Slog
News & ArtsTuesday, September 21, 2010
Politics Pend Oreille v. Seattle and the Triumph of Socialism
Posted by Goldy on Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 12:06 PM
[Please welcome Goldy to Slog. He'll be posting here as well as his home blog, HorsesAss. — Eds]
In addition to the discounted power already provided the region, Seattle agreed this week to pay Pend Oreille County $19 million over the next 10 years, including $3 million toward construction of a new school in compensation for continued operation of the Boundary Dam. Okay, whatever.
Seattle City Light took a big risk back in 1964, deciding to invest $94 million of rate payer money in building a new dam and 300 miles of transmission lines at a time when electricity was dirt cheap. The fact that this investment more than paid off — Boundary Dam now provides about 46 percent of Seattle's power, ensuring us some of the lowest rates in the nation — is a tribute to the foresight and planning of our city-owned public utility.
In return, Pend Oreille County got a recreational lake that has become a key part of its local economy, new school buildings, and about $1.4 million a year in impact fees... not to mention cheap, wholesale electricity that saves its rate payers about $20 million a year. All told, that's an average of about $1,615 in direct cash benefits annually for every man, woman and child in Pend Oreille County.
That was the legally binding contract. But strapped for cash, and with the federal relicensing process offering an opportunity for political monkey-wrenching, if not outright extortion, Pend Oreille demanded that Seattle triple its annual payments.
Instead, the two sides "compromised," with Pend Oreille getting an additional $3 million toward a new school, a fraction of its original demands. But before you feel too sorry for those poor, exploited rural folk and their crumbling school buildings, you might want to look at this...
When Seattle built the dam 40 years ago, it also built a grade 7-12 school in the northern part of the county. Since then, enrollment has plummeted, the roof started leaking, and seven local bond measures have failed.
It's not Seattle's fault that Pend Oreille didn't maintain its school buildings, it's the Pend Oreille voters' fault for rejecting seven local bond measures. I mean, when was the last time Seattle voters rejected a school levy or bond measure?
Part of Pend Oreille's problem is that inexpensive recreational waterfront real estate has attracted retirees to the area, who obviously couldn't give a shit about funding schools for school age children they no longer have. But a bigger part of the problem is the whole attitude toward government and taxes that seems to dominate in much of the rest of the state. In their minds, the problem isn't that taxes are too low, but that those liberals in Seattle keep ripping everybody else off.
So of course Pend Oreille comes to big, bad Seattle demanding more money, because they're convinced we've been sucking them dry... when in fact Pend Oreille has always been one of the biggest welfare queens in the state. For example, between 1983 and 2004, the Puget Sound region received 98-cents back in spending for every dollar it paid in state and federal transportation taxes. But Pend Oreille County? They saw an impressive $2.58 return! That’s a $68 million subsidy over 20 years, or roughly $260 annually per man, woman and child.
And that's just for transportation; the numbers are similar in nearly every other category of government spending and investment.
More after the jump.
This whole Boundary Dam controversy drives home for me a couple of lessons, not the least of which being the immense public benefit of public investment. Most Seattle residents and businesses have no idea how lucky we are to purchase our power from a city-owned utility whose primary obligation is to the rate payers, not the shareholders. Call it "socialism" if you like (and technically, it is socialism), but Seattle City Light has always proven a tremendous boon to our local economy.
Pend Oreille County rate payers also benefit from such socialism, both from the impact fees and wholesale power provided by the Boundary Dam hydroelectric project, and from the power generated by the Pend Oreille PUD's own Box Canyon Dam, just up river.
But the bigger lesson is that today's enormous political divide between rural and urban Americans as to the proper size and scope of government is largely based on a fundamental misconception about who is subsidizing whom. For without state and federal investments and subsidies in rural electrification, irrigation, transportation, communication, education and nearly every other "-ation," much of rural America would have remained the same economic backwater it was prior to the admittedly massive expansion of government during President Roosevelt's New Deal, and the next half-century of Democratic and Republican administrations that followed.
Again, call it "socialism" if you want, and technically, for example, the interstate highway system, you know, is socialism — but it was this massive wave of public investment that helped build the United States into the greatest economic, military, political and cultural power in the history of the world.
And it was a lack of public investment that reduced Pend Oreille to begging Seattle for money after the roof fell in at its lone 7-12 school.
2
Microdams and minidams are the wave of the future.
People here complain about power cost, but really, it's the cheapest and greenest power you're going to get.
People here complain about power cost, but really, it's the cheapest and greenest power you're going to get.
3
Nice piece, Goldy. Do you think that your arguments are persuasive to them, though? I don't know if they'll look at your reasoning and say, "How reasonable and objective, I guess our own aggregate behavior has spelled our own doom over the years." What will it take to make them realize that in this case they're being hypocritically unreasonable?
4
Great first post. But the cynic in me agrees with #3 in that I think you could show this article to a Pend Oreille resident and they'd see the argument as socialist legerdemain.
5
Welcome Goldy-- this is a great piece, and an issue that probably not many Seattleites are aware of, compared to the MOHAI pissing match for example.
6
Hey SLOG master - hows about adding horsesass.org to your blog roll, which currently has zero (0) local political blogs?
7
@3 Nothing short of the death of their towns, and maybe not even that. I was in Odessa, WA over the weekend; the folks there acknowledge that the town is dying out, but they aren't even close to making the realization that the only reason they existed in the first place was due to massive government investment of one kind or another.
8
Thunderbird @3,
Well, I don't expect them to be reading Slog, but I suspect our own media and politicos do, so my real objective at this time when the GOP and their surrogates on the ed boards are urging a substantial shrinking of government is to remind decision makers of how much our economy relies on public investment.
Also, it doesn't hurt to somewhat rehabilitate the term "socialism" at least to the point where one can reasonably discuss its positive applications. You know... remind folks that there's something to the left of "liberalism."
Well, I don't expect them to be reading Slog, but I suspect our own media and politicos do, so my real objective at this time when the GOP and their surrogates on the ed boards are urging a substantial shrinking of government is to remind decision makers of how much our economy relies on public investment.
Also, it doesn't hurt to somewhat rehabilitate the term "socialism" at least to the point where one can reasonably discuss its positive applications. You know... remind folks that there's something to the left of "liberalism."
10
I think it's great to see Goldy here on Slog, but what would be even greater is if they could see this article over there in Pend Oreille. "Welfare queens" ought to go down pretty well.
The truth is, the whole paradigm is under attack from the right wing, but not only is public investment a good idea, it's especially good for remote rural areas. If you want to take 1918 or 1932 as the year that everything went to hell, according to the Tea Party kooks, you should really take a look at what life was like in those places then. Electricity? Weren't none. That came with the socialist Rural Electrification Administration. Those people would still be eating mud and dying at 40 if it wasn't for socialism.
The idea then was not just to help people rural areas. It was to help ALL OF US by bringing us closer together. The cost to urban areas was well worth it, to bring everybody into the modern world, no matter how far out in the sticks they were. That social contract has in many ways been broken, and if they break the agreements as well everyone will suffer. But the people in the sticks will suffer a lot more.
Your point about the school levies just burns me up. Stupid bastards. Stupid ungrateful freeloading rich old people.
The truth is, the whole paradigm is under attack from the right wing, but not only is public investment a good idea, it's especially good for remote rural areas. If you want to take 1918 or 1932 as the year that everything went to hell, according to the Tea Party kooks, you should really take a look at what life was like in those places then. Electricity? Weren't none. That came with the socialist Rural Electrification Administration. Those people would still be eating mud and dying at 40 if it wasn't for socialism.
The idea then was not just to help people rural areas. It was to help ALL OF US by bringing us closer together. The cost to urban areas was well worth it, to bring everybody into the modern world, no matter how far out in the sticks they were. That social contract has in many ways been broken, and if they break the agreements as well everyone will suffer. But the people in the sticks will suffer a lot more.
Your point about the school levies just burns me up. Stupid bastards. Stupid ungrateful freeloading rich old people.
11
Pend Oreille has natural resources we need and a tax base unwilling to pay for the local services they demand. Their elected officials did well to stiff us best they could to keep things running in spite of the dolts they pledged to serve. I don't see how either side could have done any different.
12
You know, it's these same backwoods, lazy ass welfare queen tax sucks that scream bloody murder about hard working, tax paying "illegal" immigrants. I'll take the "illegals" over these cheapskate, toothless fucktards any day.
13
@10 do you think those seniors pull a Social Security check? Do you think they realize that today's kids are paying for tomorrow's benefits? Do you think they see a connection between educating kids today so they can get their check tomorrow?
I'm thinking no.
I'm thinking no.
14
Wonderful first post from Goldy. Good to see him on Slog, but just as good to see that HorsesAss will remain HorsesAss.
I have to agree with Thunderbird @3 and Mattini @4. As damning as Goldy's argument is, it would hardly be convincing to people in Pend Oreille County. There's a famous quote by the late senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, "You're entitled to your own opinions, but you're not entitled to your own facts." Well, American politics today should put the lie to that. In a democracy, voters are entitled to their own facts, however ridiculous, and those "facts" are driven entirely by their opinions.
Sadly, the only way to change those opinions is to change our culture. There's a rot at the heart of our national culture, and it's not unique to this nation's rural areas. It's this libertarian, "every man for himself and his family" myth we've been spoonfed.
I'm reminded of a provocative interview MSNBC's Dylan Ratigan had with a UC Berkeley professor who'd written an apology to his students for the country they were inheriting.
I have to agree with Thunderbird @3 and Mattini @4. As damning as Goldy's argument is, it would hardly be convincing to people in Pend Oreille County. There's a famous quote by the late senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, "You're entitled to your own opinions, but you're not entitled to your own facts." Well, American politics today should put the lie to that. In a democracy, voters are entitled to their own facts, however ridiculous, and those "facts" are driven entirely by their opinions.
Sadly, the only way to change those opinions is to change our culture. There's a rot at the heart of our national culture, and it's not unique to this nation's rural areas. It's this libertarian, "every man for himself and his family" myth we've been spoonfed.
I'm reminded of a provocative interview MSNBC's Dylan Ratigan had with a UC Berkeley professor who'd written an apology to his students for the country they were inheriting.
16
So, $1.4 million for "impact fees." I'm trying to figure out what that impact is. Creating millions of dollars of waterfront, flood-managed property. Providing practically free power. Creating a reason for tourists to visit, let alone for anyone to even live there. Yes, I can see how that requires compensation.
17
That the rightful owners (taxpayers) of a paticular resource realize the benefits of tapping that resource without sacrificing a huge percentage of it to the free-market model in profits is labelled 'socialism' and 'bad' is beyond comprehension. Who the fuck convinced everyone this was the way to go?
18
It's an interesting post, but calling residents of Pend Oreille County "welfare queens" really doesn't do anything except make some folks feel smug, and others feel justified in their belief that they are looked down upon. It's the opposite of "speak softly and carry a big stick." The more effective approach would be to have the State Legislature pass a law that prevents this kind of shakedown. Dress it up in some kind of pious statement regarding the need to keep electricity rates low so businesses won't become uncompetitive and be forced to lay off workers. Have the Chamber of Commerce sign on. Liberals are going to have to figure out how to save what little budget is left for our own priorities because guess what? we can no longer afford to care about the rural poor as long as they are voting for right-wing idiots. Think government is the problem? Great, we'll get government off your back.
19
Publicly-owned power companies provide a superior service to their private-sector rivals. When the private sector is trusted with the management of municipal power supplies it ends up looking like Enron; Charging higher prices for inferior services and swindling their customers at every opportunity.
20
I think in this case the term should be re-branded as "welfare cowboys", i.e. people who live in rural areas who think they're still completely independent homesteaders from the 1880's, and haven't cottoned to the fact that their entire existence would have died out decades ago, if not for the largess they receive from the same gubbamint they so despise.
23
The United States puritan rural past that continues to infuse its narrow, intolerant view of 'outsider' ways and beliefs into the body politic by leveraging an innate anxiety and guilt (which propagates across the political spectrum) positing that lives lived in cosmopolitan urban centers are incapable themselves of locating a valid moral center. Rather, only rural and agrarian existences fantasized to be somehow analogous to the early, out-rightly theocratic communities that pioneered this continent for Europeans can embody and inculcate such values for the rest of us.
Ergo, the disproportionate hold rural America holds over the politics of the purse string, their sacred-cow status that equates their economic neglect with moral straying justifying their subsidization and which gives their critiques of 'city folk' and 'city ways' the weight of unquestionable moral truth.
Largely urban-centered liberalism continues to suffer from such rurally induced and baseless guilt which, until it throws it off, will continue to immobilize us before a fantasy of purity that never existed and a model of self-sufficiency never proven sustainable, as Goldy's piece at least adjacently implies.
Ergo, the disproportionate hold rural America holds over the politics of the purse string, their sacred-cow status that equates their economic neglect with moral straying justifying their subsidization and which gives their critiques of 'city folk' and 'city ways' the weight of unquestionable moral truth.
Largely urban-centered liberalism continues to suffer from such rurally induced and baseless guilt which, until it throws it off, will continue to immobilize us before a fantasy of purity that never existed and a model of self-sufficiency never proven sustainable, as Goldy's piece at least adjacently implies.
24
Goldy, good to see you here. I always love your writing but still haven't slid HA into my blog roll. Now I don't have to. (Although it had made it into my bookmarks toolbar, but that doesn't mean I'll remember to click it.)
Great point, and I love the term welfare cowboys. But I also think some level of outreach has to be made to the great welfare cowboys of yore to explain to them why ... they are wrong.
Great point, and I love the term welfare cowboys. But I also think some level of outreach has to be made to the great welfare cowboys of yore to explain to them why ... they are wrong.
25
Fuck the 1700s and 1800s and for that matter, fuck the 1900s. Nothing but stains on the human spirit and misery throughout, and the sooner ideals carried forward from those eras (the Constitution itself aside) the better off we'll be.
More importantly, maybe it's time that states and counties begin to lock down their funding. If all these bedroom and rural communities really do think Seattle (or NYC, or LA, or Boston, or Miami, or {insert metro}) are burning them and leeching off them, let's cut them off. I'd love to see how King County, Pierce, Snohomish, Yakima or wherever do without our tax money. Or let's see how Mississipi and Haley Barbour do without that fat Federal money.
More importantly, maybe it's time that states and counties begin to lock down their funding. If all these bedroom and rural communities really do think Seattle (or NYC, or LA, or Boston, or Miami, or {insert metro}) are burning them and leeching off them, let's cut them off. I'd love to see how King County, Pierce, Snohomish, Yakima or wherever do without our tax money. Or let's see how Mississipi and Haley Barbour do without that fat Federal money.
26
Time for us to form Green State with one county - Sealth County.
Then watch them suddenly realize how much we've been subsidizing them for all these years.
Then watch them suddenly realize how much we've been subsidizing them for all these years.
27
Thing is Will, I'm not at all certain they'd "realize" anything of the sort. Instead, I imagine they'd continue to watch in impotent confusion at the inexorable crumbling of their way of life and continue to blame us "Godless big-city libruls" for its demise.
The only difference being of course, that just for once, they'd actually be right...
The only difference being of course, that just for once, they'd actually be right...
28
20% of Pend d'Oreille Co. is on food stamps. 35% of children.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/…
24% of employment is Government. 1 out of every 4 jobs. 18% of the residents are below the poverty line. Lots of radon, too.
http://www.city-data.com/county/Pend_Ore…
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/…
24% of employment is Government. 1 out of every 4 jobs. 18% of the residents are below the poverty line. Lots of radon, too.
http://www.city-data.com/county/Pend_Ore…
31
So, taxpayers from 1964 are responsible for you lazy ass GenXers getting to charge your Droids at bargain rates.
And yet you begrudge the Swedish geezers of Washington their $250 a week social security?
No shame....no shame...
32
Ruler @31,
To be clear, I don't begrudge the Pend Oreille folks their subsidies. We've all gained from raising rural America out of poverty.
But I resent the fact that they resent us.
To be clear, I don't begrudge the Pend Oreille folks their subsidies. We've all gained from raising rural America out of poverty.
But I resent the fact that they resent us.
33
8: I think we need to rehabilitate socialism, too. Still, I think it's used so much nowadays (a la Nazi, communist, fascist) that perhaps we have to come up with a new way to sell it to those moderate folks we can convince without sparking aversion. I wish I knew how to do that repackaging but I don't.
34
31: love the lack of nuanced analysis and commentary. I don't think the poster ever intimated that he'd like those Swedish geezers' SS checks at all throughout his entry.
35
@31: That dam was not funded by taxpayers in 1964. Really, how stupid can you be? It was financed by the sale of electric revenue bonds, which were repaid over decades by ratepayers.
36
Granted, I am both a geek and a dork, but I find the history of City Light (and, in a larger sense, the whole NW power industry) fascinating. The early years in particular were filled with all sorts of intrigue and accusations of communism and whatnot. The franchise agreement giving City Light sole authority was only signed in the early '50's, and in the years prior, PSE and City Light competed mercilessly. A Mayor was recalled because he went up against City Light (It was a good thing, as he was a stooge)
Boundary was built in a time of great expansion, when CL was planning on raising the height of Ross Dam yet again, and building a nuclear power plant on an island in Puget Sound (neither of those things happened, of course) There was also, if I recall correctly, some shenanigans about misued construction funds and Boundary, but I don't recall the specifics.
But I do wish that the citizens of Eastern Washington would understand that their whole region is one big series of "earmarks", and that if it weren't for Grand Coulee (which is not only a hydro-electric project, but also a massive irrigation system) their area would be desolate..
Boundary was built in a time of great expansion, when CL was planning on raising the height of Ross Dam yet again, and building a nuclear power plant on an island in Puget Sound (neither of those things happened, of course) There was also, if I recall correctly, some shenanigans about misued construction funds and Boundary, but I don't recall the specifics.
But I do wish that the citizens of Eastern Washington would understand that their whole region is one big series of "earmarks", and that if it weren't for Grand Coulee (which is not only a hydro-electric project, but also a massive irrigation system) their area would be desolate..
37
Give a man a fish and he's fed for a day.
Give a conservative a stipend and he wastes it all on guns and booze. And then he whines cause he spent all the fish money.
Give a conservative a stipend and he wastes it all on guns and booze. And then he whines cause he spent all the fish money.
38
God, I hope the cretins who infest HA don't follow Goldy over here. There are some serious halfwits commenting on threads over there (I suppose because it isn't really moderated).
40
@38 When I saw this post by Goldy, my first thought was "oh no, here come the HA trolls." But I must say, this comment thread is one of the most intelligent and well-behaved of any Slog post I've read. Congrats Goldy, for your excellent post, and for bringing out the best in Slog commenters!
41
Didn't this asshole originate from the same site as Will Kelley-Kamp. Didn't the Stranger learn anything???
42
Your offhand remark: "when was the last time Seattle voters rejected a school levy or bond measure?" may wind up being strangely prophetic: the supplemental levy on the ballot this fall for Seattle Public Schools may well fail, largely because of infuriated SPS 'customers' who now see that the bulk of that money will vanish into the gluttonous maw of central administration, and never reach a classroom. I've never voted against a school levy in my life, but I'm voting against this one - and I HAVE kids in SPS.
43
A worthy followup would be to look at Pend Oreille PUD's Box Canyon Dam (which also delivers electricity to Seattle) and the devastating effects it has had on the Pend Oreille River and the Kalispel Tribe as it flows through the Kalispel Indian Reservation upstream of the dam.
44
@42 I know some SPS teachers who are voting against this latest levy.
This has definitely piqued my interest in City Light history and some of the political ramifications of past actions.
This has definitely piqued my interest in City Light history and some of the political ramifications of past actions.
45
@44, one of my favorite pieces of CL history is this one, where the utility attempts theatre, with the Times and PI blowing gaskets.
http://historylink.org/index.cfm?Display…
http://historylink.org/index.cfm?Display…
47
WHOA! I Live And Work Here In North Pend Oreille County And We Are Far From Being "Welfare Queens"(I Make About +80,000.00 Per Year)...Our Community Is Far From Being (And I Quote From A Few Articles Above) "Toothless Back Woods Queen Of The Welfare Community In Our Great State"...This Article That You Posted Is VERY MISSLEADING! Get Your Facts Straight Mr Goldy...Yes This Is A Retirement Community, And Someday I Hope To Retire Here Myself. Do You Have Something Against The Older Generation?
For One,. WE DO NOT GET ANY OF OUR POWER FROM BOUNDARY DAM! We Get ALL Of Our Power From Box Canyon Dam...As For The Lake (Sullivan Lake) It Is A Very Beautiful Recreational Place(Thank You), But That Is Manned By The State Government Forest Service. We Do Not Get Any Money From It. In Fact People From All Over The USA & Beyond Enjoy Its Beauty, Fishing & Boating. We Have To Pay Just Like Everybody Else If We Want To Camp & Enjoy Its Beauty There...
I Bet Dollar For Dollar Per Capita, There Are Far More Welfare Cases In Your "Neck Of The Woods"...What's That? No Woods, Well That's What Happens When You Have To Accommodate Large Populations With Housing...So Is It So Wrong That We Want To Preserve Our Forest & Wild Life For Everyone To Share And Enjoy For Many Years To Come? Yes! We Welcome Everyone To Enjoy And Share In Our Beauty & Recreational Areas. We Are Not Snobs, This Is A Very Friendly Community...When Was The Last Time You Drove Through Your City, And A Neighbor Weather You Knew Them Or Not Waved To You? That Is A Very Common Practice Here.
Bottom Line Is, You Are Welcome To Come And Visit And Use The Same Lakes, Rivers And Streams We Have...Just In Return, Why Would It Be Fare For You To Reap Profits From Our Resources And We Get Nothing In Return? That's Like Saying You Have Two Homes, Why Would You Charge People If You Rented One Out..Why Not Let Them Live There Free Of Charge? After All You Have Two...Get My Point? Or Do I Have To S-P-E-L-L It Out To You Mr. Goldy..."DUH"... Now! Do Some Meaningful Investigation Get Your Facts Right And Tell These People That Are Reading Your Blog/Article How You Misinformed Them, Then Tell Them The Truth!
More...
For One,. WE DO NOT GET ANY OF OUR POWER FROM BOUNDARY DAM! We Get ALL Of Our Power From Box Canyon Dam...As For The Lake (Sullivan Lake) It Is A Very Beautiful Recreational Place(Thank You), But That Is Manned By The State Government Forest Service. We Do Not Get Any Money From It. In Fact People From All Over The USA & Beyond Enjoy Its Beauty, Fishing & Boating. We Have To Pay Just Like Everybody Else If We Want To Camp & Enjoy Its Beauty There...
I Bet Dollar For Dollar Per Capita, There Are Far More Welfare Cases In Your "Neck Of The Woods"...What's That? No Woods, Well That's What Happens When You Have To Accommodate Large Populations With Housing...So Is It So Wrong That We Want To Preserve Our Forest & Wild Life For Everyone To Share And Enjoy For Many Years To Come? Yes! We Welcome Everyone To Enjoy And Share In Our Beauty & Recreational Areas. We Are Not Snobs, This Is A Very Friendly Community...When Was The Last Time You Drove Through Your City, And A Neighbor Weather You Knew Them Or Not Waved To You? That Is A Very Common Practice Here.
Bottom Line Is, You Are Welcome To Come And Visit And Use The Same Lakes, Rivers And Streams We Have...Just In Return, Why Would It Be Fare For You To Reap Profits From Our Resources And We Get Nothing In Return? That's Like Saying You Have Two Homes, Why Would You Charge People If You Rented One Out..Why Not Let Them Live There Free Of Charge? After All You Have Two...Get My Point? Or Do I Have To S-P-E-L-L It Out To You Mr. Goldy..."DUH"... Now! Do Some Meaningful Investigation Get Your Facts Right And Tell These People That Are Reading Your Blog/Article How You Misinformed Them, Then Tell Them The Truth!
48
WHOA! I Live And Work Here In North Pend Oreille County And We Are Far From Being "Welfare Queens"...Our Community Is Far From Being (And I Quote From A Few Articles Above) "Toothless Back Woods Queen Of Th...e Welfare Community In Our Grea......t State"...This Article That You Posted Is VERY MISSLEADING! Get Your Facts Straight Mr Goldy...Yes This Is A Retirement Community, And Someday I Hope To Retire Here Myself. Do You Have Something Against The Older Generation?
For One,. WE DO NOT GET ANY OF OUR POWER FROM BOUNDARY DAM! We Get ALL Of Our Power From Box Canyon Dam...As For The Lake (Sullivan Lake) It Is A Very Beautiful Recreational Place(Thank You), But That Is Manned By The State Government Forest Service. We Do Not Get Any Money From It. In Fact People From All Over The USA & Beyond Enjoy Its Beauty, Fishing & Boating. We Have To Pay Just Like Everybody Else If We Want To Camp & Enjoy Its Beauty There...
I Bet Dollar For Dollar Per Capita, There Are Far More Welfare Cases In Your "Neck Of The Woods"...What's That? No Woods, Well That's What Happens When You Have To Accommodate Large Populations With Housing...So Is It So Wrong That We Want To Preserve Our Forest & Wild Life For Everyone To Share And Enjoy For Many Years To Come? Yes! We Welcome Everyone To Enjoy And Share In Our Beauty & Recreational Areas. We Are Not Snobs, This Is A Very Friendly Community...When Was The Last Time You Drove Through Your City, And A Neighbor Weather You Knew Them Or Not Waved To You? That Is A Very Common Practice Here.
Bottom Line Is, You Are Welcome To Come And Visit And Use The Same Lakes, Rivers And Streams We Have...Just In Return, Why Would It Be Fare For You To Reap Profits From Our Resources And We Get Nothing In Return? That's Like Saying You Have Two Homes, Why Would You Charge People If You Rented One Out..Why Not Let Them Live There Free Of Charge? After All You Have Two...Get My Point? Or Do I Have To S-P-E-L-L It Out To You Mr. Goldy..."DUH"... Now! Do Some Meaningful Investigation Get Your Facts Right And Tell These People That Are Reading Your Blog/Article How You Misinformed Them, Then Tell Them The Truth!See More
More...
For One,. WE DO NOT GET ANY OF OUR POWER FROM BOUNDARY DAM! We Get ALL Of Our Power From Box Canyon Dam...As For The Lake (Sullivan Lake) It Is A Very Beautiful Recreational Place(Thank You), But That Is Manned By The State Government Forest Service. We Do Not Get Any Money From It. In Fact People From All Over The USA & Beyond Enjoy Its Beauty, Fishing & Boating. We Have To Pay Just Like Everybody Else If We Want To Camp & Enjoy Its Beauty There...
I Bet Dollar For Dollar Per Capita, There Are Far More Welfare Cases In Your "Neck Of The Woods"...What's That? No Woods, Well That's What Happens When You Have To Accommodate Large Populations With Housing...So Is It So Wrong That We Want To Preserve Our Forest & Wild Life For Everyone To Share And Enjoy For Many Years To Come? Yes! We Welcome Everyone To Enjoy And Share In Our Beauty & Recreational Areas. We Are Not Snobs, This Is A Very Friendly Community...When Was The Last Time You Drove Through Your City, And A Neighbor Weather You Knew Them Or Not Waved To You? That Is A Very Common Practice Here.
Bottom Line Is, You Are Welcome To Come And Visit And Use The Same Lakes, Rivers And Streams We Have...Just In Return, Why Would It Be Fare For You To Reap Profits From Our Resources And We Get Nothing In Return? That's Like Saying You Have Two Homes, Why Would You Charge People If You Rented One Out..Why Not Let Them Live There Free Of Charge? After All You Have Two...Get My Point? Or Do I Have To S-P-E-L-L It Out To You Mr. Goldy..."DUH"... Now! Do Some Meaningful Investigation Get Your Facts Right And Tell These People That Are Reading Your Blog/Article How You Misinformed Them, Then Tell Them The Truth!See More
50
For those of you who think Pend Oreille is some sort of desolate wasteland, I say to you, NUTS! I might suggest actually traveling there before you make such assertions. Pend Oreille has forests of Fir, Pine, Tamarack, and Cedar with nicely meadowed valleys. Try using Google Maps and have a look.
As for the economy of the county, the demise of the timber and mining industries has had a very large impact on family incomes. Due to the fact that young people generally have to move away to find good jobs, there is a huge hole in the demographic of the area. The older folks of the Puget Sound area vote their pocket books as ours do, yours just form a smaller percentage of the overall population making it easier to spend tax dollars on things meant for younger people (schools).
For those of you who think that rural areas are a complete waste of time, try finding something to eat that didn’t originate, at least in some way, from a rural place. WE MAKE YOUR FOOD! In addition, where do you suppose all the source materials for closed carbon loop bio-fuels come from? It sure ain’t Gasworks Park.
Another bone I have to pick with this article, and many of the comments posted here, is this characterization of people living on this side of the Cascades as being some species of Toothless Neanderthal Dittoheads that would rather drink Bud and breed with our closest blood relatives than have a coherent conversation. The PC liberal mantra coming from urban areas is generally geared toward not stereotyping people and groups while treating all as they deserve to be treated. I happen to be an educated man and I know many well educated people who think that Greater Seattle area tends to be a bit full of self importance. If you truly believed in liberal/socialist principles, the phrase, “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need,” should have special meaning for you. Wouldn’t the disadvantaged rural people have the need while you rich urban dwellers have the ability? Something to think about…
More...
As for the economy of the county, the demise of the timber and mining industries has had a very large impact on family incomes. Due to the fact that young people generally have to move away to find good jobs, there is a huge hole in the demographic of the area. The older folks of the Puget Sound area vote their pocket books as ours do, yours just form a smaller percentage of the overall population making it easier to spend tax dollars on things meant for younger people (schools).
For those of you who think that rural areas are a complete waste of time, try finding something to eat that didn’t originate, at least in some way, from a rural place. WE MAKE YOUR FOOD! In addition, where do you suppose all the source materials for closed carbon loop bio-fuels come from? It sure ain’t Gasworks Park.
Another bone I have to pick with this article, and many of the comments posted here, is this characterization of people living on this side of the Cascades as being some species of Toothless Neanderthal Dittoheads that would rather drink Bud and breed with our closest blood relatives than have a coherent conversation. The PC liberal mantra coming from urban areas is generally geared toward not stereotyping people and groups while treating all as they deserve to be treated. I happen to be an educated man and I know many well educated people who think that Greater Seattle area tends to be a bit full of self importance. If you truly believed in liberal/socialist principles, the phrase, “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need,” should have special meaning for you. Wouldn’t the disadvantaged rural people have the need while you rich urban dwellers have the ability? Something to think about…
51
Sorry "Goldy", I don't know where you got your facts from but a few of them are more than a little wrong. I attend the high-school that is "Begging Seattle for money after the roof fell in...." Well the building you are probably referring to is the school that was used for pre-third graders and the roof did NOT cave in. Due to the heavy snow fall we have every year the roof had many leaks but the another problem was the boiler which had a FIRE while I attended. The pre-third graders now attend what was the middle school. There is simply not enough room at that location and the buildings we have now are also ATLEAST 50 years old. Another thing that you got wrong is that most of our power doesn't come from Boundary dam at all. Box Canyon Dam which is located on the Pend Oreille river before Boundary supplies our power. While Sullivan lake may draw in a few tourists, besides a stop at the grocery store or the bar, we receive NO money from it. All camp fee's and parking fees go to the forest service. Ohh and did you forget to look at a map? Sullivan lake is actually in Colville National forest which is part of Stevens county NOT Pend Oreille. Ohh and the bonds that would have allowed us to build new schools that weren't passed did you ever think there might be a reason?? So next time you write an article, please do a little more research than surfing the net.
52
47, Actually, everyone gets power from Boundary through the BPA. The line losses associated with sending electricity from there to Seattle would be intolerable, so CL sends it to the nearest BPA substation, and takes an equivalent amount of energy from BPA at one of the Seattle area substations.
Also, the original operating agreement did allow for your PUD to get power from boundary at reduced costs, and I don't think that has changed.
City Light used to be one of the largest employers in that area, but with all the automation, I don't know if that's true anymore.
Also, the original operating agreement did allow for your PUD to get power from boundary at reduced costs, and I don't think that has changed.
City Light used to be one of the largest employers in that area, but with all the automation, I don't know if that's true anymore.
55
"There is simply not enough room at that location and the buildings we have now are also ATLEAST 50 years old."
Which, frankly, is your fault for not passing the bonds you needed to build new schools. When Selkirk eventually gets Vadered, you'll have only yourselves to blame.
Which, frankly, is your fault for not passing the bonds you needed to build new schools. When Selkirk eventually gets Vadered, you'll have only yourselves to blame.
56
Let me punch some holes in this Horsesass's slog.
"recreational lake that has become a key part of its local economy" Really? You obviously know NOTHING about the Pend Orielle River or how the dam affected it. Have you ever even been here? This "recreational lake" brings NOTHING to the economy. The campground is hardly used, and at that it is usually shut down for one reason or other. The boat launch is hardly ever used, and if it is, it is used primarily by locals. On any given day there will be ZERO people using this "recreational lake".
"enrollment has plummeted" - that is because over the last 40 years the economy has plummetted in the area and lot of people were forced to move...jackass!
"seven local bond measures have failed." because they were poorly written or had parts in them people did not like so they did not vote for them.
"when was the last time Seattle voters rejected a school levy or bond measure" show me a Seattle voter that doesnt like voting in new taxes....
"Part of Pend Oreille's problem is that inexpensive recreational waterfront real estate has attracted retirees to the area" - trying to use this "reacreational lake" idea again...wow, again you proove you know NOTHING about the area. The area of this "recreational lake" that Boundary Dam made has 90% sheer cliff where no housing can even go. And it is also only these retirees (quite a few from California and Seattle) who can afford to pay the property taxes on the waterfront property because of all the "Seattle voters" who like to increase our property taxes.
"cheap, wholesale electricity" the reason electricity is so cheap there is because the public owns its own hydroelectric dam...that would be Box Canyon Dam which is owned by the areas Public Utility District.
"Pend Oreille has always been one of the biggest welfare queens in the state" that is because of all the stupid regulations the tree huggers in Seattle pass that causes the loss of jobs everywhere else. The area had to shut down its lumber mill because the increased regulations on logging in this state made it too expensive and thus that mill had a hard time turning profit. It became cheaper to import lumber from another country than to harvest it locally. Because of all the tree huggers in our country causing more and more regulation it becomes cheaper to import natural resources from less regulated countries. Which is one reason the local zinc mine stopped production because the cheap imports drove the price of zinc down so much the mine was losing money.
You want to talk about returns on investment? How about the gas taxes we spend over on the Eastern side of the state primarily be used for projects in the Western side of the state? How about when the Kingdome when first put in it increased the lodging tax over the entire state. How does a hotel in Spokane benefit from a football stadium in Seattle??? Why did the lodging tax in Spokane have to be increased to help pay for the Kingdome?
How about the "Seattle voters" who were the ones primarily responsible for changing to way people can hunt cougar and bears? That hurt Pend Oreille County because hunting was a way to bring people in to spend money in the county. Those same voters are also the first to complain about animal attacks too...oh Im sorry, did that law cause an increase in population so now when you went camping fifi got eaten by Mr Puma?
And Seattle City Light makes money off Boundary Dam hand-over-fist, the PO County is just getting what it deserves! Id rather live in PO County with its fresh air and clean water than in Seattle any day.
More...
"recreational lake that has become a key part of its local economy" Really? You obviously know NOTHING about the Pend Orielle River or how the dam affected it. Have you ever even been here? This "recreational lake" brings NOTHING to the economy. The campground is hardly used, and at that it is usually shut down for one reason or other. The boat launch is hardly ever used, and if it is, it is used primarily by locals. On any given day there will be ZERO people using this "recreational lake".
"enrollment has plummeted" - that is because over the last 40 years the economy has plummetted in the area and lot of people were forced to move...jackass!
"seven local bond measures have failed." because they were poorly written or had parts in them people did not like so they did not vote for them.
"when was the last time Seattle voters rejected a school levy or bond measure" show me a Seattle voter that doesnt like voting in new taxes....
"Part of Pend Oreille's problem is that inexpensive recreational waterfront real estate has attracted retirees to the area" - trying to use this "reacreational lake" idea again...wow, again you proove you know NOTHING about the area. The area of this "recreational lake" that Boundary Dam made has 90% sheer cliff where no housing can even go. And it is also only these retirees (quite a few from California and Seattle) who can afford to pay the property taxes on the waterfront property because of all the "Seattle voters" who like to increase our property taxes.
"cheap, wholesale electricity" the reason electricity is so cheap there is because the public owns its own hydroelectric dam...that would be Box Canyon Dam which is owned by the areas Public Utility District.
"Pend Oreille has always been one of the biggest welfare queens in the state" that is because of all the stupid regulations the tree huggers in Seattle pass that causes the loss of jobs everywhere else. The area had to shut down its lumber mill because the increased regulations on logging in this state made it too expensive and thus that mill had a hard time turning profit. It became cheaper to import lumber from another country than to harvest it locally. Because of all the tree huggers in our country causing more and more regulation it becomes cheaper to import natural resources from less regulated countries. Which is one reason the local zinc mine stopped production because the cheap imports drove the price of zinc down so much the mine was losing money.
You want to talk about returns on investment? How about the gas taxes we spend over on the Eastern side of the state primarily be used for projects in the Western side of the state? How about when the Kingdome when first put in it increased the lodging tax over the entire state. How does a hotel in Spokane benefit from a football stadium in Seattle??? Why did the lodging tax in Spokane have to be increased to help pay for the Kingdome?
How about the "Seattle voters" who were the ones primarily responsible for changing to way people can hunt cougar and bears? That hurt Pend Oreille County because hunting was a way to bring people in to spend money in the county. Those same voters are also the first to complain about animal attacks too...oh Im sorry, did that law cause an increase in population so now when you went camping fifi got eaten by Mr Puma?
And Seattle City Light makes money off Boundary Dam hand-over-fist, the PO County is just getting what it deserves! Id rather live in PO County with its fresh air and clean water than in Seattle any day.
57
@53, yeah your whole article was done for nothing more than to provoke which Im sure is why your home website is horsesass. You are nothing but an internet troll.
58
@51, Sullivan Lake is in PO County but it has nothing do to with Boundary Dam. The Colville National Forest covers both Stevens and PO County. The recreational lake Goldy was referring to was caused by the backwater the dam created. There is an actual name for the lake the dam created but nobody in the area calls it by that name. To us it is just part of the PO River. It is just like Lake Roosevelt that was created by Grand Coulee Dam.
And 50 is correct, 90% of the high school graduates leave the area to attend college to never move back, or simply just move away to find work. The mine and saw mill closed, there was a cement plant but the company that owned it (not located in our state) felt it was more cost effective to sell the entire plant to a company in china than it was to pay to upgrade the plant to meet current regulatory standards. They dismantled the plant into various pieces and parts and shipped it over to china.
And 50 is correct, 90% of the high school graduates leave the area to attend college to never move back, or simply just move away to find work. The mine and saw mill closed, there was a cement plant but the company that owned it (not located in our state) felt it was more cost effective to sell the entire plant to a company in china than it was to pay to upgrade the plant to meet current regulatory standards. They dismantled the plant into various pieces and parts and shipped it over to china.
60
@36 and 39...funny how everything east of the cascades is "eastern washington" grand coulee is technically in CENTRAL washington....look at a map will ya? Coullee isnt THAT big of an irrigation project either.
@16...look up Z Canyon because that is what 90% of the backwater area created by Boundary Dam is...CANYON...no multimillion dollar anything..and the dam does very little for tourism. The "flood-managed" areas created by Boundary Dam are mostly vertical cliffs. The impact? hellifIknow, im not an ecologist but what should have happened is that instead of SCL putting in a dam for their own profit it should have been another PUD dam so you all could bitch and cry over us charging you triple the price.....
@16...look up Z Canyon because that is what 90% of the backwater area created by Boundary Dam is...CANYON...no multimillion dollar anything..and the dam does very little for tourism. The "flood-managed" areas created by Boundary Dam are mostly vertical cliffs. The impact? hellifIknow, im not an ecologist but what should have happened is that instead of SCL putting in a dam for their own profit it should have been another PUD dam so you all could bitch and cry over us charging you triple the price.....
61
Yeah Ruthven78, Unfortunately he forgot to mention that our last M&O levy for the school past. With rousing success. Also that the school that SCL built here was designed for an area like Seattle that gets little to no snowfall. Where we get upwards of 100 inches. The poor design of this facility has contributed to the roof failing, not lack of maintenance. Also for people here being on welfare and food stamps. Well since the mine shut down, 185 more or less people out of work in a community that boasts 3 towns the largest of which has 500 residents. Add to that the lumber mills closing and slowing. Laying of people right and left. You are talking a very high percentage of unemployed people. Since there is little else for employment here many have moved and some have stuck it out. Yes we get discounted electricity however I bet that our winter heating bills are still comparable to Seattlites. If the state has its way our property taxes will become such that no one will afford tp live here. Tell me that Seattles Prop. Tax double last year because mine did and I know several people who have water front property whose taxes tripled.
I have lived in larger cities Tucson and Phoenix, but never have I lived among a group of nicer or harder working people that those that live here in Eastern Washington. Here we treat people with respect and kindness. Not contempt and hatefulness. Had any of you who hate us backwoods rednecks ever been here you would know that.
I have lived in larger cities Tucson and Phoenix, but never have I lived among a group of nicer or harder working people that those that live here in Eastern Washington. Here we treat people with respect and kindness. Not contempt and hatefulness. Had any of you who hate us backwoods rednecks ever been here you would know that.
62
Also the roof never fell in at any of our schools to my knowledge. Get the facts straight please.
63
There is a bit of truth all mixed up in both Goldy's post and his detractors here in the thread. Kinda fun to watch. Oh god are we going to have a "we need each other" moment??? I swear if Eastern Washington voters could pull their heads out of their asses, and Western Washington voters could pull the sticks out of theirs, we might all just live in a better place.
Bean - in the Tri-Cities.
Bean - in the Tri-Cities.
64
"Unfortunately he forgot to mention that our last M&O levy for the school past."
Just in time, huh? Apparently, some of the residents there haven't learned how to spell.
Just in time, huh? Apparently, some of the residents there haven't learned how to spell.
65
@59 that's cause you need a long rifle to shoot someone over there. Here handguns work fairly well.
66
@ 43 (Palousian) Just to clarify, Pend Oreille's PUD dam is a run of the river dam. There is no reservoir, therefore it has not changed the course of the river from the dam to the south of of the county (the river flows north). Boundary Dam (SCL) is the dam that has changed the course of the river.
-Former North Pend Oreille County Resident.
-Former North Pend Oreille County Resident.
67
@ 64 Come on now, lol.
On a good note, the students of Selkirk (the school district with the supposed caving in roof) have learned to read and write. They pass the WASL (or whichever the newly changed name of the assessment is) in the reading and writing sections (96% I believe) which is vastly higher percentages (nearly 20% higher) than the state average. And the school has received numerous awards, including a US News nod for being one of America's 100 best high schools, etc. etc. etc. Bottom line, the school has been one of the largest reasons community members from the north end of the county have been pushing for the impact payments from SCL. If anything, the residents want to find a way to make sure the children of the county are given better opportunities and unfortunately, increasing their tax dollars to fund a multi-million dollar facelift on a school may not be an option at this time, considering how greatly the economy has impacted the county. Especially the north end, which recently lost one of its largest employers. I graduated in 2005 and I can't even count the number days my friends and I huddled around the few heaters in the hallways during hard winters at close-to-zero temperatures, and that's just one example (there are MANY) of the building inadequacies. You can't install a new heating/ac system on a M&O levy. We used to travel to schools in areas larger than ours (which there are obviously many) and most of the high schools seemed like shopping malls compared to the single hallway building I spent 7-12th grade in. Why shouldn't a smaller district receive a facility of those standards? Though this information may seem irrelevent to many of you and your viewpoints, I hope it illustrates the enormous deficits our state faces in overall quality of education and yes, a school building is an integral factor in making a quality education. I have seem MANY high schools across the state that are in the same condition as Selkirk High School. And I hope it may garner some compassion/empathy or what-have-you from those of that believe in the triumph of "socialism". The inviduals pushing for these impact payments are doing what they can to improve the livelihood, namely children, in the county. I consider myself liberal/socialist (if you so choose to interchange the terms) and not believing in the betterment of the state and each of its counties and schools as a whole goes against my liberal ideals.
More...
On a good note, the students of Selkirk (the school district with the supposed caving in roof) have learned to read and write. They pass the WASL (or whichever the newly changed name of the assessment is) in the reading and writing sections (96% I believe) which is vastly higher percentages (nearly 20% higher) than the state average. And the school has received numerous awards, including a US News nod for being one of America's 100 best high schools, etc. etc. etc. Bottom line, the school has been one of the largest reasons community members from the north end of the county have been pushing for the impact payments from SCL. If anything, the residents want to find a way to make sure the children of the county are given better opportunities and unfortunately, increasing their tax dollars to fund a multi-million dollar facelift on a school may not be an option at this time, considering how greatly the economy has impacted the county. Especially the north end, which recently lost one of its largest employers. I graduated in 2005 and I can't even count the number days my friends and I huddled around the few heaters in the hallways during hard winters at close-to-zero temperatures, and that's just one example (there are MANY) of the building inadequacies. You can't install a new heating/ac system on a M&O levy. We used to travel to schools in areas larger than ours (which there are obviously many) and most of the high schools seemed like shopping malls compared to the single hallway building I spent 7-12th grade in. Why shouldn't a smaller district receive a facility of those standards? Though this information may seem irrelevent to many of you and your viewpoints, I hope it illustrates the enormous deficits our state faces in overall quality of education and yes, a school building is an integral factor in making a quality education. I have seem MANY high schools across the state that are in the same condition as Selkirk High School. And I hope it may garner some compassion/empathy or what-have-you from those of that believe in the triumph of "socialism". The inviduals pushing for these impact payments are doing what they can to improve the livelihood, namely children, in the county. I consider myself liberal/socialist (if you so choose to interchange the terms) and not believing in the betterment of the state and each of its counties and schools as a whole goes against my liberal ideals.
68
To the Pend Oreille defenders in this thread...
Are you really telling me that scenic and recreational water attractions are not one of your county's biggest assets? People retire there, why?
Pend Oreille is beautiful country, and whatever its other impacts, Boundary Dam adds to that.
And as for the school's roof falling in, yes, that was obviously intentional hyperbole. But I provide the quote that talks about the roof leaking, so I think most folks get the reference.
Are you really telling me that scenic and recreational water attractions are not one of your county's biggest assets? People retire there, why?
Pend Oreille is beautiful country, and whatever its other impacts, Boundary Dam adds to that.
And as for the school's roof falling in, yes, that was obviously intentional hyperbole. But I provide the quote that talks about the roof leaking, so I think most folks get the reference.
70
Pend Oreille commenters:
I grew up in Stevens County, live in Seattle now, last visited Pend Oreille County in about April this year, and as always I loved it. It's one of my very favorite parts of the state. I like your mountains even better than the Cascades. In a lot of ways I would be happier living there than here. I mean, specific places I drove past last spring (and I don't mean big houses or lakefront properties) still pop into my mind from time to time now, and I think about how much I'd like to live there. There aren't many places I can say that about.
@50's description here is pretty much perfect:
"Pend Oreille has forests of Fir, Pine, Tamarack, and Cedar with nicely meadowed valleys."
--
If I could steer your attention to a couple specific things Goldy has written here, I think it would be best to directly address these points -
From the main article:
"for every dollar it paid in state and federal transportation taxes...Pend Oreille County...saw an impressive $2.58 return! That’s a $68 million subsidy over 20 years...And that's just for transportation; the numbers are similar in nearly every other category of government spending and investment."
+
from Goldy's comment @32:
"To be clear, I don't begrudge the Pend Oreille folks their subsidies. We've all gained from raising rural America out of poverty. But I resent the fact that they resent us."
--
ruthven78 @56 says "How about the gas taxes we spend over on the Eastern side of the state primarily be used for projects in the Western side of the state?"
To be honest, isn't that just exactly what Goldy was talking about when he said "today's enormous political divide between rural and urban Americans as to the proper size and scope of government is largely based on a fundamental misconception about who is subsidizing whom" ?
(See the quote just above, ruthven78, about how Pend Oreille has received $2.58 for every $1.00 paid in transportation taxes. You actually kind of have it backwards, don't you?)
When ruthven78 goes on to say "How about when the Kingdome when first put in it increased the lodging tax over the entire state", though, I can agree with the sentiment. I've never supported the idea of statewide subsidies of things like big sports arenas.
--
And Goldy, could you possibly tell us more about the part "In return, Pend Oreille County got a recreational lake that has become a key part of its local economy"?
More...
I grew up in Stevens County, live in Seattle now, last visited Pend Oreille County in about April this year, and as always I loved it. It's one of my very favorite parts of the state. I like your mountains even better than the Cascades. In a lot of ways I would be happier living there than here. I mean, specific places I drove past last spring (and I don't mean big houses or lakefront properties) still pop into my mind from time to time now, and I think about how much I'd like to live there. There aren't many places I can say that about.
@50's description here is pretty much perfect:
"Pend Oreille has forests of Fir, Pine, Tamarack, and Cedar with nicely meadowed valleys."
--
If I could steer your attention to a couple specific things Goldy has written here, I think it would be best to directly address these points -
From the main article:
"for every dollar it paid in state and federal transportation taxes...Pend Oreille County...saw an impressive $2.58 return! That’s a $68 million subsidy over 20 years...And that's just for transportation; the numbers are similar in nearly every other category of government spending and investment."
+
from Goldy's comment @32:
"To be clear, I don't begrudge the Pend Oreille folks their subsidies. We've all gained from raising rural America out of poverty. But I resent the fact that they resent us."
--
ruthven78 @56 says "How about the gas taxes we spend over on the Eastern side of the state primarily be used for projects in the Western side of the state?"
To be honest, isn't that just exactly what Goldy was talking about when he said "today's enormous political divide between rural and urban Americans as to the proper size and scope of government is largely based on a fundamental misconception about who is subsidizing whom" ?
(See the quote just above, ruthven78, about how Pend Oreille has received $2.58 for every $1.00 paid in transportation taxes. You actually kind of have it backwards, don't you?)
When ruthven78 goes on to say "How about when the Kingdome when first put in it increased the lodging tax over the entire state", though, I can agree with the sentiment. I've never supported the idea of statewide subsidies of things like big sports arenas.
--
And Goldy, could you possibly tell us more about the part "In return, Pend Oreille County got a recreational lake that has become a key part of its local economy"?
71
I used to live up there. The reservoir behind Boundary provides no real-estate opportunities. That is in the North end of the county. The vacation homes are closer to Spokane and the South end of the county.
BTW the river runs north up into Canada. Beautiful country and great place to camp. That’s about it though.
BTW the river runs north up into Canada. Beautiful country and great place to camp. That’s about it though.
72
aiff @70,
The Pend Oreille River Tourism Alliance touts Boundary Dam and its reservoir as one of its many attractions, so I took their word that it is. Boundary Dam has also been a major employer in the area.
By the way, when I talk about retirees being attracted to cheap lakefront real estate, I was talking about the county in general, not Boundary Dam in particular, but I can see how one might infer the latter.
The Pend Oreille River Tourism Alliance touts Boundary Dam and its reservoir as one of its many attractions, so I took their word that it is. Boundary Dam has also been a major employer in the area.
By the way, when I talk about retirees being attracted to cheap lakefront real estate, I was talking about the county in general, not Boundary Dam in particular, but I can see how one might infer the latter.
73
Some people have bad memories and forget to mention that Pend Oreille County was in the works to build a dam near the SCLBD site and did submit the permit process first.
The powers that be thought Seattle should have the site because they served more people and the west side of the state wanted to control their power source and not pay triple what they are currently paying to POC PUD
The powers that be thought Seattle should have the site because they served more people and the west side of the state wanted to control their power source and not pay triple what they are currently paying to POC PUD
74
Goldy you certainly paved the road to criticism. Your facts are not as concrete as your side of the state. If your local govt had to pay property tax on the value of its business property in PO County it would cost them much more than what you are whinning about. Come float the Pend Oreille River and get the facts instead of daming/damning?? the river of information and spilling excess overflow.
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