Slog
News & ArtsTuesday, October 5, 2010
Homo "How on earth can someone else’s simcha cause anyone 'pain and consternation'? If it does, that person needs therapy."
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 7:21 AM
The Jewish Standard—"dedicated to giving expression to all phases of Jewish life"—publishes a a wedding announcement for a gay Jewish couple and then promptly publishes a cringing, craven, spineless, bigoted apology after the anti-gay bigots plotz their panties. But the paper's readers aren't having it. Check out the comments.
1
I'll say this much: the average Jewish person seems a lot more sensible than the average Christian person.
3
I'm not Jewish, but I think that Jewish people, in general, can relate to what it's like to be oppressed. If they personally have not experienced this, they can look to history and the widespread genocide of the Jews, and remember that it was not so long ago that their ancestors were hunted down and exterminated just because they were Jewish.
4
I think that site may have some bad code in it somewhere. It triggered my antivirus software. Be careful - maybe just take Dan's word for it on this one.
7
Well, that's heartening. But let's not forget that Judaism also produced JONAH, an ex-gay organization, as well as several outspokenly homophobic rabbis who regularly pop up to spew some hate. So while these particular readers seem nice and friendly, there is a whole Jewish community that views homosexuality in much the same ways as the homophobes in every other religion.
8
I'm in awe of the Jewish Standard's commenters. Look at all those well-thought out, grammatically correct, perfectly spelled arguments. Compared to the slobbering pack of morons found in the comments sections of most daily newspapers (ex: The Seattle Times) it's a breath of fresh air.
9
From the comments:
"Thank you for making me feel like a valid and respected member of the Jewish community. Not. "
BURN
"Thank you for making me feel like a valid and respected member of the Jewish community. Not. "
BURN
10
@8 (and the first few comments) I had the same thought! And that they were all outraged at the paper's decision, not an apologist among them.
@7 You're right that all religions have their extremist nutjobs, but my guess is that there are far fewer intolerant Jews than intolerant Christians.
@7 You're right that all religions have their extremist nutjobs, but my guess is that there are far fewer intolerant Jews than intolerant Christians.
11
Hundreds and hundreds of comments denouncing the paper's gutless stance. They just go on and on and on.
14
@8
I've noticed the same level of intelligent discourse on British news sites; makes me sad.
I'm particularly pleased, though, with the following response:
That's a phrase that I'm just going to permanently store for future cut-and-paste jobs. It'll apply to many organizations (various churches, political parties, higher ed), and it'll save me a few seconds of typing.
I've noticed the same level of intelligent discourse on British news sites; makes me sad.
I'm particularly pleased, though, with the following response:
Take your mission seriously or take your lofty statements of principles down, you filthy hypocrites.
That's a phrase that I'm just going to permanently store for future cut-and-paste jobs. It'll apply to many organizations (various churches, political parties, higher ed), and it'll save me a few seconds of typing.
15
Never been so proud to be a Jew.
@7 - I believe that the founder of JONAH is a liar and a fraud on a number of levels. Not that that excludes him from being Jewish, but if he had to put his resume in order I think "nutjob" would be much higher on the list than "Jew."
@7 - I believe that the founder of JONAH is a liar and a fraud on a number of levels. Not that that excludes him from being Jewish, but if he had to put his resume in order I think "nutjob" would be much higher on the list than "Jew."
16
Considering the Jews started all this religious horse shit, why should they be any less bigoted? If it was just gay people in the Nazi death camps the Jews would have been just as dismissive of our suffrering as the Nazi's were.
18
@3 You're correct.
Also, when we tell the story of how we escaped from slavery in Egypt, we declare our responsibility to free others from oppression, too. We're not truly free until everyone is free.
Also, when we tell the story of how we escaped from slavery in Egypt, we declare our responsibility to free others from oppression, too. We're not truly free until everyone is free.
20
The original simcha is here:
http://www.jstandard.com/content/lifecyc…
One works at Keren Or, the Jerusalem Center for Blind Children with Multiple Disabilities. The other is working on two masters degrees at NYU, including one in Jewish studies. They look sweet in the picture.
http://www.jstandard.com/content/lifecyc…
One works at Keren Or, the Jerusalem Center for Blind Children with Multiple Disabilities. The other is working on two masters degrees at NYU, including one in Jewish studies. They look sweet in the picture.
21
@ 18 - Not to lead the debate in another direction, but that doesn't exactly explain Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, does it? So let's not get into a naive "all-Jews-are-way-better-than-others" mood, please. It does us all a disservice. Discrimination and persecution are bad, even when it's not against our own group or one we feel some connection to. (I know I'll get crucified for this, but I had to say it.)
What is undeniable is that the commentors on that particular thread are indeed a great example of that principle. And of good spelling and argumentation. To those people and to all those like them, as a gay man, I say "thank you, way to go!"
It would be nice to see the same kind of reaction in the christian or muslim communities.
What is undeniable is that the commentors on that particular thread are indeed a great example of that principle. And of good spelling and argumentation. To those people and to all those like them, as a gay man, I say "thank you, way to go!"
It would be nice to see the same kind of reaction in the christian or muslim communities.
23
The Jewish Standard needs to grow a pair and stand up for its principles.
@16: You need to stick your head in a bucket of ice water, pinch your arm, and slap yourself in the face.
Now that you're awake, go do some research on the issues, and stop blaming us for Christianity.
@19: Rough translation from the Yiddish: "Oh woe, dicks, oh woe."
It sounds better untranslated.
@21: Israel contains (relatively few) people who are somewhat paranoid, overly nationalistic, and generally turn into raging war-addicted assholes when Palestinian Arabs are involved. (These are the settlers you hear about.) Sadly, they tend to hold the reins of government and control public opinion.
@16: You need to stick your head in a bucket of ice water, pinch your arm, and slap yourself in the face.
Now that you're awake, go do some research on the issues, and stop blaming us for Christianity.
@19: Rough translation from the Yiddish: "Oh woe, dicks, oh woe."
It sounds better untranslated.
@21: Israel contains (relatively few) people who are somewhat paranoid, overly nationalistic, and generally turn into raging war-addicted assholes when Palestinian Arabs are involved. (These are the settlers you hear about.) Sadly, they tend to hold the reins of government and control public opinion.
24
@ 23 - I'm very, very much aware of that situation. I'm a rather well-informed individual. I just didn't harp on about it because, to quote myself, I didn't want "to lead the debate in another direction". I'm also aware that those are probably the same kind of Jews who complained to the Standard of their pain and consternation about the gay marriage announcement : intolerant ones.
Still, Palestinians ARE being persecuted and discriminated against. By Jews. Which goes against the principle that Jews are "not truly free until everyone is free" mentioned @ 18, to which I responded. And for that, I asked that we don't take an "all-Jews-are-way-better-than-others" stance, because it's just not true. That is all.
So I don't actually understand why you needed to comment. I didn't even broach any other part of the story which could actually lead to debate. I didn't want to take the focus away from what the people commenting on the Standard's website are doing, which is admirable.
Still, Palestinians ARE being persecuted and discriminated against. By Jews. Which goes against the principle that Jews are "not truly free until everyone is free" mentioned @ 18, to which I responded. And for that, I asked that we don't take an "all-Jews-are-way-better-than-others" stance, because it's just not true. That is all.
So I don't actually understand why you needed to comment. I didn't even broach any other part of the story which could actually lead to debate. I didn't want to take the focus away from what the people commenting on the Standard's website are doing, which is admirable.
25
@24: Agreed, I suppose. I just wanted to provide a little more information so that we don't end up on an Israel-Palestine Shitstorm in the comments. Cool beans.
27
I had to read all of the comments, and out of the 100 posted so far (yes, I counted them), there was only ONE in support of the newspaper's decision. That's enough to give me a (temporary) sense of hope!
Quite surprisingly, the "offensive" announcement is still on their website.
Quite surprisingly, the "offensive" announcement is still on their website.
28
>@21: "Israel contains (relatively few) people who are somewhat paranoid, overly nationalistic, and generally turn into raging war-addicted assholes when Palestinian Arabs are involved."
They're not just in Israel and they might be "relatively few" but that relies on some weasel wording.
I'd say the relatively high educational level in the Jewish community is probably what we're seeing on display here.
They're not just in Israel and they might be "relatively few" but that relies on some weasel wording.
I'd say the relatively high educational level in the Jewish community is probably what we're seeing on display here.
29
Venomlash, schmuck means "dick" huh? Wow, I thought the translatation was closer to douchebag prick than dick. So when someone says "mazel tov schmuck", it really means "good luck dick" instead of "good luck with that you fucking douchebag prick"? My bad, Yiddish is harder than I thought. Shalom dude. I better stick to reading it and not try to write it from now on.
30
It seems like every religion and culture has it's blindspots, but then again so does every individual. It's nice to see backlash against bigotry in any forum.
Shalom :)
Shalom :)
31
From Wikipedia: "The Online Etymology Dictionary derives [schmuck] from the Polish word smok for dragon, as a euphemism for 'penis'."
I suppose "prick" would be a better translation.
I suppose "prick" would be a better translation.
33
@23 I know this much. The old testament with all it's Deuteronomy and Leviticus is Jewish. That's enough for me.
34
Just about my favorite of all the great comments: "I think you need to change the name of your newspaper to “The Jewish Double Standard”..."
36
Amazing. Dozens and dozes of comments on that newspaper's web site and every single one is against the editorial board's decision to discriminate. (Well, maybe all but one -- comment 127 might be in support of it -- and of banning ads of non-kosher restaurants too -- but I suspect it's snark.)
37
@21 I'm not saying that Jews are better than other people, at all. Nor am I saying that all Jews are totally tolerant and wonderful all the time (which would be a ridiculous statement of any group).
I'm also well aware that the whole Israel/Palestine situation is an enormous mess, and I have no idea what to do about it, so that's not what I'm talking about here.
I'm just saying that some Jews, like me, consider the fight for others' civil rights central to our religious expression, and that I think that's really neat.
I'm not saying that all Jews everywhere (myself included) live up to that ideal. However, it's a really cool ideal, isn't it? and it sounds like the commenters are striving to stand up for the rights of gay people in their community, and I appreciate them for it. That's more what I meant.
I'm also well aware that the whole Israel/Palestine situation is an enormous mess, and I have no idea what to do about it, so that's not what I'm talking about here.
I'm just saying that some Jews, like me, consider the fight for others' civil rights central to our religious expression, and that I think that's really neat.
I'm not saying that all Jews everywhere (myself included) live up to that ideal. However, it's a really cool ideal, isn't it? and it sounds like the commenters are striving to stand up for the rights of gay people in their community, and I appreciate them for it. That's more what I meant.
38
@ 37 - I'm terribly sorry, I didn't mean to imply that YOU had that attitude, but the general tone of the comments seemed to be "hey, we've been bitching a lot about the christians lately, and look how cool the jews are!" I was merely using your statement as a starting point to curb people's enthusiasm.
The truth is, if anyone taught me that all discrimination is wrong when I was a child (early 70's), it's a Jewish film producer/director, Stanley Kramer. His movies ran on the TV all the time in those days, and since there was little ethnic variation in my hometown, I wasn't truly exposed to the evil of discrimination until I saw them.
They seem quaint, nowadays, but when Sidney Poitier accepted his honorary Oscar a few years back (it's on YouTube), he made a point of thanking him and all the others who were in a position to fight discrimination with their art, and who did, when Blacks were not in such a position. A lot of them were Jewish. I guess they were applying what you said.
I just wish Israel was a good example of that, but unfortunately, it's not... and I think it's important that we don't forget it.
The truth is, if anyone taught me that all discrimination is wrong when I was a child (early 70's), it's a Jewish film producer/director, Stanley Kramer. His movies ran on the TV all the time in those days, and since there was little ethnic variation in my hometown, I wasn't truly exposed to the evil of discrimination until I saw them.
They seem quaint, nowadays, but when Sidney Poitier accepted his honorary Oscar a few years back (it's on YouTube), he made a point of thanking him and all the others who were in a position to fight discrimination with their art, and who did, when Blacks were not in such a position. A lot of them were Jewish. I guess they were applying what you said.
I just wish Israel was a good example of that, but unfortunately, it's not... and I think it's important that we don't forget it.
39
From one of the comments on the Jewish Standard's decision:
"Maybe you can reach a compromise whereby same-sex Jewish engagement announcements are allowed, but only under the condition that the gay couple wear prominent pink triangles. "
"Maybe you can reach a compromise whereby same-sex Jewish engagement announcements are allowed, but only under the condition that the gay couple wear prominent pink triangles. "
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