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News & ArtsTuesday, October 5, 2010
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: Does It Count?
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 4:23 PM
My name is Brock. I live with my girlfriend and her best friend. It’s like a less funny Threes Company. We were having a debate the other day that I decided could be resolved by you, given that your opinion is more legit than any of ours. Is it considered “going down” on someone if they don’t have an orgasm? For instance, one night, right before my girlfriend and I have sex, she sucks my penis for five minutes, then we switch to traditional penis-in-vagina sex.Would she be able to tell her friends the next day (hypothetically) that last night, she went down on her boyfriend and then we had sex? Or do I have to have cum while she was sucking my penis for her to have “gone down” on me? Personally I think that If I don’t have an orgasm from her sucking my penis, she didn’t necessarily “go down” on me, but both the girls I live with have decided to join forces against me and say that I am wrong. Help me Dan Savage, you’re my only hope! Please, if your eyes ever grace this message, please give me an answer to rub in their faces, or even if I am wrong, I am man enough to admit it, and if you want me to, if I am wrong, I will prove it to you that I admitted it. Thanks Dan, I always read your section in our “Eugene Weekly” every week, and always enjoy it.
Brock
My response after the jump...
•••••••••••••
A thought experiment, Brock: let's say I come over to your place, bend you over the sofa, and fuck your ass for, let's say, an entire episode Judge Judy. But after 30 minutes in Judith Sheindlin's courtroom—and your ass—I pull my dick out of your ass and get myself off with my hand.
Did I masturbate? Or did I fuck your ass?
I would say I pretty much fucked your ass, Brock, and I suspect you would say the same. In fact, I'm positive you would say the same.
Similarly, if your girlfriend sucks your dick, Brock, then you have to concede that she went down on you even if you didn't orgasm in her mouth, same as I fucked your ass during a whole episode of Judge Judy even if I didn't orgasm in your butt. So when she sucks you and then you fuck her, Brock, you and the girlfriend are having oral sex first as foreplay, then vaginal intercourse for the main event.
In conclusion, Brock, you are wrong—and I'm curious how you intend to prove to me that you admitted it to Chrissy and Janet.
2
I cannot believe THREE PEOPLE couldn't figure this one out. It's sweet, like the Special Olympics, though.
4
Going down is a very separate act than reaching orgasm; how this dude could conclude otherwise is beyond me.
5
@1 - Agreed. However, good to see that the old Dan is back with his unique talent for analogy. Maybe he needs a coupl'a softballs while he's making a full recovery to health.
6
This guy reads Dan's column every week and he didn't know the answer to this question? What the hell?
12
Dan, are you watching daytime TV court shows since you are sick? I'm embarrased to admit it, but that's what I do. I don't have to think a lot, and I get to feel superior to at least a few people.
Great answer, by the way, to a very stupid question.
Great answer, by the way, to a very stupid question.
13
Wow. If I was this guy's girl, I would cease all sexual action until he learned some sex ed.
To me, this sounds like a college guy who has yet to unlearn all his male-entitlement, porn≠real-life-sex shit:
C'mon, it doesn't count, so she OWES me more real ones! She didn't really go down on me unless she swallows or I shoot it in 'er eye!
Young cock. Easy to rinse'n'repeat but the quality just ain't there sometimes.
To me, this sounds like a college guy who has yet to unlearn all his male-entitlement, porn≠real-life-sex shit:
C'mon, it doesn't count, so she OWES me more real ones! She didn't really go down on me unless she swallows or I shoot it in 'er eye!
Young cock. Easy to rinse'n'repeat but the quality just ain't there sometimes.
16
The letterwriter does not have a girlfriend. The letterwriter does not have an apartment. Anyone over the age of 12 already knows the answer to that imbecilic question.
But Dan's answer is beyond perfect.
But Dan's answer is beyond perfect.
17
Brock has to get with the times, hello?
next time consider "Help me Dan- http://www.youtube.com/itgetsbetterproje… -Savage, you’re my only hope!"
sheesh sometimes i think i'm living off the Ave listening to KCMU sunday night Savage.
Actually those were better times. Nowadays, deaths of older family members are starting to pick up speed. It's a little tough emotionally.
next time consider "Help me Dan- http://www.youtube.com/itgetsbetterproje… -Savage, you’re my only hope!"
sheesh sometimes i think i'm living off the Ave listening to KCMU sunday night Savage.
Actually those were better times. Nowadays, deaths of older family members are starting to pick up speed. It's a little tough emotionally.
21
@18, that the two girls could not convince the writer means that...well, they do deserve a ribbon for trying, just as in....well, the Special Olympics.
22
While I concur that this question is stupid, I also think it's a case of semantics. "Going Down" clearly signifies any oral sex, but if the question had been about the phrase "blowjob," I would have agreed with Brock. I never thought about it till I read this question, but the addition of the word "job" implies that oral is the only thing you did. After all, no man would ever say his girl gave him a "hand job" if she played with him till he was hard then they fucked. Somehow, the addition of the word job means "and that was where we stopped."
23
"No, of course I didn't go down* on all your buddies at the party you missed, honey!"
...
...
...
*according to your definition
...
...
...
*according to your definition
24
Okay, so I'm working through this one...the act, whatever it is, didn't really *happen* unless orgasm occurs? Cool, so basically, by virtue of the fact that I dated dumb jock lacrosse players for too many years, who couldn't find a clitoris with a map and 2 flashlights, I didn't really have sex until I was in my mid twenties? Cool! You know, Christine O'Donnell is gonna be ALL OVER this one: No orgasm=No sex act!
So, I could've compete in gus's olympics, in the Virgin Mary category!
So, I could've compete in gus's olympics, in the Virgin Mary category!
25
Presumably, if his girlfriend sucked another guy's dick but didn't let him come in her mouth, he (the letter writer) would be cool with that, right?
26
Yeah, she went down on him. It just didn't have a happy ending. :-(
But, to be completely accurate, the sequel did.
But, to be completely accurate, the sequel did.
27
This is why I like triad relationship arrangements... usually (usually) when a situation comes up and two agree and one dissents, the one is forced to see the light/truth and assent. (This assumes a total lack of malevolence within the relationship, of course.)
I also agree with #13, dude sounds a bit young/entitled/male-priviledge blinded.
I also agree with #13, dude sounds a bit young/entitled/male-priviledge blinded.
28
"even if you didn't orgasm in her mouth"
Am I the only one who chafes at the use of the word "orgasm" as a verb?
(And I realize, like all internet grammar alerts, that it's petty and pointless, but I'm just curious if this one is peculiar to me.)
Am I the only one who chafes at the use of the word "orgasm" as a verb?
(And I realize, like all internet grammar alerts, that it's petty and pointless, but I'm just curious if this one is peculiar to me.)
29
This just leads me back to my question: should "giving head" be considered gender neutral, as with "going down"? To be fair, they are both heads.
And would "giving head" imply completion, as with a "job," or would it be tantamount to "going down?"
As a vagina owner I'm for saying "I got head last night," but what about the "job" part? "I got head and came" vs "He blew me" doesn't seem right, especially considering that I own a strap on and that could just get confusing.
And would "giving head" imply completion, as with a "job," or would it be tantamount to "going down?"
As a vagina owner I'm for saying "I got head last night," but what about the "job" part? "I got head and came" vs "He blew me" doesn't seem right, especially considering that I own a strap on and that could just get confusing.
31
Why do so many people write to Dan asking him to clarify definitions?
"Am I gay?" "Did we have sex?" "Does this technically make me a triskadekaphiliac or am I just normal but with a little thing?"
Seriously, what the fuck? You can't figure out the answers to this questions yourselves? More importantly, you can't figure out that they're stupid fucking questions?
"Am I gay?" "Did we have sex?" "Does this technically make me a triskadekaphiliac or am I just normal but with a little thing?"
Seriously, what the fuck? You can't figure out the answers to this questions yourselves? More importantly, you can't figure out that they're stupid fucking questions?
32
@29: Can't answer your other questions, but I've always used "giving/getting head" for both genders. I mean, what else can I say? I was "gone down on"? Yeeeech.
33
yet another strike-out. C'mon, Dan, do you still have that cold and it's impairing your judgment: judgment on worthy letters?
ACUPUNCTURE!
ACUPUNCTURE!
34
I'm trying to figure out why anyone would argue about this, and the only thing I can come up with is that they're keeping track in some sort of "you owe me one" scorekeeping. Which means that this is a household that needs more oral sex - if it was an everyday event, this kind of chickenshit stuff wouldn't be happening.
35
@22, I love it.
The "going" in "going down" points to its elective, possibly ephemeral character - the fellator may choose to engage and disengage as the mood strikes. It does have that virtue of applicable to any gender.
By contrast, the "job" in "blow job" underscores that term's roots in sex work bought by males - it describes the maximum activity for which the worker has been paid, and for which the client expects completion.
Canuck @24, I award you the Gold Medal for Patience.
@28, I'm with you, clinical schminical.
The "going" in "going down" points to its elective, possibly ephemeral character - the fellator may choose to engage and disengage as the mood strikes. It does have that virtue of applicable to any gender.
By contrast, the "job" in "blow job" underscores that term's roots in sex work bought by males - it describes the maximum activity for which the worker has been paid, and for which the client expects completion.
Canuck @24, I award you the Gold Medal for Patience.
@28, I'm with you, clinical schminical.
36
Now, my question is... when does HE go down on HER?
Maybe the confusion comes from the fact that he doesn't, and she should be hooking up with that best friend of hers.
Maybe the confusion comes from the fact that he doesn't, and she should be hooking up with that best friend of hers.
37
@35 And is it true, gus, as I've read, that "blow job" comes from "below job," meaning below the waist?
And yes, I have the frickin patience of Job. Just goes to show they don't teach you everything in a good liberal arts college... :)
And yes, I have the frickin patience of Job. Just goes to show they don't teach you everything in a good liberal arts college... :)
38
I'm betting this guy is constantly bringing shit like this up at home hoping it somehow leads to a 3-way. Dude's seen too many movies.
40
You do see where this is going, right? He was hoping the answer would be no so that he could convince the best friend to blow him and it wouldn't be cheating.
42
I'm really confused.
It sounds like the guy likes girls, and the girl likes a guy.
That's not possible...right?
It sounds like the guy likes girls, and the girl likes a guy.
That's not possible...right?
44
Dear Brock,
Feel free to blow me for half an hour or so. If I don't come, it won't technically be a gay sex act, will it?
Feel free to blow me for half an hour or so. If I don't come, it won't technically be a gay sex act, will it?
45
Sadly, this guy can't be as young as some of you think (which would be comforting, I'll admit): he refers to Three's Company.
My guess is that it's a way older guy, already struck by senility in some form (how else could he have found TC in any way amusing?), who hasn't had a hard-on since Chrissy left the apartment (or, more accurately, since Chrissy's boobs left the apartment) and who's desperately trying to get people to suggest inventive scenarios involving him, his imaginary girlfriend and their imaginary roomate coz they cancelled TC reruns in Eugene and now he has nothing to unsuccessfully attempt to wank to every day.
My guess is that it's a way older guy, already struck by senility in some form (how else could he have found TC in any way amusing?), who hasn't had a hard-on since Chrissy left the apartment (or, more accurately, since Chrissy's boobs left the apartment) and who's desperately trying to get people to suggest inventive scenarios involving him, his imaginary girlfriend and their imaginary roomate coz they cancelled TC reruns in Eugene and now he has nothing to unsuccessfully attempt to wank to every day.
47
God, you must be sick to even consider heaving this junior high school vomitus on your readers. Hope you get well soon, and we get back to some letters that actually come close to reality.
48
@28: You're not alone. It's already one of the most hideous words in the English language anyway. Why use it any more often than strictly necessary?
49
@28 - No, you're not the only one who objects. Sheesh. I hate that kind of thing. Next thing we know, people will be "door"ing to get into a building.
51
Haven't we learned anything from the South? It doesn't count unless it's in the Va-ga and mountain dew douche is an effective alternative to birth control. (and thank you @46!)
52
Re: orgasm as a verb. It's in the dictionary as a verb and has been used as such since at least 1973. It's going on forty years here in that usage. That ship has sailed.
53
"Is there anything I can do for you that would make our sex life better?"
"Yes, you could go down on me more often. I really love that"
"I go down on you all the time! I went down on you last night!"
"No, you licked it twice and then we fucked. That's different"
If this is how that conversation went, then I am totally on this man's side. But then, I am a sympathetic reader.
"Yes, you could go down on me more often. I really love that"
"I go down on you all the time! I went down on you last night!"
"No, you licked it twice and then we fucked. That's different"
If this is how that conversation went, then I am totally on this man's side. But then, I am a sympathetic reader.
54
I didn't have an orgasm from oral sex until it had been attempted at least several dozens times, but I'm pretty sure those folks (some of whom gave it a HELL of an effort) still went down on me.
60
@53 - Yeah, this seems like a pretty viable reading of the situation. In my stingier times, I definitely tried to get away with "counting" pretty minimal amounts of mouth-penis contact as fulfilling any perceived obligations. If this is about him being dissatisfied with the situation (rather than just being really into semantics), then he needs to get a little better at communicating what he wants to his girlfriend and/or what his question really is for Dan Savage. If his question is, "Am I right to be annoyed that my girlfriend counts oral-genital contact insufficient to get me off as fulfilling her blowjob quota?" I'm guessing the response would not have been the assfucking analogy.
61
This is more lame than a 3's company episode, really!
Simple, there's cock sucking, and blowjobing, as we are making things into verb, right?
Oh, and 59, cut the heterophobia/heterobashing mmmk?
Isn't that what 'alternative sexual expression' rights are all about? Not being hated on for who you are, gay/straight, lame/smarty pants?
Since this dude is much more likely than not young, your statement could also be youth-o-phobic/bashing!
So there ya big meenie!
Simple, there's cock sucking, and blowjobing, as we are making things into verb, right?
Oh, and 59, cut the heterophobia/heterobashing mmmk?
Isn't that what 'alternative sexual expression' rights are all about? Not being hated on for who you are, gay/straight, lame/smarty pants?
Since this dude is much more likely than not young, your statement could also be youth-o-phobic/bashing!
So there ya big meenie!
62
It's always enjoyable to watch clips of Dan's speaking engagements or news show appearances. He's got a great sense of humor and always makes me laugh. His blogs and column are also fun to read. HIs work on the It Gets Better project deserves a Nobel Peace prize.
But that Motherfucker has now totally ruined Judge Judy for me. I shall never be able to watch another episode of Judge Judy without the image of Dan Savage knocking on somebody's door, entering their humble abode, and then ass fucking the person. Ugh. That image just makes me want to scrub brain with Clorox.
But that Motherfucker has now totally ruined Judge Judy for me. I shall never be able to watch another episode of Judge Judy without the image of Dan Savage knocking on somebody's door, entering their humble abode, and then ass fucking the person. Ugh. That image just makes me want to scrub brain with Clorox.
63
I don't know if Judge Judy is a staple in Dan's sexual encounters (*shudder* I've always found her to be the ultimate boner-killer), but that scenario of Dan bursting in and fucking the guy while Judge Judy screams at someone on TV made me laugh hysterically.
64
I can't stand Judge Judy either, but more people watch her than watch fucking Oprah, fer Crissakes. She's obviously doing something right.
65
This is all very amusing, but Savage Love is a sex advice column. Even if the individuals who write in are in on the joke, other people will read this at face value.
I don't think Dan has responded to the question in a responsible manner, that respects the fact a lot of people are confused about aspects of sex and sexuality and that they deserve straight answers and decent information.
Using it as an excuse to show off about how he could fuck a man up the ass if he wanted, even a straight man, I don't think is very ethical of Mr Savage.
I don't think Dan has responded to the question in a responsible manner, that respects the fact a lot of people are confused about aspects of sex and sexuality and that they deserve straight answers and decent information.
Using it as an excuse to show off about how he could fuck a man up the ass if he wanted, even a straight man, I don't think is very ethical of Mr Savage.
66
Everyone is making up these explanations about entitlement and counting for why the LW asked, but some of us just like semantics.
For what it's worth, one can only go down on a female, and only give head or a blow job to a male. And orgasm isn't required for any of them, not even for a blow job.
The really interesting question is what counts as "having sex" and how many times. If a guy receives oral without an orgasm for five minutes, takes a 15 minute break, gives a girl oral with an orgasm for five minutes, takes a 15 minute break, has vaginal intercourse with an orgasm for her but not him, takes another 15 minute break, and then has vaginal with orgasms for both, when and how many times did they have sex?
I'm thinking twice, because "have sex" for men usually just refers to vaginal or anal but not necessarily orgasm (oral is still sex, but the phrase "having sex" has a more specific meaning). But you can make arguments for 1, 3, or 4 times as well. And do the lengths of the breaks matter?
For what it's worth, one can only go down on a female, and only give head or a blow job to a male. And orgasm isn't required for any of them, not even for a blow job.
The really interesting question is what counts as "having sex" and how many times. If a guy receives oral without an orgasm for five minutes, takes a 15 minute break, gives a girl oral with an orgasm for five minutes, takes a 15 minute break, has vaginal intercourse with an orgasm for her but not him, takes another 15 minute break, and then has vaginal with orgasms for both, when and how many times did they have sex?
I'm thinking twice, because "have sex" for men usually just refers to vaginal or anal but not necessarily orgasm (oral is still sex, but the phrase "having sex" has a more specific meaning). But you can make arguments for 1, 3, or 4 times as well. And do the lengths of the breaks matter?
67
I don't think Dan was very responsible in his advice, here.
I can see the humour in his response, but even if the individuals writing in to Savage Love are in on 'the joke', other people will read the column at face value.
To use a sex advice column to make fun of people's confusion/ignorance about sex and sexuality, and to make it clear how easy it would be for Dan to fuck a 'straight' man up the ass, is to my mind unethical.
Information about sex is scarce enough. We need more honest, straightforward and informative sex columnists and agony aunts and uncles. I am disappointed.
I can see the humour in his response, but even if the individuals writing in to Savage Love are in on 'the joke', other people will read the column at face value.
To use a sex advice column to make fun of people's confusion/ignorance about sex and sexuality, and to make it clear how easy it would be for Dan to fuck a 'straight' man up the ass, is to my mind unethical.
Information about sex is scarce enough. We need more honest, straightforward and informative sex columnists and agony aunts and uncles. I am disappointed.
68
@65: He gave a clear, accurate, direct answer (though I'm not sure I'd call it "straight"). The bit about anal sex was an illustrative example to make his point clearer, not bragging about how he could have sex with straight men (where did you even get that?)
70
Uhhhh yyyyeah. He had no intention to get an answer to his question. He just wanted to brag. Although, he could have spiced it up a bit.
71
A few more words of advice for the letter writer:
- You cannot get your girlfriend pregnant from oral sex
- It's not true that you can't make a girl pregnant if it's her first time
- There's this thing, it looks like a little button, above your girlfriends vagina. It's called her "clitoris". Just banging her hole like you saw in the movies probably won't do it. Ask your girlfriend to explain how to touch it.
When you have questions about girls and girl-bits find a grownup you can trust to ask, ok sweetie? ;-)
- You cannot get your girlfriend pregnant from oral sex
- It's not true that you can't make a girl pregnant if it's her first time
- There's this thing, it looks like a little button, above your girlfriends vagina. It's called her "clitoris". Just banging her hole like you saw in the movies probably won't do it. Ask your girlfriend to explain how to touch it.
When you have questions about girls and girl-bits find a grownup you can trust to ask, ok sweetie? ;-)
72
@67/69: When you ask "adult" questions, you're going to get adult answers. Sorry if you're only 13, but there's still a lot you can learn from Dan (and hopefully the rest of us). Just try to keep in mind that a lot of this is kinda old hat for most of us.
75
#46 ftw!
I put my boyfriend's cock in my mouth pretty much every time we get sexy. It's his favorite thing in the whole wide world. Sometimes that results in my finishing him off through oral, sometimes it's a prelude to sex. I honestly believe that to some degree my boyfriend would be perfectly happy if I sucked him off every time--but, then, where does that leave me, a lucky lady who can have vaginal orgasms and loooooves the intercourse more than I care for digital or oral stimulation? The question is based in this desire. He doesn't want it to count because he wants to be able to make the argument that she needs to let him come in her mouth more often. I think it's totally about semantics, but semantics that are colored by personal desire and a hint of male privilege. Semantics don't exist in a vaccuum. They exist because of our differing stances on the definitions of words upon which we're arguing, and those stances are created by beliefs.
I put my boyfriend's cock in my mouth pretty much every time we get sexy. It's his favorite thing in the whole wide world. Sometimes that results in my finishing him off through oral, sometimes it's a prelude to sex. I honestly believe that to some degree my boyfriend would be perfectly happy if I sucked him off every time--but, then, where does that leave me, a lucky lady who can have vaginal orgasms and loooooves the intercourse more than I care for digital or oral stimulation? The question is based in this desire. He doesn't want it to count because he wants to be able to make the argument that she needs to let him come in her mouth more often. I think it's totally about semantics, but semantics that are colored by personal desire and a hint of male privilege. Semantics don't exist in a vaccuum. They exist because of our differing stances on the definitions of words upon which we're arguing, and those stances are created by beliefs.
76
@65: Your earnestness IS KILLING ME.
@66: "For what it's worth, one can only go down on a female, and only give head or a blow job to a male."
I love semantics too, but honestly, what I do, I call it whatever the hell I like, because I resent the fact that I, as a woman, am reduced to framing oral sex as always referring to the other party ("he went down on me"), the horribly clunky/clinical "I received/got oral", or the absurd "I was gone down on" (which is just asking for a hillbilly yuk-yuk). And if anything's going to be about me, I mean, fuck, it HAS to be oral sex. So I'm going to co-opt "head."
And seriously, how can you only "go down" on a woman? Both oral acts require some downward action. It just makes sense.
@66: "For what it's worth, one can only go down on a female, and only give head or a blow job to a male."
I love semantics too, but honestly, what I do, I call it whatever the hell I like, because I resent the fact that I, as a woman, am reduced to framing oral sex as always referring to the other party ("he went down on me"), the horribly clunky/clinical "I received/got oral", or the absurd "I was gone down on" (which is just asking for a hillbilly yuk-yuk). And if anything's going to be about me, I mean, fuck, it HAS to be oral sex. So I'm going to co-opt "head."
And seriously, how can you only "go down" on a woman? Both oral acts require some downward action. It just makes sense.
77
Okay, @53 & @60 give this a completely different spin, that may be a lot closer to the truth than the LW's letter (LWL?) implies. Going back and re-reading it with this other interpretation in mind, I have to wonder if the "5 minutes of head before sex" are of the "oh god, let's get this over with" variety? Although it was easy to make fun of his question re: semantics, I think the fact that he wrote about it obviously means he isn't happy with the situation the way it is, and that should be the real discussion. But hey, a man who has trouble expressing his real feelings? Who woulda thought??
78
I totally agree with 75. I would be much more willing to finish my guy off that way more often if it didn't end my fun. I like intercourse way better than receiving oral so even if he reciprocates afterward it ends up being a poor trade.
79
I third #75 - I love going down on him but if I finish the job, then he's done and I'm out of luck for the next 20 minutes. Which shouldn't be a problem except going down on him turns me on so much, I can come in about 5 minutes from fucking - fingers or dildo just isn't the same - but if it's his 2nd go-round, it's going to take him more like 20 minutes to come again. A lot of chafing can happen in that 15-minute gap. And I'm not multi-orgasmic, more like the "roll over and fall asleep" kind.
81
@78 Alternate days: one day he comes from blowjob, you come from fingers or oral; next day, you start with oral, and end with fucking.
@79: go down on him enough to turn you on but not enough for him to come. Get your five minute fuck, so you can come. Then -- and here's the crucial part -- don't "roll over and fall asleep!" Instead, give him the most enthusiastic blow job he ever had.
There, solved your problems for you.
@79: go down on him enough to turn you on but not enough for him to come. Get your five minute fuck, so you can come. Then -- and here's the crucial part -- don't "roll over and fall asleep!" Instead, give him the most enthusiastic blow job he ever had.
There, solved your problems for you.
82
First belly laugh of the day, Dan, thank you very much. I hope your vivid example makes it quite clear to "Jack Tripper" what is going on. If he doesn't get it with that one, he won't ever understand.
83
@EricaP, that's exactly what I was thinking in both cases. Maybe trying to find a solution to your own sexual problems is like trying to analyze your own dreams. The answer is always elusive to the person involved, but to everyone else it's really obvious.
84
I know this was all in good fun, but this has to be the single stupidest pissing match I've ever heard of.
One time in the ninth grade one of my female classmates accidentally grabbed my package in gym class. She didn't mean to, and I didn't "get off". It doesn't change the fact that she grabbed my package. This was more than twenty years ago and I still won't let her live it down.
One time in the ninth grade one of my female classmates accidentally grabbed my package in gym class. She didn't mean to, and I didn't "get off". It doesn't change the fact that she grabbed my package. This was more than twenty years ago and I still won't let her live it down.
85
It's semantics in the stupidest way.
Yeah, the girlfriend can tell her friend the next day that she went down on her boyfriend the night before (that is usually how all my conversations start). And Brock can not want to call it that because it happened briefly, perhaps unwillingly, and unsatisfactorily as far as he was concerned.
The problem isn't whether she gets to call what happened by a particular name; the problem is that he's not getting what he wanted, which apparently is to have an orgasm in his girlfriend's mouth.
That's what he should have been writing to Dan about--not who gets the *right* to call it what.
I have it on good authority that every time Mrs. Roper went down on Janet, they both came.
Yeah, the girlfriend can tell her friend the next day that she went down on her boyfriend the night before (that is usually how all my conversations start). And Brock can not want to call it that because it happened briefly, perhaps unwillingly, and unsatisfactorily as far as he was concerned.
The problem isn't whether she gets to call what happened by a particular name; the problem is that he's not getting what he wanted, which apparently is to have an orgasm in his girlfriend's mouth.
That's what he should have been writing to Dan about--not who gets the *right* to call it what.
I have it on good authority that every time Mrs. Roper went down on Janet, they both came.
86
So, you mean to tell me, if he's jacking off, but doesn't cum, he's just giving himself a massage??? WTF?!?!?!?
88
@75, 85: You may be right that the real issue is that he's not getting what he wants, but that's nowhere suggested in the letter, as I read it. I don't even see a hint that he's unsatisfied. If he thought it wasn't fair that he wasn't getting orgasms for oral, he probably would have just written that, and this column has had similar letters before.
@76: How do you feel about "got eaten"? It's a parallel construction to "got head". But please feel free to refer to sex with terms you like; it just sounds a little unusual to me. And good point that you literally do go downwards for fellatio as well; I just strongly associate "go down on" with cunnilingus for some reason.
@76: How do you feel about "got eaten"? It's a parallel construction to "got head". But please feel free to refer to sex with terms you like; it just sounds a little unusual to me. And good point that you literally do go downwards for fellatio as well; I just strongly associate "go down on" with cunnilingus for some reason.
89
It's oral sex if mouth-genital contact has occured for the purposes of sexual gratification. And it counts as sex any time any physical contact occurs for sexual gratification. And, for some rare people, it counts as sex when you smear jello in each other's hair while wearing clown suits.
91
@ 78 and 79--Glad I'm not the only one who struggles with this.
@88 Sure, I guess it's reading into it, but when people are arguing about what something means, they're bringing to the table their assumptions, beliefs, values, and desires. He wants going down on him to mean coming because that's what he wants. It's implied. Otherwise it wouldn't even matter.
@88 Sure, I guess it's reading into it, but when people are arguing about what something means, they're bringing to the table their assumptions, beliefs, values, and desires. He wants going down on him to mean coming because that's what he wants. It's implied. Otherwise it wouldn't even matter.
92
@89: As someone who loves semantic debates, I'm disheartened by the assumption that they're always a tool to further the participants' values and desires. Can't they sometimes just be fun and interesting, or furthered by curiosity to understand how others think and use words?
See, if what he wanted was for his girlfriend to make him come with her mouth more, *it wouldn't even matter* what the definition of "going down on" was. Because, in that case, he wouldn't just want to be "gone down on". He'd be looking for a specific *act* to take place, not a specific *term*. He'd ask "is it fair that she doesn't make me come with her mouth enough," and he'd probably get a favorable answer that way! He could concede the debate to her and say "but I don't just want to be gone down on! I want to come in your mouth!"
See, if what he wanted was for his girlfriend to make him come with her mouth more, *it wouldn't even matter* what the definition of "going down on" was. Because, in that case, he wouldn't just want to be "gone down on". He'd be looking for a specific *act* to take place, not a specific *term*. He'd ask "is it fair that she doesn't make me come with her mouth enough," and he'd probably get a favorable answer that way! He could concede the debate to her and say "but I don't just want to be gone down on! I want to come in your mouth!"
94
@92: Yay! I love semantics too.
THIS: "furthered by curiosity to understand how others think and use words?"
But sadly, @76, I think "got eaten" is a little weird. It could work, but I'd probably pause and go, "Uh..." after every time I use it.
THIS: "furthered by curiosity to understand how others think and use words?"
But sadly, @76, I think "got eaten" is a little weird. It could work, but I'd probably pause and go, "Uh..." after every time I use it.
96
@94: I guess I'm just used to hearing it, cause "got eaten" sounds perfectly normal to me. So does "got oral". How do you feel about "I got licked" or "I got some tongue"? (The "Uh..." reaction is how I would feel about a female saying she got "head": but keep using it and maybe it'll catch on!)
97
i'll watch judge judy only if dan will fuck me in the ass for a half-hour. but please cum inside me.
98
i'll watch judge judy only if dan will fuck me in the ass for a half-hour. but please cum inside me.
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