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News & ArtsFriday, September 3, 2010
Politics What Are They Doing At St. Mark's Episcopal Cathedral?
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 10:50 AM
Whatever they're doing in there, says "thoughtful conservative" Hans Zeiger, it's "hardly Christian." That goes for the people who worship at St. Mark's too. More at HA.
3
So, on top of everything else, he's an Anti-Papist as well?
Reminds me of this old joke:
I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said, "Stop! Don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!" He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well, are you religious or atheist?" He said, "Religious." I said, "Me too! Are your Christian or Buddhist?" He said, "Christian." I said, "Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?" He said, "Protestant." I said, Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist? He said, "Baptist!" I said, "Wow! Me too! Are your Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord? He said, Baptist Church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are your Original Baptist Church of God or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, heretic scum!" and pushed him off.
Reminds me of this old joke:
I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said, "Stop! Don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!" He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well, are you religious or atheist?" He said, "Religious." I said, "Me too! Are your Christian or Buddhist?" He said, "Christian." I said, "Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?" He said, "Protestant." I said, Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist? He said, "Baptist!" I said, "Wow! Me too! Are your Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord? He said, Baptist Church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are your Original Baptist Church of God or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, heretic scum!" and pushed him off.
5
Well, this is true, in that nutso fundie Protestant Christians don't consider the Catholic church to be truly Christian (they're, you know, weirdo Pope-a-holics), and the Episcopal Church in the States (Anglican here) doesn't consider itself to be a Protestant Church, it's more closely aligned with the Catholic church, except for transubstantiation. These guys really see a huge disconnect between their fundamentalist faith, and the rest of the equally fucked up Christian world...in their eyes, Catholics, Episcopalians, Church of England, all just a bunch of freaks waiting to be born again.
6
I know what they're doing over there! They're making beautiful, beautiful, sacred CHRISTIAN music with text from THE BIBLE and broadcasting it every Sunday evening over the radio where atheists or fundamentalists might accidentally hear it.
Sounds "hardly Christian" to me.
Sounds "hardly Christian" to me.
7
I think he would be anti-anti-Papist, if he's railing against St. Mark's. They're protestants, after all, and going to hell regardless.
9
they're letting the IMS Sangha meet every Tuesday. and they ain't even Christians! DESECRATION!111!!!
10
@5:
As someone who was born into the Episcopal church, I use to say, " I was born alright the first time, thank you." :-)
(Since then, I've dropped out of Christianity entirely.)
"and the Episcopal Church in the States (Anglican here) doesn't consider itself to be a Protestant Church, it's more closely aligned with the Catholic church, except for transubstantiation. "
Um, no. The Episcopal church, while there is some alignment with the Catholic church, has a MAJOR disconnect with it on very fundamental issues. And it does consider itself quite Protestant, just not THAT kind of Protestant. More on the same level of Protestantism that Lutherans are.
As someone who was born into the Episcopal church, I use to say, " I was born alright the first time, thank you." :-)
(Since then, I've dropped out of Christianity entirely.)
"and the Episcopal Church in the States (Anglican here) doesn't consider itself to be a Protestant Church, it's more closely aligned with the Catholic church, except for transubstantiation. "
Um, no. The Episcopal church, while there is some alignment with the Catholic church, has a MAJOR disconnect with it on very fundamental issues. And it does consider itself quite Protestant, just not THAT kind of Protestant. More on the same level of Protestantism that Lutherans are.
11
Sorry, it's the whole "St." thing that had me confused - I always thought non-Catholics didn't go in for that sort of thing. But then I rarely step inside any "house of worship" these days unless it's for a wedding or funeral.
12
@10 By Protestant, I meant the Protestants that broke away during the Reformation. I know the Anglican church here isn't considered to be a Protestant denomination, maybe it's different in the States, but this is what I remember learning (thanks Google):
"The preamble to the Constitution of the Episcopal Church now reads:
The Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America, otherwise known as The Episcopal Church (which name is hereby recognized as also designating the Church), is a constituent member of the Anglican Communion, a Fellowship within the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, of those duly constituted Dioceses, Provinces, and regional Churches in communion with the See of Canterbury, upholding and propagating the historic Faith and Order as set forth in the Book of Common Prayer.[12]"
And yes, they have Protestant in the name, but don't you remember reciting the Apostles' Creed?
"I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church..."??
Not like any Protestant church I've visited, but maybe that's just my impression.
"The preamble to the Constitution of the Episcopal Church now reads:
The Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America, otherwise known as The Episcopal Church (which name is hereby recognized as also designating the Church), is a constituent member of the Anglican Communion, a Fellowship within the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, of those duly constituted Dioceses, Provinces, and regional Churches in communion with the See of Canterbury, upholding and propagating the historic Faith and Order as set forth in the Book of Common Prayer.[12]"
And yes, they have Protestant in the name, but don't you remember reciting the Apostles' Creed?
"I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church..."??
Not like any Protestant church I've visited, but maybe that's just my impression.
13
In actual practice, Episcopalians are split into two different camps - there are the born-again fundies that want to break away from the church - most of their churches read a lot from the anti-female portions in the writings of Paul - and then the rest of Episcopalians who tend to favor Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and rarely mention Paul who was a racist woman-hating bigot.
But, then, what do I know, my son was baptized in the Episcopalian Church, my mom was a Church Deacon in the Anglican and Episcopalian churches, and I was an Anglican Alter Boy for about 7 years.
But, then, what do I know, my son was baptized in the Episcopalian Church, my mom was a Church Deacon in the Anglican and Episcopalian churches, and I was an Anglican Alter Boy for about 7 years.
14
(yes, I can still recite from the Red Book of Common Prayer by heart at any service without actually reading it)
16
@12 There's "catholic" (inclusive)and then there's "Catholic" (referring to the Roman-based church). The history books show how its mixed usage has muddied things across the century.
The term "protestant" refers to protesting (basically) the Roman Church as the ultimate authority -- specifically banning Luther's treatises.
The Anglicans in England most certainly were part of the Reformation.
The term "protestant" refers to protesting (basically) the Roman Church as the ultimate authority -- specifically banning Luther's treatises.
The Anglicans in England most certainly were part of the Reformation.
18
@17- As you can see from my 7/Ro/Uhura epic, Voyager certainly was an integral part of the Star Trek Canon.
20
And now the other penny is starting to drop. As an Episcopalian, I always suspected I was the "wrong" kind of Christian and I think we're going to see more jokers like Zeigler rearing their ugly heads all over the country. In fact, I'm rather shocked we don't see more of them here in Texas, but maybe it's just because I live in liberal Travis County.
These jackasses won't stop. I love #3's joke but for people like Zeigler it's an honestly held belief.
For a short course in the history of the birth of the Anglican Communion, watch The Tudors. Sure, you could get a history book that's more accurate, but would that have all the gratuitous nudity?
These jackasses won't stop. I love #3's joke but for people like Zeigler it's an honestly held belief.
For a short course in the history of the birth of the Anglican Communion, watch The Tudors. Sure, you could get a history book that's more accurate, but would that have all the gratuitous nudity?
21
@12:
Yes, I remember reading that bit in the Apostle's creed, and Hartiepie beat me to the explanation given to me way way back - that Catholic in that case meant inclusive and most definitely not the Roman Catholic church. It was a very common question in church school. I know I asked it because it didn't make sense to me at the time.
Where I grew up, we'd sometimes get an Anglican priest from Canada when the Episcopal church needed a new priest. My parents were Anglican when they were in Canada, before they came to the states, where they just naturally became Episcopal.
@20: Ah yes, good ol' king Henry the 8th and his wives and the creation of the Anglican church. .
I've also been given a lot of crap around here for my former church's beliefs from Fundies who believe that anyone who doesn't believe the earth is 6 or 7 thousand year old is going to hell.
Yes, I remember reading that bit in the Apostle's creed, and Hartiepie beat me to the explanation given to me way way back - that Catholic in that case meant inclusive and most definitely not the Roman Catholic church. It was a very common question in church school. I know I asked it because it didn't make sense to me at the time.
Where I grew up, we'd sometimes get an Anglican priest from Canada when the Episcopal church needed a new priest. My parents were Anglican when they were in Canada, before they came to the states, where they just naturally became Episcopal.
@20: Ah yes, good ol' king Henry the 8th and his wives and the creation of the Anglican church. .
I've also been given a lot of crap around here for my former church's beliefs from Fundies who believe that anyone who doesn't believe the earth is 6 or 7 thousand year old is going to hell.
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