Slog
News & ArtsTuesday, November 2, 2010
Stranger Election Control Board Bill Gates Sr. Concedes the 1098 Fight, Governor Gregoire Shows Signs of Life
Posted by Stranger Election Control Board on Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 9:41 PM
- Bill Gates Sr.
- Governor Gregoire
To 1098 opponents, she said, "If not this, then what? Let's craft that better way." She expressed pride in Washington State, saying we are traditionally progressive. But her words didn't really ring true. She was angry and frustrated and emotional. The SECB wants to see a lot more of this Governor Gregoire; hopefully next time we see her, it won't be during a concession speech.
4
Bill Gates, Sr.
I am now making a public offer here on SLOG.
I will help you write a new Initiative to create fair and just property taxes.
This initiative ( 1098 A ) will rescind all the 4 covenants preventing the governments from assessing and taxing property in Washington fairly.
I would also rollback the Sales Tax to 4 percent or less, and restrict any additional fees, levies and so on beyond the Property (Asset) tax.
As a lawyer your help will be invaluable. And your son can help us write the part where we start to tax Intellectual Property -- same as land.
What do you say, Original Bill?
Let's work to create a fair and equitable property taxes!
5
Why did they decide to get this on the ballot this year? The party in power almost never does well in off-year elections. Maybe if it was on the ballot in 2008 it might have passed, but bringing it this year was a bad idea that set back the effort significantly.
/still voted for it, too bad
/still voted for it, too bad
6
Governor Gregoire,
I heard you were going to Germany to talk about battery cars and that you and BMW are building a battery car plant in Eastern Washington.
Great for jobs, but you know the future is Hydrogen.
I would love to work with you and Bill Gates, Sr to create a Hydrogen Highway in Washington State.
Hydrogen is readily generated by renewable sources -- such as the abundant hydro power of Bonneville.
Let's put the past aside, and step up to the 21st century.
With Hydrogen!
8
Did anybody get video? I'd love to see both. I voted against 1098 - I don't feel like debating it here, but either it's because I'm filthy, stinking rich, or because I don't love anti-democratic laws being pressed by the majority - or, perhaps, both.
Nevertheless I respect both of these folks immensely, and I understand what they were trying to do, and I'd love to see the talks.
Nevertheless I respect both of these folks immensely, and I understand what they were trying to do, and I'd love to see the talks.
9
(1) Here's how to do it: make the income tax bill a revenue neutral replacement, dollar for dollar, of sales tax. People will support an income tax if it's INSTEAD of a sales tax, not IN ADDITION TO. We do need a fair and progressive tax system, as Bill Gates Sr has admirably documented, but this initiative was very flawed.
(2) I'm glad the Governor found her spine, but if she really wants to help the kids she should get her tongue out of the WEA's asscrack.
As an advocate for education reform, I find it galling that the only way we're supposed to be able to help the kids is to throw money at the WEA through the common, but wrong and empirically unjustifiable, mantra of "class size!"
If the Governor really wants to help the kids, take on the WEA and demand merit pay, paying more for math and science teachers, performance based layoffs, and all the other reasonable things that would make talented people go into teaching but that the WEA hates.
Besides, I-1098 wouldn't have given the kids any more money. Anybody think the general fund ed dollars wouldn't go down $1.3b to offset the I-1098 dollars? To pay for roads and tunnels and parks and cops and social services? Show of hands? That's how it's always worked with gambling tax money, and that's how it would have worked here.
Fundamentally, the legislature has gone from spending 50% of it's money on primary ed to 40%. That's a problem with priorities and legislators, not revenue streams.
(2) I'm glad the Governor found her spine, but if she really wants to help the kids she should get her tongue out of the WEA's asscrack.
As an advocate for education reform, I find it galling that the only way we're supposed to be able to help the kids is to throw money at the WEA through the common, but wrong and empirically unjustifiable, mantra of "class size!"
If the Governor really wants to help the kids, take on the WEA and demand merit pay, paying more for math and science teachers, performance based layoffs, and all the other reasonable things that would make talented people go into teaching but that the WEA hates.
Besides, I-1098 wouldn't have given the kids any more money. Anybody think the general fund ed dollars wouldn't go down $1.3b to offset the I-1098 dollars? To pay for roads and tunnels and parks and cops and social services? Show of hands? That's how it's always worked with gambling tax money, and that's how it would have worked here.
Fundamentally, the legislature has gone from spending 50% of it's money on primary ed to 40%. That's a problem with priorities and legislators, not revenue streams.
10
@9, hear hear.
Who does the governor mean by "opponents" of 1098? The nearly 1 million people who voted against it (thus far)? That's your electorate -- be careful who you demonize.
Who does the governor mean by "opponents" of 1098? The nearly 1 million people who voted against it (thus far)? That's your electorate -- be careful who you demonize.
12
I continue to be impressed and honored that the Gates family are members of my community. Truly honored.
13
I'm curious how many opponents of 1098 thought the income tax applied to everyone vs how many knew it only applied to high incomes?
15
"how many knew it only applied to high incomes?"
You mean until Olympia expands it? Smart people knew that.
You mean until Olympia expands it? Smart people knew that.
16
Class size does matter. I have 150 students - 30 students in each class. It is difficult for me to be able to give quality feedback and differentiate for all of those students. My colleagues in private school have 15 in each class - they get paid less, but have less stress. The studies on Value Added Measures (VAMs) that the EdReform groups have so touted actually show just as large of a difference within a teacher's scores than between a teacher's score. See this page for links: http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/8… or see this government report: http://ies.ed.gov/ncee/pubs/20104004/pdf…
I am a Science Teacher and I do not want merit pay. I am highly qualified, and I am National Board Certified. I don't always agree with the Union, BUT I absolutely don't agree with merit pay, either for bringing up test scores (and do test scores = education? that's what the EdReform groups claim - but I absolutely do not agree with it). The recent Vanderbilt study, a 3 year research study, shows that merit pay does not bring up test scores: http://peabody.vanderbilt.edu/NCPI_POINT… Another that I thought was interesting was Daniel Pink's studies on motivation. He wrote a book called Drive about it, and talked about it at the TED talks, here: http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_mot…
What motivates me? Students and helping them succeed and become scientifically literate active citizens who critically consume media and culture. Being trusted as a professional, and not treated like a cog in the machine, which is what is happening more and more. What motivates me - meeting with other highly motivated teachers and on my lunch time talking with what worked with our students and what didn't and why. Looking at student work, working together to solve problems. The problem is- this Education Reform movement is making me more like a cog than an individual.
I do agree with you, Big Sven, that this may not have been the right platform for this, and that the legislature needs to figure out how to make cuts. That reasoning was also why my colleagues and I (who were teachers) voted against the Seattle Schools Levy, though it looks like it is going to pass. We absolutely do not trust those in power, especially after the disastrous state audit, the conflict of interest with a no-bid contract for the MAP testing, and the standardization that says Anatomy and Physiology, Astronomy, Botany Genetics, Ecology, Marine Science, Oceanography 101 (cross credited with the UW), and many other sciences will NOT get credit as science because they aren't Physical Science, Biology, Chemistry, or Physics.
More...
I am a Science Teacher and I do not want merit pay. I am highly qualified, and I am National Board Certified. I don't always agree with the Union, BUT I absolutely don't agree with merit pay, either for bringing up test scores (and do test scores = education? that's what the EdReform groups claim - but I absolutely do not agree with it). The recent Vanderbilt study, a 3 year research study, shows that merit pay does not bring up test scores: http://peabody.vanderbilt.edu/NCPI_POINT… Another that I thought was interesting was Daniel Pink's studies on motivation. He wrote a book called Drive about it, and talked about it at the TED talks, here: http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_mot…
What motivates me? Students and helping them succeed and become scientifically literate active citizens who critically consume media and culture. Being trusted as a professional, and not treated like a cog in the machine, which is what is happening more and more. What motivates me - meeting with other highly motivated teachers and on my lunch time talking with what worked with our students and what didn't and why. Looking at student work, working together to solve problems. The problem is- this Education Reform movement is making me more like a cog than an individual.
I do agree with you, Big Sven, that this may not have been the right platform for this, and that the legislature needs to figure out how to make cuts. That reasoning was also why my colleagues and I (who were teachers) voted against the Seattle Schools Levy, though it looks like it is going to pass. We absolutely do not trust those in power, especially after the disastrous state audit, the conflict of interest with a no-bid contract for the MAP testing, and the standardization that says Anatomy and Physiology, Astronomy, Botany Genetics, Ecology, Marine Science, Oceanography 101 (cross credited with the UW), and many other sciences will NOT get credit as science because they aren't Physical Science, Biology, Chemistry, or Physics.
17
@13 I don't make $200k, but I voted against 1098. Why? Take your pick:
* 1098 had no inflationary index on its limits. At historical inflation rates, in just over 20 years $200k would be the equivalent of $100k in 2010 dollars. You might think that's a long time, but it's shorter than you think.
* There's no limit on how the legislature could adjust the salary cut-offs after the 2-year waiting period for modifying initiatives. The legislature has shown that they're perfectly happy adding taxes, so how can you think they wouldn't adjust this down to $50k or $20k in 2 years?
* There was no corresponding reduction in sales tax. If you're going to try to sell the initiate by complaining about our inherently regressive tax setup in WA (poor people pay 17% of their income in taxes!! !! uu!!), you better address that imbalance. Instead, 1098 reduced property and B&O taxes. Guess who's most going to benefit from those? Yep, the rich. So your "tax the rich!" tax also reduced taxes on the rich while doing nothing for the poor.
* Some day, hopefully soon, I will make over $200k in total compensation. Many people are in the same situation. Think of all of those engineers at Microsoft, Boeing, etc. They may only make $100k in salary, but with bonuses and stock and everything else you can quickly reach $200k without expecting it. 1098 was sold as "tax the rich", hoping that poor people would vote it in over the relatively few "rich". What they didn't expect was people who could look into the future 5-10 years and see themselves being affected by this. So people like me voted "No".
* I'm just a heartless bastard who hates the kids? Or perhaps I realize that the state has no qualms about dipping into earmarked cash. 1098 earmarked this cash for education and health, but as soon as unions decide to vote themselves a pay raise they'd come running for this cash. Be honest about it -- if you want an income tax, put it into the general coffers because that's where it will end up one way or another.
More...
* 1098 had no inflationary index on its limits. At historical inflation rates, in just over 20 years $200k would be the equivalent of $100k in 2010 dollars. You might think that's a long time, but it's shorter than you think.
* There's no limit on how the legislature could adjust the salary cut-offs after the 2-year waiting period for modifying initiatives. The legislature has shown that they're perfectly happy adding taxes, so how can you think they wouldn't adjust this down to $50k or $20k in 2 years?
* There was no corresponding reduction in sales tax. If you're going to try to sell the initiate by complaining about our inherently regressive tax setup in WA (poor people pay 17% of their income in taxes!! !! uu!!), you better address that imbalance. Instead, 1098 reduced property and B&O taxes. Guess who's most going to benefit from those? Yep, the rich. So your "tax the rich!" tax also reduced taxes on the rich while doing nothing for the poor.
* Some day, hopefully soon, I will make over $200k in total compensation. Many people are in the same situation. Think of all of those engineers at Microsoft, Boeing, etc. They may only make $100k in salary, but with bonuses and stock and everything else you can quickly reach $200k without expecting it. 1098 was sold as "tax the rich", hoping that poor people would vote it in over the relatively few "rich". What they didn't expect was people who could look into the future 5-10 years and see themselves being affected by this. So people like me voted "No".
* I'm just a heartless bastard who hates the kids? Or perhaps I realize that the state has no qualms about dipping into earmarked cash. 1098 earmarked this cash for education and health, but as soon as unions decide to vote themselves a pay raise they'd come running for this cash. Be honest about it -- if you want an income tax, put it into the general coffers because that's where it will end up one way or another.
18
@17 This was a trick question right? I think the right answer is: "all of the above"
Nice comment and very well said!
Nice comment and very well said!
19
@9 Big Sven... Nice to see you on Slog again! It's been a while.
Minnesota has been lovely this fall (except for the storm a couple weeks ago with record low barometric pressures -- all my joints and every bone I ever broke was aching).
I agree with you mostly on teachers (especially about math and science), but while the teacher's unions have saved crappy ass teachers, I've also seen them save good teachers that the community didn't care for (I grew up in north Idaho). Dunno... don't have kids, but I gots lotsa nieces & nephews.
Good to see you again, Sven... hope all is well.
Minnesota has been lovely this fall (except for the storm a couple weeks ago with record low barometric pressures -- all my joints and every bone I ever broke was aching).
I agree with you mostly on teachers (especially about math and science), but while the teacher's unions have saved crappy ass teachers, I've also seen them save good teachers that the community didn't care for (I grew up in north Idaho). Dunno... don't have kids, but I gots lotsa nieces & nephews.
Good to see you again, Sven... hope all is well.
22
Thanks, drewl. Fall is the best season in MN, fer shur, especially the indian summer that always occurs some time in Oct / early Nov.
I'm not * back*, in the sense that I'm still too busy to post regularly like the old days, however I'm going to try to keep involved when big stuff goes on. My day job doesn't allow me to express my real feelings about politics, so this is a healthy outlet. But thanks.
I'm not * back*, in the sense that I'm still too busy to post regularly like the old days, however I'm going to try to keep involved when big stuff goes on. My day job doesn't allow me to express my real feelings about politics, so this is a healthy outlet. But thanks.
23
I had State Senator Eric Oemig on my front porch this Fall, going door to door to ask for support. Once I told him I'd voted for him in the primary and would be voting for him in the election, he didn't need to give me a sales pitch any more. So, he asked me if I had any questions or concerns for him since he was right there and available.
I asked him as a state legislator, if the whole Initiative thing here in WA frustrated him. Here he was, part of a body of elected representatives trying to write and pass meaningful legislation with some thought and debate to address actual issues, and every election, here's a whole new raft of retarded, half-scribbled out notions put to a vote of the people amidst multimillion dollar media blitzes to confuse the shit out of them.
After some thought, Senator Oemig said he couldn't agree with me - he told me that the initiative process was likely to be the only way some issues would ever be able to sidestep the political process in Olympia and get enacted, hot button things like an income tax and drug legalization.
So here it is, the morning after, and the income tax initiative failed, a pot legalization initiative was soundly defeated in California (!) and it looks like Senator Oemig was sent packing by all the shitheads who have been waving signs at me during my commute, from 405 overpasses...
I asked him as a state legislator, if the whole Initiative thing here in WA frustrated him. Here he was, part of a body of elected representatives trying to write and pass meaningful legislation with some thought and debate to address actual issues, and every election, here's a whole new raft of retarded, half-scribbled out notions put to a vote of the people amidst multimillion dollar media blitzes to confuse the shit out of them.
After some thought, Senator Oemig said he couldn't agree with me - he told me that the initiative process was likely to be the only way some issues would ever be able to sidestep the political process in Olympia and get enacted, hot button things like an income tax and drug legalization.
So here it is, the morning after, and the income tax initiative failed, a pot legalization initiative was soundly defeated in California (!) and it looks like Senator Oemig was sent packing by all the shitheads who have been waving signs at me during my commute, from 405 overpasses...
24
I voted against 1098 BECAUSE 1098 DOESN'T TAX THE RICH! It taxes the well off. It taxes the small business owners that employ thousands of Washingtonians.
These "rich" that are so reviled do not pay income tax like you and I. Bill Gates does not rely on income. The truly rich (CEOs of major corporations etc..) get their money from capital gains!! As long as they don't short sell, this is taxed at 15%.
Also, if you look at states without and income tax that put an income tax in place, their economies shrink markedly and unemploment goes up.
This was ill-conceived, poorly researched, and would have hurt the state and already bad economy.
I do think that schools deserve better funding but this was simply the worst way to go about it.
These "rich" that are so reviled do not pay income tax like you and I. Bill Gates does not rely on income. The truly rich (CEOs of major corporations etc..) get their money from capital gains!! As long as they don't short sell, this is taxed at 15%.
Also, if you look at states without and income tax that put an income tax in place, their economies shrink markedly and unemploment goes up.
This was ill-conceived, poorly researched, and would have hurt the state and already bad economy.
I do think that schools deserve better funding but this was simply the worst way to go about it.
25
I voted against 1098 BECAUSE 1098 DOESN'T TAX THE RICH! It taxes the well off. It taxes the small business owners that employ thousands of Washingtonians.
These "rich" that are so reviled do not pay income tax like you and I. Bill Gates does not rely on income. The truly rich (CEOs of major corporations etc..) get their money from capital gains!! As long as they don't short sell, this is taxed at 15%.
Also, if you look at states without and income tax that put an income tax in place, their economies shrink markedly and unemploment goes up.
This was ill-conceived, poorly researched, and would have hurt the state and already bad economy.
I do think that schools deserve better funding but this was simply the worst way to go about it.
These "rich" that are so reviled do not pay income tax like you and I. Bill Gates does not rely on income. The truly rich (CEOs of major corporations etc..) get their money from capital gains!! As long as they don't short sell, this is taxed at 15%.
Also, if you look at states without and income tax that put an income tax in place, their economies shrink markedly and unemploment goes up.
This was ill-conceived, poorly researched, and would have hurt the state and already bad economy.
I do think that schools deserve better funding but this was simply the worst way to go about it.
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