Slog
News & ArtsTuesday, November 23, 2010
Chow Conservatives Are Outbreeding Liberals
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 11:45 AM
But conservatives are eating themselves to death... so hopefully everything will balance out in the end.
1
Ok, so, first, that was disgusting.
Second, was there some sort of study I missed about liberals having less kids? From my own experience, I always suspected that the less educated had more kids but never saw any real evidence.
Second, was there some sort of study I missed about liberals having less kids? From my own experience, I always suspected that the less educated had more kids but never saw any real evidence.
2
Hi Dan. You might have gotten tipped on this.
From the incredibly awesome folks at Pixar, it gets better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a4MR8oI_…
From the incredibly awesome folks at Pixar, it gets better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a4MR8oI_…
5
@4. Oh fudge. Okay, never mind.
I suppose it's a great thing that there are so many of the "It Gets Better" videos that you tend to lose track of them all.
I suppose it's a great thing that there are so many of the "It Gets Better" videos that you tend to lose track of them all.
6
Most conservative women - who voted in the mid-terms - are definitely NOT breeding.
They're too old for that.
Even conservative men aren't doing as well, although their practice of divorcing their wives and marrying a younger one to have more kids with does continue.
Their ideas are dead and disproven, anyway.
They're too old for that.
Even conservative men aren't doing as well, although their practice of divorcing their wives and marrying a younger one to have more kids with does continue.
Their ideas are dead and disproven, anyway.
9
@3 Get back to us when all three turn out raging liberals, too. Results have to be reproducible, yanno!
10
@3 Four, sorry. I think I got distracted by your comment number.
@1. Fewer kids. I dunno -- I've seen studies that show that intelligence is not correlated with intelligence in parents. Although poverty would be a factor though more in terms of limiting opportunities for good and/or extended education than intelligence itself. Widespread, freely available quality education would probably do more to destroy conservative bastions. Look at how hard the conservatives work to destroy public education.
@1. Fewer kids. I dunno -- I've seen studies that show that intelligence is not correlated with intelligence in parents. Although poverty would be a factor though more in terms of limiting opportunities for good and/or extended education than intelligence itself. Widespread, freely available quality education would probably do more to destroy conservative bastions. Look at how hard the conservatives work to destroy public education.
11
Good question @7. I've often wondered this too. Generally I tended to assume that say 95% children of liberal parents grow up to be liberal-minded, while ~60% children of conservative parents grow up tending to be conservative. (At least 40% of people can think for themselves right?)
Until recently I had never met anyone who grew up in a liberal household but turned out conservative. They do exist apparently, but I suspect their numbers are few.
/anecdotal
Until recently I had never met anyone who grew up in a liberal household but turned out conservative. They do exist apparently, but I suspect their numbers are few.
/anecdotal
12
@11,
I bet most of that 40 percent is women. Women, as the primary caregivers of children and elderly family members, are more vulnerable to shitty things happening and are more eager for social services. Then there's the issue of reproductive rights.
@10,
Poor people are more likely to vote Democratic.
I bet most of that 40 percent is women. Women, as the primary caregivers of children and elderly family members, are more vulnerable to shitty things happening and are more eager for social services. Then there's the issue of reproductive rights.
@10,
Poor people are more likely to vote Democratic.
13
Don't forget the steady attrition from reds to blues that many youngsters make when they grow up and move to cities to go to college or get jobs, since both are lacking in the reddest areas.
15
@12 I've noticed that people who are lower-income but not necessarily impoverished (to the point of relying on government-provided social services) seem more vulnerable to anti-tax conservative rhetoric. That's all anecdotal, of course, but I saw it a lot this past election cycle. Not quite poor enough to need gov't help but not quite financially stable enough to be OK with funding gov't help - you see a lot of people like that in this day and age, in this economy.
16
@9: "reproducible". I see what you did there.
But yeah, point taken. Kids find ways of rebelling ...
But yeah, point taken. Kids find ways of rebelling ...
17
Conservatives' first or second born kids turn out pretty conservative. But kids born third through eighteenth (as the case may be) are increasingly likely to find the status quo unbearable and work the rest of their lives to make the world better or at least different. And when kids born third or later come of age, they are less and less likely to find an inheritance, a nepotistic job, or other largesse from the oligarchy waiting for them. So they move to a city, with an open mind, and try something new. And they don't feel they owe the existing power structure anything because it didn't give them anything.
This is why civilization has been progressing instead of regressing for the last 10,000 years or so.
This is why civilization has been progressing instead of regressing for the last 10,000 years or so.
18
Fun to speculate.
@12 -- true enough tho there seems to be a gray area where people who *think* of themselves as being more affluent than they are vote against their better (actual) interests...
@16 *grin*
@17 Huh. Then by that logic, the trend should go more conservative, the more the family has trended closer to 2 kids than 3+...
@12 -- true enough tho there seems to be a gray area where people who *think* of themselves as being more affluent than they are vote against their better (actual) interests...
@16 *grin*
@17 Huh. Then by that logic, the trend should go more conservative, the more the family has trended closer to 2 kids than 3+...
20
If we're citing anecdotal evidence, I haven't noticed men to be more conservative to women. We could talk ourselves in circles as to why that may or may not be, but for every over-generalization for feminine qualities being more conducive to liberal social causes, there's a counter generalization of a maternal predilection for a less-than-tolerant perception of public welfare policies.
Parent's that define themselves as conservative or liberal have the same chances of raising children well or poorly, just as the overwhelmingly socially conservative parent's of the Boomers did 50 years ago, where other factors like probably access to education and media turned things a little more toward the liberal.
Parent's that define themselves as conservative or liberal have the same chances of raising children well or poorly, just as the overwhelmingly socially conservative parent's of the Boomers did 50 years ago, where other factors like probably access to education and media turned things a little more toward the liberal.
22
@20,
The only reliable Republican voting bloc is white men. Women are much less likely to be conservative, Palin, O'Donnell, and the other crazies notwithstanding.
The only reliable Republican voting bloc is white men. Women are much less likely to be conservative, Palin, O'Donnell, and the other crazies notwithstanding.
23
@20,
And I'm basing this on statistics, not anecdotal evidence. Your anecdotes come from living in wealthy liberal enclaves where most people (male and female) are liberal, and the few conservatives are insanely wealthy -- leading to a close to equal breakdown in genders; rich women are just as spoiled and selfish as rich men.
And I'm basing this on statistics, not anecdotal evidence. Your anecdotes come from living in wealthy liberal enclaves where most people (male and female) are liberal, and the few conservatives are insanely wealthy -- leading to a close to equal breakdown in genders; rich women are just as spoiled and selfish as rich men.
24
I also suspect (and also have zero evidence to support) that conservatives are more frequently killed in "Darwin-award" type deaths than liberals.
25
@23 - You know, halfway through typing that, I probably was getting a little off track about what the big picture aspects, a.k.a., voting, characteristics of liberals and conservatives are, and confusing them with my own experiences—which of course take place mostly in wealthy enclaves of the US, but also in rural Washington and Oregon.
I suppose what I going with as basis was the number of times I was caught by surprise by homophobic remarks, or lock-em-up-and-throw-away-the-key type shit, things I associate with the Right, coming more often from women. This is meaningless, of course, because there's no science in the random cross-section of women that I've met, or overheard, or known, and there's even less science in exactly why I remembered the episodes I did.
In other words, don't listen to me. I've lived here long enough to where conservative vs. liberal isn't even an issue, just crazy vs. regular.
I suppose what I going with as basis was the number of times I was caught by surprise by homophobic remarks, or lock-em-up-and-throw-away-the-key type shit, things I associate with the Right, coming more often from women. This is meaningless, of course, because there's no science in the random cross-section of women that I've met, or overheard, or known, and there's even less science in exactly why I remembered the episodes I did.
In other words, don't listen to me. I've lived here long enough to where conservative vs. liberal isn't even an issue, just crazy vs. regular.
26
DUH. They believe contraceptives make Jeebus angry, think abstinence-only sex education is totally effective, and slut shame women who consider abortion. Of COURSE they're outbreeding us.
27
@25,
I have to agree that some of the most breathtaking bigoted shit I've ever heard came from conservative women, very much in the same mold as Palin, Bachmann, et al. Maybe there's something about a woman being crazy enough to vote against their own interests that she has no filter for the shit she spews. Also, in my experience, women like that hate other women with a fiery passion, which explains the voting against their self-interest thing. Those women truly believe that bitches ain't shit.
However, the cliche about the wife canceling out her conservative husband's vote exists for a reason. Much of middle America is like that, I think.
I have to agree that some of the most breathtaking bigoted shit I've ever heard came from conservative women, very much in the same mold as Palin, Bachmann, et al. Maybe there's something about a woman being crazy enough to vote against their own interests that she has no filter for the shit she spews. Also, in my experience, women like that hate other women with a fiery passion, which explains the voting against their self-interest thing. Those women truly believe that bitches ain't shit.
However, the cliche about the wife canceling out her conservative husband's vote exists for a reason. Much of middle America is like that, I think.
29
Don't forget conversion, Dan! Most people follow in the beliefs of their parents ( I have fond memories of getting firmly redirected from my fifth grade teacher's moderate, bipartisan views by my dear, flaming-liberal mother) but sometimes real life experience, rebellion against mistreatment, or other effects redirect a child to the other side of the fence. Just because they outbreed us doesn't mean we can't outconvert them.
30
This is a very real problem. Some elements of the Christian Reich do in fact have an agenda of populating the country with as many knuckle-dragging little biggots as possible. Some proponents of this plan refer to it as the "Quiverfull" movement (picture hundreds of Duggar families througout the country). They want to literally fuck us out of existence. If you think there are way too many tea-baggers now, wait about a decade. BTW, with modern medical science we can keep obese people alive and breeding for way too long now.
31
@ 28
May I present the thought stream of a Catholic teen:
The short kilts on the girls at school are so hot I want to have premarital sex and use condoms and plan my pregnancies and sleep with the hot italian/spanish boys/girls I met at World Youth Day and WTF I can't be a priest and OMG my friend got touched by a priest and I HATE GETTING UP ON SUNDAYS *leaves church/becomes nominally catholic and only shows up on Christmas*
Happens 90% of the time.
May I present the thought stream of a Catholic teen:
The short kilts on the girls at school are so hot I want to have premarital sex and use condoms and plan my pregnancies and sleep with the hot italian/spanish boys/girls I met at World Youth Day and WTF I can't be a priest and OMG my friend got touched by a priest and I HATE GETTING UP ON SUNDAYS *leaves church/becomes nominally catholic and only shows up on Christmas*
Happens 90% of the time.
33
It's too bad that there's absolutely nothing we can do to better our communities and country than vote. Just too, too bad.
34
I'm a parent. This article seems to assume that kids grow up to follow their parents' ideals. I don't know the statistics on this but I do know that rebellion against parents is common if not the norm. So all these neocons having flocks of kids my be breeding future liberals.
36
@ #1 - I think you mean having FEWER kids. "Less kids" only works if you are pouring them out of a blender.
37
@34: Parental political affiliation is the strongest indicator of a child's political affiliation. (I actually DID learn something in my AP government class!) It may be true that teenagers rebel against their parents, but they usually find non-political ways of doing that. Also, after they become actual adults and move out, they often decide that their parents weren't as crazy as they thought when they were teenagers and come around to their point of view.
Also, democrat does not necessarily equal liberal. They tend to study the indicators to see which party the people vote for, not their place on the spectrum, mostly because it's easier. For example, being a member of a minority is a pretty good indicator of political affiliation, but there are many examples where even if that minority tends to vote for democrats, they also tend to have a liberal/conservative mishmash of opinions, for example very Catholic Hispanic pro-lifers who usually vote for democrats because they believe helping the poor is really important and democrats tend to support more social programs for the poor.
Also, democrat does not necessarily equal liberal. They tend to study the indicators to see which party the people vote for, not their place on the spectrum, mostly because it's easier. For example, being a member of a minority is a pretty good indicator of political affiliation, but there are many examples where even if that minority tends to vote for democrats, they also tend to have a liberal/conservative mishmash of opinions, for example very Catholic Hispanic pro-lifers who usually vote for democrats because they believe helping the poor is really important and democrats tend to support more social programs for the poor.
38
@17 I'm the oldest child of conservative parents and I'm incredibly liberal. My younger brothers, except for one, are varying degrees of conservative. I'm the one who found the status quo unbearable, moved, with an open mind, and tried something new.
39
I look around my rural town and highly educated, liberal parents have 2 kids. Not one and only rarely a third. Maybe "birth control" lets them control the births, you think? Whereas conservative and non-professional couples start at 2 and can go to 4, 5, or 7. That in itself is a huge difference, but equally important is age of parenthood. Liberals have kids in their 30's. Fundies start in the teens or early 20's.
Two kids versus three kids all centered around 33 years maternal age gives in a century:
1 woman ^3 = 1 woman in 100 years versus 1.5 women^3 = 3.4 women in 100 years.
(Yes, I realize 2 kids isn't even replacement level)
Now factor in liberal breeding at, say 33 but conservatives starting before 25:
1 woman ^3 = 1 liberal-born woman in 100 years versus 1.5 women^4 = 5 conservative-born women in 100 years.
Now take it to an extreme, LSD-style: 6 kids before the mother's late 20's (averaging 23 years old):
1 woman ^3 = 1 liberal-born woman in 100 years versus 3^4.3 = 112 conservative-born women in 100 years! That's a pretty big difference: 112 to 1!
Having a lot and having them young is a HUGE double-whammy, mathmatically.
Two kids versus three kids all centered around 33 years maternal age gives in a century:
1 woman ^3 = 1 woman in 100 years versus 1.5 women^3 = 3.4 women in 100 years.
(Yes, I realize 2 kids isn't even replacement level)
Now factor in liberal breeding at, say 33 but conservatives starting before 25:
1 woman ^3 = 1 liberal-born woman in 100 years versus 1.5 women^4 = 5 conservative-born women in 100 years.
Now take it to an extreme, LSD-style: 6 kids before the mother's late 20's (averaging 23 years old):
1 woman ^3 = 1 liberal-born woman in 100 years versus 3^4.3 = 112 conservative-born women in 100 years! That's a pretty big difference: 112 to 1!
Having a lot and having them young is a HUGE double-whammy, mathmatically.
40
If anything, my kids are MORE fiercely liberal then I ever dared to be. Probably because they've grown up with parents who encourage that kind of behaviour, but we only have two so I guess we'll just have to find some neighborhood kids to evangelize to.
So, Tyler/Taylor/Trevor, have you heard the word of Marx today?
So, Tyler/Taylor/Trevor, have you heard the word of Marx today?
41
Comment #7: very good point---though with the tightening of information bubble walls, I worry about people's being exposed to other points-of-view early enough for them to matter.
Comment #15: Terry Pratchett has repeatedly had a character muse about his childhood street, where everyone was poor and everyone's house was always impeccably whitewashed. People who see themselves as just one step above Those Living Horribly both are afraid of change that might tip them over and down, and have the spiritual need to differentiate themselves from Those People, as insurance against the notion that they could ever end up like Them. People's need to live in a world that makes sense and cares about them makes them prone to believe that people who suffer must deserve it (an American G.I. who helped liberate a death camp at the end of the Second World War remembered someone asking, 'What terrible thing did these people _do_?,'). If I recall correctly, one major way in which conservatives differ from liberals is in the latter's tendency to believe in this Just World Hypothesis (so-called); this is particularly laqughable in the case of conservative Christians, whose scriptures claim that Satan is the god of this world, that Jesus' kingdom is not of this world, that they should not be conforming with this world...but then again our country came up with the Prosperity Gospel, whose members believe that faith will make them rich enough to purchase giant needles with eyes large enough for any camel.
Comment #15: Terry Pratchett has repeatedly had a character muse about his childhood street, where everyone was poor and everyone's house was always impeccably whitewashed. People who see themselves as just one step above Those Living Horribly both are afraid of change that might tip them over and down, and have the spiritual need to differentiate themselves from Those People, as insurance against the notion that they could ever end up like Them. People's need to live in a world that makes sense and cares about them makes them prone to believe that people who suffer must deserve it (an American G.I. who helped liberate a death camp at the end of the Second World War remembered someone asking, 'What terrible thing did these people _do_?,'). If I recall correctly, one major way in which conservatives differ from liberals is in the latter's tendency to believe in this Just World Hypothesis (so-called); this is particularly laqughable in the case of conservative Christians, whose scriptures claim that Satan is the god of this world, that Jesus' kingdom is not of this world, that they should not be conforming with this world...but then again our country came up with the Prosperity Gospel, whose members believe that faith will make them rich enough to purchase giant needles with eyes large enough for any camel.
42
Im a 16 year old girl from central PA. I live in the middle of amish country, where everyone is conservative. -- Well, except me. My stories a little bit different though. I grew up with one conservative parent and one liberal (Needless to say the marriage didnt last long) anyways, I had the arguments of both politics inflicted upon me since a very young age. When I was with my dad, the republican, I tended to agree with his ideas on the govt - but then when I was with my mom, I agreed with her ideas. It wasnt until a few years ago that I started to realize republicans OVER EXAGERRATE EVERYTHING. Arent republicans supposed to be "Good Christian People?" Then why arent they "pro equality?" Politics are kind of fucked up... well at least the conservatives are. So, my point is, Im a liberal. I became a liberal after visiting Manhattan. I go there once a month now... it feels like home. I feel like I can go there and not be judged. Thats why I love liberals, and I adore being one.
43
My girlfriends parents are super religious conservative conspiracy nutjobs. All four of their kids are liberal atheists. Keep up the good work teabaggers!
44
@11 - My oldest brother turned out conservative, much to the bewilderment of my parents, siblings, and cousins. It must be hard for him when he talks with our elderly and early-Obama-supporting mother: part of him thinks she is encouraging the demise of America, but the conservative in him demands that he respect the wisdom of his elders, to say nothing of honoring his mother.
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