Slog
News & ArtsWednesday, October 6, 2010
2
"Bigotry is less popular these days"
I dunno but I vomited in my mask at this guy.
It's so better people are saying I'm sorry
I dunno but I vomited in my mask at this guy.
It's so better people are saying I'm sorry
5
This is just brilliant. I love how the description of his life gets worse and worse in a series of little asides. That’s comedy gold.
7
Of course it isn't for real! It's satire, and really good satire at that. I mean come on! He goes from being the manager to the assistant manager to the night shift assistant manager at Foot Locker which morphs into Lady Footlocker? SATIRE.
8
@1 No, really?!
I love this. I was dreading it being a serious It Gets Worse video like the two that were posted on AfterElton.
I love this. I was dreading it being a serious It Gets Worse video like the two that were posted on AfterElton.
11
{raises hand} fake. Too self-reflective for a bigot. Not to mention he's detailing all the ways he's a loser, which is showing too much humility for a bully/bigot.
But the experiences and sentiments are real enough (for someone else, that is). I'd leave a man THAT SECOND if he called a man on the street a "faggot" for a PDA. Mean high school boys should know that if you hate feminine characteristics in a man then you hate women to some extent; something your girlfriend will pick up on. I don't know about associating a lack of financial success with bigotry. Bigots seem plenty successful. How about we just say it's wrong because it's wrong, not that it's wrong because it will inconvenience you or make you poorer and more lonely.
Sorry. I do go on.
But the experiences and sentiments are real enough (for someone else, that is). I'd leave a man THAT SECOND if he called a man on the street a "faggot" for a PDA. Mean high school boys should know that if you hate feminine characteristics in a man then you hate women to some extent; something your girlfriend will pick up on. I don't know about associating a lack of financial success with bigotry. Bigots seem plenty successful. How about we just say it's wrong because it's wrong, not that it's wrong because it will inconvenience you or make you poorer and more lonely.
Sorry. I do go on.
12
Yeah, totally fake.
Can I say however that the whole him and his girlfriend exchange, when she asks, "What was that?...," and he responds with, "Uhh, gays?" *hand motion implying DUHH* was actually kind of hilarious.
I'm sorry. :(
Can I say however that the whole him and his girlfriend exchange, when she asks, "What was that?...," and he responds with, "Uhh, gays?" *hand motion implying DUHH* was actually kind of hilarious.
I'm sorry. :(
14
Obviously fake, but well done nonetheless. I mean, the low cut shirt (and chest hair that dwells within), the Miller Lite in the background...how could you not think it was fake?
18
Wait, was it middle school or high school where we learned about satire? I don't remember, I was too busy dunking the faggots' heads into toilets. Or was it my head being dunked? As I said, I can't remember.
19
Everyone who bothered to point out that this was not a sincere recounting of the depicted individual's actual life story should proceed to check for cancer by comparing the size of their hand to the size of their face.,
20
The case of Miller Lite and the empty pizza box are too perfectly placed for this to be real.
Good satire, if painful to watch.
Good satire, if painful to watch.
23
Everybody just needs to watch Romy and Michelle's High School Reunion, take its message to heart, and have a good laugh.
24
"for my other monologue I'd like to do Mercutio from Romeo and Juliet followed by The Music Of The Night in G Major..."
Ah, bless him, though...
Ah, bless him, though...
25
@19: Lol.
This was hilarious. It was all in the delivery. Especially towards the end, when he started saying essentially the exact mirror image of a typical It Gets Better vid. Bravo.
This was hilarious. It was all in the delivery. Especially towards the end, when he started saying essentially the exact mirror image of a typical It Gets Better vid. Bravo.
26
Hilarious. And, uh, how do I say this? For all those people saying "fake!", there are times when I read Slog, and think "wow, some of these people are so smart, and know so much about completely random things"....this isn't one of those times.
27
@ 15 FTW!!!
@ 17 Can we take turns?
@ 22 The point is satire is more to draw attention to issues that society isn't talking about through humor or absurdity or deep, dark exaggeration. See Stephen Colbert or Jonathan Swift.
PS This is awesome!!!
@ 17 Can we take turns?
@ 22 The point is satire is more to draw attention to issues that society isn't talking about through humor or absurdity or deep, dark exaggeration. See Stephen Colbert or Jonathan Swift.
PS This is awesome!!!
28
Frankly, I am shocked by the number of people posting who completely missed the point of this video.
Yes, SATIRE. Read @7 Lissa for an example of how he used SATIRE to make a point.
Lissa, you should repost your comment every ten posts or so -- obviously folks aren't reading the other comments before weighing in.
Yes, SATIRE. Read @7 Lissa for an example of how he used SATIRE to make a point.
Lissa, you should repost your comment every ten posts or so -- obviously folks aren't reading the other comments before weighing in.
29
@27 I know the definition of satire, but thanks for clarifying. I'm sure #12 (and many others) will find it illuminating.
35
OMG, that is hilarious. The half case of beer and empty pizza boxes are perfect props. Brilliant.
37
I loved how he kept walking back from his previous statements, regarding his job and graduation. Great fun.
38
Satire, yes, but eerily accurate.
I was one of the kids picked on by the homophobes. I'm straight, but was the kid who was overweight, couldn't throw a baseball, always got picked last in PE, et cetera. Of course the harrassment included taunts about homosexuality.
About a decade after graduation, I happened to be shopping in my hometown, and stopped at a gas station. The attendant gave me a funny look, came over and introduced himself. I recognized him vaguely as one of the people from my high school. His opening conversational gambit was to launch into a wild-eyed, bizarre tirade about one of the other people in our class, who actually had been gay, how he had known it all along, wasn't it disgusting, et cetera.
I'm not sure why he thought to ally with me in that moment. Some recognition that in my case it had all just been hazing, I guess. If he had believed I was gay, I'm not sure what he would have done. He honestly seemed a little unhinged on the topic. Anyway, I finished with my gas and beat a retreat.
It's true that living well is the best revenge. Congrats on the career at the gas station, 'phobe.
I was one of the kids picked on by the homophobes. I'm straight, but was the kid who was overweight, couldn't throw a baseball, always got picked last in PE, et cetera. Of course the harrassment included taunts about homosexuality.
About a decade after graduation, I happened to be shopping in my hometown, and stopped at a gas station. The attendant gave me a funny look, came over and introduced himself. I recognized him vaguely as one of the people from my high school. His opening conversational gambit was to launch into a wild-eyed, bizarre tirade about one of the other people in our class, who actually had been gay, how he had known it all along, wasn't it disgusting, et cetera.
I'm not sure why he thought to ally with me in that moment. Some recognition that in my case it had all just been hazing, I guess. If he had believed I was gay, I'm not sure what he would have done. He honestly seemed a little unhinged on the topic. Anyway, I finished with my gas and beat a retreat.
It's true that living well is the best revenge. Congrats on the career at the gas station, 'phobe.
39
The "It Get's Worse" YouTube video is a HOAX. Gregory Bonsignore -- the self-confessing "bully" -- is an actor, television scriptwriter and playwright who identifies himself as gay on TED and apparently is clueless that no one is anonymous in the World of Google. I have sent him the following email and believe he should remove the video from YouTube and apologize:
Gregory ~
I am writing to take you to task as kindly as I can for your inappropriate "punk" video of "It Gets Worse."
I won't presume to know what you were thinking when you committed this immature act, but let me share with you how it feels as a mentor of LGBT youth to see someone mock an important, heartfelt campaign in such a cavalier manner.
My students are emotionally, mentally, spiritually and occasionally physically battered by bullies. The problem is bad everywhere and Wyoming as no different. (A comment made recently to one of my students in the halls of a local high school was "Wouldn't he look pretty tied to a buckboard fence?" I am sure you recognize the reference to Matthew Shepard's murder in 1998.)
Perhaps you don't realize that your fake bully message has the effect of minimizing real bullying. As in: "It's not so serious so I might as well make some shit up to amuse myself."
Reading the sincere comments of people who believed you were truly coming out as a bully is painful. Does it make you feel smug & smart to have pulled one over on them? Or is, perhaps, your conscience now pricking you? I hope so.
I am not going to ascribe nefarious motives to you or call you nasty names, but this does smack as disrespectful, indulgent and self-aggrandizing.
I hope you are willing to find a way to right this wrong and apologize to the folks you've misled and the children you've disrespected.
PAMELA RW KANDT
Casper, Wyoming
More...
Gregory ~
I am writing to take you to task as kindly as I can for your inappropriate "punk" video of "It Gets Worse."
I won't presume to know what you were thinking when you committed this immature act, but let me share with you how it feels as a mentor of LGBT youth to see someone mock an important, heartfelt campaign in such a cavalier manner.
My students are emotionally, mentally, spiritually and occasionally physically battered by bullies. The problem is bad everywhere and Wyoming as no different. (A comment made recently to one of my students in the halls of a local high school was "Wouldn't he look pretty tied to a buckboard fence?" I am sure you recognize the reference to Matthew Shepard's murder in 1998.)
Perhaps you don't realize that your fake bully message has the effect of minimizing real bullying. As in: "It's not so serious so I might as well make some shit up to amuse myself."
Reading the sincere comments of people who believed you were truly coming out as a bully is painful. Does it make you feel smug & smart to have pulled one over on them? Or is, perhaps, your conscience now pricking you? I hope so.
I am not going to ascribe nefarious motives to you or call you nasty names, but this does smack as disrespectful, indulgent and self-aggrandizing.
I hope you are willing to find a way to right this wrong and apologize to the folks you've misled and the children you've disrespected.
PAMELA RW KANDT
Casper, Wyoming
40
@39, good call. You should write an email to Stephen Colbert too. I've been watching his political commentary TV show, the "Colbert Report," and I've become convinced that it is one big HOAX. I looked him up on Google, and it turns out he's actually an actor, comedy writer, and television producer!
41
That guy was just great. I'm so glad he made this! It's true that it's just less and less accepted and this guy is pitch perfect.
Pay attention, bigots! It gets worse.
Pay attention, bigots! It gets worse.
44
@39 Pamela, that's the sincerest, loudest barking up the wrongest tree - really, you deserve an award.
45
Well based on people's comments this isn't the same video, but I guess it's similar? (Including obviously being fake) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71uR4WsyZ…
47
The video has been taken down. Apparently, I missed it. Maybe Pamela @39 had something to do with it?
48
Seriously?? The video gets taken down? When I read Pamela's comment, I was thinking "aw, how sweet, she really doesn't get it", but if her email, or one like it was the reason that very funny piece of satire of was removed, I'd remind those "do gooders" that having a sense of humor is essential, even when the subject is so sad--maybe even more so, in that case. And how do you know this didn't give a bunch of beaten down LGBT kids a good laugh last night? Sheesh. What did Emma Goldman say?
"If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution."
"If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution."
49
For those of you who think I was a killjoy in getting Gregory Bonsignore to pull his lame attempt at humor, obviously none of you are LGBT middle and high school students who deal with bullying every day. They did not find it funny -- rather they felt minimized and mocked and were distressed that it was a gay man doing it to them. The "It's Gets Better" Campaign is for THEM, not for the amusement of bored adults. Satire is tricky to pull off -- not even Colbert (who's an utter genius) gets it right all of the time. This was inept attempt and a lot of people on Facebook and YouTube thought it was real.
I don't get it? I am 50 year old, a straight white married woman who's been reading Dan Savage for 15 years. Give me a fucking break!
I don't get it? I am 50 year old, a straight white married woman who's been reading Dan Savage for 15 years. Give me a fucking break!
50
PamelaGRW, I'm sorry, but I thoroughly disagree with you. That video was GREAT, it is a wonderful example of someone trying to say that bullying is wrong, and nobody says that videos that give HOPE come only in non-satyrical format.
I am straight, but I look sufficiently gay that being taunted as a faggot was my lot in highschool. The 'serious' videos made me cry one after the other, seeing how much suffering, and how much post-high-school redemption there is in this world. Mr Bonsignore's video (a fitting name) made me laugh and realize again how stupid a bully is, how little he means to himself and to others. Just like the 'serious' videos, it made me feel better by showing that there are people who care.
Thank you for destroying something good, something that brought hope not through 'seriousness', but through satire. Thank you for bullying Mr Bonsignore. Thank you for thinking you knew it all, and you could speak for every single one of us who was watching these videos.
Thank you.
P.S.: if you can give us Mr Bonsignore's address, I'd be happy to write to him and ask him to put the video back. Would you please do that?
I am straight, but I look sufficiently gay that being taunted as a faggot was my lot in highschool. The 'serious' videos made me cry one after the other, seeing how much suffering, and how much post-high-school redemption there is in this world. Mr Bonsignore's video (a fitting name) made me laugh and realize again how stupid a bully is, how little he means to himself and to others. Just like the 'serious' videos, it made me feel better by showing that there are people who care.
Thank you for destroying something good, something that brought hope not through 'seriousness', but through satire. Thank you for bullying Mr Bonsignore. Thank you for thinking you knew it all, and you could speak for every single one of us who was watching these videos.
Thank you.
P.S.: if you can give us Mr Bonsignore's address, I'd be happy to write to him and ask him to put the video back. Would you please do that?
51
@49 I find it surprising that the LGBT teens with whom you work thought the video mocked them or minimized their pain--wouldn't it be just the opposite? A gay man, doing an obvious satire, telling those LGBT kids that this is what happens to their bullies: the best days of their lives were in middle school, and they will evolve into Miller-drinking, night manager at a chain store losers. You are speaking for the LGBT kids, but what about the man who made the video (gay), and the man who approved the video for inclusion on the site (gay)? If the very people who experienced anti-gay bullying when they were in highschool found this video funny, and thought it might bring some much needed humor to a horrible situation, why should you or I (both straight women) judge that? The IGBP will no doubt be a lifesaver to a lot of kids, but along with all of the heartfelt stories, I think it's important to remember the role humor can play in this (not for "bored adults," but for the bullied kids themselves.) Sometimes humor, and laughing about what these bullies will be doing in 10 years, will be what gets a kid through another day, in my opinion, anyway.
52
I think this was funny, and Pam (#49), I would judge ('cause I judge, not pre-judge) that some might find you a humorless, bore. Ask around, am I right? As 50+ a gay man on whom bulling was attempted while an adolescent, and as an adult (I say attempted because I'm sort of a son-of-a-bitch and it never worked), this satiric piece was comforting. The larger world understand what type of people are bullies and idiots.
54
Pamela, this is the letter I would like to send to Mr Bonsignore, and with which I express my disagreement with your bullying him. I'm not really very smart with the internet, so I couldn't find him; would you please do me the favor of forwarding this to him? Thanks in advance.
---------
Gregory ~
I am writing to you to take to task those who criticized your effort at satire so vehemently, in Dan Savage's SLOG comment thread on your video and elsewhere, including by sending you uninvited letters of criticism with far-ranging accusations that, in their own way, show a form of bigotry rather than the loving inclusiveness they wish to support. I am also writing to ask you to put your video back, both for the good effects it has on people and for the example you would give to other bullied video makers.
I won't presume to know what was in the mind of your critics; perhaps they failed to notice your obvious satirical purpose and thought that you wanted to make false statements for no reason. Perhaps they thought bullied kids are too stupid to understand what you are trying to say. Perhaps they just don't trust anyone who isn't expressing the right message in exactly the "correct way" -- as if tearfulness were the only effective weapon against bullying.
Your video was misunderstood as a critique of Dan's campaign; apparently, as if you yourself were a real bully, trying to make LGBT children to feel worse about themselves, trying to thwart Dan Savage's effort to reach out for them and give them hope.
Way to misunderstand a message!... Way to go for the worst possible conclusion; way to reduce everything to the worst possible denominator!
Gregory, I was severely bullied in highschool. Despite not being gay, I was -- because of my appearance and deportment -- immediately assumed to be one, and the stigma stuck to me well into college.
One thing I remember about some of my tormentors is how serious they often were. How angry, how full of hate and spite, how seriously interested in 'making me disappear' (even though I really wasn't what they so deeply hated). Oh, there were others who were into it 'just for kicks'; they wanted to laugh and have a good time. But some were dead serious.
These serious ones -- these are the ones your video makes me remember. I can still see them, all lofty in their arrogance, so obviously convinced that the world was for them, not for me and my ilk. That we 'faggy' individuals should scurry out of sight and go die in some hole and soon as possible.
And now you show them as scurrying vermin themselves, which is what they truly are. And you tell them the right message: that this world has changed and is still changing, that it's not simply 'their world' anymore, that the place they have in it is dwindling. That someday they'll be the ones who have to scurry and die in some godforsaken hole.
I won't presume to know what you were thinking when you
committed this immature act, but let me share with you how it feels as a mentor of LGBT youth to see someone mock an important, heartfelt campaign in such a cavalier manner.
Thank you for that. Thank you so very much.
Don't pay attention to those who think you're in this only for cheap, quick laughs. Don't pay attention to those who don't get your message, who think they're doing a 'public service' by bullying you when in fact they are only repeating the very evil they wish to erradicate.
For myself, and for others who saw your video and felt its good effects -- I ask you to put it back on YouTube.
Don't let the bullies win. Give them what they deserve. Give them a surprise, give them some cognitive dissonance. Give them some reason for pause, some reason not to act on their first angry reaction to something they understand only half-way.
Thanks in advance.
SERGIO MEIRA
formerly Houston, Texas
now Leiden, The Netherlands
More...
---------
Gregory ~
I am writing to you to take to task those who criticized your effort at satire so vehemently, in Dan Savage's SLOG comment thread on your video and elsewhere, including by sending you uninvited letters of criticism with far-ranging accusations that, in their own way, show a form of bigotry rather than the loving inclusiveness they wish to support. I am also writing to ask you to put your video back, both for the good effects it has on people and for the example you would give to other bullied video makers.
I won't presume to know what was in the mind of your critics; perhaps they failed to notice your obvious satirical purpose and thought that you wanted to make false statements for no reason. Perhaps they thought bullied kids are too stupid to understand what you are trying to say. Perhaps they just don't trust anyone who isn't expressing the right message in exactly the "correct way" -- as if tearfulness were the only effective weapon against bullying.
Your video was misunderstood as a critique of Dan's campaign; apparently, as if you yourself were a real bully, trying to make LGBT children to feel worse about themselves, trying to thwart Dan Savage's effort to reach out for them and give them hope.
Way to misunderstand a message!... Way to go for the worst possible conclusion; way to reduce everything to the worst possible denominator!
Gregory, I was severely bullied in highschool. Despite not being gay, I was -- because of my appearance and deportment -- immediately assumed to be one, and the stigma stuck to me well into college.
One thing I remember about some of my tormentors is how serious they often were. How angry, how full of hate and spite, how seriously interested in 'making me disappear' (even though I really wasn't what they so deeply hated). Oh, there were others who were into it 'just for kicks'; they wanted to laugh and have a good time. But some were dead serious.
These serious ones -- these are the ones your video makes me remember. I can still see them, all lofty in their arrogance, so obviously convinced that the world was for them, not for me and my ilk. That we 'faggy' individuals should scurry out of sight and go die in some hole and soon as possible.
And now you show them as scurrying vermin themselves, which is what they truly are. And you tell them the right message: that this world has changed and is still changing, that it's not simply 'their world' anymore, that the place they have in it is dwindling. That someday they'll be the ones who have to scurry and die in some godforsaken hole.
I won't presume to know what you were thinking when you
committed this immature act, but let me share with you how it feels as a mentor of LGBT youth to see someone mock an important, heartfelt campaign in such a cavalier manner.
Thank you for that. Thank you so very much.
Don't pay attention to those who think you're in this only for cheap, quick laughs. Don't pay attention to those who don't get your message, who think they're doing a 'public service' by bullying you when in fact they are only repeating the very evil they wish to erradicate.
For myself, and for others who saw your video and felt its good effects -- I ask you to put it back on YouTube.
Don't let the bullies win. Give them what they deserve. Give them a surprise, give them some cognitive dissonance. Give them some reason for pause, some reason not to act on their first angry reaction to something they understand only half-way.
Thanks in advance.
SERGIO MEIRA
formerly Houston, Texas
now Leiden, The Netherlands
55
Damn - its been removed. I was looking forward to deliberating about it being fake/satire like the rest of you.
56
Pamela (and Mr Bonsignore), I noticed a mistake in my previous comment -- in the middle of my letter to Mr Bonsignore, I inadvertently placed one paragraph from your, Pamela, original letter:
"I won't presume to know what you were thinking when you
committed this immature act, but let me share with you how it feels as a mentor of LGBT youth to see someone mock an important, heartfelt campaign in such a cavalier manner."
Of course, this paragraph was a mistake. It has nothing to do with the message I wish to transmit. Would you please delete it before forwarding the message to Mr Bonsignore? Again, thanks in advance.
"I won't presume to know what you were thinking when you
committed this immature act, but let me share with you how it feels as a mentor of LGBT youth to see someone mock an important, heartfelt campaign in such a cavalier manner."
Of course, this paragraph was a mistake. It has nothing to do with the message I wish to transmit. Would you please delete it before forwarding the message to Mr Bonsignore? Again, thanks in advance.
57
In case you don't have the time, Pamela, here is a correct version of my letter -- without the wrong paragraph, so you don't have to remove it yourself. I again would be thankful if you could forward it to Mr Bonsignore. Thanks in advance.
------------------------
Gregory ~
I am writing to you to take to task those who criticized your effort at satire so vehemently, in Dan Savage's SLOG comment thread on your video and elsewhere, including by sending you uninvited letters of criticism with far-ranging accusations that, in their own way, show a form of bigotry rather than the loving inclusiveness they wish to support. I am also writing to ask you to put your video back, both for the good effects it has on people and for the example you would give to other bullied video makers.
I won't presume to know what was in the mind of your critics; perhaps they failed to notice your obvious satirical purpose and thought that you wanted to make false statements for no reason. Perhaps they thought bullied kids are too stupid to understand what you are trying to say. Perhaps they just don't trust anyone who isn't expressing the right message in exactly the "correct way" -- as if tearfulness were the only effective weapon against bullying.
Your video was misunderstood as a critique of Dan's campaign; apparently, as if you yourself were a real bully, trying to make LGBT children to feel worse about themselves, trying to thwart Dan Savage's effort to reach out for them and give them hope.
Way to misunderstand a message!... Way to go for the worst possible conclusion; way to reduce everything to the worst possible denominator!
Gregory, I was severely bullied in highschool. Despite not being gay, I was -- because of my appearance and deportment -- immediately assumed to be one, and the stigma stuck to me well into college.
One thing I remember about some of my tormentors is how serious they often were. How angry, how full of hate and spite, how seriously interested in 'making me disappear' (even though I really wasn't what they so deeply hated). Oh, there were others who were into it 'just for kicks'; they wanted to laugh and have a good time. But some were dead serious.
These serious ones -- these are the ones your video makes me remember. I can still see them, all lofty in their arrogance, so obviously convinced that the world was for them, not for me and my ilk. That we 'faggy' individuals should scurry out of sight and go die in some hole and soon as possible.
And now you show them as scurrying vermin themselves, which is what they truly are. And you tell them the right message: that this world has changed and is still changing, that it's not simply 'their world' anymore, that the place they have in it is dwindling. That someday they'll be the ones who have to scurry and die in some godforsaken hole.
Thank you for that. Thank you so very much.
Don't pay attention to those who think you're in this only for cheap, quick laughs. Don't pay attention to those who don't get your message, who think they're doing a 'public service' by bullying you when in fact they are only repeating the very evil they wish to erradicate.
For myself, and for others who saw your video and felt its good effects -- I ask you to put it back on YouTube.
Don't let the bullies win. Give them what they deserve. Give them a surprise, give them some cognitive dissonance. Give them some reason for pause, some reason not to act on their first angry reaction to something they understand only half-way.
Thanks in advance.
SERGIO MEIRA
formerly Houston, Texas
now Leiden, The Netherlands
More...
------------------------
Gregory ~
I am writing to you to take to task those who criticized your effort at satire so vehemently, in Dan Savage's SLOG comment thread on your video and elsewhere, including by sending you uninvited letters of criticism with far-ranging accusations that, in their own way, show a form of bigotry rather than the loving inclusiveness they wish to support. I am also writing to ask you to put your video back, both for the good effects it has on people and for the example you would give to other bullied video makers.
I won't presume to know what was in the mind of your critics; perhaps they failed to notice your obvious satirical purpose and thought that you wanted to make false statements for no reason. Perhaps they thought bullied kids are too stupid to understand what you are trying to say. Perhaps they just don't trust anyone who isn't expressing the right message in exactly the "correct way" -- as if tearfulness were the only effective weapon against bullying.
Your video was misunderstood as a critique of Dan's campaign; apparently, as if you yourself were a real bully, trying to make LGBT children to feel worse about themselves, trying to thwart Dan Savage's effort to reach out for them and give them hope.
Way to misunderstand a message!... Way to go for the worst possible conclusion; way to reduce everything to the worst possible denominator!
Gregory, I was severely bullied in highschool. Despite not being gay, I was -- because of my appearance and deportment -- immediately assumed to be one, and the stigma stuck to me well into college.
One thing I remember about some of my tormentors is how serious they often were. How angry, how full of hate and spite, how seriously interested in 'making me disappear' (even though I really wasn't what they so deeply hated). Oh, there were others who were into it 'just for kicks'; they wanted to laugh and have a good time. But some were dead serious.
These serious ones -- these are the ones your video makes me remember. I can still see them, all lofty in their arrogance, so obviously convinced that the world was for them, not for me and my ilk. That we 'faggy' individuals should scurry out of sight and go die in some hole and soon as possible.
And now you show them as scurrying vermin themselves, which is what they truly are. And you tell them the right message: that this world has changed and is still changing, that it's not simply 'their world' anymore, that the place they have in it is dwindling. That someday they'll be the ones who have to scurry and die in some godforsaken hole.
Thank you for that. Thank you so very much.
Don't pay attention to those who think you're in this only for cheap, quick laughs. Don't pay attention to those who don't get your message, who think they're doing a 'public service' by bullying you when in fact they are only repeating the very evil they wish to erradicate.
For myself, and for others who saw your video and felt its good effects -- I ask you to put it back on YouTube.
Don't let the bullies win. Give them what they deserve. Give them a surprise, give them some cognitive dissonance. Give them some reason for pause, some reason not to act on their first angry reaction to something they understand only half-way.
Thanks in advance.
SERGIO MEIRA
formerly Houston, Texas
now Leiden, The Netherlands
59
@56 Actually, ankylosaur, I think if you remove "you were" and replace it with "Pamela was", you'll find the paragraph works quite well. One person is presuming to speak for an entire community, a community that doesn't, I'd imagine, take things quite as baldly and literally as she does. For a straight woman to pressure a gay man into removing his anti-bullying/message of hope through humor for gay kids is nothing if not cavalier.
61
@Ankylosaur - I wrote to Mr. Bonsignore through his YouTube account and I am surprised by your assumption that I "bullied" him. It was actually a heartfelt letter explaining why I thought the video was inappropriate. Obviously he had a change of heart because he pulled it immediately. He's a smart enough and talented enough guy that if he thought I was wrong, he could have told me to go to hell. (Maybe all of the sincere comments from viewers got to him too.)
@Canuck - Perhaps you don't remember what it was like to be a gay 15-year-old. It's easy for us to look at this through more world-savvy eyes having the benefit of decades of experience. When you are mocked in the hallways of your school with Matthew Shepard references and your peers are blowing their heads off with daddy's gun, there's nothing "humorous" about this -- it's a little too close to home. And, in case you didn't notice, the link was NOT posted here or anywhere else as satire. Several blogs put it up in complete earnestness and people were responding equally. I have an often perverse sense of humor and as satire, this video failed. Too many people, including my teens, were not getting the joke.
I'm sorry to say that Mr. Bonsignore did not respond to my email because it would be nice if he spoke up on his own behalf. I don't believe his intent was malicious, just sorely misguided.
@Canuck - Perhaps you don't remember what it was like to be a gay 15-year-old. It's easy for us to look at this through more world-savvy eyes having the benefit of decades of experience. When you are mocked in the hallways of your school with Matthew Shepard references and your peers are blowing their heads off with daddy's gun, there's nothing "humorous" about this -- it's a little too close to home. And, in case you didn't notice, the link was NOT posted here or anywhere else as satire. Several blogs put it up in complete earnestness and people were responding equally. I have an often perverse sense of humor and as satire, this video failed. Too many people, including my teens, were not getting the joke.
I'm sorry to say that Mr. Bonsignore did not respond to my email because it would be nice if he spoke up on his own behalf. I don't believe his intent was malicious, just sorely misguided.
62
Pamela said the following:
"They did not find it funny -- rather they felt minimized and mocked and were distressed that it was a gay man doing it to them."
Sounds like she's the only one talking to actual real-life suffering LGBTQ youth. The project IS for them, not for us - we're almost all grown-ups here (can't believe I just wrote that) and satire is funniest when you have enough distance to get it. I don't think a 13 year old being taunted has enough experience and emotional space to laugh at this and again, the project is for them.
"They did not find it funny -- rather they felt minimized and mocked and were distressed that it was a gay man doing it to them."
Sounds like she's the only one talking to actual real-life suffering LGBTQ youth. The project IS for them, not for us - we're almost all grown-ups here (can't believe I just wrote that) and satire is funniest when you have enough distance to get it. I don't think a 13 year old being taunted has enough experience and emotional space to laugh at this and again, the project is for them.
63
I wonder what "terms of use violation" might include? That is, whether this video was taken down for content, misunderstood or otherwise, or something weird -- like maybe the nice folks at Miller complaining about product placement showing their product being associated with bad times and bad people? Beer, if I remember correctly, is something like 2% ingredients, and 98% marketing, packaging, and image-making. I'm actually going to be more disturbed if I find out that YouTube took this down at Miller's request rather than at someone like PamelaGRW's.
64
@ 49. Oh. My. God. Pam. Could you *be* any more pearl clutchingly obtuse?
Let's assume that a LGBT youth (or anyone for that matter) views Mr. Bonsignore's video, and mistakenly assumes that it is real. How exactly would viewing a homophobic bigot describing the karmic smack down life has dealt him, and warning others of his ilk that they can expect the same, be anything but deeply satisfying to those who have experienced bullying at similar hands?
If he were a real person, he peaked in jr high, has a crap job, no girl friend, few friends of any kind, and allllllllllllll due to his homophobia. His Life Got Worse. So the conclusion to be drawn from this video ("real" or not) would be……….? Anyone? Anyone? That's Right! Be a Homophobe and your life will get worse. QE to the mother fucking D.
Oh, and I'm a 47 year old white bi woman, and I've been reading the Stranger just as long if not longer than you. So Nyah!
Let's assume that a LGBT youth (or anyone for that matter) views Mr. Bonsignore's video, and mistakenly assumes that it is real. How exactly would viewing a homophobic bigot describing the karmic smack down life has dealt him, and warning others of his ilk that they can expect the same, be anything but deeply satisfying to those who have experienced bullying at similar hands?
If he were a real person, he peaked in jr high, has a crap job, no girl friend, few friends of any kind, and allllllllllllll due to his homophobia. His Life Got Worse. So the conclusion to be drawn from this video ("real" or not) would be……….? Anyone? Anyone? That's Right! Be a Homophobe and your life will get worse. QE to the mother fucking D.
Oh, and I'm a 47 year old white bi woman, and I've been reading the Stranger just as long if not longer than you. So Nyah!
65
I will grudgingly concede that PamelaGRW may have a point.
I, a reasonably well adjusted guy in my mid 40s, got the satire, and thought it was hilarious. But the video isn't for me. The target audience for this whole series is traumatized gay kids. How many teenagers do you know have a sophisticated enough sense of humor to understand subtle satire? Not very many. I can see how this could easily be misunderstood by teenagers. It's obvious that some of the SLOG readers even misunderstood it.
PamalaGRW may come across as a humorless shrew, but she's right. This video was funny... for clued in adults. But in the context of trying to help traumatized gay kids, it maybe wasn't the best context for subtle satire.
I, a reasonably well adjusted guy in my mid 40s, got the satire, and thought it was hilarious. But the video isn't for me. The target audience for this whole series is traumatized gay kids. How many teenagers do you know have a sophisticated enough sense of humor to understand subtle satire? Not very many. I can see how this could easily be misunderstood by teenagers. It's obvious that some of the SLOG readers even misunderstood it.
PamalaGRW may come across as a humorless shrew, but she's right. This video was funny... for clued in adults. But in the context of trying to help traumatized gay kids, it maybe wasn't the best context for subtle satire.
66
To: PamelaGRW
I was a bullied child/teen, and I survived PRECISELY by mocking those no-future idiots who were bullying me (from, I'd say, age 11 onwards). Realizing where they were heading, and where I would be ten years later, is what got me through junior and senior high.
Don't underestimate kids' intelligence, and above all, don't think you can speak in the name of LGBT people, no matter what their age is.
All you're doing is proving (as if there was a need for that), that "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". Do us all a favour and keep yours to yourself.
I was a bullied child/teen, and I survived PRECISELY by mocking those no-future idiots who were bullying me (from, I'd say, age 11 onwards). Realizing where they were heading, and where I would be ten years later, is what got me through junior and senior high.
Don't underestimate kids' intelligence, and above all, don't think you can speak in the name of LGBT people, no matter what their age is.
All you're doing is proving (as if there was a need for that), that "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". Do us all a favour and keep yours to yourself.
67
@65 I agree that not everyone got the satire aspect (obviously, if this comment thread is any indication), but I still don't understand how this video was seen as mocking LGBT kids? If you "got" the satire, it was a funny look at what becomes of bullies. If you didn't "get" the satire, you'd think it was a loser bully talking about how sucky his life is now. If a clued-in adult (like Pamela, perhaps) was discussing it with LGBT kids, she could say, "Here's this guy who is gay, like some of you, and he's pretending to be a bully and showing what losers bullies become." I fail to see how any of those possibilities mock LGBT kids. I would have thought it was a great opportunity to show one more weapon in the arsenal to be used in dealing with bullies: humor. But, as you say, that's my take on it as an adult.
68
@67 -- Great point.
Pamela, I think you missed a teaching moment. You can still go talk to the kids who you say were upset with it. The moment isn't passed completely.
Pamela, I think you missed a teaching moment. You can still go talk to the kids who you say were upset with it. The moment isn't passed completely.
69
Canuck, I see where you're coming from, but putting myself in the shoes of a bullied kid, I can imagine that seeing this guy sneeze 'faggot' would merely remind them of the thirty times bullies had done exactly that in the last two days, while shoving them into a locker in front of their peers. Where I cracked up because I remember all the idiots who did that in my sucky middle and high school (thankfully 3,000 miles and decades behind me), that's the difference. I'm remembering. Those kids are still living it.
Oh god, I wish I could give them all hugs and let them know that someday, they'll get the joke too and it'll be funny as hell.
Oh god, I wish I could give them all hugs and let them know that someday, they'll get the joke too and it'll be funny as hell.
71
@49 How can you be a Dan Savage fan and be so completely unaware of how gay-friendly SLOG is?
"...obviously none of you are LGBT middle and high school students who deal with bullying every day"
I'd be willing to bet there are a few SLOGgers who are exactly that. And dozens more who are not that far removed from living that hell themselves. Christ, this is pretty much the birthplace of IGBP!
I feel sorry for the LGBT youth that have such a kill-joy prude as a mentor. Maybe they'll learn in spite of you.
"...obviously none of you are LGBT middle and high school students who deal with bullying every day"
I'd be willing to bet there are a few SLOGgers who are exactly that. And dozens more who are not that far removed from living that hell themselves. Christ, this is pretty much the birthplace of IGBP!
I feel sorry for the LGBT youth that have such a kill-joy prude as a mentor. Maybe they'll learn in spite of you.
72
I say again, the message of this video is: Be a homophobe and your life will get worse. It *couldn't* be any clearer. It is insulting to GLBT youth to assume that they are too stupid to get that, even if they miss that the message is delivered via satire.
76
@Canuck - A teachable moment? Are you kidding me? How utterly condescending. These kids teach me more than I could ever teach them. They are living a life I can't possibly fathom: My gay friends in high school during the 1970s were never subjected to this kind of abuse. These youth are growing up in Matthew Shepard's home town. His funeral -- complete with the Fred Phelps gang -- was down the street from their school. They remember! Last year in their small school, at least two of their classmates killed themselves under questionable circumstances. Year after year after year they have watched their friends die -- starting in elementary school.
I am supposed to tell them, no fear!, the bullies will get their comeuppance in the end? Bullshit! Some of the bullies have grown up to be their teachers and prominent businessmen living the high life in the mansions on the hill. Can you imagine how it feels to a teenage boy who confides in his school nurse only to have her literally open up a Bible and bludgeon him with hateful words from Leviticus? Or for a student to be hit with a despicable comment in the hallway and then look up to see a teacher who witnessed the whole thing turn away because she not-so-secretly agrees? Get a fucking clue, people!
When the video first appeared on Facebook, someone called shenanigans and outted Bonsignore as a gay actor. Ya know what the kids said? That they didn't believe he'd actually ever been bullied or lived through what they lived through, that he was making light of the matter at their expense. (On the other hand: The "It Gets Better" campaign is MUCH appreciated -- it means a lot to them that adults care enough to take the time to tell their real stories.)
These kids need support, acceptance, tolerance, encouragement and laughter. We share a lot of laughter but Bonsignore's video wasn't funny to them.
I'm done talking. I get the impression that few of you are actually reading my comments or even personally know gay teens living in a non-supportive, often hostile environments. Let me give you a hint: It's most of this country.
@IT - Thanks for the hugs. I will pass them along, but I sure as hell won't share most of the comments here. With friends like this....
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I am supposed to tell them, no fear!, the bullies will get their comeuppance in the end? Bullshit! Some of the bullies have grown up to be their teachers and prominent businessmen living the high life in the mansions on the hill. Can you imagine how it feels to a teenage boy who confides in his school nurse only to have her literally open up a Bible and bludgeon him with hateful words from Leviticus? Or for a student to be hit with a despicable comment in the hallway and then look up to see a teacher who witnessed the whole thing turn away because she not-so-secretly agrees? Get a fucking clue, people!
When the video first appeared on Facebook, someone called shenanigans and outted Bonsignore as a gay actor. Ya know what the kids said? That they didn't believe he'd actually ever been bullied or lived through what they lived through, that he was making light of the matter at their expense. (On the other hand: The "It Gets Better" campaign is MUCH appreciated -- it means a lot to them that adults care enough to take the time to tell their real stories.)
These kids need support, acceptance, tolerance, encouragement and laughter. We share a lot of laughter but Bonsignore's video wasn't funny to them.
I'm done talking. I get the impression that few of you are actually reading my comments or even personally know gay teens living in a non-supportive, often hostile environments. Let me give you a hint: It's most of this country.
@IT - Thanks for the hugs. I will pass them along, but I sure as hell won't share most of the comments here. With friends like this....
77
PamelaGRW - You're not the humorless monster some are portraying you to be. I, and others, can see your point, and though some might find what you did offensive in itself, your heart was in the right place.
79
I'm guessing the "terms-of-use violation" comes from an interpretation of the video constructing it as furthering bullying (the use of "faggot"?). Of course, I'm not a big fan of censorship via either public policy or corporate policy - I think people SHOULD be able to bully/cuber-bully other people and should also NOT exercise that right, because it's despicable. We should revile people who engage in bullying and construct our discursive spaces to be intolerant of it, but we should not engage in institutional censorship in order to do so. For example, the Klan should be able to hold rallies calling for the death of gay people, persons-of-color, etc., and we should hold much larger counter-rallies that make THEM feel unwelcome and even unsafe. We should let people out themselves as bigots in order to allow us to make them feel unwelcome due to their bigotry. Less law, more direct (and more-direct) action.
I guess I can't really stop Google's hegemony, though. If only The Pirate Bay's censorship-free video streaming site had taken off, instead of being killed when all of the admins were arrested. :-/
Oh, in other IGBP news, Heather Corinna (founder and manager of Scarleteen.com) did a response to/write-up of the Project, including a brief interview with Dan. It's here: http://www.scarleteen.com/blog/heather_c…
I guess I can't really stop Google's hegemony, though. If only The Pirate Bay's censorship-free video streaming site had taken off, instead of being killed when all of the admins were arrested. :-/
Oh, in other IGBP news, Heather Corinna (founder and manager of Scarleteen.com) did a response to/write-up of the Project, including a brief interview with Dan. It's here: http://www.scarleteen.com/blog/heather_c…
80
Pamela, I am sure you think you did the right thing. Obviously you have good intentions. But I tell you: you did the wrong thing. This video was obviously in defense of LGTB kids, it cannot be misunderstood as mocking Dan Savage's wonderful hope campaign, and it is precisely the kind of thing that helps people survive the onslaught of bullies -- it shows how utterly stupid such homophobes are.
Or if you think I'm wrong -- if you think this video is going to give the wrong message -- can you please tell me how? What exactly in it is homophobic? What exactly in it is not going to be well understood? What wrong message exactly do you fear young LGTBs to take from it?
I agree with Cannuck -- you missed a chance to teach a good lesson. It doesn't mean you're bad, your heart is obviously in the right place. But still you did a wrong thing, and I hope you'll see that at some point.
Or if you think I'm wrong -- if you think this video is going to give the wrong message -- can you please tell me how? What exactly in it is homophobic? What exactly in it is not going to be well understood? What wrong message exactly do you fear young LGTBs to take from it?
I agree with Cannuck -- you missed a chance to teach a good lesson. It doesn't mean you're bad, your heart is obviously in the right place. But still you did a wrong thing, and I hope you'll see that at some point.
81
Pamela -- I can see your point also.
However, I went back and looked at your first post, and you started with "This is a HOAX" and went from there.
It just isn't a hoax. It never was a hoax.
I hear your pain on the part of your kids -- however, I suspect it is mingled with your own pain.
So I go back to it is a teachable moment for you. You can talk to the kids in your schools and call it what it is -- Satire. Teach them about satire. Teach them that satire doesn't always work.
By calling it a hoax, you are turning it into something it isn't. That is why we are all arguing with you, I think.
It breaks my heart to read your stories of the abuse the kids have been subjected to. Thanks for sharing them.
It Gets Better.
However, I went back and looked at your first post, and you started with "This is a HOAX" and went from there.
It just isn't a hoax. It never was a hoax.
I hear your pain on the part of your kids -- however, I suspect it is mingled with your own pain.
So I go back to it is a teachable moment for you. You can talk to the kids in your schools and call it what it is -- Satire. Teach them about satire. Teach them that satire doesn't always work.
By calling it a hoax, you are turning it into something it isn't. That is why we are all arguing with you, I think.
It breaks my heart to read your stories of the abuse the kids have been subjected to. Thanks for sharing them.
It Gets Better.
82
awww, you guys are making it sound so interesting! i'm sad they took it down before i got to see it!
84
Pamela...
I am supposed to tell them, no fear!, the bullies will get their comeuppance in the end?
No, Pamela, you're supposed to tell them that bullies have stupid beliefs that can be made fun of. As the author of this video does.
r for a student to be hit with a despicable comment in the hallway and then look up to see a teacher who witnessed the whole thing turn away because she not-so-secretly agrees? Get a fucking clue, people!
Pamela, this is exactly the kind of situation I lived through all the time in highschool. And it is the kind of situation Mr Bonsignore's video protests against, by mocking the people who do these things. Your advice -- 'why don't you get a clue' -- I return to you.
I think your brief to him is a perfect (and sad) case of friendly fire. I still keep my hope that at some point you'll see that you did the wrong thing -- just like the teacher who turns away when she sees an LGBT being bullied. Except that in your case you didn't turn away because you agreed with the bully, but because you didn't understand.
Ya know what the kids said? That they didn't believe he'd actually ever been bullied or lived through what they lived through, that he was making light of the matter at their expense.
And how about all the people here -- most of which (myself included) also also been bullied, and who GET MR BONSIGNORE'S MESSAGE?
The people in Facebook that you mention also need to get a clue.
You remind me of those people who wrote to Dan to say that his campaign was bad "because it gives the kids the impression that they should do nothing about current bullying, just 'live through it' in the hopes that it will get better later, thereby letting the bullies get away with doing what they're doing".
Just imagine if someone wrote angry letters to Dan, and all contributors, asking them to take down their videos because they thought they were actually helping bullies?
People who miss the point always think they didn't. It apparently always takes a while for them to realize that they DID miss the point. I hope you will, too, Pamela, at some point. As I said in the other message, your heart is in the right place, it's your gun that was aimed wrong.
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I am supposed to tell them, no fear!, the bullies will get their comeuppance in the end?
No, Pamela, you're supposed to tell them that bullies have stupid beliefs that can be made fun of. As the author of this video does.
r for a student to be hit with a despicable comment in the hallway and then look up to see a teacher who witnessed the whole thing turn away because she not-so-secretly agrees? Get a fucking clue, people!
Pamela, this is exactly the kind of situation I lived through all the time in highschool. And it is the kind of situation Mr Bonsignore's video protests against, by mocking the people who do these things. Your advice -- 'why don't you get a clue' -- I return to you.
I think your brief to him is a perfect (and sad) case of friendly fire. I still keep my hope that at some point you'll see that you did the wrong thing -- just like the teacher who turns away when she sees an LGBT being bullied. Except that in your case you didn't turn away because you agreed with the bully, but because you didn't understand.
Ya know what the kids said? That they didn't believe he'd actually ever been bullied or lived through what they lived through, that he was making light of the matter at their expense.
And how about all the people here -- most of which (myself included) also also been bullied, and who GET MR BONSIGNORE'S MESSAGE?
The people in Facebook that you mention also need to get a clue.
You remind me of those people who wrote to Dan to say that his campaign was bad "because it gives the kids the impression that they should do nothing about current bullying, just 'live through it' in the hopes that it will get better later, thereby letting the bullies get away with doing what they're doing".
Just imagine if someone wrote angry letters to Dan, and all contributors, asking them to take down their videos because they thought they were actually helping bullies?
People who miss the point always think they didn't. It apparently always takes a while for them to realize that they DID miss the point. I hope you will, too, Pamela, at some point. As I said in the other message, your heart is in the right place, it's your gun that was aimed wrong.
85
@ 76 - I grew up in the 70's, and I lived exactly through that. And I'm telling you that you are totally wrong.
You're the utterly condescending one. Your "kids" have a brain. Teach them something other than being a victim, it'll be much more useful to them NOW and in the long run.
You're the utterly condescending one. Your "kids" have a brain. Teach them something other than being a victim, it'll be much more useful to them NOW and in the long run.
86
Pam is clearly trying to help. BUT she's also over sensitive and more than a bit condescending in the way she goes about things. I agree that she seems to be mingling her own pain with that of the children she says she mentors. I've always thought people who try to help in this way have good hearts but they need to step back a bit. It's nice to come to someone's defense, but make sure you're defending the right thing first. Despite the horror of the suicides most children are stronger than you give them credit for. You seem to err on the side of the children being too fragile to understand. If anything, the majority of people who have come forward on video and on the SLOG seem to come from a place of strength and awareness rather than fragility. As a former middle schooler who was bullied beyond belief I can tell you that getting up every morning knowing the hostility you are going to face takes strength & courage. Pam needs to give these children credit for their bravery and not just pity for their plight.
87
Sigh.
Pam, I know from *personal* experience the pain of being bullied for my perceived sexuality (as well as for being bookish and odd) growing up. You wanna play Victim Olympics? Ok, let's play.
How about the neighborhood kids pretending to like you to trick you into playing a game called Smear the Queer?
How about getting beaten up, and I do not exaggerate, Every. Single. Day. of 6th grade?
How about being backed into a corner of the hall of your jr high by a group of boys and in addition to being punched and kicked have all of them grope under your shirt and down your pants?
How about having your first girlfriend be forced by her family to move out of your shared locker and never speak to you again after her brother caught you kissing at prom?
Oh, and lets not forget the screaming family fight over your objection to the use of the word faggot in which you end up having to apologize for "upsetting your grandfather".
So, thanks for the offer Pamela, but I already *have* a "fucking clue".
And you know what? I'm sure your heart *is* in the right place, but I also think that you do the kids in your circle of influence a disservice by assuming they are not bright enough to get the message of this video.
Pam, I know from *personal* experience the pain of being bullied for my perceived sexuality (as well as for being bookish and odd) growing up. You wanna play Victim Olympics? Ok, let's play.
How about the neighborhood kids pretending to like you to trick you into playing a game called Smear the Queer?
How about getting beaten up, and I do not exaggerate, Every. Single. Day. of 6th grade?
How about being backed into a corner of the hall of your jr high by a group of boys and in addition to being punched and kicked have all of them grope under your shirt and down your pants?
How about having your first girlfriend be forced by her family to move out of your shared locker and never speak to you again after her brother caught you kissing at prom?
Oh, and lets not forget the screaming family fight over your objection to the use of the word faggot in which you end up having to apologize for "upsetting your grandfather".
So, thanks for the offer Pamela, but I already *have* a "fucking clue".
And you know what? I'm sure your heart *is* in the right place, but I also think that you do the kids in your circle of influence a disservice by assuming they are not bright enough to get the message of this video.
88
@ 76 - And by the way, if your "kids" were SO affected by this video, maybe it's because YOU haven't been teaching them anything useful so far, like survival skills. Just pitying them ain't enough, take it from a bunch of people whose experiencing of bulllying isn't by proxy, like yours.
90
One clarification: I DID NOT REMOVE THE VIDEO -- nor did I ask YouTube to take it down. The author removed it of his own free will. I requested that he do so because it was not clearly recognizable as satire and felt like he was trying to pull a fast one. (Hence the "Hoax" comment.)
Mr. Bonsignore chose to honor my request rather than tell me to go to hell which was absolutely his right to do. I exercised my free speech and he certainly was free to do the same. I would never have asked anyone else to block the video. I like the 1st amendment too much to do that.
So the trouble here is, I offered my opinion and he, for whatever reason, agreed with me enough to pull his own video. No arms were twisted, no threats were made. I had every right to ask and he had every right to ignore me. He also had every right to re-consider what he'd done.
I hardly call that censorship.
Mr. Bonsignore chose to honor my request rather than tell me to go to hell which was absolutely his right to do. I exercised my free speech and he certainly was free to do the same. I would never have asked anyone else to block the video. I like the 1st amendment too much to do that.
So the trouble here is, I offered my opinion and he, for whatever reason, agreed with me enough to pull his own video. No arms were twisted, no threats were made. I had every right to ask and he had every right to ignore me. He also had every right to re-consider what he'd done.
I hardly call that censorship.
91
The video is back up at #75's link. I thought that one and #45's link were both good satire and I'm glad they're both available. But I can also see Pamela's point and perhaps it's best that these type of videos stay separate from the It Gets Better Project. I think most of the teens I know would get the satire, but these are teens who, for the most part, live in supportive home and community environments (and who occasionally watch Colbert!) I'm glad Pamela is there for the teens in her school who are unfortunate to live in such a hostile environment. Hopefully we can all move toward a world that won't need an It Gets Better Project.
92
Stirring the pot today. See how this one rolls off your tongue. Is it a keeper? We need a legally binding Slog poll! NSFW
http://thestir.cafemom.com/big_kid/11062…
Duh, I posted this to the wrong thread. I wondered where it went.
http://thestir.cafemom.com/big_kid/11062…
Duh, I posted this to the wrong thread. I wondered where it went.
93
Jesus Christ, SLOGGERS, lay off the personal attacks at Pamela (like Ricardo @ 88). She's a fellow SLOG reader and an obvious supporter of LGBT rights. You're pretty fucking ignorant if you honestly think it was her, and her alone, that got the video banned. It's apparent there were many others that complained about it too. It's also pretty fucking apparent her heart was in the right place. Sometimes these things happen.
And, for the record, I found the video pretty fucking hilarious, but this piling-on bullshit of a fellow supporter of LGBT rights needs to stop. You've made your point. Now be done with it.
And, for the record, I found the video pretty fucking hilarious, but this piling-on bullshit of a fellow supporter of LGBT rights needs to stop. You've made your point. Now be done with it.
94
Dear Pamela,
You raise the bar on sour humorlessness.
Regards,
Everyone with a Sense of Humor
PS We're not accusing you of censorship, violation of freedom of speech, etc., so quit hiding behind that straw man.
You raise the bar on sour humorlessness.
Regards,
Everyone with a Sense of Humor
PS We're not accusing you of censorship, violation of freedom of speech, etc., so quit hiding behind that straw man.
95
Pamela, he did not take it down at your request, or voluntarily take it down at all. You do not have such persuasive qualities, and Gregory has held his own against far greater minds of ill-humor and self-righteousness than you.
96
I don't say you have removed the video yourself, Pamela, just as the guys who bully also don't kill the gay kids -- no, the gay kids kill themselves, and Mr Bonsignore removed the video himself, out of his own will. He could have chosen not to, he could have chosen to send you to hell, as you said -- just like the bullied gay kids who committed suicide: they could have chosen to send the bullies to hell and stay alive, but they didn't, out of their own free will.
My point is simply: you aimed your gun in the wrong direction. You tried to attack something that was actually on your side, something that was supporting your message, something that supported the kind of world where you would like to live. But you didn't understand it, you aimed your gun in the wrong direction, and you attempted friendly fire.
I'm not assuming Mr Bonsignore is so sensitive that only one e-mail hurt him and made him take down the video. He may have gotten e-mails from other bullies telling him he was a baddie (or acting like a baddie, in case we don't "presume to know what he was thinking"); he may have thought they were the beginning of an avalanche, and decided to stop there. Or maybe someone's argument about we all (and especially our children) being so damn stupid that we'd all misunderstand his video did seem reasonable to him. Who knows? Maybe you are right, and Americans ARE that stupid.
And you did miss the chance of explaining to your kids the meaning of this video. What was behind it, the layers of humor, the implicit anti-bully accusation, the ideas, etc. It could have been material for one class, or even just half an hour, of discussions about bullying, where it comes from, and where it leads to. I'm sure this would have helped the kids your work with and who you care so much about -- and believe me, I thank you for caring about them. Nobody cared about me when I was in highschool, and I went through things that, to put it mildly, were worse than the ones you mentioned.
Instead, you decided to write him an e-mail. OK. But the point remains: you missed an opportunity to do something right, and preferred to do something wrong instead. With the best intentions, but wrong nonetheless. (You could still use the video -- in the link that #75 above provides -- to do the discussion I mention. I believe your kids would benefit from it. But of course this is up to you, and I can't force you to do anything you don't agree with.)
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My point is simply: you aimed your gun in the wrong direction. You tried to attack something that was actually on your side, something that was supporting your message, something that supported the kind of world where you would like to live. But you didn't understand it, you aimed your gun in the wrong direction, and you attempted friendly fire.
I'm not assuming Mr Bonsignore is so sensitive that only one e-mail hurt him and made him take down the video. He may have gotten e-mails from other bullies telling him he was a baddie (or acting like a baddie, in case we don't "presume to know what he was thinking"); he may have thought they were the beginning of an avalanche, and decided to stop there. Or maybe someone's argument about we all (and especially our children) being so damn stupid that we'd all misunderstand his video did seem reasonable to him. Who knows? Maybe you are right, and Americans ARE that stupid.
And you did miss the chance of explaining to your kids the meaning of this video. What was behind it, the layers of humor, the implicit anti-bully accusation, the ideas, etc. It could have been material for one class, or even just half an hour, of discussions about bullying, where it comes from, and where it leads to. I'm sure this would have helped the kids your work with and who you care so much about -- and believe me, I thank you for caring about them. Nobody cared about me when I was in highschool, and I went through things that, to put it mildly, were worse than the ones you mentioned.
Instead, you decided to write him an e-mail. OK. But the point remains: you missed an opportunity to do something right, and preferred to do something wrong instead. With the best intentions, but wrong nonetheless. (You could still use the video -- in the link that #75 above provides -- to do the discussion I mention. I believe your kids would benefit from it. But of course this is up to you, and I can't force you to do anything you don't agree with.)
97
Violation of terms message from YouTube means they took it down, not the author. Your letter fell on hot deaf gay ears.
98
@ 93 - I never accused her of censorship, I accused her of condescension.
If you haven't been bullied yourself and you tell a bunch of people who have to "get a clue" about the issue, that's condescension, and I have every right to tell her so. And wasn't that a personal attack on her part - to all the sloggers who were bullied?
And if you think the "kids" you mentor are too dumb to get satire, that's condescension, and I have every right to tell her so, coz I used to be a bullied kid.
As I said @ 66, satire was precisely what helped me survive my pre-teen and teenage years. So I'd say she missed a whole fucking lot of teaching opportunities already. And why did she miss them? Because of her fucking condescension. And I have every right to tell her so.
She wants to help? She's the one who needs to get a fucking clue. Does that hurt her feelings? Well, as somebody more famous than me said recently, fuck her feelings.
If you haven't been bullied yourself and you tell a bunch of people who have to "get a clue" about the issue, that's condescension, and I have every right to tell her so. And wasn't that a personal attack on her part - to all the sloggers who were bullied?
And if you think the "kids" you mentor are too dumb to get satire, that's condescension, and I have every right to tell her so, coz I used to be a bullied kid.
As I said @ 66, satire was precisely what helped me survive my pre-teen and teenage years. So I'd say she missed a whole fucking lot of teaching opportunities already. And why did she miss them? Because of her fucking condescension. And I have every right to tell her so.
She wants to help? She's the one who needs to get a fucking clue. Does that hurt her feelings? Well, as somebody more famous than me said recently, fuck her feelings.
99
Hilarious! This neatly encapsulates my fantasy of what would happen to the coddled, entitled jocks that dominated my high school. Funny thing, for most of them, their lives turned out pretty close to this. Nothing sadder than peaking in high school.
100
Meh. Video wasn't amusing. Not sure why someone would think it mocks gay kids though. If it's mocking anything (and it is) it's the assholes, ya know?
Whatever.
Whatever.
101
Even though I agree with you in principle, Ricardo, I'm beginning to have second thoughts. Indeed, Pamela was condescending and did a wrong thing; but as Frau Blucher points out, she is on the side of the angels; and even if she did miss many a teaching opportunity, she may not have missed others. I was also heavily bullied as a kid, with consequences that I feel even today; and one thing I feel in retrospect is that there was never anybody who'd take my side, among all the teachers. If Pamela does that, then she does have my respect -- despite her condenscendence.
There still are so many people who actually secretely agree with the bullies. Maybe we should indeed give each other more support rather than less.
There still are so many people who actually secretely agree with the bullies. Maybe we should indeed give each other more support rather than less.
102
OK, I've read all these comments all day without having seen the video, since it was pulled by the time I got here. I've just watched it, and I have to say, while I could previously understand what Pamela may have been on about (having not seen the video), I now really don't get how this video could be upsetting. It is CLEARLY in support of LGBT youth. It was astoundingly apparent to me and I can't imagine how it couldn't be the same to anyone (whether you believe the confessional was staged or real, for that matter).
He refers to his bullying as bigotry (can't say I've ever heard any bigot refer to his own bigotry as bigotry). He says something about that "bullshit" other bullies may be pulling in high school. He plays on all the stereotypes about high school bullies...that they think they're big shit, but get into the real world and it hits them hard that they are suddenly tiny fish in vast oceans of people who don't give a shit about them.
And really, it screams with poetic justice, and who is NOT satisfied by poetic justice? What bullied child wouldn't get at least a smidgeon of schadenfreude at the idea that these assholes who tried to make you feel they were so much better than you went into the world to feel so much less than others?
I'm not sure how you think this misses the mark of satire, Pamela. I found it to be perfectly done and the message was quite clear. I appreciate that you're watch-dogging for things that hurt your students' feelings. But really, even under the incredibly trying, painful circumstances you've described, if that video made them upset, they're *really* going to need to gain some self-confidence and self-love by the time they hit the real world or they'll be demolished. Support them, absoLUTELY. But don't coddle...they need to be able to take care of themselves when you're not around to protect them anymore.
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He refers to his bullying as bigotry (can't say I've ever heard any bigot refer to his own bigotry as bigotry). He says something about that "bullshit" other bullies may be pulling in high school. He plays on all the stereotypes about high school bullies...that they think they're big shit, but get into the real world and it hits them hard that they are suddenly tiny fish in vast oceans of people who don't give a shit about them.
And really, it screams with poetic justice, and who is NOT satisfied by poetic justice? What bullied child wouldn't get at least a smidgeon of schadenfreude at the idea that these assholes who tried to make you feel they were so much better than you went into the world to feel so much less than others?
I'm not sure how you think this misses the mark of satire, Pamela. I found it to be perfectly done and the message was quite clear. I appreciate that you're watch-dogging for things that hurt your students' feelings. But really, even under the incredibly trying, painful circumstances you've described, if that video made them upset, they're *really* going to need to gain some self-confidence and self-love by the time they hit the real world or they'll be demolished. Support them, absoLUTELY. But don't coddle...they need to be able to take care of themselves when you're not around to protect them anymore.
103
@anklyosaur - Please be assured that no teachable moments are being missed: The students and I are talking about this like crazy. It's an interesting conversation covering satire (what works, what doesn't), personal tastes in humor and what subjects may be still too taboo to joke about; how the video could have made it's point in a funnier, clearer way; what it means when allies disagree; how to disagree without be disagreeable (and without alienating those who disagree with you); flaming and trolls; First amendment rights & responsibilities; just because you can say it, should you?; how can bullying be prevented and ways to reach current bullies to help them understand the harm they are doing -- recent NPR reports have been helpful here. We've been watching the "It Gets Better" series and using materials from GLSEN, the Trevor Project & the Make It Better websites. The students have been working on a group performance piece that addresses the various forms & targets of bullies based on their personal stories. It's those stories and experiences I have been sharing here. Everything I know, they have taught me.
One young woman who came to late to the conversation had seen the "It Gets Worse" video on Facebook last night and was so excited about it....until she found out it was a joke. She was embarrassed to have been taken in and hurt by her crushed hopefulness. I tried to explain that several people here thought she should have appreciated the sophistication of the satire but she didn't get it. She's just pissed. Can't say I blame her. (I cheered her up with the shrew, prude and sour humorlessness comments, though. We did have a good laugh about that. And probably the BEST lesson we got out of this whole flame war here is that we're not obligated to give a shit about what other people think of us. It's been great!)
I have not told the students where all of this exchange has taken place -- they would be devastated by some of the comments here and I don't dare subject them to several sloggers who probably can't be trusted to be civil.
But I simply must share one tongue-in-cheek comment by a younger teen who asks your "pardon" for his ignorance and sensitivity: "Maybe one day when we grow up we'll understand. Until then, SUCK IT!"
LOL!!!. Guess you had to be there....
Bless you all and thanks for a week's worth of teaching material!
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One young woman who came to late to the conversation had seen the "It Gets Worse" video on Facebook last night and was so excited about it....until she found out it was a joke. She was embarrassed to have been taken in and hurt by her crushed hopefulness. I tried to explain that several people here thought she should have appreciated the sophistication of the satire but she didn't get it. She's just pissed. Can't say I blame her. (I cheered her up with the shrew, prude and sour humorlessness comments, though. We did have a good laugh about that. And probably the BEST lesson we got out of this whole flame war here is that we're not obligated to give a shit about what other people think of us. It's been great!)
I have not told the students where all of this exchange has taken place -- they would be devastated by some of the comments here and I don't dare subject them to several sloggers who probably can't be trusted to be civil.
But I simply must share one tongue-in-cheek comment by a younger teen who asks your "pardon" for his ignorance and sensitivity: "Maybe one day when we grow up we'll understand. Until then, SUCK IT!"
LOL!!!. Guess you had to be there....
Bless you all and thanks for a week's worth of teaching material!
104
@ 101 - Well I'm sorry if I offended you, coz I admire everything you say. I just don't have your patience and diplomacy. And I do firmly believe, as I said in my first post, that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
The "kids" she mentors need more than just good intentions. That's a fact. They need survival skills.
Now even if you think that this guy in the video really is a bigot, I don't believe any child above 10, or even earlier, could miss the global message: his life's a mess. Being a bigot is no good.
It's condescending to the "kids" to think that they wouldn't get it if you only told them: listen until the end.
Her "kids" are hurt when they hear the word "faggot"? Well the first thing she should have taught them, if she really wanted to help them, is this: "You're gonna hear that word a million times before you die of old age, but each time you hear it, remember that the person who says this is a poor, pathetically insecure idiot who needs to take his/her frustrations about his/her life on others in order not to feel so pathetic (or who needs to copy those who do for fear of not being accepted). YOU are better than that." It might be a tad exagerated, but it's generally true, and it does help. It's an important first step.
If she didn't tell them that, or a gentler, more PC version of that, then she's not doing much to help. Protecting them from all that's bad in this world isn't very useful in the long run. After all, you and I made it through because we learned to face our situation and deal with it, since there was no one to help us, right? I got the bullies off my back at my school by bitching them into fearing me more than I had ever feared them. I reclaimed the word faggot for my benefit. I learned to say: "Yeah, I'm a faggot, so what? At least I have a brain" and "Yeah, I'm a faggot, so what are you gonna prove if you beat me up?" They never knew what to answer. And the laughter of their other, non-bullying classmates got them to shut up and leave me alone.
It's true that some kids are weaker, and they need help to understand that it will get better, that they are better than the bullies. That's what the IGBP is about, and kudos to Dan for that.
But being condescending - as this woman is - to people who did experience bullying because we don't agree with her is not acceptable, no matter whose side she thinks she's on.
She's basically blaming us for the fact that her "kids" are not able to understand this sort of humor and how it can help them, when the reality is that she's the one who should have taught them about it already.
That is, if she really wanted to help. As things stand, I think she only wants to feel good about "how she helps those kids". Yeah right.
She's like mother Teresa: so kind of her to "take care" of all those sick people. But we now know that all she did was to baptize them, give them painkillers (if that), bathe them and let them die. The money went to the vatican. But yeah, she's a saint.
I personally consider her approach and her comments to be utterly offensive, and I'm letting her know. Because in spite of her good intentions, I don't think she has a clue about how to really help bullied kids. So in the long run, I'm convinced she's hurting them.
And is that what we want? Must we seriously applaud good intentions even if they bring negative results? I don't think so.
'nuff said.
Tot spraak.
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The "kids" she mentors need more than just good intentions. That's a fact. They need survival skills.
Now even if you think that this guy in the video really is a bigot, I don't believe any child above 10, or even earlier, could miss the global message: his life's a mess. Being a bigot is no good.
It's condescending to the "kids" to think that they wouldn't get it if you only told them: listen until the end.
Her "kids" are hurt when they hear the word "faggot"? Well the first thing she should have taught them, if she really wanted to help them, is this: "You're gonna hear that word a million times before you die of old age, but each time you hear it, remember that the person who says this is a poor, pathetically insecure idiot who needs to take his/her frustrations about his/her life on others in order not to feel so pathetic (or who needs to copy those who do for fear of not being accepted). YOU are better than that." It might be a tad exagerated, but it's generally true, and it does help. It's an important first step.
If she didn't tell them that, or a gentler, more PC version of that, then she's not doing much to help. Protecting them from all that's bad in this world isn't very useful in the long run. After all, you and I made it through because we learned to face our situation and deal with it, since there was no one to help us, right? I got the bullies off my back at my school by bitching them into fearing me more than I had ever feared them. I reclaimed the word faggot for my benefit. I learned to say: "Yeah, I'm a faggot, so what? At least I have a brain" and "Yeah, I'm a faggot, so what are you gonna prove if you beat me up?" They never knew what to answer. And the laughter of their other, non-bullying classmates got them to shut up and leave me alone.
It's true that some kids are weaker, and they need help to understand that it will get better, that they are better than the bullies. That's what the IGBP is about, and kudos to Dan for that.
But being condescending - as this woman is - to people who did experience bullying because we don't agree with her is not acceptable, no matter whose side she thinks she's on.
She's basically blaming us for the fact that her "kids" are not able to understand this sort of humor and how it can help them, when the reality is that she's the one who should have taught them about it already.
That is, if she really wanted to help. As things stand, I think she only wants to feel good about "how she helps those kids". Yeah right.
She's like mother Teresa: so kind of her to "take care" of all those sick people. But we now know that all she did was to baptize them, give them painkillers (if that), bathe them and let them die. The money went to the vatican. But yeah, she's a saint.
I personally consider her approach and her comments to be utterly offensive, and I'm letting her know. Because in spite of her good intentions, I don't think she has a clue about how to really help bullied kids. So in the long run, I'm convinced she's hurting them.
And is that what we want? Must we seriously applaud good intentions even if they bring negative results? I don't think so.
'nuff said.
Tot spraak.
105
@101 - Now you're getting the point. Regardless that Pamela took the message in the wrong text, it's blatantly apparent that she supports LGBT kids and equality. SHE CARES FOR THEM. All the bullshit about her apparent "lack of humor" only makes an obvious ally defensive, because, from her point of view (and don't we all have one), she simply felt it sent the wrong message. NO FUCKING HARM DONE. PERIOD!
And Ricardo @98 - pot meet kettle. You're being as fucking condescending as they come, to Pamela (with your in-her-face comments about her ability to teach children about respect and equality). My, aren't you the one to show her just how the bear shits in the woods (snark). It's apparent that Pamela does support her students and tries to teach them the importance of equality. So nice of you to turn those that support our LGBT youth and their rights against us by blowing them the hell out of the water with that giant chip on your shoulder. Yeah. That's sure to win us supporters. Good show.
And Ricardo @98 - pot meet kettle. You're being as fucking condescending as they come, to Pamela (with your in-her-face comments about her ability to teach children about respect and equality). My, aren't you the one to show her just how the bear shits in the woods (snark). It's apparent that Pamela does support her students and tries to teach them the importance of equality. So nice of you to turn those that support our LGBT youth and their rights against us by blowing them the hell out of the water with that giant chip on your shoulder. Yeah. That's sure to win us supporters. Good show.
106
I'm with Pam. Her heart was in the right place and she makes several very good points if you take the time to scroll down and read them. Foremost among them is that the kids who are the primary target of this video don't have the sophisticated sense of humor to understand it. Plus, many of them are essentially trauma victims, so you can see how they'd be a little humorless for the next several years. That goes for Pam as well -- when you live in a war zone, you get a pass for being 'humorless' about certain things. Fuck off, meanies. You're piling on her and ignoring her logical responses like, I dunno, she's the unpopular gay kid in your high school and you're a bunch of asshole jocks....
107
Dang! I forgot the funniest point... The students said the "satire" actually would have worked if the guy behaved stereotypically gay with affections that he was "clueless" about. They see all of the news stories about homophobic preachers getting caught with their pants down and our "code" words to each other when we see something like that is "he doth protest too much!" (Usually followed by gales of laughter.)
They know a lot of kids their age are struggling with their sexuality and that they are getting hardcore anti-gay messages from their parents, politicians and churches. They suspect some of the bullying is coming from sexually-conflicted teens trying to exercise (exorcise?) their "manhood". THAT's who they wanted to see in the video. In their humble opinions, it wasn't obvious enough satire and they were bothered so many people thought it was sincere. Of course, these are merely the musings of unsophisticated teens so what the hell do they know, eh?
They know a lot of kids their age are struggling with their sexuality and that they are getting hardcore anti-gay messages from their parents, politicians and churches. They suspect some of the bullying is coming from sexually-conflicted teens trying to exercise (exorcise?) their "manhood". THAT's who they wanted to see in the video. In their humble opinions, it wasn't obvious enough satire and they were bothered so many people thought it was sincere. Of course, these are merely the musings of unsophisticated teens so what the hell do they know, eh?
108
@ 105 - I just have no patience for self-anointed saints, that's all.
And arrogance and condescencion, however horrible they are, can be extremely powerful argumentative tools when you use them knowingly. The point is precisely to make her see how offensive she is.
And for the rest, as I said at 104: "Must we seriously applaud good intentions even if they bring negative results? I don't think so." I see nothing productive in that. It's just PC crap.
And arrogance and condescencion, however horrible they are, can be extremely powerful argumentative tools when you use them knowingly. The point is precisely to make her see how offensive she is.
And for the rest, as I said at 104: "Must we seriously applaud good intentions even if they bring negative results? I don't think so." I see nothing productive in that. It's just PC crap.
109
@108 - What "negative results" are we discussing here? The fact that a video what removed? Big fucking boo-hoo. Pam obviously works with kids daily. Do you? Your personal experience with this situation doesn't make you the resident expert. She posted her personal feeling on the matter, but guess what? No fucking harm was done for doing so. She didn't "appoint" herself as a saint. She simply gave reasons why she felt it was inappropriate, from her hands-on experience with kids. That's it. Certainly not worthy of the personal attacks we've witnessed, including yours.
There were no "negative results," other than the pissy fit you and many others are throwing, simply because a video was taken down from Youtube. That's it in a nut-shell.
You simply could have stated you felt it wrong that the video was taken down, but you had to go and make it personal with Pam (and in no uncertain terms, tell her she's a shitty teacher). Next time, feel free to weigh in on a topic, but don't destroy the bridges we LGBT people are trying to build with straight allies. Your personal negotiation skills leave much to be desired.
There were no "negative results," other than the pissy fit you and many others are throwing, simply because a video was taken down from Youtube. That's it in a nut-shell.
You simply could have stated you felt it wrong that the video was taken down, but you had to go and make it personal with Pam (and in no uncertain terms, tell her she's a shitty teacher). Next time, feel free to weigh in on a topic, but don't destroy the bridges we LGBT people are trying to build with straight allies. Your personal negotiation skills leave much to be desired.
110
It sounds like Pamela is (with her throbbing heart of gold) trying to protect her children from reality, not just bullying. Wonder what other videos she's tried to have removed in the past.
111
@ You haven't read my posts very attentively. Her condescending attitude is what I criticized (and yes, I do consider that she started the attacks at "get a clue").
Once a video is on the Internet, it's there forever, so I never blamed her for having it taken down.
The "negative results" I'm talking about is the fact that, as many others have pointed out, she's trying to protect the kids instead of trying to give them useful skills to survive their situation. It's not productive in the short nor the long term.
And seeing that you didn't really even try to understand what I was saying and you blindly interpreted it as arguments against her in what you felt was the issue here, censorship, I'd say the one with the chip on the shoulder is definitely not me.
My negotiation skills may be poor (did I ever say I had any?), but your capacity for text analysis is nil. To paraphrase a well known proverb, you have to learn to read before you write.
Once a video is on the Internet, it's there forever, so I never blamed her for having it taken down.
The "negative results" I'm talking about is the fact that, as many others have pointed out, she's trying to protect the kids instead of trying to give them useful skills to survive their situation. It's not productive in the short nor the long term.
And seeing that you didn't really even try to understand what I was saying and you blindly interpreted it as arguments against her in what you felt was the issue here, censorship, I'd say the one with the chip on the shoulder is definitely not me.
My negotiation skills may be poor (did I ever say I had any?), but your capacity for text analysis is nil. To paraphrase a well known proverb, you have to learn to read before you write.
113
Does anyone else notice the theme building here?
YOU'RE NOT LISTENING TO ME.
Just about everyone is saying it.
Talk about a teachable moment.....
YOU'RE NOT LISTENING TO ME.
Just about everyone is saying it.
Talk about a teachable moment.....
114
@102 Yay! Couldn't have said it better.
@75 Thanks for the link of the reposted video!
I loved the inversion of the theme, to tell the same story from the other side. The kids who bully other kids in high school so often grow up to be losers. It's definitely a story worth telling, and the kids who are being bullied right now, need to hear it!
I'm still curious about why it got pulled from Youtube in the first place. The script language is pretty tame, there's no background music. The only thing in the frame that might have got the attention of copyright police is that beer box. Oh, well. Unless the filmmaker tells us, I guess we'll never know.
@75 Thanks for the link of the reposted video!
I loved the inversion of the theme, to tell the same story from the other side. The kids who bully other kids in high school so often grow up to be losers. It's definitely a story worth telling, and the kids who are being bullied right now, need to hear it!
I'm still curious about why it got pulled from Youtube in the first place. The script language is pretty tame, there's no background music. The only thing in the frame that might have got the attention of copyright police is that beer box. Oh, well. Unless the filmmaker tells us, I guess we'll never know.
115
After having read most of the comments above (I confess, I skipped a few in the middle) some points that stand out to me are:
- some people think the video was sincere when they first see it
- after realizing that it is not, some of these feel "duped"
- many of these people transfer their frustration at being duped into feelings of hurt from the content of the video
- everyone seems to think that they, themselves, are the intended audience for this video
- then there is a big argument about whether everyone else is being condescending.
However, just as the IGBP is aimed at LGBT youth, I saw this video as being aimed at the total fucking asshole youth.
Pamela: Rather than making a banner of the feelings of frustration and hurt in LGBT youth who mistake the intent of this video, encourage them to realize that they are in on the joke against the bullies. It seems to me that Mr. Bonsignore is not trying to dupe LGBTs into thinking some asshole finally saw the light, not trying to give LGBTs false hope that every asshole eventually gets his comeuppance, but rather trying to dupe the bullies into realizing that "bigotry isn't fashionable anymore."
- some people think the video was sincere when they first see it
- after realizing that it is not, some of these feel "duped"
- many of these people transfer their frustration at being duped into feelings of hurt from the content of the video
- everyone seems to think that they, themselves, are the intended audience for this video
- then there is a big argument about whether everyone else is being condescending.
However, just as the IGBP is aimed at LGBT youth, I saw this video as being aimed at the total fucking asshole youth.
Pamela: Rather than making a banner of the feelings of frustration and hurt in LGBT youth who mistake the intent of this video, encourage them to realize that they are in on the joke against the bullies. It seems to me that Mr. Bonsignore is not trying to dupe LGBTs into thinking some asshole finally saw the light, not trying to give LGBTs false hope that every asshole eventually gets his comeuppance, but rather trying to dupe the bullies into realizing that "bigotry isn't fashionable anymore."
116
wow. talk about much ado about nothing.
and by the end of it all, i'm doubting everything PamelaGRW is saying. she continues to argue her point, but does so through the LGBT children in hopes that the idiocy of such arguments will be tolerated because it comes from children.
if any child came to me upset about the video, i would have explained what satire was and what the person was trying to say through the satire. PGRW didn't get it so couldn't explain it. now, she's defending herself on slog all day when a "oops, i missed it, my bad." would have sufficed.
on the side of angels? please.
and by the end of it all, i'm doubting everything PamelaGRW is saying. she continues to argue her point, but does so through the LGBT children in hopes that the idiocy of such arguments will be tolerated because it comes from children.
if any child came to me upset about the video, i would have explained what satire was and what the person was trying to say through the satire. PGRW didn't get it so couldn't explain it. now, she's defending herself on slog all day when a "oops, i missed it, my bad." would have sufficed.
on the side of angels? please.
117
Re 75: Then they will probably like the link I posted in 45. (My favorite part is his reaction to what the psychiatrist says, like he's trying not to cry because it's true.)
118
@103: Thanks for writing that. I love that kind of dialogue and it's so great to see someone making a difference in that way.
@114: My guess is it got taken down because it used the word "faggot", which probably technically violates Big Brother's, I mean Google's, terms of service.
Though I'm a big fan of Dan's "It Gets Better" project, I have to say that this satirical video was stupid and insulting in general. It's essentially taking a bunch of "loser" stereotypes and saying that homophobic and abusive people will end up in those stereotypes.
First of all, the stereotypes aren't fair: there are good people who are stuck in dead-end manager jobs, who like pizza, beer, and poker, who played sports in high school and college, or who have social difficulties and trouble making friends.
Second, this just seems like insulting people for being poor, like "Haha, look at that stupid jock who ended up without a good job! Aren't we so much better than him?" It smacks of elitism. Let's attack bullies by saying that bullying is wrong, not saying they'll end up in some lesser class of people who aren't worth as much.
Finally, as Pam points out, it's just not true. The sad fact is that the bullies and homophobes of high school often become the business and civic leaders of adulthood. Let's not pretend that the world is fair and just and that mean people always get what they deserve.
@114: My guess is it got taken down because it used the word "faggot", which probably technically violates Big Brother's, I mean Google's, terms of service.
Though I'm a big fan of Dan's "It Gets Better" project, I have to say that this satirical video was stupid and insulting in general. It's essentially taking a bunch of "loser" stereotypes and saying that homophobic and abusive people will end up in those stereotypes.
First of all, the stereotypes aren't fair: there are good people who are stuck in dead-end manager jobs, who like pizza, beer, and poker, who played sports in high school and college, or who have social difficulties and trouble making friends.
Second, this just seems like insulting people for being poor, like "Haha, look at that stupid jock who ended up without a good job! Aren't we so much better than him?" It smacks of elitism. Let's attack bullies by saying that bullying is wrong, not saying they'll end up in some lesser class of people who aren't worth as much.
Finally, as Pam points out, it's just not true. The sad fact is that the bullies and homophobes of high school often become the business and civic leaders of adulthood. Let's not pretend that the world is fair and just and that mean people always get what they deserve.
119
If we're not going to pretend the world is fair, why have a "it gets better" project at all? I mean, the truth is (and we all should know this) that it *doesn't* always get better. For one thing, sometimes you wind up dead. Sometimes you end up a loser, broke and unloved. Sometimes you end up in a life you hate. Sometimes you just can't face the fear and never leave the closet. Sometimes... sometimes it doesn't get better.
If we're lying about the core message, what's another little lie? The point isn't to tell the truth (that's too depressing), the point is to give hope. And you don't give hope by telling the truth.
If we're lying about the core message, what's another little lie? The point isn't to tell the truth (that's too depressing), the point is to give hope. And you don't give hope by telling the truth.
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@ 119 - I would say that adult life, with all of its difficulties (and I've had my share), is still way better than being bullied in high school. Why? Because I never felt that helpless and abandoned.
Give them hope, but never lie to them, and don't shield them from reality. Because eventually, those lies will invalidate their hope.
Difficult does not mean worse.
Give them hope, but never lie to them, and don't shield them from reality. Because eventually, those lies will invalidate their hope.
Difficult does not mean worse.
121
Well, here's a final comment. And then I'll let the chips fall where they may.
@Frau Blucher, I get your point: Pamela is trying to do the right thing, so we should support her and disregard her apparent lack of humor. Sure. That's OK, especially since, in this case, as you point out, no harm is done. I do ask you, however: the fact that no harm is done in this case is more or less a coincidence. 'Friendly fire' can be a source of much harm, in that -- just as your defense of Pamela -- it drives away friends and allies who also just wanted to help (Mr Bonsignore). Not in this case; but in general it does. My rule of thumb: be sure you know that what you're firing at is not a friend. I think Pamela failed to notice that, which is a pity. (In fact, up to this point I still haven't seen evidence in her posts that she understands the video had good intentions.)
@Mel (106), I ask you the same question I ask others: do you need a 'sophisticated' sense of humor to understand the video? In what ways could it be misunderstood, and how exactly could they lead to harm?
@107: Pamela, I suspect that your emotional reaction (' these are merely the musings of unsophisticated teens so what the hell do they know') shows you're not really untouched by the 'flame war' as you claimed. If you do feel bad about it, accept my apologies. I do think I'm right; you missed the chance of showing, for instance, to the girl who was "hurt by her crushing hopefulness" how the satire in the video actually expressed exactly what was behind bullying. You could have compared this video -- a critique of bullies -- with true "bullies-who-repented" videos (there are a couple in YouTube) and shown her how both express the same message.
The point is not that these kids aren't sophisticated enough to understand the video. Any video can be misunderstood (I mention again those who wrote to Dan saying his whole 'It Gets Better' project was misconceived and actually enabled bullies to go on doing their evil deeds -- they thought about Dan as you think about Mr Bonsignore). The point is that you are 'sophisticated' enough to understand it; you could have explained it to them; and this understanding would have led to you NOT writing a condescending letter to someone who is also your ally and fights on your side.
A pity that this chance was missed. But OK, life goes on; and you are doing good work, and you are helping kids who need help.
A final thought. You said: 'we're not obligated to give a shit about what other people think of us'. That's true. But don't forget that bullies say the exact same thing. (A question for your study group: when is this claim 'good' -- pro-autonomy -- and when is it bad -- pro-bullying? This may be an interesting discussion.)
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@Frau Blucher, I get your point: Pamela is trying to do the right thing, so we should support her and disregard her apparent lack of humor. Sure. That's OK, especially since, in this case, as you point out, no harm is done. I do ask you, however: the fact that no harm is done in this case is more or less a coincidence. 'Friendly fire' can be a source of much harm, in that -- just as your defense of Pamela -- it drives away friends and allies who also just wanted to help (Mr Bonsignore). Not in this case; but in general it does. My rule of thumb: be sure you know that what you're firing at is not a friend. I think Pamela failed to notice that, which is a pity. (In fact, up to this point I still haven't seen evidence in her posts that she understands the video had good intentions.)
@Mel (106), I ask you the same question I ask others: do you need a 'sophisticated' sense of humor to understand the video? In what ways could it be misunderstood, and how exactly could they lead to harm?
@107: Pamela, I suspect that your emotional reaction (' these are merely the musings of unsophisticated teens so what the hell do they know') shows you're not really untouched by the 'flame war' as you claimed. If you do feel bad about it, accept my apologies. I do think I'm right; you missed the chance of showing, for instance, to the girl who was "hurt by her crushing hopefulness" how the satire in the video actually expressed exactly what was behind bullying. You could have compared this video -- a critique of bullies -- with true "bullies-who-repented" videos (there are a couple in YouTube) and shown her how both express the same message.
The point is not that these kids aren't sophisticated enough to understand the video. Any video can be misunderstood (I mention again those who wrote to Dan saying his whole 'It Gets Better' project was misconceived and actually enabled bullies to go on doing their evil deeds -- they thought about Dan as you think about Mr Bonsignore). The point is that you are 'sophisticated' enough to understand it; you could have explained it to them; and this understanding would have led to you NOT writing a condescending letter to someone who is also your ally and fights on your side.
A pity that this chance was missed. But OK, life goes on; and you are doing good work, and you are helping kids who need help.
A final thought. You said: 'we're not obligated to give a shit about what other people think of us'. That's true. But don't forget that bullies say the exact same thing. (A question for your study group: when is this claim 'good' -- pro-autonomy -- and when is it bad -- pro-bullying? This may be an interesting discussion.)
122
Indeed, that's the point, Pamela. To the boy who said, "maybe when I grow up I'll understand it"... YOU could have explained it to him. And you didn't. And that IS a pity.
123
@BlackRose, thank you for at least trying to show what could be wrong with the video.
I think the point that got to me in the video was that it is such an obvious satire. It's meant to make people think at what is behind bullying, as in saying : the things that lead people to bully are utterly ridiculous (arrogance, feeling of entitlement, contempt for different people, etc.). By making bad things have bad effects, it hits the point nicely: it shows them as bad.
Note: the girlfriend left him after hearing the 'faggot' comment. That got me giggling right away, and reminded me of exactly the kind of things I used to tell myself to get through my daily tortures in highschool. I immediately felt like saying "thanks" to Mr Bonsignore. As another commenter mentioned above, the video plays with poetic justice, which I enjoyed.
As for the 'video not being true' because in real life many bullies actually do get good jobs and loving girlfriends: you can make the same accusation against Dan's whole project. The "It Gets Better" videos aren't 100% true, because some LGTB people (like some bullies, like some people of every kind) do end up having shitty lives anyway. Some go on to encounter homophobia way after highschool, perhaps throughout their lives.
The truth is probably closer to, It Often But Not Always Gets Better. Should we criticize Dan's videos because of that? Should we say they are "lying"? I think not.
Besides, think how many of these videos did make the point that they were having better lives than their bullies. They are making the same "elitist" point that you criticize in Mr Bonsignore's video. Would you criticize them for that?
I think the point that got to me in the video was that it is such an obvious satire. It's meant to make people think at what is behind bullying, as in saying : the things that lead people to bully are utterly ridiculous (arrogance, feeling of entitlement, contempt for different people, etc.). By making bad things have bad effects, it hits the point nicely: it shows them as bad.
Note: the girlfriend left him after hearing the 'faggot' comment. That got me giggling right away, and reminded me of exactly the kind of things I used to tell myself to get through my daily tortures in highschool. I immediately felt like saying "thanks" to Mr Bonsignore. As another commenter mentioned above, the video plays with poetic justice, which I enjoyed.
As for the 'video not being true' because in real life many bullies actually do get good jobs and loving girlfriends: you can make the same accusation against Dan's whole project. The "It Gets Better" videos aren't 100% true, because some LGTB people (like some bullies, like some people of every kind) do end up having shitty lives anyway. Some go on to encounter homophobia way after highschool, perhaps throughout their lives.
The truth is probably closer to, It Often But Not Always Gets Better. Should we criticize Dan's videos because of that? Should we say they are "lying"? I think not.
Besides, think how many of these videos did make the point that they were having better lives than their bullies. They are making the same "elitist" point that you criticize in Mr Bonsignore's video. Would you criticize them for that?
124
The video is up on other sites besides youtube. Maybe someone could repost it with full accreditation, so that others may see.
125
@ Brooklyn Reader, others have suggested it was the word 'faggot' (which appears at one point) that got it out of YouTube. I'm a bit surprised that this would be enough, but I admit it is the most likely theory thus far.
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Villain42 (@119), you anticipated one of the main points in my response to BlackRose -- I hadn't noticed that you had already mentioned it (i.e. that It Gets Better is also a "lie" in the sense that it doesn't always get better). Sorry about that.
127
Pamela, I can see how much you care about these kids.
But I am having a hard time figuring out why they should feel mocked or insulted by the video. So it wasn't "real;" it still says bigotry is wrong, bullying karma will be punished. The only people being made fun of are bullies. If a gay kid sees it and thinks it's sincere the message is, "the bullies lose in the end." And if a bigot sees it and thinks it's sincere, he takes away the message that bullying isn't so cool after all. If teenagers don't see the satire, so what? How can the message be anything but effective?
A gay kid feels mocked how, exactly, for initially believing this to be serious? Okay, so she has a moment of embarrassment--and that is where you come in as an adult and an educator and say, "Susie, the people being mocked through this video are bigots. This video is satirical, and satire has always been an effective tool to effect change." I teach Jonathan Swift's ironic essay "A Modest Proposal." Every year, some students don't recognize the satire or irony, and think that Swift is seriously suggesting infanticide and cannibalism. When they realize he isn't seriously advocating those "solutions" to the problem he is trying to address by raising public awareness, they may well feel a bit embarrassed, a bit foolish, perhaps even feel that they have been mocked for their lack of ability to sense the satire.
So would you suggest that we stop reading the essay or stop teaching it as an example of brilliant rhetoric?
Of course not; you'd suggest that as an educator, I make sure the students see exactly how the argument works and to analyze it so as to understand Swift's real point.
Try doing the same with your students regarding this video. Give them the tools they need to operate critically in this world. Self-righteous anger is too easy to mock and rarely helps a cause.
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But I am having a hard time figuring out why they should feel mocked or insulted by the video. So it wasn't "real;" it still says bigotry is wrong, bullying karma will be punished. The only people being made fun of are bullies. If a gay kid sees it and thinks it's sincere the message is, "the bullies lose in the end." And if a bigot sees it and thinks it's sincere, he takes away the message that bullying isn't so cool after all. If teenagers don't see the satire, so what? How can the message be anything but effective?
A gay kid feels mocked how, exactly, for initially believing this to be serious? Okay, so she has a moment of embarrassment--and that is where you come in as an adult and an educator and say, "Susie, the people being mocked through this video are bigots. This video is satirical, and satire has always been an effective tool to effect change." I teach Jonathan Swift's ironic essay "A Modest Proposal." Every year, some students don't recognize the satire or irony, and think that Swift is seriously suggesting infanticide and cannibalism. When they realize he isn't seriously advocating those "solutions" to the problem he is trying to address by raising public awareness, they may well feel a bit embarrassed, a bit foolish, perhaps even feel that they have been mocked for their lack of ability to sense the satire.
So would you suggest that we stop reading the essay or stop teaching it as an example of brilliant rhetoric?
Of course not; you'd suggest that as an educator, I make sure the students see exactly how the argument works and to analyze it so as to understand Swift's real point.
Try doing the same with your students regarding this video. Give them the tools they need to operate critically in this world. Self-righteous anger is too easy to mock and rarely helps a cause.
128
To all of the "helpful" people who have lectured me on what I should be teaching my students, have you actually bothered to read any of the entries where I detail 1) the discussion topics we've covered; 2) the resources used; 3) the students' own words about why they did not like the alleged satire; and, 4) their suggestions for how to improve the video so it's not a "punk."
I have tried to share with them the different perspectives presented here and, frankly, they feel condescended to by many of you. One comment: "I guess our feelings and opinions don't count with those people because we don't think the way they think we should."
And, yes, they know what satire is. (I overheard several of them discussing 'A Modest Proposal" during our Leadership Academy last week -- I was impressed.) They are also smart consumers of 21st century media. They thought the video was lame and demeaning. They were especially offended by one of the suggestions here that they should be comforted by a story about a bully growing up to be a loser -- even though the story was fake. One response to that notion: "I stopped believing in fairy tales a long time ago."
They also picked up on the elitism of a service worker in a retail outlet being portrayed as a nobody -- a job quite similar to ones their family members hold. I have to admit, that slight had eluded me until they pointed it out. (One girl immediately went to Mr. Bonsignore's TED profile and checked out his academic & work record. It was difficult for her to understand why being the night manager at the Ladies Foot Locker is a degrading job.)
I've decided, after spending the day with you all and with them, they are smarter, more insightful and far more compassionate than the rest of us. Nobody needs to tell them what to think or how to feel. We're the ones who need a lesson from them.
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I have tried to share with them the different perspectives presented here and, frankly, they feel condescended to by many of you. One comment: "I guess our feelings and opinions don't count with those people because we don't think the way they think we should."
And, yes, they know what satire is. (I overheard several of them discussing 'A Modest Proposal" during our Leadership Academy last week -- I was impressed.) They are also smart consumers of 21st century media. They thought the video was lame and demeaning. They were especially offended by one of the suggestions here that they should be comforted by a story about a bully growing up to be a loser -- even though the story was fake. One response to that notion: "I stopped believing in fairy tales a long time ago."
They also picked up on the elitism of a service worker in a retail outlet being portrayed as a nobody -- a job quite similar to ones their family members hold. I have to admit, that slight had eluded me until they pointed it out. (One girl immediately went to Mr. Bonsignore's TED profile and checked out his academic & work record. It was difficult for her to understand why being the night manager at the Ladies Foot Locker is a degrading job.)
I've decided, after spending the day with you all and with them, they are smarter, more insightful and far more compassionate than the rest of us. Nobody needs to tell them what to think or how to feel. We're the ones who need a lesson from them.
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@128 Careful, Pamela, no one has said anything bad about your kids, on the contrary, they've said kids are "smart" and "have brains," more so than most people give them credit for. You haven't let them see the comment thread, but have "told them" what it says, and have reported that they feel "condescended to" by what has been said.
You may be forgetting that a lot of the people who comment on Slog have been badly bullied themselves, and have talked about how humor helped them through it, or how they really did see a highschool bully years later in a dead-end job (and yes, that's elitist, but that's life, too.) I don't think anyone has said that your students shouldn't think what they think, they've said that we as adults have the power to give young teens a different perspective on some things.
Maybe this video itself is too "raw" for your students to see the humor in right now, but to suggest that you have nothing to teach them, that you are learning everything important from your 14 year olds, and how dare people on this thread suggest things you could tell them? I think adults do, in fact, have a lot that they can teach kids, and it's silly to suggest otherwise.
You may be forgetting that a lot of the people who comment on Slog have been badly bullied themselves, and have talked about how humor helped them through it, or how they really did see a highschool bully years later in a dead-end job (and yes, that's elitist, but that's life, too.) I don't think anyone has said that your students shouldn't think what they think, they've said that we as adults have the power to give young teens a different perspective on some things.
Maybe this video itself is too "raw" for your students to see the humor in right now, but to suggest that you have nothing to teach them, that you are learning everything important from your 14 year olds, and how dare people on this thread suggest things you could tell them? I think adults do, in fact, have a lot that they can teach kids, and it's silly to suggest otherwise.
130
The video is not alleged satire. It is satire. It is not poorly done satire. It is well done satire, if a little overly obvious at times. The problem is that your kids don't know good satire. This is not a surprise. Contrary to some of the other posters insistence, kids are idiots, and really don't understand satire unless it's really over the top(i.e. thinking it would be better if Mr. Bonsignore affected gay mannerisms). The salutatorian of my class thought A Modest Proposal was completely sincere when we read it in 10th grade. The way to judge good satire is not by measuring how well teenagers see through it.
Your point that your kids were hurt by a perceived slight is a fair one, but don't coddle them by telling them that it's bad satire. Tell them it's not meant to offend them, let them watch one of the countless other videos that make them feel better about themselves, and let those who can appreciate humor do so. Feel free to exercise your first amendment rights to attempt to rid the world of humor that might offend or hurt someone, but don't get an attitude when people who enjoy humor rail against you for being a wet rag. However harmful you think a video like this is, it can't even begin to undo the good that the movement as a whole is doing.
Your point that your kids were hurt by a perceived slight is a fair one, but don't coddle them by telling them that it's bad satire. Tell them it's not meant to offend them, let them watch one of the countless other videos that make them feel better about themselves, and let those who can appreciate humor do so. Feel free to exercise your first amendment rights to attempt to rid the world of humor that might offend or hurt someone, but don't get an attitude when people who enjoy humor rail against you for being a wet rag. However harmful you think a video like this is, it can't even begin to undo the good that the movement as a whole is doing.
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@Canuck -- as clarification, while I have not told them where exactly this conversation has taken place, I have provided them with many of the comments here -- directly, without editing, without commentary. I am an honest enough educator to know my own biases so I have not attempted to convey the the comments here in my own words. They have read your passages and many others in toto.
Clearly, I must be an inept communicator for you to have interpret my comments as saying "I have nothing to teach them" -- what do you think were doing all day yesterday and everyday we're together? When all is said and done, after providing them with all the resources and ideas and opinions I can get my hands on, THEY ARE ENTITLED TO MAKE UP THEIR OWN MINDS! I refuse to indoctrinate or dictate to them what they should believe. The best gift I can give them is an opportunity to exercise their critical thinking skills.
You and others here have tried every which way to convince them that they should have liked that fake video and taken comfort from it because it was done by someone sympathetic to them. They aren't buying it. And I am not going to make them.
Clearly, I must be an inept communicator for you to have interpret my comments as saying "I have nothing to teach them" -- what do you think were doing all day yesterday and everyday we're together? When all is said and done, after providing them with all the resources and ideas and opinions I can get my hands on, THEY ARE ENTITLED TO MAKE UP THEIR OWN MINDS! I refuse to indoctrinate or dictate to them what they should believe. The best gift I can give them is an opportunity to exercise their critical thinking skills.
You and others here have tried every which way to convince them that they should have liked that fake video and taken comfort from it because it was done by someone sympathetic to them. They aren't buying it. And I am not going to make them.
132
My comment was not about trying to get anyone to love the fake video (personally, I thought it was silly). They were directed at your comments and your apparent 'there there' attitude. I only know from your writing how you are with these kids. And from what I've read here you see them as victims and treat them accordingly. Martin Luther King has a great quote "Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will." What you've said here makes it seem like these kids are mostly a source of validation for how wonderful you are.
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@ 132 - The point I was making all along.
Is there anyone left who still doubts her absolute bad faith? She's accusing us of her own crime...
Is there anyone left who still doubts her absolute bad faith? She's accusing us of her own crime...
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The sad thing about this whole exchange is that we are all on the same side, Pamela is mentoring gay teens in a small homophobic town, I volunteer with a gay/straight group where I live, others who have commented have lived through homophobic bullying, etc. The one word that has been bandied about the most is "condescending." Pamela sees the attempts here to justify using/watching the video as condescending, people here have seen her comments, in turn, as condescending. For a bunch of liberal people who are all ostensibly on the same side, we seem to be having a very hard time making our points without getting someone else's back up. Without THIS sounding too condescending, I think it's interesting to go back a re-read the comments and see how they escalate from "why did this happen/why don't you like it" into f-bombs and name-calling. It's pretty easy to see how, when you feel someone isn't "hearing" you, to make the next comment just a little meaner. I think we're all trying to do good work here, and while we may not get it right every time (any parents out there know this is true a lot of the time), I think we are all trying to make things better. Whew.
140
Pamela,
No one says that your students have to like the fake video. But they seem to be reading a hell of a lot of ill will into it. I understand that given where they live and what they have experienced it is understandable to expect humor involving anything to do with homophobia to be homophobic or anyone who isn't part of your own group to be condescending to you, but I would have hoped that kids who are as intelligent as you've described could understand that support comes in different forms.
Okay, so it is elitist to suggest that a career as an assistant manager at Lady Footlocker is not someone's life goal. Did your students see Dan's and Terry's original video, in which Terry says that living well is the best revenge as elitist, too?
You can be proud of your parents and the work they do and still want a better-paying, more satisfying career. I'd wager that the parents who have retail jobs hope that their kids have more options than that, as well.
Without trying to resort to name-calling, I'd suggest that a bunch of easily hurt and thin-skinned (for whatever legitimate historical reason) young people have got their panties in a twist, and rather than attempt to pull the offending material out of ass-cracks, you have cranked it tighter.
Maybe your students need to learn the wisdom of the great rabbinic sage, Reb Rodney King: "Can't we all just get along?" At least those of us professedly on the same side!
No one says that your students have to like the fake video. But they seem to be reading a hell of a lot of ill will into it. I understand that given where they live and what they have experienced it is understandable to expect humor involving anything to do with homophobia to be homophobic or anyone who isn't part of your own group to be condescending to you, but I would have hoped that kids who are as intelligent as you've described could understand that support comes in different forms.
Okay, so it is elitist to suggest that a career as an assistant manager at Lady Footlocker is not someone's life goal. Did your students see Dan's and Terry's original video, in which Terry says that living well is the best revenge as elitist, too?
You can be proud of your parents and the work they do and still want a better-paying, more satisfying career. I'd wager that the parents who have retail jobs hope that their kids have more options than that, as well.
Without trying to resort to name-calling, I'd suggest that a bunch of easily hurt and thin-skinned (for whatever legitimate historical reason) young people have got their panties in a twist, and rather than attempt to pull the offending material out of ass-cracks, you have cranked it tighter.
Maybe your students need to learn the wisdom of the great rabbinic sage, Reb Rodney King: "Can't we all just get along?" At least those of us professedly on the same side!
141
Oh my god, I just watched the video here: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xf3xbo_…... I really don't understand how anyone could take that seriously, and if they did, how it could possibly be construed as anything other than anti-bully. So confused about Pamela's reaction...
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Oh yeah, but Pamela *is* on the good guys' side, so I'm not going to me mean to/about her. I just LOVED the video! SO freaking funny!!!
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Clearly this video, good or bad, has provided an incredible teaching moment for Pamela and anyone else who mentors groups of LGBT teens. It has brought her band of kids even closer together and opened many avenues of discussion.
Her apparent concern? That some "un-mentored" LGBT teen sitting alone in his/her room somehow will be traumatized by this video, therefore she asks that the video be removed. This thread has morphed and meandered in an interesting way since then, but I still don't buy the original position - that the video warrents censorship to protect teens who somehow will have a bad reaction. I truly don't think any teen would "stumble" upon this video without knowledge of the vast, vast treasure trove of positive LGBT stuff that has exploded upon the scene (due to Dan's good work and momentum).
I say leave it up - let the discussions continue - allow other mentors to do their work....
Her apparent concern? That some "un-mentored" LGBT teen sitting alone in his/her room somehow will be traumatized by this video, therefore she asks that the video be removed. This thread has morphed and meandered in an interesting way since then, but I still don't buy the original position - that the video warrents censorship to protect teens who somehow will have a bad reaction. I truly don't think any teen would "stumble" upon this video without knowledge of the vast, vast treasure trove of positive LGBT stuff that has exploded upon the scene (due to Dan's good work and momentum).
I say leave it up - let the discussions continue - allow other mentors to do their work....
145
I can't believe there's a debate going on about whether or not this is fake. It's fucking sarcasm for christ's sake.
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@145: Duder, keep up! The "is it real" debate was over before we got to #50. And I think the word you're looking for is "satire," not "sarcasm."
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@11: "if you hate feminine characteristics in a man then you hate women to some extent; something your girlfriend will pick up on."
Hate and disrespect can overlap, but they are not the same thing. Venn diagram. You can hate what you respect, and you can enjoy what you disrespect. Plenty of women condone or outright approve of men who think less of femininity than masculinity, so your warning here is based on a very idealized notion of female response to male behavior; one which may occur among your friends but is not widespread. Alas.
Hate and disrespect can overlap, but they are not the same thing. Venn diagram. You can hate what you respect, and you can enjoy what you disrespect. Plenty of women condone or outright approve of men who think less of femininity than masculinity, so your warning here is based on a very idealized notion of female response to male behavior; one which may occur among your friends but is not widespread. Alas.
148
Ah, Pamela!...
We're on the same side, and you see "condescending" here.
All I see is this: you sent a letter to a person who is on your side. A letter in which you doubted his good will and good intentions without any evidence as far as I can see. That's what I protested against, and I still do: I think that was uncalled-for. It is as if you had written to Dan about how the It Gets Better project actually supports bullying: it misses the point.
Am I saying your students don't have the right not to like the video? No. They can like or dislike whatever they want. I am saying that you did something wrong: you mistook an ally for an enemy. Do you see the difference?
I hope you do. My point has always been about friendly fire, and fire against a video that is in many ways very funny and defends the cause (not everything that defends the cause will please your students, of course, but that's another topic for discussion).
I hope you will see that you did something wrong here, and stop thinking that I (or others here) are accusing your students. As far as I can see (and I'll let the others speak for themselves), I am not.
But all in all, please keep the good fight. It's better to have fallible human beings who sometimes feel angry for the wrong reasons than to have perfect angels on one's side. For one thing, the latter would be very boring and create feelings of insufficiency in the others!
As for the rest, I wish you the best.
We're on the same side, and you see "condescending" here.
All I see is this: you sent a letter to a person who is on your side. A letter in which you doubted his good will and good intentions without any evidence as far as I can see. That's what I protested against, and I still do: I think that was uncalled-for. It is as if you had written to Dan about how the It Gets Better project actually supports bullying: it misses the point.
Am I saying your students don't have the right not to like the video? No. They can like or dislike whatever they want. I am saying that you did something wrong: you mistook an ally for an enemy. Do you see the difference?
I hope you do. My point has always been about friendly fire, and fire against a video that is in many ways very funny and defends the cause (not everything that defends the cause will please your students, of course, but that's another topic for discussion).
I hope you will see that you did something wrong here, and stop thinking that I (or others here) are accusing your students. As far as I can see (and I'll let the others speak for themselves), I am not.
But all in all, please keep the good fight. It's better to have fallible human beings who sometimes feel angry for the wrong reasons than to have perfect angels on one's side. For one thing, the latter would be very boring and create feelings of insufficiency in the others!
As for the rest, I wish you the best.
150
I think the main problem is that Pamela says things like, "Nobody needs to tell them what to think or how to feel" and "When all is said and done, after providing them with all the resources and ideas and opinions I can get my hands on, THEY ARE ENTITLED TO MAKE UP THEIR OWN MINDS!" but isn't practicing what she preaches.
151
You do all know, especially you Pamela, that this video was taken down because it violated Youtube terms of service. Not because Pamela sent him a message. It exists elsewhere so please stop making it look like he agreed with you Pamela.
152
Listen Pamela, I know you think you are doing the right thing, and I'm sorry to say this because you seem like you could be a nice person, but you are WRONG. One piece of information that you keep ignoring is the fact that you are talking to a group of people who know what they are talking about based on experience. I was the president of my high schools Gay Straight Alliance. I wouldn't be telling you this if I didn't know I was right. You are not doing these kids any favors by teaching them to be offended by something as simply harmless as this video. You are going to end up teaching them to be taken in by those "I'm sorry" types of creeps who who write heartfelt sounding diatribes about how Jesus can cure them. Kids need to know how to read something for what it is, not just project their own feelings onto it.
Also, your claim that the author of the video agreed with you and took it down is just silly. The video wasn't taken down by the author. It was removed by YouTube. You can find this information out by trying to access the file again. I don't know why you would assume he agreed with you when you also say that he didn't contact you directly in response at all. The video was immediately re-posted to a different site. Perhaps your students are also ready for a lesson in the difference between an observation and an inference.
And as for this:
"Dang! I forgot the funniest point... The students said the "satire" actually would have worked if the guy behaved stereotypically gay with affections that he was "clueless" about."
I seriously can't believe you would consider yourself to be in a position to judge anyone's taste with a comment like that. Most people would consider that a lot more homophobic than what is in the video. I assume the "affections" part is a typo.
The It Gets Better Project is a teaching tool for kids to learn from the experiences of successful (emotionally, socially, and even, yes, financially) adults. It's not a forum for everyone to commiserate about how oppressed they are.
More...
Also, your claim that the author of the video agreed with you and took it down is just silly. The video wasn't taken down by the author. It was removed by YouTube. You can find this information out by trying to access the file again. I don't know why you would assume he agreed with you when you also say that he didn't contact you directly in response at all. The video was immediately re-posted to a different site. Perhaps your students are also ready for a lesson in the difference between an observation and an inference.
And as for this:
"Dang! I forgot the funniest point... The students said the "satire" actually would have worked if the guy behaved stereotypically gay with affections that he was "clueless" about."
I seriously can't believe you would consider yourself to be in a position to judge anyone's taste with a comment like that. Most people would consider that a lot more homophobic than what is in the video. I assume the "affections" part is a typo.
The It Gets Better Project is a teaching tool for kids to learn from the experiences of successful (emotionally, socially, and even, yes, financially) adults. It's not a forum for everyone to commiserate about how oppressed they are.
153
I apologize to @151 but I never read the unregistered comments. I have no idea why I read yours. Must have been some sort of supernatural guilt.
154
Awesome video.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xf3xbo_…
FYI. It is satire. It's pro gay. I guess the dorks at youtube can't read any sub text, so they blocked the video.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xf3xbo_…
FYI. It is satire. It's pro gay. I guess the dorks at youtube can't read any sub text, so they blocked the video.
155
The only thing that might redeem this whole thread would be if it turns out that PamelaGRW is satire. But, if you're for real Pamela, I want you to know we love you deary. You keep on fighting that good fight. Just maybe consider aiming your guns a wee bit higher over the heads of your allies so we can avoid friendly fire.
156
What's sad, I mean really sad is that this isn't how bullies necessarily end up.
Homophobia is accepted because it's accepted at the top-level.
We think the worst homophobes, racists, and sexists are all "redneck hillbilly hicks".
I got news for you... they're not. When you protest Target's political donations, awful policies, glass ceilings, school administrators who don't care, or a systematic abuse of people, do you really think you're talking about night-managers at a Lady's Footlocker or someone else?
The video's funny, but it's just naive self-comfort if you think this is how most bigots end up.
Homophobia is accepted because it's accepted at the top-level.
We think the worst homophobes, racists, and sexists are all "redneck hillbilly hicks".
I got news for you... they're not. When you protest Target's political donations, awful policies, glass ceilings, school administrators who don't care, or a systematic abuse of people, do you really think you're talking about night-managers at a Lady's Footlocker or someone else?
The video's funny, but it's just naive self-comfort if you think this is how most bigots end up.
157
What's sad, I mean really sad is that this isn't how bullies necessarily end up.
Homophobia is accepted because it's accepted at the top-level.
We think the worst homophobes, racists, and sexists are all "redneck hillbilly hicks".
I got news for you... they're not. When you protest Target's political donations, awful policies, glass ceilings, school administrators who don't care, or a systematic abuse of people, do you really think you're talking about night-managers at a Lady's Footlocker or someone else?
The video's funny, but it's just naive self-comfort if you think this is how most bigots end up.
Homophobia is accepted because it's accepted at the top-level.
We think the worst homophobes, racists, and sexists are all "redneck hillbilly hicks".
I got news for you... they're not. When you protest Target's political donations, awful policies, glass ceilings, school administrators who don't care, or a systematic abuse of people, do you really think you're talking about night-managers at a Lady's Footlocker or someone else?
The video's funny, but it's just naive self-comfort if you think this is how most bigots end up.
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