Slog
News & ArtsSaturday, October 2, 2010
Homo Who Killed Tyler Clementi?
Posted by Dan Savage on Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 10:39 AM
He also hasn't committed suicide.
A mob mentality has set in. People—gay and straight, liberal and conservative—are calling for the heads of the two Rutgers students who cruelly and thoughtlessly invaded Tyler's privacy. Facing charges that could bring them fives years in prison isn't enough: people are calling for Dharun Ravi and Molly Wei to be charged with manslaughter, even murder. But the other boy didn't commit suicide. So there had to be something else going on, some other contributing factors, that drove Tyler to such a point of despair and hopelessness that he took his own life. And this one incident of anti-gay bullying, however traumatizing it may have been (and Tyler's emails and web posts immediately after indicate that he was upset, but not destroyed, by what his roommate had done), were not enough to do it. The other boy hasn't committed suicide. This one event did not take a healthy, well-adjusted, well-loved gay kid and convince him to throw himself off the George Washington Bridge.
I'm convinced that this—the cruelty of Tyler's roommate—was the last straw.
There are questions that need answers before we crucify Ravi and Wei: Was Tyler bullied in middle school? Was he bullied in high school? Was Tyler, like so many gay teenagers, bullied at home by homophobic parents who thought they could fix their son by heaping condemnation and disapproval on him, by abusing their child emotionally? Was Tyler forced to attend a church where he was subjected to spiritual bullying? Was he surrounded by children who took the hatred of homosexuals, as expressed by their parents and preachers, as a license to abuse and torment the gay kids in their schools?
The rush to crucify the two Rutgers students who were involved in streaming Tyler's encounter with another boy—who has not harmed himself—is more clearly revealed to be, with each passing day, nothing more than an effort to deflect blame by shifting all responsibility for Tyler's death onto the shoulders of a couple of foolish teenagers. But it is clear—the other boy did not commit suicide—that there were other people who contributed to Tyler's death. Indeed, other people may be more culpable: middle and high school classmates who may have brutalized Tyler for years; school administrators who may have failed to protect him; religious "leaders" and religious "traditions" that pounded self-hatred into him. And I'm very sorry to say this but it has to be said: Tyler's own family may bear some responsibility for his decision to end his life.
There needs to be a broader reckoning. We need answers. And things have to change. Anti-gay bigotry kills, and increasingly it kills kids—children who are vulnerable and alone and being bullied emotionally, physically, and spiritually. Chris Christie, the anti-gay governor of New Jersey, was quoted as saying that he can't imagine how the two students accused of secretly filming Clementi can sleep at night. I'm wondering how Christie sleeps at night—and Barack Obama. When the president says he opposes gay marriage because when it comes to marriage, "God is in the mix," that sends a harmful message to gay children and their parents and their classmates.
Tyler's roommate did not act alone. There are accomplices out there: uncaring teachers, criminally negligent school administrators, classmates who bullied and harassed Tyler, "Christian" churches and hate groups that warp some young minds and torment others, politicians on the right and left who exploit and perpetuate anti-gay prejudice, perhaps even Tyler's own family. We need to learn more. And more charges need to be brought. Not just criminal charges against a couple of stupid teenagers who should've known better but didn't. But ethical charges need to leveled against adults and institutions that knew better but didn't care.
Ravi and Wei did not act alone. We have to recognize that there were others involved in destroying Tyler Clementi. And we need to start calling the effort to pin all the blame on Ravi and Wei exactly what it is: a coverup.
1
According to information from Rutgers students elsewhere on the net, there was not another "Boy" with Tyler Clamenti that night.
There was an older man.
What is the likelihood that that man had been grooming Clementi since he was a young teenager?
And why is not more of the press asking this question?
Let's find out who this person was.
There was an older man.
What is the likelihood that that man had been grooming Clementi since he was a young teenager?
And why is not more of the press asking this question?
Let's find out who this person was.
2
Dan. as right as you have been about so much lately, I have to say you are wrong on this; let those two dangle.
Sure there are accomplices and mitigating factors but this is an opportunity to send a message about bullying (and what they did is so much more than bullying). If anyone ever deserved to be sacrificed for the sins of their culture it is these two.
Sure there are accomplices and mitigating factors but this is an opportunity to send a message about bullying (and what they did is so much more than bullying). If anyone ever deserved to be sacrificed for the sins of their culture it is these two.
3
Nice article Dan, but you may want to link to the other story. Having not been paying attention to Slog recently, I had no clue what this was in reference too.
Luckily it was in the most commented.
Luckily it was in the most commented.
4
This is spot-on, sir. My dad used to say that just because you can clean house quicker with a flamethrower doesn't mean you should.
5
I think you might be on to something, Dan. Tyler decided he'd rather die than be exposed as gay! This kid probably had it pretty bad for awhile before this incident.
6
I've been thinking similar thoughts.
I found it interesting that a friend of the guy who did the broadcasting said that he wasn't homophobic, that he would have done the same thing if it had been a girl.
The one word that kept being used about Tyler is that he was "shy." The facebook post that "outed" him ended with "yay." I can't shake the feeling that his roommate was happy that Tyler had an honest sexual experience. That his shyness was founded in our culture (and as you say probably his family) anti-gay bias, and his roommate was happy for him and "outed" him for his own good -- since he wasn't homophobic, he couldn't understand Tyler being in the closet. Wrong wrong wrong, but I can't help feeling like the roommate did what he did out of love for Tyler, not hatred.
Like you say, we need more information.
If I am right, we need to be kinder to those two college kids. They were stupid. And they will carry the price of Tyler's suicide the rest of their lives. I hope they can find some way to forgive themselves.
I found it interesting that a friend of the guy who did the broadcasting said that he wasn't homophobic, that he would have done the same thing if it had been a girl.
The one word that kept being used about Tyler is that he was "shy." The facebook post that "outed" him ended with "yay." I can't shake the feeling that his roommate was happy that Tyler had an honest sexual experience. That his shyness was founded in our culture (and as you say probably his family) anti-gay bias, and his roommate was happy for him and "outed" him for his own good -- since he wasn't homophobic, he couldn't understand Tyler being in the closet. Wrong wrong wrong, but I can't help feeling like the roommate did what he did out of love for Tyler, not hatred.
Like you say, we need more information.
If I am right, we need to be kinder to those two college kids. They were stupid. And they will carry the price of Tyler's suicide the rest of their lives. I hope they can find some way to forgive themselves.
7
You're right, Dan. Tyler was living in the land of Leviticus:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/10/2/….
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/10/2/….
8
The other male in the room hasn't been identified by name, age, or anything else beyond "older". Older could mean 19 or it could mean 59. Just for the sake of argument, how do we know that the other male wasn't part of the set-up? That would certainly explain why he hasn't physically harmed himself, although I don't see how he could possibly sleep at night, given what resulted from the circumstances.
9
I think you're absolutely right. It really didn't make sense--his posts weren't those of a kid devastated by this one act. He actually seemed to take it in stride. And yet... something else had to be going on. Putting those two other kids in jail won't "fix" this.
10
Dan, you've got some definite wisdom here.
That being said, the other boy was not "outed" at the same level as Tyler was he? I didn't see the video. Has anyone in the press? Was the other boy visible in a way that he could be identified if people didn't already know him? Were either of the boys' faces visible in the video?
Did Tyler's roommate know who the other boy was? To me, these are all facts material to Tyler's reaction vis a vis the other boy. It isn't just the fact of the unauthorized taping. It's the broadcast of his activities over the roommate's Twitter feed. "My roommate is in our room making out with a dude." Everyone on the hall (and probably in the dorm) can easily determine who the roommate making out with the dude is. The dude retains a bit more anonymity (at least in the short run). If Tyler doesn't kill himself, probably the whole thing fades. Maybe nobody ever is clear who he is, especially if he doesn't live in that dorm.
End result: The invasion against his privacy is not nearly as profound. He's more anonymous. He doesn't have to bear the guilt/shame that he brought another person into a space that was supposed to be safe and private (Tyler's room) and put this person in a position to have his privacy violated. If my roommate did that to me, I'd feel terrible and embarrassed for the exposure, but I'd also carry shame and guilt about bring my sex partner into that situation. I brought them to my room and this is what happened. I was betrayed by my roommate and in the process I betrayed my partner.
Is that perhaps an irrational feeling. Would/should my partner forgive me for something that was clearly outside my control? Yes. But in the moment, as one confronts the act of moving forward past the experience and dealing with the people, that's a lot to carry.
The other boy may well have been more healthy mentally from the start. But I think it's important to acknowledge that the other boy does not carry quite the same burden coming out of the experience. At least as I see it.
More...
That being said, the other boy was not "outed" at the same level as Tyler was he? I didn't see the video. Has anyone in the press? Was the other boy visible in a way that he could be identified if people didn't already know him? Were either of the boys' faces visible in the video?
Did Tyler's roommate know who the other boy was? To me, these are all facts material to Tyler's reaction vis a vis the other boy. It isn't just the fact of the unauthorized taping. It's the broadcast of his activities over the roommate's Twitter feed. "My roommate is in our room making out with a dude." Everyone on the hall (and probably in the dorm) can easily determine who the roommate making out with the dude is. The dude retains a bit more anonymity (at least in the short run). If Tyler doesn't kill himself, probably the whole thing fades. Maybe nobody ever is clear who he is, especially if he doesn't live in that dorm.
End result: The invasion against his privacy is not nearly as profound. He's more anonymous. He doesn't have to bear the guilt/shame that he brought another person into a space that was supposed to be safe and private (Tyler's room) and put this person in a position to have his privacy violated. If my roommate did that to me, I'd feel terrible and embarrassed for the exposure, but I'd also carry shame and guilt about bring my sex partner into that situation. I brought them to my room and this is what happened. I was betrayed by my roommate and in the process I betrayed my partner.
Is that perhaps an irrational feeling. Would/should my partner forgive me for something that was clearly outside my control? Yes. But in the moment, as one confronts the act of moving forward past the experience and dealing with the people, that's a lot to carry.
The other boy may well have been more healthy mentally from the start. But I think it's important to acknowledge that the other boy does not carry quite the same burden coming out of the experience. At least as I see it.
11
Seriously, thank you Dan. The urge to scapegoat and simplify issues of responsibility and blame is hard-wired into our species, and it takes a real effort of will to resist the impulse. I am NOT exonerating these two little bastards, mind. It's just that there had to be a fucking MOUNTAIN of self-loathing in that poor kid for this to be the last straw, and no, Ravi and Wei didn't create all that.
Just a usual DS ass-kissing post, I suppose, but really, this is an important point to make.
Just a usual DS ass-kissing post, I suppose, but really, this is an important point to make.
12
I think one big difference between the Clementi and the other guy in the video is that no one knew (or knows, except the other guy) who the other guy was. The roommate doing the filming and broadcasting made it very clear who Clementi was. Clementi was identified and clearly the one being targeted.
I agree with the call for looking at the whole situation: Clementi didn't complete suicide in a vacuum. Suicide is complicated, and other contributing factors are likely.
However, Clementi probably would not have completed suicide as he did if his roommates had not targeted him the way they did. When a crime is committed, the perpetrator is responsible for whatever harm they bring to the victim through the perpetrator's illegal/culpable action. If a perp assaults someone and the victim dies, it's murder (maybe manslaughter depending on the circumstances) even if the perp didn't set out to kill the victim. The perp caused the death of the victim. Culpability is not generally significantly reduced (maybe from murder to manslaughter in some cases) when some victims have preexisting vulnerabilities or ailments that may have made the victim more likely to die than others from equivalent assaults.
I agree with the call for looking at the whole situation: Clementi didn't complete suicide in a vacuum. Suicide is complicated, and other contributing factors are likely.
However, Clementi probably would not have completed suicide as he did if his roommates had not targeted him the way they did. When a crime is committed, the perpetrator is responsible for whatever harm they bring to the victim through the perpetrator's illegal/culpable action. If a perp assaults someone and the victim dies, it's murder (maybe manslaughter depending on the circumstances) even if the perp didn't set out to kill the victim. The perp caused the death of the victim. Culpability is not generally significantly reduced (maybe from murder to manslaughter in some cases) when some victims have preexisting vulnerabilities or ailments that may have made the victim more likely to die than others from equivalent assaults.
13
While I agree with you in principle - no public lynching, further investigation needs to happen, this was the straw that broke the camels back, etc. - I can't help but feel that our society, the one that produced two college students who somehow thought this behavior was ACCEPTABLE, will never change until the kind of outcry that has followed this incident becomes widespread.
This sort of "mob mentality" is going to make people think twice before they take actions similar to those taken by Ravi and Wei. What really pisses me off is that there hasn't been a similar INTERNATIONAL "mob" going after the school and football organization who failed to protect the male cheerleader whose arm was broken by bullies. Or the countless other school officials, parents, and teachers who have failed to protect the victims of bullying.
We need this kind of "mob mentality" more often - it is the only way these people are going to change their behavior. Laws and civility have been failing to change it for decades.
This sort of "mob mentality" is going to make people think twice before they take actions similar to those taken by Ravi and Wei. What really pisses me off is that there hasn't been a similar INTERNATIONAL "mob" going after the school and football organization who failed to protect the male cheerleader whose arm was broken by bullies. Or the countless other school officials, parents, and teachers who have failed to protect the victims of bullying.
We need this kind of "mob mentality" more often - it is the only way these people are going to change their behavior. Laws and civility have been failing to change it for decades.
14
@8 Are you serious? Part of a set up??? What reason would the other fella have to "physically hurt himself"? Girl, please. This other guy has probably been out for awhile.
This whole thing is pathetic and sad. Tyler overreacted. I feel for his roommates, who are going to have to deal with this forever.
This whole thing is pathetic and sad. Tyler overreacted. I feel for his roommates, who are going to have to deal with this forever.
15
Dan,
At least for now, maybe it would be a good idea to lay off the family? I have seen nothing about what they were like. It's certainly POSSIBLE that they weren't the loving, supportive family one would hope for, but I've really seen no clear evidence, one way or the other. Speculating about them seems particularly cruel.
The students who spied on Clementi are another story.
I agree that the students who spied on him and broadcast his sexual encounter without his permission are almost surely not the only cause of his suicide, but they are not just foolish teenagers.
I utterly loathe this tendency we have developed to infantilize young adults, even teenagers. Yes, yes, brain development continues into the 20s, but it doesn't take a tremendous amount of sophistication to understand that recording a person's intimate encounters--no matter whom they are with--without that person's consent is WRONG. It is unethical. It is immoral. Anyone with even a modicum of empathy would be able to grasp that he or she would not like to experience it and, therefore, he or she should not do it. We expect children to be able to grasp this level of basic reasoning and humanity, to have a sense of right and wrong and to act accordingly.
I want to see these students get at least SOME prison sentence, even if Clementi had not killed himself because, regardless of his response, their actions were malicious and inexcusable. I am so tired of hearing this wasn't really who they were, that they were good people, blah, blah, blah. This is what they DID. This IS who they are. Actions speak louder than words.
If they were mature enough and smart enough to get into college, they SHOULD have been able to use enough basic logic to foresee that someone would be hurt by this and if they had any decency, they should have not done it. And now they should be punished, not because of what Clementi did, but because of what they did.
More...
At least for now, maybe it would be a good idea to lay off the family? I have seen nothing about what they were like. It's certainly POSSIBLE that they weren't the loving, supportive family one would hope for, but I've really seen no clear evidence, one way or the other. Speculating about them seems particularly cruel.
The students who spied on Clementi are another story.
I agree that the students who spied on him and broadcast his sexual encounter without his permission are almost surely not the only cause of his suicide, but they are not just foolish teenagers.
I utterly loathe this tendency we have developed to infantilize young adults, even teenagers. Yes, yes, brain development continues into the 20s, but it doesn't take a tremendous amount of sophistication to understand that recording a person's intimate encounters--no matter whom they are with--without that person's consent is WRONG. It is unethical. It is immoral. Anyone with even a modicum of empathy would be able to grasp that he or she would not like to experience it and, therefore, he or she should not do it. We expect children to be able to grasp this level of basic reasoning and humanity, to have a sense of right and wrong and to act accordingly.
I want to see these students get at least SOME prison sentence, even if Clementi had not killed himself because, regardless of his response, their actions were malicious and inexcusable. I am so tired of hearing this wasn't really who they were, that they were good people, blah, blah, blah. This is what they DID. This IS who they are. Actions speak louder than words.
If they were mature enough and smart enough to get into college, they SHOULD have been able to use enough basic logic to foresee that someone would be hurt by this and if they had any decency, they should have not done it. And now they should be punished, not because of what Clementi did, but because of what they did.
16
@ 6 What? Your theory is that this guy broadcast his roommate having sex to out him for his own good, but that he would have done the same thing if it had been girl-boy sex? Really?
17
While I agree with you in principle - no public lynching, further investigation needs to happen, this was the straw that broke the camels back, etc. - I can't help but feel that our society, the one that produced two college students who somehow thought this behavior was ACCEPTABLE, will never change until the kind of outcry that has followed this incident becomes widespread.
I absolutely agree with this. I'd also point out that we have no idea what's happened to the other guy. For all we know he has killed himself, so let's not jump to conclusions.
I absolutely agree with this. I'd also point out that we have no idea what's happened to the other guy. For all we know he has killed himself, so let's not jump to conclusions.
18
Let me see if I understand this. The argument in this post and thread seems to be that Ravi and Wei were just the last in a long line of tormenters and it was just their dumb luck that they pushed Tyler over the edge, he was already so close that it was really not any more their fault than that bully in middle school. Just their timing was bad.
That is ridiculous. The magnitude of what they did is such that I would say regardless of the frequency with which we are seeing suicides lately that Tyler would still be alive and could be for along time, perhaps until old age, had it not been for these two.
After all isn't college where it is supposed to get better?
That is ridiculous. The magnitude of what they did is such that I would say regardless of the frequency with which we are seeing suicides lately that Tyler would still be alive and could be for along time, perhaps until old age, had it not been for these two.
After all isn't college where it is supposed to get better?
19
@18 Tyler overreacted, just like you are now.
I doubt tyler would've made it to old age. He killed himself over spilt milk. There are those of us that came out much younger, and in a much nastier culture. This was not that big of a deal. It's a tragedy, but it's mostly tyler's bad.
I doubt tyler would've made it to old age. He killed himself over spilt milk. There are those of us that came out much younger, and in a much nastier culture. This was not that big of a deal. It's a tragedy, but it's mostly tyler's bad.
21
Well said, Dan. The blame lies squarely in a society where shit like this piles up until one incident is enough to break a boy's will to live.
That said: these weren't ten-year-olds in the playground. They were in college, and old enough to fucking know better. I remember my mental processes at eighteen - and fifteen and twelve for that matter - and believe me, when I was being bitchy and manipulative, it was with full knowledge of my bitchiness and manipulation."They would have done it too if they could have!" is not an excuse a rational human being thinks to provide. They took advantage of what they thought was a society that would support their homophobia - and this mob response is precisely what will deter the next three idiots who get this bright idea after too many drinks at the pub.
Also, @6 - dude, that's a leap of logic you must have needed seven-league boots for. WTF?
That said: these weren't ten-year-olds in the playground. They were in college, and old enough to fucking know better. I remember my mental processes at eighteen - and fifteen and twelve for that matter - and believe me, when I was being bitchy and manipulative, it was with full knowledge of my bitchiness and manipulation."They would have done it too if they could have!" is not an excuse a rational human being thinks to provide. They took advantage of what they thought was a society that would support their homophobia - and this mob response is precisely what will deter the next three idiots who get this bright idea after too many drinks at the pub.
Also, @6 - dude, that's a leap of logic you must have needed seven-league boots for. WTF?
22
@12: You're only responsible for the reasonably foreseeable consequences of your actions. I have seen no evidence to indicate that the two students could reasonably foresee that this young man would react to what they did by jumping off the GWB.
Should they be punished for what they did? Absolutely. But treating assholes as if they're murderers isn't just.
Should they be punished for what they did? Absolutely. But treating assholes as if they're murderers isn't just.
23
Finally, a voice of reason. If Tyler had been with a girl and he committed suicide what would be done? What made it in Tyler's mind that being gay was worse than being dead. His roommate did not cause that in the three weeks they knew each other. If the roommate knew he was gay and told the entire campus, then Tyler killed himself, would the roommate be charged with a crime? Outting is NOT a crime. Broadcasting his sexual exploits was wrong, and should be punished, but an 18 year old using bad judgment by broadcasting is the same as an 18 year old using bad judgment by taking his own life for being known as gay.
Finally, what if the outting was not the cause of him jumping? Maybe the pressure of college, being expected to be the perfect son, and musician, maybe it was clinical depression?
Finally, what if the outting was not the cause of him jumping? Maybe the pressure of college, being expected to be the perfect son, and musician, maybe it was clinical depression?
24
Finally, a voice of reason. If Tyler had been with a girl and he committed suicide what would be done? What made it in Tyler's mind that being gay was worse than being dead. His roommate did not cause that in the three weeks they knew each other. If the roommate knew he was gay and told the entire campus, then Tyler killed himself, would the roommate be charged with a crime? Outting is NOT a crime. Broadcasting his sexual exploits was wrong, and should be punished, but an 18 year old using bad judgment by broadcasting is the same as an 18 year old using bad judgment by taking his own life for being known as gay.
Finally, what if the outting was not the cause of him jumping? Maybe the pressure of college, being expected to be the perfect son, and musician, maybe it was clinical depression?
Finally, what if the outting was not the cause of him jumping? Maybe the pressure of college, being expected to be the perfect son, and musician, maybe it was clinical depression?
25
@19 - what the fuck. THe general culture might be healthier, but that doesn't mean that there aren't ugly pockets of homophobia and hate. I suppose people should stop getting depressed over their finances, now the recession's over, too?
26
Is it possible he was in love with the other guy? And after they were outed, the other guy dumped him?
27
Haven't read the other comments so apologies if this is redundant: Dan is right, right, right. This is a bigger problem than two criminally asshole roommates.
And to take it further: Homophobic culture makes people sick, stupid and dangerous. It's toxic. It would be good to eradicate the disease without killing the hosts.
Not that pummeling a few bigots wouldn't make us feel better...
And to take it further: Homophobic culture makes people sick, stupid and dangerous. It's toxic. It would be good to eradicate the disease without killing the hosts.
Not that pummeling a few bigots wouldn't make us feel better...
28
My impression from what I have read is that suicide is driven by two things - impulsivity and depression. Impulsivity might well explain why suicide is more common in adolescence since the frontal lobe is (on average) the last part of the brain to mature.
Logically, if you look at all the LGBT people in the country and compare the fraction who have been brutalized in some way and fraction of those that commit suicide in adolescence, it can't just be the environment that is causing the problem. Not all LGBT adolescents are alike - some have greater resilience, some are more impulsive, some are mentally ill.
The video broadcasting sounds like a crime of stupidity, committed by some kids who probably have their own difficulties with impulse control. Unfortunately, once you are over 18, the consequences can be pretty bad.
Logically, if you look at all the LGBT people in the country and compare the fraction who have been brutalized in some way and fraction of those that commit suicide in adolescence, it can't just be the environment that is causing the problem. Not all LGBT adolescents are alike - some have greater resilience, some are more impulsive, some are mentally ill.
The video broadcasting sounds like a crime of stupidity, committed by some kids who probably have their own difficulties with impulse control. Unfortunately, once you are over 18, the consequences can be pretty bad.
29
@6 - that "yay" could have meant anything. I took it to mean, "Yay, I finally caught him on video."
30
The two students have been properly charged and should receive the maximum penalty. Video voyeurism should not be tolerated and a clear message to that effect should be sent. Some states require voyeurs to register as sex offenders. Would definitely support that requirement in this case so that any future roommates, love interests, or neighbors can be aware of this possible behavior on their part.
They could not have reasonably predicted that suicide would be the outcome so manslaughter charges wouldn't be appropriate. However if I were on a civil jury hearing a case brought by Tyler's parents against the two students, I would agree they have some culpability.
They could not have reasonably predicted that suicide would be the outcome so manslaughter charges wouldn't be appropriate. However if I were on a civil jury hearing a case brought by Tyler's parents against the two students, I would agree they have some culpability.
31
Generally I think Dan has a valid point. They may not be responsible for Tyler's suicide or not solely responsible. That said, the action that they DID do is most definitely an illegal act that is punishable by law whether or not the suicide was a foreseeable act or not and therefore they should be prosecuted and not given a pass as if it was some harmless teenage prank. And all those societal factors that may have led to Tyler's suicide can also be turned around at Ravi and Pei to show how easily permission is granted to students to sensationalize the fact that this wasn't just a viewing of his roommate's sexual encounter but one where he tweeted "and he's with a dude, Yay!" I remember how afraid I was when I went to college at first that all the bullying and abuse that I suffered in HS was going to continue in college and that I would never escape it. So yes, there are probably a lot of factors involved in Tyler's suicide, but the "final straw" was an illegal act let's not forget. And the fact that the other man (described in the school paper as a "strange, older man" (huh?) didn't kill himself has absolutely no bearing on Tyler's decision and shouldn't be held up as if to say "see, it wasn't so bad." Different people react differently. Unfortunately and tragically Tyler?s reaction was ultimate and final.
32
Yeah, this hasn't been sitting well with me either. The video stream was skype, not a free porn site. Worse than hiding in someone's closet, but not a lot worse, although the public invite on twitter does change the game.
Still, Tylers posts make it sound like other than the spying, he got along with his roommate well enough, and wasn't feeling harassed by him.
So who was making his life so miserable he had to end it? Someone's guilty, and I don't think the roommate and the girl down the hall deserve all the credit.
Still, Tylers posts make it sound like other than the spying, he got along with his roommate well enough, and wasn't feeling harassed by him.
So who was making his life so miserable he had to end it? Someone's guilty, and I don't think the roommate and the girl down the hall deserve all the credit.
33
Oy. This is complicated, and I think a lot of the claims here are off-base.
The fact that the other boy (or man) didn't commit suicide means nothing. If half the prisoners at Guantanamo committed suicide, would we say the torture was not a primary cause because half of them didn't?
The perpetrators should not be considered murderers, but their actions should be taken very seriously as the immediate cause of what happened. Holding them responsible is not a cover-up for all the other bad things that happened in Tyler's past.
And finally: Dan? Get some sleep.
The fact that the other boy (or man) didn't commit suicide means nothing. If half the prisoners at Guantanamo committed suicide, would we say the torture was not a primary cause because half of them didn't?
The perpetrators should not be considered murderers, but their actions should be taken very seriously as the immediate cause of what happened. Holding them responsible is not a cover-up for all the other bad things that happened in Tyler's past.
And finally: Dan? Get some sleep.
34
Throwing blame around doesn't do any good - it won't bring Tyler back, and it certainly doesn't help other kids in his position. As long as people are condemned and judged based entirely on their sexual preference this kind of thing is going to happen. If you need to point a finger at something, point it at a society which places a premium value on the outdated notion that says a true and abiding love can only exist between a man and a woman.
35
Eh, I don't know about this . . .
While I agree 100% that the people who condemn homosexuality contributed to this young man's death even if they never met him (by contributing to an society that tells gay kids they are evil for being gay), but . . .
I was sexually abused by my father. I suffered from severe depression, PTSD, and cyclothymia. I was suicidal for many years. My sister had a psychotic break, but she was not suicidal (or at least not to the degree that I was). Two people can have very different reactions to the same event, even they were in similar circumstances (like my sister and I were).
While I agree 100% that the people who condemn homosexuality contributed to this young man's death even if they never met him (by contributing to an society that tells gay kids they are evil for being gay), but . . .
I was sexually abused by my father. I suffered from severe depression, PTSD, and cyclothymia. I was suicidal for many years. My sister had a psychotic break, but she was not suicidal (or at least not to the degree that I was). Two people can have very different reactions to the same event, even they were in similar circumstances (like my sister and I were).
37
@6 here, the person who thought that the broadcast might have not been based in homophobia.
And yeah, I do think, given how shy Tyler was, his roommate would have broadcast him with a woman.
If you really let in the idea that his roommate WAS NOT AT ALL HOMOPHOBIC, then you have to come up with another reason for why he broadcast the encounter.
And really, that is behind all these comments here -- you are all assuming that the roommate was homophobic.
He could have been a stupid teenager who, having been brought up in a video world with a new view of personal boundaries, made a huge huge mistake.
As I said originally -- and as Dan said -- we need more information.
I personally think it is possible that the roommate wasn't homophobic. Who thought it was no big deal that Tyler was kissing a guy.
Call me naive. That is the world I hope we get to -- that is no big deal when two guys kiss.
And it is a happy day, when a shy person, away from home for the first time, starts to blossom into the fullness of his being.
Isn't that what we hear over and over and over again in these It Gets Better videos? Wait until you get to college! Things are different there!
Ravi was a jerk and invasive.
He may also not have been homophobic.
Let's find out before we crucify him, shall we?
And yeah, I do think, given how shy Tyler was, his roommate would have broadcast him with a woman.
If you really let in the idea that his roommate WAS NOT AT ALL HOMOPHOBIC, then you have to come up with another reason for why he broadcast the encounter.
And really, that is behind all these comments here -- you are all assuming that the roommate was homophobic.
He could have been a stupid teenager who, having been brought up in a video world with a new view of personal boundaries, made a huge huge mistake.
As I said originally -- and as Dan said -- we need more information.
I personally think it is possible that the roommate wasn't homophobic. Who thought it was no big deal that Tyler was kissing a guy.
Call me naive. That is the world I hope we get to -- that is no big deal when two guys kiss.
And it is a happy day, when a shy person, away from home for the first time, starts to blossom into the fullness of his being.
Isn't that what we hear over and over and over again in these It Gets Better videos? Wait until you get to college! Things are different there!
Ravi was a jerk and invasive.
He may also not have been homophobic.
Let's find out before we crucify him, shall we?
38
@wingedkat
I read the posts by Tyler too and I came to a much different conclusion than you. He was applying to get his room changed so he could get away from his roommate although he was concerned, both, that his new roommate would be worse or that he would be refused the permission to move at all. The posts do sound less than frantic, not obviously suicidal, but typing a few lines on an anonymous posting site could possibly come off as less serious than they truly are. Could it be he was practiced in pretending that everything was alright? I was in HS and early in college (with family and friends) but it just isn't sustainable.
I read the posts by Tyler too and I came to a much different conclusion than you. He was applying to get his room changed so he could get away from his roommate although he was concerned, both, that his new roommate would be worse or that he would be refused the permission to move at all. The posts do sound less than frantic, not obviously suicidal, but typing a few lines on an anonymous posting site could possibly come off as less serious than they truly are. Could it be he was practiced in pretending that everything was alright? I was in HS and early in college (with family and friends) but it just isn't sustainable.
39
@18 When I first heard about this, my initial reaction was to condemn the roommate as a homophobic bully. As more information has come out about Ravi and Wei (gay friends defending them, etc) I've had to acknowledge that another possibility in this case is "criminally stupid". I guess that's what courts are for.
Having a private sex scene streamed on skype is not nearly as terrible as it could have been. Unfortunately, this won't be the first or last case of unauthorized video or photo being shared with strangers or friends online. Most of us live through it and learn to watch for webcams. Heck, there have been SCHOOLS spying on their students this way, and they aren't being prosecuted.
This sort of spying is wrong and invasive and hopefully illegal, but it isn't murder.
Having a private sex scene streamed on skype is not nearly as terrible as it could have been. Unfortunately, this won't be the first or last case of unauthorized video or photo being shared with strangers or friends online. Most of us live through it and learn to watch for webcams. Heck, there have been SCHOOLS spying on their students this way, and they aren't being prosecuted.
This sort of spying is wrong and invasive and hopefully illegal, but it isn't murder.
40
There is a video on boxturtlebulletin.com of Tyler Clementi playing violin in church. On that video the church is identified as "Grace Church" in Ridgewood NJ. Its website is here: http://www.gracechurchnj.net/. The website describes the Bible as: "the only perfect guide for how to live and what to believe". I'm betting this was a pretty homophobic church
41
I can't bring myself to be anything more than sad at the tragic end of this beautiful, sensitive boy's life. Being angry at the two dorm-mates doesn't even factor in right now. As I like to say, they were just the cherry on the top of a shit sundae.
42
There are too many very sad issues and factors here to tease out cause and effect. The one clear message was written earlier by s.n.c (#15),
"it doesn't take a tremendous amount of sophistication to understand that recording a person's intimate encounters--no matter whom they are with--without that person's consent is WRONG. It is unethical. It is immoral. Anyone with even a modicum of empathy would be able to grasp that he or she would not like to experience it and, therefore, he or she should not do it.......... If they were mature enough and smart enough to get into college, they SHOULD have been able to use enough basic logic to foresee that someone would be hurt..."
Something is very wrong in our culture that inures these young people to the effects of their disgustingly insensitive actions.
"it doesn't take a tremendous amount of sophistication to understand that recording a person's intimate encounters--no matter whom they are with--without that person's consent is WRONG. It is unethical. It is immoral. Anyone with even a modicum of empathy would be able to grasp that he or she would not like to experience it and, therefore, he or she should not do it.......... If they were mature enough and smart enough to get into college, they SHOULD have been able to use enough basic logic to foresee that someone would be hurt..."
Something is very wrong in our culture that inures these young people to the effects of their disgustingly insensitive actions.
43
@38: Then why did he feel the need to tweet to the effect that his roommate was making out with a "dude." Part of not being a dumbass is understanding that one's actions take place in a social/cultural context. Even if he wasn't filming the guy simply because he was gay, doing this to a straight couple and doing this to a gay couple doesn't have quite the same cultural resonance (stigmas or fallout). I don't think it's wrong to think that an 18 year old should appreciate that distinction.
Maybe someday this distinction will cease to be meaningful. That'll probably be a good day, when the story doesn't revolve around sexual orientation and it's just "my roommate is having sex in our room right now and I'm playing a prank by filming it and broadcasting it for people to see."
That's a prank with a pretty long history. Even back in the 1980s when I was in college there were stories about Frat brothers hiding in the closet of another brother's room and watching and videotaping that brother having sex with some girl. Then the brothers would watch the tapes together and award a brother the cocksman of the month award.
I have no idea if these stories were myth or fact. But if they were in people's imaginations, there's a good chance somebody was doing it. I'm sure the girls involved in this weren't too psyched if they found out it was happening. But pre-internet, how far can it go? It's college. Young heterosexuals have a lot of sex in college. Good clean horseplay, right? It's like something out of Porky's or American Pie.
But that doesn't absolve people from responsibility for understanding the implications of their actions. If you are 18 years old, you're old enough that you should get that, in our present cultural context, filming a man and a woman and filming a same sex couple isn't the same "prank," in terms of how the story may play after the fact. Do these folks deserve a manslaughter conviction? I'll leave that to the courts (probably it won't go that far). Do they deserve a harsh punishment? Yes, I think they do. Any punishment that doesn't involve at least some jail time will be a disappointment.
More...
Maybe someday this distinction will cease to be meaningful. That'll probably be a good day, when the story doesn't revolve around sexual orientation and it's just "my roommate is having sex in our room right now and I'm playing a prank by filming it and broadcasting it for people to see."
That's a prank with a pretty long history. Even back in the 1980s when I was in college there were stories about Frat brothers hiding in the closet of another brother's room and watching and videotaping that brother having sex with some girl. Then the brothers would watch the tapes together and award a brother the cocksman of the month award.
I have no idea if these stories were myth or fact. But if they were in people's imaginations, there's a good chance somebody was doing it. I'm sure the girls involved in this weren't too psyched if they found out it was happening. But pre-internet, how far can it go? It's college. Young heterosexuals have a lot of sex in college. Good clean horseplay, right? It's like something out of Porky's or American Pie.
But that doesn't absolve people from responsibility for understanding the implications of their actions. If you are 18 years old, you're old enough that you should get that, in our present cultural context, filming a man and a woman and filming a same sex couple isn't the same "prank," in terms of how the story may play after the fact. Do these folks deserve a manslaughter conviction? I'll leave that to the courts (probably it won't go that far). Do they deserve a harsh punishment? Yes, I think they do. Any punishment that doesn't involve at least some jail time will be a disappointment.
44
artistinNY @38
I agree, the postings from an anonymous site do not give much of a clue to his state of mind. When he wrote that other than the spying, Ravi was "ok", it could mean anything. Ravi could have simply never offered a threat of physical violence, and therefore been a nice change... or he could have been neutral or even supportive except for the spying.
We don't get to know. We're too far removed from the situation. There could be a pattern of harassment from Ravi, or it could be that Ravi was too naive to be aware of the pattern of harassment from other people and was just being college freshman stupid.
I agree, the postings from an anonymous site do not give much of a clue to his state of mind. When he wrote that other than the spying, Ravi was "ok", it could mean anything. Ravi could have simply never offered a threat of physical violence, and therefore been a nice change... or he could have been neutral or even supportive except for the spying.
We don't get to know. We're too far removed from the situation. There could be a pattern of harassment from Ravi, or it could be that Ravi was too naive to be aware of the pattern of harassment from other people and was just being college freshman stupid.
45
Parents should raise their children to be accepting and tolerant of all races, creeds and sexual orientation! I was raise by my widowed mother who taught us to treat all people as human beings! Everyone was a person and not a stereotype.
46
What these two did wrong was taping this guy having sex and publicizing it without his consent. Their actions aren't any more wrong or right based on the sex, sexual orientation or coping skills of the person they taped.
47
Wow. This article completely changed my mind on the subject. You are right. If Tyler had a support system of friends and family, instead of the more likely bullying and hatred, he wouldn't have jumped. Outing is traumatic for anyone, but there were some extenuating circumstances for Tyler that we don't know about.
48
Tragically, the inadequate suicide barriers on the GW Bridge probably share in the blame for Tyler's death. Research into the Golden Gate Bridge jumpers show that jumpers have a unique profile from other folks who commit suicide. Jumping is often a highly impulsive act. Unlike other folks who attempt suicide, jumpers usually have a lower incidence of drug and alcohol problems, prior suicide attempts, and diagnosed mental illness (excluding schizophrenia). Jumpers typically use this method because of its ease, speed, and certain death. An impulsive jumper can be thwarted by making it take more time and effort to actually jump. Of the Golden Gate jumpers who were stopped, one researcher found that years later only 6 % had committed suicide by another means. The figure only went 10% even when he included those who died from suspicious accidents that could have been suicides. So a full 90% got past whatever made them want to kill themselves.
The words of Kevin Hines one of the few people to survive a Golden Gate jump should be posted in numerous places on every bridge...
"I'll tell you what I can't get out of my head. It's watching my hands come off that railing and thinking to myself, My God, what have I just done? Because I know that almost everyone else who's gone off that bridge, they had that exact same thought at that moment. All of a sudden, they didn't want to die, but it was too late."
The words of Kevin Hines one of the few people to survive a Golden Gate jump should be posted in numerous places on every bridge...
"I'll tell you what I can't get out of my head. It's watching my hands come off that railing and thinking to myself, My God, what have I just done? Because I know that almost everyone else who's gone off that bridge, they had that exact same thought at that moment. All of a sudden, they didn't want to die, but it was too late."
49
Sorry but I have to disagree with Dan here. Two people, even 2 gay men in the same room att he same school , aren't the same guy. Tyler couldn't handle being so cruelly tormented but the other guy could. The fact that the other guy is alive doesn't prove at ALL that the spying isn't what pushed Tyler over. Or maybe the other guy wasn't a Rutger's student as his anonymity is what saved him.
50
I'm #18's side.
I agree there's prob more to this and R and M's actions may well have been the straw that broke the camel's back. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be punished harshly.
Dan, you're becoming the Glenn Beck of the "progressives."
I find #39's comment absolutely stunning:
"Having a private sex scene streamed on skype is not nearly as terrible as it could have been."
Then I hope you're the only kind of person it happens to! I can understand a heterosexual having their sex encounters broadcast live being a reason why they'd kill themselves.
"Most of us live through it and learn to watch for webcams."
Glad we're not friends. I would never be able to visit your house or feel safe around you.
"Heck, there have been SCHOOLS spying on their students this way, and they aren't being prosecuted."
Perhaps they should be.
I agree there's prob more to this and R and M's actions may well have been the straw that broke the camel's back. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be punished harshly.
Dan, you're becoming the Glenn Beck of the "progressives."
I find #39's comment absolutely stunning:
"Having a private sex scene streamed on skype is not nearly as terrible as it could have been."
Then I hope you're the only kind of person it happens to! I can understand a heterosexual having their sex encounters broadcast live being a reason why they'd kill themselves.
"Most of us live through it and learn to watch for webcams."
Glad we're not friends. I would never be able to visit your house or feel safe around you.
"Heck, there have been SCHOOLS spying on their students this way, and they aren't being prosecuted."
Perhaps they should be.
51
the fact that the other person being videotaped did not kill himself means absolutely nothing.
this is typical Dan "logic." can't you go back to just patting yourself on the back for the "it gets better" videos and stop trying to think?
this is typical Dan "logic." can't you go back to just patting yourself on the back for the "it gets better" videos and stop trying to think?
52
My sister went to Juilliard, and I can say that a LOT of her classmates seemed pretty depressed. There's so little support for serious music in this country that the few who champion it face incredible odds. Classical music students are practicing 8-10 hours a day if they want to make it, and the competition is horrendous. Seriously, how many new classical violinists or pianists do you know of each year...1? 0? The one who wins the Tschaikovsky competition every 4 years? Nobody would claim that you can be a great actor without having studied Shakespeare, but many seem to think that you can understand great music without ever having studied Mozart. American society is as passionately anti-intellectual as it is anti-gay (Even in the Stranger, the coverage is almost all rock, rarely classical). The point here is that we don't know how Mr. Clementi's career was going...(maybe he felt especial pressure to live up to his family name). A lot of musicians who were the most gifted in their high school don't realize the odds against their chosen career until they get to college.
53
I agree, DS. I agree that this story is incomplete. What Ravi and Wei did was wrong; there are laws and university rules that will determine their fates for their actions. They played a part and it was probably, as you say, the last straw. However, something else - or a culmination of events - made Clementi snap. One article I read (could be wrong) had him at the cafeteria around 6:30 on the evening he killed himself. Why go to dinner if he's planning his death? Perhaps intimidation or bullying occurred to him in the interim as a result of being outed or even just because he was perceived as gay regardless of who knew about the video. Yes, Ravi and Wei need to be held accountable for their part. But there are more guilty parties here. At that age, before I was out, it was terrifyig to think of my family discovering my sexuality without my ability to do damage control. A shy kid who is financially dependent on his strict parents... I understand his turmoil. The bullying debate is part of the dialogue here to help staunch the loss of life that we're seeing. Hopefully, there will be attention to what can culminate over time in schools, churches, and homes. In addition, there are parties who need to be called out for their complicity.
55
We do need more information. It's possible that this really was the last indignity piled on a lot of prior suffering and abuse. That does not excuse the perps, for what they did was appalling, but it might give more understanding of Tyler's state of mind. And we don't know what this particular night meant to Tyler. Maybe this was the night he had carefully arranged to lose his virginity with a guy he really liked. To have THAT night of all nights blow up in his face would be devastating.
BTW, from 9 up there, the fact that in his posts Tyler seemed to "take it in stride" at first means nothing. An emotional shock this big can produce numbness at first, as a defense mechanism, with the full horror taking hours or days to sink in.
BTW, from 9 up there, the fact that in his posts Tyler seemed to "take it in stride" at first means nothing. An emotional shock this big can produce numbness at first, as a defense mechanism, with the full horror taking hours or days to sink in.
56
Another thought, regarding Dan's It Gets Better Project. (I've posted my video. Have you?)
The whole thesis is that once you get out of high school and into college, you leave that homophobic harassment behind. If Tyler was bullied in high school, he might have felt profound relief at moving into the Rutgers dorm, with all that behind him. To find that it was not behind him, that his own roommate had engineered his humiliation on an epic scale, well.....
God damn, this hurts.
The whole thesis is that once you get out of high school and into college, you leave that homophobic harassment behind. If Tyler was bullied in high school, he might have felt profound relief at moving into the Rutgers dorm, with all that behind him. To find that it was not behind him, that his own roommate had engineered his humiliation on an epic scale, well.....
God damn, this hurts.
58
I think this is the first time I've really disagreed with you, Dan. I think your logic is bad. We simply do not know what caused Tyler's suicide. Period. What we do know was what his roommate did was both morally reprehensible and criminal. But we don't know if it was causal. And honestly, do you want to go to the place where any bullying (and we don't know if there was any) is the same thing as being criminally negligent in a suicide? Because that is a train that will run off the tracks in about .02 seconds. Yes, the threat might help protect some gay kids, and I want nothing more than that, but it's not good social or political policy.
The long and short is that we have to find ways to get LGBT kids safe in school without threatening jail time for anyone that makes fun of them.
And just to add, as an educator, it is a heck of a lot harder to protect kids than non-educators think. It doesn't mean we don't care. I care. I care a lot. But I'm a teacher, not a miracle worker. If I could magically sow the seeds of human kindness and stop kids from being cruel to each other, don't you think I would do that? Now, maybe Tyler's teachers wouldn't, but before you throw around those kind of assumptions, try to have some facts to back them up.
The long and short is that we have to find ways to get LGBT kids safe in school without threatening jail time for anyone that makes fun of them.
And just to add, as an educator, it is a heck of a lot harder to protect kids than non-educators think. It doesn't mean we don't care. I care. I care a lot. But I'm a teacher, not a miracle worker. If I could magically sow the seeds of human kindness and stop kids from being cruel to each other, don't you think I would do that? Now, maybe Tyler's teachers wouldn't, but before you throw around those kind of assumptions, try to have some facts to back them up.
59
Oh my god. I can't believe I forgot about this stupid movie:
"THE VIRGINITY HIT movie - a comedy about three pals documenting the progress of their socially-awkward friend, who tries desperately to lose his virginity."
This whole thing is the plot of this movie -- except Tyler is gay.
I stand by what I have been saying -- this isn't a case of homophobia bullying.
I would bet $5 it isn't homophobia -- and I only bet a $1 when I am very very sure of something.
It is a case of stupid college "pranks" that aren't funny. Whether you are straight or gay.
Which goes back to Dan's original post. That it was what happened to Tyler before that night that led him to jump.
We need more information.
"THE VIRGINITY HIT movie - a comedy about three pals documenting the progress of their socially-awkward friend, who tries desperately to lose his virginity."
This whole thing is the plot of this movie -- except Tyler is gay.
I stand by what I have been saying -- this isn't a case of homophobia bullying.
I would bet $5 it isn't homophobia -- and I only bet a $1 when I am very very sure of something.
It is a case of stupid college "pranks" that aren't funny. Whether you are straight or gay.
Which goes back to Dan's original post. That it was what happened to Tyler before that night that led him to jump.
We need more information.
60
You're starting to sound like Glenn Beck now. This project is a good thing, but you need to get a little distance. For all we know maybe the guy's parents were hugely supportive--do you want to foment rage with baseless accusations? I know you are trying to make a larger point, but REAL PEOPLE are involved here, so kindly STFU. And the non-suicidal guy wasn't outed by the tape, as you point out.
61
While clearly there were other issues at hand contributing to this young mans suicide ( mainly the widespread homophobia in American society), and I agree that we must not leap to mob mentality, I don't think that Ravi and Wei should necessarily be absolved of a majority of the responsibility. You never know what is going to be the straw that breaks the camels back, and obviously outing someone in that magnitude is a HUGE thing to do, and also illegal. If someone is drenched in gasoline and someone else comes along and throws a match, it doesn't mean that they should be cleared of most of the responsibility for the person bursting into flames just because they were not the ones that poured the gas. The gas probably would have been significantly less harmful without the match. Also the bottom line is this is illegal, and at 18 and a Rutger's student, you pretty much know right from wrong. If a firefighter is driving while high on drugs and accidently kills a toddler, it's not going to matter how good a person he is or how many other kids he may have saved, what he was doing was still illegal and he should have to face the consequences for making a bad decision that he knew could potentially harm someone. Cause lets face it, who on this board would tape their shy roommate in a sexual situation and not think it was going to do some kind of damage? I don't care how well adjusted someone is, when you suddenly see your face plastered on the internet while getting it on something is going to go down.
62
Ravi and Wei's actions were in and of themselves reprehensible and deserve to be roundly and robustly condemned. In and of themselves. It's not "scapegoating" them to be utterly outraged at them and hold them accountable. That degree of calculated cruelty is shocking, and people are right to express outrage at it and at them.
63
Dan throws raw meat to the HomoLiberal HateMachine Lynch Mob-
"A gay freshman at Rutgers University is believed to have committed suicide—he may have jumped off a bridge, no body has been found—after his roommate outed him in THE MOST BRUTAL WAY POSSIBLE"
then innocently observes that "A mob mentality has set in. People are calling for the heads of the two Rutgers students..."
what a fuck.
"A gay freshman at Rutgers University is believed to have committed suicide—he may have jumped off a bridge, no body has been found—after his roommate outed him in THE MOST BRUTAL WAY POSSIBLE"
then innocently observes that "A mob mentality has set in. People are calling for the heads of the two Rutgers students..."
what a fuck.
64
"And this one incident of anti-gay bullying..."
And the proof that this incident was ANTI-GAY is just what again?
And the proof that this incident was ANTI-GAY is just what again?
65
A coverup.
Society ignoring what a deadly lifestyle homosexuality is,
how soul sucking it is,
how totally reamed out it leaves its victims,
how desperate and hopeless they become-
that's a story you will never hear.
IT'S A COVERUP......
Society ignoring what a deadly lifestyle homosexuality is,
how soul sucking it is,
how totally reamed out it leaves its victims,
how desperate and hopeless they become-
that's a story you will never hear.
IT'S A COVERUP......
66
"and Barack Obama. When the president says he opposes gay marriage because when it comes to marriage, "God is in the mix," that sends a harmful message to gay children and their parents and their classmates."
Obama is KILLING GAY CHILDREN!
now, Dan, do you agree with the rightwingnuts who ARE TRYING TO KILL OBAMA?
Dan on the Road to Damascus.....
Obama is KILLING GAY CHILDREN!
now, Dan, do you agree with the rightwingnuts who ARE TRYING TO KILL OBAMA?
Dan on the Road to Damascus.....
67
"There are accomplices out there: uncaring teachers, criminally negligent school administrators, classmates who bullied and harassed Tyler,... even Tyler's own family."
Dan, do you know ANY of Tyler's teachers?
Even one?
Dan, do you know ANY of Tyler's school administrators?
Even one?
Dan, do you know ANY of Tyler's elementary, middle or high school classmates?
Even one?
Dan, do you know anyone of Tyler's family?
ANYONE?
You make vicious accusations based on NOTHING.
You are a fetid smear of shit staining the American conversation.
Dan, do you know ANY of Tyler's teachers?
Even one?
Dan, do you know ANY of Tyler's school administrators?
Even one?
Dan, do you know ANY of Tyler's elementary, middle or high school classmates?
Even one?
Dan, do you know anyone of Tyler's family?
ANYONE?
You make vicious accusations based on NOTHING.
You are a fetid smear of shit staining the American conversation.
70
For the record, Barack Obama has never said he opposes gay marriage because "god is in the mix". He's said that he advocates civil unions over gay marriage because it's more achievable. And when asked to define marriage he talked about the religious/spiritual aspect of it. He hasn't ever linked the two, AFAIK.
71
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/rutge…
The distraught parents of the Rutgers freshman who committed suicide after his gay hookup was streamed live on the Internet broke their silence yesterday, saying they hope their son's death serves as a wake-up call.
"Regardless of legal outcomes, our hope is that our family's personal tragedy will serve as a call for compassion, empathy and human dignity," Joe and Jane Clementi said in a statement.
That emotional wish came as news broke that their son's roommate, Dharun Ravi, had outed Clementi as "gay" in an online posting a month before Ravi allegedly cyber-spied on Clementi's Sept. 19 make-out session.
Ravi's Twitter posting could help prosecutors charge him with bias crimes.
Clementi, 18, jumped off the George Washington Bridge on Sept. 22 after learning Ravi had remotely accessed a Web cam in their dorm room from the room of fellow freshman Molly Wei.
Ravi and Wei, both 18, were busted earlier this week on charges of invading Clementi's privacy, and the dead man's Ridgewood, NJ, family has received a massive wave of public sympathy.
"Needless to say, public attention has been intense," Clementi's family said in their statement. "The outpouring of emotion and support from our friends, community and family -- and from people across the country -- has been humbling and deeply moving."
Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/rutge…
The distraught parents of the Rutgers freshman who committed suicide after his gay hookup was streamed live on the Internet broke their silence yesterday, saying they hope their son's death serves as a wake-up call.
"Regardless of legal outcomes, our hope is that our family's personal tragedy will serve as a call for compassion, empathy and human dignity," Joe and Jane Clementi said in a statement.
That emotional wish came as news broke that their son's roommate, Dharun Ravi, had outed Clementi as "gay" in an online posting a month before Ravi allegedly cyber-spied on Clementi's Sept. 19 make-out session.
Ravi's Twitter posting could help prosecutors charge him with bias crimes.
Clementi, 18, jumped off the George Washington Bridge on Sept. 22 after learning Ravi had remotely accessed a Web cam in their dorm room from the room of fellow freshman Molly Wei.
Ravi and Wei, both 18, were busted earlier this week on charges of invading Clementi's privacy, and the dead man's Ridgewood, NJ, family has received a massive wave of public sympathy.
"Needless to say, public attention has been intense," Clementi's family said in their statement. "The outpouring of emotion and support from our friends, community and family -- and from people across the country -- has been humbling and deeply moving."
Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/rutge…
72
Once in college I made an audio recording of an amorouse couple, then played it back for them and everybody else in the dorm the next morning at breakfast. I didn't plant any hidden microphones, just put my tapedeck next to the ventilation duct in my room and pressed record. It was my cool way of saying this is what you people sound like two rooms over, could you keep it down a little next time? Anway, I can't blame the roomates to much. As college pranks go it was not that extreme.
Also @1 if Clementi's sex partner was some old chicken hawk who had been grooming him for the gay lifestyle why were they fooling around in a fucking dorm room. Cute little college boy twinks don't get naked for dirty old men like myself unless 'Daddy' pays for the hotel and roomservice.
Also @1 if Clementi's sex partner was some old chicken hawk who had been grooming him for the gay lifestyle why were they fooling around in a fucking dorm room. Cute little college boy twinks don't get naked for dirty old men like myself unless 'Daddy' pays for the hotel and roomservice.
73
@66
So you admit you and your ilk are trying to kill Obama. Wow.... Too bad ISP addresses can't be as snarky as anonymous 'names'.
So you admit you and your ilk are trying to kill Obama. Wow.... Too bad ISP addresses can't be as snarky as anonymous 'names'.
75
Sorry about that, trying to log in.
Here is the reason Tyler jumped: If you read the timeline very carefully (including all of Tyler's messages on JustUsBoys), there was a HUGE amount of time after he told both the R.A. and two Administrators about the sex spycam. Now think about it. If a woman had made such a report, the police would have entered the dorm with guns drawn five minutes later. Yet in Tyler's case, there was somewhere between 14-24hrs before he made that report and then committed suicide. I'm not talking about the change of roommate request form. I'm talking about when he reported the sex crime.
The reason the perpetrators felt so casual about tweeting and filming the encounters testifies to the homophobic environment in that dorm. Immediately after the suicide, some media were interviewing Tyler's dormates (before everyone clammed up). Those initial interviews always reflected a lot of homophobia. Some of the kids looked totally unfazed and were saying they knew Tyler was gay because of the way he looked. One girl in particular was extremely homophobic in her remarks. I really hope people don't go overboard in now downplaying the whole thing. No, Dharun and Molly are not murderers. But they sure as shit aren't innocent and were definitely homophobic. The R.A. and the Administrators need to be checked out very closely too. But the sad reality is that homophobia saturates the ether - so when a vicious death like this happens, the homophobia can also magically evaporate and hide. If there was just one courageous gay positive kid in that dorm who was willing to come forward with the real truth, we would be hearing a lot different story in the media.
Here is the reason Tyler jumped: If you read the timeline very carefully (including all of Tyler's messages on JustUsBoys), there was a HUGE amount of time after he told both the R.A. and two Administrators about the sex spycam. Now think about it. If a woman had made such a report, the police would have entered the dorm with guns drawn five minutes later. Yet in Tyler's case, there was somewhere between 14-24hrs before he made that report and then committed suicide. I'm not talking about the change of roommate request form. I'm talking about when he reported the sex crime.
The reason the perpetrators felt so casual about tweeting and filming the encounters testifies to the homophobic environment in that dorm. Immediately after the suicide, some media were interviewing Tyler's dormates (before everyone clammed up). Those initial interviews always reflected a lot of homophobia. Some of the kids looked totally unfazed and were saying they knew Tyler was gay because of the way he looked. One girl in particular was extremely homophobic in her remarks. I really hope people don't go overboard in now downplaying the whole thing. No, Dharun and Molly are not murderers. But they sure as shit aren't innocent and were definitely homophobic. The R.A. and the Administrators need to be checked out very closely too. But the sad reality is that homophobia saturates the ether - so when a vicious death like this happens, the homophobia can also magically evaporate and hide. If there was just one courageous gay positive kid in that dorm who was willing to come forward with the real truth, we would be hearing a lot different story in the media.
76
I'm late to this post and I have NOT read the comments. I am not promoting or condoning a mob mentality, nor am I trying to shift the blame for Tyler's death to someone else. But how far is too far? When do we start making people take responsibility for their actions? What is the difference between what Ravi and Wei did and the kids who taunted Billy or Seth or Cody or Asher? Are all of these kids just foolish teenagers and not really tormenters? At what point does being foolish become something more than that? If Tyler's family may bear some of the responsiblity, does that mean that Billy and Seth and Cody and Asher's family bear some responsibility for their deaths as well? Does that mean I'm partially to blame too? That would make you equally culpable Dan. This is some crazy shit right here.
77
"If Tyler's family may bear some of the responsiblity, does that mean that Billy and Seth and Cody and Asher's family bear some responsibility for their deaths as well?"
Most likely yes. In the case of Asher Brown, I first heard that he had told his stepfather he was gay and the father accepted him. But later I saw the mother and father on TV and could tell that didn't exactly happen. When the father was asked specifically about that, he said something like "I told him he would be ok". Hello? That is not embracing someone with acceptance. Later I did a Google and found out that the parents run some kind of Christian ministry (even though some reported he had been raised Buddhist). Remember, people that were not outright as hateful as Fred Phelps, are now going to blend in with the crowd and claim to have been non-judgmental and loving. The only people who really know are the silent witnesses to the pervasive homophobia around all these kids (tv news, preachers, etc). It's like a huge fog of homophobia and hard to pin down to just one cause.
Most likely yes. In the case of Asher Brown, I first heard that he had told his stepfather he was gay and the father accepted him. But later I saw the mother and father on TV and could tell that didn't exactly happen. When the father was asked specifically about that, he said something like "I told him he would be ok". Hello? That is not embracing someone with acceptance. Later I did a Google and found out that the parents run some kind of Christian ministry (even though some reported he had been raised Buddhist). Remember, people that were not outright as hateful as Fred Phelps, are now going to blend in with the crowd and claim to have been non-judgmental and loving. The only people who really know are the silent witnesses to the pervasive homophobia around all these kids (tv news, preachers, etc). It's like a huge fog of homophobia and hard to pin down to just one cause.
78
I think we shouldn't mix up two facts when we talk about this tragedy.
1.) Ravi and Wei broadcasted another person's sexual encounter
2.) Tyler was gay
Fact 1.) itself is a sin, no matter what sexuality the victims had and regardless of whether or not he/she has commit suicide.
And in the background of this internationally interested case (I'm Japanese who has known of this tragedy by Yahoo Japan), there's a fact that Tyler was gay.
Sex tape alone can kill people. I wonder if I were broadcasted naked and having sex, people commenting on it etc... Knowing it, I won't be able to go out anymore. It's a horrible experience regardless of sexuality.
But at the same time, he was gay.
I wonder if Ravi and Wei did the same if they found Tyler acting cozy.
If yes, they're totally a-hole, pervert and a sort of porn distributer.
But if they did because it was homosexual, what they did is another guilt.
Because in that case they might have thought the scene of gay roommate would attract others attention, and that's why they used twitter and facebook to build up an audience.
So, I think the fact of being broadcasted own sex life did kill Tyler, but I agree with Dan's principle in a way.
If it were the world where people don't make fun of LGBT or make sin of LGBT, those two students would've not come up with the idea of streaming, and Tyler would've not chosen the extreme way of sorrow.
And yes, there was another boy. He might have said something cruel with the anger upon noticing the exposure.
Or Tyler might have heard a rumor that he was afraid to get because of what his roommate had done.
Or he was afraid to be known by his parents.
In the back of any presumption for his motive of suicide, there's always the current circumstance against gay.
And we don't know much about his last 3 days.
So even though what the two idiots did to Tyler cocked the hammer, they are not necessarily the ones who pulled the trigger. Or the reverse.
Ravi and Wei should be punished, but more than accusing and digging into those two young students, we should take his death as a message to think of today's moral.
P.S. After I read the news in Japanese, I decided to read the American news source linked below of the article, then watch a streaming news where Dan was interviewed.
There I got to know his "it gets better project" which I found wonderful, then finally arrived here at The Stranger. This is the good part of internet.
More...
1.) Ravi and Wei broadcasted another person's sexual encounter
2.) Tyler was gay
Fact 1.) itself is a sin, no matter what sexuality the victims had and regardless of whether or not he/she has commit suicide.
And in the background of this internationally interested case (I'm Japanese who has known of this tragedy by Yahoo Japan), there's a fact that Tyler was gay.
Sex tape alone can kill people. I wonder if I were broadcasted naked and having sex, people commenting on it etc... Knowing it, I won't be able to go out anymore. It's a horrible experience regardless of sexuality.
But at the same time, he was gay.
I wonder if Ravi and Wei did the same if they found Tyler acting cozy.
If yes, they're totally a-hole, pervert and a sort of porn distributer.
But if they did because it was homosexual, what they did is another guilt.
Because in that case they might have thought the scene of gay roommate would attract others attention, and that's why they used twitter and facebook to build up an audience.
So, I think the fact of being broadcasted own sex life did kill Tyler, but I agree with Dan's principle in a way.
If it were the world where people don't make fun of LGBT or make sin of LGBT, those two students would've not come up with the idea of streaming, and Tyler would've not chosen the extreme way of sorrow.
And yes, there was another boy. He might have said something cruel with the anger upon noticing the exposure.
Or Tyler might have heard a rumor that he was afraid to get because of what his roommate had done.
Or he was afraid to be known by his parents.
In the back of any presumption for his motive of suicide, there's always the current circumstance against gay.
And we don't know much about his last 3 days.
So even though what the two idiots did to Tyler cocked the hammer, they are not necessarily the ones who pulled the trigger. Or the reverse.
Ravi and Wei should be punished, but more than accusing and digging into those two young students, we should take his death as a message to think of today's moral.
P.S. After I read the news in Japanese, I decided to read the American news source linked below of the article, then watch a streaming news where Dan was interviewed.
There I got to know his "it gets better project" which I found wonderful, then finally arrived here at The Stranger. This is the good part of internet.
79
@70 Come on. Marriage equality is a fact in several states, and it had already been a fact in Massachusetts for four years when Obama opposed it in the 2008 campaign. There are also religious groups that recognize marriage equality. Now I think it's crucial that we have a Democratic President to nominate justices to the U.S. Supreme Court, where I'm sure this will ultimately be decided, but do you really think it does no harm when President Obama sticks his fingers in his ears and ignores that reality by saying the following?:
http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2008/08/…
REV. WARREN: Define marriage.
SEN. OBAMA: I believe that marriage is the union between a man and a woman. (Applause.) Now, for me as a Christian, it's also a sacred union. You know, God's in the mix. (Applause.)
REV. WARREN: Would you support a constitutional amendment with that definition?
SEN. OBAMA: No, I would not.
REV. WARREN: Why not?
SEN. OBAMA: (Applause.) Because historically, we have not defined marriage in our Constitution. It's been a matter of state law that has been our tradition. Now, I mean, let's break it down. The reason that people think there needs to be a constitutional amendment, some people believe, is because of the concern about same-sex marriage. I am not somebody who promotes same-sex marriage, but I do believe in civil unions. I do believe that we should not -- that for gay partners to want to visit each other in a hospital, for the state to say, you know what, that's all right, I don't think in any way inhibits my core beliefs about what marriage are.
I think my faith is strong enough and my marriage is strong enough that I can afford those civil rights to others, even if I have a different perspective or a different view. (Applause.)
More...
http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2008/08/…
REV. WARREN: Define marriage.
SEN. OBAMA: I believe that marriage is the union between a man and a woman. (Applause.) Now, for me as a Christian, it's also a sacred union. You know, God's in the mix. (Applause.)
REV. WARREN: Would you support a constitutional amendment with that definition?
SEN. OBAMA: No, I would not.
REV. WARREN: Why not?
SEN. OBAMA: (Applause.) Because historically, we have not defined marriage in our Constitution. It's been a matter of state law that has been our tradition. Now, I mean, let's break it down. The reason that people think there needs to be a constitutional amendment, some people believe, is because of the concern about same-sex marriage. I am not somebody who promotes same-sex marriage, but I do believe in civil unions. I do believe that we should not -- that for gay partners to want to visit each other in a hospital, for the state to say, you know what, that's all right, I don't think in any way inhibits my core beliefs about what marriage are.
I think my faith is strong enough and my marriage is strong enough that I can afford those civil rights to others, even if I have a different perspective or a different view. (Applause.)
80
75
" Some of the kids looked totally unfazed and were saying they knew Tyler was gay because of the way he looked."
oh my....
and how often has Dan Savage and Slog brayed on about their Gaydar and some creep pastor?
" Some of the kids looked totally unfazed and were saying they knew Tyler was gay because of the way he looked."
oh my....
and how often has Dan Savage and Slog brayed on about their Gaydar and some creep pastor?
81
"Ravi and Wei did not act alone. We have to recognize that there were others involved in destroying Tyler Clementi. And we need to start calling the effort to pin all the blame on Ravi and Wei exactly what it is: A COVERUP."
"And like all coverups, culpability goes straight to the top."
"President Barack Obama is responsible for the death of Tyler Clementi and HUNDREDS of other Gay children."
"Obama is a MASS MURDERER."
"He Must Be STOPPED! By any means necessary....."
"And like all coverups, culpability goes straight to the top."
"President Barack Obama is responsible for the death of Tyler Clementi and HUNDREDS of other Gay children."
"Obama is a MASS MURDERER."
"He Must Be STOPPED! By any means necessary....."
82
So called "young people" have been spiraling towards ever greater cruelty in all things.
The record here proves that.
Suddenly it matters when one of your own is afflicted.
The record here proves that.
Suddenly it matters when one of your own is afflicted.
84
This is the Legal definition of involuntary manslaughter:
The act of unlawfully killing another human being unintentionally.
Most unintentional killings are not murder but involuntary manslaughter. The absence of the element of intent is the key distinguishing factor between voluntary and involuntary manslaughter. In most states involuntary manslaughter results from an improper use of reasonable care or skill while performing a legal act, or while committing an act that is unlawful but not felonious.
If they are prosecuted in accordance with the legal definition, Ravi and Wei can be charged with involuntary manslaughter. If the handcuffs fit then they should be wearing them. And what about the bullies that taunted Billy and Cody and Asher and Seth? Not all of the tormenters were underage. If the legal definition shouldn't be applied to these cases, then exactly what set of circumstances could warrant such charges? How far is too far before the law is applied equally to all?
You're right Dan that there needs to be a broader reckoning, we need answers, things have to change and there are other accomplices out there. But how far back are you going to go to try and place blame? To the doctor that slapped their butt when they were born?
My position has and always will be that I want the law to apply to Ravi and Wei as I expect it should be applied to me, you and anyone else. And if that seems like a mob mentality to some, then que sera sera. The law is the law is the law, whether you're black and white, red striped or pink with purple polka dots.
The act of unlawfully killing another human being unintentionally.
Most unintentional killings are not murder but involuntary manslaughter. The absence of the element of intent is the key distinguishing factor between voluntary and involuntary manslaughter. In most states involuntary manslaughter results from an improper use of reasonable care or skill while performing a legal act, or while committing an act that is unlawful but not felonious.
If they are prosecuted in accordance with the legal definition, Ravi and Wei can be charged with involuntary manslaughter. If the handcuffs fit then they should be wearing them. And what about the bullies that taunted Billy and Cody and Asher and Seth? Not all of the tormenters were underage. If the legal definition shouldn't be applied to these cases, then exactly what set of circumstances could warrant such charges? How far is too far before the law is applied equally to all?
You're right Dan that there needs to be a broader reckoning, we need answers, things have to change and there are other accomplices out there. But how far back are you going to go to try and place blame? To the doctor that slapped their butt when they were born?
My position has and always will be that I want the law to apply to Ravi and Wei as I expect it should be applied to me, you and anyone else. And if that seems like a mob mentality to some, then que sera sera. The law is the law is the law, whether you're black and white, red striped or pink with purple polka dots.
85
Wow. I thought Dan was overreacting about the "mob mentality" until I saw post #84.
If they are prosecuted in accordance with the legal definitionI don't know what they taught you in Internet Law School, Internet Lawyer, but in the real world, looking up a single term in an on-line law dictionary does not make you a legal expert.
86
As a "victim" of being bullied, you are wrong on this Dan. Whomever the other person was on the video is besides the point. The roommate wanted to prove that there was gay activity in his room and sought support to out this talented young man. The issue is that if he was boinking a female this would have been a non-issue. Het sex, according to the majority, is above all else.
87
You are right that Tyler Clementi likely thought the humiliation he experienced at the hands of his roommate and friend was the last straw. That does not let them off the hook. They need to pay for the part they played in driving him to suicide. But the worst offender is the climate of homophobia that led Clementi to think of himself as expendable. The sermons of hateful religious people and the actions of hateful politicians are also responsible for the death of this talented young man.
89
Dan... you're right.
Charge the two voyeurs with voyeurism... that's enough. Their lives have been ruined. I'm not sad and I wish them all the torment their small minds can take but just being shown on the internet to a few people kissing a guy isn't enough to make him kill himself. That poor kid is a victim of a carelessly homophobic culture.
Charge the two voyeurs with voyeurism... that's enough. Their lives have been ruined. I'm not sad and I wish them all the torment their small minds can take but just being shown on the internet to a few people kissing a guy isn't enough to make him kill himself. That poor kid is a victim of a carelessly homophobic culture.
90
Dan... you're right.
Charge the two voyeurs with voyeurism... that's enough. Their lives have been ruined. I'm not sad and I wish them all the torment their small minds can take but just being shown on the internet to a few people kissing a guy isn't enough to make him kill himself. That poor kid is a victim of a carelessly homophobic culture.
Charge the two voyeurs with voyeurism... that's enough. Their lives have been ruined. I'm not sad and I wish them all the torment their small minds can take but just being shown on the internet to a few people kissing a guy isn't enough to make him kill himself. That poor kid is a victim of a carelessly homophobic culture.
91
I think I stumbled upon the missing piece here. There is a facebook site devoted to his memory that had a link to him playing violin on the praise team at Grace Church in Ridgewood. From the website, linked here, you can see it is a conservative maga church.
http://www.gracechurchnj.net/about_grace…
http://www.gracechurchnj.net/about_grace…
92
Great article here. I too think that this was just the final straw.
Still, I don't think these two kids should be absolved of blame. (Not that I think you're implying that.) What they did was still a serious invasion of privacy, and they should be brought to justice for that.
Still, I don't think these two kids should be absolved of blame. (Not that I think you're implying that.) What they did was still a serious invasion of privacy, and they should be brought to justice for that.
93
I'm not and didn't claim to be a legal expert, @85, are you? I'm assuming you're a lawyer right?
The legal definition I cited is from my brother-in-law, an attorney whose practice in Long Beach, California specializes in voluntary and involuntary vehicular manslaughter. Which is in fact different from constructive and criminally negligent manslaughter. According to my brother-in-law Ed, who I would trust with my life, the definition of involuntary manslaughter is largely the same whether the reference is from UCLA, Yale, New York U. or UC Berkeley, his Alma mater. There are however varying degrees of culpability from state to state.
So, there you have it. And best of luck at the Larry H. Parker School of Law. I fight for you!
The legal definition I cited is from my brother-in-law, an attorney whose practice in Long Beach, California specializes in voluntary and involuntary vehicular manslaughter. Which is in fact different from constructive and criminally negligent manslaughter. According to my brother-in-law Ed, who I would trust with my life, the definition of involuntary manslaughter is largely the same whether the reference is from UCLA, Yale, New York U. or UC Berkeley, his Alma mater. There are however varying degrees of culpability from state to state.
So, there you have it. And best of luck at the Larry H. Parker School of Law. I fight for you!
94
"You're only responsible for the reasonably foreseeable consequences of your actions. I have seen no evidence to indicate that the two students could reasonably foresee that this young man would react to what they did by jumping off the GWB. "
Really? REALLY? They could not reasonably foresee that a painfully shy gay young man might be driven to suicidal despair by having his sex life violated and dragged out for their amusement?
REALLY?
'cause most people could have called that a potential consequence from a mile away. That would land squarely in the whole "reasonably foresee" area right there.
Really? REALLY? They could not reasonably foresee that a painfully shy gay young man might be driven to suicidal despair by having his sex life violated and dragged out for their amusement?
REALLY?
'cause most people could have called that a potential consequence from a mile away. That would land squarely in the whole "reasonably foresee" area right there.
95
The bottom line is this: Ravi and Wei aren't being charged with Tylers murder. As of last I'd heard, they're being charged with videotaping someone without their consent, and then broadcasting it- which carries a maximum sentence of 5 years in prison. I think they deserve every last day of it.
The charges against them have nothing to do with the fact that Tyler killed himself. They'd have gotten the same sentence for filming a straight roommate.
There are other culprits who share blame for Tyler's death, and in a just world they would also serve time; But just because we can't bring them to justice doesn't mean Ravi and Wei should be off the hook.
The charges against them have nothing to do with the fact that Tyler killed himself. They'd have gotten the same sentence for filming a straight roommate.
There are other culprits who share blame for Tyler's death, and in a just world they would also serve time; But just because we can't bring them to justice doesn't mean Ravi and Wei should be off the hook.
96
Dan, I'm glad you brought up the other man. I have been wondering what happened to him. I wondered if he was caught in the tape and how he felt when he found out that Tyler had committed suicide. I also wondered if he has support if he needs it.
97
Dan--you usually dont jump on any bandwagons, so Im surprised you're "convinced" Tyler committed suicide after years of abuse and humiliation. He may very well have, or he may have had a fairly easy go of it--and had SERIOUS MENTAL ISSUES that caused him to overreact to a humiliating and stressful situation.
98
Whoa. I see your arguments delving somewhere a little more philosophical when it comes to assigning blame, Dan, but I sure as hell don't see the aftermath of this situation as any kind of conspiracy. Just a sadly typical case in our society, as it stands. And I absolutely do not mind if those two morons take the fall for this. As philosophically sound as your argument is, there is no way we can go back and thoroughly (or even randomly), punish other elements responsible. By the way, do we know if Clementi left a suicide note?
99
As a Jersey resident one of the things that struck me about this was the geography of the events.
At some point after he become aware of his outing Tyler left the Rutgers Campus and made the hour+ ride to Bergen county where he had grow up and where his family lived. And it was there in Bergen county just about 11 miles from his hometown that he dropped himself off the bridge.
There were certainly plenty of places in NJ closer to Rutgers where a distraught youth could have ended his life. Why the ride back home?
Did he come home to tell his family about what had happened. Did it not go well?
All speculation I know, but as someone who knows the area the location of his suicide struck me as telling.
At some point after he become aware of his outing Tyler left the Rutgers Campus and made the hour+ ride to Bergen county where he had grow up and where his family lived. And it was there in Bergen county just about 11 miles from his hometown that he dropped himself off the bridge.
There were certainly plenty of places in NJ closer to Rutgers where a distraught youth could have ended his life. Why the ride back home?
Did he come home to tell his family about what had happened. Did it not go well?
All speculation I know, but as someone who knows the area the location of his suicide struck me as telling.
100
We should ALWAYS care if the punishment fits the crime (not the unintended result, though how forseeable that could be should be considered).
Who killed Tyler Cleminti? Tyler Clementi did, and I understand why. But nobody threw him off that bridge, they just treated him like shit.
Dan has the right perspective here. We should punish the guilty appropriately, and not use them as avatars for every cumulative cruelty that was inflicted on this boy by everyone else in his life. Right now, they are either grief-stricken, dumb with guilt, or pointing fingers.
Who killed Tyler Cleminti? Tyler Clementi did, and I understand why. But nobody threw him off that bridge, they just treated him like shit.
Dan has the right perspective here. We should punish the guilty appropriately, and not use them as avatars for every cumulative cruelty that was inflicted on this boy by everyone else in his life. Right now, they are either grief-stricken, dumb with guilt, or pointing fingers.
101
Quoth @95:
Really? The guy who transmitted nude video of Erin Andrews was sentenced to 2.5 years, not 5 years. If Clementi's suicide is not a factor, and Clementi's sexual orientation is not a factor, then what separates that case from this one? Or is your argument that everyone should get 5 years, always?
I'm intrigued by @99's geography points. Based on the message boards, it does sound like Clementi was dealing with the video quite admirably. So he drives to where he grew up, possibly sees his family, possibly tells them about the video, and then jumps off a bridge?
Methinks the video was not the last straw.
The bottom line is this: Ravi and Wei aren't being charged with Tylers murder. As of last I'd heard, they're being charged with videotaping someone without their consent, and then broadcasting it- which carries a maximum sentence of 5 years in prison. I think they deserve every last day of it.
The charges against them have nothing to do with the fact that Tyler killed himself. They'd have gotten the same sentence for filming a straight roommate.
Really? The guy who transmitted nude video of Erin Andrews was sentenced to 2.5 years, not 5 years. If Clementi's suicide is not a factor, and Clementi's sexual orientation is not a factor, then what separates that case from this one? Or is your argument that everyone should get 5 years, always?
I'm intrigued by @99's geography points. Based on the message boards, it does sound like Clementi was dealing with the video quite admirably. So he drives to where he grew up, possibly sees his family, possibly tells them about the video, and then jumps off a bridge?
Methinks the video was not the last straw.
102
On of the few, very few, good things about our media culture is that the answers to all the questions will come out in time. Whether anyone is paying any attention at that point in the future is, on the other hand, unlikely given that same media culture.
Something happened in the hours before Tyler's suicide, something beyond what is known at this point. It's possible that his decision was just a delayed reaction to the video, etc., but I'm not buying it.
Common decency requires that I bite my tongue, so I do, but there's more to this than we can see right now.
Something happened in the hours before Tyler's suicide, something beyond what is known at this point. It's possible that his decision was just a delayed reaction to the video, etc., but I'm not buying it.
Common decency requires that I bite my tongue, so I do, but there's more to this than we can see right now.
103
I think that if anyone at Tyler's house said something unkind or cruel, they are probably paying a higher price now than any of us could imagine.
104
Of course, because we all know that everyone reacts the exact same way to every situation. Good grief.
I am so angry at the premature speculating & conspiracy theories. The post reads like someone sleep deprived and high wrote it.
If you don't like the mob mentality, then say that. Then wait for the facts instead of this bullshit.
I am so angry at the premature speculating & conspiracy theories. The post reads like someone sleep deprived and high wrote it.
If you don't like the mob mentality, then say that. Then wait for the facts instead of this bullshit.
105
Ok, I'm very sorry to have to say this, but I'm disappointed in you, Dan. I am here in Brussels, waiting for your latest podcast to come down the line, assuming that you will go into a "major rant" over this case. But your tepid comments here don't seem to indicate that's in the offing. Yes, of course, those two idiot "kids" aren't solely responsible for Tyler's suicide, and, yes, his family, et al, are responsible. In fact, everyone is responsible -- which is the problem, because if everyone is responsible, then no one is truly responsible. Right? But that's not the point. The point is that this must stop; it must stop now; and you are the spokesperson to start a campaign to make it stop. A campaign that would enlist every gay person in this entire country to wear a "Yeah, I'm Gay -- So What?" button or something similar on a particular day. Until all the gay people in this country reveal themselves to the rest of the society, until they can show just how many Tylers there are out there, no one is going to change anything. That that young man, so apparently talented and gifted, has thrown his life away out of shame just for being gay should never be allowed to happen again. And you, Dan, are the only person I can see who has the media power to do something about this. Now. You have become a political figure. Your increasing rants have led you down this path, which you may not even want to travel, but travel it you must. It's up to you, man. Get going!
106
Thank you, Dan. I don't think Tyler's suicide was set off by this single incident. I don't feel any sympathy for the pair that taped him though - I think they are a couple of sociopaths, frankly. But I don't think homophobia was _necessarily_ the reason for their so-called prank (though it very well could have been). The level of cynicism I see in that age group and the disconnection from concepts of kindness and respect can be shocking - I wonder if it's generational or just that phase in life.... Do I sound like I'm 90?
But Tyler's suicide leads me to wonder about his home life as a child, his grade school years and also his general mental health. I was filled with despair for much of my college career as a result of undiagnosed mental issues (depression, severe ADD) that made it difficult for me to function on a social and academic level- and so were a lot of my peers, even if I didn't know it. (I was not, however, suicidal - that was in high school.) What happened to Tyler, with or without a homophobic motivation, was a pretty horrific violation in and of itself. That alone might have been enough to set off his suicide if he was in a depression, but also if he had felt rejected all along, that could have been the last straw - the violation that confirmed his outsider status.
And yes, there was another guy in that room being taped. I hadn't even thought about him, until you pointed it out. How must he be feeling?
But finally, what's the story with Tyler's family? I understand they're devastated and grieving now, but a statement from them might go a long way to clarifying what happened with this kid.
But Tyler's suicide leads me to wonder about his home life as a child, his grade school years and also his general mental health. I was filled with despair for much of my college career as a result of undiagnosed mental issues (depression, severe ADD) that made it difficult for me to function on a social and academic level- and so were a lot of my peers, even if I didn't know it. (I was not, however, suicidal - that was in high school.) What happened to Tyler, with or without a homophobic motivation, was a pretty horrific violation in and of itself. That alone might have been enough to set off his suicide if he was in a depression, but also if he had felt rejected all along, that could have been the last straw - the violation that confirmed his outsider status.
And yes, there was another guy in that room being taped. I hadn't even thought about him, until you pointed it out. How must he be feeling?
But finally, what's the story with Tyler's family? I understand they're devastated and grieving now, but a statement from them might go a long way to clarifying what happened with this kid.
107
I have been having similar thoughts Dan. Especially when I hear about bullied, gay kids that killed themselves the day that they came out to there parents. It's horrifying to say when there is no evidence, but I can't help but think that if the parents were supportive when their child came out and showed unconditional love and compassion that those kids would not have felt so hopeless as to see suicide as preferable to living in their current environment, or in Tyler's case, if the authorities that he complained to showed the moral outrage, that Dharun and Molly's gross invasion of privacy warranted, and compassion and empathy, then Tyler might be alive today. I know that without further information, such things shouldn't be said, so please take what I say as just my mind trying to go down unfair pathways in privately trying to understand the many little things that take a young man to the brink of suicide.
In my own situation, my father predictably said that I was dead to him when I first came out. And my sister cried all day. They are both incredible loving and supportive now, but if I wasn't as strong, or I was outed before I was mentally ready who can say what I would have done. Sadly in today's still intolerant environment, it takes an incredible aware and emotionally mature parent to be able to convey unconditional love and compassion to their child coming out.
Bravo for calling Christie out on his hypocrisy and Obama as well, who has been such a profound disappointment to those who thought that we might get a measure of equality with him in office.
In my own situation, my father predictably said that I was dead to him when I first came out. And my sister cried all day. They are both incredible loving and supportive now, but if I wasn't as strong, or I was outed before I was mentally ready who can say what I would have done. Sadly in today's still intolerant environment, it takes an incredible aware and emotionally mature parent to be able to convey unconditional love and compassion to their child coming out.
Bravo for calling Christie out on his hypocrisy and Obama as well, who has been such a profound disappointment to those who thought that we might get a measure of equality with him in office.
108
@99 - There is a perfectly good bridge in New Brunswick, isn't there? I live in the area too, and your comments raise some possibilities I hadn't thought about. But maybe when you're wounded, you run to the place that feels like home? I dunno.
But I think the point here is that Tyler did not just manifest out of nowhere to be taped having sex and then fling himself off of a bridge. There were 18 years of living before that, and I don't think those two worthless POS who taped him would have spurred his suicide if what came before was all sunshine and roses. Did his family support him? Did he know they had his back? Did he have a tolerable grade-school experience?
Leo77, what's your take on this: This was a gifted young man who was making a place for himself in the fine arts in New Jersey, a 45-minute train ride away from New York City - are we really to believe that he was not surrounded by happily out gay folks? And as far as I know, Rutgers is not exactly a hotbed of homophobia - though I could be wrong, since it's been ages since I was hanging with students there. But the outrage on campus seems pretty genuine. If Tyler did kill himself because homophobia made his life seem unbearable and hopeless, I think the magnifying glass should be on what came before, not necessarily on the last hours of his life.
This case is so different from the other gay teen suicides Dan has highlighted because so far it's based on a single incident and the cause and effect is murky. The other teens (and younger) he has featured in his blog posts have undergone what can only be described as prolonged torture, usually in places that lack any real "out" gay community or have a strong fundamentalist religious vibe.
The key question is, What made Tyler Clementi feel so isolated that killing himself was the only way out?
We don't really know that yet.
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But I think the point here is that Tyler did not just manifest out of nowhere to be taped having sex and then fling himself off of a bridge. There were 18 years of living before that, and I don't think those two worthless POS who taped him would have spurred his suicide if what came before was all sunshine and roses. Did his family support him? Did he know they had his back? Did he have a tolerable grade-school experience?
Leo77, what's your take on this: This was a gifted young man who was making a place for himself in the fine arts in New Jersey, a 45-minute train ride away from New York City - are we really to believe that he was not surrounded by happily out gay folks? And as far as I know, Rutgers is not exactly a hotbed of homophobia - though I could be wrong, since it's been ages since I was hanging with students there. But the outrage on campus seems pretty genuine. If Tyler did kill himself because homophobia made his life seem unbearable and hopeless, I think the magnifying glass should be on what came before, not necessarily on the last hours of his life.
This case is so different from the other gay teen suicides Dan has highlighted because so far it's based on a single incident and the cause and effect is murky. The other teens (and younger) he has featured in his blog posts have undergone what can only be described as prolonged torture, usually in places that lack any real "out" gay community or have a strong fundamentalist religious vibe.
The key question is, What made Tyler Clementi feel so isolated that killing himself was the only way out?
We don't really know that yet.
109
@106 Go read post 71.
Part of why Dan's words and many of the conspiracy theory-esque responses it has spawned have pissed me off is that when my son was depressed and being bullied, we were doing everything we knew to do and what the experts were telling us to do. We supported him fully, including the fact that he was gay, spent untold hours in offices with teachers and administrators, spoke with a lawyer and so on.
It only take a few minutes or, at the most, a few hours to make a decision that cannot be undone.
And nothing super-secret has to have happened in the hours prior to that decision. Parents and friends could be as supportive as possible; that may not be enough to save someone from the poison of bullying, of being humiliated, of being fragil and/or the grip of depression or anxiety.
It could have been the crushing reality that it did not get better after high school, it could have been depression that came on quickly, it could have been something we'll never know or a combination of all three. But what we do know is that something illegal was done to him and that needs to be prosecuted. And if we want to treat Tyler with dignity, then we'll cool it on the speculation and let his story unfold.
Part of why Dan's words and many of the conspiracy theory-esque responses it has spawned have pissed me off is that when my son was depressed and being bullied, we were doing everything we knew to do and what the experts were telling us to do. We supported him fully, including the fact that he was gay, spent untold hours in offices with teachers and administrators, spoke with a lawyer and so on.
It only take a few minutes or, at the most, a few hours to make a decision that cannot be undone.
And nothing super-secret has to have happened in the hours prior to that decision. Parents and friends could be as supportive as possible; that may not be enough to save someone from the poison of bullying, of being humiliated, of being fragil and/or the grip of depression or anxiety.
It could have been the crushing reality that it did not get better after high school, it could have been depression that came on quickly, it could have been something we'll never know or a combination of all three. But what we do know is that something illegal was done to him and that needs to be prosecuted. And if we want to treat Tyler with dignity, then we'll cool it on the speculation and let his story unfold.
110
I want to clarify that my son is alive and well now. I never thought that depression could come down so fast on someone who appeared fine to the rest of the world. Having been through that part of it plus the bullying part of it leaves me confounded that anyone could think that Tyler's suicide is somehow mysterious or that not enough happened to him to explain what he did.
111
@109: I agree that we shouldn't assume Clementi's parents were rejecting, but it's definitely something that should be investigated. Gay kids who are rejected by their families are over eight times as likely to attempt suicide as kids who have loving and accepting parents. With those kind of statistics, you have to be a little suspicious of the parents.
By way of comparison, a statistically high number of female murder victims are killed by their husbands, boyfriends, or exes. As a result, those people are automatically on the short list of suspects in a police investigation. Doesn't mean we assume that the grieving widower is a murderer, but we would be remiss not to follow the data with as much discretion and compassion as possible.
By way of comparison, a statistically high number of female murder victims are killed by their husbands, boyfriends, or exes. As a result, those people are automatically on the short list of suspects in a police investigation. Doesn't mean we assume that the grieving widower is a murderer, but we would be remiss not to follow the data with as much discretion and compassion as possible.
112
@109, I've experienced firsthand how depression and suicidal thoughts can kinda blindside you, and have had friends go through the same. I'm glad your son made it through.
Tyler's suicide could have been just the result of a particularly bad day for his body chemistry. Or it could have been something more.
I think Dan raises a pretty relevant point that needs to be addressed though - and it's not wrong to raise it now. The two kids who did the taping committed a serious crime, but it's insane that people are labeling them murderers right off the bat. Their lives are already wrecked, I'm sure - and I don't really feel too bad about that. But I think a lot of people are worried Tyler's death will fade from the spotlight if there's not a push for the truth. It's not prurience to want to know, when gay kids are dying at at their own hands at a higher rate than their peers.
This young man's death should be a wake-up call. But to what? To the need for schools to protect their students from bullying? To the need for more awareness on college campuses and among parents about depression, its signs and dangers? To parents who can't come to term with their child's sexuality? To the difficulties faced by LGBT youth? Or to just a lack of kindness and empathy in our modern society?
Tyler's already been made a poster child by countless groups claiming his story - it would seem vital that the true story be known. And honestly, the statement released by the family doesn't really put my mind to rest. It's kind of ambiguous.
109, you did everything you could to support your child - there is no doubt in my mind that your efforts saved his life. But for every parent like you, there's another who doesn't make the effort you did. Tyler may have just been in a really bad spot, and pushed over the edge by the horrific crime that was committed against him. Or this might have been the culmination of a long history of adversity. But if people do just step back and "let his story unfold" it might never actually do that. These are questions that I really believe need to be asked, before this spotlight fades. The only police investigation here is into whether those two taped Tyler, invading his privacy - the rest of the story will only be heard if someone is moved to speak.
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Tyler's suicide could have been just the result of a particularly bad day for his body chemistry. Or it could have been something more.
I think Dan raises a pretty relevant point that needs to be addressed though - and it's not wrong to raise it now. The two kids who did the taping committed a serious crime, but it's insane that people are labeling them murderers right off the bat. Their lives are already wrecked, I'm sure - and I don't really feel too bad about that. But I think a lot of people are worried Tyler's death will fade from the spotlight if there's not a push for the truth. It's not prurience to want to know, when gay kids are dying at at their own hands at a higher rate than their peers.
This young man's death should be a wake-up call. But to what? To the need for schools to protect their students from bullying? To the need for more awareness on college campuses and among parents about depression, its signs and dangers? To parents who can't come to term with their child's sexuality? To the difficulties faced by LGBT youth? Or to just a lack of kindness and empathy in our modern society?
Tyler's already been made a poster child by countless groups claiming his story - it would seem vital that the true story be known. And honestly, the statement released by the family doesn't really put my mind to rest. It's kind of ambiguous.
109, you did everything you could to support your child - there is no doubt in my mind that your efforts saved his life. But for every parent like you, there's another who doesn't make the effort you did. Tyler may have just been in a really bad spot, and pushed over the edge by the horrific crime that was committed against him. Or this might have been the culmination of a long history of adversity. But if people do just step back and "let his story unfold" it might never actually do that. These are questions that I really believe need to be asked, before this spotlight fades. The only police investigation here is into whether those two taped Tyler, invading his privacy - the rest of the story will only be heard if someone is moved to speak.
113
Thank you for this blog entry. You are the only one who seems to be thinking and not thoughtlessly being as blindly hateful as many so-called Tyler supporters.
I was actually part of the thread on JUB where Tyler asked for advice on the roommate situation. And he was NOT totally destroyed by the roommate webcam incident. And he said he hadnt been filmed having sex as the media as reported. He and the guy only made out that night he said. He was more annoyed than anything about what the roomate had done and was talking to the RA in order to switch rooms.
Something else MUST have happened
I was actually part of the thread on JUB where Tyler asked for advice on the roommate situation. And he was NOT totally destroyed by the roommate webcam incident. And he said he hadnt been filmed having sex as the media as reported. He and the guy only made out that night he said. He was more annoyed than anything about what the roomate had done and was talking to the RA in order to switch rooms.
Something else MUST have happened
114
"The facebook post that "outed" him ended with "yay." I can't shake the feeling that his roommate was happy that Tyler had an honest sexual experience."
I thought that for a second but why go on to out him in such a way. I then started thinking that the "yay" was because he was happy to see him caught in a scandalous position and he could have fun taunting him putting his business online. Either way he is an idiot and a first rate asshole.
I thought that for a second but why go on to out him in such a way. I then started thinking that the "yay" was because he was happy to see him caught in a scandalous position and he could have fun taunting him putting his business online. Either way he is an idiot and a first rate asshole.
115
I find it appalling that you opt to implicate society in a case that very clearly demonstrates individuals who engaged in malicious, invasive behavior. Yes, we do live in a society that has yet to come to terms with fair treatment of homosexuals, but this opinion reads as though the two students' behavior was anything less than absolutely reprehensible. To film such an intimate act between unknowing parties is downright embarrassing and a complete violation of their rights, irrespective of the orientation of the people involved. In reading some of the comments, if what I've read is to be believed, that Clementi's roommate thought he was doing Clementi a service in outing him, uh no, he wasn't, and it annoys me to think he so arrogantly prided himself on getting involved in another person's sexual life. But then again, I'm not retarded enough to think it was an attempt at anything other than pure childish humiliation. It may not have necessarily been on account of homophobia that they did such a thing, but it was nevertheless stupid and should be punished. Moreover, Clementi's suicide also may not have just been about his outing. But I'll leave the speculation to someone who'd rather be bothered with such questions.
116
Dan your right in many of the points that you made in this article. I am not homosexual but I have had a rough time dealing with some of the trials and tribulations that came through during middle school and high school. When you go through so much throughout your life and then think of a place that could give you an opportunity to be yourself its an amazing feeling. Tyler maybe thought that in moving into college was a great idea because people were going to be accepting of who he was but how could you live with someone who does something like that to another human being. The loss of a life is absolutely horrible but when you look at the other side of the spectrum it took a suicide that definitely hit close to home for everyone to get up in arms about it. What would of happened if Tyler didn't commit suicide the two students would get expelled? I think that if more severe action is taken against bullying then things like this wouldn't happen. As for the two culprits they are around my age and honestly I think at this point a person should know what they are doing and know that invading someones privacy when they are in a vulnerable state can cause major damage! What they did was wrong and I believe that we can't just wrote it off as their stupid teenagers because it giving them and others permission to do it again!!
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Did Tyler inform the roommate he was gay? Tyler asked for some private time and the roommate knew that Clementi was going to have a man over - how could he know this if Tyler hadn't told him so? Perhaps the roommate was spying on Tyler's computer conversations? Even in that event, having a man come to your room after you've asked your roommate for privacy pretty much outs you anyway. Does anyone feel for the roommate, having to know that his roommate is having gay sex in the room with some older man? I wouldn't want to be in that situation - gay tolerance is one thing, but regular gay sex in your dorm room is quite another. Lesson - don't ask your roommate for privacy and then waltz a man into your dorm room for a few hours and expect nobody to catch on (with or without video evidence) something doesn't add up. Further, any homophobic straight male would not tolerate gay sex in his dorm room for a millisecond.
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Did Tyler inform the roommate he was gay? Tyler asked for some private time and the roommate knew that Clementi was going to have a man over - how could he know this if Tyler hadn't told him so? Perhaps the roommate was spying on Tyler's computer conversations? Even in that event, having a man come to your room after you've asked your roommate for privacy pretty much outs you anyway. Does anyone feel for the roommate, having to know that his roommate is having gay sex in the room with some older man? I wouldn't want to be in that situation - gay tolerance is one thing, but regular gay sex in your dorm room is quite another. Lesson - don't ask your roommate for privacy and then waltz a man into your dorm room for a few hours and expect nobody to catch on (with or without video evidence) something doesn't add up. Further, any homophobic straight male would not tolerate gay sex in his dorm room for a millisecond.
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I want to clarify that my son is alive and well now. I never thought that depression could come down so fast on someone who appeared fine to the rest of the world. Having been through that part of it plus the bullying part of it leaves me confounded that anyone could think that Tyler's suicide is somehow mysterious or that not enough happened to him to explain what he did.
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120
One thing to not forget. Suicide is ultimately the responsibility of ONE person. The driving factors can vary, but it is a an action of choice. This would be a very different issue if he had merely gone to the campus/city police force and reported the scum.
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Question: Who killed Tyler Clementi?
Answer: Tyler Clementi.
sui·cide
noun
Definition of SUICIDE
1
a : the act or an instance of taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally especially by a person of years of discretion and of sound mind.
You need to ask a different question to match your answer.
Answer: Tyler Clementi.
sui·cide
noun
Definition of SUICIDE
1
a : the act or an instance of taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally especially by a person of years of discretion and of sound mind.
You need to ask a different question to match your answer.
122
This is ludicrous. First you call for bullying to end. Now you want sympathy for the bullies on the basis that they are merely a part of the homophobic culture. Try being consistent, Dan. Holding people culpable for their actions is crucial if we're going to end attacks on young gay people. I think it's especially specious of you to try to indict his family in some way, when you have no evidence at all with which to do so. Shame on you. For generations the real issue has been that people can harass, bully, and even kill gay people and get away with it. You're contributing to their defense. Shame on you Dan.
123
And I'll say one further thing...this is indicative of the self-loathing and internalized homophobic in our community. No other minority group would ask for sympathy for bashers. They'd want justice done. Yes, this society is homophobic. But not all people who are prejudiced against us, act out in hatred and violence. We cannot excuse the behavior of those who do. As to the bizarre argument that the other man did not kill himself, therefore someone else must have harmed this young man who killed himself...that's rubbish. People deal with harassment in different ways because their capacity to withstand it is different. One person might be publicly humiliated and not be so deeply affected. But that's because our tolerance levels for such things is different. People have different capacities to withstand pain, either physical or emotional. That's not incumbent upon their upbringing. In fact, some teens kill themselves when harmed because they had relatively peaceful and loving home lives and had not built up an immunity to being treated badly. This society is homophobic. But I still want the Dan Whites in prison;and Matthew Shepherd's killers as well. There have to be penalties for harassment. My sympathies go to the victims. There's too much sympathy for homophobic bullies as it is.
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Totally agree with you Dan...here it is not the kids who is to be blamed for, but the society who have to be blamed for .. Also this a dome and not an hotel room where you get people and do any inappropriate stuff …Now what are the prosecutors doing is like picking on them and bulling them…Here the rapist and murderer get away with their crime by getting sentenced only for 2 yrs. or for one… and for these kids it is like 5 to 10 years which is ridiculous… I’m not supporting Ravi or the girl but come on they are immature, young and still learning …when adults make mistake why can’t these kids…
This is not the first time something has happen in a dome, but the other get away and these fools were the victims…Before punishing these kids it should the society who has to be blamed for…There should be something in the school were the kids have to be guided, where they know where to draw a line…
Something has to be done, it is along with Tyler these kids are also been murdered…their life their career is all flying out of the window…now they are tagged with it life- long..I only wish that God should help these kids to reform and save them from such a ridiculous decision what the hearings have given…
This is not the first time something has happen in a dome, but the other get away and these fools were the victims…Before punishing these kids it should the society who has to be blamed for…There should be something in the school were the kids have to be guided, where they know where to draw a line…
Something has to be done, it is along with Tyler these kids are also been murdered…their life their career is all flying out of the window…now they are tagged with it life- long..I only wish that God should help these kids to reform and save them from such a ridiculous decision what the hearings have given…
125
Bullying has been around forever, but as your "It Gets Better" campaign shows, it has gotten WORSE. The culture of open bullying has been exacerbated by the Internet. People think they can post anything with impunity - because most can. A few get caught saying or doing something horrible and pay with expulsion from school, loss of their job, or worse.
Ravi had the option of taking a plea bargain that would have spared him both jail time and possible deportation. So, although Ravi is not directly responsible for Tyler Clementi's death, Ravi is ultimately responsible for his own fate.
Ravi had the option of taking a plea bargain that would have spared him both jail time and possible deportation. So, although Ravi is not directly responsible for Tyler Clementi's death, Ravi is ultimately responsible for his own fate.
127
Dan, the unidentified person is a 30 year old guy. Undoubtedly a lot further along in life and comfortable in his own skin. WAY different that a college freshman. Yeah, there could have been lots of other incidents in Tyler's life, but I am startled to think that one incident at a certain time in a boy's life could precipitate a suicide without anybody else being culpable. I know what you are saying, but you somehow don't grasp that if "the straw that broke the camel's back" was 100 times the weight of the other straws and if the other guy in the room had a much stronger back because of his age then it is not necessary to search for other culprits.
128
I'm stunned at the comments that suggest that hysterical scapegoating is the key to making bullying unacceptable in our society. Hysterical scapegoating is part of the mindset that fosters bullying of "the other" - gay or fat or minority or "from the wrong side of the tracks" - in the first place.
129
I think it's a bit drastic to assume both of them would commit suicide. Just because Tyler did and the other boy doesn't mean anything... Clearly the other boy was able to handle this level of embarrassment/evil better.
This is a very tragic story, and I agree with those who may be called radicals that the pair responsible for putting the video online should be dealt with to the fullest extent of the law. It hurts to see that people of my generation think stunts like that are acceptable.
This is a very tragic story, and I agree with those who may be called radicals that the pair responsible for putting the video online should be dealt with to the fullest extent of the law. It hurts to see that people of my generation think stunts like that are acceptable.
130
I've never gotten the impression that his parents, who, without facts, seem to be vilified by this article, were anything, but supportive and/or in the dark about his situation entirely. I think that yes, coping skills can only be taken so far, but those past situations did not lead to his death...the last one did...there was a straw that broke the camel's back...but there was no necessity for that straw to be there...that's what this case is truly about, in basic terms. The writer of the article did not seem to totally understand the concept of outing one's self and the emotional consequences of being hung out to dry without being able to out one's self on one's own terms. Now, if we can start trying the high school bullies for the same reasons, this case can begin to make a difference. To me, the persons who tormented Clementi and this Slog, can make all the excuses they want, but excuses won't bring Tyler Clementi back. Parents lost a son. The students lost a friend. The community lost out on the opportunity to hear his music. That's too much loss to come from that one straw and that's why these two miscreants need to be prosecuted and sentenced effectively. I think Bob Dylan wrote it and Peter, Paul and Mary sang it best....
BLOWIN' IN THE WIND
Bob Dylan- Special Rider Music - SESAC
How many roads must a man walk down
Before they call him a man?
How many seas must a white dove sail
Before she sleeps in the sand?
How many times must the cannon balls fly
Before they're forever banned?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind.
How many years must a mountain exist
Before it is washed to the sea?
How many years can some people exist
Before they're allowed to be free?
How many times can a man turn his head
And pretend that he just doesn't see?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind.
How many times must a man look up
Before he can see the sky?
How many ears must one man have
Before he can hear people cry?
How many deaths will it take till he knows
That too many people have died?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind.
The answer is blowin' in the wind.
More...
BLOWIN' IN THE WIND
Bob Dylan- Special Rider Music - SESAC
How many roads must a man walk down
Before they call him a man?
How many seas must a white dove sail
Before she sleeps in the sand?
How many times must the cannon balls fly
Before they're forever banned?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind.
How many years must a mountain exist
Before it is washed to the sea?
How many years can some people exist
Before they're allowed to be free?
How many times can a man turn his head
And pretend that he just doesn't see?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind.
How many times must a man look up
Before he can see the sky?
How many ears must one man have
Before he can hear people cry?
How many deaths will it take till he knows
That too many people have died?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind.
The answer is blowin' in the wind.
131
I've never gotten the impression that his parents, who, without facts, seem to be vilified by this article, were anything, but supportive and/or in the dark about his situation entirely. I think that yes, coping skills can only be taken so far, but those past situations did not lead to his death...the last one did...there was a straw that broke the camel's back...but there was no necessity for that straw to be there...that's what this case is truly about, in basic terms. The writer of the article did not seem to totally understand the concept of outing one's self and the emotional consequences of being hung out to dry without being able to out one's self on one's own terms. Now, if we can start trying the high school bullies for the same reasons, this case can begin to make a difference. To me, the persons who tormented Clementi and this Slog, can make all the excuses they want, but excuses won't bring Tyler Clementi back. Parents lost a son. The students lost a friend. The community lost out on the opportunity to hear his music. That's too much loss to come from that one straw and that's why these two miscreants need to be prosecuted and sentenced effectively. I think Bob Dylan wrote it and Peter, Paul and Mary sang it best....
BLOWIN' IN THE WIND
Bob Dylan- Special Rider Music - SESAC
How many roads must a man walk down
Before they call him a man?
How many seas must a white dove sail
Before she sleeps in the sand?
How many times must the cannon balls fly
Before they're forever banned?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind.
How many years must a mountain exist
Before it is washed to the sea?
How many years can some people exist
Before they're allowed to be free?
How many times can a man turn his head
And pretend that he just doesn't see?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind.
How many times must a man look up
Before he can see the sky?
How many ears must one man have
Before he can hear people cry?
How many deaths will it take till he knows
That too many people have died?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind.
The answer is blowin' in the wind.
More...
BLOWIN' IN THE WIND
Bob Dylan- Special Rider Music - SESAC
How many roads must a man walk down
Before they call him a man?
How many seas must a white dove sail
Before she sleeps in the sand?
How many times must the cannon balls fly
Before they're forever banned?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind.
How many years must a mountain exist
Before it is washed to the sea?
How many years can some people exist
Before they're allowed to be free?
How many times can a man turn his head
And pretend that he just doesn't see?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind.
How many times must a man look up
Before he can see the sky?
How many ears must one man have
Before he can hear people cry?
How many deaths will it take till he knows
That too many people have died?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind.
The answer is blowin' in the wind.
132
Hasn't anyone read the very long article in The New Yorker about this? (Perhaps one of the comments above has already mentioned this.)
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/…
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/…
134
Instead of prompting a mindful scrutinization of anti-gay policies and attitudes, the suicide of Tyler Clementi has left us scrambling to absolve ourselves from our complicity in this matter. The more we urge for the persecution of Dharun Ravi, the more we are blinding ourselves from the harsh reality that drove Clementi to the tipping point even before Ravi entered his life.
135
Isn't it infantilizing to suggest, as our society tends to, that another can "drive someone to suicide"?
If we taught and lived by the values of emotional intelligence and personal responsibility, we would accept that every moment is a choice, and that "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me"...
If we taught and lived by the values of emotional intelligence and personal responsibility, we would accept that every moment is a choice, and that "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me"...
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