Slog
News & ArtsFriday, December 17, 2010
Crime The Video: The Shooting of John T. Williams
Posted by Dominic Holden on Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 4:20 PM
Posted at 2:11 p.m. and updated with better sound: The first version of the video we posted included a cacophony from talk radio (presumably playing inside the patrol car) in the left channel. We've removed the left audio channel in the video below so you can hear Officer Birk's mic much more clearly as he gives commands to Williams and recounts the events to officers afterward.
Here's the just-released, 17-minute video taken from the dashboard camera of Seattle Police Officer Ian Birk's patrol car before, during, and after he fatally shot John T. Williams:
Just after 1:00 minute, the video shows Williams shuffling across the street—carrying a board and minding his own business—in front of Birk's squad car. Birk jumps out and yells, "Hey, put the knife down." Then Birk follows Williams out of the frame. After two more commands (audible while the men are off screen) there are shots fired that killed Williams. A woman is also shown crossing the street who appears to witness the whole thing from maybe 20 feet away.
After 2:00, Officer Birk says, "Ma'am, he had a knife and he wouldn't drop it."
At 2:30, backup cars arrive.
At about 3:00, a voice (probably Birk's) says, "Yeah, I am okay. He had the knife open." (The investigation has since said that police found the knife closed.)
At 5:10, another officer can be heard telling Birk, "You did the right thing. Hang in there, Ian."
4
I'd like to see the video from the first and second police cars that arrived after Burke. Those cameras would probably show Burke's body language after the shooting.
6
In the span of 40 seconds someone goes from walking across the street, minding their own business, doing something his family has done for generations, to being shot to death by a Seattle cop.
Fuck. The. Police.
Never trust a cop.
Fuck. The. Police.
Never trust a cop.
7
1:53 - "Did you just shoot him?!"
2:03 - "He didn't do anything!"
to which he replies, "Ma'am he had a knife and wouldn't drop it."
She saw. She knew.
2:03 - "He didn't do anything!"
to which he replies, "Ma'am he had a knife and wouldn't drop it."
She saw. She knew.
8
The police had made a case in the media that Mr. Williams was an aggressive and threatening inebriate towards police on many occasions. I saw a guy crossing the street with his carving in that video. It just changed my whole perspective on the case. I'd love to hear what the woman who was crossing the street has to say.
10
@3:15: "who's the designated shooter? Who already shot him? So shoot him again if need be..."
Did I really hear that correctly? That's fucking gut-wrenching.
You know what? I think somebody puts a carving knife in the cop's hand and gives him five seconds of warning before somebody puts five rounds in him. If he can take down the guy with the gun, he'd be justified, right? Make him prove his point.
Instead, he'll probably just keep getting paid to not work until they put him on a desk job until enough people forget. I no longer have any respect for the SPD.
Did I really hear that correctly? That's fucking gut-wrenching.
You know what? I think somebody puts a carving knife in the cop's hand and gives him five seconds of warning before somebody puts five rounds in him. If he can take down the guy with the gun, he'd be justified, right? Make him prove his point.
Instead, he'll probably just keep getting paid to not work until they put him on a desk job until enough people forget. I no longer have any respect for the SPD.
12
Horrible. Mrs. 1:40 needs to step forward and give testimony. This was straight-up murder by police. Ian Birk should be in prison.
13
7 seconds pass from the first "Hey!"...notice the officer never stated he was with the police...to when the first shot is fired.
Disgraceful!! He should be tried for murder!
Disgraceful!! He should be tried for murder!
14
I can say this about many of the men and women in blue...they'd be better off dead than alive. Not all of them but huge portion of them.
When I see a police officer walking down the street I cross to the other side. They scare me more than gang members in this town.
When I see a police officer walking down the street I cross to the other side. They scare me more than gang members in this town.
15
I'll bet the Guild has this on endless loop at tonite's Happy Hour.
After all, so long as the Council and Mayor won't insist on civilian oversight, they can run scotfree through our streets doing whatever they want.
After all, so long as the Council and Mayor won't insist on civilian oversight, they can run scotfree through our streets doing whatever they want.
17
Many, many words can be applied to Officer Birk: judge, jury, executioner... liar, asshole....
But the most fitting one is: Murderer.
Murderer.
But the most fitting one is: Murderer.
Murderer.
18
(short edited version)
"BANG! BANG! BANG!"
"Surrender, we're the police!"
"Your dead corpse has the right to remain silent. In the event you stop being dead, the court will appoint someone who will not defend you, and I'll be let free again without bail."
"Do you understand these rights as I have read them to your dead and lifeless body?"
"BANG! BANG! BANG!"
"Surrender, we're the police!"
"Your dead corpse has the right to remain silent. In the event you stop being dead, the court will appoint someone who will not defend you, and I'll be let free again without bail."
"Do you understand these rights as I have read them to your dead and lifeless body?"
19
This is terrifying. No announcement that the man is a police officer, in seven seconds he goes from yelling at someone while their back is turned to firing five shots. Absolutely terrifying.
21
and why no audio until he is already out of his vehicle? wouldnt he have said something to "dispatch" as pulled the var ahead those last couple of feet and jumped out?
plain execution.
plain execution.
22
wow. the police should not put up with this. if they really want to be considered the good guys they need to prosecute this stuff. there should be no tolerance for this kind of harassment and murder. none.
23
12 seconds between getting out of the car and killing that man.
7 seconds between yelling at the man and killing the man.
4 seconds between telling the man to put the knife down and killing the man.
7 seconds between yelling at the man and killing the man.
4 seconds between telling the man to put the knife down and killing the man.
24
Listen to him repeat 'Ordered multiple times to drop it.' He keeps repeating it, over and over.
You can hear it in his voice -- desperately trying to justify it to himself. Desperately trying to excuse what he just did.
Fucking MURDERER.
You can hear it in his voice -- desperately trying to justify it to himself. Desperately trying to excuse what he just did.
Fucking MURDERER.
25
Absolutely fucking disgusting. The only positive thing I can say about this video is that it's existence might get him convicted of murder.
If he doesn't rot in prison, may he be torn limb from limb by an angry mob.
If he doesn't rot in prison, may he be torn limb from limb by an angry mob.
26
he looks so threatening, you know, to the general public as he shuffles across the street in his socks (?????)
this makes me very sad. and very angry
this makes me very sad. and very angry
27
@10, This sound bite sounds horrible in light of the circumstances we now know, but for the officers arriving on scene, simply knowing that shots were fired on a supposedly hostile subject brandishing a knife--and assuming the suspect was still alive and still possibly aggressive--it sounds more like routine safety measures, i.e. one officer covering other officers who are approaching a suspect with a weapon (which is standard procedure and how Officer Birk should've handled the situation--by calling for backup before approaching the suspect). Here's the whole dialogue:
"Hold on guys, let's get over here, let's get in single file, we’ll walk together, alright? Who’s the designated shooter? We’ve already shot him, so [but?] shoot him again if need be."
"I got it."
"Let’s move up."
"I got it, I got the suspect."
"We’re going to move up, alright?"
"Go."
"Moving."
"Ready, get the cuffs out. Grab him, grab his hands, roll him over..."
Still horrible to listen to, though.
"Hold on guys, let's get over here, let's get in single file, we’ll walk together, alright? Who’s the designated shooter? We’ve already shot him, so [but?] shoot him again if need be."
"I got it."
"Let’s move up."
"I got it, I got the suspect."
"We’re going to move up, alright?"
"Go."
"Moving."
"Ready, get the cuffs out. Grab him, grab his hands, roll him over..."
Still horrible to listen to, though.
28
I can't get over the short amount of time elapsed inbetween getting out the squad car & gunshots......whoa
30
Absolutely chilling. A gruesome act of murder. They must try Officer Ian Birk for murder. I can't remember--had Mr. Williams and Birk met previously? If so, this seems like some kind of atrocious score-settling. If not, this looks like antisocial personality disorder. SPD, please start holding your officers accountable.
And this is written by someone with friends on the force!
And this is written by someone with friends on the force!
31
Murder? Oh ladies, grow up. The most he's guilty if is not following proper procedures. Fire him.
And sorry nervous white middle class Sloggers, unless you're shit faced, carrying a knife and refusing to follow legal orders of an officer, you'll be fine, no need to pee yourselves when the SPD comes to help you one day.
And sorry nervous white middle class Sloggers, unless you're shit faced, carrying a knife and refusing to follow legal orders of an officer, you'll be fine, no need to pee yourselves when the SPD comes to help you one day.
32
If he isn't charged are you all going to demand McGinn resign or dies the buck not stop with you guy?
33
@31
fuck you, your mother, and your dog, you physcholigically fractured bastard. argue your crazy ape-man idiocy to the wall.
fuck you, your mother, and your dog, you physcholigically fractured bastard. argue your crazy ape-man idiocy to the wall.
34
Cops really shouldn't be listening to anything in the squad car radio for the simple reason that it interferes with important dialog that is being recorded.....its akin to having a mouse running around on your dashboard impeding the camera.....essentially defeating the purpose. I really think this should be a law....or perhaps the engineers/mechanics who wire up the car can have the AM/FM radio muted when the police car lights are turned on.
35
@32 no, it's Council that refuses to require civilian accountability for the SPD in the negotiations - they're the legislative body, remember?
36
@34, the right channel has very little of the radio on it. If anyone wants to copy the right channel over to the left before I do, It'd be appreciated. Either way, this could be cleaned up a lot.
Though, even with the audio cleaned up, I don't think it's going to make the crime here any more obvious. It's already obvious enough. Though I might like to hear what else this sniveling piece of shit happened to say afterward. It'd be a case study in self deception.
Though, even with the audio cleaned up, I don't think it's going to make the crime here any more obvious. It's already obvious enough. Though I might like to hear what else this sniveling piece of shit happened to say afterward. It'd be a case study in self deception.
37
Why is there no discussion about getting these shit-stained drunken Indians off our streets? They need to be in jail or back on the "rez". Give them a choice.
39
Ian Birk really strutted as he got out of the car and walked toward Williams. That sort of surprised me when I watched this.
40
@36 - We've isolated the right channel and will have a new video with only the right-channel audio posted asap.
42
@36
oh interesting, I wonder if the right channel microphone is mounted outside the vehicle and the left channel mic is inside?
oh interesting, I wonder if the right channel microphone is mounted outside the vehicle and the left channel mic is inside?
44
@38 The CHZA wrote, "Let's demonize the entire profession. Logical-ass motherfuckers up in here."
Someone please direct me to a single instance of a police officer denouncing the actions of this ogre.
Someone please direct me to a single instance of a police officer denouncing the actions of this ogre.
45
The whole incident is incredible. But what's most striking is that from contact to killing was less than the time it takes for a lady to cross a street.
This cop should be prosecuted for murder. He had the intent. He did the act. If a jury buys the argument it was self defense, so be it, but he should be prosecuted. He should receive no immunity as he failed to follow proper procedures.
Working in Pioneer Square, I walk by drunken homeless people everyday and I have yet felt a need to run away from them, let alone shoot them. This cop made a tragic mistake, now he must be responsible for his actions. Very simple. I'd convict him.
This cop should be prosecuted for murder. He had the intent. He did the act. If a jury buys the argument it was self defense, so be it, but he should be prosecuted. He should receive no immunity as he failed to follow proper procedures.
Working in Pioneer Square, I walk by drunken homeless people everyday and I have yet felt a need to run away from them, let alone shoot them. This cop made a tragic mistake, now he must be responsible for his actions. Very simple. I'd convict him.
47
The most upsetting aspect of this altercation is that all of it could have been resolved with words.
49
Also, notice Birk already had his gun out by the time he's on frame, and waits until himself and Williams are completely out of the camera's sight. He did not appear frightened, if anything he seemed relaxed and purposeful. Maybe even a little excited.
At first I was willing to write this off as simple incompetence (for which he should be tried, of course), but after seeing this there's absolutely no way to continue believing that.
As for the woman potentially testifying, where is she? If somebody watching recognizes her, can they vouch for her safety? Who handles witness protection when the murderer is a cop?
At first I was willing to write this off as simple incompetence (for which he should be tried, of course), but after seeing this there's absolutely no way to continue believing that.
As for the woman potentially testifying, where is she? If somebody watching recognizes her, can they vouch for her safety? Who handles witness protection when the murderer is a cop?
51
I wonder if Mike "The Gasman" Gastineau will have to testify in court?
Seriously though, this cop needs to go away for a long, long time. There was no justification for this shooting what so ever. What a sad story.
Seriously though, this cop needs to go away for a long, long time. There was no justification for this shooting what so ever. What a sad story.
52
@31 - Wish you were even partially correct. Unfortunately, we keep seeing evidence to contrary. In this case, the man was carrying a closed knife and was sober. Shot dead. In the "Mexican Piss" incident, an innocent unarmed man was walking down the street. In the recent Kid getting beat up in a mini-mart incident, again, kid, unarmed, buying a candy bar.
Oh, that's right, they weren't white. Wonder if that had anything to do with these people being beat up and shot.
I know many great cops. I rely on them often. I also know, and they know, that there is a problem inside of the SPD. And the public has lost faith in them because it's not being addressed by our electeds on City Council. Not good for the cops, not good for the City.
City Council - we need YOU to do something. Not just allowing someone else to investigate. Action. More SPD oversight with teeth. NOW. Do more people need to die before you act? Seriously, this is fucked up.
Oh, that's right, they weren't white. Wonder if that had anything to do with these people being beat up and shot.
I know many great cops. I rely on them often. I also know, and they know, that there is a problem inside of the SPD. And the public has lost faith in them because it's not being addressed by our electeds on City Council. Not good for the cops, not good for the City.
City Council - we need YOU to do something. Not just allowing someone else to investigate. Action. More SPD oversight with teeth. NOW. Do more people need to die before you act? Seriously, this is fucked up.
54
"seemed relaxed and purposeful. Maybe even a little excited"
Actually, I think he looks somewhat perturbed, maybe even flummoxed with a hint of delusionment.
Actually, I think he looks somewhat perturbed, maybe even flummoxed with a hint of delusionment.
55
@52, Meinert wrote, "I know many great cops. I rely on them often."
They're out publicly denouncing Birk's actions, right?
They're out publicly denouncing Birk's actions, right?
57
The mexican's hombre I'd being charged with robbery with a machete and the bottle if Corona in this case was present at the robbery but not charged. Read the report.
58
@56 you got that right.
One rule for whites.
One gun for everyone else.
Got Justice?
Not in Seattle.
One rule for whites.
One gun for everyone else.
Got Justice?
Not in Seattle.
59
Why dont cops talk? Because everyday they risk their lives to protect your ass and have the right to use deadly force to do that.
Even if a cop has his doubts, why give you unreasonable cop hating assholes ammunition?
Even if a cop has his doubts, why give you unreasonable cop hating assholes ammunition?
61
@59: Police don't risk their lives every day, and most of what they do is not protection. Roofers risk their lives every day.
62
@59 - Because they're meant to protect US, not other members of their little gang. They have the right to use force to do that because we fucking gave it to them. We have a right to take it back if they abuse it, as SPD have increasingly been doing. It's not us vs. them, they're our employees and they're meant to enforce the rules that we set. This includes upon themselves. If they fail to do that we have a right an obligation to fire them.
63
Some observations:
As people noticed, the left channel is the in-car mic and the right channel is the officer-worn mic.
At about 6:50 into the video, an officer instructs Birk to remove his officer-worn microphone and put it in his car, which he does. Since Birk's statements and actions in the minutes following the incident were direct evidence as to his conduct and state of mind, it puzzles me that SPD deliberately disabled the system that was collecting that evidence.
(It's also worth mentioning that section 17.260 of the SPD Manual says, "The DICVS (--that's Digital In-Car Video System --) will not be deactivated during citizen contacts.")
As people noticed, the left channel is the in-car mic and the right channel is the officer-worn mic.
At about 6:50 into the video, an officer instructs Birk to remove his officer-worn microphone and put it in his car, which he does. Since Birk's statements and actions in the minutes following the incident were direct evidence as to his conduct and state of mind, it puzzles me that SPD deliberately disabled the system that was collecting that evidence.
(It's also worth mentioning that section 17.260 of the SPD Manual says, "The DICVS (--that's Digital In-Car Video System --) will not be deactivated during citizen contacts.")
66
@44: Police officers generally are not allowed to speak on the record concerning issues that are currently under investigation, unless given permission from higher-ups to do so. It's the same with soldiers.
67
@66: Good point. Somebody please direct me to a single instance of a police officer denouncing the actions of similar ogres after the investigation into their heinous behavior has concluded.
Also, does anyone know if Birk is still on paid vacation?
Also, does anyone know if Birk is still on paid vacation?
68
@63, but of course once Williams was dead it was no longer a citizen contact. Convenient, that.
I'm at work so I haven't heard the audio, but I watched the video's first three minutes until the other cops arrive. That's enough to make the cop look like a murderer. The rest is just sickening corroboration.
I'm at work so I haven't heard the audio, but I watched the video's first three minutes until the other cops arrive. That's enough to make the cop look like a murderer. The rest is just sickening corroboration.
69
Fuck the PO-lice comin' straight from the middle-class / young brah got it bad cause I smoke grass
70
What a video. I'm FLOORED. I am very pro-cop, and there's little defense for this one's actions here. The timeline does not support Birk's report. Period. Anyone who saw this happen has a moral obligation to speak up. If you're in the video, all the more because you have proof that you were there.
75
wow as a former police officer i have to say that was completely fucked up. i'm sure if this wasn't witnessed the way it was they woulda put a throw away in his hand. common practice in new york thats how i know. this is fucked up. yes i would prosecute this cop , no questions asked.
76
apparently the SPD, like the military, has lowered their standards for the force. you'd think they'd want smarter cops out there, not giving the rest of the force a bad name.
given the complete lack of oversight of SPD in the last few years, i will be horrified, but not surprised if this fucktard who should be the one gunned down, gets off. seriously fucking sick of the douchenozzles who are paid to protect the citizens of this city.
given the complete lack of oversight of SPD in the last few years, i will be horrified, but not surprised if this fucktard who should be the one gunned down, gets off. seriously fucking sick of the douchenozzles who are paid to protect the citizens of this city.
77
@31 "Murder? Oh ladies, grow up. The most he's guilty if is not following proper procedures. Fire him."
The rules of my job also restrict me from shooting customers to death, and if I break those rules I'll face murder charges. Why should cops be held to different standard?
The rules of my job also restrict me from shooting customers to death, and if I break those rules I'll face murder charges. Why should cops be held to different standard?
78
WHERE'S DIAZ?
It all comes from Chief Diaz. He's the patrol officer's boy. They know he will always support them; that's how he got to be chief. If you know you can get away with murder, you'll sink to murder.
It's been almost four months; why are we not hearing the sounds of balls being busted over there? Because Diaz works for the officers, not the other way around.
It's not about Birk. Birk screwed up. It happens. He misread the situation and made a deadly error. The problem is the attitude that Birk carried with him into that situation, which every officer carries with him, and about the cover they know they have from any repercussions. That's not Birk's fault, it's Diaz's.
It all comes from Chief Diaz. He's the patrol officer's boy. They know he will always support them; that's how he got to be chief. If you know you can get away with murder, you'll sink to murder.
It's been almost four months; why are we not hearing the sounds of balls being busted over there? Because Diaz works for the officers, not the other way around.
It's not about Birk. Birk screwed up. It happens. He misread the situation and made a deadly error. The problem is the attitude that Birk carried with him into that situation, which every officer carries with him, and about the cover they know they have from any repercussions. That's not Birk's fault, it's Diaz's.
79
@78 Diaz and Burgess are SPD. There is no oversight. Until the Council and Mayor buck up and refuse a new labor deal come 12/31. But still--neither the Stranger or Publicola have covered the state of labor negotiations between the SPD in light of this bloody year. If it was covered in the Times or PI, I missed it there as well.
Why is no one reporting on that? Is it a topic people are unwilling to cover? I don't get it.
Why is no one reporting on that? Is it a topic people are unwilling to cover? I don't get it.
80
@79, it's a hard topic to cover because it's closed-door. Labor negotiations are not open to the public or the press. That's not going to change.
81
@80 some papers in this town are willing to write a post calling on people to contact the Council and Mayor with clickable email links calling for us to make sure the right park ends up in a community space.
I'm saddened they haven't done likewise to ensure that the Mayor and Council don't let the SPD off the hook without getting a new labor deal which includes sharp teeth for OPA in light of this bloody and violent year. It would probably burn bridges to kingdom come between said paper and some police, but... its the right thing to do. I've called the Mayor's office and contacted people on the council about this. Everyone needs to.
Or if the city leadership won't man up, maybe a city level initiative that would prohibit the city from accepting a labor deal in 2012 and going forward that didn't include certain concessions. No strong OPA=no labor deal.
I'm saddened they haven't done likewise to ensure that the Mayor and Council don't let the SPD off the hook without getting a new labor deal which includes sharp teeth for OPA in light of this bloody and violent year. It would probably burn bridges to kingdom come between said paper and some police, but... its the right thing to do. I've called the Mayor's office and contacted people on the council about this. Everyone needs to.
Or if the city leadership won't man up, maybe a city level initiative that would prohibit the city from accepting a labor deal in 2012 and going forward that didn't include certain concessions. No strong OPA=no labor deal.
82
Yeah, what @79 said --
Why SPD's sweetheart deal with Stafford Frey? Why OPA's procedural handicaps? Why no legal indemnity for the OPA's civilian review board? Why no legal power whatsoever for the OPA's civilian auditor?
Same answer to all four questions: SPOG. Somebody oughta write a story on 'em. Nudge, cough, Dominic.
Why SPD's sweetheart deal with Stafford Frey? Why OPA's procedural handicaps? Why no legal indemnity for the OPA's civilian review board? Why no legal power whatsoever for the OPA's civilian auditor?
Same answer to all four questions: SPOG. Somebody oughta write a story on 'em. Nudge, cough, Dominic.
83
@82 OPA with final disciplinary authority, let them appeal to the full Council. The 99.999% of SPD that are good cops would have nothing to every worry about. If it rousts out 1-5 crap cops, then good riddance.
It's absurd that the Chief of Police can procedurally veto any decision of OPA. Did you all know that? Diaz has a blank check. That has to end forever, it's a ridiculous benefit.
OPA membership= no police oversight in the process.
The Stafford Frey thing is done now, isn't it? The SPOG should be free to hire whomever they would like for their personal defense. The City, as their employers, can hire whomever we deem.
It's absurd that the Chief of Police can procedurally veto any decision of OPA. Did you all know that? Diaz has a blank check. That has to end forever, it's a ridiculous benefit.
OPA membership= no police oversight in the process.
The Stafford Frey thing is done now, isn't it? The SPOG should be free to hire whomever they would like for their personal defense. The City, as their employers, can hire whomever we deem.
84
@83, on that note,
Did you know the OPA auditor is not allowed to know the identities of the officers being investigated, and thus may not review videos showing the officers?
Did you know the OPA auditor is not allowed to know the identities of the officers being investigated, and thus may not review videos showing the officers?
85
@84 really? I didn't know that. This SPOG contract sounds like a joke designed to hurt Seattle residents.
86
I like how that womans reaction to the shooting was the similar to the way I react to the clipboard cause people on broadway. Annoyed/stunned/confused.
87
@84, wait, what the fuck? That has to be in error. We were specifically told (I think here on Stranger on the Times) that OPA was investigating the Birk. I know for a fact that OPA is investigating the medical marijuana home invasion because I was in a mail thread with someone at City Hall about that--after I complained about it--and who looped in both John Diaz and the head of OPA, who out of the blue told that OPA was looking into that home invasion based on the referral. I apparently got there first thanks to the Council staffer CCing me and everyone else. The names of the involved officers there have been all over the news as well when it happened, thanks to Dom. So is this true?
88
Well, I know that if I was mayor, the chief would be in my office right now, and I'd be telling him, look, I don't give a shit about OPA or anyone else or what they think; _I'M_ telling you that this is unacceptable to _ME_ and I want to hear how you're going to get the force under control, and I want to hear it very soon. I don't want to hear about promises and investigations and action plans and bullet points; I want to hear that this shit is stopped, and that every single one of your officers understands that, or I'm going to be hearing you packing up your desk.
Unfortunately, there's no way the mayor can win a showdown like that. He picked the wrong man. He simply doesn't have the power to control his own force. The SPOG is going to tell him, "it's OK, man, we've got it, it'll never happen again" and then it will happen again.
Unfortunately, there's no way the mayor can win a showdown like that. He picked the wrong man. He simply doesn't have the power to control his own force. The SPOG is going to tell him, "it's OK, man, we've got it, it'll never happen again" and then it will happen again.
89
00:59
Williams is crossing the street, and it appears the knife is open and is scraping something.
Repeat, he has an open knife.
Cop sees man, walking in a less than alert manner (looking down while crossing, holding open knife).
So, when he leaves car, in his mind, is a disheveled man with an open knife. At what point the knife gets closed I don't know...but maybe it was done while Williams back was turned, therefore, the cop assumes its still open as Williams comes toward him.
Interpretation:
1. Man with open knife, seen as threat
2. Cop pursues
3. Man turns and rushes toward cop
4. Cop asks man to halt.
5. He does not.
6 Cop stops him.
Williams is crossing the street, and it appears the knife is open and is scraping something.
Repeat, he has an open knife.
Cop sees man, walking in a less than alert manner (looking down while crossing, holding open knife).
So, when he leaves car, in his mind, is a disheveled man with an open knife. At what point the knife gets closed I don't know...but maybe it was done while Williams back was turned, therefore, the cop assumes its still open as Williams comes toward him.
Interpretation:
1. Man with open knife, seen as threat
2. Cop pursues
3. Man turns and rushes toward cop
4. Cop asks man to halt.
5. He does not.
6 Cop stops him.
91
@87: Joe: I want to know, too. Dom?
@88: Fnarf: Right on. SPOG puts us all in danger. So what can we do?
@89: Doubtful. When Birk was babbling his excuses to his buddies after he killed Williams, surely he would have accused Williams of charging him if Williams had made even the slightest indication of doing so. And if I remember correctly, he shot Williams in the side. Williams didn't seem agile enough to have galloped at Birk.
@88: Fnarf: Right on. SPOG puts us all in danger. So what can we do?
@89: Doubtful. When Birk was babbling his excuses to his buddies after he killed Williams, surely he would have accused Williams of charging him if Williams had made even the slightest indication of doing so. And if I remember correctly, he shot Williams in the side. Williams didn't seem agile enough to have galloped at Birk.
92
Your premise is flawed, as is your logic. Man with open knife CARVING, should not be seen as a threat any more than a baker with knife cutting bread should be.
93
@87, @91,
I should clarify: it's the OPA auditor (and the review board as well, actually) that is not allowed to know the identities of the officers involved. The OPA investigators are not bound by the same restriction. The demarcation is pretty clear: the investigators, being officers themselves, get all the information. The OPA review board & auditor, being civilians, are kept in the dark as to officer identities.
I should clarify: it's the OPA auditor (and the review board as well, actually) that is not allowed to know the identities of the officers involved. The OPA investigators are not bound by the same restriction. The demarcation is pretty clear: the investigators, being officers themselves, get all the information. The OPA review board & auditor, being civilians, are kept in the dark as to officer identities.
94
Photos of him should be posted around town with the word "murderer" under it. Everyone in Seattle should know who this asshole is!
95
I made a mistake which I need to correct. Per SMC 3.28.855, the OPA civilian auditor "may audit any and all OPA records."
I could have sworn I saw a rule which stated otherwise somewhere, but for the moment it appears to me that it's only the OPA's civilian review board that is not allowed to know the identities of officers being investigated.
I could have sworn I saw a rule which stated otherwise somewhere, but for the moment it appears to me that it's only the OPA's civilian review board that is not allowed to know the identities of officers being investigated.
97
Aaaaaaand, I'm back for a second helping of crow.
I just learned that the former practice of withholding the identities of officers from the review board was abolished about a year ago:
Ruling expands review board's access to …
I just learned that the former practice of withholding the identities of officers from the review board was abolished about a year ago:
Ruling expands review board's access to …
98
My grandmother used to tell me that they used to hunt indians down back home in indian country and lynch them, burn them or just shoot them in the street, even in the 20s and 30s. Her hallmark of a good police force is one that doesn't do that, one that can rise above this primal need to shoot the gawky injun.
This is a very bad police force indeed. His co-workers may not have done what he's done, but they've remained silent. They've covered for him. They've protected him. They've taken him at his word.
This whole thing has sickened me, it's depressed me, it's bothered me. I thought, growing up Comanche in a very culturally robust household, I thought I'd never have to sit here and think about the possibility of, say, what if this was one of my relatives? The Comanche broke off soon after returning from thire last trip down the Snake River and down the Columbia and up to the Puget Sound with the Shoshone, and so certainly this man was a relative, he was a long-distant brother and he was shot like a dog in the street.
This is the most fucked up thing I've had to watch unfold in years.
This is a very bad police force indeed. His co-workers may not have done what he's done, but they've remained silent. They've covered for him. They've protected him. They've taken him at his word.
This whole thing has sickened me, it's depressed me, it's bothered me. I thought, growing up Comanche in a very culturally robust household, I thought I'd never have to sit here and think about the possibility of, say, what if this was one of my relatives? The Comanche broke off soon after returning from thire last trip down the Snake River and down the Columbia and up to the Puget Sound with the Shoshone, and so certainly this man was a relative, he was a long-distant brother and he was shot like a dog in the street.
This is the most fucked up thing I've had to watch unfold in years.
99
I could have sworn I grew up in a country where a man was innocent until proven guilty. Where did all of you grow up?
On January 20th an inquest into the death of Mr. Williams will convene. At that inquest Officer Birk will face the video, any witnesses to the shooting or physical evidence around it, and whatever other testimony is relevant. If evidence of a crime supports it he likely will be charged with whatever crime the county prosecutor thinks appropriate.
Releasing this video prior to that hearing is the worst kind of grandstanding. As much as Mr. Williams had the right to walk the streets, disheveled or not, Officer Birk has a right to an unbiased hearing.
All of the bigotry and hatred of the police would be amusing if it weren't so disgusting. Officers are not heroes, just because they are in law enforcement. They are men and women doing a difficult job for decent but not spectacular pay. They see things you and I don't want to or, because of them, have to see. And they are entitled to due process as surely as you and I are.
On January 20th an inquest into the death of Mr. Williams will convene. At that inquest Officer Birk will face the video, any witnesses to the shooting or physical evidence around it, and whatever other testimony is relevant. If evidence of a crime supports it he likely will be charged with whatever crime the county prosecutor thinks appropriate.
Releasing this video prior to that hearing is the worst kind of grandstanding. As much as Mr. Williams had the right to walk the streets, disheveled or not, Officer Birk has a right to an unbiased hearing.
All of the bigotry and hatred of the police would be amusing if it weren't so disgusting. Officers are not heroes, just because they are in law enforcement. They are men and women doing a difficult job for decent but not spectacular pay. They see things you and I don't want to or, because of them, have to see. And they are entitled to due process as surely as you and I are.
101
@99: Then allow me to speak some truth to you, since you seem to be shaken by the right of Americans to speak their mind and opinion on matters independently of court proceedings: fuck you.
As to Officer Birk: May the earth bless him with a life long enough to see the error of his ways, may his body curse him with the memory of that violent hand, may the courts join this curse and this blessing forevermore that he may be humbled into seeking forgiveness.
As to Officer Birk: May the earth bless him with a life long enough to see the error of his ways, may his body curse him with the memory of that violent hand, may the courts join this curse and this blessing forevermore that he may be humbled into seeking forgiveness.
102
Shaken? Nah. Disgusted by the bigotry and immaturity of the comments, but neither shaken nor surprised. After all, all of you are perfectly willing to pass judgement on not just this officer but his entire department based on this one video. Fairly childish and silly, but there you have it.
Truth is something of which you clearly have no knowledge. (For your edification, 'fuck you' is not 'some truth,' at least not in the context you used. It is a command from an intellectually and emotionally retarded person with nothing more cogent to say or any authority to put his commands in action.)
'Some truth' will come out in the inquest and other investigatory proceedings. Until then people like you are just venting your hatred of of the basic rules by which we all live. I don't know what happened on Aug 30th. Nor do you. What you know is the evidence of a snippet of video which in fact 'shows' only audio.
The rule of law works. It is what makes civilization possible. For instance, in this case this shooting has been ruled unjustified and Officer Birk has been asked to surrender gun and badge pending the outcome of the inquest. Without the rule of law we would all be like you, so many chimpanzees throwing their own scat at each other.
Truth is something of which you clearly have no knowledge. (For your edification, 'fuck you' is not 'some truth,' at least not in the context you used. It is a command from an intellectually and emotionally retarded person with nothing more cogent to say or any authority to put his commands in action.)
'Some truth' will come out in the inquest and other investigatory proceedings. Until then people like you are just venting your hatred of of the basic rules by which we all live. I don't know what happened on Aug 30th. Nor do you. What you know is the evidence of a snippet of video which in fact 'shows' only audio.
The rule of law works. It is what makes civilization possible. For instance, in this case this shooting has been ruled unjustified and Officer Birk has been asked to surrender gun and badge pending the outcome of the inquest. Without the rule of law we would all be like you, so many chimpanzees throwing their own scat at each other.
103
@102: Truth, my friend, is that someone died and people are upset. I don't know how to make it any clearer to you, but there you have it. You can prattle on and on using your ill-fitting Victorian condescension for as long as you want, but in the end you aren't going to be seen as a defender of the rule of law or the cops, you'll be seen as the jackass who spit on a casket.
104
Or should I say, "I take umbrage at your equivocation, @102, it's pure and unmitigated piffle and balderdash. You assume the mantle of law and order but obfuscate the simple order at hand of one man's death and a questionable handling by the constabulary hence. It would behoove you to comport yourself in a more respectful manner unto those expressing dolor and dismay at the dispatching of a man that has heretofore been treated as a criminal by the officers of law when we've found ample cause to question the need for his removal from the mortal coil. I ask that you cease and desist your trite and feigned erudition and allow those with an ounce of respect for the dead to carry ourselves as one would do in such a case."
105
@104: Seattleblues is a troll, don't feed him. Trust me, if this were a video of an Indian shooting a cop, the last thing he'd be doing is urging everyone to remain calm and saying that a person is innocent until proven guilty.
Anyone who is not disturbed by this video is not human. Remember that Williams was also hearing impaired. And since when it is it illegal to walk down the street whittling a piece of wood with a Swiss army knife? Isn't the first badge we give to Cub Scouts their whittling chip? What, it's illegal to do that in public?
Seattleblues and Supreme Ruler, are you sure you want the government to have the authority to stop you if you're whittling on the sidewalk? Are you familiar with the Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution? Is that really the kind of country you want to live in? Or is it that you want cops to have the authority to detain "other" people who are whittling on the sidewalk?
Anyone who is not disturbed by this video is not human. Remember that Williams was also hearing impaired. And since when it is it illegal to walk down the street whittling a piece of wood with a Swiss army knife? Isn't the first badge we give to Cub Scouts their whittling chip? What, it's illegal to do that in public?
Seattleblues and Supreme Ruler, are you sure you want the government to have the authority to stop you if you're whittling on the sidewalk? Are you familiar with the Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution? Is that really the kind of country you want to live in? Or is it that you want cops to have the authority to detain "other" people who are whittling on the sidewalk?
106
you who criticize all police based on the actions of a few are no better than republican hacks who think all muslims are terrorists because of the actions of a few.
double standard much?
double standard much?
108
use your eyes and ears. look at the video again with just your eyes and ears. from the 1:00 to 2:00 minute mark.
who is aggressive. who is passive.
who is shot, in the back, not the front, in less than 4 seconds.
who is aggressive. who is passive.
who is shot, in the back, not the front, in less than 4 seconds.
109
also, out of curiosity, I just measured my big toe, on my right foot. it's 2.5 inches long.
was Williams really on his way to commit a murderous rampage in downtown Seattle with a blade a 1/2 inch bigger than my toe?
was Williams really on his way to commit a murderous rampage in downtown Seattle with a blade a 1/2 inch bigger than my toe?
110
Is it illegal to own a carving knife now? Is it illegal to have a knife out in public and carving on a piece of wood? or is it just illegal to be a black man in public still?
112
@89:
To whom was the knife a threat?
To this point in all the discussions, there does not seem to be any evidence whatsoever that Williams actually threatened anyone with the knife, was doing anything dangerous with the knife, or said anything to anyone that would indicate he intended to do anything with the knife at all.
There were in the video a number of pedestrians and a large number of vehicles, and nobody anywhere seemed threatened by a man carving a board while crossing the street in a crosswalk.
He wasn't yelling anything, he wasn't brandishing the knife at any pedestrians or vehicles, and he wasn't waving the knife around in the air.
The closest I can really come to justifying the shooting is that the officer knew he had a knife, and in theory Williams was close enough to turn around and lunge at the officer with a knife. Except that there was no evidence at all that Williams did that or intended to do that, nor is there any history of Williams doing that or threatening to do that to any officer or anyone in the past that would have been pertinent to the officer's appraisal of danger.
If the officer had stayed in his car and turned the corner and drove in front of Williams it would have been different.
If the officer hadn't walked behind him and come up close to him, you couldn't even invent the "well he was so close he might possible have done something maybe" excuse.
Here is the Seattle Police Department handling someone who was wielding a SWORD and clearly threatening people with it. They would have been very justified in shooting this man, yet they didn't:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ayd0fbtE_…
More...
To whom was the knife a threat?
To this point in all the discussions, there does not seem to be any evidence whatsoever that Williams actually threatened anyone with the knife, was doing anything dangerous with the knife, or said anything to anyone that would indicate he intended to do anything with the knife at all.
There were in the video a number of pedestrians and a large number of vehicles, and nobody anywhere seemed threatened by a man carving a board while crossing the street in a crosswalk.
He wasn't yelling anything, he wasn't brandishing the knife at any pedestrians or vehicles, and he wasn't waving the knife around in the air.
The closest I can really come to justifying the shooting is that the officer knew he had a knife, and in theory Williams was close enough to turn around and lunge at the officer with a knife. Except that there was no evidence at all that Williams did that or intended to do that, nor is there any history of Williams doing that or threatening to do that to any officer or anyone in the past that would have been pertinent to the officer's appraisal of danger.
If the officer had stayed in his car and turned the corner and drove in front of Williams it would have been different.
If the officer hadn't walked behind him and come up close to him, you couldn't even invent the "well he was so close he might possible have done something maybe" excuse.
Here is the Seattle Police Department handling someone who was wielding a SWORD and clearly threatening people with it. They would have been very justified in shooting this man, yet they didn't:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ayd0fbtE_…
113
Interesting that this video was released on a Friday afternoon the weekend before Christmas.
Someone wants it to go by unnoticed.
Someone wants it to go by unnoticed.
114
Un-fing-believable. When an uprising comes, the people that protect the worst traitors to the public ( bad cops) should be the first ones sent packing. One thing I have seen mentioned on here is that bevause our social system lets people like Williams slip through the cracks, he was deprived of the bssic human respect he would have gotten had he been mentalky stable and conformed to what this idiot cop considered normal. We need to reel in the police and strengthen our social programs. This is not supposed to happen in the "idea" of America, but the reality is now on the web for all to see....murder, plain and simple.
115
Notice how many of the pigs have shaved heads like a membership requirement of some bully boy nazi club. Typical of punk males wishing they had real testicles between their legs instead of needing to rely on a lame substitute for them sewn onto their jacket or pinned to their shirt.
117
This is why you always do what a cop tells you. Even if it's the most rediculous thing and against your rights, do it. Cops have real guns with real bullets. Just hope that unlike Mr. Williams, you have time to process those instructions before you're dead on the ground.
118
@117: If someone behind you says "Hey hey hey, put your hands in the air" are you always going to put your hands in the air? Or are you going to turn around first to see what yokel is yelling at you (or possibly yelling at someone else)? Decide quickly, you only have a few seconds before that someone pumps four shots into you.
119
This makes me sick in the stomach. No wonder why there is so many people in the world that are anti America. America cops all a bunch of cowboys :( ..... Can anyone tell me what punishment the officer got?
120
That fucking officer fired enough shots to be sure that innocent man wouldnt be able to tell his side of the story.I hope that cop rots in hell
123
"Why didn't an ambulance arrive with the police cars?"
Posted by Terry on December 18, 2010 at 1:17 AM
This is precisely the question that struck me, too.
My thoughts go out to Williams family and loved ones.
Posted by Terry on December 18, 2010 at 1:17 AM
This is precisely the question that struck me, too.
My thoughts go out to Williams family and loved ones.
124
It's starting to spread virally, I hope the SPD are shitting their pants right now, this thing is world-wide and white-hot. You are "foooked".
127
@119 et al
I have a home in Italy at which my family spends a couple of months a year. When there we frequently take short trips into Germany or Austria.
If I were to pick a place in which to run afoul of the law I would pick the United States. (Or you could always just obey the damn law and not have to deal with law enforcement at all. But that would just be silly!) In Italy I've had a carabinieri step in front of our car and do a document check. We weren't doing anything wrong, and got no ticket. He was just bored and wanted to push someone around. Look at Amanda Knox, who was beaten by police during interrogation (without a translator, attorney, rest, food or bathroom breaks for 14 hours.) She was recently tried for using that interrogation as a defense in her murder trial. Never mind that in fact that she had been beaten by police. In Italy truth is not a defense when accused of slandering public officials. How about the journalist Spezzi in Florence who together with Douglass Preston was railroaded by Italian police and prosecutors and even accused of murder for following a story and being critical of a botched serial murder investigation? In Germany I watched a man physically thrown by an officer for refusing an order to move out of the way. No arrest, no warrant, he just picked the man up by his lapels and chucked him into a bush. I take each of my nieces and nephews on a month long tour of Europe for graduation and give them this advice- You are in a foreign country without the civil rights you enjoy in the United States. If ordered to do something by an official, just do it. See, I don't want them to sit in a British or French or German jail cell for a year waiting to be charged, never mind go to trial.
So to all of those anti Americans posting- I wish you a very merry Christmas and a prosperous new year. If you don't like this country you are cordially invited to stay out of it.
More...
I have a home in Italy at which my family spends a couple of months a year. When there we frequently take short trips into Germany or Austria.
If I were to pick a place in which to run afoul of the law I would pick the United States. (Or you could always just obey the damn law and not have to deal with law enforcement at all. But that would just be silly!) In Italy I've had a carabinieri step in front of our car and do a document check. We weren't doing anything wrong, and got no ticket. He was just bored and wanted to push someone around. Look at Amanda Knox, who was beaten by police during interrogation (without a translator, attorney, rest, food or bathroom breaks for 14 hours.) She was recently tried for using that interrogation as a defense in her murder trial. Never mind that in fact that she had been beaten by police. In Italy truth is not a defense when accused of slandering public officials. How about the journalist Spezzi in Florence who together with Douglass Preston was railroaded by Italian police and prosecutors and even accused of murder for following a story and being critical of a botched serial murder investigation? In Germany I watched a man physically thrown by an officer for refusing an order to move out of the way. No arrest, no warrant, he just picked the man up by his lapels and chucked him into a bush. I take each of my nieces and nephews on a month long tour of Europe for graduation and give them this advice- You are in a foreign country without the civil rights you enjoy in the United States. If ordered to do something by an official, just do it. See, I don't want them to sit in a British or French or German jail cell for a year waiting to be charged, never mind go to trial.
So to all of those anti Americans posting- I wish you a very merry Christmas and a prosperous new year. If you don't like this country you are cordially invited to stay out of it.
128
Nice try, but nope. The SPD and county prosecutors are investigating a crime in the same way they would if you were accused of criminal behavior. Offcer iBirk has surrendered badge and gun, and a review board has judged this shooting unjustified. Sure, since he is law enforcement union regulations change some of the steps and some of the presumptions. So what? Officer Birks will face an inquest and whatever follows just as you or I would. All of you would lynch the man without giving him the due process that apparently Mr. Williams, tragically, did not receive.
For all of you who hate the police just because- Please don't call them when your home is burglarized, or when your daughter calls in panic at a college bus-stop on account of the creepy guy stalking her. Please hire personal security to patrol your neighborhoods. When the idiot 16 year old with the souped up Honda barrels down your residential street at 50 narrowly missing your kids on the bikes, don't call the cops. That road raging jerk who just pulled a pistol after nearly forcing you off the road? Your problem, but don't call the State Patrol.
Not all cops are good people, and some are downright bad people. With 1300 or so officers in the SPD, even with screening and reviews some will slip through. This is why we have disciplinary divisions within the police, and courts where these fail. All of you have the freedom to slander the vast majority of public minded decent officers keeping your streets safe. I respect that freedom, but not the use you make of it.
For all of you who hate the police just because- Please don't call them when your home is burglarized, or when your daughter calls in panic at a college bus-stop on account of the creepy guy stalking her. Please hire personal security to patrol your neighborhoods. When the idiot 16 year old with the souped up Honda barrels down your residential street at 50 narrowly missing your kids on the bikes, don't call the cops. That road raging jerk who just pulled a pistol after nearly forcing you off the road? Your problem, but don't call the State Patrol.
Not all cops are good people, and some are downright bad people. With 1300 or so officers in the SPD, even with screening and reviews some will slip through. This is why we have disciplinary divisions within the police, and courts where these fail. All of you have the freedom to slander the vast majority of public minded decent officers keeping your streets safe. I respect that freedom, but not the use you make of it.
129
@128: No, you lost, you're an asshole and you're trying to take a high road you can't even reach. Fuck off.
130
@115: You can fuck yourself up the ass with a cactus dipped in hydrochloric acid. My uncle's a cop with a shaved head.You know why he shaves his head? Because he'd rather have a shaved head than show off his male-pattern baldness all over the place. Go eat a bag of horse dicks and choke on them. Yes, I'm a wee bit mad.
@129: Baconcat, the good Seattleblues is sadly impervious to logic. Don't get all worked up about him.
@128: How ya doin' there, Bullet Head? You know, we're not calling for Birk to be lynched. We just want him brought to justice, and we think, based on the evidence, that justice entails him going to college for a graduate degree in making license plates. You can support the police and still go after the bad apples among them, for your information.
@129: Baconcat, the good Seattleblues is sadly impervious to logic. Don't get all worked up about him.
@128: How ya doin' there, Bullet Head? You know, we're not calling for Birk to be lynched. We just want him brought to justice, and we think, based on the evidence, that justice entails him going to college for a graduate degree in making license plates. You can support the police and still go after the bad apples among them, for your information.
131
@130
'Fuck you' is now a syllogism? I mean, I know that it's the only response the average liberal has when losing an argument, but that hardly places it on the footing of 'logic.' You might retake that course, if that's all you gleaned from logic 101.
What evidence? Or aren't they teaching 'innocent until proven guilty' at your university? See, back when I was being educated this was considered a cornerstone of American criminal law. Since the libs took over the universities, I guess that's changed. So what's the standard now, young man? We don't like cops, so they're all guilty before a trial? One cop apparently
comitted a crime, so they're all criminals. Oh brave new world....
You know what, you seem to be a bright boy. Probably with some life experience and the completion of your education you'll gain a bit of wisdom to leaven your intelligence. Until then, some courses in reading comprehension might be to your advantage. I clearly and frequently wrote that the problem isn't potentially prosecuting this officer. If he broke the law, if he murdered someone, he will pay for it. The problem is that you and your buddies here are calling for exactly the same lack of due process you believe Mr. Williams received.
'Fuck you' is now a syllogism? I mean, I know that it's the only response the average liberal has when losing an argument, but that hardly places it on the footing of 'logic.' You might retake that course, if that's all you gleaned from logic 101.
What evidence? Or aren't they teaching 'innocent until proven guilty' at your university? See, back when I was being educated this was considered a cornerstone of American criminal law. Since the libs took over the universities, I guess that's changed. So what's the standard now, young man? We don't like cops, so they're all guilty before a trial? One cop apparently
comitted a crime, so they're all criminals. Oh brave new world....
You know what, you seem to be a bright boy. Probably with some life experience and the completion of your education you'll gain a bit of wisdom to leaven your intelligence. Until then, some courses in reading comprehension might be to your advantage. I clearly and frequently wrote that the problem isn't potentially prosecuting this officer. If he broke the law, if he murdered someone, he will pay for it. The problem is that you and your buddies here are calling for exactly the same lack of due process you believe Mr. Williams received.
133
128/Seattleblues: Offcer iBirk has surrendered badge and gun, and a review board has judged this shooting unjustified. . . All of you would lynch the man without giving him the due process that apparently Mr. Williams, tragically, did not receive.
Many people here, myself included, merely feel what the review board has concluded: the shooting (and killing) or Mr. Williams by Officer Birk was unjustified.
You are (or certainly seem to be) confusing having opinions about a person's actions with wanting to deprive them of due process. Just because someone feels that Officer Birk is guilty of murder (or manslaughter) it hardly logically follows that they want to lynch him without a trial.
Many people here, myself included, merely feel what the review board has concluded: the shooting (and killing) or Mr. Williams by Officer Birk was unjustified.
You are (or certainly seem to be) confusing having opinions about a person's actions with wanting to deprive them of due process. Just because someone feels that Officer Birk is guilty of murder (or manslaughter) it hardly logically follows that they want to lynch him without a trial.
135
@131: Who said "fuck you"? You're imagining things, Seattleblues.
When I refer to evidence, I'm talking about the findings of the review board, the revelation that the knife was found closed, and the extremely short time elapsed between the orders given and the shots fired.
Anyone in this country who hates the police is an idiot. Anyone who approves of the police, but thinks that it's a crime for the state to tax its citizens is a hypocrite. I'm not saying that anyone is; I'm just throwing that statement out.
The law says he's innocent until proven guilty. I think he's guilty, based on my assessment of the facts, and I think the law will agree. Are you saying that we shouldn't express our opinions until the case is decided?
And for the record, until we "libs" took over the universities, Jews, homosexuals, blacks, and Asians were generally not allowed to study alongside you Real Americans, and any science professor who gave mention to the theory of evolution through natural selection might be in danger of losing his job. Conservatives of the past century or so don't have a very good record in terms of academic integrity.
When I refer to evidence, I'm talking about the findings of the review board, the revelation that the knife was found closed, and the extremely short time elapsed between the orders given and the shots fired.
Anyone in this country who hates the police is an idiot. Anyone who approves of the police, but thinks that it's a crime for the state to tax its citizens is a hypocrite. I'm not saying that anyone is; I'm just throwing that statement out.
The law says he's innocent until proven guilty. I think he's guilty, based on my assessment of the facts, and I think the law will agree. Are you saying that we shouldn't express our opinions until the case is decided?
And for the record, until we "libs" took over the universities, Jews, homosexuals, blacks, and Asians were generally not allowed to study alongside you Real Americans, and any science professor who gave mention to the theory of evolution through natural selection might be in danger of losing his job. Conservatives of the past century or so don't have a very good record in terms of academic integrity.
137
114 um just what uprising would that be , who would be in it , and who would be the target in that up rising exactly? just curious.
138
Rich Oneil from the police guild should be charged with rendering criminal assistance. He made up the false statement that birk signed back at the clubhouse. He's twice as guilty as Ricky Hinton. Ian Birk is a cold blooded killer.http://www.flickr.com/photos/soggydan/5124701233/
141
Do Americans really believe the national anthem ?
Would those that do please wake up now that there are dozens of countries those two lines describes more accurately than the USA.
Home of the brave. (yeah brave cop)
Land of the free. (free to walk the streets without fear)
Would those that do please wake up now that there are dozens of countries those two lines describes more accurately than the USA.
Home of the brave. (yeah brave cop)
Land of the free. (free to walk the streets without fear)
143
every person who feels Birk must be vigorously prosecuted should write a strongly worded letter, followed up with a phone call- it's possible public pressure would make it impossible to not file charges. Anyone who OKs Birk's behavior by inaction gets the government and the police force they deserve. Unfortunately, the rest of us have to put up with it too. So please, everybody take a few minutes and do your part...
Contact Mayor McGinn: http://www.seattle.gov/mayor/citizen_res…
Contact SPD OPA: https://www.seattle.gov/police/OPA/Compl…
Contact federal officials who review such incidents: Thomas Perez
Assistant Attorney General
United States Department of Justice Civil Rights Division,
Special Litigation Section
950 Pennsylvania Ave. NW, Washington, D.C. 20530
Honorable Jenny Durkan
United States Attorney
700 Stewart St.
Seattle, WA 98101
Inquest begins January 10, 9AM. King County Courthouse.
Contact Mayor McGinn: http://www.seattle.gov/mayor/citizen_res…
Contact SPD OPA: https://www.seattle.gov/police/OPA/Compl…
Contact federal officials who review such incidents: Thomas Perez
Assistant Attorney General
United States Department of Justice Civil Rights Division,
Special Litigation Section
950 Pennsylvania Ave. NW, Washington, D.C. 20530
Honorable Jenny Durkan
United States Attorney
700 Stewart St.
Seattle, WA 98101
Inquest begins January 10, 9AM. King County Courthouse.
144
@135
You referred to the erudite rebuttal offered at 131 when pointing out my so clear lack of ability to be logical. The sum of that rebuttal appears to be 'I know you are, but what am I?' followed by a 'fuck you.' Yes, I realize that this is the height of logical form for most liberals, so I guess I AM ignorant of logic if this is logic.
For the rest, since I see no disagreement you show with the bigotry and hatred of the police displayed here in post after post, I assume you share it.
Re 138
Any, you know, proof of that allegation? No? Huh.
What you just did is called libel (or slander, depending on whether venting a hateful and ignorant if not actually intentionally dishonest opinion on some blog is publishing or speaking.) If Rich Oneil has any sense he'll sue you for whichever fits best.
Re 141
Then move to one of those 'dozens' of countries which are in your opinion fit the lines better.
Re 142
You're a racist and a fool. The 'music' you linked to is ugly chanting to a cannned drumline with no actual musical content. People like those who created this 'music' are much of the reason for lingering racism in caucasions incapable of separating scum like that out from law abiding hard working minority populations. Like all hip hop it has more connection to the mindless rhyming of a 4 year old child to no particular rhythm or harmony than to Bach or even Springsteen. Heck the violent kenetics of Black Sabbath come closer to music than the trash that is hip hop. Sorry, a correction is in order. If an angry, deeply psychotic and violent 4 year old misogynist child was mindlessly singing to himself, it would sound like this hip hop. Thank God libs don't have charge of children until kindergarten, or such a child might possibly exist.
More...
You referred to the erudite rebuttal offered at 131 when pointing out my so clear lack of ability to be logical. The sum of that rebuttal appears to be 'I know you are, but what am I?' followed by a 'fuck you.' Yes, I realize that this is the height of logical form for most liberals, so I guess I AM ignorant of logic if this is logic.
For the rest, since I see no disagreement you show with the bigotry and hatred of the police displayed here in post after post, I assume you share it.
Re 138
Any, you know, proof of that allegation? No? Huh.
What you just did is called libel (or slander, depending on whether venting a hateful and ignorant if not actually intentionally dishonest opinion on some blog is publishing or speaking.) If Rich Oneil has any sense he'll sue you for whichever fits best.
Re 141
Then move to one of those 'dozens' of countries which are in your opinion fit the lines better.
Re 142
You're a racist and a fool. The 'music' you linked to is ugly chanting to a cannned drumline with no actual musical content. People like those who created this 'music' are much of the reason for lingering racism in caucasions incapable of separating scum like that out from law abiding hard working minority populations. Like all hip hop it has more connection to the mindless rhyming of a 4 year old child to no particular rhythm or harmony than to Bach or even Springsteen. Heck the violent kenetics of Black Sabbath come closer to music than the trash that is hip hop. Sorry, a correction is in order. If an angry, deeply psychotic and violent 4 year old misogynist child was mindlessly singing to himself, it would sound like this hip hop. Thank God libs don't have charge of children until kindergarten, or such a child might possibly exist.
146
He gave his reason why he shot the man, because he had a "knife" and wouldn't put it down"...
As an innocent man walks across the street, what threat did he impose on the "officer" or more importantly, the public? As the man was trying to continue on with his life, why was he shot down?
Then to find out the knife was closed, again what threat did he impose on the "officer" or the public?
Is it alright for "officers" to shoot us citizens down now a days?
How do we defend ourselves against this? Are we safe?
As an innocent man walks across the street, what threat did he impose on the "officer" or more importantly, the public? As the man was trying to continue on with his life, why was he shot down?
Then to find out the knife was closed, again what threat did he impose on the "officer" or the public?
Is it alright for "officers" to shoot us citizens down now a days?
How do we defend ourselves against this? Are we safe?
147
Seattlebullshitblues: "The SPD and county prosecutors are investigating a crime in the same way they would if you were accused of criminal behavior. "
Bullshit. If you or I were accused of MURDER, we would be in JAIL! Ian Birk is NOT IN JAIL where he belongs!!!!! Other than that, I find you to just generally be full of shit.
Bullshit. If you or I were accused of MURDER, we would be in JAIL! Ian Birk is NOT IN JAIL where he belongs!!!!! Other than that, I find you to just generally be full of shit.
148
If we were indicted for murder and were either refused or could not raise bail then yes, we would be in jail, as would Officer Birks.
Since Officer Birks has not actually been charged with a crime he isn't now in jail. After the inquest on January 10th that may change. There are differences in initial process between you or I and law enforcement for very good reasons that are established within the law. I don't have time to educate you on basic civics and jurisprudence. However, you hate the police, are willing to judge them and this officer on the basis of a few seconds of video and aren't intelligent enough to understand these concepts anyway.
I get that in the fuzzy vague half light that is a liberal mind concepts like rule of law, due process, innocent until proven guilty and so on are subjective. I understand that you believe them to be applicable only to rapists or minorities or traitors like Bradley Manning or valueless scum like Julian Assange. For those of us with a grasp on reality these terms do apply to miscreants who aren't law enforcement. But they also apply to those in the law enforcement community charged with crimes. The standard isn't 'do I like the accused?' but 'is the accused due a day in court like any other person?' Again, I know that liberals don't get this, but there you have it.
Since Officer Birks has not actually been charged with a crime he isn't now in jail. After the inquest on January 10th that may change. There are differences in initial process between you or I and law enforcement for very good reasons that are established within the law. I don't have time to educate you on basic civics and jurisprudence. However, you hate the police, are willing to judge them and this officer on the basis of a few seconds of video and aren't intelligent enough to understand these concepts anyway.
I get that in the fuzzy vague half light that is a liberal mind concepts like rule of law, due process, innocent until proven guilty and so on are subjective. I understand that you believe them to be applicable only to rapists or minorities or traitors like Bradley Manning or valueless scum like Julian Assange. For those of us with a grasp on reality these terms do apply to miscreants who aren't law enforcement. But they also apply to those in the law enforcement community charged with crimes. The standard isn't 'do I like the accused?' but 'is the accused due a day in court like any other person?' Again, I know that liberals don't get this, but there you have it.
149
Incidentally, I love the well reasoned arguments against providing this officer with the same treatment any of you would want in similar circumstances.
My basic premise has been the following-
Officer Birks looks to have comitted a crime, based on a few seconds of video in which neither man is actually in camera range. Within standard police investigative procedure he was judged to have fired his weapon without justification. He now has neither badge nor gun and cannot act as an officer of the law until the facts are established by the normal rules of evidence any of us would insist on were we in similar straits. An inquest is scheduled into the tragic and possibly criminal death of John Williams. If the inquest finds criminal intent, Officer Birks will likely face charges of at least manslaughter, if not murder. The law is doing what the law is supposed to do in these cases. Failing the ability to bring Mr. Williams back, all it can do is dispassionately investigate the incident and dispassionately prosecute a crime if one occured.
To which the responses have been adolescent, at best. 'Fuck you' stands in for rational dispute, while 'you're full of shit' is somehow intended to refute any of the above.
The reason America is a center right nation is that liberals are so manifestly paralyzed in maturation. Your beliefs, reasoning abilities and maturity levels are those of a 13 year pothead rather than a adult citizen. Accordingly, you are in the minority politically and will remain so until you grow up.
My basic premise has been the following-
Officer Birks looks to have comitted a crime, based on a few seconds of video in which neither man is actually in camera range. Within standard police investigative procedure he was judged to have fired his weapon without justification. He now has neither badge nor gun and cannot act as an officer of the law until the facts are established by the normal rules of evidence any of us would insist on were we in similar straits. An inquest is scheduled into the tragic and possibly criminal death of John Williams. If the inquest finds criminal intent, Officer Birks will likely face charges of at least manslaughter, if not murder. The law is doing what the law is supposed to do in these cases. Failing the ability to bring Mr. Williams back, all it can do is dispassionately investigate the incident and dispassionately prosecute a crime if one occured.
To which the responses have been adolescent, at best. 'Fuck you' stands in for rational dispute, while 'you're full of shit' is somehow intended to refute any of the above.
The reason America is a center right nation is that liberals are so manifestly paralyzed in maturation. Your beliefs, reasoning abilities and maturity levels are those of a 13 year pothead rather than a adult citizen. Accordingly, you are in the minority politically and will remain so until you grow up.
150
Seattleblues- while you are being quite logical, your "you libs..." comments are equally if not more immature than the "fuck yous" you reference.
Take your own advice and grow up.
Take your own advice and grow up.
151
Seattleblues, please spare us the anti-librul whining.
If the same video surfaced, but Ian Burk had not been a police officer, you can bet your ass he'd have been charged with murder by now. The fact that he hasn't, coupled with the popular opinion that police officers are almost never punished in any meaningful way for abusing their positions of authority, makes some of us feel a bit frustrated by the fact that this piece of shit -- best we can tell from a revealing bit of audio prefaced by very clear video -- is on paid vacation right now and not sobbing in a jail cell, awaiting his day in court, wishing he could afford bail.
I'm with Fnarf on this one:
@78:
@88:
SPOG's support of the worst SPD has to offer puts us all in danger.
More...
If the same video surfaced, but Ian Burk had not been a police officer, you can bet your ass he'd have been charged with murder by now. The fact that he hasn't, coupled with the popular opinion that police officers are almost never punished in any meaningful way for abusing their positions of authority, makes some of us feel a bit frustrated by the fact that this piece of shit -- best we can tell from a revealing bit of audio prefaced by very clear video -- is on paid vacation right now and not sobbing in a jail cell, awaiting his day in court, wishing he could afford bail.
I'm with Fnarf on this one:
@78:
WHERE'S DIAZ?
It all comes from Chief Diaz. He's the patrol officer's boy. They know he will always support them; that's how he got to be chief. If you know you can get away with murder, you'll sink to murder.
It's been almost four months; why are we not hearing the sounds of balls being busted over there? Because Diaz works for the officers, not the other way around.
It's not about Birk. Birk screwed up. It happens. He misread the situation and made a deadly error. The problem is the attitude that Birk carried with him into that situation, which every officer carries with him, and about the cover they know they have from any repercussions. That's not Birk's fault, it's Diaz's.
@88:
Well, I know that if I was mayor, the chief would be in my office right now, and I'd be telling him, look, I don't give a shit about OPA or anyone else or what they think; _I'M_ telling you that this is unacceptable to _ME_ and I want to hear how you're going to get the force under control, and I want to hear it very soon. I don't want to hear about promises and investigations and action plans and bullet points; I want to hear that this shit is stopped, and that every single one of your officers understands that, or I'm going to be hearing you packing up your desk.
Unfortunately, there's no way the mayor can win a showdown like that. He picked the wrong man. He simply doesn't have the power to control his own force. The SPOG is going to tell him, "it's OK, man, we've got it, it'll never happen again" and then it will happen again.
SPOG's support of the worst SPD has to offer puts us all in danger.
152
To clarify, I agree with Fnarf's statements except for the part about this not being Birk's fault. I don't care how much hyper-aggressive motherfucking macho cop culture surrounds someone, stopping to hassle a stumbling old drunk with a pocket knife, warning him to put down his knife, then waiting FIVE SECONDS before shooting him dead is not acceptable. If Birk doesn't know that, then he is truly a psychopath and should be treated as such.
Diaz needs to shake things up and root out the rest of the psychopaths on the force. Apologies to the 90+% who are good people, but I take their silence as acceptance. Speak up about the "bad apples" or expect to be treated like you support them, officers.
Diaz needs to shake things up and root out the rest of the psychopaths on the force. Apologies to the 90+% who are good people, but I take their silence as acceptance. Speak up about the "bad apples" or expect to be treated like you support them, officers.
153
Everyone says "I saw a regular guy carving wood, minding his own business".
Um, then how can they argue the knife was in the closed position and Mr Friendly Woodcarver (who has had more contacts with police than most people on this comment board) didn't hear or respond to the officer?
If he was carving with a closed knife, that boy ain't right.
And, for everyone else, I recommend you take a Fire Arm Training Simulator Course. You would realize that 5 second is plenty of time in the danger zone with an attacker. You can google firearm training simulator, or take Seattle or Redmond's Citizens Police Acadamy.
Um, then how can they argue the knife was in the closed position and Mr Friendly Woodcarver (who has had more contacts with police than most people on this comment board) didn't hear or respond to the officer?
If he was carving with a closed knife, that boy ain't right.
And, for everyone else, I recommend you take a Fire Arm Training Simulator Course. You would realize that 5 second is plenty of time in the danger zone with an attacker. You can google firearm training simulator, or take Seattle or Redmond's Citizens Police Acadamy.
154
@153: Um, seems he closed it between being seen with it open and being shot with it closed. And everyone who watched the video says, "I saw a guy walking across the street in the crosswalk before a cop pulled up, stopped in the intersection, got out of the car, followed the man just outside of the view of the camera, told the man to drop the knife a couple times, then shot him dead."
156
9 Seconds elapsed from between the time the officer got out the car, and fired 3 shots. I wish I could see a video of what took place but either way have you ever heard of dont bring a knife to a gun fight... theres a reason people say that... This is just straight MURDER...
157
Here is a second thought, just be very careful when you walk the streets of Seattle.... Very Careful. I have a buddy who is a LAPD Police office and I just talked to him (He Called Just By Chance After I Got Done Watching This Video) I told him what I just watched and forwarded him the link, before he even watched it he told me in his Unit they have a joke, its called "Pulling A SPD"... He is from Seattle originally and the joke is aimed at him and his counter parts will say "Hey XXXXX, you gonna pull a SPD today" or in other words kill a citizen. He told me after he watched the video and we were on the phone, to be very careful because this could easily happen again and he doesnt want to see me get shot over having a cell phone, pocket knife or in my case a micro phone or something in my hand and that he wants to see me alive when he comes home for the holiday. What does that say about the SPD?
158
"Pulled an SPD today" ... Well as long as the officer is SAFE that is all that matters ...
Washington State has a BIG PROBLEM! After my 19 year old brother died in custody ... we protested ... After burrying him, I was pulled over, my truck towed, left on the side of the street, with no radar cert to prove speeding, (oh and my beat up truck won't even go 70). Also same officer pulled over another sibling leaving the same protest also for speeding ... kinda makes you go HUM ... that doesn't sound right!
Local paper claimed he was a RAPIST so no one cared ... Media would not cover it either!!
Hope your children and family members are safe from the SPD!! Denial Kills!!
Washington State has a BIG PROBLEM! After my 19 year old brother died in custody ... we protested ... After burrying him, I was pulled over, my truck towed, left on the side of the street, with no radar cert to prove speeding, (oh and my beat up truck won't even go 70). Also same officer pulled over another sibling leaving the same protest also for speeding ... kinda makes you go HUM ... that doesn't sound right!
Local paper claimed he was a RAPIST so no one cared ... Media would not cover it either!!
Hope your children and family members are safe from the SPD!! Denial Kills!!
159
Do not be afraid of the SPD. Predators are stimulated by fear. We the people have the numbers. Do not fall to their lows and use senseless violence. Violence is wrong. Instead, peacefully watch, observe and report. Look after your friends, family and yourself. If you see an officer, observe what they do. Use your cameras, use your video recorders use your memory use your voices. Do not be a slave to fear. Observe. SPD, we the people are watching you now even more closely than ever. Please be good.
"be sober, be vigilant, because your adversary the Devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour"
"be sober, be vigilant, because your adversary the Devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour"
160
@99, "I could have sworn I grew up in a country where a man was innocent until proven guilty." Cry me a river.
This coming from the person who wants to try and convict Bradley Manning of treason before he's had his due process.
This coming from the person who wants to try and convict Bradley Manning of treason before he's had his due process.
162
I think because police go through so much training to prepare for a senario like this that they should be held more accountable than a normal citizen that decides to shoot someone. They are supposed to be the ones trained to handle this thing. I actually had respect for the spd (not capitalized anymore) but that is gone now. Wow im disgusted, i kinda want to start flipping them off in protest and that isn't illegal, but they might just decide to tell me to put my finger down and shoot me.
163
to 158 you are not alone. the corprate media has worked hand and hand with the police to vilify those who they hurt to get the public on their side and torment the relitives of their victims.
comenter 37. "get them shit stained indians off our street" well excuse me . this is out land, you need to take your wormy dog white ass back to europe.
Are you that murders's moma or something? you have the same attitude your stinking deaise machine ancestors did when the genocidal savages landed on our shores.
thank God that some of your rece have risen above this sentiment and learned to respect somthing besides their delutions of superiorit and care about their fellow human beings, . why dont you go dig up your grandmothers and rob some graves so you can chew the bones of your own ancesters and leave us go about living. go away get out you have no right to be here in the first place remember that you stupid dog
this is going on all over the country and has been for centuries. only this is the first time it has been made this public. we have been used too many times for tatget pratice for bigots. and that was just what John Willans was a target. this was just another HATE CRIME THAT WILL BE WHITE WASHED.
comenter 37. "get them shit stained indians off our street" well excuse me . this is out land, you need to take your wormy dog white ass back to europe.
Are you that murders's moma or something? you have the same attitude your stinking deaise machine ancestors did when the genocidal savages landed on our shores.
thank God that some of your rece have risen above this sentiment and learned to respect somthing besides their delutions of superiorit and care about their fellow human beings, . why dont you go dig up your grandmothers and rob some graves so you can chew the bones of your own ancesters and leave us go about living. go away get out you have no right to be here in the first place remember that you stupid dog
this is going on all over the country and has been for centuries. only this is the first time it has been made this public. we have been used too many times for tatget pratice for bigots. and that was just what John Willans was a target. this was just another HATE CRIME THAT WILL BE WHITE WASHED.
164
So many things can be said about this incident but as a profoundly deaf (and partly sighted) person I am going to focus on that aspect as it chills me to the bone. The murder victim's perception of the world around him as a hearing impaired person is not a matter of just not hearing sound, it is that sounds as we experience them are so very different, often coming in as a jumbled confusing mess that threatens to overload us. As a result we have to tune much of what we experience out in order to just protect out sanity. Even if the poor man was just mildly hearing impaired the chances are that amongst the background clatter of the street he would have stood little chance of hearing his murderer shouting at him, no chance at all if that swine was behind him. I gather that there was less than seven seconds between the murderer first shouting at and them firing his automatic pistol at a man with a small 7cm blade. Seven seconds !
I am young, skilled lip and body reader and mentally agile but it would take me at least five seconds to even work out that the cop wanted something of me, but by that time he would have already made his decision to murder me. Personally I think that cop had made his decision to take that poor mans life as he got out of his car. He saw a man who did not match his ideal of a "good citizen" and he saw the carvers knife as a challenge to authority and that was all that was needed.
The other disturbing aspect was the witnessed reactions of his police colleagues. They assumed that their brother in blue had "done the right thing", no professional detachment there at all. Just because he wears the same uniform and locker room does not mean that all he does should not be questioned thoroughly. Shame on them all.
I am young, skilled lip and body reader and mentally agile but it would take me at least five seconds to even work out that the cop wanted something of me, but by that time he would have already made his decision to murder me. Personally I think that cop had made his decision to take that poor mans life as he got out of his car. He saw a man who did not match his ideal of a "good citizen" and he saw the carvers knife as a challenge to authority and that was all that was needed.
The other disturbing aspect was the witnessed reactions of his police colleagues. They assumed that their brother in blue had "done the right thing", no professional detachment there at all. Just because he wears the same uniform and locker room does not mean that all he does should not be questioned thoroughly. Shame on them all.
165
Look at all those cop cars, pointed towards the murder scene. Why haven't they released THOSE dashcam vids??? I don't relish the fact to see Mr. Williams' dead body, but I'd like to see what they were doing throughout this vid that we can only hear, not see.
Also, who and WHERE is this young lady that witnessed this act? I certainly understand how she is shook up and scared and maybe laying low, but she really needs (needed?) to step forward with her version of the events, and MORE IMPORTANTLY, is she ok? If I were her I would be TERRIFIED to be on SPD radar in this context.
Lots of rumors swirling, but Mr. Williams WAS known to SPD, and I wonder if Officer Birk had previous contact with him and when he saw him crossing the street, took that opportunity to settle some kind of score?
We all know now that Officer Birk will not be brought to justice for this vile act, and he has resigned. So, what does that mean? He got away with murder (manslaughter?), with only losing his job/career as a consequence??!!! (Small price to pay.) He deserves to stand trial and do time.
People, watch your backs, ESPECIALLY if you are of color. SPD is gunnin' for you. And remember to vote responsibly.
RIP Mr. John. T. Williams
xxxx
PS - To the Williams family, take them and break them ($$$$$$$$$$$)
Also, who and WHERE is this young lady that witnessed this act? I certainly understand how she is shook up and scared and maybe laying low, but she really needs (needed?) to step forward with her version of the events, and MORE IMPORTANTLY, is she ok? If I were her I would be TERRIFIED to be on SPD radar in this context.
Lots of rumors swirling, but Mr. Williams WAS known to SPD, and I wonder if Officer Birk had previous contact with him and when he saw him crossing the street, took that opportunity to settle some kind of score?
We all know now that Officer Birk will not be brought to justice for this vile act, and he has resigned. So, what does that mean? He got away with murder (manslaughter?), with only losing his job/career as a consequence??!!! (Small price to pay.) He deserves to stand trial and do time.
People, watch your backs, ESPECIALLY if you are of color. SPD is gunnin' for you. And remember to vote responsibly.
RIP Mr. John. T. Williams
xxxx
PS - To the Williams family, take them and break them ($$$$$$$$$$$)
166
Idiots...all of you. I heard, "Drop the knife 3 times."
1) Doesn't matter if the Williams was widdling, don't hold a knife when contacted by the police.
If he was a habitual drunk, he probably didn't respond in an appropriate manner.
2) The so called "witness" was not looking when the shooting began.
3) Several reports state at least one of the bullets entered Williams when the shooting began. People turn away when they are being shot.
4) The knife was found closed, I've seen cops shoot people who drop the gun, close the knife or throw the pipe away from themselves after they have been shot, not before.
5)You all decided the cop was a murderer when you read the headline.
1) Doesn't matter if the Williams was widdling, don't hold a knife when contacted by the police.
If he was a habitual drunk, he probably didn't respond in an appropriate manner.
2) The so called "witness" was not looking when the shooting began.
3) Several reports state at least one of the bullets entered Williams when the shooting began. People turn away when they are being shot.
4) The knife was found closed, I've seen cops shoot people who drop the gun, close the knife or throw the pipe away from themselves after they have been shot, not before.
5)You all decided the cop was a murderer when you read the headline.
168
Say what you want about him, Seattleblues is substantially more articulate and well reasoned than all of his critics combined. That said, it hurts me all the more deeply to cast my lot with the ostensible liberals on this one. When otherwise good cops close ranks around their worst, as they almost always do, the line between good cop and bad cop goes away. Cronyism corrupts. I want desperately to believe that cops are weeding out their sadists, racists and misanthropes, but I'm continually reminded that it's a long, slow and uphill process. Hampered start to finish by police unions, peer pressure, and misguided loyalties. I know in my bones that if any cop was ever to shoot me, that it would be:
a. a wrongful shooting
b. covered up and lied about by other cops
In response to the guy who said that it's a lot worse in Europe, I can only wholeheartedly agree. I wasn't feelin' too much love from the Gendarmes when I visited Vienna many years ago. Still, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive to get better here in the USA regardless. Even in Socialist Utopia, the cops step on your neck with a pretty heavy boot. Think about that, Obama lovers. The object of your worship, the omnipotent state, cannot be at once, both bigger AND kinder.
a. a wrongful shooting
b. covered up and lied about by other cops
In response to the guy who said that it's a lot worse in Europe, I can only wholeheartedly agree. I wasn't feelin' too much love from the Gendarmes when I visited Vienna many years ago. Still, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive to get better here in the USA regardless. Even in Socialist Utopia, the cops step on your neck with a pretty heavy boot. Think about that, Obama lovers. The object of your worship, the omnipotent state, cannot be at once, both bigger AND kinder.
169
There are so many things that I admire about this forum. First and foremost, that I may comment on this story and reply to the comments of others. In my home state of New Jersey, to comment publicly on many/most on-line periodicals guarantees a certain and timely death in First Amendment terms. To speak out in defense of the innocent and their plight here often invites angry rhetoric that results in immediate and violent backlash, or worse yet, censorship and the denial of any response in this kind of Public Forum. To you, citizens of Seattle, I congratulate you and pay homage to your bastion of Liberty. I ask only that, if you truly love your freedom and liberty, repent ypur evil ways, beg for Mr. Birk's forgiveness, pray that you and your loved ones are never the victims of crime and have a nice day.....jerk-offs.
Bubba
Bubba
171
@99 Are you disgusted at the raw emotion of people reacting to a murder or are you disgusted at the thought of what these same people would do if they were in charge? I can agree with you on the latter but I disagree with you if you are disgusted at just the raw emotion.
Do you know what consequences came of the inquest that Birk faced since it looks like the shooting was found to be unjustified? Also, do you know if the family is going to seek civil remedies, or if that is even an option for them at this point?
Can this guy be charged criminally at this point?
This guy needs to face true justice, not simply handing over his badge and gun.
Do you know what consequences came of the inquest that Birk faced since it looks like the shooting was found to be unjustified? Also, do you know if the family is going to seek civil remedies, or if that is even an option for them at this point?
Can this guy be charged criminally at this point?
This guy needs to face true justice, not simply handing over his badge and gun.
172
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