Slog
News & ArtsWednesday, December 15, 2010
Oh, You Kids! I'm Pro-Choice (If You're Talking about Choosing to Punch this 12-Year-Old in the Face)
Posted by Wm.™ Steven Humphrey on Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 1:46 PM
Ladies and gentlemen, in case you're wondering what you're going to be upset about when the Christine O'Donnells, Sarah Palins, and Ann Coulters of the world dry up and die—DON'T SWEAT IT! Super-annoying 12-year-old Lia Mills is ready and willing to take their place. Check out her "logical" argument against abortion and how making this choice is NOT like choosing an ice cream flavor! GOOD TO KNOW. (Eeeasy, fist. Stay right where you are.)
4
You know how your balls retract when it's cold? My eyeballs have retracted into my skull just like that to avoid her bullshit, and now I'm blind. Thanks, asshole.
Also, why the phrase "dry up and die"? I think you just mean "die".
Also, why the phrase "dry up and die"? I think you just mean "die".
5
Oh my fucking God.
"I am very pro-choice, I think women should have the right to decide... whether or not they have kids."
By that she means the only sluts have sex, and if you get pregnant having slutty slut sex you should have to LIVE WITH THE CONSEQUENCES of your bad, bad, slutty sex. SMH.
This kid is articulate and knows how to speak on camera, but holy hell, can someone educate her, please?
"I am very pro-choice, I think women should have the right to decide... whether or not they have kids."
By that she means the only sluts have sex, and if you get pregnant having slutty slut sex you should have to LIVE WITH THE CONSEQUENCES of your bad, bad, slutty sex. SMH.
This kid is articulate and knows how to speak on camera, but holy hell, can someone educate her, please?
6
getting past the annoyance factor, I am having a hard time thinking of something else that society thinks should be "safe, legal, and rare." Hadn't thought of that apparent contradiction before. Sort of a necessary evil. Murder in self-defense, perhaps? Needle exchanges?
8
Well, if my know-it-all phase was any indication, she's pretty much guaranteed that she'll have an abortion at some point in the next 20 years.
10
I am, right this moment, saying a prayer to the flying spaghetti monster in thanks that youtube did not exist to record the jesus freak twattery that I would have recorded at 12. amen.
11
Check out her reasoning on why the unborn are human (link appears in the upper corner after this irritating little diatribe wraps up). This girl has had absolutely no education, but apparently a LOT of indoctrination.
12
Ugh. Nothing new to see here, move along. Just another moron comparing abortion to murder. *yawn* There was once a girl in my high school class who handed out leaflets for her mom (I assumed) that talked about how abortion was murder. The pamphlet had a picture of a fetus at LEAST in it's third trimester of development with something like "do you really want to kill a child?"
When I asked her if she understood that most abortions are only legal in the first trimester when a "fetus" is nothing but a mass of cells and still has yet to rsemble a human, let alone developed feelings or nerves. She accused me of lying and pointed to the picture and said "THIS is what they look like when you abort a baby!"
Misinformation has always been there along with false arguments like this. And with the downward trend of intelligence our country seems to be experiencing I don't see it's effective diminishing anytime soon.
When I asked her if she understood that most abortions are only legal in the first trimester when a "fetus" is nothing but a mass of cells and still has yet to rsemble a human, let alone developed feelings or nerves. She accused me of lying and pointed to the picture and said "THIS is what they look like when you abort a baby!"
Misinformation has always been there along with false arguments like this. And with the downward trend of intelligence our country seems to be experiencing I don't see it's effective diminishing anytime soon.
14
ALL BABIES WANT TO GET BORN!
Or actually, what @8 said...she'll be knocked up before she can drink.
Or actually, what @8 said...she'll be knocked up before she can drink.
15
@10 Ditto. I think I also signed a D.A.R.E. pledge in junior high. A few years later, I was picking "magic mushrooms" on my college campus.
16
Fallacy: "Abortion Kills a Baby, everyone knows that!"
That is begging the question.
Why am I preaching to the choir?
That is begging the question.
Why am I preaching to the choir?
18
You are pretty smart for your age but you're still a child.
You do not understand adult issues and gray areas but you will someday.
Meanwhile, go ask Mommy or Daddy why the Ten Commandments say don't kill but cops/soldiers kill people all the time. Is God going to strike them down? No. Go have that gray area explained to you.
Also, honey, if you are for women deciding whether or not to have kids, they also get to decide WHEN they have kids.
Go talk to the Supreme Court about who is and isn't a human. That's their job, not yours.
Little girl, go eat your ice cream. Don't lecture the rest of us.
You do not understand adult issues and gray areas but you will someday.
Meanwhile, go ask Mommy or Daddy why the Ten Commandments say don't kill but cops/soldiers kill people all the time. Is God going to strike them down? No. Go have that gray area explained to you.
Also, honey, if you are for women deciding whether or not to have kids, they also get to decide WHEN they have kids.
Go talk to the Supreme Court about who is and isn't a human. That's their job, not yours.
Little girl, go eat your ice cream. Don't lecture the rest of us.
19
Something tells me her litmus morality test of "not harming others" goes out the window were someone to ask her if she supports Gay Marriage.
"It doesn't rob anyone else of their rights if I buy a GM over a Ford."
"It doesn't rob anyone else of their rights if I buy a GM over a Ford."
20
This poor child has obviously been programmed by christianists.
As much as a part of me DOES want to punch her in the face, another part of me wants to give her a hug and tell her I am sorry that she will spend the rest of her life dealing with the human programming that mom and dad's particular brand of crazy has burdened her soul with for the rest of her life.
THEN, I'd punch her.
As much as a part of me DOES want to punch her in the face, another part of me wants to give her a hug and tell her I am sorry that she will spend the rest of her life dealing with the human programming that mom and dad's particular brand of crazy has burdened her soul with for the rest of her life.
THEN, I'd punch her.
22
Not everything is black and white. 100% right or 100% wrong. 100% personal choice or 100% infringement on the rights of others. I hope she'll learn this with time and maturity, but, frankly, I know some adults who still struggle with this concept.
23
@15 HaHA! I won the DARE essay contest in 5th grade, my "Just Say No" essay was so good! Now, I always say yes.
DARE:Foundational Education for the Future Experimentalist.
DARE:Foundational Education for the Future Experimentalist.
24
@ 6
I'm surprised no one responded to this more, I guess the girl is just that creepy. Smoking, drinking, fireworks, etc are close, but not quite the same. They are costly and damaging, but we love them, so these are different. But things like war, assassination, some gov. security measures, and economic sanctions I think could all fit in the same category as abortion. We don't like them, don't want them, but we should be able to do them just in case. Notice that a lot of these are similar to murder in self defense, when it comes down to you or someone else, you choose yourself. There's a lot more to this, but I'll leave off here.
I'm surprised no one responded to this more, I guess the girl is just that creepy. Smoking, drinking, fireworks, etc are close, but not quite the same. They are costly and damaging, but we love them, so these are different. But things like war, assassination, some gov. security measures, and economic sanctions I think could all fit in the same category as abortion. We don't like them, don't want them, but we should be able to do them just in case. Notice that a lot of these are similar to murder in self defense, when it comes down to you or someone else, you choose yourself. There's a lot more to this, but I'll leave off here.
26
I have a fuzzy recollection of being an anti abortionist at her age. I feel pretty bad about the comments I made way back.
I also had some pretty warped ideas about women... namely that a Mother is someone who must sacrifice everything of herself for her children.
I also had some pretty warped ideas about women... namely that a Mother is someone who must sacrifice everything of herself for her children.
27
@6- I am having a hard time thinking of something else that society thinks should be "safe, legal, and rare."
Every other kind of surgery. Tah-DAH!
Every other kind of surgery. Tah-DAH!
28
I don't think she wrote that, she sounds like a spokes-child so that this argument can be spread to other children. She is quite good though, very reasonable seeming. It has all of the false logic of the anti-choice press. She is using arguments that they frequently employ. This thought process is that which is used to attempt to make abortion illegal even in cases of rape and incest.
A fetus is not a human until it is born alive. Women are not simply baby-making machines.
A fetus is not a human until it is born alive. Women are not simply baby-making machines.
30
So, things that are rare, and bad for you, should be illegal.
Like chocolate ice cream. Good to know.
Like chocolate ice cream. Good to know.
31
She's better informed than the majority of Pro-Enforced-Pregnancy Pundits. And young enough that it might actually be constructive to debate her. It would still be awfully damn satisfying to punch her in the face, though.
32
If this kid is against abortion, then by all means she shouldn't have one. But I really, really hope she doesn't reproduce.
34
It's pretty hilarious that people are replying to this thread in such a manner that they expect her to see their responses. Internet OUT.
35
It's funny, because I'm the exact opposite. If I was King of the World, abortion would be a legal choice, but vanilla ice cream would be mandatory. A religious sacrament, in fact.
36
12
"most"?
so how many abortions, by your reckoning, murder a baby and how many just destroy tissue?
and since "most" abortions are not murder it is OK that some are?
"most"?
so how many abortions, by your reckoning, murder a baby and how many just destroy tissue?
and since "most" abortions are not murder it is OK that some are?
37
Will you just listen to yourselves? You're talking about a child - calling her a "twat"? Really? She's annoying, sure, but the way she's being burned at the stake here is absurd. Imho.
39
18
actually the Supreme Court's job is to rule on what laws are constitutional.
they are very poorly equipped to rule on who/what is human, and when they stray into that area they err painfully.
see 'Dred Scott'
biologists could tell you what is and isn't human life.
they are trained.
they will tell you conception creates a new human life.
That's their job, not yours.
Little girl, go eat your ice cream. Don't lecture the rest of us.
.
actually the Supreme Court's job is to rule on what laws are constitutional.
they are very poorly equipped to rule on who/what is human, and when they stray into that area they err painfully.
see 'Dred Scott'
biologists could tell you what is and isn't human life.
they are trained.
they will tell you conception creates a new human life.
That's their job, not yours.
Little girl, go eat your ice cream. Don't lecture the rest of us.
.
40
27
Surgery (for actual medical purpose, not to slaughter a baby...) makes someone whole and healthy.
Why do you wish to see it 'rare'?
(you're not still buttsore over that horrible mutulating accident during your penis 'enlargement', are you....)
Surgery (for actual medical purpose, not to slaughter a baby...) makes someone whole and healthy.
Why do you wish to see it 'rare'?
(you're not still buttsore over that horrible mutulating accident during your penis 'enlargement', are you....)
42
@40: Surgery is only necessary when there is a problem with someone's body that needs to be fixed. Therefore, surgery implies illness. Saying that surgery should be rare is like saying that we shouldn't need police. Sure, the police keep us safe, but in a perfect world we wouldn't need police.
@38, 39, 41: Well, look who knows so much? Are any of you boys biologists? As a BIOS major myself, I'll give you sorry sons-of-bitches some edumacation.
If I perform a buccal swab on myself, the cheek cells I pull off are genetically human, with 46 chromosomes floating in their nuclei (assuming they're in Gap 1 of the cell cycle). They contain human mitochondria, and are fed by my bloodstream. Are they human? Yes. Are they human beings? No. Should they be accorded any rights? No.
A cheek cell is not a human being because it cannot survive on its own. An embryo is not a human being until it is capable of surviving outside of the mother's uterus; that is, until it is a late-term fetus. The day that we have the technology to safely and cheaply remove an embryo from the womb of a woman who doesn't want to carry it to term and implant it into that of a woman who does, you can talk about banning abortion. Until then, you'd be doing an injustice to many women by forcing them to create new life against their will.
@38, 39, 41: Well, look who knows so much? Are any of you boys biologists? As a BIOS major myself, I'll give you sorry sons-of-bitches some edumacation.
If I perform a buccal swab on myself, the cheek cells I pull off are genetically human, with 46 chromosomes floating in their nuclei (assuming they're in Gap 1 of the cell cycle). They contain human mitochondria, and are fed by my bloodstream. Are they human? Yes. Are they human beings? No. Should they be accorded any rights? No.
A cheek cell is not a human being because it cannot survive on its own. An embryo is not a human being until it is capable of surviving outside of the mother's uterus; that is, until it is a late-term fetus. The day that we have the technology to safely and cheaply remove an embryo from the womb of a woman who doesn't want to carry it to term and implant it into that of a woman who does, you can talk about banning abortion. Until then, you'd be doing an injustice to many women by forcing them to create new life against their will.
43
I don't care if she's 12, Holy fuck she's an insufferable twat.
It's like Tracy Flick from Election fucked Vanessa Bayer's over-acting child star character from SNL.
It's like Tracy Flick from Election fucked Vanessa Bayer's over-acting child star character from SNL.
44
"forcing them to create new life against their will."
"create" life?
what is in them is not alive? zombie embryo?
so why the rush to kill it?
think carefully, junior-
no one is forcing anyone to create a new life.
they created new life themself when they had sex and got pregnant.
(have you studied that yet, mr bios? if not ask your mommy. or the milkman.)
no. the life has already been created.
Human Life.
sure- society doesn't recognize that these new members of the race have any rights. "Toss them into the ovens..."
but that is a moral issue.
not a biological one.
the biology is clear.
and simple.
conception creates a new human life.
btw defining human life based on the current state of medical science is really looney. it's alive or it isn't. you finding excuses in your homoliberalhumanist theology to kill it is no different than prewar Southerners defending slavery based on the Bible or Nazis using their pseudo-science to justify slaughtering Jews.
The Jews, Africans and unborn are all humans deserving respect and life.
The fact that asshole Nazis, Slaveholders and abortionists deny those rights and pass laws to legalize their immoral behavior doesn't change anything.
"because it cannot survive on its own." is not a definition of life, junior.
what are the criterea of "Life"?
list them.
an embryo posses ALL of them.
Surgery doesn't cause illness.
It reverses it.
Surgery is a good thing.
One may wish for Illness to be rare but it is not logical or humane to wish for surgery to be rare.
unless the only point of the surgery is to slaughter an innocent human life.
Do we wish that cures for AIDS be rare?
A cure implies that there is illness.
Do we hope cures for AIDS are rare?
No, junior, we do not.
we do not hope that good things are 'rare'.
Abortion is not a good thing.
It is a monstrous depraved wicked thing.
Even it's supporters recognize that.
Their guilt leads them to mew that they hope abortion becomes 'rare'.
They are lying hypocrites.
and murderers...
a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, Junior.
careful- you'll hurt yourself.....
More...
"create" life?
what is in them is not alive? zombie embryo?
so why the rush to kill it?
think carefully, junior-
no one is forcing anyone to create a new life.
they created new life themself when they had sex and got pregnant.
(have you studied that yet, mr bios? if not ask your mommy. or the milkman.)
no. the life has already been created.
Human Life.
sure- society doesn't recognize that these new members of the race have any rights. "Toss them into the ovens..."
but that is a moral issue.
not a biological one.
the biology is clear.
and simple.
conception creates a new human life.
btw defining human life based on the current state of medical science is really looney. it's alive or it isn't. you finding excuses in your homoliberalhumanist theology to kill it is no different than prewar Southerners defending slavery based on the Bible or Nazis using their pseudo-science to justify slaughtering Jews.
The Jews, Africans and unborn are all humans deserving respect and life.
The fact that asshole Nazis, Slaveholders and abortionists deny those rights and pass laws to legalize their immoral behavior doesn't change anything.
"because it cannot survive on its own." is not a definition of life, junior.
what are the criterea of "Life"?
list them.
an embryo posses ALL of them.
Surgery doesn't cause illness.
It reverses it.
Surgery is a good thing.
One may wish for Illness to be rare but it is not logical or humane to wish for surgery to be rare.
unless the only point of the surgery is to slaughter an innocent human life.
Do we wish that cures for AIDS be rare?
A cure implies that there is illness.
Do we hope cures for AIDS are rare?
No, junior, we do not.
we do not hope that good things are 'rare'.
Abortion is not a good thing.
It is a monstrous depraved wicked thing.
Even it's supporters recognize that.
Their guilt leads them to mew that they hope abortion becomes 'rare'.
They are lying hypocrites.
and murderers...
a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, Junior.
careful- you'll hurt yourself.....
45
@44
Looks like someone is short-circuiting.
Also, you were the first to use the Nazis slaughtering the Jews thing to appeal to your own argument so you automatically lose.
Looks like someone is short-circuiting.
Also, you were the first to use the Nazis slaughtering the Jews thing to appeal to your own argument so you automatically lose.
46
Woe unto them, Rationalizing murder and whatever dumbass handles you cook up to.....
I wish to quote the Shit my Dad Says Twitter feed
"Everyone thinks their opinion matters. Don't argue with a nobody. A farmer doesn't bother telling a pig his breath smells like shit."
You're an uneducated nobody who thinks they have a good argument, but in reality, you don't. Go back to your own pond and leave the big issues to folks with cognitive thinking skills.
I wish to quote the Shit my Dad Says Twitter feed
"Everyone thinks their opinion matters. Don't argue with a nobody. A farmer doesn't bother telling a pig his breath smells like shit."
You're an uneducated nobody who thinks they have a good argument, but in reality, you don't. Go back to your own pond and leave the big issues to folks with cognitive thinking skills.
47
"Which flavor of ice cream should I have?" ≠ "Should someone unready or unwilling to be a parent be forced to carry a fetus to term?" Arguments made by any who would boil down such an important topic to such comparisons cannot be taken seriously. Hopefully these sanctimonious interlopers will one day learn that. Maybe around the time they learn to drive, or accidentally get pregnant themselves and really have to really think about it.
48
@37: I think you'll change your mind if you pronounce it as the Brits do ("twæt") rather than as we Yanks do ("twɑt"). She is clearly the former.
49
Definitely a case of being too young to have really developed her own moral compass yet. Of course, she'd deny that accusation, but she is definitely missing out on the nuances of the situation that her parents haven't seen fit to discuss with her. Fortunately, she seems reasonably intelligent, hopefully she'll come around when she gets more exposure to ideas that aren't Mommy and Daddy's.
50
There are actually huge logical gaps in her argument. I don't know if some of them are what was cut out in the editing process, or if she was just looking at her script between those takes, but yeah...
51
#15) I found my old D.A.R.E. graduate card when I was in college. Suffice it to say I'd be fucked if anyone decided to test it for anything.
52
What else should be safe, legal and rare- how about the sorry excuse for commentary on this board? Speech is a protected freedom in this country, but thankfully, people who would punch a little girl in the face for speaking words they don't agree with (and doing so with perhaps a bit too much skill?) are rare.
53
@52, what the hell are you talking about? I'd punch a little girl in the face just for the fun of it. Or for choosing the wrong ice cream, which this stupid clanger is obviously going to do every time.
54
I could have been that child 20 years ago. I had anti-abortion stickers on my locker, and my brother and I went to teen prayer rallies (he would often cry at them). The mother of my best friend was an evangelical preacher, and so we absorbed a lot from her. I was very logical and earnest.
As I grew up, we learned a lot more about the gray areas of life. One of our friends had her baby on prom night. I drove my best friend to the clinic when she found out she was pregnant - two days after her boyfriend got drunk and gave her a black eye. I had friends who were raped, and was there when my roommate had a miscarriage.
I now am a volunteer fundraiser for NARAL and Emily's List. After going a little wild and hating himself for a while, my brother now has a good career and is living happily ever after with his very handsome boyfriend.
So I don't really have any urges to punch this girl in the face, but I am curious to hear from her again in a decade or two.
As I grew up, we learned a lot more about the gray areas of life. One of our friends had her baby on prom night. I drove my best friend to the clinic when she found out she was pregnant - two days after her boyfriend got drunk and gave her a black eye. I had friends who were raped, and was there when my roommate had a miscarriage.
I now am a volunteer fundraiser for NARAL and Emily's List. After going a little wild and hating himself for a while, my brother now has a good career and is living happily ever after with his very handsome boyfriend.
So I don't really have any urges to punch this girl in the face, but I am curious to hear from her again in a decade or two.
56
Ugh, I couldn't finish watching that. It's so obviously scripted for her though, her extremely awkward transition from ice cream to murder is kind of funny though.
What can teenage girls relate to? Oh I know, jealousy and boys!
Her arguments are the same flawed condescending ones every rightwing religious nutjob knows how to parrot.
What can teenage girls relate to? Oh I know, jealousy and boys!
Her arguments are the same flawed condescending ones every rightwing religious nutjob knows how to parrot.
57
That kid reminds me of a nazi documentary i once saw; where the parents made a birthday cake with red frosting and a swastika on top for their 5 year olds birthday party.
Don't blame the kid, blame the parents. Wow, they are all so privileged and sheltered to have such "easy" choices.
Don't blame the kid, blame the parents. Wow, they are all so privileged and sheltered to have such "easy" choices.
58
6 - This doesn't strike me as a hard question at all. The things we think should be safe, legal and rare include:
Every other kind of medical procedure. No one relishes coronary bypasses, for instance, and we would like to reduce their necessity by encouraging healthier lifestyles. So we would like them to be safe and legal, but also as rare as is possible.
Now, abortion is more discretionary than open hear surgery, and it is possible to argue that iti is fundamentally a bad thing in a way that it is not possible to argue against heart surgery. But in both cases, we're talking about a medical procedure that we think should be delivered safely and well if necessary but no more often than needed.
Every other kind of medical procedure. No one relishes coronary bypasses, for instance, and we would like to reduce their necessity by encouraging healthier lifestyles. So we would like them to be safe and legal, but also as rare as is possible.
Now, abortion is more discretionary than open hear surgery, and it is possible to argue that iti is fundamentally a bad thing in a way that it is not possible to argue against heart surgery. But in both cases, we're talking about a medical procedure that we think should be delivered safely and well if necessary but no more often than needed.
60
@44: What new life has been created at conception? None, really. There's a new germ line, and that's it. You can create a new germ line by dropping a retrovirus into a culture of stem cells, and they're still nowhere near being a person. It's not a new life until it can live outside of someone else. And if a woman CHOSE to get pregnant, there's very little chance she'd be getting an abortion. Someone sure ate a bowl of DERPflakes this fine morning...
I'd correct you on the whole rarity of surgery bit, but you're clearly a thundering buffoon determined to misunderstand anything I say, so I'll put it in terms you might recognize. In a perfect world, nobody would be absolved of their sins. Sure, it's good for someone to repent and be forgiven, but in a perfect world, there would be no sins committed to atone for.
I'd correct you on the whole rarity of surgery bit, but you're clearly a thundering buffoon determined to misunderstand anything I say, so I'll put it in terms you might recognize. In a perfect world, nobody would be absolved of their sins. Sure, it's good for someone to repent and be forgiven, but in a perfect world, there would be no sins committed to atone for.
61
@54: After making that kind of transition, doesn't it boggle the mind that so many adults never mature beyond the stage you were in when you had the anti-abortion stickers on your locker? I kind of went through the same thing, though not nearly to the extremes you did. It's just weird when I hear adults twice my age using the same simplistic logic I thought was valid when I was a teenager. The girl in the video still has a chance. Hopefully she won't become one of those adults who hasn't changed the way they think since they were her age.
63
@40- Surgery should be rare because people should be healthy. Would you like to have cancerous growths, malfunctioning organs, torn connective tissues, and/or broken bones regularly?
You can't tell the difference between a fetus and a human, that's your problem. Stay the hell out of a voting booth you ignorant jackass.
You can't tell the difference between a fetus and a human, that's your problem. Stay the hell out of a voting booth you ignorant jackass.
64
60
junior, are you sure you've taken any community college level biology?
"it can live outside of someone else" is not a requirement or defining characteristic of 'life'.
many many organisms live their entire lifespan "inside of someone else".
let's try this-
mom and dad are alive.
the are living humans.
they have a baby.
a living human baby.
a bouncing year old living human baby.
their living human baby is different from either parent,
it is not a piece out of dad's cheek or a blob of mom's tissue.
are you still with us?
when did baby start?
when did baby come into existence?
trace the path of 'life' from parents to baby.
please, college boy, tell us when human life begins.
(if there are any gaps in the chain of life please account for them.
does life spring spontaneously from little embryo Frankensteins?
do humans start out as some other species then morph into humans?
please explain it to us inferior less wealthy less educated mere mortals....)
junior, are you sure you've taken any community college level biology?
"it can live outside of someone else" is not a requirement or defining characteristic of 'life'.
many many organisms live their entire lifespan "inside of someone else".
let's try this-
mom and dad are alive.
the are living humans.
they have a baby.
a living human baby.
a bouncing year old living human baby.
their living human baby is different from either parent,
it is not a piece out of dad's cheek or a blob of mom's tissue.
are you still with us?
when did baby start?
when did baby come into existence?
trace the path of 'life' from parents to baby.
please, college boy, tell us when human life begins.
(if there are any gaps in the chain of life please account for them.
does life spring spontaneously from little embryo Frankensteins?
do humans start out as some other species then morph into humans?
please explain it to us inferior less wealthy less educated mere mortals....)
65
Re 61
I still think stealing other peoples stuff is bad. It's too bad I haven't matured beyond that. I still think that killing someone in anger is wrong. One day I might grow out of it. I still think lying to or about others is a bit dodgy. Gee, there are a lot of simplistic things I thought at 12 that I still think. Oh well, one day I might become a mature liberal and ditch morals and ethics completely.
It's odd that I have yet to hear my wife or any of our friends expecting a baby refer to 'our fetus' or 'my fetus.' These poor misguided souls don't know the proper terminology and uniformly, from the moment they know they are expecting a baby, call it a baby. I better punch my wife in the face next time she refers to a newly expectant life as a 'baby', right? I mean, she isn't the 12 year old girl liberals seem to enjoy as targets of rage. But there's the principle of the thing to uphold, damn it!
One day I might even mature to the point where calling a 12 year old child vulgar and disgusting names and suggesting physically assualting her is a good thing in my opinion! I mean, I'm sure you all casually refer to 12 year old girls you know as 'twat.' I just never learned this interesting social nicety. On second thoughts, anyone calling my 12 year old daughter something like that is themself courting a punch in the face. Sorry, I haven't matured enough to be a liberal, apparently.
@40
If you can't see the value of human life, please stay out of voting booths. I'll refrain from personal attack. I still haven't matured to the point of confusing politics with grounds for personal insults. Guess I never will grow up enough to be a liberal. Dang.
I still think stealing other peoples stuff is bad. It's too bad I haven't matured beyond that. I still think that killing someone in anger is wrong. One day I might grow out of it. I still think lying to or about others is a bit dodgy. Gee, there are a lot of simplistic things I thought at 12 that I still think. Oh well, one day I might become a mature liberal and ditch morals and ethics completely.
It's odd that I have yet to hear my wife or any of our friends expecting a baby refer to 'our fetus' or 'my fetus.' These poor misguided souls don't know the proper terminology and uniformly, from the moment they know they are expecting a baby, call it a baby. I better punch my wife in the face next time she refers to a newly expectant life as a 'baby', right? I mean, she isn't the 12 year old girl liberals seem to enjoy as targets of rage. But there's the principle of the thing to uphold, damn it!
One day I might even mature to the point where calling a 12 year old child vulgar and disgusting names and suggesting physically assualting her is a good thing in my opinion! I mean, I'm sure you all casually refer to 12 year old girls you know as 'twat.' I just never learned this interesting social nicety. On second thoughts, anyone calling my 12 year old daughter something like that is themself courting a punch in the face. Sorry, I haven't matured enough to be a liberal, apparently.
@40
If you can't see the value of human life, please stay out of voting booths. I'll refrain from personal attack. I still haven't matured to the point of confusing politics with grounds for personal insults. Guess I never will grow up enough to be a liberal. Dang.
66
FYI
EVERY woman has the right to choose. My 10 year old niece and both of my pre-pubescent or barely pubescent children understand how women become pregnant, and that there are ways to avoid a pregnancy. Given popular culture a parent has this conversation earlier and earlier with their children, as the question and the need arises. I seriously doubt that there is any appreciable population of child bearing age girls not fully aware of how to stop conception from happening. Choosing sex without contraceptives is choosing the possibility of pregnancy.
In a mining collapse we dig for trapped miners, regardless of whether we know them to be alive or not. It is one of the better human impulses, to save life at whatever cost or chance that it can be saved. You don't know, and I don't know, at which point a collection of cells becomes life. Venomlash would like it to be the point of birth. Fine. So no more medical care for difficult pregnancies, right? After all, we aren't saving life, but a meaningless collection of cells with such care. No more delivering children by C section, either. If the little bastard couldn't be born on his or her own they don't deserve to be born at all, right?
The liberal perspective on this is monstrous. There simply isn't another word for it. You would sacrifice a probable life (most pregnancies end in a birth, so probabilities are that each pregnancy will become life) for the convenience of a mother? That is just evil. Put terms like privacy and right to choose around it to muffle and hide the evil all you like. In the deepest parts of your hearts you know it to be evil nonetheless.
EVERY woman has the right to choose. My 10 year old niece and both of my pre-pubescent or barely pubescent children understand how women become pregnant, and that there are ways to avoid a pregnancy. Given popular culture a parent has this conversation earlier and earlier with their children, as the question and the need arises. I seriously doubt that there is any appreciable population of child bearing age girls not fully aware of how to stop conception from happening. Choosing sex without contraceptives is choosing the possibility of pregnancy.
In a mining collapse we dig for trapped miners, regardless of whether we know them to be alive or not. It is one of the better human impulses, to save life at whatever cost or chance that it can be saved. You don't know, and I don't know, at which point a collection of cells becomes life. Venomlash would like it to be the point of birth. Fine. So no more medical care for difficult pregnancies, right? After all, we aren't saving life, but a meaningless collection of cells with such care. No more delivering children by C section, either. If the little bastard couldn't be born on his or her own they don't deserve to be born at all, right?
The liberal perspective on this is monstrous. There simply isn't another word for it. You would sacrifice a probable life (most pregnancies end in a birth, so probabilities are that each pregnancy will become life) for the convenience of a mother? That is just evil. Put terms like privacy and right to choose around it to muffle and hide the evil all you like. In the deepest parts of your hearts you know it to be evil nonetheless.
67
@65 That's not what I meant, although I can see how you would infer that from what I said. I meant it in a more general sense -- that when someone is 12 years old, they're more likely to see the world in black-and-white terms and fail to realize that it is extremely unusual for there to be a 100% right and 100% wrong action that can be universally applied to any situation (check out any discussion of Kant's categorical imperative for some interesting ideas about this). Of course killing someone in anger is wrong. Of course lying to/about others is wrong...but in that one, there are shades of grey. For instance, would it be wrong to lie to a friend's abusive spouse about their whereabouts? In that case, most people would say it's OK to lie, because the end result of lying is better than the end result of telling the truth (see 'utilitarianism'). Many 12-year-olds aren't mature enough to recognize that there's usually a spectrum of right and wrong, but most of them mature beyond the worldview that morality is black and white, 100% right and 100% wrong and nothing in between. However, some don't, and they become adults who think like 12 year olds, in that sense, and it's weird to talk to them. THAT was my point. Also, I never equated liberal with mature and conservative with immature. Maturity and immaturity know no political boundaries.
For what it's worth, here's my opinion on abortion: I see as a necessary evil. On one hand, when it comes down to it, I have a hard time seeing an embryo or fetus as a non-human. I have never been pregnant so of course I can't say with certainty, but if I were to get pregnant and didn't want to be, I could never bring myself to have an abortion. HOWEVER, I also do not believe in forcing others to act from a particular moral position for issues with so many nuances to consider. I would have a hard time telling a rape victim that they have to keep the product of the rape inside of them. I would also have a hard time telling someone who DID see their weeks-old embryo as a non-human that they are a murderer if they get an abortion, just because *I* believe it's a human. Also, there are enough people who do NOT see an embryo as a human to make the comparison to murder of a non-embryo/non-fetus (that is, someone who's been born) a moot point. Laws that are based on morality are generally in effect because a large majority of society has the same opinion on it. Yes, some people think it's OK to shoot and kill others, but they are few and far between enough that we can have laws against it. But there are too many people whose beliefs differ from those who do not believe in abortion to claim that it is universally bad. So, I believe that it should be available when necessary, but the most important thing we need to do as a society is make it necessary as rarely as possible. That is, make sure people are educated about birth control, and make it easily available to people who can't afford the retail price. People are going to have sex, they always have and always will, so the goal should be to avoid having to make the abortion choice in the first place by preventing pregnancy if it is not wanted.
More...
For what it's worth, here's my opinion on abortion: I see as a necessary evil. On one hand, when it comes down to it, I have a hard time seeing an embryo or fetus as a non-human. I have never been pregnant so of course I can't say with certainty, but if I were to get pregnant and didn't want to be, I could never bring myself to have an abortion. HOWEVER, I also do not believe in forcing others to act from a particular moral position for issues with so many nuances to consider. I would have a hard time telling a rape victim that they have to keep the product of the rape inside of them. I would also have a hard time telling someone who DID see their weeks-old embryo as a non-human that they are a murderer if they get an abortion, just because *I* believe it's a human. Also, there are enough people who do NOT see an embryo as a human to make the comparison to murder of a non-embryo/non-fetus (that is, someone who's been born) a moot point. Laws that are based on morality are generally in effect because a large majority of society has the same opinion on it. Yes, some people think it's OK to shoot and kill others, but they are few and far between enough that we can have laws against it. But there are too many people whose beliefs differ from those who do not believe in abortion to claim that it is universally bad. So, I believe that it should be available when necessary, but the most important thing we need to do as a society is make it necessary as rarely as possible. That is, make sure people are educated about birth control, and make it easily available to people who can't afford the retail price. People are going to have sex, they always have and always will, so the goal should be to avoid having to make the abortion choice in the first place by preventing pregnancy if it is not wanted.
68
@64: One, I'm not defining life. I'm delineating the boundary between "part of the mother" and "autonomous". You're missing the point here.
As to your point that a zygote is genetically unique, I already addressed the issue of creating a new germ line. I can take stem cells from my body, treat them with a retrovirus to deliver a new gene into their genotype, and finish up with a wholly new germ line distinct from my own. That's still not an autonomous living organism. You're slow on the concept.
If you knew Jack Diddly Squat about biology, you'd know that the cells involved are living before conception even takes place. The sperm and egg cells are alive, genetically human (if haploid rather than diploid), and by no means whatsoever their own beings. Living human cells do not imply a living human being.
@66: You're an idiot, Seattleblues. The cells are alive, and are direct descendants of LUCA, from the beginning. As I explained to Alleged, that does not make them their own being.
If an embryo is not its own life, there is still reason to care for it, if it is wanted. We're not promoting abortion; we're just saying that it should be the woman's right to care for or destroy an embryo in her uterus. Also, I've not been saying that a fetus is its own being once it is born; it counts as a separate life once it is capable of living outside the mother. A sufficiently late-term or full-term fetus therefore SHOULD be delivered by Caesarean section if necessary. You'll need to actually read what I'm writing if you want to comment on it.
As soon as you start talking about "probable life", you jump the shark. If we should ban abortion because an embryo could otherwise grow into a baby, should we also ban condoms? A spermatozoon, if not blocked by a layer of latex, could fertilize an ovum and the resulting zygote could grow to term and become a baby. Should we ban all forms of birth control, you fascist?
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As to your point that a zygote is genetically unique, I already addressed the issue of creating a new germ line. I can take stem cells from my body, treat them with a retrovirus to deliver a new gene into their genotype, and finish up with a wholly new germ line distinct from my own. That's still not an autonomous living organism. You're slow on the concept.
If you knew Jack Diddly Squat about biology, you'd know that the cells involved are living before conception even takes place. The sperm and egg cells are alive, genetically human (if haploid rather than diploid), and by no means whatsoever their own beings. Living human cells do not imply a living human being.
@66: You're an idiot, Seattleblues. The cells are alive, and are direct descendants of LUCA, from the beginning. As I explained to Alleged, that does not make them their own being.
If an embryo is not its own life, there is still reason to care for it, if it is wanted. We're not promoting abortion; we're just saying that it should be the woman's right to care for or destroy an embryo in her uterus. Also, I've not been saying that a fetus is its own being once it is born; it counts as a separate life once it is capable of living outside the mother. A sufficiently late-term or full-term fetus therefore SHOULD be delivered by Caesarean section if necessary. You'll need to actually read what I'm writing if you want to comment on it.
As soon as you start talking about "probable life", you jump the shark. If we should ban abortion because an embryo could otherwise grow into a baby, should we also ban condoms? A spermatozoon, if not blocked by a layer of latex, could fertilize an ovum and the resulting zygote could grow to term and become a baby. Should we ban all forms of birth control, you fascist?
69
VL
There is no probability that any given egg will be fertilized or that it would be by any particular sperm. Birth control is an entirely separate matter. And don't bother with the insults, boy. Keep them for fellow students who value your opinion.
So your moral default position is to care for a fetus that is wanted, and destroy one that isn't. This has nothing to do with the unborn fetus, and everything to do with the convenience of the mother. Conditional on her state of mind a fetus is either a parasitic organism or a future human being. At some mystical and undefined time the fetus acquires a right to live, once he or she can live without the mother. You don't bother to discuss the heroic medical care given naturally premature babies, and whether these children are 'viable.' You don't bother to define what makes a fetus viable and therefore human or non-viable and therefore disposable. No, you just go by the tortuous reasoning of Roe, not delivered or defined by doctors or scientists but by lawyers.
Wow. Please don't go into finance. And for Gods sake stay out of politics. With relative morality like that you might start a whole new recession ala 2008 on your own bat. In politics you could justify any atrocity with your kind of reasoning and I don't even want to think of the potential damage.
There is no probability that any given egg will be fertilized or that it would be by any particular sperm. Birth control is an entirely separate matter. And don't bother with the insults, boy. Keep them for fellow students who value your opinion.
So your moral default position is to care for a fetus that is wanted, and destroy one that isn't. This has nothing to do with the unborn fetus, and everything to do with the convenience of the mother. Conditional on her state of mind a fetus is either a parasitic organism or a future human being. At some mystical and undefined time the fetus acquires a right to live, once he or she can live without the mother. You don't bother to discuss the heroic medical care given naturally premature babies, and whether these children are 'viable.' You don't bother to define what makes a fetus viable and therefore human or non-viable and therefore disposable. No, you just go by the tortuous reasoning of Roe, not delivered or defined by doctors or scientists but by lawyers.
Wow. Please don't go into finance. And for Gods sake stay out of politics. With relative morality like that you might start a whole new recession ala 2008 on your own bat. In politics you could justify any atrocity with your kind of reasoning and I don't even want to think of the potential damage.
70
@67
I too find the excesses and absolutes of my 12 year old self either amusing or embarrassing depending on which excesses. Come to that, I find my 18 and 25 year old selves embarrassing at times. Watching my kids go through the same thing is alternately amusing and frustrating. Fortunately, mostly it's amusing.
I just find that in practice the gray areas can become too easy an excuse to not draw any moral lines at all for too many folks. If this was easy universities wouldn't have whole courses and so many books wouldn't have been dedicated to ethics, the field of study that is supposed to help thinking adults find those lines. I over reacted to you though, and aplogize for any offense, which certainly wasn't intended.
I too find the excesses and absolutes of my 12 year old self either amusing or embarrassing depending on which excesses. Come to that, I find my 18 and 25 year old selves embarrassing at times. Watching my kids go through the same thing is alternately amusing and frustrating. Fortunately, mostly it's amusing.
I just find that in practice the gray areas can become too easy an excuse to not draw any moral lines at all for too many folks. If this was easy universities wouldn't have whole courses and so many books wouldn't have been dedicated to ethics, the field of study that is supposed to help thinking adults find those lines. I over reacted to you though, and aplogize for any offense, which certainly wasn't intended.
71
Making ethical choices is very hard. And, disinclined to believe that either one's political party or religious affiliation or lack of one assures that the most ethical or moral choice is made. The greatest source of human suffering is human injustice, and history shows that we all have dirty hands. Of course, we all want to point our fingers and rationalize our actions and any group we affiliate ourselves with as benign. We tend to believe what we want to believe, and we will interpret things with a bias to maintain our beliefs. We also tend to think our opinions are fact, and ignore all contravening evidence that disputes our opinion.
So here is an ethical quandry that presently under discussion in Finland, if it has been resolved I'm unaware of it. It is interesting in the fact that it invoves secular, religious, consevative, liberal, majority, and minority. To keep things brief, Finland has a Somali population that it has offered asylum to. Finland has universal healthcare. Somali families wish to have their daughters circumcised for religious reasons. Finland's government and the majority of the people in Finland find the practice of circumcising little girls as inhumane, cruel, dangerous, unethical, and immoral. Finland refused and explained. Little girls began to arrive at the hospital severely infected and dying. Now Finland must decide if it will provide Somali families the services they seek, perform a surgery which they believe to be unethical, immoral, and inhumane in the safest way possible, since they have failed to convince through education as to why female circumcision is harmful. State paid for genital mutilation or back alley, is how I heard it summed up. Either way it appears that little girls will suffer, but state paid may lessen the suffering, chance of infection, and chance of death than back alley does. But, in doing so it will mean going against their own moral and ethical position.
More...
So here is an ethical quandry that presently under discussion in Finland, if it has been resolved I'm unaware of it. It is interesting in the fact that it invoves secular, religious, consevative, liberal, majority, and minority. To keep things brief, Finland has a Somali population that it has offered asylum to. Finland has universal healthcare. Somali families wish to have their daughters circumcised for religious reasons. Finland's government and the majority of the people in Finland find the practice of circumcising little girls as inhumane, cruel, dangerous, unethical, and immoral. Finland refused and explained. Little girls began to arrive at the hospital severely infected and dying. Now Finland must decide if it will provide Somali families the services they seek, perform a surgery which they believe to be unethical, immoral, and inhumane in the safest way possible, since they have failed to convince through education as to why female circumcision is harmful. State paid for genital mutilation or back alley, is how I heard it summed up. Either way it appears that little girls will suffer, but state paid may lessen the suffering, chance of infection, and chance of death than back alley does. But, in doing so it will mean going against their own moral and ethical position.
74
Thank you @73!!! Who the f.. are her parents? This kid (key word, kid) has been so influenced by her parents that she does not think for herself. Pro choice is about making choices. DUH!!! Its not about whether or not you agree with abortion. We as Americans have the right to choose!!!!!!!! I don't think I could ever have an abortion, but I want the RIGHT to choose. This is America for shits sake. She scares me.
75
68
So you're punting?
not surprised.
human life starts at conception.
how that life is treated is not related to the humanity of the new life-
it depends on the humanity (or lacvk thereof) of the caregivers..
caring loving ethical parents cherish, nurture and protect the new life.
calloused selfish murderous adults slaughter their offspring without remorse.
the weak and vulnerable have always been victims of evil people.
sometimes the evil is magnified by the perpetrators trying to layer a sheen of legality and morality over their crimes.
Slavery- Legal. defended from the Southern pulpits..
Holocaust- Laws passed to make it all tidy and legal.
. . . . . . . . Justified through Nazi racial superiority doctrines.
Abortion- Legal. Excused with mumbojumbo about 'autonomy'
. . . . . . . . Perversly described as a matter of 'rights'.
. . . . . . . . . (the Strong and Powerful get Rights.The Weak and Helpless get Killed...)
always legal.
always explained so neatly.
"Religion".....
"Science"....
always so monstrously wrong.
So you're punting?
not surprised.
human life starts at conception.
how that life is treated is not related to the humanity of the new life-
it depends on the humanity (or lacvk thereof) of the caregivers..
caring loving ethical parents cherish, nurture and protect the new life.
calloused selfish murderous adults slaughter their offspring without remorse.
the weak and vulnerable have always been victims of evil people.
sometimes the evil is magnified by the perpetrators trying to layer a sheen of legality and morality over their crimes.
Slavery- Legal. defended from the Southern pulpits..
Holocaust- Laws passed to make it all tidy and legal.
. . . . . . . . Justified through Nazi racial superiority doctrines.
Abortion- Legal. Excused with mumbojumbo about 'autonomy'
. . . . . . . . Perversly described as a matter of 'rights'.
. . . . . . . . . (the Strong and Powerful get Rights.The Weak and Helpless get Killed...)
always legal.
always explained so neatly.
"Religion".....
"Science"....
always so monstrously wrong.
76
What's annoying is people like this (or rather people that give credence in what this "child" has to say) tend to think life and choices are so simple, even a 12 year old can tell you what you should do.
77
I'd also like to ask the question, why is it that these "Pro-Birth" (I won't call them Pro-life, because frankly they could give two shits about what happens to the child once it's born) act as though a woman, when given the right to choose, will have 20 or 30 abortions in their lifetime?
I don't know the exact statistics, but I find it hard to believe that the majority of women, given the right to choose, would have multiple abortions in their lifetime. Sure, their might be some, but they are the exception, not the rule. And, though I'm a gay male so I might not know the logistics to all of this, but do these pro-birth people also want to outlaw IUD's? Are they not basically a monthly abortion - technically?
Just like the marriage issue for same-sex. You don't want a same-sex marriage, then don't have one. You don't want an abortion, then don't have one. But frankly, keep your so-called "moral superiority" (which I am highly suspicious of YOUR belief in its superiority) out of my life.
I don't know the exact statistics, but I find it hard to believe that the majority of women, given the right to choose, would have multiple abortions in their lifetime. Sure, their might be some, but they are the exception, not the rule. And, though I'm a gay male so I might not know the logistics to all of this, but do these pro-birth people also want to outlaw IUD's? Are they not basically a monthly abortion - technically?
Just like the marriage issue for same-sex. You don't want a same-sex marriage, then don't have one. You don't want an abortion, then don't have one. But frankly, keep your so-called "moral superiority" (which I am highly suspicious of YOUR belief in its superiority) out of my life.
78
all this vitriole over a 12 year old...several people have said it already but ill say it again. she's a little young and inexperienced to have developed a nuanced sense of right and wrong. i was "pro-life" at that age too- and no my parents were not batshit crazy. infact my parents are pro-choice. but they did send me to a catholic school for the sake of keeping me out of a shitty ass gang activity infested seattle public school. i grew up. there's a good chance she will too.
79
I'm pro-abortion because abortion kills hundreds of thousands of blacks every single year. Can you imagine how much worse the already shitty black crime rate would be if all those future black criminals had been allowed to live? Keep abortion legal!
80
"I'd also like to ask the question, why is it that these "Pro-Birth" (I won't call them Pro-life, because frankly they could give two shits about what happens to the child once it's born) act as though a woman, when given the right to choose, will have 20 or 30 abortions in their lifetime? "
An amazing talent you have, to divine the motives of every single person who thinks that perhaps murdering the unborn isn't such a good idea.
FYI, moral superiority has nothing to do with it. You many disagree with the conclusion, but those who oppose abortion almost uniformly do so on the premise that the 'fetus' is in fact a human baby deserving of the chance to live. These folks believe this even if the baby grows up to be a liberal.
And in this light, the frequency of abortion, or whether it is used as birth control isn't really the issue. One abortion or 30 is beside the point , which is that the objective is the termination of a human life.
As I've written before, the evidence is hardly compelling as to the point at which life begins. What is certain is that nearly every pregnancy which follows the natural course will result in a human being newly born. Comparisons to cancer or other surgeries miss this point. Last I checked, lung cancer doesn't do this. Nor do ulcers or any other condition for which a person might seek surgery or other medical procedures.
Again, I understand that you don't agree that a fetus is in fact a human being. But at least argue the terms that are in play, not the talking points of NARAL.
An amazing talent you have, to divine the motives of every single person who thinks that perhaps murdering the unborn isn't such a good idea.
FYI, moral superiority has nothing to do with it. You many disagree with the conclusion, but those who oppose abortion almost uniformly do so on the premise that the 'fetus' is in fact a human baby deserving of the chance to live. These folks believe this even if the baby grows up to be a liberal.
And in this light, the frequency of abortion, or whether it is used as birth control isn't really the issue. One abortion or 30 is beside the point , which is that the objective is the termination of a human life.
As I've written before, the evidence is hardly compelling as to the point at which life begins. What is certain is that nearly every pregnancy which follows the natural course will result in a human being newly born. Comparisons to cancer or other surgeries miss this point. Last I checked, lung cancer doesn't do this. Nor do ulcers or any other condition for which a person might seek surgery or other medical procedures.
Again, I understand that you don't agree that a fetus is in fact a human being. But at least argue the terms that are in play, not the talking points of NARAL.
81
@80 If I get pregnant and find out within a couple weeks that I have cancer and need to have chemo to live, are you going to make me carry the baby to term? Are you going to make my medical and life decisions for me? You're full of belabored points about the meaning of life, but what are you going to do when it comes to reality?
82
@80: 20-25% of pregnancies end in miscarriage. That is also a "natural couse".
Moral relativism is not a sin. I generally don't lie to people, but I might to spare their feelings. I don't punch people, but I might in self-defence. I don't kill people, even in the military (pacifist) and I probably wouldn't in self-defence, because I don't know how and wouldn't have the guts. I don't steal, but I would if I were homeless and starving. I think the death penalty is morally wrong.
I can imagine many scenarios in which I would adapt my morals. I think that fetuses are less important than already-born babies. I think that women who don't want children shouldn't have them. I think it's a greater sin to bring an unwanted child into this world than to abort a clot of cells. I think the issue becomes grayer the later the pregnancy gets. I think men, especially politicians, should stay out of this decision making process. I don't think it's your business what I do with my uterus.
Moral relativism is not a sin. I generally don't lie to people, but I might to spare their feelings. I don't punch people, but I might in self-defence. I don't kill people, even in the military (pacifist) and I probably wouldn't in self-defence, because I don't know how and wouldn't have the guts. I don't steal, but I would if I were homeless and starving. I think the death penalty is morally wrong.
I can imagine many scenarios in which I would adapt my morals. I think that fetuses are less important than already-born babies. I think that women who don't want children shouldn't have them. I think it's a greater sin to bring an unwanted child into this world than to abort a clot of cells. I think the issue becomes grayer the later the pregnancy gets. I think men, especially politicians, should stay out of this decision making process. I don't think it's your business what I do with my uterus.
83
She's a smart cookie...but likely sheltered. It's easy to have empathy for a tiny unborn baby, and more difficult to have empathy for someone who has been abused or abandoned, or who has made stupid sex decisions but is too poor to raise a child, or who is not mentally well enough to have a child. As other people have mentioned, life is more nuanced than this well-meaning child has experienced. And hopefully she will never have to experience for herself such dark and lonely decisions. But I hope that her passion for the rights of others will leave her heart open to grow empathy over time for ALL people. And if she is Christian, all the better- because that is the Christ-like way.
84
@66 Actually there are few things I consider more evil (and monstrous) than the presumption that it is perfectly acceptable for laws to extend into the interior of a person's body.
85
"I want to punch a twelve year old girl in the face because of abortion! Yes, I am an adult!" -Steven Humphrey, writer.
Can someone please dispense a prescription for chill pills please?
Can someone please dispense a prescription for chill pills please?
86
@84
Ah. So let's abolish all federal or local regulation over the medical profession. Obamacare has to go, since it similarly regulates health care. The FDA regulates what I can eat, or what medications I can take, so it must go as well. The DEA and ATF tell me that I can't smoke, ingest or inject certain substances, so let's get rid of them. We can't enforce CPS regulations, since whether a parent feeds their kids is regulation about the interior of another persons body. A person going to work in a cafeteria or hospital with Hepatitas has every right, since the disease is inside their body.
Didn't really think that statement out that carefully, did you?
The general premise in the United States is that I have the right to do as I see fit until it affects others. At that point we communally agree that the law may have a role, if that role is consistent with Constitutional requirements. Your worry about that changing is probably not worth your time. Roe is what is called settled law, and the kind of legal uphill battle required to change that is extremely unlikely.
So please, continue to enjoy the prospect of one and half million annual infanticides in the United States. Heck, with any luck you folks can start in on live babies who aren't convenient to their mothers soon! Maybe when the terrible twos set in rather than dealing with it you can skewer and roast the little brat! And don't get me started on adolescence, gas them instead of finding ways to parent them. After all, it's all about the convenience and wants of the parents in your view.
Ah. So let's abolish all federal or local regulation over the medical profession. Obamacare has to go, since it similarly regulates health care. The FDA regulates what I can eat, or what medications I can take, so it must go as well. The DEA and ATF tell me that I can't smoke, ingest or inject certain substances, so let's get rid of them. We can't enforce CPS regulations, since whether a parent feeds their kids is regulation about the interior of another persons body. A person going to work in a cafeteria or hospital with Hepatitas has every right, since the disease is inside their body.
Didn't really think that statement out that carefully, did you?
The general premise in the United States is that I have the right to do as I see fit until it affects others. At that point we communally agree that the law may have a role, if that role is consistent with Constitutional requirements. Your worry about that changing is probably not worth your time. Roe is what is called settled law, and the kind of legal uphill battle required to change that is extremely unlikely.
So please, continue to enjoy the prospect of one and half million annual infanticides in the United States. Heck, with any luck you folks can start in on live babies who aren't convenient to their mothers soon! Maybe when the terrible twos set in rather than dealing with it you can skewer and roast the little brat! And don't get me started on adolescence, gas them instead of finding ways to parent them. After all, it's all about the convenience and wants of the parents in your view.
87
Uh I think perhaps someone else here might not be thinking things through too clearly. Dictating to a woman that she must carry a fetus to term because of the particular fairy tale you believe in is just like preventing corporations from selling unsafe products? Yep, some real sharp thinking there.
88
Who gives a damn what some little kid thinks? It's been established that women and their doctors are the only people who should be involved. For forty years sexists and religionists have been trying to chip away at reproductive freedom and pro choice public opinion. to the anti abortion crowd: shut the fuck up and chop your penises off while you're at it, you filthy fascist swine!
89
Seriously? To even think of hurting a 12-year old child, much less joke about it or write about it... good grief, what's wrong with you all? She is articulate, and she seems earnest. Her mistake isn't moral - it's scientific: she imparts a sentient mind/being/soul to a biological body which simply does not have one. "Doing unto others as we would have them do unto us" presumes that "others" have minds that exist, with wills of their own. Factually/biologically speaking, a fetus does not have a mind or a will. Killing a prenatal, developing human body does not go against its "will" any more than killing a plant goes against the "will" of the plant or throwing a stone goes against the "will" of the stone.
91
Here is what tipped me into the prochioce column: in societies where abortion is illegal, abortion rates remain the same as in legal states. Deaths of women rise sharply. banning abortion doesn't save babies, it kills women.
93
"So please, continue to enjoy the prospect of one and half million annual infanticides in the United States. Heck, with any luck you folks can start in on live babies who aren't convenient to their mothers soon! Maybe when the terrible twos set in rather than dealing with it you can skewer and roast the little brat! And don't get me started on adolescence, gas them instead of finding ways to parent them. After all, it's all about the convenience and wants of the parents in your view."
Stop being so fucking dramatic. Maybe you should go skewer yourself.
Stop being so fucking dramatic. Maybe you should go skewer yourself.
94
This article made me think of this video:
http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleI…
Chilean Woman Carrying Brainless Fetus Seeks Permission to Abort
SANTIAGO – A Chilean woman 36 weeks pregnant has appealed to a court for authorization to undergo a therapeutic abortion after learning that her baby has no brain.
Claudia Pizarro, who also suffers from cancer of the uterus, presented an appeal for protection of her constitutional rights in the courts on grounds that her fetus, which in any case will not be able to live outside the womb, keeps her from having her illness treated.
“I’m not asking that they kill my child. My daughter will die at birth. I’m pleading for my life, so I can seek treatment as soon as possible,” the woman, who has an 11-year-old son, told Efe.
If the court accepts the appeal to protect her constitutional rights, Claudia intends to donate the baby’s organs “to help other children who do have a chance to live,” she told reporters.
Chile is one of the few countries in the world that ban therapeutic abortion, but two bills now before Congress seek to decriminalize the procedure. EFE
but yaknow, it's just like picking icecream!
http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleI…
Chilean Woman Carrying Brainless Fetus Seeks Permission to Abort
SANTIAGO – A Chilean woman 36 weeks pregnant has appealed to a court for authorization to undergo a therapeutic abortion after learning that her baby has no brain.
Claudia Pizarro, who also suffers from cancer of the uterus, presented an appeal for protection of her constitutional rights in the courts on grounds that her fetus, which in any case will not be able to live outside the womb, keeps her from having her illness treated.
“I’m not asking that they kill my child. My daughter will die at birth. I’m pleading for my life, so I can seek treatment as soon as possible,” the woman, who has an 11-year-old son, told Efe.
If the court accepts the appeal to protect her constitutional rights, Claudia intends to donate the baby’s organs “to help other children who do have a chance to live,” she told reporters.
Chile is one of the few countries in the world that ban therapeutic abortion, but two bills now before Congress seek to decriminalize the procedure. EFE
but yaknow, it's just like picking icecream!
95
Hi. I know this is really. Really. Super late (like two years late) but I know this girl and she is not someone who really deserves a punch to the face. She is surrounded by very conservative Christians and has been her own life. This is something she truly believes, and though she is wrong, you can hardly say punching this young girl is right. Thanks.
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