Slog
News & ArtsSunday, October 17, 2010
Homo / Religion Buttsore Bible College Student to Dan: Hurting My Feelings Is Unconstitutional!
Posted by Dan Savage on Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 2:56 PM
From the mailbox...
"A bullied straight kid goes home to a parent who is on his side. A bullied gay kid goes home to more bullying and is dragged off to a church for more bullying from the pulpit," Savage said.I cannot believe you said this, and the emotions I am feeling from this and the psychological affects are almost overwhelming. I am a Christian who attends a very Biblical-based Bible Church here in Portland, Oregon, and this is far from the truth. While some Church's may preach from the pulpit against homosexuality, the general consensus among Bible Church's is they do not. We for the most part really don't care what you people do. You live your lifestyle, and we live ours. I am 36 years old, and have been in the Church my entire life, and I have never, ever once, had a preacher preach from the pulpit bullying gays. Matter of fact, just a few years ago, our choir director went to our pastor and told him he had an inclination of being gay, and understood where the Church stood on the issue, and respected it, so he and the pastor hugged, cried together, and he went his way, and we hope that he is doing well where ever he is.
I'm not sure where you are getting your information, but it is mainly false. Some radical Church's may bully from the pulpit, but they are the few.
I would ask that you make a public apology for this statement for offending me, and the Church. I am getting sick and tired of the finger pointing at the Church when it is just a few who make it look bad for the masses. I am also considering contacting the ACLU and getting legal advice to see if this is deemed Hate Speech, because your statement affects me as I am in Bible College and looking at a Pastoral Ministry life ahead. This type of speech concerns me, and should be done away with. I look forward to hearing from you real soon to get this resolved.
George S.
Where to start?
I said that, George—you can believe it.
Moving on: the constitution doesn't protect us from having our feelings hurt. If it did, it would be illegal for "Christians" (in quotes to distinguish the fake ones from the real ones) wouldn't be allowed to run around telling gay kids that their magic sky friend Jesus is going to send them to hell. But it is legal for "Christians" to say that—even to children—and it should be legal.
And anti-gay preachers are hardly a figment of my imagination. And while you claim that your pastor doesn't condemn gays and lesbians from his wee pulpit, your church's organist—why is it always the organist?—nevertheless felt compelled to part ways with your church after he decided to come out about his gay "inclinations." (Or was he sent packing once he came out? Only Pastor Hugs knows for sure.) Good for your ex-organist, George, because he can do better than your bible church. But the gay kids in your congregation—and there are gay kids your congregation—don't enjoy the same freedom of worship. Your organist could come out and leave and become one of "you people" (lovingly put!), but the gay kids at your church probably aren't in a position to 1. come out to mom and dad and 2. tell mom and dad that they're not going to be accompanying to church on Sundays anymore.
Okay, gotta run—plane to catch. He's all yours now, Slog.
3
CHURCHES MOTHERFUCKER, NOT CHURCH'S. You're a 36 year-old bible college student yet you write like a brainless man-child (Oh wait...). Please go bring this up with the ACLU and make sure to videotape them laughing you out of the office to prove your claims of heterophobic anti-christian bigotry. Good luck with that.
5
This trend of the overwhelming majority (Christians) acting like they're a persecuted minority is a dangerous one. The Germans were supposedly "under attack" by the Jews at one point in time, too.
Still, these letters from butthurt Christians are a good sign that we're getting through. Not every one of these guys will come over to our side (more likely if we're still confrontational) but a lot of them are being challenged to reconcile Jesus' love with Christianity's hate, and love will win out for many of these Christians.
We are winning.
Still, these letters from butthurt Christians are a good sign that we're getting through. Not every one of these guys will come over to our side (more likely if we're still confrontational) but a lot of them are being challenged to reconcile Jesus' love with Christianity's hate, and love will win out for many of these Christians.
We are winning.
6
If that hurt your feelings, how's this? You are a brainwashed little twit who believes alot of nonsense and it was time you woke up from your fantasy world.
7
George, you're wasting your breath.
Dan is a bigoted hater.
They seldom change.
He was raised a Catholic and spends his spare time cruising the internet for misbehaving "youth pastors". That is his exposure to "Christianity". He is ignorant of and/or willfully ignores the good that religion in general and Christianity in particular do in the lives of millions of people.
Dan doesn't believe anyone in America should believe any differently than him about homosexuality. He doesn't think people should be allowed to believe and worship as they choose. Dan wants to force all religious thought, belief and practice to conform to his radical homochauvinism. His ideas on homosexual marriage are extreme even within the homosexual community and the Democratic Party ignores his radical militant "agenda".
Dan is a hateful hypocrite, and, yes, he does engage in hate speech (substitute Arab or Black or Jew or Muslim or even homosexual in the place of 'Christian' in Dan's screeds and sure the ACLU and Southern Poverty Law Center would be beating his door down but you surely realize Christians are fair targets for bigotry and hate among "enlightened" liberals...)
Don't waste your time looking for apologies.
If you are comfortable and confident in your beliefs you have something Dan never will have.
Let it be enough.
Dan is a bigoted hater.
They seldom change.
He was raised a Catholic and spends his spare time cruising the internet for misbehaving "youth pastors". That is his exposure to "Christianity". He is ignorant of and/or willfully ignores the good that religion in general and Christianity in particular do in the lives of millions of people.
Dan doesn't believe anyone in America should believe any differently than him about homosexuality. He doesn't think people should be allowed to believe and worship as they choose. Dan wants to force all religious thought, belief and practice to conform to his radical homochauvinism. His ideas on homosexual marriage are extreme even within the homosexual community and the Democratic Party ignores his radical militant "agenda".
Dan is a hateful hypocrite, and, yes, he does engage in hate speech (substitute Arab or Black or Jew or Muslim or even homosexual in the place of 'Christian' in Dan's screeds and sure the ACLU and Southern Poverty Law Center would be beating his door down but you surely realize Christians are fair targets for bigotry and hate among "enlightened" liberals...)
Don't waste your time looking for apologies.
If you are comfortable and confident in your beliefs you have something Dan never will have.
Let it be enough.
8
Tell you what George, why don't you go ahead and ask the gay members of your congregation, especially the gay teens, if they feel like churches bully them.
What's that? There aren't any gays in your congregation? Odd, because gays are a certain percentage of the population. Ah, it's probably that they aren't open about their "inclination" in the church. Now why would that be, given that you've hotly stated that they are treated lovingly without bullying? It can't possibly be that gay teens in your congregation hide their sexuality for fear of rejection, of being told they chose to be that way and it's a sin and they should change something they cannot, now can it? It can't be that gay adults run away from your congregation because they, *gasp* feel unwelcome?
What's that? There aren't any gays in your congregation? Odd, because gays are a certain percentage of the population. Ah, it's probably that they aren't open about their "inclination" in the church. Now why would that be, given that you've hotly stated that they are treated lovingly without bullying? It can't possibly be that gay teens in your congregation hide their sexuality for fear of rejection, of being told they chose to be that way and it's a sin and they should change something they cannot, now can it? It can't be that gay adults run away from your congregation because they, *gasp* feel unwelcome?
9
4 ...cause it's right there in the Bill of rights that poor spellers are not entitled to any liberties or freedoms.....
10
Weak trolls are weak. George S' spelling and grammar makes my brain hurt, but his sad protestations induce laughter.
12
George has so many reasons to be on his knees thanking Dan. For starters:
1. For giving him something to feel persecuted about. Religious types love to feel persecuted. They can't get enough of it. It's how they know they're righteous.
2. Gay marriage hastens the rapture. The more sinful the world is, the sooner Jesus will teleport the righteous to heaven.
1. For giving him something to feel persecuted about. Religious types love to feel persecuted. They can't get enough of it. It's how they know they're righteous.
2. Gay marriage hastens the rapture. The more sinful the world is, the sooner Jesus will teleport the righteous to heaven.
14
so Dan,
How is it 'spam' to point out that mainstream Democraps and supporters of President Obama boo and shout down homosexual activists?
On a post where Dan gloats about the homosexuals telling America to Fuck This and Fuck That it is spam to point out the Democraps telling homosexuals to Fuck Themselves (hahahaha)?
Really?
We are worried about your chronic fear of and running from unpleasant reality, Dan.
It isn't healthy.
Sure it's your blog and you can delete Obama's account and pull posts that make you look bad but that doesn't change the reality.
We're concerned for you, Dan.
Facing the Truth is a necessary first step to getting better.
Don't fear the Truth.
Embrace it.
How is it 'spam' to point out that mainstream Democraps and supporters of President Obama boo and shout down homosexual activists?
On a post where Dan gloats about the homosexuals telling America to Fuck This and Fuck That it is spam to point out the Democraps telling homosexuals to Fuck Themselves (hahahaha)?
Really?
We are worried about your chronic fear of and running from unpleasant reality, Dan.
It isn't healthy.
Sure it's your blog and you can delete Obama's account and pull posts that make you look bad but that doesn't change the reality.
We're concerned for you, Dan.
Facing the Truth is a necessary first step to getting better.
Don't fear the Truth.
Embrace it.
15
What a cry-baby. Please, George, go to the ACLU - an organization you probably dispise most of the time - so that they can tell you that speaking the truth isn't "Hate Speech".
You want some Hate Speech? How about this: Christians are all fucking idiots and should be forcibly be 'deprogrammed' so that they see the truth and learn that there is no fucking God. Jesus was a gay Jew who died 2,000 years ago and was not the 'son of god' and Paul is the equavlent of Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard in that he made up his own stupid religon as a scam. Ooops, still protected speech, damnit.
Sorry - I guess I'm just no good at the "Hate Speech" thing.
You want some Hate Speech? How about this: Christians are all fucking idiots and should be forcibly be 'deprogrammed' so that they see the truth and learn that there is no fucking God. Jesus was a gay Jew who died 2,000 years ago and was not the 'son of god' and Paul is the equavlent of Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard in that he made up his own stupid religon as a scam. Ooops, still protected speech, damnit.
Sorry - I guess I'm just no good at the "Hate Speech" thing.
17
15
you seem bitter.
did your special friend give you aids then dump you?
many boys in your position find suicide appealing...
you seem bitter.
did your special friend give you aids then dump you?
many boys in your position find suicide appealing...
18
"Christians" long ago felt it was their duty to burn humans alive at the stake in order to save them from eternal hell-fire. THEY started it, Gay Americans will stop it. Some one is going to have their feelings hurt (boo dam hoo) yet it's the Gay people who have lost their lives in this fight, not ONE "Christian" has lost their life while killing Gay people. To that poor poor picked upon Christian, he can go to hell, only I don't believe there is such a place.
19
George, may I introduce you to PZ Myers? He'll explain your fallacies to you.
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/
20
15
ps
one small correction-
most likely George, like all Real Americans, despises the ACLU ALL of the time...
ps
one small correction-
most likely George, like all Real Americans, despises the ACLU ALL of the time...
21
18
How many homosexual were killed by homophobes last year, was it four (4)?
Compared to 14,300 who died from AIDS some other homosexual gave them?
Seems you have met the enemy; and he is you....
How many homosexual were killed by homophobes last year, was it four (4)?
Compared to 14,300 who died from AIDS some other homosexual gave them?
Seems you have met the enemy; and he is you....
22
I can only hope your bible study goes better than your study of the Constitution, George.
You say the only out gay person you know about in your church (the organist) left. I'll assume there aren't any other out gay people in your congregation. If so, then it is obvious that even if there is no glaring anti-gay sermons, your church is nevertheless an unwelcoming place for gay people. Your church may not actively preach hate from the pulpit, but it passively exudes an unwelcome atmosphere.
Fact: There are gay kids in your congregation. If your church makes them feel unwelcome, unloved, and unworthy, then your church is contributing to the suicidal thoughts they are having. If they kill themselves, your church is partly to blame.
If that hurts your feelings, too bad.
You say the only out gay person you know about in your church (the organist) left. I'll assume there aren't any other out gay people in your congregation. If so, then it is obvious that even if there is no glaring anti-gay sermons, your church is nevertheless an unwelcoming place for gay people. Your church may not actively preach hate from the pulpit, but it passively exudes an unwelcome atmosphere.
Fact: There are gay kids in your congregation. If your church makes them feel unwelcome, unloved, and unworthy, then your church is contributing to the suicidal thoughts they are having. If they kill themselves, your church is partly to blame.
If that hurts your feelings, too bad.
23
Dan, did you get the memo from Obama and his supporters this weekend?
it was FUCK YOU.
you can quote them on that.....
it was FUCK YOU.
you can quote them on that.....
24
They don't care what "you people" do, as long as you do it far away from them. If you come out as gay, or even just with an "inclination", you get a nice hug, but you have to go away and not come back. Some acceptance. George is dumb.
25
While I certainly don't agree with much of what this writer says, I can say that I went to a smalltown church in the midwest, and I don't recall ever being preached to about the evils of homosexuality, and I think it's probably accurate that most churches do not bring it up. But certainly the condemnation of gays is almost always attributed to what the bible says, and there are preachers who are very vocal, and activist in ensuring no advancements of gay acceptance. The fact that the organist left makes it clear this church has a DADT policy, which is why they hugged and said goodbye, and any gay kid would get the message: You are welcome until the day you come out, and then you are no longer an acceptable human being to worship beside the rest of us, who BTW are all sinners too. Gay is just the unacceptale sin. It results in shunning. It would not have, at the church I attended. I don't think.
26
I think you should ask George what the pastor would have said, and what the rest of the congregants would have said, if the organist in question had said instead "I'm gay, gay, gay, but I'm planning on staying here in the church and playing the organ every Sunday, is that cool?" If he's still sat there three, four, five weeks from now, what are people going to say to him? If he further says "there's no contradiction at all between being Christian and being gay", what would you say then, George? Are you SURE you'd still be so understanding?
Cause I'm thinking not.
Cause I'm thinking not.
27
Hey, George if this type of speech concerns you then you have the option of not reading it or writing another letter in protest. What you do not have is the ability to stop this sort of speech or make anyone pay consequences for such speech. In fact blasphemy is not against the law and it is not illegal for someone to hurt your feelings. Religion does not occupy some special place that requires people to watch what we say. In fact we can mock your beliefs and your deity at will and with legal impunity. Frankly your feelings don't amount to a hill of beans compared to the vile hate spewed by bigoted pastors who spread their biblical blather every Sunday and the damage they inflict on gay youth.
28
So...if he's going to a "Bible Church", he's probably going to an independent nondenominational evangelical church descended from the anabaptist/mennonite tradition. In this tradition it's actually quite possible that he hasn't heard any anti-gay sermons, and any anti-gay content that he's heard is probably very light on the hellfire. They're not so interested in talking about hell, or using fear of hell as a motivator.
Obviously he's an idiot to think this is enough to exempt his church from criticism. But his biggest mistake (aside from his trouble with apostrophes and ignorance of constitutional law and idiotic belief that opposition to homosexuality isn't an violence by definition), is that he's universalizing his personal experience with Christianity and assuming that what he's seen is how it is pretty much everywhere. "Bible Colleges" make this problem even worse.
And yet secular folks are often plagued with the same issue--the illusion that Christianity is a monolithic entity. This has never been the case, and will never be the case.
If both the religious and the non-religious would cultivate more religious literacy, we'd probably be much further along in achieving progressive change.
Hey everyone, watch this awesome informative PBS miniseries http://www.pbs.org/godinamerica/
Obviously he's an idiot to think this is enough to exempt his church from criticism. But his biggest mistake (aside from his trouble with apostrophes and ignorance of constitutional law and idiotic belief that opposition to homosexuality isn't an violence by definition), is that he's universalizing his personal experience with Christianity and assuming that what he's seen is how it is pretty much everywhere. "Bible Colleges" make this problem even worse.
And yet secular folks are often plagued with the same issue--the illusion that Christianity is a monolithic entity. This has never been the case, and will never be the case.
If both the religious and the non-religious would cultivate more religious literacy, we'd probably be much further along in achieving progressive change.
Hey everyone, watch this awesome informative PBS miniseries http://www.pbs.org/godinamerica/
29
Hate speech is protected by the First Amendment.
Dan's comments are accurate -- I don't consider them hate speech -- and protected by the Constitution. Hate speech coming from churches is also protected (although we have the right to point out that it's factually and morally wrong.)
I do look forward to the day when open displays of anti-gay bigotry are considered social and professional suicide, just like anti-black and anti-Jewish bigotry are nowadays. It doesn't mean there are no racists, but more and more racists are staying in the closet, where they belong. Similarly, homophobes can be as homophobic as they like in the privacy of their own homes, I just don't want them to shove their perverted and hate-filled lifestyle in my face. And I don't like they idea that children might get the idea that homophobia and hate is a valid and acceptable lifestyle choice.
Dan's comments are accurate -- I don't consider them hate speech -- and protected by the Constitution. Hate speech coming from churches is also protected (although we have the right to point out that it's factually and morally wrong.)
I do look forward to the day when open displays of anti-gay bigotry are considered social and professional suicide, just like anti-black and anti-Jewish bigotry are nowadays. It doesn't mean there are no racists, but more and more racists are staying in the closet, where they belong. Similarly, homophobes can be as homophobic as they like in the privacy of their own homes, I just don't want them to shove their perverted and hate-filled lifestyle in my face. And I don't like they idea that children might get the idea that homophobia and hate is a valid and acceptable lifestyle choice.
30
George S.
I'm glad to hear that you have never had to endure one of those sermons. I wish I could say the same. I can't though. I've endured those sermons. Actually, I take that back. I am glad to have been exposed to it, because it was part of the shake down I needed to knock the scales from my eyes. I needed to get off the fence. I needed to see that bullies do come dressed as pastors. Those sermons, they do happen in Portland, Oregon.
I'm glad to hear that you have never had to endure one of those sermons. I wish I could say the same. I can't though. I've endured those sermons. Actually, I take that back. I am glad to have been exposed to it, because it was part of the shake down I needed to knock the scales from my eyes. I needed to get off the fence. I needed to see that bullies do come dressed as pastors. Those sermons, they do happen in Portland, Oregon.
31
Personally I don't get religion, but many people seem to feel the need to beleive in such things. Perhaps Christian bashing is politically unwise because it alienates to many people.
32
@25 - I went to a church in the midwest for a short period of time. At one point during church announcements, the member giving announcements that day introduced himself: "Hi. I'm Elton. Kind of like Elton John, minus the lifestyle."
The church cheered at his joke. I never went back.
The church cheered at his joke. I never went back.
33
I could hardly get past the first sentence: "the psychological effects are almost overwhelming."
Sheesh, what a drama queen.
Sheesh, what a drama queen.
34
You know what George, you are right. You deserve an apology.
I apologize for having attended church alongside people just like you for years without challenging their views on homosexuality.
I apologize for every time I bit my tongue when someone like you said "those people" when referring to *any* other group, and said nothing.
I apologize never challenging the 3rd-grade biblical literalist theological understanding of the majority of the Christians around me.
I apologize for thinking that just because no one preached bigotry from the pulpit, *my* church was welcoming to everyone, without paying attention to the intolerance around me.
Maybe if people like me had not been so determined to avoid conflict and discomfort at Church, people like you would not be so oblivious you'd believe that the situation you describe at your church is at all healthy or acceptable.
I'm very, VERY sorry about that, and promise to never, ever just sit back quietly again.
I apologize for having attended church alongside people just like you for years without challenging their views on homosexuality.
I apologize for every time I bit my tongue when someone like you said "those people" when referring to *any* other group, and said nothing.
I apologize never challenging the 3rd-grade biblical literalist theological understanding of the majority of the Christians around me.
I apologize for thinking that just because no one preached bigotry from the pulpit, *my* church was welcoming to everyone, without paying attention to the intolerance around me.
Maybe if people like me had not been so determined to avoid conflict and discomfort at Church, people like you would not be so oblivious you'd believe that the situation you describe at your church is at all healthy or acceptable.
I'm very, VERY sorry about that, and promise to never, ever just sit back quietly again.
35
Remember that four step sequence "first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win? I guess we missed a possible stage - "then they whine a lot".
36
@28: I agree that secularists too can fall into the trap of seeing religious groups as monolithic. And I believe it's in our best interest if everyone had to take a world religions class in school, just for some baseline knowledge since religions influence so much human behavior around the world. I'm definitely glad there are informed progressive like you out there, Kevin. But at some point you realize all religions are made up bullshit, and it makes just as much sense to study the mythology of Tolkien as it does that of the trillion different denominations of Christianity. Any belief system not based on evidence and that actively discourages the questioning of its axioms is contemptible.
Sometimes you win people over by being better at biblical literacy tests than they are, and sometimes by pointing out just how fucking dumb they are. I'm ok with having multiple strategies.
Sometimes you win people over by being better at biblical literacy tests than they are, and sometimes by pointing out just how fucking dumb they are. I'm ok with having multiple strategies.
37
I am a Christian who attends a very Biblical-based Bible Church
It's a Biblical-based Bible Church. Which is great. Because those Bible Churches that were based on The Joy Of Cooking never really took off.
Now we know where Andrew Shirvell is spending his leave of absence: as a really dim-witted moron in Oregon.
It's a Biblical-based Bible Church. Which is great. Because those Bible Churches that were based on The Joy Of Cooking never really took off.
Now we know where Andrew Shirvell is spending his leave of absence: as a really dim-witted moron in Oregon.
38
Yeah I loved the 'those people' line. What would Jesus say, George, what would Jesus say. That line alone reveals the bigoted elephant in the room.
It's great that your church doesn't openly persecute gays... But you really can't be so shortsighted to not think that others do. I went to more than a few churches in my youth, and most didn't have a very good stance towards gays. I've never heard an entire sermon against gays, but I've definitely small stories and little comments against the 'lifestyle'. The fact that your organist left because 'he understood where the church stood on the issue' is a pretty blatant admission that your church does in fact look down on gays, and that they're not one of the community. Christ loved everyone and accepted everyone - your pastor should have told him to stay instead of telling the organist he understood why he left.
Bitching at Dan isn't going to change the reputation Christianity has - talk to your pastor and others in your faith about this.
It's great that your church doesn't openly persecute gays... But you really can't be so shortsighted to not think that others do. I went to more than a few churches in my youth, and most didn't have a very good stance towards gays. I've never heard an entire sermon against gays, but I've definitely small stories and little comments against the 'lifestyle'. The fact that your organist left because 'he understood where the church stood on the issue' is a pretty blatant admission that your church does in fact look down on gays, and that they're not one of the community. Christ loved everyone and accepted everyone - your pastor should have told him to stay instead of telling the organist he understood why he left.
Bitching at Dan isn't going to change the reputation Christianity has - talk to your pastor and others in your faith about this.
39
So with no apparent irony *whatsoever* he relates the story of the only gay person he knows of in his church a) revealing his orientation and b) promptly LEAVING? To try and convince me how gay friendly his church is?
I wonder if he thinks his church is gay positive just because they didn't stone the guy outright or something.
What the hell are they teaching kids in lieu of critical thinking these days??
I wonder if he thinks his church is gay positive just because they didn't stone the guy outright or something.
What the hell are they teaching kids in lieu of critical thinking these days??
40
#21 Not the same thing at all. Please do try to keep up. One is a religious community going out of it's way NOT to be fishers of men, but instead be hunters of Witches or vilifiers of whomever they don't like, open warfare against "evil" as they see it.
Gay men in the 70s and 80s that contracted HIV and might have passed it on had no idea what was killing them nor what was being passed on until it was too late. It's NOT the same at all. There was NO concerted organized movement.
Gay men in the 70s and 80s that contracted HIV and might have passed it on had no idea what was killing them nor what was being passed on until it was too late. It's NOT the same at all. There was NO concerted organized movement.
42
I think George missed the point of Dan's first letter. The point was to be challenged, offended, and hurt. The point was to question your own ideals of love and acceptance. The point was also to empower those "other" or "real" Christians to take their church back and create a community of tolerance and acceptance and not of hate. It was supposed to be a big sobering slap to the face, maybe even an act of tough love.
43
@40
70s and 80s?!
are you being ironic?
20% (TWENTY- one in five...) of homosexuals TODAY have AIDS.
Homosexuals TODAY get and give AIDS 44X as much as heterosexuals.
55% of all new AIDS cases TODAY are homosexual men.
In spite of 30 years of education and "outreach" homosexuals have AIDS more than ever and kill each other by the TENS of THOUSANDS every year.
Please do try to keep up.
Asshole.
Whining because you think someone isn't a "good" Christian and blaming someone-ANYONE- else for ANYTHING is FUCKING MORONIC....
70s and 80s?!
are you being ironic?
20% (TWENTY- one in five...) of homosexuals TODAY have AIDS.
Homosexuals TODAY get and give AIDS 44X as much as heterosexuals.
55% of all new AIDS cases TODAY are homosexual men.
In spite of 30 years of education and "outreach" homosexuals have AIDS more than ever and kill each other by the TENS of THOUSANDS every year.
Please do try to keep up.
Asshole.
Whining because you think someone isn't a "good" Christian and blaming someone-ANYONE- else for ANYTHING is FUCKING MORONIC....
46
wow. The Catholic church does a lot of shit wrong (like most other churches), but at least they require their priests to be able to FORM GRAMMATICALLY CORRECT SENTENCES.
47
Dan....man you should write a column about how it is ok to be gay and Christian. Essentially I think you bully Christians to a point that gays who want to be Christian feel even more excluded and depressed. So...it's cool to bash the hardliners....but I'd love to see some more validation of gays who want to be Christian. The kids that are stuck in a harsh religious environment want to see a way forward that doesn't include rejecting their religion. To some, religion is just as much a part of them as being gay. The bottom line: help the kids that love religion and the same sex.
48
So, I have a question to put to every Christian out there. When's the last time you heard a preacher say to homosexuals as a group that god loves you and it's fine to be yourselves and you're not going to hell because of who you love or what you do to them? Because I think that'd make national news and I haven't heard jack-shit.
When THAT happens I think Dan might be happy with a preacher.
When THAT happens I think Dan might be happy with a preacher.
49
@39 - In lieu of critical thinking, these days they are teaching the kids nothing. And 'No Child Left Behind', with its radical re-engineering of school curricula and emphasis on teaching to the tests, simply reinforces the shift away from logical and rational thought processes. The younger people at my office are great at getting facts right, but when they have to discuss something from the facts and draw a conclusion they're helpless, and it's painful to watch them because nearly all of them have advanced degrees.
50
@37 "Because those Bible Churches that were based on The Joy Of Cooking never really took off."
Yeah, but their bake sales ROCKED.
Late to the thread, and others have said what I would have, and more coherently, so, I'll just add: Getting on ANOTHER plane? Jeez, Dan, one of these days you should investigate the concept of resting....
Yeah, but their bake sales ROCKED.
Late to the thread, and others have said what I would have, and more coherently, so, I'll just add: Getting on ANOTHER plane? Jeez, Dan, one of these days you should investigate the concept of resting....
51
You'd think that people who worship a guy who literally got crucified for telling people "love thy neighbor as if he were yourself" would have a sense of perspective about what "persecution" means. Nope.
52
silly gays....
it is so precious when they start talking about god.
'God loves you'
is NOT the same as
'whatever you want to do is OK'...
God loves us all.
We all make mistakes and fall short.
Repentance is available if we will shed our sins.
If we refuse to do that we pay the price of our sins.
God still loves us.
But that won't keep us out of hell.
We all have the power to choose what we will do and be.
Choose wisely.
(sorry. the old
"don't send me to hell because of what I AM whaaaa"
won't cut it.
repeat:
personal responsibility.
you own it whether you recognize it or not.
you decide what you'll do and BE.
Choose wisely.
it is so precious when they start talking about god.
'God loves you'
is NOT the same as
'whatever you want to do is OK'...
God loves us all.
We all make mistakes and fall short.
Repentance is available if we will shed our sins.
If we refuse to do that we pay the price of our sins.
God still loves us.
But that won't keep us out of hell.
We all have the power to choose what we will do and be.
Choose wisely.
(sorry. the old
"don't send me to hell because of what I AM whaaaa"
won't cut it.
repeat:
personal responsibility.
you own it whether you recognize it or not.
you decide what you'll do and BE.
Choose wisely.
55
Okay, hatespeech.
Please show me chapter and verse of where, exactly, Dan's words incite violence? Where they are fanning the flames of viciousness, or giving legions of people of whatever stripe the moral justification to go beat the crap out of christians?
Is he calling you murder-loving (because you worship and extol some man who was brutally, viciously executed), or child-raping (catholic priests), or pig eating goy? Oh, wait, none of those really stick, because THERE ARE NO COMMON, INGRAINED, OFFENSIVE, AND SAID OUT-OF-HAND INSULTS FOR CHRISTIANS.
There's nothing for christians IN COMMON AMERICAN USAGE that carries anywhere NEAR the same spiritual weight as fag, dyke, nigger, spic, kyke, slant, chink. There's no christian bargaining equivalent to jewing down, there's nothing remotely close to a christian hat to match raghead.
Okay, moving along. Did Dan call you in your home, and threaten to hurt you? Assault you? Smash your things? Did he tell you that you should commit suicide, because you're not worth walking on the earth? Spit on you? No? Okay, did he say on radio or TV that you deserved to be beaten? That you were inherently evil? How about that you were the gravest threat possible to society?
None of that happened. I've seen a bunch of interviews, heard on the radio, read a few. He's consistently called out BAD BEHAVIOUR, and said that gay children committing suicide was a direct consequence of hate-speech from the pulpit inciting gay-bashing, exclusion, and violence.
So put on your big boy underoos, have a good look at yourself and your congregation, and make it the place you claim it to be.
Please show me chapter and verse of where, exactly, Dan's words incite violence? Where they are fanning the flames of viciousness, or giving legions of people of whatever stripe the moral justification to go beat the crap out of christians?
Is he calling you murder-loving (because you worship and extol some man who was brutally, viciously executed), or child-raping (catholic priests), or pig eating goy? Oh, wait, none of those really stick, because THERE ARE NO COMMON, INGRAINED, OFFENSIVE, AND SAID OUT-OF-HAND INSULTS FOR CHRISTIANS.
There's nothing for christians IN COMMON AMERICAN USAGE that carries anywhere NEAR the same spiritual weight as fag, dyke, nigger, spic, kyke, slant, chink. There's no christian bargaining equivalent to jewing down, there's nothing remotely close to a christian hat to match raghead.
Okay, moving along. Did Dan call you in your home, and threaten to hurt you? Assault you? Smash your things? Did he tell you that you should commit suicide, because you're not worth walking on the earth? Spit on you? No? Okay, did he say on radio or TV that you deserved to be beaten? That you were inherently evil? How about that you were the gravest threat possible to society?
None of that happened. I've seen a bunch of interviews, heard on the radio, read a few. He's consistently called out BAD BEHAVIOUR, and said that gay children committing suicide was a direct consequence of hate-speech from the pulpit inciting gay-bashing, exclusion, and violence.
So put on your big boy underoos, have a good look at yourself and your congregation, and make it the place you claim it to be.
56
53
btw there's a lot of truth in your #2 @12.
but the rapture crowd gets it wrong.
the wicked will fry and sizzle.
the good guys will be left behind.
but yeah, we're getting there fast.
btw there's a lot of truth in your #2 @12.
but the rapture crowd gets it wrong.
the wicked will fry and sizzle.
the good guys will be left behind.
but yeah, we're getting there fast.
57
@48 I've heard precisely that, repeatedly, insistently and consistently, from the likes of Desmond Tutu and many like him. BTW I'm an atheist, non-believing, Christianity-is-silly, kinda guy - but there ARE Christians saying exactly what you wish to hear them say. Some really do behave like Christians. I'm fond of an anecdote describing how an atheist, on meeting Tutu said rather stridently "I don't believe in god" Tutu replied, in complete good cheer and meaning it the most generous sense "don't worry, he believes in you" It might make some sense to stop painting a whole group with the same brush - that's bigotry - just as surely as "Christians" painting all gays the same.
58
@48 - I'm not a Christian, but my dad is. He's completely unequivocal about supporting and accepting me. He has a friend from church whom I don't care for (and who I'm sure doesn't care for me), but my dad has never gone along with any of the bigoted, asshole things his friend says. He's even working on getting his congregation in Bothell to declare themselves "open and affirming", which might even drive off the one or two bigots there.
Ultimately, what the church says is of little concern to me, but I've always felt welcome there and really appreciate the support from my parents.
Ultimately, what the church says is of little concern to me, but I've always felt welcome there and really appreciate the support from my parents.
59
When pro-gay christian churches attack homophobia as loudly as the antis promote it, I'll give some thought to this butthole's feelings. Until then, fuck him.
60
The magic of the supremacy of science over poorly-studied religion is this: science is working on -- and will find -- a cure for HIV/AIDS. That's a given. They will never in any foreseeable future, however, find a pill that cures stupid.
LGBT folks, no matter in what defined incarnation they were in -- gays, queers, sodomites, buggerers, two-spirits, horny tribesmen, libertines in France, married men in middle ages europe, etc. -- have existed to a very healthy lifespan for the bulk of human history. Condemnation spurred on by a mere blip in human history is the sort of "here comes the letdown" thinking that makes frothing mad turn to apocalyptic sadness.
"Oh my god, the HIV/AIDS epidemic in the gay community", yes, yes, we get it, it's red meat for haters. Lots of people get it, but for those who do, those who watch and those who condemn, it makes very little difference in the fundamental facts of one's ultimate demise and the ultimate defeat of the virus itself. Not to mention the irrelevance of the "HIV/AIDS is punishment for being gay or having too much sex" argument.
You will all die someday, and HIV/AIDS will have its cure someday. The end*.
Now who wants tacos?
*unless we get hit by an asteroid
LGBT folks, no matter in what defined incarnation they were in -- gays, queers, sodomites, buggerers, two-spirits, horny tribesmen, libertines in France, married men in middle ages europe, etc. -- have existed to a very healthy lifespan for the bulk of human history. Condemnation spurred on by a mere blip in human history is the sort of "here comes the letdown" thinking that makes frothing mad turn to apocalyptic sadness.
"Oh my god, the HIV/AIDS epidemic in the gay community", yes, yes, we get it, it's red meat for haters. Lots of people get it, but for those who do, those who watch and those who condemn, it makes very little difference in the fundamental facts of one's ultimate demise and the ultimate defeat of the virus itself. Not to mention the irrelevance of the "HIV/AIDS is punishment for being gay or having too much sex" argument.
You will all die someday, and HIV/AIDS will have its cure someday. The end*.
Now who wants tacos?
*unless we get hit by an asteroid
61
Okay, George, here's one way to be taken slightly more seriously: never, never use an apostrophe to make a plural. Got it? That means every reference you make to Church's (or gay's, for that matter) is wrong. Also, church isn't capitalized, even if it's "a very Biblical-based Bible church." A church is a plain and normal noun. All churches are nouns. Now see? Wasn't that an easy lesson?
62
I find it odd that all of these Christians that are writing in saying "I am not like that! I am nice and accepting!!!!" usually throw in, "Most churches don't hate gays". I grew up in a religious household; church every Sunday, private Christian school from 6th to 12th grade, forced youth group meetings during the week. Gay bashing was so the norm. It enraged me, especially when I was in high school and my best friend (a gay male) was followed around after school one day at the Albertson's he worked at by a pickup truck with some male youths from our school with a bullhorn yelling "FAGGOT" at him as he pushed carts.
My school had chapel on Wednesdays, which was basically a church service we all had to attend between classes for about an hour and a half. one Wednesday, our speaker was a gentleman who claimed that he had been living a "gay lifestyle" when he was in his early twenties, but now in his fourties, he was no longer gay and was married with a wife and child, and he started talking something or other about God's love setting him free, which I thought was a sad state of self remorse in many ways, but that wasn't even the worst part; there was literally an UPROAR afterwards from the students: "How dare a faggot come to our chapel!" That was all anyone could talk about, was how they were so upset that the school would allow a former gay man to be our speaker.
Christians need to stop trying to play this whole thing off as a minority problem, because it isn't. Every Christian establishment I have ever come into contact with has had the same bigoted mindset, whether they were joking about it in passing or preaching about it on a stage. If Christians want the rest of us to believe that they do not preach hatred to gay people, they need to go to the MAJORITY of Christian groups and churches and private schools and tell them that they are ashamed of how they are represented.
More...
My school had chapel on Wednesdays, which was basically a church service we all had to attend between classes for about an hour and a half. one Wednesday, our speaker was a gentleman who claimed that he had been living a "gay lifestyle" when he was in his early twenties, but now in his fourties, he was no longer gay and was married with a wife and child, and he started talking something or other about God's love setting him free, which I thought was a sad state of self remorse in many ways, but that wasn't even the worst part; there was literally an UPROAR afterwards from the students: "How dare a faggot come to our chapel!" That was all anyone could talk about, was how they were so upset that the school would allow a former gay man to be our speaker.
Christians need to stop trying to play this whole thing off as a minority problem, because it isn't. Every Christian establishment I have ever come into contact with has had the same bigoted mindset, whether they were joking about it in passing or preaching about it on a stage. If Christians want the rest of us to believe that they do not preach hatred to gay people, they need to go to the MAJORITY of Christian groups and churches and private schools and tell them that they are ashamed of how they are represented.
63
@48 - yeah, I'm with 57 there. I also don't care about religion or god, but in any larger city it really doesn't take much looking to see the rainbow flags, triangles etc. on a whole bunch of Unitarian, United, or Episcopalian churches (or progressive synagogues for that matter). The only time I come into contact with clergy is during weddings of friends, but on those I've heard prayers and sermons denouncing homophobia, advocating gay marriage etc.
I'd guess for most of the people in those churches, their church is less central to their life than for those in gay-bashing churches, which is one reason you hear less of them. The other reason is the nature of media - "God hates Fags" is just a better story than "God loves all her creation".
But also, people in those churches mostly aren't that whiny - the letters Dan keeps getting are the exception rather than the rule I'd guess.
I'd guess for most of the people in those churches, their church is less central to their life than for those in gay-bashing churches, which is one reason you hear less of them. The other reason is the nature of media - "God hates Fags" is just a better story than "God loves all her creation".
But also, people in those churches mostly aren't that whiny - the letters Dan keeps getting are the exception rather than the rule I'd guess.
65
60
" science is working on -- and will find -- a cure for HIV/AIDS. That's a given. They will never in any foreseeable future, however, find a pill that cures stupid."
which is why, by the time a cure for AIDS is found, the next "gay plague" will already be raging.
society really doesn't need a 'cure' for AIDS, it is easily prevented with the tiniest bit of care.
only raging stupidity;
or criminal selfishness;
(or pervasive suicidal tendencies?)
can account for 20% of homosexuals having AIDS.
a cure for AIDS will not address the behaviors that incubate, breed, foster and spread it and those same behaviors will spawn the next Gay Plague and the one after that.
Science is not your friend, dear sodomite; dangerous unhealthy behavior choices don't yield to god or religion or mercy or redemption, only the merciless toll of the microbe.
" science is working on -- and will find -- a cure for HIV/AIDS. That's a given. They will never in any foreseeable future, however, find a pill that cures stupid."
which is why, by the time a cure for AIDS is found, the next "gay plague" will already be raging.
society really doesn't need a 'cure' for AIDS, it is easily prevented with the tiniest bit of care.
only raging stupidity;
or criminal selfishness;
(or pervasive suicidal tendencies?)
can account for 20% of homosexuals having AIDS.
a cure for AIDS will not address the behaviors that incubate, breed, foster and spread it and those same behaviors will spawn the next Gay Plague and the one after that.
Science is not your friend, dear sodomite; dangerous unhealthy behavior choices don't yield to god or religion or mercy or redemption, only the merciless toll of the microbe.
66
The good Christians, the ones who believe not just in tolerance but in acceptance and love of those who are different from them, have no reason to be angry at Dan. If anything, they have reason to be angry with the bigoted homophobes who call themselves Christians while persecuting and singling out the poor, downtrodden, weak, disenfranchised, ostracized, etc. It is their actions, ignorance and intolerance that cause all of Christianity to be painted with an intolerant, homophobic, racist and otherwise extremist brush. Dan's comments are merely a reflection that the dominant message from people calling themselves Christian is intolerance. If you want to change the dominant perception of Christianity, shout about your love and acceptance from a mountaintop until the perception of Christianity is changed.
And if you are an intolerant, bigoted kind of Christian, just go fuck yourself.
And if you are an intolerant, bigoted kind of Christian, just go fuck yourself.
67
"I am a Christian who attends a very Biblical-based Bible Church."
He's a CHRISTIAN? Who attends CHURCH? Preposterous, I know, but it's not just a Church (capital C because it's a proper noun kinda church), it's a A BIBLE CHURCH, where I can only assume they follow the Bible--unlike the other churches I've been to, which just follow the entire Lady Gaga catalog as scripture. And--get this--this CHRISTIAN goes to a BIBLE CHURCH that is BIBLICAL-BASED (where adjectives can modify verbs, of course). THEY MAKE THOSE NOW? HOLY SHIT--wait, can I say that? Or are his feelings going to be hurt?
...Is the ACLU gonna contact me about my grammar bullying now? I'm not condemning people who can't work a proper syntax in their native language, I'm just going to let them know that I don't consider them human. That's all.
He's a CHRISTIAN? Who attends CHURCH? Preposterous, I know, but it's not just a Church (capital C because it's a proper noun kinda church), it's a A BIBLE CHURCH, where I can only assume they follow the Bible--unlike the other churches I've been to, which just follow the entire Lady Gaga catalog as scripture. And--get this--this CHRISTIAN goes to a BIBLE CHURCH that is BIBLICAL-BASED (where adjectives can modify verbs, of course). THEY MAKE THOSE NOW? HOLY SHIT--wait, can I say that? Or are his feelings going to be hurt?
...Is the ACLU gonna contact me about my grammar bullying now? I'm not condemning people who can't work a proper syntax in their native language, I'm just going to let them know that I don't consider them human. That's all.
68
@64 - I realize I'm one of the lucky ones. Any family I have who doesn't accept me is about two thousand miles away and, for all intents and purposes, isn't my family. And I live in one of the most liberal (and one of the gayest) cities in the country, so there's no shortage of community here. It's too easy to forget that not every gay kid is going to grow up with my parents in Seattle.
70
While a person certainly doesn't have to be religious to have antipathy towards gays & lesbians, and while there are enlightened religious people who don't feel there's anything "wrong" with homosexuality, I would bet that most negativity towards gays & lesbians is based in religion, specifically the three monotheistic religions.
71
@47: Dan is an atheist and has said so on numerous occasions. Is it really an atheist's job to explain to gay Xtians that the two are compatible? And guess what, if by "Christian" you mean someone who believes in the literal words of the new and old testaments, then the two ideas aren't compatible! You can only make them compatible by choosing to ignore select passages from the books, and if it's ok to ignore select passages of the books, then apparently they aren't this complete guide to morality after all. "Christians" become more and more progressive the more they ignore their holy books, ever notice that?
72
I wanna see a video go viral that is a preacher up on the pulpit on Sunday saying that they look forward to officiating the weddings of their gay flock once gay marriage is legal.
73
@5, Matt, you are so right.
George, every single church I've went to (and there have been a lot; I've gone to church my entire life and moved a lot) has talked about homosexuality being wrong, asked homosexuals to leave the church, and done their part to continue the idea that marriage is a right that only belongs to straight people.
Also...bible college in Portland, Oregon? That seems far fetched. ;)
George, every single church I've went to (and there have been a lot; I've gone to church my entire life and moved a lot) has talked about homosexuality being wrong, asked homosexuals to leave the church, and done their part to continue the idea that marriage is a right that only belongs to straight people.
Also...bible college in Portland, Oregon? That seems far fetched. ;)
74
I love that he thinks you can file a lawsuit against "Hate Speech"!! (I love that "Hate Speech" is capitalized, as if it's a proper noun, like, say, "God".) He probably heard on Glenn Beck that Christians were being silenced by the Obama Government for "Hate Speech."
76
when will the ostensibly non-homophobic religious people figure out that they shouldn't be going after the gays and their supporters for complaining about religious people, but the homophobic religious people for going after the gays?! come on, it's not that hard!!!
77
Whatever that is in the air of your church that compelled your organist to leave -- that's bullying. It's "where the Church stood on the issue." You don't have to say "god hates fags" to be an effective bully.
78
"Matter of fact, just a few years ago, our choir director went to our pastor and told him he had an inclination of being gay, and understood where the Church stood on the issue, and respected it, so he and the pastor hugged, cried together, and he went his way, and we hope that he is doing well where ever he is."
This is how you treat your brother, the very image of God who Jesus taught you to love as yourself?
Dan speaks infinitely more Christian truth you have here when he tells us that we must repent of this hate in our name and beg forgiveness of those who we've wronged. May God also forgive us this sin, but only when we've made it right.
This is how you treat your brother, the very image of God who Jesus taught you to love as yourself?
Dan speaks infinitely more Christian truth you have here when he tells us that we must repent of this hate in our name and beg forgiveness of those who we've wronged. May God also forgive us this sin, but only when we've made it right.
79
Yo, dude, here's hate speech: You are fucking retar-har-harded. Hopefully the ACLU can help you out with that, because your imaginary bearded caucasian in the sky, despite his omnipotence, apparently can't.
80
@48, I know this won't be a popular thing to say on Slog, but to answer your question, every pastor I've ever had in the United Church of Christ has made a point of LGBT inclusive/LGBT positive sermons, including gay-rights focused events and gay rights discussions. I have also attended a few LGBT-positive events at Unitarian Universalist gatherings (some of which consider themselves Christian, some deist), and a few Episcopal churches. Thanks to Jeremiah Wright, UCC has gone from "who?" to "oh, THOSE nutjobs," in American culture, but before Jeremiah Wright, back when no one knew or cared what UCC was (in reality, UCC is one of the oldest branches of mainstream Protestantism in the US - which is nothing to brag about, just pointing out that UCC is older than, say, Lutheran. Or Baptist.)... anyway, back in the days when no one knew who the hell UCC was, they were the ones running the "God rejects no one" commercials. You know, with the gay couple, and the pierced kids, and the people in wheelchairs, all mixed in amongst the commoners. And that campaign - the "Not all Christians are hatefilled nutjobs" campaign - went nowhere, because the Christians who *are* hatefilled nutjobs don't acknowledge UCC, and the atheists and agnostics who think all Christians *must* secretly be hate-filled nutjobs don't want to re-examine the idea that some Christian churches, as institutions, really do speak out against hate.
I went to my first Pride, age 4, with my gay uncles (now celebrating their 28th anniversary, iirc). I went to my second Pride, and many thereafter, with my church... UCC. AFAIK, UCC churches all around the US take a delegation there every year (youth and adults, gay and straight). Why haven't you seen us? Because it is *against* the UCC creed to witness or proselytize. I think I might've said "I'm with Central" [the church's name] *once* at Pride, ever, because we are not *there* to tell everybody about magic sky god Jesus. We're there because it's Pride and some of us are queer and some of us are "queer allies" and dammit, Pride is important and fun. You wanna ask me about my church, I assume you'll ask me about my church (I did come in a church van with United Church of Christ on the side). But we are at fucking *Pride*, so - even when I've been at Pride with my church - I'm usually concerned with that hot guy over there, or that important political thing I need to be aware of over *there*, or that veeery nice bit of leatherwork over *there*, or whatever.
The whole "where are the good Christians" argument is a tough one, because the problem is, the "good" ones *don't* feel the need to bludgeon anyone with their beliefs. Which is part of what makes them "good ones," no? So, by design, we're less visible. Don't confuse that, however, with an unwillingness to stand up for justice. It's just that some of us don't "stand up for justice in the name of JAY-sis the LORD!".... because, it's not "in the name of Jesus," which implies that only those who believe in Jesus are mandated to be decent people. Ergo, when a UCC person (or a Unitarian Universalist, or a liberal Episcopalian) stands up for justice, we don't do it "in the name of" anything. We just say "hey, don't use hatespeech, that's cruel. Excuse me, why are you taunting so-and-so? I'm sorry, I can't hang out with you if you speak that way/believe that X group of people is better than Y group." We say "That's unacceptable." It's not "unacceptable to my god" (which might or might not be your god)... it's fucking unacceptable for *human beings*.
So, are you tired of listening to a liberal christian yet? I'm told we're strange and slightly insufferable. ;)
More...
I went to my first Pride, age 4, with my gay uncles (now celebrating their 28th anniversary, iirc). I went to my second Pride, and many thereafter, with my church... UCC. AFAIK, UCC churches all around the US take a delegation there every year (youth and adults, gay and straight). Why haven't you seen us? Because it is *against* the UCC creed to witness or proselytize. I think I might've said "I'm with Central" [the church's name] *once* at Pride, ever, because we are not *there* to tell everybody about magic sky god Jesus. We're there because it's Pride and some of us are queer and some of us are "queer allies" and dammit, Pride is important and fun. You wanna ask me about my church, I assume you'll ask me about my church (I did come in a church van with United Church of Christ on the side). But we are at fucking *Pride*, so - even when I've been at Pride with my church - I'm usually concerned with that hot guy over there, or that important political thing I need to be aware of over *there*, or that veeery nice bit of leatherwork over *there*, or whatever.
The whole "where are the good Christians" argument is a tough one, because the problem is, the "good" ones *don't* feel the need to bludgeon anyone with their beliefs. Which is part of what makes them "good ones," no? So, by design, we're less visible. Don't confuse that, however, with an unwillingness to stand up for justice. It's just that some of us don't "stand up for justice in the name of JAY-sis the LORD!".... because, it's not "in the name of Jesus," which implies that only those who believe in Jesus are mandated to be decent people. Ergo, when a UCC person (or a Unitarian Universalist, or a liberal Episcopalian) stands up for justice, we don't do it "in the name of" anything. We just say "hey, don't use hatespeech, that's cruel. Excuse me, why are you taunting so-and-so? I'm sorry, I can't hang out with you if you speak that way/believe that X group of people is better than Y group." We say "That's unacceptable." It's not "unacceptable to my god" (which might or might not be your god)... it's fucking unacceptable for *human beings*.
So, are you tired of listening to a liberal christian yet? I'm told we're strange and slightly insufferable. ;)
81
Excellent point, rocketscientist @76, and one that I wish I had made myself. The only way to prove that you're not "one of them" is to join us in the fight against bigotry, not whine to us that we're right but it's just so upsetting for us to call out the bigotry of their churches.
82
It is evident from the foaming rants of the unregistered commenter(s) that some folks out there are feeling under attack, vulnerable and lashing out.
So how is your faith helping you with that? Does unloading all this bile help you demonstrate the glory of your religion? Does your belief require you to defend it with such rage and hatred? Because from my perspective it seems that you are providing the evidence that some believers - such as yourself - are emotionally in a pretty horrible place.
"God loves you but you're gonna burn in hell" ... seriously? This is what your gentle saviour is like? Shit, I'd hate to meet him in a bad mood.
I think you need to sit back and ask yourself why you are getting so hot under the collar about homosexuality. To me it reads like you are having a personal conflict - why else are you hanging around a very gay oriented blog, filled with viewpoints that are certain to be contrary to your beliefs?
Is this a case of protesting too much?
So how is your faith helping you with that? Does unloading all this bile help you demonstrate the glory of your religion? Does your belief require you to defend it with such rage and hatred? Because from my perspective it seems that you are providing the evidence that some believers - such as yourself - are emotionally in a pretty horrible place.
"God loves you but you're gonna burn in hell" ... seriously? This is what your gentle saviour is like? Shit, I'd hate to meet him in a bad mood.
I think you need to sit back and ask yourself why you are getting so hot under the collar about homosexuality. To me it reads like you are having a personal conflict - why else are you hanging around a very gay oriented blog, filled with viewpoints that are certain to be contrary to your beliefs?
Is this a case of protesting too much?
83
MissJess @ 73,
Just off of the top of my head and therefore not complete:
Portland Bible College
Multnomah Bible College and Seminary
North Portland Bible College
Northwest College of the Bible
In the Portland surrounding area:
George Fox University
Warner Pacific University
Just off of the top of my head and therefore not complete:
Portland Bible College
Multnomah Bible College and Seminary
North Portland Bible College
Northwest College of the Bible
In the Portland surrounding area:
George Fox University
Warner Pacific University
84
Hi George,
Sometimes Dan gets it into his head that it's his moral obligation to be a dick about something. I know it must be upsetting, and please rest assured that it's also very frustrating for those of us who generally agree with his politics but value civility. If possible I'd recommend that you just roll your eyes, make an exasperated noise, and try to ignore him.
Have a good one.
Hi Dan,
Could you maybe tone down the dickishness?
Love, lil
Sometimes Dan gets it into his head that it's his moral obligation to be a dick about something. I know it must be upsetting, and please rest assured that it's also very frustrating for those of us who generally agree with his politics but value civility. If possible I'd recommend that you just roll your eyes, make an exasperated noise, and try to ignore him.
Have a good one.
Hi Dan,
Could you maybe tone down the dickishness?
Love, lil
86
@80 Yes yes yes! That's what i keep saying. Our activism may be faith-inspired, but it's less likely to be faith-branded.
87
@80, Thanks for your thoughts. I for one am definitely aware of the good, tolerant Christian churches that are out there.
I think what the world needs is for people like you and your church to not only oppose bigotry, but to do it AS CHRISTIANS. The media has got to start showing that not all Christians behave or think this way, and the only way that's going to happen is if enough people start speaking out that they can't continue to ignore it.
This also relates to why the inclusionary ad campaign did not get more attention. Was it clearly a Christian ad campaign? If not, then how would people appreciate a gesture that they don't know is being made?
I think what the world needs is for people like you and your church to not only oppose bigotry, but to do it AS CHRISTIANS. The media has got to start showing that not all Christians behave or think this way, and the only way that's going to happen is if enough people start speaking out that they can't continue to ignore it.
This also relates to why the inclusionary ad campaign did not get more attention. Was it clearly a Christian ad campaign? If not, then how would people appreciate a gesture that they don't know is being made?
88
@ 48
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
And, other's who have contributed to the IGBP.
And, last weekend while sitting in church I was visiting. Last January in the church I attend. Last June when the church I attend participated in the Portland Pride Parade.
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
And, other's who have contributed to the IGBP.
And, last weekend while sitting in church I was visiting. Last January in the church I attend. Last June when the church I attend participated in the Portland Pride Parade.
90
There are also a few high-profile gay religious officials. I think there's a lesbian pastor who was in the news, and of course there is Gene Robinson.
93
George, I live so deep in the deep South that I have to take my shoes off outside to keep from tracking the Jesus all over my hardwood floors. I don't know from Portland, but down here there are quite a few Christians who do really get it. There are folks down here who strive to walk with Christ as Christ loved us and live his message of unchanging love for all people. They're a minority, but they're far from rare.
And I say this to you, every last one of them has the exact same attitude when the organist comes out. Every last one of them understands that Jesus loves the gays every bit as much as he loves all the rest of us sinners.
If you're not welcoming the gay organist with the same love and acceptance with which you welcome the glutton, the driver of the gas-guzzling SUV, the occasional card cheat, and the unrepentant elevator-farter, you ain't one of them.
And I say this to you, every last one of them has the exact same attitude when the organist comes out. Every last one of them understands that Jesus loves the gays every bit as much as he loves all the rest of us sinners.
If you're not welcoming the gay organist with the same love and acceptance with which you welcome the glutton, the driver of the gas-guzzling SUV, the occasional card cheat, and the unrepentant elevator-farter, you ain't one of them.
94
@93 I really liked your post, except I have to respectfully disagree on one point: Unrepentant elevator farters are going straight to hell, and that's a fact.
95
Dan hit the nail on the head. What kind of numbskull thinks that he actually goes to a "gay-friendly" church when someone acutally outs themselves just to leave?
96
"the emotions I am feeling from this and the psychological affects are almost overwhelming"
Seek professional help George, an apology won't cure you.
"We for the most part really don't care what you people do. You live your lifestyle, and we live ours."
Are you hearing voices too? Or is that a collective WE meaning EVERYONE in your church?
"he had an inclination of being gay, and understood where the Church stood on the issue"
How did the organist know where "the church" stood on the issue if it wasn't ever discussed IN church? Was he taken aside and told he would no longer be welcome? Was he sent an email, did someone put a note on his car, or on his organ, or leave him a voice mail? How did everyone IN church know why he was leaving? Was he told he could stay or did everyone want him to leave? Did you or anyone else object and ask him not to leave? Did you or anyone else apologize to him for not wanting him in your church any longer?
YOU AND YOUR CHURCH are homophobic George and that is precisely why you people won't ever get an apology. Dream on dirt bag.
Seek professional help George, an apology won't cure you.
"We for the most part really don't care what you people do. You live your lifestyle, and we live ours."
Are you hearing voices too? Or is that a collective WE meaning EVERYONE in your church?
"he had an inclination of being gay, and understood where the Church stood on the issue"
How did the organist know where "the church" stood on the issue if it wasn't ever discussed IN church? Was he taken aside and told he would no longer be welcome? Was he sent an email, did someone put a note on his car, or on his organ, or leave him a voice mail? How did everyone IN church know why he was leaving? Was he told he could stay or did everyone want him to leave? Did you or anyone else object and ask him not to leave? Did you or anyone else apologize to him for not wanting him in your church any longer?
YOU AND YOUR CHURCH are homophobic George and that is precisely why you people won't ever get an apology. Dream on dirt bag.
98
George, we don't hate you, we simply disagree with your lifestyle. We're sorry we'll have to part ways. Bye-bye!
P.S. what the hell is he doing reading Dan Savage anyway?
P.S. what the hell is he doing reading Dan Savage anyway?
100
Sadini @98 and MacCrocodile @99, that's what I thought too. He's having trouble with his own sexuality and wants someone to blame. Or maybe he wants someone to talk to and he's going about it bass ackwards. That would explain why he's reading Dan Savage and The Stranger.
102
@65: This is probably the least stupid thing you said in that comment, but as someone with an actual understanding of science, I feel compelled to point out that AIDS is not caused by a microbe.
@94: A downward-traveling chamber filled with the sulfurous stench of putrefaction? That's a farted-in elevator, all right, and quite likely going down the primrose path.
@94: A downward-traveling chamber filled with the sulfurous stench of putrefaction? That's a farted-in elevator, all right, and quite likely going down the primrose path.
103
@96, it was a coded message. Someone (probably the minister) put tulips on his organ.
Ah well. In late, but early in the second hundred.
Ah well. In late, but early in the second hundred.
104
And anality (both ways) compels me to point out that it was the church's [see how that works, letter whiner?] choir director who dropped his hanky in front of the minister, not the organist. Reading comprehension FAIL (first and foremost by Dan, but also by everyone else except 78).
105
What blows me away is that -- how many ppl are killed (or kill themselves) for being gay vs how many for being christian (in this country)??
And yet he is the one suffering psychological damage when he sees his church labelled as a bully???
Makes me want to pound something against the wall. Unfortunately it's my own head more often than not *grrr*
And yet he is the one suffering psychological damage when he sees his church labelled as a bully???
Makes me want to pound something against the wall. Unfortunately it's my own head more often than not *grrr*
106
"why is it always the organist?"
OMG - how funny, the organist (Larry!) in the Minnesota Lutheran church my parents dragged me to as a kid was gay. He wasn't exactly Liberace, but people knew, and no one felt compelled to make an issue about it.
Had he outed himself to the pastor (and for all I know may have), the pastor would have reacted by getting very embarrassed and changing the subject.
So, examples of sort-of-tolerant churches do exist, but this guy's church is not one of them.
OMG - how funny, the organist (Larry!) in the Minnesota Lutheran church my parents dragged me to as a kid was gay. He wasn't exactly Liberace, but people knew, and no one felt compelled to make an issue about it.
Had he outed himself to the pastor (and for all I know may have), the pastor would have reacted by getting very embarrassed and changing the subject.
So, examples of sort-of-tolerant churches do exist, but this guy's church is not one of them.
107
@87, Re: the god rejects no one campaign, check it out for yourself here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXCzzNoMe… (there are others, just search "united church of christ ad" on youtube to find them). Trying to oppose bigotry as Christians is something UCC needs to get better about, but 86 hit the nail on the head - the problem is, liberal Christians don't tend to like "faith branding." I don't, for example, love my uncles because they're gay or in spite of their gayness or because God loves everyone.... I love them because they're my *uncles*. It's hard for me to see it through religious glasses and say "well, *and also* God loves them," because my uncles are agnostics, so I feel *really* uncomfortable "branding" a family bond with a religion that they, themselves, don't ascribe to, whether or not *I* believe it to be true. *Part* of my faith as a liberal Christian is to *not* step on the toes of anyone who does *not* believe in God, or who doesn't believe in "my" God. It's worth mentioning that part of my own *personal* discomfort with anything along the lines of "I do moral things *because* I am Christian" - as opposed to "I do moral things *and also* I am Christian" is probably because it's hard to cozy up to the idea of "I do moral things because I am Christian" when well-meaning Christians have been coming up to me in public places since I was an infant to tell me "God works in mysterious ways" and I'd "be healed in heaven" and I'd "walk in heaven" and God loved me so so much, and I was a special child of God. I was born with cerebral palsy, see, and Christians do love themselves a cripple (and I'm not naive enough to say UCC's an exception! They've asked my permission to use me once in a while in great big liberal gay-lovin' multicultural isn't-diversity-awesome lit. And I'm happy to do my queer kinky gimpy commie part.) As an adult, I know how to handle the "God made you so that us ablebodied people would feel better about ourselves!" folks... I can thank them politely and go on my way (and if they fail to take a hint, I inform them that actually, I can walk already, whaddya know, it's a miracle, praise the Lord, and they're usually too confused to follow me).
As a child, though, I found these God loves you people *deeply* disturbing. God made me this way for a reason? God was going to *heal* me? Why did I need to be healed? Was something *wrong* with me? Why did that man just try to hand me money? Why did my mom get so mad when he did? Why did these God people keep *looking* at me, and why was I always the one they wanted to come talk to? They didn't go around to everyone *else* in the store and tell them about how God was going to heal them. And if God made me this way, then why would God want to heal me? If God made me this way, then didn't God love me the way I was?
Again, *now*, I can handle these folks, but as a small child, I'd rather have someone call me a "cute little retard" (yes, happened. Yes, to my face, because wheels under your ass means mentally impaired, always and forever amen) than deal with "God loves you" people, because it sent me into *such* a spiral of confusion and self-doubt. To them, healing was a good thing... to me, being disabled was (is) part of who I was (am), and all this talk of healing, and emphasis on walking, was *fucking* scary. (Pro tip: for some disabled folks, walking is difficult and painful and exhausting and actually frightening/dangerous, if we have balance issues. This goes double for little kids who may or may not be able to express as much. Off topic, I know, but walking isn't awesome or "good progress" if you're so exhausted and in so much agony trying to do it that you fall on your face and require stitches. So, just like it's a pretty offensive thing to say to a LGBT person that they'll be healed someday, you probably want to be extra sure that a disabled person *wants* to be "healed" before you tell them how awesome being a biped is and how they should just work harder. Just saying.)
Back to christianity and liberal christians and what our responsibilities are - The UCC, at least, is kind of a stickler about responding to others according to their *actions* and not their beliefs... The minute a *belief* crosses into an *action* (including hate speech, shitty legislation, bigoted voting, ignorant behavior, etc), then my right and responsibility to say something kicks in. E.g., theoretically, "Joe" can be the most bigoted, racist person you ever did see, but - according to many liberal christians - that is not for us to judge *unless and until* thoughts become action. Realistically, thoughts *always* become action, sooner or later... and that *is* something the UCC church is aware of and discusses. But, as an institution, there's a lot of emphasis on "I don't want anyone telling *me* what to believe (or that my beliefs are wrong) ergo, I don't get to tell anyone *else* what to believe (or that their beliefs are wrong). I can act according to their actions/situation (calling someone on hatespeech, preventing bullying, taking in a LGBT relative/friend who needs a place to stay, voting, writing to my representatives, protesting, being charitable, etc etc. *Acting* against social injustice/general injustice is, in the eyes of most liberal Christians, probably *the* most "Christian" thing we can do), but bringing my beliefs into it dilutes the argument, because it leaves opponents open to say "I don't believe as you do, ergo I can continue to behave poorly toward my fellow man."
More succinctly, let's say "Joe" calls someone a "faggot". I can say "Come on now, Joe, that's not very Christian" - which is pretty irrelevant in my personal worldview, because it implies that non-Christians should feel free to use hatespeech. Let's say I say it anyway, since "that's not very Christian" is considered a valid argument in my part of the world.
Me: Joe, that's not very Christian.
Him: What? When did *you* find the Lord?
Me: Er... actually, my church doesn't do the whole saved thing.
Him: Well then you ain't a Christian.
Me:.... I disagree, but let's get back to that word you used - please don't use it, it's hurtful and unnecessary.
Him: You think he ain't a faggot?
Me: I think that's a nasty word, and I don't know what his sexual orientation is, and I don't think it's anyone's business but his.
Him: If you were a *real* Christian, you'd know it was your business, because [blah blah fundie arguments here that I refuse to type out or give credence to in any way because I feel dirty enough typing a slur twice].
See how the ground moved under our feet? Contrast that to this:
Me:: Please don't use that word, it's hurtful.
Joe: Aw I didn't mean nothin'.
Me: I'm sure you didn't, which is why I'd rather you not use that word.
And that, right there, is the problem with faith branding. Christians who consider witnessing a tenet of their faith have a vested interest in getting into an "I'm more christian than you" (or "you're not a real christian") fight. Meanwhile, People who *aren't* christian often resent christianity even being brought up in a non-religious conversation, because they consider it a non-logical argument (and it *is* a non-logical argument!) and they're gearing up for being witnessed to (which is often a safe assumption) which puts them on the defensive. Add that to the fact that, as I said before, for me and for a lot of liberal Christians, we're not moral *because* we're Christian, we're moral *and also* Christian... just like it's possible to be moral and Jewish, or moral and Muslim, or moral and atheist. My faith sometimes informs my actions, but it's not the thing that stands between giving a man a hand up and kicking him in the face.And, fair or not, I'm a little suspicious of anyone who claims their faith or non-faith is the *only* thing that informs their morals. I think that's an intellectually dishonest claim to make.
In an ideal world, we could take back that word, Christianity, and rebrand it. In the real world, I got squirmy when a UCC pastor and I had a discussion about being "Christ like"! We were calling it "Christ like" because "Christian" has connotations of church and religion, and what we meant was "possessing a personal philosophy of loving and being non-judgmental and helpful toward others while still standing up for social justice" - behaving *in such a way as* Jesus, whether one believed in Jesus or not... and even "Christ like" felt like it had been so perverted beyond all reason into this Biblical, cliquey, letters-of-St. Paul bullshit that the pastor and I couldn't find a satisfactory word that wasn't full of baggage.
Course, full disclosure, UCC doesn't use pronouns for God (it's considered exclusionary) so we've always been weird about language when it comes to discussing faith, even with each other. ;)
More...
As a child, though, I found these God loves you people *deeply* disturbing. God made me this way for a reason? God was going to *heal* me? Why did I need to be healed? Was something *wrong* with me? Why did that man just try to hand me money? Why did my mom get so mad when he did? Why did these God people keep *looking* at me, and why was I always the one they wanted to come talk to? They didn't go around to everyone *else* in the store and tell them about how God was going to heal them. And if God made me this way, then why would God want to heal me? If God made me this way, then didn't God love me the way I was?
Again, *now*, I can handle these folks, but as a small child, I'd rather have someone call me a "cute little retard" (yes, happened. Yes, to my face, because wheels under your ass means mentally impaired, always and forever amen) than deal with "God loves you" people, because it sent me into *such* a spiral of confusion and self-doubt. To them, healing was a good thing... to me, being disabled was (is) part of who I was (am), and all this talk of healing, and emphasis on walking, was *fucking* scary. (Pro tip: for some disabled folks, walking is difficult and painful and exhausting and actually frightening/dangerous, if we have balance issues. This goes double for little kids who may or may not be able to express as much. Off topic, I know, but walking isn't awesome or "good progress" if you're so exhausted and in so much agony trying to do it that you fall on your face and require stitches. So, just like it's a pretty offensive thing to say to a LGBT person that they'll be healed someday, you probably want to be extra sure that a disabled person *wants* to be "healed" before you tell them how awesome being a biped is and how they should just work harder. Just saying.)
Back to christianity and liberal christians and what our responsibilities are - The UCC, at least, is kind of a stickler about responding to others according to their *actions* and not their beliefs... The minute a *belief* crosses into an *action* (including hate speech, shitty legislation, bigoted voting, ignorant behavior, etc), then my right and responsibility to say something kicks in. E.g., theoretically, "Joe" can be the most bigoted, racist person you ever did see, but - according to many liberal christians - that is not for us to judge *unless and until* thoughts become action. Realistically, thoughts *always* become action, sooner or later... and that *is* something the UCC church is aware of and discusses. But, as an institution, there's a lot of emphasis on "I don't want anyone telling *me* what to believe (or that my beliefs are wrong) ergo, I don't get to tell anyone *else* what to believe (or that their beliefs are wrong). I can act according to their actions/situation (calling someone on hatespeech, preventing bullying, taking in a LGBT relative/friend who needs a place to stay, voting, writing to my representatives, protesting, being charitable, etc etc. *Acting* against social injustice/general injustice is, in the eyes of most liberal Christians, probably *the* most "Christian" thing we can do), but bringing my beliefs into it dilutes the argument, because it leaves opponents open to say "I don't believe as you do, ergo I can continue to behave poorly toward my fellow man."
More succinctly, let's say "Joe" calls someone a "faggot". I can say "Come on now, Joe, that's not very Christian" - which is pretty irrelevant in my personal worldview, because it implies that non-Christians should feel free to use hatespeech. Let's say I say it anyway, since "that's not very Christian" is considered a valid argument in my part of the world.
Me: Joe, that's not very Christian.
Him: What? When did *you* find the Lord?
Me: Er... actually, my church doesn't do the whole saved thing.
Him: Well then you ain't a Christian.
Me:.... I disagree, but let's get back to that word you used - please don't use it, it's hurtful and unnecessary.
Him: You think he ain't a faggot?
Me: I think that's a nasty word, and I don't know what his sexual orientation is, and I don't think it's anyone's business but his.
Him: If you were a *real* Christian, you'd know it was your business, because [blah blah fundie arguments here that I refuse to type out or give credence to in any way because I feel dirty enough typing a slur twice].
See how the ground moved under our feet? Contrast that to this:
Me:: Please don't use that word, it's hurtful.
Joe: Aw I didn't mean nothin'.
Me: I'm sure you didn't, which is why I'd rather you not use that word.
And that, right there, is the problem with faith branding. Christians who consider witnessing a tenet of their faith have a vested interest in getting into an "I'm more christian than you" (or "you're not a real christian") fight. Meanwhile, People who *aren't* christian often resent christianity even being brought up in a non-religious conversation, because they consider it a non-logical argument (and it *is* a non-logical argument!) and they're gearing up for being witnessed to (which is often a safe assumption) which puts them on the defensive. Add that to the fact that, as I said before, for me and for a lot of liberal Christians, we're not moral *because* we're Christian, we're moral *and also* Christian... just like it's possible to be moral and Jewish, or moral and Muslim, or moral and atheist. My faith sometimes informs my actions, but it's not the thing that stands between giving a man a hand up and kicking him in the face.And, fair or not, I'm a little suspicious of anyone who claims their faith or non-faith is the *only* thing that informs their morals. I think that's an intellectually dishonest claim to make.
In an ideal world, we could take back that word, Christianity, and rebrand it. In the real world, I got squirmy when a UCC pastor and I had a discussion about being "Christ like"! We were calling it "Christ like" because "Christian" has connotations of church and religion, and what we meant was "possessing a personal philosophy of loving and being non-judgmental and helpful toward others while still standing up for social justice" - behaving *in such a way as* Jesus, whether one believed in Jesus or not... and even "Christ like" felt like it had been so perverted beyond all reason into this Biblical, cliquey, letters-of-St. Paul bullshit that the pastor and I couldn't find a satisfactory word that wasn't full of baggage.
Course, full disclosure, UCC doesn't use pronouns for God (it's considered exclusionary) so we've always been weird about language when it comes to discussing faith, even with each other. ;)
108
As a former Christian (and Portland resident who is the same age as George S.) I would like to tell the letter writer, with all due respect, to pull your fucking head out of the sand. With few exceptions Christian churches, even in liberal Portland, teach that homosexuality is not only a sin, but it belongs in an especially sinful category of extra-sinful sin that can't truly be forgiven, and that gay people are inherently disordered unrepentant supersinners who are branded for life by their supersinfulness. Maybe your church doesn't teach this; good for you I suppose.
Also, if what Dan has written causes you to feel overwhelming emotional affects [sic] then maybe there's a deep-seated psychological tension arising from the conflict between your religious indoctrination and your latent homosexuality? It's worth looking into. Just don't talk to your pastor, it sounds like he would lovingly show you the door and then maybe later hope that you're doing well.
Also, if what Dan has written causes you to feel overwhelming emotional affects [sic] then maybe there's a deep-seated psychological tension arising from the conflict between your religious indoctrination and your latent homosexuality? It's worth looking into. Just don't talk to your pastor, it sounds like he would lovingly show you the door and then maybe later hope that you're doing well.
109
@107, wow, way to write a novel, asshole.
(Seriously, didn't realize I'd gone on that long. Kudos to anyone who reads the whole thing. What can I say, I fail at le mot juste. I'm kinda le mot mo'.)
(Seriously, didn't realize I'd gone on that long. Kudos to anyone who reads the whole thing. What can I say, I fail at le mot juste. I'm kinda le mot mo'.)
110
It's hilarious when Christians claim they're oppressed when people won't tolerate their stupid shit
111
@ 103 rob ah yes, two lips on his organ, I should have known that!
FAIL is right, but choir director? That just doesn't strike the same chord as say a pipe organist or digital organist, cause well you know, they've got that doohickey thingy that they play. With.
The degree to which the organ is involved varies depending on the church.
Ha ha.
FAIL is right, but choir director? That just doesn't strike the same chord as say a pipe organist or digital organist, cause well you know, they've got that doohickey thingy that they play. With.
The degree to which the organ is involved varies depending on the church.
Ha ha.
112
@107 -- got the same crap for being a deafie and that was yet another nail in the good ol' xian coffin for me -- i was a non believer by the age of 10 or 11 and stopped attending church once I moved out of the house. This attitude enrages me nearly as much as the homophobic bigotry here. Surprised you've still stuck with it.
(The other side of the coin can be those biddies going Wonder what you did for God to punish you by making you deaf -- *that* one made my mother go after 'em)
(The other side of the coin can be those biddies going Wonder what you did for God to punish you by making you deaf -- *that* one made my mother go after 'em)
113
@109 Aw, I liked your novel! I, too, find all the "judging" some people do to be rather unlike the figure they are trying to emulate.
114
@109, I appreciate your "novel". I was raised in a fundamentalist environment, and as I've aged and matured I've realized I want a more liberal church, so I've been looking into local UCC churches. It's nice to hear from the perspective of a current member what his experience has been like.
And to all of the people who hate fundamentalist Christians, please know that it is possible for us to change! My whole family was very conservative growing up, and now 3 of the 4 kids in my family are quite liberal, supporting gay marriage and full equality. We're still praying that the 4th one will come around. ;)
And to all of the people who hate fundamentalist Christians, please know that it is possible for us to change! My whole family was very conservative growing up, and now 3 of the 4 kids in my family are quite liberal, supporting gay marriage and full equality. We're still praying that the 4th one will come around. ;)
115
@108, whether the letter writer is latently homosexual or not (and that does always crosses my mind when I read/hear these bullshit "love the sinner hate the sin" arguments), I think it's pretty clear that if Dan's words cause the letter writer to be emotionally "overwhelmed," there's *something* going on emotionally that he needs to acknowledge. Maybe he's gay or bi. Maybe he's kinky or has a fetish that he's ashamed of. Maybe he's just got a lot of shame around plain old straight vanilla sex, and he's so freaked out by the push-pull between his desires and what his Bible "says" that he's not sure what the hell to do. Or maybe - and this is the possibility with the longest odds of all, I realize - maybe deep down he's ashamed of *his church*. Maybe he knows that this "love the sinner hate the sin" stuff doesn't make sense, and that his own church undeniably shoved out a member for being gay, and if Dan would just shut up and stop making him so *uncomfortable*, he wouldn't have to deal with that cognitive dissonance anymore.
116
You're a doodle, @111. "Course, the choir director firmly grasps the baton, and sometimes smacks it on the lectern for attention.
@107/109, that was a delightful improvisatory fugue. You GET it, man. Thank you, and thanks for the link/laugh as well.
@107/109, that was a delightful improvisatory fugue. You GET it, man. Thank you, and thanks for the link/laugh as well.
119
Dan, I demand that you apologize for failing to connect a sentence in your response correctly around the parenthetical statement inserted into it. As a grammatical American, it hurts my feelings and may actually infringe on my rights. You suck, boo hoo.
(Psst, George S, you're a whiny little bitch who doesn't understand the Bible, the Constitution, or civil adult discourse. Grow up. And get some better friends and some new fucking books.)
(Psst, George S, you're a whiny little bitch who doesn't understand the Bible, the Constitution, or civil adult discourse. Grow up. And get some better friends and some new fucking books.)
120
@112, well, I'm lucky in that I was raised UCC (so I never got any of that crap from my family or my church, growing up) and UCC in particular doesn't give me *any* kind of crap for being disabled (or queer, or kinky, or anything else). They're a *rare* denomination that way, admittedly. I spent some time in the Catholic church (long story) and *very* quickly realized the discrimination and general hate most churches embody. It freaked me out, cause my experiences with church prior to that had always been so welcoming and slightly hippie-trippy that I didn't really believe a church could *actually* sanction hatred, or keying my vehicle or leaving me nasty notes for being pro gay marriage and pro-choice ( When I took it to the priest, his reply was "I'm not here to referee." I responded: "You're not here to referee *property damage* Father? I bet you'd 'referee' property damage if my car had been keyed for an *anti* gay marriage sticker..." He sputtered, I left. My mother still intermittently tells me I am "being unreasonable." I don't think she really means it, since she's the one who raised me to be a treehugging hippie liberal. ;) )
Unfortunately, going back to UCC doesn't do anything about the general "bless your heart" crap I get just walking around in the Deep South, but that's why I'm doing my best to get the hell out of the Deep South as soon as humanly possible.
Funnily enough, the day I realized I wouldn't be able to stay in this area indefinitely was one day - many years ago, now - when a bunch of friends and I went from the UCC church down to the AIDS walk... this was back when straight-people-and-children didn't participate in "gay" things like the AIDS walk (how ya doin', Carl Palladino? Enjoying the 1980s? Good times, good times...) and my friends and I were between about ten and eighteen. There were around seven of us, as I recall. As we were walking to the start, a woman stood right in my way on the footpath and blurted out: "God will heal you!"
Me: Um... I'm with my church youth group, actually, thanks.
Her: But, God will make you walk, if you believe!
Me: I can walk already. It's a miracle. Scuse me.
Her: But, but, what do you have?
Me: Excuse me.
Her: Wait! I have a chiropractor who can heal you!
At this point, one of my buddies, who was Deaf, made a "what the hell?" face and signed to me fairly discreetly, CHIROPRACTOR-GOD? (As in, "her god is a chiropractor? This'll be good.")
Me (deciding to see where this goes): Chiropractor, huh?
Lady: Yes! He's good with all kinds of spinal injuries!
Me: Really... so he regenerates spinal cords?
Lady: Oh, yes.
Me: Wow, he sounds like quite a guy.
Lady: Oh yes. I've *never* seen him not cure a disabled person.
Me: Well, I might be his first, since there's nothing wrong with my spine.
Her: Wh... what do you mean?
Me: I have congenital brain damage. And I'm not really interested in a cure. 'Scuse me, we're trying to get to the walk.
Her: You have *brain* damage? But you can talk!
Me (finally deciding to offroad it through the grass): How about that?
My Deaf buddy (deciding to join the fun): Hey, I can talk too!
Woman (with faint horror): Is he.... deaf?
Me: Yep.
Her: But... brain damage... deaf...
Figuring she was just one of those people who has trouble processing that disabled people have brains, we ignored it and kept going, and just as one of my friends was giving me a shove to help me get back onto the pavement, the woman *yelled* across the park, "So were you kids *born* with AIDS, or are you prostitutes? I can call the police for you, if you need help..."
Somehow, in her little mind, the *only* reason a group of kids would be going to the AIDS walk would be if we *had AIDS*, and when she found out two of us were disabled, well, we must be disabled and Deaf *from AIDS*. When we got done laughing, we sat there wondering why the hell *she* was there, since it probably wasn't for the AIDS walk. Only thing we could figure was that she'd gone hoping to witness to all the poor poor gay men, and then lost her nerve when she saw that there were women and children there, too, and that it wasn't a super secret den of iniquity in the middle of Piedmont Park.
Swear to God, true story.
More...
Unfortunately, going back to UCC doesn't do anything about the general "bless your heart" crap I get just walking around in the Deep South, but that's why I'm doing my best to get the hell out of the Deep South as soon as humanly possible.
Funnily enough, the day I realized I wouldn't be able to stay in this area indefinitely was one day - many years ago, now - when a bunch of friends and I went from the UCC church down to the AIDS walk... this was back when straight-people-and-children didn't participate in "gay" things like the AIDS walk (how ya doin', Carl Palladino? Enjoying the 1980s? Good times, good times...) and my friends and I were between about ten and eighteen. There were around seven of us, as I recall. As we were walking to the start, a woman stood right in my way on the footpath and blurted out: "God will heal you!"
Me: Um... I'm with my church youth group, actually, thanks.
Her: But, God will make you walk, if you believe!
Me: I can walk already. It's a miracle. Scuse me.
Her: But, but, what do you have?
Me: Excuse me.
Her: Wait! I have a chiropractor who can heal you!
At this point, one of my buddies, who was Deaf, made a "what the hell?" face and signed to me fairly discreetly, CHIROPRACTOR-GOD? (As in, "her god is a chiropractor? This'll be good.")
Me (deciding to see where this goes): Chiropractor, huh?
Lady: Yes! He's good with all kinds of spinal injuries!
Me: Really... so he regenerates spinal cords?
Lady: Oh, yes.
Me: Wow, he sounds like quite a guy.
Lady: Oh yes. I've *never* seen him not cure a disabled person.
Me: Well, I might be his first, since there's nothing wrong with my spine.
Her: Wh... what do you mean?
Me: I have congenital brain damage. And I'm not really interested in a cure. 'Scuse me, we're trying to get to the walk.
Her: You have *brain* damage? But you can talk!
Me (finally deciding to offroad it through the grass): How about that?
My Deaf buddy (deciding to join the fun): Hey, I can talk too!
Woman (with faint horror): Is he.... deaf?
Me: Yep.
Her: But... brain damage... deaf...
Figuring she was just one of those people who has trouble processing that disabled people have brains, we ignored it and kept going, and just as one of my friends was giving me a shove to help me get back onto the pavement, the woman *yelled* across the park, "So were you kids *born* with AIDS, or are you prostitutes? I can call the police for you, if you need help..."
Somehow, in her little mind, the *only* reason a group of kids would be going to the AIDS walk would be if we *had AIDS*, and when she found out two of us were disabled, well, we must be disabled and Deaf *from AIDS*. When we got done laughing, we sat there wondering why the hell *she* was there, since it probably wasn't for the AIDS walk. Only thing we could figure was that she'd gone hoping to witness to all the poor poor gay men, and then lost her nerve when she saw that there were women and children there, too, and that it wasn't a super secret den of iniquity in the middle of Piedmont Park.
Swear to God, true story.
122
I grew up churchy, but don't remember them ever explicitly stating that homosexuality was wrong (from the pulpit), but they must have.
The thing is, churches are subtle. The preacher guy can always find a way to talk about gays without even saying the word (maybe he uses "those people").
A few years ago, I visited Ken Hutcherson's Bible Church with some other gays. It was a thing, back when that dude was almost relevant. He got up on the pulpit and found a way to mention us sitting in his audience without actually saying anything. It was both disconcerting and incredibly familiar. In this modern climate we live in, being too hateful is "bad", ie nobody like Phelps. But there are tons of people and pastors and churches who still hate the gays without being explicit about it.
I'm rambling, but it's scary. I think it's harder to deal with unspoken bigotry sometimes.
The thing is, churches are subtle. The preacher guy can always find a way to talk about gays without even saying the word (maybe he uses "those people").
A few years ago, I visited Ken Hutcherson's Bible Church with some other gays. It was a thing, back when that dude was almost relevant. He got up on the pulpit and found a way to mention us sitting in his audience without actually saying anything. It was both disconcerting and incredibly familiar. In this modern climate we live in, being too hateful is "bad", ie nobody like Phelps. But there are tons of people and pastors and churches who still hate the gays without being explicit about it.
I'm rambling, but it's scary. I think it's harder to deal with unspoken bigotry sometimes.
123
@122, here (Atlanta area, as some perhaps have surmised), it's definitely "love the sinner, hate the sin," in terms of the coded language. This leaves them some wiggle room when questioned... "Oh really? What do you mean?" "Well, like if I lusted in my heart, that's a sin, but my family should still love *me*." Alrighty Jimmy Carter.
(I've actually met Jimmy Carter - which is not terribly hard to do if you live in the Atlanta area and are even loosely allied with the Democratic party, since there are approximately 8.5 Democrats in Georgia - and I like him, but I think it's pretty telling that *decades* after Carter got made fun of for that ill-advised comment, the Southern Baptists still use it.... with a *straight face*. You think they'd reword it for dignity's sake.)
(I've actually met Jimmy Carter - which is not terribly hard to do if you live in the Atlanta area and are even loosely allied with the Democratic party, since there are approximately 8.5 Democrats in Georgia - and I like him, but I think it's pretty telling that *decades* after Carter got made fun of for that ill-advised comment, the Southern Baptists still use it.... with a *straight face*. You think they'd reword it for dignity's sake.)
124
I cannot believe you said this, and the emotions I am feeling from this and the psychological affects are almost overwhelming.
All due respect to you in your moment of suffering psychological "affects," George, but just wondering - ever hear of a guy named Fred Phelps? He's really great at inflicting terrible psychological "affects." In fact, Phelps is so effective ("affective"?) at his trade that he inflicts it on families at military funerals on a regular basis. You might find Dan to be a little provocative, but put his statement up against the Westboro Mafia's golden oldie "God Hates Fags" and its many grotesque sequels, I'm afraid our homeboy will lose the invective war.
Instead of embarking on a mission to get the ACLU to laugh your complaint to high heaven, or having a lawyer do the same but with more lawyer-like cynicism, how about turning your critical eye, your moral certainty, and your blatant misuse of apostrophes on the cancerous elements tarnishing your own faith? Go after them. You'll be the better person for it. I kind of think your man J.C. would agree.
Do let us know how that hate-speech inquiry goes, though. We could use the laugh. It's almost Seasonal Affective Disorder time here, and Judd Apatow doesn't work for a lot of anymore.
All due respect to you in your moment of suffering psychological "affects," George, but just wondering - ever hear of a guy named Fred Phelps? He's really great at inflicting terrible psychological "affects." In fact, Phelps is so effective ("affective"?) at his trade that he inflicts it on families at military funerals on a regular basis. You might find Dan to be a little provocative, but put his statement up against the Westboro Mafia's golden oldie "God Hates Fags" and its many grotesque sequels, I'm afraid our homeboy will lose the invective war.
Instead of embarking on a mission to get the ACLU to laugh your complaint to high heaven, or having a lawyer do the same but with more lawyer-like cynicism, how about turning your critical eye, your moral certainty, and your blatant misuse of apostrophes on the cancerous elements tarnishing your own faith? Go after them. You'll be the better person for it. I kind of think your man J.C. would agree.
Do let us know how that hate-speech inquiry goes, though. We could use the laugh. It's almost Seasonal Affective Disorder time here, and Judd Apatow doesn't work for a lot of anymore.
125
@120 You know, I've been kinda bummed out lately. Your story was fucking hysterical. Thanks for making my day! *grins*
I'm in Texas, and people here are a special brand of crazy. I used to have this temp job at a local financial institution, and there was this older lady there who I worked next to. She seemed nice enough, but she was always going on about church and all. No matter. I think It's unprofessional, but as long as she was polite about it, I didn't care much. Anyways, being a Pagan, not only is it considered impolite to discuss our religion (just like with you), it's also a really good way to get fired. I have a nice silver pentacle though. I rarely take it off, and it was tucked into my shirt. It fell out one day, and the lady noticed it.
Old Lady: *stares aghast* If you were MY kid, I'd bend you over my knee and spank you for that! (Remember, I am at work. And I was 19 at the time. Not 8, as she seems to have thought.)
Me: *completely shocked* Well... I'm sorry you feel that way... *turn around and walk away, wondering what the fuck just happened, and slowly filling with rage*
It's just beyond me why people think it's appropriate to actually SAY stuff like that. And at work. RUDE.
I'm in Texas, and people here are a special brand of crazy. I used to have this temp job at a local financial institution, and there was this older lady there who I worked next to. She seemed nice enough, but she was always going on about church and all. No matter. I think It's unprofessional, but as long as she was polite about it, I didn't care much. Anyways, being a Pagan, not only is it considered impolite to discuss our religion (just like with you), it's also a really good way to get fired. I have a nice silver pentacle though. I rarely take it off, and it was tucked into my shirt. It fell out one day, and the lady noticed it.
Old Lady: *stares aghast* If you were MY kid, I'd bend you over my knee and spank you for that! (Remember, I am at work. And I was 19 at the time. Not 8, as she seems to have thought.)
Me: *completely shocked* Well... I'm sorry you feel that way... *turn around and walk away, wondering what the fuck just happened, and slowly filling with rage*
It's just beyond me why people think it's appropriate to actually SAY stuff like that. And at work. RUDE.
127
@48 (Epic Wizard) Here's what happens when a Christian minister speaks out in favor of gays and gay marriage. This clip is of Jay Baaker (son of Jim and Tammy Faye).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s30ZKjNfR…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s30ZKjNfR…
128
for people who don't believe in hell you sure get all touchy about someone believing you're going there.....
129
We love the intellectually advanced comeback to criticism
(use your best redneck hick voice- no other will fit...)
"Well if You got a problem with Homosexuality
it must mean YOU'RE A CLOSET FAGGOT!"
Accusing those who disagree with you of being what you are?
That's the best you've got?
Really?
(use your best redneck hick voice- no other will fit...)
"Well if You got a problem with Homosexuality
it must mean YOU'RE A CLOSET FAGGOT!"
Accusing those who disagree with you of being what you are?
That's the best you've got?
Really?
130
Who knew Religion could be so simple?
Condemn the ButtFuckery- Bad Religion.
Embrace the ButtFuckery- Good Religion
It's all about the ButtFucking.......
Condemn the ButtFuckery- Bad Religion.
Embrace the ButtFuckery- Good Religion
It's all about the ButtFucking.......
131
Oh no the big Christian man's feelings have been hurt. What a childish thing to write. Grow the fuck up and grow a pair. I can't over how the people like this, they feel so entitled to their point of view (even when it's demeaning to other people, weather they see it as so or not) and then cry when the rest of the world points out that they're being a bunch of d-bags.
Personally I'm glad this guys feelings are hurt. Now he know an ounce of the pain gay and perceived gay bully victims feel.
Personally I'm glad this guys feelings are hurt. Now he know an ounce of the pain gay and perceived gay bully victims feel.
132
Even though he's right, that most churches have more crap to worry about than telling their congregants not to be gay (because honestly, we've got a much bigger problem with the adulterers, liars, people stealing from the church, hypocrites...we sin better and faster than anyone, anywhere), Dan Savage is really not the one to go to for setting the record straight. Maybe, maybe if one preacher in the entire country spewed hate, Christians would deserve a break. But there are enough, in big churches and in small, for Dan to be justified in calling them out. If you want this to change George, you need to moving the church towards change from the inside out, not lecturing commentators for commentating on a fairly wide-spread phenomenon.
134
@107 - I read your novel as well. Great story.
As a UU, I've always felt that we were UCC's crazy younger sibling. Whenever one of us has a question about Christianity, we go down the street to the UCC church. (Our local UCC also has an awesome Tai Chi program.)
Speaking for the UUs, we also focus on what you do not why you do it, which is why we have christians, jews, pagans, agnostics, atheists, etc, all in the same gathering. When I try to explain UU to someone unfamiliar, I say we have just one commandment: Don't Be An Asshole. If you aren't an asshole because of the precepts of Christianity, great! If you take parts of the bible out and use that as a justification to act like an asshole, you will not be tolerated. (That's the only thing we don't tolerate - intolerance.)
And to George S.: I love that you think shunning "those people" in your congregation is perfectly fine as long as you do it with a hug. And please do this mental exercise: Imagine there's an attribute about yourself that you couldn't change but if you revealed it would cause you to leave the church that you admire and that church to shun you. How "emotionally devastating" do you think that would be? And that's what your choir director went through. So George, practice some basic empathy.
As a UU, I've always felt that we were UCC's crazy younger sibling. Whenever one of us has a question about Christianity, we go down the street to the UCC church. (Our local UCC also has an awesome Tai Chi program.)
Speaking for the UUs, we also focus on what you do not why you do it, which is why we have christians, jews, pagans, agnostics, atheists, etc, all in the same gathering. When I try to explain UU to someone unfamiliar, I say we have just one commandment: Don't Be An Asshole. If you aren't an asshole because of the precepts of Christianity, great! If you take parts of the bible out and use that as a justification to act like an asshole, you will not be tolerated. (That's the only thing we don't tolerate - intolerance.)
And to George S.: I love that you think shunning "those people" in your congregation is perfectly fine as long as you do it with a hug. And please do this mental exercise: Imagine there's an attribute about yourself that you couldn't change but if you revealed it would cause you to leave the church that you admire and that church to shun you. How "emotionally devastating" do you think that would be? And that's what your choir director went through. So George, practice some basic empathy.
135
True story from my youth, some twenty some years ago. I've had coffee, so it's long.
I was a teenage Episcopalian "holy roller" - sang in choir; altar girl; president of the youth group. It's not so much that I thought I was gonna go to heaven, as the lights/music/windows were pretty, & I grew up in a pretty rough neighborhood, & that's where it was easiest to make friends.
Around when I turned 12, there was a huge influx of gay couples into our church. (Later I found out that their church had closed down.) Since my hormones were going crazy, this sudden influx of handsome, seemingly single men brought a new level of interest to the surroundings. But something seemed off. They only traveled in pairs. They started doing all the hardest work of the parish once they got involved; visiting the mentally ill, collecting for charity.
And yet, some of the oldest, longest-attending members of our church stopped coming to services when the new folks showed up. I didn't yet know I was bi, myself, and don't laugh, but this was 20-some years ago - I didn't grok that the men (& a few women) who'd just joined up, were gay. I just knew I felt some weird pang of sympathy with them that I couldn't identify.
When the folks who had been my ride to church stopped going, I met w/ the pastor in his office. What was the deal here? I asked him. Why are the old-timers dropping off? What's different?
As gently as possible (I say on reflection) he told me the deal. That the new parish additions weren't single, but couples. They were gay, and in the Bible, that is said to be wrong. His choice of words was very careful; that is also clear in hindsight. His sermons had become all about patience and tolerance.
I remember being shocked, first by the concept of all those hunky guys being suddenly off the table, but then by the idea that the longtime parish members had stopped going, because of who the new people loved.
So, the new folks, they're like..married? I asked.
Well, as good as, the pastor responded, but they can't get married.
Well, why not? I asked. They are always with --the same-- guy (or gal). So that's like being married.
The church says they can't get married, replied the pastor.
But I thought the main thing was, love your neighbor? I asked. He looked sad & tired. He said that was true, but that there were other parts of the Bible which said these kinds of relationships, would keep those in them out of heaven.
He looked like he was gonna go on, but I remember standing up, & pulling the alb off over my head, & unbuttoning the cassock. I just put them on the chair, and said, these new people are doing all the hard stuff, but they're not gonna get to heaven? They sing, and read, and do pastries for the coffee after, but that's not enough? They're not okay? Well, this isn't for me. & I called my dad & had him pick me up. I didn't go back. I missed singing in the choir the most. But that just didn't seem right to me.
I was still stuck going to Catholic school, but the topic wasn't addressed there. Folks were only starting to come out in the late 80's/early 90's en masse.
Years later, I ran into a lay deacon from my former church, & realized immediately that he was obviously gay. By having him there, and the carefully chosen words of the minister at the time, I realize now that my church was progressive as all get out. It just didn't happen fast enough for me when I was 12 or 13. ;) Again, I wasn't aware I was bisexual, yet, so that I'd been speaking up for me, too. It just didn't seem fair to the hard-workin' new church members.
***
Dear George S.,
The reason your story stinks, is that being gay should not have been reason for your organist or choirmaster to leave. He should have had every right to make a joyful noise unto the Lord with the rest of the people his worshiped with & considered his spiritual family. Whether his outing himself made HIM realize he had to leave, or the pastor asked him to, the message is the same: if you are gay, you are lesser. You don't belong here.
That must have hurt him. How is that Christian? Where is the turn the other cheek, or do unto others, in that happening?
Jesus was a progressive revolutionary. His preaching of love for others & care for the poor was shocking in its day. It's a shame that Christians who shun gay people are treating them like the lepers that Jesus embraced. Now they complain when this hypocrisy is pointed out to them.
George S., if you had any idea of the overwhelming psychological effects of being bullied, or being told that Jesus/your congregation doesn't love you because of your "inclinations", you'd see how UN-Christian rejecting someone from your church for being gay, is.
Church folks don't wanna have gay marriage in their church? Fine. It's a private institution. Whatever. But to whine about how unfair it is that someone points out hypocrisy, while waving goodbye to your organist..can you not see how blind that is?
Gah.
More...
I was a teenage Episcopalian "holy roller" - sang in choir; altar girl; president of the youth group. It's not so much that I thought I was gonna go to heaven, as the lights/music/windows were pretty, & I grew up in a pretty rough neighborhood, & that's where it was easiest to make friends.
Around when I turned 12, there was a huge influx of gay couples into our church. (Later I found out that their church had closed down.) Since my hormones were going crazy, this sudden influx of handsome, seemingly single men brought a new level of interest to the surroundings. But something seemed off. They only traveled in pairs. They started doing all the hardest work of the parish once they got involved; visiting the mentally ill, collecting for charity.
And yet, some of the oldest, longest-attending members of our church stopped coming to services when the new folks showed up. I didn't yet know I was bi, myself, and don't laugh, but this was 20-some years ago - I didn't grok that the men (& a few women) who'd just joined up, were gay. I just knew I felt some weird pang of sympathy with them that I couldn't identify.
When the folks who had been my ride to church stopped going, I met w/ the pastor in his office. What was the deal here? I asked him. Why are the old-timers dropping off? What's different?
As gently as possible (I say on reflection) he told me the deal. That the new parish additions weren't single, but couples. They were gay, and in the Bible, that is said to be wrong. His choice of words was very careful; that is also clear in hindsight. His sermons had become all about patience and tolerance.
I remember being shocked, first by the concept of all those hunky guys being suddenly off the table, but then by the idea that the longtime parish members had stopped going, because of who the new people loved.
So, the new folks, they're like..married? I asked.
Well, as good as, the pastor responded, but they can't get married.
Well, why not? I asked. They are always with --the same-- guy (or gal). So that's like being married.
The church says they can't get married, replied the pastor.
But I thought the main thing was, love your neighbor? I asked. He looked sad & tired. He said that was true, but that there were other parts of the Bible which said these kinds of relationships, would keep those in them out of heaven.
He looked like he was gonna go on, but I remember standing up, & pulling the alb off over my head, & unbuttoning the cassock. I just put them on the chair, and said, these new people are doing all the hard stuff, but they're not gonna get to heaven? They sing, and read, and do pastries for the coffee after, but that's not enough? They're not okay? Well, this isn't for me. & I called my dad & had him pick me up. I didn't go back. I missed singing in the choir the most. But that just didn't seem right to me.
I was still stuck going to Catholic school, but the topic wasn't addressed there. Folks were only starting to come out in the late 80's/early 90's en masse.
Years later, I ran into a lay deacon from my former church, & realized immediately that he was obviously gay. By having him there, and the carefully chosen words of the minister at the time, I realize now that my church was progressive as all get out. It just didn't happen fast enough for me when I was 12 or 13. ;) Again, I wasn't aware I was bisexual, yet, so that I'd been speaking up for me, too. It just didn't seem fair to the hard-workin' new church members.
***
Dear George S.,
The reason your story stinks, is that being gay should not have been reason for your organist or choirmaster to leave. He should have had every right to make a joyful noise unto the Lord with the rest of the people his worshiped with & considered his spiritual family. Whether his outing himself made HIM realize he had to leave, or the pastor asked him to, the message is the same: if you are gay, you are lesser. You don't belong here.
That must have hurt him. How is that Christian? Where is the turn the other cheek, or do unto others, in that happening?
Jesus was a progressive revolutionary. His preaching of love for others & care for the poor was shocking in its day. It's a shame that Christians who shun gay people are treating them like the lepers that Jesus embraced. Now they complain when this hypocrisy is pointed out to them.
George S., if you had any idea of the overwhelming psychological effects of being bullied, or being told that Jesus/your congregation doesn't love you because of your "inclinations", you'd see how UN-Christian rejecting someone from your church for being gay, is.
Church folks don't wanna have gay marriage in their church? Fine. It's a private institution. Whatever. But to whine about how unfair it is that someone points out hypocrisy, while waving goodbye to your organist..can you not see how blind that is?
Gah.
137
Only two comments about apostrophes?
Really? Damn. Sloggers are falling down on the job.
God hates superfluous apostrophes. Says so on my neon poster.
Really? Damn. Sloggers are falling down on the job.
God hates superfluous apostrophes. Says so on my neon poster.
138
Eva Hopkins, that's a great story, too! It's so hard for adults to explain officially sanctioned hypocrisy to children, who are so literal. It does sound like your church was doing all it could at the time to make the new people feel welcome, that must've been a relief, in hindsight. I, too, had a similar experience when two very good-looking men moved in next door to us (I lusted after one more than the other). I think there's a kind of willful-teenage-hormone-blindness that happens...my mom got sick of listening to my crushing, and finally said, "Honey, he's 30, with a really good job...he doesn't *have* to have a roommate to help with the rent..."
139
@135 Oh, that's a great story. Your poor pastor, got it from both ends -- ppl outraged he gave them any rights, and ppl outraged they didn't get any rights...
And there are none so blind as will not see, eh? I had to laugh at the various stories -- BTDT...
And there are none so blind as will not see, eh? I had to laugh at the various stories -- BTDT...
140
"why is it always the organist?" Dan says.
I dunno either, and neither does my gay choir director/organist friend, but around here there is a guild of organists and my friend told me that all the male organist members of the guild were gay with the exception of one.
So, if a church around here wanted a straight organist, they'd have a hard time finding one from the guild, which is where most churches around here would go for an organist.
The first gay church organist that I knew was gay was murdered between three or four decades ago, (not by anyone in the church). My father said it was because he was gay. The term "hate crime" wasn't around back then but that's the kind of thing my father implied it was. Some bastards killed him just because he was gay.
I dunno either, and neither does my gay choir director/organist friend, but around here there is a guild of organists and my friend told me that all the male organist members of the guild were gay with the exception of one.
So, if a church around here wanted a straight organist, they'd have a hard time finding one from the guild, which is where most churches around here would go for an organist.
The first gay church organist that I knew was gay was murdered between three or four decades ago, (not by anyone in the church). My father said it was because he was gay. The term "hate crime" wasn't around back then but that's the kind of thing my father implied it was. Some bastards killed him just because he was gay.
141
Thanks, BEG. & Canuck, that's priceless, about the neighbor not needing a roommate. ;) Poor you/your poor mom. Thank goodness my gaydar kicked in after that, I only had one for-real gay crush. & now my gay boyfriends are some of my nearest & dearest.
143
this is what abraham hicks has to say about homosexuality, very cool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPeH25G5m…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPeH25G5m…
145
this is what abraham hicks has to say about homosexuality, very cool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPeH25G5m…
this is what abraham hicks has to say about homosexuality, very cool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPeH25G5m…
146
George's premise is WAY off. Half this country opposes gay marriage. And if you ask them why, I'm guessing 90% would use the Bible to back them up, despite the fact that 98% of married hets have engaged in pre-marital porking.
If the same standard was applied to hets that is applied to gays ("you can't get married because it's a sin"), only 1 in 50 hets would be allowed to get married. If you take out the masturbators, also a sin, that's even less hets eligible for marriage.
And word to the homophobes, I'm just as grossed out by man-on-woman plowing as you are by gay sex but I would never deny your rights simply because I'm skeeved out by your gross penetration. I actually believe that heterosexual sex is "unnatural" because men and women are so inherently different emotionally/sexually.
Also, has anyone ever met an atheist homophobe? It's as rare as a racist homosexual. So I doubt the half of the country against gay marriage is comprised of non-believers.
If the same standard was applied to hets that is applied to gays ("you can't get married because it's a sin"), only 1 in 50 hets would be allowed to get married. If you take out the masturbators, also a sin, that's even less hets eligible for marriage.
And word to the homophobes, I'm just as grossed out by man-on-woman plowing as you are by gay sex but I would never deny your rights simply because I'm skeeved out by your gross penetration. I actually believe that heterosexual sex is "unnatural" because men and women are so inherently different emotionally/sexually.
Also, has anyone ever met an atheist homophobe? It's as rare as a racist homosexual. So I doubt the half of the country against gay marriage is comprised of non-believers.
147
@146 I hate to tell you how many racist homos I've met over the years. I've been excited by a guy's attention, then out comes some comment on race or religion.
The sad fact is that '-isms' know no bounds.
The sad fact is that '-isms' know no bounds.
148
Oh, LW... your organist had to leave his faith community because he was gay. You wish him well, but prefer that he is elsewhere. You call him one of "those people." Yet, you don't see how your conduct is intolerant, unwelcoming and bullying.
Yes. Bullying. Politely bullying, perhaps, but bullying. He had to leave his faith community because he was gay. He might be welcome to praise Jesus, but not with y'all. Jesus sat down to dinner with whores and tax collectors, but y'all can't share a pew with a gay organist. Your church drove him out. You're happy with that.
You deserve to be called a bully. It's not hate speech. It's a fact.
Yes. Bullying. Politely bullying, perhaps, but bullying. He had to leave his faith community because he was gay. He might be welcome to praise Jesus, but not with y'all. Jesus sat down to dinner with whores and tax collectors, but y'all can't share a pew with a gay organist. Your church drove him out. You're happy with that.
You deserve to be called a bully. It's not hate speech. It's a fact.
150
It's guaranteed that such talk about gays and the church will bring out the troll with clever screen names. I tend to think it's Loveschild reincarnated.
151
@146 Uh, no. Gay men can be some of the most racist and misogynist people you'll ever meet. Notice how LGBT issues like DADT and gay marriage is always framed around the experiences of middle class, white, gay men? The majority of gay marriages and people discharged under DADT are lesbians. Same goes for other groups - feminism is almost always framed around the experiences of white, middle class, cisgender women.
Being a minority in one arena of society does not make a person impervious to prejudice or stripped of the blinders of privilege.
Being a minority in one arena of society does not make a person impervious to prejudice or stripped of the blinders of privilege.
152
Sorry George, but your church either isn't THAT Bible-based (Leviticus tells us to kill teh gays; well, the male ones) or isn't accepting of teh gays. And, by the way, how does forcing your gay organist out of the church NOT count as bullying?
@151: Too true; thankfully, much of contemporary Feminist Theory and Queer Theory is seeking to address this. Of course, the visible "mainstream" gay rights movements are mostly White and middle-class; this is largely because people who are only subject to the oppression side of one or two identity-binaries that operate as vectors of privilege/oppression have many more resources to advocate for themselves with respect to their remaining vectors of oppression. Identity categories are mutually-constructive and tend to convolve each other exponentially. So, while on a theoretical level it may be possible to subvert identity binaries as a system, in practical terms we're stuck within a system in which binaries are still very much extant, and it is often most expedient to seek marginal gains within that system. I would guess a majority of people involved in equal-rights activism would be motivated to examine their own privilege once they are made aware of it, and we are making some strides in this direction, though we're certainly nowhere near a unified pan-identity equality movement. Too, many queer-persons-of-color face strong resistance from within their own racial/ethnic communities and cultural loci; the civil rights strategy for mainstream movements within communities-of-color has been one of seeking equality within an extant system (heteronormative patriarchy), and queer-persons-of-color are often viewed by these movements as undermining the efforts to overcome racism - they are seen as "race traitors", something with which queer White persons do not have to contend as they are not also working against a racial vector of privilege (as a disadvantaged object of such a system; obviously they may be involved in ally-activism).
More...
@151: Too true; thankfully, much of contemporary Feminist Theory and Queer Theory is seeking to address this. Of course, the visible "mainstream" gay rights movements are mostly White and middle-class; this is largely because people who are only subject to the oppression side of one or two identity-binaries that operate as vectors of privilege/oppression have many more resources to advocate for themselves with respect to their remaining vectors of oppression. Identity categories are mutually-constructive and tend to convolve each other exponentially. So, while on a theoretical level it may be possible to subvert identity binaries as a system, in practical terms we're stuck within a system in which binaries are still very much extant, and it is often most expedient to seek marginal gains within that system. I would guess a majority of people involved in equal-rights activism would be motivated to examine their own privilege once they are made aware of it, and we are making some strides in this direction, though we're certainly nowhere near a unified pan-identity equality movement. Too, many queer-persons-of-color face strong resistance from within their own racial/ethnic communities and cultural loci; the civil rights strategy for mainstream movements within communities-of-color has been one of seeking equality within an extant system (heteronormative patriarchy), and queer-persons-of-color are often viewed by these movements as undermining the efforts to overcome racism - they are seen as "race traitors", something with which queer White persons do not have to contend as they are not also working against a racial vector of privilege (as a disadvantaged object of such a system; obviously they may be involved in ally-activism).
153
Sorry George, but your church either isn't THAT Bible-based (Leviticus tells us to kill teh gays; well, the male ones) or isn't accepting of teh gays. And, by the way, how does forcing your gay organist out of the church NOT count as bullying?
@151: Too true; thankfully, much of contemporary Feminist Theory and Queer Theory is seeking to address this. Of course, the visible "mainstream" gay rights movements are mostly White and middle-class; this is largely because people who are only subject to the oppression side of one or two identity-binaries that operate as vectors of privilege/oppression have many more resources to advocate for themselves with respect to their remaining vectors of oppression. Identity categories are mutually-constructive and tend to convolve each other exponentially. So, while on a theoretical level it may be possible to subvert identity binaries as a system, in practical terms we're stuck within a system in which binaries are still very much extant, and it is often most expedient to seek marginal gains within that system. I would guess a majority of people involved in equal-rights activism would be motivated to examine their own privilege once they are made aware of it, and we are making some strides in this direction, though we're certainly nowhere near a unified pan-identity equality movement. Too, many queer-persons-of-color face strong resistance from within their own racial/ethnic communities and cultural loci; the civil rights strategy for mainstream movements within communities-of-color has been one of seeking equality within an extant system (heteronormative patriarchy), and queer-persons-of-color are often viewed by these movements as undermining the efforts to overcome racism - they are seen as "race traitors", something with which queer White persons do not have to contend as they are not also working against a racial vector of privilege (as a disadvantaged object of such a system; obviously they may be involved in ally-activism).
More...
@151: Too true; thankfully, much of contemporary Feminist Theory and Queer Theory is seeking to address this. Of course, the visible "mainstream" gay rights movements are mostly White and middle-class; this is largely because people who are only subject to the oppression side of one or two identity-binaries that operate as vectors of privilege/oppression have many more resources to advocate for themselves with respect to their remaining vectors of oppression. Identity categories are mutually-constructive and tend to convolve each other exponentially. So, while on a theoretical level it may be possible to subvert identity binaries as a system, in practical terms we're stuck within a system in which binaries are still very much extant, and it is often most expedient to seek marginal gains within that system. I would guess a majority of people involved in equal-rights activism would be motivated to examine their own privilege once they are made aware of it, and we are making some strides in this direction, though we're certainly nowhere near a unified pan-identity equality movement. Too, many queer-persons-of-color face strong resistance from within their own racial/ethnic communities and cultural loci; the civil rights strategy for mainstream movements within communities-of-color has been one of seeking equality within an extant system (heteronormative patriarchy), and queer-persons-of-color are often viewed by these movements as undermining the efforts to overcome racism - they are seen as "race traitors", something with which queer White persons do not have to contend as they are not also working against a racial vector of privilege (as a disadvantaged object of such a system; obviously they may be involved in ally-activism).
154
Sorry George, but your church either isn't THAT Bible-based (Leviticus tells us to kill teh gays; well, the male ones) or isn't accepting of teh gays. And, by the way, how does forcing your gay organist out of the church NOT count as bullying?
@151: Too true; thankfully, much of contemporary Feminist Theory and Queer Theory is seeking to address this. Of course, the visible "mainstream" gay rights movements are mostly White and middle-class; this is largely because people who are only subject to the oppression side of one or two identity-binaries that operate as vectors of privilege/oppression have many more resources to advocate for themselves with respect to their remaining vectors of oppression. Identity categories are mutually-constructive and tend to convolve each other exponentially. So, while on a theoretical level it may be possible to subvert identity binaries as a system, in practical terms we're stuck within a system in which binaries are still very much extant, and it is often most expedient to seek marginal gains within that system. I would guess a majority of people involved in equal-rights activism would be motivated to examine their own privilege once they are made aware of it, and we are making some strides in this direction, though we're certainly nowhere near a unified pan-identity equality movement. Too, many queer-persons-of-color face strong resistance from within their own racial/ethnic communities and cultural loci; the civil rights strategy for mainstream movements within communities-of-color has been one of seeking equality within an extant system (heteronormative patriarchy), and queer-persons-of-color are often viewed by these movements as undermining the efforts to overcome racism - they are seen as "race traitors", something with which queer White persons do not have to contend as they are not also working against a racial vector of privilege (as a disadvantaged object of such a system; obviously they may be involved in ally-activism).
More...
@151: Too true; thankfully, much of contemporary Feminist Theory and Queer Theory is seeking to address this. Of course, the visible "mainstream" gay rights movements are mostly White and middle-class; this is largely because people who are only subject to the oppression side of one or two identity-binaries that operate as vectors of privilege/oppression have many more resources to advocate for themselves with respect to their remaining vectors of oppression. Identity categories are mutually-constructive and tend to convolve each other exponentially. So, while on a theoretical level it may be possible to subvert identity binaries as a system, in practical terms we're stuck within a system in which binaries are still very much extant, and it is often most expedient to seek marginal gains within that system. I would guess a majority of people involved in equal-rights activism would be motivated to examine their own privilege once they are made aware of it, and we are making some strides in this direction, though we're certainly nowhere near a unified pan-identity equality movement. Too, many queer-persons-of-color face strong resistance from within their own racial/ethnic communities and cultural loci; the civil rights strategy for mainstream movements within communities-of-color has been one of seeking equality within an extant system (heteronormative patriarchy), and queer-persons-of-color are often viewed by these movements as undermining the efforts to overcome racism - they are seen as "race traitors", something with which queer White persons do not have to contend as they are not also working against a racial vector of privilege (as a disadvantaged object of such a system; obviously they may be involved in ally-activism).
155
John Horstman: Years ago when I was a Hotline listener at AIDS Project Los Angeles, Tom Mosely, the tall, stunningly handsome black guy who helped run the line described himself as, "Black and gay! Minority squared!"
157
@52 - on another post you claimed NOT to be a Christian. Well, you sure talk like one now.
Christ wouldn't recognize you as one, though. There's so much hate in you that you aren't addressing. So I'm going to believe your previous assertion.
Christ wouldn't recognize you as one, though. There's so much hate in you that you aren't addressing. So I'm going to believe your previous assertion.
158
There may be Christians out there who don't hate LGTB people. But that does not change the fact that the INSTITUTION of Christianity (most of them, even the most liberal) say that practicing homosexuality is a sin, it is an abomination, it is wrong, and you will go to hell for it. A gay kid should not have to live with that kind of bashing, hateful, insidious, soul-killing rhetoric. No one should have to live with that choice of being who you are or going to hell. Completely ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as blaming women for the original sin...
159
"But it is legal for "Christians" to say that—even to children—and it should be legal."
I completely agree. While this is hurtful speech, our goal should not be to try and censor people.
The biggest issue with this is that people are being censored, and it is not the Christians. It's the people who are trying to make life better for gay youth being bullied in school.
I completely agree. While this is hurtful speech, our goal should not be to try and censor people.
The biggest issue with this is that people are being censored, and it is not the Christians. It's the people who are trying to make life better for gay youth being bullied in school.
161
Hello George.
Thank you for writing your letter to Dan Savage. I read your letter and I felt your pain at being singled out for behavior you don't see in your church or in yourself. If I was planning on being a minister, I would take criticism of my church very personally.
I wanted to write and address one thing you mentioned in your letter. It was the idea that only a few Christian churches "preach from the pulpit against homosexuality" while the majority do not.
I think when Dan Savage talks about "bullying from the pulpit" he isn't just referring to the frightening spectacle of a priest leading a "God hates Fags" chant on Sunday morning. You're right: that kind of preaching is (thankfully) rare and gives mainstream Christianity a bad rap.
Here's what happened in my church when I was young (1982-1992). Our priest would speak about people who were living a righteous life, and therefore going to heaven, and people who were living an unrighteous life, and therefore going to hell. Then, a few weeks later, he would casually mention some of the things going on in society that were 'distasteful' or 'wrong': pornography, teaching homosexuality in schools and adultery, for example.
What Dan realizes, and what I and many slog commenters realize, is that this is preaching division. There are these things that are bad, people who are involved with them are bad, and bad people go to hell Division (us and them, our people and you people) leads to hatred. Hatred leads to bullying.
You are right, George, that very few priests will say from the pulpit that we (we being Christians) should bully young gay children. I think many priests would be and are shocked that they are being accused of being part of the problem.
It is my hope that Christians will start conversations about these suicides and ask some very hard questions about their faith and the effect it is having on the world. Criticism is, after all, ultimately about making things better.
Thank you again George. Your letter gave me alot of food for thought.
More...
Thank you for writing your letter to Dan Savage. I read your letter and I felt your pain at being singled out for behavior you don't see in your church or in yourself. If I was planning on being a minister, I would take criticism of my church very personally.
I wanted to write and address one thing you mentioned in your letter. It was the idea that only a few Christian churches "preach from the pulpit against homosexuality" while the majority do not.
I think when Dan Savage talks about "bullying from the pulpit" he isn't just referring to the frightening spectacle of a priest leading a "God hates Fags" chant on Sunday morning. You're right: that kind of preaching is (thankfully) rare and gives mainstream Christianity a bad rap.
Here's what happened in my church when I was young (1982-1992). Our priest would speak about people who were living a righteous life, and therefore going to heaven, and people who were living an unrighteous life, and therefore going to hell. Then, a few weeks later, he would casually mention some of the things going on in society that were 'distasteful' or 'wrong': pornography, teaching homosexuality in schools and adultery, for example.
What Dan realizes, and what I and many slog commenters realize, is that this is preaching division. There are these things that are bad, people who are involved with them are bad, and bad people go to hell Division (us and them, our people and you people) leads to hatred. Hatred leads to bullying.
You are right, George, that very few priests will say from the pulpit that we (we being Christians) should bully young gay children. I think many priests would be and are shocked that they are being accused of being part of the problem.
It is my hope that Christians will start conversations about these suicides and ask some very hard questions about their faith and the effect it is having on the world. Criticism is, after all, ultimately about making things better.
Thank you again George. Your letter gave me alot of food for thought.
162
@161
Thank you, Canadian Joe, for a very thoughtful letter. One of the best I've ever seen on SLOG, and, in fact, worthy of a guest editorial in The Stranger (IMHO).
Thank you, Canadian Joe, for a very thoughtful letter. One of the best I've ever seen on SLOG, and, in fact, worthy of a guest editorial in The Stranger (IMHO).
163
Answer me this, George. If your pastor doesn't preach from the pulpit against homosexuality, how come it's a given that when the choir director admits to "having an inclination to being gay" (whatever the fuck that means), he has to leave the church? Either all are accepted there or not. Do you think that the choir director, who could have kept his mouth shut, spoke up knowing that he was going to lose his position on purpose? He was probably tired of living a lie and having to keep a part of him under wraps to be part of a church that was never going to accept him. That's what's going through the minds of all the gay members of your church. Adults may be able to come to terms with this, but teenagers, who learn what they live, are stuck feeling that nobody is going to accept them for who they are.
164
#40
do keep up dummy
look up "bug chasers" "bug parties" "gift givers" and come back when you have a brain.
Well put: you have met the enemy and he is you. Quit blaming religion and others for your lifestyle. Any young gay need only do online research, read about the cultural war that's been going on for 30 years, and feel suffocated by the pressure of the gay activists shoving it into the spot light day after day when the rest of us are not even half as focused on it and would rather live our lives in peace. Perhaps it is your militant gay activism that is killing your gay youth.
do keep up dummy
look up "bug chasers" "bug parties" "gift givers" and come back when you have a brain.
Well put: you have met the enemy and he is you. Quit blaming religion and others for your lifestyle. Any young gay need only do online research, read about the cultural war that's been going on for 30 years, and feel suffocated by the pressure of the gay activists shoving it into the spot light day after day when the rest of us are not even half as focused on it and would rather live our lives in peace. Perhaps it is your militant gay activism that is killing your gay youth.
168
"...mainly false..." I would like to contradict that.
I grew up in church. Many churches. We lived in what we liked to call the "Baskin Robbins" of churches. There were oodles of churches, denominations or the supposed "nondenominational". I've been to them all, Four Square, Lutheran, Catholic, Baptist, Church 'o' Christ, Methodist, and on and on and on.
Every church I have ever been forced to attend at one point in the year or more gave an anti homosexuality sermon. It was typically given pretty close to the talks on the rapture, and then end times.
In a nut shell, I was constantly scared that my thoughts towards men, (not actions at this point, just thoughts) would mean fire, being left behind and all that other fantastic stuff that happens to "sinners". For the longest time I thought I was a sex addict, mentally ill, and just pure evil.
If that's not bullying, I'm not sure what else it could be.
I grew up in church. Many churches. We lived in what we liked to call the "Baskin Robbins" of churches. There were oodles of churches, denominations or the supposed "nondenominational". I've been to them all, Four Square, Lutheran, Catholic, Baptist, Church 'o' Christ, Methodist, and on and on and on.
Every church I have ever been forced to attend at one point in the year or more gave an anti homosexuality sermon. It was typically given pretty close to the talks on the rapture, and then end times.
In a nut shell, I was constantly scared that my thoughts towards men, (not actions at this point, just thoughts) would mean fire, being left behind and all that other fantastic stuff that happens to "sinners". For the longest time I thought I was a sex addict, mentally ill, and just pure evil.
If that's not bullying, I'm not sure what else it could be.
169
"...mainly false..." I would like to contradict that.
I grew up in church. Many churches. We lived in what we liked to call the "Baskin Robbins" of churches. There were oodles of churches, denominations or the supposed "nondenominational". I've been to them all, Four Square, Lutheran, Catholic, Baptist, Church 'o' Christ, Methodist, and on and on and on.
Every church I have ever been forced to attend at one point in the year or more gave an anti homosexuality sermon. It was typically given pretty close to the talks on the rapture, and then end times.
In a nut shell, I was constantly scared that my thoughts towards men, (not actions at this point, just thoughts) would mean fire, being left behind and all that other fantastic stuff that happens to "sinners". For the longest time I thought I was a sex addict, mentally ill, and just pure evil.
If that's not bullying, I'm not sure what else it could be.
I grew up in church. Many churches. We lived in what we liked to call the "Baskin Robbins" of churches. There were oodles of churches, denominations or the supposed "nondenominational". I've been to them all, Four Square, Lutheran, Catholic, Baptist, Church 'o' Christ, Methodist, and on and on and on.
Every church I have ever been forced to attend at one point in the year or more gave an anti homosexuality sermon. It was typically given pretty close to the talks on the rapture, and then end times.
In a nut shell, I was constantly scared that my thoughts towards men, (not actions at this point, just thoughts) would mean fire, being left behind and all that other fantastic stuff that happens to "sinners". For the longest time I thought I was a sex addict, mentally ill, and just pure evil.
If that's not bullying, I'm not sure what else it could be.
170
I'm with @80. I'm also out loud and proud to be a member of the United Church of Christ. Which, as a national denomination, has a statement FOR marriage equality and AGAINST gay bullying. Check it out here: http://www.ucc.org/lgbt/.
My home church in Seattle holds same-sex commitment ceremonies and there are numerous gay and lesbian families with children in the congregation. As our motto says, "Whoever you are and wherever you are on life's journey, you are welcome here". And hey, didja know that Obama is a member of the UCC? Nah, neither did the rest of the United States.
My home church in Seattle holds same-sex commitment ceremonies and there are numerous gay and lesbian families with children in the congregation. As our motto says, "Whoever you are and wherever you are on life's journey, you are welcome here". And hey, didja know that Obama is a member of the UCC? Nah, neither did the rest of the United States.
172
Is it just me or does there seem to be an oddly high proportion of offended Christians and kooky libertarians that read the Stranger? What for? To constantly march out and like whipped martyrs and whine about how said publication is always wrong? Weird. Outrage hormones must be addictive.
173
"We for the most part really don't care what you people do. You live your lifestyle, and we live ours."
The assumption here is that no one in your congregation is gay. Think of your choir director. Think of the suffering he endured before having the courage to come out. He couldn't stay with "you people", could he? Now imagine a 12-year-old boy in your congregation who feels the way the choir director did... only he's not an adult with free will and the ability to express himself, he's a child living with two parents who think it's wrong to be gay. Imagine how terrified he must be. He's hiding who he is, and because of your "you people" attitude, he lives in fear that someone will find out. He's miserable. He's probably getting picked on by his peers (kids have a hound dog's ability to sniff out anything or anyone "different") who, being raised that homosexuality is an abomination, make him a target. It's not enough that you yourself don't bully gays. It's not enough that the pastor doesn't preach against gays. The point is that you think being gay is something wrong, something to cry over. So the pastor didn't punch the gay confessor in the face, didn't set him on fire. He sent him away. Do you think that example helps the 12-year-old kid? He's thinking, "I can never tell, or that's what will happen to me." And until you stop with the Abomination crap, gay kids will keep offing themselves rather than tell you the truth.
The assumption here is that no one in your congregation is gay. Think of your choir director. Think of the suffering he endured before having the courage to come out. He couldn't stay with "you people", could he? Now imagine a 12-year-old boy in your congregation who feels the way the choir director did... only he's not an adult with free will and the ability to express himself, he's a child living with two parents who think it's wrong to be gay. Imagine how terrified he must be. He's hiding who he is, and because of your "you people" attitude, he lives in fear that someone will find out. He's miserable. He's probably getting picked on by his peers (kids have a hound dog's ability to sniff out anything or anyone "different") who, being raised that homosexuality is an abomination, make him a target. It's not enough that you yourself don't bully gays. It's not enough that the pastor doesn't preach against gays. The point is that you think being gay is something wrong, something to cry over. So the pastor didn't punch the gay confessor in the face, didn't set him on fire. He sent him away. Do you think that example helps the 12-year-old kid? He's thinking, "I can never tell, or that's what will happen to me." And until you stop with the Abomination crap, gay kids will keep offing themselves rather than tell you the truth.
174
I think apparently redundant phrases like "Bible-believing Christians" and "Biblically-based church" are meant to imply that there are supposed Christians / churches that aren't Biblically-based.
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