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News & ArtsWednesday, January 19, 2011
Crime / News / Strangercrombie ...the Darndest Things
Posted by Dennis Dale on Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 11:57 AM
Dennis Dale's daughter purchased the right for him to post on Slog for a week through our annual holiday auction Strangercrombie, which this year benefited neglected children and the homeless. More info about our charity auction here. The views expressed in Dale's editorials on Slog are his alone and have not been edited based on ideology.
Monday one of the feral teens involved in the economic-recreational beating death of Seattle's "Tuba Man" was arrested for something called "unlawful bus conduct." This is his second arrest after serving a nominal sentence for the killing, committed when he was just fifteen. His first (known) fatality remains a source of considerable pride for the youngster (see below), now 18 and just whiling away the brief period between that and the blessed release that will be his own death or long-term incarceration.
Somewhat reassuringly, the fundamental constant of violent crime—its high correlation to gross stupidity—is here in evidence, suggesting that indecent interval will be brief. His sophistication regarding the criminal justice system hasn't yet matched his precocity for criminal violence however, and his conspicuous lack of shame regarding the killing (or appreciation for the mercy shown him) suggests that on his block he's something of a celebrity:
"While he was being searched by Deputy Hill and Deputy Nix, (the teen) bragged to them about being one of the juveniles who killed the Tuba Man," according to an incident report. "He bragged how his lawyer, John Henry Brown (sic), got him off with only three months for stomping Tuba Man to death and how he would get him off for these charges too," a deputy wrote in an incident report.However, John Henry Browne was not the teen's attorney on the Tuba Man case, in which he received a sentence of 30 to 72 weeks and served all 72. His attorneys were public defenders Daewoo Kim and Hal Palmer, according to the King County Prosecutor's Office.
2
Regardless of how I feel about the content of your posts, Dale seeing them come up always makes me giggle, because I know the comments section will be a GREAT read.
8
Dennis Dale said:
When I look at and listen to Michelle Obama I think one thing: Ball-buster. Industrial grade, pummel 'em into fine sand and compress 'em into diamonds caliber ball-buster. I swear when I watch him watching her speak in interviews I can see the trepidation in his mind about what sort of sh*t in search of a fan might spontaneously eject from that ferocious-looking underbite of hers. So anxious he looks almost entirely caucasian.
At least when he's president he'll always have a handy excuse for getting out of the house. Let's hope he doesn't nuke somebody just to prove she's wrong about him being a wimp who lets all the other politicans push him around.
I imagine Barry enduring one of her fierce tirades and thinking glumly, "should've married the white girl."
FYI if you're not allowed to access white supremacist websites from your work, don't follow that link!
When I look at and listen to Michelle Obama I think one thing: Ball-buster. Industrial grade, pummel 'em into fine sand and compress 'em into diamonds caliber ball-buster. I swear when I watch him watching her speak in interviews I can see the trepidation in his mind about what sort of sh*t in search of a fan might spontaneously eject from that ferocious-looking underbite of hers. So anxious he looks almost entirely caucasian.
At least when he's president he'll always have a handy excuse for getting out of the house. Let's hope he doesn't nuke somebody just to prove she's wrong about him being a wimp who lets all the other politicans push him around.
I imagine Barry enduring one of her fierce tirades and thinking glumly, "should've married the white girl."
FYI if you're not allowed to access white supremacist websites from your work, don't follow that link!
11
Dennis appears to be getting the hang of things at last as far as the legths of this post. Huzzah! Will save my shot for later.
12
Oh and Dennis, you may have thought you erased your EVER SO EDIFYING post on the role of hip-hop in the French banlieue riots from your blog, but your friend Steve Sailer's still got a few paragraphs up:
PALEOCONSERVATISM! WOO
More...
Hip hop has its roots in African traditions of rhythmic chanting to extol the virtues of one’s self or clan above ones rivals. While this tradition has meandered along beneath the surface of the remarkable progress of African American music and was kept alive as an oral tradition, it would wait to become rap as part of the revolutionary DJ culture to spring up in the creative void left by disco’s exhaustion. Highly inventive DJs innovating the techniques which infuse popular music today, such as extended breaks, sampling, and scratching, and the nascent MCs who would improvise a rap over these extended breaks, would forge pop music’s most powerful genre since rock and roll.
Having come of age in the post sixties environment, hip hop was politicized early on, with some of its most renowned acts, such as Public Enemy, Nas, and KRS-1 invoking standard political boilerplate and cliche in their lyrics. Yet for all the political freight loaded onto it, rap remains a defiantly narcissistic art form primarily for young men to extol their sexual prowess and physical bravery, not very different from that early tribal chant. Rap is rebellion, no doubt about it. But what it rebels against isn’t a racist culture; what it rebels against is socialization—its stultifying, civilizing nature; what it seeks to replace it with is a clan-based ethos ruled by the physically strongest, cruelest, and most daring.
It is, above all, a deeply atavistic reaction to modern, egalitarian, democratic society. It shares with fascism its disdain for democratic institutions; though unlike fascism, which would institute ethnic nationalism and central authority in place of democratic or republican rule, rap has no analysis beyond a vague disdain for all that is unfamiliar to the narrow credo of the ‘hood; no designs other than the rule of the streets, race against race, clan against clan. As a political movement, and thankfully it isn’t truly that, it would be something worse than fascism; it would have to be classified as reactionary primitivism.
What one isn’t allowed to notice is how strikingly similar hip hop culture is to African tribal culture. The tradition of men procreating with various women who are then left to raise the children; the raising up and adulation of strongmen rulers; the clannishness; the recognition of power as a value in its own right and the disdain of weakness; the emphasis on personal ornamentation; the superstition and prejudice against the unfamiliar; the impatience with logical rigor; these are defining values of both hip hop and African culture. They serve to keep Africans uneducated and impoverished both in the mother continent and in America, and they may be doing the same thing in Europe.
PALEOCONSERVATISM! WOO
13
@11, I'm not so sure of that. It appears to me that he simply has no endurance, and at three days in has already blown his load.
14
I love that the 'fundamental constant of violent crime' is a 'high correlation to gross stupidity.'
A correlation cannot be a constant by definition. A correlation is an indicator that one event is statistically more or less likely to occur given the occurrence of another event. A constant is a factor that contributes to an event's occurrence every time.
If the (utterly inane) point you're trying to make is that only stupid people commit violent crimes, just come out and say it instead of trying to obscure your meaning with a smattering of faux-statistical proclamations.
A correlation cannot be a constant by definition. A correlation is an indicator that one event is statistically more or less likely to occur given the occurrence of another event. A constant is a factor that contributes to an event's occurrence every time.
If the (utterly inane) point you're trying to make is that only stupid people commit violent crimes, just come out and say it instead of trying to obscure your meaning with a smattering of faux-statistical proclamations.
15
Canuck, if he were to get a reacharound that would leave both hands free for typing, which could only make his posts even longer....ugh...
Dang, planned barrenhood, good research going on in this thread!
Dang, planned barrenhood, good research going on in this thread!
16
I think Dennis the Menace here has a special place reserved alongside Loveschild in the Slog anti-pantheon.
17
"the fundamental constant of violent crime—its high correlation to gross stupidity"
Oh, look. It's a Fundamental Attribution Error. How cute.
You fucking ignorant old nimrod.
Oh, look. It's a Fundamental Attribution Error. How cute.
You fucking ignorant old nimrod.
18
But maybe his posts would be a little more fun to read, gus? And I'm having trouble imagining him lasting all that long, so it could help with the brevity challenge as well...?
21
@12
Thanks. For some of my first work that stands up well. But the Michelle Obama stuff comes from a comment at thread one of those "hate" sites, during a period where I also spent much time and pixels defending candidate Obama as the sensible alternative to McCain, because of his erstwhile principled stance against the war. That didn't quite pan out, sadly. Indeed, had McCain won, we would still have an energized anti-war movement.
Thanks. For some of my first work that stands up well. But the Michelle Obama stuff comes from a comment at thread one of those "hate" sites, during a period where I also spent much time and pixels defending candidate Obama as the sensible alternative to McCain, because of his erstwhile principled stance against the war. That didn't quite pan out, sadly. Indeed, had McCain won, we would still have an energized anti-war movement.
22
to add to #21, note that in addition to a deflated anti-war movement, we have a Pentagon-directed foreign policy the mean old man from AZ would be proud of (despite his disingenuous politicking).
23
Oh, "time and pixels", is that the Internet Conservative version of "blood and treasure"?
Anyway, yes, in terms of how often a person can vaguely invoke the terms "tribal" and "primitive" re: black people, you've clearly always been a talented individual!
Anyway, yes, in terms of how often a person can vaguely invoke the terms "tribal" and "primitive" re: black people, you've clearly always been a talented individual!
24
Espresso, Crème de Cassis and Cream. Not awful, but I wouldn't try it again.
Now I can read the post & comments.
Now I can read the post & comments.
27
@23
No need to go searching out and cherry-picking obscure comments from five years ago; all the ammo you need is at my blog. By your definition I am a racist. Fine; if it isn't enough to renounce violence and promote true legal equality--letting the chips fall where they may regarding resultant disparate outcomes--then I say better a racist than a coward.
No need to go searching out and cherry-picking obscure comments from five years ago; all the ammo you need is at my blog. By your definition I am a racist. Fine; if it isn't enough to renounce violence and promote true legal equality--letting the chips fall where they may regarding resultant disparate outcomes--then I say better a racist than a coward.
29
See, DD's opposed to violent crimes because dumb non-white kids commit them. I'm sure he feels differently about white collar crimes (which harm 10s of millions of people), because they're at least done by smart white men.
I am starting a Strangercrombie savings account now, and next year in December, I'll wire the money to someone who can bid on this prize for me (since I'm usually out of country and away from internet when Strangercrombie runs). If I win it, I promise I'll divide the 10 posts amongst some of the most fun commenters.
I am starting a Strangercrombie savings account now, and next year in December, I'll wire the money to someone who can bid on this prize for me (since I'm usually out of country and away from internet when Strangercrombie runs). If I win it, I promise I'll divide the 10 posts amongst some of the most fun commenters.
32
As I've argued to the "racists" at those "hate" sites, our goal should be reconciling a diverse population to democracy, not, as we are currently doing, reconciling democracy to a diverse population.
I operate on the outlandish notion that these too are my countrymen. You all publicly revel in the imagined demise of "whiteness" and its general awfulness, and then wonder, po-faced, at the reaction you get.
As for that reconciliation, I may be naive about its political possibility (no group is likely to surrender its place at the spoils trough on mere principle after all), but I just wish the idea had an effective proponent or two in power.
I operate on the outlandish notion that these too are my countrymen. You all publicly revel in the imagined demise of "whiteness" and its general awfulness, and then wonder, po-faced, at the reaction you get.
As for that reconciliation, I may be naive about its political possibility (no group is likely to surrender its place at the spoils trough on mere principle after all), but I just wish the idea had an effective proponent or two in power.
33
@27, We don't even have to go as far as your blog, we only have to go to your last post here on Slog, where the NBA is the apotheosis of the Civil Rights movement, and the WNBA is a joke because women suck at basketball, herp-derp.
38
Yeah yeah, but... Can we all agree that it's wrong to stomp somebody to death? And then brag about it?
Can we all agree that the future for this young man is not looking too bright at this point?
Can we all agree that the future for this young man is not looking too bright at this point?
39
It's not the policy you espouse in those posts, but the unabashed racism.
I'll call that progress, then, in all honesty.
We don't even have to go as far as your blog, we only have to go to your last post here on Slog, where the NBA is the apotheosis of the Civil Rights movement, and the WNBA is a joke because women suck at basketball, herp-derp
Yes! Thank you! I'm not hiding people. Let me have it if you must, but don't accuse me of being crypto. I am engaged in an experiment in forthrightness. I've come to some awful realizations about certain things, but I will not base my world-view on an argument to consequences.
I'll call that progress, then, in all honesty.
We don't even have to go as far as your blog, we only have to go to your last post here on Slog, where the NBA is the apotheosis of the Civil Rights movement, and the WNBA is a joke because women suck at basketball, herp-derp
Yes! Thank you! I'm not hiding people. Let me have it if you must, but don't accuse me of being crypto. I am engaged in an experiment in forthrightness. I've come to some awful realizations about certain things, but I will not base my world-view on an argument to consequences.
41
I thought Sarah Palin killed Tuba Man?
Blood libel!
That's a joke, on Palin. Before anyone gets carried away.
Blood libel!
That's a joke, on Palin. Before anyone gets carried away.
42
Seriously Dennis, your writing is terribly pedantic. You really should consider simplifying your style.
43
I don't see any racism in this latest effort (though in my defense, at this stage of the morning I am severely uncaffinated). And I agree with the general gist of the article; that this repeat offending, murderous lowlife is probably going to have a short and unhappy life. And (praise be!), the article is fairly fucking succinct!!!
So, good work DD.
So, good work DD.
46
@24 I'm thinking more of a cocktail instead of a shot this time. I'm going to do 2 parts cranberry vodka to one part cranberry juice with a splash of lime.
@27 No, you're a racist by the standards of anybody who isn't a racist.
@38: Yes I think we can all agree that this kid is an awful human being full stop.
@27 No, you're a racist by the standards of anybody who isn't a racist.
@38: Yes I think we can all agree that this kid is an awful human being full stop.
47
Dude, Dennis, you whine about being called "crypto" and then 2 sentences later you declare that you've come to "some awful realizations about certain things".
Here you are wanting all kinds of credit for telling us all THE COLD HARD TRUTHS, but at the same time you lack the simple decency and courage to motherfucking spell out what you're talking about. Instead you take us on a listless, random, wordy journey to no conclusion. It's hilarious that you think you're being honest and brave by whispering in code words under your breath on a liberal blog.
Allow me one more example, would you?
Man... any other middle-aged dude would just get his ass to the doctor and say "I am having some impotence issues, what can we do about this?" You however, post that "sexually I am hors de combat" and go on to whine about society on your stupid blog. For fuck's sake.
Here you are wanting all kinds of credit for telling us all THE COLD HARD TRUTHS, but at the same time you lack the simple decency and courage to motherfucking spell out what you're talking about. Instead you take us on a listless, random, wordy journey to no conclusion. It's hilarious that you think you're being honest and brave by whispering in code words under your breath on a liberal blog.
Allow me one more example, would you?
Here I am slouching through middle-age; sexually I am hors de combat, as if by some secret but final decree. I lament it but the sentence is just--and just as well (I wouldn't join any club that'd have me for a member, and I wouldn't conjoin with anyone who'd have my member); I haven't earned any better.
Man... any other middle-aged dude would just get his ass to the doctor and say "I am having some impotence issues, what can we do about this?" You however, post that "sexually I am hors de combat" and go on to whine about society on your stupid blog. For fuck's sake.
48
All class, barrenhood. And increasingly desperate. You make a fine bully--here in anonymity, that is.
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47: Here you are wanting all kinds of credit for telling us all THE COLD HARD TRUTHS, but at the same time you lack the simple decency and courage to motherfucking spell out what you're talking about. Instead you take us on a listless, random, wordy journey to no conclusion. It's hilarious that you think you're being honest and brave by whispering in code words under your breath on a liberal blog.
Mmm, this one is tres butch. I'm starting to get turned on.
Mmm, this one is tres butch. I'm starting to get turned on.
50
Dennis, when you make egregious White Male supremacist statements, don't expect to be treated with respect. Intolerance of intolerance is the only acceptable form of intolerance, given what you have a long history of saying, and a brief history of saying on Slog, Planned Barrenhood's actions are all class.
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@48: Well you *do* like to go on and on and ON, when going on and on would do. Buck up! Did you think posting on the Slog would be like pontificating at your own dinner table; your audience captive, forced to swallow both your opinions and their brussel sprouts?
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50: Dennis, when you make egregious White Male supremacist statements, don't expect to be treated with respect. Intolerance of intolerance is the only acceptable form of intolerance, given what you have a long history of saying, and a brief history of saying on Slog, Planned Barrenhood's actions are all class.
I rather expect Dennis already knows this, since the academic/media priesthood reminds us daily, hourly, with every bite and breath. So he probably lacks expectation, other than the one you winners are fulfilling. But it's certainly brave of you to get all high and moral, just for good measure. Anytime you need to remind yourself that you're much, much better than those ugly "White Male supremacists," well, you just find a Dale post and go right ahead!
I rather expect Dennis already knows this, since the academic/media priesthood reminds us daily, hourly, with every bite and breath. So he probably lacks expectation, other than the one you winners are fulfilling. But it's certainly brave of you to get all high and moral, just for good measure. Anytime you need to remind yourself that you're much, much better than those ugly "White Male supremacists," well, you just find a Dale post and go right ahead!
53
@ 52: Are you suggesting masochism then as a possible motive for Mr Dale's continued efforts here? I am dubious.
54
One more thing before I go. If, when considering these loaded questions, you have decided all that has been previously deemed racist can never be true, regardless of whatever new information may come in--congratulations, you are no longer engaged in the search for truth, but the defense of a faith. We in the reality-based community bid you adieu. The creationist community, engaged in their own fallacious, terror-driven assault on Darwin, are your philosophical fellows.
55
What's sad is seeing this shithead go on about how great white culture is as if it was his. It's not; it's got nothing to do with him. His world is as dead as a doornail, and he knows it. It's got no more use to him than these sandcastles he makes out of big words he doesn't know the use of have to us. Dennis's true milieu is what? The early bird special at Olde Country Buffet?
The apotheosis of the white supremacist worldview is the Iraq War. You're "against it", but it DEFINES YOU. It embodies you and everything you are, Dennis, darling. It's your culture, the one you're obsessed with defending. when you look up "white people" in the dictionary, there's a picture of George W. Bush there. He's your envoy, your surrogate. He's as good as it gets, going down that road.
The apotheosis of the white supremacist worldview is the Iraq War. You're "against it", but it DEFINES YOU. It embodies you and everything you are, Dennis, darling. It's your culture, the one you're obsessed with defending. when you look up "white people" in the dictionary, there's a picture of George W. Bush there. He's your envoy, your surrogate. He's as good as it gets, going down that road.
60
So glad you clarified, gus dear, because Fnarf seems like the sort who probably favours commando...
61
@43,
I think I get a whiff of it here:
It sure sounds like he thinks the black community is a-okay with murder, to the point of promoting an admitted murderer to celebrity status.
I think I get a whiff of it here:
his conspicuous lack of shame regarding the killing (or appreciation for the mercy shown him) suggests that on his block he's something of a celebrity:
It sure sounds like he thinks the black community is a-okay with murder, to the point of promoting an admitted murderer to celebrity status.
62
@54: Before you flounce off, could you possibly give an example of something once considered racist that has been redefined due to here to fore unknown information? Cuz that's a sweeping statement in need of some citation.
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@ 55: What's sad . . .
Yeah, blah, blah, blah. We all take you word for how sad it/he/we are. Congratulations, you're the big winner.
The apotheosis of the white supremacist worldview is the Iraq War. You're "against it", but it DEFINES YOU. It embodies you and everything you are, Dennis, darling. It's your culture, the one you're obsessed with defending. when you look up "white people" in the dictionary, there's a picture of George W. Bush there. He's your envoy, your surrogate. He's as good as it gets, going down that road.
Hmm, interesting. It turns out, though, to be the reverse way around.
I'll make this brief, so the haters can get on hating.
First of all, you can drop the white supremacist meme, unless you need it to get off, in which case keep poppin' them pills. I've read a bunch of Dale and never seen any allusion to white supremacy. It's just that there's a racial, particularist quality to his outlook. (1) What works and makes sense to one race might not to another. (2) Overall, it's sensible to incline toward one's own race. Oooh, raaaaacism--yes, I know, I've been told. Scary and horrible. Anyway.
Anyway, on that view, democracy is not to be universalized. It was a product of particular peoples under particular circumstances. It's not a disease everyone can catch, so it won't do globalize it. Just won't take.
Yet, on the liberal univeralist view it most certainly IS to be globalized. When the Jacobins took over their logic in part drove them to start up the process of democratic imperialism that continues in one form or another. Once you decide we're all interchangeable automatons, economically and morally, and that we're all owed (a changing set of) rights, then you've implicitly committed yourself to a planetary invasion and reconstruction project.
That's inarguably a major part of Bush's messianic outlook. And his actual record is unreflectively multiculturalist. That his political career was traded on the support of a white voting bloc does not a supremacist, or even a mild non-liberal, make. He's yours! :) xoxoxo
A+ for enthusiasm and ferocity, though, Fnarf.
More...
Yeah, blah, blah, blah. We all take you word for how sad it/he/we are. Congratulations, you're the big winner.
The apotheosis of the white supremacist worldview is the Iraq War. You're "against it", but it DEFINES YOU. It embodies you and everything you are, Dennis, darling. It's your culture, the one you're obsessed with defending. when you look up "white people" in the dictionary, there's a picture of George W. Bush there. He's your envoy, your surrogate. He's as good as it gets, going down that road.
Hmm, interesting. It turns out, though, to be the reverse way around.
I'll make this brief, so the haters can get on hating.
First of all, you can drop the white supremacist meme, unless you need it to get off, in which case keep poppin' them pills. I've read a bunch of Dale and never seen any allusion to white supremacy. It's just that there's a racial, particularist quality to his outlook. (1) What works and makes sense to one race might not to another. (2) Overall, it's sensible to incline toward one's own race. Oooh, raaaaacism--yes, I know, I've been told. Scary and horrible. Anyway.
Anyway, on that view, democracy is not to be universalized. It was a product of particular peoples under particular circumstances. It's not a disease everyone can catch, so it won't do globalize it. Just won't take.
Yet, on the liberal univeralist view it most certainly IS to be globalized. When the Jacobins took over their logic in part drove them to start up the process of democratic imperialism that continues in one form or another. Once you decide we're all interchangeable automatons, economically and morally, and that we're all owed (a changing set of) rights, then you've implicitly committed yourself to a planetary invasion and reconstruction project.
That's inarguably a major part of Bush's messianic outlook. And his actual record is unreflectively multiculturalist. That his political career was traded on the support of a white voting bloc does not a supremacist, or even a mild non-liberal, make. He's yours! :) xoxoxo
A+ for enthusiasm and ferocity, though, Fnarf.
64
@63, George Bush is a multiculturalist? Imperialism is the product of the liberal view-point? Are you fucking insane?
65
'what works and makes sense to one race might not to another'
yeah ..that's prolly right. i mean since there's no individual thought among any of the races. yeah.. that makes sense to me.
yeah ..that's prolly right. i mean since there's no individual thought among any of the races. yeah.. that makes sense to me.
66
Dear "Rhettro", you don't even know what race you are. But whatever you've got there, it's not scary and horrible: it's repulsive. We don't want to be a part of your party, however obsessed with the Jacobins (sigh) you might be.
We want you to fuck off to your own little corner, and do whatever the fuck it is you do there. You and your buddy Dennis and his cunt of a daughter. Go away. Can I make it any clearer?
We LIKE being multi-racial and multi-cultural. That's where the good culture IS. Yours? Not so much. The list of interesting or valuable things stuck-up white people (those who think they're all "anti-Jacobin" or something) have ever produced is very, very short.
We're better than you, in short. Straight white man culture is over, buck. I repeat: Olde Country Buffet. Get there soon, there's a special on pie in a few minutes.
We want you to fuck off to your own little corner, and do whatever the fuck it is you do there. You and your buddy Dennis and his cunt of a daughter. Go away. Can I make it any clearer?
We LIKE being multi-racial and multi-cultural. That's where the good culture IS. Yours? Not so much. The list of interesting or valuable things stuck-up white people (those who think they're all "anti-Jacobin" or something) have ever produced is very, very short.
We're better than you, in short. Straight white man culture is over, buck. I repeat: Olde Country Buffet. Get there soon, there's a special on pie in a few minutes.
68
You can do better, Riz. There's better pie. A lot better. I love pie a great deal, certainly better than any nasty old cake, but I wouldn't go there to eat it.
69
@54: if you are only looking for what is "true" in discredited racist tropes and are still today willfully ignoring all the blatant falsehoods, lies and malicious intents contained therein... then you surely are an asshole, & basically a racist..
70
Pie is the superior choice. There's good cake, and bad pie, but the best pie will always outdo the best cake.
71
Shit Rhettro, if you read it, it says 'endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights'. The idea is that rights aren't bestowed by anyone, they don't come with citizenship, everyone's got em. I guess if you don't agree with that, then rip the fucking thing up.
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@69, not just falsehoods, but irrelevancies. It's not that they're getting a bad answer here; it's that they're asking the wrong questions altogether. It's just not INTERESTING. The more time you spend thinking about the, ahem, "particularist quality" of "what makes sense for one race", the less time you have to actually pay attention to what the fuck you're looking at. It's like judging movies by how brightly lit they are.
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64: George Bush is a multiculturalist? Imperialism is the product of the liberal view-point? Are you fucking insane?
Oh, my--you're so right, aren't you? There's nothing at all to back up what I said. Embarrassing. I apologize. I don't know what came over me.
66: Dear "Rhettro", you don't even know what race you are.
?
But whatever you've got there, it's not scary and horrible: it's repulsive.
Yeah, got your bile. Noted.
. . . obsessed with the Jacobins (sigh) you might be.
I must be obsessed, since I mentioned a word to illuminate a point. Must be.
And then there was some more really scary bile. Really, it was scary. I was genuinely, like, intimidated and put off and all everything. You did really well with that.
We LIKE being multi-racial and multi-cultural.
Great!
That's where the good culture IS.
I'll take your word for it. No good art or culture was ever produced with white racial feeling. It's nice to learn these things again and again and again, after having learned them hundreds of times.
Yours? Not so much.
Apparently I'm narcissistic enough to think it all belongs to me, ME!!!
The list of interesting or valuable things stuck-up white people (those who think they're all "anti-Jacobin" or something) have ever produced is very, very short.
We're better than you, in short.
So I'm told, every day. Was this good for you, too?
Hey, don't blame me--Dale didn't ask my advice, and if he had I'd have said this project was foolhardy. PEACE!
Oh, my--you're so right, aren't you? There's nothing at all to back up what I said. Embarrassing. I apologize. I don't know what came over me.
66: Dear "Rhettro", you don't even know what race you are.
?
But whatever you've got there, it's not scary and horrible: it's repulsive.
Yeah, got your bile. Noted.
. . . obsessed with the Jacobins (sigh) you might be.
I must be obsessed, since I mentioned a word to illuminate a point. Must be.
And then there was some more really scary bile. Really, it was scary. I was genuinely, like, intimidated and put off and all everything. You did really well with that.
We LIKE being multi-racial and multi-cultural.
Great!
That's where the good culture IS.
I'll take your word for it. No good art or culture was ever produced with white racial feeling. It's nice to learn these things again and again and again, after having learned them hundreds of times.
Yours? Not so much.
Apparently I'm narcissistic enough to think it all belongs to me, ME!!!
The list of interesting or valuable things stuck-up white people (those who think they're all "anti-Jacobin" or something) have ever produced is very, very short.
We're better than you, in short.
So I'm told, every day. Was this good for you, too?
Hey, don't blame me--Dale didn't ask my advice, and if he had I'd have said this project was foolhardy. PEACE!
74
@63 Irving and Billyboy and that whole often-wrong lot of criminals are yours guy.
Also, basically implying that all those darkies in THAT neighborhood loves them some curb stomping is pretty white supremacist to me.
Also, basically implying that all those darkies in THAT neighborhood loves them some curb stomping is pretty white supremacist to me.
76
Dale @32:
So enacting the 14th Amendment was wrong? Because that certainly reconciled democracy to a diverse population.
And I still don't know what you were getting at with the original post, though I agree with your assessment that dude is a feral teen. Did you have a point, were you just posting something you thought was interesting, or what? Based on your known posting history and the company you keep it certainly smacks of some sort of under-the-breath race/class dog whistle. Did you cut off the blockquote where you did because you wanted to point out that he had public defenders and you're outraged that public defenders got him a relatively lenient sentence? Are you trying to say that violent kids should be punished as adults more often and get adult-sized sentences? Or are you just posting to post?
Why am I trying so hard?
meh.
As I've argued to the "racists" at those "hate" sites, our goal should be reconciling a diverse population to democracy, not, as we are currently doing, reconciling democracy to a diverse population.
So enacting the 14th Amendment was wrong? Because that certainly reconciled democracy to a diverse population.
And I still don't know what you were getting at with the original post, though I agree with your assessment that dude is a feral teen. Did you have a point, were you just posting something you thought was interesting, or what? Based on your known posting history and the company you keep it certainly smacks of some sort of under-the-breath race/class dog whistle. Did you cut off the blockquote where you did because you wanted to point out that he had public defenders and you're outraged that public defenders got him a relatively lenient sentence? Are you trying to say that violent kids should be punished as adults more often and get adult-sized sentences? Or are you just posting to post?
Why am I trying so hard?
meh.
77
@73 - Yeah, Fnarf does that. He's kind of a douche most of the time and loves to just call names after he's fed up. Don't let him control the conversation any more than we let Dale.
78
@Rhettro, it's not even fucking worth debating you. You are one of the most scurrilous commenters that's been around these parts lately. Take your jackboots and march back to whatever militia complex you call home.
79
Dennis and/or Rhettro: Please answer my question. Can you give an example of something once considered racist that has been redefined due to here to fore unknown information?
@66: Fnarf you know I love ya, but calling the daughter a cunt is offsides dude. We have no knowledge of her motives in giving her father this gift and we have no idea how she is reacting to his being eaten alive by liberals, or if she in any way shares his views. Lets stick to excoriating his profoundly fucked up positions and leave his family out of it, could we?
@66: Fnarf you know I love ya, but calling the daughter a cunt is offsides dude. We have no knowledge of her motives in giving her father this gift and we have no idea how she is reacting to his being eaten alive by liberals, or if she in any way shares his views. Lets stick to excoriating his profoundly fucked up positions and leave his family out of it, could we?
80
@79, I don't think it's offsides at all; there are no offsides. I never signed up for any of this civility nonsense, and if I did, what would be beyond the pale is white separatism, not a earthy euphemism for a member of the Dale family. Yes, euphemism; "cunt" is much milder than "Dale" in my book.
I don't really give a shit what her motives were; she dropped this bag of shit on our heads. She knew what kind of stuff he was going to give us. Fuck her. Fuck the whole crowd of them.
You're wasting your time trying to debate these jizzbags. FUCK THEM. Eat shit and die. This is not a tea party, and I am under no obligation to be nice.
I don't really give a shit what her motives were; she dropped this bag of shit on our heads. She knew what kind of stuff he was going to give us. Fuck her. Fuck the whole crowd of them.
You're wasting your time trying to debate these jizzbags. FUCK THEM. Eat shit and die. This is not a tea party, and I am under no obligation to be nice.
81
So, given that I'm somewhat new to this particular frat party, is this Strangercrombie auction always a visitation to one of Dante's circles of hell, or have there been cool ones in the past? (And I'm just waiting for the homophobe screeds to start...these things seem to go hand in hand.)
82
@81, I honestly don't remember the posts of previous Strangercrombie Slog-posting winners. Or winner; I have a vague recollection that last year was the first time this prize was offered. I'm probably wrong, though. I always think I've been posting here "about a year", when it's close to five.
83
@80: Yipe! Grumpy Fnarf haz a grumpy! I just don't think its fair to drag by standers into the fray is all. But you know me, I'm a softy. And I still love ya! Mwah!
84
@83, that's your prerogative. I don't see her as a bystander; I see her as a vector of poison. You think she never read his blog before?
Grump? Yes. I have a grump.
Grump? Yes. I have a grump.
87
Robert L. Jamieson Jr.: "The thugs also seized McMichael, who was "on the ground in a fetal position trying to protect himself as the group was kicking and punching him on the ground," wrote a police officer who pulled up to the scene and saw the attack.
Two of the lowlifes, both about 15 years old, were caught. Three fled.
Two of the lowlifes, both about 15 years old, were caught. Three fled.
88
@87: Indeed, the moral bankruptcy of subject of this post is not in question. He is an awful, awful person and most likely doomed to a short and evil life. I think we all agree on that. I loved Tuba Man, he was awesome, and sweet and made people happy. His death was so unfair, and I think that makes people grasp for reasons. Race is the straw that Dennis has chosen to clutch.
89
@Lissa: Dennis and/or Rhettro: Please answer my question. Can you give an example of something once considered racist that has been redefined due to here to fore unknown information?
Redefined by whom?
Listen, do you really get the impression that it's worth airing any part of my outlook in this thread? It's not an issue of intimidation, just of effort and return.
Redefined by whom?
Listen, do you really get the impression that it's worth airing any part of my outlook in this thread? It's not an issue of intimidation, just of effort and return.
90
So did Dennis just give up on this thread, or did he proper flounce? I can't wait to see if we will be the recipients of another paleoconserva-turd tomorrow.
91
@89: The question, in truth, is more for Dennis, as that sweeping statement was his. I included you since you two are of a similar point of view, and to be polite.
92
88: Race is the straw that Dennis has chosen to clutch.
Lissa, I must be missing something. I read Dennis's post and didn't see any mention of race. Stupidity, yes. Race, no.
Lissa, I must be missing something. I read Dennis's post and didn't see any mention of race. Stupidity, yes. Race, no.
93
Roma:
Look at the block quote in @61 and read between the lines. Can you honestly deny that there's an implication there, especially given this author's predilections to call out the "savagery" of those coming from the Dark Continent?
Look at the block quote in @61 and read between the lines. Can you honestly deny that there's an implication there, especially given this author's predilections to call out the "savagery" of those coming from the Dark Continent?
94
OH MY GOD HE IMPLIED SOMETHING ABOUT RACE. So now we have to have a big to-do.
It's a shame you guys can't laugh at yourselves. You're missing a great joke. These "racists" you're conjuring up aren't obsessed with race--you are! It's not the straw Dale is grasping--it's one among many straws he's including, as part of a profile and portrait of a given situation. (Oh gawd, did I just say "profile"? Heavens.) On that analogy it's the straw progressives apparently refuse ever ever ever to look toward, look AT, touch, or pick up, let alone grasp. It's all culture, people. No race to see here! Just keep moving.
It's a shame you guys can't laugh at yourselves. You're missing a great joke. These "racists" you're conjuring up aren't obsessed with race--you are! It's not the straw Dale is grasping--it's one among many straws he's including, as part of a profile and portrait of a given situation. (Oh gawd, did I just say "profile"? Heavens.) On that analogy it's the straw progressives apparently refuse ever ever ever to look toward, look AT, touch, or pick up, let alone grasp. It's all culture, people. No race to see here! Just keep moving.
95
I can laugh at myself, can you in your reflexive hatred for so-called progressives? (By the way, don't consider myself progressive--that's your fucking trap and you can keep it.) Seems like you have a big to-do with your capslock and your shitty retort to Fnark.
Actually, he's blowing a dog whistle, very common and sleazy. A neighborhood, geographic grouping, doesn't justify a profile. But I guess we should just let him say and get away with: "Look, this ill-behaved Boy comes from this negro neighborhood. He's encouraged by those negros to stomp on Tuba guy."
Actually, he's blowing a dog whistle, very common and sleazy. A neighborhood, geographic grouping, doesn't justify a profile. But I guess we should just let him say and get away with: "Look, this ill-behaved Boy comes from this negro neighborhood. He's encouraged by those negros to stomp on Tuba guy."
96
I must have hatred, and it must be reflexive. Also, my retorts are shitty. Damn, you guys are good!
97
dirac, I read that quote (and then went back and re-read it) and I don't see any implication about race there. But then, I'm also not aware of Dennis's "predilections to call out the "savagery" of those coming from the Dark Continent." Perhaps that was on another post I missed?
Furthermore, even if his post had been clearly racist, I detest racism but you know what I despise a lot more? Scumbag thug asshole kids beating and kicking a man to death.
Furthermore, even if his post had been clearly racist, I detest racism but you know what I despise a lot more? Scumbag thug asshole kids beating and kicking a man to death.
98
@97, No one here disputed that the kid's a scumbag thug asshole. But I don't think I or anyone else is off-topic by identifying people who use that event to confirm and expound their ideological orientation. Of course, it's not on the level of the asshole kid who killed Tuba Man, but I consider it pretty scummy too.
99
@88: I'd agree that the post contained no *overt* racism but that reference to the kid's neighborhood *did* kind of made me go hmmm. I think it was the rest of the stuff he's written here, (particularly his last flouncy comment on this thread) that's making me think that in a general sense race is his go to explanation for complex social problems. I dunno. Not really on my game this evening. And I haven't even done my shots yet! I'll try tomorrow to be a little clearer.
100
@97, Planned Barrenhood linked a couple of Dale's writings pertaining to race towards the beginning of the thread. I suggest you look at those. Also, did you miss yesterday's debacle about the WNBA? It wasn't exactly a shining beacon of racial understanding.
101
SPOILER ALERT !
taking that long moment waiting for my husband to come home for dinner i searched the innernets for more about this dd person and up pops his blog.. and this tidbit from tomorrow's screed...
' I don't want to be melodramatic (okay, maybe I do), but I fear I may have put a loved one in a difficult spot, socially at least, with my provocations here; my imagination runs wild with images of someone identifying her as the daughter of That Awful Man. Leave her out of it please, she didn't know what was in store--being young she has far better things to do than read my blog. She only knows that I periodically obsess over it and writing, and operates on the naïve assumption that a lifetime without evidence of anything like racial bigotry or misogyny (the desire—most pronounced in men, I believe—to live vicariously through our children, and the shrinking size of the family, has proven a sure cure for that) must mean I’m okay. When she surprised me with this gift, a part of me was terrified.'
i'm gonna go get my highball glasses cleaned for this one.
taking that long moment waiting for my husband to come home for dinner i searched the innernets for more about this dd person and up pops his blog.. and this tidbit from tomorrow's screed...
' I don't want to be melodramatic (okay, maybe I do), but I fear I may have put a loved one in a difficult spot, socially at least, with my provocations here; my imagination runs wild with images of someone identifying her as the daughter of That Awful Man. Leave her out of it please, she didn't know what was in store--being young she has far better things to do than read my blog. She only knows that I periodically obsess over it and writing, and operates on the naïve assumption that a lifetime without evidence of anything like racial bigotry or misogyny (the desire—most pronounced in men, I believe—to live vicariously through our children, and the shrinking size of the family, has proven a sure cure for that) must mean I’m okay. When she surprised me with this gift, a part of me was terrified.'
i'm gonna go get my highball glasses cleaned for this one.
102
dirac, I wonder how most Sloggers would react if a woman posted a thread here bashing men because she was angry at a teenager who, along with two other teenage boys, had raped and murdered a woman and then was back on the streets after serving just 18 months (and then had subsequently been arrested for threatening to rape another woman)? My position regarding her would be the same: I'd find her misandry appalling but would find the rape and murder of a woman by a thug kid far more appalling.
Lissa & samktg, you have apparently read other posts by Dennis which have contributed to your opinions. This is the only post of his that I've read so I don't have the context you guys do. samktg, I don't know anything about a WNBA debacle. During the workweek, my time reading posts here is limited.
Lissa & samktg, you have apparently read other posts by Dennis which have contributed to your opinions. This is the only post of his that I've read so I don't have the context you guys do. samktg, I don't know anything about a WNBA debacle. During the workweek, my time reading posts here is limited.
103
Canuck @81: Last year the person who won was connected with a really interesting charity (Noise for the Needy), and so we got to hear about using rock concerts to support charities, and Seattle charities they had worked with in the past year or so. There was even a post about how to volunteer.
So much better than this.
I'm having my second drink now, even if he only posted once. Reading these comments has given me a headache. I was going to drink a Parisian martini (crème de cassis, dry vermouth, gin) but I seem to be out of gin, and vodka, so I used a mix of whiskey and white rum. I can't decide whether to call it a Carcassone martini or a Montréal martini
So much better than this.
I'm having my second drink now, even if he only posted once. Reading these comments has given me a headache. I was going to drink a Parisian martini (crème de cassis, dry vermouth, gin) but I seem to be out of gin, and vodka, so I used a mix of whiskey and white rum. I can't decide whether to call it a Carcassone martini or a Montréal martini
104
Hey Roma, I'm sorry if that comment came across as sarcastic, this thread has been pretty caustic (to say the least) and I suppose I'm now just snapping my teeth at everyone. Anyway, here's Dale's post from yesterday: And Now a Little Something for the Ladie…. Dale's writing style is obtuse, but if you can bear to read through the whole thing, there are some real gems of misogyny and racism.
105
No problem, samktg (and I think sarcaustic would be a great new word.)
I'll read that post you linked to later (thanks)...I'm off to watch David Pogue talk about "strong stuff" on PBS.
I'll read that post you linked to later (thanks)...I'm off to watch David Pogue talk about "strong stuff" on PBS.
106
@102, OK. That's fine.
I've spent far too long on this thread anyway. Here's to relaxing times away from a screen!
I've spent far too long on this thread anyway. Here's to relaxing times away from a screen!
107
Canadian Nurse, I am sadly lacking in the cocktail department, they always sound delicious, but I tend to just have red wine, or a Guinness, or maybe a gin & tonic (margaritas for girls' night out, of course, couldn't bust a "solid gold" dance move without a few of those), but your concoctions sound lovely. Carcasonne is somehow connected to the divine feminine mythology, no? An abbey, or something? Hmmm, too lazy to google. Good night, nurse...heh.
108
All I've really learned by reading these comments that most self-styled Seattle progressives are undereducated, high-anxiety white people with short attention spans who really don't like big words or anything straying from the accepted orthodoxy. Carry on, valiant warriors against whatever!
109
Make a point instead of backhanded veiled aspersions and maybe we could start somewhere. So are you the third interloper to flounce? State your point clearly and succintly, and stick around and argue your point in good faith.
I dare you.
I dare you.
110
@108 allow my introduction. reverend dr dj riz ..a self styled high flighty dim white person since 10:30. valiant, ... i feel better already.
111
@108, this doesn't have anything to do with big words. It has to do with WHITE POWER. I've got a bigger dictionary than this slime, and a better one too. But this isn't about vocabulary or style.
@102, maybe you should read at least this slime's posts here on Slog if you haven't already. Then you should investigate the kind of websites he normally writes for. We're not talking "right wing" or "conservative" here. We're talking about explicit white power. The "racial, particular quality" Dennis is bringing here is that brown people aren't fit for democracy or for America. That's the subtext. That's the dog whistle you're not hearing.
Just because Dennis writes complex English, breathes through his nose, and avoids going out in public in a white sheet doesn't mean that he's not an explicit white supremacist. Er, excuse me, white SEPARATIST.
And our Dennis has made it perfectly clear that when he says "white" he means "white men". Women playing sports is a moral offense; not that they're inferior or anything, it's just not what they're suited for, with those child-bearing hips and tiny craniums and all. No, it's white men who should be doing the important work, like they used to before the liberals got in three hundred years ago.
When this kind of race-baiting garbage starts backing up out of the drain it's not right to try to argue with it. It needs to be flushed. This man is our mortal enemy. If you can't see that, then you need to look more closely. This isn't Ronald Reagan or George Bush or even Rand Paul; he wants to send us all to the camps.
@102, maybe you should read at least this slime's posts here on Slog if you haven't already. Then you should investigate the kind of websites he normally writes for. We're not talking "right wing" or "conservative" here. We're talking about explicit white power. The "racial, particular quality" Dennis is bringing here is that brown people aren't fit for democracy or for America. That's the subtext. That's the dog whistle you're not hearing.
Just because Dennis writes complex English, breathes through his nose, and avoids going out in public in a white sheet doesn't mean that he's not an explicit white supremacist. Er, excuse me, white SEPARATIST.
And our Dennis has made it perfectly clear that when he says "white" he means "white men". Women playing sports is a moral offense; not that they're inferior or anything, it's just not what they're suited for, with those child-bearing hips and tiny craniums and all. No, it's white men who should be doing the important work, like they used to before the liberals got in three hundred years ago.
When this kind of race-baiting garbage starts backing up out of the drain it's not right to try to argue with it. It needs to be flushed. This man is our mortal enemy. If you can't see that, then you need to look more closely. This isn't Ronald Reagan or George Bush or even Rand Paul; he wants to send us all to the camps.
112
111: . . .he wants to send us all to the camps.
Like, a fun summer camp for people with Nazi Tourettes? I'd support that.
Like, a fun summer camp for people with Nazi Tourettes? I'd support that.
113
My comments get deleted, but this junk and more junk like it passes muster?
@Rhettro, it's not even fucking worth debating you. You are one of the most scurrilous commenters that's been around these parts lately. Take your jackboots and march back to whatever militia complex you call home.
This sure is a special place for special people. Credit to the moderators, for working to keep it that way.
@Rhettro, it's not even fucking worth debating you. You are one of the most scurrilous commenters that's been around these parts lately. Take your jackboots and march back to whatever militia complex you call home.
This sure is a special place for special people. Credit to the moderators, for working to keep it that way.
114
@113 It doesn't help that your lame hyperbole and exaggerism doesn't really prove anything other than the fact that you have no real argument to make.
115
@111: SEE!(Dj Riz @101) I told you! His poor daughter just thought she was doing something nice for her goofy blog happy dad, and for Strangercrombie, and now she's got Sloggers howling for her head! Plus she's getting an awful peek into her father's psyche.
116
@113: I doubt your comment got pulled. When that happens there's a little box that everyone can see indicating that. Kind of like what the the non registered comments look like when they are hidden.
117
Canuck,
I used to be mostly beer & wine, myself, but then I developed and allergy to wheat and barley. So, a pint of beer will give me hives all over my chest and neck. After a year of drinking wine and cider, I got bored and started experimenting. Now I'm a bartending fiend.
Carcassone is beautiful. I don't know the mythology, though. I'll have to look it up.
I keep thinking I'll reply to the assertion: "Overall, it's sensible to incline toward one's own race." from Rhettro, but I can't manage to make it through two sentences without cursing. Plus, anyone who can hold belief as self-evident is probably not going to listen to my reasoning.
I used to be mostly beer & wine, myself, but then I developed and allergy to wheat and barley. So, a pint of beer will give me hives all over my chest and neck. After a year of drinking wine and cider, I got bored and started experimenting. Now I'm a bartending fiend.
Carcassone is beautiful. I don't know the mythology, though. I'll have to look it up.
I keep thinking I'll reply to the assertion: "Overall, it's sensible to incline toward one's own race." from Rhettro, but I can't manage to make it through two sentences without cursing. Plus, anyone who can hold belief as self-evident is probably not going to listen to my reasoning.
118
The thing that I find most annoying about Dennis in this comments thread is that he is trying to peddle this stupid bullshit image of him being some sort of martyr for truth since he is willing to state the unpopular and politically incorrect. I hate this now, I hate this every time someone writes one of those "I hate to say it, but racial profiling in airport screenings would make sense" articles. It's not that I really even care that these people may or may not be racists. What I care about is this masturbatory self-congratulation for an imagined sacrifice that no one asked them to "make."
Also, the other night, I was pretty horrified when I saw in my RSS feed reader that Dennis had posted about this guest-blogging gig on The American Conservative's blog. American Conservative, no! Why associate yourself with this sort of pretentious gasbag?
Also, the other night, I was pretty horrified when I saw in my RSS feed reader that Dennis had posted about this guest-blogging gig on The American Conservative's blog. American Conservative, no! Why associate yourself with this sort of pretentious gasbag?
119
Also, FWIW, Fnarf--you are being just as annoying as Dennis right now. You are so on-target in so many threads, but then every once in a while, you go off into one of these profanity-laden meanders into incoherence. Take a chill pill and stop calling the guy's daughter a cunt.
120
Matt Luby. We all now love you. Please come back. We didn't realise how good we had it with you until this jackass showed up.
123
@113, No one's censored you here, you asshat.
Thank god for lesser demons like Luby. At least you can talk to them.
Thank god for lesser demons like Luby. At least you can talk to them.
124
@113 comments don't get pulled on slog. unless they are spam.
suck the shit out of my ass with a straw.
see?
suck the shit out of my ass with a straw.
see?
125
fnarf i like it when you go off on profanity laden tirades and call people's daughters cunts. dont listen to the 'chill pill' softies.
anyway uh whats all the fuss about?
anyway uh whats all the fuss about?
126
I think my comment did show up eventually. Weird browser issue. It would have done to say, "You're not being censored," but darnit, samktq, you had to be vicious about it and get me all aroused. Really hot under the collar over here. Don't be shy--gimme some more venom.
And Luby! Behold the predictable hindbrain cheers for the archetypal "lesser demon." How's the feed in your kennel, Luby? Is the dog bed warm?
And Luby! Behold the predictable hindbrain cheers for the archetypal "lesser demon." How's the feed in your kennel, Luby? Is the dog bed warm?
127
I stand by "cunt". The poor girl has to learn sometime that there are consequences to hanging out with the (modern, sophisticated version of the) KKK. As if she didn't know.
128
@127: "Hanging out with"? You mean, having a father that . . . that gets careflessly, unreflectively caricatured as vicious historical villain, because he . . . thinks race exists.
You're right. Getting all uppity, and "KKK this" and "Nazi that" is easier. Go with it.
You're right. Getting all uppity, and "KKK this" and "Nazi that" is easier. Go with it.
129
It's easier because it's true, cock. We've seen the likes of you and your buddy before; at least I have. You are putrid. And the girlie spent good money bringing your poison to us.
While your views are antediluvian, your uniquely passive argumentative style is thoroughly modern. It puts the lie to any claim to the world of ideas, though. You don't have any ideas; only rhetoric. "Race exists", you say; well, come on, out with it. Race exists AND? You won't give us anything to hold onto because you know how repulsive your ideas are in the light, and because you're actually only whistling and signaling to yourselves. "Race exists" encapsulates a philosophy for you; it's not meant to communicate.
Why don't you stop being coy and tell us what you really mean?
While your views are antediluvian, your uniquely passive argumentative style is thoroughly modern. It puts the lie to any claim to the world of ideas, though. You don't have any ideas; only rhetoric. "Race exists", you say; well, come on, out with it. Race exists AND? You won't give us anything to hold onto because you know how repulsive your ideas are in the light, and because you're actually only whistling and signaling to yourselves. "Race exists" encapsulates a philosophy for you; it's not meant to communicate.
Why don't you stop being coy and tell us what you really mean?
131
129: It's easier because it's true, cock. We've seen the likes of you and your buddy before; at least I have. You are putrid. And the girlie spent good money bringing your poison to us.
While your views are antediluvian, your uniquely passive argumentative style is thoroughly modern. It puts the lie to any claim to the world of ideas, though. You don't have any ideas; only rhetoric. "Race exists", you say; well, come on, out with it. Race exists AND? You won't give us anything to hold onto because you know how repulsive your ideas are in the light, and because you're actually only whistling and signaling to yourselves. "Race exists" encapsulates a philosophy for you; it's not meant to communicate.
Why don't you stop being coy and tell us what you really mean?
You are SO right. You're no less forceful, revelatory, and unambiguously right for being my millionth customer. I'm so embarrassed. The burden of proof and explanation is all mine, and I can't carry it, because I have no ideas. None. What a crushing defeat. You win!
While your views are antediluvian, your uniquely passive argumentative style is thoroughly modern. It puts the lie to any claim to the world of ideas, though. You don't have any ideas; only rhetoric. "Race exists", you say; well, come on, out with it. Race exists AND? You won't give us anything to hold onto because you know how repulsive your ideas are in the light, and because you're actually only whistling and signaling to yourselves. "Race exists" encapsulates a philosophy for you; it's not meant to communicate.
Why don't you stop being coy and tell us what you really mean?
You are SO right. You're no less forceful, revelatory, and unambiguously right for being my millionth customer. I'm so embarrassed. The burden of proof and explanation is all mine, and I can't carry it, because I have no ideas. None. What a crushing defeat. You win!
132
@131: Rephrasing Fnarf in a sarcastic manner does not refute what he wrote. Answer the question. Present your case.
135
134: Rephrasing Fnarf in a sarcastic manner does not refute what he wrote. Answer the question. Present your case.
There's no point in refutation or dialogue.
It's never dialogue when it's begun in the bigoted, interrogatory liberal manner. I'm not tone deaf. I know when it's worth responding to, "Explain yourself. What are you implying? What do you mean?"
I started off as a liberal, but I gave non-liberal cases time to unfold, rather than demanding all the satisfying answers explicitly and immediately. I read a lot of Books You're Not Supposed To Read, met a lot of Evil People. I ended up rather persuaded.
But you're right--my basic point is, there's a case for all of this, and you're not ready for it. That makes me a troll, or whatever. Just sayin'.
There's no point in refutation or dialogue.
It's never dialogue when it's begun in the bigoted, interrogatory liberal manner. I'm not tone deaf. I know when it's worth responding to, "Explain yourself. What are you implying? What do you mean?"
I started off as a liberal, but I gave non-liberal cases time to unfold, rather than demanding all the satisfying answers explicitly and immediately. I read a lot of Books You're Not Supposed To Read, met a lot of Evil People. I ended up rather persuaded.
But you're right--my basic point is, there's a case for all of this, and you're not ready for it. That makes me a troll, or whatever. Just sayin'.
136
Oh, please, "you're not ready for it". Uh-huh. "A case for all of this" -- a case for WHAT? So you read "The Bell Curve" and what, some Lincoln Rockwell, some David Duke, a couple of sticky back issues of "American Renaissance", some old White Citizens Council newsletters? What aren't we ready for? When we're finally ready, what are we going to get? More Jared Loughner?
137
@135: Not ready for what? What Forbidden Books? I'm not calling you names so you can't use that as an excuse. I'm asking you to put your money where your mouth is.
Either you think your view point is worth defending, or you leave us with the sneaking suspicion that even you know, that it is in fact, indefensible.
Either you think your view point is worth defending, or you leave us with the sneaking suspicion that even you know, that it is in fact, indefensible.
138
@135. Yeah, this is entertaining. It's like you're pretending to be conservative Ben Kenobi--I can't know about the Dark Side because we're not ready to know of it's awesome power. Not a way to have a discussion, not even a very clever way to troll.
"But oh, you liberals are so good and I am so bad!"
What a dumb formula.
"But oh, you liberals are so good and I am so bad!"
What a dumb formula.
139
137: Not ready for what? What Forbidden Books? I'm not calling you names so you can't use that as an excuse.
I've noticed. Appreciated, as far as it goes.
I'm asking you to put your money where your mouth is.
Either you think your view point is worth defending, or you leave us with the sneaking suspicion that even you know, that it is in fact, indefensible.
You're asking me . . . in the context of this thread, its spirit, and internet anonymity. What do I care whether you're left suspicious? Who are you to me? I'm willing to say Lissa is relatively more neutral and open and less petty and abusive than the rest, but that's not saying much. And so what anyway? Am I supposed to slave away at comments and explanations, dredge up double-blind studies and weighty quotations, so I can be called repulsive a few more times? You pick your spots. This ain't mine!
138: It's like you're pretending to be conservative Ben Kenobi--I can't know about the Dark Side because we're not ready to know of it's awesome power. Not a way to have a discussion, not even a very clever way to troll.
Uh, no. No awesome power here. And not really an attempt at a discussion, either. But I'll accept full blame, as far as it goes. Thanks!
I've noticed. Appreciated, as far as it goes.
I'm asking you to put your money where your mouth is.
Either you think your view point is worth defending, or you leave us with the sneaking suspicion that even you know, that it is in fact, indefensible.
You're asking me . . . in the context of this thread, its spirit, and internet anonymity. What do I care whether you're left suspicious? Who are you to me? I'm willing to say Lissa is relatively more neutral and open and less petty and abusive than the rest, but that's not saying much. And so what anyway? Am I supposed to slave away at comments and explanations, dredge up double-blind studies and weighty quotations, so I can be called repulsive a few more times? You pick your spots. This ain't mine!
138: It's like you're pretending to be conservative Ben Kenobi--I can't know about the Dark Side because we're not ready to know of it's awesome power. Not a way to have a discussion, not even a very clever way to troll.
Uh, no. No awesome power here. And not really an attempt at a discussion, either. But I'll accept full blame, as far as it goes. Thanks!
141
@139, so hey, did "David Duke" hit a nerve, or was it "Lincoln Rockwell"? Whatever it was, you're a monument of butthurt. You should have a doctor look at that. Doctor of Passive-Aggressive Bullshit.
142
I get it though, liberals are the bigoted ones. We've beaten you up in this thread. Right? More of the passive aggressive, "you're so right" formula?
Also, I'd like to know how "race is real." Do you mean biologically?
Also, I'd like to know how "race is real." Do you mean biologically?
143
@141, aw, I know! It really was just the whole seamless thing, the way you just completely owned me. I was all like, "Oh, man, David Duke! Oh, man, Lincoln Rockwell! He has me so figured out! There's nowhere to turn! I totally thought I was going to win a comment thread here for once with my raaaaacism!"
But I didn't. You did. You totally did.
But I didn't. You did. You totally did.
144
@142: Wait--is there a formula that will work, that's better than mine? I MUST HAVE IT!
And yeah, biologically. Like, with traits and behavior and stuff.
And yeah, biologically. Like, with traits and behavior and stuff.
145
@144, No you're formula works just fine Rhettro! You win. I am bad...you so owned all of us "liberals" with your superior knowledge that you didn't share because we're not at your maturational point yet.
Also, OK. At least I know what you mean. Although it's contested that race has any genetic significance, so I don't consider that settled at all.
But I guess you know that because you owned all of SLOG by not saying anything.
Also, OK. At least I know what you mean. Although it's contested that race has any genetic significance, so I don't consider that settled at all.
But I guess you know that because you owned all of SLOG by not saying anything.
146
@12
The only thing Dale left out was this.
After thousands of years of musical evolution, hip hop drags music back to where it started. Tribal chanting with a simple drum line and strong overtones of misogeny, with no musical sophistication or indeed value is what hip hop offers. The sad thing is that this de-evolution of the musical form is celebrated, rather than laughed at. The sad thing is that young men play this garbage at the top of their car stereo capacity, rather than being decently embarrassed by their complete lack of taste in music.
After Beethoven's 7th Symphony and the harmonious tones of Mozart, after the wonderful improvisatons of jazz and the divergent streams of blues and country music, adherents of this form of 'music' reject everything worthwhile in music. It's as if all of todays young people rejected any form of transportation involving the wheel and elected to walk. It would be possible, sure, but why in the hell would anyone do it?
The only thing Dale left out was this.
After thousands of years of musical evolution, hip hop drags music back to where it started. Tribal chanting with a simple drum line and strong overtones of misogeny, with no musical sophistication or indeed value is what hip hop offers. The sad thing is that this de-evolution of the musical form is celebrated, rather than laughed at. The sad thing is that young men play this garbage at the top of their car stereo capacity, rather than being decently embarrassed by their complete lack of taste in music.
After Beethoven's 7th Symphony and the harmonious tones of Mozart, after the wonderful improvisatons of jazz and the divergent streams of blues and country music, adherents of this form of 'music' reject everything worthwhile in music. It's as if all of todays young people rejected any form of transportation involving the wheel and elected to walk. It would be possible, sure, but why in the hell would anyone do it?
147
@146, For fucks sake SB, do you know anything about hip-hop beyond the top 40 you've heard blasting from car stereos? Do you know anything about the musical tradition you denigrate? No, you clearly don't.
148
@139: I see.
Rhettro, I told you that this wasn’t your house, and that the people here weren’t going to let things slide. Sloggers fight among *themselves* like cats in a sack and if you want to play you have to bring your game. Go big or go home.
We’ll start with a simple question: What Forbidden Books?
Rhettro, I told you that this wasn’t your house, and that the people here weren’t going to let things slide. Sloggers fight among *themselves* like cats in a sack and if you want to play you have to bring your game. Go big or go home.
We’ll start with a simple question: What Forbidden Books?
149
@146:Yes, yes, those damn kids and their incomprehensible racket, why won’t they get off your lawn. Jesus SB you are SUCH a stereotype!
150
@149
Nah. It isn't incomprehensible. Fuck and bitch and ho and nigger and all the other wonderful words they use of peace and love for their fellow men are perfectly understandable. The perfect example set by the performers is one I would wish I could emulate, too. Wearing exercise clothes out to dinner in fine restaurants and enough gold to ballast my sailboat on my person at all times, while shooting or threatening to shoot my fellow performers sets a fine tone for the industry. I mean, what better could I want for my daughter than to listen to music which refers to her with eminently respectful terms like bitch and whore, and talks about treating her like a sexual toy for some thugs amusement? What better for my son than songs about killing policemen and gang fights and doing drugs and treating women badly? What better musical education than simply eschewing all that music accomplished in 4000 years and going back to tribal campfire chanting?
I don't actually have a lawn. I hate mowing them, so we bought a place that is mostly forested, with a bit of paved patio area for outdoor use. Nor am I all that old. I just have taste in music, unlike most high school and young college age kids currently. There is a continuum in which my grandfather thought Elvis was disgusting. My father disliked my music. And I dislike my kids music. The difference is that the music I and my dad listened to was actually music. My dad may have disliked it, but a person actually had to have some musical ability to perform it. He could dislike it, but recognize it as taking part in the western musical tradition. Rap is not music. It is hateful violent angry and ill educated ranting in surprisingly ineloquent verbiage. If I want that I'll go to some anti-war protest, or watch the French on TV in one of their interminable and pointless strikes.
More...
Nah. It isn't incomprehensible. Fuck and bitch and ho and nigger and all the other wonderful words they use of peace and love for their fellow men are perfectly understandable. The perfect example set by the performers is one I would wish I could emulate, too. Wearing exercise clothes out to dinner in fine restaurants and enough gold to ballast my sailboat on my person at all times, while shooting or threatening to shoot my fellow performers sets a fine tone for the industry. I mean, what better could I want for my daughter than to listen to music which refers to her with eminently respectful terms like bitch and whore, and talks about treating her like a sexual toy for some thugs amusement? What better for my son than songs about killing policemen and gang fights and doing drugs and treating women badly? What better musical education than simply eschewing all that music accomplished in 4000 years and going back to tribal campfire chanting?
I don't actually have a lawn. I hate mowing them, so we bought a place that is mostly forested, with a bit of paved patio area for outdoor use. Nor am I all that old. I just have taste in music, unlike most high school and young college age kids currently. There is a continuum in which my grandfather thought Elvis was disgusting. My father disliked my music. And I dislike my kids music. The difference is that the music I and my dad listened to was actually music. My dad may have disliked it, but a person actually had to have some musical ability to perform it. He could dislike it, but recognize it as taking part in the western musical tradition. Rap is not music. It is hateful violent angry and ill educated ranting in surprisingly ineloquent verbiage. If I want that I'll go to some anti-war protest, or watch the French on TV in one of their interminable and pointless strikes.
151
@150: SB, I refer you to samktq at comment 147. You haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about. There is more to Rap than gangsta, and you can find misogyny and hymns to violence and excess in any form of music that contains lyrics. What exactly did you think the Stones were talking about in "Under my Thumb"? The Velvet Underground in "Venus in Furs"? Slipknot in"Wait and Bleed"?
You think you hate the music your kids listen to now? Wait until you hear what your grandkids generation will be playing at their same sex weddings! And your children will stand by the buffet table and say the same thing you just did: "The difference is that the music I and my dad listened to was actually music" Harumph, harumph!
Go to bed Grandpa, go to bed.
You think you hate the music your kids listen to now? Wait until you hear what your grandkids generation will be playing at their same sex weddings! And your children will stand by the buffet table and say the same thing you just did: "The difference is that the music I and my dad listened to was actually music" Harumph, harumph!
Go to bed Grandpa, go to bed.
152
Y'know, SB, that "tribal campfire chanting" has a hell of a lot more than 4000 years of glorious history to it. The Western Tradition is not "better" than any other tradition, it is simply different. Besides, the perspective you have on the Western tradition is incredibly dated, and went out before you were even born. The Classicism you cling to was limping along at the advent of the 20th century, and WWI broke it's back. You don't know what the shit you're talking about.
153
148: Lissa, there's something alright about you, but you're trying too hard. I barely know what this website is. I'm untraumatized by the flak, and there's no need for this hokey finger wagging--"Oh, you silly Rhettro, shoulda known what you were doing coming into the SLOG house. Got yerself in a pickle now!" It's all a big whatever. I do enjoy making light of people who say things like, "The Western Tradition is not 'better' than any other," as if they were butch and brave and revelatory in saying so. Jesus, this canned moralism, this synthetic radicalism, this supermarket courage. You keep prodding me to say something--but I take "say" rather to mean produce, originate, reveal, and "something" to indicate substance or content. We're all trained to reproduce these routinized, unreflective mind secretions, we all know what they are, our minds have been through them thousands of times. Isn't anyone bored to hear this all again, or angry at people who trot it out like it's their own individually-arrived-at moral view? That's how I feel at least. As for refuting or dialoguing or whatever, well, I just don't feel safe around you folks. I'm very shy and cowardly and easily intimidated, and I need to have a lot of trust built before I open up.
And why are you asking about these books? What is the point? Don't you see the other shoe dropping? It'll land at some point. But if you must know, the first two non-assigned books I read were America's Great Depression, by Murray Rothbard, and Democracy: The God That Failed, by Hans-Hermann Hoppe. I was never converted or convinced by anyone but those books did smash my trust in my handlers, and I never took them seriously again.
But what was the point of bringing it up? Now we both get to hear huffy insults about Austrian Economics and Ron Paul and whatever grab bag of allusions people here can pull out of their ideological grids. It's not getting anyone anywhere.
More...
And why are you asking about these books? What is the point? Don't you see the other shoe dropping? It'll land at some point. But if you must know, the first two non-assigned books I read were America's Great Depression, by Murray Rothbard, and Democracy: The God That Failed, by Hans-Hermann Hoppe. I was never converted or convinced by anyone but those books did smash my trust in my handlers, and I never took them seriously again.
But what was the point of bringing it up? Now we both get to hear huffy insults about Austrian Economics and Ron Paul and whatever grab bag of allusions people here can pull out of their ideological grids. It's not getting anyone anywhere.
154
@ Seattleblues 146,
Totally off topic, but why'd you pick Beethoven's 7th symphony?
The 9th or 5th (or even the 6th) seem like better examples. The only reason I can think is that Beethoven himself thought his 7th was one of his best.
Or is the 7th simply your favorite? Or did you just pick one at random?
Just wondering
Totally off topic, but why'd you pick Beethoven's 7th symphony?
The 9th or 5th (or even the 6th) seem like better examples. The only reason I can think is that Beethoven himself thought his 7th was one of his best.
Or is the 7th simply your favorite? Or did you just pick one at random?
Just wondering
155
@ 153: Either you're not traumatized or you don't feel safe and are shy and cowardly. Pick.
I'm not wagging my finger. I don't think you're in a pickle. I'm saying you want to throw sass, be prepared to back that sass up with something other than rephrasing what people say in a sarcastic voice. That's not argument. That's not dialog. That's "I know you are but what am I?"and that shit is for children. You read grown up books ( and thank you by the way for those two titles, no idea why they are Forbidden, will have to look into that) Act like a grown up and defend your ideas.( Ok, maybe I'm wagging my finger a little.) And by the way I probably totally disagree with your ideas but I'll never know if you don't FUCKING ACTUALLY TALK ABOUT THEM. Otherwise, yeah, you're just a troll. And who wants to be that?
I'm not wagging my finger. I don't think you're in a pickle. I'm saying you want to throw sass, be prepared to back that sass up with something other than rephrasing what people say in a sarcastic voice. That's not argument. That's not dialog. That's "I know you are but what am I?"and that shit is for children. You read grown up books ( and thank you by the way for those two titles, no idea why they are Forbidden, will have to look into that) Act like a grown up and defend your ideas.( Ok, maybe I'm wagging my finger a little.) And by the way I probably totally disagree with your ideas but I'll never know if you don't FUCKING ACTUALLY TALK ABOUT THEM. Otherwise, yeah, you're just a troll. And who wants to be that?
157
@154
The 7th, particularly the 2nd movement, is my favorite. A favorite author says of Beethoven that he "puts the world in perspective, even if sometimes sadly." I don't find that particular piece in its' totality sad, but I do find it puts things in perspective. I guess it's because the piece is so delicate in construction, but so powerful in effect. As long as anything that perfectly beautiful can be made by human beings and we know enough to treasure these things, it's difficult to let temporary distractions trouble me.
The 7th, particularly the 2nd movement, is my favorite. A favorite author says of Beethoven that he "puts the world in perspective, even if sometimes sadly." I don't find that particular piece in its' totality sad, but I do find it puts things in perspective. I guess it's because the piece is so delicate in construction, but so powerful in effect. As long as anything that perfectly beautiful can be made by human beings and we know enough to treasure these things, it's difficult to let temporary distractions trouble me.
159
@153, Okay, I'll bite. I'm going to regret this, no doubt, but I'll bite. When I say the Western tradition isn't better than other cultures, but different, I do not operate under the belief that I am being 'brave' or 'radical' or 'butch'. Given the fact that humans have been making art and music for at least 35,000 years (i.e. making culture), the idea that any one tradition is superior to any other is patently absurd. Furthermore, no human has the objectivity to so much as select any criteria by which one could even begin to judge the quality of a culture as a whole. You can have opinions, like "I don't care for the 'African' musical tradition, I prefer the Western tradition", but to such aesthetic judgments are subjective, they are not a valid basis to rank entire cultures or traditions. This is not reflexive, homogenized "supermarket courage" to say this, but the product of a great deal of reading about and looking at our own tradition, and those of other cultures. Human cultural endeavor is sublime in its variety, expression, and most importantly, similarity. Quality of production and content may vary depending on its context (here is where one may make qualitative judgments, like 'this painting is better than that painting', or 'this movement is better than that movement'), but even the trashiest velvet painting is indicative of the stunning beauty and complexity of the human experience. In such an enormous and tangled web as humanity, you are in no position to pass judgment on entire cultures.
160
@157,
I love the allegretto of the 7th too. I do find it sad though... but I like that it's sad. I feel that the minor keys should be sad, and this one is perfection.
I have to admit that, even though it seems like the "popular" choice, I just adore the 9th symphony more than any of his other works. I've listened to the entire thing over and over countless times, and it always leaves me absolutely amazed! I guess that's why it IS so popular.
Anyway, I was just wondering, since I'm a Beethoven enthusiast. Then again, everything he touched turned to gold, so if the 7th is your favorite, I can't really argue, it's another masterpiece among masterpieces. What more can be said, the man was pure, artistic genius.
I love the allegretto of the 7th too. I do find it sad though... but I like that it's sad. I feel that the minor keys should be sad, and this one is perfection.
I have to admit that, even though it seems like the "popular" choice, I just adore the 9th symphony more than any of his other works. I've listened to the entire thing over and over countless times, and it always leaves me absolutely amazed! I guess that's why it IS so popular.
Anyway, I was just wondering, since I'm a Beethoven enthusiast. Then again, everything he touched turned to gold, so if the 7th is your favorite, I can't really argue, it's another masterpiece among masterpieces. What more can be said, the man was pure, artistic genius.
161
Dennis/Rhettro
"We're all trained to reproduce these routinized, unreflective mind secretions"
is one of many impenetrable thoughts in this essay. Honest to God we are trying to understand. Please describe how we are "trained." What does "unreflective" mean in this context. And for heaven's sake, define "secretions." This sounds a little weird and paranoid. Please explain yourself a little. If your points are valid we'll have a spirited conversation.
OK?
"We're all trained to reproduce these routinized, unreflective mind secretions"
is one of many impenetrable thoughts in this essay. Honest to God we are trying to understand. Please describe how we are "trained." What does "unreflective" mean in this context. And for heaven's sake, define "secretions." This sounds a little weird and paranoid. Please explain yourself a little. If your points are valid we'll have a spirited conversation.
OK?
162
If all you know about African music is "tribal campfire chanting", you should probably keep your mouth shut. Saying things like that suggests some deep holes in your appreciation of where those "divergent streams" come from. African music is rich and varied, and is more properly thought of as "musics". Plucked strings and Islamic-inspired tight, sinuous vocals from the Senegambia, drums, more drums, and a communalized, relaxed vocal interjection style from Congo and Angola, and the glorious synthesis of the Yoruba in the middle. If you don't know at least this basic difference, and where in the Americas these groups were brought as slaves, and when, you don't know anything at all.
163
155: Either you're not traumatized or you don't feel safe and are shy and cowardly. Pick.
No, I'm still both. I'm not threatened, but for the most part I'm unmoved by insistent calls to "Explain yourself! Justify your point of view!"
I'm saying you want to throw sass, be prepared to back that sass up with something other than rephrasing what people say in a sarcastic voice. That's not argument. That's not dialog. That's "I know you are but what am I?"and that shit is for children.
You still seem to think I need this explained to me. Duh, it's not dialogue. Duh, it's childish--largely audience-appropriate, to my observation and prejudice.
When I started out with the rightward dissent I was on your page, thinking, "Oh, these libertarians [at the time] have a point. I'll just dialogue about it with people, since that's what people do and how the world works, and we'll all come around to an improved view of things." Doesn't work that way, I'm afraid. You have to observe something more of people before you grant them admission to the courtroom of ideas--and you have to vet yourself even more heavily, since you should be asking, "Who am I to judge, and to what extent? How to I account for my malfunctions, in relation to myself and others?"
Eventually my emphasis on attack, defense, and justification diminished. It didn't disappear--I'm still interested in the best case or portrait or whatever. But I've been hemming and hawing and arguing and weighing and thinking for years, and through all of that the arrival at agreed-upon terms with people ends up being much less than it's cracked up to be. It happens rarely and briefly and yields little of use. So why be so anxious about it? I mostly just go after people I think are being mean. Hey, I was as surprised as anyone when I met some "racists" and found them to be far less mean and petty than even the average liberal arts student of my daily encounters.
And by the way I probably totally disagree with your ideas but I'll never know if you don't FUCKING ACTUALLY TALK ABOUT THEM.
Oh. Well, maybe we'll talk about them sometime.
Those particular books, by the way, were just an entry point to a paradigm. It got much, much worse after that.
159: Given the fact that humans have been making art and music for at least 35,000 years (i.e. making culture), the idea that any one tradition is superior to any other is patently absurd. Furthermore, no human has the objectivity to so much as select any criteria by which one could even begin to judge the quality of a culture as a whole.
Agreed, to a large extent. But this runs into problems.
First, these days (or any days) traditionalist, Occidental types aren't typically so chauvinist that they'll argue objective superiority. Heck, even the Nazis didn't say this unambiguously. They fully accept the idea of objectivity, as far as it goes, and the consequent relativity. I think it was Schumpeter who said the challenge was observing the relative quality of things while still spiritedly defending something. If you can't defend anything that isn't fully objective you aren't left with much, or anything, to defend. That's an obvious problem.
Typically the way out is supposed to be that we'll defend a setting or society based on openness and preference. I'm rather convinced that doesn't work. If all there is for people is preference, that's very shallow. There's no soul in it. Preferences fluctuate wildly, and it's impossible to see what truth, meaning, or deep purpose preference, or a regime that valorizes preference, is rooted to. This is jumping way ahead, but I might as well cut to the chase: people aren't free when they're free to do what they like. They're free when they're doing what their deepest soul calls them to do. Making a virtue of preferential freedom doesn't get us there. It would be easy to call, "confirmation bias," but to me the evidence is legion that people lose their minds in myriad chaotic ways when they're allowed to be free, free, free, on the current model.
You also have to notice the extent to which this sort of multiculturalism makes people into interchangeable automatons. This is where you can start to see the imperialistic aspect of liberalism emerging. Someone with a racial outlook might say, "Look--since culture and institutions basically reflect racial soul and purpose, if you try to mold one race in terms of another race's culture and institutions, you're essentially performing and aggressive, mistaken, imperialistic act. Even if you're just doing it by, say, installing McDonald's and universal suffrage, it just means it's a soft imperialism. You're attacking the soul more than the body, but it's still an attack. The fact that it's framed in terms of universality and fairness and opportunity doesn't change the basic dynamics of it."
I think the first problem that little diddy of mine raises is the issue of racial distinctiveness. Once you allude to racial soul and purpose, isn't it an issue that clear boundaries between races are hard to come by? Yeah, it is, to a degree. On the other hand, just because the line between the colors in a rainbow are hard to pinpoin doesn't mean there aren't different colors. Anyway.
Human cultural endeavor is sublime in its variety, expression, and most importantly, similarity. Quality of production and content may vary depending on its context (here is where one may make qualitative judgments, like 'this painting is better than that painting', or 'this movement is better than that movement'), but even the trashiest velvet painting is indicative of the stunning beauty and complexity of the human experience. In such an enormous and tangled web as humanity, you are in no position to pass judgment on entire cultures.
There's a lot there, but I get what you're saying. But again, suggesting that valid judgment extends no further than preference opens up other, deeper problems.
Yes, this is all breezy. Yes, it raises more questions than it answers. All I'm saying is that there are places you can go with the anti-multicultural dissent that aren't so stupid and binary and chauvinist as, "West is best!"
As critics go in these matters I like Paul Gottfried and Jim Kalb. For example, http://turnabout.ath.cx:8000/
161: Honest to God we are trying to understand. Please describe how we are "trained." What does "unreflective" mean in this context. And for heaven's sake, define "secretions."
Briefly: we're softly and relentlessly trained by an academic/media priesthood. My classroom education from kindergarten through college emphasized egalitarianism, as does the media, as do all sectors and institutions, to the extent they're considered respectable. I'm not implying any sort of creepy, centralized conspiracy--I think there's a "conspiratorial" element to humans basically, and that if you smash old taboos in the name of freedom and openness you're indulging in a lie. The only question is what the new taboos will be and how they'll be enforced and applied.
"Unreflective" just refers to the extent to which people decline to question or challenge the secular religion.
"Secretions" refers to the extent to which views aren't individually-derived through fair, methodical observation of truth, data, input, or whatever. People are molded to produce prefab response. Or, in my dyspeptic phrasing, secretions.
More...
No, I'm still both. I'm not threatened, but for the most part I'm unmoved by insistent calls to "Explain yourself! Justify your point of view!"
I'm saying you want to throw sass, be prepared to back that sass up with something other than rephrasing what people say in a sarcastic voice. That's not argument. That's not dialog. That's "I know you are but what am I?"and that shit is for children.
You still seem to think I need this explained to me. Duh, it's not dialogue. Duh, it's childish--largely audience-appropriate, to my observation and prejudice.
When I started out with the rightward dissent I was on your page, thinking, "Oh, these libertarians [at the time] have a point. I'll just dialogue about it with people, since that's what people do and how the world works, and we'll all come around to an improved view of things." Doesn't work that way, I'm afraid. You have to observe something more of people before you grant them admission to the courtroom of ideas--and you have to vet yourself even more heavily, since you should be asking, "Who am I to judge, and to what extent? How to I account for my malfunctions, in relation to myself and others?"
Eventually my emphasis on attack, defense, and justification diminished. It didn't disappear--I'm still interested in the best case or portrait or whatever. But I've been hemming and hawing and arguing and weighing and thinking for years, and through all of that the arrival at agreed-upon terms with people ends up being much less than it's cracked up to be. It happens rarely and briefly and yields little of use. So why be so anxious about it? I mostly just go after people I think are being mean. Hey, I was as surprised as anyone when I met some "racists" and found them to be far less mean and petty than even the average liberal arts student of my daily encounters.
And by the way I probably totally disagree with your ideas but I'll never know if you don't FUCKING ACTUALLY TALK ABOUT THEM.
Oh. Well, maybe we'll talk about them sometime.
Those particular books, by the way, were just an entry point to a paradigm. It got much, much worse after that.
159: Given the fact that humans have been making art and music for at least 35,000 years (i.e. making culture), the idea that any one tradition is superior to any other is patently absurd. Furthermore, no human has the objectivity to so much as select any criteria by which one could even begin to judge the quality of a culture as a whole.
Agreed, to a large extent. But this runs into problems.
First, these days (or any days) traditionalist, Occidental types aren't typically so chauvinist that they'll argue objective superiority. Heck, even the Nazis didn't say this unambiguously. They fully accept the idea of objectivity, as far as it goes, and the consequent relativity. I think it was Schumpeter who said the challenge was observing the relative quality of things while still spiritedly defending something. If you can't defend anything that isn't fully objective you aren't left with much, or anything, to defend. That's an obvious problem.
Typically the way out is supposed to be that we'll defend a setting or society based on openness and preference. I'm rather convinced that doesn't work. If all there is for people is preference, that's very shallow. There's no soul in it. Preferences fluctuate wildly, and it's impossible to see what truth, meaning, or deep purpose preference, or a regime that valorizes preference, is rooted to. This is jumping way ahead, but I might as well cut to the chase: people aren't free when they're free to do what they like. They're free when they're doing what their deepest soul calls them to do. Making a virtue of preferential freedom doesn't get us there. It would be easy to call, "confirmation bias," but to me the evidence is legion that people lose their minds in myriad chaotic ways when they're allowed to be free, free, free, on the current model.
You also have to notice the extent to which this sort of multiculturalism makes people into interchangeable automatons. This is where you can start to see the imperialistic aspect of liberalism emerging. Someone with a racial outlook might say, "Look--since culture and institutions basically reflect racial soul and purpose, if you try to mold one race in terms of another race's culture and institutions, you're essentially performing and aggressive, mistaken, imperialistic act. Even if you're just doing it by, say, installing McDonald's and universal suffrage, it just means it's a soft imperialism. You're attacking the soul more than the body, but it's still an attack. The fact that it's framed in terms of universality and fairness and opportunity doesn't change the basic dynamics of it."
I think the first problem that little diddy of mine raises is the issue of racial distinctiveness. Once you allude to racial soul and purpose, isn't it an issue that clear boundaries between races are hard to come by? Yeah, it is, to a degree. On the other hand, just because the line between the colors in a rainbow are hard to pinpoin doesn't mean there aren't different colors. Anyway.
Human cultural endeavor is sublime in its variety, expression, and most importantly, similarity. Quality of production and content may vary depending on its context (here is where one may make qualitative judgments, like 'this painting is better than that painting', or 'this movement is better than that movement'), but even the trashiest velvet painting is indicative of the stunning beauty and complexity of the human experience. In such an enormous and tangled web as humanity, you are in no position to pass judgment on entire cultures.
There's a lot there, but I get what you're saying. But again, suggesting that valid judgment extends no further than preference opens up other, deeper problems.
Yes, this is all breezy. Yes, it raises more questions than it answers. All I'm saying is that there are places you can go with the anti-multicultural dissent that aren't so stupid and binary and chauvinist as, "West is best!"
As critics go in these matters I like Paul Gottfried and Jim Kalb. For example, http://turnabout.ath.cx:8000/
161: Honest to God we are trying to understand. Please describe how we are "trained." What does "unreflective" mean in this context. And for heaven's sake, define "secretions."
Briefly: we're softly and relentlessly trained by an academic/media priesthood. My classroom education from kindergarten through college emphasized egalitarianism, as does the media, as do all sectors and institutions, to the extent they're considered respectable. I'm not implying any sort of creepy, centralized conspiracy--I think there's a "conspiratorial" element to humans basically, and that if you smash old taboos in the name of freedom and openness you're indulging in a lie. The only question is what the new taboos will be and how they'll be enforced and applied.
"Unreflective" just refers to the extent to which people decline to question or challenge the secular religion.
"Secretions" refers to the extent to which views aren't individually-derived through fair, methodical observation of truth, data, input, or whatever. People are molded to produce prefab response. Or, in my dyspeptic phrasing, secretions.
164
Edit: When I said, "They fully accept the idea of objectivity," I was referring to traditionalist types generally, not Nazis in particular.
165
Thank you for going Godwin. You simply don't know what you are talking about. The systems you reference, they simply do not work the way you say. The words coming out of your mouth, they do not mean what you think. I'm done, bye.
167
Translation: "I'm terrified by the possibility of my own freedom".
Which is a pretty hilarious thing for a "libertarian" to say.
Ah, if only people like you would have disappeared down a different rabbit hole, say, for instance, logical positivism. Your dilemma would be much simpler and your answers, or lack thereof, wouldn't trouble you so much that you would have to build these elaborate systems of whispering B.S. to prop them up.
B.S., because none of the words you're using mean what you think they mean. In fact none of them mean anything at all. Meaning is the one thing that your sandcastles utterly lack.
Myself, I don't believe in freedom; I think we're programmed by our genes. But it is incumbent that we behave AS IF we had freedom.
All this "racial soul and purpose" is baloney designed to cover up the total absence of soul or purpose in what you incorrectly believe is your own racial heritage or culture, and your total lack of understanding of what that culture is, or where it came from. This thing you call "white" isn't white at all; it's a construct, and a recent one. Yeah, sure, "Beethoven", but Beethoven isn't yours. Not even if you're German, which you aren't.
You think these multis are taking something away from you, but they, er, WE, are giving you so much more. White culture without constant infusions from somewhere else suffocates and dies. For every example of some sub-racial horror I can show you a thousand examples of white people doing even more mud-brained things. Your Volkstum is the Olde Country Buffet and "Matlock", dude. Your heart swells when you read your Nietzsche and listen to your Beethoven but what you really are, deep down inside, is Mantovani. All that great white stuff you're so proud of was done a long time ago by other people who weren't you.
Besides, it's simply not true that being interested in "white culture" means you have to be a racist. The roots and branches of white experience are everywhere, and they're fascinating. I've never heard a white nationalist who had the vaguest idea what they were. The white nationalist version of white culture is even blander and stupider than I could ever mock.
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Which is a pretty hilarious thing for a "libertarian" to say.
Ah, if only people like you would have disappeared down a different rabbit hole, say, for instance, logical positivism. Your dilemma would be much simpler and your answers, or lack thereof, wouldn't trouble you so much that you would have to build these elaborate systems of whispering B.S. to prop them up.
B.S., because none of the words you're using mean what you think they mean. In fact none of them mean anything at all. Meaning is the one thing that your sandcastles utterly lack.
Myself, I don't believe in freedom; I think we're programmed by our genes. But it is incumbent that we behave AS IF we had freedom.
All this "racial soul and purpose" is baloney designed to cover up the total absence of soul or purpose in what you incorrectly believe is your own racial heritage or culture, and your total lack of understanding of what that culture is, or where it came from. This thing you call "white" isn't white at all; it's a construct, and a recent one. Yeah, sure, "Beethoven", but Beethoven isn't yours. Not even if you're German, which you aren't.
You think these multis are taking something away from you, but they, er, WE, are giving you so much more. White culture without constant infusions from somewhere else suffocates and dies. For every example of some sub-racial horror I can show you a thousand examples of white people doing even more mud-brained things. Your Volkstum is the Olde Country Buffet and "Matlock", dude. Your heart swells when you read your Nietzsche and listen to your Beethoven but what you really are, deep down inside, is Mantovani. All that great white stuff you're so proud of was done a long time ago by other people who weren't you.
Besides, it's simply not true that being interested in "white culture" means you have to be a racist. The roots and branches of white experience are everywhere, and they're fascinating. I've never heard a white nationalist who had the vaguest idea what they were. The white nationalist version of white culture is even blander and stupider than I could ever mock.
168
@ African Tribal Chanting-
While I don't pretend to be a music historian, just an enthusiastic amateur, I have no objection to the rich variety of music given us by various cultures from Africa or anyplace else. . Native American traditional tribal music and African music and Budhist prayer music and the roving jongleurs of Europe, and Appalachian improvisations on the fiddle can all contribute to the latest and most innovative piece of music in the hands of a knowlegeable and talented musician.
I'm even aware of the value of going back to the root of a skill. Often the reason for why things are done boils down to 'because it's always been done that way.' In my industry the phrase is 'standard practices and procedure.' But innovation becomes possible sometimes when we ditch the preconceptions we learned in acquiring a skill, and think of the material and why it should be used in just that way, or why some combinations work and others don't. It's true of cooking and and wine making. It's true of artistic pursuits in paint or sculpture. It's true of wood-working or home-building. It's true of manufacturing automobiles or airplanes. From the most tactile and instinctive pursuits to the most abstract and mathematical, exploring the source can be a way of finding new ways forward.
What's also true is that without a sound grasp on the principles innovation is imposssible. Without knowing about why white pine planes one way and ebony another, creating interesting uses of the grain of the wood is not possible. (The Italian word for the highest skilled carpenter is 'ebonista', from ebony. Only this person would be trusted with an expensive and difficult material to work his creative wonders on, when the term became common. Friends in Italy called me this to a shopkeeper in a store specializing woodworking tools before I understood the term. His response was that Christ himself was a carpenter, a falegname. I haven't ever used the word ebonista to describe myself since being very properly chastened by that genteleman.) Without talent and an acquired skill in music improvisation works only by accident and unpredictably. With that talent and understanding, improvisation can be the basis for whole new forms and expressions in music or sculpture or designing the latest jet engine.
It's when going back to the root doesn't take things forward but mires them in the past that I lose interest, and this is my objection to hip hop.
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While I don't pretend to be a music historian, just an enthusiastic amateur, I have no objection to the rich variety of music given us by various cultures from Africa or anyplace else. . Native American traditional tribal music and African music and Budhist prayer music and the roving jongleurs of Europe, and Appalachian improvisations on the fiddle can all contribute to the latest and most innovative piece of music in the hands of a knowlegeable and talented musician.
I'm even aware of the value of going back to the root of a skill. Often the reason for why things are done boils down to 'because it's always been done that way.' In my industry the phrase is 'standard practices and procedure.' But innovation becomes possible sometimes when we ditch the preconceptions we learned in acquiring a skill, and think of the material and why it should be used in just that way, or why some combinations work and others don't. It's true of cooking and and wine making. It's true of artistic pursuits in paint or sculpture. It's true of wood-working or home-building. It's true of manufacturing automobiles or airplanes. From the most tactile and instinctive pursuits to the most abstract and mathematical, exploring the source can be a way of finding new ways forward.
What's also true is that without a sound grasp on the principles innovation is imposssible. Without knowing about why white pine planes one way and ebony another, creating interesting uses of the grain of the wood is not possible. (The Italian word for the highest skilled carpenter is 'ebonista', from ebony. Only this person would be trusted with an expensive and difficult material to work his creative wonders on, when the term became common. Friends in Italy called me this to a shopkeeper in a store specializing woodworking tools before I understood the term. His response was that Christ himself was a carpenter, a falegname. I haven't ever used the word ebonista to describe myself since being very properly chastened by that genteleman.) Without talent and an acquired skill in music improvisation works only by accident and unpredictably. With that talent and understanding, improvisation can be the basis for whole new forms and expressions in music or sculpture or designing the latest jet engine.
It's when going back to the root doesn't take things forward but mires them in the past that I lose interest, and this is my objection to hip hop.
170
Oh. Well, that was easy. None of the words I use mean what I think they mean. Perfect. And then some pronouncements, straw men, and wild inferences from fnarf, and voila! We're done. Fun times! I'm not a libertarian, though. Just thought that way once upon a time.
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