Slog
News & ArtsThursday, February 10, 2011
Homo / Housekeeping Re: Ban Fat Marriage
Posted by Lindy West on Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 12:19 PM
Hey, Dan—so now that you're equating the stigmatization of fat people with the stigmatization of gay people, does that mean you're going to stop stigmatizing fat people on this blog?
1
I don't get it....aren't 90% of obesity cases caused by bad choices? Isn't that fundamentally different than being gay?
4
didn't dan already write a whole thing about how he's never said anything slandering about fat people?
either way i haven't seen him say such things and i'd like to see so... linky~
either way i haven't seen him say such things and i'd like to see so... linky~
5
@1: That depends...if being gay were a choice would you think it was morally wrong? Doesn't make much sense to me that it would be.
6
I can't agree with you more, Lindy, and I'm rooting for you to call out Dan each and every time he stigmatizes fat people.
@1, there can be myriad reasons why a person is fat. Since few people can know exactly why that is for any individual person, what gives someone the power to unilaterally judge someone else? How about NOT judging them on an arbitrary and inconsequential metric?
Dan's issue is a classic one: in defense of being ostracized and sidelined himself, he ostracizes others. I'd like to see him be a better person than that.
@1, there can be myriad reasons why a person is fat. Since few people can know exactly why that is for any individual person, what gives someone the power to unilaterally judge someone else? How about NOT judging them on an arbitrary and inconsequential metric?
Dan's issue is a classic one: in defense of being ostracized and sidelined himself, he ostracizes others. I'd like to see him be a better person than that.
9
Isn't the whole point of this entry that the argument that's being made against gay marriage is absurd?
10
He doesn't equate the stigmatization of fat people vs. gay people. He imagines a scenario where fat people are as equally stigmatized as gay people and that reveals how far from reality scenario is.
Though not his point, he shows that fat people are stigmatized to a significantly less amount than gay people, at least in terms of marriage equality.
Though not his point, he shows that fat people are stigmatized to a significantly less amount than gay people, at least in terms of marriage equality.
11
doubtful! all dan has done (for me anyway) with all of his bashing of every other group that isn't gay has made me really sick and tired of hearing about gay marriage and gay rights to the point that i just don't care anymore. his message is meaningless because he only cares about one group and thinks it's perfectly fine to turn around and marginalize any other group he wants because he happens to be a part of a marginalized group within our society. boo fucking hoo. get over yourself. i'm female, so my marginalization trumps yours. (that makes as much sense as dan's gayness trumping the marginalization of fat people or poor people or ugly people or whatever other group he is using to make his point). i would love to never hear another word from dan savage. unfortunately we all can't get what we want.
13
Of course he won't stop stigmatizing fat people. Fat people and gay people are natural enemies, like ninjas and pirates. Or the Narn and Centauri. There can never be anything but vicious animosity between them.
14
@6 It's not inconsequential. People who are fat by choice are greedy and using up far more of the world's, and society's, resources than necessary. I agree that we shouldn't be too judgmental, but we shouldn't let lazy fat people off the hook just because they might, MAYBE have a real medical condition.
15
Just as the Christofascists like to claim they don't hate the sinner, only the sin, I'm sure Dan would say he doesn't mean to stigmatize the fattie, just the fat.
(Anyone who wants to hijack this thread into the gutter to discuss the sexy fat girl storyline on Glee, that's fine by me.)
(Anyone who wants to hijack this thread into the gutter to discuss the sexy fat girl storyline on Glee, that's fine by me.)
16
@11: I think you may be reading a different Dan Savage than the rest of us. "Bashing of every other group that isn't gay"? Um, no.
(And if you don't want to "hear another word from" him - STOP READING HIS BLOG.)
(And if you don't want to "hear another word from" him - STOP READING HIS BLOG.)
19
He only would have to do so if the arguments are valid, which they are not. If fat people were legally the same as gay people (both allowed to marry or both not allowed to marry), then logically, yes he would have to.
21
Sigh- I'm going to have to call you out on this Lindy. Dan's post was not equating one to the other. It was showing how wrong it is to deny basic human rights to any group based on a completely arbitrary characteristic.
And for the record- From everything I've read from Dan on the subject of fat people I get the impression that he doesn't hate them- he merely dislikes the excuses fat people make in this country of overweight people to justify their unhealthy lifestyle. He doesnt agree with the notion that being severely overweight is just as healthy and I have to agree with his point of view.
But none of that means anything in the scope of that post- so yeah. False equivalents are false.
And for the record- From everything I've read from Dan on the subject of fat people I get the impression that he doesn't hate them- he merely dislikes the excuses fat people make in this country of overweight people to justify their unhealthy lifestyle. He doesnt agree with the notion that being severely overweight is just as healthy and I have to agree with his point of view.
But none of that means anything in the scope of that post- so yeah. False equivalents are false.
22
@15 What? You have something against gutters, gus? That's mighty gutterist of you. (How about Kurt and the blond boy with the bee stung lips???)
24
I don't see anywhere in Dan's post where he equates the stigmatization of fat people with the stigmatization of gay people.
Dan's argument was like this:
1. If it were reasonable to deny marriage rights to certain groups because of their having lower life expectancies, then it would be reasonable to deny marriage rights to fat people.
2. But that is ridiculous.
Therefore, it is NOT reasonable to deny marriage rights to people on account of their having lower life expectancies.
Dan could have easily used "people with terminal illnesses" or "heavy smokers", or "people with a history of heart disease" instead of "fat people".
I don't see this as an "oh snap" moment.
Dan's argument was like this:
1. If it were reasonable to deny marriage rights to certain groups because of their having lower life expectancies, then it would be reasonable to deny marriage rights to fat people.
2. But that is ridiculous.
Therefore, it is NOT reasonable to deny marriage rights to people on account of their having lower life expectancies.
Dan could have easily used "people with terminal illnesses" or "heavy smokers", or "people with a history of heart disease" instead of "fat people".
I don't see this as an "oh snap" moment.
25
@1: I would still be for gay rights even if being gay was a choice.
@21: I did not misunderstand the meaning of Dan's post.
@21: I did not misunderstand the meaning of Dan's post.
26
@20,
I don't know if I'd go so far as to call Londo and G'Kar "friends" exactly. They stopped hating each other and sort of began to trust and even admire and respect each other, but they were never really all that chummy.
I don't know if I'd go so far as to call Londo and G'Kar "friends" exactly. They stopped hating each other and sort of began to trust and even admire and respect each other, but they were never really all that chummy.
33
Yeah, the numbers went wacky there for a sec didn't they.
@26, I think by the time Londo rescued G'Kar from prison, they considered each other friends. Not like BFFs or anything, but they had some fun times in the palace.
@26, I think by the time Londo rescued G'Kar from prison, they considered each other friends. Not like BFFs or anything, but they had some fun times in the palace.
34
Canuck, thank you for your guttural encouragement.
I think your idea would solve two Glee problems in one swoop:
1. Kurt needs to quit pining and get laid already, and then get bored with who he's getting laid with and move on, like a normal gay.
2. Chase (i.e. the blond boy with the pouty lips) is perfect for Kurt to do that with, because he has nothing to do on the show right now so he might as well go gay, plus being so cute but dull, anyone could see why Kurt would do a hump-and-dump with him.
I think your idea would solve two Glee problems in one swoop:
1. Kurt needs to quit pining and get laid already, and then get bored with who he's getting laid with and move on, like a normal gay.
2. Chase (i.e. the blond boy with the pouty lips) is perfect for Kurt to do that with, because he has nothing to do on the show right now so he might as well go gay, plus being so cute but dull, anyone could see why Kurt would do a hump-and-dump with him.
36
@24 perception is what matters, not facts.
@3 Ness is correct, Lindy ftw. Sashay down that runway, Lindy, you're fabulous!
@3 Ness is correct, Lindy ftw. Sashay down that runway, Lindy, you're fabulous!
37
Your talents are wasted doing whatever it is you do, gus, as I would much prefer you to be a writer for Glee. And yes! although I will feel badly for Chase (see? I didn't even know he had a name...) that storyline would be perfect. Why are the cute boys always bland? Poor Tad...Todd...I mean Chase.
38
Go Lindy!
@24 Dan's got quite the history of hating on the overweight, so it's not surprising conclusions were jumped to.
@24 Dan's got quite the history of hating on the overweight, so it's not surprising conclusions were jumped to.
39
@6 Indeed, there are many reasons why a person can be fat, like calories in > calories out and...
Oh wait, that's it.
Oh wait, that's it.
41
Would it be inappropriate of me to compliment Lindy on her boobs? Cause that's what I feel like doing.
44
@42 Any thyroid problems or metabolism issues are included in the calories-out part of the equation. No amount of thyroid problems can make a person gain weight as long as they aren't ingesting more calories than they use, however that usage happens to be impaired by medical issues. Thyroid problems don't lead to the spontaneous generation of matter.
45
I'll respond to Lindy's post with a post 'o my own.
In the meantime, and for reference, please link to all the many, many posts -- or columns or YouTube videos -- where I be all "hating on fat people." I do it constantly, I'm told, so there should be lots of examples, tons of recent ones and lots more from olden times.
In the meantime, and for reference, please link to all the many, many posts -- or columns or YouTube videos -- where I be all "hating on fat people." I do it constantly, I'm told, so there should be lots of examples, tons of recent ones and lots more from olden times.
46
@45 You tried this already...I think there was a reference from '98 that people should eat more veggies and eggs. So rad, so bad!
47
Calories in / calories out is completely meaningless when everyone burns calories at a different rate, and when that rate can change depending on circumstance. People with thyroid conditions are an extreme example, but their weight can fluctuate dramatically even though their diet and activity level remain unchanged. No amount of excercise or reduction of caloric intake can compensate for the change in their metabolism. It's not a question of 'spontaneous generation of matter,' but the rate at which calories are burned, and everyone burns calories differently.
48
@45 Personally, I don't think you be all "hating on fat people."
Still, I think that last post was kind of setting fat people for a predictable smack down, in a "my buddy here at the bar" kind of way. I also think that the "contagious" thing is dangerous and that you know should know better than that.
Also, congrats to Lindy on swiping your shitstorm/comment count.
Still, I think that last post was kind of setting fat people for a predictable smack down, in a "my buddy here at the bar" kind of way. I also think that the "contagious" thing is dangerous and that you know should know better than that.
Also, congrats to Lindy on swiping your shitstorm/comment count.
49
47: So the dramatic increase in obesity rates in the US is the result of massively increased prevalence of thyroid problems? You mean to tell us that 100,000,000 Americans now have thyroid problems? And somehow the rest of non-Americanized world has been unaffected?
50
@45 noooooo! Don't take the bait! Think of the bait as that last piece of bacon! Let us have our fun!
52
@42, I'm curious why you're staunchly defending your stance to offend and hurt people you don't know.
Sure, obesity comes down to calories consumed and expended, but there are also things like ingrained behavior, societal pressures, biological predisposition for weight gain (studies are showing that kids who eat junk food early in life--fed to them by their parents--are more likely to be obese later in life even when they change their diet habits), so on and so forth. People struggle with their issues. It's not black and white. Why are you unable to cut someone some slack and empathize with them? How about just not saying anything about fat people?
Sure, obesity comes down to calories consumed and expended, but there are also things like ingrained behavior, societal pressures, biological predisposition for weight gain (studies are showing that kids who eat junk food early in life--fed to them by their parents--are more likely to be obese later in life even when they change their diet habits), so on and so forth. People struggle with their issues. It's not black and white. Why are you unable to cut someone some slack and empathize with them? How about just not saying anything about fat people?
54
@26 and 33,
*putting my pedantic nerd hat on*
By the end of the series, G'Kar and Londo considered each other best friends, to the point that they called each other "dear/old friend".
*putting my pedantic nerd hat on*
By the end of the series, G'Kar and Londo considered each other best friends, to the point that they called each other "dear/old friend".
55
@49 Possibly. "Obesity On the Rise in Animals" by Stephanie Pappas livescience.com/ 10277-obesity-rise-animals.html
"The increase in body weight in controlled lab animals is unexpected."
"It just highlights how little we understand about what's happening in terms of why we see this rise in body weight in our population," Jennifer Kuk, an obesity researcher at York University in Toronto who was not involved in the research, told LiveScience. "Perhaps this problem isn't as simple as just energy intake and energy expenditure, which has been the prevailing message over the last 10 years."
The CDC states, "four modifiable health risk behaviors—lack of physical activity, poor nutrition, tobacco use, and excessive alcohol consumption—are responsible for much of the illness, suffering, and early death related to chronic diseases." It would not surprise me that posting on SLOG correlates as strongly to these as a set, as does obesity, and yet I don't see a lot of SLOG poster hate here.
"The increase in body weight in controlled lab animals is unexpected."
"It just highlights how little we understand about what's happening in terms of why we see this rise in body weight in our population," Jennifer Kuk, an obesity researcher at York University in Toronto who was not involved in the research, told LiveScience. "Perhaps this problem isn't as simple as just energy intake and energy expenditure, which has been the prevailing message over the last 10 years."
The CDC states, "four modifiable health risk behaviors—lack of physical activity, poor nutrition, tobacco use, and excessive alcohol consumption—are responsible for much of the illness, suffering, and early death related to chronic diseases." It would not surprise me that posting on SLOG correlates as strongly to these as a set, as does obesity, and yet I don't see a lot of SLOG poster hate here.
57
@43: Damn, I supposed to be working right now, not jerking. ;-)
Not sure whose those lovelies belong to - my comment was based on the picture in Lindy's avatar. I know, it's only like 4 pixels but it comes to cleavage I've got the eyes of eagle.
Not sure whose those lovelies belong to - my comment was based on the picture in Lindy's avatar. I know, it's only like 4 pixels but it comes to cleavage I've got the eyes of eagle.
59
@52 I'll empathize with people all night and day, and I understand there are important contributing factors, I just felt like pointing out that all that is subservient to the fact that you don't gain weight unless you eat the food. I'm not blaming fat people here, just stating that it's important to remember the physics at some point.
60
Am I the only one who read this at "Bat fan marriage", and pictured something like this: http://www.stylinonline.com/baby-tee-bat… ?
61
@enigma and keshmeshi,
Eh, maybe you guys are right. It's been a couple years since I re-watched B5, I should throw it in for another spin again (although I still have a hard time making it through the awful first half of the first season).
Eh, maybe you guys are right. It's been a couple years since I re-watched B5, I should throw it in for another spin again (although I still have a hard time making it through the awful first half of the first season).
62
Why can't people take responsibility for themselves instead of making excuses? There is clearly a problem with obesity in this country, we are one of the most obese nations in the world! I understand that there are various factors that contribute to this (genetics, environment, etc), but you have to admit that;s it's getting worse and not ALL people have thyroid problems or whatever other factors play in to it! I do empathize and I know it's hard to lose weight, but own up to it!
http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/trends.h…
http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/trends.h…
65
Come on fat people, get real. Look at yourself! Go for a walk every morning eat smaller meals, and make the world a better place.
We all have a million excuses for our flaws, but in the end, its our own responsibility to take care of our bodies, and a shared responsibility to take care of our world. Its completely reasonably to be a little upset about people taking more than their fair share.
No offense intended to obese people, but really....You don't get a free pass. You are not exempt from criticism anymore than an anorexic starving herself, or a corporate CEO coveting as much money as he can. These are real cultural problems, that stem from bad personal choices.
Seriously....America....Stop. Being. Fat.
We all have a million excuses for our flaws, but in the end, its our own responsibility to take care of our bodies, and a shared responsibility to take care of our world. Its completely reasonably to be a little upset about people taking more than their fair share.
No offense intended to obese people, but really....You don't get a free pass. You are not exempt from criticism anymore than an anorexic starving herself, or a corporate CEO coveting as much money as he can. These are real cultural problems, that stem from bad personal choices.
Seriously....America....Stop. Being. Fat.
66
@63 Dan, I think you're great, I read your stuff all the time, but I have to side with Lindy on this one. No, I'm not going to sift through your massive catalogue of work to find you links, but I will ask, when people your work with, and presumably respect, tell you that you are being offensive, or that you are hurtful and perhaps even predisposed to mocking them and others like them, why do you immediately become defensive? A woman you have contact with daily has just told you, in a silly way, that she thinks you are biased against fat folks. Rather than jump up and shout a big "fuck you, you're wrong and so are all the touchy fat people who write to me!" (obviously that's not a direct quote) why not take a minute to ask her why she thinks that, or even just reflect?
If Lindy, or anyone you work with, said something about gay men that you thought was shitty, whether or not they MEANT for it to be, and you confronted them, do you think it would be productive for them to demand proof from you? Do you think it would be fair for them to just ignore your feelings and opinions?
For the record, I don't think you hate fat people, I don't think you are disgusted by us at all, I think that sometimes when you are being lighthearted, or making a point using fatties as an example, you forget that there are people on the other side that might not like being poked and prodded and used to illustrate your point. I don't mind you saying that we're unhealthy or whatever, I just think that there is a point where you might want to step back and say "shit, did I just ruin someone's day?"
If Lindy, or anyone you work with, said something about gay men that you thought was shitty, whether or not they MEANT for it to be, and you confronted them, do you think it would be productive for them to demand proof from you? Do you think it would be fair for them to just ignore your feelings and opinions?
For the record, I don't think you hate fat people, I don't think you are disgusted by us at all, I think that sometimes when you are being lighthearted, or making a point using fatties as an example, you forget that there are people on the other side that might not like being poked and prodded and used to illustrate your point. I don't mind you saying that we're unhealthy or whatever, I just think that there is a point where you might want to step back and say "shit, did I just ruin someone's day?"
67
@64 I guess I'm curious why posting links would make a difference. You obviously don't think the things you write about fat people are problematic. Is there any link in the world that would change your mind?
Let's say I posted 40 links of all the things you've written about fat people over the years. What would your response be? I'm willing to bet money it's not "You're right. The things I write about fat people are insensitive, and sometimes needlessly cruel. I shall change." That will never happen, because you're Dan Savage and you're literally NEVER WRONG.
Also, note that Lindy used the word "stigmatize" as opposed to "be all hating." These are two totally different ideas--you couch your criticism of overweight people as a broader issue with the "obesity epidemic," but why do you care? In what way does the obesity epidemic affect you personally (other than aesthetically)? You're fit. Your family is fit. We understand there's an obesity epidemic. We understand your point of view that fat people are fat because they eat too much and don't exercise enough (works for Dan Savage=works for everyone). Your posts on the obese and the obesity epidemic do nothing but stigmatize.
So, point taken, Dan. We get it. Move on.
Let's say I posted 40 links of all the things you've written about fat people over the years. What would your response be? I'm willing to bet money it's not "You're right. The things I write about fat people are insensitive, and sometimes needlessly cruel. I shall change." That will never happen, because you're Dan Savage and you're literally NEVER WRONG.
Also, note that Lindy used the word "stigmatize" as opposed to "be all hating." These are two totally different ideas--you couch your criticism of overweight people as a broader issue with the "obesity epidemic," but why do you care? In what way does the obesity epidemic affect you personally (other than aesthetically)? You're fit. Your family is fit. We understand there's an obesity epidemic. We understand your point of view that fat people are fat because they eat too much and don't exercise enough (works for Dan Savage=works for everyone). Your posts on the obese and the obesity epidemic do nothing but stigmatize.
So, point taken, Dan. We get it. Move on.
69
Dan, what you do is you constantly bring it up. If you keep tossing babies into pens full of pitbulls and then claim that you have no problem with babies, it's the pitbulls that hate babies!. . . . well. . . you're kinda full of shit.
I consider this a "price of admission" issue with you, but I do appreciate Lindy's giant, pendulous sack. <3
I consider this a "price of admission" issue with you, but I do appreciate Lindy's giant, pendulous sack. <3
72
@58: That's funny.
@63: Dan, to my knowledge, no one at Fox News has ever referred to President Obama using the N-word, but you just know they're thinking it.
Some of your posts on the subject of weight have a similar feel to them. But, hey, if you're personal opinions of fat people have been misunderstood, it should be pretty easy to clear things up, right?
@63: Dan, to my knowledge, no one at Fox News has ever referred to President Obama using the N-word, but you just know they're thinking it.
Some of your posts on the subject of weight have a similar feel to them. But, hey, if you're personal opinions of fat people have been misunderstood, it should be pretty easy to clear things up, right?
73
Fat people defy the laws of thermodynamics. They eat moderate meals and get adequate exercise yer they keep generating matter from nothing! Maybe we should study their magic biochemistry and the energy crisis will be solved. Scientists, on the ready!!!
74
If you are overweight and are unsure of what to do, I have the perfect diet for you:
PUT THE GODDAMN FORK DOWN.
That is all.
PUT THE GODDAMN FORK DOWN.
That is all.
75
@73/74/etc.
Hey, I'll make you a deal. YOU lose 30% of your body weight and keep it off for 2 years, and then you're allowed to come back and post idiotic shit on the slog.
Don't need to lose 30% of your body weight? Doesn't matter. The metabolic freak-out that your body would undergo, and the miserable, constant obsession that it would take for you to keep it off, is the same exact thing that my body would go through. Our bodies do not CARE about an ideal BMI, they care about not starving. They don't CARE where we start, only that we don't lose weight, because in the world we evolved in, losing weight means that you're dying.
YOU try going through your life as a productive member of society while ignoring your hypothalamus telling you that you're dying 24/7. And then come back and tell us how easy it is.
I can't wait! :D
Hey, I'll make you a deal. YOU lose 30% of your body weight and keep it off for 2 years, and then you're allowed to come back and post idiotic shit on the slog.
Don't need to lose 30% of your body weight? Doesn't matter. The metabolic freak-out that your body would undergo, and the miserable, constant obsession that it would take for you to keep it off, is the same exact thing that my body would go through. Our bodies do not CARE about an ideal BMI, they care about not starving. They don't CARE where we start, only that we don't lose weight, because in the world we evolved in, losing weight means that you're dying.
YOU try going through your life as a productive member of society while ignoring your hypothalamus telling you that you're dying 24/7. And then come back and tell us how easy it is.
I can't wait! :D
76
I think #66 is very smart and I would like to buy him/ her a very nice present.
Having one foot solidly (quite solidly) in both the fat and gay camps I understand Dan's analogy and it's use in pointingout absurd homophobic logic. But I'm a ittle bit in love w/ Lindy right now...
Having one foot solidly (quite solidly) in both the fat and gay camps I understand Dan's analogy and it's use in pointingout absurd homophobic logic. But I'm a ittle bit in love w/ Lindy right now...
77
@61,
I feel that way about most of the fifth season, save the last couple of episodes. It's necessary to watch to find out what happened to the characters, but they had fucking Penn and Teller on one of those episodes. *vomit*
I feel that way about most of the fifth season, save the last couple of episodes. It's necessary to watch to find out what happened to the characters, but they had fucking Penn and Teller on one of those episodes. *vomit*
78
Hey 75, if you're constantly starving, than you're doing it wrong.
It's funny. I gained a few over the holidays (who doesn't?) and somehow managed to lose it all and then some without succumbing to THE DEATH. Let's see. I started off at 135 right after Xmas, I'm at 120 now so, 15/135=0.11 ... Wow! 11% of my body weight and I didn't die. What's my secret?
Not eating whatever the fuck I want whenever the fuck I want. Counting calories to make sure that I'm not overeating. 20 minutes of yoga every morning, 20 minutes of brisk walking during my commmute. Not taking the elevator. Seems pretty reasonable and sustainable to me.
If I lost 30% of my body weight, I'd probably stop menstruating. At 5'6" and 95lbs I'd be sick. My body would have a real reason to be in starvation mode. That's why at my goal weight where I am now, I will eat enough calories to maintain my weight. If I wanted/needed to lose more, I'd continue with fewer calories daily for longer. If you cut too many calories a day, then you're hungry and fatigued, so just cut a few. It might be slow work, but you have to be patient.
At least have the honesty to admit (at least to yourself) that you just don't have the willpower to make the lifestyle changes needed to lose weight. Stop blaming your weight problems on everything but your own behavior.
It's funny. I gained a few over the holidays (who doesn't?) and somehow managed to lose it all and then some without succumbing to THE DEATH. Let's see. I started off at 135 right after Xmas, I'm at 120 now so, 15/135=0.11 ... Wow! 11% of my body weight and I didn't die. What's my secret?
Not eating whatever the fuck I want whenever the fuck I want. Counting calories to make sure that I'm not overeating. 20 minutes of yoga every morning, 20 minutes of brisk walking during my commmute. Not taking the elevator. Seems pretty reasonable and sustainable to me.
If I lost 30% of my body weight, I'd probably stop menstruating. At 5'6" and 95lbs I'd be sick. My body would have a real reason to be in starvation mode. That's why at my goal weight where I am now, I will eat enough calories to maintain my weight. If I wanted/needed to lose more, I'd continue with fewer calories daily for longer. If you cut too many calories a day, then you're hungry and fatigued, so just cut a few. It might be slow work, but you have to be patient.
At least have the honesty to admit (at least to yourself) that you just don't have the willpower to make the lifestyle changes needed to lose weight. Stop blaming your weight problems on everything but your own behavior.
79
So, because I complained about Dan's post in the original thread, I was told my sarcasm meter is broken & I have no life. *sigh* I hate to make that 2nd point seem true by sifting through the SL archives, but I have a few minutes before cuddle time w/ my honey & if it helps settle the point -
Obesity is something Dan has discussed many times in a thoughtful way, such as this:
http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/01/obes…
That's a simple truth: better foods - veggies vs. fast food - & working out = weight loss. 100% agree! & obesity is a big problem in the U.S. Where our fast-food eateries go overseas, obesity follows in their wake.
A lot of Dan's mentioning of this serious social problem have been laced w/ snark but in a way that calls attention to the problem w/ out meanness, such as the one about don't feed donuts to your obese children. There's a buncha times where Dan's sense of aesthetics seems to outweigh the concern -
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Savag…
I believe strongly in dressing to type. I'm a chubby chick (one with an actual medical issue, PCOS, but yes, healthier since employing the magic formula of less food, better food & exercise). You would not catch me not just dead, but zombified, in a pair of muffin top makin' jeans.
This addresses both health issues & aesthetics (fat rolls are unsightly, Dan says):
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Savag…
Now, do I think men or women should be wearing fashion crimes against nature? Of course not. But there's plenty of people who find the sight of two men holding hands, kissing, etc, gross or unsightly to look at. You'd tell 'em to look somewhere else, wouldn't you?
This is an interesting piece about how folks in the fat-acceptance movement don't wanna acknowledge eating disorders:
http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/10/big_…
This one points out how f'd up it is that fat folks sometimes have problems getting good quality care from their doctor (hmm, do folks remember posts like this when they yell @ Dan for the seeming fatphobia?):
http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/01/toda…
The comment thread on this post (to flabby arms? Sooo 'funny'!): http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/01/to_a…
- contains what I think is the root of most folks's problem w/ the bitchy tone Dan employs when discussing fat people. Dan asks his readers, frequently, to support gay rights & causes (most folks reading Slog already do, I'd bet). But -
"Why should I care about gay bashing/hating if gay people like Dan Savage don't care about bashing/hating on fat people like me? I'm speaking hypothetically of course.
Posted by Kristin Bell | January 27, 2008 12:25 PM"
Is the below thoughtful or pointmaking?
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
Thankfully I couldn't find that vacation photo of the couple standing in front of Dawn, just the back of them/their asses, in some Midwestern state. (Missouri?) That was way more ha-ha, fatties, than helpful for sure.
I think Dan himself, with his avowed love of cheap cake & brownies, fears becoming fat. I also think it not very likely, as he moves at a pretty fast pace. Dan, I think your heart's in the right place, but the tone doesn't work, for some. Maybe you should think that over.
If you run "savage" + either obese, fat, fat ass or obesity on the Stranger search engine, you come up w/ an awful lot of hits, showing that although I found the mentions to be more balanced than I expected, there was a lot of 'em, & some were very mean-spirited.
..and cuddle time has just been upgraded to booty time, so, GTG. Priorities. There's your (calorie free) food for thought for the evenin'.
More...
Obesity is something Dan has discussed many times in a thoughtful way, such as this:
http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/01/obes…
That's a simple truth: better foods - veggies vs. fast food - & working out = weight loss. 100% agree! & obesity is a big problem in the U.S. Where our fast-food eateries go overseas, obesity follows in their wake.
A lot of Dan's mentioning of this serious social problem have been laced w/ snark but in a way that calls attention to the problem w/ out meanness, such as the one about don't feed donuts to your obese children. There's a buncha times where Dan's sense of aesthetics seems to outweigh the concern -
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Savag…
I believe strongly in dressing to type. I'm a chubby chick (one with an actual medical issue, PCOS, but yes, healthier since employing the magic formula of less food, better food & exercise). You would not catch me not just dead, but zombified, in a pair of muffin top makin' jeans.
This addresses both health issues & aesthetics (fat rolls are unsightly, Dan says):
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Savag…
Now, do I think men or women should be wearing fashion crimes against nature? Of course not. But there's plenty of people who find the sight of two men holding hands, kissing, etc, gross or unsightly to look at. You'd tell 'em to look somewhere else, wouldn't you?
This is an interesting piece about how folks in the fat-acceptance movement don't wanna acknowledge eating disorders:
http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/10/big_…
This one points out how f'd up it is that fat folks sometimes have problems getting good quality care from their doctor (hmm, do folks remember posts like this when they yell @ Dan for the seeming fatphobia?):
http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/01/toda…
The comment thread on this post (to flabby arms? Sooo 'funny'!): http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/01/to_a…
- contains what I think is the root of most folks's problem w/ the bitchy tone Dan employs when discussing fat people. Dan asks his readers, frequently, to support gay rights & causes (most folks reading Slog already do, I'd bet). But -
"Why should I care about gay bashing/hating if gay people like Dan Savage don't care about bashing/hating on fat people like me? I'm speaking hypothetically of course.
Posted by Kristin Bell | January 27, 2008 12:25 PM"
Is the below thoughtful or pointmaking?
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
Thankfully I couldn't find that vacation photo of the couple standing in front of Dawn, just the back of them/their asses, in some Midwestern state. (Missouri?) That was way more ha-ha, fatties, than helpful for sure.
I think Dan himself, with his avowed love of cheap cake & brownies, fears becoming fat. I also think it not very likely, as he moves at a pretty fast pace. Dan, I think your heart's in the right place, but the tone doesn't work, for some. Maybe you should think that over.
If you run "savage" + either obese, fat, fat ass or obesity on the Stranger search engine, you come up w/ an awful lot of hits, showing that although I found the mentions to be more balanced than I expected, there was a lot of 'em, & some were very mean-spirited.
..and cuddle time has just been upgraded to booty time, so, GTG. Priorities. There's your (calorie free) food for thought for the evenin'.
80
#75, Sadly, your argument is contradictory. As you say, the body may care about changes in weight but it's not like the 30% weight loss happens instantaneously!
Let's say your weight loss is a gradual process, since it should be, and that (as you say) your body doesn't care about the absolute BMI value. Then, by your own reasoning all you need to do is adjust your set point by eating fewer or maybe even the same calories and to exercise, probably a lot at first. Like you said, your body will try to adjust to getting less energy.
And, most people don't consider the feeling you get from not eating enough "dying", it's called being hungry! That perspective, I would say is the most revealing part of your comment.
Let's say your weight loss is a gradual process, since it should be, and that (as you say) your body doesn't care about the absolute BMI value. Then, by your own reasoning all you need to do is adjust your set point by eating fewer or maybe even the same calories and to exercise, probably a lot at first. Like you said, your body will try to adjust to getting less energy.
And, most people don't consider the feeling you get from not eating enough "dying", it's called being hungry! That perspective, I would say is the most revealing part of your comment.
81
(oops, that Midwest photo of the large couple was taken while folks were standing in front of Dan, not Dawn.)
82
yeah, no. 66 has it. you are a very astute mediator, sir or madam.
while what dan said IN THIS INSTANCE is not technically inflammatory toward fat people, he sure does talk about fat people a lot, which might make one think that he has some sort of an issue with them. his point in the linked post is encased in, ahem . . . perhaps unnecesary statistics about fat people in the state of iowa. so, he may not come out and say overtly negative things, but the triggers are there. i can definitely see why lindy is offended.
that said, dan has a point. he'd just have a much stronger point if he didn't fall back on his fat-people obsession to illustrate it. and screaming nuh unh doesn't help much either.
while what dan said IN THIS INSTANCE is not technically inflammatory toward fat people, he sure does talk about fat people a lot, which might make one think that he has some sort of an issue with them. his point in the linked post is encased in, ahem . . . perhaps unnecesary statistics about fat people in the state of iowa. so, he may not come out and say overtly negative things, but the triggers are there. i can definitely see why lindy is offended.
that said, dan has a point. he'd just have a much stronger point if he didn't fall back on his fat-people obsession to illustrate it. and screaming nuh unh doesn't help much either.
84
@ 58 - Lindy, considering that half the country denies global warming, and a whopping 24% believe President Obama is a Muslim, it's pretty clear that the fact that a lot of people think something hardly makes it true.
Dan's posts do sometimes make some pretty insensitive jokes, but it really doesn't rise to the level of fat-bashing. More often than not, he actually seems pretty sensitive about it - e.g., the problem isn't with the bigger college girl who can't find a boyfriend, it's with the insecure piece of shit college boys that deny their attraction to bigger girls. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTKb0k7W6…)
@ 75 - Saying "Why don't YOU lose weight?" to someone who's at a healthy weight is pretty unproductive. No one is saying that weight loss is easy, and different people have different set points, but there's a difference between acknowledging those truths (and rejecting the stick-thin standard of beauty as the only standard of beauty) and pretending that proper diet and physical activity have nothing to do with weight. (Also, I'm pretty sure if I dropped to 75 pounds I would literally die.)
@ 79/81 - Wow, that was thorough. Well done, hon. Hope booty time went well for you.
Alright, off to racking up those billables. (Who needs diet and exercise when you have good old fashioned law firm stress to keep you thin?)
Dan's posts do sometimes make some pretty insensitive jokes, but it really doesn't rise to the level of fat-bashing. More often than not, he actually seems pretty sensitive about it - e.g., the problem isn't with the bigger college girl who can't find a boyfriend, it's with the insecure piece of shit college boys that deny their attraction to bigger girls. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTKb0k7W6…)
@ 75 - Saying "Why don't YOU lose weight?" to someone who's at a healthy weight is pretty unproductive. No one is saying that weight loss is easy, and different people have different set points, but there's a difference between acknowledging those truths (and rejecting the stick-thin standard of beauty as the only standard of beauty) and pretending that proper diet and physical activity have nothing to do with weight. (Also, I'm pretty sure if I dropped to 75 pounds I would literally die.)
@ 79/81 - Wow, that was thorough. Well done, hon. Hope booty time went well for you.
Alright, off to racking up those billables. (Who needs diet and exercise when you have good old fashioned law firm stress to keep you thin?)
85
73, Hear, hear, very well put.
75, Healthy weight people don't need to lose 30% of their body mass. People who are 30% overweight do. If one is losing weight in a manner that puts one's body into starvation mode, then he or she is losing the weight in an unhealthy way. At most, an overweight person should lose weight at about 4 to 6 lbs a month. Losing it faster means one is eating in an unsustainable way, and will fail at maintaining a healthy weight.
To successfully maintain a healthy weight a person needs to eat a reasonable amount of calories for his or her height, and activity level, and eat properly for the rest of his or her life.
75, Healthy weight people don't need to lose 30% of their body mass. People who are 30% overweight do. If one is losing weight in a manner that puts one's body into starvation mode, then he or she is losing the weight in an unhealthy way. At most, an overweight person should lose weight at about 4 to 6 lbs a month. Losing it faster means one is eating in an unsustainable way, and will fail at maintaining a healthy weight.
To successfully maintain a healthy weight a person needs to eat a reasonable amount of calories for his or her height, and activity level, and eat properly for the rest of his or her life.
86
I like that Dan is so straightforward. That's his style, you know? That's how he is with every topic, weight included. I think the bigger insult is when people want to sugar-coat, dumb-down and spoon-feed advice for chubbers and give some bullshit cumbaya answer that doesn't play out at all in the real world. I think he's usually respectful, albeit blunt.
87
But 85! Eating Healthily and exercising for the rest of one's life means that they have to be "on a diet" for the rest of their life! Everyone knows dieting isn't healthy!! Fuck chicken breast, broccoli and whole wheat rigatoni in a light white wine sauce, I want some cheeseburgers and fries!!!
88
@75
Clearly you're fat and I encourage you to take breaths when shoveling that Big Mac in your mouth. You might find you're actually full after just a few bites, but you don't. You probably uncomfortably sweat and grunt as you inhale 1400 calories in under two minutes, and that was just your lunch.
For those who stop at starbucs for a extra large moca-fato with a blueberry muffin or have a smoothie for lunch: take a look at the actual calories your eating. Most smoothies have more calories THAN a Big Mac.
Clearly you're fat and I encourage you to take breaths when shoveling that Big Mac in your mouth. You might find you're actually full after just a few bites, but you don't. You probably uncomfortably sweat and grunt as you inhale 1400 calories in under two minutes, and that was just your lunch.
For those who stop at starbucs for a extra large moca-fato with a blueberry muffin or have a smoothie for lunch: take a look at the actual calories your eating. Most smoothies have more calories THAN a Big Mac.
89
Go Lindy, go Lindy!!!
You too Violet de Grinder and you Starsandgarters.
And will all the people who aren't MDs (pretty much every fucking fact hater on here) please shut the fuck up about thyroids. You don't know shit. I happen to have a thyroid problem (it's called HYPO-thyroidism) and yeah it causes a ridiculously sluggish metabolism despite the fact I exercise every effing day. There's also Cushing's syndrome which causes morbid obesity and death. People who have full-blown AIDS some times develop Cushings.
And there's also the BBC's "Why Thin People Are Not Fat" -- possibly the BEST documentary ever made about obesity, or more specifically, why skinny people are FREAKS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6-A0iHSd…
You too Violet de Grinder and you Starsandgarters.
And will all the people who aren't MDs (pretty much every fucking fact hater on here) please shut the fuck up about thyroids. You don't know shit. I happen to have a thyroid problem (it's called HYPO-thyroidism) and yeah it causes a ridiculously sluggish metabolism despite the fact I exercise every effing day. There's also Cushing's syndrome which causes morbid obesity and death. People who have full-blown AIDS some times develop Cushings.
And there's also the BBC's "Why Thin People Are Not Fat" -- possibly the BEST documentary ever made about obesity, or more specifically, why skinny people are FREAKS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6-A0iHSd…
90
The last time I took a human sexuality class, it seemed that the commonly accepted non-crazy medical thinking was that there is a very wide spectrum of natural, healthy human sexuality and that where a person falls on that spectrum and how they express that behaviorally is a combination of genetics and social / psychological factors that we haven't exactly nailed down. There are places on the outer-edges of the spectrum that are pathological and people who fall into those places can cause real harm to themselves or others and in those cases society and the medical community should take positive steps to alleviate whatever conditions put the person in that place on the spectrum and thereby reduce harm.
The last time I took a human physiology class, it seemed that the commonly accepted non-crazy medical thinking on obesity was that there is a very wide spectrum of natural, healthy body types and that where a person falls on that spectrum and how they express that behaviorally is a combination of genetics and social / psychological factors that we haven't exactly nailed down. There are places on the outer-edges of the spectrum that are pathological and people who fall into those places can cause real harm to themselves or others and in those cases society and the medical community should take positive steps to alleviate whatever conditions put the person in that place on the spectrum and thereby reduce harm.
See how that works?
@79 is spot on - Dan doesn't necessarily hate on fat people - in point of fact, the original post about banning fat marriage actually made a very good point about the absurdity of the arguments against gay marriage and parenting - but he is contemptuous of overweight people, or even people who don't fall into the socially defined standard of physical fitness, in a way that only a person who's never been fat and probably never will be can.
Personally, I'm just glad to see somebody on the Stranger staff actually forcefully call Dan out on *anything*, and Lindy is well loved enough that they can't really have her quietly phased out without it getting noticed. Brass balls, funny lady.
More...
The last time I took a human physiology class, it seemed that the commonly accepted non-crazy medical thinking on obesity was that there is a very wide spectrum of natural, healthy body types and that where a person falls on that spectrum and how they express that behaviorally is a combination of genetics and social / psychological factors that we haven't exactly nailed down. There are places on the outer-edges of the spectrum that are pathological and people who fall into those places can cause real harm to themselves or others and in those cases society and the medical community should take positive steps to alleviate whatever conditions put the person in that place on the spectrum and thereby reduce harm.
See how that works?
@79 is spot on - Dan doesn't necessarily hate on fat people - in point of fact, the original post about banning fat marriage actually made a very good point about the absurdity of the arguments against gay marriage and parenting - but he is contemptuous of overweight people, or even people who don't fall into the socially defined standard of physical fitness, in a way that only a person who's never been fat and probably never will be can.
Personally, I'm just glad to see somebody on the Stranger staff actually forcefully call Dan out on *anything*, and Lindy is well loved enough that they can't really have her quietly phased out without it getting noticed. Brass balls, funny lady.
92
I think we should settle this once and for all:
Who would win in a fight? A hundred fat people or a hundred gay people?
Who would win in a fight? A hundred fat people or a hundred gay people?
93
@89, so hypothyroidism + cushings + other metabolic disorders = 30% of the US population? That 30% who are classified as obese and morbidly obese? With that logic I suppose 30% of Americans are severely underweight and morbidly underweight due to hyperthyroidism and other metabolic disorders working in the opposite fashion?
Yeah no. You may have a metabolic disorder, but the rest of y'all are just FAT.
Yeah no. You may have a metabolic disorder, but the rest of y'all are just FAT.
94
@93 The point is that there are a number of reasons people are overweight. Some of those reasons are due to genetic/biological differences in metabolism, some are due to disorderd eating, some are due to inactivity, some are due to medications or medical conditions that affect metabolic rate. All of them are none of your business. But please, continue shame people for being FAT if it makes you feel better about yourself.
95
Wrong. It does affect me, it affects us all. Every time I ride a plane train or bus and half of my seat that I paid for goes to somebody else. When I pay my insurance premiums and that money goes to pay for your type II diabetes treatment. Please. Smokers get shit all the time (seen the NY Times today? Banning smokers, not just tobacco use, in the workplace), the obese are not immune from scrutiny just because it hurts their feelings.
96
@ 87 & 88 - Wow, you guys are major jerks. Your OWN attitudes towards heavy people are coming through loud and clear.
Geez, just try shaming everyone who's dealing with weight issues! Make them feel HORRIBLE about what they're dealing with - the fat you see may just be the tip of the iceberg, you don't know - but you sure DO KNOW HOW TO JUDGE!!
THAT IS SO VERY VERY HELPFUL!!
We get it, you two are not fat and you hate fatties and fatties are horrible lazy people. Check.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR HELPFUL, HELPFUL CONTRIBUTIONS!! I'm sure with the help of you two sterling individuals, America's Obesity Epidemic will be all cleared up in no time!!
Jerks.
And yeah, Dan - it's your tone more often than not. Through your tone, YOU make clear exactly how you feel about fatties. Enough people have called you on it by now, I'd hope you'd at least 'take it under advisement'.
At least, at the very least, it would be great if EVERYONE could realize that when they see a heavy person, THEY DON'T KNOW the circumstances behind that particular body situation. Assuming that they do, and then going on to JUDGE that person based on an assumption, is just a jackass move, plain and simple.
Don't be a jackass.
(And @ 79 - Honey, you deserve a medal!!)
Geez, just try shaming everyone who's dealing with weight issues! Make them feel HORRIBLE about what they're dealing with - the fat you see may just be the tip of the iceberg, you don't know - but you sure DO KNOW HOW TO JUDGE!!
THAT IS SO VERY VERY HELPFUL!!
We get it, you two are not fat and you hate fatties and fatties are horrible lazy people. Check.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR HELPFUL, HELPFUL CONTRIBUTIONS!! I'm sure with the help of you two sterling individuals, America's Obesity Epidemic will be all cleared up in no time!!
Jerks.
And yeah, Dan - it's your tone more often than not. Through your tone, YOU make clear exactly how you feel about fatties. Enough people have called you on it by now, I'd hope you'd at least 'take it under advisement'.
At least, at the very least, it would be great if EVERYONE could realize that when they see a heavy person, THEY DON'T KNOW the circumstances behind that particular body situation. Assuming that they do, and then going on to JUDGE that person based on an assumption, is just a jackass move, plain and simple.
Don't be a jackass.
(And @ 79 - Honey, you deserve a medal!!)
97
96 - just don't see the point in holding others to significantly lesser standards than I hold myself. Everybody ignores my post where I successfully lost 11% of my bodyweight through diet and exercise. I mean, if you don't want to, that's fine, but you're not immune from criticism, just like smokers aren't. And all the fat people screaming "calories in, calories out is not the issue!!" are just either stupid or deluded. Thermodynamics. You can't defy the rules that govern the whole damn universe. I don't really care wether or not you're fat, buy with all the ignorant comments from fat people blaming everyone and everything but their own actions, well, I learned something about the way fat people really think, and it's really abbhorent to me. Take some responsibility! Shit!
98
@ 90 Nicely put.
Everyone is talking about "healthy" people versus fat people, but that isn't really the issue. Yes, like Billy says there is a broad array of healthy body types and the degree of impact that a few extra pounds have on overall health varies depending on where you fall in that spectrum. But that is true of a lot of things: drinking, smoking, marathon running, motor cycle riding, sky diving, sex. All of those things carry with them varying degrees of risk determined by the degree to which the person "indulges." With all of these activities, and as Dan has said about sex, each person needs to assess his or her own level of risk. Should gay men have anal sex? Well, condoms break and talk about cost to society! Anti-retrovirals are EXPENSIVE.
So what is different about fat? Why are a few extra pounds so abhorrent? Why did pastae fagoli lose 15 pounds so that she was back down to 120? Disgust. Just like all the anti gay marriage stuff boils down to, say it with me... disgust. Conservatives drive themselves crazy trying to come up with justifications for why gays are wrong, but really it's just about the "ewww" factor. Anal sex is yucky, so conservatives bring a highly energized level of judgment to any conversation about gay issues. The same happens when people talk about fat. [see comments above.]
I think what this is really about is that many of Dan's readers (and probably Lindy) can detect that when he sees fat, any fat, he sees ugliness and essentially moral failure. He is willing to believe that some people don't find it ugly. He is willing to allow fat people to exist and he will sort of half heartedly advocate for them in his posts and podcasts (but lets be honest, what he really wants the fat chick to do is drop 20 lbs.), but that disgust is palpable to a person sensitive to it. Dan, like many many gay men, would not have sex with a fattie. And I'm not talking about a 300 lb sideshow. If I had to bet I would say that Dan wouldn't be interested in a guys who is even 10 or 20 pounds outside of optimal. Or a guy with a bit of a tummy.
And that is of course his sexual right. But it is our right (I'm no svelte gym bunny) to not enjoy his and everyone else's disgust. And fat is one of the few things it is really ok to not like aesthetically. If I said I would never have sex with a black guy, not matter what, because on some level his dark skin was disgusting to me, people would, in the most generous cases, call me out on it. So that's what is going on. At least that's what I think.
More...
Everyone is talking about "healthy" people versus fat people, but that isn't really the issue. Yes, like Billy says there is a broad array of healthy body types and the degree of impact that a few extra pounds have on overall health varies depending on where you fall in that spectrum. But that is true of a lot of things: drinking, smoking, marathon running, motor cycle riding, sky diving, sex. All of those things carry with them varying degrees of risk determined by the degree to which the person "indulges." With all of these activities, and as Dan has said about sex, each person needs to assess his or her own level of risk. Should gay men have anal sex? Well, condoms break and talk about cost to society! Anti-retrovirals are EXPENSIVE.
So what is different about fat? Why are a few extra pounds so abhorrent? Why did pastae fagoli lose 15 pounds so that she was back down to 120? Disgust. Just like all the anti gay marriage stuff boils down to, say it with me... disgust. Conservatives drive themselves crazy trying to come up with justifications for why gays are wrong, but really it's just about the "ewww" factor. Anal sex is yucky, so conservatives bring a highly energized level of judgment to any conversation about gay issues. The same happens when people talk about fat. [see comments above.]
I think what this is really about is that many of Dan's readers (and probably Lindy) can detect that when he sees fat, any fat, he sees ugliness and essentially moral failure. He is willing to believe that some people don't find it ugly. He is willing to allow fat people to exist and he will sort of half heartedly advocate for them in his posts and podcasts (but lets be honest, what he really wants the fat chick to do is drop 20 lbs.), but that disgust is palpable to a person sensitive to it. Dan, like many many gay men, would not have sex with a fattie. And I'm not talking about a 300 lb sideshow. If I had to bet I would say that Dan wouldn't be interested in a guys who is even 10 or 20 pounds outside of optimal. Or a guy with a bit of a tummy.
And that is of course his sexual right. But it is our right (I'm no svelte gym bunny) to not enjoy his and everyone else's disgust. And fat is one of the few things it is really ok to not like aesthetically. If I said I would never have sex with a black guy, not matter what, because on some level his dark skin was disgusting to me, people would, in the most generous cases, call me out on it. So that's what is going on. At least that's what I think.
99
@98 - DMElkins, I return the kudos wholeheartedly and with extra thumbs up. That was perfect, thank you.
100
And I'll go you one further in the analogy - The most vociferous haters of heavier people are similar to the most vociferous haters of gay people, in that both of them are secretly terrified that they might secretly be / become the thing that they hate. I have nothing but kudos and support for people who are in a legitimately unhealthy relationship with food who make a decision to change that relationship for the better, but, to me, someone like pastaefagoli honestly sounds really similar to a"cured" gay person desperately ranting about how abhorrent and disgusting and morally weak people who are still acting on their "sinful desires" are.
101
@95 You also pay higher premiums to cover people who are unhealthy because don’t eat enough. You pay higher premiums because some people contracted HIV. You pay higher premiums because some people are addicted to cigarettes, drugs, and alcohol. You pay higher premiums because some people eat too much salt. You pay higher premiums because to cover people who do not have health insurance. You also pay higher premiums because people have biological conditions that are an accident of birth.
Weight is not the single metric of healthy living. There are plenty of people who, by their own choice, make poor decisions that negatively affect their health. Allowing people to make shitty decisions is part of the price tag for living in a free society. Unfortunately, the flip-side is having to put up with self-righteous pricks who think they know what’s best for everybody, or that being uncomfortable while sitting on an airplane for a few hours is totally rational justification for being a bigot. You can’t have it all, I guess.
Weight is not the single metric of healthy living. There are plenty of people who, by their own choice, make poor decisions that negatively affect their health. Allowing people to make shitty decisions is part of the price tag for living in a free society. Unfortunately, the flip-side is having to put up with self-righteous pricks who think they know what’s best for everybody, or that being uncomfortable while sitting on an airplane for a few hours is totally rational justification for being a bigot. You can’t have it all, I guess.
102
@ 100
Billy, you have to check out this radio documentary. Honestly, so should pastaefagoli, but if wishes were fishes...
http://www.thirdcoastfestival.org/librar…
Billy, you have to check out this radio documentary. Honestly, so should pastaefagoli, but if wishes were fishes...
http://www.thirdcoastfestival.org/librar…
104
How many overweight or obese people posting in this thread can honestly claim it is completely beyond their control?
105
Oh, and I thought I was arguing against the absurd excuses made by fat people about why they *just can't* lose weight. My bad, I guess I was being bigoted against you all along. Silly me.
Hardly any of the fat people in here say that they don't mind being fat, or prefer to be fat. What they are saying is that they can't lose weight for xyz reasons and how dare you judge me! Nobody is above scrutiny, myself included.
The assertion that I was disgusted with myself + 15 lbs is a little absurd. I prefer the way my clothes fit, the way my body looks and the way I feel at my current weight. I was willing to sacrifice beer and pizza to have the body I wanted to have. I quit smoking, too. It's not just about weight but health, and lifestyle. I got back into cooking, which I always loved, but had neglected for a long time. I don't have to respect your unhealthy lifestyle.
Hardly any of the fat people in here say that they don't mind being fat, or prefer to be fat. What they are saying is that they can't lose weight for xyz reasons and how dare you judge me! Nobody is above scrutiny, myself included.
The assertion that I was disgusted with myself + 15 lbs is a little absurd. I prefer the way my clothes fit, the way my body looks and the way I feel at my current weight. I was willing to sacrifice beer and pizza to have the body I wanted to have. I quit smoking, too. It's not just about weight but health, and lifestyle. I got back into cooking, which I always loved, but had neglected for a long time. I don't have to respect your unhealthy lifestyle.
106
@ 104 How many skinny people can honestly claim that their weight is based solely on their virtuous living and not genetics?
It isn't about it being completely within a person's control, it is about how much mental energy are you willing to expend. Honestly, I'd rather be a little chunky than a lot crazy, which is what it takes for a lot of people with a genetic predisposition towards bigness to fit into the skinny ideal. Neurotic weight obsession, to me, is way more ugly than love handles.
It isn't about it being completely within a person's control, it is about how much mental energy are you willing to expend. Honestly, I'd rather be a little chunky than a lot crazy, which is what it takes for a lot of people with a genetic predisposition towards bigness to fit into the skinny ideal. Neurotic weight obsession, to me, is way more ugly than love handles.
107
106, Do you know how many calories a person of your height and sex should have a day?
Do you know how many calories you take in a day on average?
The vast majority of people who are underweight, average weight, or overweight are so because of factors they control.
Do you know how many calories you take in a day on average?
The vast majority of people who are underweight, average weight, or overweight are so because of factors they control.
108
@106 exactly. My BMI is 24. My weight never fluctuates more than +/- a few lbs and I eat what I want when I want. Whether I'm sedentary or go to the gym (I go back and forth), I have never weighed more than 185 lbs (I'm 6'0). No virtuous living involved. I'm atypical, but no one questions genetics when you're BMI falls in the normal to low range.
Based on my personal experience, I can logically deduce that some people who struggle with their weight have the opposite problem. I also understand that other peoples' weight is none of my fucking business.
Based on my personal experience, I can logically deduce that some people who struggle with their weight have the opposite problem. I also understand that other peoples' weight is none of my fucking business.
109
@ 105 Seriously though, have you read what you've posted? If this isn't all about some deep seated disgust, why are you so pissed? Where is the emotion coming from? You don't like sitting next to *shudder* a fat person? You're upset that your insurance premiums are too high? Are you posting so vociferously on anti-Obamacare Teaparty threads because the #1 way to decrease premiums is to get everyone insured? Why do you really care? Do you not see what a jerk you sound like?
What I'm claiming is that it is complicated. That weight is a combination of a lot of things and that just because you have a particular body type, both naturally and because of your own lifestyle, doesn't meant that magically everyone could or should have that same type of body. It's just way more complicated than that. It has to do with socio-economic factors, culture, genetics, psychology not to mention, I don't know, priorities (i.e. I use my time and mental energy in different ways: working, studying, not being an asshole). So, you looking at someone who doesn't look like you and saying "I don't respect your unhealthy lifestyle" is bullshit. It's more complicated than that. And the hubris of assuming that you can at a glance understand the complexity that motivates a stranger is crazy making. Who deputized you? So. If it isn't about disgust, then what is driving you so crazy?
What I'm claiming is that it is complicated. That weight is a combination of a lot of things and that just because you have a particular body type, both naturally and because of your own lifestyle, doesn't meant that magically everyone could or should have that same type of body. It's just way more complicated than that. It has to do with socio-economic factors, culture, genetics, psychology not to mention, I don't know, priorities (i.e. I use my time and mental energy in different ways: working, studying, not being an asshole). So, you looking at someone who doesn't look like you and saying "I don't respect your unhealthy lifestyle" is bullshit. It's more complicated than that. And the hubris of assuming that you can at a glance understand the complexity that motivates a stranger is crazy making. Who deputized you? So. If it isn't about disgust, then what is driving you so crazy?
110
@ 107 Dude, you don't understand the recommended daily calorie intake. It isn't like paying rent every month. Different people have different metabolisms. Yes, some people RADICALLY exceed the recommendations, but to look at someone and think "I eat 2000 calories a day and I weigh 150, and they weigh 190. They must eat 3000 calories a day." is ridiculous. Seriously. The world is more complex than that and any doctor would agree with me.
111
Both my mother and father are overweight, due to excess eating and a sedentary lifestyle. My one brother was 100lbs overweight, overweight his entire life, at 19 he went on a diet, exercised, and as of now, almost 21, has dropped 75 lbs and is still losing. The only reason I never got fat is because I refused to eat the way the rest of my family does. Lots of meat, lots of carbs, canned stringbeans or broccoli at dinner. Pizza every Friday. I stopped eating meat at 13 and started preparing my own meals. I guess I beat my genes, huh?
Get over yourselves, really. It can be done, if you WANT it enough.
Get over yourselves, really. It can be done, if you WANT it enough.
112
Hey Lindy, thanks for kicking this off. This has been a thought-provokin' thread so far.
@ 84 - Thank you, & it went very, very well. Purrrrrr. *sigh* I don't envy you the law firm stress. I have self-employed art stress. Empathy.
Gracias @ 90 & @96, both very eloquent, too. I'm glad the concept of, I decided Dan doesn't hate fat folks after careful reading, came through. I just think the good points he makes get lost in the way it's said. It's pretty easy for a fat person to feel shame & self-loathing, it triggers despair. I think fat people expect better from Dan, as a member of a group that also gets belittled & derided. I wanted to give Dan a fair re-read. This issue comes up w/ him a lot. Anyone who has the knee-jerk reaction that he's simply fatbashing needs to read what he actually says.
@ 87 - congratulations on your weight loss. I'm glad you are healthier. Why should you not hold others up to the high standards you hold yourself to? I dunno - 'cause they ain't you? I read the part where you lost all that weight, but your sanctimonious tone made me not give a half of a shit. I've lost 20 lbs of the *mumble mumble* I have to go so far, but that doesn't make me better than anyone else. It's for me.
***
- Not all fat people are lined up at Starbucks or McDonald's. & a bunch of them are. When you see someone who's overweight eating some Krispy Kremes, it's human nature to say to oneself - a-hahh, as you draw a connection. I agree that Americans in general don't take responsibility, much of the time, for what we shove in our mouths. & I say shove, because eating is done in an absurd hurry, on our way somewhere else. Most of us don't take the time to chew thoroughly, let alone sit down & savor our meal. Forget reading labels, who has time for that? D'ya know it takes 20 minutes for your body to register it's full? I can eat a lot in 20 minutes. As a society, we need to slow the FUCK down when we consume our food.
- Marketing of foods that are unhealthy is relentless. When I gave up TV, I found myself eating fast food a LOT less. I didn't make the connection until I talked it over w/ a nutritionist.
- Our tastebuds are all kindsa warped between the amount of sodium in processed foods & HFCS, fed to us from a very young age. For things to "taste good", they have to stimulate the areas of the tongue we're used to (salty & sweet). Once you work to cut out unnecessary sugar & start cooking low sodium, you'd be shocked at how different foods actually taste. (Better IMO.) Even "diet" soda is an artificial programmer of our mouths, as it's absurdly sweet, sweeter than anything that occurs in nature.
- Most people I know spend almost no time cooking, & many don't know how. This is sad & a large part of the obesity problem.
- This is an issue that doesn't apply too much to this readership, but there are lots of people who don't have access to the right choices. If you have lived in Seattle or a similar environment all of your life, you won't grok that. I've moved 20 times & lived in both richer & poorer areas. If you don't have a car & transit isn't nearby, so getting to a grocery store is a hassle, but there's a McDeath's right across the street, guess what's usually for dinner?
Or maybe you can get to the store, but can't afford those better choices. When I decided to change my habits for good & eat healthier, I was aghast at how much more fish & fresh produce cost me than say, a box of mac & cheese or a burger. I've since learned better budgeting - hittin' up farmer's markets & such - but I'm self employed (flexible schedule) & no kids. That's atypical. Not everyone has the time & energy to do that. Or money! The last time the topic of obesity came up here, there was some asshole who was all - just shop @ Whole Foods! Riiight, all of us can afford Whole Paycheck.
- I went 13 years without healthcare, 'cause I couldn't afford insurance. I take much better care of myself now that I have insurance. I'm sure lack of healthcare is a obesity factor for many.
OTOH -
Weight is not the only metric of health, @95, but it is *a* metric, & in a country w/ as many overweight citizens as we have, an important one currently. I think fat people don't do ourselves any favors by saying weight & health aren't related.
At its base, the body is a machine. The machine only needs enough fuel to function. Overfill the tank, it hangs on as pounds. Use crap fuel, as opposed to high octane of fish & veggies & such, ditto. That's the base issue. There are folks like m'self & others posting here, who have a metabolic complication, but that is NOT the majority of the obesity problem in the U.S. & I'll totally cop to having previously made bad choices, eating for the wrong reasons, etc.
Don't think any of that excuses the totally self-righteous tone of the "oh der hurr, pick on the fatties". Because that sure ain't gonna help, other than giving you a chance to sling your keyboard balls around.
OK, have to start paying attention to work again, sounds like the guy on the other end of this conference call is winding down. Here is my non-Big-Mac lunch. Left side of the tuna was lunch, right will be dinner. 'cause this week I can afford some seafood -
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/7898/…
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@ 84 - Thank you, & it went very, very well. Purrrrrr. *sigh* I don't envy you the law firm stress. I have self-employed art stress. Empathy.
Gracias @ 90 & @96, both very eloquent, too. I'm glad the concept of, I decided Dan doesn't hate fat folks after careful reading, came through. I just think the good points he makes get lost in the way it's said. It's pretty easy for a fat person to feel shame & self-loathing, it triggers despair. I think fat people expect better from Dan, as a member of a group that also gets belittled & derided. I wanted to give Dan a fair re-read. This issue comes up w/ him a lot. Anyone who has the knee-jerk reaction that he's simply fatbashing needs to read what he actually says.
@ 87 - congratulations on your weight loss. I'm glad you are healthier. Why should you not hold others up to the high standards you hold yourself to? I dunno - 'cause they ain't you? I read the part where you lost all that weight, but your sanctimonious tone made me not give a half of a shit. I've lost 20 lbs of the *mumble mumble* I have to go so far, but that doesn't make me better than anyone else. It's for me.
***
- Not all fat people are lined up at Starbucks or McDonald's. & a bunch of them are. When you see someone who's overweight eating some Krispy Kremes, it's human nature to say to oneself - a-hahh, as you draw a connection. I agree that Americans in general don't take responsibility, much of the time, for what we shove in our mouths. & I say shove, because eating is done in an absurd hurry, on our way somewhere else. Most of us don't take the time to chew thoroughly, let alone sit down & savor our meal. Forget reading labels, who has time for that? D'ya know it takes 20 minutes for your body to register it's full? I can eat a lot in 20 minutes. As a society, we need to slow the FUCK down when we consume our food.
- Marketing of foods that are unhealthy is relentless. When I gave up TV, I found myself eating fast food a LOT less. I didn't make the connection until I talked it over w/ a nutritionist.
- Our tastebuds are all kindsa warped between the amount of sodium in processed foods & HFCS, fed to us from a very young age. For things to "taste good", they have to stimulate the areas of the tongue we're used to (salty & sweet). Once you work to cut out unnecessary sugar & start cooking low sodium, you'd be shocked at how different foods actually taste. (Better IMO.) Even "diet" soda is an artificial programmer of our mouths, as it's absurdly sweet, sweeter than anything that occurs in nature.
- Most people I know spend almost no time cooking, & many don't know how. This is sad & a large part of the obesity problem.
- This is an issue that doesn't apply too much to this readership, but there are lots of people who don't have access to the right choices. If you have lived in Seattle or a similar environment all of your life, you won't grok that. I've moved 20 times & lived in both richer & poorer areas. If you don't have a car & transit isn't nearby, so getting to a grocery store is a hassle, but there's a McDeath's right across the street, guess what's usually for dinner?
Or maybe you can get to the store, but can't afford those better choices. When I decided to change my habits for good & eat healthier, I was aghast at how much more fish & fresh produce cost me than say, a box of mac & cheese or a burger. I've since learned better budgeting - hittin' up farmer's markets & such - but I'm self employed (flexible schedule) & no kids. That's atypical. Not everyone has the time & energy to do that. Or money! The last time the topic of obesity came up here, there was some asshole who was all - just shop @ Whole Foods! Riiight, all of us can afford Whole Paycheck.
- I went 13 years without healthcare, 'cause I couldn't afford insurance. I take much better care of myself now that I have insurance. I'm sure lack of healthcare is a obesity factor for many.
OTOH -
Weight is not the only metric of health, @95, but it is *a* metric, & in a country w/ as many overweight citizens as we have, an important one currently. I think fat people don't do ourselves any favors by saying weight & health aren't related.
At its base, the body is a machine. The machine only needs enough fuel to function. Overfill the tank, it hangs on as pounds. Use crap fuel, as opposed to high octane of fish & veggies & such, ditto. That's the base issue. There are folks like m'self & others posting here, who have a metabolic complication, but that is NOT the majority of the obesity problem in the U.S. & I'll totally cop to having previously made bad choices, eating for the wrong reasons, etc.
Don't think any of that excuses the totally self-righteous tone of the "oh der hurr, pick on the fatties". Because that sure ain't gonna help, other than giving you a chance to sling your keyboard balls around.
OK, have to start paying attention to work again, sounds like the guy on the other end of this conference call is winding down. Here is my non-Big-Mac lunch. Left side of the tuna was lunch, right will be dinner. 'cause this week I can afford some seafood -
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/7898/…
114
@ 107, it is only partly beyond my control. The parts I can control, I'm workin' on. @ 111, again, good for you; it is very hard to want to be healthier when your family is obese. That explains some of your snotty, judgmental tone.
@ 109 - what you said.
@ 109 - what you said.
115
109/110: I'm actually staunchly liberal and believe all people should be insured. But I am an asshole, and I make no apologies for that. I also don't put up with whiny baby blame everyone else for Nubian problems bullshit. I actually don't care if anyone is individually fat. Except of course, when they take up half of a seat that I paid for. I am entitled to the space that I paid for, regardless of wether or not my ass takes up that entire space. It wasn't until this series of slog posts where I saw, for the first time, the excuses made from people who tried and failed to lose weight. I don't like when people don't take responsibility for their own actions.
Everyone has different metabolic rates, and everyone eats different amounts. So? Your point? A person with a high metabolism can still overeat, and a person with a low metabolism can avoid weight gain by not eating more than they need. Come on now people!
Everyone has different metabolic rates, and everyone eats different amounts. So? Your point? A person with a high metabolism can still overeat, and a person with a low metabolism can avoid weight gain by not eating more than they need. Come on now people!
116
110, You didn't answer my questions.
Do you know how may calories you should be eating a day, and do you know the calories you actually eat.
Do you know how may calories you should be eating a day, and do you know the calories you actually eat.
117
112, I didn't know all those things mitigated personal responsibility. Thanks for opening my eyes!
You only hear snotty because it's not what you want to hear and it's not nice. I never tried to be nice.
Contrary to popular belief, I don't even notice fat people eating krispy kremes. I only found out that fat people can't lose weight because it's too hard/inconvenient to try from all the fat sloggers.
You only hear snotty because it's not what you want to hear and it's not nice. I never tried to be nice.
Contrary to popular belief, I don't even notice fat people eating krispy kremes. I only found out that fat people can't lose weight because it's too hard/inconvenient to try from all the fat sloggers.
118
I've known several insulin diabetics in my life (had to give themselves injections). Strangely, none of them were overweight. Two of them were born with it, one developed it after her umpteenth pregnancy (her husband was rabidly Catholic). One was a bodybuilder who practically lived at the gym. Another was a vegan in her early twenties. Again, all of them were svelte.
I've been tested for diabetes at least a dozen times and don't have it. Strangely, I'm 50 pounds overweight (depending on which height/weight chart you go by). Even when I'm at my lowest weight (170) according to these various charts I'm STILL 30 pounds overweight. When I had my cholesterol checked a year ago the med students at Harborview were once again oohing and aahing over my blood panel. I'm told I have the cholesterol levels of a teenage athlete. Go figure. Blood pressure? As long as I limit myself to 1/2 cup of caffeinated coffee or tea per day, my BP is nearly a perfect 120/75. (For the record: my parents and grandparents all died from smoking-related illnesses.)
Ultimately, it doesn't matter what you say to fat haters, Lindy. They have a tiresome, misogynistic theory as to why people are overweight, and they're going to stick to it because then the heat's not on them. Their theory: fat people are fat because they're gluttonous and lazy. The end.
They won't entertain more progressive, alternative theories like: maybe obesity IS a disease and should be treated like one. They'll lose their scapegoat.
I've been tested for diabetes at least a dozen times and don't have it. Strangely, I'm 50 pounds overweight (depending on which height/weight chart you go by). Even when I'm at my lowest weight (170) according to these various charts I'm STILL 30 pounds overweight. When I had my cholesterol checked a year ago the med students at Harborview were once again oohing and aahing over my blood panel. I'm told I have the cholesterol levels of a teenage athlete. Go figure. Blood pressure? As long as I limit myself to 1/2 cup of caffeinated coffee or tea per day, my BP is nearly a perfect 120/75. (For the record: my parents and grandparents all died from smoking-related illnesses.)
Ultimately, it doesn't matter what you say to fat haters, Lindy. They have a tiresome, misogynistic theory as to why people are overweight, and they're going to stick to it because then the heat's not on them. Their theory: fat people are fat because they're gluttonous and lazy. The end.
They won't entertain more progressive, alternative theories like: maybe obesity IS a disease and should be treated like one. They'll lose their scapegoat.
119
@111 See this is exactly what I'm talking about! You are bringing your childhood issues to a discussion about SOMEONE ELSE'S LIFE. At 13, the age when many eating disorders begin to emerge, the age when children are really starting to suffer under the weight of judgment and peer pressure, you looked at your family and went "Yuck! I don't want to be like that." And you made significant changes to your lifestyle to avoid being 100 lbs overweight. And that is great! Seriously. Where I take issue is that you are taking that little girl's disgusted reaction to her parents and who she was afraid she would become and you are looking at all the fat people you see with that same disgust. And hey, it's fine to be an asshole, but I just don't like it when childhood bullshit causes people to lash out at someone who have NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. You aren't a better person JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE THINNER. There isn't one right body. And the isn't one type of attractive person.
And yeah it must be TERRIBLE to have to share part of your seat with a fat person. But imagine how terrible it is for that fat person to sit next to someone who is disgusted by him or her. Bad day arithmetic says that the fat person has more to complain about, and it would be a lot easier for you to stop being judgmental than it would for them to drop 100 lbs. But I guess they deserve it, so never mind.
P.S. You seem to think that I'm obese or something. I'm 6'0". I have a 32" waist and I weigh 185 lbs. You don't have to be obese to think it's ok to have a different body type.
And yeah it must be TERRIBLE to have to share part of your seat with a fat person. But imagine how terrible it is for that fat person to sit next to someone who is disgusted by him or her. Bad day arithmetic says that the fat person has more to complain about, and it would be a lot easier for you to stop being judgmental than it would for them to drop 100 lbs. But I guess they deserve it, so never mind.
P.S. You seem to think that I'm obese or something. I'm 6'0". I have a 32" waist and I weigh 185 lbs. You don't have to be obese to think it's ok to have a different body type.
120
@ 112, yeah - poverty, being too busy to cook, not having healthcare - some of those things ARE beyond many people's control. You sound determined & smart - you could likely make your points without being an asshole..which you say w/ some pride. Fine, just, don't expect someone looking for a serious point to care. Keyboard balls. You get your two points for snark, & that's all.
If I was using your model, now I'd whine about how I personally take individual responsibility, didn't you see the part where I lost weight, etc. But this isn't just a problem for me, it's a country wide epidemic. Folks sit in chairs to work all day, as opposed to lifting, hauling, farming, & things they used to do. Those other factors I listed all figure in heavily (pun intended) according to the doctors & nutritionists I've spoken to.
So, you're a scientist, aside from oh just STFU fatty, d'ya have any ideas for possible solutions to any of that?
If I was using your model, now I'd whine about how I personally take individual responsibility, didn't you see the part where I lost weight, etc. But this isn't just a problem for me, it's a country wide epidemic. Folks sit in chairs to work all day, as opposed to lifting, hauling, farming, & things they used to do. Those other factors I listed all figure in heavily (pun intended) according to the doctors & nutritionists I've spoken to.
So, you're a scientist, aside from oh just STFU fatty, d'ya have any ideas for possible solutions to any of that?
123
I appreciate Mr. Savage's no nonsense "get your shit together" message on pretty much everything. That is to say, I agree with his message, not always his tone. Folks around these parts (and I am a born and raised Washingtonian) could sometimes use an injection of soothsaying-no-bullshit-full-of-attitude opinions. Ms. West is defensive, and I would be too, but sometimes one has to extract a message from the tone of argument rather than just getting caught up on what it sounds like. It reeks of over sensitivity - which also over personalizes the message, rather distilling the actual point.
Here is my story as this topic has surrounded nearly my entire life:
I used to be obese and it took me nearly 6 years to get lean. I was chubby from the age of 11 when I moved away from all my friends in grade school. My mother, brother and I moved in with an alcoholic step father who cursed at my mother and threw shit around and occasionally hit her. Food became comfort. I ate tons of fast food, was made fun of in school for being fat and didn't play any sports or have many friends.
Things got better for me. I was able to make many good friends, become a musician, develop a personality, have girlfriends, etc. I was still overweight and by the time I was 25, was nearly 50 lbs pounds overweight and generally very unhappy that I'd "blown" the prime of my life living extremely unhealthily. I made a decision to turn it around. And it's a decision I have to make every day to maintain my current healthy weight.
As a result of focusing so much on weight loss, I have developed a mild form of body dysmorphia - I always think I look fat, even though I'm not. I am now actually trying to gain weight (!) in order to gain muscle. I have been borderline anorexic at times as well, refusing to eat. Now I am generally happy with my body as I have had to "practice" telling myself I am not fat, work out 3 - 6 times a week, and eat as healthy as possible and give myself a pass if I gorge once in awhile. I have kept 50+ pounds off for more than 5 years now and have gone through all these extremes to accomplish that. I mention this because my perceived "health" or skinniness or scrawniness, is as complex as any obese person's perceived health where being overweight is concerned.
I have valid reasons to dislike the lifestyle choices my friends and family make because mine were/are so hard to maintain. I want them to live long and healthy lives! This also translates into disliking the choices people I work with make - they constantly snack, ask me to snack with them, etc. I have a valid fear of becoming fat and I think a valid reason to dislike those who would want me to be complicit in their fatness by snacking, etc. Find a smoker who will malign you because: "you look too healthy, you should smoke this!" We know smoking is bad, we know being obese is bad. Just because one lifelong smoker lives until 90 doesn't mean that we should go easy on the habit. The same rings true for obesity. Which is mostly about the habit of eating.
Friends and family often remark at my current body weight, knowing I used to be heavier and saying I look gaunt, scrawny, unhealthy. Oddly, no one noticed when I was borderline anorexic (I was still overweight) but now that I am eating plenty, gaining a lot of muscle mass and generally looking like the athlete I could never have been before, folks remark that I am too scrawny, as if I am not fat enough to be accepted. The statistics bear out that "skinny" people will face endless pressure to join the ranks of the obese, who will become the majority soon enough.
This topic obviously stirs up some complex shit for me, sorry for the rant.
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Here is my story as this topic has surrounded nearly my entire life:
I used to be obese and it took me nearly 6 years to get lean. I was chubby from the age of 11 when I moved away from all my friends in grade school. My mother, brother and I moved in with an alcoholic step father who cursed at my mother and threw shit around and occasionally hit her. Food became comfort. I ate tons of fast food, was made fun of in school for being fat and didn't play any sports or have many friends.
Things got better for me. I was able to make many good friends, become a musician, develop a personality, have girlfriends, etc. I was still overweight and by the time I was 25, was nearly 50 lbs pounds overweight and generally very unhappy that I'd "blown" the prime of my life living extremely unhealthily. I made a decision to turn it around. And it's a decision I have to make every day to maintain my current healthy weight.
As a result of focusing so much on weight loss, I have developed a mild form of body dysmorphia - I always think I look fat, even though I'm not. I am now actually trying to gain weight (!) in order to gain muscle. I have been borderline anorexic at times as well, refusing to eat. Now I am generally happy with my body as I have had to "practice" telling myself I am not fat, work out 3 - 6 times a week, and eat as healthy as possible and give myself a pass if I gorge once in awhile. I have kept 50+ pounds off for more than 5 years now and have gone through all these extremes to accomplish that. I mention this because my perceived "health" or skinniness or scrawniness, is as complex as any obese person's perceived health where being overweight is concerned.
I have valid reasons to dislike the lifestyle choices my friends and family make because mine were/are so hard to maintain. I want them to live long and healthy lives! This also translates into disliking the choices people I work with make - they constantly snack, ask me to snack with them, etc. I have a valid fear of becoming fat and I think a valid reason to dislike those who would want me to be complicit in their fatness by snacking, etc. Find a smoker who will malign you because: "you look too healthy, you should smoke this!" We know smoking is bad, we know being obese is bad. Just because one lifelong smoker lives until 90 doesn't mean that we should go easy on the habit. The same rings true for obesity. Which is mostly about the habit of eating.
Friends and family often remark at my current body weight, knowing I used to be heavier and saying I look gaunt, scrawny, unhealthy. Oddly, no one noticed when I was borderline anorexic (I was still overweight) but now that I am eating plenty, gaining a lot of muscle mass and generally looking like the athlete I could never have been before, folks remark that I am too scrawny, as if I am not fat enough to be accepted. The statistics bear out that "skinny" people will face endless pressure to join the ranks of the obese, who will become the majority soon enough.
This topic obviously stirs up some complex shit for me, sorry for the rant.
124
119, actually, it was because I don't like meat and potatoes. I like Brussels sprouts with olive oil. I never made the conscious decision to not get fat, I made the decision to eat the foods that I like to eat.
What everyone keeps ignoring is thermodynamics.
I still don't care if you're fat or not. I don't hate fat people. I don't hate my parents (who aren't 100 lbs overweight, just pleasantly plump). I honestly don't care about your body, BUT WHEN YOU SAY YOU TRIED TO LOSE WEIGHT AND FAILED AND THAT CALORIES IN/CALORIES OUT DOESN'T DETERMINE WEIGHT, I HAVE TO CALL YOUR BULLSHIT. Matter can be neither created or destroyed. First law of thermodynamics. Please people. Go you're all so ignorant.
I never said I was better than anyone because I was thinner, I said I was better than those people who WANT to lose weight and don't have the willpower to do what it takes. Namely, giving up the pleasure they get from high calorie low nutrient foods, and learning to derive pleasure from exercise. It's actually really good when you STICK TO IT AND DON'T GIVE UP JUST BECAUSE ITA HARD.
If someone who needs a seat and a half doesn't want to sit next to someone pissed off that they have another human in their lap, then they should buy two seats. Tough shit, life's not fair.
118: educate yourself. Insulin dependent diabetics are Type I. Type II diabetics make insulin (sometimes not enough, but sometimes too much) and their cells no longer utilize it correctly. Some of them take insulin, but your friends who were born with it are Type I. Women who experience gestational diabetes have an increase chance of developing Type II. This is independent of weight, therefore your examples do not apply to this discussion. I'd also like to point out that the existence of unhealthy thin people and in your case seemingly healthy obese people does not mean that obesity has no affect on health. Arguing that point is absurd.
And although it counters my argument a bit, I feel I have to mention the AD36 adenovirus. The so called "fat virus" is found at a much higher rate in the obese than those of normal weight. Now, the thing is, comparing obese people with AD36 antibodies to obese people without, those who had been exposed to the virus had much lower cholesterol levels. One theory is that cholesterol may be being deposited in arteries as opposed to being protein bound and circulating. Just thought I should mention it. If your diet is high in cholesterol and saturated fats, its gotta be going somewhere. None of this is substantiated, and has not been adequately studied at this point, so this information is likely to change.
And, uh, can you tell me what misogyny has to do with this, or are we just saying any $2 word we can now?
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What everyone keeps ignoring is thermodynamics.
I still don't care if you're fat or not. I don't hate fat people. I don't hate my parents (who aren't 100 lbs overweight, just pleasantly plump). I honestly don't care about your body, BUT WHEN YOU SAY YOU TRIED TO LOSE WEIGHT AND FAILED AND THAT CALORIES IN/CALORIES OUT DOESN'T DETERMINE WEIGHT, I HAVE TO CALL YOUR BULLSHIT. Matter can be neither created or destroyed. First law of thermodynamics. Please people. Go you're all so ignorant.
I never said I was better than anyone because I was thinner, I said I was better than those people who WANT to lose weight and don't have the willpower to do what it takes. Namely, giving up the pleasure they get from high calorie low nutrient foods, and learning to derive pleasure from exercise. It's actually really good when you STICK TO IT AND DON'T GIVE UP JUST BECAUSE ITA HARD.
If someone who needs a seat and a half doesn't want to sit next to someone pissed off that they have another human in their lap, then they should buy two seats. Tough shit, life's not fair.
118: educate yourself. Insulin dependent diabetics are Type I. Type II diabetics make insulin (sometimes not enough, but sometimes too much) and their cells no longer utilize it correctly. Some of them take insulin, but your friends who were born with it are Type I. Women who experience gestational diabetes have an increase chance of developing Type II. This is independent of weight, therefore your examples do not apply to this discussion. I'd also like to point out that the existence of unhealthy thin people and in your case seemingly healthy obese people does not mean that obesity has no affect on health. Arguing that point is absurd.
And although it counters my argument a bit, I feel I have to mention the AD36 adenovirus. The so called "fat virus" is found at a much higher rate in the obese than those of normal weight. Now, the thing is, comparing obese people with AD36 antibodies to obese people without, those who had been exposed to the virus had much lower cholesterol levels. One theory is that cholesterol may be being deposited in arteries as opposed to being protein bound and circulating. Just thought I should mention it. If your diet is high in cholesterol and saturated fats, its gotta be going somewhere. None of this is substantiated, and has not been adequately studied at this point, so this information is likely to change.
And, uh, can you tell me what misogyny has to do with this, or are we just saying any $2 word we can now?
125
@ 116
There are several overlapping arguments going on here.
First, that you can look at a fat person and KNOW the content of their character: laziness and gluttony. It is about you seeing someone on the bus and imagining them eating case after case of twinkies. My argument is that you can't ASSUME that a bigger person is any more gluttonous than a skinny person because A) there are plenty of skinny people with great metabolisms who take great joy in eating whatever they want and B) there are PLENTY of fat people who would have to go to extraordinary means (anorexia, bulemia, obsessive and unhealthy exercise regimes) to look a way that would make you stop judging them/be disgusted by them. Does eating too much food cause obesity? Yes. Is everyone's experience of weight lose the same? No. And that matters because you and pastaefagoli are judging people from your own experiences.
Then there is a matter of health. There is actually debate within the medical community concerning what exactly is the best weight. Essentially there have been two findings: A) that certain diseases are actually less common among people who are outside the normal weight range. B) that persistent dieting and fluctuating weight ARE NOT GOOD FOR YOU. This kind of constant weight vigilance is what is necessary to take a naturally stockier or bigger body and force it to conform to one particular axis of body health. No it isn't good for your health to be 100 lbs overweight, but 20 even 30 lbs can actually protect you from certain diseases.
Then there is the matter of aesthetics. And this is, I think where everything else comes from: people find fat ugly and no one wants to be ugly. If someone has love handles, if someone has a belly. Yuck. We are trained to find fat gross, just as conservative Christians are trained to find homosexuality gross, so they go into the world legislating what is essentially NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS. And they think they are doing it for the good of the community or for the good of the gay person. But that isn't why they do it. They do it because they think it's gross, and that means that conservative Christians will NEVER be able to have a reasonable conversation about gay issues. When you are disgusted by the person you are in dialogue with, shit falls apart. And the same thing happens when people talk about fat.
So yes, I would be great if we could prevent the catastrophic obesity that ruins lives. But there are a great many people who are healthy and yes, attractive but are stigmatized in this climate of fat hysteria. "It's an EPIDEMIC! AND IT'S CATCHING! And if only those lazy, ugly, gluttonous fat people would act more like me, we could find a cure." Really, obesity is linked to education and economic opportunity, so unless you think poor people are just inherently less virtuous than the wealthy, we should spend less time recriminating and more time looking at how the structure of society affects health in America. And the first step in that is to disentangle that disgusted feeling from all this other bullshit rationalization. Because that's what it is.
More...
There are several overlapping arguments going on here.
First, that you can look at a fat person and KNOW the content of their character: laziness and gluttony. It is about you seeing someone on the bus and imagining them eating case after case of twinkies. My argument is that you can't ASSUME that a bigger person is any more gluttonous than a skinny person because A) there are plenty of skinny people with great metabolisms who take great joy in eating whatever they want and B) there are PLENTY of fat people who would have to go to extraordinary means (anorexia, bulemia, obsessive and unhealthy exercise regimes) to look a way that would make you stop judging them/be disgusted by them. Does eating too much food cause obesity? Yes. Is everyone's experience of weight lose the same? No. And that matters because you and pastaefagoli are judging people from your own experiences.
Then there is a matter of health. There is actually debate within the medical community concerning what exactly is the best weight. Essentially there have been two findings: A) that certain diseases are actually less common among people who are outside the normal weight range. B) that persistent dieting and fluctuating weight ARE NOT GOOD FOR YOU. This kind of constant weight vigilance is what is necessary to take a naturally stockier or bigger body and force it to conform to one particular axis of body health. No it isn't good for your health to be 100 lbs overweight, but 20 even 30 lbs can actually protect you from certain diseases.
Then there is the matter of aesthetics. And this is, I think where everything else comes from: people find fat ugly and no one wants to be ugly. If someone has love handles, if someone has a belly. Yuck. We are trained to find fat gross, just as conservative Christians are trained to find homosexuality gross, so they go into the world legislating what is essentially NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS. And they think they are doing it for the good of the community or for the good of the gay person. But that isn't why they do it. They do it because they think it's gross, and that means that conservative Christians will NEVER be able to have a reasonable conversation about gay issues. When you are disgusted by the person you are in dialogue with, shit falls apart. And the same thing happens when people talk about fat.
So yes, I would be great if we could prevent the catastrophic obesity that ruins lives. But there are a great many people who are healthy and yes, attractive but are stigmatized in this climate of fat hysteria. "It's an EPIDEMIC! AND IT'S CATCHING! And if only those lazy, ugly, gluttonous fat people would act more like me, we could find a cure." Really, obesity is linked to education and economic opportunity, so unless you think poor people are just inherently less virtuous than the wealthy, we should spend less time recriminating and more time looking at how the structure of society affects health in America. And the first step in that is to disentangle that disgusted feeling from all this other bullshit rationalization. Because that's what it is.
126
PS - I have to agree with pastaefagoli's comments about weight loss, not the tone, however. My father was very obese so for awhile I thought it was a genetic thing - that I was destined to be fat my entire life. I know that through consistent exercise, proper nutrition and eating habits that you can modify your metabolism. My doctor even told me that my changing my metabolism to such a degree was arguably more difficult than quitting smoking. So I can attest to its difficulty (losing weight) but not its impossibility.
I'm not going to surf for a link right now but I think the evidence is out there that while genetics does play a major role in our "natural" body types, there is quite a bit to be said about conditioning our bodies(i.e. overeating, under eating, alcohol/drug consumption, etc) that effects how our genes react. Garbage in, garbage out.
I'm not going to surf for a link right now but I think the evidence is out there that while genetics does play a major role in our "natural" body types, there is quite a bit to be said about conditioning our bodies(i.e. overeating, under eating, alcohol/drug consumption, etc) that effects how our genes react. Garbage in, garbage out.
127
PPS - I also agree that obesity can be, at times, linked to economic and social conditions which for children largely are out their control. However, once you become an adult, you ultimately have to make a calculated decision about how you want to live your life. If you don't, than I don't think it's that far of a stretch to consider someone lazy. Of course everyone is different and there is way too much stigmatization of all kinds of habits, lifestyles, on and on. The important thing to realize is that whole, organic foods, fruits and vegetables are healthy, that exercise makes everyone feel better and live longer. Yes, they are more expensive/time consuming, but they should be - "you are what you eat". The weight part of this discussion is relevant only to the individual not the society that dictates the so called norms. However, it is fair to say that morbidly obese people are becoming more "normal" and that is a health and cultural crisis we can't ignore.
Jeez, I guess I really don't have enough to do at work today. Happy Friday!
Jeez, I guess I really don't have enough to do at work today. Happy Friday!
128
and to all of those who constantly bring up the cost of obesity on our society (yes it is an extremely high cost and not just financial) how about also examining the high cost of HIV/AIDS on our society and while heterosexuals also get HIV/AIDS it is a devastating disease on the gay community. right? and while gays can't get married - over a lifetime it seems that fat people suffer much more blatant discrimination - from how they are treated by their peers, lack of love, loss of income over a lifetime, and how they are constantly and almost universally loathed and shamed and abused by society. if it's going to come down to whose the more oppressed group - i'd say fat people win. and when dan savage decides to say that his oppression is the only oppression that counts, well that makes me not want to listen to anything he says and makes me care less and less that he is oppressed at all. you can't be an oppressor and a champion for equal rights at the same time. it all becomes just a load of hate speech that i don't want to listen to and any compassion or caring or concern that i did have goes away.
129
This is fun to read.
Here's the thing - even Lindy is using the "can't help it" argument. It's a losing argument. I eat 2000 calories a day and walk everywhere (Chicago is very much a walking city). I am 6'2". I dropped 75 lbs. doing this. I am dropping no further, though. Why? I'm still puting out way more calories than I'm taking in.
Could it be that my body has a minumum weight? Who knows? I weigh 220 and still have a gut. And I'm a gay guy, insert shock and awe. And you know what?
I like it.
I like big guys. I like BEING a big guy. What repulses me is people who eat a tic-tac and a water for lunch and then purge. I personally am not attracted to thin people. Not even a little. Who knows why? I just know that I do.
And it's not up to ANYONE ELSE to tell me any different. My preferences are mine, and my right. I have nothing but contempt for people who try to control to proclivities of consenting adults.
I am healthy. I have normal cholesterol, despite a horrible family history of heart disease. Because of my family history with that and with diabetes, I have checkups every six months and an echo every five years (having a hot bear doctor helps - oh yes it does). All my blood work is normal. I am overweight - and healthy. It IS possible.
Don't try to tell me different until you've been me. I won't judge you for being a stick, and you don't just me for being super-sized. How about that?
Here's the thing - even Lindy is using the "can't help it" argument. It's a losing argument. I eat 2000 calories a day and walk everywhere (Chicago is very much a walking city). I am 6'2". I dropped 75 lbs. doing this. I am dropping no further, though. Why? I'm still puting out way more calories than I'm taking in.
Could it be that my body has a minumum weight? Who knows? I weigh 220 and still have a gut. And I'm a gay guy, insert shock and awe. And you know what?
I like it.
I like big guys. I like BEING a big guy. What repulses me is people who eat a tic-tac and a water for lunch and then purge. I personally am not attracted to thin people. Not even a little. Who knows why? I just know that I do.
And it's not up to ANYONE ELSE to tell me any different. My preferences are mine, and my right. I have nothing but contempt for people who try to control to proclivities of consenting adults.
I am healthy. I have normal cholesterol, despite a horrible family history of heart disease. Because of my family history with that and with diabetes, I have checkups every six months and an echo every five years (having a hot bear doctor helps - oh yes it does). All my blood work is normal. I am overweight - and healthy. It IS possible.
Don't try to tell me different until you've been me. I won't judge you for being a stick, and you don't just me for being super-sized. How about that?
130
This is fun to read.
Here's the thing - even Lindy is using the "can't help it" argument. It's a losing argument. I eat 2000 calories a day and walk everywhere (Chicago is very much a walking city). I am 6'2". I dropped 75 lbs. doing this. I am dropping no further, though. Why? I'm still putting out way more calories than I'm taking in.
Could it be that my body has a minimum weight? Who knows? I weigh 220 and still have a gut. And I'm a gay man, insert shock and awe. And you know what?
I like it.
I like big guys. I like BEING a big guy. What repulses me is people who eat a tic-tac and a water for lunch and then purge. I personally am not attracted to thin people. Not even a little. Who knows why? I just know that this is the way that I am, and I like being this way.
And it's not up to ANYONE ELSE to tell me to be any different. My preferences are mine, and my right. I have nothing but contempt for people who try to control to proclivities of consenting adults.
I am healthy. I have normal cholesterol, despite a horrible family history of heart disease. Because of my family history with that and with diabetes, I have checkups every six months and an echo every five years (having a hot bear doctor helps - oh yes it does). All my blood work is normal. I am overweight - and healthy. It IS possible.
Don't try to tell me different until you've been me. I won't judge you for being a stick, and you don't just me for being super-sized. How about that?
Here's the thing - even Lindy is using the "can't help it" argument. It's a losing argument. I eat 2000 calories a day and walk everywhere (Chicago is very much a walking city). I am 6'2". I dropped 75 lbs. doing this. I am dropping no further, though. Why? I'm still putting out way more calories than I'm taking in.
Could it be that my body has a minimum weight? Who knows? I weigh 220 and still have a gut. And I'm a gay man, insert shock and awe. And you know what?
I like it.
I like big guys. I like BEING a big guy. What repulses me is people who eat a tic-tac and a water for lunch and then purge. I personally am not attracted to thin people. Not even a little. Who knows why? I just know that this is the way that I am, and I like being this way.
And it's not up to ANYONE ELSE to tell me to be any different. My preferences are mine, and my right. I have nothing but contempt for people who try to control to proclivities of consenting adults.
I am healthy. I have normal cholesterol, despite a horrible family history of heart disease. Because of my family history with that and with diabetes, I have checkups every six months and an echo every five years (having a hot bear doctor helps - oh yes it does). All my blood work is normal. I am overweight - and healthy. It IS possible.
Don't try to tell me different until you've been me. I won't judge you for being a stick, and you don't just me for being super-sized. How about that?
131
Sorry about the duplicate - registration hiccup. The latter was the correct version, if an admin cares to delete the first as a dupe.
132
Regarding the whole thermodynamics things. yes, it's true that calories in = calories out, but the thing you're skipping over is what happens INSIDE THE BODY between the in and out.
I just watched the video someone posted above: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6-A0iHSd… and it's quite interesting.
Apparently some people's bodies respond to increased caloric intake by simply increasing their Basal metabolism. The extra calories are used to lay down lean tissue, even without any exercise! Conversely, some people's bodies respond to increased caloric intake by increasing the actual NUMBER of fat cells they have in their body so they can more effectively gain weight. And once your body has increased the number of fat cells, you are FOREVER and PERMANENTLY prone to capturing more calories as fat then other people with less fat cells. For the rest of your life you will be fatter.
So yes, thermodynamics. But you're excluding the bodies internal metabolic response and how different people respond wildly differently. This is why judging others makes no sense. I have no idea what's going on in their bodies.
I just watched the video someone posted above: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6-A0iHSd… and it's quite interesting.
Apparently some people's bodies respond to increased caloric intake by simply increasing their Basal metabolism. The extra calories are used to lay down lean tissue, even without any exercise! Conversely, some people's bodies respond to increased caloric intake by increasing the actual NUMBER of fat cells they have in their body so they can more effectively gain weight. And once your body has increased the number of fat cells, you are FOREVER and PERMANENTLY prone to capturing more calories as fat then other people with less fat cells. For the rest of your life you will be fatter.
So yes, thermodynamics. But you're excluding the bodies internal metabolic response and how different people respond wildly differently. This is why judging others makes no sense. I have no idea what's going on in their bodies.
133
I think the problem I have with the attitudes here is not about why people are fat but how certain people are discussing them.
I am fat, yes fat - not overweight, larger, heavier - fat. How did I get fat - you're right, I ate the wrong foods - opted for fast and easy over ones that might be more beneficially healthy ie I would grab a bar of chocolate rather than a dinner. I might not have over eaten in calories but I ate the wrong calories.
Now, I am working on this. Not because I think life will be better thin but because I would like to eat properly and not grab and run. What does this mean? I am losing the mythical 4-6lbs a month but I am still currently fat. And therefore I get looked at and judged just as I was before. Here's the bug bear... what's the point in trying if regardless of the efforts, I am stared at with disgust.
Ever got on a sit where you like plane last? Saw the looks of people as they think "god fatty, don't sit near me".
I am not arguing about weight loss and effort - just stop shaming people who are fat.
When I feel crap, I don't eat. I have never "over eaten" I have never upped portion sizes. I did go through a huge beer a night phase, combined with eating the wrong foods put this weight on but I don't binge. Yet when I feel crap about the way people look at me I almost WANT to do this. I want to say "screw you all" and eat a ton of stuff. I just don't.
To add to this, I am healthy. I might have too many pounds on my frame but I have no health problems associated with this. I have stress headaches from my job. I have had skin issues that are hereditary, and brought on by stress, but I have never had to have health care for being overweight and YET when I go to certain doctors, they try to pin everything on being fat. They are surprised when my blood pressure is on the low end of healthy and my cholesterol is low because I am healthy despite being fat.
Sorry, it's a rant and the tl/dr version is just... stop shaming people. You don't know them and what they are doing/going through. It's better to lose a few pounds a month consistently because then it's a lifestyle change than drop dramatically just to please the disgusted faces around you.
But... tolerance is for everyone. I tolerate they disgusted looks because it's your choice to hate my body - but I will not make it my choice and don't ask me to.
More...
I am fat, yes fat - not overweight, larger, heavier - fat. How did I get fat - you're right, I ate the wrong foods - opted for fast and easy over ones that might be more beneficially healthy ie I would grab a bar of chocolate rather than a dinner. I might not have over eaten in calories but I ate the wrong calories.
Now, I am working on this. Not because I think life will be better thin but because I would like to eat properly and not grab and run. What does this mean? I am losing the mythical 4-6lbs a month but I am still currently fat. And therefore I get looked at and judged just as I was before. Here's the bug bear... what's the point in trying if regardless of the efforts, I am stared at with disgust.
Ever got on a sit where you like plane last? Saw the looks of people as they think "god fatty, don't sit near me".
I am not arguing about weight loss and effort - just stop shaming people who are fat.
When I feel crap, I don't eat. I have never "over eaten" I have never upped portion sizes. I did go through a huge beer a night phase, combined with eating the wrong foods put this weight on but I don't binge. Yet when I feel crap about the way people look at me I almost WANT to do this. I want to say "screw you all" and eat a ton of stuff. I just don't.
To add to this, I am healthy. I might have too many pounds on my frame but I have no health problems associated with this. I have stress headaches from my job. I have had skin issues that are hereditary, and brought on by stress, but I have never had to have health care for being overweight and YET when I go to certain doctors, they try to pin everything on being fat. They are surprised when my blood pressure is on the low end of healthy and my cholesterol is low because I am healthy despite being fat.
Sorry, it's a rant and the tl/dr version is just... stop shaming people. You don't know them and what they are doing/going through. It's better to lose a few pounds a month consistently because then it's a lifestyle change than drop dramatically just to please the disgusted faces around you.
But... tolerance is for everyone. I tolerate they disgusted looks because it's your choice to hate my body - but I will not make it my choice and don't ask me to.
134
@78
I chose 30% for a reason. Most people can lose 10-15% and keep it off, especially if they hadn't had the weight on for very long. What you describe is entirely different from somebody who "needs" to lose a huge amount of their body weight (whether or not they actually do "need" to do that is none of your fucking concern, of course).
What I'd like people to realize is that you losing a few pounds you gained over the holidays is an entirely -- entirely! -- different thing than losing a large amount of weight that one has carried for a long time, in terms of biochemistry, and in terms of the experience of the person losing the weight.
Fat people are also not all the same, either in how they got fat, or why they stay fat. Anybody who thinks obesity is a simple issue has not actually looked at the science.
@88
I am fat. I'm also a vegan, working on my masters degree in nutrition research. I really, badly wanna BRING THA DATA on your ass here, but would it matter? No, it would not. You have too much invested in being wrong.
I chose 30% for a reason. Most people can lose 10-15% and keep it off, especially if they hadn't had the weight on for very long. What you describe is entirely different from somebody who "needs" to lose a huge amount of their body weight (whether or not they actually do "need" to do that is none of your fucking concern, of course).
What I'd like people to realize is that you losing a few pounds you gained over the holidays is an entirely -- entirely! -- different thing than losing a large amount of weight that one has carried for a long time, in terms of biochemistry, and in terms of the experience of the person losing the weight.
Fat people are also not all the same, either in how they got fat, or why they stay fat. Anybody who thinks obesity is a simple issue has not actually looked at the science.
@88
I am fat. I'm also a vegan, working on my masters degree in nutrition research. I really, badly wanna BRING THA DATA on your ass here, but would it matter? No, it would not. You have too much invested in being wrong.
135
@ 125 wins this thread so hard. SO HARD.
This has been an awesome thread altogether. Thank you Lindy, for kicking this little pebble down the hill. :)
@ 115 - "Nubian"?? o_O
This has been an awesome thread altogether. Thank you Lindy, for kicking this little pebble down the hill. :)
@ 115 - "Nubian"?? o_O
136
I tolerate the disgusted looks because it's your choice to hate my body - but I will not make it my choice and don't ask me to.
@ 133 - fabulous line!
@ 133 - fabulous line!
137
@133
"I am not arguing about weight loss and effort - just stop shaming people who are fat."
This pretty much sums it up for me. Thank you.
"I am not arguing about weight loss and effort - just stop shaming people who are fat."
This pretty much sums it up for me. Thank you.
139
If losing weight and staying thin were so easy it wouldn't be multi-billion dollar industry. And the obesity epidemic is not longer just in the US -http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14657885/ns/…
People who still think the obesity epidemic is just an American problem are insensitive, close minded and uninformed. In a word - stupid.
For the record, I am not fat. However, I have to work fucking hard not to be. None of this, "don't eat too many sweets and take a brisk walk in the morning" bullshit. Something more like 2 hours of intensive training 5 days a week and no dairy, grains or sugar is what I have to do. Don't tell me it's easy.
People who still think the obesity epidemic is just an American problem are insensitive, close minded and uninformed. In a word - stupid.
For the record, I am not fat. However, I have to work fucking hard not to be. None of this, "don't eat too many sweets and take a brisk walk in the morning" bullshit. Something more like 2 hours of intensive training 5 days a week and no dairy, grains or sugar is what I have to do. Don't tell me it's easy.
141
Can someone please explain to me how dan is hating on fat people? I honestly don't see it. I thought he said that if you are in a relationship with someone and you completely change your body type, it's understandable if they're not attracted to you anymore (either losing OR gaining weight).
142
Wow, I've just learned why my fat gay friends are so self-loathing and convinced no-one will ever love them. Damn.
143
I'm a bit late to the party here, but with some facts/thoughts.
1. Some people do not have the luxury of enough time to exercise properly or cook well, or enough money to buy the right kinds of food.
2. Our bodies are pretty good at telling us when we've had enough protein and fat, but almost incapable of telling us when we've had enough starch or sugar, for evolutionary reasons. Most of the cheap food out there gets most of its calories from starch and/or sugar. In fact, efforts to eat healthier by cutting fat can sometimes exacerbate the problem.
3. It is *hard* not to eat when you're hungry. And some people get hungry at lower thresholds than others. I know at least one woman who, barring pregnancy, was rarely over 120 pounds (and occasionally under 100) until she was well into her 50s--not because she dieted, not because she was an exercise freak, just because she had a high enough metabolism and a low enough appetite (mostly the appetite, I think) that she never over-ate. I, on the other hand, could probably lose 50 pounds without ending up skinny. Not because I stuff my face with fast food and donuts and never exercise, mostly because... I get hungry easily.
4. There's a nasty trick some peoples' bodies do when they try to lose weight. They eat less--and their metabolism goes down to match. So, they're hungry all the time, have no energy, and *still* aren't losing any weight. That will happen to most people who try to starve themselves thin, but it will sometimes happen even from fairly modest calorie restrictions.
5. I seem to remember reading somewhere that dieting can cause depression, even for months to years afterwards. If I have to chose between being chubby and happy, or thin and unhappy, I'll be chubby and happy.
1. Some people do not have the luxury of enough time to exercise properly or cook well, or enough money to buy the right kinds of food.
2. Our bodies are pretty good at telling us when we've had enough protein and fat, but almost incapable of telling us when we've had enough starch or sugar, for evolutionary reasons. Most of the cheap food out there gets most of its calories from starch and/or sugar. In fact, efforts to eat healthier by cutting fat can sometimes exacerbate the problem.
3. It is *hard* not to eat when you're hungry. And some people get hungry at lower thresholds than others. I know at least one woman who, barring pregnancy, was rarely over 120 pounds (and occasionally under 100) until she was well into her 50s--not because she dieted, not because she was an exercise freak, just because she had a high enough metabolism and a low enough appetite (mostly the appetite, I think) that she never over-ate. I, on the other hand, could probably lose 50 pounds without ending up skinny. Not because I stuff my face with fast food and donuts and never exercise, mostly because... I get hungry easily.
4. There's a nasty trick some peoples' bodies do when they try to lose weight. They eat less--and their metabolism goes down to match. So, they're hungry all the time, have no energy, and *still* aren't losing any weight. That will happen to most people who try to starve themselves thin, but it will sometimes happen even from fairly modest calorie restrictions.
5. I seem to remember reading somewhere that dieting can cause depression, even for months to years afterwards. If I have to chose between being chubby and happy, or thin and unhappy, I'll be chubby and happy.
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