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News & ArtsSaturday, November 20, 2010
Sex / Religion The Pope: Condoms Acceptable In Certain Circumstances...
Posted by Dan Savage on Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:58 PM
...particularly the kind of circumstance that, say, a Prada-lovin' pope might find himself in:
Pope Benedict XVI says that condom use is acceptable "in certain cases," notably to reduce the risk of HIV infection, in a book due out Tuesday, apparently softening his once hardline stance.... To illustrate his apparent shift in position, Benedict offered the example of a male prostitute using a condom."There may be justified individual cases, for example when a male prostitute uses a condom, where this can be ... a first bit of responsibility, to re-develop the understanding that not everything is permitted and that one may not do everything one wishes," Benedict was quoted as saying.
So... condoms are okay when they're being used to protect men who see male prostitutes. They're not okay when they're being used to protect a woman—a woman who might already have more kids than she can possibly feed—from an unwanted pregnancy or a sexually transmitted infection. That's when condoms are not okay. But condoms are totally cool if men are using them to protect themselves from any diseases that a gay hooker might have. I think we understand each other, Benedict. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, pray no more, pray no more.
Says Andrew:
The new thing here is that the Church has stumbled backward into acknowledging that gay men exist, that within our lives as gay men, there are constant gradations of moral choices; and so Catholic teaching must apply to us in the gray areas of moral and sexual choices and nuances. Until now, no such guidance was really provided except general prohibition: y'all be celibate, and if you're miserable and alone, so was Jesus on the cross. Now, by conceding one small gradation of moral life, that between a rubbered prostitute and a bareback prostitute, the Pope has moved from his arid abstractions to real morality that might be able to guide real people.Of course, in a magnificently perverse way, this teaching privileges homosexuals. It's okay for a gay prostitute to wear a condom because he was never going to procreate anyway. But for a poor straight couple in Africa, where the husband is HIV-positive and the wife HIV-negative, nothing must come in the way of being open to procreation ... even if that means the infection of someone you love with a terminal disease.
It's then you realize that the Vatican's problem is not just homophobia. It's heterophobia as well.
4
Wasn't one of his pals just busted with a male prostitute? Seems like an attempt to be relevant or the result of a stroke.
5
Hahaha! Best pair of pictures in ages.
This is one of the most bizarre things I can ever remember a pope saying in years. Just... wow.
This is one of the most bizarre things I can ever remember a pope saying in years. Just... wow.
6
Great photo juxtaposition, Ratzi admiring the variegations of the self-tanner Mr. Ridgeston wore in his salad days.
9
@7 I think someone tossed your comment like a salad before it got posted. I'm sure I'll figure out what it said if I rearrange the words enough... ??
11
Sorry, I don't know that much about male prostitues. Are male prostitutes all doing gay sex for gay/bi men? Couldn't the pope be talking about straight male prostitutes in order to protect their straight female clients?
12
The read I get on this is slightly different. I think the pope is simply willing to protect his own. He knows that priests are having sex with boys as well as full grown men. If priests start coming down with HIV then it will kill off from an already shrinking pool of men entering the clergy. This is an act of self preservation here which is really what you can trace almost 100% of the catholic church's actions back to.
13
@11
Do any women even GO to prostitutes? I might, if there was a guaranteed orgasm. I can be disappointed for free, thanks.
When I saw the image, I was rather hoping the Pope had been busted for having protected gay sex with a male prostitute. Then we could just evacuate Vatican City and burn it to the ground.
And have a rave on the ashes! :D
Do any women even GO to prostitutes? I might, if there was a guaranteed orgasm. I can be disappointed for free, thanks.
When I saw the image, I was rather hoping the Pope had been busted for having protected gay sex with a male prostitute. Then we could just evacuate Vatican City and burn it to the ground.
And have a rave on the ashes! :D
15
Are there really a billion Catholics who listen to the wacky pronouncements of the freaky fossil Pope Rat?
16
I'm pretty sure the Pope was talking about homosexual prostitutes because in the Church's warped viewpoint of all that, there's no "potential life" being snuffed out via condom usage between two men.
17
To be clear about this...
The ITALIAN translation used the FEMININE word for prostitute... People's panties are in a wad over the GERMAN use of the male syntax... Consider this: in the 1950s, nuns going to the warring Congo were given birth control pills as "pregnancy was a greater evil than contraception."
Do I think one-partner rhythm method sex is right/that those "millions of geniuses" were really lost due to a condom? Hell no! Do I think this pope is pretty damn awesome for addressing the very REAL AIDS epidemic in a land that has no funds to treat it when WE can't afford to treat them, EITHER, by the tens of thousands...? Hell yes he is! It says that we must "make certain" to Africans in teaching that "this is the only way to save a life." His interview says, "If the person does not follow the teaching of Christ in the church, they are at least obliged to prevent another person from contracting a disease that is deadly."
So WHAT if Catholics don't believe in birth control for monogamous partnerships?? Then don't BE one! For them to encourage condom use to prevent STDs ANYWHERE but ESPECIALLY Africa where they have the largest epidemic and the least treatment available, give the guy some credit for compassion about human suffering... He wants these moms to be there for their kids when a husband has strayed or even when they get a new partner (some because a husband died of disease or in warfare...)
So get off the uppity "he didn't do a 180 in one interview" when just a YEAR ago... They were AGAINST all condom use and believed in SOLELY educating about fidelity (it is too late for that--protect the next generation by not having HIV carriers havingu nprotected sex, or no kids will remain to even have an AIDS-free possibility--they are already dying as little kids... Before they even have al their permanent teeth, they have suffered the wrath of unprotected infected partners...
They are, to quote, "realizing the need to start awakening moral responsibility in human sexuality" as it is "the only way to save a life."
And AGAIN TO BE CLEAR THE POPE ACTUALLY ADDRESSED THE ACTUAL EPIDEMIC OF SPREADING TO FEMALE PROSTITUTES... yeah it applies to men as well, but in Africa, homosexual behavior is less of a constant threat, particularly to kids who need the mom to breast feed them and not be dying as they learn to crawl. Yeah yeah a man could take care of the kid. HERE. Not there so easily... The incomes don't have these nannies and formulas... Some surrogate feeders exist but moms are more critical THERE than here as far as who takes care of a kid. It already takes a whole village to raise a child. Let it be the whole village with pope condoms to have more healthy-enough adults to raise them.
Dan, please at least check your bitter resentment towards the Catholic establishment at the submit key so you can give credit where damnit it is well due--the church saves a shitload of villages through World Vision with no agenda to convert, no churches built, just schools and better farms with irrigation and such... You can be such a prick when playing journalist with the agenda to kick the church any way you can. There are PLENTY of legit ways to trash them. Shame on you for attacking the good parts. If they said "Homosexuality and polygamy are our biological and historical dispositions, and we want to honor how God made us" with the total blessing to bang left and right--even to not procreate with anyone but that one ie to use condoms--you'd STILL spat in their faces for thinking couples should not use barrier or hormonal protections that are not just the Church's stance... Plenty of naturalists are also against it, heathen hippie naturalists... End of bitchy rant...
(I am agnostic so it matters little to me; the humanitarian effort matters).
More...
The ITALIAN translation used the FEMININE word for prostitute... People's panties are in a wad over the GERMAN use of the male syntax... Consider this: in the 1950s, nuns going to the warring Congo were given birth control pills as "pregnancy was a greater evil than contraception."
Do I think one-partner rhythm method sex is right/that those "millions of geniuses" were really lost due to a condom? Hell no! Do I think this pope is pretty damn awesome for addressing the very REAL AIDS epidemic in a land that has no funds to treat it when WE can't afford to treat them, EITHER, by the tens of thousands...? Hell yes he is! It says that we must "make certain" to Africans in teaching that "this is the only way to save a life." His interview says, "If the person does not follow the teaching of Christ in the church, they are at least obliged to prevent another person from contracting a disease that is deadly."
So WHAT if Catholics don't believe in birth control for monogamous partnerships?? Then don't BE one! For them to encourage condom use to prevent STDs ANYWHERE but ESPECIALLY Africa where they have the largest epidemic and the least treatment available, give the guy some credit for compassion about human suffering... He wants these moms to be there for their kids when a husband has strayed or even when they get a new partner (some because a husband died of disease or in warfare...)
So get off the uppity "he didn't do a 180 in one interview" when just a YEAR ago... They were AGAINST all condom use and believed in SOLELY educating about fidelity (it is too late for that--protect the next generation by not having HIV carriers havingu nprotected sex, or no kids will remain to even have an AIDS-free possibility--they are already dying as little kids... Before they even have al their permanent teeth, they have suffered the wrath of unprotected infected partners...
They are, to quote, "realizing the need to start awakening moral responsibility in human sexuality" as it is "the only way to save a life."
And AGAIN TO BE CLEAR THE POPE ACTUALLY ADDRESSED THE ACTUAL EPIDEMIC OF SPREADING TO FEMALE PROSTITUTES... yeah it applies to men as well, but in Africa, homosexual behavior is less of a constant threat, particularly to kids who need the mom to breast feed them and not be dying as they learn to crawl. Yeah yeah a man could take care of the kid. HERE. Not there so easily... The incomes don't have these nannies and formulas... Some surrogate feeders exist but moms are more critical THERE than here as far as who takes care of a kid. It already takes a whole village to raise a child. Let it be the whole village with pope condoms to have more healthy-enough adults to raise them.
Dan, please at least check your bitter resentment towards the Catholic establishment at the submit key so you can give credit where damnit it is well due--the church saves a shitload of villages through World Vision with no agenda to convert, no churches built, just schools and better farms with irrigation and such... You can be such a prick when playing journalist with the agenda to kick the church any way you can. There are PLENTY of legit ways to trash them. Shame on you for attacking the good parts. If they said "Homosexuality and polygamy are our biological and historical dispositions, and we want to honor how God made us" with the total blessing to bang left and right--even to not procreate with anyone but that one ie to use condoms--you'd STILL spat in their faces for thinking couples should not use barrier or hormonal protections that are not just the Church's stance... Plenty of naturalists are also against it, heathen hippie naturalists... End of bitchy rant...
(I am agnostic so it matters little to me; the humanitarian effort matters).
18
@7, I have K-9 and the TARDIS working on a translation right now..but it's blowing the time circuits something fierce!
20
& @7 Venomlash... What? Did you have some wisdom teeth pulled or something and either had your usually keen bantery lash-at-lovesitwild wit yanked out... Or maybe just maybe they gave you something REALLY REALLY GOOD? It reads like a fentanyl patch was applied straight to your face!
21
@17 Dan's not the only one reaching that conclusion. See second paragraph here: Pope Says Condoms to Stop AIDS May Be Ac….
The italians appear to have translated his remarks as using a female prostitute (eg Il libro del Papa: A volte il condom giu…).
I haven't yet found the exact commentary in German, but wouldn't be much able to translate those. This might be a starting point, if anyone here knows German (how much does Dan remember from his time in Germany?? :) ) http://tinyurl.com/24rduc5
This article appears to confirm his original remarks were very specifically about male prostitutes and very specifically about when conception wouldn't be possible anyway (but is in English): http://tinyurl.com/2fglahc
The italians appear to have translated his remarks as using a female prostitute (eg Il libro del Papa: A volte il condom giu…).
I haven't yet found the exact commentary in German, but wouldn't be much able to translate those. This might be a starting point, if anyone here knows German (how much does Dan remember from his time in Germany?? :) ) http://tinyurl.com/24rduc5
This article appears to confirm his original remarks were very specifically about male prostitutes and very specifically about when conception wouldn't be possible anyway (but is in English): http://tinyurl.com/2fglahc
22
"As a matter of fact, you know, people can get condoms when they want them anyway. But this just goes to show that condoms alone do not resolve the question itself. More needs to happen. Meanwhile, the secular realm itself has developed the so-called ABC Theory: Abstinence-Be Faithful-Condom, where the condom is understood only as a last resort, when the other two points fail to work.
"This means that the sheer fixation on the condom implies a banalization of sexuality, which, after all, is precisely the dangerous source of the attitude of no longer seeing sexuality as the expression of love, but only a sort of drug that people administer to themselves. This is why the fight against the banalization of sexuality is also a part of the struggle to ensure that sexuality is treated as a positive value and to enable it to have a positive effect on the whole of man's being.
"There may be a basis in the case of some individuals, as perhaps when a male prostitute uses a condom, where this can be a first step in the direction of a moralization, a first assumption of responsibility, on the way toward recovering an awareness that not everything is allowed and that one cannot do whatever one wants. But it is not really the way to deal with the evil of HIV infection.
"That can really lie only in a humanization of sexuality."
"This means that the sheer fixation on the condom implies a banalization of sexuality, which, after all, is precisely the dangerous source of the attitude of no longer seeing sexuality as the expression of love, but only a sort of drug that people administer to themselves. This is why the fight against the banalization of sexuality is also a part of the struggle to ensure that sexuality is treated as a positive value and to enable it to have a positive effect on the whole of man's being.
"There may be a basis in the case of some individuals, as perhaps when a male prostitute uses a condom, where this can be a first step in the direction of a moralization, a first assumption of responsibility, on the way toward recovering an awareness that not everything is allowed and that one cannot do whatever one wants. But it is not really the way to deal with the evil of HIV infection.
"That can really lie only in a humanization of sexuality."
23
What a progressive, forward thinker Ratzi is. He probably deserves an award of some kind for this revelation.
25
@24 Huh. I think all your base are belong to us got more traction than that one.
But thx, another bit of internet lore tossed into my toolbox :)
But thx, another bit of internet lore tossed into my toolbox :)
28
@17, you just talk too much!
There are no good parts to Catholicism, and Africa (not to mention the rest of the world) would be way better off if Catholic & other "well-meaning" Christian missionaries had never set foot there, on their missions to "civilize the savages." - while spreading their bizarre & hateful Biblical Bullshit.
Filling peoples' minds with ridiculous & even hateful fairy Christian tales helps no one. Get a spine & walk away from the Catholic Criminal Empire.
There are no good parts to Catholicism, and Africa (not to mention the rest of the world) would be way better off if Catholic & other "well-meaning" Christian missionaries had never set foot there, on their missions to "civilize the savages." - while spreading their bizarre & hateful Biblical Bullshit.
Filling peoples' minds with ridiculous & even hateful fairy Christian tales helps no one. Get a spine & walk away from the Catholic Criminal Empire.
32
Wow, and nothing about encouraging male johns to use condoms to protect female prostitutes? What an ass.
33
The German news also talk about male prostitutes. But they say male prostitutes were given as an example for which groups may use condoms. The whole drift seems to be condoms are allowed to avoid transmitting diseases but not to avoid pregnancy.
And that is not that new. In Catholic religious education I was taught that the use of condoms is permitted between a married couple if one has a terminal STI (that was the early 90ies in Germany).
And that is not that new. In Catholic religious education I was taught that the use of condoms is permitted between a married couple if one has a terminal STI (that was the early 90ies in Germany).
34
Wow. This, together with the news that the Catholic church is holding workshops to train new exorcists, because they don't have enough of them to handle all the cases of demonic possession . . . Why hasn't this institution imploded yet?
35
@ BEG: Der Spiegel says "for homosexual prostitutes", I think the migrationist has it right when he says that the pope seems to have used this as an example for a time when it's more moral to use a condom than not.
Also, the article mentions that papal doctrine never even took into account that condoms can prevent disease. Used to be, all the doctrine was based on condoms as birth control...
Also, the article mentions that papal doctrine never even took into account that condoms can prevent disease. Used to be, all the doctrine was based on condoms as birth control...
36
The statement on this from the Vatican - which is in Italian, and uses the direct excerpt from his book - speaks about female prostitutes. Or rather just states prostitutes in general. And BEG's link in German doesn't mention homosexual prostitution just that there may be individual cases where condom use is justified. I would guess that someone screwed up in the translation.
37
kaloi, both Der Spiegel and tagesschau.de mention "homosexuelle" or "männliche" prostitutes, but both are apparently quoting an interview in the Vatican newspaper Osservatore Romano. So it's possible that they are all just getting the translation wrong. I think it was just meant as an example, one of a few cases where condoms would be better to use than not.
38
Once again, the church proves itself as a follower of ethics, not a leader (and in this particular case, a hilariously poor follower...) The mere idea that the church deserves to be considered a beacon or a source of ethical ideas is laughable. For an organization that claims to have direct contact with God from which to convey His absolute moral truths to the people, they sure as hell can't hold onto a single position and will always eventually crumble to pressure from the society at large onto what their morality should be.
It almost makes me think that they DON'T commune with God and DON'T actually have a clue what they're talking about! And perhaps all their claims to the contrary have more to do with consolidating huge worldwide power than doing good for the world...hmmm, possibly possibly.
It almost makes me think that they DON'T commune with God and DON'T actually have a clue what they're talking about! And perhaps all their claims to the contrary have more to do with consolidating huge worldwide power than doing good for the world...hmmm, possibly possibly.
39
God, even though Bel Ami boys are typically "my type of porn", I'd forgotten how much I like to look at Lukas Ridgeston. So at least Catholicism is good for something these days.
40
Of course, in a magnificently perverse way, this teaching privileges homosexuals. It's okay for a gay prostitute to wear a condom because he was never going to procreate anyway. But for a poor straight couple in Africa, where the husband is HIV-positive and the wife HIV-negative, nothing must come in the way of being open to procreation ... even if that means the infection of someone you love with a terminal disease.
I don't understand. If the woman in the poor straight couple in Africa is not in an abusive relationship, how does the prohibition on condoms prevent her from avoiding AIDS?
I don't understand. If the woman in the poor straight couple in Africa is not in an abusive relationship, how does the prohibition on condoms prevent her from avoiding AIDS?
41
Man, why arent more people talking about how this is anti-condom. He was saying that some can use condoms, male prostitutes (Gay people), and in doing so he is hoping to tie condom use to homosexuality. You group gay into ANYTHING to some parts of the world and that thing will never be welcome again.
This is just another trick to get Africans to not use condoms.
This is just another trick to get Africans to not use condoms.
42
Took 'em a while: Update: "Pope Benedict XVI's comments about condom use being a lesser evil than transmitting HIV also apply to women, the Vatican said Tuesday."
Apparently the Vatican is not up to date on modern communication either. How long does it take to respond in this day and age of internet global news?
Apparently the Vatican is not up to date on modern communication either. How long does it take to respond in this day and age of internet global news?
43
I'm just curious how many people there are that are both male prostitutes and such devout Catholics that they care what the pope thinks? Seems to me that those two groups would be mutually exclusive.
Go figure.
Go figure.
47
@21: the article from Morgenpost you link to doesn't make it clear whether it's about male or female prostitutes. It just uses the plural (Prostituierte), which can refer to either. But these aren't the Pope's words; just a paraphrase. We may have to wait for the book...
@17 "THE POPE ACTUALLY ADDRESSED THE ACTUAL EPIDEMIC OF SPREADING TO FEMALE PROSTITUTES..." Huh? You may scream as loud as you can, but it's not the prostitutes, female or not, that he cares about, it's their clients.
@17 "THE POPE ACTUALLY ADDRESSED THE ACTUAL EPIDEMIC OF SPREADING TO FEMALE PROSTITUTES..." Huh? You may scream as loud as you can, but it's not the prostitutes, female or not, that he cares about, it's their clients.
48
Mr. Savage,
"The new thing here is that the Church has stumbled backward into acknowledging that gay men exist, that within our lives as gay men, there are constant gradations of moral choices; and so Catholic teaching must apply to us in the gray areas of moral and sexual choices and nuances."
Umm, no. One cannot be a christian as well as an unrepentant homosexual. One cannot be a christian as well as an unrepentant embezzler, or adulterer. Simply put, homosexuality, apart from being a sexual disorder and mental illness, is a sin. There isn't a moral nuance to that, try though you might to justify your deviant lifestyle.
"The new thing here is that the Church has stumbled backward into acknowledging that gay men exist, that within our lives as gay men, there are constant gradations of moral choices; and so Catholic teaching must apply to us in the gray areas of moral and sexual choices and nuances."
Umm, no. One cannot be a christian as well as an unrepentant homosexual. One cannot be a christian as well as an unrepentant embezzler, or adulterer. Simply put, homosexuality, apart from being a sexual disorder and mental illness, is a sin. There isn't a moral nuance to that, try though you might to justify your deviant lifestyle.
49
Clarification-
Homosexuality and any other behaviors destructive of the self or of others are sins. Those who struggle against such weaknesses availing themselves of Gods grace are to be commended for the struggle. Those who celebrate their destructiveness (with homosexuality destructiveness of the self) are, if they claim to be christian, putting that faith in jeopardy.
This is not a matter for the criminal or civil law. It is not a reason for involuntary psychiatric care (though it would be advisable for those suffering from this mental illness.) It is not a valid reason or justification for discrimination in housing or employment or any other area. Adults who choose a path of self destruction without harming others have the right to do so. They should at least have the courage and honesty to choose also either their lifestyle or the faith that is imcompatible with it, though.
Basically, Mr. Savage, your sexuality isn't my concern, or that of the Pope or any other religious leader. At the same time, the Pope really isn't your concern. By your choice of a deviant sexuality you distance yourself from that church or any other Christian church, and make whatever beliefs they hold irrelevant to you.
Homosexuality and any other behaviors destructive of the self or of others are sins. Those who struggle against such weaknesses availing themselves of Gods grace are to be commended for the struggle. Those who celebrate their destructiveness (with homosexuality destructiveness of the self) are, if they claim to be christian, putting that faith in jeopardy.
This is not a matter for the criminal or civil law. It is not a reason for involuntary psychiatric care (though it would be advisable for those suffering from this mental illness.) It is not a valid reason or justification for discrimination in housing or employment or any other area. Adults who choose a path of self destruction without harming others have the right to do so. They should at least have the courage and honesty to choose also either their lifestyle or the faith that is imcompatible with it, though.
Basically, Mr. Savage, your sexuality isn't my concern, or that of the Pope or any other religious leader. At the same time, the Pope really isn't your concern. By your choice of a deviant sexuality you distance yourself from that church or any other Christian church, and make whatever beliefs they hold irrelevant to you.
50
I've heard that it's a common attitude in more than one latin-american country that Catholic women will be delighted to stop using birth control on the very day that the Vatican starts paying them to feed their ever-growing families.
So yeah, although the teachings of the Church are thoroughly fucked up, not all of their followers actually, you know, listen to it due to its impracticality in real life.
So yeah, although the teachings of the Church are thoroughly fucked up, not all of their followers actually, you know, listen to it due to its impracticality in real life.
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