Slog
News & ArtsThursday, January 20, 2011
Music Do Not Feed Donuts To Your Obese Children
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 8:10 AM
Every time I read something about childhood obesity... this Tim Minchin song starts to play in my head. Yes, it's harsh, brutal even, very nearly bullying. But... um... you gotta admit that there's a grain Cinnabun or two of truth to it.
1
You know, my mom used to play the same record over and over when I was a kid, to the point that a neighbour came over and gave her a new one, because his head was about to explode (open windows, loud volume, 1974, etc.) I am wondering if your family is experiencing the same thing with the Minchin festival? Would your lovely husband appreciate a gift of earplugs, or perhaps a few batts of soundproofing? (Not that Tim Minchin isn't completely awesome, in moderation...)
2
I have had occasion to hear people blame their obsesity on genetics. I have resisted telling them fat doesn't enter their bodies by their airways.
4
@1 Dan being on the road alot probabley helps w/ that. Frequent business trips are the key to many a sucessful marraige.
5
I totally understand this. As a proud member of the first generation of super obese children I really do blame my parents. I have since turning 18 lost almost all of that weight but in doing so have had to teach myself how to eat correctly because no one ever did. I always thought it was ok (and apparently so did my parents) to have 3 donuts at a sitting. It was a harsh shock when I realized i could not.
6
@3 I'm guessing Youth Pastor Watch, Archbishop edition, as I've yet to see a slogpost about that utterly damning letter from Archbishop Luciano Storero to the Catholic Church of Ireland ordering them in explicit terms not to report abuse accusations to the police.
8
@5: Congratulations! Learning how to eat healthy as an adult is tough. You have to completely retrain your stomach and your tastebuds.
9
Picking on gay children with uninformed ideas about how they got that way and the risks involved and spreading it through the media - wrong.
Picking on fat children with uninformed ideas about how they got that way and the risks involved and spreading it through the media - awesome.
Picking on fat children with uninformed ideas about how they got that way and the risks involved and spreading it through the media - awesome.
10
Why do I suspect that for "every time I read something about childhood obesity" we should read "every time the Google Alert I set up pings me that someone somewhere in the world has chimed in on the childhood obesity beat"?
11
I feel fucking awful for obese children, because it's not their fault, and they get the worst quasi suicide inducing teasing as kids. I was just a chubby kid, not obese, and I was suicidally depressed as an adolescent due to teasing
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Fat people need to learn to eat properly and exercise, but honestly, it's fucking expensive. ONE HEAD of broccoli costs $2 in ottawa. Grapes? $6. I can see how a happy meal is attractive. The government needs to encourage healthy eating with taxation of shit and subsidization of vegetables so that the poor can eat properly.
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Fat people need to learn to eat properly and exercise, but honestly, it's fucking expensive. ONE HEAD of broccoli costs $2 in ottawa. Grapes? $6. I can see how a happy meal is attractive. The government needs to encourage healthy eating with taxation of shit and subsidization of vegetables so that the poor can eat properly.
12
Dan, you have said nothing explicitly bad about "the fatties" as it were, in this post, but please, don't take your own issues with food and body size (that you've written about in the past) out here. I think you don't even realize this is what you're doing, but it's oozing out around the corners of every "obesity post" you run.
Also, you have such a platform and you could be such a help. Don't you realize how many people will read this and will take away, "Dan S. agrees with ME! It's SIMPLE! Stop eating so many donuts!" It's a complex problem that requires so much support to get over. Are you better informed about obesity than say, David Kessler, MD (pediatrician) and former FDA Commissioner who recently wrote an entire book about the complexity of this issue? Please, stop. You're not helping, and you are hurting.
Also, you have such a platform and you could be such a help. Don't you realize how many people will read this and will take away, "Dan S. agrees with ME! It's SIMPLE! Stop eating so many donuts!" It's a complex problem that requires so much support to get over. Are you better informed about obesity than say, David Kessler, MD (pediatrician) and former FDA Commissioner who recently wrote an entire book about the complexity of this issue? Please, stop. You're not helping, and you are hurting.
14
@9--you mean, picking on their dumbass parents. there's a huge difference. Gay kids are born that way. Fat kids are made that way by parents who have unhealthy relationships with food. There are very few exceptions.
15
@14 - You've inadvertently described *part* of the problem (family cycling of the issue) and why it's not so simple. Mean spirited ("dumbass") attacks DON'T HELP.
16
@ 14, no, I mean the kids. You know, the ones whose bodies are being criticized and made fun of and deemed wrong, gross, and unacceptable.
Like Dan and Tim (both of whom I like very much), you're making it really clear how little you understand about obesity, health issues, diet, genetics, and all of the ways in which those things do and don't intersect on a case-by-case basis. You do not know more about this than the leading medical specialists in the field, and acting like you do in order to have an excuse to shame children isn't okay.
Like Dan and Tim (both of whom I like very much), you're making it really clear how little you understand about obesity, health issues, diet, genetics, and all of the ways in which those things do and don't intersect on a case-by-case basis. You do not know more about this than the leading medical specialists in the field, and acting like you do in order to have an excuse to shame children isn't okay.
17
Adults have the choice to be fat, young children do not. The song is about the inherent child abuse of feeding your child shit food and not encouraging a healthy lifestyle. It isn't 'picking' on the kids but 'accusing' their parents of neglect and passing on their own issues to their kids.
18
@11 I am so tired of the 'vegetables are expensive' BS. Is that all you're eating, broccoli? How many servings are in a head of broccoli or a bunch of grapes? Are there starches, protein, etc. on your plate as well, that moderate the price per serving? And why do people always pick one of the more expensive vegetables when they use this argument? If you are on a budget, frozen vegetables are much less expensive than fresh, especially in winter, and while they may not be as wonderfully crisp as fresh, what is the choice, slightly less than 'al dente' vegetables, or McNuggets and fries? A healthy body or morbid obesity?
19
@16: While the "leading" experts pretty much know that while there are myriad intersecting factors that can influence the relative susceptibility of a person to obesity, and they may disagree about the degree of importance each lends to the overall picture, the universal and MUCH more significant factor is this: more calories in than out. Slight fluctuations in basal metabolic rate due to hormones and genetics do not force you to become 350 lbs. They might make the difference between being 320 vs 350 in an obese person or 140 and 150 in someone with a normal body condition, but they don't by any means account for the vast majority of obesity.
This song isn't making fun of the kids so much as it's mocking the lazy and thoughtless parents causing their child's obesity. And by the way, @9, obesity is a health problem that is generally preventable, as opposed to being a normal variation of human sexuality that is neither preventable nor inherently unhealthy.
I don't think making fun of fat kids is laudable at all; I was chubby, too. Making obesity sacrosanct (by whining when someone points out that feeding your kids crap is bad for them and makes them subject to mental, emotional, social, physical, and physiological hardships) isn't helping.
This song isn't making fun of the kids so much as it's mocking the lazy and thoughtless parents causing their child's obesity. And by the way, @9, obesity is a health problem that is generally preventable, as opposed to being a normal variation of human sexuality that is neither preventable nor inherently unhealthy.
I don't think making fun of fat kids is laudable at all; I was chubby, too. Making obesity sacrosanct (by whining when someone points out that feeding your kids crap is bad for them and makes them subject to mental, emotional, social, physical, and physiological hardships) isn't helping.
21
@17, pretty much everything you just said is ignorant and factually inaccurate.
The songs calls children names, compares them to Jabba the Hut, and says fat children will be dead before middle age because they ate too many fries, all for laughs.
It (and many other people like you, Dan, and Tim) never seems to be concerned about advocating healthy diet and exercise for all children, just the fat ones. It equates body size with health, a very dangerous idea that kills people. It behaves as though it's okay to judge people's bodies if you saw them eating something you didn't approve of this one time, because that means, since they're fat, you get to assume they eat that way all the time. It completely ignores how poverty contributes to obesity and pooh-poohs serious genetic and health problems that can cause obesity as one of many symptoms as some bullshit excuse, as though anyone is owed an excuse of any kind.
So A+, everyone. Way to keep these really ignorant and harmful ideas going so you can have a virtuous excuse to shame children.
The songs calls children names, compares them to Jabba the Hut, and says fat children will be dead before middle age because they ate too many fries, all for laughs.
It (and many other people like you, Dan, and Tim) never seems to be concerned about advocating healthy diet and exercise for all children, just the fat ones. It equates body size with health, a very dangerous idea that kills people. It behaves as though it's okay to judge people's bodies if you saw them eating something you didn't approve of this one time, because that means, since they're fat, you get to assume they eat that way all the time. It completely ignores how poverty contributes to obesity and pooh-poohs serious genetic and health problems that can cause obesity as one of many symptoms as some bullshit excuse, as though anyone is owed an excuse of any kind.
So A+, everyone. Way to keep these really ignorant and harmful ideas going so you can have a virtuous excuse to shame children.
22
@ 19, if you still think that weight is universally determined by calories in vs. calories out and that health issues only cause a 6% body weight differential, then I think you need to re-read all of that material because some really basic facts have either been distorted or never sank in in the first place. Please also re-listen to the song if you don't think it makes fun of children.
But see, even if we go by your totally incorrect idea of what universally causes obesity and ignore that bad diet and many serious health problems it coincides with are also an issue for thin children (among other fatal health problems specific to thin children that go undiagnosed because they weren't fat so they must be healthy, right?), obese children are no more responsible for their obesity than a gay child is for their homosexuality. Furthermore, it's no more appropriate to say that "letting" your kid be fat will kill them of a heart attack before thirty (for laughs, no less) than it is to say that "letting" your kid be gay will kill them before 30 of AIDS. Both are completely false, ignorant, and hateful.
But see, even if we go by your totally incorrect idea of what universally causes obesity and ignore that bad diet and many serious health problems it coincides with are also an issue for thin children (among other fatal health problems specific to thin children that go undiagnosed because they weren't fat so they must be healthy, right?), obese children are no more responsible for their obesity than a gay child is for their homosexuality. Furthermore, it's no more appropriate to say that "letting" your kid be fat will kill them of a heart attack before thirty (for laughs, no less) than it is to say that "letting" your kid be gay will kill them before 30 of AIDS. Both are completely false, ignorant, and hateful.
23
@17 - Ask yourself why parents might be feeding their kids like this. Do they live in a food desert where fresh fruits and veggies pretty much aren't available? Living in Seattle, it might be hard to imagine, but this is *quite a common problem* and not just in urban areas - rural areas, too. http://www.fooddesert.net/
Is the household extremely poor? Do you they have enough money to last through the entire month? During the last week of the month are they eating mac and cheese simply because it's at the very least filling?
Do Pepsi and Coke have vending machines in the kids schools, where they are encouraged to "Buy a pop to support their team"?
All of these small things add up to extra pounds quite quickly and I'd say it's far more likely scenario than the song's assumption of a parent not caring and just giving the kid three Krispy Kremes for breakfast or something.
**Please understand this "Three Krispy Kremes for my kids for breakfast and I don't care!" assumption as another way we demonize fat people. Boy are THEY stoopid!***
I know we want it to be simple, but people don't just one day choose to be fat any more than they choose to be gay. It's not that simple or easy, and the people most knowledgeable about obesity see it this way these days too. (See: http://www.amazon.com/End-Overeating-Ins…)
Is the household extremely poor? Do you they have enough money to last through the entire month? During the last week of the month are they eating mac and cheese simply because it's at the very least filling?
Do Pepsi and Coke have vending machines in the kids schools, where they are encouraged to "Buy a pop to support their team"?
All of these small things add up to extra pounds quite quickly and I'd say it's far more likely scenario than the song's assumption of a parent not caring and just giving the kid three Krispy Kremes for breakfast or something.
**Please understand this "Three Krispy Kremes for my kids for breakfast and I don't care!" assumption as another way we demonize fat people. Boy are THEY stoopid!***
I know we want it to be simple, but people don't just one day choose to be fat any more than they choose to be gay. It's not that simple or easy, and the people most knowledgeable about obesity see it this way these days too. (See: http://www.amazon.com/End-Overeating-Ins…)
24
@19,
What the fuck is wrong with you? Even DAN admits that the song is bullying (but he's perfectly okay with it, because FATTIES!!! lol), and you're making excuses? Fuck you.
What the fuck is wrong with you? Even DAN admits that the song is bullying (but he's perfectly okay with it, because FATTIES!!! lol), and you're making excuses? Fuck you.
25
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Skinny-Pe…
A team has scanned since 1994 about 800 people with MRI machines to build "fat maps" revealing where people deposit the fat. People who maintain their profile just through diet rather than exercise were found to possess higher deposits of internal fat, even if slim. "The whole concept of being fat needs to be redefined," said Bell.
Lacking a warning signal like swollen belly, thin people may be deceived by the idea that because they're not overweight, their health is strong. "Just because someone is lean doesn't make them immune to diabetes or other risk factors for heart disease," said Dr. Louis Teichholz, chief of cardiology at Hackensack Hospital in New Jersey.
Bell's team discovered that even people with normal Body Mass Index (BMI) have surprisingly high levels of fat tissue: up to 45 % of the women with normal BMI scores had excessive levels of internal fat, while for men the number rose to about 60 %. These people have a too abundant diet in fat and sugars without exercising: they just do not eat enough to be fat. Many experts still regard normal values of BMI as an indicator of good health. But many doctors believe the internal fat is increasing the risk of heart disease and diabetes.
*Indeed, experts have long known that fat but active people can be healthier than the skinny ones.*
tl;dr version: people who don't exercise are at risk for heart disease, diabetes, etc. Whether they happen to be fat or thin.
A team has scanned since 1994 about 800 people with MRI machines to build "fat maps" revealing where people deposit the fat. People who maintain their profile just through diet rather than exercise were found to possess higher deposits of internal fat, even if slim. "The whole concept of being fat needs to be redefined," said Bell.
Lacking a warning signal like swollen belly, thin people may be deceived by the idea that because they're not overweight, their health is strong. "Just because someone is lean doesn't make them immune to diabetes or other risk factors for heart disease," said Dr. Louis Teichholz, chief of cardiology at Hackensack Hospital in New Jersey.
Bell's team discovered that even people with normal Body Mass Index (BMI) have surprisingly high levels of fat tissue: up to 45 % of the women with normal BMI scores had excessive levels of internal fat, while for men the number rose to about 60 %. These people have a too abundant diet in fat and sugars without exercising: they just do not eat enough to be fat. Many experts still regard normal values of BMI as an indicator of good health. But many doctors believe the internal fat is increasing the risk of heart disease and diabetes.
*Indeed, experts have long known that fat but active people can be healthier than the skinny ones.*
tl;dr version: people who don't exercise are at risk for heart disease, diabetes, etc. Whether they happen to be fat or thin.
26
Additionally, even people who make fun of fatties say that there are exceptions because there ARE health conditions that cause obesity. If you grant this, then why would you ever make fun of a fat person? You have no way to know whether a particular fat person was lazy or just unlucky.
Fat looks fucking identical from the outside, whether it was caused by too many milkshakes or PCOS.
Fat looks fucking identical from the outside, whether it was caused by too many milkshakes or PCOS.
27
@18 - In a food desert, fruits and vegetables are often not even available at all, or are available at a very high cost and are probably not really fresh at all. This is a very common issue in many parts of the country. http://www.fooddesert.net/
28
@25 Exactly. I was just about to respond to @2 and tell him that I blame my skinniness on genetics and no one questions me. they conflate skinny with healthy.
29
Stretching an idea to its comic extreme is a staple of Tim Minchin, and he regularly fosters interesting dialog, so thank you, Tim!
The "take away" is not the outrageous but the subtext: Parents, PAY ATTENTION. What you do has an enormous effect on your children.
The "take away" is not the outrageous but the subtext: Parents, PAY ATTENTION. What you do has an enormous effect on your children.
30
It's heartening to see how many commenters here know this is fucking bullshit. Anyone who thinks obesity has everything to do with stupidity and willpower and nothing to do with poverty and genetics is just willfully (at this point) ignorant.
Furthermore, parents shouldn't be stuffing their kids with doughnuts regardless of their weight. Nor should they be denying them all fatty treats entirely, as that essentially fetishizes them (which has happened to me with pasta--thanks carb-free mom!). And yes, this is fucking bullying, and it trickles down to anyone who's a little heavier than the ideal, so don't pretend it's out of concern.
Furthermore, parents shouldn't be stuffing their kids with doughnuts regardless of their weight. Nor should they be denying them all fatty treats entirely, as that essentially fetishizes them (which has happened to me with pasta--thanks carb-free mom!). And yes, this is fucking bullying, and it trickles down to anyone who's a little heavier than the ideal, so don't pretend it's out of concern.
31
Yep- another fat-rant from Dan, who is paranoid about becoming obese- most queers are. I agree with the Tim Minchin schtick, always having thought that glandular conditions are mostly in the elbow gland...
However, watching my obese MIL die of cancer gave me another viewpoint that I can't get rid of. She was 100+lbs overweight, but did not eat anything the last 3-4 months of her life. Nothing, and with cancer eating her alive the whole while. Yet she never lost a pound that I could tell, and was as big as always the day she died. It made me wonder if she *ever* ate all the stuff in secret that we thought she did, tho never saw happening. How can anyone live without food for 3-4 months and not lose weight? Has to be a metabolic thing.
Then there's my own experience with meds changing my metabolism...yikes!
I am now inclined to be less snobby about weight issues in others.
However, watching my obese MIL die of cancer gave me another viewpoint that I can't get rid of. She was 100+lbs overweight, but did not eat anything the last 3-4 months of her life. Nothing, and with cancer eating her alive the whole while. Yet she never lost a pound that I could tell, and was as big as always the day she died. It made me wonder if she *ever* ate all the stuff in secret that we thought she did, tho never saw happening. How can anyone live without food for 3-4 months and not lose weight? Has to be a metabolic thing.
Then there's my own experience with meds changing my metabolism...yikes!
I am now inclined to be less snobby about weight issues in others.
32
@3: Sometimes I think his pitbull thing is just satire, since it's the same one-sided hackery of which he accuses most marijuana-related articles. Or rather I hope that it is.
@10: Nailed it.
@10: Nailed it.
33
@29 -But what has extreme speech brought us to these days? It brought the Arizona tragedy - and that's NOT a stretch.
We need more thoughtful writers, like Ta Nehisi Coates over these guys - meaning Minchin and even our dear Dan about 50% of the time. This kind of speech is old, dangerous, and needs to stop.
We need more thoughtful writers, like Ta Nehisi Coates over these guys - meaning Minchin and even our dear Dan about 50% of the time. This kind of speech is old, dangerous, and needs to stop.
34
For anyone, Tim and Dan included, who is genuinely concerned with the wellbeing of fat kids rather than looking for an excuse to bully them:
"A study at the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey found that obese girls ages 13 to 14 are four times more likely to experience low self-esteem than non-obese girls.
The study also reported that obese boys and girls with low self-esteem had higher rates of loneliness, sadness and nervousness. These children were more likely to smoke and drink alcohol compared with obese children with normal self-esteem. Depression, often an outcome of low self-esteem, affects as many as 750,000 teens in the U.S. (Source: Pediatrics, "Childhood Obesity and Self-Esteem," January 2000.)
A recent University of Minnesota study reveals that children who were teased about being overweight were more likely to have poor body image, low self-esteem, and symptoms of depression. The study found that 26 percent of teens who were teased at school and home reported they had considered suicide, and 9 percent had attempted it. Suicide is the third leading cause of death among adolescents. (Source: Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine, "Associations of Weight-Based Teasing and Emotional Well-being Among Adolescents," August 2003)"
Hmm, a group of young people being teased and mistreated at school and at home being more likely to be suicidal, depressed, and abuse drugs and alcohol...what does this sound just like?
"A study at the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey found that obese girls ages 13 to 14 are four times more likely to experience low self-esteem than non-obese girls.
The study also reported that obese boys and girls with low self-esteem had higher rates of loneliness, sadness and nervousness. These children were more likely to smoke and drink alcohol compared with obese children with normal self-esteem. Depression, often an outcome of low self-esteem, affects as many as 750,000 teens in the U.S. (Source: Pediatrics, "Childhood Obesity and Self-Esteem," January 2000.)
A recent University of Minnesota study reveals that children who were teased about being overweight were more likely to have poor body image, low self-esteem, and symptoms of depression. The study found that 26 percent of teens who were teased at school and home reported they had considered suicide, and 9 percent had attempted it. Suicide is the third leading cause of death among adolescents. (Source: Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine, "Associations of Weight-Based Teasing and Emotional Well-being Among Adolescents," August 2003)"
Hmm, a group of young people being teased and mistreated at school and at home being more likely to be suicidal, depressed, and abuse drugs and alcohol...what does this sound just like?
36
@18: There's also the question of time. Making food from fresh ingredients takes a lot longer than heating up something processed, or getting something at the drive-through. When it comes to food you can probably pick, at best, two out of three: quick, cheap, healthy. Working-class folks -- especially parents -- trying to make ends meet on low wages and multiple jobs have less money and less time than, probably, most folks who have time to comment on Slog.
If you want to help low-income kids get better nutrition, consider spending less time being snarky on Slog and more time supporting unions, living wages, and a decent social safety net. (I suppose I should try to take my own advice, at that.)
If you want to help low-income kids get better nutrition, consider spending less time being snarky on Slog and more time supporting unions, living wages, and a decent social safety net. (I suppose I should try to take my own advice, at that.)
37
I've never understood the veggies==expensive thing. That's how I saved money in college -- I went vegetarian and forewent the expensive MEAT.
Now. That said, I suspect the problem is more about COOKING. Who the hell knows how to cook anymore? So cue the prepared, processed food industry, and bear in mind that over the years, the ever increasing amount of sugar (HFCS) and other additives have pretty much guaranteed that anyone whose diet is comprised solely or mostly of preprocessed food is in a huge amount of trouble.
Cook & prepare your own food -- may take some more time and may have a learning curve at the onset, but there are easy recipes for almost anything to get started on and practice will make easier. Honestly, most times I take less than 30 minutes to put a meal together. And you'll see the results. You won't even have to diet -- just eat like this and do a lot of walking and it will just happen.
(My downfall tends to be eating out with friends. Sigh.)
As far as the teasing and bullying of fat kids, I can only imagine. I remember how merciless we were in 3rd grade toward the one fat kid in the class. And when I look at kids these days, I see many more fat kids, WAY more fat than he was. It amazes me, the difference I see these days. We were so cruel to the fat kids back then, I almost can't decide if the teasing is worse these days, or if there's more acceptance of moderately fat kids (could even be both are true).
Now. That said, I suspect the problem is more about COOKING. Who the hell knows how to cook anymore? So cue the prepared, processed food industry, and bear in mind that over the years, the ever increasing amount of sugar (HFCS) and other additives have pretty much guaranteed that anyone whose diet is comprised solely or mostly of preprocessed food is in a huge amount of trouble.
Cook & prepare your own food -- may take some more time and may have a learning curve at the onset, but there are easy recipes for almost anything to get started on and practice will make easier. Honestly, most times I take less than 30 minutes to put a meal together. And you'll see the results. You won't even have to diet -- just eat like this and do a lot of walking and it will just happen.
(My downfall tends to be eating out with friends. Sigh.)
As far as the teasing and bullying of fat kids, I can only imagine. I remember how merciless we were in 3rd grade toward the one fat kid in the class. And when I look at kids these days, I see many more fat kids, WAY more fat than he was. It amazes me, the difference I see these days. We were so cruel to the fat kids back then, I almost can't decide if the teasing is worse these days, or if there's more acceptance of moderately fat kids (could even be both are true).
38
Through lifestyle changes an overweight person can become thinner but a gay person can never become more straight...don't ever conflate the two, it's just ignorant. Fat people put out these canards because it's just easier for them to blame something other than the obvious. Being overweight is definitely made simple in our society, but so what...an obese kid is an abused kid, and it's something that can be avoided.
39
@18 The problem with this line of thinking is there are not two types of bodies - Morbidly obese vs healthy (skinny) bodies. There are many different shapes and sizes and people who eat healthy and work out excessively are still called "fat."
Yes, there are many issues in our country today about food availability, accessibility, and quality, but body shaming does not address them.
Yes, there are many issues in our country today about food availability, accessibility, and quality, but body shaming does not address them.
40
I'd also very much enjoy a cautionary musical tale addressing steps a parent might take to ensure their red-headed children don't attempt dreadlocks.
41
@38 - It's no canard. It's certainly not a perfect analogy, but it works. You're right in that a fat person can become thinner - but it's only for a time, but as I'm sure you've heard: 95% of people who lose weight gain it all back and then some within five years (this *includes* those on "sensible" diets like Weight Watchers.)
Perhaps you would not be so afraid of gay being "conflated" with fat if fat-shaming wasn't so prevalent in our culture and the cost of being considered fat weren't so high.
Anyhow, be someone who creates a culture where people who are having difficulty feeding their children well can do so. People want to raise their children well. Calling people who are having difficulty doing so "abusive" is not the answer.
Perhaps you would not be so afraid of gay being "conflated" with fat if fat-shaming wasn't so prevalent in our culture and the cost of being considered fat weren't so high.
Anyhow, be someone who creates a culture where people who are having difficulty feeding their children well can do so. People want to raise their children well. Calling people who are having difficulty doing so "abusive" is not the answer.
42
@38 - Also wanted to add: We don't treat gay people properly because "they were born that way and can't help themselves." We do it (or should do it) because they are human and it's the right damn thing to do. Same goes for all humans. Even *gasp!* the F A T ones.
43
@38 Then I guess there's no problem that all these overweight kids want to fucking kill themselves! They deserve it, amirite? So mock them as mercilessly as you want, cuz it's not as innate as being gay!
44
@31 Your MIL probably had ascites, a retention of fluid in the abdomen which is a frequent symptom of end stage cancer. The person often looks like they are maintaining or even gaining weight, even though their body is actually wasting away.
45
Amazonvera and Rach3l bring up good points, overweight does not equal overall poor health, and "normal" weight doesn't mean healthy. It's an important point, and deserves attention; however, the song - the satirical and intentionally offensive humorous song - is talking about a very specific issue: parents who feed their kids large amounts of crappy food in the face of childhood obesity. Obesity is, in general, not good for you. It's really, really not good for kids. Parents are responsible for their children's health: they should feed them moderate amounts of nutritious food, exercise with them, take them to the doctor when they are sick, vaccinate for reasonable diseases, and have them wash their hands after using the bathroom.
Yes, many of these things are harder to do on a limited budget. It doesn't mean that the children should be fed crap and allowed to become obese (or, conversely, to not eat and be anorectic). Of course you can be thin and unhealthy, but that's not what this song is about, and pointing out the existence of unhealthy thin people doesn't help kids be healthier. There are oodles of ways to be unhealthy, but ONE of them is being fed lots of crappy food and becoming obese.
Yes, many of these things are harder to do on a limited budget. It doesn't mean that the children should be fed crap and allowed to become obese (or, conversely, to not eat and be anorectic). Of course you can be thin and unhealthy, but that's not what this song is about, and pointing out the existence of unhealthy thin people doesn't help kids be healthier. There are oodles of ways to be unhealthy, but ONE of them is being fed lots of crappy food and becoming obese.
46
@ 45, the song is about insulting fat children for laughs, people using medical issues, genetics, and social issues like poverty as lame excuses, and how feeding children poorly is a bad idea...if they're fat. Oh, and how anyone who is seen giving their child junk food must feed them that way all the time and it's making them fat and it's going to kill them in early adulthood.
Sorry, I like Tim a lot, but pretty much the entire content of the song is ignorant, bullying crap.
Sorry, I like Tim a lot, but pretty much the entire content of the song is ignorant, bullying crap.
47
As always, I enjoyed the Minchin post, Dan! Keep 'em coming.
As for amazonvera and rach31--I'm a fat guy, and it is my own damned fault. Sure, both my folks have carried extra pounds for most of their adult lives, so there may be some genetic predisposition involved, but my obesity is clearly the result of too many calories and too much couch time. The same is true for the overwhelming majority of fatties. Not all fatties, I concede--but the overwhelming majority. Your defensiveness screams to me of two fat chicks who refuse to believe their own behavior is the primary cause of their obesity.
Accepting personal responsibility is less fun than madly rationalizing, but it is ultimately more useful and truthful than any of the alternatives.
As for amazonvera and rach31--I'm a fat guy, and it is my own damned fault. Sure, both my folks have carried extra pounds for most of their adult lives, so there may be some genetic predisposition involved, but my obesity is clearly the result of too many calories and too much couch time. The same is true for the overwhelming majority of fatties. Not all fatties, I concede--but the overwhelming majority. Your defensiveness screams to me of two fat chicks who refuse to believe their own behavior is the primary cause of their obesity.
Accepting personal responsibility is less fun than madly rationalizing, but it is ultimately more useful and truthful than any of the alternatives.
48
Classy, 47. I'm not obese, though I was once briefly when my thyroid medication got fucked up and my weight went up 33% before they finally decided to cut my head open and remove my brain tumor. I also have two close friends who almost died from undiagnosed illnesses because they were thin, so surely one couldn't have had type 2 diabetes due to poor diet, and the other was just lucky that she ate a lot but staid very thin...until she had to be rushed to the hospital with near heart failure to have her entire thyroid removed.
Fat does not equal unhealthy, thin does not equal healthy, and neither body type is dictated by either poor or virtuous eating. Ideas to the contrary literally kill people, aside from just being shitty and ignorant.
Fat does not equal unhealthy, thin does not equal healthy, and neither body type is dictated by either poor or virtuous eating. Ideas to the contrary literally kill people, aside from just being shitty and ignorant.
49
@46, Do you think that people who feed their children too much crap are not a major problem in causing childhood obesity?
Do you really believe that food intake amount, which is limitable, is overshadowed by medical and genetic factors as the primary cause of obesity?
Do you think that parents of obese children are usually making healthy choices for their children?
I understand that weight is a complex social and scientific issue, and that it's inaccurate to assume "anyone who is seen giving their child junk food must feed them that way all the time". As people, though, we see patterns and draw conclusions: a parent giving an obese child junk food is likely to have consistently poor feeding habits for their children. That's prejudice! It's discrimination! It's also a logical conclusion that is reasonable under the circumstances and is really only problematic if it doesn't change when new information is available.
Do you really believe that food intake amount, which is limitable, is overshadowed by medical and genetic factors as the primary cause of obesity?
Do you think that parents of obese children are usually making healthy choices for their children?
I understand that weight is a complex social and scientific issue, and that it's inaccurate to assume "anyone who is seen giving their child junk food must feed them that way all the time". As people, though, we see patterns and draw conclusions: a parent giving an obese child junk food is likely to have consistently poor feeding habits for their children. That's prejudice! It's discrimination! It's also a logical conclusion that is reasonable under the circumstances and is really only problematic if it doesn't change when new information is available.
50
@ 49, I know that eating badly is bad for the health of all children and all people, and that health problems that can be contributed to by bad diet affect both fat and thin people. I also understand that when I'm looking at an individual fat or thin person, I have no idea if they're healthy or not, what their health does or doesn't have to do with their weight, how they eat, or how they got to be fat or thin, and it's really not my business anyway.
51
@amazonvera You use the overuse word "ignorant" to avoid having to face opposing views. If you have all the answers what the hell are you doing here? Go to Washington and solve it....I thought not.
Yes, the song makes some harsh, offensive, (and funny) jokes but the target of the song isn't kids but the adults who are mistreating them. Unless you want to argue that this song was written for kids' ears?
The topic here is childhood obesity so throwing up the smoke screen that we don't worry about "all children" is silly. It's just not what is being discussed. Nobody is equating body-size with health, just body composition. Obesity is a measure of the % of fat.
If I see someone hitting their kid, I'm supposed to step in. But if I see someone biggie-sizing their eight-year-old's meal that's "off limits" and shouldn't even be discussed as "bad"? Right. Even if that kid is skinny as a rail, that amount of crap-food is just not appropriate, ever.
My problem with your argument is that you want to conflate factors that affect a small percentage of people into excuses for society to do nothing; basically continue with the status-quo of hand-wringing and tip-toeing around.
Yes, the song makes some harsh, offensive, (and funny) jokes but the target of the song isn't kids but the adults who are mistreating them. Unless you want to argue that this song was written for kids' ears?
The topic here is childhood obesity so throwing up the smoke screen that we don't worry about "all children" is silly. It's just not what is being discussed. Nobody is equating body-size with health, just body composition. Obesity is a measure of the % of fat.
If I see someone hitting their kid, I'm supposed to step in. But if I see someone biggie-sizing their eight-year-old's meal that's "off limits" and shouldn't even be discussed as "bad"? Right. Even if that kid is skinny as a rail, that amount of crap-food is just not appropriate, ever.
My problem with your argument is that you want to conflate factors that affect a small percentage of people into excuses for society to do nothing; basically continue with the status-quo of hand-wringing and tip-toeing around.
52
@50, I appreciate that you did not claim that the conclusion I made (a parent giving an obese child junk food is likely to have consistently poor feeding habits for their children) was illogical, thank you. I also appreciate that while you state that it's "not [your] business", you don't assert that I should butt out and not make those conclusions (even if that's how you feel). This is a very emotional issue, so the civility is appreciated even if, especially if, we have such differing opinions.
I would point out that no one is saying that fat equals unhealthy, they are saying that obesity (rather than just overweight), especially in children, can be detrimental to health. Equally no one is saying thin is healthy, not even close. No one is saying that a body type is "dictated by eating habits", though many of us are saying that overeating can and does cause obesity. No one is claiming it's the only factor, but it is a major factor for most obese people. Just because obesity has multiple factors, one cannot assume that all factors are equally significant.
I would point out that no one is saying that fat equals unhealthy, they are saying that obesity (rather than just overweight), especially in children, can be detrimental to health. Equally no one is saying thin is healthy, not even close. No one is saying that a body type is "dictated by eating habits", though many of us are saying that overeating can and does cause obesity. No one is claiming it's the only factor, but it is a major factor for most obese people. Just because obesity has multiple factors, one cannot assume that all factors are equally significant.
53
I'm sorry, debug, are you under the impression that he compared the parents of fat children to Jabba the Hut eating candy bars out of their fat rolls and dying in early adulthood? If you think the song is funny, you're not alone, but you trying to pretend it doesn't insult and degrade fat children is ludicrous.
A happy meal doesn't harm a kid. A doughnut doesn't harm a kid (unless they have celiac's disease or something, but that's a separate issue). When you see what someone feeds their child once in a public place, you have no idea, fat or thin, what that child's regular diet is like. So sure, you could jump in and indignantly smack the french fries out of the parent's hand and berate them for abusing their child in public, and you could do the same to smokers, people drinking alcohol, and sunbathers (I'm still waiting for the outraged shame campaign about parents who don't protect their kids from UV rays from these same people SO concerned about children's health, and yet it mysteriously never appears). Or, we could be reasonable people who see that that's illogical and impractical, not to mention illegal, and try instead to find ways to discourage those behaviors and address the root causes the contribute to them, like poverty, poor education, and a lack of access to healthcare.
Society shouldn't "do nothing." Society should take steps to encourage healthy diet and activity for all children, since all children can be affected by the problems that poor diet and low activity cause. Ignorantly (and yes, given all the information we have, it is ignorant) focusing on obesity instead puts inappropriate focus on many healthy, active kids with good diets (because god knows all the teasing, bullying, and body shame haven't already taught them that their bodies are disgusting) and leaves unhealthy, inactive thin kids with crap diets without the help that they need.
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A happy meal doesn't harm a kid. A doughnut doesn't harm a kid (unless they have celiac's disease or something, but that's a separate issue). When you see what someone feeds their child once in a public place, you have no idea, fat or thin, what that child's regular diet is like. So sure, you could jump in and indignantly smack the french fries out of the parent's hand and berate them for abusing their child in public, and you could do the same to smokers, people drinking alcohol, and sunbathers (I'm still waiting for the outraged shame campaign about parents who don't protect their kids from UV rays from these same people SO concerned about children's health, and yet it mysteriously never appears). Or, we could be reasonable people who see that that's illogical and impractical, not to mention illegal, and try instead to find ways to discourage those behaviors and address the root causes the contribute to them, like poverty, poor education, and a lack of access to healthcare.
Society shouldn't "do nothing." Society should take steps to encourage healthy diet and activity for all children, since all children can be affected by the problems that poor diet and low activity cause. Ignorantly (and yes, given all the information we have, it is ignorant) focusing on obesity instead puts inappropriate focus on many healthy, active kids with good diets (because god knows all the teasing, bullying, and body shame haven't already taught them that their bodies are disgusting) and leaves unhealthy, inactive thin kids with crap diets without the help that they need.
54
@ 52, that still doesn't explain why it's your business or what place health concerns have in a discussion about fat people when health and weight are independent concepts. And if you think people aren't saying all of those things you claim no one is saying, I'd re-read this thread, listen to the song again, and take a closer look at Dan's posts about this issue.
And for the record, the idea that a parent who gives a child junk food is routinely feeding them badly IS illogical, whether the child is fat or thin, that's just wasn't the issue in your comment that was of most concern to me. Sorry to disappoint. Almost all children are given some kind of "junk food" now and then, but not all children, fat or thin, are fed badly. My grandmother was a public health nurse specializing in nutrition and whole food, but we'd get a happy meal now and then and candy on holidays and occasional doughnuts on a Sunday morning, because she was well aware that tasty junk in moderation wasn't going to harm us when balanced with a regular healthy diet.
And for the record, the idea that a parent who gives a child junk food is routinely feeding them badly IS illogical, whether the child is fat or thin, that's just wasn't the issue in your comment that was of most concern to me. Sorry to disappoint. Almost all children are given some kind of "junk food" now and then, but not all children, fat or thin, are fed badly. My grandmother was a public health nurse specializing in nutrition and whole food, but we'd get a happy meal now and then and candy on holidays and occasional doughnuts on a Sunday morning, because she was well aware that tasty junk in moderation wasn't going to harm us when balanced with a regular healthy diet.
55
#53.
He didn't say "happy meal." He said "biggie-size."
And a happy meal does, in fact, harm whoever's eating it, but especially kids. That you don't know that, makes everything else you're writing about this topic not worth reading.
A happy meal doesn't harm a kid.
He didn't say "happy meal." He said "biggie-size."
And a happy meal does, in fact, harm whoever's eating it, but especially kids. That you don't know that, makes everything else you're writing about this topic not worth reading.
56
@55 he also didn't say doughnut or french fries. They're all examples of junk food.
Happy meals are crap and they're certainly not good for you, but no, one happy meal (or a doughnut, or french fries) doesn't cause anyone bodily harm unless they have some kind of specific disorder, which I mentioned. It's food (though barely), not poison.
Happy meals are crap and they're certainly not good for you, but no, one happy meal (or a doughnut, or french fries) doesn't cause anyone bodily harm unless they have some kind of specific disorder, which I mentioned. It's food (though barely), not poison.
58
No, I'd assume that the vast majority of parents in America have bought their kids fast food on more than one occasion. Even my friend who's raising her kids vegetarian and organic gives her kids fast food now and again on road trips. That doesn't make it a regular or relatively frequent part of anyone's diet, which is what would make it harmful.
59
Then if you assume that, the example of "one happy meal" shouldn't be part of your argument.
And you're wrong that Happy Meals are only harmful if eaten frequently. And so is your vegetarian friend.
And you're wrong that Happy Meals are only harmful if eaten frequently. And so is your vegetarian friend.
60
lolllolollolll
I come from a family of fatties. I was a fatty. I weighed 200lbs in high school. My parents are fat, the women of my extended family are fat. Vegetables were a scarcity. Fast food for my single (and then married to a Navy dude) mother was an easy answer.
I struggle with weight. I may not get to eat as much as I want to (oh god, do I want to) but I can eat a lot if I pick the right foods. I eat every two hours between 200 and 300 calories. It ensure I actually feel hungry right before snacks, otherwise I never feel hungry, I only want to eat.
I have to steer clear of anything sugary or fatty because I can literally eat an entire large pizza (Pagaliacci sized) or a whole cake in one sitting (it makes me terribly ill). When I do eat those things I do so when I am with other people who do not have a problem because it is an addiction and I have no control. I lost 25lbs and have maintained the weight I am at for over six years now (sometimes I am less even).
Genetics, I think, play a large part in what kind of foods you desire and how much food you desire and what how crappy your metabolism is and then poor eating habits only help to uphold and progress that unhealthy base but anyone who acts like people cannot help themselves because of their genetics need to get a grip.
They can. They just need to admit they have a problem and question why they have that problem. They have Overeaters Anonymous for a reason, you know.
I come from a family of fatties. I was a fatty. I weighed 200lbs in high school. My parents are fat, the women of my extended family are fat. Vegetables were a scarcity. Fast food for my single (and then married to a Navy dude) mother was an easy answer.
I struggle with weight. I may not get to eat as much as I want to (oh god, do I want to) but I can eat a lot if I pick the right foods. I eat every two hours between 200 and 300 calories. It ensure I actually feel hungry right before snacks, otherwise I never feel hungry, I only want to eat.
I have to steer clear of anything sugary or fatty because I can literally eat an entire large pizza (Pagaliacci sized) or a whole cake in one sitting (it makes me terribly ill). When I do eat those things I do so when I am with other people who do not have a problem because it is an addiction and I have no control. I lost 25lbs and have maintained the weight I am at for over six years now (sometimes I am less even).
Genetics, I think, play a large part in what kind of foods you desire and how much food you desire and what how crappy your metabolism is and then poor eating habits only help to uphold and progress that unhealthy base but anyone who acts like people cannot help themselves because of their genetics need to get a grip.
They can. They just need to admit they have a problem and question why they have that problem. They have Overeaters Anonymous for a reason, you know.
61
My vegetarian friend doesn't give her kid happy meals (you are aware that those have meat in them, right?), and "one" doesn't mean "one ever in your life." It refers in this case to once being as many times as you see a stranger with their kid having one, fat or thin, and gives you zero idea of what their regular diet is like.
62
Interestingly, I sat and ate the same meal as someone else today...well, mostly. I had whole grain bread and she had white. I drank unsweetened iced tea and she had regular soda. Later, I sat in the break room with her while she had some pretzels and I had some black coffee. Then, having our first halfway-decent weather day in a while, I walked home (1.7 miles) and parted ways with her at the Metro (.2 miles of that walk). Tomorrow, I will skip happy hour and go to dance class, while she's all in for some beer pong. I'm going to venture a guess she weighs about 40 lbs. less than me (about the same height, she might be an inch shorter than me; she's 2 years younger than me, but that doesn't mean much when you're both late 20's...yes, she's really, really freaking skinny, and so many people really love that).
In a few weeks, I get to go spend some time with my brother (less than 2 years younger). I'll eat half of what he does, and walk up to the grocery store to buy some nice stuff for my "thanks for the guest room" meal, while he drives to the DQ 4 blocks away for an after-dinner treat. I'm sure that his weight being the same as mine when he's 6" taller than me is all because I'm a hog. I'm sure that his weighing less than me as a kid had to do with the fact that my mom fed him so much healthier foods than she did me...oh, and the fact that he did FEWER sports and athletic activities than I did. I'm sure the fact that my mom, who gives me the 4-year-old face when I serve her vegetables in my home, is thinner than I am is because the donuts and McDonald's she eats like it's her job are just an optical illusion worthy of David Copperfield. I'm sure that my fat grandmother snuck lots of treats that didn't exist in her home (this was the woman who would force veggies down my throat by stuffing them in my mouth and holding my nose). Even though she couldn't drive, I'm sure that she snuck off to the store and bought tons of crap when no one was watching (leaving me at home alone at 4 or 5).
And I'm not even obese. But I work my ASS off to be just ever-so-slightly overweight. Parents should stop feeding their kids large amounts of sugary and fatty crap, but not everyone can be Natalie Portman a la Black Swan. I am appalled when I see people at the grocery store buying carts full of sugary drinks and processed foods, but even the healthiest diet and plenty of exercise can't always override genetics that add a little plump to your gut or thighs or bottom. Venus de Milo would be considered fat in our culture.
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In a few weeks, I get to go spend some time with my brother (less than 2 years younger). I'll eat half of what he does, and walk up to the grocery store to buy some nice stuff for my "thanks for the guest room" meal, while he drives to the DQ 4 blocks away for an after-dinner treat. I'm sure that his weight being the same as mine when he's 6" taller than me is all because I'm a hog. I'm sure that his weighing less than me as a kid had to do with the fact that my mom fed him so much healthier foods than she did me...oh, and the fact that he did FEWER sports and athletic activities than I did. I'm sure the fact that my mom, who gives me the 4-year-old face when I serve her vegetables in my home, is thinner than I am is because the donuts and McDonald's she eats like it's her job are just an optical illusion worthy of David Copperfield. I'm sure that my fat grandmother snuck lots of treats that didn't exist in her home (this was the woman who would force veggies down my throat by stuffing them in my mouth and holding my nose). Even though she couldn't drive, I'm sure that she snuck off to the store and bought tons of crap when no one was watching (leaving me at home alone at 4 or 5).
And I'm not even obese. But I work my ASS off to be just ever-so-slightly overweight. Parents should stop feeding their kids large amounts of sugary and fatty crap, but not everyone can be Natalie Portman a la Black Swan. I am appalled when I see people at the grocery store buying carts full of sugary drinks and processed foods, but even the healthiest diet and plenty of exercise can't always override genetics that add a little plump to your gut or thighs or bottom. Venus de Milo would be considered fat in our culture.
63
amazonvera: I've conceded the song made it's point in an offensively funny way. It's obvious (to most) that it isn't meant to be played for young kids, which is why it doesn't "bully" them. You're like a politician making arguments about what is "offensive and appropriate" without taking into account context, intent, and audience.
What is your point about a single happy meal? The hypothetical obese kid could be eating an apple in a grocery store and we'd still be able to logically deduce that he's being brought up with inappropriate eating/exercise habits.
I don't think it is right to use junk food as a "special treat" for kids who are obese any more than I think the occasional drink is a fine reward for an alcoholic.
Awarding with a toy, game, or trip to a special place would be more appropriate for someone who has to retrain their mind/body to accept normal portions and develop a taste for healthy foods.
What is your point about a single happy meal? The hypothetical obese kid could be eating an apple in a grocery store and we'd still be able to logically deduce that he's being brought up with inappropriate eating/exercise habits.
I don't think it is right to use junk food as a "special treat" for kids who are obese any more than I think the occasional drink is a fine reward for an alcoholic.
Awarding with a toy, game, or trip to a special place would be more appropriate for someone who has to retrain their mind/body to accept normal portions and develop a taste for healthy foods.
64
Just love the way bullying is wrong wrong wrong unless it's bullying fat kids. And fat adults. All of whom have total control over their body size and all of whom are lazy and constantly eating.
Yes, parents need to feed their kids proper foods in reasonable portions, but this is just attacking for laughs, because it lets everyone else off the hook.
Get over yourself Dan, and let the whole weight issue rest.
Yes, parents need to feed their kids proper foods in reasonable portions, but this is just attacking for laughs, because it lets everyone else off the hook.
Get over yourself Dan, and let the whole weight issue rest.
65
@11- I was a slightly chubby kid and was teased relentlessly about it. I thought I was a really fat kid, but I recently looked at some old family pictures and I was a lot less fat than the bullies had lead me to believe.
66
You idiots. Read Rethinking Thin by Gina Kolata.
With that said, there are a lot of fatties here not taking responsibility for their bodies. Calories in vs calories out. I'm sorry that you have a lower basal metabolic rate but anyone will lose weight if calories in are less than calories out. And surprise surprise, it has to stay that way for life to keep the fat off. Also: muscle burns calories and the less you weigh the fewer calories you need to maintain body weight.
Good luck!
With that said, there are a lot of fatties here not taking responsibility for their bodies. Calories in vs calories out. I'm sorry that you have a lower basal metabolic rate but anyone will lose weight if calories in are less than calories out. And surprise surprise, it has to stay that way for life to keep the fat off. Also: muscle burns calories and the less you weigh the fewer calories you need to maintain body weight.
Good luck!
67
@ 63, whether or not material that insults fat kids or gay kids or female kids or kids of color or Jewish kids or any kind of kids is intended specifically for kids really doesn't change the fact that it insults them. And as we both know, kids will hear it and have heard it. We're on a site run by a man who runs a whole channel of online videos for kids because he knows they watch them. There is no level on which that argument works.
I'll break this down for you again - many obese people don't eat poorly. Many other obese people who do eat poorly would still be obese if they ate well, maybe just slightly less so. Many people who are thin, conversely, eat very poorly. Poor health due to poor diet will affect anyone, regardless of their weight. So no, looking at a child and seeing that they're fat DOESN'T tell us that they don't eat well. Seeing a child of any size having some junk food DOESN'T tell us that that child typically eats that way. If someone is obese and eats well, it is no more inappropriate for them to occasionally eat one unhealthy thing than it is for any of the rest of us, nor is it any more likely to impact their weight or their health. You cannot deduce anything about someone's health or eating habits by the size of their body.
I'll break this down for you again - many obese people don't eat poorly. Many other obese people who do eat poorly would still be obese if they ate well, maybe just slightly less so. Many people who are thin, conversely, eat very poorly. Poor health due to poor diet will affect anyone, regardless of their weight. So no, looking at a child and seeing that they're fat DOESN'T tell us that they don't eat well. Seeing a child of any size having some junk food DOESN'T tell us that that child typically eats that way. If someone is obese and eats well, it is no more inappropriate for them to occasionally eat one unhealthy thing than it is for any of the rest of us, nor is it any more likely to impact their weight or their health. You cannot deduce anything about someone's health or eating habits by the size of their body.
68
Every bullying has a Cinnabun of truth, Dan. Doesn't make it any less bullying. Actually it probably makes it worse.
There are always better ways to tell the truth.
There are always better ways to tell the truth.
69
For people saying it is irrelevant that thin people can be functionally obese, I'm trying to convince Dan to shut the fuck up about fatties already. It'd be less offensive if he didn't have a pattern of this behavior, though it wouldn't be any less hypocritical.
Every time Dan marginalizes another persecuted group (like fatties or transfolk) for the sake of a laugh and a quick blog post, I become that much less inclined to donate to this year's strangercrombie. I become that much less inclined to pop up slog when I get home from work the next day. I become that much less inclined to refer Dan's column to the sexually-inhibited twentysomethings in my family and circle of friends.
Save the hate speech for the water cooler, motherfucker. You aren't only hurting yourself, here, you're hurting your potential viewership too. I know several transfolk who've been alienated by Dan's trans-hate already.
Every time Dan marginalizes another persecuted group (like fatties or transfolk) for the sake of a laugh and a quick blog post, I become that much less inclined to donate to this year's strangercrombie. I become that much less inclined to pop up slog when I get home from work the next day. I become that much less inclined to refer Dan's column to the sexually-inhibited twentysomethings in my family and circle of friends.
Save the hate speech for the water cooler, motherfucker. You aren't only hurting yourself, here, you're hurting your potential viewership too. I know several transfolk who've been alienated by Dan's trans-hate already.
71
This song is aimed at irresponsible parents. It is satirical. Dan admits it is harsh, even brutal--ever read Swift? He had a pretty harsh and brutal solution for the problem of Irish overpopulation.
Satire's purpose is to humorously expose and explore uncomfortable truths. If you don't like it, don't listen to it. Yammering anecdotes about your thyroid, or about unhealthy thin people, or about healthy fat people, doesn't change the demographic reality one bit--childhood obesity is a major, and growing (ahem) problem.
Satire's purpose is to humorously expose and explore uncomfortable truths. If you don't like it, don't listen to it. Yammering anecdotes about your thyroid, or about unhealthy thin people, or about healthy fat people, doesn't change the demographic reality one bit--childhood obesity is a major, and growing (ahem) problem.
72
I agree Dan has some hypocritical hate going on and I've seen it before.
I still have a hard time reading this apologia for obese people, though, as though an overwhelming amount of non-psychological factors beyond their immediate control conspire to prevent them losing weight or increasing lean body mass to raise their resting metabolic rate (which is what we should be teaching everyone).
There is obesity in every population in the world. Yet, compare, say, the US and Japan or even South Korea (because I know myself some chubby, but mostly healthy, Koreans!)--they're on opposite ends of the spectrum. What are the relative BMI's? Is it just a matter of poverty? What about people in China: the 200 million affluent vs. the 700 million poor? Anyway, the diet and exercise thing for all people--skinny or fat--are factors within an individual's control. And Americans appear to be really bad at actually controlling them.
As for parents who feed their kids crap: shame on them. Anecdote time! My nephew, who's very skinny by the way, has bad digestive issues. He's 5 years old and just got out of the hospital 3 weeks ago for intestinal obstruction--something that is lethal if not caught quickly. How did he get sick? His parents refuse to actually cook any vegetables. No canned, no frozen, no fresh. No veggies. They also just gave him laxatives after his little hospital visit. It's stupid and he's going to have health issues for life because mom and dad couldn't be bothered to stop feeding him cheesy pasta and fries or balance that out a little.
I still have a hard time reading this apologia for obese people, though, as though an overwhelming amount of non-psychological factors beyond their immediate control conspire to prevent them losing weight or increasing lean body mass to raise their resting metabolic rate (which is what we should be teaching everyone).
There is obesity in every population in the world. Yet, compare, say, the US and Japan or even South Korea (because I know myself some chubby, but mostly healthy, Koreans!)--they're on opposite ends of the spectrum. What are the relative BMI's? Is it just a matter of poverty? What about people in China: the 200 million affluent vs. the 700 million poor? Anyway, the diet and exercise thing for all people--skinny or fat--are factors within an individual's control. And Americans appear to be really bad at actually controlling them.
As for parents who feed their kids crap: shame on them. Anecdote time! My nephew, who's very skinny by the way, has bad digestive issues. He's 5 years old and just got out of the hospital 3 weeks ago for intestinal obstruction--something that is lethal if not caught quickly. How did he get sick? His parents refuse to actually cook any vegetables. No canned, no frozen, no fresh. No veggies. They also just gave him laxatives after his little hospital visit. It's stupid and he's going to have health issues for life because mom and dad couldn't be bothered to stop feeding him cheesy pasta and fries or balance that out a little.
73
America, the land of no personal responsibility and "my thyroid made me eat it." Now, its ok to set your child up for a lifetime of weight issues because "How dare you judge how I feed me child!" Please. All this rationalizing about fat heathy people and skinny unhealthy people and everyone can still tell you'd rather not be fat. Why not take some responsibility for you an your family's health? It's too hard? Ah yes, the American way.
74
In this song, isn't it possible that Minchin is merely showing the parents what the kids on the playground will call their kids? If the parents cringe and get angry when they hear Minchin's hateful words, maybe they'll realize the abuse that they're setting their kids up for. He's showing them the reality of their kids' lives.
Couldn't it be possible that this is the reason and point of his words? Because that's what satirists do. They hold a mirror up to society and say, "Yes. This is you."
Couldn't it be possible that this is the reason and point of his words? Because that's what satirists do. They hold a mirror up to society and say, "Yes. This is you."
75
Hey, gang. Skimmed the comments, running out the door.
Don't have a Google search on "childhood obesity," but might get one. The story I linked to was everywhere yesterday -- front page of NYT business section, WSJ, AP -- which is how I stumbled over it.
As for my relentless harping away on this issue -- my constant badgering of obese people -- well, gee. There must have dozens of examples from, say, just the last six months of posts I've written for Slog where I go off on fat people. Please provide the links. I'd like to read all those fat-bashing posts that I don't remember writing.
Finally, people shouldn't feed crap to their children. Treats, sure, occasional indulgences, yes. But a steady diet of garbage harms a child's health -- whether the results are visible or not.
Have a great day! I'll come back later to peruse all those links to my fat bashing posts from the last six months. Hell -- make it the last year's worth of fat-bashing posts. There must be HUNDREDS. Please find 'em, hold me accountable!
Don't have a Google search on "childhood obesity," but might get one. The story I linked to was everywhere yesterday -- front page of NYT business section, WSJ, AP -- which is how I stumbled over it.
As for my relentless harping away on this issue -- my constant badgering of obese people -- well, gee. There must have dozens of examples from, say, just the last six months of posts I've written for Slog where I go off on fat people. Please provide the links. I'd like to read all those fat-bashing posts that I don't remember writing.
Finally, people shouldn't feed crap to their children. Treats, sure, occasional indulgences, yes. But a steady diet of garbage harms a child's health -- whether the results are visible or not.
Have a great day! I'll come back later to peruse all those links to my fat bashing posts from the last six months. Hell -- make it the last year's worth of fat-bashing posts. There must be HUNDREDS. Please find 'em, hold me accountable!
76
Gay kids and overweight kids have much more in common than not. Why someone like Dan Savage--a true advocate against the bullying of gay kids--would not take seriously the issue of bullying overweight kids baffles me. In fact, he doesn't even think it's bullying, it is just "nearly bullying". Why is it not bullying? Because being gay is okay and being fat isn't? Does it have something to do with choice? Anyone that says fat kids should simply lose the weight in order to avoid bullying no longer have the right to say that gay kids should be able to express their sexuality however they choose. Why don't gay kids just start acting more straight, dressing more straight, and stopping being so gay? We don't ask that of gay children, and we shouldn't ask it of overweight children.
I'm starting to question how Dan actually feels about the way bullying affects kids as they grow up, and it's a half assed endorsement of anti-bullying to say we should only stop bullying the kids who are different in the same ways we're different.
I'm starting to question how Dan actually feels about the way bullying affects kids as they grow up, and it's a half assed endorsement of anti-bullying to say we should only stop bullying the kids who are different in the same ways we're different.
77
Gay kids and overweight kids have much more in common than not. Why someone like Dan Savage--a true advocate against the bullying of gay kids--would not take seriously the issue of bullying overweight kids baffles me. In fact, he doesn't even think it's bullying, it is just "nearly bullying". Why is it not bullying? Because being gay is okay and being fat isn't? Does it have something to do with choice? Anyone that says fat kids should simply lose the weight in order to avoid bullying no longer have the right to say that gay kids should be able to express their sexuality however they choose. Why don't gay kids just start acting more straight, dressing more straight, and stopping being so gay? We don't ask that of gay children, and we shouldn't ask it of overweight children.
I'm starting to question how Dan actually feels about the way bullying affects kids as they grow up, and it's a half assed endorsement of anti-bullying to say we should only stop bullying the kids who are different in the same ways we're different.
I'm starting to question how Dan actually feels about the way bullying affects kids as they grow up, and it's a half assed endorsement of anti-bullying to say we should only stop bullying the kids who are different in the same ways we're different.
79
I see chubby children with obese parents all the time and I inevitably think, "You're doomed."
The fat woman in front of me was being checked out. The clerk leaned in my direction and away from her in order to empty her cart. I whispered to the clerk, "An obvious cook." The clerk was scanning one frozen pizza after another, a whole cart full of frozen pizzas, the rest of the woman's cart was all commercially prepared frozen foods. The clerk cracked up laughing. He glanced at the contents of my cart coming up next. The contrast could not have been more stark. I actually do feel very sorry for children with parents who themselves do not know about proper food preparation or nutrition. Their children suffer for all their parent's ignorance and then pass it on.
I see the problem as not just a heavy reliance on fast foods but on all convenience foods in general. Beware anything prepared that comes in a box, and that's pretty much everything. Think: What came before the box? Before the tin? Then make an attempt to eliminate all of it and reconnect to the basic ingredients that predated its commercialization. X out of you life; Hamburger Helper, potato flakes, pudding cups, NoodleRonis, tempura mixes, fish-n-chip packages, potato flakes, sauce packages, bottled dressings, prepared cookie dough, prepared pie crust, prepared pie filling, soup in tins, anything pasta frozen or otherwise because it's just so convenient, and on and on and on. Learn to make all those things from scratch, that's what food is about.
The fat woman in front of me was being checked out. The clerk leaned in my direction and away from her in order to empty her cart. I whispered to the clerk, "An obvious cook." The clerk was scanning one frozen pizza after another, a whole cart full of frozen pizzas, the rest of the woman's cart was all commercially prepared frozen foods. The clerk cracked up laughing. He glanced at the contents of my cart coming up next. The contrast could not have been more stark. I actually do feel very sorry for children with parents who themselves do not know about proper food preparation or nutrition. Their children suffer for all their parent's ignorance and then pass it on.
I see the problem as not just a heavy reliance on fast foods but on all convenience foods in general. Beware anything prepared that comes in a box, and that's pretty much everything. Think: What came before the box? Before the tin? Then make an attempt to eliminate all of it and reconnect to the basic ingredients that predated its commercialization. X out of you life; Hamburger Helper, potato flakes, pudding cups, NoodleRonis, tempura mixes, fish-n-chip packages, potato flakes, sauce packages, bottled dressings, prepared cookie dough, prepared pie crust, prepared pie filling, soup in tins, anything pasta frozen or otherwise because it's just so convenient, and on and on and on. Learn to make all those things from scratch, that's what food is about.
80
I WILL NOT BE IGNORED (sent from my iphone app)!!!!!
Now that I have your attention....but what about the Minchin-fesival earplugs? Did Terry want them??
Now that I have your attention....but what about the Minchin-fesival earplugs? Did Terry want them??
81
I realize that, @76, as I was gay and obese as a kid. I was bullied for being heavy until I started to lose weight. Then I was bullied for being a fag.
Now please cite evidence that I've bullied gay kids—besides posting this Minchin song, which I labeled as bullying. It does pop into my head when I read about childhood obesity, however, which is why I tossed it up.
Now please cite evidence that I've bullied gay kids—besides posting this Minchin song, which I labeled as bullying. It does pop into my head when I read about childhood obesity, however, which is why I tossed it up.
82
Canuck, he referred to my comment's snarky Google Alert reference! I WAS NOT IGNORED and now, of course, I know I should have been....
83
I work in a pizza restaurant.
People buy entire 12" pizzas for five year olds.
I feel guilty that I let them.
And about 2/3 of my closest friends qualify as obese.
They all eat too fucking much and refuse to make vegetables.
It's too hard to cook right. To eat right. None of it tastes good. But when we have them over to dinner - which we do often - everyone eats everything. All the hippie dippie low fat whole grain high veggie shit we prepare. I think it's because we use these things called seasoning and imagination.
Yeah, yeah. It's complicated. People still ask if I'm on my diet - that thing where I eat real food (and a fucking lot of it) and exercise a lot and don't eat sugar or processed food.
Yeah. Still on it. Not a fucking diet. Just life.
God, I miss seven kinds of cheese in the fridge...
People buy entire 12" pizzas for five year olds.
I feel guilty that I let them.
And about 2/3 of my closest friends qualify as obese.
They all eat too fucking much and refuse to make vegetables.
It's too hard to cook right. To eat right. None of it tastes good. But when we have them over to dinner - which we do often - everyone eats everything. All the hippie dippie low fat whole grain high veggie shit we prepare. I think it's because we use these things called seasoning and imagination.
Yeah, yeah. It's complicated. People still ask if I'm on my diet - that thing where I eat real food (and a fucking lot of it) and exercise a lot and don't eat sugar or processed food.
Yeah. Still on it. Not a fucking diet. Just life.
God, I miss seven kinds of cheese in the fridge...
84
@ 81, no, Dan, you posted it as "nearly bullying" and then lauded it's Cinnabuns of truth.
Can you find hundreds of independent examples from the past year of Rick Santorum ragging on gay people, Dan? Can you find hundreds of independent examples from the past year of Rush Limbaugh ragging on Black people? How many times to you need to insult a group that already gets insulted, made fun of, bullied, and marginalized every single day before it's not okay? How large a risk of suicide do the youth of that community need to be at before it's not okay? How much more evidence do we need that the problems being ascribed to these people by critics masking their hate with concern don't actually apply to many of them and DO apply to many of those criticizing them before we admit that that kind of criticism is ignorant?
Can you find hundreds of independent examples from the past year of Rick Santorum ragging on gay people, Dan? Can you find hundreds of independent examples from the past year of Rush Limbaugh ragging on Black people? How many times to you need to insult a group that already gets insulted, made fun of, bullied, and marginalized every single day before it's not okay? How large a risk of suicide do the youth of that community need to be at before it's not okay? How much more evidence do we need that the problems being ascribed to these people by critics masking their hate with concern don't actually apply to many of them and DO apply to many of those criticizing them before we admit that that kind of criticism is ignorant?
85
All I've learned from this thread is that we as a country are not serious about solving the obesity problem, which shortens lives and costs all of us as tax payers in the same way that smoking does.
We can't even agree that it is a problem with the crazy idea of healthy-obesity (especially in children) is being floated about.
We can't even agree that it is a problem with the crazy idea of healthy-obesity (especially in children) is being floated about.
86
Mr. Savage, if your reading this, just wanted say I enjoy your occasional fat joke, and your self-deprecating humor about how your a 'body-facist'.
87
GUS! You are famous now! (...and I did notice his/your Google reference, but jealous, self-absorbed Leo-slut that I am, had to get my earplug question in again...which *was* ignored...) Just don't forget those who have been with you since the beginning, you know, your shot buddies? The ones who got their Strangercrombie badge just a few minutes before you did...you know? Nudge nudge, wink wink, riding on your coattails to fame and glory...!
88
honestly, even if this is the only post dan has ever made making or endorsing fat-phobic comments, it's one too many. there's a lot of factors that can lead to obesity, including poor eating habits, but that doesn't mean we should be judging people immediately or bullying them based on how they look. i grew up always chubby. i've since started watching what i eat and working out, and while i've toned up a bit, i'm still fat. i'm also, according to my doctor, totally healthy. i know this is anecdotal, but i can't be the only one. so hearing stuff like this from typically intelligent, sensitive people makes me sad.
90
My Mother was/is a very good cook when she wants to be. But most of the time she just slapped stuff together: Lots of ground beef, Kraft Macaroni & Cheese dinner, frozen vegetables, and other stuff like that. But always a green salad and hardly ever a desert. And just enough food for a family of four - not a whole lot of seconds or leftovers.
We were big on dining out, but we tended to go to grown-up places where the portions weren't huge and it wasn't particularly "family friendly": I remember being incredibly bored while the adults lingered over coffee and cigarettes after dinner, but in retrospect I value the civilizing effect it had on me, and the opportunity to develop my imagination. Plus, the 60's and 70's was the era of campy, over-the-top dining rooms full of chandeliers and poufy drapes, so at least I was in an aesthetically comforting environment for me.
Nowadays, the corporate restaurants are so yuck: The enviroment is childish - even at the expensive places - and the food tends to be fatty and either too sweet or too salty, and the portions are huge. Soda, which was a once-a-week treat for us, is served at every meal. The sort of processed food my mom used to serve us is laden with even more crap than it was then, and kids just don't get the exercise they used to. It seems like even in the suburbs, kids don't walk to school - they get chauffeured everywhere. And if we sat around the non air-conditioned house all day in the summertime, my mom would have had a breakdown. She used to kick us out of the house after breakfast and expect us home for dinner. But we had a huge park bordering our property with lots of trails to play on. Also, in Iowa at least, you have Physical Education every day, with sadistic PE teachers who made you do all sorts of horrible things. But it kept us active during the school year.
So I can't blame the fat kids for being fat, and it's hard to blame the parents. It's just part of the dumbing down of society. And only a bore would bully.
As far as cooking goes, I don't know what I'd do with myself in the evenings if I didn't have dinner to cook - especially during these long winter evenings. But then again, I like to cook. (That’s not nearly as virtuous as it sounds. I'm one of those cream-of-mushroom soup casserole types)
More...
We were big on dining out, but we tended to go to grown-up places where the portions weren't huge and it wasn't particularly "family friendly": I remember being incredibly bored while the adults lingered over coffee and cigarettes after dinner, but in retrospect I value the civilizing effect it had on me, and the opportunity to develop my imagination. Plus, the 60's and 70's was the era of campy, over-the-top dining rooms full of chandeliers and poufy drapes, so at least I was in an aesthetically comforting environment for me.
Nowadays, the corporate restaurants are so yuck: The enviroment is childish - even at the expensive places - and the food tends to be fatty and either too sweet or too salty, and the portions are huge. Soda, which was a once-a-week treat for us, is served at every meal. The sort of processed food my mom used to serve us is laden with even more crap than it was then, and kids just don't get the exercise they used to. It seems like even in the suburbs, kids don't walk to school - they get chauffeured everywhere. And if we sat around the non air-conditioned house all day in the summertime, my mom would have had a breakdown. She used to kick us out of the house after breakfast and expect us home for dinner. But we had a huge park bordering our property with lots of trails to play on. Also, in Iowa at least, you have Physical Education every day, with sadistic PE teachers who made you do all sorts of horrible things. But it kept us active during the school year.
So I can't blame the fat kids for being fat, and it's hard to blame the parents. It's just part of the dumbing down of society. And only a bore would bully.
As far as cooking goes, I don't know what I'd do with myself in the evenings if I didn't have dinner to cook - especially during these long winter evenings. But then again, I like to cook. (That’s not nearly as virtuous as it sounds. I'm one of those cream-of-mushroom soup casserole types)
91
Well, there is a Cinnabun of truth to it. Or two.
I'm a parent, and I see what many other parents are up to, what they're feeding their kids. It's particularly problematic when these kids come to our house for dinner and encounter their first meal that doesn't feature/isn't limited to pizza, chicken nuggets, french fries, or hotdogs. Oh, the number of kids who've encountered salad for the first time at our place. I wish I'd videotaped some of their reactions.
I'm a parent, and I see what many other parents are up to, what they're feeding their kids. It's particularly problematic when these kids come to our house for dinner and encounter their first meal that doesn't feature/isn't limited to pizza, chicken nuggets, french fries, or hotdogs. Oh, the number of kids who've encountered salad for the first time at our place. I wish I'd videotaped some of their reactions.
92
@91 That's kind of scary...and you live in a fairly "enlightened" part of the country, at that. Same thing at our house, but with whole wheat bread. No wonder the "Wal-Martians" website is so prolific...
93
I don't understand. Isn't the point of feeding donuts and fast food to obese children to replenish the supply of nutrient-starved, brain-challenged Transportation Security Agents that diminishes from diabetes and cardiac arrests? Aren't these addlepated, applewaisted people "farmed" by both the U.S. and the U.K. to fight the "war on terror" by removing leg braces from developmentally disabled preschoolers and gel implants from octogenarian citizens who are breast cancer survivors?
94
That is heartbreaking.
I can't tell you the number of times I've heard parents say, "Little Precious is a picky eater. She/he will only eat McDonald's." Parents who allow that and cater to it are worse than useless.
Oh, the number of kids who've encountered salad for the first time at our place.
That is heartbreaking.
I can't tell you the number of times I've heard parents say, "Little Precious is a picky eater. She/he will only eat McDonald's." Parents who allow that and cater to it are worse than useless.
95
@ 91, and as we all know, many kids who are fed garbage are not fat, which doesn't stop them from getting heart disease or diabetes.
I have zero problem with highlighting the fact the there's a HUGE problem in this country, one that we know affects the vast majority of Americans, with people regularly eating terrible "food" that is literally killing them. However, it's completely illogical as a justification for shaming fat people and insulting fat children. In fact, by contributing to body shame that leads to an increase in diet-based obesity and obese teen suicide, depression, and substance abuse AND leading thin people or parents with thin children to think that bad diet isn't hurting them/their kids because they're not fat, that piece of ignorance literally kills people.
I have zero problem with highlighting the fact the there's a HUGE problem in this country, one that we know affects the vast majority of Americans, with people regularly eating terrible "food" that is literally killing them. However, it's completely illogical as a justification for shaming fat people and insulting fat children. In fact, by contributing to body shame that leads to an increase in diet-based obesity and obese teen suicide, depression, and substance abuse AND leading thin people or parents with thin children to think that bad diet isn't hurting them/their kids because they're not fat, that piece of ignorance literally kills people.
96
As a flight attendant, I can't count the number of times I've had to put child-friendly lids on drink cups that held soda pop for children young/small enough to be in baby seats on flights. AT SEVEN IN THE MORNING.
If I see a parent physically abusing their child with either their hands or their words, I'm required to take action according to guidelines set up the government. If I see a parent abusing their child with sugary drinks and prepackaged snacks, I'm required to offer seconds.
If I see a parent physically abusing their child with either their hands or their words, I'm required to take action according to guidelines set up the government. If I see a parent abusing their child with sugary drinks and prepackaged snacks, I'm required to offer seconds.
98
Okay Dan, here's an example, and the conversation that ensued:
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2…
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2…
99
To me, there is a huge difference between fat and obese. My brother was "husky", didn't get fat until after leaving the Navy, and bordered obese much later in life (now has two artificial hips from the wear and tear). I don't worry too much about the healthy looking husky kids, or even the fat teens - it is those truly rolly polly obese little kids that break my heart. I jumped back in, like Dan, just to remind parents once again to PAY ATTENTION, that's all.
100
@96 just because someone lets their kid have some pop on an airplane does NOT indicate that they have a habit of allowing their kids to drink pop. Nor is it fucking child abuse. How irrational can you get?
Most people fly every few years, at the MOST. Flying is a very traumatic experience for a child, when it's their first flight. A parent who wouldn't let their kid have a treat during a traumatic experience is more likely to be the abusive one.
Most people fly every few years, at the MOST. Flying is a very traumatic experience for a child, when it's their first flight. A parent who wouldn't let their kid have a treat during a traumatic experience is more likely to be the abusive one.
102
@11, I totally know where you're coming from. I live in Cornwall and spent $100 on veggies on my last grocery shop. Note I didn't buy any meats (I'm trying a more vegetarian diet to help deal with my weight issues). It's insane. I could have bought a shit load of instant dinners for that.
103
When I was a cab driver, I had a customer who was extremely obese. He was way over 300 pounds. On the way to his girlfriend's house, he had me stop at a KFC, where he ordered a big bag full of some kind of chicken tender type of thing. "Boneless drummies" or something. Like, several orders worth. He offered me some, but I said no thanks. (I myself was trying to avoid fast food, since I was working my way down from 280 to 230, where I remain.) He got quiet for about two minutes, and then said, "I'm so fat." That was all he said for the rest of the ride.
104
Just yesterday the nice lady at the daycare cheerfully announced that my 10-month-old daughter just loooooved the apple juice they'd given her. What's wrong with water? I politely asked that she not give her juice again, but I'm astonished at the shit those people think is food. When I warned them that she'd recently had lentils and not to worry if her poop was lentil-y (you have to have these sorts of conversations when you have a baby), the nice lady asked, "What's that?"
*forehead smack*
*forehead smack*
105
@98 Hmm, but that's referenced at one of those websites/groups that says being overweight has nothing to do with food or diet...for *most* people, when you eat sugar/simple carbs, you gain weight, eat mostly veggies, meat, and some whole grains, you don't gain weight. Exercise helps keep the poundage down, being sedentary does not. As much as I would like to think I could lose weight by eating French bread and brie cheese, and sitting in front of the computer commenting here all day (!), it probably wouldn't happen. Maybe there are people who are atypical, but for most people, healthy food and exercise = healthy weight.
106
@100 Rach3l
Uh, do you have kids? Just curious, because I have 3 of them, have traveled a lot by plane, from the time they were 2 months old, and they never had pop, nor do I consider myself an abusive parent because of it. Teaching your kid to associate self-soothing with sugar? Oh yeah, brilliant parenting move, there. Small kids on planes get toys, crayons, magic ink books, walks up and down the aisle (and if mummy's lucky she gets a gin and tonic), but pop? A three year old in an enclosed space with a sugar high? Honey, you get back to me after you try that one...
Uh, do you have kids? Just curious, because I have 3 of them, have traveled a lot by plane, from the time they were 2 months old, and they never had pop, nor do I consider myself an abusive parent because of it. Teaching your kid to associate self-soothing with sugar? Oh yeah, brilliant parenting move, there. Small kids on planes get toys, crayons, magic ink books, walks up and down the aisle (and if mummy's lucky she gets a gin and tonic), but pop? A three year old in an enclosed space with a sugar high? Honey, you get back to me after you try that one...
107
I remember something I saw somewhere on the Internet – a guy who worked at a grocery store said that poor and working-class families often fill up their carts with high-starch, low-nutrition stuff, pre-prepared stuff, snack foods, and it comes out to around $150. Affluent families, meanwhile, fill their carts with vegetables, lean meats and higher-quality prepared stuff: it comes out to around $300.
I also think about a neighborhood I lived in for a while – getting to the grocery store was almost impossible without a car. If you didn't have a car, what were your food options? You guessed it: fast food, snacks, greasy fried stuff, stuff from the gas station.
I also think about how many working people simply don't have much time or energy at the end of the day – time and energy that might otherwise go to cooking. And about how many schools actually serve their kids junk food, for the same basic reasons their parents do: it's what's within their budget.
In my experience, a huge, systemic, nation-wide problem most likely requires a huge, systemic, nation-wide solution. Are there parents who could totally afford to provide healthy food to their kids, but who don't because they're lazy or ignorant? Yeah, there are, but that's really not the problem. As long as people lack the resources to obtain and prepare healthy food, there will be huge problems with obesity and poor nutrition in the US.
I also think about a neighborhood I lived in for a while – getting to the grocery store was almost impossible without a car. If you didn't have a car, what were your food options? You guessed it: fast food, snacks, greasy fried stuff, stuff from the gas station.
I also think about how many working people simply don't have much time or energy at the end of the day – time and energy that might otherwise go to cooking. And about how many schools actually serve their kids junk food, for the same basic reasons their parents do: it's what's within their budget.
In my experience, a huge, systemic, nation-wide problem most likely requires a huge, systemic, nation-wide solution. Are there parents who could totally afford to provide healthy food to their kids, but who don't because they're lazy or ignorant? Yeah, there are, but that's really not the problem. As long as people lack the resources to obtain and prepare healthy food, there will be huge problems with obesity and poor nutrition in the US.
108
@107
Of course it's cheaper to fill up a cart with boxes and cans than real food. Real food has less packaging and dead space. If the families are affluent to begin with, they're probably buying higher quality than is strictly necessary.
My husband and I spend about $125 on food per month for the two of us. We like cooking and we're cheap, so it works out for us. Give me any packaged meal or food and I will tell you exactly how I can make it cheaper than the factory can.
Eating well is not expensive and it's not limited to the upper class. Anyone who disagrees is welcome to join me for Sunday dinners at my grandma's. Spanish-language skills highly recommended.
I also lived in such a neighborhood once. I took the bus.
I've worked since I was 15. Yes, I'm generally tired at the end of the day. But cooking dinner is as hard as you make it. 15 minutes in the morning plus a slow cooker means a hearty, healthy stew for dinner. Slow cookers are $20 new, $3 at Goodwill, and $1.50 at garage sales.
The problem is big but the solution is small and individual: Take care with your food. Food isn't an inconvenience or a tragedy. The idea that cooking is difficult is simply perpetuated by people selling boxed goods. 50 years ago cooking wasn't difficult it was just a fact of life. And they didn't have internet recipes or most of the appliances we have.
Of course it's cheaper to fill up a cart with boxes and cans than real food. Real food has less packaging and dead space. If the families are affluent to begin with, they're probably buying higher quality than is strictly necessary.
My husband and I spend about $125 on food per month for the two of us. We like cooking and we're cheap, so it works out for us. Give me any packaged meal or food and I will tell you exactly how I can make it cheaper than the factory can.
Eating well is not expensive and it's not limited to the upper class. Anyone who disagrees is welcome to join me for Sunday dinners at my grandma's. Spanish-language skills highly recommended.
I also lived in such a neighborhood once. I took the bus.
I've worked since I was 15. Yes, I'm generally tired at the end of the day. But cooking dinner is as hard as you make it. 15 minutes in the morning plus a slow cooker means a hearty, healthy stew for dinner. Slow cookers are $20 new, $3 at Goodwill, and $1.50 at garage sales.
The problem is big but the solution is small and individual: Take care with your food. Food isn't an inconvenience or a tragedy. The idea that cooking is difficult is simply perpetuated by people selling boxed goods. 50 years ago cooking wasn't difficult it was just a fact of life. And they didn't have internet recipes or most of the appliances we have.
109
@ 105 - "Maybe there are people who are atypical, but for most people, healthy food and exercise = healthy weight"
I think you've managed to elegantly (as always) sum up the whole issue. There may be other factors that influence weight gain, but "eat well and exercise and you won't become morbidly obese" is a good rule of thumb.
All the data shows that Western societies are becoming more and more sedentary and rely more and more on processed/prepared/junk food, and guess what? People are getting fatter and fatter. That's not just a correlation.
Poor people have less access to healthy food or less time to prepare it? Sure, but poverty is also linked to many crimes, and would you agree with those criminals being allowed to use a "poverty defense" in court? Didn't think so.
Grow up, people, and start accepting responsability for your own life/physical state, especially if your about to fuck up your children's by refusing to take off your blinders.
Tim Minchin's song is not meant for kids, it's meant for parents so that they will stop doing that. The ignorant ones here are those who didn't get that.
And to think that someone once scolded me for saying Slog posters were offensively PC... Well, I guess some of them aren't.
I think you've managed to elegantly (as always) sum up the whole issue. There may be other factors that influence weight gain, but "eat well and exercise and you won't become morbidly obese" is a good rule of thumb.
All the data shows that Western societies are becoming more and more sedentary and rely more and more on processed/prepared/junk food, and guess what? People are getting fatter and fatter. That's not just a correlation.
Poor people have less access to healthy food or less time to prepare it? Sure, but poverty is also linked to many crimes, and would you agree with those criminals being allowed to use a "poverty defense" in court? Didn't think so.
Grow up, people, and start accepting responsability for your own life/physical state, especially if your about to fuck up your children's by refusing to take off your blinders.
Tim Minchin's song is not meant for kids, it's meant for parents so that they will stop doing that. The ignorant ones here are those who didn't get that.
And to think that someone once scolded me for saying Slog posters were offensively PC... Well, I guess some of them aren't.
110
@98: Why are you posting a link to the response to Dan's post instead of the post? Perhaps it's because the post wasn't actually that objectionable.
111
I was a fat kid and then a fat adult. I fought with my weight my entire life, less as a pretty active kid (but it took fewer extra lbs. to be considered fat in the 1970's) and then more as an adult with a fairly normal sedentary, urban lifestyle.
I tried just about EVERYTHING and ANYTHING over the years to lose the weight. I was like the majority of Americans looking for a silver bullet.
Finally, around my 40th birthday, I found one. During the last year and half, I lost close to 80 lbs., going from 255 lbs and a 40" waist to 175 lbs. and a 30" waist. THAT'S RIGHT I FOUND SILVER BULLET TO WEIGHT LOSS. Drum roll: I finally gave up and pretty much removed high fats and sugar from my diet and exercised more. Despite the billions of $$ spent on diet in U.S., it basically amounts to simple math, properly balancing calories consumed with those burned.
The weight literally fell off before my eyes. Several wardrobes later, always thinking that I had plateaued, I found my correct wait and finally discovered what I look like as a healthy and "normal" weight man (i.e., as a modern, "skinny" American).
My family and some friends and colleagues think it's strange. They constantly are trying to undermine my new diet. ("One cookie won't matter.) But I wouldn't go back to being fat for anything. I have new energy and my doctor says I literally have added years to my life. Nothing makes me sadder than seeing morbidly obese children...Their parents are abusing them and no one cares. I am hoping many, many others learn to improve their basic math skills.
I tried just about EVERYTHING and ANYTHING over the years to lose the weight. I was like the majority of Americans looking for a silver bullet.
Finally, around my 40th birthday, I found one. During the last year and half, I lost close to 80 lbs., going from 255 lbs and a 40" waist to 175 lbs. and a 30" waist. THAT'S RIGHT I FOUND SILVER BULLET TO WEIGHT LOSS. Drum roll: I finally gave up and pretty much removed high fats and sugar from my diet and exercised more. Despite the billions of $$ spent on diet in U.S., it basically amounts to simple math, properly balancing calories consumed with those burned.
The weight literally fell off before my eyes. Several wardrobes later, always thinking that I had plateaued, I found my correct wait and finally discovered what I look like as a healthy and "normal" weight man (i.e., as a modern, "skinny" American).
My family and some friends and colleagues think it's strange. They constantly are trying to undermine my new diet. ("One cookie won't matter.) But I wouldn't go back to being fat for anything. I have new energy and my doctor says I literally have added years to my life. Nothing makes me sadder than seeing morbidly obese children...Their parents are abusing them and no one cares. I am hoping many, many others learn to improve their basic math skills.
112
this idea that we have to fear sweets is a little over the top. there's a middle area between having a treat and enjoying life, and needing a treat to enjoy life.
113
We don't have to fear any sweets, but they should be occasional treats and not the foundation for our diets...
Once you achieve a healthy weight, you can splurge every-once-in-a-while, but you do it knowing that you need to hit the gym a little harder and maybe cut calories a little more, to make up for that special burst of fat or sugar calories.
Again, it's basic math. You consume more calories than you burn, and you will get fat. It's really that simple. I was fat for the first 40 years of my life, but I ALWAYS at my core understood that much. Is it really that hard to understand?
Once you achieve a healthy weight, you can splurge every-once-in-a-while, but you do it knowing that you need to hit the gym a little harder and maybe cut calories a little more, to make up for that special burst of fat or sugar calories.
Again, it's basic math. You consume more calories than you burn, and you will get fat. It's really that simple. I was fat for the first 40 years of my life, but I ALWAYS at my core understood that much. Is it really that hard to understand?
114
I see a lot of indignant justifications here, and not a lot of recognition that though you can be unhealthy and thin (something I have yet to see anyone dispute), if you're obese you're very likely also unhealthy, particularly if you are a child.
So is anyone willing to claim that rising obesity and rising prevalence of type two diabetes (even in children, which used to be very rare) is unrelated? That there is no link between obesity and cardiovascular disease, one of the most common causes of death in the western world?
Can genetics play a role? Sure. Do poor people face challenges that others don't face? Yes. But Europe and Asia and South America all have poor people (hey, remember when you could distinguish the poor because they were thinner?), and have widely varying genetics, and none of them have the kind of obesity the US of A has. So maybe, just maybe, we should admit that obesity is caused by people doing things they ought not be doing, in most cases.
This is even more tragic in the case of children, who eat what their parents feed them. If you are unwilling to concede that, exceptions and subpopulations aside, there are clear links between life choices and obesity and between obesity and various diseases, then you are frankly in denial, and in an effort to not make fat children feel bad are doing them no favors.
So is anyone willing to claim that rising obesity and rising prevalence of type two diabetes (even in children, which used to be very rare) is unrelated? That there is no link between obesity and cardiovascular disease, one of the most common causes of death in the western world?
Can genetics play a role? Sure. Do poor people face challenges that others don't face? Yes. But Europe and Asia and South America all have poor people (hey, remember when you could distinguish the poor because they were thinner?), and have widely varying genetics, and none of them have the kind of obesity the US of A has. So maybe, just maybe, we should admit that obesity is caused by people doing things they ought not be doing, in most cases.
This is even more tragic in the case of children, who eat what their parents feed them. If you are unwilling to concede that, exceptions and subpopulations aside, there are clear links between life choices and obesity and between obesity and various diseases, then you are frankly in denial, and in an effort to not make fat children feel bad are doing them no favors.
115
I do think you can find low fat foods for cheap, but this isn't the same thing as healthy in my opinion. For me to consider something as "healthy," it needs to also be free of carcinogens, pesticides, shady additives in general, and empty calories. When you add these requirements, food gets a lot more expensive.
So you can easily be thin on a budget, but being healthy on a budget is more difficult.
And here in AK, fresh produce is definitely NOT cheap (everything is expensive here, but produce disproportionately so). I eat about the same as I did when I lived in the lower 48, only now produce comprises well over half of my grocery bill. If I were getting paid as low as I did before moving up here, I'd have to settle for shitty frozen veggies (just as healthy, but far less tempting than a delicious bunch of fresh kale). I miss the days when a big bag of apples was a negligible expense.
But I also have the luxury of a steady daily schedule that allows me to prepare meals from scratch. I can easily understand someone with an unpredictable schedule, working multiple shifts every day, opting for the "quick-and-filling" meals, since eating is just another rushed task at that point. Not that this makes it impossible to devote time for proper cooking, but it sure as hell makes it harder, and I think that's worth mentioning.
So you can easily be thin on a budget, but being healthy on a budget is more difficult.
And here in AK, fresh produce is definitely NOT cheap (everything is expensive here, but produce disproportionately so). I eat about the same as I did when I lived in the lower 48, only now produce comprises well over half of my grocery bill. If I were getting paid as low as I did before moving up here, I'd have to settle for shitty frozen veggies (just as healthy, but far less tempting than a delicious bunch of fresh kale). I miss the days when a big bag of apples was a negligible expense.
But I also have the luxury of a steady daily schedule that allows me to prepare meals from scratch. I can easily understand someone with an unpredictable schedule, working multiple shifts every day, opting for the "quick-and-filling" meals, since eating is just another rushed task at that point. Not that this makes it impossible to devote time for proper cooking, but it sure as hell makes it harder, and I think that's worth mentioning.
116
And while I generally am sensitive to arguments about social justice and understand that poorer, inner city neighborhoods likely are underserved with high-quality grocery stores, I think it's just wrong to assume that all fat people are somehow victims of our economic system.
I think many, many of them are simply lazy and self indulgent people who like fast food, junk food, soda, processed foods and hate exercise and the somewhat harder effort that cooking and buying more healthy food entails.
I think many, many of them are simply lazy and self indulgent people who like fast food, junk food, soda, processed foods and hate exercise and the somewhat harder effort that cooking and buying more healthy food entails.
117
amazonvera,
You are arguing that since a vast majority Americans have a unhealthy lifestyle (any stats to back that up?) that talking about childhood obesity, or obesity in general, as a negative thing is completely off limits; that if you describe obesity at all in a bad light you are now shaming people and bullying them into worsening their condition.
I'll agree that adults who feed their kids (fat or thin) crap on a regular basis and don't force them to get exercise are abusing their children, and should be ashamed of it. The adults who let their kids become morbidly obese are even worse because the abuse is literally looking them in the face.
Your psychobabble on "body shame" has a white-bias. Studies have shown that there are groups where being large doesn't automatically translate into poor self image, suicide. I believe african-american women are such a group, which probably explains why over 50% of them are considered "obese" by the CDC's statistics (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/14/health…)
You are arguing that since a vast majority Americans have a unhealthy lifestyle (any stats to back that up?) that talking about childhood obesity, or obesity in general, as a negative thing is completely off limits; that if you describe obesity at all in a bad light you are now shaming people and bullying them into worsening their condition.
I'll agree that adults who feed their kids (fat or thin) crap on a regular basis and don't force them to get exercise are abusing their children, and should be ashamed of it. The adults who let their kids become morbidly obese are even worse because the abuse is literally looking them in the face.
Your psychobabble on "body shame" has a white-bias. Studies have shown that there are groups where being large doesn't automatically translate into poor self image, suicide. I believe african-american women are such a group, which probably explains why over 50% of them are considered "obese" by the CDC's statistics (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/14/health…)
118
As someone who put on weight once I moved out of my mother's house, it kind of upsets me that she might have been blamed for that, because she's a total 3 veg at every meal lots of salad, no junk food person. Whenever that song played on my iPod when I was in a semi-rural southern Wal-mart, I would cackle a bit and probably looked like a crazy person.
119
when has anyone said that all fat people are also poor? nobody has ever made the argument that every fat person is free of responsibility. there's just been lots of people saying "hey, not everyone can help their weight, not every fat person is unhealthy, please stop making generalizations, oh and by the way, this is no different than making shitty generalizations about gay people"
i wouldn't speak for anyone else, but i'm asking for a little fucking sensitivity and respect.
i wouldn't speak for anyone else, but i'm asking for a little fucking sensitivity and respect.
120
@ 114, the point is that there is a known causative relationship in this scenario, and it is between poor diet and poor health. Another correlative, not causative, factor that will frequently also appear is obesity. No doubt. But it's a correlative symptom, not a causative one, that doesn't appear in all people with poor health and/or poor diet and does appear, with some frequency, in people with good diet and good health/health problems not caused by diet.
There is an enormous body of scientific evidence that indicates all of this, and there's still a lot we don't know about why one person will eat like crap, stay thin, and develop type 2 diabetes while another will eat well, be overweight from the day they're born, and never have a major health issue. What we do know is that a healthy eating movement that focuses on fat people and how awful it is to be fat is, without fail, going to target a lot of the wrong people (who, let's face it, already have to deal with plenty of hate that doesn't even masquerade as concern) and leave behind a lot of those who desperately need that message. Given all of that on top of the rates of depression, suicide, and substance abuse in overweight kids and how many studies show that shame and emotional distress exacerbate diet-related obesity (because if body shame was an effective weight loss tool, we'd already be one of the thinnest countries on earth), how does anyone who claims to be concerned about health and the wellbeing of young people justify approaching things this way?
There is an enormous body of scientific evidence that indicates all of this, and there's still a lot we don't know about why one person will eat like crap, stay thin, and develop type 2 diabetes while another will eat well, be overweight from the day they're born, and never have a major health issue. What we do know is that a healthy eating movement that focuses on fat people and how awful it is to be fat is, without fail, going to target a lot of the wrong people (who, let's face it, already have to deal with plenty of hate that doesn't even masquerade as concern) and leave behind a lot of those who desperately need that message. Given all of that on top of the rates of depression, suicide, and substance abuse in overweight kids and how many studies show that shame and emotional distress exacerbate diet-related obesity (because if body shame was an effective weight loss tool, we'd already be one of the thinnest countries on earth), how does anyone who claims to be concerned about health and the wellbeing of young people justify approaching things this way?
121
@ 117, no, I'm saying that because obesity is known not to be anything near universally, directly linked to poor diet or poor health, making that false connection should be off limits. Because it's incorrect. The fact that it harms already marginalized kids is just why it's extra shitty.
If you seriously need me to link you to a study, I will, but it's ridiculous that you'd try to take part in a conversation about poor diet in America without knowing this full well yourself. Here's a good start. Note that this study allowed people to list french fries as a serving of vegetables and people still couldn't make it; http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/2…
There are non-white communities where fat doesn't translate to poor body image at equally high rates to whites and some where it translates to much higher rates. There are none where it doesn't translate to poor body image at significant rates, and many Asian communities, not whites, lead the pack. So nice try, but no.
If you seriously need me to link you to a study, I will, but it's ridiculous that you'd try to take part in a conversation about poor diet in America without knowing this full well yourself. Here's a good start. Note that this study allowed people to list french fries as a serving of vegetables and people still couldn't make it; http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/2…
There are non-white communities where fat doesn't translate to poor body image at equally high rates to whites and some where it translates to much higher rates. There are none where it doesn't translate to poor body image at significant rates, and many Asian communities, not whites, lead the pack. So nice try, but no.
122
@119, mmmcheezy: it may be true that "not everyone" can help "their" weight, but most can, if it's important to them.
The nerve on which many defensive overweight people seem to have been struck is telling: a statement of fact (most overweight people are capable of losing weight) is interpreted as "Therefore, we think you're a bad person because you don't." That may be true for some critics, but not for all, certainly not me. I believe that in a free country there is no significant moral dimension to an adult citizen choosing to be overweight, even morbidly so, as long as he or she takes the consequences for being so.
What's reprehensible (and what is, I believe, the point Dan is trying to sink into people's heads) is that there IS a moral dimension to parents who, through ignorance or laziness or just plain apathy, force that choice onto their children.
The tiny percentage or fraction of a percentage of people who have glandular disorders that prevent one from losing weight: you have my sympathy. But it's hard to pick you out of the crowd of 150-lb sixth graders at KFC getting a bucket of wings and a 32-oz soda each.
The nerve on which many defensive overweight people seem to have been struck is telling: a statement of fact (most overweight people are capable of losing weight) is interpreted as "Therefore, we think you're a bad person because you don't." That may be true for some critics, but not for all, certainly not me. I believe that in a free country there is no significant moral dimension to an adult citizen choosing to be overweight, even morbidly so, as long as he or she takes the consequences for being so.
What's reprehensible (and what is, I believe, the point Dan is trying to sink into people's heads) is that there IS a moral dimension to parents who, through ignorance or laziness or just plain apathy, force that choice onto their children.
The tiny percentage or fraction of a percentage of people who have glandular disorders that prevent one from losing weight: you have my sympathy. But it's hard to pick you out of the crowd of 150-lb sixth graders at KFC getting a bucket of wings and a 32-oz soda each.
123
@108 - "I also lived in such a neighborhood once. I took the bus."
Yeah, but in this particular neighborhood that I'm talking about, the bus was slow, out-of-the-way and unreliable - you're just gonna have to take my word for it that getting to the supermarket was very difficult without a car.
@109 - "Poor people have less access to healthy food or less time to prepare it? Sure, but poverty is also linked to many crimes, and would you agree with those criminals being allowed to use a "poverty defense" in court? Didn't think so."
It's always tricky to sort out the responsibilities of the individual from the responsibilities of the collective; holding someone responsible for what they've done shouldn't mean ignoring the influence that their environment may have had on them. So, in this case: no, I don't think a criminal should be able to mount a "poverty defense," but I do think that a huge amount of the crime in our society emerges out of poverty, and that if there were overall less poverty and more opportunity, there would also be less crime; I don't think that's a very controversial or quarrelsome position to hold...
I'm not saying that everyone should be delivered a fancy, nutritious, tax-funded dinner by the mailman every day, but I do think that access to decent food – much like access to decent education and decent health care – is growing more and more split along class lines, and that as long as this is true, obesity will be a big issue.
Yeah, but in this particular neighborhood that I'm talking about, the bus was slow, out-of-the-way and unreliable - you're just gonna have to take my word for it that getting to the supermarket was very difficult without a car.
@109 - "Poor people have less access to healthy food or less time to prepare it? Sure, but poverty is also linked to many crimes, and would you agree with those criminals being allowed to use a "poverty defense" in court? Didn't think so."
It's always tricky to sort out the responsibilities of the individual from the responsibilities of the collective; holding someone responsible for what they've done shouldn't mean ignoring the influence that their environment may have had on them. So, in this case: no, I don't think a criminal should be able to mount a "poverty defense," but I do think that a huge amount of the crime in our society emerges out of poverty, and that if there were overall less poverty and more opportunity, there would also be less crime; I don't think that's a very controversial or quarrelsome position to hold...
I'm not saying that everyone should be delivered a fancy, nutritious, tax-funded dinner by the mailman every day, but I do think that access to decent food – much like access to decent education and decent health care – is growing more and more split along class lines, and that as long as this is true, obesity will be a big issue.
124
@109/merula Do you have any resources for people who are trying to eat healthy food on budget? I was raised on a diet of boxed foods and I'm trying very hard to change this, but it's hard to pick up this kind of thing on your own. I would really love some help.
125
there are ways of going about criticizing lazy or unthinking parents without generalizing against and bashing a whole community.
127
yep people are obese. we as a society need to face the obesity epidemic head on. doctors need to be involved. the food industry as it is needs to be completely dismantled. we are being poisoned by our food for PROFIT. the only thing that matters in this country is money. millions of pre-packaged and fast food options are packed with sugar, fat, and salt to make them highly addictive. eat some. eat some more. we're eating and eating and eating. many people eat for emotional reasons and until people stop eating addictive foods and face their emotions and problems without eating them, the obesity epidemic will continue.
making fun of obese people, especially obese children, will do nothing to stop the obesity epidemic. shaming obese people will do nothing to stop the obesity epidemic. nasty comments about/toward obese people, shunning obese people, laughing at obese people, making jokes about/toward obese people, being disgusted by obese people, and walking around feeling smug and superior to obese people will do nothing to stop the obesity epidemic.
i think it's pretty evident that dan savage is an asshole. why anyone continues to care about anything he has to say is beyond me. he's just a gay fucking asshole.
making fun of obese people, especially obese children, will do nothing to stop the obesity epidemic. shaming obese people will do nothing to stop the obesity epidemic. nasty comments about/toward obese people, shunning obese people, laughing at obese people, making jokes about/toward obese people, being disgusted by obese people, and walking around feeling smug and superior to obese people will do nothing to stop the obesity epidemic.
i think it's pretty evident that dan savage is an asshole. why anyone continues to care about anything he has to say is beyond me. he's just a gay fucking asshole.
128
Lorran: The "Looney Spoons" and "Crazy Plates" cookbooks are great for beginning cooks looking to eat healthy. The "More with Less" cookbook has a mixture of beginning and intermediate recipes, but is great for eating on a budget.
131
@ 122, it's fascinating to me that while the medical community hasn't actually determined how many overweight people could attain and maintain a standard goal weight through healthy diet, you somehow have. You should take that comment and all of the peer-reviewed research you did to come to that conclusion and get published.
132
@129 I don't have fingers. I type with a pointer I hold in my mouth and type each letter individually.
133
Jesus. We need to stop treating junk food like a childish habit and start treating it like what it is: a substance addiction. You can't just say, "Stop doing drugs!" to poor folks in ghettos, then shake your head, point, laugh, shame, insult, when they don't. It's stupid and it's wrong.
134
So, amazonvera, what is the problem with American obese people that makes them special compared to other obese people? Is it all genetics? You bring up science, but just look up Hopi or Native obesity. It's well-studied. What happened to them that's made them fat? Was it genetic there; were they fat like that before? Or was it dramatic changes in activity and in diet--a diet that their genetics can't really process?
You seem to approach denying the real importance of a diet and exercise regimen or *preventing* obesity by promoting a healthy diet and an active lifestyle that might be a little more than a dance class here or there and eating whole grain bread.
You seem to approach denying the real importance of a diet and exercise regimen or *preventing* obesity by promoting a healthy diet and an active lifestyle that might be a little more than a dance class here or there and eating whole grain bread.
135
@ 127 - "i think it's pretty evident that dan savage is an asshole. why anyone continues to care about anything he has to say is beyond me. he's just a gay fucking asshole."
So... why exactly do you keep reading slog and commenting, then? Just asking,
So... why exactly do you keep reading slog and commenting, then? Just asking,
136
There are a bunch of annoying people in this thread who keep suggesting that there is not a definitive link between obesity and major cardiovascular morbidity. Please enjoy these 16 studies, all of which are peer-reviewed and published in top tier journals.
RGW MD.
1. Stevens, J, Cai, J, Pamuk, ER, et al. The effect of age on the association between body-mass index and mortality. N Engl J Med 1998; 338:1.
2. Calle, EE, Thun, MJ, Petrelli, JM, et al. Body-mass index and mortality in a prospective cohort of U.S. adults. N Engl J Med 1999; 341:1097.
3. Manson, JE, Willett, WC, Stampfer, MJ, et al. Body weight and mortality among women. N Engl J Med 1995; 333:677.
4. Wei, M, Kampert, JB, Barlow, CE, et al. Relationship between low cardiorespiratory fitness and mortality in normal-weight, overweight, and obese men. JAMA 1999; 282:1547.
5. Lee, CD, Blair, SN, Jackson, AS. Cardiorespiratory fitness, body composition, and all-cause and cardiovascular disease mortality in men. Am J Clin Nutr 1999; 69:373.
6. Jousilahti, P, Tuomilehto, J, Vartiainen, E, et al. Body weight, cardiovascular risk factors, and coronary mortality. 15-year follow-up of middle-aged men and women in eastern Finland. Circulation 1996; 93:1372.
7. Yan, LL, Daviglus, ML, Liu, K, et al. Midlife body mass index and hospitalization and mortality in older age. JAMA 2006; 295:190.
8. Gu, D, He, J, Duan, X, et al. Body weight and mortality among men and women in China. JAMA 2006; 295:776.
9. Adams, KF, Schatzkin, A, Harris, TB, et al. Overweight, obesity, and mortality in a large prospective cohort of persons 50 to 71 years old. N Engl J Med 2006; 355:763.
10. Jee, SH, Sull, JW, Park, J, et al. Body-mass index and mortality in Korean men and women. N Engl J Med 2006; 355:779.
11. McTigue, K, Larson, JC, Valoski, A, et al. Mortality and cardiac and vascular outcomes in extremely obese women. JAMA 2006; 296:79.
12. Freedman, DM, Ron, E, Ballard-Barbash, R, et al. Body mass index and all-cause mortality in a nationwide US cohort. Int J Obes (Lond) 2006; 30:822.
13. Price, GM, Uauy, R, Breeze, E, et al. Weight, shape, and mortality risk in older persons: elevated waist-hip ratio, not high body mass index, is associated with a greater risk of death. Am J Clin Nutr 2006; 84:449.
14. Pischon, T, Boeing, H, Hoffmann, K, et al. General and abdominal adiposity and risk of death in Europe. N Engl J Med 2008; 359:2105.
15. Prospective Studies, Collaboration, Whitlock, G, Lewington, S, et al. Body-mass index and cause-specific mortality in 900 000 adults: collaborative analyses of 57 prospective studies. Lancet 2009; 373:1083.
16. Flegal, KM, Graubard, BI, Williamson, DF, Gail, MH. Cause-specific excess deaths associated with underweight, overweight, and obesity. JAMA 2007; 298:2028.
More...
RGW MD.
1. Stevens, J, Cai, J, Pamuk, ER, et al. The effect of age on the association between body-mass index and mortality. N Engl J Med 1998; 338:1.
2. Calle, EE, Thun, MJ, Petrelli, JM, et al. Body-mass index and mortality in a prospective cohort of U.S. adults. N Engl J Med 1999; 341:1097.
3. Manson, JE, Willett, WC, Stampfer, MJ, et al. Body weight and mortality among women. N Engl J Med 1995; 333:677.
4. Wei, M, Kampert, JB, Barlow, CE, et al. Relationship between low cardiorespiratory fitness and mortality in normal-weight, overweight, and obese men. JAMA 1999; 282:1547.
5. Lee, CD, Blair, SN, Jackson, AS. Cardiorespiratory fitness, body composition, and all-cause and cardiovascular disease mortality in men. Am J Clin Nutr 1999; 69:373.
6. Jousilahti, P, Tuomilehto, J, Vartiainen, E, et al. Body weight, cardiovascular risk factors, and coronary mortality. 15-year follow-up of middle-aged men and women in eastern Finland. Circulation 1996; 93:1372.
7. Yan, LL, Daviglus, ML, Liu, K, et al. Midlife body mass index and hospitalization and mortality in older age. JAMA 2006; 295:190.
8. Gu, D, He, J, Duan, X, et al. Body weight and mortality among men and women in China. JAMA 2006; 295:776.
9. Adams, KF, Schatzkin, A, Harris, TB, et al. Overweight, obesity, and mortality in a large prospective cohort of persons 50 to 71 years old. N Engl J Med 2006; 355:763.
10. Jee, SH, Sull, JW, Park, J, et al. Body-mass index and mortality in Korean men and women. N Engl J Med 2006; 355:779.
11. McTigue, K, Larson, JC, Valoski, A, et al. Mortality and cardiac and vascular outcomes in extremely obese women. JAMA 2006; 296:79.
12. Freedman, DM, Ron, E, Ballard-Barbash, R, et al. Body mass index and all-cause mortality in a nationwide US cohort. Int J Obes (Lond) 2006; 30:822.
13. Price, GM, Uauy, R, Breeze, E, et al. Weight, shape, and mortality risk in older persons: elevated waist-hip ratio, not high body mass index, is associated with a greater risk of death. Am J Clin Nutr 2006; 84:449.
14. Pischon, T, Boeing, H, Hoffmann, K, et al. General and abdominal adiposity and risk of death in Europe. N Engl J Med 2008; 359:2105.
15. Prospective Studies, Collaboration, Whitlock, G, Lewington, S, et al. Body-mass index and cause-specific mortality in 900 000 adults: collaborative analyses of 57 prospective studies. Lancet 2009; 373:1083.
16. Flegal, KM, Graubard, BI, Williamson, DF, Gail, MH. Cause-specific excess deaths associated with underweight, overweight, and obesity. JAMA 2007; 298:2028.
138
@ 134, There's nothing special about them, why do you ask?
@ 136, as an "MD," I'm sure you understand that correlation is not causation. Those studies show correlation, and I don't see anyone denying a high rate of correlation.
@ 136, as an "MD," I'm sure you understand that correlation is not causation. Those studies show correlation, and I don't see anyone denying a high rate of correlation.
139
@ 123 - Yet it's a position many people totally refute, especially in the US. (Some other countries have realized that socioeconomic equality lowers crime.)
My point was: if that type of defense is not allowed for petty thieves or street drug dealers, why do some people who are obese think that it's a sufficient argument to get them off the hook, i.e. they have no responsibility whatsoever concerning their condition and no one should ever, ever suggest that they do because that's MEAN. Oh my gosh.
(Obesity has consequences for society, as much as petty theft and drug use, I hope you're aware of that.)
Poverty has no causal effect on weight gain. It's correlated to it, but it doesn't cause it (otherwise almost all Africans and Asians would be obese). Hormonal problems sometimes have a causal effect, but in actual numbers, very rarely. These are non-arguments.
The solution to both problem is the same: more education, more resources, etc., etc. But just saying "it's not my fault I'm that way" does even less to solve the problem than singing sarcastic songs about it. A lot of people need a slap in the face or a kick in the butt before they do something, you know. Especially if that something is change.
And for the record: I'm into bears and chubs, so I really don't mind extra kilos. What I can't stand is that victim attitude when the problem is obviously self-inflicted. (By that I mean that I'm ONLY talking about overeaters here.)
My point was: if that type of defense is not allowed for petty thieves or street drug dealers, why do some people who are obese think that it's a sufficient argument to get them off the hook, i.e. they have no responsibility whatsoever concerning their condition and no one should ever, ever suggest that they do because that's MEAN. Oh my gosh.
(Obesity has consequences for society, as much as petty theft and drug use, I hope you're aware of that.)
Poverty has no causal effect on weight gain. It's correlated to it, but it doesn't cause it (otherwise almost all Africans and Asians would be obese). Hormonal problems sometimes have a causal effect, but in actual numbers, very rarely. These are non-arguments.
The solution to both problem is the same: more education, more resources, etc., etc. But just saying "it's not my fault I'm that way" does even less to solve the problem than singing sarcastic songs about it. A lot of people need a slap in the face or a kick in the butt before they do something, you know. Especially if that something is change.
And for the record: I'm into bears and chubs, so I really don't mind extra kilos. What I can't stand is that victim attitude when the problem is obviously self-inflicted. (By that I mean that I'm ONLY talking about overeaters here.)
140
laurelgardner @133, I don't think anyone's disagreeing that junk food can be an addiction for some people. The point of the song is, just like it'd be shitty and abusive for a crack addict to get her child addicted at age 5, it's shitty and abusive for a food addict to get her child addicted at age 5.
141
@110 He also pulled a citation from 3 years ago. I believe Dan specified the previous 12 months for proof that he's a raging hater of the overweight.
142
Actually, apropos Dan's current challenge at the top of his blog (which is closed to comments, so I assume the answers to the challenge go in this thread), I've seen a lot of accusations that he makes fun of obese people, etc. So I've been reading all the entries in this thread dated since 10 am, when he issued his challenge...
Alrighty, I have found a grand total of um... three posts referenced here... they are. I'm using blockquotes to keep things organized, not really to indicate any actual quotage, btw.
But wait. In looking at the last link there, I see that's what Shakes was quoting. So the final tally is...
*drumroll* (hope I did it right, since I can't hear it)
One.
So please tell me, y'all, what part of that is continued, ongoing, and merciless bullying of fat people?
You know what? Excepting various medical issues, "No, you certainly can’t say that you’ll lose weight if you stop eating fast food, get more exercise, and eat more vegetables. It’s true, of course, but you’re not allowed to say it." is a perfectly valid opinion to hold, and moreover, is true for the majority of people out there.
To be honest, there's far more mocking and bullying of fat people coming from commenters here than coming from Dan.
Now, can we return to our regularly scheduled SlogFest?
...oh wait...
More...
Alrighty, I have found a grand total of um... three posts referenced here... they are. I'm using blockquotes to keep things organized, not really to indicate any actual quotage, btw.
http://www.violentacres.com/archives/312…
I'm at a loss on this one. Doesn't seem to be something posted by Dan Savage, though it's certainly an example of fatphobia, yes...
Tally: 0
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2…Tally so far: 1
Someone on Shakes complaining about Dan Savage... OK... let's see what s/he references...
OK, seems to be a discussion of a post by Kate Harding (http://kateharding.net/2008/01/11/open-f…) that Dan referenced.
Huh. I'm going around in circles here... The Shakes article quotes snippets from Dan's article but doesn't seem to link to it directly (and it appears it might not have been on Slog). But let's assume that it was a fatphobic post.
And then we have:
http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/01/obes…
Aha! OK. Um. You know. It's not incendiary. It doesn't make fun of obese people. It says this: "No, you certainly can’t say that you’ll lose weight if you stop eating fast food, get more exercise, and eat more vegetables. It’s true, of course, but you’re not allowed to say it." Is that making fun of fat people? Can we disagree with someone without being accused of making fun of them?
Maybe the earlier part: "So says 'health economist' Eric Finkelstein in his new book The Fattening of America, which argues that affluence and advanced medical care leads some people—a majority in the USA, it seems—to choose obesity. You can read the article here, you can find the fat activist/acceptance types fuming here."
Well, he's clearly phrased it to indicate he disagrees with it. But I gotta say, disagreeing with someone isn't de facto mocking them or making fun of them or whatever. If you're bent out of shape over being told that you're "fuming" about something or that you're called a quote-unquote health economist is being mocked, well then I'll add it to the tally.
Tally so far: 2
But wait. In looking at the last link there, I see that's what Shakes was quoting. So the final tally is...
*drumroll* (hope I did it right, since I can't hear it)
One.
So please tell me, y'all, what part of that is continued, ongoing, and merciless bullying of fat people?
You know what? Excepting various medical issues, "No, you certainly can’t say that you’ll lose weight if you stop eating fast food, get more exercise, and eat more vegetables. It’s true, of course, but you’re not allowed to say it." is a perfectly valid opinion to hold, and moreover, is true for the majority of people out there.
To be honest, there's far more mocking and bullying of fat people coming from commenters here than coming from Dan.
Now, can we return to our regularly scheduled SlogFest?
...oh wait...
143
Actually Amazonvera, many of these studies do purport or attempt to show causation. Clearly you didn't read any of them.
Please allow me to state this as bluntly as possible. Being fat, or worse, obese, or even worse, super-obese (an actual medical term I sadly have to use far too frequently) is unhealthy, and makes you unhealthier.
Can it not simply be accepted a priori as the most common sense idea in the world, that if you carry 200 pounds of extra weight, that that is going to cause joint problems (osteoarthritis)? Is that not the most obvious, insanely easy fact to comprehend? If a bridge is meant to carry loads of 5 tons but it regularly carries loads of 12, do you not think this is problematic?
Please allow me to state this as bluntly as possible. Being fat, or worse, obese, or even worse, super-obese (an actual medical term I sadly have to use far too frequently) is unhealthy, and makes you unhealthier.
Can it not simply be accepted a priori as the most common sense idea in the world, that if you carry 200 pounds of extra weight, that that is going to cause joint problems (osteoarthritis)? Is that not the most obvious, insanely easy fact to comprehend? If a bridge is meant to carry loads of 5 tons but it regularly carries loads of 12, do you not think this is problematic?
144
Walk a mile in a person's shoes before you judge them. Bullying the parents of fat children is bullying the kids. The children hear that and they feel guilty for the way they are. I was a 300+ pound pre-teen and I've only gotten fatter since then. Why haven't I lost the weight? Because I'm a happy person. I don't dread my obesity, I celebrate it. Just like somebody who has a chiseled body stands out in a crowd of weak bellied sheep, I stand out as a giant. I've had people tell me they looked at fat people as less than human cattle... and I made them see more. I've been told by immediate family members, in all sincerity, to use crack cocaine/crystal meth as a diet aid... but I chose donuts. And every day, I'm told by strangers that I am going to die young. Thanks for that, I totes needed a reminder.
Society puts a heavy guilt on the fat. Then there are empires built around fatty foods. Giant signs in the sky with cheeseburgers on them. All people are different, it is easier for certain people to stay thin then it is for others to just keep from being morbidly obese. For you BODY NAZIS to judge everyone else is wrong. IF YOU REALLY CARE ABOUT THE EPIDEMIC, do something positive to thwart it. Casting blame on a parent is harsh and doesn't help the matter. Claiming giving a donut to a fat kid is child abuse may seem just to you, but try keeping a donut from a kid who craves the sweet. When the average child enjoys a donut, it's a classic treat. When a fat kid enjoys a donut, it's a monstrosity of health.
THAT'S FUCKED.
Society puts a heavy guilt on the fat. Then there are empires built around fatty foods. Giant signs in the sky with cheeseburgers on them. All people are different, it is easier for certain people to stay thin then it is for others to just keep from being morbidly obese. For you BODY NAZIS to judge everyone else is wrong. IF YOU REALLY CARE ABOUT THE EPIDEMIC, do something positive to thwart it. Casting blame on a parent is harsh and doesn't help the matter. Claiming giving a donut to a fat kid is child abuse may seem just to you, but try keeping a donut from a kid who craves the sweet. When the average child enjoys a donut, it's a classic treat. When a fat kid enjoys a donut, it's a monstrosity of health.
THAT'S FUCKED.
145
"purport or attempt to show" =/= "proves," "confirms," "establishes." I can purport or attempt to show all day that a correlation I find in a lot of cases is the same as causation, but that won't make it so.
Being fat does not make you unhealthy. Period. Many fat people live in excellent health for long, happy lives (just as many thin people have heart attacks and die before their children are grown). They are not unicorns or fairies or anthropomorphized bunnies that bring children chocolate. They're real people.
If you are 200 lbs overweight and don't have some other seriously compensating muscle development, etc., yeah, you'll probably have joint problems. Most fat people aren't anything near 200 lbs overweight, though, and that still wouldn't address how they got fat, what they ate, or how much less they could weigh if they ate differently. And I'm looking forward to hearing all about how you direct similar amounts of outraged energy toward people who don't get enough calcium, putting them at risk of development of and death from osteoporosis, a much, much more common issue than joint problems in people who are 200 lbs. overweight.
Being fat does not make you unhealthy. Period. Many fat people live in excellent health for long, happy lives (just as many thin people have heart attacks and die before their children are grown). They are not unicorns or fairies or anthropomorphized bunnies that bring children chocolate. They're real people.
If you are 200 lbs overweight and don't have some other seriously compensating muscle development, etc., yeah, you'll probably have joint problems. Most fat people aren't anything near 200 lbs overweight, though, and that still wouldn't address how they got fat, what they ate, or how much less they could weigh if they ate differently. And I'm looking forward to hearing all about how you direct similar amounts of outraged energy toward people who don't get enough calcium, putting them at risk of development of and death from osteoporosis, a much, much more common issue than joint problems in people who are 200 lbs. overweight.
146
@ 142, for one thing, you're skipping a pretty obvious example that's been mentioned at length in the comments. I'll give to think about that one.
For another, I hope you're also keeping a running log about the "hundreds" of anti-gay and racist remarks from the past year that Dan needs to supply so we can determine if rightwing nutters actually bully anyone to Dan's own standard, because apparently there's a 200 incidents per annum quota now.
For another, I hope you're also keeping a running log about the "hundreds" of anti-gay and racist remarks from the past year that Dan needs to supply so we can determine if rightwing nutters actually bully anyone to Dan's own standard, because apparently there's a 200 incidents per annum quota now.
147
amazonvera, you've asked people to provide evidence and then escape under the claim that correlation does not imply causation without actually reading the studies. While it is true that there is no definitive causative factor, the suspicion is and always has been diet and activity. I also hold out for environment in general being a factor.
But then you make unqualified claims like the following: "Being fat does not make you unhealthy. Period. Many fat people live in excellent health for long, happy lives (just as many thin people have heart attacks and die before their children are grown)." Where's the field of literature and studies you have to prove this? Have there been studies like this performed surveying obese people at end-of-life? It's an interesting claim that diet cannot cause obesity while labs are making a lot of money selling DIO models to study obesity!
Also, you haven't really answered my question about cultural differences wrt obesity. Why has creeping acceptance of American diet caused Natives to become the most obese population on the planet and why are there more obese people in the US than Asia or France?
But then you make unqualified claims like the following: "Being fat does not make you unhealthy. Period. Many fat people live in excellent health for long, happy lives (just as many thin people have heart attacks and die before their children are grown)." Where's the field of literature and studies you have to prove this? Have there been studies like this performed surveying obese people at end-of-life? It's an interesting claim that diet cannot cause obesity while labs are making a lot of money selling DIO models to study obesity!
Also, you haven't really answered my question about cultural differences wrt obesity. Why has creeping acceptance of American diet caused Natives to become the most obese population on the planet and why are there more obese people in the US than Asia or France?
148
A study is never going to be as accurate as a personal experience. A personal experience will never be as convincing to the masses as a study. Go ahead and think what you want to think. At the end of the day, if it were so easy to lose the weight, wouldn't more people be thin?
You can't make somebody lose weight. You can make their life better by not casting guilt and death over their already heavy minds.
You can't make somebody lose weight. You can make their life better by not casting guilt and death over their already heavy minds.
149
Billy: amazonvera was initially the one claiming that she had scientific evidence on her side. You're right though. We're all deluded by our personal experience. Maybe more Biggest Loser and less science is what we need.
Also,
"Claiming giving a donut to a fat kid is child abuse may seem just to you, but try keeping a donut from a kid who craves the sweet"
That's fucking called parenting, Billy! Doing the hard stuff, like telling the kid not to eat donuts is the function of the grown-ups in the relationship.
Also,
"Claiming giving a donut to a fat kid is child abuse may seem just to you, but try keeping a donut from a kid who craves the sweet"
That's fucking called parenting, Billy! Doing the hard stuff, like telling the kid not to eat donuts is the function of the grown-ups in the relationship.
150
Dan, you're not mean to fat people. God, why the hell is everyone so sensitive? Can't Dan post something asking parents not to kill their kids with junk food without having everyone jump down his throat?
151
@ 147 Here's one, though if you don't have a journal membership, You'll only be able to see the abstract, including the statement "approximately 30% of obese individuals maintain healthy cardiometabolic profiles": http://journals.lww.com/co-clinicalnutri…
Again, though, I'm really surprised that some of you are passing yourselves off as informed people about this topic when you need links for some pretty basic concepts. Also, please add "suspicion" to the list of words that don't mean "proof" or "causation." Are you serious with this?
Sorry, you asked what made Americans special and said nothing about how or in what way. To answer, no one knows. There are a lot of hypothesis about diet (subsidizing corn syrup can't be helping), genetics (we're pretty much an entire nation spawned from peasant laborers siphoned off from other national populations who had to thrive when malnourished until their early deaths), and social sciences (that whole only-industrialized-nation-without-universal-healthcare thing). Like the causes of obesity anywhere, I'm sure it's a combination of all of the above depending on the individual.
Not one person has said that diet can't cause obesity. What the fuck are you talking about?
Again, though, I'm really surprised that some of you are passing yourselves off as informed people about this topic when you need links for some pretty basic concepts. Also, please add "suspicion" to the list of words that don't mean "proof" or "causation." Are you serious with this?
Sorry, you asked what made Americans special and said nothing about how or in what way. To answer, no one knows. There are a lot of hypothesis about diet (subsidizing corn syrup can't be helping), genetics (we're pretty much an entire nation spawned from peasant laborers siphoned off from other national populations who had to thrive when malnourished until their early deaths), and social sciences (that whole only-industrialized-nation-without-universal-healthcare thing). Like the causes of obesity anywhere, I'm sure it's a combination of all of the above depending on the individual.
Not one person has said that diet can't cause obesity. What the fuck are you talking about?
152
"Being fat does not make you unhealthy. Period. Many fat people live in excellent health for long, happy lives (just as many thin people have heart attacks and die before their children are grown). They are not unicorns or fairies or anthropomorphized bunnies that bring children chocolate. They're real people. "
Let's change a few words-
[Having cancer] does not make you unhealthy. Period. Many [people with cancer] live in excellent health for long, happy lives (just as many [people without cancer] have heart attacks and die before their children are grown). They are not unicorns or fairies or anthropomorphized bunnies that bring children chocolate. They're real people.
This statement is just as ridiculous as your first one. Arguing that the existence of some fat people without medical problems (just as there are some people living with cancer without any other problems or effects from it) is not a convincing or meaningful argument, when the overwhelming majority of people who are fat (or who have cancer) do have significant morbidity and mortality.
And as far as this statement?
"And I'm looking forward to hearing all about how you direct similar amounts of outraged energy toward people who don't get enough calcium, putting them at risk of development of and death from osteoporosis, a much, much more common issue than joint problems in people who are 200 lbs. overweight."
I don't direct outraged energy towards fat people. I direct it towards willfully ignorant people, like you. I do not harangue patients for weight loss, as I know simply telling someone to lose weight is in no way effective. If they want to lose weight, and are motivated to do so, I am happy to provide counseling on exercise and nutrition. But fat people don't get me riled up like this. People like you, who deny basic, commonsense science do.
More...
Let's change a few words-
[Having cancer] does not make you unhealthy. Period. Many [people with cancer] live in excellent health for long, happy lives (just as many [people without cancer] have heart attacks and die before their children are grown). They are not unicorns or fairies or anthropomorphized bunnies that bring children chocolate. They're real people.
This statement is just as ridiculous as your first one. Arguing that the existence of some fat people without medical problems (just as there are some people living with cancer without any other problems or effects from it) is not a convincing or meaningful argument, when the overwhelming majority of people who are fat (or who have cancer) do have significant morbidity and mortality.
And as far as this statement?
"And I'm looking forward to hearing all about how you direct similar amounts of outraged energy toward people who don't get enough calcium, putting them at risk of development of and death from osteoporosis, a much, much more common issue than joint problems in people who are 200 lbs. overweight."
I don't direct outraged energy towards fat people. I direct it towards willfully ignorant people, like you. I do not harangue patients for weight loss, as I know simply telling someone to lose weight is in no way effective. If they want to lose weight, and are motivated to do so, I am happy to provide counseling on exercise and nutrition. But fat people don't get me riled up like this. People like you, who deny basic, commonsense science do.
153
Wow. Current Opinion in Clinical Nutrition and Metabolic Care. Sounds like the next JAMA or Lancet.
Snide remarks about your journal's pedigree aside, I find it amusing how you left out this sentence from the conclusion:
"Whether these individuals remain at risk for the host of other obesity-related conditions such as certain cancers, sleep disorders, reproductive problems, and musculoskeletal disorders is likely but has not been investigated."
Snide remarks about your journal's pedigree aside, I find it amusing how you left out this sentence from the conclusion:
"Whether these individuals remain at risk for the host of other obesity-related conditions such as certain cancers, sleep disorders, reproductive problems, and musculoskeletal disorders is likely but has not been investigated."
154
151: "What the fuck are you talking about?" Nice way to raise the discourse. Just kidding. I was addressing this:
"if you still think that weight is universally determined by calories in vs. calories out and that health issues only cause a 6% body weight differential, then I think you need to re-read all of that material because some really basic facts have either been distorted or never sank in in the first place."
Which is totally absurd. Btw, who said weight is *universally* determined by calories consumed vs. calories expended?
You treat your view point as if it is a self-evident truth backed up by "the leading experts in the field." But it's not.
"if you still think that weight is universally determined by calories in vs. calories out and that health issues only cause a 6% body weight differential, then I think you need to re-read all of that material because some really basic facts have either been distorted or never sank in in the first place."
Which is totally absurd. Btw, who said weight is *universally* determined by calories consumed vs. calories expended?
You treat your view point as if it is a self-evident truth backed up by "the leading experts in the field." But it's not.
155
I have no patience whatsoever for fat apologists, but come ON, Dan. If you want people to take your "It Gets Better" movement seriously and stop bullying gay kids, you have to use better judgment when choosing your public posts.
True, this song is obviously meant for adults and is directed (mostly) towards irresponsible adults, but by posting it you send a clear message that you think making fun of fat people is o.k. A message that no doubt filters down to kids and (in some small way) perpetuates the bullying of fat kids. If someone posted a song titled "Gay Men Are Gross Because of That Up-The-Butt Thing" and said, "Every time I read something about gay men this song starts playing in my head. Yes, it's harsh, brutal even, very nearly bullying. But... um... you gotta admit that there's a grain of poop or two of truth to it." would you be o.k. with that?
I'm saying this as a victim of bullying and a staunch supporter of the It Gets Better Project. If you want people who don't already agree with you to take your anti-bullying message of LGBT youth seriously, you can't appear to endorse name-calling and harassment of fat people, regardless of how they got that way.
True, this song is obviously meant for adults and is directed (mostly) towards irresponsible adults, but by posting it you send a clear message that you think making fun of fat people is o.k. A message that no doubt filters down to kids and (in some small way) perpetuates the bullying of fat kids. If someone posted a song titled "Gay Men Are Gross Because of That Up-The-Butt Thing" and said, "Every time I read something about gay men this song starts playing in my head. Yes, it's harsh, brutal even, very nearly bullying. But... um... you gotta admit that there's a grain of poop or two of truth to it." would you be o.k. with that?
I'm saying this as a victim of bullying and a staunch supporter of the It Gets Better Project. If you want people who don't already agree with you to take your anti-bullying message of LGBT youth seriously, you can't appear to endorse name-calling and harassment of fat people, regardless of how they got that way.
156
@dirac, I understand the concept of parenting. It's what lets some people beat their children and others ship them off to boarding schools. It's also what lets fat kids have a fucking donut. I will give a fat kid a donut 100% of the time.
I'm not a physician. I don't make it my job to get fat people thin. I make it my job to make fat people happy. Give them the power of self confidence. The power of looking beautiful or feeling good about themselves despite being a fucking lardo.
If you aren't a physician, I suggest you do the same.
I'm not a physician. I don't make it my job to get fat people thin. I make it my job to make fat people happy. Give them the power of self confidence. The power of looking beautiful or feeling good about themselves despite being a fucking lardo.
If you aren't a physician, I suggest you do the same.
157
@128/Canadian Nurse, Thanks so much! I bought Looney Spoons ($5 used including shipping on Amazon! Woo woo!) and I'll take a look at the other two.
158
Mr Savage - Keep up the message! I used to own several fast food restaurants & made a very nice living at it, too - although it did require long days. I sold my stores for two reasons. I was about to become a father & wanted to stay home with my kids. But, additionally, I couldn't take the frustration of watching parents (usually dads - I found moms to be much stricter on sizing & product choices) buy large cookie dough Blizzards for their kids & combining that with an order of onion rings & ranch dressing for dipping. Over a five year period, I watched many, many kids become obese. There's nothing wrong with the occasional ice cream treat & only a parental bully would favor a blanket denial of a DQ product. But, 8 year olds don't need 21ozs. of cookie dough blizzard which comes in at over 1000 calories. I've been on the front lines of this battle & have seen the walking wounded, kids literally so overweight they're out of breath walking from the parking lot to the restaurant counter. Don't stop your message - you literally might save a kid's life through this messaging, just as you may with your It Gets Better project.
159
@155 really nailed it. The issue at hand is not the gritty details of how the US got fat, whether it should lose weight, or the best way to do so--a lot of the commenters here are being sidetracked with debating this pointless clutter. It's whether an anti-bullying activist can be taken seriously when he exhibits the exact same bigoted mentality he criticizes (see: hypocrisy).
Either it's okay to make fun of teased and persecuted groups (gay fat trans black indian handicapped whatever) and drive them to suicide, or it's not okay to make fun of them and drive them to suicide. You can't have this cake both ways.
You can't argue that expressing anti-fat biases and engaging in fat-shaming doesn't make you into the same ugly bigot we see when we look at dumbass Christians criticizing gays for being sinful and wrong. How can you be in such denial regarding the OBVIOUS parallels being drawn between yourself and anti-gay bigots?
In my earlier post, I specified that you have derided both fat and trans people. You can't argue against that. I called out every single instance of your QUITE RECENT trans-hate, until you stopped (thank god). If you can't rid yourself of these ugly biases (and I don't purport to change what's inside your head, nor do I really care) then just keep your mouth shut. Give the appearance of being all-inclusive, even if you really are not.
Stick to what you're good at. For the sake of fuck, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. Unless it's about Fred Phelps. Fuck that guy.
Whether you like it or not (and I'm sure you do), you have become a HIGHLY VISIBLE mouthpiece for the LGBT movement in America. You are probably the most visible spokesperson for any persecuted minority right now. Before you die, you will probably be more famous than MLK Jr. That is a HUGE FARKING RESPONSIBILITY. Please take it seriously.
I may come off overly strong here; it is because I care so deeply about your potential to help people. Don't hurt people at the same time just because they weren't born a member of your pet cause. I would be similarly outraged if you were hating on any persecuted minority group, not just transfolk and fatties.
Kids look up to you. When skinny gay kids (and adult trolls contained herein) read what you say about fat people and trans people, they internalize that it's okay to make fun of those groups. If trans kids or fat gay kids (or hell, fat trans kids) read what you're saying, they are more likely to KILL THEMSELVES.
So lie to save a life, even if you're holding back your gag reflex... just like you expect Christians to do when they see a married male couple holding hands, kissing in public, or filling out a health insurance application together.
More...
Either it's okay to make fun of teased and persecuted groups (gay fat trans black indian handicapped whatever) and drive them to suicide, or it's not okay to make fun of them and drive them to suicide. You can't have this cake both ways.
You can't argue that expressing anti-fat biases and engaging in fat-shaming doesn't make you into the same ugly bigot we see when we look at dumbass Christians criticizing gays for being sinful and wrong. How can you be in such denial regarding the OBVIOUS parallels being drawn between yourself and anti-gay bigots?
In my earlier post, I specified that you have derided both fat and trans people. You can't argue against that. I called out every single instance of your QUITE RECENT trans-hate, until you stopped (thank god). If you can't rid yourself of these ugly biases (and I don't purport to change what's inside your head, nor do I really care) then just keep your mouth shut. Give the appearance of being all-inclusive, even if you really are not.
Stick to what you're good at. For the sake of fuck, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. Unless it's about Fred Phelps. Fuck that guy.
Whether you like it or not (and I'm sure you do), you have become a HIGHLY VISIBLE mouthpiece for the LGBT movement in America. You are probably the most visible spokesperson for any persecuted minority right now. Before you die, you will probably be more famous than MLK Jr. That is a HUGE FARKING RESPONSIBILITY. Please take it seriously.
I may come off overly strong here; it is because I care so deeply about your potential to help people. Don't hurt people at the same time just because they weren't born a member of your pet cause. I would be similarly outraged if you were hating on any persecuted minority group, not just transfolk and fatties.
Kids look up to you. When skinny gay kids (and adult trolls contained herein) read what you say about fat people and trans people, they internalize that it's okay to make fun of those groups. If trans kids or fat gay kids (or hell, fat trans kids) read what you're saying, they are more likely to KILL THEMSELVES.
So lie to save a life, even if you're holding back your gag reflex... just like you expect Christians to do when they see a married male couple holding hands, kissing in public, or filling out a health insurance application together.
161
Why does this issue always have to be discussed in extremes? Yes, there are overweight people who eat right, exercise, and remain overweight (I used to be one of them). However, I SINCERELY doubt that the many obese children I see at fast food places are being fed nothing but fresh green veggies and whole wheat the other 364 days a year. Being chubby is one thing; hell, in America, being chubby, not skinny, is the new "normal". Being medically obese is an entirely different thing, and people can tell the difference. When a child is too large to fit in any high chairs or car seats that are made, THERE IS A PROBLEM. And it's not with their genetics. It's with their parents.
Speaking as someone who works with young adults, I can testify that very, very, very few parents are giving their children healthy meals, whether those children are fat or thin. But saying that the diets of an 85 lb twelve-year-old and a 250 lb twelve-year-old could be identical for all I know is just ridiculous. Genetics PREDISPOSE you towards a certain body type, in the same way that genetics predispose you towards certain cancers or other diseases like diabetes. I have a long history of diabetes in my family, but I can hopefully prevent getting it myself by exercising, eating right, and getting semi-regular blood tests to check my insulin levels. What I can't do is throw my hands up and go "oh well, I guess I'm doomed to be a diabetic!"
People using the genetics arguement are doing exactly that. Your genetics can make it hard to lose weight and easy to gain weight, but they don't FORCE you into obesity. Giving up and resigning yourself and all of your children to lifelong obesity is absolutely the wrong thing to do. Having a genetic history of obesity is a reason to work harder to stay in shape, not to work less or give up.
Also, our whole culture of "my child is a special little snowflake princess who needs to be coddled by EVERYONE" is a huge factor. When I was a child, my parents cooked vegetables for every meal and if I didn't clear my plate, I wasn't allowed to leave the table. These days, parents aren't willing to make their children eat things they don't like, and of course fast food and prepared foods taste better than vegetables and whole wheat.
I worked for a while at a daycare center preparing lunches, and parents would give LISTS to us of things their children would eat. Not things that their children were allergic to, or that made them sick, or even things they just didn't like. Lists of food that their children WOULD eat, and it was unacceptable to even think of giving their children anything that wasn't on the list. Seriously. They usually went something like, "My sweet Sarah is a picky eater. :) She will only eat easy mac, peanut butter and jelly on white bread (no crust), and extra cheese pizza (no other toppings)". This is COMMON.
When I was a child, if I was eating somewhere besides home, I was expected to clean my plate without complaint, and compliment whoever cooked it even if I hated it. The only excuse for not eating something was if it made me physically ill. I was a picky eater, but I was not allowed to ask for special accomodation, because it was rude and made extra work for whoever was cooking. The rule was, until I was old enough to cook my own meals, I would eat whatever was put in front of me unless it made me sick. Nowadays parents gasp in horror at the very idea and it's almost considered child abuse. If parents would stop coddling their children so much and make them eat the healthiest food they can afford, and make them join a sport (or just go swimming with them, or walking with them, or ANYTHING) being bullied over childhood obesity wouldn't be an issue because children wouldn't be obese.
Childhood obesity is the "big news" of the day because it's NEW. Twenty years ago it was extremely rare for children to be medically obese. Some were overweight, yes, and they did get teased, but no one was so huge that they couldn't fit into the chairs in the lunch room. If you'd suggested back then that the lone 250 lb kid maybe had a healthy diet at home you'd be laughed at. Fat isn't magnetically attracted to your body; it's not magic. When parents are fat, they need to look at themselves, and realize that their children, too, may be fat. Then they need to work HARDER, not LESS, to make sure their kids eat as healthy as possible and get as much exercise as possible (and see a doctor as often as possible). Being genetically predisposed towards obesity is not a good excuse to give up all effort to stay at a reasonable weight.
More...
Speaking as someone who works with young adults, I can testify that very, very, very few parents are giving their children healthy meals, whether those children are fat or thin. But saying that the diets of an 85 lb twelve-year-old and a 250 lb twelve-year-old could be identical for all I know is just ridiculous. Genetics PREDISPOSE you towards a certain body type, in the same way that genetics predispose you towards certain cancers or other diseases like diabetes. I have a long history of diabetes in my family, but I can hopefully prevent getting it myself by exercising, eating right, and getting semi-regular blood tests to check my insulin levels. What I can't do is throw my hands up and go "oh well, I guess I'm doomed to be a diabetic!"
People using the genetics arguement are doing exactly that. Your genetics can make it hard to lose weight and easy to gain weight, but they don't FORCE you into obesity. Giving up and resigning yourself and all of your children to lifelong obesity is absolutely the wrong thing to do. Having a genetic history of obesity is a reason to work harder to stay in shape, not to work less or give up.
Also, our whole culture of "my child is a special little snowflake princess who needs to be coddled by EVERYONE" is a huge factor. When I was a child, my parents cooked vegetables for every meal and if I didn't clear my plate, I wasn't allowed to leave the table. These days, parents aren't willing to make their children eat things they don't like, and of course fast food and prepared foods taste better than vegetables and whole wheat.
I worked for a while at a daycare center preparing lunches, and parents would give LISTS to us of things their children would eat. Not things that their children were allergic to, or that made them sick, or even things they just didn't like. Lists of food that their children WOULD eat, and it was unacceptable to even think of giving their children anything that wasn't on the list. Seriously. They usually went something like, "My sweet Sarah is a picky eater. :) She will only eat easy mac, peanut butter and jelly on white bread (no crust), and extra cheese pizza (no other toppings)". This is COMMON.
When I was a child, if I was eating somewhere besides home, I was expected to clean my plate without complaint, and compliment whoever cooked it even if I hated it. The only excuse for not eating something was if it made me physically ill. I was a picky eater, but I was not allowed to ask for special accomodation, because it was rude and made extra work for whoever was cooking. The rule was, until I was old enough to cook my own meals, I would eat whatever was put in front of me unless it made me sick. Nowadays parents gasp in horror at the very idea and it's almost considered child abuse. If parents would stop coddling their children so much and make them eat the healthiest food they can afford, and make them join a sport (or just go swimming with them, or walking with them, or ANYTHING) being bullied over childhood obesity wouldn't be an issue because children wouldn't be obese.
Childhood obesity is the "big news" of the day because it's NEW. Twenty years ago it was extremely rare for children to be medically obese. Some were overweight, yes, and they did get teased, but no one was so huge that they couldn't fit into the chairs in the lunch room. If you'd suggested back then that the lone 250 lb kid maybe had a healthy diet at home you'd be laughed at. Fat isn't magnetically attracted to your body; it's not magic. When parents are fat, they need to look at themselves, and realize that their children, too, may be fat. Then they need to work HARDER, not LESS, to make sure their kids eat as healthy as possible and get as much exercise as possible (and see a doctor as often as possible). Being genetically predisposed towards obesity is not a good excuse to give up all effort to stay at a reasonable weight.
162
Also, I wanted to add that I think the prevalance of pop is one of the largest contributors (if not the single largest contributor) to obesity, especially in children. As soon as a baby is no longer on breast milk/formula, parents give their children pop as a staple of every meal. No more milk, no juice, no water. Pop is the go-to beverage for everything. The MAJORITY of American parents give their kids as much pop as they want as soon as they're old enough to drink out of a sippy cup. Not only does this encourage obesity, but it contributes to a TON of other problems, like caffeine addition, hyperactivity (making parenting harder and even possibly leading to an incorrect diagnosis of ADD or ADHD), and terrible, painful dental problems.
I was never given pop as a child, not even as a treat, and as a result, I never gained a taste for it (nor did any of my siblings). Also, all of us have excellent dental health and have never had a cavity, root canal, or any procedure besides braces and routine cleanings done in our lives.
As far as I'm concerned, giving your child pop as anything other than an occasional treat IS abusive. Not only is it horrible for their health AND weight, you're actually causing them physical pain in the long run from cavities, tooth aches, and infections.
As a personal disclaimer: Much of my evidence is anecdotal and should not be taken as proof that everyone everywhere is exactly the same. I'm a professional counselor for children, but not a researcher, scientist, or doctor. However, if you want to find out more about the harmful effects of pop, just fucking google it.
I was never given pop as a child, not even as a treat, and as a result, I never gained a taste for it (nor did any of my siblings). Also, all of us have excellent dental health and have never had a cavity, root canal, or any procedure besides braces and routine cleanings done in our lives.
As far as I'm concerned, giving your child pop as anything other than an occasional treat IS abusive. Not only is it horrible for their health AND weight, you're actually causing them physical pain in the long run from cavities, tooth aches, and infections.
As a personal disclaimer: Much of my evidence is anecdotal and should not be taken as proof that everyone everywhere is exactly the same. I'm a professional counselor for children, but not a researcher, scientist, or doctor. However, if you want to find out more about the harmful effects of pop, just fucking google it.
163
Don't lose your edge, Dan. Don't bow down to sanctimony and cleanse your thoughts and your blog of anything and everything that might stir controversy, or might be uncomfortable, or that might hurt somebody's feelings. You'll never be more famous than MLK and you have no obligation to start tidying things up to ease your beatification. If some prefer predictable, doctrinaire, ultra-PC blogging, there are plenty of places where that can be found. I like you just the way you are.
164
156 - the emphasis on short term happiness (appeasement?!) does not seem a sustainable basis for child rearing. I'm really happy after a couple of pints of local cider but I know, and I've been educated, that there are other, healthier ways to be happy. The more you "comfort" eat, which is what eating to be happy is, the more it becomes about all the wrong chemical reactions and borderline addiction. My OH carries a lot of extra weight, I like the reaction I get from him when I buy him chocolate with the groceries, which he loves and demolishes in vast quantities when he can, but he and I know that it's something that has to be rationed, however happy it makes both of us in the moment.
Saying no to kids now and again seems to be something we a society have forgotten how to do, and we're already seeing massive repercussions.
Saying no to kids now and again seems to be something we a society have forgotten how to do, and we're already seeing massive repercussions.
165
I too have an anecdotal story about diet and weight management, which I will now extrapolate into a half-baked theory about obesity in the general population!
I served two years in the Peace Corps. While there, I and many other volunteers who were padded with a little extra (in some cases A LoT extra) weight lost it all and then some. I was as thin as I'd been in high school. What was our amazing secret?!?! Dysentery, eating meat once a week because that's all we could afford, giardia (something so rare in developed countries that the Internet's spell-checker hasn't even heard of it), eating soggy noodles all the time, more dysentery, etc, etc.
This was not a healthy diet. I could only afford tomatoes in the summer, and I could only get oranges in January. I used to buy a Snickers bar as a calorie supplement in summer, because I wasn't getting enough energy from the food I ate if I had giardia. And my PC living allowance was more than double what plenty of poor families in my host country had to live on.
Having to plan out your day based on the nearest bathrooms in case of sudden diarrhea in the summer is not the best lifestyle I've ever had, but hey, I was losing weight!! If it wasn't for the Clean Water Act, we could all be so lucky. So two years later, I head back home, determined, *determined* not to backslide into being chubby. Guess how that turned out?
Yeah, one year later I'd gained back pretty much all the weight I lost, and while some of that can be chocked up to not walking as much or as far as I did in Peace Corps, plenty of it goes to having access to a variety of quality food and not having to worry about diarrhea and vomiting as a result of food poisoning every other week.
Could I be thinner? Sure, if I exercised rigorously every day and watched absolutely everything I ever ate. But I'm healthy, happy with my appearance, and disinclined to make every meal I eat for the rest of my life a battle ground. Sorry, I would rather be a little chubby than be on a permanent diet. And that's my choice.
More...
I served two years in the Peace Corps. While there, I and many other volunteers who were padded with a little extra (in some cases A LoT extra) weight lost it all and then some. I was as thin as I'd been in high school. What was our amazing secret?!?! Dysentery, eating meat once a week because that's all we could afford, giardia (something so rare in developed countries that the Internet's spell-checker hasn't even heard of it), eating soggy noodles all the time, more dysentery, etc, etc.
This was not a healthy diet. I could only afford tomatoes in the summer, and I could only get oranges in January. I used to buy a Snickers bar as a calorie supplement in summer, because I wasn't getting enough energy from the food I ate if I had giardia. And my PC living allowance was more than double what plenty of poor families in my host country had to live on.
Having to plan out your day based on the nearest bathrooms in case of sudden diarrhea in the summer is not the best lifestyle I've ever had, but hey, I was losing weight!! If it wasn't for the Clean Water Act, we could all be so lucky. So two years later, I head back home, determined, *determined* not to backslide into being chubby. Guess how that turned out?
Yeah, one year later I'd gained back pretty much all the weight I lost, and while some of that can be chocked up to not walking as much or as far as I did in Peace Corps, plenty of it goes to having access to a variety of quality food and not having to worry about diarrhea and vomiting as a result of food poisoning every other week.
Could I be thinner? Sure, if I exercised rigorously every day and watched absolutely everything I ever ate. But I'm healthy, happy with my appearance, and disinclined to make every meal I eat for the rest of my life a battle ground. Sorry, I would rather be a little chubby than be on a permanent diet. And that's my choice.
166
"purport or attempt to show" =/= "proves," "confirms," "establishes." I can purport or attempt to show all day that a correlation I find in a lot of cases is the same as causation, but that won't make it so.
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Amazonvera, you clearly no nothing of science, or else you'd understand that research has never proven a thing. Ever. Nor will it ever, because it can't.
————
Amazonvera, you clearly no nothing of science, or else you'd understand that research has never proven a thing. Ever. Nor will it ever, because it can't.
168
@139/Ricardo -
What we're saying is actually fairly similar, I think, but still – a couple things:
"Poverty has no causal effect on weight gain. It's correlated to it, but it doesn't cause it (otherwise almost all Africans and Asians would be obese)."
That's a pretty unfair, strawman-style argument: no one's claiming that having less money in your pocket magically makes you fat. What I'm saying is that right now, in the US (I really can't speak for other countries), there are many people who need to support families on not much money (and often not much time); there's an abundance of high-calorie, low-nutrient food for sale; and, more-nutritious food is often relatively expensive or otherwise hard to obtain. That's how poverty leads to obesity (at this point in time, in this country).
"The solution to both problem is the same: more education, more resources, etc., etc. But just saying "it's not my fault I'm that way" does even less to solve the problem than singing sarcastic songs about it. A lot of people need a slap in the face or a kick in the butt before they do something, you know. Especially if that something is change."
All true, but a kick in the butt won't do much good if the resources aren't there. Learning about how to cook with fresh vegetables and lean meats won't do anything for you if you can't get fresh vegetables or lean meats.
What we're saying is actually fairly similar, I think, but still – a couple things:
"Poverty has no causal effect on weight gain. It's correlated to it, but it doesn't cause it (otherwise almost all Africans and Asians would be obese)."
That's a pretty unfair, strawman-style argument: no one's claiming that having less money in your pocket magically makes you fat. What I'm saying is that right now, in the US (I really can't speak for other countries), there are many people who need to support families on not much money (and often not much time); there's an abundance of high-calorie, low-nutrient food for sale; and, more-nutritious food is often relatively expensive or otherwise hard to obtain. That's how poverty leads to obesity (at this point in time, in this country).
"The solution to both problem is the same: more education, more resources, etc., etc. But just saying "it's not my fault I'm that way" does even less to solve the problem than singing sarcastic songs about it. A lot of people need a slap in the face or a kick in the butt before they do something, you know. Especially if that something is change."
All true, but a kick in the butt won't do much good if the resources aren't there. Learning about how to cook with fresh vegetables and lean meats won't do anything for you if you can't get fresh vegetables or lean meats.
169
This seems like a good thread to point out that there's a bill working it's way through the state House right now that would eliminate the requirement that elementary kids get 30 minutes of physical activity a day.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summary.…
At first look it doesn't seem to have a single democrat among the 20 or so cosponsors, so it may not get far, but it's still surprising to see an idea like that come up in these days.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summary.…
At first look it doesn't seem to have a single democrat among the 20 or so cosponsors, so it may not get far, but it's still surprising to see an idea like that come up in these days.
170
@ 168 - I was just using poverty as an example of the correlated factors that some people, even here in this thread, use as an excuse AS IF THEY WERE causal factors. If it's not poverty, it's genetics. If it's not genetics, it's lack of availability. At one point this has to stop... if what you care about is your health and not your wounded ego.
Of course, it can be more difficult to find good food products, but in any sizeable city, that difficulty is more often than not limited to going a bit further than the supermarket (but that's also an opportunity to WALK and you should take it... if what you care about is your health and not your wounded ego).
Healthy food is expensive? Start by removing all ice cream, soft drinks, chips and other junk from the shopping basket, see how much money you've get left and try to work with that. I've done it all my life (because I never had much money) and it's not that difficult. And remember: appropriately reduced portions cost less than the mountains of food you might be used to ingest.
Genetics? Hormones? In my entire life, I've met ONE person who actually has such a problem (thyroid), and she's got thick hips and legs. She's definitely NOT obese.
I understand how all the "peripherical" factors that you describe favour weight gain, but generally only for those who refuse to take their life and health into their own hands and do something about it. And yes, that might require an EFFORT, but it's not impossible if what you care about is your health and not your wounded ego. Things like getting informed, looking for sources of healthier food, making a realistic budget and accepting that they'll have to do without their treats.
That's why those people who, for whatever reason, won't make that effort, need a kick in the butt : because they'll never get to realize that it's all up to them unless you give them that kick in the butt and take away all their stupid excuses. The kick is not the solution. The kick is the means to start them on their way to finding their own solution instead of blaming every other factor, which leads to absolutely nothing positive.
And yes, the results may vary according to the individual, but any effort towards a healthier lifestyle is better than none, however relevant your excuses seem to you when you're trying to protect your wounded ego.
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Of course, it can be more difficult to find good food products, but in any sizeable city, that difficulty is more often than not limited to going a bit further than the supermarket (but that's also an opportunity to WALK and you should take it... if what you care about is your health and not your wounded ego).
Healthy food is expensive? Start by removing all ice cream, soft drinks, chips and other junk from the shopping basket, see how much money you've get left and try to work with that. I've done it all my life (because I never had much money) and it's not that difficult. And remember: appropriately reduced portions cost less than the mountains of food you might be used to ingest.
Genetics? Hormones? In my entire life, I've met ONE person who actually has such a problem (thyroid), and she's got thick hips and legs. She's definitely NOT obese.
I understand how all the "peripherical" factors that you describe favour weight gain, but generally only for those who refuse to take their life and health into their own hands and do something about it. And yes, that might require an EFFORT, but it's not impossible if what you care about is your health and not your wounded ego. Things like getting informed, looking for sources of healthier food, making a realistic budget and accepting that they'll have to do without their treats.
That's why those people who, for whatever reason, won't make that effort, need a kick in the butt : because they'll never get to realize that it's all up to them unless you give them that kick in the butt and take away all their stupid excuses. The kick is not the solution. The kick is the means to start them on their way to finding their own solution instead of blaming every other factor, which leads to absolutely nothing positive.
And yes, the results may vary according to the individual, but any effort towards a healthier lifestyle is better than none, however relevant your excuses seem to you when you're trying to protect your wounded ego.
172
If you are obese, and want to stay that way, neither I nor anyone else has the right to judge you for that. It's your body, and only you get to choose how to treat your body. But it's immoral and borderline abusive to force those choices on your children. Raise your children with a healthy diet, even if they hate healthy foods, and do some kind of exercise with them. Take them to see doctors and/or nutritionists so they can get a healthy start on life and avoid being bullied for being obese.
That's what the song is about: parents forcing their unhealthy choices on children who are too young and uniformed to make their own choices. When obesity runs in your family, you can resign yourself to stayng obese if you so desire, but doing nothing to prevent your child from the same problem is not right.
Children are too young to make good choices about exercise, food, and the way they want their body to look. Thus, the responsibility for that falls on the parents. Thus, childhood obesity is at least 90% the fault of the parents (though some blame undoubtedly lies with the quality of food these days, vending machines, and school lunches).
That's what the song is about: parents forcing their unhealthy choices on children who are too young and uniformed to make their own choices. When obesity runs in your family, you can resign yourself to stayng obese if you so desire, but doing nothing to prevent your child from the same problem is not right.
Children are too young to make good choices about exercise, food, and the way they want their body to look. Thus, the responsibility for that falls on the parents. Thus, childhood obesity is at least 90% the fault of the parents (though some blame undoubtedly lies with the quality of food these days, vending machines, and school lunches).
173
"Don't lose your edge, Dan. Don't bow down to sanctimony and cleanse your thoughts and your blog of anything and everything that might stir controversy, or might be uncomfortable, or that might hurt somebody's feelings."
This is not what I'm demanding of Dan. I'm demanding that a public figure of a minority rights movement refrain from driving fat kids or trans kids (or any other minority group) to suicide.
Do you not see the difference?
It is not edgy, hardcore, or cool when a public figure makes fun of fat people. It is damaging, and it leads to increased bullying by the millions of people who emulate him. It leads to the impression that he's trying to elevate his minority group by dint of putting down another minority group, rather than because his minority group should have equal rights to the majority. But eventually the minorities who are doing this, with their shitty exclusive attitudes, are going to run out of other minorities to take the bottom rung in society. What happens then?
You, or Dan, can say "who gives a fuck about fatties? that's not what we're here for." Well, I thought we were here to stop the bullying which leads to teens who feel "othered" killing themselves. Neh?
I'm not saying Dan has to be a fat advocate, or a trans advocate. I'm saying he has to be NEUTRAL on topics that have NO FUCKING RELEVANCE to his pet topic. With great power comes... all over your face? You know the line.
This is not what I'm demanding of Dan. I'm demanding that a public figure of a minority rights movement refrain from driving fat kids or trans kids (or any other minority group) to suicide.
Do you not see the difference?
It is not edgy, hardcore, or cool when a public figure makes fun of fat people. It is damaging, and it leads to increased bullying by the millions of people who emulate him. It leads to the impression that he's trying to elevate his minority group by dint of putting down another minority group, rather than because his minority group should have equal rights to the majority. But eventually the minorities who are doing this, with their shitty exclusive attitudes, are going to run out of other minorities to take the bottom rung in society. What happens then?
You, or Dan, can say "who gives a fuck about fatties? that's not what we're here for." Well, I thought we were here to stop the bullying which leads to teens who feel "othered" killing themselves. Neh?
I'm not saying Dan has to be a fat advocate, or a trans advocate. I'm saying he has to be NEUTRAL on topics that have NO FUCKING RELEVANCE to his pet topic. With great power comes... all over your face? You know the line.
174
@31: "How can anyone live without food for 3-4 months and not lose weight?"
No one can. Was your MIL fed intravenously or something?
No one can. Was your MIL fed intravenously or something?
175
If you are obese, and want to stay that way, neither I nor anyone else has the right to judge you for that. It's your body, and only you get to choose how to treat your body.
Bull - how other people treat their bodies affects me directly through the cost of my insurance premiums.
Bull - how other people treat their bodies affects me directly through the cost of my insurance premiums.
176
@175 are you going to start making fun of people born with heart defects, then? Mentally retarded folks? They cost way more in premiums than a fatty, who is more likely to die after they stop paying premiums but before you, cutting their end of life costs significantly. That's the message I'm getting based on the criteria you've provided.
177
You don't have to have lots of recent comments about fat people for your bullying to seem relentless. You make your snide comments whenever the subject remotely comes up, and you've never taken them back, so they're always still in effect. Whenever I think about weight, I know that Dan Savage (whose opinions I normally respect) is still a hater, whether he specifically reminded me recently or not.
Every now and then, you draw attention to your anti-fatty views, just to make sure people know that you haven't changed your mind. So whenever you mention anything about weight, it's as if you're saying cruel things again. I've seen plenty of girl-bullies do that, and girly bullying is still bullying.
I respect you, and I know that you're committed to schools where all kids feel safe (even kids that some people find squicky), so it sucks when you act like a girly bully and dilute your most important message.
I also suspect you're just trying to be an asshole, so rest assured, you'll still be an asshole either way. Please just admit that yes, fat squicks you out, but that you're moving on -- and then actually *stay* moved on -- so that you can be the asshole we know and love without being a hypocrite, too.
Every now and then, you draw attention to your anti-fatty views, just to make sure people know that you haven't changed your mind. So whenever you mention anything about weight, it's as if you're saying cruel things again. I've seen plenty of girl-bullies do that, and girly bullying is still bullying.
I respect you, and I know that you're committed to schools where all kids feel safe (even kids that some people find squicky), so it sucks when you act like a girly bully and dilute your most important message.
I also suspect you're just trying to be an asshole, so rest assured, you'll still be an asshole either way. Please just admit that yes, fat squicks you out, but that you're moving on -- and then actually *stay* moved on -- so that you can be the asshole we know and love without being a hypocrite, too.
178
@170 (and others) -
I understand that many obese (or otherwise unhealthy) people have it well within their means to live healthier lives, and essentially choose not to. But, like I said before – obesity and poor nutrition are a HUGE problem for this country right now, and I think that has a lot more to do with socioeconomic factors than it does with some sort of massive, simultaneous failure of willpower.
So, a couple outside sources. First, a New York Times article about a study on price disparities between more and less nutritious foods:
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/05…
Some choice bits:
"The survey found that higher-calorie, energy-dense foods are the better bargain for cash-strapped shoppers. Energy-dense munchies cost on average $1.76 per 1,000 calories, compared with $18.16 per 1,000 calories for low-energy but nutritious foods."
"“If you have $3 to feed yourself, your choices gravitate toward foods which give you the most calories per dollar,’’ said [lead author] Dr. Drewnowski. “Not only are the empty calories cheaper, but the healthy foods are becoming more and more expensive. Vegetables and fruits are rapidly becoming luxury goods.”"
And then there's the concept of the "food desert" – an area where there's a severe lack of nutritious food available. From the Wikipedia page on food deserts:
"Research by Morland et al, found that areas with a majority of convenience stores have a higher prevalence of overweight and obese individuals, compared to areas with only supermarkets (Morland 42). Fast food restaurants are disproportionately placed in low-income and minority neighborhoods, and are often the closest and cheapest food options (USDA). “People living in the poorest SES areas have 2.5 times the exposure to fast-food restaurants as those living in the wealthiest areas” (Yeh, 2006). The lack of adequate food sources and limited transportation available to low-income communities are contributing factors to malnutrition among those living in low SES neighborhoods (Morland, 2002)."
So, like I've been saying – if we're gonna seriously address the problem of poor nutrition in this country, we have to seriously look at some of the root causes: I think that a lack of access to healthy foods is a much bigger issue than individual ignorance or laziness.
More...
I understand that many obese (or otherwise unhealthy) people have it well within their means to live healthier lives, and essentially choose not to. But, like I said before – obesity and poor nutrition are a HUGE problem for this country right now, and I think that has a lot more to do with socioeconomic factors than it does with some sort of massive, simultaneous failure of willpower.
So, a couple outside sources. First, a New York Times article about a study on price disparities between more and less nutritious foods:
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/05…
Some choice bits:
"The survey found that higher-calorie, energy-dense foods are the better bargain for cash-strapped shoppers. Energy-dense munchies cost on average $1.76 per 1,000 calories, compared with $18.16 per 1,000 calories for low-energy but nutritious foods."
"“If you have $3 to feed yourself, your choices gravitate toward foods which give you the most calories per dollar,’’ said [lead author] Dr. Drewnowski. “Not only are the empty calories cheaper, but the healthy foods are becoming more and more expensive. Vegetables and fruits are rapidly becoming luxury goods.”"
And then there's the concept of the "food desert" – an area where there's a severe lack of nutritious food available. From the Wikipedia page on food deserts:
"Research by Morland et al, found that areas with a majority of convenience stores have a higher prevalence of overweight and obese individuals, compared to areas with only supermarkets (Morland 42). Fast food restaurants are disproportionately placed in low-income and minority neighborhoods, and are often the closest and cheapest food options (USDA). “People living in the poorest SES areas have 2.5 times the exposure to fast-food restaurants as those living in the wealthiest areas” (Yeh, 2006). The lack of adequate food sources and limited transportation available to low-income communities are contributing factors to malnutrition among those living in low SES neighborhoods (Morland, 2002)."
So, like I've been saying – if we're gonna seriously address the problem of poor nutrition in this country, we have to seriously look at some of the root causes: I think that a lack of access to healthy foods is a much bigger issue than individual ignorance or laziness.
179
This isn't a civil rights issue, it's a health issue. Obesity is harmful not because it is unattractive but because it endangers peoples lives.
Equating Dan's criticism of parents for abusing their kids with food to "picking on obese children" is detrimental to the physical and mental health of these kids.
Genetics leads some to gain/lose weight easier than others, but it doesn't food in their mouths against their will.
I work with far too many teenagers who have BMIs well over 40, many have diabetes, high blood pressure and other devastating diseases as a direct result of their morbid obesity. All of them have extremely complicated pregnancies which endanger their lives and the lives of their babies.
By defending fatness as a right or lifestyle choice is enabling growing numbers of people to mortally hurt themselves.
I have numerous coworkers in their forties and fifties who are barely able to walk due to their weight and the destruction of their hips and knees from their uncontrolled consumption. They will soon be in nursing homes unable to rise from their bed and will have to sit in their own piss and shit until a healthcare team can wheel in the hydraulic lift to raise them enough or just roll them over so that someone can wash their ass. They'll endure this humiliating reality for 20 years until pneumonia, infected bedsores, urinary tract infections which spread to blood infections, strokes, heart attacks, endometrial cancers and a host of other fat-related morbidities combine to kill them slowly.
Equating Dan's criticism of parents for abusing their kids with food to "picking on obese children" is detrimental to the physical and mental health of these kids.
Genetics leads some to gain/lose weight easier than others, but it doesn't food in their mouths against their will.
I work with far too many teenagers who have BMIs well over 40, many have diabetes, high blood pressure and other devastating diseases as a direct result of their morbid obesity. All of them have extremely complicated pregnancies which endanger their lives and the lives of their babies.
By defending fatness as a right or lifestyle choice is enabling growing numbers of people to mortally hurt themselves.
I have numerous coworkers in their forties and fifties who are barely able to walk due to their weight and the destruction of their hips and knees from their uncontrolled consumption. They will soon be in nursing homes unable to rise from their bed and will have to sit in their own piss and shit until a healthcare team can wheel in the hydraulic lift to raise them enough or just roll them over so that someone can wash their ass. They'll endure this humiliating reality for 20 years until pneumonia, infected bedsores, urinary tract infections which spread to blood infections, strokes, heart attacks, endometrial cancers and a host of other fat-related morbidities combine to kill them slowly.
180
If my partner were to start smoking, I would say to her "this choice you've made is incredibly unhealthy, incredibly unattractive, and reeks of death. I know it's hard, but please exercise some self-control and stop doing this thing that is gross and basically amounts to slow-motion suicide. I will help you however I can." I would not be called a bully; in fact, I would probably get a lot of support from people for taking this stand. Why is it any different when we're talking about obesity? And if I wrote a song in which I said that people should not buy cigarettes for their children, even if the song was funny and vividly described how grimace-inducing it is to see children being indoctrinated into a habit that will alienate them from others while it slowly kills them, I would not be called a bully then either. Everyone expects smokers to suck it up, and nobody would take them seriously if they said "stop bullying us, we'll kill ourselves!!!" and believe me, they put up with a lot more than obese people do (like, nobody's making anyone eat their donuts while standing outside in the snow). I don't understand why it's good to take a hard line with smokers (and it is good, studies show that pressure/support from family members saves smokers' lives) but BAD BAD BAD to do the same with people who are killing themselves with cheap calories.
181
are you going to start making fun of people born with heart defects, then? Mentally retarded folks?
I hate to have to point out the painfully obvious - only a small percentage people are overweight/obese through no actions of their own. For the rest it is a combination of their actions and their socioeconomic position.
I don't think this justifies shaming these people but I do think that in our coming era of universal healthcare it means everyone should make an effort to be healthy and society should enable that as much as possible.
I hate to have to point out the painfully obvious - only a small percentage people are overweight/obese through no actions of their own. For the rest it is a combination of their actions and their socioeconomic position.
I don't think this justifies shaming these people but I do think that in our coming era of universal healthcare it means everyone should make an effort to be healthy and society should enable that as much as possible.
182
@ 178 - I totally agree with you on the need to change the whole food distribution system, but my point is that nothing is going to change for the concerned individuals and their families if they don't admit that they also have to make an effort.
Bad transportation? There are cheap bicycles on sale everywhere. Used (who cares?). I have a one-speed, pedal break bike. Great exercise, it gets me everywhere faster than the bus, and it cost me a fraction of my yearly public transport expenses (before I had the bike). And I can't say I live in a bike-friendly city either.
High prevalence of fast-food outlets? Nobody forces you to go in. You can walk a bit further. And a fast food meal will leave you hungry for another one in a couple of hours, so why not invest a little bit more to get a healthy and satisfying meal that will, in the end, help you SAVE money?
That's where "individual ignorance or laziness" comes into play, and we simply cannot deny its incidence on obesity.
There are a lot of decisions that you can make easily to modify your habits. The information is available on the Internet, which is FREE in many public libraries. I'm not saying everyone should become a vegetarian or strive for perfectly healthy eating habits, but everyone has to make a goddamn effort.
In the end, it comes to this: It's your body; how do you want to feel? The system may carry a large part of the blame, but solely blaming the system is not going to help you as an individual.
And if you're in charge of a family's eating habits, well, giving them the best food possible and teaching them the best eating habits possible is one of the responsibilities you signed up for when you decided to have the babies. You want them to live a long and happy life, don't you? Do something about it.
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Bad transportation? There are cheap bicycles on sale everywhere. Used (who cares?). I have a one-speed, pedal break bike. Great exercise, it gets me everywhere faster than the bus, and it cost me a fraction of my yearly public transport expenses (before I had the bike). And I can't say I live in a bike-friendly city either.
High prevalence of fast-food outlets? Nobody forces you to go in. You can walk a bit further. And a fast food meal will leave you hungry for another one in a couple of hours, so why not invest a little bit more to get a healthy and satisfying meal that will, in the end, help you SAVE money?
That's where "individual ignorance or laziness" comes into play, and we simply cannot deny its incidence on obesity.
There are a lot of decisions that you can make easily to modify your habits. The information is available on the Internet, which is FREE in many public libraries. I'm not saying everyone should become a vegetarian or strive for perfectly healthy eating habits, but everyone has to make a goddamn effort.
In the end, it comes to this: It's your body; how do you want to feel? The system may carry a large part of the blame, but solely blaming the system is not going to help you as an individual.
And if you're in charge of a family's eating habits, well, giving them the best food possible and teaching them the best eating habits possible is one of the responsibilities you signed up for when you decided to have the babies. You want them to live a long and happy life, don't you? Do something about it.
183
@181 I was going with the single criterion you posited. If you have more than one, you should say so (at the risk of purposely being taken literally at your word).
184
@181 I was going with the single criterion you posited. If you have more than one, you should say so (at the risk of purposely being taken literally at your word).
This means, in simple English, that costing more in health care premiums is not necessary or sufficient for a health condition to be mockable.
This means, in simple English, that costing more in health care premiums is not necessary or sufficient for a health condition to be mockable.
185
I'm just going to put it out there that it irritates me when people conflate being overweight with being obese. You know, like when someone says something like, "The obesity epidemic in our country is resulting in rising health costs," and some other person response, "How dare you! There are lots of healthy people who are classified as 'overweight.'"
Say it with me now: "Overweight" is not the same as "obese."
Say it with me now: "Overweight" is not the same as "obese."
186
For shits and grins I came back to this to see if the rants were still flying since I lost interest on Friday. Oh, man!
Holy Doughnuts, Dan, you've been given a cross to bear for all repressed minorities (are obese people minorities in the US?).
Last one out get the light!
Holy Doughnuts, Dan, you've been given a cross to bear for all repressed minorities (are obese people minorities in the US?).
Last one out get the light!
187
I'm the opposite of Dan. My entire family is skinny and eats like fat people, I rarely exercise and eat like a trucker yet remain hopelessly twinky. Because of this I've always felt intensely guilty about saying anything critical of fat people, because of being privileged, but as long as government funded healthcare is taking care of diabetics and people with heart disease, someone needs to, and thanks Dan for doing it in a way that is actually pretty compassionate and honest.
188
The vast majority of overweight and obese people are so because they eat poorly. People will in one sitting eat almost an entire day's worth of calories in a single meal. Learning to eat properly after a lifetime of bad habits isn't easy. So many people gain the weight back because they don't make permanent changes to their diets. They go on some extreme weight loss kick, eating in a way that they cannot maintain in the long term. In there minds, they want to lose 50 lbs in a month, and then go back to eating as they did before the diet. Too many people seem to think that they're missing something important in life if they can't eat that footlong meatball sub with cheese, with jumbo fries, an extra large soda, and a cake for desert. So of course they're going to fail. You have to relearn how to eat, and eat properly for the REST OF YOUR LIFE.
189
You don't fat bash so much as you clearly think fat people are disgusting. That coupled with a position of authority creates a "tone" to your fat dislike and people get fat bashing.
I will try to dig those slog entries up at home later, but it was just your clear disgust of fatties.
I will try to dig those slog entries up at home later, but it was just your clear disgust of fatties.
190
Isn't it possible that Dan, and people in general, find the behavior that leads to obesity disgusting, rather than finding obese people themselves disgusting? I know that I find smoking disgusting for a lot of reasons (the smell is one), but chief among them is the horrible feeling of watching someone self-destruct because they can't control themselves. People who can't control their addictions, whether they be obese, junkies, alcoholics, or whoever, invoke disgust not because of how they look but because of how we feel when we see what would happen to ourselves if we stopped, well, stopping ourselves. We all like eating, after all, and booze is great and many drugs are apparently delicious. It's frightening and revolting to think of what would happen if the brakes stopped working. So just because you detect disgust when people talk about obesity doesn't mean that anyone is saying "ew fattiez r gross lol!" It's probably more nuanced than that.
191
@140 - I think that's a WEE bit different. Everyone has to eat, not everyone has to do drugs. Kids are going to eat the way their parents do.
Honestly, I'd just like to see a little bit less chalked up in the "personal responsibility" category when it comes to the obesity epidemic and a little more chalked up in the "social responsibility" category. I don't believe Americans have an obesity problem because we're just essentially more weak-willed individuals. And I'd like to believe that maybe people can be adults about this and treat human beings with respect and compassion on this issue even while recognizing that it's reversible. There's just no reason for the vitriole and it doesn't fucking help.
Dan, your facts are fine, but your approach is shit. You are not helping.
Honestly, I'd just like to see a little bit less chalked up in the "personal responsibility" category when it comes to the obesity epidemic and a little more chalked up in the "social responsibility" category. I don't believe Americans have an obesity problem because we're just essentially more weak-willed individuals. And I'd like to believe that maybe people can be adults about this and treat human beings with respect and compassion on this issue even while recognizing that it's reversible. There's just no reason for the vitriole and it doesn't fucking help.
Dan, your facts are fine, but your approach is shit. You are not helping.
192
If I ever find myself feeling prone to being judgmental, I remember a study that DAN ACTUALLY POSTED (and then, seemingly, forgot about) indicating that higher obesity in expectant mothers results in children born whose brains actually have a higher satiety point, meaning they have to eat more to feel full.
That should be a lesson to all of us. Not necessarily just the study results themselves, but the very idea that some brains just need more food intake to feel full. It's all very well to applaud yourself if you're thin, but if you can eat a reasonable amount and feel full? You're lucky. How would you like to go through life never ever feeling like you'd had enough to eat? Could you REALLY do it? If not, quit being an asshole.
That should be a lesson to all of us. Not necessarily just the study results themselves, but the very idea that some brains just need more food intake to feel full. It's all very well to applaud yourself if you're thin, but if you can eat a reasonable amount and feel full? You're lucky. How would you like to go through life never ever feeling like you'd had enough to eat? Could you REALLY do it? If not, quit being an asshole.
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