slip on kid gloves before we sit down at our computers to post about this issue and this issue alone (really? at a publication that's joked about child rape, AIDS, and the Holocaust?)—because "fat people know they're fat" is simply ridiculous.
There are two things I'd like to clear up before I really get going...
Thing 1: I'm not Lindy West's "boss." I didn't hire her, I don't have the authority to fire her, I don't edit her. Lindy's post was courageous and it was inspiring—until the ad hominem attacks began—but it wasn't standing-up-to-the-boss brave. Because I'm not her boss. I could probably get her fired, I suppose, but I wouldn't try to do that, because she's brilliant and funny and, even if she disagrees with me, even if we come to rhetorical blows on Slog, we all argue all the time on Slog. What would Slog be without our intramural battles? What's different about Lindy's post is the personal nature of Lindy's attack. She's accusing me of bigotry and malice—she's accusing me of attacking her personally, which I've never done and would not do.
Thing 2: I was out of email, cell, and Internet range all weekend, starting Friday afternoon, and didn't get a chance to really sit down and read Lindy's post until late last night, and that's why I'm only just responding to it now.
Okay! Let the record show that I love that Lindy loves Lindy—everybody loves Lindy and so should Lindy—but I'm not so in love with the way Lindy used this quote from a Savage Love column I wrote more than seven years ago:
I am thoroughly annoyed at having my tame statements of fact—being heavy is a health risk; rolls of exposed flesh are unsightly—characterized as "hate speech."
That sounds bad floating out there in space like that, all removed from its original context and shit.
That's one sentence from a column that came at the end of a series of columns—a series of columns from 2004—that was not about the general unsightliness of fat people. It was about the late, unlamented fad for skin-tight, low-rise jeans coupled with midriff-baring tops. (The columns are here, here, and here.) The columns weren’t just critical of overweight or obese women in low-rise jeans and midriff-baring tops, but of women who didn’t have the right “proportions” to pull off that look; "most women" didn't look good in these getups, not just fat women. (Men came in for some slamming too.) In its original context the remark was not a reference to fat people's bodies generally, or a suggestion that fat people didn't have a right to live in their own bodies without shame (or wear those stupid jeans if they wished), but to a particular kind of pants that do not flatter most bodies, pants that created and exposed unsightly rolls of flesh on fat women, not-so-fat women, and not-at-all-fat women alike, pants that have mercifully been consigned to the dustbin of fashion history. I suspect that Lindy was casting around looking for the most damning possible sentence, found that one, and tossed it up on Slog. It's that or believe that Lindy was intentionally dishonest and manipulative. (And, yes, it could've been better put. Allow me to amend the record: "I am thoroughly annoyed at having my tame statements of fact—being heavy is a health risk; the rolls of exposed flesh created by low-rise jeans/high-rise tops are unsightly—characterized as 'hate speech.'" And thank God no one wears those fucking things anymore.)
As for the rest of the evidence of my supposed bigotry that Lindy links to in her post—sometimes snarky posts of mine linking to news stories about the obesity epidemic; links to research that gives lie to the diet-and-exercise-have-nothing-to-do-with-the-obesity-epidemic lie pushed by dishonest, vindictive, and codependent fat activists; a post of mine featuring a Tim Minchin song that I labeled "brutal" and "bullying" but whose title I happen to agree with strongly (can we all agree that people shouldn't feed donuts to their obese children?); discussions in a book I wrote a decade ago about the crazy fat people at the NAAFA convention (there are crazy fat people out there, Lindy, just as there are crazy gay people out there; be careful who you crawl into bed now that you're a "brave" hero to the FA movement for standing up to your bigoted "boss")—the bigotry in my posts exists only in Lindy's imagination. (Okay, I totally crossed the line when I made fun of Kate Harding's arms, which I've never even seen (they could be made of steel for all I know), and for that I apologize. I could dig up a few hundred emails from FA movement folks calling me a cocksucker, if it that would help balance the scales.)
Take Lindy's reaction to my "Ban Fat Marriage" post. Opponents of marriage equality in Iowa claim they want to ban gay marriage because gay men are unhealthy. By that logic, I wrote, "fat marraige" would also have to be banned in Iowa. Did I mean that fat people shouldn't be allowed to marry? Of course not. Does pointing out that there are a lot of fat people in Iowa—30% of the population of that state is obese—somehow "stigmatize" fat people? Um, no, not unless the existence of fat people is somehow inherently stigmatizing. I did point out that there are health risks associated with being obese—I had to in order to make the point that Republican legislators in Iowa are bigots—and you know what? There are health risks associated with being obese. There are also, as I've written until my fingers were numb, health risks associated with being gay and sexually active. (They're not the ones the bigots in Iowa are talking up; more on those health risks in a minute). Citing the prevalence of obesity in Iowa and mentioning the health risks associated with obesity to make a point about bigotry isn't by itself bigotry. So what was up with Lindy's reaction to that post? I think this reader is on to something:
I read your "Ban Fat Marriage" post. Applying the arguments for position X to analogous position Y in order to show that both arguments are spurious and indefensible is a standard and often effective tactic. Perhaps as a matter of discretion, you left out the "ick factor" that is often applied to gay (man-on-man, that is) sex, which could easily go with fat-on-fat sex as well, but when I mentioned the article to my spouse, I threw that in. Then I saw Lindy West's reactions "RE: Ban Fat Marriage" and "Hello, I am Fat." Apparently, Lindy isn't very good with reading comprehension, which is kind of startling since she writes for a living. Or maybe she suspends her reading comprehension and reasoning skills whenever the subject of "fat" is broached. I'd wager the latter is the case.
I'm going to start numbering these things, à la Lindy, because I wanna get through this and return to my regularly scheduled life:
1. Lindy cites that particular quote, above, as proof that I'm a bigot. She claims to know what I think about fat people and how I feel about fat people and leaps from there to claims that I think fat people are gross and that I don't want fat people touching me (no more hugging my relatives, I guess), which she then condemns me for. Ad hominemineminem. (I'm on an airplane sitting next to a fat person RIGHT NOW, Lindy! A fat person I'm sharing my NYT with! I even let her do the crossword! Because I HATE!) It's hard to disprove a charge of bigotry without resorting to some-of-my-best-friends-are—and on this subject I can resort to I-once-was-myself (relevant email from my brother after the jump)—but I'm not an anti-fat bigot ,and one piece of material evidence I could point to might be all the people of varying sizes that I have hired or had a hand in hiring over the years. The first thing I said to Lindy when we met in person wasn't "Unsightly! Unsightly!" but "Your film reviews are amazing—we've got to get you on staff." If that's bigotry... (Discrimination in the workplace is a huge problem for the obese... but not at the Stranger, despite the place being partly run by a fatpohbic bigot. Weird.)
2. I never claimed to be concerned about Lindy's health. The science is in: obesity has serious potential health consequences. Which is not to say that all the obese folks are unhealthy and all the skinny bitches are healthy. Individual results may vary. But being seriously overweight is likely to harm a person's health. That said...
I have always maintained that people have a right to live their lives and pursue their pleasures, wherever they find them, even if there are potential negative health consequences, even at the risk of shortening their lives. There are health consequences to being obese—the First Lady agrees, Lindy, go get her!—but like I wrote at the end of the gluttony chapter in Skipping Towards Gomorrah, we should all have the right to live however we damn well please without being stigmatized or discriminated against. But we don't have a right to demand that other people pretend that there aren't health consequences involved with being obese, with smoking, with eating meat, with skiing, and, yes, with being gay and sexually active. Sexually active gay men have much higher rates of sexually transmitted infections, higher rates of HIV transmission, higher rates of drug and alcohol abuse (sometimes that drug and alcohol abuse is rooted in self-hatred, which the wider society is responsible for creating; sometimes it's rooted in destructive community norms, which gay men are responsible for creating and perpetuating). I've written about the risks gay men face—the potential negative health consequences of being gay and sexually active—until my fingers were ready to fall off. Was that bigoted of me?
3. I could give a shit about health-insurance premiums. I support a government-run, single-payer health care system, one that spreads everyone's risks around—the obese, the gay, the smoker, the skier, etc. I've no doubt linked to stories about the health care costs associated with the obesity epidemic because, you know, it's an aspect of the obesity-epidemic story and I'm interested in this story. (I'm a sex-and-relationship columnist; I could no more avoid questions about bodies and health and size than I could avoid questions about blowjobs and assfucking and cunnilingus.) I believe that the extra burden the obese place on our health care system should be borne without complaint just as the extra burden the HIV-positive place on the health-care system should. (And, hey, have I mentioned that my seventy-year-old dad is a smoker and on Medicare?) But there's nothing bigoted about encouraging the obese to take steps to improve their health—that usually means making the kinds of changes that lead to weight loss—any more than there's something bigoted about encouraging gay men to use condoms, fuck fewer people, stop using meth, etc.
4. I'm interested in the obesity epidemic—what causes it, how it got this bad, what we're going to do about it—and I'm angered by what I perceive to be the dishonestly of many FA movement activists. I think the obesity epidemic is remarkable, which is why I remark on it, and I will continue to remark on it so long as I'm blogging, and I reserve the right to make the odd snarky remark. I will continue to post the links to stories about the obesity epidemic that catch my eye, stories like this that give the lie to the whole lack-of-exercise-has-nothing-to-do-with-it crap pushed by fat-acceptance crowd:
Adult obesity rates rose in 28 states last year, the report says.... Among the [report's] findings: In a dozen states, more adults reported getting absolutely no regular physical activity beyond their jobs. It’s not likely a coincidence that the fattest state, Mississippi, also has the highest rate of physical inactivity in adults. There was a lot of overlap in the most-obese and least-active lists.
This stuff interests me not just because it pisses off the FA crowd. It's interesting all on its own.
5. The takeaway from Lindy's post—once the euphoria of our pleasure in Lindy's triumph over her self-loathing fades—seems to be this: Fat people already feel bad, so shut up. Reading about obesity reminds fat people they're fat and they already know they're fat and feel bad about being fat, so shut up. And diet and exercise never work and even if they worked for you it’s unpossible for a heavy person to keep the weight off so why bother, so shut up. And shut up because your not shutting up is making it harder for fat people not to hate themselves and only after fat people stop hating themselves and lose the shame can they... begin to lose the weight that they can't actually lose. And shut up.
I find that very confusing and confused.
And finally...
Look, Lindy, I hear you. You don't like my posts about obesity. You don't think they're helpful. They're not necessarily meant to be helpful. You seem to assume that I post in the hope that fat people will read my posts and drop the weight. That's not my motivation; neither is shaming fat people. I'm interested in the obesity epidemic and I'm following the news about it and I assume other people are too and I'm posting about it and I'm ticked off about some aspects of it (including, yes, the vitriol that has been aimed at me over the years). And, yes, I believe that people should be fit—fit, not skinny; active, not sticks—not because Fat Is Gross, but because healthy—which doesn't always translate to skinny—is better than non-healthy. It's pretty much the same reason why I think people shouldn't smoke or fuck strangers without protection or play on railroad tracks or smoke meth or vote Republican.
I am not, however, responsible for your shame (RIP). You arrived at my posts with your shame, my posts didn't create it, and you managed to conquer your shame despite my posts. Good for you. (No snark intended in that "good for you." Seriously, Lindy, good for you.) If you don't want to read my posts about this subject—about any subject—just skip 'em.
And finally-for-real-finallyfinallyfinally... if you had written to me at my column seeking my advice about all of this (and I realize you didn't and I realize that now I'm the one pretending that I can read your thoughts—but, hey, you pretended you could read mine, so looks like we're even), here's what I would have to said after reading your letter: It sounds like you're externalizing an internal conflict about being fat—you're projecting your anger and self-loathing onto to me, and seeing malice and bigotry where none exists, and perhaps that's useful because that anger seems to be liberating and motivating. If having your own personal boogeyman on Slog helps you conquer your shame and love your body and this helps you break out of old, self-destructive patterns and habits (you can't be losing weight now just because your attitude changed), then I'm happy to be your own personal boogeyman. But honestly, Lindy, you don't need one. You're stronger than that.
················
Here's the email from my brother Bill...
When you do have time to respond to Lindy: note how often these people (LW included) use anecdotal evidence and generalize to the Whole World about it. She cannot lose weight dieting, so it's not possible. Then you might talk about our family.
You were fat as a kid. You started exercising and eating right and voila, you're not fat.
Other family members, not so much. Post a link to our CHF talk, where I look like fucking buddha for crissakes. if you and I both have genetically preset weights which our bodies just naturally go to, then we'd be roughly similar given our shared genetic backgrounds. But I don't exercise as much as you do (my biking not withstanding, I haven't been to a gym in years) and I don't eat as well as you do and so I'm 20 to 25 lbs overweight.
You and Eddie exercise a lot, eat right and are in good shape.
If they get to generalize anecdotes about themselves, so do you.
The ultimate irony in all of this? I still feel like the fat kid.
1
Dan; Dan, get a grip. And get an editor, or if you can't find one (most likely), ask someone on staff to give you a hand. You lost me about a third of the way through this mess.
2
pithier. i only have so much time for reading when there are NSFW Jenna Haze advertisements all over Slog.
5
Dan, you are going to catch major shit for your reply, I'm sure. I do appreciate the balls it took Lindy to write her message and think perhaps you underestimate that here.
But as someone who has read your blog & column for years, and listened to your podcast since its inception, I agree that you have shown sensitivity and consistency in your responses to individuals who have called on you for advice, regardless of their body mass. I also concur that your "ban fat marriage" post was the reductio ad absurdum response to a ludicrous proposal for banning gay marriage.
Like other readers, the fact about Lindy's post that stunned me the most was the degree of support it elicited from your fellow staffers at The Stranger.
I hope you found time to talk to Lindy privately about this matter before you posted your response on Slog.
But as someone who has read your blog & column for years, and listened to your podcast since its inception, I agree that you have shown sensitivity and consistency in your responses to individuals who have called on you for advice, regardless of their body mass. I also concur that your "ban fat marriage" post was the reductio ad absurdum response to a ludicrous proposal for banning gay marriage.
Like other readers, the fact about Lindy's post that stunned me the most was the degree of support it elicited from your fellow staffers at The Stranger.
I hope you found time to talk to Lindy privately about this matter before you posted your response on Slog.
6
Oh fer Chrissakes you two, get a room! And after a few hours have passed and Lindy has consumed your right arm for sustenance, then shake hands (presumably with your left now) and go about your rightful business of telling people that "nobody cares where or in whom you stick it" and "every movie that people without a brain and/or soul like is awful."
9
Wow! This fight has gotten crazy, out of hand!!! Just my 2 cents... My brother and I eat really well and exercise regularly, and we're both thin. He's actually an amateur cyclist. Our parents are big, our grandparents are big, our aunts, uncles, cousins, most of them are big. My mom started making some small changes- walking, no soda, and she went from being round to curvy.
I think part of the problem is that when we talk about the obesity epidemic, there's this sense that we're talking about anyone who's not a size 2. I have friends who are curvy and healthy. On the other hand, I have some friends who are just plain round, can't take a walk with their kids, and are doing nothing to change themselves.
I think part of the problem is that when we talk about the obesity epidemic, there's this sense that we're talking about anyone who's not a size 2. I have friends who are curvy and healthy. On the other hand, I have some friends who are just plain round, can't take a walk with their kids, and are doing nothing to change themselves.
12
This is one step closer to the dance-off, I hope. The last sentence reminded me of this, from hydrozoa @865 in the Lindy thread.
like, i pride myself for being smart, talented, funny, stylish, kind, charming, for my dozens of other fine qualities, but the idea that my naked body could disgust total strangers trumps them all.
13
I don"t think Lindy generlizes her experience, in fact that is the opposite of what she does. She doesn't say she can't lose weight ever, just that she hasn't managed to, and that that very issue is totally beside the point. Your brother is making the same argument half the people in that thread are making which is "Oh you could but you're not trying hard enough" which is essentially bullshit. It's often true but not always, and sometimes it is too hard to ask of anyone, so it's best to shut up about that point altogether.
Her post is not about the impossibility if anyone losing weight, it's about casual, off=handed remarks by people like you about subjects that can be hurtful to others.
Her post is not about the impossibility if anyone losing weight, it's about casual, off=handed remarks by people like you about subjects that can be hurtful to others.
14
This response seems ..... shitty. It firmly assigns Lindy to flailing uselessly all by her crazy self. Dan, you really missed the mark. I so wanted to hear you say something kind and reconciling.
15
Don't back down, Dan. Pro-Lindy bias and fat acceptance dogma aside, you have mostly been even-handed on the topic. Also appreciate you methodically taking on Lindy's arguments and seemingly damning quotations of your past columns, and tearing down her misleading juxtapositions.
16
I still feel like the fat kid.You know how the former smokers can be the most annoying about smoking bans? Well....
17
I am probably the only one to write this, Bravo Dan. I think you could have just given a couple thrust, thrust, parry, and your post would had been done.
18
The ultimate irony in all of this?
that all of Dans' non-denial denial and weak sauce backpedaling doesn't make him look all that fat in his bigoted pants; yet indeed, it still does make him look like a huge ass.
that all of Dans' non-denial denial and weak sauce backpedaling doesn't make him look all that fat in his bigoted pants; yet indeed, it still does make him look like a huge ass.
19
So a few people (yourself included) started out fat and lost weight. Therefore, everyone can do it! As someone said on another site, the plural of anecdote is not data.
The problem is that you have made many comments saying eww, fatties even if you say other stuff about it being okay to be fat. As it is, we're all left assuming you are to fat people what super homophobic Republican politicians are to teh gayz- secretly afraid of your own proclivities and how people would look at you if they knew your dirty dirty secret. If you don't have a problem with fat people, stop convincing us you have a problem with fat people. JUST KNOCK IT THE FUCK OFF.
The problem is that you have made many comments saying eww, fatties even if you say other stuff about it being okay to be fat. As it is, we're all left assuming you are to fat people what super homophobic Republican politicians are to teh gayz- secretly afraid of your own proclivities and how people would look at you if they knew your dirty dirty secret. If you don't have a problem with fat people, stop convincing us you have a problem with fat people. JUST KNOCK IT THE FUCK OFF.
20
Here is my take (and I know you have been waiting for it).
Dan, sometimes you could choose your words or tone better. Like I said in Lindy's post, I think you have a blind spot to how hurtful your tone can be on this issue. We all have them as they relate to some thing - for some of us, I'm sure that blind spot is how we treat our bodies.
Some of the things you say about obesity annoy me. Of course, some of the things you say about religion annoy me, too, as to some of the things you say about pit bulls and their owners (I'm not one, but my boss - who has a crush on you, by the way - is).
Now, I can say the same thing about just about every contributer and commenter on Slog. But I keep coming back, because at least what gets posted here is interesting, generally intelligent, and not completely nuts (Mudede not withstanding). Compared to what I get to read in the online forums of my local "paper" here in the heart of the Bible belt, it is refreshing. People aren't blaming ever ill in society on "those people" on the other side of town (North Baton Rouge, in my case), they aren't arguing that by teaching evolution in the schools, we are teaching children incorrect information, or that every single person should be armed with multiple weapons and able to carry concealed everywhere they go.
The price of admission here is knowing that you don't agree with everything that is said, that the snarky, sarcastic tone is part of the "fun" of the site, and that honest debate (minus any personal attacks) is encouraged.
The only time that I didn't abide by that was the time that Charles posted something totally outrageous about dead parents at Christmas. As my own grief at losing my parents was particularly acute, I admit that I resorted to a personal attack. Kinda.
Okay. I said "Fuck you." For me, that's about as nasty as it gets.
More...
Dan, sometimes you could choose your words or tone better. Like I said in Lindy's post, I think you have a blind spot to how hurtful your tone can be on this issue. We all have them as they relate to some thing - for some of us, I'm sure that blind spot is how we treat our bodies.
Some of the things you say about obesity annoy me. Of course, some of the things you say about religion annoy me, too, as to some of the things you say about pit bulls and their owners (I'm not one, but my boss - who has a crush on you, by the way - is).
Now, I can say the same thing about just about every contributer and commenter on Slog. But I keep coming back, because at least what gets posted here is interesting, generally intelligent, and not completely nuts (Mudede not withstanding). Compared to what I get to read in the online forums of my local "paper" here in the heart of the Bible belt, it is refreshing. People aren't blaming ever ill in society on "those people" on the other side of town (North Baton Rouge, in my case), they aren't arguing that by teaching evolution in the schools, we are teaching children incorrect information, or that every single person should be armed with multiple weapons and able to carry concealed everywhere they go.
The price of admission here is knowing that you don't agree with everything that is said, that the snarky, sarcastic tone is part of the "fun" of the site, and that honest debate (minus any personal attacks) is encouraged.
The only time that I didn't abide by that was the time that Charles posted something totally outrageous about dead parents at Christmas. As my own grief at losing my parents was particularly acute, I admit that I resorted to a personal attack. Kinda.
Okay. I said "Fuck you." For me, that's about as nasty as it gets.
21
No matter how much you you defend yourself, no matter how much you hide behind your non-leadership position at the Stranger, and no matter how much you apologize for just being one of a bunch of snarky Stranger writers, Dan, you're still a bully and a sociopathic narcissist, and every column inch of your career proves it.
23
It's fair to call her on using a comment of yours, taken out of context, to assign to you feelings (about fatties) that you don't hold.
24
Dan, I've been reading you and listening to you for 7 years and I am fat. I will say that your ambiguity towards fat does come through, but I've never felt shamed by you, incidentally or on purpose. I really appreciated parts of Lindy's post - I get where she's coming from - but I also think that you are pretty even keeled about this whole thing.
I'm sure that there are people out there who are happy being fat, but I'm not, and your outlook on this topic has actually helped me take steps to make myself better - like eating right and working out, and even when I'm not losing weight I feel better.
It's a pretty complicated and touchy topic, but neither one of you are the villains.
I'm sure that there are people out there who are happy being fat, but I'm not, and your outlook on this topic has actually helped me take steps to make myself better - like eating right and working out, and even when I'm not losing weight I feel better.
It's a pretty complicated and touchy topic, but neither one of you are the villains.
26
This whole argument was fun at first, but now it seems to be to heated, condescending, etc. Lindy and (especially) Dan's posts seem to have been written in moments of passion, and the end result is what reads as overemotional, childish writing. These posts remind of when I was in high school and my friends and I would write bitchy e-mails to each other when we were pissed off.
The obesity epidemic and fat acceptance are important issues that deserve to be debated clearly and intelligently. Both Lindy and Dan should have waited at least a day to cool down before publishing these posts.
The obesity epidemic and fat acceptance are important issues that deserve to be debated clearly and intelligently. Both Lindy and Dan should have waited at least a day to cool down before publishing these posts.
27
True fact - the first thing this response made me think of was long ago when SL used to start out with "Hey Faggot". Those were the days. But, alas, either you pussed out (like you made it seem when you stopped doing it), or you got bored.
Whatever.
Dan Savage is a dick. A frighteningly skinny dick. With really nice arms.
Own it. Is DS abrasive when talking about overweight folks - sure.
Does he have a point when it comes to the societal detriments - kind of.
Was this response overly long, and a bit Sarah Palin after Tuscon-y? You betcha.
But damn, it is fun to watch.
Whatever.
Dan Savage is a dick. A frighteningly skinny dick. With really nice arms.
Own it. Is DS abrasive when talking about overweight folks - sure.
Does he have a point when it comes to the societal detriments - kind of.
Was this response overly long, and a bit Sarah Palin after Tuscon-y? You betcha.
But damn, it is fun to watch.
28
Oh my God.
Grow up, both of you. I'm so tired of wading through your tired bitter bullshit. It's Valentine's Day, and you are a love advice columnist. Is this really the best way for you to spend it?
If she's really attacking a strawman that isn't your position, you are under no obligation to defend yourself. Let her rage against her imaginary attacker. Don't subject us to wall after wall of text.
Isn't there some letter in your bag about a crazy, awesome fetish or a lesson you can teach us about how to treat Valentine's Day when we are single/unhappy? Make it stop.
Grow up, both of you. I'm so tired of wading through your tired bitter bullshit. It's Valentine's Day, and you are a love advice columnist. Is this really the best way for you to spend it?
If she's really attacking a strawman that isn't your position, you are under no obligation to defend yourself. Let her rage against her imaginary attacker. Don't subject us to wall after wall of text.
Isn't there some letter in your bag about a crazy, awesome fetish or a lesson you can teach us about how to treat Valentine's Day when we are single/unhappy? Make it stop.
31
Dan,
In following this, it's been my hunch that while you accuse Lindy of projecting, you yourself project your fat-phobia in your writing.
But remember: You are one sidelining injury (knees, back, etc.) from losing your six-pack.
And, don't ever get a health condition where you have to go on steroids.
In following this, it's been my hunch that while you accuse Lindy of projecting, you yourself project your fat-phobia in your writing.
But remember: You are one sidelining injury (knees, back, etc.) from losing your six-pack.
And, don't ever get a health condition where you have to go on steroids.
32
I'm eating popcorn with a drizzle of organic olive oil and a sprinkle of sea salt.
Just kidding, fuck you Dan, I'm drinking a protein drink I bought at Grocery Outlet because my fat-but-much-stronger-than-yours ass works out several times a week.
You sound just like my grandma when she tried to kick me out of the house when I came out to her at 16. I told her I'd stay in the closet for as long as I could handle and she would shut the fuck up and stop prying into my life. Oh, it's for your own good, oh, I'm using science, oh, I'm trying to have your best interests in mind, oh, I had feelings kinda like yours when I was young, oh, ME ME ME. I can do it, too.
You're just pissed that your advice, your bread, your life's work, is being treated like dickery. SURPRISE! YOU GIVE BAD ADVICE FROM TIME TO TIME! STOP TWISTING IN THE WIND.
Just kidding, fuck you Dan, I'm drinking a protein drink I bought at Grocery Outlet because my fat-but-much-stronger-than-yours ass works out several times a week.
You sound just like my grandma when she tried to kick me out of the house when I came out to her at 16. I told her I'd stay in the closet for as long as I could handle and she would shut the fuck up and stop prying into my life. Oh, it's for your own good, oh, I'm using science, oh, I'm trying to have your best interests in mind, oh, I had feelings kinda like yours when I was young, oh, ME ME ME. I can do it, too.
You're just pissed that your advice, your bread, your life's work, is being treated like dickery. SURPRISE! YOU GIVE BAD ADVICE FROM TIME TO TIME! STOP TWISTING IN THE WIND.
33
It is nice to read you. And, I hope that you and Lindy have spoken.
I get that you still feeling like a fat kid, I still feel like the "four-eyed freak" at times.
Take care, Dan.
I get that you still feeling like a fat kid, I still feel like the "four-eyed freak" at times.
Take care, Dan.
35
Dan, I think you need to step back a bit.
First, I think it's super shitty how you are saying that any criticism Lindy (a fat person) has of your writing about fat people is invalid because she's just so sensitive. That is a classic wrong move.
Second, your tone is a big problem because you truly do not come across as an ally. When you write about gays or the holocaust or child rape, there is never a doubt that you are on the "right" side on those issues. When it comes to fat people, you write as if you are truly disgusted. Therefor, it reads more like a right-wing tea party blog about the health perils of homosexuality, rather than the buddy-buddy vibe you think you have.
Third, this "muffin top" quote is absolutely not about being dismayed by ugly pants, because in the same sentence you write about the health perils of being too fat. You don't lead into your muffin-top quote with your opinions on the ghastly colours in this year's fall shows. The whole point of that sentence was fat=bad.
Finally, to pathologize you the same way you just did to LIndy, maybe you should examine your own shame at still seeing yourself at a "fat kid". It would explain a lot of your obsession with the subject. Your advice to individual readers is usually compassionate and fair, but your posts about the subject at large are usually full of condemnation. Gee, it's almost as if you like fat people individually, but fear and loathe them as a group!
First, I think it's super shitty how you are saying that any criticism Lindy (a fat person) has of your writing about fat people is invalid because she's just so sensitive. That is a classic wrong move.
Second, your tone is a big problem because you truly do not come across as an ally. When you write about gays or the holocaust or child rape, there is never a doubt that you are on the "right" side on those issues. When it comes to fat people, you write as if you are truly disgusted. Therefor, it reads more like a right-wing tea party blog about the health perils of homosexuality, rather than the buddy-buddy vibe you think you have.
Third, this "muffin top" quote is absolutely not about being dismayed by ugly pants, because in the same sentence you write about the health perils of being too fat. You don't lead into your muffin-top quote with your opinions on the ghastly colours in this year's fall shows. The whole point of that sentence was fat=bad.
Finally, to pathologize you the same way you just did to LIndy, maybe you should examine your own shame at still seeing yourself at a "fat kid". It would explain a lot of your obsession with the subject. Your advice to individual readers is usually compassionate and fair, but your posts about the subject at large are usually full of condemnation. Gee, it's almost as if you like fat people individually, but fear and loathe them as a group!
36
The big thing is, Dan, your rhetoric contributes to the shame a lot of fat folks feel- in the same way that anti-gay rhetoric contributes to the shame a lot of gay folks feel. Should gay folks "just not read" anti-gay stuff? Or should we fight against it because, as Lindy said, shame does not help liberate people.
It's true that there are a lot of unhealthy people in this country. And for a lot of them that makes them fat. But by the time you're an adult, only so much can be done. Michelle Obama's initiative is combatting childhood obesity by encouraging all kids to get more physical activity and eat better, and she doesn't encourage it by saying hateful things about fat kids. Her site says things like "engaging in physical activity as a family can be a fun way to get everyone moving. "
So, no, don't put on kid gloves- let's face the hard facts about how unhealthy our nation is. But let's not just talk about how bad for you being fat is if we want to change things. Let's talk about how awesome being physically active and eating right can be!
It's true that there are a lot of unhealthy people in this country. And for a lot of them that makes them fat. But by the time you're an adult, only so much can be done. Michelle Obama's initiative is combatting childhood obesity by encouraging all kids to get more physical activity and eat better, and she doesn't encourage it by saying hateful things about fat kids. Her site says things like "engaging in physical activity as a family can be a fun way to get everyone moving. "
So, no, don't put on kid gloves- let's face the hard facts about how unhealthy our nation is. But let's not just talk about how bad for you being fat is if we want to change things. Let's talk about how awesome being physically active and eating right can be!
39
A lot of times I read letters to Dan and his responses are like cool, crisp and delightful - arrows that shoot straight to the heart of the matter. This one feels more conflicted, like the radio station keeps cutting out. But if we're assigning points, as we seem to want to do, his is more straight-up than Lindy's. And I think Dan's final sentence clinches it - "The ultimate irony in all of this? I still feel like the fat kid." We live in a complicated society, guys. And we're all affected it. It was still a thoughtful response, and pretty fucking honest. I have read Dan for years and years and I've never picked up any shitty little judgments from him about any particular group, except maybe right wing Republicans. And in that case, who can really blame him?
40
Dan, the thread got out of control, because people are pissed off and defensive about their ability to not fuck whoever they want because they are not in the "proper shape." They are hurt, and shamed and feel ugly, for years of being stigmatized. Short of giving them their secret high school crush, or "curing the social stigma." entirely against fat people, I don't think they will hear you. You are a SEX ADVICE COLUMNIST, and people listen to you and pay attention to you, because well, they like sex. If they feel threatened in any way shape or form that you are dismissing their sexuality (even though you aren't) they will cry foul.
But Dan, you are snarky about everything which is why I love it. Plus size peoples, for better or for worse, get it from all ends in society. At some point, I don't think it's your problem. I mean, do they look to you to be role model for fat acceptance? Do you have to compensate them for the disproportionate amount of rejection that plus size people receive?
Otherwise, why would so many people give a shit? They perceive your fat phobia as a threat, when no ... I think you are very clear on your record.
As for the overweight. "God grand me the serenity to accept the things I can not change, change the things I can not accept, and the wisdom to the know the difference."
I mean, for what it's worse, you could have cerebral palsy. Dan I remember the most painful podcast you seemed to do when you were giving sex advice to handicapped people. Which was AWESOME, but your quote, "It's times like these I just want to shoot myself in the head." Because sometimes there is no answer, and you are more than willing to acknowledge it.
But Dan, you are snarky about everything which is why I love it. Plus size peoples, for better or for worse, get it from all ends in society. At some point, I don't think it's your problem. I mean, do they look to you to be role model for fat acceptance? Do you have to compensate them for the disproportionate amount of rejection that plus size people receive?
Otherwise, why would so many people give a shit? They perceive your fat phobia as a threat, when no ... I think you are very clear on your record.
As for the overweight. "God grand me the serenity to accept the things I can not change, change the things I can not accept, and the wisdom to the know the difference."
I mean, for what it's worse, you could have cerebral palsy. Dan I remember the most painful podcast you seemed to do when you were giving sex advice to handicapped people. Which was AWESOME, but your quote, "It's times like these I just want to shoot myself in the head." Because sometimes there is no answer, and you are more than willing to acknowledge it.
43
Dearest Baconcat:
I initially read, "You sound just like my grandma when she tried to kick me out of the house when I came on to her at 16."
Tonight I will have a nightmare about a geriatric female dog getting hit on by a gay teenage boy and someone spilling bacon fat all over the kitchen floor. I can see it coming like a freight train.
I initially read, "You sound just like my grandma when she tried to kick me out of the house when I came on to her at 16."
Tonight I will have a nightmare about a geriatric female dog getting hit on by a gay teenage boy and someone spilling bacon fat all over the kitchen floor. I can see it coming like a freight train.
46
thanks for answering dan. i was worried for a minute that you wouldn't. that said may i also state that dis-abling comments on those previous posts were a mis-step.
but all in all ..thanks for responding.
but all in all ..thanks for responding.
47
@43: AHAHAHAHA... I haven't made any suggestive comments of the sort to my dear sweet ol' grandma, but I have said inappropriate things to her. Like suggesting she push a stroller down an escalator "because you're old, who's going to prosecute you" and "go on, tell her you hate white people, do it".
48
God Dan, you lost me as soon as your started defending yourself by referring to the infamous muffin-top posts. (Girlie Love Handles, or GLHs I think you called them) I thought you were out of line then (I mean, what do YOU care how women dress---if they look ridiculous, that's THEIR problem. Who made YOU the fashion arbiter?), and I can't believe you're using it in your defense now.
49
@35--'Gee, it's almost as if you like fat people individually, but fear and loathe them as a group!'
Exactly how I feel about Christians, Republicans and Slog commenters.
Dan, I'm sure you spent the better part of the day on this, and I hope you and Lindy can continue to work together, but the sharks smell blood in the water and they will now circle this post and spew, spew, spew. Just move along....
Exactly how I feel about Christians, Republicans and Slog commenters.
Dan, I'm sure you spent the better part of the day on this, and I hope you and Lindy can continue to work together, but the sharks smell blood in the water and they will now circle this post and spew, spew, spew. Just move along....
50
What I find.... confusing.... about Dan's defense of himself is that if someone else had written it, but replaced "fat/obese" with "gay," I would bet at least half a farm that Dan's reply to this hypothetical poster would be "Yeah you hired gay people, and are giving lip service to being all accepting, but your homophobic comments and overall attitude still mark you as a dirty homophobe."
Dan asks if he and other staff members must have "kid gloves" on, and are never allowed to make snarky comments about "the obese." (Fat... Overweight... Obese... why do these differing terms always seemed to get rolled into one?) But isn't that what the anti-bullying movement is all about, that it isn't the one snarky comment made by one kid that creates the suicide, it's the one snarky comment made by several kids a couple of times combining with a homophobic society that preaches what you are is WRONG?
Isn't complaining that when someone's feelings are hurt, they're just oversensitive the whole cornerstone of bullying?
And yes, Lindy probably took some of that internalized anger and shoved it onto Dan, but isn't that what Dan is doing when he takes down the homophobes of the world... Taking that internalized anger and self-disgust and shoving it back in the faces of people who maybe don't realize what asses they are being?
And yes, Dan, you do talk honestly about how the gays maybe need to stop with the unprotected butt sex... But you also balance that out with lots of complex information about the homosexual community.
Where is the complicated take on the "obesity epidemic?" I wouldn't have nearly a big a problem with you writing about it if you took the time to examine it from lots of sides... Economic explanations, the cross between obesity race and gender, body chemistry. What even IS obese? How do we measure it? How do we TALK about it? (The fact that we use the words "fat" "overweight" and "obese" interchangeably is illuminating.) Medical, psychology, anthropological. Instead, most of your posts about it are "Obese is unhealthy. Stop being obese. The end."
Where's the critical thought, where's the questioning that you bring to gay issues? For instance, this line: "sometimes that drug and alcohol abuse is rooted in self-hatred, which the wider society is responsible for creating; sometimes it's rooted in destructive community norms, which gay men are responsible for creating and perpetuating." Beautiful! Thought provoking and yet still truthful.
Couldn't that same line be applied to the "obese" person? Why do destructive gay behaviors get a complex narrative, but destructive "obese" behaviors do not?
It just makes me sad because this seems like SUCH a great place for two marginalized groups to come together and empathize, and yet we're either angry (Lindy) or defensive (Dan.)
More...
Dan asks if he and other staff members must have "kid gloves" on, and are never allowed to make snarky comments about "the obese." (Fat... Overweight... Obese... why do these differing terms always seemed to get rolled into one?) But isn't that what the anti-bullying movement is all about, that it isn't the one snarky comment made by one kid that creates the suicide, it's the one snarky comment made by several kids a couple of times combining with a homophobic society that preaches what you are is WRONG?
Isn't complaining that when someone's feelings are hurt, they're just oversensitive the whole cornerstone of bullying?
And yes, Lindy probably took some of that internalized anger and shoved it onto Dan, but isn't that what Dan is doing when he takes down the homophobes of the world... Taking that internalized anger and self-disgust and shoving it back in the faces of people who maybe don't realize what asses they are being?
And yes, Dan, you do talk honestly about how the gays maybe need to stop with the unprotected butt sex... But you also balance that out with lots of complex information about the homosexual community.
Where is the complicated take on the "obesity epidemic?" I wouldn't have nearly a big a problem with you writing about it if you took the time to examine it from lots of sides... Economic explanations, the cross between obesity race and gender, body chemistry. What even IS obese? How do we measure it? How do we TALK about it? (The fact that we use the words "fat" "overweight" and "obese" interchangeably is illuminating.) Medical, psychology, anthropological. Instead, most of your posts about it are "Obese is unhealthy. Stop being obese. The end."
Where's the critical thought, where's the questioning that you bring to gay issues? For instance, this line: "sometimes that drug and alcohol abuse is rooted in self-hatred, which the wider society is responsible for creating; sometimes it's rooted in destructive community norms, which gay men are responsible for creating and perpetuating." Beautiful! Thought provoking and yet still truthful.
Couldn't that same line be applied to the "obese" person? Why do destructive gay behaviors get a complex narrative, but destructive "obese" behaviors do not?
It just makes me sad because this seems like SUCH a great place for two marginalized groups to come together and empathize, and yet we're either angry (Lindy) or defensive (Dan.)
51
Still can't own your shit, can you, Dan?
Count me among the people who used to admire you. No more.
Count me among the people who used to admire you. No more.
52
Dan, you cannot win here. You are thin and therefore the enemy. You are being realistic, unapologetic, and snarky, which anyone familiar with your work should expect.
Stay flawless, haters are fat, literally.
Stay flawless, haters are fat, literally.
53
So you can't talk about obesity without walking on eggshells? No wonder this is the fattest country on earth.
Wait - should I have worded that differently?
Wait - should I have worded that differently?
54
I want to give everyone hugs.
Thank you, Dan, for this post. Thank you, Lindy, for your post. I love you both.
Thank you, Dan, for this post. Thank you, Lindy, for your post. I love you both.
55
I saw Dan at Madison Beach last summer. Trust me, it isn't great. He's all mushy. No six pack. Hairy. Just your average middle-aged dude. Frankly, I'd have expected a lot more from a body fascist.
56
Wait, it's okay for people to say whatever they want about Dan because some people take some of his statements out of context to "prove" he's a bigot... but Dan's not allowed to point out things that show these people are incorrect? That's messed up.
You keep on keepin' on, Dan. Some of us (who happen to be fat, even) get what you're really about, and we appreciate it.
You keep on keepin' on, Dan. Some of us (who happen to be fat, even) get what you're really about, and we appreciate it.
57
I love Lindy and Dan. And I think schmacky's reply was spot-on.
I've met Lindy once in person and she's a doll! I can't say enough good things about her. Dan? I've seen him speak. I've never bumped into him out and about on the Hill like I have Lindy. But he has a kid and a husband. That's probably why.
I've met Lindy once in person and she's a doll! I can't say enough good things about her. Dan? I've seen him speak. I've never bumped into him out and about on the Hill like I have Lindy. But he has a kid and a husband. That's probably why.
58
This is not at all the response I had expected from you, Dan. And your whole " I'm not Lindy West's "boss." I didn't hire her, I don't have the authority to fire her, I don't edit her. I could probably get her fired, I suppose" speaks volumes. You didn't need anyone to make you look like an ass, you did that all by yourself.
60
I liked the post. I thought it was well written and expressed Dan's exasperation. If people really wanna bitch about being picked on for being fat they should talk to me, although I have managed to cultivate a more live and let live attitude in the past few years.
61
@58 Good call. I think it's time for Dan to move on. He doesn't need the Stranger anymore. His career is elsewhere. And if he needs to be right so badly, more than to understand an issue - yah. It's time to move on.
62
"Hello, I'm Not the Enemy",
maybe not a full on enemy, but still there are far too many Quisling-esque elements in your approach. IMO.
maybe not a full on enemy, but still there are far too many Quisling-esque elements in your approach. IMO.
64
Oh ferchrissake. Take it outside.
Honestly, after your snarky, smartass, fatbashing, you had it coming. Now take it like a man.
Honestly, after your snarky, smartass, fatbashing, you had it coming. Now take it like a man.
65
As someone who fastidiously exercises, is a Nazi about food, and is in excellent health, and yet, is still 20 pounds overweight, I have to agree that you are a bit fat-phobic. But so am I. So are most people. And it makes sense. We aren't socialized to like big bodies anymore, because we don't need to survive in starvation situations, and being big is now a sign of un-health. Ultimately, it is a shameful attitude, and we should judge people (if we judge at all) based on their overall health, not their size. However, it cannot go unsaid that people who are fit generally are not 30 or 300 pounds overweight.
66
It's not really my place to weigh in on this--puns!--but if I was silent every time it wasn't my place, well... I'd be someone else. Or at least working somewhere else. Because this is one of the few places you can comment on anything and, you know, keep your job. So I'll say this: Slog's a very public platform for people who like each other to disagree. So. Kudos to Dan for creating a venue where folks can spit at him. Kudos to Lindy for taking on at formidable debater.
As for the "fat is changeable" "no it isn't" argument and its many nuances... I refuse to go there. But I will go here: I applaud Dan's track record on this issue--and lots of other issues--and I applaud Lindy for tackling it from a personal perspective. I give them both good scores, frankly.
Responding to some criticisms, what's not amazing here is that someone is standing up to her boss (again, Savage encourages this stuff). It's that she's taking on a good fighter. I love watching the jolly good show, but some folks have reduced an obviously complicated issue to a two-dimensional argument (hate vs. weight) or a simple reading of a workplace dynamic (stand up to that mean boss). Anyone who buys into that or thinks Savage is anything short of gracious around here--he's is so polite in person it's actually a little unsettling--misses the point entirely.
As for the "fat is changeable" "no it isn't" argument and its many nuances... I refuse to go there. But I will go here: I applaud Dan's track record on this issue--and lots of other issues--and I applaud Lindy for tackling it from a personal perspective. I give them both good scores, frankly.
Responding to some criticisms, what's not amazing here is that someone is standing up to her boss (again, Savage encourages this stuff). It's that she's taking on a good fighter. I love watching the jolly good show, but some folks have reduced an obviously complicated issue to a two-dimensional argument (hate vs. weight) or a simple reading of a workplace dynamic (stand up to that mean boss). Anyone who buys into that or thinks Savage is anything short of gracious around here--he's is so polite in person it's actually a little unsettling--misses the point entirely.
67
Thanks for writing this. For me, this whole thing hasn't been about who's right/who's wrong/who's the enemy, but about watching smart people argue. It is my favorite sport.
69
Seriously, how did this become a thing? I just want Dan's normal blog back. Complete with enlightened commentary on the obesity epidemic or bigoted shaming of the obese, whatever your point of view may be.
70
Holy shit, how many words is all this drivel? Nobody's going to read all this. I got through two paragraphs and was bored out of my skull. Lindy was pity and funny, she wins.
72
Oh, you Stranger staffers and your fucking "reasonableness." The Slog has spoken: WE WANT OUR DANCE-OFF, AND WE WANT IT NOW, BITCHES!
74
Lindy lied about Dan being her boss. Sorry, I just lost all respect for the bitch.
I feel for her and what she is going through in a society that is biased against fat people. And her post was enlightening for me.
But her post reeked of victimhood and frankly, her examples of Dan's fatphobia were weak.
For everyone droning on about how being fat is a health problem - do you really think that you are helping? Do you think that there is one fat person in the US that has not heard that about 10 million times during their lifetime?
Back to Lindy, I suspect that she is nothing more than an attention-hungry whore who lied about Dan to get sympathy.
Lindy, you don't do anyone any good by lying.
I feel for her and what she is going through in a society that is biased against fat people. And her post was enlightening for me.
But her post reeked of victimhood and frankly, her examples of Dan's fatphobia were weak.
For everyone droning on about how being fat is a health problem - do you really think that you are helping? Do you think that there is one fat person in the US that has not heard that about 10 million times during their lifetime?
Back to Lindy, I suspect that she is nothing more than an attention-hungry whore who lied about Dan to get sympathy.
Lindy, you don't do anyone any good by lying.
75
@10, evidently he can't - Savage has about the worst case of white privilege this side of former Stranger writer ECB.
@32, I'm straight and totally disagree with you on the Viaduct, but you're kinda cute when you're mad :)
@51, nailed it.
@58 and 61, Yup.
Dan Savage is THE classic bully - he can dish it out, but he can't take it.
@32, I'm straight and totally disagree with you on the Viaduct, but you're kinda cute when you're mad :)
@51, nailed it.
@58 and 61, Yup.
Dan Savage is THE classic bully - he can dish it out, but he can't take it.
76
@ Kim in Portland, in response to something from Lindy's thread (I'm done with that one), I never said I was "disappointed." Please don't put words in my mouth - that's not what I meant by "surprised." Maybe I should have been more clear. Heck, maybe I shouldn't have said it at all... so, I apologize. Take care.
78
Jesus H. Christ. Have any of these FA people actually read your column?! 'Kid gloves' don't apply, but you treat everyone with respect and I have never read you treat any group differently because they were a member of such-and-such a group. You're as nice and helpful to the babysitting pedophile as you are to the jack-ass with the clay fetish. However, both what makes your column great and what makes every angry fat acceptance person with a laptop write angry tumblr messages about you is simply this: You are an avid proponent of PERSONAL ACCOUNTABILITY.
Pedophile needs to make sure he doesn't touch kids. Creepy clay guy needs to accept that locking his wife out of the bathroom was a dick move. Asexual person needs to tell sexual people that he's 'grey-A'. And fat people, either people who aren't happy being fat or whose partners aren't happy with their being fat, need to lose weight.
Fat acceptance people, or even worse, "Fat is an incurable disease" people, deny personal accountability. They refuse to accept it. Any of it. And since Dan is such a strong proponent of taking responsibility for your own shit, he is butting heads with them.
Pedophile needs to make sure he doesn't touch kids. Creepy clay guy needs to accept that locking his wife out of the bathroom was a dick move. Asexual person needs to tell sexual people that he's 'grey-A'. And fat people, either people who aren't happy being fat or whose partners aren't happy with their being fat, need to lose weight.
Fat acceptance people, or even worse, "Fat is an incurable disease" people, deny personal accountability. They refuse to accept it. Any of it. And since Dan is such a strong proponent of taking responsibility for your own shit, he is butting heads with them.
79
BTW Dan, (and @ 74, you must have missed this), but if you're not Lindy's boss, why does Dominic @ 66 call you her boss?
80
I used to be fat. I was 220 pounds at 5'8". I was also a closeted gay. But more than that, my entire family was short and round, so I figured I was destined to be short and round.
Then I went to college and, amazingly, lost weight without even trying. What changed? I was eating healthier foods and was more active. No longer was I eating my midwestern public school lunches of chicken and dumplings served with mashed potatoes, government, cheese, and a roll with a Big Mac for dinner and pizza after the basketball game. Simple. Apparently from what I've read on SLOG this doesn't work for everyone. Good to know. But it works for lots of us, and I've managed to keep the weight off for over 15 years b/c of a total lifestyle change--not b/c of a fad diet or whatever.
I've also known Dan personally for several years. And the caricature of him that some people put forward just couldn't be farther from the truth. He's thoughtful, caring, and kind. Interested and interesting.
It's easy to create some idea of a person in order to tear him down and denigrate him. It's easy, but it's wrong.
Then I went to college and, amazingly, lost weight without even trying. What changed? I was eating healthier foods and was more active. No longer was I eating my midwestern public school lunches of chicken and dumplings served with mashed potatoes, government, cheese, and a roll with a Big Mac for dinner and pizza after the basketball game. Simple. Apparently from what I've read on SLOG this doesn't work for everyone. Good to know. But it works for lots of us, and I've managed to keep the weight off for over 15 years b/c of a total lifestyle change--not b/c of a fad diet or whatever.
I've also known Dan personally for several years. And the caricature of him that some people put forward just couldn't be farther from the truth. He's thoughtful, caring, and kind. Interested and interesting.
It's easy to create some idea of a person in order to tear him down and denigrate him. It's easy, but it's wrong.
81
Lindy is definitely coming across as the winner here. Dan, you're coming across as a completely inconsiderate ass.
82
Oh, for Christ's sake, when did Privilege Denying Guy become the inverse Godwin's Law for oversensitive, pseudointellectual internet vigilantes? You do not win the argument because an overused macro is on your side.
Not even going to comment further. This is too much of a mess for me.
Not even going to comment further. This is too much of a mess for me.
83
Mr. X., nonsense. If you take all of Dan's comments and blogs and columns that relate to fat-issues, it's crystal clear he's not fat-phobic and is not a bully. And dragging in race to a conversation that has not had anything to do with race says a lot more about you than it does about Dan.
84
As usual, Dan unpacks and nails a complicated issue with clarity.
He left one thing out though: DTMFA.
She tried to pin all of her issues on you by trying to humiliate you in front of thousands and thousands of your captive audience who choose to come here, and BEYOND because it got picked up all over the Internet. It had/has the potential to corrupt your image and could seriously tarnish your reputation. I wouldn't want such a loose cannon to have the keys to SLOG.
That was incredibly unprofessional, even if she ~can~. What's next?
He left one thing out though: DTMFA.
She tried to pin all of her issues on you by trying to humiliate you in front of thousands and thousands of your captive audience who choose to come here, and BEYOND because it got picked up all over the Internet. It had/has the potential to corrupt your image and could seriously tarnish your reputation. I wouldn't want such a loose cannon to have the keys to SLOG.
That was incredibly unprofessional, even if she ~can~. What's next?
85
I used to work in a psych hospital. The absolute worst thing that could ever happen was if two borderline personality patients were put on the same unit at the same time. They would immediately begin trying to out-do each other in the "how much hell can I raise" department. It was truly a terror to behold.
This spat between Dan and Lindy sorta reminds me of that.
That said though, I absolutely love both Dan and Lindy.
This spat between Dan and Lindy sorta reminds me of that.
That said though, I absolutely love both Dan and Lindy.
86
It's unclear what exactly the "Fat Acceptance" movement is railing about. It seems to blur between three goals:
1. Legal Rights, like the right to not be fired for being overweight. I'm totally on board with that; equality for all!
2. Being Treated Courteously, i.e. not having to put up with snickering, rolled eyes, fat jokes, etc. I'm on the fence there; we make jokes about race and age and religion and gender and sexual orientation, and I don't think fat should be off-limits. Again, equality for all.
On the other hand, there's a difference between occasional snarky comments and a sustained campaign of verbal harassment, of the kind that caused the bullycides that inspired the It Gets Better project. I can also see how the one anti-fat comment I might make on Friday could be the twentieth anti-fat comment that person that day.
3. Removing the Social Stigma from Fatness. Sorry, not gonna happen. There's social stigmas for all kinds of things that aren't really our faults: being ugly, being dumb, being poor, being short, being disabled, etc. And most people are attracted to pretty, smart, well-off, tall, able-bodied, and yes, thin people, and that too will not change. Those of us who fall into the other categories just suck it up and deal; there are no Ugly People Acceptance or Short People Acceptance movements. I'm not sure why (some) FA folks seem to think they merit an exception, or why they think yelling at moderates is going to somehow get them what they want.
1. Legal Rights, like the right to not be fired for being overweight. I'm totally on board with that; equality for all!
2. Being Treated Courteously, i.e. not having to put up with snickering, rolled eyes, fat jokes, etc. I'm on the fence there; we make jokes about race and age and religion and gender and sexual orientation, and I don't think fat should be off-limits. Again, equality for all.
On the other hand, there's a difference between occasional snarky comments and a sustained campaign of verbal harassment, of the kind that caused the bullycides that inspired the It Gets Better project. I can also see how the one anti-fat comment I might make on Friday could be the twentieth anti-fat comment that person that day.
3. Removing the Social Stigma from Fatness. Sorry, not gonna happen. There's social stigmas for all kinds of things that aren't really our faults: being ugly, being dumb, being poor, being short, being disabled, etc. And most people are attracted to pretty, smart, well-off, tall, able-bodied, and yes, thin people, and that too will not change. Those of us who fall into the other categories just suck it up and deal; there are no Ugly People Acceptance or Short People Acceptance movements. I'm not sure why (some) FA folks seem to think they merit an exception, or why they think yelling at moderates is going to somehow get them what they want.
87
Dan,
Lindy used your own words. The article which she linked to in full spoke volumes, and was no "ad hominem attack". You're a fucking hypocrit. She called you on it. Deal with it. Your gayness does not trump her (our) fatness as a social stigma.
You got called on your shit, and dang if she doesn't have your number spot-on.
Lindy used your own words. The article which she linked to in full spoke volumes, and was no "ad hominem attack". You're a fucking hypocrit. She called you on it. Deal with it. Your gayness does not trump her (our) fatness as a social stigma.
You got called on your shit, and dang if she doesn't have your number spot-on.
88
@84: Exercising free speech on a newspaper's blog is unprofessional? Are you in the military, or something?
89
Some people seem to forget that Dan only responds to people who ASK for his advice. A person who writes in and mentions that they are fat, or their partner is fat, and it's a problem, well they DID ask for it. More often than not, fat = unhealthy.
And I mean seriously fat, not like size 16 or 18.
You ask a question, don't bitch when you don't like the answer. And if you DIDN"T ask the questions and don't like the answer, STFU and GFTO.
And I mean seriously fat, not like size 16 or 18.
You ask a question, don't bitch when you don't like the answer. And if you DIDN"T ask the questions and don't like the answer, STFU and GFTO.
91
Clearly, most of you people lack basic reading comprehension. Or, you're overly emotional people who read whatever you feel into what other people write.
What Dan said in this post is just the longer version of what he said in the first post, neither of which were "fat-shaming" or in any way derogatory.
If you people are truly going to be this dense, I'm going to have to go elsewhere for my intelligent commentary on the internet, and quite frankly, I don't know where that would be.
Dan and Lindy, keep it up. I'm truly enjoying the debate--it's a rare commodity nowadays.
What Dan said in this post is just the longer version of what he said in the first post, neither of which were "fat-shaming" or in any way derogatory.
If you people are truly going to be this dense, I'm going to have to go elsewhere for my intelligent commentary on the internet, and quite frankly, I don't know where that would be.
Dan and Lindy, keep it up. I'm truly enjoying the debate--it's a rare commodity nowadays.
92
Honestly, Lindy's post was just self-righteous and boring. I'm fattish, have been for a long time, and still think Dan is right.
93
88: as The Stranger has asserted in the past, it is not a newspaper. Further, "~free speech~" protections on a proprietary blog? Are you fucking kidding me?
94
@87: I can't believe you just said "You're.. fucking.. her... shit". Really offensive, man. What? I used your own words. Oh, I'm supposed to quote enough of your words at a time to give context? It's not fair to pick out small bits of longer material to make a point? You mean, like quoting one sentence out of context from a seven year old column? Like that?
Kudos, Dan. You'll never please those folks who need to have an enemy to rally against, and the League of the Perpetually Offended is definitely out in force. But well said nonetheless. Lindy could just as easily have picked pretty much anyone to blame for her self-loathing, and you were just convenient.
Kudos, Dan. You'll never please those folks who need to have an enemy to rally against, and the League of the Perpetually Offended is definitely out in force. But well said nonetheless. Lindy could just as easily have picked pretty much anyone to blame for her self-loathing, and you were just convenient.
95
@83,
Just to do a Savage, here are my two comments on Lindy's original piece,
"Dan Savage's lack of empathy for people he regards as his lessers would make a typical sociopath blush."
""Dan Savage may be a thin person, but he's also a very, very small one."
Straight-up white upper middle class male privilege, all the way (with a double helping of sanctimoniousness and elitism on the side).
Just to do a Savage, here are my two comments on Lindy's original piece,
"Dan Savage's lack of empathy for people he regards as his lessers would make a typical sociopath blush."
""Dan Savage may be a thin person, but he's also a very, very small one."
Straight-up white upper middle class male privilege, all the way (with a double helping of sanctimoniousness and elitism on the side).
96
This whole fat hate debate is hardcore. Thank you Dan for having the courage to walk through the minefield. I think I'm going to sit back here with my bag of Doritos and laugh.
97
I'm feeling about this fight about how I felt about the 2004 presidential election. The debates and the campaign didn't change how I felt about Bush or Kerry much at all, but I sure felt a lot less close to my fellow Americans for putting Bush back in power.
This time it's a little better, since I gett to like both candidates (Dan and Lindy) and neither one of them are fucking up my country. But I have a dramatically lower opinion of the Slog commentariat after reading through the stupid, stupid Dan Savage pile-on and the petty, mean-spirited *actual* anti-fat bullying in these two threads.
That said, just like in 2004, I do have a side here: I'm voting for Dan. I've just heard/read too many humane things about fat and body image in the column and podcast over the years to buy into the Dan-is-a-hater thing.
This time it's a little better, since I gett to like both candidates (Dan and Lindy) and neither one of them are fucking up my country. But I have a dramatically lower opinion of the Slog commentariat after reading through the stupid, stupid Dan Savage pile-on and the petty, mean-spirited *actual* anti-fat bullying in these two threads.
That said, just like in 2004, I do have a side here: I'm voting for Dan. I've just heard/read too many humane things about fat and body image in the column and podcast over the years to buy into the Dan-is-a-hater thing.
99
Dan, as a young woman battling my own weight issues. I just want to say that I've never been offended by anything you've shared or said about the obesity epidemic. I'm lucky I'm only 20lbs over weight. I can lose it and am. It's unfair and wrong for people to blame you for their feelings of inadequacy. Those of us who are over weight (or under weight for that matter) have no one to blame but ourselves for being lazy or eating the wrong foods.
Keep sharing the interesting articles. They've helped motivate me and have taught me alot about the lies in the obesity issue.
Much love. <3
Keep sharing the interesting articles. They've helped motivate me and have taught me alot about the lies in the obesity issue.
Much love. <3
100
If you're fat and happy. Good for you. If you're not happy with your weight, it's within your power to do something about it. People aren't staying fat because Dan Savage repeats what medical experts have been saying for decades.
101
I love Dan Savage. It's so sad that a bunch of crappy hipsters started hating on him once he got successful. You and Green Day, Dan; you and Green Day.
102
Re: "5. the takeaway from Lindy's post". I don't understand what was so confusing about her message? Try substituting "please stop" for "shut up" ... Please stop with the snarky comments about fat people. It doesn't help. In fact, it makes it harder for us, so please stop... Why is this message so difficult to get?
If it's the tone of her post that gets you, well, I think that's called getting a taste of your own medicine, or karma, or, I don't know, maybe fairness?
Look, Dan, I won't lie, I often enjoy your snarky observations. And although I've struggled with a few extra pounds here and there, I'm not fat, and I have not been above making the occasional mean fat joke or cutting observation myself. Lindy's post made me think about that. And, I'll admit, I think it's asshole behaviour. It's also hypocritical, and I'll probably think twice before I do it again, or at the very least acknowledge that I'm being an asshole when I do it. I really appreciated her post for getting that message across.
It's not the first time. For example, there was a time, many years ago, when I used the words "fag" and "that's so gay" the same way. It wasn't until I heard similar protests from gay people and their allies that I started rethinking it.
I've already re-posted this once, but I think it's worth it again: Why Are Thin People Not Fat?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6-A0iHSd…
The takeaway from that documentary? Weight loss is much, much harder for some people than others. It's time we started to respect that fact.
If it's the tone of her post that gets you, well, I think that's called getting a taste of your own medicine, or karma, or, I don't know, maybe fairness?
Look, Dan, I won't lie, I often enjoy your snarky observations. And although I've struggled with a few extra pounds here and there, I'm not fat, and I have not been above making the occasional mean fat joke or cutting observation myself. Lindy's post made me think about that. And, I'll admit, I think it's asshole behaviour. It's also hypocritical, and I'll probably think twice before I do it again, or at the very least acknowledge that I'm being an asshole when I do it. I really appreciated her post for getting that message across.
It's not the first time. For example, there was a time, many years ago, when I used the words "fag" and "that's so gay" the same way. It wasn't until I heard similar protests from gay people and their allies that I started rethinking it.
I've already re-posted this once, but I think it's worth it again: Why Are Thin People Not Fat?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6-A0iHSd…
The takeaway from that documentary? Weight loss is much, much harder for some people than others. It's time we started to respect that fact.
103
Americans love an aggressor, no matter how "truthy" they are. In this case that's Lindy, so good luck Dan. You're not going to win back the crowd because the FA community has a vocal, victim-mentality group of dedicated backers with a long list of talking points to shout you down with. Nobody likes a rebuttal that doesn't try to take back the offensive and twist the blame back on the attacker, because that's just weaksauce and Americans don't like pussies, even if they're right. (For an extensive case study, see Republicans v.Democrats.)
104
Wow, out of all the topics covered on Slog, this is the one that garners hundreds upon hundreds of responses? I guess that pays the bills, but holy crap is this a boring non-issue.
105
Dan, you are brilliant. And honestly, the "shame" stuff doesn't have to be "shaming," it can be motivating! When my doctor tells me I'm obese, I get the FUCK to the gym. Tough love is a great motivator, as long as it's not cruel!
106
Remember how Dan Savage doubled down on his dumb Iraq war cheerleading? He really thought he was right about that. Wouldn't listen to anybody. But eventually there wasn't hardly nobody left who could deny that invading Iraq was dumb, dumb, dumb.
And Savage finally admitted he didn't know what he was talking about, and not only that, he realized advice on which countries we ought to invade was not exactly one of his core competencies. So he decided to shut up about regime change, if, whether and where to do it. And nothing bad happened. Nothing bad happened to Savage's reputation, I should say. In fact, after he shut up about happy fun invasion time, it got better. People respected him all the more for what he had to say about things he was a real expert on.
Which country to invade next (or not) is still a vital question. Just like the fat epidemic, if it exists and what caused it and what it means and whether we should nag fat people about it. And like the question of whom and whether to invade, the fat epidemic question can get along just fine without that one guy who poisoned the air one or two or ten too many times.
Really, Dan. You've done enough here. Rest easy, somebody will talk about fat without you, uh, "helping."
And Savage finally admitted he didn't know what he was talking about, and not only that, he realized advice on which countries we ought to invade was not exactly one of his core competencies. So he decided to shut up about regime change, if, whether and where to do it. And nothing bad happened. Nothing bad happened to Savage's reputation, I should say. In fact, after he shut up about happy fun invasion time, it got better. People respected him all the more for what he had to say about things he was a real expert on.
Which country to invade next (or not) is still a vital question. Just like the fat epidemic, if it exists and what caused it and what it means and whether we should nag fat people about it. And like the question of whom and whether to invade, the fat epidemic question can get along just fine without that one guy who poisoned the air one or two or ten too many times.
Really, Dan. You've done enough here. Rest easy, somebody will talk about fat without you, uh, "helping."
107
I'm (mostly) with you Dan, but the claim that "rolls of exposed flesh are unsightly", even in the context it was written in, does deserve some criticism.
Rolls aren't inherently unattractive. Some people are definitely into them as I'm sure you've learned by reading letters from fat-fetish folks.
Still... I think your post was pretty much right on. Hope you and Lindy(and apparently the majority of the staff) are able to reconcile. Maybe a dance off as suggested by TVdinner could help?
Rolls aren't inherently unattractive. Some people are definitely into them as I'm sure you've learned by reading letters from fat-fetish folks.
Still... I think your post was pretty much right on. Hope you and Lindy(and apparently the majority of the staff) are able to reconcile. Maybe a dance off as suggested by TVdinner could help?
110
Hey Matt from Denver,
I am really sorry that you felt I was putting words in your mouth. I've always thought surprises could be pleasing or disappointing. I didn't interpret pleasure from your comment. I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth.
I'll confess that I'm stressed. My first set of test results have come and it appears that I need another proceedure and more biopsies. I'm scared and the thought that I might not get the priviledge of watching me kids grow up maybe more than a thought.
I hope you and your's are happy, healthy and things are less "tight" then they were in December.
Take care.
I am really sorry that you felt I was putting words in your mouth. I've always thought surprises could be pleasing or disappointing. I didn't interpret pleasure from your comment. I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth.
I'll confess that I'm stressed. My first set of test results have come and it appears that I need another proceedure and more biopsies. I'm scared and the thought that I might not get the priviledge of watching me kids grow up maybe more than a thought.
I hope you and your's are happy, healthy and things are less "tight" then they were in December.
Take care.
111
Dan, I don't think you can win this argument. I really liked your two blog posts quoting past columns in which you answered fat questions with compassion. I think you should have added that you are sorry about how the quote Lindy used her post sounds out of context, that you are planning to avoid saying things like that in the future, allowed comments, and left it at that.
Lindy's post was really impressive because it was funny and pithy (and the "boss of me part" was clearly present to allow her to amusingly twist a cliche, not because the boss part was that important), but this post of yours ended up being long and defensive.
You can't argue away the fat shaming that other people see in your posts, whether that fat shaming is just in the eye of the beholder or not. Being offended, reasonably or not, can't be argued away. You don't mean to fat shame, so apologize and move on.
Lindy's post was really impressive because it was funny and pithy (and the "boss of me part" was clearly present to allow her to amusingly twist a cliche, not because the boss part was that important), but this post of yours ended up being long and defensive.
You can't argue away the fat shaming that other people see in your posts, whether that fat shaming is just in the eye of the beholder or not. Being offended, reasonably or not, can't be argued away. You don't mean to fat shame, so apologize and move on.
112
Lindy accused Dan of being a bigot and Dan defended himself by showing evidence to the contrary. Aside from that, he agreed with her that shaming fat people doesn't help them. He also acknowledged that she is brilliant and beautiful.
So ... why are people still hating on Dan?
So ... why are people still hating on Dan?
113
Dan,
I've always enjoyed your style of argumentation. You've never claimed tact or sweetness. That being said, you've often shown forbearance in sticky situations. Occasionally I've thought (particularly listening to the podcast), "Wow, he's being mean!" but far more often, "Yes! That nails it!" And I love that you don't equivocate, in a city that embraces equivocation.
Oh, and for the record? I'm also 20-ish pounds overweight & think you're absolutely right-on and -- dare I say -- tactful on the issue. People want what they want in a partner. Bully for all of us if we like who we are and how we look, but we've got to deal with the fact that our plumpness affects others. It particularly affects potential and actual partners, WHICH IS WHAT YOU WRITE ABOUT. You show compassion and pragmatism in the views your express.
So, I wish Lindy would work out her issues with her therapist and friends and stop attributing views to you which you clearly don't hold.
Happy VD, Dan. I'm glad you have the love of a good man. And please know that many of us out here in blogland feel great warmth and affection for you and would give you little construction paper hearts with doilies pasted on 'em if we could.
I've always enjoyed your style of argumentation. You've never claimed tact or sweetness. That being said, you've often shown forbearance in sticky situations. Occasionally I've thought (particularly listening to the podcast), "Wow, he's being mean!" but far more often, "Yes! That nails it!" And I love that you don't equivocate, in a city that embraces equivocation.
Oh, and for the record? I'm also 20-ish pounds overweight & think you're absolutely right-on and -- dare I say -- tactful on the issue. People want what they want in a partner. Bully for all of us if we like who we are and how we look, but we've got to deal with the fact that our plumpness affects others. It particularly affects potential and actual partners, WHICH IS WHAT YOU WRITE ABOUT. You show compassion and pragmatism in the views your express.
So, I wish Lindy would work out her issues with her therapist and friends and stop attributing views to you which you clearly don't hold.
Happy VD, Dan. I'm glad you have the love of a good man. And please know that many of us out here in blogland feel great warmth and affection for you and would give you little construction paper hearts with doilies pasted on 'em if we could.
114
I think a good dance-off might be at a venue chosen by Lindy with music chosen, well, not by Dan, of course, but by Terry (sleazy Italo disco if possible), dance-off presided over by Riz. NOT open to the public, but with the dancers able to invite guests, and video'ed by Kelly O.
We Slog commenters to cover the open bar by building up a pot on the Strangercrombie PayPal machine, any leftover to go to next year's beneficiary.
We Slog commenters to cover the open bar by building up a pot on the Strangercrombie PayPal machine, any leftover to go to next year's beneficiary.
115
Here's a picture of my arms, if you're curious. (Full disclosure: I was a bit lighter there. This is about the size I am now.)
It's really sad that still, after all these years, you listen to people saying, "Look, you have said a bunch of fucked-up, nasty shit that hurts people," and your only response is to tell those critics they're lying, distorting your words, and/or externalizing their own shame. At what point do you consider the possibility that maybe all these people aren't crazy or making excuses or attacking you because they can't stand up to their daddies or some shit?
It's really simple, Dan: Talk about the obesity epidemic--and your fascination with it--all you want, but if you want people to stop calling you a bigot, you need to quit making fun of fat people for being fat. You're a smart guy. You're not failing to get this, you're refusing to.
It's really sad that still, after all these years, you listen to people saying, "Look, you have said a bunch of fucked-up, nasty shit that hurts people," and your only response is to tell those critics they're lying, distorting your words, and/or externalizing their own shame. At what point do you consider the possibility that maybe all these people aren't crazy or making excuses or attacking you because they can't stand up to their daddies or some shit?
It's really simple, Dan: Talk about the obesity epidemic--and your fascination with it--all you want, but if you want people to stop calling you a bigot, you need to quit making fun of fat people for being fat. You're a smart guy. You're not failing to get this, you're refusing to.
116
Dan, I love your perspectives on love, sex, society, relationships, intimacy, family, show tunes, hot young-looking guys, etc. - You're really good at expressing yourself on those topics. But talking about being fat? You're really bad at it.
You were bad at it in "The Kid" and you've been bad at it in your column and here on Slog.
As a former fat kid, you should know (and behave) better.
You were bad at it in "The Kid" and you've been bad at it in your column and here on Slog.
As a former fat kid, you should know (and behave) better.
117
Oops, sorry, couldn't post live links the first time I commented, apparently. Arms 1: http://www.flickr.com/photos/77367764@N0…
Arms 2: http://kateharding.info/2009/09/25/impos…
Arms 2: http://kateharding.info/2009/09/25/impos…
119
I just finished reading both posts and I gotta say, I come down firmly on Dan's side here. I've read every column back to 2000 (I had time on my hands after I got laid off last year) and I listen to the podcast all the time and I've never come away thinking that Dan hates fat people (or any of the other groups that love to claim the same). If you pay attention to what he's actually saying, it just isn't there.
120
Allow me to amend the record: "I am thoroughly annoyed at having my tame statements of fact—being heavy is a health risk; the rolls of exposed flesh created by low-rise jeans/high-rise tops are unsightly—characterized as 'hate speech.'"
We're still having a bit of trouble with fact vs. opinion it seems.
(By the by, I still see muffin-tops every day working with teenagers; the kids seem to be pretty into them. Now if you want talk about the shit these kids put into their bodies every day - fat and thin, Monster drinks to McDs - well, that's another matter. A matter that people like Michelle Obama are taking on in a much more productive way.)
121
It's true that Lindy's anger seems to be "liberating and self motivating." Just like your anger around homophobia is "liberating and self motivating." Sometimes you have to yell when you are angry just because... You do that too, Dan (you didn't really think that licking that Iowa doorknow was going to win anyone an election, did you?). Lindy did it in this piece. Did you get caught in the crossfire or do you honestly deserve the criticism? I really don't know. The Savage haters were probably already Savage haters. You are a provacateur, you know that.
For me, Lindy's piece was never about you. You were the locus for a piece about being fat in the world - how it can be hard, how sometimes people around you aren't kind. The outpouring of comments shows how many connect on self loathing. The fascinating thing to me is how every single woman and gay man I know has been touched by this body stuff - how there seem to be a hell of a lot of people still walking around angry and hurt in a world that tells them how to be, how to look, how to love... Lindy wrote about that. She wrote about the naked underbelly of shame and hurt and we admire her for it and it makes us realize how rare it is for people to really speak openly about how hurt they are.
She's a hero, like you are. I think you are both great.
For me, Lindy's piece was never about you. You were the locus for a piece about being fat in the world - how it can be hard, how sometimes people around you aren't kind. The outpouring of comments shows how many connect on self loathing. The fascinating thing to me is how every single woman and gay man I know has been touched by this body stuff - how there seem to be a hell of a lot of people still walking around angry and hurt in a world that tells them how to be, how to look, how to love... Lindy wrote about that. She wrote about the naked underbelly of shame and hurt and we admire her for it and it makes us realize how rare it is for people to really speak openly about how hurt they are.
She's a hero, like you are. I think you are both great.
122
Good work, Dan. This was a comprehensive and well-considered rebuttal. I am so glad you didn't take this debate down into emotionalismland like so many commenters want. I also laud you for not backing down, even though this will probably invite waves of hate-mail from anecdotal evidence-waving FA activists.
That being said, I do think you will regret this line: "I could probably get her fired, I suppose." That's the epitome of passive-aggressive Seattle.
That being said, I do think you will regret this line: "I could probably get her fired, I suppose." That's the epitome of passive-aggressive Seattle.
123
I think this underscores the evolutionary advantage of asexuality. The sex-drive creates a counter-productive pressure against weight-loss -- or any regimen of self-improvement. That last observation of Lindy's post about the drop in shame leading to a loss in weight? That shame only has any meaning in regard to (not) fulfilling a sex-drive. It was the sex-drive that undid Junot Diaz's Oscar Wao. Asexuals of the world divi^H^H^H^H unite.
124
Thanks, Kim, they're a little better. My wife has a good prospect (hopefully she'll get a job offer next week), family has come through with help, and because so much was withheld from her severance, we're getting a lot of our taxes back.
It pains me to share this news in light of yours, however - I wasn't aware of your health issues (either I skipped that comment or it was on a thread I didn't read), and just lately it seems like I know a lot of people facing similar (or the same) problems. So I sincerely hope everything turns out well for you. The world needs you.
It pains me to share this news in light of yours, however - I wasn't aware of your health issues (either I skipped that comment or it was on a thread I didn't read), and just lately it seems like I know a lot of people facing similar (or the same) problems. So I sincerely hope everything turns out well for you. The world needs you.
125
@27 and @35 has got it for me.
Dan:Fat People::Fox news:Gays">News:Gays
They say that they're "just reporting the news" and "just bringing up facts" but it is obviously spun in a completely biased way.
Dan, I dunno why you refuse to own your bias. This whole post reads more like an apologetic justification than a "yeah, OK, you caught me." You own every other bias you have (religion, pitbulls, etc)...why not own up to Fat?
Dan:Fat People::Fox news:Gays">News:Gays
They say that they're "just reporting the news" and "just bringing up facts" but it is obviously spun in a completely biased way.
Dan, I dunno why you refuse to own your bias. This whole post reads more like an apologetic justification than a "yeah, OK, you caught me." You own every other bias you have (religion, pitbulls, etc)...why not own up to Fat?
127
@117 Nice photo, but if it is physical beauty that is your objective, you fail. Not everyone is physically beautiful.
Thankfully, there is inner beauty, and that is what is important. You may want to work on that.
You ask: "At what point do you consider the possibility that maybe all these people aren't crazy..."
Ez to answer: When 'all these people' stop thinking that everything Dan says is about them, or directed to people that are like them.
Fucking narcissists.
Thankfully, there is inner beauty, and that is what is important. You may want to work on that.
You ask: "At what point do you consider the possibility that maybe all these people aren't crazy..."
Ez to answer: When 'all these people' stop thinking that everything Dan says is about them, or directed to people that are like them.
Fucking narcissists.
128
You can't argue away the fat shaming that other people see in your posts, whether that fat shaming is just in the eye of the beholder or not. Being offended, reasonably or not, can't be argued away. You don't mean to fat shame, so apologize and move on.
Wait, say huh? Dan is supposed to apologize for comments that cause offense when the offense is entirely in the head of the offended? Ultimately, being offended is always a choice. You have to care about the opinion of whoever's talking shit at you to be opinion.
Wait, say huh? Dan is supposed to apologize for comments that cause offense when the offense is entirely in the head of the offended? Ultimately, being offended is always a choice. You have to care about the opinion of whoever's talking shit at you to be opinion.
131
@123
Umm. Asexuality would probably bring evolution to a halt in fairly short order, were a large enough portion of the population so disposed; sex being requisite for reproduction and all. And the desire to get laid is actually a very effective tool for motivating self-improvement.
Umm. Asexuality would probably bring evolution to a halt in fairly short order, were a large enough portion of the population so disposed; sex being requisite for reproduction and all. And the desire to get laid is actually a very effective tool for motivating self-improvement.
132
And you know what, Kate, you and I are far more at risk of joint damage when we do Crow Pose than we would be if we lost 20 or 30 pounds. You're strong. I'm strong. But there are definite disadvantages (in addition to, in your case, self-righteous defensiveness) to your -- and my -- variety of plumpness.
Your grudge-holding ill becomes you, as does your nasty response to his comment about you above, in which he explains that he crossed a line with his comment about you in the past. And if you are so appalled by him, STOP READING him. And don't talk shit about someone who's said nothing unkind about you. But I suppose that you legitimize your holier-than-thou attitude because you're, well, holier-than-thou.
So watch your wrists when you do crow and chaturanga, Kate. And go away.
Your grudge-holding ill becomes you, as does your nasty response to his comment about you above, in which he explains that he crossed a line with his comment about you in the past. And if you are so appalled by him, STOP READING him. And don't talk shit about someone who's said nothing unkind about you. But I suppose that you legitimize your holier-than-thou attitude because you're, well, holier-than-thou.
So watch your wrists when you do crow and chaturanga, Kate. And go away.
135
Oh come on people if Dan is not snarky, sarcastic, funny or brutally honest few people would seek his advice or read his writings. So please Dan don't be so apologetic and lose your style.
136
Holy Jebus, this is so obvious.
Some people will find you unattractive. Some people will be bad-mannered enough to say so. If you have effed-up teeth, you might feel bad when someone says something about ugly teeth and how oral hygiene is good for your overall health. "But my crooked teeth are genetic! It's not my fault!" Who fucking cares. If you don't like being unattractive to the general population, fix it. If you don't care, by all means STOP CARING. No one is making you care. Your feelings are up to you. Take some responsibility for them.
You have a right to live as you like. Other people have a right to dislike it and you. You don't have a right to be unconditionally accepted by society! Until someone tries to make laws against fatties, don't *even* compare yourself to gays.
Some people will find you unattractive. Some people will be bad-mannered enough to say so. If you have effed-up teeth, you might feel bad when someone says something about ugly teeth and how oral hygiene is good for your overall health. "But my crooked teeth are genetic! It's not my fault!" Who fucking cares. If you don't like being unattractive to the general population, fix it. If you don't care, by all means STOP CARING. No one is making you care. Your feelings are up to you. Take some responsibility for them.
You have a right to live as you like. Other people have a right to dislike it and you. You don't have a right to be unconditionally accepted by society! Until someone tries to make laws against fatties, don't *even* compare yourself to gays.
137
Kim, a lot of atheists are wishing they could pray for your ass right now. Well, at least this atheist is. Let us know, 'cause we'll be worried.
138
That was a great response. Period. There is a certain percentage of commenters for whom any response other than full, naked flagellation will be insufficient, but I think you did a great job of explaining your side. Some information is just hard to hear, and it's easier to shoot the messenger. Please buy a teflon shirt.
139
Dan, I am on your side with this. I like the way Lindy looks, but I feel that she is responsible for her own feelings.
THAT SAID...
Seriously, why is any of this stuff on Slog at all? Can't you and Lindy just take a long walk somewhere and hash it out? It ain't exactly news, is it?
THAT SAID...
Seriously, why is any of this stuff on Slog at all? Can't you and Lindy just take a long walk somewhere and hash it out? It ain't exactly news, is it?
140
Kim @110, all my best wishes to you. I will keep you in my thoughts.
Hugs to you and your family.
Hugs to you and your family.
141
Man, Dan got thrown over the flames. I can't really give substantial evidence, but I've always felt, through subtext, that you had a certain disdain for fat people. You've cleared your name concerning her quotation, but still...
I'd say Dan is 40% right, Lindy is 60% right.
I'd say Dan is 40% right, Lindy is 60% right.
142
So glad you responded to this, Dan. Gotta say the only thing I got from Lindy's post was 'does she read what you write?' That and 'she thinks she's fat? she looks fine'. Anyway, I think this is the best part of your response:
I say that as someone who up until 5 years ago lived a life based almost entirely on feelings of shame and repulsion. I didn't lose the weight, fix the disability or change much of anything physically - if anything I'm going downhill in the appearance department. I just changed the way I look at things. It's made a remarkable change in the way people see me. I decided that this is me like it or lump it. I'm never going to look like Angelina Jolie and that doesn't matter. People no longer have the power to make me feel worthless. And they only had that power in the first place because I gave it to them.
Dan, your words are often brutal but I find what you say empowering. You're a weird mix of kindness and cruelty. I think you're the wake up call a lot of people need. I don't see where coddling addicts or depressed people or anyone with issues is helping. "There, there, poor you" doesn't work. All it does is reinforce bad behaviour. Shaming doesn't work either. But you saying 'this is the situation, here's what can be done about it' does.
I am not, however, responsible for your shame (RIP). You arrived at my posts with your shame, my posts didn't create it, and you managed to conquer your shame despite my posts. Good for you. (No snark intended in that "good for you." Seriously, Lindy, good for you.) If you don't want to read my posts about this subject—about any subject—just skip 'em.I thought it was really lame of Lindy to blame you for her issues.
I say that as someone who up until 5 years ago lived a life based almost entirely on feelings of shame and repulsion. I didn't lose the weight, fix the disability or change much of anything physically - if anything I'm going downhill in the appearance department. I just changed the way I look at things. It's made a remarkable change in the way people see me. I decided that this is me like it or lump it. I'm never going to look like Angelina Jolie and that doesn't matter. People no longer have the power to make me feel worthless. And they only had that power in the first place because I gave it to them.
Dan, your words are often brutal but I find what you say empowering. You're a weird mix of kindness and cruelty. I think you're the wake up call a lot of people need. I don't see where coddling addicts or depressed people or anyone with issues is helping. "There, there, poor you" doesn't work. All it does is reinforce bad behaviour. Shaming doesn't work either. But you saying 'this is the situation, here's what can be done about it' does.
145
@ 122 - + Dan: I agree, the line about you could get Lindy fired, you suppose, doesn't prove you're not her boss.
I am one of the biggest contributors to Lindy's thread, & I think her essential point - shaming is not helpful to fat people - is a good one. There's times your tone, Dan, has outweighed whatever good you were trying to say.
Now to folks who say that Dan is just a fat-hater, as I've pointed out in other threads, I challenge you to give a balanced reading of his past writing on the subject. Yes, I think he has gone too far w/ the snark sometimes. Fat folks get picked on all the time so they get oversensitive to it. But I read every single post I could get my hands on by Dan about obesity, advice he has given to fat fetishists , & there was even a post about how fat people sometimes have a tough time getting quality medical care.
I dunno.
Dan, I do think because you are exasperated & tired of hearing about this issue, you have a blind spot to your tone when you talk about it. But Dan-bashers, who are accusing him basically of being a bigot, I dunno how you could have gotten that out of the same writing I have read.
I hope Dan & Lindy are good. I was pretty surprised by how many Slog staff members chimed in on her post.
@ 110, Kim in Portland - I don't pray, but my thoughts are with you! Hope you are as well as you can be.
I am one of the biggest contributors to Lindy's thread, & I think her essential point - shaming is not helpful to fat people - is a good one. There's times your tone, Dan, has outweighed whatever good you were trying to say.
Now to folks who say that Dan is just a fat-hater, as I've pointed out in other threads, I challenge you to give a balanced reading of his past writing on the subject. Yes, I think he has gone too far w/ the snark sometimes. Fat folks get picked on all the time so they get oversensitive to it. But I read every single post I could get my hands on by Dan about obesity, advice he has given to fat fetishists , & there was even a post about how fat people sometimes have a tough time getting quality medical care.
I dunno.
Dan, I do think because you are exasperated & tired of hearing about this issue, you have a blind spot to your tone when you talk about it. But Dan-bashers, who are accusing him basically of being a bigot, I dunno how you could have gotten that out of the same writing I have read.
I hope Dan & Lindy are good. I was pretty surprised by how many Slog staff members chimed in on her post.
@ 110, Kim in Portland - I don't pray, but my thoughts are with you! Hope you are as well as you can be.
146
Right on Dan. You call everyone else out, why should unhealthy people get a free pass? You're a bit of a dick and everyone knows it; anyone who expects differently on the subject of body weight is deluding themselves.
The entire FA movement reminds me of newly-out queers. They're so excited that they can be themselves that the littlest perceived slight against them throws their entire worldview out of whack. We all did it to some degree and I think it's common in the FA circles too.
The entire FA movement reminds me of newly-out queers. They're so excited that they can be themselves that the littlest perceived slight against them throws their entire worldview out of whack. We all did it to some degree and I think it's common in the FA circles too.
148
Here's the thing about reinforcement: if you tell someone they aren't doing enough, they'll eventually believe that there isn't enough for them to do. That's the problem with fat shaming, it's another way to say "you aren't skinny yet, so why are you 'proud' of yourself shitbag". It's the same with any shaming on things we can change, and it's hardly different from shame for things we can't.
When you outline not-so-novel ways of weight loss, or gory photos of someone's heart exploding (okay, not really), you're doing just as much damage as the above. You're saying "the goal is to have this not happen".
No, the goal of any self-improvement, of any life, is to love yourself, and that's where Dan as an advice columnist has to tread lightly -- he's basically a helping hand. If he starts slapping fat butts and joking about banning fat marriage, his station as an advice columnist -- a job he chose, by the way -- amplifies that into a place it shouldn't be.
Lindy is a comedy writer, first and foremost, and if she takes something too seriously, her bad.
Dan is an advice columnist, first and foremost, and if he is read as being insensitive, his bad.
How are you going to fix it? "Okay, I'm a dick". Because you both are. Lindy for lack of subtlety and sharing her rage, Dan for digging downward from the bottom of his hole.
So say it: you're dicks.
When you outline not-so-novel ways of weight loss, or gory photos of someone's heart exploding (okay, not really), you're doing just as much damage as the above. You're saying "the goal is to have this not happen".
No, the goal of any self-improvement, of any life, is to love yourself, and that's where Dan as an advice columnist has to tread lightly -- he's basically a helping hand. If he starts slapping fat butts and joking about banning fat marriage, his station as an advice columnist -- a job he chose, by the way -- amplifies that into a place it shouldn't be.
Lindy is a comedy writer, first and foremost, and if she takes something too seriously, her bad.
Dan is an advice columnist, first and foremost, and if he is read as being insensitive, his bad.
How are you going to fix it? "Okay, I'm a dick". Because you both are. Lindy for lack of subtlety and sharing her rage, Dan for digging downward from the bottom of his hole.
So say it: you're dicks.
149
@ 116, Dan's bad at talking about it, I think, because he once WAS fat, & struggles with never becoming so again.
151
I think the most common bigoted act in American Culture today (and Seattle LOVES doing it), is slapping the "bigot" label on anyone and everyone you'd like to silence or shame. Ironic.
152
Clearly the only REAL way to settle this is with a special Stranger contest for charity that will shame EVERYONE. Dan and Lindy both pick a charity. We add their weights together for an average. Take donations based on pounds like those "walkathons". Get a sports doctor and a nutritionist to volunteer to supervise for charity. Whoever ends up closer to the average after say 6 months -- Dan gaining weight, Lindy losing it -- wins. A vague lesson is learned by all.
153
No, Dan, you said Tim's song was "almost bullying," and while you may not have created this particular woman's body shame, by spreading shit like that around and defending it and your bullshit double standard in sex advice regarding heavy people (because a handful of columns where you got it right may balance the ones where you got it wrong, but they don't undo them) you are contributing to the creation of the body shame of a whole new generation.
But hey, your personal fascination with the obesity epidemic totally excuses any harm you're doing, am I right? And as long as you keep on ignoring and shouting down people who belong to a community when they tell you you've fucked up with regard to their community, you never have to take any responsibility or actually learn anything.
But hey, your personal fascination with the obesity epidemic totally excuses any harm you're doing, am I right? And as long as you keep on ignoring and shouting down people who belong to a community when they tell you you've fucked up with regard to their community, you never have to take any responsibility or actually learn anything.
154
Some people say "Fat is the new smoking."
And it is.
It is unhealthy and widespread and responsible for tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths each year, it runs in families, it is more common among the poor and the lower classes, it is incredibly hard to change, and some people never can. And every one of those previous statements applied to smoking as of 1960. (Eg. in 1960, some 65% of the adult population smoked).
And why has the percentage of people who smoke gone down drastically? Health fears and social shunning. (Remember, "Why would I kiss a smoker, it's like licking a dirty ashtray!" )
I have no problem not shaming fat people, it's rude and nasty. I, as a non-smoker do not harangue smokers. I have no problem with not discriminating against fat people, as discrimination is bad.
But . . .
People attracted to whom they are attracted to. And there simply aren't that many people attracted to obesity. That's not an opinion about current society, that's a fact. And unlike opinions, which can be ignored, facts cannot be.
And to all you ignorant shitheads calling Dan a bigot, a racist, filled with hate, and the equivalent of a fundy-nut who thinks queers should be executed, kindly Fuck Off, with Walnuts, Twice on Sundays.
And it is.
It is unhealthy and widespread and responsible for tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths each year, it runs in families, it is more common among the poor and the lower classes, it is incredibly hard to change, and some people never can. And every one of those previous statements applied to smoking as of 1960. (Eg. in 1960, some 65% of the adult population smoked).
And why has the percentage of people who smoke gone down drastically? Health fears and social shunning. (Remember, "Why would I kiss a smoker, it's like licking a dirty ashtray!" )
I have no problem not shaming fat people, it's rude and nasty. I, as a non-smoker do not harangue smokers. I have no problem with not discriminating against fat people, as discrimination is bad.
But . . .
People attracted to whom they are attracted to. And there simply aren't that many people attracted to obesity. That's not an opinion about current society, that's a fact. And unlike opinions, which can be ignored, facts cannot be.
And to all you ignorant shitheads calling Dan a bigot, a racist, filled with hate, and the equivalent of a fundy-nut who thinks queers should be executed, kindly Fuck Off, with Walnuts, Twice on Sundays.
156
What is lost on me is why everyone loves Lindy so much. She's unpleasant and hysterical, and clearly has entitlement issues.
I also love how everyone these days is quick to compare their plight to the gays, as if the fight for gay rights was already over.
I also love how everyone these days is quick to compare their plight to the gays, as if the fight for gay rights was already over.
157
Agh. It's like Mom and Dad are fighting. And yes, everybody should love their body. For sure. But let's not kid ourselves. There are ways to treat ourselves and our bodies well, and we don't always do them. And we should feel guilty when we smoke, or drink too much, or eat too much, or don't exercise, or eat fucking meat, or fuck a stranger without protection. Because that shit's fucking stupid. And we know better. And getting defensive about it doesn't help anyone.
We need to love each other (a little love on Valentine's day, anyone?) regardless of their body composition and regardless of their choices because they're fucking people, and hey, so are we. But we also need to get real about things as a country. And those things include America's food system, obesity, sexual health (abstinence only "education" didn't help Bristol Palin not get pregnant), the decimation of the middle class. And not being willing to talk about them, even if it's painful, isn't going to help solve them.
Dan, Lindy, hug each other's icky selves and let's get moving. There's too much important shit to do.
We need to love each other (a little love on Valentine's day, anyone?) regardless of their body composition and regardless of their choices because they're fucking people, and hey, so are we. But we also need to get real about things as a country. And those things include America's food system, obesity, sexual health (abstinence only "education" didn't help Bristol Palin not get pregnant), the decimation of the middle class. And not being willing to talk about them, even if it's painful, isn't going to help solve them.
Dan, Lindy, hug each other's icky selves and let's get moving. There's too much important shit to do.
158
@148 Baconcat: What if we weren't talking about fat, what if we were talking about smoking? Would it be unfair to let people know that they have an increased chance of getting lung cancer or heart disease if they smoke? Or would that damage their self-esteem and capacity to love themselves? Why are people not supposed to have a conversation about this? Because it's difficult to hear? Because Cinnabons taste so damn good, it's just unfair?
I wouldn't let someone smoke in our house around my kids. I wouldn't let my kids drink pop when they were little. I never let them ride in anyone's car if they weren't wearing seatbelts. Because I'm a jerk? (well, possibly...) But I'm pretty sure it was because I care about them, I'm concerned for their welfare. If they, as adults, choose to eat crap and smoke, well, I'll be disappointed, but that will be their choice to make. But you can be sure that in my home, on my watch, they will get all the information they need to make healthy choices, whether it's eating their broccoli or using condoms. I don't see that what Dan does, albeit on a much larger scale, is any different.
I wouldn't let someone smoke in our house around my kids. I wouldn't let my kids drink pop when they were little. I never let them ride in anyone's car if they weren't wearing seatbelts. Because I'm a jerk? (well, possibly...) But I'm pretty sure it was because I care about them, I'm concerned for their welfare. If they, as adults, choose to eat crap and smoke, well, I'll be disappointed, but that will be their choice to make. But you can be sure that in my home, on my watch, they will get all the information they need to make healthy choices, whether it's eating their broccoli or using condoms. I don't see that what Dan does, albeit on a much larger scale, is any different.
159
I kinda feel indifferent to this argument. I do think Dan has something subconscious going on with the fats and it probably has some roots in his childhood. I've read and listened to everything of Dan's since I was in elementary school and there is a definite thing going on with the fats.
But I saw Lindy's post as a response to Dan's previous posts asking for proof of his fat hatred, she supplied and the sheer number of comments should tell dan that there is something wrong with his snark.
MEH!! Mom and Dad are fighting!!!!
But I saw Lindy's post as a response to Dan's previous posts asking for proof of his fat hatred, she supplied and the sheer number of comments should tell dan that there is something wrong with his snark.
MEH!! Mom and Dad are fighting!!!!
160
Dan - your incredulity about how a fair-minded person could conceivably take offense to your comments on the issue over the years is EXACTLY what people take offense to. Every time you trot out some variation of "I have no problem with fat people but let's be honest about the facts, if they eat a little better and get more active, they can be healthier," you're reinforcing the extent to which you truly don't understand.
Poverty is an appropriate analogy. Fair-minded, compassionate people understand that the issue is complex - some shitty mix of bad luck, lack of educational opportunity, family, historical injustice, self-reinforcing class structures and a million other factors. We take offense when some privileged right-wing blowhard gets on TV and says if people just worked a little harder they wouldn't have to be poor, so let's lower taxes, cut welfare, and stop supporting their lazy lifestyle choices. And hey, look at this rags-to-riches story - it really happens! And hey, my family had nothing growing up, but I worked hard, put myself through school, and look at me now!
We reject those arguments because we recognize how simplistic they are, and we reject the policies behind the arguments because we recognize that implementing them will only make the cycle that much tougher to break, digging the hole even deeper.
For all the reasons Lindy wrote about, there are parallels in the struggles people have with their weight. We live in a culture that casually reinforces the cycle of shame that tens of millions of people in this country are forced to confront every time they leave their house. But the problem is vastly more complex than "I think I'll sit on my couch all day and eat fast food".
No fat person wants to be fat, and every fat person has tried to be less fat. But for a million different reasons, it's not necessarily that easy. People have deep-seated issues with food, different genetics, and if it wasn't blatantly obvious, exercise gets harder the more you weigh. So maybe fair-minded, compassionate people can understand that hearing "if you eat better and work out, you don't have to be fat" over and over again gets a little obnoxious. Because of course you already know that, and that's easy for them to say. And then maybe the shame starts to kick in, and you think "everyone says it's easy, but it's not for me, and no matter what I do, I'll always be fat" - and around that point you remember how much better you feel when you eat.
I don't believe that there's hate behind your words, and I've never taken personal offense to the substance of what you write, because I know none is intended. But the fact that you're apparently incapable of recognizing how it might be hurtful - that your reaction when called out on that is to get hyper-defensive and say the same things again - shows how completely you're missing the point, and is offensive in its narrow mindedness. Your facts don't have to be wrong for you to be wrong overall.
I'm sure the guy telling a homeless person to get a job actually thinks he's giving helpful advice too.
More...
Poverty is an appropriate analogy. Fair-minded, compassionate people understand that the issue is complex - some shitty mix of bad luck, lack of educational opportunity, family, historical injustice, self-reinforcing class structures and a million other factors. We take offense when some privileged right-wing blowhard gets on TV and says if people just worked a little harder they wouldn't have to be poor, so let's lower taxes, cut welfare, and stop supporting their lazy lifestyle choices. And hey, look at this rags-to-riches story - it really happens! And hey, my family had nothing growing up, but I worked hard, put myself through school, and look at me now!
We reject those arguments because we recognize how simplistic they are, and we reject the policies behind the arguments because we recognize that implementing them will only make the cycle that much tougher to break, digging the hole even deeper.
For all the reasons Lindy wrote about, there are parallels in the struggles people have with their weight. We live in a culture that casually reinforces the cycle of shame that tens of millions of people in this country are forced to confront every time they leave their house. But the problem is vastly more complex than "I think I'll sit on my couch all day and eat fast food".
No fat person wants to be fat, and every fat person has tried to be less fat. But for a million different reasons, it's not necessarily that easy. People have deep-seated issues with food, different genetics, and if it wasn't blatantly obvious, exercise gets harder the more you weigh. So maybe fair-minded, compassionate people can understand that hearing "if you eat better and work out, you don't have to be fat" over and over again gets a little obnoxious. Because of course you already know that, and that's easy for them to say. And then maybe the shame starts to kick in, and you think "everyone says it's easy, but it's not for me, and no matter what I do, I'll always be fat" - and around that point you remember how much better you feel when you eat.
I don't believe that there's hate behind your words, and I've never taken personal offense to the substance of what you write, because I know none is intended. But the fact that you're apparently incapable of recognizing how it might be hurtful - that your reaction when called out on that is to get hyper-defensive and say the same things again - shows how completely you're missing the point, and is offensive in its narrow mindedness. Your facts don't have to be wrong for you to be wrong overall.
I'm sure the guy telling a homeless person to get a job actually thinks he's giving helpful advice too.
161
The guy gets personally attacked on a semi-regular basis by this chick and you guys take the attacker's side? Why? Because he's a confident, outspoken, gay man and she's a delicate little lady-flower? Most of the comments here made me want to puke.
"Yawn. Your feelings being hurt bores me Dan Savage. Dance for me monkey, dance."
No big deal, he just listens to your shit stories and turns them into entertainment gold every week. Lets crap all over him harder if he doesn't do it in a way we like.
"Yawn. Your feelings being hurt bores me Dan Savage. Dance for me monkey, dance."
No big deal, he just listens to your shit stories and turns them into entertainment gold every week. Lets crap all over him harder if he doesn't do it in a way we like.
165
@148 Baconcat
What if you were talking about being gay? Showing pictures of ruptured anuses and AIDs patients. Fat and Gay shaming are very similar and destructive things. But I've never known a single person who was shamed into being skinny, it's always with helpful hands and ideas that support that persons emotional construction.
What if you were talking about being gay? Showing pictures of ruptured anuses and AIDs patients. Fat and Gay shaming are very similar and destructive things. But I've never known a single person who was shamed into being skinny, it's always with helpful hands and ideas that support that persons emotional construction.
166
I'm not even going to wade through all this -- I've spent the last couple hours setting up a new website and project, my down comforter is still in the queue for the dryer so I can't get to bed yet (said project kept me away from home & laundry queue till now) which makes me cranky and impatient. *However*.
The one thing I have to say is this. I read the objections (from Lindy/Kate) over the fat marriage thing earlier today in twitter etc, and you know what? My very first thought was, well, they would have figured Swift *really* meant to *eat* *babies* in his A Modest Proposal. Which, of course would have missed his point entirely. As they did the point being made in the gay/fat marriage post.
158 posts, huh? Oh boy *facepalm*
The one thing I have to say is this. I read the objections (from Lindy/Kate) over the fat marriage thing earlier today in twitter etc, and you know what? My very first thought was, well, they would have figured Swift *really* meant to *eat* *babies* in his A Modest Proposal. Which, of course would have missed his point entirely. As they did the point being made in the gay/fat marriage post.
158 posts, huh? Oh boy *facepalm*
168
Is it just me, or does anyone else feel like they're on a long car trip with two really good friends who just kinda got into it?
I LOVED Lindy West's post just because I like seeing people I respect continuously prove their respect in respectable ways AND I liked Dan's reply. Even if it was a little dismissive, it was smart and appropriately humorous (it seems we all lean a little Lindy Westish when it comes to cultural criticism.)
The thing I can't get over is how close I feel to these two complete strangers. (Strangers! HA!) It's like the internet is ACTUALLY HAPPENING. Or something.
The moral of my comment to the comment to the comment is I wish Dan and Lindy would come hang out with me, even though it'll never happen. It kind of feels like when I realized I wasn't going to grow up and marry Clarissa from that kids show. Sad.
I LOVED Lindy West's post just because I like seeing people I respect continuously prove their respect in respectable ways AND I liked Dan's reply. Even if it was a little dismissive, it was smart and appropriately humorous (it seems we all lean a little Lindy Westish when it comes to cultural criticism.)
The thing I can't get over is how close I feel to these two complete strangers. (Strangers! HA!) It's like the internet is ACTUALLY HAPPENING. Or something.
The moral of my comment to the comment to the comment is I wish Dan and Lindy would come hang out with me, even though it'll never happen. It kind of feels like when I realized I wasn't going to grow up and marry Clarissa from that kids show. Sad.
172
@168 FTW That's exactly how this feels! Like two people I love, having a disagreement, it's not pretty, it gets ugly, and then they make up! It reminds me of a college spring break trip one year. LOVED each other. Then had huge fight at Six Flags. Then LOVED each other again soon afterward.
173
@ 150 - Memorex - are you a Dan I know? Feel free to drop me a hello via FB if so. Hiya back..! My world gets smaller all the time 'cause I post w/ my name.
Somewhere past all the yelling at each other over the past couple of days is a really good discussion about obesity. Of course, the other 70% is just crap. Which is how I feel about food in this country. Mostly too processed, too salted, bad stuff too heavily marketed & good stuff too pricey. But if you dig hard & long enough, maybe you can afford to eat well.
Somewhere past all the yelling at each other over the past couple of days is a really good discussion about obesity. Of course, the other 70% is just crap. Which is how I feel about food in this country. Mostly too processed, too salted, bad stuff too heavily marketed & good stuff too pricey. But if you dig hard & long enough, maybe you can afford to eat well.
174
Kim, been there, done that, it's some scary nasty shit. I think about you often, and look for your comments. You are always the voice of reason, and I think pretty much everybody on Slog would agree. If this whole kerfuffle ends up being resolved by a dance off (something I devoutly hope will be the case) you should be the judge.
175
I rarely say anything on here anymore since I've been working, and HULU'ing GLEE while I still can, so let me be blunt.
There are times I've never agreed with Mr. Savage and others times I've laughed my ass off.
I have tried to be friendly towards Ms. West; it didn't work. For obvious reasons.
So, what I can say is this: despite what everyone on here thinks, regardless of what's been posted by either party, it's their war.
Lindy wrote something that may have garnered a lot of commentary from followers but it's inflammatory; Dan has every right to volley back in response about the mistreatment in his regard. Overall I believe what he's posted has helped to balance out whatever new power struggle is playing out at the Stranger these days.
Who knows, maybe this will help people uncover the crap that's been going on there and bring some modicum of reality to the Stranger.
Here's to whoever is left standing in the rubble!
There are times I've never agreed with Mr. Savage and others times I've laughed my ass off.
I have tried to be friendly towards Ms. West; it didn't work. For obvious reasons.
So, what I can say is this: despite what everyone on here thinks, regardless of what's been posted by either party, it's their war.
Lindy wrote something that may have garnered a lot of commentary from followers but it's inflammatory; Dan has every right to volley back in response about the mistreatment in his regard. Overall I believe what he's posted has helped to balance out whatever new power struggle is playing out at the Stranger these days.
Who knows, maybe this will help people uncover the crap that's been going on there and bring some modicum of reality to the Stranger.
Here's to whoever is left standing in the rubble!
176
@Piminowcheez @128
Yes, Dan should apologize for comments that cause offense no matter where the offense is. I like apologies. I think they show that you value the person you are apologizing to. I don't think there is a right or wrong here: there is just perception and intention, and perception is just as important as intention. Arguments are fun and interesting, but they don't make an aggrieved party feel better, while apologies do.
Michael Wells @121 said it better than I did, even though eir post was not about what Dan should or shouldn't have done in this post.
Yes, Dan should apologize for comments that cause offense no matter where the offense is. I like apologies. I think they show that you value the person you are apologizing to. I don't think there is a right or wrong here: there is just perception and intention, and perception is just as important as intention. Arguments are fun and interesting, but they don't make an aggrieved party feel better, while apologies do.
Michael Wells @121 said it better than I did, even though eir post was not about what Dan should or shouldn't have done in this post.
178
Dan Savage, We all love you, so stop being so defensive. Lindy has a point and You just happened to be her noteworthy example. If I were you, I would just take your comments used in her piece as a recognizable departure point, and nothing else. I see that this situational usage caused you some pause per your looooong rebuttal. Check this out: My dad was a white Vietnam vet era guy. He used, what I would call, coarse language and bigotry in a kind of off-hand, macho way, although he deeply loved all of his friends of color. Hate speech? Maybe. Distasteful? Totally. A way I would like to speak myself? Hell no. But people throw words around all of the time without thinking about how they impact the generalized groups of people they refer to. Middle school kids say Justin Bieber music is "gay" all the time. Distasteful? Yeah. People write essays about it. Do the middle school kids who use cocky, sloppy speech to describe how they see the world deserve any less love? No. Same goes for you, Dan. You're smart. You're not ignorant. But you have a world view that includes opinions about people with extra weight. Sometimes your worldview seems cocky and distasteful to those of us who are "thick". Your obesity phenomenon/health concerns may be of sincere interest to you but ring false to all of us living in the framework of the government's "obesity" charts. I weigh 187 pounds, am 5'4, and can run 3 miles daily. I do. I hike, bike, do yoga, etc regularly. I may be obese by government standards, but I am crazy active and there is something that feels shitty about being lumped into all of the stereotypes that are thrown around in the conversation about obese people in this country. Lindy brought it up.I'm sorry it got personal for you, but aside from your feelings, it *really* needed to be said for the rest of us who live with being treated like crap for being the size we are. Maybe, after the hurt wears off, you can think of your small role in sparking this conversation as taking one for the team? Love you, Dan.
More...
180
Memo
FROM: Stranger Advertising Department
TO: Tim Keck
RE: Enhanced Revenue Possibilities
DATE: Feb. 14, 2011
Tim:
Not sure if you have checked Slog recently, but we would like to call your attention to something.
On Friday afternoon at 3:53 PM Stranger staff writer Lindy West made a post on Slog directed at Dan Savage. As of 9:53 PM Monday that post has generated 1256 responses. We repeat: 1256 comments. Over a weekend. Not only is this the most commented on post since Slog began, but, again, it occurred over a weekend when Slog is typically slow to borderline dead. Seriously, 50 to 1000 comments a weekend is a good week.
At 6:18 PM this evening Dan posted a response to Lindy. As of 10:18 PM his post has generated 176 comments. On a Monday evening. And not just any Monday, but Valentine's Day.
Clearly what motivates the commentariat is a really good catfight.
We would suggest that you instruct Stranger staffers to think of fights that they could have and have one of them begin the fight late on Fridays.
The revenue potentials here are huge.
respectfully,
Ads R Us
FROM: Stranger Advertising Department
TO: Tim Keck
RE: Enhanced Revenue Possibilities
DATE: Feb. 14, 2011
Tim:
Not sure if you have checked Slog recently, but we would like to call your attention to something.
On Friday afternoon at 3:53 PM Stranger staff writer Lindy West made a post on Slog directed at Dan Savage. As of 9:53 PM Monday that post has generated 1256 responses. We repeat: 1256 comments. Over a weekend. Not only is this the most commented on post since Slog began, but, again, it occurred over a weekend when Slog is typically slow to borderline dead. Seriously, 50 to 1000 comments a weekend is a good week.
At 6:18 PM this evening Dan posted a response to Lindy. As of 10:18 PM his post has generated 176 comments. On a Monday evening. And not just any Monday, but Valentine's Day.
Clearly what motivates the commentariat is a really good catfight.
We would suggest that you instruct Stranger staffers to think of fights that they could have and have one of them begin the fight late on Fridays.
The revenue potentials here are huge.
respectfully,
Ads R Us
183
The man...is...A SEX COLUMNIST. A sex columnist BELOVED for his acidic tone and not beating around the bush. If you get butthurt by wry comments GO READ JUDITH BUTLER and use the pronoun ze and leave the rest of us in peace. You are all ridiculous. Calm the fuck down and worry about real problems.
185
I think he's just trying to capitalize on the thousand+ (!!!) comments on Lindy's page. (kidding, of course)
Anyway, I've said before that Dan comes off as very fat-phobic and white and male and privileged in all respects other than his sexual orientation. But that doesn't mean this fat bitch won't continue reading his column.
Anyway, I've said before that Dan comes off as very fat-phobic and white and male and privileged in all respects other than his sexual orientation. But that doesn't mean this fat bitch won't continue reading his column.
188
Love you, Dan. What a great conversation. Huge Stranger moment!
And kudos for hiring Lindy, she's a voice!
And kudos for hiring Lindy, she's a voice!
189
Dan, grownups just apologize. I don't feel like I see the world similarly to you any longer. Your response was sad, and your brother's anecdote proves nothing except that everyone loves to generalize from their personal experience and discount others'.
I hope you were nicer to Lindy in person than this would indicate. She's the one who has actually thought about this issue.
I hope you were nicer to Lindy in person than this would indicate. She's the one who has actually thought about this issue.
190
@43 (TVDinner) holy crap, I just almost peed myself, that was funny.
Totally what 168 said. Dan and Lindy, I love you both and I just want you to DANCE IT OFF and then HUG IT OUT.
Totally what 168 said. Dan and Lindy, I love you both and I just want you to DANCE IT OFF and then HUG IT OUT.
191
A quick question-
Did LW ever try talking to DS privately about this before embarrassing him publicly?
Did LW ever try talking to DS privately about this before embarrassing him publicly?
192
I'm going to voice my support for you Dan. You said everything you needed and frankly you did it with as much cool as anyone in your position could.
Above all PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not change. Sure there are aspects to your methods that irk people (at times myself included) but I honestly cannot think of a single thing that you should change that wouldn't ruin what makes your work so great.
So please stay strong, know that not EVERYONE is harping from the rooftops about the wonders of Lindy's emotional, powerful, well-written-but-sadly-mis-directed-projection.
I love Lindy- but that was some pretty juvenile shit she just pulled for very little reason. I just wish she had let it simmer for the weekend before responding. Perhaps she would have been thinking a bit clearer.
ALSO: for those of you ragging on Dan's typos- he said right in this very article he's writing this from an airplane. He has no access to editors so give it a fucking rest already. God DAMN, people.
Above all PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not change. Sure there are aspects to your methods that irk people (at times myself included) but I honestly cannot think of a single thing that you should change that wouldn't ruin what makes your work so great.
So please stay strong, know that not EVERYONE is harping from the rooftops about the wonders of Lindy's emotional, powerful, well-written-but-sadly-mis-directed-projection.
I love Lindy- but that was some pretty juvenile shit she just pulled for very little reason. I just wish she had let it simmer for the weekend before responding. Perhaps she would have been thinking a bit clearer.
ALSO: for those of you ragging on Dan's typos- he said right in this very article he's writing this from an airplane. He has no access to editors so give it a fucking rest already. God DAMN, people.
193
I don't mind Lindy speaking up the way she did, but I think when comments got out hand as they did, I think she might have stepped in to stop the slide. Dominic said it earlier in this thread--Dan is polite and gracious to everyone in the office. The comments got out of hand. People yelling bigot and misogyny is different than a snarky debate. There are so many testimonies of people saying how much he has helped them in so many ways--he advocates for women all of the time. He doesn't deserve this. Slapping each other around a litte--that's the tone on slog. But went too far, and I'm glad DOminic had the integrity to step up and say something. Anything from the rest of the staff now?
194
This isn't about not liking Dan. It's about him not taking accountability for some shit he said that was, yes, bigoted (I don't get how no one understands its bigoted to say its NOT bigoted to rag on fat people) and to just say sorry, lesson learned. We don't get to just say shit that is NOT OK and then say (no less write WAY TO MANY WORDS), hey, well I think I should be able to say what I want and here's why. There is a reason people get called out when they say bigoted shit. Because it's not ok. You can either get all defensive white male privilege about it or learn from it. Jesus. It doesn't have to be so fucking dramatic guys.
195
Mr. Savage: You missed the point. Context or not, you've made hurtful remarks. You've done it consistently and never apologized for it.
You trade in words. You can choose them better.
You trade in words. You can choose them better.
196
I hate it when mommy and daddy argue. Please stop screaming so Mr.Teddy and I can get back to sleep...
197
176 comments and nothing from Fnarf?
Nor a rebuttal to the rebuttal from Ms. West herself?
Lamest Thread Ever!
Nor a rebuttal to the rebuttal from Ms. West herself?
Lamest Thread Ever!
198
I think this is awesome. No other American blog that I know of is hosting this kind of conversation about this issue, and it's such an important issue to discuss.
Michael Wells @121 here really cut to the chase: A few loud commenters are trying to turn this into a death match between two personalities, but it's really a discussion between smart people who have strong feelings. And hooray for that.
Michael Wells @121 here really cut to the chase: A few loud commenters are trying to turn this into a death match between two personalities, but it's really a discussion between smart people who have strong feelings. And hooray for that.
199
Dan, it's not what you said it's how you said it. With disgust. And self righteousness. And for all of that I could hold my tongue but then instead of taking Lindy's point lightly and with humor you get defensive and go after her like a pitbull on course for a baby. I don't get it. Obviously how you said all of this hit a nerve with a lot of people, your coworkers included -- why can't you take that with grace and let it go?
I don't think a lot of people get the point, you especially: that shit you said about your visit at the FA conference was unacceptable, for one and your little digs (no acronym so you called that girl LARDASS? really?) are not funny, they're hurtful. That you got it right sometimes and wrong others, I think you'd agree, if some reverend did that to another disenfranchised group you'd be livid. Why are you so eager to unpack a vicious defense of yourself when if the tables were reversed you would be just as quick to call people on this same behavior otherwise.
I don't think a lot of people get the point, you especially: that shit you said about your visit at the FA conference was unacceptable, for one and your little digs (no acronym so you called that girl LARDASS? really?) are not funny, they're hurtful. That you got it right sometimes and wrong others, I think you'd agree, if some reverend did that to another disenfranchised group you'd be livid. Why are you so eager to unpack a vicious defense of yourself when if the tables were reversed you would be just as quick to call people on this same behavior otherwise.
200
i'm with Dan on this. but here's a question i don't see addressed: ARE we repulsed by watching fat people have sex? what makes it so unappealing? because we're conditioned to only like watching "fit people" fuck? or because that's what our primitive brain truly seeks? a "fit" partner.
fat people fuck. yay! or they don't. boo-hoo! it's the same for everyone else. like to watch? then watch. repulsed? don't.
but for the love of god, let the man promote what he thinks is a healthy agenda. let anyone do that. they'll all differ, but isn't that more refreshing than "let's drink and eat and then talk about what we just drank and ate"?
fat people fuck. yay! or they don't. boo-hoo! it's the same for everyone else. like to watch? then watch. repulsed? don't.
but for the love of god, let the man promote what he thinks is a healthy agenda. let anyone do that. they'll all differ, but isn't that more refreshing than "let's drink and eat and then talk about what we just drank and ate"?
201
Dan, you are what is called an 'ethical bigot.' So is 99.99999% of the world, with the possible exception of the Dalai Lama and his previous incarnations.
Everyone has at least one blind spot, one human failing that, however serious it may or may not be on its own merits, we are incapable of processing proportionally. You are a human of empathy and erudition, so you can mostly think, see, and operate past this blind spot, the same way most of us can still drive and paint and live life despite our literal blind spots.
But it's there. It colors everything, the way you perceive others, the way you perceive yourself. It distorts perspective. It requires convoluted, Ptolemaic contortions of logic. It destroys your brevity, your wit.
You don't like fat people.
Look, it's okay. You don't have to like everyone. Half the FUN of witty people is listening to them lay a burn on some subgroup or another. And like I said, you're empathetic. You learn the language, you take deep breaths, you look past the rolls, you make friends, you fumble toward objectivity.
But you're still a bigot. Because you look at fat people and see the fat kid you used to be.
You're also going to get called on this bigotry, consistently, for as long as you're a printed advice columnist. Your job, your schtick, your bread and butter is throwing stones at other people's glass houses. But the rest of us have stones, and we're looking to you. You're a public figure.
So what do you do now? Probably not a lot more than you have done, in the short term. In the long term, I'd advise for your own sanity (both as a human and as a busy professional who doesn't want to be derailed by blow-ups like this every few weeks) to learn to study the 'obesity phenomenon,' which you admit you find fascinating, with a little less pathology.
Most people who were fat and became thin talk like you do; they talk about 'getting their fat ass off the couch,' about 'putting the chips down,' about discipline and self-control. They talk like their mind is R. Lee Ermey and their body is Vincent D'Onofrio, only this time there was a happy ending.
As a result, the mind-body conversation is perceived to be 'healthy' when it is one-way. The mind tells the body, the body obeys. Weight is lost or kept off. I would argue that, in profound cases of obesity, a contributing factor is a mind-body conversation that is one-way in the other direction; the mind may be sending signals of 'I feel crummy, I want to run and play, I want vitamins, I want to drink water, I want to sleep more and have more sex and suffer from less depression," but the body isn't listening.
There's a middle way. You can listen to your body, even if it occasionally says things that make the lizard-brain part of you that remembers being a fat kid twinge and go on a drill sergeant rant. You can let the conversation flow both ways. Doing so would a) help you understand the clinical obesity figures and science you're so fascinated by on a different, deeper level, b) further the quest for empathy, the lifelong process of shrinking the blind spots which every ethical bigot must do, and c) prepare you better for raising a child who will be touched by the obesity epidemic in a very different way than you or your husband were.
More...
Everyone has at least one blind spot, one human failing that, however serious it may or may not be on its own merits, we are incapable of processing proportionally. You are a human of empathy and erudition, so you can mostly think, see, and operate past this blind spot, the same way most of us can still drive and paint and live life despite our literal blind spots.
But it's there. It colors everything, the way you perceive others, the way you perceive yourself. It distorts perspective. It requires convoluted, Ptolemaic contortions of logic. It destroys your brevity, your wit.
You don't like fat people.
Look, it's okay. You don't have to like everyone. Half the FUN of witty people is listening to them lay a burn on some subgroup or another. And like I said, you're empathetic. You learn the language, you take deep breaths, you look past the rolls, you make friends, you fumble toward objectivity.
But you're still a bigot. Because you look at fat people and see the fat kid you used to be.
You're also going to get called on this bigotry, consistently, for as long as you're a printed advice columnist. Your job, your schtick, your bread and butter is throwing stones at other people's glass houses. But the rest of us have stones, and we're looking to you. You're a public figure.
So what do you do now? Probably not a lot more than you have done, in the short term. In the long term, I'd advise for your own sanity (both as a human and as a busy professional who doesn't want to be derailed by blow-ups like this every few weeks) to learn to study the 'obesity phenomenon,' which you admit you find fascinating, with a little less pathology.
Most people who were fat and became thin talk like you do; they talk about 'getting their fat ass off the couch,' about 'putting the chips down,' about discipline and self-control. They talk like their mind is R. Lee Ermey and their body is Vincent D'Onofrio, only this time there was a happy ending.
As a result, the mind-body conversation is perceived to be 'healthy' when it is one-way. The mind tells the body, the body obeys. Weight is lost or kept off. I would argue that, in profound cases of obesity, a contributing factor is a mind-body conversation that is one-way in the other direction; the mind may be sending signals of 'I feel crummy, I want to run and play, I want vitamins, I want to drink water, I want to sleep more and have more sex and suffer from less depression," but the body isn't listening.
There's a middle way. You can listen to your body, even if it occasionally says things that make the lizard-brain part of you that remembers being a fat kid twinge and go on a drill sergeant rant. You can let the conversation flow both ways. Doing so would a) help you understand the clinical obesity figures and science you're so fascinated by on a different, deeper level, b) further the quest for empathy, the lifelong process of shrinking the blind spots which every ethical bigot must do, and c) prepare you better for raising a child who will be touched by the obesity epidemic in a very different way than you or your husband were.
202
Right now, being "thin" is the social norm. And the acceptable thing. But as the number of obese people rises, being overweight - and even very overweight - is going to become the norm. And it probably will become accepted too.
And I think that's disturbing. Because being overweight is not like being gay, or black, or any of the other things people have made allusion to. I know that not everyone is the same size and that some people have lower metabolisms, or health issues, that make it hard for them to lose weight, but that doesn't mean that fat people are born fat and will always be fat and that it is totally beyond their control. Even if it is out of some people's control, there is no way it's out of 30% (or more) of the population's control. And the more accepting we become, the more we say that it's okay to be overweight, that you shouldn't be allowed to talk about obesity, the more kids are going to become fat. And unhealthy. Because their parents will think that there isn't anything they can do about it, and that it's normal that all their kids are fat.
And I'm pretty sure that a lot (if not most) overweight people would rather not be overweight.
And I think that's disturbing. Because being overweight is not like being gay, or black, or any of the other things people have made allusion to. I know that not everyone is the same size and that some people have lower metabolisms, or health issues, that make it hard for them to lose weight, but that doesn't mean that fat people are born fat and will always be fat and that it is totally beyond their control. Even if it is out of some people's control, there is no way it's out of 30% (or more) of the population's control. And the more accepting we become, the more we say that it's okay to be overweight, that you shouldn't be allowed to talk about obesity, the more kids are going to become fat. And unhealthy. Because their parents will think that there isn't anything they can do about it, and that it's normal that all their kids are fat.
And I'm pretty sure that a lot (if not most) overweight people would rather not be overweight.
203
Jesus Christ. Criticism really gets to you, doesn't it.
"I could probably get her fired"? But you won't because you really love her? What amazing power you have.
"I could probably get her fired"? But you won't because you really love her? What amazing power you have.
205
Is "privilege" the "academic" jargon-babble word that "progressive" libtards use when they don't have any actual facts or logic to use to argue against someone who uses facts and logic to disprove "progressive" emotional histrionic idealistic fantasies?
206
To the tl;dr commenters, I trust you're devoting your reading energies to Proust or Dostoevsky or Rawls or Nozick or some other likewise tl;mr work. Or something involving angry cats or birds or whatevs. Luckily for you, you won't have the time to wade through the following.
----------------------------------
This exchange is the quintessence of a serious, extraordinarily well-articulated discussion (in the internet sense, which is to say public and relatively immediate) of a subject that is important in many, many ways. How often does this sort of thing happen online?
My gut (biggish but not huge) goes with DS on this one. Having read/listened to him for many years, I've not detected a significant anti-fat animus, though I must admit there may be a "dog whistle" effect at work here (i.e. I'm not fat and so don't hear things that others might). The links LW posts in the "here are some links" part of her post seem all to be situational - DS's responses to particular problems wherein fat was presented in a problematic way - rather than evidence of systematic anti-fat hate. I can think of more than a few examples when "fat" is raised as an issue by the writer/caller and DS responds thoughtfully and with compassion (e.g. most recently the first call of SLCast 207).
All of that said, two sentences from LW's post distress me a bit:
1. "I don't have kids, but I pay taxes that fund schools."
and
2. I don't give a shit what causes anyone's fatness.
First off, that taxes-that-fund-schools thing is a positive externality for the childless. Nobody wants to live in neighborhood rife with unemployable late-teen droogs. So, from those of us taking the time and expense to raise non-droog kids, you’re welcome. More to the point though, I think that if LW did have kids she might be more concerned about what causes kids' fatness. Not to go all anecdotal (though pretty solid research backs me up), but I have two daughters, the oldest being nine. Both are in the same public school. Our nine-year-old was on the school lunch program for a while, in part because it was convenient and in part because it was cheap, really cheap. After a little while, my wife looked into the menu and the various nutritional claims and that was it for school lunches. The fat, sugar, and sodium were staggering - and this from a school that claimed to be aware of these issues and, in fact, was doing reasonably well vs. national averages.
I look at some of the kids (and in particular girls) in my oldest daughter's class and it's not too hard to see the "lard prisons" forming at this incredibly early age. The parents don't seem to be helping. We've had sleepovers the morning after which some young friends were dismayed to learn that there were no Danishes for breakfast. Or bacon.
So, yeah, I give a shit about what causes people's fatness, and in particular the under-twelve set. I understand that that there genetic/hormonal factors. My oldest daughter is, right now, what you'd call "chubby," but she's likely to be around 6' tall, so there's a good chance she lucked out. But she'd likely get a lot chubbier if we let her eat crap and play her Nintendo DS all day. And then A LOT chubbier at college when the only food she knew was crap - a specialty of most college meal plans - and she didn't think to go swimming or biking or whatever. And then she graduates into a stressful job and why not eat to relax? (I can, from personal experience, attest a bit to that last part)
I understand that this is not the universal path to bigness/fatness, far from it. But it is one path, and an increasingly broad one in this country.
More...
----------------------------------
This exchange is the quintessence of a serious, extraordinarily well-articulated discussion (in the internet sense, which is to say public and relatively immediate) of a subject that is important in many, many ways. How often does this sort of thing happen online?
My gut (biggish but not huge) goes with DS on this one. Having read/listened to him for many years, I've not detected a significant anti-fat animus, though I must admit there may be a "dog whistle" effect at work here (i.e. I'm not fat and so don't hear things that others might). The links LW posts in the "here are some links" part of her post seem all to be situational - DS's responses to particular problems wherein fat was presented in a problematic way - rather than evidence of systematic anti-fat hate. I can think of more than a few examples when "fat" is raised as an issue by the writer/caller and DS responds thoughtfully and with compassion (e.g. most recently the first call of SLCast 207).
All of that said, two sentences from LW's post distress me a bit:
1. "I don't have kids, but I pay taxes that fund schools."
and
2. I don't give a shit what causes anyone's fatness.
First off, that taxes-that-fund-schools thing is a positive externality for the childless. Nobody wants to live in neighborhood rife with unemployable late-teen droogs. So, from those of us taking the time and expense to raise non-droog kids, you’re welcome. More to the point though, I think that if LW did have kids she might be more concerned about what causes kids' fatness. Not to go all anecdotal (though pretty solid research backs me up), but I have two daughters, the oldest being nine. Both are in the same public school. Our nine-year-old was on the school lunch program for a while, in part because it was convenient and in part because it was cheap, really cheap. After a little while, my wife looked into the menu and the various nutritional claims and that was it for school lunches. The fat, sugar, and sodium were staggering - and this from a school that claimed to be aware of these issues and, in fact, was doing reasonably well vs. national averages.
I look at some of the kids (and in particular girls) in my oldest daughter's class and it's not too hard to see the "lard prisons" forming at this incredibly early age. The parents don't seem to be helping. We've had sleepovers the morning after which some young friends were dismayed to learn that there were no Danishes for breakfast. Or bacon.
So, yeah, I give a shit about what causes people's fatness, and in particular the under-twelve set. I understand that that there genetic/hormonal factors. My oldest daughter is, right now, what you'd call "chubby," but she's likely to be around 6' tall, so there's a good chance she lucked out. But she'd likely get a lot chubbier if we let her eat crap and play her Nintendo DS all day. And then A LOT chubbier at college when the only food she knew was crap - a specialty of most college meal plans - and she didn't think to go swimming or biking or whatever. And then she graduates into a stressful job and why not eat to relax? (I can, from personal experience, attest a bit to that last part)
I understand that this is not the universal path to bigness/fatness, far from it. But it is one path, and an increasingly broad one in this country.
207
Sounds like The Agenda is finally unravelling at the seams.
Women rebelling against being made to look like 14 year old boys to feed the unisex marketing globalism.
Dan Savage castigating them for not toeing the line.
Women rebelling against being made to look like 14 year old boys to feed the unisex marketing globalism.
Dan Savage castigating them for not toeing the line.
208
If obesity is related to deep-seated psychological problems or an explosion in metabolic disorders, what precisely has triggered that in the last few decades and how did it happen?
Hint: that's not how it happened. It happened because for the vast majority of us, we're eating more and exercising less. For the overwhelming majority of fat people, being fat is a choice. There are many things in life we shouldn't make light of people for - being short, being gay, being disabled. These are all things that AREN'T the result of choices. If you make bad choices - eating too much/exercising too little over a long period of time, wearing ridiculous clothes, getting bad tattoos, getting a DUI - be prepared to live with the consequences and Deal With It.
Hint: that's not how it happened. It happened because for the vast majority of us, we're eating more and exercising less. For the overwhelming majority of fat people, being fat is a choice. There are many things in life we shouldn't make light of people for - being short, being gay, being disabled. These are all things that AREN'T the result of choices. If you make bad choices - eating too much/exercising too little over a long period of time, wearing ridiculous clothes, getting bad tattoos, getting a DUI - be prepared to live with the consequences and Deal With It.
209
Oh Dan... wouldn't it be easier to just admit that you've said hurtful things, try to improve your attitude, and move on?
Seriously, I used to be fat too, so I see where you're coming from on this. You internalized all that hatred of fat, and apparently that's still what's fueling your desire to stay thin. Well, whatever works I guess, but that set of tactics is deeply self-destructive for some of us. For example: I was fat, then in my teens I got thin, then I got anorexic. I used to exercise until I got lightheaded. I had to crawl back home from a 2 hour run once because I hadn't eaten for nearly a day.
You know what was really important to getting over that eating disorder? Letting myself get chubby again! I got back up to a size 10 and realized I was still cute, and much happier than at size 4. I drank and ate and had a great time, and didn't watch my weight at all.
Now I've started exercising, (just low-impact stuff because running triggers me to starve myself) and eating very carefully, and life is even better. But you know what? 7 years after I got away from anorexia, I had to go back to therapy because I figured out my self-hatred was still in there somewhere, just buried. When I bought a new pair of pants that was 2 sizes smaller than my regular size, my euphoria over my weight loss suddenly turned into a COMPULSION TO STARVE MYSELF. Suddenly, improvement and health were my enemies, because they made me look at my body through that anorexic lens of "better, but still horribly fat".
My therapist is now making me keep a food diary to make sure that I don't fall back off the anorexia wagon as I try to get fit. I'm not allowed to weigh or measure myself because the numbers are an instant trigger toward my old anorexic goals.
So please watch out with the tough love on this subject, Dan. You never know what tofu-eating, bike-commuting, Pilates-doing part of your audience is going to be wincing and compulsively pinching the fat on their sides in response to some offhand comment about muffin tops. Self hate can motivate, but it can also destroy.
More...
Seriously, I used to be fat too, so I see where you're coming from on this. You internalized all that hatred of fat, and apparently that's still what's fueling your desire to stay thin. Well, whatever works I guess, but that set of tactics is deeply self-destructive for some of us. For example: I was fat, then in my teens I got thin, then I got anorexic. I used to exercise until I got lightheaded. I had to crawl back home from a 2 hour run once because I hadn't eaten for nearly a day.
You know what was really important to getting over that eating disorder? Letting myself get chubby again! I got back up to a size 10 and realized I was still cute, and much happier than at size 4. I drank and ate and had a great time, and didn't watch my weight at all.
Now I've started exercising, (just low-impact stuff because running triggers me to starve myself) and eating very carefully, and life is even better. But you know what? 7 years after I got away from anorexia, I had to go back to therapy because I figured out my self-hatred was still in there somewhere, just buried. When I bought a new pair of pants that was 2 sizes smaller than my regular size, my euphoria over my weight loss suddenly turned into a COMPULSION TO STARVE MYSELF. Suddenly, improvement and health were my enemies, because they made me look at my body through that anorexic lens of "better, but still horribly fat".
My therapist is now making me keep a food diary to make sure that I don't fall back off the anorexia wagon as I try to get fit. I'm not allowed to weigh or measure myself because the numbers are an instant trigger toward my old anorexic goals.
So please watch out with the tough love on this subject, Dan. You never know what tofu-eating, bike-commuting, Pilates-doing part of your audience is going to be wincing and compulsively pinching the fat on their sides in response to some offhand comment about muffin tops. Self hate can motivate, but it can also destroy.
210
Oh, and I don't see you as "the enemy" Dan, and I doubt Lindy does either. You're a great, thoughtful commentator and advice-giver, so we know you can do better on this issue. I for one am being demanding because I like your work and feel you could improve. So the defensiveness is pretty uncalled for
211
Canuck@158 You know, if somebody said that smokers had the most unsightly disgusting habit, I'd agree. But, if they said that and then said they weren't biased against them or didn't hate them, I'd be questioning their sanity. Wouldn't you? I think smoking is a dirty digusting habit, and I won't say that I am not biased against them just because I have smoking friends. I won't even date a smoker, just as Dan won't date a fat dude. But Dan says, "I'm do care about fat people...look, I even hired one!"
I don't think Lindy is telling Dan to take fat off his discussion table. But, she is saying that he needs to either alter his rhetoric (by putting on kid's gloves as he put it), or own up to his participation in fat shaming. Just as one should own up to it with smoker shaming.
@198 What conversation? The one about Dan getting called on his bias? Of course nobody is hosting that conversation. That'd be silly.
I don't think Lindy is telling Dan to take fat off his discussion table. But, she is saying that he needs to either alter his rhetoric (by putting on kid's gloves as he put it), or own up to his participation in fat shaming. Just as one should own up to it with smoker shaming.
@198 What conversation? The one about Dan getting called on his bias? Of course nobody is hosting that conversation. That'd be silly.
213
I presume Dan just forgot to put a poll at the end of his post. I'd click on the "Dan is right" button. Lindy clearly has a lot of emotion around this topic, and I think she lashed out at Dan unfairly.
215
on the other hand....about every three years, some women's magazine like Cosmo goes and puts out a BBW issue where they claim that women are "becoming more comfortable with their bodies" and that "plus sizes" can be fashionable.
so, us guys roll our eyes and wait...until next month when they have some hot bikini babe with a flat stomach and size 2 behind.
216
It makes sense that people would be wondering why so many Stranger staffers cheered Lindy's post.
Who would dare speak for anyone else after all this, but for myself:
I cheered Lindy's post for many reasons, the most basic being that it was fucking great writing, in form and substance. Ballsy, raw, funny, painful, wonderful.
I agree with Constant that Michael Wells @121 is the reaction to read in this thread. And as Michael @121 said, Lindy's post was the same kind of naked, fearless gut punch that Dan has so wonderfully delivered himself, so many times, to tremendous effect and great admiration—including from me.
Who's most right on this particular issue? I actually do care, but I care more that people understand how rare it is to have this kind of talent tangling, and how lucky we are that Dan and Lindy both have the sort of compulsion/curse/conscience that makes them Slog it out.
Thank you, Dan, for this post—and for this whole damn forum.
Who would dare speak for anyone else after all this, but for myself:
I cheered Lindy's post for many reasons, the most basic being that it was fucking great writing, in form and substance. Ballsy, raw, funny, painful, wonderful.
I agree with Constant that Michael Wells @121 is the reaction to read in this thread. And as Michael @121 said, Lindy's post was the same kind of naked, fearless gut punch that Dan has so wonderfully delivered himself, so many times, to tremendous effect and great admiration—including from me.
Who's most right on this particular issue? I actually do care, but I care more that people understand how rare it is to have this kind of talent tangling, and how lucky we are that Dan and Lindy both have the sort of compulsion/curse/conscience that makes them Slog it out.
Thank you, Dan, for this post—and for this whole damn forum.
217
Hey Dan, I have no idea if you'll even read this or not, but I just have to say this.
I really don't think you have anything to prove to people who know you, read you regularly and aren't dealing with unresolved personal issues of their own. *cough* I think you're generally perfectly fair in your columns - you don't pull punches and sugar-coat shit, and that's a GOOD thing. It's that straight-shooting that makes you occasionally vulnerable to people who take snippets of what you say out of context to back up their own personal feelings of victimization (asexuals, bisexuals, fat people, the list goes on...), but I hope you never change because it's part of what makes you so awesome.
Frankly, as far as I'm concerned all this says a lot more about Lindy (and people's need to find a target for their frustrations with how society treats their particular "group" - however unfair) than it does about you. I don't think you did anything wrong, and none of this hysteria is going to change that fact. Yeah, maybe you could have phrased some things better, but so fucking what? People don't read Savage Love or SLOG for its sensitivity or delicate turn of phrase, they read it because it's good advice told in a direct and no-nonsense way.
I guess what I'm trying to say is please try to ignore the band-wagoners, drama queens and people trying to treat you as a voodoo doll for their personal hangups - all this will pass, and I hope you won't let it get to you. You're a good guy, you help a lot of people, and nobody with anything worth saying can do it without offending a few people along the way. The vast majority of your fans understand that, and I hope you do too.
I really don't think you have anything to prove to people who know you, read you regularly and aren't dealing with unresolved personal issues of their own. *cough* I think you're generally perfectly fair in your columns - you don't pull punches and sugar-coat shit, and that's a GOOD thing. It's that straight-shooting that makes you occasionally vulnerable to people who take snippets of what you say out of context to back up their own personal feelings of victimization (asexuals, bisexuals, fat people, the list goes on...), but I hope you never change because it's part of what makes you so awesome.
Frankly, as far as I'm concerned all this says a lot more about Lindy (and people's need to find a target for their frustrations with how society treats their particular "group" - however unfair) than it does about you. I don't think you did anything wrong, and none of this hysteria is going to change that fact. Yeah, maybe you could have phrased some things better, but so fucking what? People don't read Savage Love or SLOG for its sensitivity or delicate turn of phrase, they read it because it's good advice told in a direct and no-nonsense way.
I guess what I'm trying to say is please try to ignore the band-wagoners, drama queens and people trying to treat you as a voodoo doll for their personal hangups - all this will pass, and I hope you won't let it get to you. You're a good guy, you help a lot of people, and nobody with anything worth saying can do it without offending a few people along the way. The vast majority of your fans understand that, and I hope you do too.
218
Just a message of support for Dan Savage against the anti-science denialist fat acceptance pile on.
220
C'mon, dudes. Both of you did great things for humanity in 2010. Now shake hands, have a heart-to-heart away from all of us, compare notes, and see what you can accomplish in 2011.
221
Awesome response Dan.
As a bigger person myself, I've never felt hurtful vitriol from your words about the obesity epidemic, despite the fact that I enjoy being a fat guy at 5'6" & 250.
I accept who I am, and unlike Lindy, I don't want to change me, because I love me. And because of your work, I know that I will find someone who loves me as well.
Hell, I may already have...lol...
As a bigger person myself, I've never felt hurtful vitriol from your words about the obesity epidemic, despite the fact that I enjoy being a fat guy at 5'6" & 250.
I accept who I am, and unlike Lindy, I don't want to change me, because I love me. And because of your work, I know that I will find someone who loves me as well.
Hell, I may already have...lol...
222
So, missing a piece of Seattle, I decided to go to the Slog, and, something is apparently up Dan Savage and Lindy West's asses again. This time, it's each other and something having to do with fat people. And I know my opinion does not really matter, but I just had to say: Dan Savage can be funny on occasion, but is usually a jerk who was a marginally successful theater type who gives advice that is taken seriously, even though he isn't some sort of trained doctor or lettered scholar. He started out a joke columnist for the Onion, and now everyone takes him serious, including major mainstream media. And he considers himself VERY IMPORTANT. Thus he fits in at The Stranger perfectly.
And Lindy West is a twat. I have stated this many times. And I'll plug in a million links to back it up. And she considers herself so funny and brilliant and...well, she fits in at The Stranger perfectly.
You both DO care about your targeted audience, who thinks you are brilliant, funny, sophisticated, talented, beautiful, and most of all, always has the right opinion. And you see that audience that you care most about every day when you brush your teeth.
There.
Now move along, folks. There's bigger things in the world then two self important "writers" having an argument in public.
And Lindy West is a twat. I have stated this many times. And I'll plug in a million links to back it up. And she considers herself so funny and brilliant and...well, she fits in at The Stranger perfectly.
You both DO care about your targeted audience, who thinks you are brilliant, funny, sophisticated, talented, beautiful, and most of all, always has the right opinion. And you see that audience that you care most about every day when you brush your teeth.
There.
Now move along, folks. There's bigger things in the world then two self important "writers" having an argument in public.
223
95% - that's how often diets fail, ie. long-term weight loss is not achieved. YOU are the exception, not those of us who have tried and tried and tried and are still fatty fatty fat fats.
224
There are so many things people do that are a threat to their life and limb. So many things. Let's move on.
225
223: Diets fail because they are considered to be temporary. Don't diet (verb). Permanently change your diet (noun) .
226
First, an introduction. I'm a fat lady (with a pretty face, ha), BMI in the 30's, clothing size 16-18. I exercise a lot but I overeat under stress and that's how I stay fat.
Dan, I wonder if you realize that what you said here about gay men's self-destructive habits applies almost word-for-word to fat people. I quote (from #2):
"Sexually-active gay men have... higher rates of drug and alcohol abuse (some of that drug and alcohol abuse is rooted in self-hatred, which the wider society is responsible for creating; sometimes it's rooted in destructive community norms, which gay men are responsible for."
I think you know that this is true if you replace "gay men" with "fatties" and "drug and alcohol abuse" with "overeating", but it's not clear so I want to make sure. I ask because I've been having an argument with myself for a few years now, and I still can't decide. What I'm debating is this: should I keep trying to lose weight in hopes of finding someone to love, when it's like running to stand still (fighting your natural urges, as unhelpful as they may be, takes a lot of energy)? Or should I give up and enjoy the hell out of my food in hopes of eating myself to death? If I could choose the latter and be guaranteed that it would work in a year or two, I'd do it, no question. But what with all the exercise I get and the fruits and vegetables I eat, I don't think it would be that easy, so I remain on the fence. Too bad I can't wear a sign that says LOVE ME I EAT MY 5-A-DAY.
I'm not telling you and the rest of Slog this to be maudlin. Just trying to be honest about a real phenomenon. You say you're being honest too, about the obesity epidemic.* I like honesty. You're an influential guy (great power, responsibility, all that). Before you write again about obesity, I just hope you'll ask yourself if you're helping to create the kind of environment, even inadvertently, that makes me wonder sincerely whether I'd be better off dead.
*And I'm the first to decry the supersized portions, the corn syrup in EVERYTHING, the environment that makes walking and climbing and lifting things a hobby instead of a natural part of life. I'm not just fabulous with my scooter and my Thickburger, TYVM.
More...
Dan, I wonder if you realize that what you said here about gay men's self-destructive habits applies almost word-for-word to fat people. I quote (from #2):
"Sexually-active gay men have... higher rates of drug and alcohol abuse (some of that drug and alcohol abuse is rooted in self-hatred, which the wider society is responsible for creating; sometimes it's rooted in destructive community norms, which gay men are responsible for."
I think you know that this is true if you replace "gay men" with "fatties" and "drug and alcohol abuse" with "overeating", but it's not clear so I want to make sure. I ask because I've been having an argument with myself for a few years now, and I still can't decide. What I'm debating is this: should I keep trying to lose weight in hopes of finding someone to love, when it's like running to stand still (fighting your natural urges, as unhelpful as they may be, takes a lot of energy)? Or should I give up and enjoy the hell out of my food in hopes of eating myself to death? If I could choose the latter and be guaranteed that it would work in a year or two, I'd do it, no question. But what with all the exercise I get and the fruits and vegetables I eat, I don't think it would be that easy, so I remain on the fence. Too bad I can't wear a sign that says LOVE ME I EAT MY 5-A-DAY.
I'm not telling you and the rest of Slog this to be maudlin. Just trying to be honest about a real phenomenon. You say you're being honest too, about the obesity epidemic.* I like honesty. You're an influential guy (great power, responsibility, all that). Before you write again about obesity, I just hope you'll ask yourself if you're helping to create the kind of environment, even inadvertently, that makes me wonder sincerely whether I'd be better off dead.
*And I'm the first to decry the supersized portions, the corn syrup in EVERYTHING, the environment that makes walking and climbing and lifting things a hobby instead of a natural part of life. I'm not just fabulous with my scooter and my Thickburger, TYVM.
227
I actually like the skin tight low rise jeans coupled with midriff baring tops look of a few years ago. I find it attractive. Dig the tunnel.
228
Shocking to see that Dan is taking so much heat over this. Fat people need to get over themselves. Newsflash: Dan Savage is insensitive and abrasive. Stunning. Wonderful insight. Asking Dan to tone it down is like asking Sarah Palin to go vegan. It's not going to happen. It's who Dan is, and Jeebus bless him for it.
Anyone that says lessening the amount of food you eat and increasing your amount of exercise does not lead to weight loss is extremely ignorant. I understand arguments against anecdotal evidence, but you don't need a peer-reviewed study to prove that eating less and exercising more will lead to weight loss. The laws of thermodynamics prove this. It's basic physics people. If a person burns more energy than it consumes, a person will lose weight. This basic scientific fact cannot be disputed. Yes, some people have higher metabolisms and burn more energy at rest than others, while others have slower metabolisms and store more of the energy they consume as fat. It does not change the laws of physics.
Dan is a huge supporter of people being free to live their lives as they want. He just tries to encourage them to be honest about the risks/benefits associated with their decisions. I don't see what's wrong with that approach. Dan mocks everybody for their likes/dislikes/lifestyle. It's part of his schtick.
Anyone that says lessening the amount of food you eat and increasing your amount of exercise does not lead to weight loss is extremely ignorant. I understand arguments against anecdotal evidence, but you don't need a peer-reviewed study to prove that eating less and exercising more will lead to weight loss. The laws of thermodynamics prove this. It's basic physics people. If a person burns more energy than it consumes, a person will lose weight. This basic scientific fact cannot be disputed. Yes, some people have higher metabolisms and burn more energy at rest than others, while others have slower metabolisms and store more of the energy they consume as fat. It does not change the laws of physics.
Dan is a huge supporter of people being free to live their lives as they want. He just tries to encourage them to be honest about the risks/benefits associated with their decisions. I don't see what's wrong with that approach. Dan mocks everybody for their likes/dislikes/lifestyle. It's part of his schtick.
229
Shocking to see that Dan is taking so much heat over this. Fat people need to get over themselves. Newsflash: Dan Savage is insensitive and abrasive. Stunning. Wonderful insight. Asking Dan to tone it down is like asking Sarah Palin to go vegan. It's not going to happen. It's who Dan is, and Jeebus bless him for it.
Anyone that says lessening the amount of food you eat and increasing your amount of exercise does not lead to weight loss is extremely ignorant. I understand arguments against anecdotal evidence, but you don't need a peer-reviewed study to prove that eating less and exercising more will lead to weight loss. The laws of thermodynamics prove this. It's basic physics people. If a person burns more energy than s/he consumes, a person will lose weight. This basic scientific fact cannot be disputed. Yes, some people have higher metabolisms and burn more energy at rest than others, while others have slower metabolisms and store more of the energy they consume as fat. It does not change the laws of physics.
Dan is a huge supporter of people being free to live their lives as they want. He just tries to encourage them to be honest about the risks/benefits associated with their decisions. I don't see what's wrong with that approach. Dan mocks everybody for their likes/dislikes/lifestyle. It's part of his schtick.
Anyone that says lessening the amount of food you eat and increasing your amount of exercise does not lead to weight loss is extremely ignorant. I understand arguments against anecdotal evidence, but you don't need a peer-reviewed study to prove that eating less and exercising more will lead to weight loss. The laws of thermodynamics prove this. It's basic physics people. If a person burns more energy than s/he consumes, a person will lose weight. This basic scientific fact cannot be disputed. Yes, some people have higher metabolisms and burn more energy at rest than others, while others have slower metabolisms and store more of the energy they consume as fat. It does not change the laws of physics.
Dan is a huge supporter of people being free to live their lives as they want. He just tries to encourage them to be honest about the risks/benefits associated with their decisions. I don't see what's wrong with that approach. Dan mocks everybody for their likes/dislikes/lifestyle. It's part of his schtick.
230
Dan, I'm with you.
I spent a lot of life throwing jeans out because my thighs rubbed holes in the legs. I have been that sweaty-faced girl with about 5 rolls between my bra strap and my ass. I've been fat and known what that feels like, and invisibility and judgment it brings, and being broken up with for "not being pretty enough" and from all this I have learned one thing: skinny feels better. And I don't mean to be too harsh--I think gently of myself then, but I wish I had made the effort a long time ago. Also, it was always within my power to get there, even though it took years of hard, hard work. And obesity isn't just about eating and exercise--there's a lot of underlying stuff going on with almost everyone. There are underlying issues! I was terrified of relationships, and being fat was a nice thing to fall back on to justify not having any. Once I got over that, I was suddenly ready to let my ass go.
Yes, you could have approached this whole issue with a bit more compassion. This caustic thing of yours seems like it takes a lot of energy. But you're dead right.
I was overweight as hell and made all those lists of things I liked about myself and why I was worthy of love and an ode to my beautiful complexion and all that insufferable Oprah-fied women's magazine bullshit. Yeah, none of that worked as well as running my ass off and developing a keen taste for vegetables.
People are so up in arms about this line "Nothing tastes as good as skinny feels." Yes, it's bad that its used as an anorexic cheerleading slogan. That is no good. But what I can't get out of head is--within reason, that line is not wrong. Food is delicious. I fucking love food. But the immediate tasting of food doesn't have the all day whiz bang "fuck yeah!" as catching my cheekbones in a window reflection or re-aquainting the world with my waist. And sex is SO MUCH better. Good holy God it's better. Not only are people more attracted to me, I am more attracted to myself. I want it more and I have so much more energy. So man, I'm with you. You're right. Sorry everyone is throwing rotten tomatoes at you.
More...
I spent a lot of life throwing jeans out because my thighs rubbed holes in the legs. I have been that sweaty-faced girl with about 5 rolls between my bra strap and my ass. I've been fat and known what that feels like, and invisibility and judgment it brings, and being broken up with for "not being pretty enough" and from all this I have learned one thing: skinny feels better. And I don't mean to be too harsh--I think gently of myself then, but I wish I had made the effort a long time ago. Also, it was always within my power to get there, even though it took years of hard, hard work. And obesity isn't just about eating and exercise--there's a lot of underlying stuff going on with almost everyone. There are underlying issues! I was terrified of relationships, and being fat was a nice thing to fall back on to justify not having any. Once I got over that, I was suddenly ready to let my ass go.
Yes, you could have approached this whole issue with a bit more compassion. This caustic thing of yours seems like it takes a lot of energy. But you're dead right.
I was overweight as hell and made all those lists of things I liked about myself and why I was worthy of love and an ode to my beautiful complexion and all that insufferable Oprah-fied women's magazine bullshit. Yeah, none of that worked as well as running my ass off and developing a keen taste for vegetables.
People are so up in arms about this line "Nothing tastes as good as skinny feels." Yes, it's bad that its used as an anorexic cheerleading slogan. That is no good. But what I can't get out of head is--within reason, that line is not wrong. Food is delicious. I fucking love food. But the immediate tasting of food doesn't have the all day whiz bang "fuck yeah!" as catching my cheekbones in a window reflection or re-aquainting the world with my waist. And sex is SO MUCH better. Good holy God it's better. Not only are people more attracted to me, I am more attracted to myself. I want it more and I have so much more energy. So man, I'm with you. You're right. Sorry everyone is throwing rotten tomatoes at you.
231
Lindy is not a saint. Dan is not evil incarnate.
I *love* the InterWebz where people can basically say "you're a fucktard" and walk away whistling without repercussions. To the people who just came here to hate on either Dan or Lindy instead of trying to add something substantive to the dialog, I want to say thanks (read thanks=fuck you) for NOT contributing anything of value.
Dan's piece is "boring" or "too long" -- yet you've perhaps followed over 1000 posts on the topic? Please, let's try to be fair. A lot of crap was leveled at Dan's door, and this is an emotionally-charged topic. Two paragraphs would have been too little; this was too much. I think at this point, to many, Dan's damned regardless of what he writes. He has the right to say his piece, though, in whatever form that takes; so again, I say "fuck you."
In reading all that has been written, including the posts from Dan's archive that point to him actually being, if not FAT-positive, at least accepting and believing in the rights of people to live their own lives without being shamed; shamed for being fat; shamed for being kinky; shamed for not being "normal"--whatever the fuck that is. Does he lapse sometimes? Maybe. Yeah, Dan can come off as abrupt and perhaps overly frank, and yeah, sometimes that's not what people need or want... But Dan is Dan. He always has been, always will be. If you don't want that type of advice and if it pisses you off to read the words of that type of person, then don't read his stuff. I sure as fuck don't read Glenn freakin' Beck or "Dr." Laura. Getting them to change is pointless. I have a feeling the same is true of Dan.
IMHO Both Lindy and Dan are talented, thought-provoking writers. I think Lindy is Seattle's own Wonder Woman for writing her "I Am Fat" column. I also think Dan's got balls of steel for being in the discussion, trying to get his point across in the face of a lot of, well, hate. I thank both of them for these threads, but especially Lindy who bravely, eloquently, was the one to lance this boil.
More...
I *love* the InterWebz where people can basically say "you're a fucktard" and walk away whistling without repercussions. To the people who just came here to hate on either Dan or Lindy instead of trying to add something substantive to the dialog, I want to say thanks (read thanks=fuck you) for NOT contributing anything of value.
Dan's piece is "boring" or "too long" -- yet you've perhaps followed over 1000 posts on the topic? Please, let's try to be fair. A lot of crap was leveled at Dan's door, and this is an emotionally-charged topic. Two paragraphs would have been too little; this was too much. I think at this point, to many, Dan's damned regardless of what he writes. He has the right to say his piece, though, in whatever form that takes; so again, I say "fuck you."
In reading all that has been written, including the posts from Dan's archive that point to him actually being, if not FAT-positive, at least accepting and believing in the rights of people to live their own lives without being shamed; shamed for being fat; shamed for being kinky; shamed for not being "normal"--whatever the fuck that is. Does he lapse sometimes? Maybe. Yeah, Dan can come off as abrupt and perhaps overly frank, and yeah, sometimes that's not what people need or want... But Dan is Dan. He always has been, always will be. If you don't want that type of advice and if it pisses you off to read the words of that type of person, then don't read his stuff. I sure as fuck don't read Glenn freakin' Beck or "Dr." Laura. Getting them to change is pointless. I have a feeling the same is true of Dan.
IMHO Both Lindy and Dan are talented, thought-provoking writers. I think Lindy is Seattle's own Wonder Woman for writing her "I Am Fat" column. I also think Dan's got balls of steel for being in the discussion, trying to get his point across in the face of a lot of, well, hate. I thank both of them for these threads, but especially Lindy who bravely, eloquently, was the one to lance this boil.
232
Fantastic column.
Facts scare people. There might actually be some people in the world who are thin and are going to stay that way no matter what they eat or how seldom they go to the gym. There are also people out there who are immune to AIDS.
Does that mean people should generalize on the basis of those outliers? No! Most people will gain weight by not exercising and eating crap. And most people will get AIDS by having unprotected sex with someone who has AIDS.
Is Lindy West eating well and exercising a lot? If not, she should order herself a supersized serving of STFU, because she doesn't know whether she will lose weight or not by doing those things.
The perverse logic? Now that she's been liberated from her shame, she's also been liberated from the motivation to lose weight. That, in a nutshell, is what's so perverse about FA itself.
Anyway, I'm already telling my kids to go to medical school and become gastric-bypass specialists, because, thanks to FA, there's going to be mountains of fat people in this country for a long time to come.
Facts scare people. There might actually be some people in the world who are thin and are going to stay that way no matter what they eat or how seldom they go to the gym. There are also people out there who are immune to AIDS.
Does that mean people should generalize on the basis of those outliers? No! Most people will gain weight by not exercising and eating crap. And most people will get AIDS by having unprotected sex with someone who has AIDS.
Is Lindy West eating well and exercising a lot? If not, she should order herself a supersized serving of STFU, because she doesn't know whether she will lose weight or not by doing those things.
The perverse logic? Now that she's been liberated from her shame, she's also been liberated from the motivation to lose weight. That, in a nutshell, is what's so perverse about FA itself.
Anyway, I'm already telling my kids to go to medical school and become gastric-bypass specialists, because, thanks to FA, there's going to be mountains of fat people in this country for a long time to come.
233
Too long!? Does fat affect fat people's attention span? Can they reading nothing that's longer than a menu?
234
OH MY GOD Lindy needs to fucking chill out. Her bullshit quotemining aside (and by the way? when you have to resort to distorting your enemy's words out of context? you might be wrong), wtf? Fat people know they're fat so you just have to STFU? Telling people to shut up about something that is both important and true just because it makes you uncomfortable is pretty messed up.
Side note: to all the FA types who get on these threads and then respond to people's weight-loss stories with stuff like "talk to me in two years you will have gained it all back and more CACKLE CACKLE HAHAHA" - you are seriously fucked up as people. We all understand that there isn't some sort of one-to-one relationship between weight loss and health improvement, but for many of these people whose failure you so eagerly anticipate, they have made themselves healthier and perhaps even added years to their lives. That you would cheer for them to fail is truly sociopathic.
Side note: to all the FA types who get on these threads and then respond to people's weight-loss stories with stuff like "talk to me in two years you will have gained it all back and more CACKLE CACKLE HAHAHA" - you are seriously fucked up as people. We all understand that there isn't some sort of one-to-one relationship between weight loss and health improvement, but for many of these people whose failure you so eagerly anticipate, they have made themselves healthier and perhaps even added years to their lives. That you would cheer for them to fail is truly sociopathic.
235
Fantastic rebuttal, Dan. I must be terribly frustrating to have to respond to an accusation that is based on half-truths, out of context statements, outright lies ("you're the boss of me"), and feelings.
You did all of that while showing Lindy a measure of respect that she didn't show you. Good job.
You did all of that while showing Lindy a measure of respect that she didn't show you. Good job.
237
I'm with dan on this. Could he be more diplomatic when talking about obesity? Sure. Has he been hateful? Um, not really. Is Lindy being overly sensitive? Have the obese tried to expropriate the language of discrimination to try to absolve themselves of the role of individual responsibilty in the obesity epidemic? Emphatic yes and yes!!
Now can we please get a SLLOTD?
Now can we please get a SLLOTD?
238
I am now replacing all references to really, really fucking expensive wars on education, Mexico, Iraq, Vietghanistan, Yemen...the Norm Dicks Patriot Act and Boeing's drone warfare on brown skinned-kids who sleep in houses...with fat, gay or Goldy.
Not that Goldy is fat, gay or a drone...but you know, if there's one way to get peoples minds off of Boeing's wars that are fought by gay people, not fat...well, my hat is off to you Seattle Fusion Center...well played!
Egypt today...maybe Centralia tomorrow. Spokane is calm like a bomb. Give the Slog a good old fashioned body image battle and you get what we had here last week...Obama change on a Bush tortured plate?
Well fuck me if I didn't lose steam there towards the end.
Not that Goldy is fat, gay or a drone...but you know, if there's one way to get peoples minds off of Boeing's wars that are fought by gay people, not fat...well, my hat is off to you Seattle Fusion Center...well played!
Egypt today...maybe Centralia tomorrow. Spokane is calm like a bomb. Give the Slog a good old fashioned body image battle and you get what we had here last week...Obama change on a Bush tortured plate?
Well fuck me if I didn't lose steam there towards the end.
240
I love the comments by the Stranger's staff on this. I've loved this topic. You guys are all fucking great. Keep it up!
243
There is a bit of cognitive dissonance in first reading her post and then reading her restaurant review in which she waxes rapturous about a 1/3 pound burger and fries dripping with grease.
I mean, which of these statements is fat-shaming?
1. Americans are getting more overweight and more obese
2. In general, there are more health risks associated with being overweight and obese than not
3. For the vast majority of people, it's a combination of calories and exercise, not of glandular problems or fixed body weights.
4. The American obsession with consumption and quantity means that Americans are eating more and more at meals. Especially when that meal is crap (see Big Gulps, fast food meals, etc.).
And there's something so ironic about the fat pride people accusing Dan of privilege. Christ, what a bunch of self-absorbed, thin-skinned, middle class left coasters (says the man posting comment 239, but in my defense I'm home sick today).
I mean, which of these statements is fat-shaming?
1. Americans are getting more overweight and more obese
2. In general, there are more health risks associated with being overweight and obese than not
3. For the vast majority of people, it's a combination of calories and exercise, not of glandular problems or fixed body weights.
4. The American obsession with consumption and quantity means that Americans are eating more and more at meals. Especially when that meal is crap (see Big Gulps, fast food meals, etc.).
And there's something so ironic about the fat pride people accusing Dan of privilege. Christ, what a bunch of self-absorbed, thin-skinned, middle class left coasters (says the man posting comment 239, but in my defense I'm home sick today).
244
Yay, Dan. Good response. Sorry you have to put up with so much anger and hatred from the FA people.
Just remember like usual there's a silent majority of us who agree with you, but people who agree are never as noisy as people who disagree.
Just remember like usual there's a silent majority of us who agree with you, but people who agree are never as noisy as people who disagree.
245
Lindy and her whine has the same validity as any Republican effort to "protect" marriage. When people get their undies in a twist without valid reason, it usually means they are in their first womens studies class, or have decided they have a particular axe to grind.
Dan, keep doing what you do, let her be a hater and do not validate her ignorance by paying it any more attention. She is clearly a drama queen, resist the urge to queen back.
Dan, keep doing what you do, let her be a hater and do not validate her ignorance by paying it any more attention. She is clearly a drama queen, resist the urge to queen back.
246
Misanthrope @211 By using smoking as an example, I meant that there has been a conversation about its negative effects on health, and knowing that, I would discourage my kids from smoking (and from a health standpoint, not let people smoke in my house.) I guess I'm having trouble with the language: When does pointing out problems with a certain behaviour become shaming? I just think that excess weight, because it affects so many of us (>63%) is such a painful issue that a lot of people don't want to have any kind of conversation about it. I also think personal preference has gotten mixed up with public education, as in, what Dan likes in his personal life vs. "here's another article on how our sedentary lifestyle has affected weight over the years." As I said on the monster thread, I don't take it as a personal affront that Dan prefers men to women, or that he finds women's bits "gross." (That's as it should be, right?) I don't think the fact that he doesn't want to sleep with women negates his right to have a conversation about women's issues, and I feel the same way about the weight issue.
Sorry, I don't agree that he should treat certain groups with kid gloves. While he may appreciate duct tape in his personal life, I'd rather not see it applied to his writing.
Sorry, I don't agree that he should treat certain groups with kid gloves. While he may appreciate duct tape in his personal life, I'd rather not see it applied to his writing.
248
For the "Healthy At Any Size" crowd.
http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/…
Oh, Sorry for the shaming. (The truth you don't want to hear.)
http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/…
Oh, Sorry for the shaming. (The truth you don't want to hear.)
249
Without getting into the actual substance of the post (partially because I'm posting this comment during a 10-minute coffee break I'm giving myself): Let me get this straight. When Lindy writes a post publicly accusing a coworker of outright bigotry, that's brave, but if Dan attempts to respond, that's somehow the insensitive ramblings of someone blind to his own privilege? Really?
I'm not saying that Lindy didn't make a number of good points; she did. (And I'm with pretty much everyone who's commented on this series of threads when I say, Lindy, you're wonderful, you're beautiful, and I'm genuinely glad to see you've moved past all the anti-fat prejudice we see in our society.) But the idea that Dan has somehow committed some grave offense by responding - and doing so in a fairly sensitive fashion - is absurd. It's downright Palin-esque.
Seriously, Dan's comments about overweight people are sometimes insensitive...but so are his comments about, I dunno, gay men, lesbians, women, men, guns, religion, other cultures, occasionally lawyers...you get the idea.
This kind of reminds me of GLAAD freaking the fuck out over John Mayer's offhand use of the word "fag" in that one interview. Was it a little insensitive? Sure. But aren't there better things to do with one's time than beat the war drum against someone who's always been more of an ally than an enemy? Yeesh.
I'm not saying that Lindy didn't make a number of good points; she did. (And I'm with pretty much everyone who's commented on this series of threads when I say, Lindy, you're wonderful, you're beautiful, and I'm genuinely glad to see you've moved past all the anti-fat prejudice we see in our society.) But the idea that Dan has somehow committed some grave offense by responding - and doing so in a fairly sensitive fashion - is absurd. It's downright Palin-esque.
Seriously, Dan's comments about overweight people are sometimes insensitive...but so are his comments about, I dunno, gay men, lesbians, women, men, guns, religion, other cultures, occasionally lawyers...you get the idea.
This kind of reminds me of GLAAD freaking the fuck out over John Mayer's offhand use of the word "fag" in that one interview. Was it a little insensitive? Sure. But aren't there better things to do with one's time than beat the war drum against someone who's always been more of an ally than an enemy? Yeesh.
251
@198 "it's really a discussion between smart people who have strong feelings. And hooray for that."
Oh really, Paul? Don't you mean hooray for that in this case? I'll look for evidence of your celebration of intellectual discussion in your next Ayn-Rand-was-a-cunt-so-boo-on-anything-associated-with-her-name post.
Oh really, Paul? Don't you mean hooray for that in this case? I'll look for evidence of your celebration of intellectual discussion in your next Ayn-Rand-was-a-cunt-so-boo-on-anything-associated-with-her-name post.
252
I give the win to Dan because I laughed (smiled and smirked) more while reading his piece than I did while reading Lindy's. This is all about informing while being as witty as humanly possible, right?
253
@246 - Canuck, agree 100%. I don't get the link between what Dan has said/posted over the years and being nailed up as a bigot here. Especially since this whole thing started with an apparent misreading of Dan's 'Ban Fat Marriage' post.
254
Wow - this column touched a nerve in a lot of people.
I do think Lindy overreacted and misinterpreted Dan's comments - and I understand why he needed to set the record straight.
Dan, your strong reaction shows that her comments hit home on some level. This feud seems to have gone beyond friendly arguing. Please take it private ... both of you.
I do think Lindy overreacted and misinterpreted Dan's comments - and I understand why he needed to set the record straight.
Dan, your strong reaction shows that her comments hit home on some level. This feud seems to have gone beyond friendly arguing. Please take it private ... both of you.
255
It's the American way: blame all your problems on someone else.
Everybody quit making blond jokes because I am blond and I don't like your jokes! THEY MAKE ME FEEL BAD and therefore you need to adjust your behavior and never speak a word about dumb blonds again! I CAN'T HELP BEING BLOND! So everyone just zip your lips because my fragile narcissistic ego can't take the fact that some people think blonds are stupid.
I hate myself and it is all Dan Savage's fault!
Some (a LOT of) people need to put on their big-girl panties and realize that not everyone in this world has to like you or think you are attractive or tip toe around your ego. It's called LIFE and it's not fair. Wake the F up.
Everybody quit making blond jokes because I am blond and I don't like your jokes! THEY MAKE ME FEEL BAD and therefore you need to adjust your behavior and never speak a word about dumb blonds again! I CAN'T HELP BEING BLOND! So everyone just zip your lips because my fragile narcissistic ego can't take the fact that some people think blonds are stupid.
I hate myself and it is all Dan Savage's fault!
Some (a LOT of) people need to put on their big-girl panties and realize that not everyone in this world has to like you or think you are attractive or tip toe around your ego. It's called LIFE and it's not fair. Wake the F up.
256
Oh, Dan! I adore you, but you're simply misguided here. And I know you've dug in your heels and all, so I'm not gonna argue with you (much). But if you're actually interested, you should read Health at Every Size and the blog fatnutritionist.com.
Are extremely obese people subject to increased health risks? Yep, and few fat-acceptance advocates would argue with you there. But the folks whose fat puts them at potential risk are an itty bitty slice of the population (about six percent). And it's sweet of your brother to defend you, but a genetic predisposition to a certain weight does not mean that two brothers would be identical sizes, just as genetics don't mean that they'd necessarily share an eye color or the ability to roll the tongue. Also, fat-acceptance experts in the fields of diet and nutrition theorize that our bodies have a roughly thirty-pound rage, not a magical number that's our set point. And set points can go up with repeated cycles of dieting, weight loss, and weight regain.
Have a lovely day, and enjoy your high horse. :)
Are extremely obese people subject to increased health risks? Yep, and few fat-acceptance advocates would argue with you there. But the folks whose fat puts them at potential risk are an itty bitty slice of the population (about six percent). And it's sweet of your brother to defend you, but a genetic predisposition to a certain weight does not mean that two brothers would be identical sizes, just as genetics don't mean that they'd necessarily share an eye color or the ability to roll the tongue. Also, fat-acceptance experts in the fields of diet and nutrition theorize that our bodies have a roughly thirty-pound rage, not a magical number that's our set point. And set points can go up with repeated cycles of dieting, weight loss, and weight regain.
Have a lovely day, and enjoy your high horse. :)
257
Lindy, to judge by the picture she posted earlier, is not obese or even really fat, but merely padded. There is a big difference between the level of adipose that pads your cheeks and prevents you from ever being hired as a fashion model, and the level that will induce your doctor to have a Talk with you. Lindy is well over three times taller than she is wide. She does not qualify as unhealthily fat.
260
Dan learned a valuble lesson. Anyone willing to put their life at risk for the dubious pleasure of a doughnut is only too willing to throw you under the bus for no reason what so ever.
261
I loved Dan Savage until about 15 minutes ago when I came across this gaunt and angry, defensive ex-fat kid rant about how bad, bad, bad was/is all things FAT.
--Current Fat and Queer Femme, tyvm.
--Current Fat and Queer Femme, tyvm.
263
I loved Dan Savage until about 15 minutes ago when I came across this gaunt and angry, defensive ex-fat kid rant about how bad, bad, bad was/is all things FAT.
--Current Fat and Queer Femme, tyvm.
--Current Fat and Queer Femme, tyvm.
264
Sorry, but I vote for Dan.
I've been reading his column for years, and I've never sensed in anything he's ever written that he was authentically prejudiced toward any group other than gay Republicans.
For those who feel otherwise, find a different column to read.
I've been reading his column for years, and I've never sensed in anything he's ever written that he was authentically prejudiced toward any group other than gay Republicans.
For those who feel otherwise, find a different column to read.
267
Here's the thing, Dan. You seem to talk about obesity a LOT more than other people on slog. Also, you made a post a little while back about how if gay marriage is illegal so should be obese marriage. So how does alienating people work towards your goal? You've talked before about how 'these people' (haters/christians) shouldn't be engaged in a direct argument, since they don’t deal in facts you can argue. So here you are, arguing a point: they say gay marriage is bad for america’s health, you point out that obese marriage is worse. So now all these obese people who agree that marriage rights should be equal now feel attacked by you. Maybe that’s not your intention, but that’s how the message is received.
So your comment that you shouldn’t have to put on kid gloves is valid, but you have to realize that you can’t claim you don’t hate obese people when that’s how you come across.
So your comment that you shouldn’t have to put on kid gloves is valid, but you have to realize that you can’t claim you don’t hate obese people when that’s how you come across.
268
<3 Dan! I, too, love that Lindy loves her body and I encourage people to lead whatever lifestyles make them happy. But pretending there aren't health risks is a service to nobody, and self-censoring about an interesting current trend just so some people don't get their sensitive feelings hurt is bullshit.
Ban Fat Marriage was hilarious and apt juxtaposition to a ridiculous fundie argument, and I saw no reason to take it any more seriously than that. Besides, if you're going to get pissed every time Dan says something snarky and unflattering -- be it "rolls of flesh", "canned ham", or any number of cracks about bisexuality -- you are reading the wrong damn blog. Also, there are real health risks associated with being angry that I think you should know about.
Ban Fat Marriage was hilarious and apt juxtaposition to a ridiculous fundie argument, and I saw no reason to take it any more seriously than that. Besides, if you're going to get pissed every time Dan says something snarky and unflattering -- be it "rolls of flesh", "canned ham", or any number of cracks about bisexuality -- you are reading the wrong damn blog. Also, there are real health risks associated with being angry that I think you should know about.
269
Dan, I haven't read your entire post and I'm not sure if you're going to read all these messages - if you do, just remember that 99.9% of your audience adores you and totally understands what you mean about fat people, bisexuals, whatever - don't get caught up in this stupidity. You are smart, empathetic, reasonable and even heroic for standing up for the gay community - forget about 'it's get better' which has become so much a part of our culture that it's almost gone beyond 'Dan Savage' and become it's own thing.
I imagine there's millions of people out there whose sex lives you have transformed: I had the most romantic Valentine's day imaginable last night, and had probably the best sex I have ever had to date (after eating chinese dumplings in a picnic on our bed, not before) where I got to fully experience my sexuality and share my boyfriends - and I am pretty sure I wouldn't have been able to express myself and submit myself if I hadn't been a regular, longtime reader. Thanks to your work.
You speak broadly, for a wide audience, and there are necessarily people out there who want to take offense - and it is their right. But please don't feel like you have to pander to their malarkey. Love, echovic
I imagine there's millions of people out there whose sex lives you have transformed: I had the most romantic Valentine's day imaginable last night, and had probably the best sex I have ever had to date (after eating chinese dumplings in a picnic on our bed, not before) where I got to fully experience my sexuality and share my boyfriends - and I am pretty sure I wouldn't have been able to express myself and submit myself if I hadn't been a regular, longtime reader. Thanks to your work.
You speak broadly, for a wide audience, and there are necessarily people out there who want to take offense - and it is their right. But please don't feel like you have to pander to their malarkey. Love, echovic
270
@257
Lindy is not "padded." Lindy is obese. Her BMI is over 38. She's getting well into morbidly obese.
Her clothes are great. She's attractive. But she is morbidly obese.
Her weight is shortening her life. It's her choice. If she's happy with it, good for her.
It is sort of life being a smoker, though. Some people find it gross and will say so. If you don't want them to say you're gross, quit whining, and get on a fucking treadmill already.
Lindy is not "padded." Lindy is obese. Her BMI is over 38. She's getting well into morbidly obese.
Her clothes are great. She's attractive. But she is morbidly obese.
Her weight is shortening her life. It's her choice. If she's happy with it, good for her.
It is sort of life being a smoker, though. Some people find it gross and will say so. If you don't want them to say you're gross, quit whining, and get on a fucking treadmill already.
271
It's so awesome to watch you sanctimonious white Seattle libtards turn on each other and get eaten by your own retarded ideological dogma!!!!
272
Yeah... you still got that wrong. Here, let me fix it for you:
...And the fact that you can't see the difference between the two just illustrates how big of a pompous ass you really are.
"I am thoroughly annoyed at having my tame statements of fact—being heavy is a health risk; the rolls of exposed flesh created by low-rise jeans/high-rise tops are unsightly—characterized as 'hate speech.'"
Yeah... you still got that wrong. Here, let me fix it for you:
"I am thoroughly annoyed at having my tame statements of fact—being heavy is a health risk; AND MY OPINION- the rolls of exposed flesh created by low-rise jeans/high-rise tops are unsightly TO ME—characterized as 'hate speech.'"
...And the fact that you can't see the difference between the two just illustrates how big of a pompous ass you really are.
273
@246
I don't think smoking and "obesity" are very good parallels, because smoking does not have the same complexity around it. Smoking is smoking. You smoke, or you don't. (With a small exception for people who smoke when drinking.) But being "fat" can veer widely based on opinion and a misunderstanding of the current scientific literature on the subject.
Is "obesity" a health issue? Does "obesity" affect your health? Yes. But what exactly do we define as "obesity?" What measures do we use? (BMI? Hip to waist ratio? Resting heart rate? Body fat content?) How, exactly, does obesity have an affect on the body? Yes, it wears down joints... But so does running. Many marathon runners that need their knees replaced as "obese" people. Sports can be just as grueling and demanding on the body as extra weight.
So what exactly do we mean when we say "health?" Yeah, eat right and exercise... But there doesn't seem to be much of an agreement on WHAT is "eating right." And WHAT exactly is the proper amount of "exercise?"
Yes, weight is a factor in SOME diseases. But there are several behaviors that are more directly linked to life threatening diseases (sun tanning <-> skin cancer) that are not discussed. Some studies even suggest a "few extra pounds" may PROLONG life and prevent CERTAIN diseases, while causing others. (I have yet to see smoking prevent a disease or prolong life.)
I don't want to see Dan stop discussing the obesity "epidemic." (Another interesting observation: an epidemic is usually a term reserved for contagious diseases. Why do we apply it to weight gain? Does obesity actually ACT like an epidemic?) What I want is for him to discuss it in the complex matter it deserves.
I don't think smoking and "obesity" are very good parallels, because smoking does not have the same complexity around it. Smoking is smoking. You smoke, or you don't. (With a small exception for people who smoke when drinking.) But being "fat" can veer widely based on opinion and a misunderstanding of the current scientific literature on the subject.
Is "obesity" a health issue? Does "obesity" affect your health? Yes. But what exactly do we define as "obesity?" What measures do we use? (BMI? Hip to waist ratio? Resting heart rate? Body fat content?) How, exactly, does obesity have an affect on the body? Yes, it wears down joints... But so does running. Many marathon runners that need their knees replaced as "obese" people. Sports can be just as grueling and demanding on the body as extra weight.
So what exactly do we mean when we say "health?" Yeah, eat right and exercise... But there doesn't seem to be much of an agreement on WHAT is "eating right." And WHAT exactly is the proper amount of "exercise?"
Yes, weight is a factor in SOME diseases. But there are several behaviors that are more directly linked to life threatening diseases (sun tanning <-> skin cancer) that are not discussed. Some studies even suggest a "few extra pounds" may PROLONG life and prevent CERTAIN diseases, while causing others. (I have yet to see smoking prevent a disease or prolong life.)
I don't want to see Dan stop discussing the obesity "epidemic." (Another interesting observation: an epidemic is usually a term reserved for contagious diseases. Why do we apply it to weight gain? Does obesity actually ACT like an epidemic?) What I want is for him to discuss it in the complex matter it deserves.
274
Anyone who actually reads/listens to Dan regularly knows that:
A) he is the most open-minded, accepting person out there
B) he often pokes fun at the people seeking advice, BECAUSE IT'S FUNNY
I'm not saying he's a saint, but anyone who would doubt that he's ultimately compassionate and kind, has clearly missed what he's all about.
I love Lindy, she's hilarious and brilliant, but Dan is not the bad guy here. And I definitely would want to defend myself if I had been so unfairly attacked in a public forum, at length.
Love you Dan.
A) he is the most open-minded, accepting person out there
B) he often pokes fun at the people seeking advice, BECAUSE IT'S FUNNY
I'm not saying he's a saint, but anyone who would doubt that he's ultimately compassionate and kind, has clearly missed what he's all about.
I love Lindy, she's hilarious and brilliant, but Dan is not the bad guy here. And I definitely would want to defend myself if I had been so unfairly attacked in a public forum, at length.
Love you Dan.
276
I am a smoker. I am also a grown woman and I have to listen to people talk about my smoking continually, for crying out loud there are commercials and websites dedicated to telling me how horrible it is. Strangers stopping on the street to tell me that smoking will kill me, make me old and ugly. I watch people fake cough while staring at me from across the street like my second hand smoke crossed a four lane street. If I have to put up with that, fat people can put up with their end of the stick. Do we have to appreciate what other people think of us? Agree with them? Hell no! But to sit there a huskier person and expect that no one is going to say anything, no one is going to hand you a ww flier or a free gym membership is just,ridiculous. You cant sit there, a fat person eating icecream or a smoker taking a puff of their inhaler before lighting up and expect people keep their mouths shut. If you honestly do then your stupid as well as unhealthy.
277
No one will probably read this, but I felt that I should say something. I am not sure I would be called fat, but I am certainly heavier then I have been in the past, despite relatively healthy eating habits. I can buy clothes in regular sizes, but only just and I am on the verge of no longer being able to do so. My personal feelings about the fat acceptance movement are complicated. Although I agree that learning to love and accept your body when it does not fit the industry standard is a great thing that will hopefully lead to a healthier ideal being perpetuated overall, I don't think self-acceptance should be used as an excuse for unhealthy or irresponsible behavior. My lifestyle is not one of total ease and immediate pleasure. Sure I have fun, sometimes I eat things that are bad for me or drink too much, but I do not see these as aspects of my life that defining and non-negotiable. Lindy and many other FA people act like eating a bag of dorritos is just a fact of life, one that cannot be changed, one that they'll just have to learn to live with. They know it's tied to their weight, but somehow see being fat as an inalienable right. I guess it is, but what confuses me is that they do not seem to take this philosophy with them to other aspects of their life. Lindy is obviously educated and accomplished. Clearly writing/intellectualism in general came more naturally to her than athletics, but to dismiss exercise and healthy eating all together as not who she is seems hypocritical. College is hard. I am finishing my final semester at an ivy league university, and as much as I would like to stop working and go back to bed; just giving up and saying I accept my academic non-conformity is stupid, short-sighted and really just a bad idea. Why is this attitude only acceptable in our eating/exercising habits? I agree it is hard to eat and exercise when so much neuroticism is attached to those activities, and I think it's great that Lindy has finally overcome those feelings, but why must we continue to stigmatize doing something that is good for us and calling out people like Dan Savage, who in the grand scheme of things is not the enemy, for suggesting that we strive for more than complacency and immediate gratification? I hold myself to the highest personal standard in all areas of my life. If you think that being fat is the only thing that our society and the media tells us we should be and the rest of your life is pure personal choice, you're wrong.
More...
278
Here's the thing, Dan. You seem to talk about obesity a LOT more than other people on slog. Also, you made a post a little while back about how if gay marriage is illegal so should be obese marriage. How does alienating people work towards your goal? You've talked before about how 'these people' (haters/christians) shouldn't be engaged in a direct argument, since they don’t deal in facts you can argue. So here you are, arguing a point: they say gay marriage is bad for america’s health, you point out that obese marriage is worse. And now all these obese people who agree that marriage rights should be equal feel attacked by you. Maybe that’s not your intention, but that’s how the message is received. And then you claim to never have made any negative comments on fat people.
So your remark that you shouldn’t have to put on kid gloves is valid, but you have to realize that you can’t claim you don’t hate obese people when that’s how you come across.
So your remark that you shouldn’t have to put on kid gloves is valid, but you have to realize that you can’t claim you don’t hate obese people when that’s how you come across.
280
Dan, you don't realize how much you sound like Perkins & LaBarbera here. You really do. Just substitute "fat" for "gay". And like them, you're on the losing end of this because your "concern" for the health of obese people doesn't ring true. I'm sorry, but I don't think you want obesity eliminated to improve the general health, you want obesity eliminated so that you won't have to look at obese people. And that's bigotry. You're a bigot, Dan Savage. Own up to it, and work on it. And no, don't worry, "working on it" does not involve having sex with a fat guy.
It's cool, bud, we still love ya, warts and all. You've been part of my life for 15 years now, and if this was a problem for me, I would've stopped reading long ago (and my first, and best lover was in the obese category). But at the very least, give this a rest.
It's cool, bud, we still love ya, warts and all. You've been part of my life for 15 years now, and if this was a problem for me, I would've stopped reading long ago (and my first, and best lover was in the obese category). But at the very least, give this a rest.
282
@265: the tiptoeing by staffers is really apparent. I'm betting that in the office, Lindy is the super funny, fun, too-cool-for-school chick (which, I'd point out, are all coping mechanisms for being fat) that everyone wants to be friends with.
So they chime in to circle jerk the FA crowd initially -- and note that it was only the women and gay staffers who spoke up...~so oppressed~
Then on the other hand, there's Dan, and they see now that he's right. And shoot, he isn't technically their boss, but only because he chooses not to be and relinquished editorial duties to do other things. Make no mistake: the Stranger would not exist if not for Dan and Tim. This is their baby. He could snap his skinny little fingers and have any one of them dismissed.
So they are measuring their statements, and it's obvious. They are like the family members who got involved when they shouldn't have and are now trying to assert their neutrality to avoid further damage of their own credibility with the parties involved.
So they chime in to circle jerk the FA crowd initially -- and note that it was only the women and gay staffers who spoke up...~so oppressed~
Then on the other hand, there's Dan, and they see now that he's right. And shoot, he isn't technically their boss, but only because he chooses not to be and relinquished editorial duties to do other things. Make no mistake: the Stranger would not exist if not for Dan and Tim. This is their baby. He could snap his skinny little fingers and have any one of them dismissed.
So they are measuring their statements, and it's obvious. They are like the family members who got involved when they shouldn't have and are now trying to assert their neutrality to avoid further damage of their own credibility with the parties involved.
284
I was going to say that the fat advocates are externalizing an internal conflict about being fat and projecting their anger and self-loathing on to Dan (or anyone else who dares call them on their bs) and seeing malice and bigotry where none exists, but I got to the end of Dan's post and realized he already knew that.
I'm sorry to see that Lindy had trouble accepting her body; she's what Mexicans call, in their total and absolutely refreshing lack of political correctness, a "gordibuena", which would roughly translate as "hot fat chick" (BBW just doesn't cut it, as far as I'm concerned). Indeed, the other day, I spotted a shop called "Ropa para gorditas", i.e. Clothes for fat girls. That's fat acceptance. It does not preclude wanting to be healthy and adopt healthier habits. The Mexican government recently prohibited the sale of junk food at schools, and everybody agrees it's a good idea. But fat girls here proudly expose their "unsightly rolls of flesh" in public because they feel sexy, and believe me, they've got their fans.
Once fat people accept themselves, they can start seeing Dan's arguments for what they are. Until then, they'll just keep projecting their self-hatred on him and everyone else who hints that there's a link between size and eating/exercizing habits.
I'm an ex fat kid and a proud chubby chaser. The fact that I now have a quick metabolism and can't seem to get any weight has not made me perfectly healthy, since I could eat all the sugary stuff I wanted and am now borderline diabetic. But that's my fault. I know I'm responsible for my health, and I've taken appropriate steps to change my diet. So all you fat-advocacy ostriches, please do me a favour: just don't insult my intelligence, ok?
I'm sorry to see that Lindy had trouble accepting her body; she's what Mexicans call, in their total and absolutely refreshing lack of political correctness, a "gordibuena", which would roughly translate as "hot fat chick" (BBW just doesn't cut it, as far as I'm concerned). Indeed, the other day, I spotted a shop called "Ropa para gorditas", i.e. Clothes for fat girls. That's fat acceptance. It does not preclude wanting to be healthy and adopt healthier habits. The Mexican government recently prohibited the sale of junk food at schools, and everybody agrees it's a good idea. But fat girls here proudly expose their "unsightly rolls of flesh" in public because they feel sexy, and believe me, they've got their fans.
Once fat people accept themselves, they can start seeing Dan's arguments for what they are. Until then, they'll just keep projecting their self-hatred on him and everyone else who hints that there's a link between size and eating/exercizing habits.
I'm an ex fat kid and a proud chubby chaser. The fact that I now have a quick metabolism and can't seem to get any weight has not made me perfectly healthy, since I could eat all the sugary stuff I wanted and am now borderline diabetic. But that's my fault. I know I'm responsible for my health, and I've taken appropriate steps to change my diet. So all you fat-advocacy ostriches, please do me a favour: just don't insult my intelligence, ok?
286
I can't believe you start out with, "I'm being personally attacked! That person's calling me a bigot which is meanmeanmean my feelings are hurt!" You sound like all those religious whack-jobs who cry victim when they're stripped of their god-given right to keep gays out of B&Bs.
287
@145, Lindy's post was beautifully written and resonates with women who grow up feeling ashamed of their bodies for multitudes of reasons. Which, sadly, is most of us. She's great, the post was great, and I'll echo my colleagues here--it's incredible to watch smart people argue in a forum like this.
That said, Dan isn't a monster. He's kind, he's generous with his time, and yeah, he's blunt. Those gleefully pouncing on their chance to label him as a frothing, fat-hating tyrant are way off the mark.
That said, Dan isn't a monster. He's kind, he's generous with his time, and yeah, he's blunt. Those gleefully pouncing on their chance to label him as a frothing, fat-hating tyrant are way off the mark.
288
@ 278 That was not his point on "fat marriage". If you can't read, you shouldn't write.
SARCASM, you know what that means? Obviously not.
SARCASM, you know what that means? Obviously not.
289
Police will respond to calls from a neighbor that an age-appropriate kid is sent walking 15 minutes to his soccer practice -- like the mother did something wrong. Kids being raised like veal is the new normal.
When people are made to live in fear, they will medicate themselves. Where is the medication in starving yourself and being skinny?
When people are made to live in fear, they will medicate themselves. Where is the medication in starving yourself and being skinny?
290
Canuck@246 One can have a conversation about health issues without using words like "unsightly" and "gross" both of which are "fact" to him but obviously not actual FACT. But, that's not to say I want that. But, I don't want him to say , essentially, "Oh, yeah...I'm not biased against fat people, but they're gross." It's hypocritical and tacky. He should just own it.
If we're going to jump on women's issues, then Dan also has apologized for his several of his hurtful, sexist statements. Pressed Ham. Using pussy all the time for negative descriptives. Basically, he tends to kowtow to feminists almost to the point of being a pussy.
He doesn't back down on fat. He dodges and is avoidant on the topic. And, he hasn't fought for any fat rights (not that there are any that fat people are really fighting for).
Where do you see the harm in owning up to one's bias if you're going to use language that belittles and shames a group of people?
If we're going to jump on women's issues, then Dan also has apologized for his several of his hurtful, sexist statements. Pressed Ham. Using pussy all the time for negative descriptives. Basically, he tends to kowtow to feminists almost to the point of being a pussy.
He doesn't back down on fat. He dodges and is avoidant on the topic. And, he hasn't fought for any fat rights (not that there are any that fat people are really fighting for).
Where do you see the harm in owning up to one's bias if you're going to use language that belittles and shames a group of people?
292
Shorter Savage:
"I'm not Lindy's boss, although I can probably get her fired if I want. You know...because I'm magnanimous that way. And oh yeah, because I totally love her. Totally. blah blah blah I don't know why you think I don't like Lindy or why she's taking this so personally, even though I'm verbally patting her on her pretty little head like a delusional puppy. yadda yadda yadda DEATHFATZ! IT'S SCIENCE! YOU'RE GOING TO DIE! YES YOU, FATTY! blow blow blow Why would you give a fat kid a donut? amirite? That song about parents beating fat kids was totally relevant and NOT about bullying, so my previous work isn't hypocritical at all! la la la la Also, my hatred of fat rolls? That was *totally* out of context. I hate fat rolls on skinny people too! memelookatmememe I lost weight, even though you said it totally wasn't possible for any person to ever lose weight, even though you didn't say that! But I still am insecure about my body, and this totally proves that society's fat hatred can't possibly be the cause of that!"
"I'm not Lindy's boss, although I can probably get her fired if I want. You know...because I'm magnanimous that way. And oh yeah, because I totally love her. Totally. blah blah blah I don't know why you think I don't like Lindy or why she's taking this so personally, even though I'm verbally patting her on her pretty little head like a delusional puppy. yadda yadda yadda DEATHFATZ! IT'S SCIENCE! YOU'RE GOING TO DIE! YES YOU, FATTY! blow blow blow Why would you give a fat kid a donut? amirite? That song about parents beating fat kids was totally relevant and NOT about bullying, so my previous work isn't hypocritical at all! la la la la Also, my hatred of fat rolls? That was *totally* out of context. I hate fat rolls on skinny people too! memelookatmememe I lost weight, even though you said it totally wasn't possible for any person to ever lose weight, even though you didn't say that! But I still am insecure about my body, and this totally proves that society's fat hatred can't possibly be the cause of that!"
294
The real problem for Dan is that Lindy's on her way to becoming a bigger star than he is. In my mind, she already is.
295
Dan,
Effective takedown, and gentle enough, considering how much you like this ungrateful, projecting colleague.
As I said in comment 1000-something in Lindy's thread, you are not the enemy, and she needs to stop generalizing her experience. Some people wrongfully point to the gay equality movement as an example of political correctness run amok. I think the fat acceptance movement might be a better example.
Still and all, you have a little way to go to match the precision and brevity and brilliance of Will Wilkinson's pwnage.
Effective takedown, and gentle enough, considering how much you like this ungrateful, projecting colleague.
As I said in comment 1000-something in Lindy's thread, you are not the enemy, and she needs to stop generalizing her experience. Some people wrongfully point to the gay equality movement as an example of political correctness run amok. I think the fat acceptance movement might be a better example.
Still and all, you have a little way to go to match the precision and brevity and brilliance of Will Wilkinson's pwnage.
296
"I was taken out of context"? Really? That's your response?
"Rolls of exposed flesh are unsightly" is not a tame statement of fact; it's a highly charged statement of opinion, really no different from "light skin is prettier." It's a judgment based on cultural prejudices--ones shared by a majority of Westerners, to be sure, but prejudices all the same.
Actually, I have to say I'm totally bored by this little public squabble, but perhaps now you'll shut the fuck up about fat people and stick to what you're actually good at, which is giving sex advice.
"Rolls of exposed flesh are unsightly" is not a tame statement of fact; it's a highly charged statement of opinion, really no different from "light skin is prettier." It's a judgment based on cultural prejudices--ones shared by a majority of Westerners, to be sure, but prejudices all the same.
Actually, I have to say I'm totally bored by this little public squabble, but perhaps now you'll shut the fuck up about fat people and stick to what you're actually good at, which is giving sex advice.
298
Different strokes. Honestly, at Dan's age I think he should GAIN a few pounds to look a little more manly and hot. The super skinny theatre gay look isn't as effective after 35.
299
I feel like a neighbor when two siblings are beating on each other and Mom is off shopping. Cut it out, you two, or i'll call your grandma!
300
Wow. I am in shock that this ridiculous argument about "fat" has gotten out of hand and that Dan is being assaulted for absolutely no reason. I have never ever felt that Dan was anything but fair on the topic of fat and obesity. I cannot BELIEVE people are calling Dan "fat-phobic". He is upset about the obesity epidemic, as EVERYONE should be, and has always always always distinguished between 'obesity caused by bad decisions' and 'overweight but happy'. Whether people accept it or not, significant weight loss or gain DOES often affect how attractive a spouse/girlfriend/boyfriend/partner finds you, which is why it often comes up in Dan's column. On occasion, Dan has brought up gently encouraging a partner to make healthier decisions but has never said anything like "If you're partner is not a supermodel you should shame them into losing every last pound for my enjoyment" which is what it seems like everyone on this thread seems to think. In fact, if someone wrote in complaining about not being attracted to a skinny person they were dating, I bet that Dan would encourage them to find someone plumper to love. OH WAIT, THAT HAPPENED ALREADY.
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Savag…
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Savag…
301
Well written.
Being an advice columnist is bound to offend people. You're giving people ideas of how to make their life better which implies that some ways of living are worse. You can't write advice on fashion (for instance) without implying that some ways of dress aren't flattering (as you did).
Someone who is seeking to accept a part of themselves that is shamed by society at large will no doubt see you reinforcing those attitudes. To a point, this is inevitable.
For example, I had problems finding work when I first started listening. Society puts the unemployed down. Your advice (at the time) seemed like an attack... Saying "be employed to get a date" just made me have a harder time getting to a place where I could accept my situation.
But it wasn't an attack. And neither is fashion advice (however subjective) about what's flattering on people of a certain body type. And neither is advice that people should eat healthier. Or advice that being in shape can help people get dates.
Keep doing what you do. Much love.
Being an advice columnist is bound to offend people. You're giving people ideas of how to make their life better which implies that some ways of living are worse. You can't write advice on fashion (for instance) without implying that some ways of dress aren't flattering (as you did).
Someone who is seeking to accept a part of themselves that is shamed by society at large will no doubt see you reinforcing those attitudes. To a point, this is inevitable.
For example, I had problems finding work when I first started listening. Society puts the unemployed down. Your advice (at the time) seemed like an attack... Saying "be employed to get a date" just made me have a harder time getting to a place where I could accept my situation.
But it wasn't an attack. And neither is fashion advice (however subjective) about what's flattering on people of a certain body type. And neither is advice that people should eat healthier. Or advice that being in shape can help people get dates.
Keep doing what you do. Much love.
302
As the owner of a bisexual, morbidly obese pit bull who I taught to smoke cigars and pray to Sarah Palin, I'm deeply offended by all of this.
303
The problem with the obesity epidemic as reported by the news is similar to the problems of 'binge drinking' as reported by the news. Seeing as most people don't actually know what constitutes obesity on a technical level (as @50 says, the terms 'overweight' 'fat' and 'obese' are generally interchanged, despite having clear separate definitions) means that in people's mind the statistics are far different from reality. That you can be defined as obese by your doctor, and as such add to the statistics for it, while not being considered more then 'a little bit fat' by non-medical people you come into contact with means that while obesity is a huge problem in the western world, a lot of people don't actually know what they're talking about when they spout statistics (like the poster upthread who referred to 16/18 as not being seriously fat, when it's likely that someone that size would be termed obese, depending on their height).
The huge problem with the obesity epidemic (and one that some FA people are willing to tackle, but many others aren't) is that while *roughly speaking* eat less and exercise, more might result in weight loss for many people, the state of food available to many of these people, compounded with their income and distance from that food means that for many people, eating healthier is a huge burden they can't meet. (If you have to take public transport for an hour to get groceries, and you work full time, you're not going to be buying expensive fresh produce that'll go off before you next get a chance to shop)
If the only solution to the HIV crisis was to say 'buy condoms and have less sex', you'd probably agree that while technically correct advice, it would be woefully underserving those at risk not to do things like have more access to health clinics for education and testing, and to invest money in prevention, treatment and cures. But it doesn't matter how much the government say 'eat less' if half the food most people have available to them is full of additives and corn syrup.
More...
The huge problem with the obesity epidemic (and one that some FA people are willing to tackle, but many others aren't) is that while *roughly speaking* eat less and exercise, more might result in weight loss for many people, the state of food available to many of these people, compounded with their income and distance from that food means that for many people, eating healthier is a huge burden they can't meet. (If you have to take public transport for an hour to get groceries, and you work full time, you're not going to be buying expensive fresh produce that'll go off before you next get a chance to shop)
If the only solution to the HIV crisis was to say 'buy condoms and have less sex', you'd probably agree that while technically correct advice, it would be woefully underserving those at risk not to do things like have more access to health clinics for education and testing, and to invest money in prevention, treatment and cures. But it doesn't matter how much the government say 'eat less' if half the food most people have available to them is full of additives and corn syrup.
304
It's baffling that anybody would think a few examples of times when Savage restrained himself from being a total prick to fat people somehow "disproves" that he nonetheless has the ongoing habit of attacking and shaming fat people. He doesn't abuse fat people every day, in every utterance. Sometimes he talks about the subject in a polite-ish and sort of reasonable way.
The problem isn't all the times when he isn't making fat people feel like shit for no good cause. The problem is the times when he does, and that keeps doing it. And has the gall to think he's going to put a stop to the obesity epidemic by indulging in free fire asshollery to the epidemic's victims.
The problem isn't all the times when he isn't making fat people feel like shit for no good cause. The problem is the times when he does, and that keeps doing it. And has the gall to think he's going to put a stop to the obesity epidemic by indulging in free fire asshollery to the epidemic's victims.
305
@290 Misanthrope: I guess I don't see those comments as hurtful or cruel...snarky, yes, but he's that way on a lot of issues, and that's part of what makes him enjoyable to read. He's not Obama, where he has to moderate every word he speaks. But, to be fair, I was never offened, at all, by the "ham" description, I thought it was funny as hell, so maybe my slightly twisted sense of humour has something to do with it. And I don't think he should be kowtowing to feminists, either. But, it's clear that 1000+ people were offended, so it's obviously a sensitive issue, I just don't think that muzzling him is the right response. But that's my take on it, I seem to be in the minority on this one.
306
Dan, thank you for responding to this nonsense. I really don't understand what people are getting all upset about. Yes, fat people are discriminated against in society. Yes, fat women are especially demonized. But being obese is a fucking choice. Being big-boned naturally or having 10-20 lbs extra is one thing, but being 50 lbs. overweight? That's a lifestyle choice.
I'm not saying it's easy to choose a different path. People are seriously fucking addicted to food just like alcoholics are seriously fucking addicted to alcohol. You can eat or drink yourself to death, but you are choosing to do so. People DO NOT choose to be poor or gay or whatever fucking age they are or whatever fucking skin color they happen to have. That's the difference. Fat people weren't born fat people. They might have a genetic predisposition towards being overweight, just like children of alcoholic often have a genetic predisposition toward being alcoholics, but becoming fat or an alcoholic is ultimately a choice. I don't think we should actively discriminate against fat people or alcoholics, but to declare their lifestyle choices off-limits for discussion is ridiculous.
I'm not saying it's easy to choose a different path. People are seriously fucking addicted to food just like alcoholics are seriously fucking addicted to alcohol. You can eat or drink yourself to death, but you are choosing to do so. People DO NOT choose to be poor or gay or whatever fucking age they are or whatever fucking skin color they happen to have. That's the difference. Fat people weren't born fat people. They might have a genetic predisposition towards being overweight, just like children of alcoholic often have a genetic predisposition toward being alcoholics, but becoming fat or an alcoholic is ultimately a choice. I don't think we should actively discriminate against fat people or alcoholics, but to declare their lifestyle choices off-limits for discussion is ridiculous.
307
@296
"Rolls of exposed flesh are unsightly" is not a tame statement of fact; it's a highly charged statement of opinion, really no different from "light skin is prettier." It's a judgment based on cultural prejudices--ones shared by a majority of Westerners, to be sure, but prejudices all the same.
Of course it's an opinion. Aesthetics are based in opinion. Fashion advice is always based on what's "sightly" or "unsightly" in the eyes of the viewer. He was saying that a particular body type doesn't look good in a particular garment (in his opinion, obviously).
"Rolls of exposed flesh are unsightly" is not a tame statement of fact; it's a highly charged statement of opinion, really no different from "light skin is prettier." It's a judgment based on cultural prejudices--ones shared by a majority of Westerners, to be sure, but prejudices all the same.
Of course it's an opinion. Aesthetics are based in opinion. Fashion advice is always based on what's "sightly" or "unsightly" in the eyes of the viewer. He was saying that a particular body type doesn't look good in a particular garment (in his opinion, obviously).
308
What can one expect from the man who once described female genitalia as looking like a ham dropped from a great height?
310
Dan, I think you are exactly right about her externalizing her self-loathing about her weight. If she really was as at peace with herself as she wants us to believe she'd just laugh you off.
311
Epicurus @301 -- do you remember when it was that the discussion of "get a job to get a date"? I kinda wanna listen! Not because I'm unemployed, but because I was and hit a dry spell
312
Canuck@305 You delightfully avoided the other side of the argument...and the one I would rather see: Dan owning up to his bias.
Where do you see the harm in owning up to one's bias if you're going to use language that belittles and shames a group of people and not apologize for it?
Where do you see the harm in owning up to one's bias if you're going to use language that belittles and shames a group of people and not apologize for it?
313
Except, TheMisanthrope, that assumes there is a bias to be owned up to, which is exactly what Dan, in his own words, is trying to show isn't the case.
And just because some people are overly sensitive and insist Dan MUST be biased and therefore MUST own up to that bias, doesn't make that in the least bit true.
And just because some people are overly sensitive and insist Dan MUST be biased and therefore MUST own up to that bias, doesn't make that in the least bit true.
314
@290
"Where do you see the harm in owning up to one's bias if you're going to use language that belittles and shames a group of people."
I'll tell you where I see the harm in it. It seems to me that the real request here is for permission to ignore wholesale everything Dan has to say on the subject. 'Oh, ignore him, he just hates fat people.'
I can and do dismiss everything Dan says about the vagina's attractiveness. Pressed ham or beautiful flower, his opinion on the subject is completely worthless to any rational woman. He's a gay man. He can take it back and apologize for it or embroider it on a pillow, it couldn't matter less. I thought the pressed ham comment was funny. I thought Celie's description of a naked man in The Color Purple was as funny and I think naked guys are hot, generally.
Same, possibly to a lesser extent, with fashion advice. I was pretty lean in my hip rider jeans that made me look like a whale. I appreciated his comments on the subject. They reassured me that it wasn't me, it was the jeans. Still, his opinion on how women look in those jeans is ridiculously unimportant.
If he's commenting on one of the biggest heath problems this country faces, he should be careful about what he apologizes for. We should all be careful about how accepting we are of this. We should all be careful about the criticism we are willing to censor.
Lives are actually at stake. For really reals. It's different.
"Where do you see the harm in owning up to one's bias if you're going to use language that belittles and shames a group of people."
I'll tell you where I see the harm in it. It seems to me that the real request here is for permission to ignore wholesale everything Dan has to say on the subject. 'Oh, ignore him, he just hates fat people.'
I can and do dismiss everything Dan says about the vagina's attractiveness. Pressed ham or beautiful flower, his opinion on the subject is completely worthless to any rational woman. He's a gay man. He can take it back and apologize for it or embroider it on a pillow, it couldn't matter less. I thought the pressed ham comment was funny. I thought Celie's description of a naked man in The Color Purple was as funny and I think naked guys are hot, generally.
Same, possibly to a lesser extent, with fashion advice. I was pretty lean in my hip rider jeans that made me look like a whale. I appreciated his comments on the subject. They reassured me that it wasn't me, it was the jeans. Still, his opinion on how women look in those jeans is ridiculously unimportant.
If he's commenting on one of the biggest heath problems this country faces, he should be careful about what he apologizes for. We should all be careful about how accepting we are of this. We should all be careful about the criticism we are willing to censor.
Lives are actually at stake. For really reals. It's different.
316
Dont worry about it Dan.
Frankly, you oughtn't even respond to this
your loyal winged monkeys know the truth
Frankly, you oughtn't even respond to this
your loyal winged monkeys know the truth
317
I loved this response from Dan: It makes perfect sense, even if it is a bit long-winded. I enjoyed reading it, and agree with it!
What's really too bad is that some of the commenters here can't recognize intelligent arguing when they see it (from both LW and DS), and learn from it. It's so boring to read responses from those who cling to single words or phrases and bring 'em back up ad infinitum ("But you once said...!!!" "I'll never let anyone forget what you said out of context a million years ago...!!" It's so...Republican.
I'd love to see a world where everyone wasn't so offended and angered always by every little thought or comment that doesn't match theirs perfectly. It would be so much more interesting than the state of "debate" now, where everyone is a perpetual state of being offended by having to share the planet with people who aren't exactly like them. (Remember that bit about sticks and stones?) Nothing that has happened in the past has the power to effect how you behave in the present moment, unless you let it. In other words, buck up.
What's really too bad is that some of the commenters here can't recognize intelligent arguing when they see it (from both LW and DS), and learn from it. It's so boring to read responses from those who cling to single words or phrases and bring 'em back up ad infinitum ("But you once said...!!!" "I'll never let anyone forget what you said out of context a million years ago...!!" It's so...Republican.
I'd love to see a world where everyone wasn't so offended and angered always by every little thought or comment that doesn't match theirs perfectly. It would be so much more interesting than the state of "debate" now, where everyone is a perpetual state of being offended by having to share the planet with people who aren't exactly like them. (Remember that bit about sticks and stones?) Nothing that has happened in the past has the power to effect how you behave in the present moment, unless you let it. In other words, buck up.
318
I echo 7, a dance off is probably the only solution.
To be honest my estimation of Lindy has gone down as a result of all this. I think her Hello, I'm Fat post was too confrontational and geared toward taking Dan down a peg or two. I really enjoy her reviews but I don't think Dan was in the wrong in most of the examples she cited to justify her comments. The ban fat marriage was obviously not an actual argument for banning fat people marrying. It's definitely within people rights and is their perogative to be as fat as they want to be. But expecting everyone to overlook the inherent health risks and cost to society of the obesity epidemic is ridiculous.
To be honest my estimation of Lindy has gone down as a result of all this. I think her Hello, I'm Fat post was too confrontational and geared toward taking Dan down a peg or two. I really enjoy her reviews but I don't think Dan was in the wrong in most of the examples she cited to justify her comments. The ban fat marriage was obviously not an actual argument for banning fat people marrying. It's definitely within people rights and is their perogative to be as fat as they want to be. But expecting everyone to overlook the inherent health risks and cost to society of the obesity epidemic is ridiculous.
319
In order to feel like you own the space you're in (and a lot of women feel that they don't--look at how people sit on the bus), you have to get angry and get political, Then, after a time, you get to a place of real acceptance. I don't think Lindy's there yet. It could take years. Sometimes we target people because otherwise our anger has no sting.
I finally, after so many years, accepted myself and the space I take up in the world, when lo and behold I got diabetes. That shouldn't have been a surprise, as my Dad and his dad and his grandpa and my mom and brother and several uncles and aunts also have it. I never stood a chance.
But as many people love to say "eww, fatties gross," they don't know what it really means to have Diabetes 2. Not being able to see, having doubled-over pains, stabbing pain in the arms and legs, leg cramps at night, not being able to feel your feet. Getting ice-cold feet every day that can only be temporarily helped. Being really tired all the time. Getting cystic boils that don't heal for weeks and weeks. Constant pain.
Now lets add to that the health-care crisis. Trying to work decent hours in order to pay the rent. No metformin or insulin, even though it can be cheap with insurance. Having to stick to a diet that seems pretty easy--ask anyone whose tried to stick to a diet and exercise regimen. SIMPLE! EFFORTLESS! NO PROBLEM AT ALL! If you stray, just a little bit, you're hit with those problems again only worse. You wanna run five miles every day in order to avoid trying to pay for medicine without insurance? Try doing it at 250 pounds.
Having diabetes sucks, and it can kill you. It killed my Grandad.
I finally, after so many years, accepted myself and the space I take up in the world, when lo and behold I got diabetes. That shouldn't have been a surprise, as my Dad and his dad and his grandpa and my mom and brother and several uncles and aunts also have it. I never stood a chance.
But as many people love to say "eww, fatties gross," they don't know what it really means to have Diabetes 2. Not being able to see, having doubled-over pains, stabbing pain in the arms and legs, leg cramps at night, not being able to feel your feet. Getting ice-cold feet every day that can only be temporarily helped. Being really tired all the time. Getting cystic boils that don't heal for weeks and weeks. Constant pain.
Now lets add to that the health-care crisis. Trying to work decent hours in order to pay the rent. No metformin or insulin, even though it can be cheap with insurance. Having to stick to a diet that seems pretty easy--ask anyone whose tried to stick to a diet and exercise regimen. SIMPLE! EFFORTLESS! NO PROBLEM AT ALL! If you stray, just a little bit, you're hit with those problems again only worse. You wanna run five miles every day in order to avoid trying to pay for medicine without insurance? Try doing it at 250 pounds.
Having diabetes sucks, and it can kill you. It killed my Grandad.
320
The bottom line: whether or not someone is fat is NO ONE ELSE'S FUCKING BUSINESS. It doesn't mean the subject of SOCIETAL obesity should be off the table, but individual obesity is NOT YOUR PROBLEM. MYOFB.
That being said, if you wanted a real equivalency to show the speciousness of the rationale being used to try to ban gay marriage (health issues, life expectancy, the "ick" factor), a much better equivalent would have been old people. Who has more health problems than old people (in general, not individuals)? Who has a shorter life expectancy? And c'mon, we all know the idea of old people having sex is gross - until you look in the mirror one day and realize that 50 is long behind you. So every argument they're trying to use to justify banning gay marriage can also be used to ban the marriage of old people.
That being said, if you wanted a real equivalency to show the speciousness of the rationale being used to try to ban gay marriage (health issues, life expectancy, the "ick" factor), a much better equivalent would have been old people. Who has more health problems than old people (in general, not individuals)? Who has a shorter life expectancy? And c'mon, we all know the idea of old people having sex is gross - until you look in the mirror one day and realize that 50 is long behind you. So every argument they're trying to use to justify banning gay marriage can also be used to ban the marriage of old people.
322
TheMisanthrope, could you please be so generous to share with us your occupation?
My guess is that being a writer is work in which thoughtlessness isn't necessarily a drag on quality. Like how Paul Haggis could win the oscar for screenplay 2 years in a row, but casually refuse to verify for himself any criticism against Scientology for over a generation.
You're someone slick enough to have tried denying you were a racist, then deliver a "ching-chong" response to me. Now you're going-on about Dan owning up to a bias. I'm wondering if you're something like a writer.
My guess is that being a writer is work in which thoughtlessness isn't necessarily a drag on quality. Like how Paul Haggis could win the oscar for screenplay 2 years in a row, but casually refuse to verify for himself any criticism against Scientology for over a generation.
You're someone slick enough to have tried denying you were a racist, then deliver a "ching-chong" response to me. Now you're going-on about Dan owning up to a bias. I'm wondering if you're something like a writer.
323
@318 - "But expecting everyone to overlook the inherent health risks and cost to society of the obesity epidemic is ridiculous."
I can't agree with that. I'm not saying, as a society, that we shouldn't encourage healthy habits, but that does not include societal shaming of individuals who don't meet our standards of "healthy" living, whether it's because they're fat, old, gay, drink, whatever. Encouraging healthy living is not the same thing as deciding, as a group, that we can treat a marginalized group like crap because we have made a unilateral decision that they're somehow costing us more money. A civilized society spreads the costs of all those people across everyone. No one costs more in health dollars than the elderly. I recently had two nephews born prematurely, and they spent more than three months in the newborn ICU. Want to talk about what THEY cost society?
My point is that we cannot extrapolate from the general "cost to society" of any group in general to stigmatizing an individual who is in that group. EVERYONE has some habit that costs society money, whether it's driving without a seatbelt, drinking too much alcohol, commuting on too little sleep, practicing high-risk sports, being obese, being old, unsafe sex, whatever. We're all in this together.
I can't agree with that. I'm not saying, as a society, that we shouldn't encourage healthy habits, but that does not include societal shaming of individuals who don't meet our standards of "healthy" living, whether it's because they're fat, old, gay, drink, whatever. Encouraging healthy living is not the same thing as deciding, as a group, that we can treat a marginalized group like crap because we have made a unilateral decision that they're somehow costing us more money. A civilized society spreads the costs of all those people across everyone. No one costs more in health dollars than the elderly. I recently had two nephews born prematurely, and they spent more than three months in the newborn ICU. Want to talk about what THEY cost society?
My point is that we cannot extrapolate from the general "cost to society" of any group in general to stigmatizing an individual who is in that group. EVERYONE has some habit that costs society money, whether it's driving without a seatbelt, drinking too much alcohol, commuting on too little sleep, practicing high-risk sports, being obese, being old, unsafe sex, whatever. We're all in this together.
324
Dan, you're a dick. And that's okay. We usually like it when you're a dick, because you're being a dick to the people that we think should be treated dickishly. But sometimes you use your dickish powers in ways that we don't agree with. And that's cool too, it's your blog. You have the right (nay the duty) to be a dick in any way you see fit. And we'll just read you and either laugh or say, hey that guy's a dick!
325
Q: If she isn’t ashamed of her body then why would anything anyone said be “hurtful”?
A: Because she is ashamed of her body.
A: Because she is ashamed of her body.
326
I wonder how many people willing to shout Misogyny, or bigot have actually listened to a real scope of Dan's podcasts. He gets paid for the snark, and he pulls it out and aims it any everyone because that's part of what he's paid for--to be entertaining. But what makes people really appreciate his adice is that he really really advocates for all sorts of people. MY GOD he is a huge an ardent advocate for women not being ashamed of their bodies and their desires and he calls sexist bullshit where others don't even see it. He can turn the snark on so we all click our tongues (or laugh), and then he gets a caller on the line and turns into the kindest listener who oozes caring. Dan's one of those guys who if you really listen to you actually believe more of the caring than the snark. So I don't agree with him a lot of the time., SOmetimes I say tomayself he's being a bastard today. But I gotta tell you he sure has convinced me that he profoundly cares about people. People who say he hates women aren't looking past their own noses. Same for people who say he is bigoted. In my opinion.
328
@ 320 - It wouldn't have been a much better equivalent. It would just have been an equivalent. And then he would have been accused of ageism, as 321 said.
No matter what example he picked, those who don't get sarcasm (which, amazingly enough considering her reviews, apparently include Lindy West!!!) would have come down on him. He chose the most absurd example - since a majority of Americans have a weight problem, banning fat marriage is an obviously ridiculous proposition - and still, hundreds of people are hassling him for it.
This whole debate tells us nothing about Dan, but it tells us an awful lot about the immaturity of the FAs who comment here, their total lack of personal responsibility, the total lack of capacity of many a slogger to understand sarcasm, and their generally unrestrained political correctness.
Not discussing such a massive health problem (no bad pun intended) for the sake of protecting some people's feelings is NOT a sign of sensitivity, it's a sign of stupidity. And it's very dangerous for the health of Americans as a nation and as individuals.
Dan's words (or mine, for that matter) cannot be construed as a call to take away anyone's right to be whatever way he or she wishes to be as an individual. But if you want to be an individual, you should have enough maturity to take responsibility for everything that you are and everything that you did.
No matter what example he picked, those who don't get sarcasm (which, amazingly enough considering her reviews, apparently include Lindy West!!!) would have come down on him. He chose the most absurd example - since a majority of Americans have a weight problem, banning fat marriage is an obviously ridiculous proposition - and still, hundreds of people are hassling him for it.
This whole debate tells us nothing about Dan, but it tells us an awful lot about the immaturity of the FAs who comment here, their total lack of personal responsibility, the total lack of capacity of many a slogger to understand sarcasm, and their generally unrestrained political correctness.
Not discussing such a massive health problem (no bad pun intended) for the sake of protecting some people's feelings is NOT a sign of sensitivity, it's a sign of stupidity. And it's very dangerous for the health of Americans as a nation and as individuals.
Dan's words (or mine, for that matter) cannot be construed as a call to take away anyone's right to be whatever way he or she wishes to be as an individual. But if you want to be an individual, you should have enough maturity to take responsibility for everything that you are and everything that you did.
329
Dan: I believe you. I don't read vitriol into your intentions. But some people are hypersensitive (read: a tad irrational but not to be dismissed) because they feel like they get it from both barrels all the time. I know you know what that's like. I know it's annoying, but you might consider making more of the disclaimers I love to hear you make when you talk about being fat. You know, like when you say something like "angry bisexuals (not that I'm saying all bisexuals are angry -- just these particular bisexuals)" or something of the sort. It makes it clear that you mean no shame towards people, is funny, and draws attention to the fact that people don't necessarily need to be up in arms about everything all the time (which is helpful in this world of black-and-white statements).
Now, I may catch hell for this and I am an anecdote not a study, but it seems to me that people who are overweight tend to be slightly more depressed than people who are thinner. I don't think this is just because of being made fun of or seeing thin people on TV all the time. I think it is biochemical. Extra fat can mess with some people's hormones, which can make people depressed the same way that being on birth control can make some women depressed. Also, if you are less inclined to exercise, which correlates somewhat with having extra fat, then that can make you depressed too. I've been there and it sucks. Depressed people internalize everything and are oversensitive to criticism because any criticism sucks them back down that hole. It's a chicken-and-egg thing (which came first, the depression or the weight?) and it's not for all people who have extra weight, but it is for many. I don't have much of a point besides that I think this is what causes the minefield in the first place. And that I wish people would try to fix the depression and not specifically the weight. That alone will make you healthy and happy, and that makes everyone a joy to be around.
More...
Now, I may catch hell for this and I am an anecdote not a study, but it seems to me that people who are overweight tend to be slightly more depressed than people who are thinner. I don't think this is just because of being made fun of or seeing thin people on TV all the time. I think it is biochemical. Extra fat can mess with some people's hormones, which can make people depressed the same way that being on birth control can make some women depressed. Also, if you are less inclined to exercise, which correlates somewhat with having extra fat, then that can make you depressed too. I've been there and it sucks. Depressed people internalize everything and are oversensitive to criticism because any criticism sucks them back down that hole. It's a chicken-and-egg thing (which came first, the depression or the weight?) and it's not for all people who have extra weight, but it is for many. I don't have much of a point besides that I think this is what causes the minefield in the first place. And that I wish people would try to fix the depression and not specifically the weight. That alone will make you healthy and happy, and that makes everyone a joy to be around.
330
I'd be curious to know how many of the people who are offended by Dan are overweight and have shame issues about it. Because some people seem to be taking it awfully personal.
331
Do you folks really think Dan is a mean guy?
This argument has made me so hungry for a burger and fries.
This argument has made me so hungry for a burger and fries.
332
@323 I'm not advocating shaming people who are overweight, but there seems to be an implication in some comments that blogging about or posting links to studies or reports relating to obesity is a no-no because it incites shame. I don't agree that those news item should be off the agenda because they make some people feel bad. I wasn't suggesting that it's okay to point out people in the street and call them fat pigs.
333
@330 - I'm not over weight, but still could see that Dan is fat-phobic when he posted this picture from July 2009. What other reason than to be disgusted by what he saw, would possess him to lead with this picture?
http://www.thestranger.com/slog/archives…
http://www.thestranger.com/slog/archives…
334
Dan, you’re misrepresenting what Lindy said. She didn’t call you a bigot and she didn’t say you HATE fat people. She said you stigmatize and shame them (BTW saying you couldn’t possibly hate fat people because you shared your newspaper with one? Not a good look). She provided links, per your request, that illustrate pretty clearly what she was talking about. Regardless of context, “Fat Ass” is neither nice nor helpful, and acknowledging that something is nearly bullying when it is in fact, clearly bullying, and then posting it anyway, doesn’t let you off the hook. However good your intentions may be, they get lost underneath your harsh, condescending tone.
I’ve never had to struggle with my weight, but a lot of the comments on Lindy’s posts reminded me of the kinds of comments I read on conservative blogs when gay issues are discussed and it struck a nerve with me. People like to claim there is a moral righteousness to their outrage, and they refuse to stand down because it’s just so unhealthy, but you can tell by the tenor of their words, they can barely contain their disgust. I see a lot of that in your fat commentary as well. Contributing more shame to people who have to endure the disgust of others every time they leave the house doesn’t help anyone. It’s entirely possible to discuss these matters without using language that is hurtful and ultimately distracts people from your message.
I’ve never had to struggle with my weight, but a lot of the comments on Lindy’s posts reminded me of the kinds of comments I read on conservative blogs when gay issues are discussed and it struck a nerve with me. People like to claim there is a moral righteousness to their outrage, and they refuse to stand down because it’s just so unhealthy, but you can tell by the tenor of their words, they can barely contain their disgust. I see a lot of that in your fat commentary as well. Contributing more shame to people who have to endure the disgust of others every time they leave the house doesn’t help anyone. It’s entirely possible to discuss these matters without using language that is hurtful and ultimately distracts people from your message.
335
Dan:
You don't understand the FA movement, and attribute thoughts, inclination and goals to it, that are not there. Read some more about it. Read studies about dieting. Read about HAES. Listen to some podcasts from two whole cakes. Then come back with an education opinion.
You don't understand the FA movement, and attribute thoughts, inclination and goals to it, that are not there. Read some more about it. Read studies about dieting. Read about HAES. Listen to some podcasts from two whole cakes. Then come back with an education opinion.
336
Kim:
You'll be in my prayers. I don't offer to pray for people (especially virtual strangers) often, but you seem to be a slogger who won't mind me praying for you. And you've been a slogger that's consistently increased the sense of community around here, for me.
You'll be in my prayers. I don't offer to pray for people (especially virtual strangers) often, but you seem to be a slogger who won't mind me praying for you. And you've been a slogger that's consistently increased the sense of community around here, for me.
337
@315
Right. So at best you can scrutinize with the semantics of what he said (he should have made it clear that he was talking about his opinion or an opinion common in culture, instead of "fact").
But insofar as advice mingles facts and values, he's bound to speak on the intersection of both. And his comment wasn't problematic in context. Agree?
Right. So at best you can scrutinize with the semantics of what he said (he should have made it clear that he was talking about his opinion or an opinion common in culture, instead of "fact").
But insofar as advice mingles facts and values, he's bound to speak on the intersection of both. And his comment wasn't problematic in context. Agree?
338
@Misanthrope: I'm not avoiding, I just don't see it as a bias. He doesn't personally want to look at naked women, that doesn't mean he's biased against women in general. He doesn't want his husband to be overweight, he's not against/hateful toward heavy people in general. I think people add "personal preference" to "concerns in general" and get "bias", but I think that's a stretch.
340
I don't understand the opinion that because someone makes an unhealthy choice you therefore have the right to be an obnoxious, self righteous, judgmental dick to them.
343
It is so hilarious how all the sensitive white libtard "progressives" at Slog often resort to their favorite meme about red-staters, flyover-staters, Christians, and conservatives: that they are all a bunch of stupid fatasses.
344
To everybody saying Dan's a bigot or needs to tone it down: FUCK YOU!! This whole discussion is ridiculous. Lindy West is whiny, insecure, finger pointing, jerk. It's great that she claims that she has accepted herself, but from her defensiveness, I would say she's lying to herself.
Dan is blunt and honest about how he feels, and he always has been. This is why I love him and why I thought everybody did! He's clearly not a bigot. I'm sorry that people who perceive themselves as overweight are offended, but he offends a lot of people. I personally get slightly annoyed about his seemingly anti-monogamy discussions and then I stop and think about it and realize it's just my own insecurities coming into play (I know, crazy, self introspection). You guys really want to start censoring him? Really? His lack of censorship is why we love him, go read other sex advice columnists that tip toe around every issue and are so politically correct they forget to take into account reality. That's the majority of them, so it shouldn't be hard. Seriously, go the fuck away. Enjoy people lying to you your whole lives and enjoy your denial about yourselves.
Please Dan, never apologize. This country has just become so politically correct, they get offended about anything and take everything personally even though it wasn't directed a them. This is when the left acts most like the right, when it comes to political correctness.
Dan is blunt and honest about how he feels, and he always has been. This is why I love him and why I thought everybody did! He's clearly not a bigot. I'm sorry that people who perceive themselves as overweight are offended, but he offends a lot of people. I personally get slightly annoyed about his seemingly anti-monogamy discussions and then I stop and think about it and realize it's just my own insecurities coming into play (I know, crazy, self introspection). You guys really want to start censoring him? Really? His lack of censorship is why we love him, go read other sex advice columnists that tip toe around every issue and are so politically correct they forget to take into account reality. That's the majority of them, so it shouldn't be hard. Seriously, go the fuck away. Enjoy people lying to you your whole lives and enjoy your denial about yourselves.
Please Dan, never apologize. This country has just become so politically correct, they get offended about anything and take everything personally even though it wasn't directed a them. This is when the left acts most like the right, when it comes to political correctness.
345
I actually buy your explanation, Dan. I don't think that the sum total of your writing reveals intentional malice that reveals an underlying hatred of overweight people.
I do think, however, that when you've used the word "fat" as a lazy short-hand for "ignorant", "lazy", "Middle-American", etc. as you did in the Iowa column, you might consider how it could be similar to when someone shouts, "Fag!" at the kid who doesn't throw the ball very well on the playground. Words are words, but just sayin'...
I do think, however, that when you've used the word "fat" as a lazy short-hand for "ignorant", "lazy", "Middle-American", etc. as you did in the Iowa column, you might consider how it could be similar to when someone shouts, "Fag!" at the kid who doesn't throw the ball very well on the playground. Words are words, but just sayin'...
346
I think there's a bunch of interesting stuff to say about fat and class, about who has access to decent produce and information about food, about food standards and how the political machinations of food manufacturers drive the discourse around food standards, but honestly I don't tend to hear it from Dan. What I hear from Dan, because he's a sex columnist, is stuff about bodies, and the stuff Dan says about fat people's bodies is tinged with disgust. If a bunch of fat people say that to you, you might want to listen.
Behaving respectfully towards fat people doesn't mean kowtowing to the evil lies that food manufacturers promote. It just means treating people equally, not just in the workplace, but in terms of the language and attitudes you use. I doubt times one billion that Dan would put up with being employed by someone who treated him with politeness and respect in person, but wrote columns about how being gay was unhealthy, disgusting, etc.
Yes, fatphobia is hate speech; yes, it matters what fat people think of how you write about them; yes, this is a bunch of wounded privilege denial. Man up, Dan. Next stop: biphobia. Anyone on-staff want to run with that?
Behaving respectfully towards fat people doesn't mean kowtowing to the evil lies that food manufacturers promote. It just means treating people equally, not just in the workplace, but in terms of the language and attitudes you use. I doubt times one billion that Dan would put up with being employed by someone who treated him with politeness and respect in person, but wrote columns about how being gay was unhealthy, disgusting, etc.
Yes, fatphobia is hate speech; yes, it matters what fat people think of how you write about them; yes, this is a bunch of wounded privilege denial. Man up, Dan. Next stop: biphobia. Anyone on-staff want to run with that?
347
a. dan's original post about iowa didn't warrant lindy's response, no. he was making an analogy, and then SHE asked him, if he's going to equate "gay" and "fat" as stigmatizations, then does that mean he's going to quit stigmatizing fat people. so, yes, she "missed the point" of dan's post; she was making a separate but related point, and her subsequent post illustrated it more keenly. it's also easily imagined that she's observed dan's historic unease toward fat people, as we all have, and that's what fueled her "hello, i am fat" post.
(which, sorry, everyone in the universe has noticed, dan. the jig is up. go ahead and cry that you"re "just interested" in the obesity epidemic, but you sure are smug for being an innocent empirical student.)
b. i don't know that lindy was ever bragging about courageously standing up to her mean old oppressive boss--it seems to me that she just wanted to make the "you are the boss of me but not the doctor of me" joke. which was a quality fucking joke. worth it. also, dan is ssssort of her boss, and it stands to reason that he was probably her boss at one point over the years. regardless, i think folks have zeroed in on that line and attached more melodrama to it than she intended. which i guess is her ass--she's the one who said it--but i think it's probably safe to chill on that tip, kids.
c. i'm a former intern and freelancer, and i can corroborate that dan has always been unfailingly polite to me in person. he is not this way in his column, however--he often sacrifices kindness toward fellow humans for jokes/sensationalism/snark. which, hey, that's what sells his column, he's a businessman, it gets clicks, i understand. but he should understand that his readers aren't privileged to his in-person demeanor; all they know is what they read on the SLOG and in his column. and he's a total bitch a lot of the time.
d. WHY DO YOU CARE ABOUT THE HEALTH OF FAT PEOPLE, DAN. WHY WHY WHY. why? what makes you so deeply concerned about a group you don't belong to, so much that you find it's your place to lecture them? if someone writes you a letter saying, "i am fat and having XYZ sexual problems because of it," fine, you can care then. but i seriously doubt this happens on the reg, if ever. does it? i think you get more letters saying, "i gained weight and my partner isn't into my body anymore," et al, which has zero to do with their health. yes, obesity promotes health issues, absolutely, unquestionably, but it doesn't necessarily, and it's also totally off the table here, with regard to lindy and iowa. nobody asked you to worry about their health. you're doing it out of your own volition and acting like it's your job. and frankly, i seriously doubt that you sincerely care--i think it's a bullshit excuse to justify your thinly (and sometimes not-at-all) veiled disgust.
e. the overall nucleus of this shitstorm that you seem to be ignoring in order to save face here--and which is often ignored in the sport of Arguing on the Internet--is that these are human beings with feelings. so, yes, shut up. that's exactly right. leave them alone. their health risks and their muffin tops are not hurting you. people are overweight for a million different reasons--first and foremost because they're unhappy with their lives and they eat to comfort themselves--so have some fucking compassion and be kind to unhappy people, for godsake. whether they gained weight because they were unhappy or whether they've always been heavy and the vicious, superficial jackals of the world have made them unhappy, they're by and large already unhappy. and if they're not, leave them alone because they're happy and they fucking deserve to be, because they're human beings. they're not statistics, they're not cartoons. they're people, for christ's sake. what is wrong with you.
P.S.: ams_ has it at #35. thank you.
More...
(which, sorry, everyone in the universe has noticed, dan. the jig is up. go ahead and cry that you"re "just interested" in the obesity epidemic, but you sure are smug for being an innocent empirical student.)
b. i don't know that lindy was ever bragging about courageously standing up to her mean old oppressive boss--it seems to me that she just wanted to make the "you are the boss of me but not the doctor of me" joke. which was a quality fucking joke. worth it. also, dan is ssssort of her boss, and it stands to reason that he was probably her boss at one point over the years. regardless, i think folks have zeroed in on that line and attached more melodrama to it than she intended. which i guess is her ass--she's the one who said it--but i think it's probably safe to chill on that tip, kids.
c. i'm a former intern and freelancer, and i can corroborate that dan has always been unfailingly polite to me in person. he is not this way in his column, however--he often sacrifices kindness toward fellow humans for jokes/sensationalism/snark. which, hey, that's what sells his column, he's a businessman, it gets clicks, i understand. but he should understand that his readers aren't privileged to his in-person demeanor; all they know is what they read on the SLOG and in his column. and he's a total bitch a lot of the time.
d. WHY DO YOU CARE ABOUT THE HEALTH OF FAT PEOPLE, DAN. WHY WHY WHY. why? what makes you so deeply concerned about a group you don't belong to, so much that you find it's your place to lecture them? if someone writes you a letter saying, "i am fat and having XYZ sexual problems because of it," fine, you can care then. but i seriously doubt this happens on the reg, if ever. does it? i think you get more letters saying, "i gained weight and my partner isn't into my body anymore," et al, which has zero to do with their health. yes, obesity promotes health issues, absolutely, unquestionably, but it doesn't necessarily, and it's also totally off the table here, with regard to lindy and iowa. nobody asked you to worry about their health. you're doing it out of your own volition and acting like it's your job. and frankly, i seriously doubt that you sincerely care--i think it's a bullshit excuse to justify your thinly (and sometimes not-at-all) veiled disgust.
e. the overall nucleus of this shitstorm that you seem to be ignoring in order to save face here--and which is often ignored in the sport of Arguing on the Internet--is that these are human beings with feelings. so, yes, shut up. that's exactly right. leave them alone. their health risks and their muffin tops are not hurting you. people are overweight for a million different reasons--first and foremost because they're unhappy with their lives and they eat to comfort themselves--so have some fucking compassion and be kind to unhappy people, for godsake. whether they gained weight because they were unhappy or whether they've always been heavy and the vicious, superficial jackals of the world have made them unhappy, they're by and large already unhappy. and if they're not, leave them alone because they're happy and they fucking deserve to be, because they're human beings. they're not statistics, they're not cartoons. they're people, for christ's sake. what is wrong with you.
P.S.: ams_ has it at #35. thank you.
348
Actually it's been proven that morbidly obese (or even significantly overweight) people have trouble absorbing Vitamin D and are deficient in it.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20850…
What happens when you are vitamin D deficient?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth…
There are also links between not getting enough vitamin d and being depressed.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/376918…
As it says in the last article, yes, obviously research is still needed, however it is a really interesting theory.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20850…
What happens when you are vitamin D deficient?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth…
There are also links between not getting enough vitamin d and being depressed.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/376918…
As it says in the last article, yes, obviously research is still needed, however it is a really interesting theory.
350
oops, i meant to say ". yes, obesity promotes health issues, absolutely, unquestionably, but it doesn't necessarily CAUSE THEM, and it's also totally off the table here, with regard to lindy and iowa."
meaning: being obese definitely increases your risk of health issues, but you don't necessarily have them just because you're obese.
meaning: being obese definitely increases your risk of health issues, but you don't necessarily have them just because you're obese.
351
Oh, I suppose I should add a comment here since I added one on Lindy's post.
In my view, Lindy wrote a post that was mainly about pain, but Dan read a post that was mainly about Dan.
To me, Dan is a powerful person and thinker and an inspiration. I'd love to see him be kinder when he talks about fat people. Michelle Obama is a perfect examplar: She is a problem-solver, acknowledging and working on the problem of obesity without stigmatizing obese humans.
I can't bring myself, like Dan, to regret Lindy's post. In fact, the idea of it *not* existing upsets me. Lindy's post helps hundreds of people simply feel better. It singlehandedly delivers health benefits. At the moment those health benefits are not being shared by Dan Savage. But they could be -- because nobody's actually demonizing anybody here.
In my view, Lindy wrote a post that was mainly about pain, but Dan read a post that was mainly about Dan.
To me, Dan is a powerful person and thinker and an inspiration. I'd love to see him be kinder when he talks about fat people. Michelle Obama is a perfect examplar: She is a problem-solver, acknowledging and working on the problem of obesity without stigmatizing obese humans.
I can't bring myself, like Dan, to regret Lindy's post. In fact, the idea of it *not* existing upsets me. Lindy's post helps hundreds of people simply feel better. It singlehandedly delivers health benefits. At the moment those health benefits are not being shared by Dan Savage. But they could be -- because nobody's actually demonizing anybody here.
353
From the comments I've read, no one's arguing that obesity is free of health risks. No one's saying the health risks should never be discussed. It's the attitude that often comes with it.
I smoke. I've had plenty of people remind me that it's unhealthy. I've had plenty of people tell me it's a disgusting habit (I agree). I've never been called disgusting because of it. People don't shout out "Smoker!" from their cars when they're driving by. Last I heard, grade school kids don't use "you're momma's a smoker!" as a taunt.
There are a helluva lot of unhealthy behaviors in the world, but most of them don't come with the same stigma. I have a poor diet. Not sweets or chips, but lots of nutritionally-impaired t.v. dinners (maybe a notch above Styrofoam slathered in gravy). But no one has ever looked into my cart and said, "you shouldn't be eating that crap." In fact, no stranger has ever given me any sort of unsolicited dietary advice while we're waiting in the grocery store line. And yet people who are obese sometimes do receive that sort of treatment, frequently prefaced with "I'm only concerned about your health."
I smoke. I've had plenty of people remind me that it's unhealthy. I've had plenty of people tell me it's a disgusting habit (I agree). I've never been called disgusting because of it. People don't shout out "Smoker!" from their cars when they're driving by. Last I heard, grade school kids don't use "you're momma's a smoker!" as a taunt.
There are a helluva lot of unhealthy behaviors in the world, but most of them don't come with the same stigma. I have a poor diet. Not sweets or chips, but lots of nutritionally-impaired t.v. dinners (maybe a notch above Styrofoam slathered in gravy). But no one has ever looked into my cart and said, "you shouldn't be eating that crap." In fact, no stranger has ever given me any sort of unsolicited dietary advice while we're waiting in the grocery store line. And yet people who are obese sometimes do receive that sort of treatment, frequently prefaced with "I'm only concerned about your health."
354
You go Dan!
There's nothing wrong with having an opinion and stating fact. some people just can't stand the truth.
By the way, "trying and failing" doesn't mean "saying you'll go on a diet but not doing it and saying you'll go to the gym and not going." It means "going on a diet and going to the gym and not seeing any improvements."
There's nothing wrong with having an opinion and stating fact. some people just can't stand the truth.
By the way, "trying and failing" doesn't mean "saying you'll go on a diet but not doing it and saying you'll go to the gym and not going." It means "going on a diet and going to the gym and not seeing any improvements."
355
@344, you forgot to call Lindy "a bitch." I think that's the term the Dan Fans prefer here.
"Never apologize!" is a stunted way to live your life. I hope you weren't serious.
"Never apologize!" is a stunted way to live your life. I hope you weren't serious.
356
I had a lot to say about this before Dan's comment, and all I can say is that he's hit the nail on the head. Lindy is either stupid (doesn't understand a reductio ad absurdum argument) or evil (she knows the difference but doestn' care--she's trying to impugn Dan's reputation just the same). I wrote a blog post on the topic at: http://thinking-it-through.tumblr.com/
357
I agree with Dan. I admire Lindy, but I found her post to be oversensitive.
Of course, I recognize that like many other formerly "fat" people, I found that my weight was something I could change and control with a bit of effort and lifestyle changes. I don't have the experience of having struggled for years to loose weight and just not managed it. To me, what he says about obesity and loosing weight just makes sense.
Of course, I recognize that like many other formerly "fat" people, I found that my weight was something I could change and control with a bit of effort and lifestyle changes. I don't have the experience of having struggled for years to loose weight and just not managed it. To me, what he says about obesity and loosing weight just makes sense.
358
Dan, I for one think you are 100% in the right here with regard to your defense of your comments and opinion that Lindy, though a smart women and someone you generally like, is perhaps being a bit touchy about this one subject only. She works at the Stranger - it's like being Jewish writer on South Park bashing everyone and having a blast and then quitting the moment Jews are the butt. Lindy needs to chill out and apologize for jumping the gun and doing something so unprofessional as to attack your coworker in a public forum and catch him by surprise (I'm sorry... WTF?!). He did a pretty good job defending himself (which he CLEARLY had no other choice but to do) while trying to be respectful of Lindy and her post (and her OBVIOUS issues with obesity) and I for one think he deserves accolades, not condemnation.
--Longtime reader
--Longtime reader
359
Dan, I for one think you are 100% in the right here with regard to your defense of your comments and opinion that Lindy, though a smart women and someone you generally like, is perhaps being a bit touchy about this one subject only. She works at the Stranger - it's like being Jewish writer on South Park bashing everyone and having a blast and then quitting the moment Jews are the butt. Lindy needs to chill out and apologize for jumping the gun and doing something so unprofessional as to attack your coworker in a public forum and catch him by surprise (I'm sorry... WTF?!). He did a pretty good job defending himself (which he CLEARLY had no other choice but to do) while trying to be respectful of Lindy and her post (and her OBVIOUS issues with obesity) and I for one think he deserves accolades, not condemnation.
--Longtime reader
--Longtime reader
360
I adore Lindy West and what she has added to the Stranger's writing pool. I adore Dan Savage and how he has shaped our community as editor of the Stranger.
I appreciate her post because I identified with it and that's a good thing. It made me smile. Job done. Also, it was a different point of view on the SLOG than I used to (and I read this darn thing every day). I intended to post originally that I appreciate Dan for his "stir the pot" posts to the slog on many topics, weight being one of them. Isn't that what he should be doing? Making us think and argue? But, as an important figure in our community, I adore him and I fear him. I fear that he will show up to a burlesque show I am in and write about it and how my body is not fun to watch (even if it was). I fear he will attend a roller derby bout and write about the girls and how their bodies and say nothing about the event or the sport. But I know these are just fears; they are my imagination. I know I am not that important or that Dan doesn't really dislike me or my art or my favorite sport. But somehow, over the years, I got the impression that I would rather have anyone BUT Dan comment on these things if they pertain to me or people I know. It may not be true but the impression I built over the years is that, should we ever meet, Dan would disregard me for my size. And it was nice to hear someone who works with him sorta felt the same way.
I appreciate her post because I identified with it and that's a good thing. It made me smile. Job done. Also, it was a different point of view on the SLOG than I used to (and I read this darn thing every day). I intended to post originally that I appreciate Dan for his "stir the pot" posts to the slog on many topics, weight being one of them. Isn't that what he should be doing? Making us think and argue? But, as an important figure in our community, I adore him and I fear him. I fear that he will show up to a burlesque show I am in and write about it and how my body is not fun to watch (even if it was). I fear he will attend a roller derby bout and write about the girls and how their bodies and say nothing about the event or the sport. But I know these are just fears; they are my imagination. I know I am not that important or that Dan doesn't really dislike me or my art or my favorite sport. But somehow, over the years, I got the impression that I would rather have anyone BUT Dan comment on these things if they pertain to me or people I know. It may not be true but the impression I built over the years is that, should we ever meet, Dan would disregard me for my size. And it was nice to hear someone who works with him sorta felt the same way.
361
@355, no I don't think he should have to apologize. He didn't say anything wrong, and like I said he offends a lot of people. If you don't like it, go away.
I do apologize about being mean to Lindy, but I had just finished reading the posts and I was pissed. I just hate people not taking personal accoutantability for their actions and blaming someone else for their problems with themselves. I also hate that her inability to think about the post and previous comments of Dan critically made everybosy hate on Dan. There were people saying he should step down!! Really, because a sarcastic woman who should have great reading comprehension takes offense? She offends people all the time as well. Thinking you're overweight or being overweight doesn't give you a right to censor people. People need to get over themselves.
I do apologize about being mean to Lindy, but I had just finished reading the posts and I was pissed. I just hate people not taking personal accoutantability for their actions and blaming someone else for their problems with themselves. I also hate that her inability to think about the post and previous comments of Dan critically made everybosy hate on Dan. There were people saying he should step down!! Really, because a sarcastic woman who should have great reading comprehension takes offense? She offends people all the time as well. Thinking you're overweight or being overweight doesn't give you a right to censor people. People need to get over themselves.
362
@hydroza: Just curious, does your admonition that Dan be "kind to unhappy people" apply to everyone, or just those who are offended when he posts something about weight? Because if it applies to everyone, I'm thinking he may have to cancel the Savage Love column.
363
Whoa. Somebody spelled "voila" correctly in an email. I don't want to tell you how many times I've seen people write "wa-laa", and how I've longed to cry over it. Seriously, that made my day.
364
@canuck: yes. he should not ridicule people out of the blue sky for their failings. it's totally needless. there are kind ways to give advice, and there are ways to be funny without shaming miserable people. i personally dislike children, like a whole lot, but i don't go around kicking little kids in the face.
is this news? 'cos i feel like this is pretty basic shit.
-hydrozOa
is this news? 'cos i feel like this is pretty basic shit.
-hydrozOa
365
@291: I know. Like how sad it was for Bush when Kanye said he didn't care about black people. When there are accusations of bigotry, the most important thing is definitely how attacked the alleged bigot feels. Really, that should just stop all conversation, don't you think?
366
@361 said: "I just hate people not taking personal accoutantability for their actions and blaming someone else for their problems with themselves."
Dan is being blamed not for making anyone fat, but for allowing his disgust to seep through consistently when discussing fat people. Fat people are already self-conscious, ashamed, and attempting to deal with their weight. Pointing out the laws of thermodynamics is asinine and unhelpful, if indeed you or Dan intend to be supportive.
Dan thinks being overweight is a huge moral failing--I get it. You're both skinny and thus better than others. But Jared Diamond would spank you for such a lack of analysis. What's really causing the global epidemic of obesity? Everyone suddenly lacks self-discipline? Is moralizing about it going to motivate anyone?
I don't really think anyone except those who've struggled with obesity actually know what they're talking about here. Most of you just want to use this issue as a way to make yourself feel superior to those with weight problems.
Dan is being blamed not for making anyone fat, but for allowing his disgust to seep through consistently when discussing fat people. Fat people are already self-conscious, ashamed, and attempting to deal with their weight. Pointing out the laws of thermodynamics is asinine and unhelpful, if indeed you or Dan intend to be supportive.
Dan thinks being overweight is a huge moral failing--I get it. You're both skinny and thus better than others. But Jared Diamond would spank you for such a lack of analysis. What's really causing the global epidemic of obesity? Everyone suddenly lacks self-discipline? Is moralizing about it going to motivate anyone?
I don't really think anyone except those who've struggled with obesity actually know what they're talking about here. Most of you just want to use this issue as a way to make yourself feel superior to those with weight problems.
367
Oh jeez, fat people, knock it off. I'm fat too - I'm 5'8" and 230 lbs - and I too have spent a lifetime doing the whole diet blah blah that women in our society do. And if someone like me wants you all to just calm the hell down and stop being so self righteous, then you know you need to hear it.
Lindy made a few good points, but her column wasn't some fat people manifesto. From the comments section, you'd have thought she'd died for our sins. For the record, I'm not ashamed of being the size I am, either. It's sure hard on my goddam knees, though, and I wish I had not gone on the three year binge that brought me here.
I'm never going to be a size two, but I sure as hell could be a size sixteen if I smartened up. Why should it be a sin to say so?
Lindy made a few good points, but her column wasn't some fat people manifesto. From the comments section, you'd have thought she'd died for our sins. For the record, I'm not ashamed of being the size I am, either. It's sure hard on my goddam knees, though, and I wish I had not gone on the three year binge that brought me here.
I'm never going to be a size two, but I sure as hell could be a size sixteen if I smartened up. Why should it be a sin to say so?
368
#357: "I don't have the experience of having struggled for years to loose (sic) weight and just not managed it. To me, what he says about obesity and loosing (sic) weight just makes sense."
To YOU. ExACTly. See, most fat people? In addition to already being ashamed? Have tried and tried to lose weight; have lost it and re-gained it. 95% of all successful dieters re-gain the weight back and MORE within five years. Do the fucking math, you fucking idiots, and understand that just because someone is fat doesn't mean you know ANYTHING else about how they eat, or how much they exercise. It's not a matter of "personal responsibility;" it's a matter of courtesy. Just because something is a certain way for YOU does not mean it is the same for EVERYONE. How is this difficult?
#346: "What I hear from Dan, because he's a sex columnist, is stuff about bodies, and the stuff Dan says about fat people's bodies is tinged with disgust. If a bunch of fat people say that to you, you might want to listen. "
Yes. This. LISTEN. Jesus.
To YOU. ExACTly. See, most fat people? In addition to already being ashamed? Have tried and tried to lose weight; have lost it and re-gained it. 95% of all successful dieters re-gain the weight back and MORE within five years. Do the fucking math, you fucking idiots, and understand that just because someone is fat doesn't mean you know ANYTHING else about how they eat, or how much they exercise. It's not a matter of "personal responsibility;" it's a matter of courtesy. Just because something is a certain way for YOU does not mean it is the same for EVERYONE. How is this difficult?
#346: "What I hear from Dan, because he's a sex columnist, is stuff about bodies, and the stuff Dan says about fat people's bodies is tinged with disgust. If a bunch of fat people say that to you, you might want to listen. "
Yes. This. LISTEN. Jesus.
369
A well-reasoned and constructed response.
LW seemed to be projecting and appears to have gone on the attack to justify some serious denial. I perceive Dan to be saying, "I don't give a shit if you are fat, but there's an awful lot of people in this country who are fat and an awful lot of consequences flow from that -- aesthetic, health, economic. Let's talk about that." Only some serious denial would lead a fat person to attack the soundness of Dan's contribution to the marketplace of ideas.
I come from a long line of seriously obese people, and as a former fatty myself, here's the deal: Don't eat like an idiot and exercise. No matter your weight, those to things make you healthier.
What really prompts me to comment, however, is that I cannot stand when people, as LW does in this case, attack the messenger, rather than the message. Nothing more transparent than the insecure arguing a position as a means to justify their denial in an attempt to resolve their cognitive dissonance. All of us have feet of clay, and arguing that you're perfect just the way you are and failing to acknowledge where you could use some work is a fool's errand, doomed from the start.
Thanks, Dan, and keep up the good work. Illegitimis non carborundum.
LW seemed to be projecting and appears to have gone on the attack to justify some serious denial. I perceive Dan to be saying, "I don't give a shit if you are fat, but there's an awful lot of people in this country who are fat and an awful lot of consequences flow from that -- aesthetic, health, economic. Let's talk about that." Only some serious denial would lead a fat person to attack the soundness of Dan's contribution to the marketplace of ideas.
I come from a long line of seriously obese people, and as a former fatty myself, here's the deal: Don't eat like an idiot and exercise. No matter your weight, those to things make you healthier.
What really prompts me to comment, however, is that I cannot stand when people, as LW does in this case, attack the messenger, rather than the message. Nothing more transparent than the insecure arguing a position as a means to justify their denial in an attempt to resolve their cognitive dissonance. All of us have feet of clay, and arguing that you're perfect just the way you are and failing to acknowledge where you could use some work is a fool's errand, doomed from the start.
Thanks, Dan, and keep up the good work. Illegitimis non carborundum.
371
Dan, I come here, read and enjoy posts about politics, sex, and urinals, and then out of nowhere, I'm assaulted by some fat-shaming bullshit. Maybe you know how that feels. You are watching a film, and out of nowhere a character does or says something homophobic. It's a painful shock to the system, and you try to let it roll over you, but you feel angry and ashamed anyway.
You say, I don't have to read it, but it's right there as I scroll through your posts. Fuck you and fuck your supposed concern about fat people's health. Whenever I read you complaining about fat people, I don't feel disgusted with them, I feel disgusted with you. I agree with your social and political commentary, but when it comes to fat people you are a dick, standing on imaginary moral high ground and looking down on people who are struggling. There would be a billion-dollar diet industry if people weren't *trying*.
You say, I don't have to read it, but it's right there as I scroll through your posts. Fuck you and fuck your supposed concern about fat people's health. Whenever I read you complaining about fat people, I don't feel disgusted with them, I feel disgusted with you. I agree with your social and political commentary, but when it comes to fat people you are a dick, standing on imaginary moral high ground and looking down on people who are struggling. There would be a billion-dollar diet industry if people weren't *trying*.
372
http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/35…
The epidemiology of overweight and obesity: public health crisis or moral panic?
The epidemiology of overweight and obesity: public health crisis or moral panic?
373
Dan, I have a hard time reading this blog. I come here, read and enjoy posts about politics, sex, and urinals, and then out of nowhere, I'm assaulted by some fat-shaming bullshit. You say, I don;t have to read it, but it's right there as I scroll through your posts. Fuck you and fuck your supposed concern about fat people's health. Your standing on your moral high ground of thinness and looking down on a lot of people who are struggling.
375
@myself, 364:
you know, i take that back. the kicking-kids-in-the-face thing is a bad analogy. i was barking up the "taking candy from a baby" tree, but it's not quite right. also, i shouldn't have said "ridiculing people for their failings," because being fat is only subjectively a failing.
i think the smoking analogy is pretty airtight. i have several close friends who smoke. i personally find it repulsive, but i'm not going to sit there and tell them about it. they know the health risks, and they don't enjoy being addicted to something that makes them sick. they fucking hate it. they smoke because they're because they're addicted to nicotine, and because they're stressed out about shit and it makes them feel better momentarily. they want to quit, but it's really fucking hard, and they don't know how.
i love my friends, and i don't want to make them even unhappier by bitching to them about how they're headed for early graves. that's not going to make them quit--it's just going to stress them out more--and unless i'm expected to live with them and/or kiss them, it's not ultimately any of my business.
yeah, i wish they would quit, and so do they, because they are not morons, so the best thing i can do is be supportive if and when they want to make a change. to hassle them about it is disrespectful and unkind. aka a total dick move.
you know, i take that back. the kicking-kids-in-the-face thing is a bad analogy. i was barking up the "taking candy from a baby" tree, but it's not quite right. also, i shouldn't have said "ridiculing people for their failings," because being fat is only subjectively a failing.
i think the smoking analogy is pretty airtight. i have several close friends who smoke. i personally find it repulsive, but i'm not going to sit there and tell them about it. they know the health risks, and they don't enjoy being addicted to something that makes them sick. they fucking hate it. they smoke because they're because they're addicted to nicotine, and because they're stressed out about shit and it makes them feel better momentarily. they want to quit, but it's really fucking hard, and they don't know how.
i love my friends, and i don't want to make them even unhappier by bitching to them about how they're headed for early graves. that's not going to make them quit--it's just going to stress them out more--and unless i'm expected to live with them and/or kiss them, it's not ultimately any of my business.
yeah, i wish they would quit, and so do they, because they are not morons, so the best thing i can do is be supportive if and when they want to make a change. to hassle them about it is disrespectful and unkind. aka a total dick move.
376
Well, this is so far down that no one is going to read it. But I just needed to say - GO DAN!
The reason your advice is so valuable is that it's never feel-good platitudes. You tell the truth, even when the truth is tough to hear for some people.
Myself, I'm not terribly skinny. But you know what? That's my decision. I've kinda balanced out the negative aspects of being not-so-fit and 'weighed' them against the misery of dieting. I feel that I'm at a happy medium, for me.
However, to deny that MORE people would find me attractive if I were thinner, or to deny that I would be healthier at a lower weight, or if I ate less, would be just that - denial.
However, I like food, and it's not like no one finds me attractive, so I'm fine with that. I don't need some "fat acceptance" person giving me some speech to puff me up, either. I take responsibility for myself and my own body.
So I've never found anything Dan has said to be insulting or shaming - because I'm not ashamed of myself. I don't mind hearing the truth.
The fact is, that societies are always going to find the unusual and exceptional attractive. When being plump was a rare sign of wealth and access to luxury, Rubenesque figures were considered attractive. Now that the average person is heavy, the exceptionally thin figure is considered to be attractive by many people. That's just the way it is, and if a person lets that make them depressed and unhappy - well, all I can say is, there's a lot more serious things out there in the world to get depressed about if you insist on being depressed.
The reason your advice is so valuable is that it's never feel-good platitudes. You tell the truth, even when the truth is tough to hear for some people.
Myself, I'm not terribly skinny. But you know what? That's my decision. I've kinda balanced out the negative aspects of being not-so-fit and 'weighed' them against the misery of dieting. I feel that I'm at a happy medium, for me.
However, to deny that MORE people would find me attractive if I were thinner, or to deny that I would be healthier at a lower weight, or if I ate less, would be just that - denial.
However, I like food, and it's not like no one finds me attractive, so I'm fine with that. I don't need some "fat acceptance" person giving me some speech to puff me up, either. I take responsibility for myself and my own body.
So I've never found anything Dan has said to be insulting or shaming - because I'm not ashamed of myself. I don't mind hearing the truth.
The fact is, that societies are always going to find the unusual and exceptional attractive. When being plump was a rare sign of wealth and access to luxury, Rubenesque figures were considered attractive. Now that the average person is heavy, the exceptionally thin figure is considered to be attractive by many people. That's just the way it is, and if a person lets that make them depressed and unhappy - well, all I can say is, there's a lot more serious things out there in the world to get depressed about if you insist on being depressed.
377
@351: In my view, Lindy wrote a post that was mainly about pain, but Dan read a post that was mainly about Dan.
Well said, Jen.
378
@ 376 - As far as I'm concerned, you're the model of fat acceptance - as it should be, not as it is defined nowadays by people who essentially don't accept themselves...
379
@372
Thank you!!! This is EXACTLY the sort of article I wish Dan would read and discuss if he wants to wade into the "obesity epidemic" discussion.
I personally am hoping to go to grad school for medical anthropology and specialize in this exact topic. "Obesity" is such a fascinating, complex issue; it's exactly the sort of topic medical anthropology was invented for. I wish more people would take the time to read these sort of articles, instead of ab nauseum repeating a one page pop-medical article they read in a fitness magazine.
Thank you!!! This is EXACTLY the sort of article I wish Dan would read and discuss if he wants to wade into the "obesity epidemic" discussion.
I personally am hoping to go to grad school for medical anthropology and specialize in this exact topic. "Obesity" is such a fascinating, complex issue; it's exactly the sort of topic medical anthropology was invented for. I wish more people would take the time to read these sort of articles, instead of ab nauseum repeating a one page pop-medical article they read in a fitness magazine.
380
@351, 377, many others: it is great that Lindy is overcoming her pain. However, it will be better when she can overcome her pain without attacking others; when she truly stops being defensive. This does not AT ALL negate the distance she's come so far, and indeed she is most of the way there. We all go through 'hater' phases when we come to terms with things we used not to like about ourselves; some feminists go through a man-hating phase, some fat people go through a skinny-people-hating phase, some people of color go through a white-people-hating phase, some gays through an opposite-gender- or straight-hating phase, etc. etc. And all the while, we tend to see some attacks that are not really attacks. Sometimes when we feel bad about something, it's because we over-interpret our own pain, not because someone was being cruel. Merely being reminded that you are overweight and that there are a couple of people out there who don't like overweight people (and disregarding the plethora of people who like overweight people or don't give a fuck) is not an attack. In time those reactions will fade, once you're more like 98% comfortable with yourself rather than 75%. I congratulate Lindy with how far she's come, and she's making a great stand; I hope her positive message will reach other people not happy with their appearance, but not the more negative one. Dan, sorry you are the straw man in all of this; it is a result of your fame and nothing more. Obama made a good quote to Bill O'Reiley recently, he said that people who attack you don't know you. That's where you are, unfortunately. But by all means keep qualifying your statements to the best of your ability so it's clear you don't hate fat people just because you don't find them attractive (as if you found any women attractive!!). You just have to keep reassuring people who are, as a group (though not all of them), insecure at this point and place in time.
More...
381
Yeah, 376, that's kinda my feeling, too - I don't find what Dan says to be fat-shaming, because I'm fat, and when I read it I'm not ashamed.
I know I'm fat, and I know why. I know that to some extent it's genetic, so why be ashamed of that, and to some extent it's because of my choices. My choices that I've made, and which I own - so why be ashamed of that?
Diet and exercise work differently for different people, sure. Lots of people are overweight at a level of diet and exercise that would have another person be normal. But NOBODY is *obese*, without making choices that put them there. So why not just own up to it, and stop hiding behind "society's messages"? You can say "Yeah, I'd rather eat pie than broccoli, and I'm willing to pay the price". Jeez, tell the truth and shame the devil.
I know I'm fat, and I know why. I know that to some extent it's genetic, so why be ashamed of that, and to some extent it's because of my choices. My choices that I've made, and which I own - so why be ashamed of that?
Diet and exercise work differently for different people, sure. Lots of people are overweight at a level of diet and exercise that would have another person be normal. But NOBODY is *obese*, without making choices that put them there. So why not just own up to it, and stop hiding behind "society's messages"? You can say "Yeah, I'd rather eat pie than broccoli, and I'm willing to pay the price". Jeez, tell the truth and shame the devil.
382
"Dan, I come here, read and enjoy posts about politics, sex, and urinals, and then out of nowhere, I'm assaulted by some fat-shaming bullshit."
--Um, he's not fat-shaming. He's linking to articles and studies about the obesity epidemic. If obesity "facts" and "studies" offends you than that's not Dan's fault. Sounds like you have a beef with reality.
"You are watching a film, and out of nowhere a character does or says something homophobic. It's a painful shock to the system, and you try to let it roll over you, but you feel angry and ashamed anyway."
--Irrelevant. Dan hasn't said anything that's...uh, lipid-phobic/fat-phobic, what have you. He's said it's unhealthy though...which is a fact...which is maybe something you're having an issue with?
"but when it comes to fat people you are a dick, standing on imaginary moral high ground and looking down on people who are struggling"
--How? Where in his posts does he ridicule fat people for trying?
"There would be a billion-dollar diet industry if people weren't *trying*."
--I'm going to guess that you meant "there wouldn't be a billion-dollar diet industry if people weren't 'trying'. Anyways, obviously this diet industry isn't the answer for America's obesity epidemic. People always looking for quick fixes, that magical pill, or that newly discovered plant from Africa or berry from Brazil to solve their weight problems instead of exercising and eating right. That's why the diet industry exists.
--Um, he's not fat-shaming. He's linking to articles and studies about the obesity epidemic. If obesity "facts" and "studies" offends you than that's not Dan's fault. Sounds like you have a beef with reality.
"You are watching a film, and out of nowhere a character does or says something homophobic. It's a painful shock to the system, and you try to let it roll over you, but you feel angry and ashamed anyway."
--Irrelevant. Dan hasn't said anything that's...uh, lipid-phobic/fat-phobic, what have you. He's said it's unhealthy though...which is a fact...which is maybe something you're having an issue with?
"but when it comes to fat people you are a dick, standing on imaginary moral high ground and looking down on people who are struggling"
--How? Where in his posts does he ridicule fat people for trying?
"There would be a billion-dollar diet industry if people weren't *trying*."
--I'm going to guess that you meant "there wouldn't be a billion-dollar diet industry if people weren't 'trying'. Anyways, obviously this diet industry isn't the answer for America's obesity epidemic. People always looking for quick fixes, that magical pill, or that newly discovered plant from Africa or berry from Brazil to solve their weight problems instead of exercising and eating right. That's why the diet industry exists.
383
You know, Lindy didn't misread your post. She understood that you were saying that it would be ridiculous to ban fat marriage, even though all the same arguments apply, and argued that this was a tacit admission that fat people face many of the same social stigmas that gay people do (although, of course, they are still allowed to marry). So, she reasoned, if you were admitting that, then did that mean you would stop saying things that she, as a fat person, finds hurtful?
Dan, I actually think you are mostly in the right here; in fact, your compassionate answers to readers with weight problems have actually made me feel better about myself, while also motivating me to work on my own weight problems and body issues. And I've never been offended by anything you've written. That being said, I can also see where Lindy is coming from. The issue isn't whether or not being obese is bad for you, it's that people feel the need to point this out constantly without even the slightest provocation. It's also not about whether or not eating right and exercising is all that most people need to do to get their weight off (because, yes, it often helps) -- it's that you assume that the person you're telling this to is one of those people who just hasn't tried it yet. (Fat acceptance people generalize this to "assuming that most fat people haven't tried it"; I think there's a problem here where there are many communities with people who have all tried it and failed, and many where people haven't tried it, and the former get upset when you conflate them with the latter.) Anyway, overall, yes, you are right, but the way you phrase it makes you come across as being really patronizing, and people resent being patronized and talked down to. (To preempt the inevitable answer to this, even though I don't think you'd actually argue this: yes, they *could* just not read your column or anything you write, but if they enjoy your column and otherwise think that you have a great attitude towards the whole controversy, is it really fair to tell them to just stop reading? Especially since your column is nominally about a completely different subject, and the rhetoric they object to tends to be thrown in without warning.)
One of the earlier commenters in this thread -- Canuck, I think? -- illustrates this patronizing attitude very well: she compares it (pointing out the health risks of being obese) to how she didn't let her kids drink soda, etc. Guess what, lady, when you do it to people who are not your kids, it doesn't matter how well-intentioned it is -- it boils down to the fact that you are, by your own admission, treating them like children. That dynamic is avoidable if it's someone you know *extremely* well and you choose your words carefully, but other than that, it's always going to come across badly.
Not that anyone will read this, since it's like the 400th comment and I'm unregistered and have a terrible parentheses fetish. But, no one else seemed to be saying it, so...yeah.
More...
Dan, I actually think you are mostly in the right here; in fact, your compassionate answers to readers with weight problems have actually made me feel better about myself, while also motivating me to work on my own weight problems and body issues. And I've never been offended by anything you've written. That being said, I can also see where Lindy is coming from. The issue isn't whether or not being obese is bad for you, it's that people feel the need to point this out constantly without even the slightest provocation. It's also not about whether or not eating right and exercising is all that most people need to do to get their weight off (because, yes, it often helps) -- it's that you assume that the person you're telling this to is one of those people who just hasn't tried it yet. (Fat acceptance people generalize this to "assuming that most fat people haven't tried it"; I think there's a problem here where there are many communities with people who have all tried it and failed, and many where people haven't tried it, and the former get upset when you conflate them with the latter.) Anyway, overall, yes, you are right, but the way you phrase it makes you come across as being really patronizing, and people resent being patronized and talked down to. (To preempt the inevitable answer to this, even though I don't think you'd actually argue this: yes, they *could* just not read your column or anything you write, but if they enjoy your column and otherwise think that you have a great attitude towards the whole controversy, is it really fair to tell them to just stop reading? Especially since your column is nominally about a completely different subject, and the rhetoric they object to tends to be thrown in without warning.)
One of the earlier commenters in this thread -- Canuck, I think? -- illustrates this patronizing attitude very well: she compares it (pointing out the health risks of being obese) to how she didn't let her kids drink soda, etc. Guess what, lady, when you do it to people who are not your kids, it doesn't matter how well-intentioned it is -- it boils down to the fact that you are, by your own admission, treating them like children. That dynamic is avoidable if it's someone you know *extremely* well and you choose your words carefully, but other than that, it's always going to come across badly.
Not that anyone will read this, since it's like the 400th comment and I'm unregistered and have a terrible parentheses fetish. But, no one else seemed to be saying it, so...yeah.
384
@ 372, 379 - I make a stopover in an American airport once or twice a year, and quite frankly, it's striking to me how many people I see there (proportionally) whose belly touches their knees - staff and travellers, so obviously not only poor people. I've visited around 30 countries, and that's unique to the States. The proportion of bearish types, i.e. big strong guys with a belly, is also unequalled in any country I know.
I spend most of my time in Mexico, the second country in the world in obesity statistics, and although you see a whole lot of roundish people, most of the (not very many) ones I've met who were seriously obese had spent many years in the States.
So maybe it's only the really fat people who are getting fatter, as this study seems to say, but any non-American who has eyes to see and money to travel (or who works in the tourist industry) would tell you the same thing: Americans are huge. In general. They may not be the only ones, but they are the hugest on average. I'd say this studies' data is lacking.
I had this short bearish friend from NY who was hot as hell at around 220 pounds. But then he ballooned by about 80-100 pounds in one year, and he looked like a black Michelin man. What was his reaction? He started bitching that the people from the countries he visited were abnormally thin. Until his doctor told him to lose the weight for health reasons, that is.
Denial didn't help his heart, losing weight did.
I spend most of my time in Mexico, the second country in the world in obesity statistics, and although you see a whole lot of roundish people, most of the (not very many) ones I've met who were seriously obese had spent many years in the States.
So maybe it's only the really fat people who are getting fatter, as this study seems to say, but any non-American who has eyes to see and money to travel (or who works in the tourist industry) would tell you the same thing: Americans are huge. In general. They may not be the only ones, but they are the hugest on average. I'd say this studies' data is lacking.
I had this short bearish friend from NY who was hot as hell at around 220 pounds. But then he ballooned by about 80-100 pounds in one year, and he looked like a black Michelin man. What was his reaction? He started bitching that the people from the countries he visited were abnormally thin. Until his doctor told him to lose the weight for health reasons, that is.
Denial didn't help his heart, losing weight did.
385
jesus christ.
FAT is NOT FIT!
you need not justify yourself, dan, and lindy was off-base in her attack of you- me thinks the lady doth protest too much.
anyway - i feel for those people for whom food is an addiction, as proven by MRI scans, and i am not speaking about these people. but give me a BREAK - you are FAT because you EAT TOO MUCH. fine, embrace the fat, that's awesome, but don't pretend that it's healthy, attractive or that you don't want to "deprive" yourself. I'm thin and fit and eat chocolate everyday, go out at least 3x weekly to dinner and drinks and don't give a hoot about calories, but i work out and my status quo is to eat healthy by packing my lunch everyday and getting off my ass. not spending hours redirecting my lameness towards dan savage.
FAT is NOT FIT!
you need not justify yourself, dan, and lindy was off-base in her attack of you- me thinks the lady doth protest too much.
anyway - i feel for those people for whom food is an addiction, as proven by MRI scans, and i am not speaking about these people. but give me a BREAK - you are FAT because you EAT TOO MUCH. fine, embrace the fat, that's awesome, but don't pretend that it's healthy, attractive or that you don't want to "deprive" yourself. I'm thin and fit and eat chocolate everyday, go out at least 3x weekly to dinner and drinks and don't give a hoot about calories, but i work out and my status quo is to eat healthy by packing my lunch everyday and getting off my ass. not spending hours redirecting my lameness towards dan savage.
386
@384
You might be noticing it because you are primed to notice it: international media is constantly harping on Americans as being the fattest in the world, and so you are prepared to find evidence to fit your previous knowledge (that's human nature.)
It's also possible you see all these fat Americans in airports because Americans are, stereotypically speaking, wealthier than most other countries. The average American can afford to travel. In other countries, perhaps it is only the richest who are traveling, and also the richest who are working out, so you're not seeing an accurate "average" representation.
Lastly, while individual observation and experience is great, it's not scientific. Studies DO suggest Americans are a fatter country, but we are not the fattest, and we are not even the fattest of the industrial countries by a large margin (http://www.expatify.com/news/the-worlds-….)
Your observations are your observations but they are not proof of fact. And even if your observations WERE true, and Americans were by far the fattest of the world AND far outweighing other nations by a heavy margin, what would it prove?
You might be noticing it because you are primed to notice it: international media is constantly harping on Americans as being the fattest in the world, and so you are prepared to find evidence to fit your previous knowledge (that's human nature.)
It's also possible you see all these fat Americans in airports because Americans are, stereotypically speaking, wealthier than most other countries. The average American can afford to travel. In other countries, perhaps it is only the richest who are traveling, and also the richest who are working out, so you're not seeing an accurate "average" representation.
Lastly, while individual observation and experience is great, it's not scientific. Studies DO suggest Americans are a fatter country, but we are not the fattest, and we are not even the fattest of the industrial countries by a large margin (http://www.expatify.com/news/the-worlds-….)
Your observations are your observations but they are not proof of fact. And even if your observations WERE true, and Americans were by far the fattest of the world AND far outweighing other nations by a heavy margin, what would it prove?
387
Dan, I'm pretty much entirely with you on this one. Good for Lindy re: shamedeath, but she got a lot wrong in her post. Other commenters have already said it better than I have, so I'll just send you my kudos, and this one caveat: comparing being fat and being on meth was probably a bad call, from a winning-fights-on-the-internet standpoint.
Finally: so glad those pants went out of style.
Finally: so glad those pants went out of style.
388
This is exhausting. I really hope you guys kiss and make up soon, and get back to writing great snarky sex columns and great snarky movie reviews.
389
Dan, I don't really think you could be that bigoted against fat people, since you're the main reason why I can really, fully, joyfully accept my love of them. I fantasize about them, I'm so lucky to have a great and sexy relationsip with one, and, while I used to think i would feel embarrassed being a relatively in-shape guy with a large man with his arm over my shoulders, because of you I have *no* compunction walking down the street like that now. Thank you for all you do to help fat people be more accepted!
391
I think fat people touch a nerve with Dan and Dan touches a nerve with fat people. Dan contributes to the self-loathing that is already there...and it hurts. And it all goes back to childhood...
390
I will agree that I found Lindy's piece to be about pain, and a common struggle for women (and many men) to accept their individual beauty. I found it touching and I deeply respect Lindy for putting herself out there. And, my heart desires to reflect back affirmation, respect, and encouragement with a hearty "Go, Lindy, go!" And, to acknowledge the pain in hopes that by coming to light it can begin to heal.
I appreciated Dan's rebuttal, but I tend to rely on my personal experience with a person, so I didn't require it. He's beautifully and obnoxiously human as the rest of us are, and like the rest of us I think he could choose his words more wisely in some instances... well I know I certainly should. But, I'm, also, prepared to accept him as he comes, and to decide if he is addressing and/or ranting in general towards me before becoming wounded by his words, as the price of admission. It took me a few months to comprehend that I didn't have to own what he was saying, and if it didn't match up I could both "listen" and dismiss it as his opinion. Hopefully, most people are a quicker study or less tenderhearted than I tend to be!
Lastly, perhaps, it is my hopeful wish, or the fact that he's always been kind, generous, and compassionate in all of our personal interactions that is playing a part, but inside this post I 'hear' someone cheering a hurting co-worker/associate/friend on? And, in my glass half-full view, I hope that I'm not imagining it and that Lindy's is hearing it.
@ Everyone,
Thank you for your kind wishes, thoughts, hugs, and prayers with regard to my health. Time will tell, but no matter what know that you are loved. And, I appreciate your kindness.
@ Matt,
I'm crossing my fingers and sending good thoughts towards you and your's.
Ps. I hope this isn't a double post, Slog and I are having issues.
More...
I appreciated Dan's rebuttal, but I tend to rely on my personal experience with a person, so I didn't require it. He's beautifully and obnoxiously human as the rest of us are, and like the rest of us I think he could choose his words more wisely in some instances... well I know I certainly should. But, I'm, also, prepared to accept him as he comes, and to decide if he is addressing and/or ranting in general towards me before becoming wounded by his words, as the price of admission. It took me a few months to comprehend that I didn't have to own what he was saying, and if it didn't match up I could both "listen" and dismiss it as his opinion. Hopefully, most people are a quicker study or less tenderhearted than I tend to be!
Lastly, perhaps, it is my hopeful wish, or the fact that he's always been kind, generous, and compassionate in all of our personal interactions that is playing a part, but inside this post I 'hear' someone cheering a hurting co-worker/associate/friend on? And, in my glass half-full view, I hope that I'm not imagining it and that Lindy's is hearing it.
@ Everyone,
Thank you for your kind wishes, thoughts, hugs, and prayers with regard to my health. Time will tell, but no matter what know that you are loved. And, I appreciate your kindness.
@ Matt,
I'm crossing my fingers and sending good thoughts towards you and your's.
Ps. I hope this isn't a double post, Slog and I are having issues.
392
To those who are flaming Dan over his "thin privilege" or "moral high ground of thinness", get fucking real.
If he has any privilege or moral high ground, it's because he *was* fat and *now* he's thin. He knows what it takes to get to where he is today. And if you look at him, especially in a T-shirt, you'll come to immediately recognize just how much time he spends in a gym. It's a lot. And I'll bet that he *has* to spend that much time in the gym just to keep the weight off. He knows it's hard work. He knows it takes a lot of time away from his family. And he knows that it's worth the effort, because he knows what happens when he doesn't keep it up. For him, the struggle is constant.
I was one of those people that bought into the bullshit that some people are just at their body's genetically predisposed weight, and there's nothing you can do about it. After all, my whole life I've been *underweight* in spite of my best efforts. Then my wife decided that enough was enough and that she was going to do whatever was necessary to lose the large amount of excess weight she was carrying around, regardless of the cost to wallet and time. She went to the nearest Fitness World and got a personal trainer three months ago. She's already lost over 40 lbs. But best of all, she can keep up with me when we go out for a walk, and that benefit was realized within two weeks.
Personal trainers don't do anything magical. They will tell you what you should eat (google "Canada food guide"), and how you should exercise (Google "workout routines"), but most importantly, they won't believe your bullshit: The lies you tell yourself to preserve your ego or make you think you don't have to work harder than you already are, or eat better than you think you are.
Dan is an expert at seeing people's bullshit for what it is. That's why he's so good at what he does.
More...
If he has any privilege or moral high ground, it's because he *was* fat and *now* he's thin. He knows what it takes to get to where he is today. And if you look at him, especially in a T-shirt, you'll come to immediately recognize just how much time he spends in a gym. It's a lot. And I'll bet that he *has* to spend that much time in the gym just to keep the weight off. He knows it's hard work. He knows it takes a lot of time away from his family. And he knows that it's worth the effort, because he knows what happens when he doesn't keep it up. For him, the struggle is constant.
I was one of those people that bought into the bullshit that some people are just at their body's genetically predisposed weight, and there's nothing you can do about it. After all, my whole life I've been *underweight* in spite of my best efforts. Then my wife decided that enough was enough and that she was going to do whatever was necessary to lose the large amount of excess weight she was carrying around, regardless of the cost to wallet and time. She went to the nearest Fitness World and got a personal trainer three months ago. She's already lost over 40 lbs. But best of all, she can keep up with me when we go out for a walk, and that benefit was realized within two weeks.
Personal trainers don't do anything magical. They will tell you what you should eat (google "Canada food guide"), and how you should exercise (Google "workout routines"), but most importantly, they won't believe your bullshit: The lies you tell yourself to preserve your ego or make you think you don't have to work harder than you already are, or eat better than you think you are.
Dan is an expert at seeing people's bullshit for what it is. That's why he's so good at what he does.
393
My two cents:
1) Dan is right. Obesity is unhealthy. I'm not talking about healthy, beautiful curves (even if Dan finds those rolls of fat gross, I think curvy women are hot!). You know the people I'm talking about. The ones who have trouble walking more than a few blocks without getting out of breath. It's great to love your body for how it looks but it's also important to love your body for what it can do. Most people can lose some amount of weight (those minor few with thyroid problems excepted) but most can't lose the amount that they want. They won't become sticks (and thank goodness!) because people's bodies do have different metabolisms and bone structures. It IS a lot harder for some people to lose weight. Also, fuck diet fads. Eat less and try to eat some veggies every day is my, admittedly obvious, advice. And walk more.
2) Lindy is right. Fat prejudice exists in almost everyone. Dan's problem isn't that he's prejudiced. It's that he won't admit it and work against it. I think his is of the "ewww" variety; his views are in the right place but he has kneejerk disgust for fatness. Every fat person I've ever met has tried dieting and had to get to a place of loving their body (even if they did become work-out maniacs and lose a bit of weight). I myself have put on a bit (about 10 pounds in the last 10 years) and have noticed how differently I'm treated. In fact, due to a bout of food poisoning, and subsequent avoiding of a lot of food, I lost 4 pounds in one week. One of my girlfriend's relatives crowed about how much better I looked. I appreciated the compliment but it's crazy the difference 4 pounds can make in how you're treated. People are judgmental about me being not skinny, even though I'm within my BMI range. So, I imagine it's a lot worse to be fat.
To sum: I think Lindy's right that shame doesn't help and that it's harder for some people to lose weight but I agree with Dan that grossly overweight people should lose some weight. (Lindy doesn't seem grossly overweight) And I think it's important that we change our view of food. I, personally, eat whatever I want but I eat slowly and try to stop when I'm full.
Sorry for the superlong post.
More...
1) Dan is right. Obesity is unhealthy. I'm not talking about healthy, beautiful curves (even if Dan finds those rolls of fat gross, I think curvy women are hot!). You know the people I'm talking about. The ones who have trouble walking more than a few blocks without getting out of breath. It's great to love your body for how it looks but it's also important to love your body for what it can do. Most people can lose some amount of weight (those minor few with thyroid problems excepted) but most can't lose the amount that they want. They won't become sticks (and thank goodness!) because people's bodies do have different metabolisms and bone structures. It IS a lot harder for some people to lose weight. Also, fuck diet fads. Eat less and try to eat some veggies every day is my, admittedly obvious, advice. And walk more.
2) Lindy is right. Fat prejudice exists in almost everyone. Dan's problem isn't that he's prejudiced. It's that he won't admit it and work against it. I think his is of the "ewww" variety; his views are in the right place but he has kneejerk disgust for fatness. Every fat person I've ever met has tried dieting and had to get to a place of loving their body (even if they did become work-out maniacs and lose a bit of weight). I myself have put on a bit (about 10 pounds in the last 10 years) and have noticed how differently I'm treated. In fact, due to a bout of food poisoning, and subsequent avoiding of a lot of food, I lost 4 pounds in one week. One of my girlfriend's relatives crowed about how much better I looked. I appreciated the compliment but it's crazy the difference 4 pounds can make in how you're treated. People are judgmental about me being not skinny, even though I'm within my BMI range. So, I imagine it's a lot worse to be fat.
To sum: I think Lindy's right that shame doesn't help and that it's harder for some people to lose weight but I agree with Dan that grossly overweight people should lose some weight. (Lindy doesn't seem grossly overweight) And I think it's important that we change our view of food. I, personally, eat whatever I want but I eat slowly and try to stop when I'm full.
Sorry for the superlong post.
394
Dan, I love you more than I love any other random famous person that I do not personally know, but unfortunately, in this case, you are simply wrong. And Lindy is simply, beautifully right. When you talk about fat -- fat people, fat on people, muffin tops, fat populations, fat partners of your letter writers, there is a whiff of disgust in your voice. This is not uncommon. I have heard this whiff of disgust in the voices of actual fat people, when discussing other fat people, or even themselves. Just listen to Kirstie Alley confessing her sins to Oprah; you will hear all about how they disgust themselves.
I can't believe I have to say this to you, of all people, but how people comport themselves in their daily lives, how they represent themselves, how they treat and view their bodies, what they put in their mouths, what they enjoy or don't enjoy without hurting others, that does not effect you, is not for you to be disgusted by. Just as being gay, who you love or don't love, what you choose to do with your body, how you represent yourself, whether or not you are in other's faces, is no one's business, and no one else's to judge. Being fat, like being gay, is not a choice, because if it was WHO WOULD CHOOSE IT? Who would choose to feel like an outsider, an offense, who would choose to limit their sexual partners, the clothing they can wear, their energy and mobility?
Like so many above have said, your response was flailing, weak, uncharacteristically incomprehensible because it was uncharacteristally WRONG. You've taught a lot of people a lot about people, but this? You need to relearn.
I can't believe I have to say this to you, of all people, but how people comport themselves in their daily lives, how they represent themselves, how they treat and view their bodies, what they put in their mouths, what they enjoy or don't enjoy without hurting others, that does not effect you, is not for you to be disgusted by. Just as being gay, who you love or don't love, what you choose to do with your body, how you represent yourself, whether or not you are in other's faces, is no one's business, and no one else's to judge. Being fat, like being gay, is not a choice, because if it was WHO WOULD CHOOSE IT? Who would choose to feel like an outsider, an offense, who would choose to limit their sexual partners, the clothing they can wear, their energy and mobility?
Like so many above have said, your response was flailing, weak, uncharacteristically incomprehensible because it was uncharacteristally WRONG. You've taught a lot of people a lot about people, but this? You need to relearn.
395
@ 386 - My post is in fact about denial. The scientific article I was discussing seems to have been made specifically in order to reassure Americans that the situation is not so bad. Opening one's eyes and not looking for quick excuses reveals that it is.
I don't see fat Americans because I'm "primed" to see them. That's preposterous. Didn't you get the line: "it's striking to me how many people I see there (proportionally) whose belly touches their knees."
Why do you think I used the word "striking"? And didn't you notice the specific description "whose BELLY touches their KNEES"? You just don't see that anywhere else, not in those proportions. Anyhone who's travelled can attest to that (except, of course, if their only travel destination is American Samoa).
But please, do tell me what does your argument to the effect that "It's also possible you see all these fat Americans in airports because Americans are, stereotypically speaking, wealthier than most other countries. The average American can afford to travel" prove, other than that the average American is fatter than people from most other nations?
My observations indeed relate to STAFF and TRAVELLERS alike in American airports. I don't think the 20-year old, 300 pound guy who sold me a sandwich the last time (at O'Hare) was one of those Americans who travel a lot.
And your perception of "other countries" is amusingly naive. In many European countries, people get 4 to 5 weeks paid holidays, and a lot of people travel a lot. They also have much better social protections in general, so even working-class people can afford to travel. I spent 5 years in Europe, on minimum salary, and did I ever travel!
With that line of defense, though, you mostly show that you can't even read properly ("I've visited around 30 countries"). I didn't say I observed rich people who travel: I said that I've observed them in their own country. Where you can see people of every class, not just the rich.
That said, it's supposed to be poor people who suffer most from this obesity epidemic in the States, for reasons discussed here and in many earlier comments threads and numerous papers and newspaper articles etc. My observations were meant to underline that it appears to be people from every race and every social class who are fat-to-obese in the States. So there's only so much that these economical/societal explanations can actually explain.
Finally, the article you give the link to says this:
"Well, the U.S.A. doesn’t top the list, but it’s close, and it falls behind only a small islands nation and one of its own unincorporated territories." (And if you find anything in the statistics it contains that makes you feel better, well... that's sad.)
So thanks for proving my point about denial.
The funny thing about this is that I am a proud chubby chaser, as I've said earlier. I like big guys, I really do. But I like those who accept themselves and don't try to deny their responsibilities much better than the whiny, immature, it's-not-my-fault crowd who sound like 9-year olds who just got caught stealing cookies from the jar ("He made me do it!"). Because that's what denial tells us about people: how immature they are.
More...
I don't see fat Americans because I'm "primed" to see them. That's preposterous. Didn't you get the line: "it's striking to me how many people I see there (proportionally) whose belly touches their knees."
Why do you think I used the word "striking"? And didn't you notice the specific description "whose BELLY touches their KNEES"? You just don't see that anywhere else, not in those proportions. Anyhone who's travelled can attest to that (except, of course, if their only travel destination is American Samoa).
But please, do tell me what does your argument to the effect that "It's also possible you see all these fat Americans in airports because Americans are, stereotypically speaking, wealthier than most other countries. The average American can afford to travel" prove, other than that the average American is fatter than people from most other nations?
My observations indeed relate to STAFF and TRAVELLERS alike in American airports. I don't think the 20-year old, 300 pound guy who sold me a sandwich the last time (at O'Hare) was one of those Americans who travel a lot.
And your perception of "other countries" is amusingly naive. In many European countries, people get 4 to 5 weeks paid holidays, and a lot of people travel a lot. They also have much better social protections in general, so even working-class people can afford to travel. I spent 5 years in Europe, on minimum salary, and did I ever travel!
With that line of defense, though, you mostly show that you can't even read properly ("I've visited around 30 countries"). I didn't say I observed rich people who travel: I said that I've observed them in their own country. Where you can see people of every class, not just the rich.
That said, it's supposed to be poor people who suffer most from this obesity epidemic in the States, for reasons discussed here and in many earlier comments threads and numerous papers and newspaper articles etc. My observations were meant to underline that it appears to be people from every race and every social class who are fat-to-obese in the States. So there's only so much that these economical/societal explanations can actually explain.
Finally, the article you give the link to says this:
"Well, the U.S.A. doesn’t top the list, but it’s close, and it falls behind only a small islands nation and one of its own unincorporated territories." (And if you find anything in the statistics it contains that makes you feel better, well... that's sad.)
So thanks for proving my point about denial.
The funny thing about this is that I am a proud chubby chaser, as I've said earlier. I like big guys, I really do. But I like those who accept themselves and don't try to deny their responsibilities much better than the whiny, immature, it's-not-my-fault crowd who sound like 9-year olds who just got caught stealing cookies from the jar ("He made me do it!"). Because that's what denial tells us about people: how immature they are.
396
@368 Right, that's my point, I don't have that experience, so it is hard for me to understand what it must be like. However, Dan and I and many others do have valid experiences of our own, in which obesity was fought and seemingly beaten. It seems pretty natural that we'd take an interest in the efforts of healthcare and governments to prevent or reduce obesity rates.
We also have the right to decide what we find unattractive... which in Dan's case includes vaginas and rolls of fat. Despite my weight loss, I possess both and am somehow not offended by the realization that he will never sleep with me, for reasons I have no control over.
PS: Sorry about the lose/loose thing. I'm appropriately ashamed, horrified and disgusted by my grammar.
We also have the right to decide what we find unattractive... which in Dan's case includes vaginas and rolls of fat. Despite my weight loss, I possess both and am somehow not offended by the realization that he will never sleep with me, for reasons I have no control over.
PS: Sorry about the lose/loose thing. I'm appropriately ashamed, horrified and disgusted by my grammar.
397
Physics! Laws of Thermodynamics! Conservation of Mass!
...Am I a certified hater of everyone with a weight issue now?
...Am I a certified hater of everyone with a weight issue now?
398
Rolls of exposed flesh ARE, objectively, unsightly. Christ on a crutch some of you people are deluded. I guess if you spout bullshit long enough you can actually start to believe it.
399
Dan does does not hate fat people. Some folks just need to blame someone else for their own self loathing and feelings of inadequacy.
Advertisement
Most Commented on Slog
-
Portland Voters Are Stoopid by Goldy
-
An I-5 Bridge Over the Skagit River Has Collapsed by Paul Constant
-
Why They Break Windows by Unpaid Intern
-
Usually When I'm Sent a Photoshopped Image of a Gun Pointed At Me... by Dan Savage
-
Did You Steal Our Unpaid Intern's Camera? by Goldy
-
Tornado Truthers by Dan Savage
-
The Only Thing More Tragic than a Bridge Collapse Would Be a 10 Cent a Gallon Increase in the Gas Tax by Goldy
-
Star Trek Releases Deleted Scene of Benedict Cumberbatch Showering to Counter Claims of Sexism by Cienna Madrid
-
Boy Scouts Lift Ban on Gay Members by Paul Constant
-
SL Letter of the Day: Not A Prude... And Not Just Not That... by Dan Savage
Stranger Personals
The Stranger
RSSSeattle Art & Performance Quarterly
A complete guide to Seattle's current art, film, dance, and theater season.
Facebook
Twitter
Comments (486) RSS