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News & ArtsThursday, November 4, 2010
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: Dan Blows Chaste Married Men
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 5:49 PM
I'm a longtime reader, and wanted to let you know that you pretty much blew it on one of the questions this week—that softball question about male chastity from WIFE, whose husband had asked her to lock up his dick.You told WIFE that "except in the most extreme cases," male chastity "isn't really about orgasm denial" and that the usual result is the "denied/chaste man having more orgasms, not fewer."
I'm a chastity submissive and my wife is my Top, and as a member of this kink group, I'm quite confident in saying you are dead wrong. A husband who tells his wife he wants to be locked in a chastity cage isn't asking in code for more orgasms, or even just for greater intimacy, he's asking to be sexually dominated in a specific way. Considering that this is a very difficult thing for a man to request, I'll bet money that WIFE's husband really does have this kink.
You're not doing either WIFE or her husband any favors by telling her that unless her husband is an "extreme case," he doesn't actually mean what he's asking for. He almost certainly does. Like lots of other kinks, this one is surprising to lots of folks, but is real and specific. WIFE's husband sincerely wants her to control and deny his orgasms as a form of submission. This can be fun for both parties, but pretending his kink isn't about control and denial isn't a good starting point. Because it is about those things.
You also warned WIFE not to actually deny her husband for any significant length of time because she would elevate his risk of prostate cancer. I found this surprising because I ASKED YOU THIS EXACT QUESTION last year and you published a rather different answer, in which you took pains to point out that those studies that do exist on this topic seem to indicate that ejaculating very infrequently may be healthier than ejaculating at a moderate frequency.
Maybe the research has changed since then, but my understanding is that prostate cancer triggers are still poorly understood, so I'm not so sure that telling WIFE "your husband probably doesn't really mean what he's saying, but even if he does, don't actually do what he's asking for you'll give him cancer" was the best possible advice here.
Loving Orgasms And Denial Every Day
My response after the jump...
My previous column about male chastity and prostate health—the one where I responded to LOADED's original question—went like this:
"We still have very little idea what might cause or prevent prostate cancer," says Dr. Barak Gaster, associate professor of medicine at the University of Washington and our resident medical expert. "There are some clues—red meat, probably bad; vegetables, probably good; vitamin E, probably not helpful—but we're really still in the dark." And while most studies have shown frequent ejaculation to be good for prostate health, one recent study out of the UK showed the exact opposite.So what should you do? Rely on the best-available study, advises Gaster. "[That study] followed U.S. men for eight years and found that those with the most ejaculations per month (more than 20) had a 30 percent lower risk of prostate cancer compared to those who were having fewer per month (about five)." But there is good news in the study for you, LOADED: "The 5 percent of men who reported having zero to three per month appeared to have a lower risk for prostate cancer as well," said Gaster. "The caveat is that this group was too small to make definite conclusions about them. But it looks like coming more than 20 times a month could be good for you in terms of prostate cancer, but it's unlikely that coming very little, like zero to three times per month, is necessarily bad for you compared to coming once or twice a week."
So ejaculate frequently, guys, or ejaculate rarely, because it would appear that moderation in pursuit of prostate health is no virtue.
Clearly I should've consulted with Dr. Gaster again or, gee, just looked up that old column. Sorry about that. As for whether chastity play results in more orgasms for the locked-up dude, well, Mikecb gets closer to what I meant to say—but failed to say—when he wrote this in the comments thread on this week's column...
Several regular posters on www.chastityforums.com report that after beginning chastity play that their marriages began to feature MUCH more regular intimacy and play. That intimacy may not lead to orgasms for the man very often, but the couples find it ENORMOUSLY more satisfying than their relationship pre-chastity play.
Okay, okay: that's not what I wrote, not technically. In fact you could say—and you probably are saying—that that's the opposite of what I wrote. But it's totally what I meant which should count for something... right?
But I have to concede that LOADED is 100% correct. I blew that response to WIFE. I blew it twice.
And finally...
Several of the folks who jumped into the comments thread to slap me around just so happen to be married men whose wives just so happen to be keeping their cocks under lock and key—and they are all, of course, blogging about their experiences. If you're wondering what it's like to have your cock locked up—and "your cock" here can means the cock you were born with (because you're a guy with a cock) or the cock you've locked up (because you're a keyholder who has taken complete ownership of your partner's cock), check out these informative, compelling, and well-written blogs:
Nuts4belle.wordpress.com
devotedlvr.wordpress.com
www.denyingthumper.com
2
It isn't about having a penis. It is about a new level of respect, intimacy, trust, and a little bit of fun. If you can't think outside of the box, it isn't for you.
4
It's funny - male chastity devices as a sexual kink haven't been around all that long (relative to BDSM in general), but unlike whips, chains, and leather, it has been pretty much ignored by the more mainstream. It probably took the mass-produced plastic models developed over the last 10 years just to make some inroads into the general population.
Hopefully, little mentions such as this will help give people a better understanding of what's involved.
Hopefully, little mentions such as this will help give people a better understanding of what's involved.
5
I have spent 20 minutes trying to come up with a fabulous answer and all I can say is thanks, Dan. "Informative, compelling, and well-written"? I am flattered beyond all belief. I knew all the hard work was worth it. For folks interested in chastity, please feel free to drop me a line. Contact info is at the blog.
Dev
devotedlvr.wordpress.com
Dev
devotedlvr.wordpress.com
6
It's funny - male chastity devices as a sexual kink haven't been around all that long (relative to BDSM in general), but unlike whips, chains, and leather, it has been pretty much ignored by the more mainstream. It probably took the mass-produced plastic models developed over the last 10 years just to make some inroads into the general population.
Hopefully, little mentions such as this will help give people a better understanding of what's involved.
Hopefully, little mentions such as this will help give people a better understanding of what's involved.
7
So, I get it now. Chastity is a kink, it's all about sex. Why of course! So all those Christians who are doing these chastity rings and dances are really doing sex parties. Every time, Christians, every time you say something you mean the opposite.
9
Jesus key4belle, it's a joke. Kinks, like the rest of life, can be absurd (in the existential sense). We live in an interesting universe. Why not laugh at it?
10
I have nothing at all to contribute here, owning (in neither sense) such equipment, except that denyingthumper has a pretty good porn portfolio which, uh, I've been going thru the last two weeks or so...
12
key4belle, lighten the fuck up. You may be in a dominating relationship but you can't dominate the internet. You're not doing yourself or your kink any favors by implying that people who aren't into chastity can't "think outside the box" and don't have respect, intimacy, and trust. You're just being a sanctimonious shithead. Chastity's fine for you and I'm glad you enjoy it, but mind your own business.
13
So getting your blog mentioned by Dan Savage has to be something like winning the sex blogger lottery. It's like a bus full of people just showed up at my door and the house is a mess and I'm still in my robe. Or something.
Anyway, awesome correction there, Dan. Thanks for shining a light on our kinky little corner of the universe.
Anyway, awesome correction there, Dan. Thanks for shining a light on our kinky little corner of the universe.
16
2:
The implication of your words is that people who don't participate in chastity/male orgasm denial are thinking inside the box. Did it ever strike you that maybe a woman may just not like to dominate? Maybe a man may just not like to be submissive? Maybe he may like masturbating on his own sometimes? And further, that there's nothing wrong with any of these things?
sheesh, talk about close-mindedness
The implication of your words is that people who don't participate in chastity/male orgasm denial are thinking inside the box. Did it ever strike you that maybe a woman may just not like to dominate? Maybe a man may just not like to be submissive? Maybe he may like masturbating on his own sometimes? And further, that there's nothing wrong with any of these things?
sheesh, talk about close-mindedness
18
16. I don't want to speak for Belle, as I know that when she wakes up she will do it herself. I would like to clarify what she mean't however before this gets more blown out of proportion.
She was not trying to imply that those who do not participate in chastity do not have intimacy or cannot think outside the box. What she was trying to say is that if male chastity is something that someone wants to try, it is essential that you have an open mind and are able to think outside the box. MC can very much increase the intimacy in a relationship if done right, but it is not essential. Her comments did come off as crass, and that is unfortunate, but I know they were not intended to come off with the "everybody needs to do this attitude." we are brand new at this ourselves, and thinking outside the box IS something we struggled with.
As far as the whole dom/sub thing goes, that is a very common stereotype that I myself associated with MC before I knew anything about it. Not anything wrong with it, but that is not our kink and there are actually quite a few couples that enjoy MC without that aspect. My wife controls my orgasms and that is all. She is not dominant and I am not submissive in our everyday lives. Yes I enjoy masturbating when I want to, I just find it much hotter to do so with my wife. It makes it less of a me thing and more of an us thing.
Hope that helps clear some things up. She certainly didn't mean to cause an uproar. Dealing with two screaming babies may have bled through in her post a bit. ;)
She was not trying to imply that those who do not participate in chastity do not have intimacy or cannot think outside the box. What she was trying to say is that if male chastity is something that someone wants to try, it is essential that you have an open mind and are able to think outside the box. MC can very much increase the intimacy in a relationship if done right, but it is not essential. Her comments did come off as crass, and that is unfortunate, but I know they were not intended to come off with the "everybody needs to do this attitude." we are brand new at this ourselves, and thinking outside the box IS something we struggled with.
As far as the whole dom/sub thing goes, that is a very common stereotype that I myself associated with MC before I knew anything about it. Not anything wrong with it, but that is not our kink and there are actually quite a few couples that enjoy MC without that aspect. My wife controls my orgasms and that is all. She is not dominant and I am not submissive in our everyday lives. Yes I enjoy masturbating when I want to, I just find it much hotter to do so with my wife. It makes it less of a me thing and more of an us thing.
Hope that helps clear some things up. She certainly didn't mean to cause an uproar. Dealing with two screaming babies may have bled through in her post a bit. ;)
19
I have to say I love how so many people have such strong opinions on things they know nothing about.
As with Jnuts, I control my husband's orgasms and other than that we're in a most definitely male-led relationship.
The assumption that the reverse must be true is one of those sad little myths perpetuated by men who have little better to do than type one-handed, venting their frustrations into the ether.
Sarah
As with Jnuts, I control my husband's orgasms and other than that we're in a most definitely male-led relationship.
The assumption that the reverse must be true is one of those sad little myths perpetuated by men who have little better to do than type one-handed, venting their frustrations into the ether.
Sarah
20
Hellbound said: "So, I get it now. Chastity is a kink, it's all about sex. Why of course! So all those Christians who are doing these chastity rings and dances are really doing sex parties. Every time, Christians, every time you say something you mean the opposite. "
I don't recall anyone saying "chastity is about kink". What they said was, in effect, "one kink involves chastity".
It's a bit like ducks being birds, but not all birds being ducks, you know?
Besides, the male chastity kink is, in part for many couples, about much more than sex - many couples find it increases and improves the quantity and quality of their physical and emotional intimacy.
Sarah Jameson
The Male Chastity Blog
I don't recall anyone saying "chastity is about kink". What they said was, in effect, "one kink involves chastity".
It's a bit like ducks being birds, but not all birds being ducks, you know?
Besides, the male chastity kink is, in part for many couples, about much more than sex - many couples find it increases and improves the quantity and quality of their physical and emotional intimacy.
Sarah Jameson
The Male Chastity Blog
21
Wow, some of you have been here 5 minutes and think you know better what we should have said and exactly where we went wrong in our lives sex lives.
We can only hope you disappear just as quickly.
Buh-bye!
We can only hope you disappear just as quickly.
Buh-bye!
22
Am I the only one who read @7 as a joke? I mean, c'mon, it's hilarious. Black is white, white is black, christians are actually all about the sex (and on a meta level, they *really are* all about the sex) etc etc etc...
23
@7 was definitely a joke. Just like my first response to the thought of women preventing their men from having an orgasm was: Wow, tens of millions of couples in this country had no idea how kinky they are! Of course, most of those men are married to chastity devices, not wearing them.
24
Still waiting for an answer regarding chastity and uncircumsized men. I've read that it's best to cut down, alter and adjust existing devices, but for those of us that are not so handy at such things, is there a recommended brand? The concern is cleanliness.
I've emailed Dan a few times about this and posted a comment on this week's Savage love, but so far, no answer.
I've emailed Dan a few times about this and posted a comment on this week's Savage love, but so far, no answer.
25
Check out maturemetal.com. They make custom devices for reasonable prices. They are very knowledgable and answer questions quickly.
26
@nerdoscientist - I'm cut so I can't answer your question, but it comes up pretty frequently. I think some devices are better than others for the foreskin crowd, I'm just not sure which they are. Also, chastity is very much a YMMV kind of topic in that what works for one guy doesn't for another (especially with the mass produced plastic devices).
Talking to a manufacturer like Mature Metal (really cool guy with great support) is a good idea. I'd also advise a site like chastityforums.com or, probably even better, joining one of the groups on FetLife dealing with chastity. There's a ton of guys over there and I'm sure more than a few can answer your question.
Talking to a manufacturer like Mature Metal (really cool guy with great support) is a good idea. I'd also advise a site like chastityforums.com or, probably even better, joining one of the groups on FetLife dealing with chastity. There's a ton of guys over there and I'm sure more than a few can answer your question.
27
Don't think for a minute the Hellbound isn't onto something. One of the main (perhaps subconscious) reasons that anti-sex people continue to be anti-sex is because when they DO have sex, it's So Much Hotter than it is when one believes it's all good and healthy (which of course, when consensual, it generally is). Forbidden sex is hot. Taboos excite. Look at all the sexual hypocrisy, imagine all those not yet exposed to the light of day -- that's ahunkahunka hot sex. Obviously this is not for all of us; it may be its own kink.
28
Don't think for a minute the Hellbound isn't onto something. One of the main (perhaps subconscious) reasons that anti-sex people continue to be anti-sex is because when they DO have sex, it's So Much Hotter than it is when one believes it's all good and healthy (which of course, when consensual, it generally is). Forbidden sex is hot. Taboos excite. Look at all the sexual hypocrisy, imagine all those not yet exposed to the light of day -- that's ahunkahunka hot sex. Obviously this is not for all of us; it may be its own kink.
29
I have a technical question for the MC practitioners: When a man first submits his orgasms to his wife, how exactly is that done? Does he put on the device himself, or does she lock his cock up to be more symbolic? Is he made to become hard and maybe near orgasm before his cock is encased, making it that much more excruciating that he is unable to come? Or is the cage applied to a soft cock only? How exactly does it work?
30
Typically a device is fitted for a flacid penis so it would be put on when soft.
One of the nice things about MC (or a lot of kinks for that matter) is that you do it how you want. You make the rules. My first device is on order. We have been using the honor system thus far and although there isn't a physical reminder hanging from my genitals, it is still cool as hell.
One of the nice things about MC (or a lot of kinks for that matter) is that you do it how you want. You make the rules. My first device is on order. We have been using the honor system thus far and although there isn't a physical reminder hanging from my genitals, it is still cool as hell.
31
@HRH, as Jnuts said, it varies. A lot of people start on the honor system, but the longer you go without orgasm, the harder I've found that to be. After a while, it's hard to keep your hands off yourself when weeks turn into months and you haven't had an orgasm. A lot of people (but not all) eventually get a device.
That said, the devices are also designed to arrest the erection, so you have to put it on when flaccid. They're almost all much smaller than the average erect penis. Some guys get so excited by the prospect of putting it on that they have to do it immediately after orgasm (ironically). The hard part about that is once one *has* an orgasm one is much less likely to want to be locked up.
@lewlew - Are you suggesting that chastity is somehow anti-sex? Nothing could be further form the truth. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.
That said, the devices are also designed to arrest the erection, so you have to put it on when flaccid. They're almost all much smaller than the average erect penis. Some guys get so excited by the prospect of putting it on that they have to do it immediately after orgasm (ironically). The hard part about that is once one *has* an orgasm one is much less likely to want to be locked up.
@lewlew - Are you suggesting that chastity is somehow anti-sex? Nothing could be further form the truth. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.
32
@18, 19:
Practicing male chastity or orgasm denial is, by definition, a type of BDSM. That doesn't mean that that dynamic extends to your everyday lives, or that the male partner being denied is submissive in other ways. But it's still a type of domination and submission.
Practicing male chastity or orgasm denial is, by definition, a type of BDSM. That doesn't mean that that dynamic extends to your everyday lives, or that the male partner being denied is submissive in other ways. But it's still a type of domination and submission.
33
Oh come on Dan. You probably get more letters from married men who get laid 2, 3, maybe even 4 times a *year* (if they're really lucky that year), than there are male chastity fetishists in all of the US. And that's not even accounting for the number of actual married Americans who only get laid that often, yet don't write you about it.
But I'd be willing to bet good money that there isn't a single chastity fetishist that has sex that infrequently (that's not a fetish, that's neglect), so you can definitely say that male chastity very likely increases the number of orgasms that these men get.
But I'd be willing to bet good money that there isn't a single chastity fetishist that has sex that infrequently (that's not a fetish, that's neglect), so you can definitely say that male chastity very likely increases the number of orgasms that these men get.
34
HRH, when our first device arrived, my husband was so excited he locked himself up and was waiting for me in the driveway when I got home from work. He handed me the keys with a big smile. Since then, we've moved on to smaller and better fitting devices and getting those on is almost a three-handed job (although he can do it by himself right after his shower). The newest one we have has a screw instead of a lock (very sleek looking, I have to say!) and I hold it together while he screws it shut. There is a certain symbolism in doing that together.
We've agreed that he'll be wearing something 24/7 except when I say the cock can be free, but I have given him the flexibility to decide what he wants to wear depending on his mood and comfort. We have two metal devices plus a locking cock ring. He was in the cock ring when he went to work this morning. I'm curious to see what he has on this evening when I get home. It's fun and makes it even more of a game.
Dev
devotedlvr.worpress.com
We've agreed that he'll be wearing something 24/7 except when I say the cock can be free, but I have given him the flexibility to decide what he wants to wear depending on his mood and comfort. We have two metal devices plus a locking cock ring. He was in the cock ring when he went to work this morning. I'm curious to see what he has on this evening when I get home. It's fun and makes it even more of a game.
Dev
devotedlvr.worpress.com
35
@Gromm, interesting point and I suspect for many men, you are absolutely correct.
Prior to chastity, my husband was having plenty of orgasms--trouble is, they weren't with me. He was alone, using his hand, and looking at some porn. And while he derived his moment of pleasure, there wasn't anything particularly special or memorable about them. They were day-to-day, typical, throwaway masturbation orgasms.
Now, his orgasms are an event. They are special and something to be looked forward to. Anticipation makes them sweet and memorable. Ask any chaste guy--he can probably tell you the exact date when he had his last orgasm and can likely tell you the date of his next planned one. Is this strange or odd? To someone who has never done it, it probably seems so. For my husband and I, it's been transformational in our sexual lives. "Our pleasure is our shared mutual pleasure," and it's true.
Dev
Prior to chastity, my husband was having plenty of orgasms--trouble is, they weren't with me. He was alone, using his hand, and looking at some porn. And while he derived his moment of pleasure, there wasn't anything particularly special or memorable about them. They were day-to-day, typical, throwaway masturbation orgasms.
Now, his orgasms are an event. They are special and something to be looked forward to. Anticipation makes them sweet and memorable. Ask any chaste guy--he can probably tell you the exact date when he had his last orgasm and can likely tell you the date of his next planned one. Is this strange or odd? To someone who has never done it, it probably seems so. For my husband and I, it's been transformational in our sexual lives. "Our pleasure is our shared mutual pleasure," and it's true.
Dev
36
@33
You might not want to put your money on the table just yet. I'm not one of them but there are people that practice MC that have orgasms that infrequently. That isn't to say they only have sex that many times a year, they just don't ejaculate. I imagine once I get my device and we get more used to it, I'll be going a month or two between orgasms.
You might not want to put your money on the table just yet. I'm not one of them but there are people that practice MC that have orgasms that infrequently. That isn't to say they only have sex that many times a year, they just don't ejaculate. I imagine once I get my device and we get more used to it, I'll be going a month or two between orgasms.
37
@33:
How is it the chastity that increases the number of orgasms? It's more likely that the men practicing denial are with GGG partners anyway and would have lots of sex even without the kink.
Do you think those men in sexless marriages would start having more sex if they introduced their partners to orgasm denial? These are partners uninterested in sex. Their partners would probably also be uninterested in kinks.
How is it the chastity that increases the number of orgasms? It's more likely that the men practicing denial are with GGG partners anyway and would have lots of sex even without the kink.
Do you think those men in sexless marriages would start having more sex if they introduced their partners to orgasm denial? These are partners uninterested in sex. Their partners would probably also be uninterested in kinks.
38
@31 I think lewlew means that anti-sex is more like kinky chastity than it is the other way around....didn't someone say something earlier about all ducks being birds but not vice versa? Like that.
39
A lot of sexless marriages are due to lack of communication. So in those cases it may mean more orgasms together since chastity tends to help with the communication problems. Chances are the men were masturbating anyway so depending on the frequency of that, they may have more or less orgasms altogether.
40
Dan, I do not know how you do this job. If I had as many self-important complainers in my fan base I'd quit and work nights at Denny's. You work a job that is flagrantly about nothing more than one man's opinion, and because you are the only guy in the public sphere willing to skip being weirded out by kinks everyone comes to you like you're entitled to represent everyone of them exactly how it is. Okay, maybe the cancer thing is inconsistent, but then who would trust you as the sole resource for medical information? An idiot, that's who. You're not an MD or anything close to it, you're a reasonably well-read guy. What if everyone you ever knew that was into chastity was really in it for more orgasms by your analysis? Then that's the answer you were solicited to give because it's YOUR OPINION THEY ASKED FOR. I know you have readers to please, but as a regular reader and listener, I have to say sometimes I wish people would just be thankful they have someone non-judgemental and open about kinks. Furthermore, Dan's a gay monogamous westcoast American social liberal and he basically always has been, if you solicit his opinion, it will inevitably reflect those elements (that's aimed at some people who gripe on the podcast).
And on a mildly related note, ss a bidentified (Punny!) male, I cannot stand the people who gripe to Dan about not being the patron saint of bisexuality. I'm just happy he exists and is willing to condone kink lifestyle. If you don't like how he treats your kink or sexuality, stuff it, it's his opinion and someone asked him for it.
And on a mildly related note, ss a bidentified (Punny!) male, I cannot stand the people who gripe to Dan about not being the patron saint of bisexuality. I'm just happy he exists and is willing to condone kink lifestyle. If you don't like how he treats your kink or sexuality, stuff it, it's his opinion and someone asked him for it.
42
@Cherry Pirate, yes, you're right, the most obvious sign that we're not supposed to give feedback on what Dan says is how we can't leave comments here on the SLOG.
Oh, wait...
Oh, wait...
44
Maybe I'm reading too closely, but I'm sensing a certain contempt for orgasm, or maybe even a whiff of phobia about all those nasty people out there, not denying orgasm, in the statement
"The assumption that the reverse must be true is one of those sad little myths perpetuated by men who have little better to do than type one-handed, venting their frustrations into the ether."
I'm also not so wowed by the statement that chastity is not only about sex--it's also about intimacy. As if other people's sex lives, or other people's kinks, were not also about intimacy. Again, that suggests (to me, to me, this is a "me" statement) a certain dualizing mindset, with "sex" on one side, and "true intimacy" on the other.
I can see why chastity would be empowering and healthy for someone who happens to hold that mindset, but the gratuitous mini-insults towards those who don't share either the kink or the mindset is frankly more off-putting than any kink.
"The assumption that the reverse must be true is one of those sad little myths perpetuated by men who have little better to do than type one-handed, venting their frustrations into the ether."
I'm also not so wowed by the statement that chastity is not only about sex--it's also about intimacy. As if other people's sex lives, or other people's kinks, were not also about intimacy. Again, that suggests (to me, to me, this is a "me" statement) a certain dualizing mindset, with "sex" on one side, and "true intimacy" on the other.
I can see why chastity would be empowering and healthy for someone who happens to hold that mindset, but the gratuitous mini-insults towards those who don't share either the kink or the mindset is frankly more off-putting than any kink.
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