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Friday, February 11, 2011

Hello, I Am Fat

Posted by on Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 3:53 PM

28 years old, female, 59, 263 lbs.
  • 28 years old, female, 5'9", 263 lbs.
This is my body (over there—see it?). I have lived in this body my whole life. I have wanted to change this body my whole life. I have never wanted anything as much as I have wanted a new body. I am aware every day that other people find my body disgusting. I always thought that some day—when I finally stop failing—I will become smaller, and when I become smaller literally everything will get better (I've heard It Gets Better)! My life can begin! I will get the clothes that I want, the job that I want, the love that I want. It will be great! Think how great it will be to buy some pants or whatever at J. Crew. Oh, man. Pants. Instead, my body stays the same.


There is not a fat person on earth who hasn't lived this way. Clearly this is a TERRIBLE WAY TO EXIST. Also, strangely enough, it did not cause me to become thin. So I do not believe any of it anymore, because fuck it very much.

This is my body. It is MINE. I am not ashamed of it in any way. In fact, I love everything about it. Men find it attractive. Clothes look awesome on it. My brain rides around in it all day and comes up with funny jokes. Also, I don't have to justify its awesomeness/attractiveness/healthiness/usefulness to anyone, because it is MINE. Not yours.

I'm not going to spend a bunch of time blogging about fat acceptance here (but please read this), because other writers have already done it much more eloquently, thoroughly, and radically than I ever could. But I do feel obligated to try to explain what this all means.

You asked me for links, Dan, so here are some links for you. There are plenty more, but if you want me to go through each one and explain to you how these words and implications hurt and shame people, you're going to have to pay me overtime (in Doritos!!!!!). I get that you think you're actually helping people and society by contributing to the fucking Alp of shame that crushes every fat person every day of their lives—the same shame that makes it a radical act for me to post a picture of my body and tell you how much it weighs. But you're not helping. Shame doesn't work. Diets don't work. Shame is a tool of oppression, not change.

Fat people already are ashamed. It's taken care of. No further manpower needed on the shame front, thx. I am not concerned with whether or not fat people can change their bodies through self-discipline and "choices." Pretty much all of them have tried already. A couple of them have succeeded. Whatever. My question is, what if they try and try and try and still fail? What if they are still fat? What if they are fat forever? What do you do with them then? Do you really want millions of teenage girls to feel like they're trapped in unsightly lard prisons that are ruining their lives, and on top of that it's because of their own moral failure, and on top of that they are ruining America with the terribly expensive diabetes that they don't even have yet? You know what's shameful? A complete lack of empathy.

And if you really claim to still be confused—"Nu uh! I never said anything u guyz srsly!"—there can be no misunderstanding shit like this:

I am thoroughly annoyed at having my tame statements of fact—being heavy is a health risk; rolls of exposed flesh are unsightly—characterized as "hate speech."

Ha!

1. "Rolls of exposed flesh are unsightly" is in no way a "tame statement of fact." It is not a fact at all—it is an incredibly cruel, subjective opinion that reinforces destructive, paternalistic, oppressive beauty ideals. I am not unsightly. No one deserves to be told that they're unsightly. But this is what's behind this entire thing—it's not about "health," it's about "eeeewwwww." You think fat people are icky. Eeeewww, a fat person might touch you on a plane. With their fat! Eeeeewww! Coincidentally, that's the same feeling that drives anti-gay bigots, no matter what excuses they drum up about "family values" and, yes, "health." It's all "eeeewwwww." And sorry, I reject your eeeeeewwww.

2. You are not concerned about my health. Because if you were concerned about my health, you would also be concerned about my mental health, which has spent the past 28 years being slowly eroded by statements like the above. Also, you don't know anything about my health. You do happen to be the boss of me, but you are not the doctor of me. You have no idea what I eat, how much I exercise, what my blood pressure is, or whether or not I'm going to get diabetes. Not that any of that matters, because it is entirely none of your business.

3. "But but but my insurance premiums!!!" Bullshit. You live in a society with other people. I don't have kids, but I pay taxes that fund schools. The idea that we can somehow escape affecting each other is deeply conservative. Barbarous, even. Is that really what you're going for? Good old-fashioned American individualism? Please.

4. But most importantly: I reject this entire framework. I don't give a shit what causes anyone's fatness. It's irrelevant and it's none of my business. I am not making excuses, because I have nothing to excuse. I reject the notion that thinness is the goal, that thin = better—that I am an unfinished thing and that my life can really start when I lose weight. That then I will be a real person and have finally succeeded as a woman. I am not going to waste another second of my life thinking about this. I don't want to have another fucking conversation with another fucking woman about what she's eating or not eating or regrets eating or pretends to not regret eating to mask the regret. OOPS I JUST YAWNED TO DEATH.

If you really want change to happen, if you really want to "help" fat people, you need to understand that shaming an already-shamed population is, well, shameful. Do you know what happened as soon as I rejected all this shit and fell in unconditional luuuuurve with my entire body? I started losing weight. Immediately. WELL LA DEE FUCKING DA.

Eds. note: Dan Savage's response is over here.

 

Comments (1122) RSS

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1433
Since I topped out at 6'0" I've been; 16 thin 175 lbs, 17 fat 210 lbs, 18 fit 187 lbs, 19 fat again 220 lbs, 22 a proper athlete 160 lbs (boxing), 23 a workout anorexic 145 lbs (also boxing), 23-27 proper athlete again 170-220 lbs (rugby), 29-30 just under morbidly obese 275 lbs (University Student) and am currently getting back to fit 31 235 lbs. . The thing that changed before each of these stages was always my lifestyle. It not enough to WANT a change you have to MAKE changeS (plural). You don't have to kill yourself at a gym or starve if you just want to be healthier. Any top athlete who knows their stuff will tell you it's 80% nutrition. My successful attempts to lose weight all start and grow the same way.
1. Get a good sleep pattern. (consistent wake and rest times even on the weekends) To the point that you wake up naturally before your alarm. This also translates to less "screen" time. Then go on to step 2.
2. Prepare your breakfast. My favourite is oatmeal. But I have egg wraps most weekends. When you've found consistency at the start of your day move on the rest of it.
3. Prepare all of your food. Make time. Nothing is more important than healthy intake. No more take out, eat out less than once a week, no pre-made foods in the fridge. This is the portion that if you're too lazy you will fail. Food is something you can immediately identify as a specific piece of a specific animal or vegetation. This third step usually takes the longest. If you want some help with it there is a great book out called "The Body Reset Diet" written by a Harley Pasternak. http://www.harleypasternak.com/index.php… It was the easiest weight loss I've done. But it only took me so far.
4. Get active. This doesn't mean take up running. Running for fun is for the mentally ill. Simple stretches are a good place to start. Learn how to work with your body. Some people go for yoga. I advise against starting with bullshit flow yoga, or any of that temperature extreme stuff it's not for beginners and is sub-optimal for increasing flexibility. If you're not stretching/holding a pose for 30 seconds or more you're doing it wrong. 2-3 minutes before your stretch is lengthening your connective tissue.
5. Now that you're eating well and should have reduced your pain level while increasing your range of motion, it's time to move. Find something you enjoy that involves moving around. And make it part of your week at first and then part of your day.
6. Fine tuning. This is the portion where you could start setting goals for your body. Everything up to this was just getting acquainted with your body and what it can do for you. You've built the roots of health to branch out to what you would like to do.

"Discontent is the first necessity of progress." - Thomas Edison

Acceptance is the same as giving up. People with greater disadvantages than you have done more with less.

On the subject of shaming. Someone won't change until they want to and start doing something about it. No one's ever made me make a change. It's internal. That cuts both ways. If you want to stay fat, then stay fat. Just have the good decency to not enable or encourage other people to be fat too. For no other reason than to feel better about doing nothing for yourself.

Last sound bite.

If you've tried everything and achieved nothing. You haven't tried anything.
More...
Posted by fueledbyspite on August 24, 2014 at 8:41 AM · Report this
1432
Since I topped out at 6'0" I've been; 16 thin 175 lbs, 17 fat 210 lbs, 18 fit 187 lbs, 19 fat again 220 lbs, 22 a proper athlete 160 lbs (boxing), 23 a workout anorexic 145 lbs (also boxing), 23-27 proper athlete again 170-220 lbs (rugby), 29-30 just under morbidly obese 275 lbs (University Student) and am currently getting back to fit 31 235 lbs. . The thing that changed before each of these stages was always my lifestyle. It not enough to WANT a change you have to MAKE changeS (plural). You don't have to kill yourself at a gym or starve if you just want to be healthier. Any top athlete who knows their stuff will tell you it's 80% nutrition. My successful attempts to lose weight all start and grow the same way.
1. Get a good sleep pattern. (consistent wake and rest times even on the weekends) To the point that you wake up naturally before your alarm. This also translates to less "screen" time. Then go on to step 2.
2. Prepare your breakfast. My favourite is oatmeal. But I have egg wraps most weekends. When you've found consistency at the start of your day move on the rest of it.
3. Prepare all of your food. Make time. Nothing is more important than healthy intake. No more take out, eat out less than once a week, no pre-made foods in the fridge. This is the portion that if you're too lazy you will fail. Food is something you can immediately identify as a specific piece of a specific animal or vegetation. This third step usually takes the longest. If you want some help with it there is a great book out called "The Body Reset Diet" written by a Harley Pasternak. http://www.harleypasternak.com/index.php… It was the easiest weight loss I've done. But it only took me so far.
4. Get active. This doesn't mean take up running. Running for fun is for the mentally ill. Simple stretches are a good place to start. Learn how to work with your body. Some people go for yoga. I advise against starting with bullshit flow yoga, or any of that temperature extreme stuff it's not for beginners and is sub-optimal for increasing flexibility. If you're not stretching/holding a pose for 30 seconds or more you're doing it wrong. 2-3 minutes before your stretch is lengthening your connective tissue.
5. Now that you're eating well and should have reduced your pain level while increasing your range of motion, it's time to move. Find something you enjoy that involves moving around. And make it part of your week at first and then part of your day.
6. Fine tuning. This is the portion where you could start setting goals for your body. Everything up to this was just getting acquainted with your body and what it can do for you. You've built the roots of health to branch out to what you would like to do.

"Discontent is the first necessity of progress." - Thomas Edison

Acceptance is the same as giving up. People with greater disadvantages than you have done more with less.

On the subject of shaming. Someone won't change until they want to and start doing something about it. No one's ever made me make a change. It's internal. That cuts both ways. If you want to stay fat, then stay fat. Just have the good decency to not enable or encourage other people to be fat too. For no other reason than to feel better about doing nothing for yourself.

Last sound bite.

If you've tried everything and achieved nothing. You haven't tried anything.
More...
Posted by fueledbyspite on August 24, 2014 at 8:39 AM · Report this
chloecats 1430
Well said ! or well written, I think is best. I live in France, Paris, where everyone is supposed to look like supermodels and have legs the size of my forearm. If you don't look like this, you're not "normal". Well reading your article just made my day.

FUCK IT :)
Posted by chloecats on October 2, 2013 at 5:43 AM · Report this
1423
Lindy you rock!
Love all the guys in the comments who feel the need to tell her how attractive she is (or would be if she lost weight). Do you not understand that it doesn't matter at all what you think of her body at all? At fucking all. Do you understand that getting your dick hard is not at the top of most women's priorities? When you write things like "you would be attractive if you lost 100 pounds" you are part of the fucking problem, further reinforcing the idea that a women's worth depends on if a man thinks she's pretty. That shit is tired.
I am a grad student in public health and I am finding a strong argument that it's yoyo dieting that causes diseases and poor health. Fluctuating weight is more harmful than staying at a high stable weight. And since the vast majority of dieters end up regaining all the weight plus more 5 years after weight loss....your encouragement for her to try harder to change her weight is pretty misguided.
Why are you not directing the anger you have toward fat women to the weight loss industry? 40 million dollars a year for profiting off of people's insecurities. Plus the owner of many diet companies also profit when the diet fails and you binge on the foods you said were off limits. They own those companies too.
Posted by rjsf on September 14, 2012 at 3:05 PM · Report this
1421
Hey keep defending bad habits and nutrition-related ignorance, that's fantastic. Fat people are fat (barring the highly rare glandular disorder) because they lack the willpower to learn about proper nutrition, practice impulse control, or refuse to curb bad behaviors.

My parents (in their 60's) were overweight and on hypertension and blood pressure medication. My mother was a borderline diabetic. They switched to a vegan diet and have trimmed down to a healthy weight in NINE MONTHS and their respective doctors informed them they could stop taking all of their associated medications as their blood tests indicated they were in the safe zone.
Posted by nicktheviking on September 13, 2012 at 11:31 AM · Report this
1417
"My brain rides around in it all day and comes up with funny jokes."

Not that I've noticed.
Posted by Jay Jay Jay Eight-Jay on April 30, 2012 at 5:38 AM · Report this
1412
You are my new shero <3
Thank you for existing and speaking about your existence.
It helps me to easier communicate my right to peacefully exist.
To my mother.
Posted by EcofeministEarthwarrior on April 9, 2012 at 9:54 PM · Report this
1411
You are my new shero <3
Thank you for existing and speaking about your existence.
It helps me to easier communicate my right to peacefully exist.
To my mother.
Posted by EcofeministEarthwarrior on April 9, 2012 at 9:52 PM · Report this
1409
I think this is better Fat Loss tips... When it comes to losing weight, snacking is where most of us end up getting it all wrong. We either completely ignore health when it comes to our favorite between meal snacks or we simply eat too much of an otherwise healthy snack. Either way the result is that we eat more calories, fat and sodium than is necessary to lose weight and end up with the exact opposite outcome. What we need are healthy snacks for weight loss because eliminating snacks altogether is unrealistic. The key is finding healthy snacks that are both easy and tasty so we can enjoy weight loss without starvation. Keep reading to learn more! Thanks
Posted by Lasa on February 12, 2012 at 6:48 AM · Report this
Urgutha Forka 1408
LAST!!!
Posted by Urgutha Forka on February 7, 2012 at 12:40 AM · Report this
1407
Your body is not disgusting, just as long as you keep it well-clothed (i.e. covered). You are, however, sexually useless, unattractive, a wobbling waddling blimpy-the-beluga-land-whale.
Posted by feenomeenum on January 30, 2012 at 9:09 AM · Report this
1406
I think this Dan bloke got turned down by a Fat Woman sometime in his life and hes never got over it ....
Posted by UK Observer. on January 15, 2012 at 9:14 PM · Report this
1401
Would people please stop making the false assumption that weight loss is simple? It is actually far from it.
Yes, I understand that Shape magazine and Men's Health have told you that all you need to worry about it calories in and calories out. As others have pointed out this is hardly a valuable tool for a diverse population- different individuals will have different resting metabolisms which will significantly impact whether out not the calories in, calories out method works.
Step away from the calories. For example, consider how successful paleo, primal and low carb diets have been for some even though they are can be incredibly high in calories, particularly from fats and proteins.
That being said, there is no simple SUSTAINABLE solution to weight loss that is applicable at a systemic level. And weight is a poor correlate for overall health. Don't believe me, research the sketchy history of the Body Mass Index (BMI) which incidentally was never intended to be a diagnostic of individual health but a measure of a populations health.
Health is a subjective product. When the National Institutes of Health modified the "overweight" category in the body mass index in 1997, millions of Americans became obese overnight. Before this shift, according to the BMI, 68 million were overweight or obese; after, that number increased to 96 million.
This is not to say that good health is not a goal worth pursuing, which I don't believe to be Lindy's point either. But rather "health" is not a universal medical truth, it means different things for different people.Health does not have a direct relationship with weight but rather blood pressure, blood sugar etc. and other measures that CORRELATE (but do not demonstrate direct causal relationship with weight). Therefore get off your effing high horse, and stop making poor presumptions about others health based solely on what the media has told you (when you have done no research or have only your own singular experience experiences to rely on because anecdotes are not science).

Show a little love.

Beautiful post Lindy and something that should resonate with everyone, regardless of size.

More...
Posted by RunMoni21 on December 10, 2011 at 12:14 AM · Report this
1394
The more overweight people insist publicly that they love their bodies and they don't need to apologize for it, the more self-conscious it makes them look.

And quit aligning yourself with homosexuals - people are BORN gay! There's no comparison. It's not your sexuality, it's fat. You can do something about it. Why don't you have empathy for gay people and NOT compare being a size 14 to being denied basic human rights by your own government?

Quit contributing to this ever-growing culture of victimhood. You now represent the majority of Americans, so you're not a minority, and you're annoying the crap out of those of us who don't want an entire generation eating their way to premature death.
Posted by FarmerWaltz on December 7, 2011 at 11:11 AM · Report this
1393
The more overweight people insist publicly that they love their bodies and they don't need to apologize for it, the more self-conscious it makes them look.

And quit aligning yourself with homosexuals - people are BORN gay! There's no comparison. It's not your sexuality, it's fat. You can do something about it. Why don't you have empathy for gay people and NOT compare being a size 14 to being denied basic human rights by your own government?

Quit contributing to this ever-growing culture of victimhood. You now represent the majority of Americans, so you're not a minority, and you're annoying the crap out of those of us who don't want an entire generation eating their way to premature death.
Posted by FarmerWaltz on December 7, 2011 at 11:09 AM · Report this
1391
I'm a million years late to the fray.

But 263 pounds is too much; that much weight will definitely kill you before you are ready for it.
Posted by fetish on October 10, 2011 at 6:17 PM · Report this
1383
I can't believe the hypocrisy of this:
"It's my body, I don't have to justify its awesomeness/attractiveness/healthiness/usefulness to anyone, because it is MINE"
Why are you writing the article then?!
You aren't even a good writer; your review of 'Synecdoche, New York' cemented you as a brick in the wall of the greatest idiots that publication has ever known.
Posted by Kingy on July 5, 2011 at 4:04 PM · Report this
1371
does he think he's winning by not giving in? by pretending he didn't mean that? why doesn't he just fucking say he was wrong. why doesn't he just thank you for bringing this perspective. he's not winning, you just won, game, set, match. it was a privilege to read this post, you are an inspiration
Posted by just want to understand on February 28, 2011 at 2:11 PM · Report this
1369
Lindy West is sexy, and I would love to do it to her all day, and all damn night long... HARD! I would totally pound her pussy into submission, and obliterate it, and de-fucking-STROY it, Baby! YEAH!
Posted by SirReno7 on February 22, 2011 at 1:54 PM · Report this
1368
Lindy is sexy, and I would love to do it to her all day, and all damn night long... HARD! I would totally pound her pussy into submission, and obliterate it, and de-fucking-STROY it, Baby! YEAH!
Posted by SirReno7 on February 22, 2011 at 1:50 PM · Report this
1367
Point of order, 254 - gay men suffer from this as intensely as women, because we are BOTH trying to attract men (or a reasonable facsimile thereof).

Until those of us who don't mind being large finally stopped listening to people who wanted to tell us how we had to look. I'm full on with Lindy on this - and I'm glad she's come to this same conclusion. No one gets to tell us who we have to be.
Posted by baeritone on February 22, 2011 at 1:44 PM · Report this
1366
Wow. Thank you. I truly needed this post today. Thank you for sticking up for the voiceless women who don't know yet how much our society is hurting them and are still stuck in the shame-cycle. The young girls who have never been told that they are anything but fat and need to lose weight to be loved, be successful, be happy. For those of us who are older and should know better, but still struggle under the burden of being "too fat" in this society. Thank you for reminding me that my resolve to "not care" has been shaky as of late and providing a much needed boost.
Posted by pdxstocktons on February 22, 2011 at 11:02 AM · Report this
1365
whoops, meant @926, the little sparrow.

must go to bed now!
Posted by awednesdaywhit on February 21, 2011 at 11:37 PM · Report this
1364
@922: You are assuming that all fat people are fat b/c they overeat, are addicted to food, or don't know/care about health risks. I think that if people continually respond to Lindy's article by focusing on the health risks of being overweight, they are continually missing the point of her article; I do not think that you as an individual with overweight friends (thanks for qualifying your authority on the matter!) are not empathetic. And as I emphasized before, I know, WE ALL are aware of the health concerns, so let's please move on to the actual point of Lindy's article...

which is about the social consequences of being overweight in America, and how discrimination against overweight people is often masked simply as "health concerns". Loving one's body, being loved, finding happiness, enjoying life, etc etc should never be directly tied to being thin.
Posted by awednesdaywhit on February 21, 2011 at 11:25 PM · Report this
1363
It seems that being listed on the most commented list is a source of some pride for Stranger writers. But I noticed that this post doesn't appear on the most commented list anymore. Why?
Posted by Michael Wells on February 19, 2011 at 10:53 AM · Report this
1361
Love it, you've said it all. I concur being kind, sensitive, encouraging and supportive of oursleves and others is practicing good mental health habits. So important in overall scheme of things. Stay amazing
Posted by HAEScoach on February 18, 2011 at 4:54 PM · Report this
yelahneb 1360
Last.
Posted by yelahneb http://www.strangebutharmless.com on February 18, 2011 at 3:37 PM · Report this
Jaymz 1358
Whew! Does everybody feel better now? Is that a wrap?
Posted by Jaymz on February 17, 2011 at 6:01 PM · Report this
1357
Who said fat people aren't sensitive?
Posted by earthquake on February 17, 2011 at 5:04 PM · Report this
Donolectic 1356
Late to the party, but Lindy you're awesome. I know you know you're awesome and I've always thought you were awesome, but this post makes you even more awesome (I have just learned that this is possible! MIND BLOWN!!!).

Also @1326 - I bet you're one of those people who get upset when people smile because there are starving children and how can one be happy when innocents are suffering, M I RITE? Fucking douchebag.
Posted by Donolectic on February 17, 2011 at 2:57 PM · Report this
1355
I don't mean to step on toes here, but, it seems like male body image issues are pretty invisible.

I know objectification can be bad, but, you know, I bet it feels nice to know that someone likes how you look.
Posted by taiki on February 17, 2011 at 1:43 PM · Report this
1354
I am fat.

I am male.

Who's advocating for me?
Posted by taiki on February 17, 2011 at 1:31 PM · Report this
Sat'n 1350
And fuck yes I'm objectifying! Boo hoo!
Posted by Sat'n on February 17, 2011 at 11:12 AM · Report this
1349
It shouldn't be about how FAT looks, but what it does to a body! Quit focusing on what people think about how it looks and think about the damage to internal organs, a fatty midsection actually does, it'd be best to focus on educating oneself about this., because as I am founding out perhaps a little too late, is that by not having lost weight way long ago, I have done myself a disfavor. I may have lost several years of life. I see soo many young beautiful girls today, weighing at least 50-100lbs more than they should. Of course, they may not yet feel the damage that is being done, but it WILL come., I am testament of that., and that is considering that I did not even start getting overweight until my mid-30's., so that makes about 20yrs now., not only that, my heavy drinking did even less favors to my health., now I am diabetic, Ive always had high blood pressure which NEVER was stable., and how could it be with all that drinking? Id forget to take my meds, etc.etc., I have been my own worst enemy while taking care of everyone BUT me., Next time you look at a fat person as someone despicable, instead...think of how much they must already hate themselves., they don't need YOUR hate added to the mix. They already know., and I heavily caution those whom are overweight, and don't do anything about it, to do themselves a favor, TODAY, since we all know that that wonderful creamy delicious ice cream doesn't taste as good as would a NICE trim HEALTHY figure.
NOW IF WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN IS CONSIDERED "HATE MAIL" WELL then that is just another excuse, because I have already stated that I am also very much overweight, about 100lbs, and the way it looks is less important that doing something about it., yes I know that some gals have tried, (so have I) and failed, over and over., I am not putting them down or I'd be doing the same to myself., got it? BUT, I can say that HONESTY is critical., HONESTLY I didn't lose weight and I can blame noone but myself., I hate the word TRY..because it leaves the possibility of failure., what IS imperative is that whatever it is that is started, MUST be followed to its end., and I haven't done that., so how smart is it to start a program, and then STOP? Just because it isn't happening fast enough? Come on..if I had stuck with all the programs I started, I'd of lost all of my weight ten years ago! Fat girls, or guys, lets be HONEST for once., tempation has been stronger than resolve to lose., is a FACT., and olny YOU can change that., dont blame others that dislike how you look, forget them! Remember YOU.
More...
Posted by tuflove on February 17, 2011 at 11:07 AM · Report this
santababy 1348
Amazing.
Posted by santababy on February 17, 2011 at 11:04 AM · Report this
Sat'n 1347
No way will I read all these comments, and neither will you probably, but in case no one has said it yet, which probably 600 or so already have, Lindy, you are fuckin' HOT!

Rowr!
Posted by Sat'n on February 17, 2011 at 11:00 AM · Report this
1346
An unprofessional and overly emotional attack on your colleague; shame on you, Lindy. You are apparently so emotional over this subject that you are misunderstanding Dan Savages' posts on this topic.

There are very few people in the world that fall into the category of "impossible to lose weight". I do know one person like this, who has a hormonal problem that is the cause (and even gastric bypass surgery didn't work). I admire that she's learned to love and accept her body and feel attractive, and I hope you reach this point as well, if this is the category that you put yourself into.

Most people who are overweight just really haven't put the effort into the right places - lifestyle changes are very difficult to stick with, especially when one needs to leave behind something that has served as a comfort. It can be done, though. I am 5'2 and went from being 170 to 130, about 5 years ago... I never thought I would be able to lose weight, but I also never realized that I'd never stuck with something long enough to see the results - I'd give up prematurely and say I couldn't lose weight and was never going to be thin. My beloved aunt died at the age of 50 about 15 years ago; she'd reached about 700 pounds and had not left the house during the last 10 years of her life. She refused to talk about her weight with anyone, and cut people out who tried to help. Defending herself didn't help herself; she died and hurt everyone in her family, including me.

I hope you will find the strength to lose the weight you need to lose in order to feel good about yourself, or that if you aren't able to do it for whatever reason, that you reach a point of acceptance about your body. Instead of attacking Dan Savage for his refreshingly honest comments about the obesity epidemic (which are NOT attacks on the obese; you have clearly misunderstood), you should ask him for his help in finding a community where you can meet men who find you beautiful just the way you are.

--Sincerely, A Reader
More...
Posted by transient on February 17, 2011 at 10:13 AM · Report this
1345
I am personally looking at severe health issues for NOT having lost weight and it crept up & up, now its 100lbs I need to lose! Never mind how it looks., its a HEALTH risk! Fat around the midsection endangers internal organs..eventually they can shut down and then..well you can imagine! I hate to say it, but it can lead to death!! I did not know nor understand much about such things before, but now that I do, it is like too little, too late..as has already happened to me, although Im fighting back any way that I can.,
it may not matter now, to people whom are overweight, and Ive seen very young gals that continue to eat like they're not fat, but it WILL later when its too late. Do NOT keep letting excuses rob you of years of life., currently according to some tests, such as at REALAGEdotcom, I stand to lose about 16yrs of life!..do not let other peoples opinions matter so much that you just rebel by NOT losing., come on! The only person hurt is yourself., the life you lose, is the only one you'll ever have (or not have).
Posted by tuflove on February 17, 2011 at 9:59 AM · Report this
1344
To all the obese people who "can't" lose weight although they have tried "everything" ... you might want to start an investigation into what has caused this obesity epidemic. If you look at the data, you will see that the number of people who are obese has TRIPLED in the past fifty years. If this is primarily due to uncontrollable circumstances rather than lifestyle choices, then SOMEONE NEEDS TO PAY!! Something, somewhere, must have gone very wrong in our medical and agricultural worlds for so many people to have been blessed/cursed with obesity.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/over…

On the other hand, if you believe like me that the vast MAJORITY (not all) of obese people are a creation of their own choices regarding food consumption and physical activity, then you will simply acknowledge that you choose to be obese for reasons that you don't have to justify to anyone. You like riding in your car everywhere rather than walking. You like eating a donut for breakfast or hitting up McD's for lunch. And if the result is that you are 5' 9" and weigh 263 pounds, then that's okay, too. But PLEASE don't bore me with the fairytale about how it is simply your "metabolism" that has caused the obesity, because I frankly don't believe that three times as many people have faulty metabolisms today as in 1960.

And by the way, extreme obesity which 5' 9" and 263 pounds qualifies for, went from 0.9% of the population in 1960 to 6.2% in 2006. Again, unless you believe that some environmental evil has caused extreme obesity to jump to 7x its previous level, then you have to conclude that most of those people have made lifestyle choices that get them there. I am not arguing they should be sent to fat camp. They don't have to discuss this personal matter, but it they do I just want them to stop the incessant "metabolism" excuses and acknowledge their choice.
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Posted by Cod Purdy on February 17, 2011 at 9:12 AM · Report this
1343
You're not that fat.
Posted by Krunch on February 17, 2011 at 8:54 AM · Report this
Jubilation T. Cornball 1340
It seems a shame not to get to an even number.
Posted by Jubilation T. Cornball on February 16, 2011 at 4:53 PM · Report this
1339
I'm glad you've decided to accept yourself. No one should feel ashamed about themselves. But also accept that short of some medical condition such as thyroid disease, you are fat because you eat bad food and/or you don't get enough exercise, and only you have control over that.

Once upon a time I was in fantastic shape. I worked out 3-4 days a week and I was careful about what I ate. I didn't kill myself. Just steady workouts and every now and then I did indulge in a pizza or burger, but I did not eat them regularly. Then I got lazy, quit working out, and started making too many runs through the fast food drive-through. Within 2 years I'd packed on 50 lbs. So a few months ago after almost a decade of slugdom, I decided it was time to get off my backside and exercise, and quit shoveling high-fat food into my mouth. Within a month I'd lost 13 lbs. And I'm a woman pushing 50 years of age. It ain't easy, but it can be done.

I'm sorry people treat overweight people badly. I know it doesn't help anything. And I do now what it feels like to know that your thinner friend standing next to you is getting way more attention than you are at happy hour. If you or anyone else is truly happy with your size, more power to you. But just as shaming fat people isn't going to make them lose weight, telling the world to fuck off isn't going to change the fact that most people find fit bodies to be more attractive. If you really intend to be happy in an overweight body, you're going to have to ignore those people, because they aren't going to change.

For me, it became a matter of health. I'm not going for size 4, I'm going for size fit. I don't want to spend the remainder of my life popping pills and/or living with a walker or a wheelchair that I could have prevented, just because I had no will power when I was younger. I'd kind of like to enjoy my retirement. It isn't rocket science. To lose weight, consume fewer calories than you spend. Learn to find pleasure in something besides food and passive entertainment. It is a huge mental exercise, but it is just that, a mental hurdle to conquer before you can conquer they physical one. No food is enjoyable as being healthy feels.
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Posted by JustAnnie on February 16, 2011 at 3:37 PM · Report this
gebbeth 1338
i just want to be apart of this massive amount of comments.
Posted by gebbeth on February 16, 2011 at 3:29 PM · Report this
1337
I'm glad you've decided to accept yourself. No one should feel ashamed about themselves. But also accept that short of some medical condition such as thyroid disease, you are fat because you eat bad food and/or you don't get enough exercise, and only you have control over that.

Once upon a time I was in fantastic shape. I worked out 3-4 days a week and I was careful about what I ate. I didn't kill myself. Just steady workouts and every now and then I did indulge in a pizza or burger, but I did not eat them regularly. Then I got lazy, quit working out, and started making too many runs through the fast food drive-through. Within 2 years I'd packed on 50 lbs. So a few months ago after almost a decade of slugdom, I decided it was time to get off my backside and exercise, and quit shoveling high-fat food into my mouth. Within a month I'd lost 13 lbs. And I'm a woman pushing 50 years of age. It ain't easy, but it can be done.

I'm sorry people treat overweight people badly. I know it doesn't help anything. And I do now what it feels like to know that your attractive friend standing next to you is getting way more attention than you are at happy hour. If you or anyone else is truly happy with your size, more power to you. But just as shaming fat people isn't going to make them lose weight, telling the world to fuck off isn't going to change the fact that most people find fit bodies to be more attractive. If you really intend to be happy in an overweight body, you're going to have to ignore most of the world, because it isn't going to change.

For me, it became a matter of health. I don't want to spend the remainder of my life popping pills and/or living with a walker or a wheelchair just because I had no will power when I was younger. I'd kind of like to enjoy my retirement. It isn't rocket science. To lose weight, consume fewer calories than you spend. Learn to find pleasure in something besides food, TV, and other passive activity. It is a huge mental exercise, but it is just that, a mental hurdle to conquer before you can conquer they physical one. Even losing 13 lbs. feels great. Losing 40 more is going to be amazing.
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Posted by JustAnnie on February 16, 2011 at 3:25 PM · Report this
June 1335
Way to take Dan out of context and make him your scapegoat so you can justify being overweight. Unless you have a medical condition or are on medications with weight gaining side effects, you can absolutely lose the weight. And exercising in itself won't do anything if you aren't doing the right exercises. And 'eating healthy' in our society- all those fad diets and bullshit- can actually lead to more weight gain. Get your exercise program and diet to be the right one for you, and you won't be obese. And lindy, you are a bitch for ragging on Dan for no good reason other than your own ignorance!
Posted by June http://travelingbellydancer.blogspot.com on February 16, 2011 at 1:48 PM · Report this
this guy I know in Spokane 1333
@1330 - Amen to people having no idea about weight. I'm 5'9" and when I got my weight down to 195, I was still high up in the "overweight" category on the BMI chart, but people started telling me it was time to stop dieting because I looked like I had cancer.
Posted by this guy I know in Spokane on February 16, 2011 at 11:15 AM · Report this
1332
Lindy, you are gorgeous. Also, was it not you who received that neighbor complaint about loud sex? So obviously someone else thinks you're gorgeous and sexy too.

But (you knew it was coming) I am a formerly obese - still hit the BMI at "overweight" after losing 75 lbs - and I was miserable at my previous weight. My knees hurt constantly. I couldn't sleep on my stomach (like sleeping on the peak of a mountain) and I love to sleep on my stomach. I was so ashamed to shop that I had nothing but old, poorly fitting clothes, universally in black (oh it's SOOO slimming).

Now I get up at 5 a.m. and work out every day. Seriously, every day. Last year I scored a sweet work out bag from the Y for working out at least 200 days. I rode the STP last year for the first time. And I'm 46 fucking years old. Yes, I totally rock. I'm awesome. My shit don't stank no more (actually it totally stinks worse).

But my point is, I hated myself fat. I tried to work it through and love me the way I was (and congrats for making it there Lindy, cause that journey has it's own challenges). I had PLENTY of reasons for packing on the pounds - I had a kid with cancer for fuck sake, who ended up pretty seriously disabled, and a failed marriage. So lots and lots of reasons for stress eating/no time to take care of me. And as I mentioned, I'm fucking old.

But again, I hated myself fat, even with those quite-legitimate excuses. So if there's someone out there reading this and thinking, geesh I should get on the fat-acceptance thing and stop hating myself. Well, yeah, but if that doesn't work for you (still hate shopping for clothes, still ashamed to go to parties?) then my message is, CHANGE IS POSSIBLE.

Was it hard? Kind of. I didn't start working out every day. I set a 3X a week goal. I only do exercises that I enjoy (for me that's a lot of rowing in and out of the gym, biking out of the gym - gawd I hate the stationery bike - and the eliptical cause it's easy on my knees and I can read a book while I'm standing there, and I love to read).

And I found a diet that worked for me. There's a key: screw the "latest" advice, find what actually works for you, whether that is Mediterranean, Atkins, Vegan, food-diary, obsessive counting of calories or whatever. Learn to LISTEN TO YOUR VERY OWN BODY and figure out what makes you feel good and what you can maintain. And then get moving so you're burning up more calories each day than you put in. Take all those measurements (OH not my waist! That's so humiliating) so you have the total before/after picture and not just the scale. Give it a month. Seriously give it a fucking month of doing it right and then ask yourself, do I feel better? Have those bloody numbers changed?

But don't do any of this for "society" or "Lindy" or "Dan Savage." Do it for yourself. Do it because maintaining your big body is harder emotionally than working to get it off. And if that's not true, then fuck every one and be big and beautiful, again, for yourself.
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Posted by ScreenName on February 16, 2011 at 10:38 AM · Report this
WeeblesWobble 1331
@1330 said: "Other people's bodies are NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS."

Thank you!
Posted by WeeblesWobble http://lipidlove.blogspot.com/2011/02/pointing-out-obvious.html on February 16, 2011 at 9:20 AM · Report this
1330
People just don't seem to get it AT ALL. I bet we could hit 5K on these comments and people still wouldn't get it.

Other people's bodies are NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. It's not your business to police other people's weight. YOU don't get to dictate how other people live their lives and that includes what they eat, what they wear, how much they weigh, etc. If you don't like it, SO WHAT!?! Who put you in charge? Every single policeman or hall monitor on this site needs to look in the mirror and manage their own life. I mean, for example, Robert K who made you the arbiter of what a woman should weigh if she's 5'9"? Your comment is absurd and you obviously know NOTHING about what real people weigh. At my thinnest as an adult (and I am 5'5") I weighed 165 and everyone raved about how thin I was. I looked and felt VERY thin. People thought I weighed 120 pounds. They have NO CONCEPT OF REAL WEIGHT. I wore a size 10. A size 0 is the size of a six year old child, people!!!

No matter how unhealthy obesity is (and no one here, including Lindy, including myself is saying obesity is healthy) it is still NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS UNLESS YOU ARE DISCUSSING YOUR OWN WEIGHT. It is unbelievable how and why people think they have a right to talk to other people about their bodies (maybe, just MAYBE you have that right if you are in a relationship with that person or that person is your child or your parent or other family - but that's a big maybe). I don't care if you lost weight. I don't care if you think it's easy to lose weight. I don't care if it pisses you off that you have to severely restrict your caloric intake and exercise excessively in order to fit into your skinny jeans - you don't get to turn around and take it out on someone who is fat that just happens to be next to you. You need to mind your own fucking business and leave people alone.

We live in a society that has and continues to insist that women's bodies are public and fit for public consumption and comment. They are not. My body doesn't exist for you to look at and get off on. If you don't like how I look FUCK YOU. You have no right to tell me I need to lose weight or exercise to an extent that meet YOUR criteria. Again, who the hell put you in charge? Mind your own damn business. Focus on yourself. Obsess about your own weight.

The only person that needs to worry about what I am eating and how much I exercise and how much I weigh and how healthy or unhealthy I am is ME. You pointing out how fat I am (in your eyes) and how I don't need to be eating whatever it is you see me eating that you think I shouldn't be eating is completely out of line. I've said it so much that I feel like a broken record (and it's the main point of Lindy's article) - shaming people will not solve the obesity crisis. Bullying people, ostracizing people, discriminating against people, railing against people, hating people, lecturing people, yelling at people, etc. etc. etc. WILL NOT SOLVE THE OBESITY CRISIS.

Yes, people need to eat differently and to include more physical activity (not just exercise, but physical activity) in their daily lives. The food industry needs to be completely changed so that selling addictive and poisonous crap for profit is no longer acceptable. We can all agree on that. But beyond that? What people weigh and how healthy people are is extremely personal and can only be dealt with on a personal basis by each individual focusing on themselves. Everyone needs to keep their mouths shut when it comes to talking about other people. If you don't find fat people attractive, don't date or fuck them. If you don't like fat people and think fat is contagious - don't be friends with fat people. Focus on your own life and live your life as you please AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD OR THE UNIVERSE OR WHATEVER LEAVE EVERYONE ELSE ALONE AND LET THEM DO THE SAME.

Why is this such a difficult concept for people to grasp?
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Posted by xina on February 16, 2011 at 8:37 AM · Report this
Principessa Diannessa 1329
@113 - yes. I was working out 1.5 hours to 2 hours per day, eating as a nutritionist prescribed, and I lost weight. I lost 67 lbs, to be exact. Which got me down to 212 lbs. Where I stayed. Then, when I began to GAIN weight doing that exact same thing, I went to the best weight loss doc/endocrinologist in this Metroplex, who told me, based on his multiple tests, that I simply had the Fat Gene. The people in my family are thin/average kids, slightly thick teenagers, and balloon in early adulthood. We CAN lose weight, but never ever enough weight to be considered thin. We can get THINNER, but not thin. I, too, have a thyroid condition. It's like fighting the tides to remain in the slightly-above-200-lbs category for me, but I do feel better and healthy at that weight, and I can fit in airplane seats just fine, eff you very much. I am strong, healthy, smart, funny and compassionate. And I am beautiful, inside and out, at any size.
Posted by Principessa Diannessa on February 16, 2011 at 8:37 AM · Report this
1328
Sorry, Lindy, but somebody who thinks that boiling water poured on a man's penis is "hilarious" -- and then adds insult to injury by referring to the dick in question as very small three different times in only one paragraph -- hasn't really got a moral high ground to stand on vis-a-vis respect for others in print. You've gone all noble on Savage for, in your view, dissing heavy people. What would your reaction have been if he had found, say, pouring boiling water on a breasts to have been hilarious and reveled in the fact that the injured titties were small?

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/penis…
Posted by seeker6079 on February 16, 2011 at 7:52 AM · Report this
igub 1326
Ok. You're fat. Big fucking deal. At least you're not stuck in some Arab country, being killed simply because you want democratic freedoms. Try worrying about a real problem. Ranting about your appearance & particularly how you allow other people make you feel because of your appearance is just stupid shit drivel.
Posted by igub on February 16, 2011 at 2:28 AM · Report this
1322
I disagree
Posted by Jareth Cutestory on February 15, 2011 at 10:57 PM · Report this
1320
If that's the worst Dan wrote then his fat-hate is being exaggerated. I don't think anybody should be made to feel ashamed about things that are beyond their control, and nor have I ever raised another person's weight in order to praise or ridicule them. If asked, however, I will answer that I find very obese people physically unattractive. I also don't see any need to tiptoe around the fact that obesity generally results from consuming more energy than one expends and, as such, it is generally avoidable. Does this make me a fat hater?
Posted by marcodisko on February 15, 2011 at 10:22 PM · Report this
1319
If that's the worst Dan has said in relation to obesity, then his fat-hate is being exaggerated. I have never felt the need to bring up other people's weight - it doesn't concern me - but if asked I would answer yes, I find very overweight people physically unattractive (which is not to say that some slightly bigger guys can't be wildly hot). Noone should be made to feel ashamed of who they are (I grew up gay so I experienced plenty of that) but nor do we need to tiptoe around the fact that obesity generally results from consuming more energy than one expends and, as such, is generally avoidable. Does that make me a fat-hater?
Posted by marcodisko on February 15, 2011 at 10:12 PM · Report this
Juniper Tree 1318
A professional would have spoken to her fellow employee, not written about him in the public sphere.
Posted by Juniper Tree http://walkingthehedge.net/wildgeekhang/ on February 15, 2011 at 9:53 PM · Report this
1315
1313 is unlucky. So here's to luck!
Posted by Michael Wells on February 15, 2011 at 8:38 PM · Report this
1314
Okay...one glass of wine (which really quite fucks me up given my diet and usual consumption) and a cuddly boyfriend later.

@1304...yes, there might have been one random person who lost a lot of weight eating a very limited caloric diet of all junk. There may have been 100 random people who did this, or 1000, or 10,000...fact is, they're still a minority of the population. As I understand it, as advised by my dietitian, GP, and endocrinologist, calorie-for-calorie, good, whole foods make you feel fuller, longer, and have a less devastating impact on your insulin response to eating. While the diet I follow is often called "low carb" or "high protein" it's really just a more natural diet (I don't mean diet as a limiting of what you eat to lose weight, rather the whole of what you consume...your "diet"). I eat carbs...whole grain things with lots of fiber, vegetables, high-fiber fruits, even. I could even eat the orange I wanted, if I was committed to eating the skin and membranes as well, as that's where all the fiber and nutrients are (I have a friend who loves baked, salted orange skins, and if I loved them as well, I could have them). Carbs are over 50% of my "diet." The thing is, each person is different, and other studies have refuted your anecdotal blogger/dietitian. I have friends and family members who can chow down on ice cream and cake and never gain a pound. I have friends who have lost weight on high-carb, low-fat diets. Those things don't work for me. As for the studies (I'm a well-educated social scientist, so my doctors don't just tell me what to do, they share the research behind it with me), one thing that has stuck out at me is that to achieve a comfortable life, people need to eat the same *weight* of food. I can sit and eat a whole pound of broccoli or zucchini or peppers and maintain my weight or even lose a bit. But a pound of cake is a problem. I don't think my "diet" is right for everyone, but Hates Screen Names above is clearly in the same boat that I am, and so I think it's a more common situation than you might think. Therefore, I don't judge...I know how hard it was for me, and I don't wish that on anyone who doesn't take that on themselves. I will support anyone who wants to do it, and if a friend asks me what I did to lose/maintain the weight, I will tell them to take the same steps I did: get a good medical team who's willing to make your diet work for you, and accept that you may never be a size 4 (I'm an 8...that's the thinnest I can be without extreme measures, and so I have learned to love it). But I would never think to snark at someone who I don't know, or pretend to know what was best for them or what they were doing or going through.

@1305 and a little @1304...the response you get from others depends on where you are, who you know, and a whole lot of other factors. Fat, medium, and in-between, I have been treated badly by a number of people in my life. Yes, it does appear that there are complex depression/anxiety/physiological issues with carrying extra weight that can make it hard to lose it because of the lack of energy and willpower. But one cannot deny that there are psychological effects from outside sources. Today, my size 8 ass (I really don't have that much of an ass to speak of, I'm all boobs and muscle at this point) was shunned by someone on public transit. He sat down next to me and made a big show of having to turn his legs out to "fit into the seat." This despite the fact that I fit quite comfortably in one seat on anything...planes, trains, and automobiles. But I'm no supermodel, and he couldn't squeeze into his seat and half of mine to continually grab his smart phone (not as smart as mine...old dork man) out of the back of his waistband (W.T.F...shouldn't you be on that thing constantly, I mean...I had my music playing, was scanning Facebook, and texting and emailing when he sat down...technology deficient loser) and maintain a wide stance. Yes...I DO need that whole one seat...asshole. But that's only one thing. I have been in social situations where cuter, thinner friends will start talking to a group of people, and when/if I show up in that group, the strangers will literally pretend I don't exist (and that's at a horrendously huge size 8...you don't want to know what happened when I was a 16). I have been shunned more times than I care to remember, and the braver of the shunners told me that it was because I was a lard ass. I guess my point is that if it was really about "health" people would be kinder about it. If I have a fat friend who wants to lose weight, I invite them to go for a walk with me and over for a healthy dinner. I send them "awesome recipes" I found online with no comment about their nutritional value. I tell them that they should see a new doctor if theirs makes disparaging, unhelpful comments about their weight (the proper response is "we could improve your health if you lost a little weight...would you be interested in developing a team to make that happen?" Not, as I have been addressed at my current size by doctors "oh, you clearly don't go to the gym"). Can depression lead to weight gain? Absolutely. Can weight cause depression? YES, YES, YES. It's about being helpful and supportive without being an asshole. That's all I'm saying. I have run into a lot of assholes in my life, and they make me want to give up. I'm lucky that I have wonderful, supportive people in my life to balance that these days, but that wasn't always the case, at the size I am now and larger. Ever been in a situation where someone will fuck you but not take you out in public? Yes, I know it sounds like an episode of Sex and the City, but it has really, actually happened to me, and it SUCKS! It makes you want to curl up with a cake...which will never leave you.
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Posted by Ms. D on February 15, 2011 at 8:15 PM · Report this
littlesparrow7 1313
@1300 WeeblesWobble Um, yeah found that site doing a basic Google Search of Grammy fashion.
Posted by littlesparrow7 http://vesper7.tumblr.com/ on February 15, 2011 at 7:47 PM · Report this
XiaoGui17 1311
@#2 Tell it!

I lost 60 lbs last year, and all the haranguing about fat acceptance kept me from doing it sooner. No, society did not tell me I wanted a thinner body. I did want a thinner body. But BBW fans and proud fat folks sure killed my drive to do something about it. For every fat person who bitches about society keeping them from accepting who they are, there's a person who wants to lose weight who's being discouraged from becoming who they want to be.

Also, you're free to love your own body, but nobody else is obligated to love it. So if someone writes to Dan Savage and says "my partner put on 50 lbs," I think it's perfectly reasonable for them to feel annoyed by the bait-&-switch and for Dan to tell them that.
Posted by XiaoGui17 on February 15, 2011 at 7:13 PM · Report this
XiaoGui17 1310
@#2 Tell it!

I lost 60 lbs this year, and all the haranguing about fat acceptance kept me from doing it sooner. No, society did not tell me I wanted a thinner body. I did want a thinner body. But BBW fans and proud fat folks sure killed my drive to do something about it. For every fat person who bitches about society keeping them from accepting who they are, there's a person who wants to lose weight who's being discouraged from becoming who they want to be.

Also, you're free to love your own body, but nobody else is obligated to love it. So if someone writes to Dan Savage and says "my partner put on 50 lbs," I think it's perfectly reasonable for them to feel annoyed by the bait-&-switch and for Dan to tell them that.
Posted by XiaoGui17 on February 15, 2011 at 7:12 PM · Report this
1308
this post = made of awesome.

Dan will, if he's lucky, someday come to some sort of peace with the fact that internalizing some others' gay-hating does not excuse him for perpetuating hatred of other kinds for other people. I hope. For his sake, and his kid's, but mostly for himself.

His response is just a sad regurgitation of various odes on the theme 'I'm hated! So I get to hate, too! It is only fair!' Oh Dan. Grow the fuck up.

And meanwhile, Lindy, you absolutely fucking rocked the debate. Win win win.
Posted by happyhedonist on February 15, 2011 at 6:39 PM · Report this
1305
@1239, you might want to consider that that "being beaten down by the world" is depression from biochemical sources, not from how the world views you. I, of course, don't know your situation, so forgive me if I'm projecting. But I know that for me, I got fat because I was depressed for a totally irrelevant reason. But then once I fixed that, I stayed fat and the fat itself was making me depressed. Only a little bit (i.e. slightly paranoid, barely enough energy to get out of bed, lack of willpower in the face of burgers, not WANTING to be healthy because of slight self-destructive tendencies, etc), but that was enough to make it very hard to fix. It's a tough hole to climb out of -- depression makes you sit in bed and eat and want to hurt yourself, but the only way out of it is to exercise and eat vegetables and be good to yourself. Nobody was ever mean to me -- in fact, I got hit on more with the extra weight (not really a plus as far as I'm concerned, but I'm counting it as a sign that the people were nice instead of mean). Still didn't make me not hate myself, but the hatred was from the depression, not the fat! Who gives a fuck about your weight -- just fix the depression. It makes us all irrational (i.e. our brain incorrectly attributes a cause to the feeling), and it's just plain no fun. For me, the fix was lots of water, SAM-e, all of my daily servings of vegetables (just add them to your diet if you still want to eat unhealthy things), exercise every few days, and more than 6h of sleep a night. It took a year and a half to make these minor changes stick, but now I can make the rational decision about whether I want to lose weight because I am no longer depressed 23/6. I think I will lose a little because my back hurts sometimes, but I don't feel compelled to look like a model. Why? Because I know I'm fine and people who think otherwise are silly and wrong -- it seems outrageous that I'd care what they think. Why do I feel that way? Because I circumvented the biochemical effects the extra fat (if I read the literature correctly, it's about inflammatory effects of no exercise and adipose tissue fucking with your hormone levels) was having on my brain. Fix the root cause -- feeling bad is not because of your appearance, just your biochemistry. And that can be fixed without changing your appearance, if you so choose.
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Posted by Mel on February 15, 2011 at 3:45 PM · Report this
1304
@1298, I don't know how global this is, but didn't some dietitian recently lose weight by eating nothing but junk food -- just a small amount of it (I think around 1K Calories/day)? I think the issue is complicated because you need to have nutrients with your calories or all sorts of processes start crashing on you. But the point (at least in his case) was that it really WAS the number of calories and not the source. Now, someone who's actually a dietician or a biochemist correct me if I'm wrong, but the idea about sources of calories affecting your weight, I think, came from Dr. Atkins and his very vague notion of biochemistry. That doesn't mean the low-carb/low-sugar diets don't work for some people, but it also doesn't mean that it works FOR THE REASON THEY THINK. It might just be that carbs, the way we eat them (with extra sauces and baked densely) have more calories per mouthful than meat. It might also be that sugars taste great and therefore compel us to eat more. Of course, you know better than I what works and doesn't work for you, but I was hoping this might help you think about things you can eat that you might not have considered. If it doesn't, disregard.
Posted by Mel on February 15, 2011 at 3:28 PM · Report this
1303
Lindy, I was already a fan for your reviews of "Sex and the City" and "Get Him to the Greek." Now I admire you as a bold and articulate fatshionista, too! Love the outfit -- way to focus attention on your beautiful ankles! -- and the don't-mess-with-me expression.
Posted by Readerly on February 15, 2011 at 2:46 PM · Report this
1302
Very thought provoking. I can imagine what comments like this would do to someone who feels like they are on the other end of it. I am so happy to hear that you are loving your body more now, and with time and age, I hope it gets better every year. It has for me.

I just wish there was a better debate about paying for children to learn and be creative and confident in this world through education and taxes than the costly health care required because of choices we make that often catch up with us. I hope you get the joy of having one some day and realizing this statement is as ignorant as yours about weight.

So be proud, be confident and be humble. And remember the famous saying 2 wrongs don't make a right.
Posted by wax on wax off on February 15, 2011 at 2:45 PM · Report this
I Hate Screen Names 1301
I'm a dude, 6'0, 190 lbs. The much-maligned BMI states that I'm overweight (25.8), and the truth is that I could stand to lose about 10 lbs.; I just don't care enough to. I have to put a LOT of effort into maintaining my weight as-is, including

1. No desserts, ever. I haven't had ice cream/cake/pie/etc. in years.
2. No snacks, ever. That includes chips, salsa, crackers, cookies, etc. I don't buy them; they're not even in my house.
3. No caloried soda, ever. Coke Zero was a godsend, because I really missed soda and couldn't stomach the Diet labels. Again, I haven't had a caloried soda in years.
4. No meat, ever. I'm a vegetarian.
5. No sauces. I don't say "ever" because they show up at restaurants, but I no longer make any sauce for my home food, and the only thing I put on my salads is salt and pepper.
6. I eat two meals a day. When I tried to eat three like everyone else, I kept gaining weight, so I switched to a "brunch" (really, lunch) and an early dinner.
7. I do strenuous exercise for an hour a day, five days a week. Strenuous = running on the treadmill or heavy lifting. [How do I find time? I don't watch TV. I don't have cable or even an antenna.]

There are a bunch of other tweaks-- I use egg whites instead of eggs, only drink non-fat milk, don't use mayonnaise, etc.-- but those are less significant.

I do have a couple indulgences: wine and cheese. As I get older, my metabolism gets even slower, and I know it's only a matter of time before I have to give up both of those as well. (I've already started cutting back on the cheese.) I figure by the time I'm in my seventies, I'll be living off of water and air. :)

My point is twofold:

1. It is a lot easier for some people to maintain their weight than others, and I seriously doubt that any of the anti-fat crowd have to live with the kind of severe diet I've imposed on myself. So you can STFU about willpower and whatnot. Y'all sound like George Bush insisting that anyone can be rich if they only work hard enough.

2. At this same time, it is possible to control your own weight if you're willing to give up a lot of things that everyone else gets to eat. That doesn't mean everyone should-- it's a lot of work for some of us, and we may have better things to do with our time. But barring the very rare exception, it's possible.
More...
Posted by I Hate Screen Names on February 15, 2011 at 1:44 PM · Report this
WeeblesWobble 1300
@1297 littlesparrow7, I suggest your obsession with http://www.theskinnywebsite.com/ should disqualify you from participating in this discussion. Seriously. What body image issues do *you* have that draw you there? How does Jennifer Hudson losing weight make you feel? Is she a "better" person now than she was before? Would you like her less if she had gained weight? Would you have posted a disparaging comment there? Why?
Posted by WeeblesWobble http://lipidlove.blogspot.com/2011/02/pointing-out-obvious.html on February 15, 2011 at 1:40 PM · Report this
1298
Actually, 1297, the source of the calories is also important for many people. If I ate 1100 calories a day of sugary junk, I would weigh more than I do now - and I'd be really, really hungry. One of the problems that we face in the U.S. is that sugary junk is prolific and cheap, while whole, natural foods are harder to get a hold of and relatively expensive. Though I disagree with those who will say "calorie for calorie, they're X times more expensive," because one does not NEED as many calories of real food as junk, the fact remains that I could totally eat boxed mac & cheese, white pasta, white rice, hot dogs, and soda for way less than I spend on veggies, poultry, fish, and a few high-fiber whole grains.

And, I really want a fucking orange. I haven't had an orange in maybe 5 or 6 years...too much sugar...but I love oranges. My coworker is eating one and between this article/discussion and the smell it's making me cry a little. Sigh...off to retrieve my bag of broccoli from the fridge.
Posted by Ms. D on February 15, 2011 at 1:32 PM · Report this
littlesparrow7 1297
@1296 gbertina

You obviously didn't understand the point. I was responding to a commenter who said that some people are still obese even though they restrict their calories to below 2000 per day. If that were true, then there would be roughly the same number of obese people all over the world.

Clearly, this is not the case. Some obesity statistics: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_ob…

And thus, the fact is...more food and more calories equals a fatter person. It's very simple.

Posted by littlesparrow7 http://vesper7.tumblr.com/ on February 15, 2011 at 1:07 PM · Report this
1296
@whoever said:

"If what you say is true, then many people in third world countries, without adequate food supplies, would also be obese. We don't find this phenomenon to be the case, and therefore it's not true."

Um, there are lots of undernourished fat people in third-world countries. What planet are you living on?

Or did you mean countries where large swaths of the population are dying of catastrophic famine? Because yeah, I take your point, that's an eating model we should all be emulating.
Posted by qbertina on February 15, 2011 at 12:58 PM · Report this
1294
@whoever said:

"If what you say is true, then many people in third world countries, without adequate food supplies, would also be obese. We don't find this phenomenon to be the case, and therefore it's not true."

Um, there are lots of undernourished fat people in third-world countries. What planet are you living on?

Or did you mean countries where large swaths of the population are dying of catastrophic famine? Because yeah, I take your point, that's an eating model we should all be emulating.
Posted by qbertina on February 15, 2011 at 12:55 PM · Report this
1293
I've commented on this topic too much, but 103 stuck out to me...

"try to eat less than 2000 calories"...

Not going to work for all "fat" people, particularly women. My average daily caloric intake is around 1100 calories, mostly raw veggies and lean protein. I also require an hour a day of "light" activity or 30 minutes of "heavy" activity, plus an additional hour of "moderate" activities 3 days a week to maintain 5'5, 152 lbs. I don't appear to weigh as much as I do, though, so I don't get beaten up on as badly as I used to.

I know how hard it can be to lose and maintain weight, I started at 235 lbs. Half the problem is the mental energy to do it just isn't there when you're beaten down by the world. In a way, many if not most fat people CAN'T lose the weight because they physically and mentally don't have the energy to do it. Fat people also probably tend to just be larger naturally, so it requires even more work that they don't have the energy for. I know firsthand that it takes A LOT of energy to stay where I am, and is damn near impossible to lose more (I was a few pounds lighter a while back, but felt terrible), and I have no right to tell other people to put themselves through that. Forget eating healthy, forget moderation. For many fat people, losing weight would be a constant state of denial (hey, like it is for me!)...I don't eat cake on my birthday, and I don't celebrate promotions with a night of binge drinking. I'm lucky I have a boyfriend who can drink an entire bottle of wine by himself, because I hate to waste expensive wines and I can only have 1 glass a night, and we all know that 24 hours is about your limit once opened. I gain weight quickly, so when I travel for business I'm always asking too many questions about sauces and ingredients...2 weeks off would be disastrous (I could gain 10 or 15 lbs easily). I find it so hard to dine out that I often just bring something with me to the restaurant, so I don't have to sit at home alone (yes, I could ask for a salad with plain grilled chicken and vinegar, but (a) restaurants hate when you do that, and (b) I'm never sure they didn't sneak something else in the food).

So, yeah, not so easy. I'm not asking you to find fat, or muscular, or curvy, or big-boned, or any other type of person attractive, I'm asking you to keep your fucking opinion to yourself unless explicitly asked for it...kthanks!
More...
Posted by Ms. D on February 15, 2011 at 12:45 PM · Report this
littlesparrow7 1292
@1291 Brian

Awesome, awesome post! I especially love this, in response to Lindy's view that fat people are oppressed:

"Truly oppressed people lack choice. People of color can’t wash the pigment off their skin. Gay people can’t stop being attracted to the same sex. Mentally or physically disabled people can’t grow new brains or legs or arms. However, as fat people, we DO have power over our own bodies. We may be shamed, but to say we are oppressed is an insult to those who are really oppressed, who do not, in any way, have the ability to change. Lindy shouldn’t make oppression a buzz word in her personal struggle with fatness."
Posted by littlesparrow7 http://vesper7.tumblr.com/ on February 15, 2011 at 12:01 PM · Report this
1291
An opposing view from a fat person: http://brianwithani.com/2011/02/15/hello…

Posted by I used to comment as Brian until some asshole stole my name on February 15, 2011 at 11:36 AM · Report this
1290
Lindy!
Funnel all your anger into hitting the treadmill darling!
Posted by witch_hammer on February 15, 2011 at 11:33 AM · Report this
1289
Feeling good about your own body is a great accomplishment. I myself still struggle with that to a small degree, even though I don't judge others for how they look. But here's a trick that might help others who don't look like supermodels for whatever reason (not weight alone): TURN OF THE GODDAMN TV! Since I quit Charter for the horrible price and customer service, I have given fewer and fewer thoughts to how I look. I see people who are "normal" i.e. not on TV, and they interact with me and are human and beautiful. Being away from TV stereotypes makes it obvious that they are just that: stereotypes. I don't internalize them any more because I don't see stereotypes 5 hours a day! I don't know what it is about people, but when we watch fake things on TV or online, we act as if it's reality, even those of us who know it's fake! Just stop watching it and it will no longer be your reality. It's fun out here in the real world!
Posted by Mel on February 15, 2011 at 11:26 AM · Report this
1288
Q: If she isn’t ashamed of her body then why would anything anyone said be “hurtful”?

A: She is ashamed of her body.
Posted by Seatt on February 15, 2011 at 11:24 AM · Report this
1287
So, I know that no-one is probably reading down this far but I want to throw my two cents in anyway. I think that people genuinely suck when it comes to being sensitive to people's appearance... I also think that this is something that you just have to learn to deal with.

I have been on both extremes of the weight scale, I was a chunky-monkey as a kid AND an anorexic adult. For my bigger years I was tormented, so I stopped eating, lost a ton of weight. The thing is, I got tormented even WORSE when I was skinny. My bigger friends (ones I commiserated with when I was bigger) now made fun of my eating habits, about how clothes fit me now and even though I never said a word against their weight... I was now one of "those" skinny people.

I think that its great that Lindy loves her body but calling out a co-worker (he is NOT her boss) publicly is childish and petty. It completely ruins her credibility for me. She did not give the context for the comments and spun them to fit her needs. I agree with Dan, rolls of fat are gross when people are not wearing clothes that fit them. It has nothing to do with thin or fat... its about fit. My best friend is a big girl (and I think she is stunning) but growing up we were the same size. Its something she has never got out of, she is very size tag conscious. I went from a size 16 to close to a 4 and she tries to fit into current my size clothing... in her head we are still the same size even though she is currently a size 16. She get rolls, and it looks gross on her... just like it would look gross on me if I tried slipping into a size 0. When people wear the correct size... no rolls! Dan was talking about fashion in one of those quotes!

For people who are ragging on Dan for his opinion shame on you! Its his opinion, he can say. I don't always agree with what he says, but I will defend his right to say it. He is a sex advice columnist, not an advocate for every issue on the planet. He doesn't HAVE to be kind or sensitive to every issue on the planet. I can even understand how frustrating the issue must be for him. He's gay, its a matter of genes- he was born gay, will die gay and will be continually persecuted for being gay. Its like being persecuted for being tall or short. It must be very frustrating to see people get upset about an issue that is fixable. Weight is fixable, its controllable (its not always easy to control but you can control it). There are diets, exercise, will-power, surgeries and medication that can help you adjust you weight... being gay is not the same. It must be incredibly frustrating to watch people suffer for something that they can solve.

Being over-weight can lead to a lot of health problems, its a fact. It increases the chances of getting so many health problems, just like smoking, alcohol, and other addictions (and I'm aware that not every over-weight person is a food addict). He may not have sugar-coated it, but he has an opinion and reasons behind that opinion, and people can either take or leave it.

Does everyone find fat attractive.... no but people also don't always find thin, blond, brunette, short, tall, big boobs, small boobs attractive either. Aesthetics are about PERSONAL taste. If your bent out of shape because someone doesn't find you attractive, tough. There are others out there who do, stop being so sensitive and go out and live your life.
More...
Posted by star0girl on February 15, 2011 at 11:22 AM · Report this
1285
Q: If she isn’t ashamed of her body then why would anything anyone said be “hurtful”?

A: She is ashamed of her body.
Posted by Seatt on February 15, 2011 at 11:17 AM · Report this
1284
You go girl. I am 200 pounds, at 48 years of age and my own husband doesn't find me attractive anymore. But, I figure that is his problem. I got heavier when I had my 6 year old late in life, and he is a joy to me. Also, I went through chemotherapy at this weight, and was told more often tthan ever in my life (even more than when I was young and light) how beautiful I was, I began to realize that I really am beautiful. That it wasn't just people trying to be polite. That they mean it. So, the hell with judgment. I also live in a suburb with a lot of unworking moms in jogging suits and blonde pony tails (even at my age), and I like being different. I would like being thinner, but not that much. Not enough to not like myself the way I am too. Thanks for your post Lindy. You go, girl.
Posted by Tracy Tiger on February 15, 2011 at 11:15 AM · Report this
1281
Okay, you've come to the realization that you are OWNING your weight...but, I mean, just because you work for The Stranger doesn't mean you are entitled to 1) explain that in some beat up fashion, and then 2) defend it into the ground, and THEN 3) be a bitch to Dan, and ramble a little more because you are "Lindy West." I get it. I do. You want to the "I love you so much Lindy West" parade. But this is an abuse to this paper. It's hideous to demand respect via your professional (not so professional) job. With that said, go back to writing shitty movie reviews. People might love you because you're snarky, angry, demanding, opinionated, or x, y, and z. But I just think you're cashing in on something that many a fat lady can't. And I don't say that to knock weight. Fat, as #1277 said, IS fine. That's not the issue. The issue is your vehicle. Way to use the system, for no reason other than to make yourself feel a little better, or a little worse. Whatever, West.
Posted by kimhoffman on February 15, 2011 at 11:09 AM · Report this
1280
Just Jeff, some of your equivalences are just flat out *factually* wrong, and that's the part that those beating up Dan and defending Lindy can't get right. The bigots here may not be the ones that you think, apparently.
Posted by Ianto S. on February 15, 2011 at 11:07 AM · Report this
1279
Dan Savage is a saint.
Posted by witch_hammer on February 15, 2011 at 11:07 AM · Report this
Just Jeff 1278
Dan doesn't get it.

"Lardass" = "fucking faggot".

Equating fat with "disease" = equating gay with AIDS.

Comparing fat with "choice" = comparing gay with "choice".

Dan Safvage is a fucking bigot.
Posted by Just Jeff on February 15, 2011 at 10:47 AM · Report this
Jesus 1277
@1272 GOLD

Fat is fine. The real shit here is UGLY discrimination.
Posted by Jesus on February 15, 2011 at 10:23 AM · Report this
1276
Lindy,

I read your post, then Dan's, and then about 500 or so of the comments. Now it's all the way down to about number 1275 so the chance of you and Dan seeing this is fairly slim, but I felt compelled to respond:

Lindy, you go girl!

Dan, you just don't get it! Your response has even generated even more hateful comments directed at Lindy.
Posted by kmq1 on February 15, 2011 at 10:15 AM · Report this
1275
Lindy, I think it's great that you feel good about your body and that you don't want to be shamed. I, too, agree that shame is never a positive motivator for any sort of change or acceptance, and both of those things must come from within. I do take issue with the link you included to the "thin privilege checklist". While I am well aware that, like any privilege, there are things that thin people take for granted everyday, I think this checklist unrightfully ignores the pressure even thin girls feel all of the time to achieve perfection in their bodies. "If I pick up a magazine or watch T.V. I will see bodies that look like mine that aren’t being lampooned, desexualized, or used to signify laziness, ignorance, or lack of self-control." Nope. That's part of the whole problem. The fact that the skinny models in magazines DON'T look like the average girl and are often weights/sizes that are unattainable is what drives many young girls to drastic measures. Bulimia and anorexia are also a big problem in this country, and much of that is due to obsessive focus on body image. The "thin privilege checklist" seems to think that if you are thin, you don't think about your weight or worry about how others see your body. That is false. Many thin girls look in the mirror and see a fat person. I know that fat people are probably like "well, boo frikken hoo", but that's still a problem. It's a problem that our society has created an attitude around body images that prevents a lot of people from feeling comfortable with the skin they're given.

So yes, I think we should lay off "fat" people. I also think we should lay off thin people. And medium-sized people, for that matter. Weight should not be about image, it should be about health, and that applies to everyone.
More...
Posted by CAPSLOCK on February 15, 2011 at 9:49 AM · Report this
BLUE 1272
Fat AND obnoxious - a winning combination.
Posted by BLUE on February 15, 2011 at 8:32 AM · Report this
strozyk 1271
Love, love, love, love, love. It's about time. I read Dan's response first, in fact, and whoo baby, that's some defensive action going on. I then came here and read this -- seriously, THIS is what he's all worked up about?

Thank you, Lindy, for absolutely making my day.
Posted by strozyk on February 15, 2011 at 8:25 AM · Report this
1270
... And you're raising your voice to say that it should be more socially acceptable to be fat. Why do we want a society in which more people are fat? Think about the waste of food and the waste of dollars spend on health care. The way you got this way is NOT good for you. You are a valued, worthwhile person just like anyone else, and each person in the world has problems in one way or another. But don't pretend that everyone should admire you for being fat.
Posted by jingcooper on February 15, 2011 at 8:16 AM · Report this
1269
... And you're raising your voice to say that it should be more socially acceptable to be fat. Why do we want a society in which more people are fat? Think about the waste of food and the waste of dollars spend on healthcare. The way you got this way is NOT good for you. You are a valued, worthwhile person just like anyone else, and each person in the world has problems in one way or another. But don't try to pretend that it's okay to be fat.
Posted by jingcooper on February 15, 2011 at 8:08 AM · Report this
rodolfo 1268
The thing is... I've been overweight my entire life. It's been Dan's columns that helped me realized that there is a huge market of guys who want to sleep with overweight guys like me. And I let them.
Posted by rodolfo on February 15, 2011 at 8:04 AM · Report this
starshine_kitten 1267
I love everything about this post except for the Dan bashing. I had a similar "i'm fat and I love my self anyway" moment of rage about two months ago and man it felt good. But when I was done with it, I picked myself up, went to the gym and stopped drinking so damn much liquor. I'm slowly starting to lose weight, which I have to admit I'm pretty happy about!
It's true that fat people do not need shaming (you hear that dad?), and I have to say that as an avid listener and reader of Dan for the past five years, I have never gotten the impression that he is shaming fat people.
So keep on Lindy, I just discovered your blog and I believe I will visit it regularly, but please take it easy on Dan, he doesn't have as thick a skin as you and I, you know, cause he is obsessed with being so damn thin.
Posted by starshine_kitten on February 15, 2011 at 8:04 AM · Report this
1263
A small piece of possibly helpful information for those who are overweight but have had no success shedding the pounds despite tremendous amounts of effort:

As most already know, being overweight puts people at risk for sleep apnea. What fewer people know is that sleep apnea makes it much, much more difficult to lose weight. It may be worth getting a sleep study if you are one of these people, especially if you awaken at night a bunch, or if your sleeping partner says you snore, or if you wake up feeling headachey and poorly rested, etc.

In sum, sleep apnea is a beast and makes life totally miserable and also causes a litany of health problems, including weight gain / retention, so it may be worth considering a sleep study if you think you might have symptoms of it.
Posted by MD in Philly on February 15, 2011 at 3:41 AM · Report this
1262
Lindy, I know it's been said and said, but you are beautiful and brilliant and you absolutely rock.
Posted by Kitchenwitch on February 15, 2011 at 12:23 AM · Report this
1259
@1241: My comments were simply meant to make you think, not to draw you into an argument. Apologies for making you feel hounded--it's my nature to reply to someone who continues to address me specifically.

I'm sorry to hear about your biopsy results. My mother didn't survive hers, so hopefully you'll accept my best wishes.
Posted by medeii on February 14, 2011 at 11:10 PM · Report this
1258
@1255: Wow. Just wow.
Posted by fallen angel on February 14, 2011 at 10:38 PM · Report this
Just Jeff 1256
Lindy,

Seriosly hon.

You are LOVED.

Not just by douchebag "fanboys" like me, but by thouands (if not hundreds of thousands who haven't yet had the pleasure of the introduction to your intellect AND beauty) who have yet to appreciate you.

Dan S. isa righteous target - but just a symbol. Reading his response - he doesn't get it yet. Buthe will (God wiling).

Lindy - keep it up sweetie. You are loved, and you are RIGHT.

And you are BEAUTIFUL.

Damn.
Posted by Just Jeff on February 14, 2011 at 9:55 PM · Report this
1255
Dear Ms. West,
Over the years of you being at the Stranger I have tried my damnedest to stay away from anything that has been written by you. For the most obvious of reasons really, you are a crap writer.
I have heard from my various acquaintances in the whole of Seattle who have told that there is this article by someone that was posted on the SLOG that, supposedly, was, well, in their words, 'Awesome!' Finally after many confrontations of people asking me to if I've read that 'Awesome!' article I finally have broken down and read it.
It's crap!
I'm not going to sugarcoat this for you darling, or the little druggie friends who have helped you up to this pinnacle, because this is a very defining and true statement coming from me.
I don't care. About you. Your fat. Or the size of whatever burger you are about to eat! Really. Seriously.
Honestly, I was anorexic as a kid, I hit thirty and I gain weight rapidly enough that I was put at an extremely bad health risk. Since that time I've lost weight and still struggle to lose even more to stay healthy. But, sorry, unlike some that will remain unnamed I do not flit about proclaiming how angry I am over how others are ridiculing me about it. Nor do I see myself in any contextual sense trying to provoke an outrageous fight with another staff member where I work...please, that's just suicide.
While we are on the subject, because I'm being so honest and all, I've been sitting back quietly and watching your meteoric career with disgust while those around you flounder at the Stranger. True the Stranger isn't what I would call the most stellar piece of journalistic integrity in the whole of the U.S. but I would like to think that it would have enough integrity at some editorial level to recognize the plagiarism involved with your work.
Oh, by the way, before you go off on whatever conniving little cover up you would have about how you didn't know you sounded like others staff members, please keep in mind that I have been reading the Stranger a hell of a lot longer than you and I do recognize the various amounts of verbiage and sayings you've lifted over the years from said staff members.
You are a plagiarist. And not a very smart one at that.
AND, I am NOT the only one who sees it. So, you keep on telling yourself, and others, that you are an original. (I've read what you call 'original', you don't have an original voice and only started getting noticed when you began lifting work from other Stranger staff!) It all comes back to you being a crap writer.
In closing Ms. West. You are a fat plagiarist with very little integrity other than being able to drink enough alcohol to look cool in the eyes of those who pay you.
BITE ME!
More...
Posted by white queen B on February 14, 2011 at 9:50 PM · Report this
Enjua 1254
First of all, I loved Lindy's post, because it was clever and addressed the effects of shaming and the way that most people act like they know all about the health status of an overweight person and what that person should do fix emself, simply by looking at em. However, I've read a great many of these comments, and I think that this thread is missing a really important point.

Lindy's post is as much about gender as it as about fatness, and no-one, including Lindy and Dan, seem to acknowledge or address this. I think it was brave and brilliant of Lindy to post her picture and her weight, but not because she's fat: because she's female. In this culture, women are expected to be physically attractive to guys and to be skinny (and dress femininely, which Lindy clearly does), in order to be worthwhile. In other words, Lindy's shame came from how this society treats women more than from how this society treats fat people.

Yes, this society needs to be more compassionate to overweight people, and we need to emphasize healthy eating and exercise more than appearance, but the soul-crushing expectations that Lindy is so excellently refuting are, in fact, more about gender expectation than about weight.
Posted by Enjua on February 14, 2011 at 9:43 PM · Report this
chirashi 1253
Blah, blah, blah.
Posted by chirashi on February 14, 2011 at 9:08 PM · Report this
Cory 1252
I'm with you, Lindy. Be yourself and love it. Don't let anyone think you need to go on a diet.
Posted by Cory on February 14, 2011 at 8:59 PM · Report this
littlesparrow7 1251
@1244 joshk

Awww thanks, that's so sweet! Sometimes it felt like no one was really reading anything, so that means a lot! You made my effort at keeping up with this thread and writing responses like a crazy person (while sick at home with a really bad cold) worth every second. :)

Cheers!
Posted by littlesparrow7 http://vesper7.tumblr.com/ on February 14, 2011 at 8:55 PM · Report this
1249
Why is Dan Savage the enemy? Why not the totally effed Western food production system that makes it cheaper and easier to eat crap? Why not the companies that are subsidized by our tax dollars to put empty calories, salt, and fat into processed junk foods that are marketed to kids the same way cigarettes were in the past? Being concerned about the obesity epidemic does not make someone a fat-hating bigot. It IS being empathetic and compassionate and I can't see how anyone functioning in today's society with half a brain would not be concerned about it.

I think the way you turn obesity purely into an emotional, personal issue is ridiculous, and clearly does nothing to solve the problem. It is a political issue, and the 30% (or is it now 40, or 50 percent?) of obese Americans are being had by corporations who want to addict them, and bleed them of their money and their sense of having the choice and the will to change the way they eat. It is misguided and absurd to direct your anger over our society's really complicated, destructive relationship with food onto DS.
Posted by nic42 on February 14, 2011 at 8:17 PM · Report this
1248
Why is Dan Savage the enemy? Why not the totally effed Western food production system that makes it cheaper and easier to eat crap? Why not the companies that are subsidized by our tax dollars to put empty calories, salt, and fat into processed junk foods that are marketed to kids the same way cigarettes were in the past? Being concerned about the obesity epidemic does not make someone a fat-hating bigot. It IS being empathetic and compassionate and I can't see how anyone functioning in today's society with half a brain would not be concerned about it.

I think the way you turn obesity purely into an emotional, personal issue is ridiculous, and clearly does nothing to solve the problem. It is a political issue, and the 30% (or is it now 40, or 50 percent?) of obese Americans are being had by corporations who want to addict them, and bleed them of their money and their sense of having the choice and the will to change the way they eat. It is misguided and absurd to direct your anger over our society's really complicated, destructive relationship with food onto DS.
Posted by nic42 on February 14, 2011 at 8:14 PM · Report this
Just Jeff 1246
Lindy West should run for office. Something like AWESOME GODDESS OF THE ENTIRE FUCKING UNIVERSE!!

Love you, Lindy and love this article. Sent it to my teenage daughter. Well said.

Now - please pose nude. Pretty please?
Posted by Just Jeff on February 14, 2011 at 7:43 PM · Report this
Canuck 1245
Wow. Now Dan is the "King of the Gays"(?!) and should only issue politically correct directives, and should apologize retroactively for ever insulting anyone? So, I guess DTMFA is off the table from now on?
Posted by Canuck on February 14, 2011 at 7:41 PM · Report this
1244
@ Littlesparrow7

I created an account just to let you know that you are awesome. This is one of the very few times that I've ever come away from a comments section with a positive experience. There's nothing like a reasoned, fact-based discourse. Cheers.
Posted by joshk on February 14, 2011 at 7:24 PM · Report this
1242
Not one comment from Lindy, here or on Slog, all day. Only posts from Dan are in response to this. Only 30 posts total from others all day on Slog. Seems like things are kind of tense. I miss Dan.
Posted by Beth on February 14, 2011 at 6:44 PM · Report this
kim in portland 1241
Medeii,

Thank you again for yet another unsolicited opinion. Will you do me the favor of restraining your unsolicited opinions, your criticisms, your proclamations of the supposed mass hurt I have caused, your demand that I negotiate the meaning of everything I say, your accusations that I'm attempting to defend any person, or justify any persons words and/or behavior? Because, I'm not. And, the fact that I have told you numerous times that I am not defending Savage or anyone else, should have been sufficient. I find your insistence that you are better qualified to understand what I'm saying or thinking very hurtful. Kindly keep in mind are not my judge nor are you my editor. I have never asked for your opinion or criticism, you have decided to nominate yourself for the job. Please, kindly keep in mind that I have as much right as you do to ask questions or state opinions on any thread. I am not obligated to negotiate the meanings of anything I post with you, either. Kindly keep in mind that your opinions are not facts, too.

There are more than enough individuals who are honestly seeking to cause hurt feelings on this thread, try hounding one of them. Honestly, I've had enough and truthfully you are starting to remind me of bully who used a lot of nice sounding words before beating the crap out of me. I was never good enough for that person, and you have successfully convinced me that I can't say anything to please you. Thus, I think it best if you just refrain from attempting to 'correct' anything about me and I'll vacate this thread.

And, I'm truly sorry for your hurt feelings on this thread. I'm sorry that my comments seem to have added to your hurt feelings. Which is the only reason I've come up with as to why you keep hounding me. (Perhaps, if I was well I could come up with a more creative reason to your liking?) I never seek to hurt people's feelings and I'm more than happy to apologize when they tell me that I have hurt them. So I am sorry. I hope you find healing and peace.
More...
Posted by kim in portland http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/11/fast-paced_video_provides_a_fu.html on February 14, 2011 at 6:21 PM · Report this
Cynic Romantic 1239
littlesparrow @1229: Firstly, let me appologise unreservedly for calling you a "dopy bint". That was completely uncalled for, out of line, and mean, and I am very sorry I said it.

To me, the article reflects Lindy's absolutely emotional overload (for want of a more accurate term) from 28 years of abuse from other people regarding the size and shape of her body. It is that verbal and emotional abuse, and the associated presumption that accompanies it, which she is rejecting, not the medical risk of obesity per se. These are excellent points, but they are almost completely irrelevant to the point of the article (IMO).

Also, I don't think Dan should take this thread too personally. There is obviously a lot of pent up resentment and emotion being expressed here, and the fact that his posts triggered it does not make him responsible for the conditions that created it.
Posted by Cynic Romantic on February 14, 2011 at 6:13 PM · Report this
Jaymz 1238
I like @1232 saying Dan is a role model, like it or not, and that his quick witty and sarcastic slog posts will be mined for nuggets to be taken out of context and used against issues dear to his heart (and my heart, too). But, I don't want him to change - just be yourself, Dan and that is good enough.

Remember that tennis match that went on for, like, days? Surrrr-eal! This ls like looking at one of those weird GIFs that, if you stare at it long enough, you think it will jump the groove and come to an end, but it never does and you can't stop starring.....
Posted by Jaymz on February 14, 2011 at 6:09 PM · Report this
Skeptika 1237
Here's another anecdotal example for you, not to be generalized in any way, and to only be applied to my own individual case, okay? I am overweight, and ashamed, and yet I feel no judgment towards anyone dealing with weight issues. I really don't, so please do me a favor and believe me. And yet I hate my own body, and find it unpleasant to look at and be in. Is it because I internalized some kind of silly size 0 ideal? hell no. I want to be a size 10, or an 8, as I was three years ago. I felt great then, I don't feel good now.

Here's why I hate my body: I can't run as far and as fast as I did when I was not carrying extra weight. I pop out of my clothes. I have less sexual desire. I feel less attractive. I already feel accused of not "loving myself" enough or accepting myself as I am. I don't, and I can't, because my stomach roll makes my stomach turn.

I want to be healthy, and athletic. I also like being desired and thought of as attractive. It's not the primary driver of my existence (that would be my job and love for my husband). But I also want to be attractive again.

I'm 20-30 lbs overweight and it's exclusively my fault. I do have Hashimoto's thyroid (hypo), which in theory makes it difficult for me to lose weight, but I take a hormone for it and keep it under control.

So here's the grand explanation for my fatness: I overeat. I eat 3500 calories on some days. Sometimes more.

When I go down to 2000-2500 calories a day, I lose weight. That's plenty of food for most humans, but I crave more. So I can't keep up the progress I make, and I hate myself for it; I don't judge anyone else, I just judge myself.

I wanted to add my experience to this thread, to alert some of you to cases like mine for which the only explanation is overeating, coupled with not exercising. Like those overweight people here who eat 1500 calories and can't lose weight, my experience matters too: I eat too much, and I hate myself for it, while, shockingly, not having any judgment at all for other overweight or obese people. This attitude exists, and now you know.
More...
Posted by Skeptika on February 14, 2011 at 6:09 PM · Report this
Rubykelp 1235
Let’s cut the shit — “health” has nothing to do with it. This society deems fat people unattractive, and calling someone “fat” is like calling them ugly. Actually, it’s worse, because being ugly could just be the result of losing the genetic lottery, while being fat is something that you did to yourself, and how dare you let yourself go like that? It’s not just about aesthetics, it’s about moral failure. And it’s particularly bad for a woman to get fat, because we are still the ornaments of society, and required to make everyone’s landscape as pretty as possible. How dare we not stay within acceptable ranges to make dicks hard!
Posted by Rubykelp on February 14, 2011 at 5:44 PM · Report this
1234
@1229

Lindy does not care about her weight, but does care how people treat her/react to her/judge her based around it. I explain it as, if you stuck her on a desert island, she would probably never consider her weight. She defines herself in other ways, thus where she gets the "I don't care" attitude. However, stick her back in society, and suddenly people react to her in a certain way based on something she herself doesn't even think about (Like if people suddenly started being really mean to you cause you have long toes. You don't define yourself by your large toes, and after a while you'd probably start feeling kind of defensive/upset that people are defining you by such a strange arbitrary physical thing.) She cares about THAT, about the attitudes and misunderstanding surrounding her weight.

I don't think these two emotions cancel each other out. We can have complex emotions, especially when it comes to weight.
Posted by Martychan on February 14, 2011 at 5:43 PM · Report this
dirac 1233
@1228 So, your solution to stopping the cycle of treating a class of people with hate is to call someone a "dopy pint" (amongst a million others) on a comment thread?
Posted by dirac on February 14, 2011 at 5:37 PM · Report this
1232
Maybe you don't want comments, Dan, but you're going to get them anyway:

I bet that you're feeling a little stunned by Lindy's post and by the outpouring of support for her (coupled with the accusations of bullying being directed at you).

It's my belief that the reason so many people are challenging/accusing you now is that your role in the world has changed so much recently. A few years ago, you were essentially an entertainer, and like Simon Cowell, being a bit of an asshole was part of your schtick.

But now, with all your media presence regarding the gay marriage debate, and especially with the creation of the It Gets Better Project. you've become so much more than that. Whether you intended this or not, you are now the most prominent public face of the LGBT rights movement. This is a great power, and you have the intelligence, creativity, and persistence to wield this power.

But there's a downside for you personally. Being a famous leader in a controversial movement puts you under the microscope - there is going to be a lot more attention paid to your words and actions (both present and past). Any indications of hypocrisy or bullying on your part are going to be noticed and remembered more than they ever were before.

The other downside is that you're stuck with the responsibility of representing the LGBT community - so when you do or say something sketchy, it reflects on the rest of the community. When you, our mouthpiece, say something intolerant, the foes of gay rights will use it to attack all gay people.

For example, let's say that you have occasion to go head to head with Sarah Palin in a TV interview or something. Sure - you're smart and articulate and funny enough to debate circles around her (not to mention having facts and reason on your side...). But, she's raising a child with Down syndrome, and you're on record as calling people with Down syndrome "tards" then ignoring the people who call you on it. Do you really think Palin's supporters aren't going to be able to dig that up, or that they're going to put in the context of non-hateful things you've said over the years? And do you really think you're going to have the moral high ground? Or, are people just going to draw the conclusion that gays are intolerant, and only care about bullying when the victims are gay?

It's not exactly fair that you have to shoulder the responsibility of being examined so closely or having to be a role model ... but it's a reality, the price of being famous. If you choose to embrace your destiny as king of the gays, you owe it to the rest of us to watch your words and apologize when you should. Otherwise, you're hurting our position in the world, rather than helping it.

So: stop bullying fat people, and don't tell me you haven't - both the outright namecalling ("LARDASS") and the dog whistles ("Ban fat marriage") are on the internet, and posting non-hateful columns doesn't make the hateful ones go away. Stop calling people tards, retarded, or leotarded. Stop insulting women you don't like by calling them cunts, and stop insulting men you don't like by calling them transexual. And, apologize to the people you've insulted. It won't make you lose face, it'll make you look like somebody big enough to admit and grow from his mistakes. And it will make you a more powerful advocate for gay rights.
More...
Posted by rhymeswithlibrarian on February 14, 2011 at 5:37 PM · Report this
onion 1231
you all think Savage is really going to jump into a cage full of 1228 tigers (and counting)? the minute he dangles a toe into this thread you'll all chew it off. no matter what he says.
Posted by onion on February 14, 2011 at 5:36 PM · Report this
1230
@1206, you're right, "cherry picking" isn't the issue. Except that it sort of is - to me, posting those specific columns seems to be his defense...here are examples of me being sorta supportive, so therefore you can't say I'm sometimes derisive...which is bullshit. I don't think Lindy would deny cherry picking her examples either...I just think in his case, it's not a valid defense, whereas in her case, it absolutely is the way to support her statements. (Examples of him being derisive prove that he's sometimes derisive, whereas examples of him supporting fat people only prove that sometimes he supports fat people...they don't at all show that he often is not doing so.)

And that posting closed-comment collections of these columns is pretty immature. How is that "leaving it alone" to do that? It seems defensive and nothing more...the point to him seems to be, don't be mean to Savage (not, oh, maybe see that he's been making hurtful statements and actually examine his own actions...Lindy linked specific examples, so if he's not going to address those examples, I'm not sure what he gains by responding at all right now).
Posted by g on February 14, 2011 at 5:29 PM · Report this
littlesparrow7 1229
@1228 Cynic Romantic

I've left many comments here, many in response to what others were saying...so one comment seen by itself can be horribly taken out of context.

First of all, I began posting on this article because of Lindy's words, specifically the fact that she doesn't care what causes fatness and doesn't seem to see it as a problem at all. (Though some have commented that her strong emotion displayed throughout the article shows that she really does have a problem with her weight. If she didn't she wouldn't be so fightin' mad.) I then commented in response to what others were saying. So many people, on both sides of the argument, are raising excellent points. Many of us are sharing personal stories. I think it helps. I also think it's best we all try to treat each other with respect.
Posted by littlesparrow7 http://vesper7.tumblr.com/ on February 14, 2011 at 5:27 PM · Report this
Cynic Romantic 1228
good vagina @ 1128, Amen. I had the same thought as your post expresses, just before I read it. Thanks for expressing it so eloquently.

To add to 1188 above: It's about how you and others consistantly miss the point: That fat people are tired of being society's punching bags for the perceived shortcomings of their body shape. The only thing you need do is understand that point to the best of your ability, because (as with gay people, old people, disabled people, etc, etc) the problem (addressed in Lindy's blog post) is not in the physical actuality of a person's body, but in a society full of people's attitude toward that attribute and the group of people who are perceived to share it. You, and the other million people in these comments missing the point, are addressing a completely different problem; that of the effect of obesity on health.
You are free to have all the opinions you want, but unsolicited advice is rarely appreciated (including this piece, no doubt).
Posted by Cynic Romantic on February 14, 2011 at 5:05 PM · Report this
dirac 1226
@1214 Sure. I am sorry if I came off as disparaging. There's plenty of dimensions to this issue and it's VERY complex--note that the links I gave you have a conclusion and a rebuttal using similar methodology.
Posted by dirac on February 14, 2011 at 5:04 PM · Report this
hydrozoa 1225
@1220: cheers. best.
Posted by hydrozoa on February 14, 2011 at 5:03 PM · Report this
1224
@1218 It's not about health because skinny =/= healthy and big =/= unhealthy.

Posted by kersy on February 14, 2011 at 4:58 PM · Report this
1223
@1210

Except the picture you're linking to isn't a picture of carbs. The burger bun is a carb. But the burger itself is meat/protein, the cheese is dairy, the bacon is also meat/protein... So are you saying if she ate everything else but the bun you'd stop judging what she chooses to put in her mouth? Or did you actually mean the entire thing, in which case you should specify besides just "stop eating carbs."

And YEAH, I'm being intentionally dense to demonstrate how stupidly simplistic your attitude on nutrition is.
Posted by Martychan on February 14, 2011 at 4:57 PM · Report this
Janessa 1222
*glomps*

Well put. Thank you!
Posted by Janessa on February 14, 2011 at 4:54 PM · Report this
1221
@1217 If you can't get the difference between what Lindy was doing in that piece and what Dan does regularly, there's really no use arguing this with you.
Posted by Lo on February 14, 2011 at 4:53 PM · Report this
1220
Seriously Lindy, if you just cut carbs and do whatever works for my specific genetic make up, you will be have a socially acceptable body and be attractive to men. And I can just ignore your entire post and continue to pretend that that's the only thing that matters and any protestations are consent to fat shame you because no one, esp women, are allowed to ever not care about what other people think of their body.

Posted by kersy on February 14, 2011 at 4:50 PM · Report this
1219
Dear Lindy,
I was in internet love with you before I ever saw you, but now you should know you 110% fit the profile of "lady I would like to marry." If I lived in Seattle I would totally stalk you. Why are men so afraid of women's bodies? As a raging homo, I find myself more tolerant to other people who have taken shit from everybody else their whole lives. I'd think of all people, Dan would understand what it is like to live that way.

Please have gay sex with me (I promise it will be good,)
- Beth

P.S. Fuck J Crew and their tiny pants.
Posted by Sharkweek on February 14, 2011 at 4:47 PM · Report this
Rob in Baltimore 1217
Where was Lindy's sensitivity to others when she wrote this?

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…

She seems to think it's okay to make fun of other people's physical traits.
Posted by Rob in Baltimore http://www.wishbookweb.com/ on February 14, 2011 at 4:42 PM · Report this
kerfuffle 1216
I'm a big fan of what Dan does for the gay community, but it has always set my teeth on edge when you can feel his venom toward fat people come through in his writing, even when he's trying to be "helpful."

It also tickles me pink that Marilyn Wann commented! Her book, Fat!So? changed my life.

I am a person who has a genetic predisposition toward being a big girl. I've never been tiny. When I took 7 dance classes a week, I was still chubby. When I was a cheerleader and a dance teacher, I was still chubby. I was not an overeater and I worked my ass off and I was still chubby.

I have battled my weight my entire life, but I finally learned to accept that I'll never be skinny. And I honestly think I look weird when I'm under 180. Right now, I'm around 195, My cholesteral and blood pressure are perfect and I rock my curves. I've never had a problem with men turning down their noses at my curvey figure. I've dated men who, some shallow people would wonder "Why is he dating that chubby girl?" Why? Because I rock, and I'm fortunate enough to have self confidence despite what fatphobes think about me.

I move, I dance, I excercise, and when I want pie, I have some damn pie.

Lindy, you are gorgeous, hilarious, wicked smart and an amazing writer and I have long been a fan of your work. This just solidifies my total girlcrush on you. You tell 'em, girl.
Posted by kerfuffle on February 14, 2011 at 4:41 PM · Report this
keshmeshi 1215
Comments were already at 900+ when I first saw this post, so I haven't bothered commenting for now, but thanks, Lindy. You are awesome. Don't ever change.
Posted by keshmeshi on February 14, 2011 at 4:41 PM · Report this
littlesparrow7 1214
@1209 dirac

Good links. I do think that sharing individual experiences is helpful, in that it fills in where the facts leave off. It does help sharing our stories, along with the scientific and sociological information. Don't you think?
Posted by littlesparrow7 http://vesper7.tumblr.com/ on February 14, 2011 at 4:38 PM · Report this
1211
There are already too many comments on this article to check if anyone has already said this, but...

Lindy, you are not fat. I have no doubt that your size has bothered you over the years, but unless your photos here (http://www.thestranger.com/images/blogim…) and here (http://www.thestranger.com/imager/lindy-…) are very misleading, YOU ARE NOT FAT.

Or at least not the type of fat that has real and severe health problems that Dan has talked about in the past.
Posted by onineko on February 14, 2011 at 4:26 PM · Report this
Njoy 1210
@1204 *eye roll* I think it is pretty obvious what carbs I was talking about.

You know- perhaps THESE carbs?
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/uneed…
Posted by Njoy on February 14, 2011 at 4:20 PM · Report this
dirac 1209
@1190 How about this or this. It doesn't matter on an individual basis (insofar as the bullshit use of shaming, ridicule, or even talking about individual circumstances) but there's definitely a social as well as health, psychological consequence.
Posted by dirac on February 14, 2011 at 4:20 PM · Report this
aardvark 1208
when was the last art post that got this much attention. oprah baby!
Posted by aardvark on February 14, 2011 at 4:20 PM · Report this
1207
The latest Slog post just pushed this one off page 1. I'm guessing if they haven't bumped it by now, no bump's in the offing.
Posted by gloomy gus on February 14, 2011 at 4:19 PM · Report this
1206
@1196 in addition to Dan not adding anything new to the discussion, people like you are probably another reason his comments section is closed.

a) he didn't "cherry-pick" columns any more than Lindy did.
b) the columns he linked to are examples of him SUPPORTING "fat" people (not merely avoiding mocking them...if you want to find a column where he merely "doesn't deride fat people," then go to his archive, close your eyes, and randomly click a link).
c) he *IS* leaving it alone...he's just directing you to things he's already said in the past.
Posted by jayaresea on February 14, 2011 at 4:16 PM · Report this
1205
Amen and Amen again! Thank you for your declaration/manifesto! I was recently rejected from my jobs health insurance because of my weight and it really put me into a depression because I am healthy. No one is advocating taking health insurance away from smokers, drug addicts, or people who have unprotected sex. Fat people have become the only unhealthy people in the world. Because of this new wave of media phatphobia under the cause of "health concerns", I really had to stop and reassess my understanding of my own worth. I've been fat since I was 12 and I've accomplished a lot since then, more than a lot of people my again and from my background. And I'm not going to wait until I'm skinny to be proud of myself. I have so much to say on this topic but all of that to say thank you for using your voice in such an important way.
Posted by dchantell80 on February 14, 2011 at 4:15 PM · Report this
1204
@1198

You DO realize that there are two kinds of carbohydrates, sugars and starches. Starches are complex carbohydrates that take longer to be digested and include foods such as breads, grains, pasta, tortillas, noodles, fruits and vegetables.

... So by telling her to cut out carbohydrates you're pretty much saying stop eating most fruits or vegetables. She also can't eat bread or pasta. So that's left her with diary, meat and fish. Of course if she's a vegetarian/vegan, and "cutting out carbs," she's royally screwed isn't she?

I suppose starving IS a good way to get rid of fat until she, ya know, dies from starvation.

Oh, wait, you meant something different when you said "cut out carbs"? You meant THESE carbs, not THOSE carbs. So, actually, it's a little bit more complicated than what you first suggested by just suggesting to a random stranger based on only her body weight "Hey stop eating this entire food group." Hm.
Posted by Martychan on February 14, 2011 at 4:14 PM · Report this
More, I Say! 1203
@1132, Jennifer Hudson *disgusts* you now? Seriously? Because her shape has changed? She was gorgeous before and she's gorgeous now, she's got a beautiful face and a lot of class. Saying you find her 'disgusting' is absolutely as offensive as saying you found her disgusting before but now she's attractive. jesus christ.
Posted by More, I Say! on February 14, 2011 at 4:14 PM · Report this
Schmooze 1201
@1062, of course, the difference is that Kate Harding IS a dishonest paranoid douchebag. And also a bigger bully than Dan could ever hope to be in his cruelest dreams.

I've been meaning to post in this thread to thank Lindy for not linking to her.
Posted by Schmooze on February 14, 2011 at 4:07 PM · Report this
kim in portland 1200
Matt @ 1175,

Would it matter if Lindy and Dan were satisfied? Or do they owe Slog some announcement?. I'm wondering about how many people feel that they are owed an apology from Dan for their own feelings of hurt or emotional involvement in this thread? Is the apology needed for Lindy, and individuals are upset for her, or is it for every single person here? If the apology is needed for all,then what does it need to say?

Those are my questions. Just questions, not judgements. And, clearly you feel that there must be some public announcement. Thank you for sharing.

Sorry you're "surprised" at me. I'm sorry to have disappointed you
with my questions.

Take care.
Posted by kim in portland http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/11/fast-paced_video_provides_a_fu.html on February 14, 2011 at 4:06 PM · Report this
1199
@1195
Yes, Dan is blunt and doesn't treat people with kid gloves. However, in nearly every other issue he advises on, he can talk about the matter in shades of gray: cheating, as an example. He's usually only harsh or cruel on people who are obnoxious jerks.

But on the weight/"fatness" issue, Dan doesn't seem to deal in very many shades of gray. Like many other posters here, he speaks as if overweight = eats too much = lazy. What Lindy and the posters who are defended/supporting her are saying is that weight is NOT that simple.

Why is it not that simple? Because what we use to measure health in relation to weight are not always accurate.

For instance, if you evaluate me based on appearance alone, I am anywhere from "chubby" to "overweight" (confirmed by helpful Internet trolls.)
If you evaluate me based on BMI, I am healthy and normal. (5'1" and 121 pounds.)
If you evaluate me based on body fat content, I am "fair" at 27%.
If you evaluate me based on waist-hip circumference (bust: 35 1/2, waist: 32 1/4, and hips 36 3/4) it's amazing I'm not having a heart attach right now.

Even WEIRDER is that after going to the gym for 3 months 3 times a week and working out at least an hour, I've lost body fat, but absolutely no weight or inches. Yet I know I'm getting stronger, because I can do more reps/heavier weights. I'm also not breathing as heavily when doing the Stairmaster, and yet my resting heart rate hasn't decreased.

And just to throw even MORE confusion onto the mix, my eating habits have not changed at all since before I started working out til after.

So what does this mean? That weight and health are complicated, incredibly individualistic experiences. Dan seems to take that into account in other areas... And yet in the links other people have posted, he's demonstrated an inability to reconsider weight = health = completely in an individual's control.
More...
Posted by Martychan on February 14, 2011 at 4:05 PM · Report this
Njoy 1198
Lindy,
Sorry but I am not impressed.
If you cut out carbs completely and joined a gym you would lose weight GUARANTEED. So, uh, this is basically a lot of grief for nothing, girl. Get over yourself. Seriously. I do not feel even a little bit sorry for you.

Posted by Njoy on February 14, 2011 at 4:04 PM · Report this
Irena 1197
I love you for this, Lindy. I think my heart just grew 3 sizes. So fucking inspiring.

Anyone with an opinion on this subject needs to watch this BBC documentary, Why Are Thin People Not Fat? If you want to know what science has to say, it's required viewing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6-A0iHSd…

Thanks to seattlegrrrl for posting it on the earlier thread.

Posted by Irena on February 14, 2011 at 3:58 PM · Report this
1196
So all Dan can do is cherry-pick columns where he doesn't deride fat people? Really? And put them up closed to comments? For fuck's sake. Showing examples of when he wasn't a dismissive ass to fat people does not in any way speak to the subject of him sometimes being a dismissive ass to fat people. Why not either write a thoughtful response or just leave it alone for now?
Posted by g on February 14, 2011 at 3:51 PM · Report this
Canuck 1195
@1175 Matt: People keep mentioning an apology. It seems to me that they are assuming that Dan was wrong, and "cowardly" for not owning up to his "wrongness." I understand that he is blunt, and honest, and doesn't treat people with kid gloves, but I fail to see how that makes him "wrong." You think that Lindy "called him out" on her fat marriage post, and that because she has a lot of supporters here, that somehow proves her point? What I see is Dan calling bullshit on *anyone* who is in denial: Be they a douche straight guy, a barebacking gay guy, a hypocritical Christian, or...yes...an overweight person who hates his life and yet has no intention of changing his eating habits. I truly think a lot of people on this thread are just shooting the messenger.
Posted by Canuck on February 14, 2011 at 3:47 PM · Report this
1194
@1175
The way the game should be played now, is that the apology should come in public.


Dan doesn't think he owes her an apology. He said her claims are bullshit, and he's doing a damn good job of proving that, which is all he owes Lindy. He doesn't owe us anything because he didn't start this discussion. He doesn't want to hear our opinions and I don't blame him. He's heard it all before, and if he's interested he can come here.

He asked for links showing him stigmatizing and hating on fat people. Links that he never got.

He said that Lindy's accusation was bullshit. That's it. And now she's given him a reason to show his numerous defenses of fat people who actually came to him for help.

This is going to backfire on Lindy (if it hasn't already) because she misunderstood a post of Dan's, overreacted, and handled it poorly, probably due to the fact that she's been carrying a grudge for a long time.
Posted by jade on February 14, 2011 at 3:42 PM · Report this
attitude devant 1193
Linds!!!! I do hope you're still listening because hear this: You are awesome from top to bottom, front to back, side to side, inside to out.

I spent years being obsessed by my weight. Years doing everything I could to not eat. Not-eating was an all-consuming activity. It did not make me happy, it did not help my health (quite the opposite: my hair fell out and my periods stopped), but worst of all, I was not-eating when I could have been really DOING something, having a blast, writing the Great American Novel. What a stupid waste!

I have a high-normal BMI now and feel fine---but I still look plump to the average eye, and people do call me fat. Well, fuck THEM, you know? I couldn't care less what they think of me, but I WOULD like to have a do-over on the time and energy I wasted on pursuing some crazy body ideal. I'd much rather be remembered for what I said than how I looked. Because what I say and do lasts forever, and how I look? Well, ask any aging actress how that's working for her.

Girl, you have more talent in your little finger than 95% of us. Good on you not to squander your energy on extraneous things.
Posted by attitude devant on February 14, 2011 at 3:39 PM · Report this
1192
Love Letter to Lindy West: I love you so much, as a writer I mean, that when your copy editor was a guest speaker in my class, I was a little bit sweaty and nervous. Because she gets to edit your copy. And I love your copy.

I can't work up an opinion about your fat. My own fat bugs me, mostly because I want to buy cute pants. But your fat doesn't bug me, and in fact I think it might be responsible for your lovely boobies.

I definitely like your words, and if your words come from that bod then that bod is pretty fucking great.
Posted by janedoes on February 14, 2011 at 3:37 PM · Report this
1191
@1183 sometimes decorum (esp inter-office) trumps "more $$$." his comments section being turned off does not affect you at all, aside from keeping you from potentially drawing more hits to your own blog. about which i'm sure he's very sad. but he did not add anything to the convo that he's not already said many times before, hence no need for another open comments section.
Posted by jayaresea on February 14, 2011 at 3:36 PM · Report this
blip 1190
@1185 Great work, now find a study that demonstrates how someone else's weight is any of your business.
Posted by blip on February 14, 2011 at 3:36 PM · Report this
1189
Kim in Portland @1150: Your earlier comment was appreciated, but a bit off the mark. I didn't mean to accuse you, but merely point out that your comment was most easily perceived as defensive when viewed within the larger context of the thread. I only meant for you to consider the ramifications of such a response, given the climate of hurt feelings here; I certainly didn't mean to cast aspersions on your background or qualifications, of which I knew nothing. Kindly remember that meaning is negotiated, so other understandings of your words are often just as valid as your own. I simply wished to point out how your statements could be interpreted when approached from another perspective, and I do not think that can be dismissed as a simple tendency to find fault.

(Although, finding fault is rather an occupational hazard for an editor...) ;)

In @1150, however, I believe you are again doing Mr. Savage no service here by questioning people's demands for an explicit apology. A public statement expressing some kind of remorse is a logical desire, because the problem was caused by similarly public comments. Mr. Savage may link to as many examples of contextually appropriate discussion as he wished, but these do not erase his many other comments where he uses obesity as a convenient dog to kick. It is those for which he should apologize.
Posted by medeii on February 14, 2011 at 3:32 PM · Report this
Cynic Romantic 1188
984 et al: Littlesparrow, you dopy bint, it's NOT ABOUT YOU.
Posted by Cynic Romantic on February 14, 2011 at 3:24 PM · Report this
Josh Bomb 1186
@1170 thank you.
Posted by Josh Bomb http://www.satanosphere.com on February 14, 2011 at 3:18 PM · Report this
littlesparrow7 1185
@1183 WeeblesWobble

Here ya go (FACTS from the European Congress on Obesity):

"Are too many calories to blame for the raging obesity epidemic in the US? The answer is yes, according to an exhaustive study that squarely blames excessive energy intake for bulging waistlines since the 1970s.
“This study demonstrates that the weight gain in the American population seems to be virtually all explained by eating more calories,” said Boyd Swinburn, head of population health at Deakin University who led the study.

The scientists started by testing 1,399 adults and 963 children to determine how many calories their bodies burn in total, under free-living conditions. The test is the most accurate measure of total calorie burning in real-life situations.

Once they had determined each person’s calorie burning rate, Swinburn and his colleagues were able to calculate how much adults needed to eat in order to maintain a stable weight and how much children needed to eat in order to maintain a normal growth curve.

They then worked out how much Americans were actually eating, using national food supply data (the amount of food produced and imported, minus the amount exported, thrown away and used for animals or other non-human uses) from the 1970s and the early 2000s.

The researchers used their findings to predict how much weight they would expect Americans to have gained over the 30-year period studied if food intake were the only influence.

“If the actual weight increase was the same as what we predicted, that meant that food intake was virtually entirely responsible. If it wasn’t, that meant changes in physical activity also played a role,” Swinburn said.

The researchers found that in children, the predicted and actual weight increase matched exactly, indicating that the increases in energy intake alone over the 30 years studied could explain the weight increase, said a Deakin release.

“For adults, we predicted that they would be 10.8 kg heavier, but in fact they were 8.6 kg heavier. That suggests that excess food intake still explains the weight gain, but that there may have been increases in physical activity over the 30 years that have blunted what would otherwise have been a higher weight gain,” Swinburn said.

These findings were presented May 8 at the European Congress on Obesity."

source: http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/sci-…
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Posted by littlesparrow7 http://vesper7.tumblr.com/ on February 14, 2011 at 3:16 PM · Report this
1184
@1181 - You're so right people don't realize how much calories they are putting in sometimes. I have a coworker who eats mostly salad for lunch but then gulps down a big cup of Star Bucks latte which probably has more calories than a big Mac.
Posted by JaxBriggs on February 14, 2011 at 3:14 PM · Report this
WeeblesWobble 1183
@1181: Anecdotes are not data. You won't get anywhere until you understand that.

@1182: It's a blog--it's for commenting. More comments -> more page hits -> more $$$. Dan's had years of becoming thick-skinned as a public figure; he could easily have ignored any comments. Netiquette says shutting down commentary is always bad. Lindy FTW.
Posted by WeeblesWobble http://lipidlove.blogspot.com/2011/02/pointing-out-obvious.html on February 14, 2011 at 3:06 PM · Report this
1182
@1164--right on! Dan is soooo smart to have put his answers in a no comment form. He's not the boss just because he can write snarky, funny, and damn good advice. This has become the saddest, most unpleasant Slog post ever. I'll bet Lindy wishes she'd sent Dan a private email at this point--I sure as hell do. It's like a nest of vipers in here.
Posted by Beth on February 14, 2011 at 3:00 PM · Report this
littlesparrow7 1181
This obese woman admits to eating 33,000 calories a day: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkvdEoM4U…
Posted by littlesparrow7 http://vesper7.tumblr.com/ on February 14, 2011 at 3:00 PM · Report this
littlesparrow7 1180
@1179 I've commented here many times, and I'm not going to repeat the information that I've left on this topic. Lie to yourself all you want.
Posted by littlesparrow7 http://vesper7.tumblr.com/ on February 14, 2011 at 2:58 PM · Report this
Cherry Pirate 1179
I don't get this thinking. I have been fat and thin at various periods of my life and lived with a family that is almost always been overweight. Sometimes it's because people get too busy to work out or stress food or whatever. But this idea that there is a "fat type" and that some people just can't lose weight is absolute horseshit. All genetics and the other features people invoke as to why they are fat just affects the rate at which anyone loses or gains weight. It is biologically impossible to be fat you are not overeating and overeating consistently is unhealthy. Overeating is eating substantially more than you'll burn in a day. If you eat less calories then you burn, you will lose weight, if you don't, your body stores it. Sometimes that is good but doing it all the time throws off hormone balance, stresses joints etc.

However, if you are overweight but in good physical shape, you are doing better than an out of shape thin person. Nevertheless, the idea that you are embracing your body like it's some type ignores the responsibility you have for making your body the way it is. It's embracing habitual overeating as some women empowerment. It's a fine choice to make, and I don't, like dan, think rolls are unsightly. But it is scientifically well supported it's unhealthy. If you're happy with how you live your life, then do it, but don't act like "some people" just have to be fat. It's biologically impossible.
Posted by Cherry Pirate on February 14, 2011 at 2:56 PM · Report this
WeeblesWobble 1178
@1177: "What you say is just not true. I know many fat and obese people, and they indeed eat more than 2000 calories a day."

Fail. Anecdotes are not the same as data. (And you're not learning anything at http://theskinnywebsite.com/ .)
Posted by WeeblesWobble http://lipidlove.blogspot.com/2011/02/pointing-out-obvious.html on February 14, 2011 at 2:55 PM · Report this
littlesparrow7 1177
@1165 avast2006

What you say is just not true. I know many fat and obese people, and they indeed eat more than 2000 calories a day. There's only a very select few who become obese from eating 2000 calories a day or less, and these people have SEVERE health problems that need to be addressed immediately. If what you say is true, then many people in third world countries, without adequate food supplies, would also be obese. We don't find this phenomenon to be the case, and therefore it's not true.

In the case of severe hunger that cannot be ignored, it could be a case of hypoglycemia, an often pre-diabetic condition wherein the individual craves simple carbs and sugars because of severely low blood sugar. Hypoglycemia almost always leads to weight gain BECAUSE of excessive caloric intake. This is also a problem that needs to be addressed immediately, because it's often an indicator that the person is on their way to developing Type 2 Diabetes.
Posted by littlesparrow7 http://vesper7.tumblr.com/ on February 14, 2011 at 2:51 PM · Report this
1176
I re-read all the offending columns. I'm now firmly in the Savage camp. He hasn't said anything hateful, but apparently anything but "being fat is beautiful" is an attack on the self-esteem of fat people. BS. Savage was just as tough on gays who thought asking for personal responsibility in practicing safe sex was tantamount to shaming gays for having sex.
Posted by Centrists Rule the World today on February 14, 2011 at 2:46 PM · Report this
Matt from Denver 1175
Kim @ 1150, this became about all of us when they decided that slog was the place to have this discussion - by "all about us," you mean "when did we become emotionally vested in this?" Such emotional investment is pretty human. I'm a bit surprised at you.

I'm disappointed, but not surprised, that Dan hasn't apologized because he called bullshit on Lindy - in public, on the "RE: Ban Fat Marriage" thread. And she showed that it wasn't bullshit, in public on this thread. The way the game should be played now, is that the apology should come in public.

I do judge these things because I know how to say I'm sorry when I'm wrong, and I expect everyone else to be able to do that, too. What a better world it would be if everyone could.

Posted by Matt from Denver on February 14, 2011 at 2:46 PM · Report this
1174
#1165 "Often these people have gotten to their present weight on a normal diet of 2000 calories a day OR LESS." - there's a study in UK last year about how there is a big discrepancy between what people self report how much they eat and how much they actually eat (they used hidden cameras I think). There're just so many foods (a little candies here and there) and sometimes habits (using a bigger bowl) that people don't realize and they consume more calories than they think they did.
Posted by JaxBriggs on February 14, 2011 at 2:41 PM · Report this
littlesparrow7 1173
@1148 fatcarrot

I applaud you for accepting yourself and trying to let everything go. That's definitely the very best place to be, and everything else will follow. I think it's awesome you're putting yourself out there, despite the restrictions you feel.

On another topic altogether...you mentioned pity. All of us struggle with something, or with many, many things, one after the other. That's a major fact of life, if not THE fact of life. Some of us are better than others at hiding all the shit we've been through, but like that old song goes, "everybody's got a story that could break your heart." I've had more than my share of heartache and pain, to the point of absurdity, but the last thing I want is for someone to take pity on me or feel sorry for me. To me, pity is something that takes my power away and turns me into the victim of my circumstances. Pity does this by seeing me only through the lenses of my past dejectedness, instead of seeing me from a place of transcendence. It keeps me stuck in the past. I don't want to wallow in the suffering, I want to move on. I want to feel empowered, and to do that, the only thing I can do is live life fully, freely, respectfully, and gratefully.
Posted by littlesparrow7 http://vesper7.tumblr.com/ on February 14, 2011 at 2:39 PM · Report this
WeeblesWobble 1172
@1166: Um...what?
Posted by WeeblesWobble http://lipidlove.blogspot.com/2011/02/pointing-out-obvious.html on February 14, 2011 at 2:30 PM · Report this
The Wretched Harmony 1171
You know, Kim, Savage could have made his reductio ad absurdum attack on gay marriage opponents using lots of groups: the mentally ill, people with genetic diseases, alcoholics. He could have even gone extra classy and stayed away from conditions you don't choose, and instead picked on those who made their own beds, like high school dropouts or convicted felons. "Ban Retard Marriage" would have made the point just as well (and dickishly) as "Ban Fat Marriage". And "Ban Felon Marriage" or "Ban Dropout Marriage" would have removed a lot of the unnecessary cruelty.* Maybe he wanted to spare the feelings of all the high school dropouts and ex-cons he's hired.

But no. Dan Savage went straight down the list of options to attack his go to victims of choice: the overweight. Why? Because he worries about their health? Yes, he's said that. Because there's an obesity epidemic? He's said that too. Because holding people accountable for their weight is sometimes justified? He's said that on occasion.

But the real reason is that Savage's special mission in life is to shame fat people because he thinks that he's saving lives by making fat people feel worse, and he thinks science wants him to shame fat people. And as a bonus getting a free pass to go on a tear about much fat people squick him out.

* The flaw in the argument is that dysfunctional straight people will breed anyway. It's practically the sine qua non of dysfunctional straight people to reproduce inappropriately and to excess. Banning them from marriage wouldn't slow them down a bit. Whereas if gay parenting were in fact undesirable, then you could realistically reduce the number of gay parents by banning gay marriage, since adoption would be a little harder. The moral is: talk about reality and leave hyperbolic reductio ad absurdum stunts on the shelf next to where you keep your sleazy Quisling comparisons of your allies who slightly disagree with you. Godiwn thanks you. The only point is that gays are not worse parents, and deserve marriage as much as everyone else, and you can just say that without bashing fat people or drunks or high school dropouts.
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Posted by The Wretched Harmony on February 14, 2011 at 2:28 PM · Report this
1170
Nobody's arguing that it's healthy to be fat. Did Lindy ever say that? Her post is about how we treat other people -- even people who aren't perfect. Yeah, most fat people aren't perfect-they overeat. They have issues with food. But who the hell is perfect? Maybe you don't have a problem with food, but you probably have something about you that isn't so great -- do you want it rubbed in your face day in and day out? Would that be constructive? I don't think so. There are a TON of unhealthy behaviors, like drug addiction. How often does Savage harp on drug addicts? I can't recall if he ever has. Why the constant harping on fat people? I think that is a legitimate question.
Posted by ian on February 14, 2011 at 2:27 PM · Report this
1169
@1167 to be accurate, he said all those words well before lindy's. so...not the last word by any means necessary.
Posted by jayaresea on February 14, 2011 at 2:26 PM · Report this
1168
Rob @ 1161 You win. I am unequal to the task of getting an idea to stop bouncing right off your head. I hope someone who loves you gives you a nice but not fattening Valentine.
Posted by good vagina on February 14, 2011 at 2:25 PM · Report this
1166
1153: I said people who are OBESE are repulsive to other humans for selection reasons, not FAT.
Posted by six five on February 14, 2011 at 2:21 PM · Report this
1165
@919: You are missing several important concepts:

1) Often these people have gotten to their present weight on a normal diet of 2000 calories a day OR LESS. You seem singularly unwilling to concede this point.

2) These people are reporting severe hunger even a) on a normal diet of 2000 calories a day, and b) WHILE THEIR BODIES CONTINUE TO GAIN WEIGHT ON THAT "NORMAL" DIET.

It isn't a matter of "oh, they've just been eating way too much and now they have to give their brains time to adjust." They already were eating what should be a normal diet. Sometimes less. Their fat-storage mechanisms are literally depriving the rest of their bodies, even at bare subsistence level intakes. Their brains, and their fat-storing metabolisms, aren't ever going to adjust.

And all you can do is insist that they just need to eat less, and that if only they would be thin, they would eventually be all better, and healthy. Pardon me, but I'm at the point-and-laugh stage with you.

It really, really isn't that simple.
Posted by avast2006 on February 14, 2011 at 2:20 PM · Report this
1164
I feel bad for Dan. Called out and put into a no-win situation, at least in the eyes of Lindy apologists. Reply the way he *could*, the way many of you jackals would like, and he's a big boss-man bully, further imprinting the "victim" label Lindy seems to have all but sewn up for herself and her BFFs. Take the high road and simply let his many previous words speak for themselves (and he didn't "cherry pick" his links any more than Lindy did, and IMO his links provided a much clearer view of his voice on the matter than hers) and he's called a "coward" by those same people. People not fit to wear his jock. (As far as comments being turned off, what would be said there that wouldn't have been said here?)

I'm impressed he chose the latter route.

In the interest of full disclosure: I have never met Dan and probably never will.
Posted by jayaresea on February 14, 2011 at 2:18 PM · Report this
1163
@1148 Fatcarrot - your post broke my heart a little. It pains me to read that it's hard for you to go to a dance workshop and worry that you'll be judged by the other women there (which is probably true; women can be incredibly judgmental of other each) and that no guys will want to dance with the "fat girl." I hate that people have been cruel to you, and I admire your courage in doing something that frightens you, just as I admire Lindy for having the guts to talk about the shame she's felt.

I certainly have my own issues around my feelings about obesity, my fear of getting fat and the food guilt I struggle with on a daily basis. I'm well aware that my self-image is completely distorted and informed by rigid ideals about what's attractive or not. So while we might be in very different places weightwise, I empathize with you and give you credit for focusing on health instead of just weight. It's not an easy thing to do, at least not for me.
Posted by Compass Rose on February 14, 2011 at 2:18 PM · Report this
1162
1151: I never said I was a communication major. You might be referring to a prior post I made criticizing the Stranger's dismissal of it as an academic program-- but to infer I am a or was a student is bogus.
Posted by six five on February 14, 2011 at 2:16 PM · Report this
Rob in Baltimore 1161
1156 If you want, Constantly eat "yummy foods", rather than a balanced diet. Just take responsibility for the consequences, and don't claim it's not your fault when you get fat.

Gay or straight, if you want, constantly have unprotected sex with strangers, rather than carefully choosing your partners, and using condoms. Just take responsibility for the consequences, and don't claim it's not your fault when you get sick.
Posted by Rob in Baltimore http://www.wishbookweb.com/ on February 14, 2011 at 2:15 PM · Report this
hydrozoa 1158
@ 1133: what i'm saying is that the shape of my, or lindy's, or anyone else on earth's body, as well as my health status has nothing to do with dan savage. or anyone but me. at all, ever, for any reason. keep your prejudices off my body.

my point in the melted cheese passage was that when i eat the way my boyfriend eats, i gain weight and he does not. this illustrates that our bodies process nutrients in different ways, for reasons that are beyond our control, and that therefore, you can't know what someone eats by looking at his or her body.

for lunch, 10 minutes ago, i just ate a baked cod fillet with roasted asparagus and some fucking cabbagey/cauliflower side dish, and my boyfriend ate two walnut muffins, a banh mi, and a plate of nachos. that's what he eats. seriously. i also go to the gym three or four times a week and he goes never times a week. however, by the idiotic "i know everything about your lifestyle by looking at you" school of thought, one might look at my body and assume that i eat half a garbage truck for lunch every day or whatever the fuck skinny people think fat people eat.

moreover, though, why does dan even care? what makes him so terrified for the health of people he finds disgusting? like, i have a job and a social life--i don't have space in my brain to go around giving a shit about whether people like to pray to allah or weigh 263 pounds or fuck boys' bottoms. i don't care. it doesn't affect me in any way whatsoever. and if i did care, which would be stupid, i sure as shit wouldn't go around telling people to change their lives and bodies because i don't like them. i would mind my own goddamn business. how fucking arrogant can you be.

i agree that obesity promotes poor health, but it's totally irrelevant. skinny people don't have the right to tell fat people what they should or should not be doing, just like people don't have the right to tell me that they don't like my hair and that i should change it to suit them. i'm not going to give black people skincare tips. dan needs to check his fucking privilege and mind his own biz.
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Posted by hydrozoa on February 14, 2011 at 2:08 PM · Report this
reverend dr dj riz 1157
god.. @1149 will the stupid ever stop.. in short..i'm a big old fat fag with a swimmers build husband.who love love loves me. loves looking at me loves being with me. and yes i find big people lovely been with them ..love them..( bears.. heard of 'em ? ) but you know it just occurred to me (..well not just..but for the sake of this thread )..
*opens can of worms..dumps them on the table *
...but..i'm black and generally speaking ( *fuckin worms are everywhere* ) black folks don't hate on fat peoples so much. we don't find them 'disgusting' not to say that we don't have problems with obesity. boy do we ever struggle with obesity..but generally more from a health perspective than a beauty one. still a hurt's a hurt and what people are willfully and gleefully doing is trying to hurt other people into being healthy..including you.
and it never works..or never works for long.
Posted by reverend dr dj riz on February 14, 2011 at 2:06 PM · Report this
1156
Rob @ 1146 people don't choose to be gay but what makes you think people choose to have the sort of body that requires constant gnawing hunger and almost constantly eschewing yummy foods in order to not become offensively fat? Look I don't want to lean too hard on this comparison because it is too close to somehow relishing a tit for tat discrimination arms race and I always prefer peace to winning an argument but why are you so sure people are fat because they are overeating hand over fist? Why is walking the world with unanswered raging horniness all that different than spending ones life with near constant hunger?
Posted by good vagina on February 14, 2011 at 2:01 PM · Report this
seattleeco 1155
@1149 Actually, you aren't quite right in your evolutionary theory. In some circles, heaviness was actually a sign of prosperity during the Renaissance and Reformation; after all, food scarcity was the norm for most people until relatively recently in human history. Take a look at a Reuben and tell me if that's a supermodel body. My answer is yes, but I'm not defining supermodel conventionally. ;)
Posted by seattleeco on February 14, 2011 at 2:01 PM · Report this
STJA 1154
1149-

STFU about evolution. We don't know that shit. Can you explain, then, why cultural preferences have swung from flapper thin to "rubenesque"? That's cultural. It may have a genetic basis (you like what you saw when you were growing up?) but to say "we're programmed" belies your ignorance.
Posted by STJA on February 14, 2011 at 1:59 PM · Report this
veo_ 1153
@1149 Actually, those who are more readily able to lay down fat stores quickly have enjoyed an evolutionary ADVANTAGE all through human history until very VERY recently.

You're kind of just spouting random garbage, aren't you?
Posted by veo_ on February 14, 2011 at 1:55 PM · Report this
WeeblesWobble 1151
@1149 said: "All the fat people here on a Friday night that had nothing to do and nobody to do it with, circle jerking each other got the comments up over 430.
It will be interesting when other healthy, active individuals join the conversation this morning and in the coming days."

Dude, you're disgusting. Communication major, indeed.
Posted by WeeblesWobble http://lipidlove.blogspot.com/2011/02/pointing-out-obvious.html on February 14, 2011 at 1:53 PM · Report this
kim in portland 1150
Okay, I get that many of you feel disappointed about Dan's response. Sorry for that. But, when did it become about you? When did you become deserving of an apology that is tailor made to your specifications, seriously when did become about you and your hurt feelings? How do any of us know that Lindy isn't satisfied. Or that there wasn't a heart to heart between the two?

I know this is a touchy subject and I'm sorry for all who have been hurt in the past or will be hurt tomorrow. Still, the tossing of stones is terrible and saddening to read. Have you forgotten your humanity in your thrill to take aim? I've been reading many of you for some years and I've read you in moments when you were down right cruel and nasty. Being unkind is never justified, and we are all guilty of it. No-one escapes their both beautiful and flawed humanity, no-one. Nor do the moments when we are unreasonable arseholes define our entire person. I think it highly unlikely that many of us would like our less than compassionate moments drug out for all to see. Deep down most of us know that we are a confusing mix of champion cheerleader and bully. You cannot escape it, Dan Savage cannot escape it, Lindy West cannot escape it, and I cannot escape it. We do ourselves no favor pretending differently, just like we do ourselves no favors when we put Dan or Lindy (any other person, really) up on a pedestal and forget that they are human.

That said, I hope Dan has adressed Lindy's feelings directly. I hope both of them walked away feeling satisfied. In my opinion it is their satisfaction that matters.

I'll close by extending an apology to any person who finds my questioning their right to demand a response that meets their personal expectations offensive, judgmentat, etc. I'm sorry you
are disappointed. I do not wish to offend you, nor am I judging you, nor am I defending any person's (including Dan's) own words. I'm asking you think as to why you're wedded to a particular response, because it says something about your needs. I am sorry for every unkind word that this entire subject has touched. I'm saying I'm sorry that you have been hurt, rejected, etc. I wish you peace and healing.

Now, I'm going to hibernate for a bit. Ciao.
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Posted by kim in portland http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/11/fast-paced_video_provides_a_fu.html on February 14, 2011 at 1:52 PM · Report this
1149
@1140, this about to sound mean, but obesity is disgusting for evolutionary and simple genetics/survival/intrinsically human reasons. We often become repulsed/un-attracted to that which is grotesquely different than healthy individuals. We are programmed to seek healthy mates with healthy genes to procreate with, and shy away from the very different. This is why you don't like people with deformed faces, etc..

I know you are extremely defensive about this fact of nature, but get over yourself.

Are obese people even attracted to obese people? No. They get with each other because that's the best they can do, but even they are seeking healthy mates in fantasies/porn/TV dramas, etc.

Posted by six five on February 14, 2011 at 1:44 PM · Report this
1148
@ 1130 littlesparrow7

Is part of me shouting "Fuck all of you"? Yes, it is. But this isn't really directed at my parents all that much. My parents have long ago regretted their actions and try to support me as well as they can. In fact, there actions would not have been that bad if the child I was back then wouldn't have experienced their pressure (and honestly, compared to what is done to some fat kids in general it was subtle pressure) as validation of the negative messages I got from my peers and, at times, also teachers. Other kids called me names because I was fat. My parents loved me, sure, but they also said that being fat was bad. Somehow that got linked to the message "well, if being fat is bad and if those kids bully you because you are fat than you deserve to be bullied".

No, the people I am truly angry at are the people that discount my experiences when I talk about them. They are the people that call me names on the street. They are the doctors that lecture me about weight all the time, even when I come to them with an acute ear infection that hurts so much that it makes me cry, and that actually propose weight-loss methods that are quite dubious in nature (such as very low calorie diets). They are the people who assume that I cannot be very intelligent, that I cannot have much self-control, that I cannot be an interesting person to talk to, that I am not a sexual being, and that the best thing I deserve is pity.

It also pisses me off that well-meaning people assume when I tell them I have struggled with eating-disordered behavior that I am talking SOLELY about binge-eating. Yes, that was/ is a large part of it but it was never the only part. As I said before, I have fasted, I have lived on something like four slices of bread and two glasses of milk per day for several weeks, I ate little enough for long enough to lose my period, etc. But these people just ignore it when I talk about those things. And they totally think that I should try the next popular diet, even though I know that dieting is triggering for me.

Yes, this is overstated. No, not everyone is out there to get me. But honestly, until now, I tried to conform. I actually tried to live by society’s rules by the “common knowledge” spouted about health and weight. I really, really tried. It did not work and it did not make me "healthier", not physically, and certainly not emotionally. So, yes, I am rebelling now, I am starting to live by my own rules. But it is damn hard, because that means going out there to a dance workshop and risking that none of the guys will dance with the fat girl or (in the case of an all-women belly-dance group that my teacher or the other dancers will look at me with disgust), it means quieting that little internalized voice that I am a disgusting pig, it means focusing on health and not on weight, and it means doing many more things that I am not used to doing or that scare me.

I truly thank you for engaging in this discussion. I do not agree with you and your view of obesity. (By the way - anorexia and obesity are not opposite poles. Obesity and underweight are opposite poles, and binge eating and anorexia are - mixing those dimensions up is mixing up behavior and possible outcome.) I still believe that on the one hand saying that obesity is "disgusting" and on the other hand wanting to respect fat people is contradictory. But I do believe that you hold both of those positions truly and sincerely even though they might be contradictory.
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Posted by fatcarrot on February 14, 2011 at 1:41 PM · Report this
GlamB0t 1147
@1140, many people need hobbies.

We live in a judgmental society and it's not surprising people JUMP to judge before thinking about the person they are judging's feelings (I am completely guilty of this myself).

I can source the countless blogs about celebrity (even the Slog at times) that completely rip other people down for entertainment. Look at the uprising of reality television, people love to watch and judge, so it isn't shocking that as a society some will simply write people off in an instant for trivial things (like weight, what they are wearing, etc).

I do truly believe dialog like this is helpful for those of us who want to be better. Who strive to become more empathetic and a more compassionate human, even from behind a computer.
Posted by GlamB0t on February 14, 2011 at 1:37 PM · Report this
Rob in Baltimore 1146
1128, Dan isn't saying don't eat "yummy things--the yummy things of your own choosing." Eat them all you like. People don't choose to need food. When you get fat, don't complain when some people don't find you attractive, and claim it's not your fault.

People don't choose to be gay. If they choose to over indulge in sex with a lot of people, or have risky sex, they shouldn't complain when they get sick that some people don't find them attractive, or claim it's not their own fault.

People need to be careful about both their sex and food choices.
Posted by Rob in Baltimore http://www.wishbookweb.com/ on February 14, 2011 at 1:36 PM · Report this
1143
Hm, this is weird :( I really liked the article while still disagreeing with parts of it. I as a former fatty I really liked being fat, I even felt sexier and and thought I looked better whenever I got fat but, other people didn't and would make it obvious :(
In the end though I was having trouble breathing and mental heath problems like anxiety which only went away when I started eating better. My main issues with the article where that I have friends who struggle, in a health and mental and yes even social way, because they are fat.
I contemplated all of this and my final conclusion is that she is just trying to get the shaming of fat people to stop- and I agree- making me feel bad about being fat just made me eat more comfort food because I felt so bad about myself and like her I always felt like my life was on hold and that didn't change even after I got less fat until I said I was ready to start living.
Now I'm no skinny mini but, I think what we really need to address is the factors that make us fat and unhealthy, bad cheap food readily available, additives that screw up the way our bodies take in food so that most of turns in to fat, kids not being taught to cook for themselves or even what vegetables are anymore in school, and no access to doctors for the poor. Even skinny people can be unhealthy and tax their employers premiums.
We need to stop shaming people and start tackling the systems in place that make us unhealthy. Shaming is the reason why girl at a normal weight go in to the bathroom to puke up there lunches and everyone obsessed with being a size zero. So take all your hatred and anger at fat people and put it to good use making social change instead of making people feel bad.
Even men aren't immune to the pressures:( I like people with curves, my dream is to meet a chubby guy who likes being chubby and accepts himself and isn't all f-d up about his weight. Some acceptance is ok. Girls with tits and asses are hot!! I know because I find it hot!!!
More...
Posted by wickedfunjunk on February 14, 2011 at 1:33 PM · Report this
NaFun 1142
I can't help but find it telling that only three male Stranger writers bothered to chime in. WTG Eli, David, and Larry.
Posted by NaFun http://www.dancesafe.org on February 14, 2011 at 1:32 PM · Report this
seattleeco 1141
@1128, I had the same thought the other night after Lindy's post appeared. If you really want to argue against obesity from a health care cost perspective, it can just as easily be turned against you: why should the rest of us have to cover the costs for people who knowingly engage in unsafe sex despite the risks, then contract serious diseases? It's a slippery slope trying to draw a line about who does and doesn't deserve to be treated without discrimination...and really, is that a line we want to be drawing at all? I hope not.
Posted by seattleeco on February 14, 2011 at 1:31 PM · Report this
1140
"I find obesity disgusting because even with all the information we have out there on eating right and living well, there's still an obesity epidemic. I also find it disgusting because of the mass amounts of deluded people making excuses for it. It we flip this around, I'm disgusted by anorexia, as well. "

I simply don't understand people who waste an iota of brain space being disgusted by the appearance of other human beings. It's so weird. Overinvested, much? I don't get worrying about other peoples' mass delusions. It doesn't affect you in the least (don't talk to me about insurance, mkay?).
Posted by jenojeno on February 14, 2011 at 1:24 PM · Report this
1139
Hm, this is weird :( I really liked the article while still disagreeing with parts of it. I as a former fatty really liked being fat, I even felt sexier and and thought I looked better whenever I got fat but, other people didn't and would make it obvious :(
In the end though I was having trouble breathing and mental heath problems like anxiety which only went away when I started eating better.
I contemplated all of this and my final conclusion is that she is just trying to get the shaming of fat people to stop- and I agree- making me feel bad about being fat just made me eat more comfort food because I felt so bad about myself and like her I always felt like my life was on hold and that didn't change even after I got less fat until I said I was ready to start living.
Now I'm no skinny mini but, I think what we really need to address is the factors that make us fat and unhealthy, bad cheap food readily available, additives that screw up the way our bodies take in food so that most of turns in to fat, kids not being taught to cook for themselves or even what vegetables are anymore in school, and no access to doctors for the poor. Even skinny people can be unhealthy and tax their employers premiums.
We need to stop shaming people and start tackling the systems in place that make us unhealthy. Shaming is the reason why girl at a normal weight go in to the bathroom to puke up there lunches and everyone obsessed with being a size zero. So take all your hatred and anger at fat people and put it to good use making social change instead of making people feel bad.
Even men aren't immune to the pressures:( I like people with curves, my dream is to meet a chubby guy who likes being chubby and accepts himself and isn't all f-d up about his weight. Some acceptance is ok. Girls with tits and asses are hot!! I know because I find it hot!!!
More...
Posted by wickedfunjunk on February 14, 2011 at 1:21 PM · Report this
aardvark 1138
jesus whatd i miss?

body image acceptance... savage as fat phobic....

dude, lots of people are into your body whatever you are.

being ugly is not the same as being fat. if you are ugly, you have problems. fat != ugly.

ugly people get discriminated against more than any other
Posted by aardvark on February 14, 2011 at 1:19 PM · Report this
Jaymz 1137
More as unearth by good vagina @1128: Our society seems to find "fat" funny and mockable all by itself - we are conditioned to laugh when we see heavy people in certain situations, just because they are fat. Substitute some other group in those same situations - black people or tall people or little African kids with HIV or AIDS - and see if there is an automatic humor. I'm talking about cruel stuff here, not a giant trying to sit in an airline seat or a black kid trying to hide in goose feathers. Society points and laughs because of the fatness, and that is automatically stigmatizing. There is a similar "eeeww" factor that society seems to place on fatness as well. Neither is cool.

By the way, I don't mind Dan's lack of comments on his preliminary responses, and leaving all of it here, so the comments can be accepted "in context". I also think that more is coming. And, I always found any apparent negative comments by Dan about fatness to be part of his overall caustic nature and not particular to that group....
Posted by Jaymz on February 14, 2011 at 1:18 PM · Report this
GlamB0t 1136
I'd also like to see a Dan vs. Lindy Dance Off.

When's the next Slog Happy?
Posted by GlamB0t on February 14, 2011 at 1:17 PM · Report this
1135
@Delishus,

You know what, I think with few exceptions EVERYONE is missing the point. Everyone accept one person who was great to remind us that Dan has these blunt rages against all sorts of people, including those HIV persuers in the gay community.

Most of these posts are people defending their attraction for or against fat people. Nothing about societal acceptance of fat people, or very little with respect to empathizing the other side. I'm sorry, in my experience, and many others there are no shortage of obese people (men and women) that expect sexual fullfillment and try to guilt or shame people into accepting them sexually when it is just not everyone's thing. And really that is why this is personal for so many people in this thread, it's about sex ... and about being judged for their sexual preferences, prejiduces, and being incapable of providing sexual fullfillment. Which is I tongue cheek put it, "Dan's gay loving" is ultimately the only thing that will satisfy the masses.

I think Lindy is GREAT, she is proud of who she is and has no shortage of people who feel the same way about her. She is confident and will take or accept what the world gives her, and she is not a quivering whinny bitch who seems like she is owed something. Perhaps that is why she can live such a fullfilling life.
Posted by former tri-state on February 14, 2011 at 1:10 PM · Report this
1134
I never noticed any fat bias in Dan's writing, but I certainly believe it's there after reading this. I'm always trying to get my white boyfriend to notice his white, male privilege. This was a nice exercise for me in seeing my own thin privilege. I do not, however, think fat bias rises to the level of the type of discrimination queer people and people of color experience, but it's good to think about nonetheless.
Posted by graygirl on February 14, 2011 at 1:07 PM · Report this
Canuck 1133
@1125 Hydroza: I don't think most of the people here are quibbling about whether or not Dan has apologized to Lindy (that's between them, and doesn't necessarily define the debate--you can apologize for having a disagreement without changing your position.) Dan isn't saying anything that hasn't been said by a ton of experts, medical doctors, etc.: That for *most* people, food choices and exercise or lack thereof have an effect on weight and health. The loudest voices on this thread seem to be saying, "But there are exceptions to that rule! I have a medical issue that causes me to gain weight, etc." There will be exceptions to every rule. There are people who smoke for their whole lives, and live to be 100. They are the exception to the rule. By your definition, we shouldn't suggest to people that smoking is unhealthy because it isn't unhealthy for everyone, all the time. There is nothing radical or cruel about what Dan is saying, but it isn't what a lot of people want to hear, and so they become defensive.

I don't think Dan is asking for you or anyone else to give him a boner, as you suggested. Your post, way back at 8__ something, talked about the unfairness of wanting to eat yummy food, and not being able to because you would gain too much weight, and that is somehow Dan's/men's fault for forcing you to conform to a certain body image, and that you shouldn't be made to feel you have to look good for men. Jeez. First of all, life isn't fair. I, too, would love to put melted cheese all over my food, but I don't, for the same reason you don't. Do I spend a lot of time thinking how unfair that is? No. You can keep singling out all of the exceptions to the rule, all those odd cases of people who eat nothing but cabbage and weigh 400 pounds, but the average North American eats too much and doesn't get enough exercise. If that point of view has made Dan into some kind of radical, well...get a clue.

More...
Posted by Canuck on February 14, 2011 at 1:07 PM · Report this
WeeblesWobble 1132
@1130, Nah. Jennifer Hudson was hot before, now she disgusts me.
Posted by WeeblesWobble http://lipidlove.blogspot.com/2011/02/pointing-out-obvious.html on February 14, 2011 at 1:02 PM · Report this
1131
Can I just take a moment to say I never thought Dan would be chickenshit enough to disable comments on his responses to this post. I'm disappointed. Lindy wins imho
Posted by planned barrenhood on February 14, 2011 at 12:57 PM · Report this
littlesparrow7 1130
@1116 Fatcarrot

I find obesity disgusting because even with all the information we have out there on eating right and living well, there's still an obesity epidemic. I also find it disgusting because of the mass amounts of deluded people making excuses for it. It we flip this around, I'm disgusted by anorexia, as well.

This thought just occurred to me...but...Could it be possible that your entire life is a sort of rebellion against your parents for forcing you to obsess about your weight and about food? Parents are the most significant people in our lives - for better or worse - and they contribute to so many of our predicaments, both good and bad. Their influence is pivotal to our development. If you were forced as a young child to constantly be aware of the size of your body in comparison to others and your consumption of food, wouldn't it make sense that something inside of you is crying out to act against those restrictions? Almost anyone who is restricted will eventually act out against "the ties that bind them", consciously or not.

It sounds like some part of you is always shouting out, "Fuck all of you (specifically your parents, but also anyone you perceive as being against you because of your weight), I am going to eat what I want when I want to, because I am a free individual...AND...I will make you accept me and love me as I am...fat and all!" Given your experiences, you have every right to feel this way, or at least for some part of you to feel this way.

That's just a shot in the dark on my part, but it comes from reading about your experiences and your take on the whole issue of obesity. Have you ever confronted your parents directly regarding the pain you experienced as a child because of the restrictions they enforced surrounding your food intake? It definitely sounds like there would have been better, gentler ways of dealing with your weight and health as a young child. I truly feel for you.
More...
Posted by littlesparrow7 http://vesper7.tumblr.com/ on February 14, 2011 at 12:54 PM · Report this
1129
I think people on Dan's side just aren't taking the time to reply. The article is clearly just bullshit. You didn't want to be skinnier more than anything so don't say that. And yeah congratulations you found out it takes more than a diet to be healthy. It takes running everyday and a normal diet that is healthy.

Also you're whole point about fat rolls not being unsightly? Really? YOU AREN'T WEARING A SKIN TIGHT SHIRT SO HE ISN'T TALKING TO YOU. I don't see fat rolls sticking out, because you know that it would be disgusting to have them hanging out.

That isn't even a diss to fat people, it is truth. It's commonly accepted that buttcracks are nasty too, but they are fine covered up. Also most guys dicks if they were just hanging out would be disgusting but we keep them under clothes, just as fat people should with fat rolls.

I'm 5:9 and 143 pounds and yes I eat retardedly and happen to be lucky my metabolism is good. However I went through a period where i stopped running everyday and I became chub. It's harder for some people but that doesn't mean impossible or even improbable, it means you lack motivation, and it is bullshit that you say you accept your body now and won't discuss it again. You posted that because you still are pissed, you wouldn't have even made this post if you were happy with your body, its obvious it is just covering up the fact you are self-conscious about your body.

Don't unfairly attack Dan, He gives credit to people I think are crazy and happens to be spot on a lot, and even if his ideas are no longer novel, to the people he is helping they are. Telling fat people they should love their bodies is disgusting, imagine what underfed people in impoverished countries think about obesity? Fuck I could talk about it all day and I doubt anyone will even read this post, either because it's 1/1100 or my name's Anal Smith or its too long. Either way fuck it. I usually finish writing comments and then never post them but there are too many ridiculous comments I need to even them out.
More...
Posted by anal smith on February 14, 2011 at 12:51 PM · Report this
1128

Even knowing this is gonna really piss some sloggers off, I can no longer resist addressing a point I have seen repeated a number of times here.

I see the similarities in the demand that fat people just control themselves to bible thumpers thundering that gay people should simply not be gay. I have heard it said that there is no sin in being a homosexual--it is ACTING on "homosexual urges" that they condemn. A lifetime of stifling the normal healthy urge to have delicious sex with someone of your choosing seems kinda like stifling the normal healthy urge to eat yummy things--the yummy things of your own choosing.. How is who you like to fuck all that different from what you like to eat? What about folks who like sex on the somewhat more risky side? What about the health consequences in that sort of choice? Let's be careful to remember all the nutty and fucked of shit that people said about people with HIV back in the day. And I'm sure some would still say people who get HIV deserve it because they should have kept their pants on. Google Ryan White or read about how radical it was when Lady Diana embraced children with HIV. Lots and lots of people allow the EEEEEWW factor to dominate their views on and treatment of people who are gay and we can all agree that is fucked up and to be stamped out so why is it OK to allow the eeeeeww factor about fat to end up with people being mistreated?
Posted by good vagina on February 14, 2011 at 12:45 PM · Report this
medium 1127
I seldom comment and feel sheepish doing so now, but hey, all the kids seem to be doing it.

For whatever reason, there are many people like Lindy who have been "fat" most of their lives. That is such a different experience than folks who became overweight in adulthood. For whatever reasons caused a lifetime of being overweight, I believe that the causes run much deeper, be they genes, psychological reasons, whatever. I have witnessed how much more difficult it is, if not how impossible it is for these people to ever reach an “ideal” weight. And yes, it's unfair for the likes of Dan Savage to (apparently?) to be insensitive of that.

That said, everyone I know that is overweight, regardless if they have been so all their lives or have become that way in adulthood, are trying to slim down or don't give a fuck, are older or younger, etc., all have one thing in common- they tend to eat at least twice as much as I do in one sitting. And I'm not skinny. And I love to eat but I choose not to OVEReat. Being satiated is different than eating until you are stuffed. I guess I'm luckier that I have the ability to do that. But it's a very conscious choice for me to always skip dessert and sweat my fucking ass off on a regular basis to be somewhat in shape.

Why should I have to be tolerant of the fact that I consistently see overweight people who don't (usually) burn as many calories as I do in a day eat so much more than I do? Food addiction aside, it's still selfish behavior and is a waste of resources. And yes, it's unhealthy.
Posted by medium on February 14, 2011 at 12:43 PM · Report this
WeeblesWobble 1126
@1120, if we stipulate Ozzy as an outlier, then generally humans don't *need* to take addictive drugs to live. Humans do need to eat to live--'Just Say No" is not an option. Thus our relationship with food addiction is far more complex than your reductionist analogy.
Posted by WeeblesWobble http://lipidlove.blogspot.com/2011/02/pointing-out-obvious.html on February 14, 2011 at 12:42 PM · Report this
hydrozoa 1125
christ, dan's response is really disappointing. "here are some more things i've said previously, which do not address the fact that i have offended someone i know personally. rather than apologizing, let's talk more about the health statistics of people who are not me, whose lifestyle choices i know nothing about and which do not affect me in any way whatsoever."

hey, good news, dan, because you don't have to like a goddamn thing about anyone else's body! not one single thing. it's your lucky day. you're totally free to just shut the fuck up.
Posted by hydrozoa on February 14, 2011 at 12:42 PM · Report this
piminnowcheez 1124
@1106
"Sure, he's managed to be civil in several questions involving overweight people. But his hatred for fatties has been pretty clear in others."

Haha. "Heads I win, tails you lose."
Posted by piminnowcheez on February 14, 2011 at 12:37 PM · Report this
1123
There's just way too much to say about this, so I did it on my blog post: "Yes, You Are Fat": http://thinking-it-through.tumblr.com/
Posted by DrJamesIncandenza on February 14, 2011 at 12:36 PM · Report this
1122
This is going to be a moot point in ten years, I'm pretty sure. Dieting doesn't work but certain nutritional supplements do--and not dangerous stimulants. People are fat because our bodies are malnourished. We are starving for certain nutrients, so we overeat to get more of the trace amounts in our food. The problem is in our food supply and our poor soil. The word will get out sooner or later.
Posted by Marrena on February 14, 2011 at 12:35 PM · Report this
Rob in Baltimore 1121
1114, People shouldn't stuff their mouths with Twinkies, and complain that the effect snack cakes have on your body makes some people less attracted to you physically.

That video said parents shouldn't feed their children junk food. Please point out why that is a wrong message?
Posted by Rob in Baltimore http://www.wishbookweb.com/ on February 14, 2011 at 12:33 PM · Report this
shw3nn 1120
@1106

"Except that if you stop eating, you die. It's not really the same, but do try again."

Things can be extreeeeeeemely similar without being completely identical. Food addiction and drug addiction are extreeeeeeemely similar without being completely identical. I am willing to stipulate that.

I don't see the need to try again. I don't see how that changes anything.
Posted by shw3nn on February 14, 2011 at 12:29 PM · Report this
hydrozoa 1119
@1090: that's great. but i wasn't actually talking about or to your comment in 865.
Posted by hydrozoa on February 14, 2011 at 12:26 PM · Report this
WeeblesWobble 1118
@1112, No, we can't dump on Dan when he's wrong, at least not directly. He's closed comments on all his Slog posts. Cowardly!
Posted by WeeblesWobble http://lipidlove.blogspot.com/2011/02/pointing-out-obvious.html on February 14, 2011 at 12:25 PM · Report this
hydrozoa 1117
@1090: that's great. but i wasn't actually talking about or to you in 865.
Posted by hydrozoa on February 14, 2011 at 12:24 PM · Report this
1116
@ 1080 littlesparrow 7: If you understand how much shame is involved in binge eating and if you can understand how scary it is for a fat person to actually exercise, eat, or sometimes just walk in public than I find it hard understand how you can say that you find "obesity" disgusting and that you are totally fine with finding it disgusting.

Other than you I fortunately never have been sexually abused. In fact, all the traumatic experiences that I made as a child/ teenager were mostly due to being fat. Yes, ironically enough, those experiences have contributed to my eating disorder. But I was fat BEFORE that - just less so. And until the shaming and bullying got really bad, I was actually an active and happy child.

As for overeating being the only cause of obesity: There is evidence that weight is to quite a large percentage inherited. Note that this does not contradict that people have on average been getting fatter since estimates of the heritability of a given trait only hold for a given environment, that is, some people are genetically predisposed to become fat in an environment where food is plentiful and the opportunity to exercise is scarce. There are also other factors that seem to contribute to weight gain – repeated weight cycling actually seems to be one of them, and so are certain chemicals in the environment and people have no complete control concerning how much they are exposed to these chemicals. There are also plenty of medications who have weight gain as a possible side effect – especially quite a few psychotropic drugs. Also, worrying about weight has been found to be a predictor of weight gain (and yes, they did control for actual weight – so it was not the actual weight of participants who drove the effect).

More importantly, however, even if a given person got fat by overeating and overeating alone it does not necessarily follow that this person would lose all the weight by simply normalizing food intake. There is data that people who have formerly been fat (and I mean truly fat, not 10 or 20 over what is considered "ideal") but have managed to lose all or a large part of their "excess" weight are not metabolically the same as people who have always been thin. In fact, they have metabolic parameters that are somewhat similar to that of a starving person.

You know, I actually might lose weight by doing what I am doing right now - normalizing my relationship with food and my body. If I do, I will be one of the lucky few for whom this is the case. But here is the thing: No matter what the actual outcome concerning weight, I will be both, mentally but also physically healthier when I succeed with this. I will have lower stress and anxiety levels. (And stress is a major factor in many of the diseases that are also linked to obesity.) I will be able to actually enjoy food. And I will finally, finally be able to live my life without wasting so much energy on matters that are trivial in the grand scheme, namely my weight. I just wish that society wouldn't make it so damn hard for me to actually do that.
More...
Posted by fatcarrot on February 14, 2011 at 12:24 PM · Report this
Rob in Baltimore 1115
Why do medical professionals hate fat people?

http://story.birminghamstar.com/index.ph…
Posted by Rob in Baltimore http://www.wishbookweb.com/ on February 14, 2011 at 12:22 PM · Report this
WeeblesWobble 1114
"But you can’t sit on the couch stuffing Twinkies in your mouth and bitch about how shallow your partner is for not finding you attractive anymore because some people get cancer. Please." - Dan Savage

And posting that Tim Minchin video was crass. Dan thinks bullying fat children is just fine, so long as they aren't gay. (Because Dan himself was a fat child who remains obsessed with food to this day. He controls every bite his kids take. He's said so. Lindy's opened up a true can of worms here.)
Posted by WeeblesWobble http://lipidlove.blogspot.com/2011/02/pointing-out-obvious.html on February 14, 2011 at 12:22 PM · Report this
yelahneb 1113
Huh - my comment from Friday has disappeared. Here it is again, though most of this has already been covered by this point:

Lindy, you are a beautiful person. Thank you for posting this; you are a smart, savvy lady.

Haters gonna hate; it's predictable as it is pointless. You don't like big girls? No one is asking you to, anymore than anyone is asking you to like gay people. What is being asked of you: NOT HATING THEM. At the very least. If you can manage it.

Telling someone with more weight than might be healthy to simply "stop being fat" is more or less like telling someone with chronic depression to simply "cheer up". If you're not genuinely interested in helping people with their issues, why are you calling them out, exactly?

Full disclosure: I like large, curvy women. Do you know what they look like to me? Women.
Posted by yelahneb http://www.strangebutharmless.com on February 14, 2011 at 12:16 PM · Report this
1112
Yes, Dan can be a little bit of an asshole, but he's _our_ asshole and his edginess contributes to what makes him such an effective (i.e., not boring) advocate for so many of the causes the commenters on SLOG hold near and dear.

Also, most of the commenters on SLOG are anonymous, or like to pretend they are. Myself included. That's cool. But Dan is not anonymous. You know his name, and his husband's and his son's. You know where he works. He is a public figure, who appears regularly at venues around the country, without security, so that you can go up and spit in his face, or shoot him, if you are so inclined. And, he regularly and unanonymously ridicules, slams, insults and otherwise calls out some of the nastiest and vilest and potentially violent members of American society. And he does it on behalf of the interests of many of us commenters.

What all this means is, while we anoymous SLOG commenters can dump on Dan when he's wrong, we DO NOT get to call Dan "craven" or "cowardly". Or "chickenshit." Those things he is not. And we if we already HAVE called him those things in the heat of the comment thread, we apologize. OK?
Posted by Eric from Boulder on February 14, 2011 at 12:14 PM · Report this
The Wretched Harmony 1111
See why I said Dan should now shut up about fat?

Lindy provided several links (Click on Lindy's links people! I can see a lot of you didn't read them). Links that showed Dan Savage mocking and shaming fat people. And how does he respond? With cherry picked links to some of the times when he talked about fat people without being a dick about it. Or as much of a dick.

As if showing that he is not always a dick to fat people refutes the accusation that he is a dick to fat people. Like saying that since the Mormon church doesn't only oppose the equal rights for gays (they find time to oppose other people's rights too), we can ignore that they do oppose equal rights. Or if we dig up some quotes of the Moromon leadership sometimes saying some non-hurtful things about gays, that makes up for their campaign for discrimination.

The problem is Savage doesn't really grasp what anecdotal evidence means; more technically, he reasons inductively when it suits his purpose, but conveniently shifts gears to deductive logic if that serves him. With the pit pull anecdotes and the youth pastor watch and the every child deserves a mother and father anecdotes, you kind of let it slide. It's amusing and maybe for a good cause. But you see what it comes to when you make your living on faulty logic? It comes around to bite you in the ass.

And turning off comments? Lame.

Concede, and quit while you're behind, Dan. Gracefully change the subject to Rick Santorum or the It Gets Better Project, or anything, but its time for you to move on. No need for theatrics or groveling. Just quit it.

More...
Posted by The Wretched Harmony on February 14, 2011 at 12:14 PM · Report this
1110
Fat or not, who shames their boss in front of thousands of his readers and fans and gets away with it? Wow
Posted by six five on February 14, 2011 at 12:11 PM · Report this
1109
I actually think Savage's response is classy. He's letting his record speak for itself, and not starting another dozen threads where commentors can go nuts taking his side and rubbing it in Lindy's face.
Posted by Daniel1979 on February 14, 2011 at 12:10 PM · Report this
Rob in Baltimore 1108
Could someone post an example of Dan expressing a clear "hatred for fatties"?
Posted by Rob in Baltimore http://www.wishbookweb.com/ on February 14, 2011 at 12:04 PM · Report this
STS 1107
I think Lindy is really pretty.
Posted by STS on February 14, 2011 at 12:01 PM · Report this
WeeblesWobble 1106
@1100 tried: "Food is an addiction. Over-eaters are like drug addicts."

Except that if you stop eating, you die. It's not really the same, but do try again.

Dan's new post seems pretty defensive. Sure, he's managed to be civil in several questions involving overweight people. But his hatred for fatties has been pretty clear in others. He's obviously pissed some people off, but rather than acknowledge that he's just saying "nuh-uh."

I'm finding Dan's column about 90% less interesting now. He doesn't really say anything novel. I guess I used to read it partly because he seemed like a good guy.
Posted by WeeblesWobble http://lipidlove.blogspot.com/2011/02/pointing-out-obvious.html on February 14, 2011 at 11:59 AM · Report this
More, I Say! 1105
While I respect and agree with almost everything Lindy has to say, I must deign to address the "List of Thin Privileges" is complete bullshit. I am fairly thin for my size, through absolutely no effort of my own. I'm just like this, my favorite activities include smoking pot and ordering Pagliacci, because they will deliver gelato to my door. And while I might not be marginalized to the extent that overweight folks are, I can say that about half of that list actually *does* apply to me.
If you think that thin/underweight folks don't get harassed for looking anorexic/too thin, or they don't have to deal with bullshit back-handed "compliments" from friend that merely seek to single you out for making them feel bad.
And being dismissed on my opinions on fashion/food/whatever because, "oh, you're so skinny." I am constantly identified by the size of my body. I hear about the size of my body daily. I am grouped and stereotyped because of the size of my body.
And if you think that my size doesn't affect my health, you're wrong again. My sized turned a stomach flu into a 3-day hospital stay because I was so depleted and weak.
I do have to deal with unsolicited advice about my diet from people who have deemed me "too skinny."
That list is crap.

Posted by More, I Say! on February 14, 2011 at 11:57 AM · Report this
reverend dr dj riz 1104
hey baconcat.. thanks ..this whole thing made me think of a song. from a musical too. dan likes musicals right ? from 'hair'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eqs3FXE2A…
Posted by reverend dr dj riz on February 14, 2011 at 11:52 AM · Report this
TVDinner 1103
Yeah, Savage comes off looking like he can't be bothered to actually respond to what Lindy said in her post, and his unwillingness to accept comments speaks volumes about his sanctimonious character.

I've been reading him since The Stranger was a few pages that folded in half, and I've never felt so little respect for him. Boo, hiss.
Posted by TVDinner http:// on February 14, 2011 at 11:50 AM · Report this
1102
New Dan post of more evidence in rebuttal! Where is our dance-off video? Kelly O, we need your help!
Posted by gloomy gus on February 14, 2011 at 11:47 AM · Report this
1101
@1079 ... very perceptive.

The more I actually think about what Lindy wrote -- and as much as I love her way with words -- I think she's just really, really off base here.
Posted by Daniel1979 on February 14, 2011 at 11:47 AM · Report this
shw3nn 1100
You know, I think this reaction is irrational and over the top. But it also makes complete sense to me.

Food is an addiction. Over-eaters are like drug addicts.

When you criticize addicts about their drug use, they fly off the handle. They do everything in their power to convince you that you shouldn't criticize them.

I was like that about smoking. When people talked about how it was bad for me, it made me LIVID. It was a visceral reaction, "HOW FECKING DARE YOU!"

I completely identified with Lindy's post except change, "I'm fat" to "I'm a smoker" and make the whole thing private because it's a much harder sell when it's about smoking.

Especially the whole, "I'm much more likely to lose weight if you stop talking about how I should lose weight." I've actually seen people make the argument, on many occasions, "When you tell me how bad it is for me, it makes me want to smoke more."

I'm not saying it's a lie, either. Facing a tough life change produces anxiety and your drug of choice usually helps you deal with anxiety. Laying down and giving in to that is no solution.

You probably shouldn't live in this beautifully circular construct where you cant' stop unless there's no reason for you to stop. But, if there's no reason for you to stop....

Instead, find a different way to deal with these emotions that won't likely end your life prematurely.
Posted by shw3nn on February 14, 2011 at 11:46 AM · Report this
WeeblesWobble 1099
@1092, your brain needs more calories. Go eat something.
Posted by WeeblesWobble http://lipidlove.blogspot.com/2011/02/pointing-out-obvious.html on February 14, 2011 at 11:42 AM · Report this
piminnowcheez 1098
@1079, well said.

I read through the links in the OP that are supposed to document Dan's fat-shaming, and seriously, I don't see it. I see him talking with the same characteristic humorous bluntness that he brings to everything, including himself.

Again, I like both Dan and Lindy and it seems senseless that this should turn into one against the other.
Posted by piminnowcheez on February 14, 2011 at 11:41 AM · Report this
Josh Bomb 1097
@1090 agreed, dan's refusal to let anyone comment on his rebuttal speaks louder than any of his boring out of context quotes from old columns.
Posted by Josh Bomb http://www.satanosphere.com on February 14, 2011 at 11:41 AM · Report this
Beetlecat 1096
I didn't realize the comments could go over 1000!
Posted by Beetlecat on February 14, 2011 at 11:40 AM · Report this
Jaymz 1095
I predict that the only way this thread ends is to crash the system, or do an editorial cut off.

HOWEVER - the very BEST way would be for Lindy and Dan to do a joint post here (either drawn swords or a slobbering kiss and make up) and THEN do a "thank you" cut off.....
Posted by Jaymz on February 14, 2011 at 11:38 AM · Report this
1094
Huh. Most of the Stranger staff made really, really supportive comments to Lindy's post. I wonder how they feel about Dan's cowardice? Working for someone who behaves like this must be really, um, interesting.
Posted by haunted leg on February 14, 2011 at 11:37 AM · Report this
WeeblesWobble 1093
Lindy is right. And some fat people think Dan is icky.
Posted by WeeblesWobble http://lipidlove.blogspot.com/2011/02/pointing-out-obvious.html on February 14, 2011 at 11:36 AM · Report this
Rob in Baltimore 1092
Every major health organization has said that obesity is unhealthy, but when Dan repeats their findings it's wrong?
Posted by Rob in Baltimore http://www.wishbookweb.com/ on February 14, 2011 at 11:32 AM · Report this
1091
Lindy, I'm sure you've seen this, but if you haven't....local fantabulous actor/director Kate Jaegar's performance of the Katie Thompson penned song, I'm Not Pregnant, from New Voices 8 ...hilarious. I love Kate so much. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V99yntE9…
Posted by concernedaboutmisinformation on February 14, 2011 at 11:30 AM · Report this
Madashell 1090
949: Wow, you completely misread and misunderstood me.

1. I was complimenting your comment at 865.

2. My "frivolous" compliment of Lindy's shoes is sincere and not some back-handed insult to her humanity. It was an off-topic item. I'd made other comments on the thread more relevant to the discussion. Besides, my hunch is that Lindy wouldn't object to a compliment of her shoes. If she herself didn't appreciate nice-looking shoes, she'd be wearing Crocs or Uggs. ANYWAY...

3. My reference to brevity was re: My previous posts. As a "morbidly obese" person myself, I could've offered my 10 paragraphs of my trials and tribulations, but opted for brevity. That's all. Whatever.

PS Dan not offering comments on his rebuttal speaks volumes.
Posted by Madashell on February 14, 2011 at 11:21 AM · Report this
1089
...but obviously we don't know what's happening in the office and we won't have any clues until either Dan or Lindy start posting again.


Absolutely true. I realize my posts are nothing more than speculation.
Posted by jade on February 14, 2011 at 11:20 AM · Report this
1088
Dan is definitely a bully, and pretty cowardly. Remember the way he bullied that local TV reporter, Marlee Ginter (I think that's her name?), because of an segment she reported that wasn't sex-positive enough, or something like that. Dan basically tried to ruin her career, so that if you googled her name, all this stuff about sex with goats came up. She eventually had to get her lawyer on his ass, and Dan had to stop and apologize on here -- but was too proud to admit he was forced to by threat of lawsuit, and said he was just doing it to be 'nice.' Yeah, right.
Posted by ian on February 14, 2011 at 11:19 AM · Report this
Matt from Denver 1087
@ Jade, maybe so. But that seems to be the way they do things on slog. I can think of other times this has happened (although not to the degree that it generated such a response).

I can see Dan being caught unaware or unprepared, but "blindsided" connotes a calculated sneak attack, and I think that's not what happened here. (It would be in keeping with his dramatic nature to take it that way; but obviously we don't know what's happening in the office and we won't have any clues until either Dan or Lindy start posting again.)
Posted by Matt from Denver on February 14, 2011 at 11:09 AM · Report this
1086
Lindy, you are most excellent and thank you for this post.

One thing to contribute for those who are trying to lose weight -- not eating anything fatty is not necessarily healthy. The overwhelming pressure put on women, gay men, etc. to stay thin causes many to avoid important, healthy fats that can be found in sources like avocados and olive/vegetable oils. We need these fats for a healthy immune system and they are also important for having enough energy for, among other things, exercising and being active. So if you do try to change your diet, please read up and if you can afford it, see a nutritionist to make sure your body is getting what it needs.
Posted by poettree on February 14, 2011 at 11:04 AM · Report this
1085
@1082- phew. Glad I'm not alone in my view on this issue. ;-)
Posted by Aedan Robinson on February 14, 2011 at 11:02 AM · Report this
1084
@1070. Hi Matt. I read the buildup. I wonder if she consulted Dan and told him that she'd be calling him out all over the Internet. I wonder if she showed her boss that much respect.

If she did, then good for her. But Dan's response is more indicative of someone who feels like he's been blindsided than not.
Posted by jade on February 14, 2011 at 10:59 AM · Report this
Josh Bomb 1081
Dan still thinks fat people are icky. Ewwww!

poor judgment on his part, considering he's been fighting against the conservative/'real merikans' exact same reaction to the 'mos for decades.
Posted by Josh Bomb http://www.satanosphere.com on February 14, 2011 at 10:47 AM · Report this
littlesparrow7 1080
@1046 fatcarrot

Though I appreciate and respect your experience, I'm still doubting the idea that obesity comes from anything other than overeating. Yes, there's such thing as thyroid issues and slow metabolism (which I have as a result of past anorectic behaviour), but they usually only lead to slight weight problems. If you're eating the proper calorie amount for your height and weight, and have made sure there's no underlying psychological issue or disease, then there's no reason to be obese.

There are some psychological and physical diseases that lead to overeating, and these underlying factors need to be resolved for a person to live a full and active life.

I do know, intimately, what binge eating is all about, along with anorexia and bulimia. I've been there, done that. I KNOW what shame linked with food can do to a person. It's awful. It took be awhile, but I finally realized that my food issues were related to past sexual abuse I'd experienced. Before I made that connection, the problem had complete control over me. I'm not saying everyone with an eating problem has experienced sexual abuse, but I do believe that every addictive behaviour has an underlying psychological origin. You can't get rid of the addiction without honestly and courageously addressing the pain.

The problem I have with basic dieting and exercise programs is that they don't address the problem or the core of the issue. If a person is eating (or not eating...in the case of anorexia), there's an underlying issue that first has to be exposed, fully uncovered in all its ugliness, and then dealt with in full. If not, the person will never have control of their bodies, their impulses, or ultimately...their wellbeing.
Posted by littlesparrow7 http://vesper7.tumblr.com/ on February 14, 2011 at 10:46 AM · Report this
1079
Just want to comment here, finally, after over a thousand responses.

The comments seem pretty much divided in terms of the details concerning obesity and the many issues involved with it. The bigger message, though, is one I can latch onto- which is that we love you Lindy. You bring laughter and joy to most of us who read your work because you are an intelligent, witty, incredibly eloquent individual. And as a writer technically we never even have to see what you look like physically- so I have to honestly say no one should give a damn what you look like.

HOWEVER- that is where my love ends. Your message of "I don't give a fuck what you think" is both inspirational and a little delusional/dangerous. I completely agree with the people here pointing out that if you truly DIDN'T give a flying fuck you wouldn't have so passionately written what you did. You care. And honestly it's important that you care. That everyone cares. Fat, skinny, average- it doesn't matter WHAT your weight is, generally speaking. It matters what your habits are. If you are 263lbs, but eat plenty of veggies, fruits, and keep the processed foods to a reasonable level, exercise regularly, and maintain an active, mentally stimulating existence then you are probably quite healthy and not, in fact, a drain on society.

But it is very, VERY rare for a person of your height and size to be doing all this and not seeing some form of change to their body mass. And when you honestly analyze your habits I'm sure there are a few little things you could be doing to improve your health (regardless of whether that will help your weight- though it most likely will). In any event my last comment on that would be as long as you are keeping yourself healthy enough to avoid Type II Diabetes, or any other fat-related medical issues then keep on truckin'. If not? Then your "fuck you I'm fine" isn't exactly correct or a healthy mental state.

In concern with all this Dan Hate? Dear god. I mean seriously. Dear. God. I went back and read his works. I've read almost every single thing he's written- and honestly? No, sorry, he does not hate fat people and his rhetoric is not toxic. All of these people hailing Dan as the Fat Antichrist and how much of a "fat Bully" he is really disturb me.

It feels a lot like Isaac Haye's response to Southpark's episode about Scientology. He spends nearly, what, 9 or 10 seasons on that show, participating in the complete lambasting of every pop culture institution, organized religion, philosophical ideology, social group and cause. But suddenly, after the show set its sights on Scientology he quits the show in a huff- spouting "How DARE you attack my religion! You never show this kind of disrespect to anything else and it is obvious your biased hatred for my religious institution!" Which left the makers of the show scratching their collective heads. Ripping apart religion is a corner-stone of Southpark and has been since their very first short (Santa Versus Jesus). But the minute they attack HIS religion it's suddenly hate speech worthy of him severing ties? Pathetic.

Dan is a blunt motherfucker. He calls it like he sees it. His "vitriol" about fat people is no more or less than any other group out there. His anger over the the Professional Gay Community's seeming need to blame the person who contracted HIV while staunchly defending the person who gave it to the individual being a good example. Sure he's 100% for gay rights, but that doesn't mean he's unwilling to call the gay community out for their own bullshit.

And the same exact thing can be said about his opinion of fat people. He calls them out on the overall health detriments of such a body-type and generally the kind of lifestyle that (not always, but more often than not) propagates it. And MORE often than not he's blaming our society and it's institutionalized propagation of obesity with their subsidies and food lobbyists just as much as individual responsibility. It's just in this case he's using the exact same language and temperament in concern with something that affects YOU- and suddenly you find him repulsive for it. Repulsive and evil for doing the same thing with the subject of body fat that he does for every other subject he talks about.

Just because it's suddenly closer to home does not mean he's treating the subject with any more or less respect than he treats anything else. You are simply seeing it that way.

Finally I have to agree with post, what was it, 448? The commenter wrote: "All that said, I'm not so sure about this equivalence between being fat and being gay. Setting aside the marriage thing, I've never heard of someone being beaten or killed by a couple of thugs for being fat, or having their parents drill into them that they are a moral abomination for being overweight. I'm not trying to be insensitive; I'm genuinely curious." And I agree completely with the point she is making. Sorry, Lindy- that is utter bullshit. Fat people and gay people aren't even in the same stratosphere. Sure there is absolutely a problem in our country, especially in our schools, with people bullying others over their weight. But I rarely hear about a person getting beat up or physically harassed or receiving even close to the same kind of hatred that gay kids get. Do overweight kids deserve an It Gets Better message of their own? Absolutely. But you are dead wrong if you think Gay and Fat are in any way equivalent.
More...
Posted by Aedan Robinson on February 14, 2011 at 10:44 AM · Report this
1078
Wow...1077...the price of a cheese pizza and a large soda at Panucci's.
Posted by j.lee on February 14, 2011 at 10:44 AM · Report this
1077
Wow 1073, way to be a condescending douchebag.
Posted by UNPAID COMMENTER on February 14, 2011 at 10:34 AM · Report this
1076
also exercise is the best thing for your mental health.
Posted by natalie on February 14, 2011 at 10:33 AM · Report this
Joe Szilagyi 1075
@1066 like I said, may have said. So much of this is interpreted differently by different people. As a heavy dude that's been both thin and heavy in several cycles, calling me a fatass is water off my back, because I know that and I know exactly why I'm fat, and why I'm de-fatting right now. But by the same token, I'm sure there are gays and blacks and others out there that the most nasty of comments will be met with a cheerful "fuck you too" and it won't even bother them for whatever reason--while others will be crushed. We're all unique. Obviously, things that Dan has said or written have incensed Lindy, and if they've done that to her--they've done it to others as well.
Posted by Joe Szilagyi http://twitter.com/joeszi on February 14, 2011 at 10:33 AM · Report this
1074
I think it is officially time for a Dan VS Lindy dance off!!
Posted by high and bi on February 14, 2011 at 10:30 AM · Report this
Alanmt 1073
Dan's response would be approved by Miss Manners. Polite, explanatory, disclaiming, and not allowing for his readers to slam someone who appears to be a colleague he respects. Ms. Manners would not approve of Ms West's post, however.

I don't think Dan is the enemy, Ms. West.

As for the rant, which curiously manages to mix self-empowerment with victimhood, blah. Maybe you ought to stop assuming every fat person's experience and ability is identical to yours. Maybe you ought to learn to separate your friends from your enemies. And maybe you should treat other human beings as imperfect but wanting to be nice and do the right thing, instead of as cruel oppressors. Let me guess, women's studies?

Posted by Alanmt on February 14, 2011 at 10:30 AM · Report this
1072
as a feminist, i totally get that a woman's body does not exist to be sexually attractive to men. i don't wear make-up, i don't shave my legs - because i don't feel like wasting time on that stuff. if you don't like how my body looks, don't look at it. as a nurse, it is completely obvious to me that being overweight is unhealthy. frankly, it becomes exhausting to take care of fat people who demand double dinner trays. as a person who has always used food to deal with emotional stress, i know how hard it is to eat healthy & exercise. i empathize. but i also know that it makes me feel a million times better if i do it.
Posted by natalie on February 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM · Report this
Josh Bomb 1071
MOST COMMENTED FOREVER.

really, i appreciate your rebuttal to Dan's hateful comments Lindy.

Posted by Josh Bomb http://www.satanosphere.com on February 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM · Report this
Matt from Denver 1070
@ 1060, there was a lot of buildup. Read "Ban Fat Marriage," then "RE: Ban Fat Marriage" (and pay particular attention to Dan's comments there - THEY are what informed this whole shitstorm). If you still think Dan could possibly have been "blindsided" by this - well, maybe by the degree of the response, but he all but begged for a post like this.
Posted by Matt from Denver on February 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM · Report this
1069
..but i suspect it will be one long assed while before dan will be able to shake the image of his new persona as editor in chief of 'the daily planet'
Oh riz, that is just lovely. Thank you!
Posted by gloomy gus on February 14, 2011 at 10:26 AM · Report this
1068
I read your response to Dan's original statement and I felt you were projecting a bit. He was slippery retorting to the ridiculous slippery slope argument being made in the Iowa debate regarding health statistics and gays. You are the one who decided it was a personal jab at you because I guess you feel guilty about your muffin top or something.

You have way more control over your weight than anyone has over their sexuality. I say this as a straight man who is ~25 pounds heavier than I intend to be (I fluctuate in the winter time due to inactivity and heavy carb foods). You see who I blamed there? Myself. I don;t do shit because it;'s cold outside. I have the second helping of stuffing or pumpkin pie. I am the reason my jeans don't fit. And so are you.

You like links I see, so savor this: http://www.theonion.com/articles/glandul…
Posted by Mr. Ed on February 14, 2011 at 10:25 AM · Report this
1067
Oooh, what I wouldn't give to be a fly on the wall in the Stranger offices this morning.
Posted by Compass Rose on February 14, 2011 at 10:25 AM · Report this
Rob in Baltimore 1066
1061, What shaming or bullying commentary has he made?
Posted by Rob in Baltimore http://www.wishbookweb.com/ on February 14, 2011 at 10:23 AM · Report this
1065
You know what's sad? Even people that are thin or skinny feel pressured to be thinner or skinnier from their friends, work etc. I weigh 150 lbs and have been told I need to lose weight at work, have felt overweight in comparison to anorexic gay men who look at you sideways if they can't see your kidneys.
Posted by grayni on February 14, 2011 at 10:22 AM · Report this
Matt from Denver 1064
@ Rob, like you, Dan missed the point by a country mile.
Posted by Matt from Denver on February 14, 2011 at 10:20 AM · Report this
Joe Szilagyi 1063
@1061 I suspect a lot of people wanted Dan to walk back any shaming or bullying-type commentary he may have made in the past in regards to fat people, and perhaps to say he won't do such things anymore. Which, as Dan has become the de facto anti-bullying spokesman at present, is where they're likely coming from.
Posted by Joe Szilagyi http://twitter.com/joeszi on February 14, 2011 at 10:17 AM · Report this
reverend dr dj riz 1062
@1052... well technically no.. he called kate harding that a few years ago..but his response to lindy was to link and quote his response to kate..and then close the comments..there won't be blows of course (..although a shoe tossing weave tearing springer styled throwdown is what would end this 'conversation' proper.. )..but i suspect it will be one long assed while before dan will be able to shake the image of his new persona as editor in chief of 'the daily planet'
Posted by reverend dr dj riz on February 14, 2011 at 10:13 AM · Report this
Rob in Baltimore 1061
Many here are complaining about Dan's response, but what did he say that was wrong?
Posted by Rob in Baltimore http://www.wishbookweb.com/ on February 14, 2011 at 10:12 AM · Report this
1060
I don't think that Dan is a coward for not allowing comments. I think he just doesn't want to hear the same 'ole, same 'ole again. He's heard it all before. And what could possibly be said there that hasn't already been said here?

He gave the response he thinks Lindy deserves. I just wish he'd edited out the typos this time.

Something tells me that Lindy didn't run this by him first. Something tells me that he was hit with this blindsided. I have no way of knowing this, except that I think that Dan would have shown a hell of a lot more respect to her if he'd had even a small inkling of what was coming.
Posted by jade on February 14, 2011 at 10:08 AM · Report this
Westlake, son! 1059
I'd support your application for "The Biggest Loser."
Posted by Westlake, son! on February 14, 2011 at 10:07 AM · Report this
1058
"Finally, my brothers, beware of doing wrong to any hermit. How could a hermit forget? How could he repay? Like a deep well is a hermit. It is easy to throw in a stone; but if the stone sank to the bottom, tell me, who would get it out again? Beware of insulting the hermit. But if you have done so--well, then kill him too."
Posted by Central Scrutinizer on February 14, 2011 at 10:02 AM · Report this
CharlesF 1056
Lindy...you are hot. I don't think you need to feel offended by Dan or anybody else.
Posted by CharlesF on February 14, 2011 at 9:56 AM · Report this
venomlash 1055
This thread has no excuse for being this fat. I don't care if it's a controversial topic, which of course can't be changed. That's not enough to make this thread fat. The real reason is that a bunch of people chose to post in it. If so many people are going to post this much in the thread, it's the thread's own fault when it can't fit into its old bandwidth anymore.
Posted by venomlash on February 14, 2011 at 9:55 AM · Report this
Baconcat 1054
@1052: No, Riz isn't in the office, I'm sure. He's usually somewhere increasing his powers as a Seattle-area Music God.
Posted by Baconcat on February 14, 2011 at 9:55 AM · Report this
Canuck 1053
Lissa @1044 (Bet that's the only time I'll get to write *that* on Slog...)
Happy Valentine's Day to you, too! Glad to see wittle bunnies have trumped rabid snow cats...spring must be coming to the Pacific Northwest... xxoo
Posted by Canuck on February 14, 2011 at 9:54 AM · Report this
Lissa 1052
@1047: Wait. Are you in the office right now? Did you just hear that? Crap! This is going to end in blows.
Posted by Lissa on February 14, 2011 at 9:50 AM · Report this
1051
Eva, I was always under the impression that Dan was kind of a passively loathing individual, especially now that he has been doing this for so many years. I used to get a kick out of his gay bathhouse bashing. Some of the advice he gives to teenagers and young adults, with the whole get over yourself and move on with your lives while painfully trying to sugar coat, makes me titter.

Not to mention pitbulls

Now Dan gets to try even more EXTRA hard to inflate the verbiage around his feelings of something else he doesn't like.
Posted by former tri-state on February 14, 2011 at 9:49 AM · Report this
Delishuss 1050
@1040 No one's been trying to shame you sweetheart. You might just be missing the point.
Posted by Delishuss on February 14, 2011 at 9:44 AM · Report this
1049
What would be the point of having comments allowed on Dan's post? Isn't it obvious that

1) if you agree with Lindy you are just going to dump on Dan

or

2) you are a fat hater and since Dan has posted his disagreement (you can believe it or not) with you, why on earth would he want to hear support from you?
Posted by jenesasquatch on February 14, 2011 at 9:42 AM · Report this
Lose-Lose 1048
Hulk Like Big Boobs!
Hulk Like Lindy!
No matter big or small!
Hulk Think Dan Weak!
Posted by Lose-Lose on February 14, 2011 at 9:41 AM · Report this
reverend dr dj riz 1047
i think dan just called lindy a 'dishonest paranoid douchebag'..
yeah ..i think that's what he said ...
Posted by reverend dr dj riz on February 14, 2011 at 9:39 AM · Report this
1046
@littlesparrow7 (984)

You seem to equate obesity and overeating. However, those two things are not the same: One is a physical and the other is a behavior, and while overeating certainly can contribute to obesity it is not the only factor. Plus, even if someone got fat by overeating their current weight does not give you any how they it at any given in time, or how they have been eating in the last weeks, even months. Also, for some of us fatties not trying to lose weight anymore means giving up a self-destructive behavior. I will go into more detail concerning this fatty’s history. Maybe that will make you understand a bit better… sorry, this is going to be long.

I have been fat as long as I can think. When I look childhood photos now, I am actually amazed that I do not look “that” fat, but I still was fat enough from a very early age on to make my pediatrician tell my parents that they needed to watch my food intake. And watch they did. I have lovely parents, but the fact that they constantly made me second-guess my body’s internal hunger and fullness signals (“Do you really want to eat this? Think about it. Are you REALLY hungry?”) combined with my teachers’ well-intended but sometimes cruel remarks (“If you don’t lose weight you will never get a boyfriend”) and the taunting and bullying of other kids significantly contributed to me developing maladaptive behaviors around food (such as getting up from the table before I was satisfied and then sneaking and later buying food secretly some time later, crying and feeling terribly ashamed while eating it, and later hiding the empty packaging in a desk drawer or a corner of my wardrobe because I was scared that my mum would see them if I threw them into the trash bin). Also, I started to hate my body and the constant message that my body was “broken” made me more reluctant to engage in physical activities that I actually enjoyed such as dancing and swimming. As a fat girl, I couldn’t be any good at dancing, after all, everyone knew that, including me, and while I was a good swimmer going to the pool was basically equally to asking others to bully me and call me names. When I was 11 or 12 I had developed full blown binge eating disorder.

I do not think people who comment on the “addictive nature of food” or on how there is a need to stigmatized overeating understand how much shame there is in binge eating already and how that shame contributes to the disorder. You feel bad about something, you have the urge to binge (often because under stress your self-control around food breaks down, something that has been shown again and again to be true for restricted eaters), at some point you give in, and even while you are eating you start calling yourself names in you head. This makes you feel terrible, and that in turn often contributes to the next binge. In addition to that, weeks or months of binge eating alternated with weeks or months of “successful” dieting in my case. I have fasted, dieted, and followed weight-loss programs supervised by doctors: I have done it all. And I always was “successful”, i.e., I always lost weight in the short term – lots of weight. In fact, I was called a “paragon” several times because I always, always stuck to my diet without cheating, eating less than I was “allowed” to eat, exercising more than I was asked to, several times losing up to 30 or 40 kg – until I just couldn’t keep it up any longer and started to regain. Lots of people will say that I would have needed to stick to the respective program for the rest of my life. And indeed, in order to keep the weight down I would have had to do just that. But here is the thing: Those weight-loss efforts had always a price. They came at the price of being constantly hungry and obsessed with food, and that obsession got only stronger the longer I kept up the respective diet. They came at the price at having less energy to do other things in my life. They came at the price of losing hair and once also my period (and it only returned several months after I had started to regain weight – and please note that even at my lowest weight since puberty I was still officially “overweight” bordering on “obese”).
Today I am a 31-year old “morbidly obese” woman. I try to engage in physical movement that is fun for me – something that isn’t easy, because believe me, going to a dancing class when you are fat or doing aqua fitness requires a lot of courage and on some days I do not have that courage, exactly because I am well aware that people find my body, my “obesity” disgusting. And I have recently given up dieting (and I define dieting as any conscious restriction of food intake). This isn’t the easy way out. In fact, this is incredibly hard. I have always, always craved social acceptance to a far higher degree than it is healthy – and I know that my fatness stands in the way of being totally accepted by others. Even today, every single comment from others how I “should” lose weight, how my weight is unhealthy, every implication that my body is broken, every disgusted look throws me back into a spin of eating disordered thoughts and not letting turn those thoughts into eating disordered behaviors – both, fasting or bingeing – requires more self-regulation and will power than people can imagine. Yes, my weight is a risk factor for certain diseases. But I believe (and that opinion is based on months and years of research and hard thinking) that continuing the cycle and not accepting my body as it is right now is a far greater threat for my mental and physical health.

You say you do not judge fat people but at the same time you say obesity is disgusting. You equate obesity with overeating and food addiction. I do not doubt that you mean well – but please, if you really want to have a positive influence on fat people’s health than listen to them, listen to their experiences. Create safe spaces for us to exercise. Encourage us and everyone else to cook, to truly enjoy food, to listen to our internal hunger and fullness cues. But also rethink what you are implying when you say obesity is disgusting. You cannot separate a person’s fat from the rest of their body.
More...
Posted by fatcarrot on February 14, 2011 at 9:36 AM · Report this
Eva Hopkins 1045
@ 1040 A potential correct response is:

"Although I feel that being overweight is unhealthy, & that we as a nation have an obesity epidemic; & I reserve the right to find whoever I want to attractive, & that doesn't include fat people, I recognize that overweight folks are people too, & deserve to be spoken to as respectfully as I would address any other group of human beings. Also, I don't happen to know the cause of anyone else's body shape, whether fat or not, so unless asked, I'm gonna keep my snap judgments to myself. 'cause the body of someone I don't know is NONE OF MY FUCKING BUSINESS."

"Also, when expressing my concerns over obesity in the U.S.A., I'm gonna do my best to keep my loathing in check, so whatever good & factual I have to say doesn't get lost in the shittiness of my disgust."

Or something like that.
Posted by Eva Hopkins http://www.lunamusestudios.com on February 14, 2011 at 9:32 AM · Report this
Lissa 1044
Swinging by to say hi to Gus and Canuck and Kim and wish them a happy Valentine's Day!
@865 etc: Hydroza you rock!
@966: Riz, you are, and always will be awesome.
I must also add that I am disappointed in Dan for not allowing comments on his post this morning.
Posted by Lissa on February 14, 2011 at 9:30 AM · Report this
v-man 1043
lots of angry fat people here it seems...
Posted by v-man on February 14, 2011 at 9:25 AM · Report this
1042
Douchelord, your are indeed a douche. And Andy, you're an asshole, too. I am an "over"weight woman, and my husband finds me to be the most beautiful woman in the world. Guess what? I'm also "over"weight when I work out and watch every single calorie that goes into my mouth. So I don't need other people doing it for me, too. Yes, being overweight can negatively affect your health. So can smoking. So can drinking. So can stress and working too much. But do we, as a culture, judge people the same way for these decisions? No. In fact, in the U.S., we applaud those who are willing to go the extra mile and put in a 50+ hour work week. And much of the images in our media glorify the "nightlife." "Gotta little Captain in you?" F*ck that s*it. I'm tired of the hypocritical messages in our culture. And if I want a piece of chocolate cake, and decide to sit my ass down in front of the television and relax instead of busting my ass at the gym after spending my entire day educating our nation's youth, I'm reaching for it with gusto. Sorry if you don't like looking at my glorious curves, because I like them, and so does my husband. End of story. Deal with it.
Posted by dieseldee99 on February 14, 2011 at 9:25 AM · Report this
Fistique 1041
What an absolutely craven response from Dan Savage today. Disallowed comments indeed.
Posted by Fistique on February 14, 2011 at 9:23 AM · Report this
1040
I'm skimming the comment thread, and I'm not really impressed. For the record, I don't HATE fat people, but as part of my growing maturity I recognize there are plenty of people that love and admire fat people, even though I'm not one of them. I have a few fat friends here and there, and I don't care. They also happen to be dating more than I, and totally applaud them and support them. So long their is a mutual understanding that sex is not part of the friendship, everything is hunky dory.

There is more to dating than just being attractive physically. There is chemistry, logistics, time, money, and comparable values and agenda. I would be more impressed if people focused on THAT than their weight.

Do I feel that fat is less healthy, less attractive etc. etc. Well, yes, and I refuse to be shamed into feeling what I am and am not attracted to. That said, it's not my place or my job to be shamed into loving someone who just doesn't do it for me. And apparently, in many cases. I don't have to, there are other people willing to pick up the slack that I apparently don't have the "maturity" to accept.

I actually like Lindy's article. It is fun and witty, but I think she misses the point with respect to Dan. I'm not sure there is an answer that would be satisfying to so many of you besides a full on apology AND a night of sweet passionate love with Dan Savage. Is it not enough to say, you have the right to be whatever size you want to be. It is not enough to be accepted for who you are. It is not enough to be applauded for coming to terms with yourself and having a happy and fulfilling life?

Or is it about sweet gay love with Dan Savage? Tell us, is this what you want to hear? Because I am not sure what the correct response is.
More...
Posted by former tri-state on February 14, 2011 at 9:18 AM · Report this
sevendaughters 1039
I love how Dan's 'response' (cut + pasted) makes him appear like he's still sneering down the end of his nose.
Posted by sevendaughters on February 14, 2011 at 9:17 AM · Report this
1037
Mitten @ 1003 I get the feeling you are a basically kind person. It's your reading comprehension I have concerns about. Did you really read Lindy's post or did you just want in on this big ole comment party? Maybe go read 865 and see if that helps you understand that the actual matter of fat or health are secondary to how ridiculously wrong it can be to assume from a passing glance anything important about another person and how monstrously wrongheaded it is to demand other people contort themselves to your sensitivities. I hope we can all work on are biases so we can be more kind to each other even when we don't like what others do with their lives.
Posted by good vagina on February 14, 2011 at 9:14 AM · Report this
rinohog 1036
I think all the anger and hostility on this blog towards Dan should really be directed at society and at people's own feelings about themselves. Society shames you (that is the first wrong), you feel the shame (that is the second, and the only one you have control over). If there was no basis behind the millions of studies on obesity, than you could do your own studies that show just how healthy and wonderful the US is.

You can either accept that you are fat and leave it at that, OR you can accept you are fat and that means you will have to work that much harder than everyone else to be healthy. Just like a kid with dyslexia accepts that they are not stupid, they just have to work that much harder to prove they are not. Or a person with multiple sclerosis has to accept that they have a life-long disease and they will have to work that much harder to have the "normal" life everyone else takes for granted.

And Dan probably didn't allow comments because he doesn't want to steal Lindy's thunder. Slog record in the making!
Posted by rinohog on February 14, 2011 at 9:12 AM · Report this
1034
notice how a few of these affect someone's weight. YOU NEVER KNOW ANOTHER PERSON'S SITUATION AND IF YOU ARE ARROGANT ENOUGH TO BELIEVE YOU DO YOU ARE SIMPLY AN ASSHOLE!

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/…
Posted by xina on February 14, 2011 at 9:10 AM · Report this
rinohog 1033
I think all the anger and hostility on this blog towards Dan should really be directed at society and at people's own feelings about themselves. Society shames you (that is the first wrong), you feel the shame (that is the second, and the only one you have control over). If there was no basis behind the millions of studies on obesity, than you could do your own studies that show just how healthy and wonderful the US is.

I have a disease that I did not choose, and it makes it unpleasant to be around me sometimes. It also increases my risk of various cancers and other health risks IF I DON'T DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. I don't always win that battle, but it is my battle to fight, not the people who think explosive diarrhea is gross, not the people who love me and want me to live the longest healthiest life possible. People should not assume things about you based on your appearance, but you should not give up just because it is hard. You will regret it down the road.
Posted by rinohog on February 14, 2011 at 9:07 AM · Report this
Andy 1031
First. (Apologies if this was posted already.)
Posted by Andy on February 14, 2011 at 9:04 AM · Report this
Billy Nilly 1030
Good Lord. Lindy puts 'em on the table and calls her boss out, at no small risk to her job, creates an amazing dialogue on a complicated topic, and the only response he can come up with is basically ; "Oh well, I already answered this, so I don't have to say anything new. Plus, no comments! *Runs off to hide in office with the door closed*"

- A million respect points for Dan Savage.

+ Five billion respect points for Lindy.
Posted by Billy Nilly http://NONE on February 14, 2011 at 9:03 AM · Report this
Joe Szilagyi 1029
Goddamn it, Dan! This is America. We expect for you to debase yourself now, or didn't you get the memo? You can always turn immediately around afterward, pull a David Vitter, and say it's all forgiven because you've found the Lord and/or checked into alcohol rehab.
Posted by Joe Szilagyi http://twitter.com/joeszi on February 14, 2011 at 9:01 AM · Report this
1027
@1017 That was beautifully said, Kim.
Posted by jenesasquatch on February 14, 2011 at 8:56 AM · Report this
1026
Savage's non-response - and the fact that no one is allowed to comment on it - speaks volumes about his character (or lack thereof).

Dan may be a thin person, but he's also a very, very small one.
Posted by Mr. X on February 14, 2011 at 8:50 AM · Report this
Matt from Denver 1025
Maybe, just maybe, Dan's closing of comments on his response is meant to keep generating comments on this thread, thus to help ensure it remains the record holding thread for a long, long time. But it was a very weak response. VERY weak.
Posted by Matt from Denver on February 14, 2011 at 8:49 AM · Report this
Canuck 1024
@1019 Who says he's wrong? Strong feelings and 1000+ comments don't determine right from wrong.
Posted by Canuck on February 14, 2011 at 8:47 AM · Report this
Canuck 1023
It's a fine waste of time, gus. Personally, I would like a shower, blow dry, and make-up app, so that I wouldn't have to waste time on hygiene and could, instead, keep refreshing this thread every 5 minutes...
Posted by Canuck on February 14, 2011 at 8:39 AM · Report this
Eva Hopkins 1022
@ Kim: that's what I hope. &, hope you are feeling better.
Posted by Eva Hopkins http://www.lunamusestudios.com on February 14, 2011 at 8:39 AM · Report this
1021
Am I the only one who hears Maggie Gallagher's voice when I read Dan's "response"? It's the typical "(insert group here) can do whatever they want and don't deserve to be mocked or discriminated against or poked with sticks. But the rest of us don't have to accept their lifestyle/behavior/choices."
Posted by Quincent on February 14, 2011 at 8:39 AM · Report this
rob! 1020
Huh. There's an automatic jump in comments after 999. So the web gnomes foresaw that this day would come! Clever, clever web gnomes.
Posted by rob! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZBdUceCL5U on February 14, 2011 at 8:35 AM · Report this
STJA 1019
Dan doesn't know how to apologize, it seems. Or admit when he's wrong.
Posted by STJA on February 14, 2011 at 8:33 AM · Report this
kim in portland 1017
Maybe, the response that matters was expressed directly to Lindy? I don't know. But, I'd like to hope that his previously stated affection and respect for Lindy means that they have spoken, her feelings have been addressed, and they have made peace.
Posted by kim in portland http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/11/fast-paced_video_provides_a_fu.html on February 14, 2011 at 8:31 AM · Report this
seatackled 1016
@2

What do you weigh today?
Posted by seatackled on February 14, 2011 at 8:30 AM · Report this
STJA 1015
Grats lindy!
Posted by STJA on February 14, 2011 at 8:28 AM · Report this
1014
Lindy, please, is this a pity column? Do you think 'fit' people do not share in the similar generic sense of shame that are referring to? seems like you are just having trouble dealing with basic steps in life, albeit difficult ones, but basic emotions of inclusion and acceptance. We all share shame. Fat people, fit people, little people and tall people. Wish you would have not written this selfish piece.
Posted by othersideoftown on February 14, 2011 at 8:27 AM · Report this
1012
Canuck, it's not an app, unless by "app" you mean my ability to give myself nothing better to do...
Posted by gloomy gus on February 14, 2011 at 8:27 AM · Report this
seattleeco 1011
@975 re: your point 1. Are you fucking kidding me?! The fact that you believe only one gender perpetuates body image stereotypes discounts anything else you have to say on the subject of weight.
Posted by seattleeco on February 14, 2011 at 8:25 AM · Report this
1010
@987 Yes, people think they are helping. My point was that their "help" is so incredibly off topic that their comments should be deleted. I get that people (men especially) go straight to "fixing" the problem when someone else expresses hurt. We really need to learn to hold back the "fix" and just listen. Be supportive. I will ask for your suggestions if I want them. If I tell you my rape survival story don't explain to me at length about how to balance my checkbook. You are not helping no matter how relevant financial responsibility is to a good life.

When a comment to a post demonstrates a total lack of comprehension then it is not worthy of being retained. The comment "no fat chicks" is more on topic than any anecdote of dieting success/failure. I disagree with the comment "no fat chicks" and find it appalling that someone reached the point in their life that they would post that. But it's honestly on Lindy's topic.

Lindy knows she's fat (see title of post). Lindy has heard of dieting and exercise before (she hasn't lived her life under a rock). (not referring to you here Canuck): Go back, re-read the post, and search your soul for some shred of decency. Fat people are not "fair game."
Posted by jenesasquatch on February 14, 2011 at 8:25 AM · Report this
Canuck 1009
(Waving back, gus...) And don't even TRY to tell me that posting at 600, 900, and 1000 is just luck...it's an app, right?
Posted by Canuck on February 14, 2011 at 8:22 AM · Report this
Cracker Jack 1008
Dammit, now I love Lindy even more. How to explain this to Mrs. Jack... I'm with you, sister, and thank you for speaking up.
Posted by Cracker Jack on February 14, 2011 at 8:21 AM · Report this
1007
Dan had all weekend, and that was the best he could do?

*currently singing 'sad trombone' to myself*
Posted by infrequentposter on February 14, 2011 at 8:20 AM · Report this
1006
LIttle doubt about what's causing the weight... how about downing 2500 calories in one sitting. http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/uneed… Gluttony should not be supported.
Posted by Being Stranger on February 14, 2011 at 8:14 AM · Report this
1004
(Waves to Canuck)
Posted by gloomy gus on February 14, 2011 at 8:10 AM · Report this
1003
I don't believe in shaming of any kind, and I truly think it's great that Lindy and other people on this board love their bodies. But you could insert "smoker" or "alcoholic" or any other addiction here in place of "fat." And there are plenty of people who will also argue that it is their right to smoke or drink, and they are perfectly happy being a smoker, or an alcoholic or whatever. Fine. But I still think it's unrealistic to get defensive when other people think that kind of overindulgence is unhealthy.

So Dan is not missing the point; he's just pointing out the obvious.
Posted by mitten on February 14, 2011 at 8:08 AM · Report this
1002
No comments allowed? Savage, like all bullies, is ultimately a coward. No comments allowed?
Posted by citykinetics@yahoo.com on February 14, 2011 at 8:07 AM · Report this
Simone 1001
Yes! 1000
Posted by Simone on February 14, 2011 at 8:07 AM · Report this
1000
Can someone more skilled than I please insert the sad trombone sound in honor of Dan's reply post? Thank you.
Posted by gloomy gus on February 14, 2011 at 8:06 AM · Report this
Eva Hopkins 999
Oh well, at least a bunch of us had a (hopefully) constructive conversation. Though remind me when I get closer to my first goal weight to not sound as bitter & self-righteous as some (not all) of the "I used to be fat" people.
Posted by Eva Hopkins http://www.lunamusestudios.com on February 14, 2011 at 8:05 AM · Report this
998
I love that this post is a history-maker. You're the best, Lindy.
Posted by Lo on February 14, 2011 at 8:03 AM · Report this
ak47 997
i commented on this thread
Posted by ak47 on February 14, 2011 at 7:59 AM · Report this
996
No comments allowed?
Savage, like all bullies, is ultimately a coward.
Posted by citykinetics@yahoo.com on February 14, 2011 at 7:58 AM · Report this
995
So close!
Posted by brokn2pieces on February 14, 2011 at 7:54 AM · Report this
994
Thanks Urgutha Forka, I would have completely missed hydrozoa @865, since I'm only spot-checking now.

"excuse me, i don't know you, but i'm looking at you and i don't have a boner right now--you need to do something about that."

Funniest thing I've read in a long time!
Posted by Margaret L. on February 14, 2011 at 7:52 AM · Report this
993
Wow. What a complete cop-out non-response from Dan Savage. Is anyone surprised? That guy can dish it out like whoa, but cannot take it at all. I wonder if Lindy's next missive to him will be her two weeks' notice... I sort of hope so. She's too good for this rag.
Posted by haunted leg on February 14, 2011 at 7:52 AM · Report this
YanaBanana 992
Thank you for this! xoxox
Posted by YanaBanana on February 14, 2011 at 7:47 AM · Report this
991
After reading poor Dan's response I now know what that weird sound I woke to was. It was him totally missing the point. sigh
Posted by good vagina on February 14, 2011 at 7:33 AM · Report this
rara avis 990
I don't think I can even call Dan's "response" a response. He talks about one person and doesn't address the very good points Lindy brings up here. And no comments? Fucking lame.
Posted by rara avis on February 14, 2011 at 7:32 AM · Report this
989
#982 called it - dan's response - NO COMMENTS ALLOWED. wouldn't call it super classy however. he'll never get it. it's too bad, really, too because all he's doing is hurting himself because i know i no longer give a shit what he says because he has no credibility. he only cares about the gay cause. he's one trick pony and instead of listening to what people have to say he's just going to insist he is right. he's just as narrow minded and tunnel visioned as the homophobes he rails against.
Posted by xina on February 14, 2011 at 7:30 AM · Report this
988
@931: big time. I've had some great conversations over the weekend because of this post.
Posted by Craig Brownson on February 14, 2011 at 7:25 AM · Report this
Canuck 987
@977 A while ago, a youngish person made a comment on another thread about how his parents wouldn't like the fact that he was gay, so he didn't plan to tell them. This prompted me, and others, to chime in with support for this kid, as well as unsolicited advice. He blew a gasket, basically didn't want us busybodies telling him what to do. And that's just the thing: When you post a problem on a public blog, people make the--perhaps--erroneous assumption that you are looking for advice. I get that Lindy's post was pretty much a "Fuck you, leave me alone, don't tell me what's beautiful" post in response to what she saw as Dan's bullying, but there was more to it than that. There was a lot of pain in what she revealed as well. People respond to that, they reach out and say, "Hey! That was me, and this is what I did and I felt better." For all of our talk about "freedom" and "each man for himself," I think we are hard-wired as a species to care about each other, and care about the well-being of the group, and this prompts people to want to help each other. Although people may not like the terms in which it has been said, there are a bunch of people on this thread who are trying to help, even though it is not what the post is about. I get that all Lindy's original post requires is a "You go, girl!" with no further discussion. But what if there is more to the discussion?

Dan is snarky. He doesn't sugar-coat anything. He doesn't respond to fawning or flattery. He tells people what he thinks with brutal honesty, and most of the time, we love him for it. When he's calling out the Fundamentalist Christians, we say "Yeah!" When he's railing against people, and gay men in particular, who don't use condoms, we say, "Yeah!" But when he talks about obesity, and suggests that our current high carb, drive everywhere society may be contributing to the problem, all of a sudden he's an asshole who doesn't get it. Slog reviews cheeseburgers, poutine, and showcases the yummiest looking cupcakes...and Dan Savage is an asshole who dares to tell people that maybe, just maybe, their eating habits have something to do with their waistlines.

More...
Posted by Canuck on February 14, 2011 at 7:25 AM · Report this
Eva Hopkins 986
Dan has responded. But you can't respond back. Yeah, that's a dialogue. Oh well, good to be the boss.
Posted by Eva Hopkins http://www.lunamusestudios.com on February 14, 2011 at 7:25 AM · Report this
985
All the best to you, Lindy. Keep fighting the good fight. Fat people like my wife and me can use all the help we can get to love ourselves while having healthy lifestyles. I love Dan, but I love Lindy more.
Posted by nebulous on February 14, 2011 at 7:21 AM · Report this
littlesparrow7 984
I would never enter into a romantic relationship with a person who overeats, just as I would never enter into a romantic relationship with a person who undereats, smokes, does drugs, drinks a lot, works too much, or in any other way treats their body like shit. I have too much respect for myself to do any of these things to my body, so I wouldn't want someone I love to be doing these things to there's.

Obesity is disgusting, appalling, and gross. Because it's unhealthy and because there are so many people out there forming complex justifications for it. It's delusional.
Posted by littlesparrow7 http://vesper7.tumblr.com/ on February 14, 2011 at 7:15 AM · Report this
MacCrocodile 982
Dan's response: super classy, no comments allowed. Now, nobody make fun of the fatasses. It's perfectly within their rights to make decisions I openly disapprove of and scorn, but nobody make fun of them or poke them with sticks.

In case it's in any way unclear, I'm on Team Lindy on this one.
Posted by MacCrocodile http://maccrocodile.com/ on February 14, 2011 at 7:13 AM · Report this
gttim 981
Keep rocking! Nice legs!
Posted by gttim on February 14, 2011 at 7:01 AM · Report this
980
I hope this he said-she said argument doesn't become a regular staple of Slog, 'cuz it'll get really old, really fast.

It's a stupid debate. Both Dan and Lindy are right, and both are wrong.

We're a nation of obese people, and that is not normal or healthy; but shaming individuals or describing their bodies as revolting is in fact subjective and destructive.
Posted by Centrists Rule the World today on February 14, 2011 at 7:00 AM · Report this
978
Lindy, I think you are so awesome. I was having a horrible day and this made it a little bit better. Thanks.
Posted by new york state of mind on February 14, 2011 at 6:43 AM · Report this
977
For all you guys hoping for the 1000 mark, what if we deleted all the comments with dieting tips and testimonials as being COMPLETELY OFF THE FUCKING TOPIC.
Posted by jenesasquatch on February 14, 2011 at 6:38 AM · Report this
Joe Szilagyi 976
Almost 1,000 comments, 975 as I write this. This is making the rounds online:

http://www.metafilter.com/100491/Hello-I… (409 comments)
http://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/… (373 comments)

It's on a ton of tumblrs as well and I couldn't even tell how many Twitter retweets. You guys... bump this. Wow.
Posted by Joe Szilagyi http://twitter.com/joeszi on February 14, 2011 at 6:29 AM · Report this
975
1. ..."it is an incredibly cruel, subjective opinion that reinforces destructive, paternalistic, oppressive beauty ideals" - whether you like it or not most people in the the developed world find thinness to be more attractive; besides it's the women who reinforce those ideals and not men.
2. There are only limited number of reasons someone gets overweight and you're discounting all the scientific studies about health and obesity ?
3. Not sure what you're getting at - precisely we live in a society that affects each other and everyone's health insurance goes up when we have more unhealthy people (whether they're overweight or not).
4. "I don't give a shit what causes anyone's fatness" - you should be. What if it's the hormones they put in the meat? The excess sugar/starch/fat in kids' diet? The chemicals or advertisements that make people addicted to certain foods? the list goes on and on.. I'm sure you'll be up in arm if certain food are found to cause cancer.
Posted by JaxBriggs on February 14, 2011 at 6:03 AM · Report this
973
@969

What I find interesting is that we're still using universalities and generic formulas to say "she HAS to be eating 4000 calories a day and getting no exercise!" Which entirely misses the point of how you know absolutely nothing about her life and more importantly about how her body works.

If you looked at me I'm sure that's exactly what you would assume. I can tell you that's exactly what a few of my (short lived) doctors have assumed. Only to shock them with my incredibly low blood pressure and cholesterol. Also I take several medications that have weight gain as a side affect. And while yes, my personal situation is more unique than most, I tell you it because you CANNOT know simply by looking at a person or reading a few basic facts about them what sort of lifestyle they live. And if you think medication that makes you gain or retain weight is unusual, look up a few common birth controls, a prescription that is fairly common for a wide variety of reasons.

So to come into a post like this and assume she is unhealthy is the height of arrogance. And frankly the only information I've seen on the long term health affect of being 'fat' is a POSSIBLY increase in risks, or the use of the word 'may' all over the studies. A person MAY find an increased risk of X, Y or Z. Well a person might also find an increased risk of cancer if they go to the beach every day of summer for 30 years. Or a person MAY find an increased risk of liver problems if they drink moderately heavy on a regular basis for 30 years. And yet I don't find people making huge assumptions about those people's lives and saying they are definitely, no questions asked, going to get a debilitating disease sometime in the future.
Posted by amireal on February 14, 2011 at 5:02 AM · Report this
972
Battle for Slog: Beyond Thunderdome
Posted by brokn2pieces on February 14, 2011 at 5:01 AM · Report this
971
I have thoughts about this.

That is all.
Posted by jade on February 14, 2011 at 3:58 AM · Report this
970
I threw out my scale long ago. I don't even know what I weigh, and I don't care. I know I am beautiful RIGHT NOW.

As for other's opinions, I must say; I will always be baffled by the amount of people who think their opinion of how I look is somehow any of my damn business.
Posted by spinflux on February 14, 2011 at 3:03 AM · Report this
969
You guys realize that for Lindy to maintain the weight that she is with ZERO exercise she has to consume around 4,000 calories A DAY? That's around 6 BIG MACS A DAY.

"You have no idea what I eat, how much I exercise, what my blood pressure is, or whether or not I'm going to get diabetes."

Crap.
None.
High.
God, I hope so.
Posted by pessimiste on February 14, 2011 at 2:49 AM · Report this
968
You guys realize that for Lindy to maintain the weight that she is with ZERO exercise she has to consume around 4,000 calories A DAY? That's around 6 BIG MACS A DAY.

"You have no idea what I eat, how much I exercise, what my blood pressure is, or whether or not I'm going to get diabetes."

Crap.
None.
High.
God, I hope so.
Posted by pessimiste on February 14, 2011 at 2:47 AM · Report this
967
@925 I, too, as a person with a registered username on Slog, feel obligated to comment on this post. Even though I have no sympathy for fat people.

Thin all my life due to my dad's healthy cooking when I was a kid and because a public health person from the state came to my 5th grade class in 1981 and did a presentation, with evidence and arguments, on why sugar was bad for you, which I found convincing so thereafter refused to eat sugar. People thought I was a weird kid. But I've never even had a tooth cavity.

Now I eat like a pig (in my perception; others say I eat like a bird) and stay thin. Sometimes I forget to eat and just starve for awhile, uncomfortable but no big deal. Starvation is a very common experience for animals actually, our bodies have evolved lots of physiological mechanisms to cope with it. Probably good exercise for the cells to just starve every once in awhile.

I do not find fat women attractive, ever. I don't go out with women who worry about their weight/what they eat because it's so wearing and stressful, me having to think about what I eat because it might be making her feel bad because she feels like she can't eat it.

The quantities of corn syrup and -oil filled processed food that Americans eat, and the environmental damage caused in its production, bother me. Spending public money on expensive health care instead of infrastructure, education, research etc concerns me.

I live in Japan now, and every time Americans come on the TV, my reaction is "Wow, they are _fat_! And their houses are huge, and stuffed with junk." The Japanese are not fat. They eat rice, fish, soybeans and seaweed. They ride trains everywhere rather than driving, which means they get exercise walking to and from the train stations.

Fat America just seems like one aspect of overindulged, consumerist, addicted, corporate lobbyist-infested, right-wing-politics afflicted America (farm bill subsidies for corn production, etc).

Get a grip, people.
More...
Posted by rationaland on February 14, 2011 at 2:43 AM · Report this
reverend dr dj riz 966
@961.... old, fat, black. fag. woe. i win.
Posted by reverend dr dj riz on February 14, 2011 at 1:57 AM · Report this
965
Health is composed of so many factors that it makes no sense to focus on one (weight) just because it happens to be visible. @956 mentions the too-much-screentime issue, but there's so many others: how many of us are defeated, isolated, addicted to weird stuff or the wrong kind of partners, stressed out by bad jobs, prone to unbearable self righteousness?

And, you can draw statistical conclusions about populations, but that doesn't translate into knowledge of single individuals. Personal fate still holds a bit of mystery. A friend of ours just died at age 88 after chain smoking all her life without a smidgeon of lung trouble until her final 6 weeks. What can you say?

And speaking of self-righteousness, @874, I live off the grid and consume less electricity in a day than you use to make your toast in the morning, and your little screed on sustainability made me want to drive to Seattle in an SUV and go from one Dick's hamburger joint to the next, filling up the back seat with french fry wrappers and plastic soda bottles.
Posted by Iris on February 14, 2011 at 1:53 AM · Report this
964
it just blows my mind how many weight loss tips are in this thread. really??! and @lindy, duh you are amazing. i believe you may have even gotten slightly tired of hearing it by now. but one more!
Posted by annabee on February 14, 2011 at 1:09 AM · Report this
963
Now that Dan has gone all MTV he'll soon big (or small) to be a stranger any longer. Mark my words people...
Posted by fotoeve on February 14, 2011 at 1:08 AM · Report this
962
I registered with SLOG just to comment here.

Thanks for spreading the message that body size is a) not necessarily an indicator of a person's health and b) not anyone else's business. In my opinion, if I find someone's appearance unpleasant, it's not that person's problem, and I certainly would never comment on it *to them*
for heaven's sake!

Let's treat each other with respect, kindness and good will. How 'bout that??

Posted by kindredsgirl on February 14, 2011 at 12:55 AM · Report this
onion 961
you know, the great irony here is that for all the fat-bashing that goes on in the world, gay people still are discriminated against much more than fat people.
fat people can get married, fat people aren't excluded from churches, fat people can adopt children any way they want etc etc. fat people are not hanged in autocratic or religiously fanatic countries for just bein' themselves. and fat people aren't assumed to be child molesters and perverts.
so, lindy still wins.
Posted by onion on February 14, 2011 at 12:54 AM · Report this
959
Thank you for being amazing. :)
Posted by juliannelovesme on February 14, 2011 at 12:27 AM · Report this
958
A further thought re Dan (and message to him if he actually reads these comments).

Even if he doesn't get Lindy's post or think much of the hundreds of comments saying "right on" in response, I hope he is appalled and chagrined at both the vitriol and profound medical and epidemiological ignorance of the overwhelming majority of folks posting that she's an ugly stupid fatty.

I hope it gives him pause next time he wants to post on this issue. This is the group you're throwing bones to Dan. You really want to be on their side?!
Posted by gnossos on February 14, 2011 at 12:14 AM · Report this
veo_ 957
@954 I'm certain we'll hear something from Dan. What remains to be seen is if all the back and forth commentary here has swayed him to actually do a bit of reflection and discover that he is indeed a bit callous and yes, BULLYING to the overweight of the world. He's a smart guy, and even though I've never met him, I assume an intelligent and sensitive one too, so I have hope. Then again, I wouldn't be surprised really if he comes out swinging.

Whatever; time will tell. It gets better, right?
Posted by veo_ on February 14, 2011 at 12:12 AM · Report this
Oxycontin Merry-go-round 956
The moral superiority I'm detecting in the comments of people like littlesparrow is grating.

It's not like most of us aren't doing something that's bad for our health. People like me, who sit all day in front of a computer screen, are doing something really bad; we're not getting proper exercise. Scientific studies have even shown that people who sit at a desk all day are significantly shortening their lives. Yet unhealthy desk jockeys are given a pass, while fat people are singled out for shame, concern, or bullying, even if they happen to be healthier than a skinnier person. Fuck that. And fuck the arrogant people who do it.
Posted by Oxycontin Merry-go-round on February 14, 2011 at 12:05 AM · Report this
955
Lindy, you're awesome. Dan, you're lucky to have someone as awesome as Lindy around. And as a fat person who regularly reads your column - yeah, Lindy's right. Totally right. And awesome. So, in a nutshell: fuck you, Dan. I don't like it when you project your own twisted body-image hangups onto other people, and I never have.
Posted by bullwinkle http://www.youtube.com/user/jmalcolmcurrie on February 14, 2011 at 12:03 AM · Report this
954
I can't remember any post on Slog that has generated this much interest. I was thinking one of the Chris Crocker posts (when we got "hit with the Myspace truck" as Eli put it), but for all the sound and fury that didn't even make to 200 comments.

There may have been some political ones before/after the '08 elections that generated tons of heat, but I'm sure this is the most commented on of all (Slog) time. And nice to see that the vast majority of it isn't even from the standard Slog gang.

Even though he's gone into total radio silence since early Friday, there's no way Dan cannot do a response of his own, otherwise every comment thread for his posts is gonna have people asking where his response to Lindy is.
Posted by gnossos on February 13, 2011 at 11:53 PM · Report this
TheOldProfessor