Find Your Valentine
Slog
News & ArtsFriday, September 3, 2010
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: You're Tired Of Porn Fights?
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 11:30 AM
Ever since discovering two years ago that I look at porn—I'm a guy, shocker, I know—my girlfriend and I have gotten in numerous arguments over the subject. I seldom use porn, maybe once a week when she is not around. My GF and I usually have sex once a day, and I always make sure that she is satisfied. Porn has never gotten in the way of our sex lives, and I always make love to her instead of looking at porn if that is an option. I've tried explaining to her that I think she is the most beautiful girl on the planet, that I only want to make love with her, that I find her incredibly sexy, etc, etc, but nothing seems to be enough. Because she has asked (multiple times), I have also reassured her that I do not desire the women that I watch and that they are simply there as a visual stimulus to facilitate the process of me getting off (men are visual creatures, let's be honest).She looks at porn too, and says that she feels guilty getting off on someone who is not her SO, and doesn't understand why I don't feel guilty in doing the same. She also says I shouldn't even need to look at porn since I can have sex with her on a regular basis. I made the mistake of lying to her one time about looking at porn—my honesty about doing it was what got me in trouble in the first place, and I wanted to avoid another fight and spare her feelings—and since then she compulsively checks my Internet history to determine if I've been looking at porn. She even goes so far as to inspect the volume of my ejaculate after sex to guess if I've jerked off since she last saw me. After facing this same argument over and over again, we sometimes reach a happy "conclusion" where she says she understands my p.o.v. and it won't be an issue again... but it always is.
We have been dating for almost four years now, and I want to end these fights once and for all. How can I truly reassure this person that I care for so much and make this problem disappear? Is there any good alternative to deleting my internet history and living a life of white lies?
Tired Of Porn Fights
My response—and TOPF's response to my response, and my response to his response—after the jump.
••••••••••••••
Break up with her.
Yes, I guess that is an alternative. Anything more constructive? Couple's therapy perhaps?
Put your foot down—something you can without the permission of a couple's counselor. Tell her this shit stops NOW or the relationship is OVER. You don't have to break up with her, I suppose, if you don't want to. But if you want this to stop you are going to have to lay it on the line—lay the relationship on the line—by making her understand that you are prepared to end the relationship if her abusive and controlling behavior does not stop. Right now this is a hostage situation, TOPF, not a relationship. Tell her you want to be in relationship with her but that you won't be a hostage to her hypocritical insecurities anymore.Measuring your ejaculate? Do you have any idea how controlling and crazy that is? If a man was doing something comparable to a woman—I'm not sure what that would be exactly—no one would hesitate to slap the "abuser" label him on him.
This shit won't stop until you make it clear that you are prepared to end the relationship if it doesn't stop.
4
She even goes so far as to inspect the volume of my ejaculate after sex to guess if I've jerked off since she last saw me.
At low volume, all she hears is mumbles and whispers. But at high volume, the snitchy sperm are all "HE'S JERKING OFF TO PORN AGAIN!!!!"
At low volume, all she hears is mumbles and whispers. But at high volume, the snitchy sperm are all "HE'S JERKING OFF TO PORN AGAIN!!!!"
7
Egads.
This sort of thing makes me feel really bad for straight people.
Is there any way they can work her controlling and abusive behavior into a consensual bdsm dynamic? Could they transform this fucked up situation into something where they are up front about what is going on?
Yikes!
This sort of thing makes me feel really bad for straight people.
Is there any way they can work her controlling and abusive behavior into a consensual bdsm dynamic? Could they transform this fucked up situation into something where they are up front about what is going on?
Yikes!
9
Wait... They're not even married?! Not that it should matter, but that's a frightening level of, in this case, unlicensed possessiveness.
Wake up and smell the coffee! Something is seriously not right there, and it needs addressing. Now. They're only dating, right? Well, maybe they should take a break. Either she'll decide she wants him back as he is, or she won't. Either way, he needs that madness out of his life. Breaking her stranglehold for a couple weeks might be just the ticket. If that possessiveness is a misplaced expression of love, rather than insecurity, now would be the time to find out.
Wake up and smell the coffee! Something is seriously not right there, and it needs addressing. Now. They're only dating, right? Well, maybe they should take a break. Either she'll decide she wants him back as he is, or she won't. Either way, he needs that madness out of his life. Breaking her stranglehold for a couple weeks might be just the ticket. If that possessiveness is a misplaced expression of love, rather than insecurity, now would be the time to find out.
11
I went through something like this years ago. Even the softest of porn threw my ex into a tizzy. DTMFA. It won't get better. Believe me.
12
She checks ejaculate volume? Creepy! Just to make things interesting, mention that she feels a little cavernous lately and accuse her of some extracurricular activities.
13
@ 7: Is there any way they can work her controlling and abusive behavior into a consensual bdsm dynamic?
Well, plainly he doesn't enjoy it. Maybe if he got a pass to "punish" her when she started being crazy...
Well, plainly he doesn't enjoy it. Maybe if he got a pass to "punish" her when she started being crazy...
14
Yes, TOPF needs a spine, but his girlfriend needs therapy. If she is this batshit now, imagine how controlling she'd be after they are living together or -- heaven forfend -- married.
15
@7: Don't feel sorry for straight people, what is going there is just plain weird and not normal.
Measuring ejaculate? WTF?
Measuring ejaculate? WTF?
16
Great advice. Exactly what I was thinking, in the order I was thinking it.
@7: This is not "straight people". This is CRAZY people!
@7: This is not "straight people". This is CRAZY people!
17
I was with the "he needs to put his foot down and tell her that she needs to stop or he'll break up with her" until I got to the "She even goes so far as to inspect the volume of [his] ejaculate after sex to guess if I've jerked off since she last saw [him]," at which point I switched to, "Holy fuck, run AWAAAAAAAAAY!"
19
I would think most women are more understanding, more into sex, whatever, before marriage. If this is bad now, and you're considering something long-term, like marriage, just imagine what she'll be like then, when she believes she has a legitimate right to control you. Feminist porn haters aside, most women who fear porn are insecure, and if she's insecure now (relatively young, no kids), picture her insecurity 10 years on, post-children tummy and stretch marks. And someone who wants to control this part of your life will probably want to control other parts, too, like your friends, your "guy time," your job selection. I've seen this in friends of ours: People aren't usually controlling in just one area, it's usually more comprehensive...you just haven't reached that point yet.
20
And no, he's not a "pussy". He's in love with an insecure manipulator. Even relatively strong people can become victims of their love for people like this. It doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman, that kind of shit messes with your head.
21
I will readily admit that I am pretty insecure. That being said, this woman has serious insecurity problems. Do these type of girls ever think? In most main stream porn, most of the women's features (tons of make-up, fake boobs, ect) are exaggerated, and you know why? Because, like the boyfriend said, men are visual creatures. It's almost like play acting...they emphasize features so the audience can get more into the experience. Blaming media is officially a cop out. I realize emotions are not necessarily rational, but I wish women would just think before they judge.
Also, the fact that she also watches porn makes her a gigantic, controlling, bitch of a hypocrite. Saying "she feels guilty" is her own problem, not his. Maybe she feels guilty because SHE desires what she watches? He doesn't, because like I said before, it is strictly visuals. DTMFA!!!
Also, the fact that she also watches porn makes her a gigantic, controlling, bitch of a hypocrite. Saying "she feels guilty" is her own problem, not his. Maybe she feels guilty because SHE desires what she watches? He doesn't, because like I said before, it is strictly visuals. DTMFA!!!
22
Let's face it women can be very insecure about porn. Women are always jealous if their partner even looks at another women. I discovered this feeling with my last Bf and I'm not a jealous person by nature and thought WTF when I realized what I was feeling. Women are afraid that they will lose to competition and that wakes the green monster. Even if he is looking at fictional glossy, plastic image of a woman, she feels threatened as if it was a real woman.
I had absolutely no problem with the BF looking at porn because I understood the difference. Guys are visual and they're easy. They get off on just a friggin' body part for God sakes. So what? But given a choice between a plastic one in a photo and the real woman laying naked on his bed, guess which one he'll take? That's right.
There's something seriously wrong when this woman compulsively looks at his computer and measures his sperm??!!! Yeah he needs to read her the riot act and she better wake up of this will be the last boyfriend she ever has.
I had absolutely no problem with the BF looking at porn because I understood the difference. Guys are visual and they're easy. They get off on just a friggin' body part for God sakes. So what? But given a choice between a plastic one in a photo and the real woman laying naked on his bed, guess which one he'll take? That's right.
There's something seriously wrong when this woman compulsively looks at his computer and measures his sperm??!!! Yeah he needs to read her the riot act and she better wake up of this will be the last boyfriend she ever has.
23
What's fucked up about the "measuring" thing is that it implies she's not even okay with him masturbating AT ALL. Because if he did, regardless of whether there was porn involved, his volume would be lower...
DTMFA.
DTMFA.
24
It IS possible that some women who dislike porn can grow to like it, or at least be neutral to it. Try presenting it as something you can watch together?
Or just try to help her understand. Maybe her guilt would be assuaged by watching porn made for women, by women. I bet that the more comfortable she is with watching it, the more comfortable she'd be with you watching it. Compare it to reading erotic literature or getting excited over a sexy movie scene.
This seems rather basic, but maybe that's what she needs. I promise, though, that some women who are insecure about it now can outgrow that.
Or just try to help her understand. Maybe her guilt would be assuaged by watching porn made for women, by women. I bet that the more comfortable she is with watching it, the more comfortable she'd be with you watching it. Compare it to reading erotic literature or getting excited over a sexy movie scene.
This seems rather basic, but maybe that's what she needs. I promise, though, that some women who are insecure about it now can outgrow that.
25
man this bitch must be really hot. does she make you wear a rubber mask and tie you up when she measures your ejaculate? does she want to? they make penis locks if you guys are both into that. hahahahahaha hahaha
hahahah
ahahaha what a Bitch
hahahah
ahahaha what a Bitch
26
I do agree the "checkin the volume" is insane, but... depending on where he finishes, the process could be kinda hot, just sayin'. Especially if she uses a test tube & puts on goggles and a white labcoat.
27
@22 I like it when I catch my boyfriend discreetly looking at another woman. Then I feel like we can check her out together. It's a turn-on knowing he's appreciating the female form.
29
Seriously how do you measure ejaculate? Measuring spoon? Suck it into a syringe? See if it fills your belly-button? Percent coverage of his belly?
HOW?
Do you test it for specific gravity too?
HOW?
Do you test it for specific gravity too?
30
Get a fake gun and the next time she brings it up take out your cock and balls and put the gun to your nuts and threaten to blow your own balls clean off if she brings it up again. That'll fix her.
31
@27 you're the Best. Female Form is right. I liked it when my ex could gage another female's ass by how good it would feel to bury her face in there. There are other forms of appreciation, but you've got the idea. It's all about getting turned on right? Do it together!
32
Maybe if you had been open about it in the first place she wouldn't be so insecure. Believe it or not women want honesty. Her behavior is bizarre and you should listen to Dan, you need to stop this before it gets worse. Have you tried watching porn together? Its' worth a shot.
33
My husband and I don't have "porn fights."
I can't recall any examples of gay couples writing to Dan with this problem.
Of course I meant ALL straight people. Every last one of them!
Heterosexuals are so touchy. Every last one of them!
I can't recall any examples of gay couples writing to Dan with this problem.
Of course I meant ALL straight people. Every last one of them!
Heterosexuals are so touchy. Every last one of them!
34
Maybe he comes in her mouth every time and she swallows and can tell when she's not as full as she was the last time.
Y'know, because abusive, controlling women love to swallow.
Y'know, because abusive, controlling women love to swallow.
35
Okay, dude, I've gone on record before saying porn makes me feel insecure, kind of jealous, conflicted feeling, blah blah blah, but compulsively looking at your Internet? (I look for at boyfriends' porn only for a lark when I am feeling EXTREMELY attractive, so I can give him a raised eyebrow and a come-hither," oo-ho, you like THIS do you?") but checking your ejaculation level? I mean you're not even "allowed" to freaking jerk off?
That's... I mean, it's insane. And coming from a pretty deeply insecure girl, that must means it's SUPER crazy.
That's... I mean, it's insane. And coming from a pretty deeply insecure girl, that must means it's SUPER crazy.
36
@30 If he stays with her much longer, Vince, I don't think he'll have any balls to threaten her with...she'll be wearing them on a string around her neck.
37
The cumulative effect of all these stories to my self-absorbed little brain is that it is a gdamn tragedy that I'm on the shelf (single, no prospects), because apparently GGG straight women are a rarity.
Seriously, measuring his ejaculate? Please, boil the pet rabbit first!
Seriously, measuring his ejaculate? Please, boil the pet rabbit first!
38
She sounds different from the average porn-hating GF because she admits she watches it, albeit with guilt. Most of them either watch it then lie about it or avoid it like the plague. So there might be some potential there if he could convince her that they're in the same boat, i.e he feels the same way she, a porn consumer does, and is not going to leave her for some unknown chunk of flesh.
Then again the ejaculate measuring is all kinds of crazy, so maybe not.
Then again the ejaculate measuring is all kinds of crazy, so maybe not.
42
@20, sorry if pussy offended you, but that's what this man is being. colloquial usage of the word justifies it in this poor sap's case.
43
I don't get why these women don't get it. I'm sure each one has gone to lunch with friends, and also treated herself to a nice lunch alone. Yeah, there's food in common, but they are distinct and separate pleasant experiences.
The glory of partner sex is tending to the pleasure of your partner, even as s/he tends to yours. The glory of jacking off, with or without porn, is not having to tend to the pleasure of a partner, just your own. Yeah, there's orgasm in common, but they are separate experiences. As with lunches, a guy can enjoy one this day and the other tomorrow, with no contradiction and no compromising his love for his partner.
Men seem to get this instinctively. A lot of women don't, it seems. Can't someone tell them? Dan?
The glory of partner sex is tending to the pleasure of your partner, even as s/he tends to yours. The glory of jacking off, with or without porn, is not having to tend to the pleasure of a partner, just your own. Yeah, there's orgasm in common, but they are separate experiences. As with lunches, a guy can enjoy one this day and the other tomorrow, with no contradiction and no compromising his love for his partner.
Men seem to get this instinctively. A lot of women don't, it seems. Can't someone tell them? Dan?
44
Jesus, not another porn fight letter.
Guys, be discreet about your porn consumption if you sense/know your girlfriend is the type who might wig out about porn. Girls, realize that most everyone of both genders looks at porn these days and if he's not being a dick by doing it in front of you, then you need to let it go.
Guys, be discreet about your porn consumption if you sense/know your girlfriend is the type who might wig out about porn. Girls, realize that most everyone of both genders looks at porn these days and if he's not being a dick by doing it in front of you, then you need to let it go.
45
#24 is right - try watching porn with her and talk about what you like in it, what she likes in it, reassure each other that you're hot for what you're seeing, not who you're seeing. Demystify the whole thing for her by making it more ordinary and less sneaky. Then finish by having her watch you jerk off (to reinforce the masturbation-is-okay concept). She can return the favor herself (probably will take a LOT of encouragement). Maybe if she sees firsthand that you can be into both her AND porn, she'll lighten up. You can always DTMFA later if she just can't share you with you.
Hint: find porn that works for both of you. Many women like straight porn, gay porn, and girl-on-girl porn, so general chances are (2 of of 3), you'll like what she likes. Get her to pick one, then you pick one. It'll be like a book club for two, but dirtier...
Hint: find porn that works for both of you. Many women like straight porn, gay porn, and girl-on-girl porn, so general chances are (2 of of 3), you'll like what she likes. Get her to pick one, then you pick one. It'll be like a book club for two, but dirtier...
46
"... she compulsively checks my Internet history ..." C'mon people, it's 2010 and you haven't figured out to secure your user account?
48
The fact that they fuck almost every day, she watches porn, and she is so obsessive/possessive about his sexuality tells me she's crazy in a way that makes her spectacular in bed.
I say enjoy the fuck fest as long as you can, and then find a normal woman who's happy to have you jack off to porn if it means you'll stop humping her leg.
I say enjoy the fuck fest as long as you can, and then find a normal woman who's happy to have you jack off to porn if it means you'll stop humping her leg.
49
My GF and I usually have sex once a day, and I always make sure that she is satisfied.
It's great that you do that but I wonder: does she make sure you are satisfied in return? She must. In fact, she must do more than that. She must be really hot in bed or a great person in other ways (smart, funny, etc.), or all of that, in order for you to put up with this controlling shit.
I used to wonder how people could stay with someone who treated them poorly until I fell for a woman like that. I stayed with her for two years because the good (best sex I ever had, among other things) outweighed the bad. But finally the bad (she fucked a friend of mine) outweighed the good and I said good riddance. Having been through that once, I'd sure like to think I won't do it again but being "in love" (and lust) fucks with your rational mind.
It's great that you do that but I wonder: does she make sure you are satisfied in return? She must. In fact, she must do more than that. She must be really hot in bed or a great person in other ways (smart, funny, etc.), or all of that, in order for you to put up with this controlling shit.
I used to wonder how people could stay with someone who treated them poorly until I fell for a woman like that. I stayed with her for two years because the good (best sex I ever had, among other things) outweighed the bad. But finally the bad (she fucked a friend of mine) outweighed the good and I said good riddance. Having been through that once, I'd sure like to think I won't do it again but being "in love" (and lust) fucks with your rational mind.
50
I am amazed at how many of these "woman freaks out over bf/husband's porn!" letters are posted in this column. I thought my boyfriend was exaggerating when he said he was reticent to share porn with me because of previous relationship traumas surrounding porn. Seriously? Now I get it. And it's making me sad for the state of sexuality in a lot of people's relationships. I'm kind of tired of hearing about it, to be honest. I mean, it's one thing to just not be into something. "Hey, honey, porn doesn't turn me on, so could you just do it when I'm not home?" which is EXACTLY what this guy does. But SHIT, if my boyfriend and I had sex at least once A DAY, why in the WORLD would I freak out over his looking at porn an average of ONCE A WEEK? Personally, I would KILL to get it once a day! WHAT IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE?!
When it comes to this "women hate porn because they're insecure" thing, I get it. I do. My sympathies. But the only way to get beyond insecurities is to GET BEYOND THE INSECURITIES. Nobody else is responsible for helping me get beyond my insecurities. I love it when my partner tells me I'm beautiful, but I have to believe it for it to make a dent in my insecurities. And my insecurities don't go away in the absence of porn. They just shift to some other behavior I claim makes me insecure. Insecurities are an internal issue, not an external one. If porn triggers insecurities, it's because a person doesn't have the internal failsafes in place to sheild them from those kinds of feelings in the face of porn. Again, I understand just not being turned on by porn (I mean, I don't UNDERSTAND it understand it since I enjoy the stuff), and I even understand feeling a LITTLE insecure about one's partner looking at porn. Even if a woman looks at porn and is porn-positive, she might have a MOMENT of feeling a little bruised in the ego at the thought of her partner getting off to images of other women. That sounds fairly natural and emotionally stable. But being so insecure that you go completely insane and trample all over someone else's boundaries in a way that is downright emotionally abusive? Get professional help.
More...
When it comes to this "women hate porn because they're insecure" thing, I get it. I do. My sympathies. But the only way to get beyond insecurities is to GET BEYOND THE INSECURITIES. Nobody else is responsible for helping me get beyond my insecurities. I love it when my partner tells me I'm beautiful, but I have to believe it for it to make a dent in my insecurities. And my insecurities don't go away in the absence of porn. They just shift to some other behavior I claim makes me insecure. Insecurities are an internal issue, not an external one. If porn triggers insecurities, it's because a person doesn't have the internal failsafes in place to sheild them from those kinds of feelings in the face of porn. Again, I understand just not being turned on by porn (I mean, I don't UNDERSTAND it understand it since I enjoy the stuff), and I even understand feeling a LITTLE insecure about one's partner looking at porn. Even if a woman looks at porn and is porn-positive, she might have a MOMENT of feeling a little bruised in the ego at the thought of her partner getting off to images of other women. That sounds fairly natural and emotionally stable. But being so insecure that you go completely insane and trample all over someone else's boundaries in a way that is downright emotionally abusive? Get professional help.
51
I'm a girl who thinks porn is super, and I don’t want to know or control what my BF is thinking about while we’re fucking. **BUT** so long as he insists on a monogamy, his is the only dick I get. The days he jacks off, I don’t get laid; period. He hates it when I say he is “eating off my plate” (he’s right: it isn’t “my” plate), but I don’t need to measure his ejaculate to know when I’m having solo sex because he got bored while I was at work. Monogamy is important to him, so I’ve agreed. Isn’t asking him not to spend his savings on kleenex a fair request?
56
49/seandr: ...tells me she's crazy in a way that makes her spectacular in bed.
That's my thought too. The three hottest women I've ever been with were crazy in some way. (Two of them, interestingly, had been abused by men when they were young.) I've never been with a sweet woman who was nasty and red-hot in bed. I'm sure women like that exist, perhaps plenty of them. I just haven't met one yet.
That's my thought too. The three hottest women I've ever been with were crazy in some way. (Two of them, interestingly, had been abused by men when they were young.) I've never been with a sweet woman who was nasty and red-hot in bed. I'm sure women like that exist, perhaps plenty of them. I just haven't met one yet.
58
#40: Well said!
#48: Yeah, why is it that some of the people who are best at sex are worst at either sanity or respectful behavior?
#49: Well, great sex does indeed count for a lot . . .
#48: Yeah, why is it that some of the people who are best at sex are worst at either sanity or respectful behavior?
#49: Well, great sex does indeed count for a lot . . .
60
I think the kicker is that gets off to porn and is racked by guilt about it. Hello? Earth to dude. She's not emotionally responsible enough to be in a sexual relationship. You shouldn't even need to see her take her self loathing of her own sexuality out on you to recognize that there is a problem. She might grow up fast if you follow Dan's advice, but you have to decide if it's worth it. And you DO NOT need couples counselling. SHE NEEDS COUNSELLING! That might involve you if you decide to be the nicest guy ever and stick with her through her healing, but it's not your problem...and frankly her MO seems to be all about making it your problem...so the live expectancy of this relationship is not so hot...
61
nocutename: Well, great sex does indeed count for a lot . . .
Yeah...for a while.
It's too bad a hot sexual connection with another person is (in my opinion, of course) so hard to find. It it wasn't, people would be much less likely to stay in great-fucking-with-fucked-up-person relationships.
Yeah...for a while.
It's too bad a hot sexual connection with another person is (in my opinion, of course) so hard to find. It it wasn't, people would be much less likely to stay in great-fucking-with-fucked-up-person relationships.
65
@29, if it's in a condom, you can easily see the difference between just-jerked-off-6-hours-ago and holding-it-for-two-weeks. It's a difference between several drops and several ounces and also the color can be different (clearish vs. white). However, if he's serious about doing her once a day rather than exaggerating the bitchiness for sympathy, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. And certainly if she demands to check the condoms every time they fuck (rather than notices them every now and then and makes snide remarks), that is a major problem.
The only thing that will change for the better is if this girl gets real and start respecting herself -- not as a sex object or as his mind-controller, but for her own abilities. I know it's hard with some of the social messages out there but get a fucking grip -- it's 2010 and there are just as many strong fucking female role models out there these days as wimpy-ass pathetic "I saved myself for you" cum-dumpster models. Unfortunately for the writer, people don't change because you want them to so it's unlikely that she'll change any time soon. But who knows, in 10-20 years she could be dating material. The writer also seems too prone to his own insecurities to date someone like this -- she will just suck him down into the self-esteem abyss with her. Each of them needs a strong partner to build their self-esteem and if they can't find one, they need to stay single and build it their damn selves!
The only thing that will change for the better is if this girl gets real and start respecting herself -- not as a sex object or as his mind-controller, but for her own abilities. I know it's hard with some of the social messages out there but get a fucking grip -- it's 2010 and there are just as many strong fucking female role models out there these days as wimpy-ass pathetic "I saved myself for you" cum-dumpster models. Unfortunately for the writer, people don't change because you want them to so it's unlikely that she'll change any time soon. But who knows, in 10-20 years she could be dating material. The writer also seems too prone to his own insecurities to date someone like this -- she will just suck him down into the self-esteem abyss with her. Each of them needs a strong partner to build their self-esteem and if they can't find one, they need to stay single and build it their damn selves!
66
Wow. I reeeeally need to dump my MFA, so it's really not fair for me to tell TOPF he should DTMFA. It's not an easy thing to do when you love someone. But TOPF, from one pushover wuss to another - this woman is being unreasonably controlling and obsessive. You have tried to work this out, but she is not cooperating. The next step for you is obvious.
67
@37/ maddy- right there with you, babe. Unfortunately.
@28/ lewlew- brilliant incorporation of the word poopnoodle!
@4/ roma- I love you for that.
@28/ lewlew- brilliant incorporation of the word poopnoodle!
@4/ roma- I love you for that.
68
This friend of mine had a crazy-jealous, abusive boyfriend, and one of things he would do, making sure she knew it, was pull her used panties out of the laundry basket and smell them. Supposedly this could "prove" she was fucking other people somewhere in between the dozens of times he checked up on her all day.
Yeah, measuring ejaculate reminded me of that.
Yeah, measuring ejaculate reminded me of that.
69
@33
I noticed something, lurking and observing here, as I tend not to engage people in public with whom I am not already familiar; those who possess a median characteristic (or have the perception that they possess the same), those who understandably should be most secure in their own identity, it being reinforced by society as a whole, take the greatest offense when that identity is challenged, even in the most harmless, joking sort of way. Thus people who self-define as "middle-class" cast Nietzsche and Paglia aside, without consideration of even their most insightful criticisms. Thus those in committed monogamous relationships take strong offense at even the slightest implication as with "Sex at Dawn" that their sexual preferences are not reinforced according to Evolutionary Psychology. Of course, the multitude of offended voices have the capacity to speak loudest in unison, but also I wonder if they react so strenuously and negatively because their identity is hardly challenged and they lack the emotional knowledge to cope therewith.
I noticed something, lurking and observing here, as I tend not to engage people in public with whom I am not already familiar; those who possess a median characteristic (or have the perception that they possess the same), those who understandably should be most secure in their own identity, it being reinforced by society as a whole, take the greatest offense when that identity is challenged, even in the most harmless, joking sort of way. Thus people who self-define as "middle-class" cast Nietzsche and Paglia aside, without consideration of even their most insightful criticisms. Thus those in committed monogamous relationships take strong offense at even the slightest implication as with "Sex at Dawn" that their sexual preferences are not reinforced according to Evolutionary Psychology. Of course, the multitude of offended voices have the capacity to speak loudest in unison, but also I wonder if they react so strenuously and negatively because their identity is hardly challenged and they lack the emotional knowledge to cope therewith.
70
The letter writer should show his letter, Dan's response, and all the comments to his crazy girlfriend immediately.
71
Good freaking grief! I am sooo showing my husband of 17 years this when he gets home. He needs to know how good he has it. He actually bookmarks his favorite porn sites on our shared computer and, (as long as he continutes to fuck me senseless on a regular basis) I DON'T CARE! It doesn't affect me, it's not a reflection on me, and really, unless there's something that he wants to show me, it's NONE OF MY BUSINESS! (As long as he continues to fuck me senseless on a regular basis.) Of course, I have it pretty good too... He got me a new Hitachi Magic Wand for my birthday.
72
As a gay male, I've been reading these porn-war stories now with a smidgen of jealousy thinking, man, if I were a sex-positive woman with a beautiful pussy, a smokin' hot body and allowed men to enjoy their porn, I could rule this fucking world! Men ask so little to be happy.
73
#56: I'm one. And the really ironic part is I at I'm not sharing it with anyone. Maybe if they see sane and nice they think, "nah . . . can't be good in bed."
75
#61: That's my point in the both in the statement you responded to and in the preceding post:
Good sex, I mean really, really good sex with passion and intensity and connection that the feeling that your souls are actually merging . . . whoops! Excuse me, I got (ahem) a bit carried away. But it's really, really rare.
So when you find it, appreciating how infrequently you do come across it, you (I don't mean *you,* you know, but "one." "One" just sounds so pretentious) tend to hold on to it even (for a while) when it's clearly attached to someone crazy, or stupid, or mean, or lazy, or . . .
Eventually, the bad stuff gets to be too much to outweigh the good, and you "come to your senses."
And then months or years of that kind of solitude that comes from not being willing to settle for yet another partner with whom sex is just kind of good comes over you and you find yourself remembering old "Batshit" when you masturbate and wondering why you broke up anyway.
(Insert smiley face made of punctuation marks here so you know I've got a sense of humor)
Good sex, I mean really, really good sex with passion and intensity and connection that the feeling that your souls are actually merging . . . whoops! Excuse me, I got (ahem) a bit carried away. But it's really, really rare.
So when you find it, appreciating how infrequently you do come across it, you (I don't mean *you,* you know, but "one." "One" just sounds so pretentious) tend to hold on to it even (for a while) when it's clearly attached to someone crazy, or stupid, or mean, or lazy, or . . .
Eventually, the bad stuff gets to be too much to outweigh the good, and you "come to your senses."
And then months or years of that kind of solitude that comes from not being willing to settle for yet another partner with whom sex is just kind of good comes over you and you find yourself remembering old "Batshit" when you masturbate and wondering why you broke up anyway.
(Insert smiley face made of punctuation marks here so you know I've got a sense of humor)
78
I doubt she's really getting all scientific about checking it, its possible to notice whether there's a lot of it or a little, thats probably all "the check" is. And then she hypothesizes on why there's more or less.
This is never gonna end though. Even pretending he doesn't look at porn doesn't work, she knows enough to know that its BS if he's telling her he doesn't, so she goes on these crazy hunts for evidence. She's not happy if she's told about the porn and she's not happy if she isn't, and thats the craziness that needs to be dealt with. I'm surprised she hasn't just gotten tired of it and given up her crusade after 4 years.
This is never gonna end though. Even pretending he doesn't look at porn doesn't work, she knows enough to know that its BS if he's telling her he doesn't, so she goes on these crazy hunts for evidence. She's not happy if she's told about the porn and she's not happy if she isn't, and thats the craziness that needs to be dealt with. I'm surprised she hasn't just gotten tired of it and given up her crusade after 4 years.
79
Sounds like things would be a lot easier for the girlfriend if she had this spell in her grimoire.
http://oglaf.com/cumsprite/1/
Comic is several pages long and incredibly NSFW!
http://oglaf.com/cumsprite/1/
Comic is several pages long and incredibly NSFW!
80
nocutename, great sex might mean different things to both of us. I have nothing against the souls-merging thing -- in fact, that's very powerful -- but "great" sex, to me, is more about being with a woman who loves sex, is (mostly) free of inhibitions and is able to get really nasty. Doesn't mean she has to be that way all the time but if she can't get in touch with her inner wildcat (or doesn't have one) at all, then it's not gonna be great for me.
I agree with the rest of what you said @ 75.
Maybe if they see sane and nice they think, "nah . . . can't be good in bed."
Perhaps. That could be true for some guys. But I don't think most guys are going to let that suspicion keep them from getting naked with a woman in order to find out as long as they're attracted to her and think she's cool.
I agree with the rest of what you said @ 75.
Maybe if they see sane and nice they think, "nah . . . can't be good in bed."
Perhaps. That could be true for some guys. But I don't think most guys are going to let that suspicion keep them from getting naked with a woman in order to find out as long as they're attracted to her and think she's cool.
81
Looove that comic! Wish it updated a little more often, though...
And I'm also going to have to say that I'm sooooo over this whole porn argument. Can we move on now?
And I'm also going to have to say that I'm sooooo over this whole porn argument. Can we move on now?
82
DTMFA. Disliking porn is one thing, but this woman apparently doesn't even like him to masturbate. This situation is far beyond the kinds of "find porn you BOTH can enjoy!" solutions some people have suggested.
@72 that sounds nice, doesn't it? Unfortunately an attractive sex-positive, pro-porn woman still has to fear the "slut" label, and will likely run into more than a few guys who thinks she's the kind of girl you fuck, but not the kind you marry. And it doesn't really take all that little to make men happy. My boyfriend is always wanting to like, talk about his feelings & be treated with consideration & stuff.
@72 that sounds nice, doesn't it? Unfortunately an attractive sex-positive, pro-porn woman still has to fear the "slut" label, and will likely run into more than a few guys who thinks she's the kind of girl you fuck, but not the kind you marry. And it doesn't really take all that little to make men happy. My boyfriend is always wanting to like, talk about his feelings & be treated with consideration & stuff.
83
@79 -- I was gonna post a link to that, myself. Beat me to it...
Somebody needs to get this guy one of the t-shirts.
Somebody needs to get this guy one of the t-shirts.
84
Man, on my first read-through I missed the "inspect the volume of my ejaculate" thing. Yeesh.
The trust in this relationship is damaged really, really badly - and it's mostly damaged by one person feeling like she "can't trust" the other not to do something that he shouldn't have to not do.
Sorry, TOPF, bro, but she's kind of a psycho and you need to either bring about some radical change in her ideas of what is acceptable in a relationship or just lose her. And since insecurity issues are so damned intractable, my vote is for the latter. Save yourself some grief.
The trust in this relationship is damaged really, really badly - and it's mostly damaged by one person feeling like she "can't trust" the other not to do something that he shouldn't have to not do.
Sorry, TOPF, bro, but she's kind of a psycho and you need to either bring about some radical change in her ideas of what is acceptable in a relationship or just lose her. And since insecurity issues are so damned intractable, my vote is for the latter. Save yourself some grief.
85
They've been together and still only dating? They don't even live together? Is it because the guy knows he's dating crazy?
86
The psycho boyfriend equivalent is the one I had in high school who would rummage through the bathroom trash for bloody tampons to be really, really sure I had gotten my period and, therefore, wasn't pregnant. Not that he could be bothered to wear condoms...
87
There's a clinical name for this behavior .... what is it...?
Oh right: bitch be crazy. Run, dude.
Oh right: bitch be crazy. Run, dude.
89
@4: "At low volume, all she hears is mumbles and whispers. But at high volume, the snitchy sperm are all "HE'S JERKING OFF TO PORN AGAIN!!!!""
You mean like this?
http://www.oglaf.com/cumsprite/3/
You mean like this?
http://www.oglaf.com/cumsprite/3/
91
Yep, Roma, you're describing me to a T.
And I'm nice and normal outside the bedroom.
AND I don't care if my bf watches porn (which seems to put me in an exclusive group, to judge by all the letters Dan has been running lately).
So why are these idiots sticking with psycho controlling, insecure (no doubt full of lots of inhibitions) women and why am I single?
And I'm nice and normal outside the bedroom.
AND I don't care if my bf watches porn (which seems to put me in an exclusive group, to judge by all the letters Dan has been running lately).
So why are these idiots sticking with psycho controlling, insecure (no doubt full of lots of inhibitions) women and why am I single?
92
I'm female, straight, married, and pretty hot (so says my husband). I have no problem at all with his porn, he has no problem with my porn, and occasionally we watch porn together. I don't get the whole "porn is cheating" thing. Porn is not cheating. Neither are dildos or dreams. It's possible we're not having enough sex (certainly ain't once a day!), but I can't think of a time in which either of our porn habits prevented us from having sex. Usually, it's more of a warm-up.
I think it's a situation whereby happy-with-their-sex-life folks don't write to Dan Savage. Lots of ladies are cool with their mens' porn habits, and vice versa.
I think it's a situation whereby happy-with-their-sex-life folks don't write to Dan Savage. Lots of ladies are cool with their mens' porn habits, and vice versa.
93
To add to the fray and mayhem: It's not just batshit crazy insecure women who hate porn, it's also some feminists who are equating porn viewing with "deviant" sex acts like anal, and saying women who watch porn are "more likely to be raped." Seriously.
http://www.tinynibbles.com/blogarchives/…
http://www.tinynibbles.com/blogarchives/…
94
You poor poor SOB. There are women out there that not only will enjoy a good porn flick with you but by themselves too! I totally agree with Dan, pitch this girl before she takes hold!
95
as one of the much-maligned feminists who has the audacity to question a dude's inalienable right to close-ups of the pink despite the skeezy situations that may arise in production, dissemination and after repeated exposure to porn, I gotta say this woman sounds batshit nuts.
let us not be painted with the same brush.
let us not be painted with the same brush.
96
Can we stop with "Men are visual"? Of course they are. So are women. Humans are visual.
Porn is not made for women so of course we don't like it. The men are barely shown at all, the woman often looks like she's faking it or in pain (I guess men can't tell?) and "lesbian" porn is just two straight girls shoving things into each other. It's not sexy because it doesn't feel good.
Is there porn of people actually enjoying each other? Probably somewhere. But the most easily accessible porn is not that porn. Women who don't like porn have probably never seen that porn.
But it's not because women are not visual. The vast majority of the entire population is more visual.
Porn is not made for women so of course we don't like it. The men are barely shown at all, the woman often looks like she's faking it or in pain (I guess men can't tell?) and "lesbian" porn is just two straight girls shoving things into each other. It's not sexy because it doesn't feel good.
Is there porn of people actually enjoying each other? Probably somewhere. But the most easily accessible porn is not that porn. Women who don't like porn have probably never seen that porn.
But it's not because women are not visual. The vast majority of the entire population is more visual.
97
Agree with you totally erin! As a fellow woman don't lump me in with that girl...not the same team!
98
@96 As a woman I've found that a lot of amature porn is right up my alley. I have the same complaints about pro stuff: is he jabbing something vital repeatedly in there? Why does she sound like a baby seal? Why is she wearing eyeshadow, mascara and lipstick to bed?
Anyways, with the non-pro stuff I find that you are more likely to find women who are doing it for fun, not as a job. Best porn I ever saw was this tiny french girl getting it from three huge black dudes at once. And she was giggling like she was getting the ride of her life. It was very refreshing, she looked like she was having a great time. Also, I once saw a pro-porno directed by a woman on late night cable. AWESOME. So, it does exsist and, thankfully, women friendly porn is getting easier to find.
Anyways, with the non-pro stuff I find that you are more likely to find women who are doing it for fun, not as a job. Best porn I ever saw was this tiny french girl getting it from three huge black dudes at once. And she was giggling like she was getting the ride of her life. It was very refreshing, she looked like she was having a great time. Also, I once saw a pro-porno directed by a woman on late night cable. AWESOME. So, it does exsist and, thankfully, women friendly porn is getting easier to find.
99
Yay! Fellow Oglaf fans! I wish that they'd update more often too, but I often forget about it and then catch up all at once, so it sort of works out.
100
@96 what I wonder about porn and finding sex to watch that isn't this insane fake kabuki sex is if it's fun at all? i mean, without the weird body positions needed to see penetration, or the focus on timing and all, is it still appealing? Does watching porn where the woman is actually just enjoying herself unself-consciously and making the weird sex faces some of us (ahem) do still seem hot? I actually wonder and am not being rhetorical or anything, I am just not the right person to like, research that.
102
I was in a relationship where I was acting crazy about stuff like this. But I haven't in any relationship before or since. I think I wasn't getting "what I needed" in terms of feeling appreciated. So there. To the LW, your loving styles may be very different!
103
92/AllieP: I don't get the whole "porn is cheating" thing. Porn is not cheating. Neither are dildos or dreams.
Good point about dildos, Allie. Many (I'm assuming) women use dildos or vibrators to get off, even though they have a boyfriend or husband, and I doubt they're always thinking about their guy while doing so.
* * * * *
95/erin: as one of the much-maligned feminists who has the audacity to question a dude's inalienable right to close-ups of the pink despite the skeezy situations that may arise in production...
Erin, a couple questions for you...
1. Can you define what you see as "skeezy" situations in porn production, or give some examples?
2. If there were, hypothetically, none of these "skeezy" situations, would you still object to men watching porn?
Thanks.
* * * * *
96/a woman: Can we stop with "Men are visual"? Of course they are. So are women. Humans are visual. Porn is not made for women so of course we don't like it.
When I was younger, I bought into the idea that "men are visual" (with its implied counterpart that "women are not.") But now, while I still think that men are somewhat more visual than women, I know that women are very visual too. For example, although many women like to pretend otherwise, what's "on the outside" of man matters to them. A lot. A guy could be a great guy on the inside, but if a woman doesn't like his body or his face (or both), she's not going to want an intimate relationship with him. So yeah, I agree with you: humans are visual. Looks matter to us.
As general rule, if a person feels there's money to be made selling something, they will create and market that good or service. If porn (or most porn) is not made for women, isn't it likely because people who make porn feel there's not that much demand for it? I mean, if women loved porn as much as men, and there was good money to be made catering to that desire, then why on earth wouldn't makers of porn do it? Look at romance novels. They're written for women, not men, because the demand comes from women. Romance novel writers and publishers aren't going to make much money writing romance novels for guys. (I do think that, to some extent, makers of porn underestimated female demand for it and I believe there is now a lot more female-oriented porn than there was before.)
More...
Good point about dildos, Allie. Many (I'm assuming) women use dildos or vibrators to get off, even though they have a boyfriend or husband, and I doubt they're always thinking about their guy while doing so.
* * * * *
95/erin: as one of the much-maligned feminists who has the audacity to question a dude's inalienable right to close-ups of the pink despite the skeezy situations that may arise in production...
Erin, a couple questions for you...
1. Can you define what you see as "skeezy" situations in porn production, or give some examples?
2. If there were, hypothetically, none of these "skeezy" situations, would you still object to men watching porn?
Thanks.
* * * * *
96/a woman: Can we stop with "Men are visual"? Of course they are. So are women. Humans are visual. Porn is not made for women so of course we don't like it.
When I was younger, I bought into the idea that "men are visual" (with its implied counterpart that "women are not.") But now, while I still think that men are somewhat more visual than women, I know that women are very visual too. For example, although many women like to pretend otherwise, what's "on the outside" of man matters to them. A lot. A guy could be a great guy on the inside, but if a woman doesn't like his body or his face (or both), she's not going to want an intimate relationship with him. So yeah, I agree with you: humans are visual. Looks matter to us.
As general rule, if a person feels there's money to be made selling something, they will create and market that good or service. If porn (or most porn) is not made for women, isn't it likely because people who make porn feel there's not that much demand for it? I mean, if women loved porn as much as men, and there was good money to be made catering to that desire, then why on earth wouldn't makers of porn do it? Look at romance novels. They're written for women, not men, because the demand comes from women. Romance novel writers and publishers aren't going to make much money writing romance novels for guys. (I do think that, to some extent, makers of porn underestimated female demand for it and I believe there is now a lot more female-oriented porn than there was before.)
104
@95 (erin), I don't think you're much-maligned -- you're just wrong, on several counts. (My main contention: since there is no exact science of social engineering, debating the "effects of porn" on society as a whole is at best dilettantism...; the production is not worse than for many other jobs, and if it were indeed bad the solution would be to improve working conditions, not stop the whole thing; the effects of repeated exposure should be researched, not claimed as fact; other than that... when you belittle men's inalienable right to close-ups of the pink, you're using the same kind of dismissive tsk-tsk-they-are-just-little-children argument that feminists fought against when they were used against women.)
Other than that, you're not malign. I have no problems talking to people who I disagree with, and I don't assume they have evil intentions. I actually enjoy debating issues like this one with people who have some knowledge and experience and new ideas to share. I hope you return the compliment to me, a staunch defender of men's (and women's) inalienable right to close-ups of the pink (or of the hard-on...).
Other than that, you're not malign. I have no problems talking to people who I disagree with, and I don't assume they have evil intentions. I actually enjoy debating issues like this one with people who have some knowledge and experience and new ideas to share. I hope you return the compliment to me, a staunch defender of men's (and women's) inalienable right to close-ups of the pink (or of the hard-on...).
105
Roma (@103), according to Violet Blue, women's interest in porn has been increasing steadily (see her Our Porn, Ourselves blog and the polemics it raised at Facebook).
And I wouldn't dismiss men's interest in written erotica, including even romance novels. (I, for one, love learning foreign languages; romance novles in languages I'm trying to learn have both the attraction of the new language--and of the enjoyable erotic scenes, all complete with the little taboo words that your usual teach-yourself-Language-X books don't list in their vocabularies...)
And I wouldn't dismiss men's interest in written erotica, including even romance novels. (I, for one, love learning foreign languages; romance novles in languages I'm trying to learn have both the attraction of the new language--and of the enjoyable erotic scenes, all complete with the little taboo words that your usual teach-yourself-Language-X books don't list in their vocabularies...)
106
101 : oh, yeah, IBTP so often it makes my head hurt. she puts things in funny, straightforward and applicable sound-bitey ways.
103: well, there's the whole male-female power dynamic stuff of a woman trying to sell sex to someone which puts her in the less powerful position. There's the incredibly narrow aesthetic standard. There's young women competing to please older, richer producers. There's the whole mess of STD testing and the waivers of anonymity that go on. Like I have to keep going with skeezy situations that arise in production of porn. And I don't think I would watch it if there were no skeezy aspects of a porn's production, unless that meant that there were no more gender-based power dynamics, stigma attached to female sexual freedom, and all that jazz.
HA! I just realized you asked me if I would object to men watching porn, but I responded talking about if I would watch porn. I never said I objected to men watching porn (in the last porn fight thread I was commenting on I used a "I hate the oil industry but I drive a car" analogy) but I do think it is ok to question the use of porn and think it through, which is usually all it takes to get people up in arms and freaking out about how I am fighting to curtail their personal freedoms. B) that's kind of funny in a men have active sexuality, women provide the fodder kind of way.
103: well, there's the whole male-female power dynamic stuff of a woman trying to sell sex to someone which puts her in the less powerful position. There's the incredibly narrow aesthetic standard. There's young women competing to please older, richer producers. There's the whole mess of STD testing and the waivers of anonymity that go on. Like I have to keep going with skeezy situations that arise in production of porn. And I don't think I would watch it if there were no skeezy aspects of a porn's production, unless that meant that there were no more gender-based power dynamics, stigma attached to female sexual freedom, and all that jazz.
HA! I just realized you asked me if I would object to men watching porn, but I responded talking about if I would watch porn. I never said I objected to men watching porn (in the last porn fight thread I was commenting on I used a "I hate the oil industry but I drive a car" analogy) but I do think it is ok to question the use of porn and think it through, which is usually all it takes to get people up in arms and freaking out about how I am fighting to curtail their personal freedoms. B) that's kind of funny in a men have active sexuality, women provide the fodder kind of way.
107
Erin (106):
(a) the whole male-female power dynamic stuff isn't (inasmuch as it still exists) a prerrogative of porn, or of women trying to sell sex -- it's everywhere. To see it more strongly in (nondescript) porn is to assume that sex has to be based on whatever power imbalances a society happens to have -- which isn't the case. Porn, even in its current (very) imperfect state, is just so varied -- there's something for everyone and every taste (especially in the case of reversed, or absent, power dynamics)
(b) the incredibly narrow aesthetic standard is again a function of what you look at -- romance novels and "low brow" literature also has an "incredibly narrow aesthetic standard" without this meaning that the stuff in itself is bad (or that the better literary work should be dismissed also). If your taste in porn is for more aesthetic forms, you can find it -- you just have to look for it. (My personal tastes, for instance, involve much more storyline than is usually available, which means I have to do some research to find my porn -- but I can attest it is possible and doable).
(c) Young women competing to please older, richer producers? Don't you mean simply workers competing to please their employers? In what way does the age make it any worse? (In general, in the workforce, workers are less aged than employers; is that bad?)
(d) The whole mess of STD testing: as you may know, STD testing (including HIV) is nearly obligatory in the porn industry, thanks (among other factors) to the efforts of concerned porn stars like Nina Hartley. It seems that the chance of porn stars getting AIDS is now much smaller than in the average population.
(e) you don't think you would watch it anyway -- that's fine, you don't have to. Just don't think that us consumers, or the industry itself, is somehow 'bad' or 'inherently skeezy'. I don't like philatelists (I'm not simply neutral, I really don't like them -- I've had some bad experiences), but this doesn't mean I think their hobby is bad, or should be stopped.
(f) is it OK to question the use of porn? Sure it is, because it is OK to question the use of ANYTHING. But it is also OK to answer and debate. I am defending the opposing viewpoint, and I hope I am (respectfully) making a good case -- your comments would be welcome.
(g) are you fighting to curtail their personal freedoms? Well, if you don't want to exaggerate (and you said you don't), then let's keep the discussion down. You're now "fighting to curtail their personal freedom"; in your tone of voice, when you go beyond merely discussing/debating porn related issues, what I feel is that you tsk-tsk them from a position of moral superiority; this may be a bit pretentious, which is why I think you get the reaction that you mention. If you refrain from condescending language, this kind of reaction should disappear (or at least be limited to the few nutjobs).
More...
(a) the whole male-female power dynamic stuff isn't (inasmuch as it still exists) a prerrogative of porn, or of women trying to sell sex -- it's everywhere. To see it more strongly in (nondescript) porn is to assume that sex has to be based on whatever power imbalances a society happens to have -- which isn't the case. Porn, even in its current (very) imperfect state, is just so varied -- there's something for everyone and every taste (especially in the case of reversed, or absent, power dynamics)
(b) the incredibly narrow aesthetic standard is again a function of what you look at -- romance novels and "low brow" literature also has an "incredibly narrow aesthetic standard" without this meaning that the stuff in itself is bad (or that the better literary work should be dismissed also). If your taste in porn is for more aesthetic forms, you can find it -- you just have to look for it. (My personal tastes, for instance, involve much more storyline than is usually available, which means I have to do some research to find my porn -- but I can attest it is possible and doable).
(c) Young women competing to please older, richer producers? Don't you mean simply workers competing to please their employers? In what way does the age make it any worse? (In general, in the workforce, workers are less aged than employers; is that bad?)
(d) The whole mess of STD testing: as you may know, STD testing (including HIV) is nearly obligatory in the porn industry, thanks (among other factors) to the efforts of concerned porn stars like Nina Hartley. It seems that the chance of porn stars getting AIDS is now much smaller than in the average population.
(e) you don't think you would watch it anyway -- that's fine, you don't have to. Just don't think that us consumers, or the industry itself, is somehow 'bad' or 'inherently skeezy'. I don't like philatelists (I'm not simply neutral, I really don't like them -- I've had some bad experiences), but this doesn't mean I think their hobby is bad, or should be stopped.
(f) is it OK to question the use of porn? Sure it is, because it is OK to question the use of ANYTHING. But it is also OK to answer and debate. I am defending the opposing viewpoint, and I hope I am (respectfully) making a good case -- your comments would be welcome.
(g) are you fighting to curtail their personal freedoms? Well, if you don't want to exaggerate (and you said you don't), then let's keep the discussion down. You're now "fighting to curtail their personal freedom"; in your tone of voice, when you go beyond merely discussing/debating porn related issues, what I feel is that you tsk-tsk them from a position of moral superiority; this may be a bit pretentious, which is why I think you get the reaction that you mention. If you refrain from condescending language, this kind of reaction should disappear (or at least be limited to the few nutjobs).
108
Erin -- a typo in my message says the OPPOSITE of what I wanted to say!
Where I wrote: "You're now "fighting to curtail their personal freedom", I meant to write "You're NOT 'fighting to curtail their personal freedom'". Very sorry about that! I should have re-read that thing before posting it...
Where I wrote: "You're now "fighting to curtail their personal freedom", I meant to write "You're NOT 'fighting to curtail their personal freedom'". Very sorry about that! I should have re-read that thing before posting it...
109
Yeah, to be honest, Erin, that was the message I got on the last porn post, that if men were *evolved* enough, they wouldn't need porn, and that you wondered if it was "good" for society in general to watch porn. I think that's an example of the larger issue, that people couch porn in terms of good or bad, as though it's a moral issue, rather than seeing it as a tool in the arsenal of what gets people off. You'd get the same reaction from women if a male commenter suggested the use of vibrators wasn't good for society.
110
After they break up, I want an introduction. I dream of an extraordinarily beautiful woman who wants to measure my ejaculate on a daily basis.
111
Okay...I am a doctor , straight, a woman, mother and 41. Personally porn does nothing for me but my ex-husband needed it in his daily life. She needs to get the FUCK over it already! On the other hand I do see how having a woman who gives it up once a day gives him pause....Bottom line is still that a woman who can not separate her self esteem from her boyfriend's need for porn after 4 years together and daily sex probably does not equal a fixable problem. That is a different issue altogether. I have a conversation fairly regularly with the mothers of 14 year old boys about the fact that the cable bill had $80 of porn on it...it goes like this....me: that is completely normal at this age, I suggest you add a password to your account. Mom: but he was looking at nasty pictures, he did it last year and we blocked porn but then he was good so we unblocked it....me: this is completely normal at his age and I think you should block porn if you don't want unexpected bills (and then I say very directly to the kid) this is completely normal and you should not abuse your parents trust by ordering things that cost them money because you think you will not have to worry about the charges for at least one month. Me: (to parents) block porn and never bring it up again, (to the boy) You are normal. Most mothers are stunned and still want to tell me what a pervert their child is! I have to keep repeating very clearly and succinctly that their son is entirely normal for a male of his species and they should let it go! Now, teens are terrible at remembering to clear their internet histories even when they think they have, so we would check every once in a while to make sure he didn't search anything weird like kids or goats and what we learned was he likes beautiful women of color (Indian, black, latina...) so therefore he wasn't gay. Gay was totally dealable but knowing ahead of time was so much better! I guess my point is that a guy who needs porn is normal and women who tie that to their self esteem need a reality check!
More...
112
Use a second browser, dedicated solely to porn. I use Firefox for regular browsing, Opera for porn. When I delete my porn history, I do not lose my useful internet history.
Opera is also way safer for your computer.
Is there any good alternative to deleting my internet history...?
Use a second browser, dedicated solely to porn. I use Firefox for regular browsing, Opera for porn. When I delete my porn history, I do not lose my useful internet history.
Opera is also way safer for your computer.
113
Speaking as a straight, vanilla, feminist woman. . . That woman is a controlling bitch. DTMFA. She monitors your computer? She doesn't want you to ever jack off? She uses porn but you're not allowed to? She agrees to your using it, and then repeatedly gets into fights about it again? How freaking crazy is that? How will you ever make peace with her? DTMFA. Or plan to live a life in the closet, with two browsers and hiding and lying about all sorts of stuff. (I bet her controlling doesn't stop with sex, or won't if they move in together.) The sex with her must be really really hot or you'd have left her already. But long term, it can't be worth it.
115
Break up? Seriously? They have sex _every_ _day_. So she's nuts. We don't get to hear about the ways he is nuts. Everybody is whacked about something. But he'll look for a long time, in all likelihood, before getting daily nookie again.
116
@51: Um. It's still his dick. I agree a guy should be considerate, but if he jacks off every so often without realizing you were jonesing for sex, then whatever. There's a fine line between asking for some personal courtesy and making him feel like he's your private sex toy.
If he's making you actually feel like you're not getting enough on a regular basis, OK, you guys have something to talk about.
As for LW, ugh. That you didn't just say, "OF COURSE" when Dan advised you to run away from a crazy insane ejaculate-measuring psycho means you deserve this. Sorry.
If he's making you actually feel like you're not getting enough on a regular basis, OK, you guys have something to talk about.
As for LW, ugh. That you didn't just say, "OF COURSE" when Dan advised you to run away from a crazy insane ejaculate-measuring psycho means you deserve this. Sorry.
117
#33, You said 'Heterosexuals are so touchy. Every last one of them!'
If someone said anything like that about homosexuals, all of them, your panties would be in a bunch faster than a gay man could get some dick in a sex club! FUCK YOU!!!
So, did you have some sort of solution, or was that just a stone throw from far back just so you can claim moral high ground.
If someone said anything like that about homosexuals, all of them, your panties would be in a bunch faster than a gay man could get some dick in a sex club! FUCK YOU!!!
So, did you have some sort of solution, or was that just a stone throw from far back just so you can claim moral high ground.
118
Also: "She looks at porn too, and says that she feels guilty getting off on someone who is not her SO, and doesn't understand why I don't feel guilty in doing the same."
Oh my God, I would NOT be able to co-exist with someone crammed with such self-loathing.
@115: Honestly, he doesn't have to be nuts. Some women and men just really enjoy owning the hell out of their SOs. She's staying because she gets to control him.
And really, to her? The way he's "nuts" is jerking off to porn even though she's giving him sex every day. Not sure what letter you read.
Oh my God, I would NOT be able to co-exist with someone crammed with such self-loathing.
@115: Honestly, he doesn't have to be nuts. Some women and men just really enjoy owning the hell out of their SOs. She's staying because she gets to control him.
And really, to her? The way he's "nuts" is jerking off to porn even though she's giving him sex every day. Not sure what letter you read.
119
Sweet Jesus that's crazy. The ejaculate-measuring is at least as scary and inaccurate as hymenal inspection/looking for blood on a woman's wedding night to prove virginity or trying to judge sexual history/present activity by vaginal "tightness" (the closest analogues I can come up with), as ejaculate volume varies with hydration and a host of other factors, including length of arousal before ejaculation. It's not like the body stores semen (sperm cells, yes): it creates it on-demand as part of the arousal response. The girlfriend needs therapy for the creepy-controlling behavior patterns and the sexual shame/repression (she masturbates to porn and then feels guilty about it), and you need to run like hell if she's unwilling to take steps to get better.
@103/Roma: Thank you for countering the "men are inherently more visual" bullshit. A lot of the observed correlation in this direction could be explained by the fact that EVERYONE is socialized to think that looks are more important than personality/education/money/etc. for women in trying to establish sexual relationships with men, while women (though not necessarily men) are socialized to weight non-visual aspects more in partner-selection (not that it works - most of the women I know care WAY more about looks-that-conform-to-normative-standards than I, and about on-par with most of the men I know, not that this is in any way "bad" or "good"; I don't think my less-visual selection is in any way better, and, in fact, it limits my dating pool much more severely, as the social pressures make straight women whom I find interesting in much shorter supply than straight women who conform to normative beauty standards). Now, I don't have any evidence that supports my socialization theory over a biological one, but I DO know that the difference in visual selection between genders is WAY overstated, if it exists at all, and that there is a similar lack of evidence for the biological theory. This letter is a fucking case-in-point: the girlfriend watches porn too (and feels guilty because she's been socialized to do so). I also second fixing problems in the porn industry, not crying for it's elimination. Erin brought up the power dynamic in women trading sex for money, but, of course, the male porn actors do this too... Granted a lot of porn is still by-men for-men and reinforces unrealistic and misogynist sexual stereotypes, but there's a growing industry of woman-made porn, and of course the internet has given us plenty of by-couple for-everyone amateur porn (the real stuff, not the studio-produced "amateur" porn with the paid actors, making it decidedly not amateur). Finally, if one can view porn as fantasy and not representative of normal sexual activity, I'm not even convinced that the misogynist-stereotype-reinforcing stuff is all that damaging (this absolutely requires the ability to interpret porn as fantasy-only, though, which a problematic number of people do not, particularly with teens getting an abstinence-only message from schools, nothing from parents, and only inaccurate depictions of sexual activity in mass media/porn).
More...
@103/Roma: Thank you for countering the "men are inherently more visual" bullshit. A lot of the observed correlation in this direction could be explained by the fact that EVERYONE is socialized to think that looks are more important than personality/education/money/etc. for women in trying to establish sexual relationships with men, while women (though not necessarily men) are socialized to weight non-visual aspects more in partner-selection (not that it works - most of the women I know care WAY more about looks-that-conform-to-normative-standards than I, and about on-par with most of the men I know, not that this is in any way "bad" or "good"; I don't think my less-visual selection is in any way better, and, in fact, it limits my dating pool much more severely, as the social pressures make straight women whom I find interesting in much shorter supply than straight women who conform to normative beauty standards). Now, I don't have any evidence that supports my socialization theory over a biological one, but I DO know that the difference in visual selection between genders is WAY overstated, if it exists at all, and that there is a similar lack of evidence for the biological theory. This letter is a fucking case-in-point: the girlfriend watches porn too (and feels guilty because she's been socialized to do so). I also second fixing problems in the porn industry, not crying for it's elimination. Erin brought up the power dynamic in women trading sex for money, but, of course, the male porn actors do this too... Granted a lot of porn is still by-men for-men and reinforces unrealistic and misogynist sexual stereotypes, but there's a growing industry of woman-made porn, and of course the internet has given us plenty of by-couple for-everyone amateur porn (the real stuff, not the studio-produced "amateur" porn with the paid actors, making it decidedly not amateur). Finally, if one can view porn as fantasy and not representative of normal sexual activity, I'm not even convinced that the misogynist-stereotype-reinforcing stuff is all that damaging (this absolutely requires the ability to interpret porn as fantasy-only, though, which a problematic number of people do not, particularly with teens getting an abstinence-only message from schools, nothing from parents, and only inaccurate depictions of sexual activity in mass media/porn).
120
Conclusion from a good friend:
She inspects the volume of his ejaculation?
Here is what he should do:
Move state
change his name
disown all the people they both know
fake his death
She inspects the volume of his ejaculation?
Here is what he should do:
Move state
change his name
disown all the people they both know
fake his death
122
@ 3 Yes! This is SO fake!
And if I hear one more person say "men are visual creatures" as though women's eyeballs are detached at the root, I'm going to shove one of my detachable eyeballs up that person's left nostril.
Can we all please tell Savage that unless he stops pushing sexism, we're breaking up with him?
And if I hear one more person say "men are visual creatures" as though women's eyeballs are detached at the root, I'm going to shove one of my detachable eyeballs up that person's left nostril.
Can we all please tell Savage that unless he stops pushing sexism, we're breaking up with him?
123
@107 (ankylosaur)
Now I'm very curious about your bad experiences with philatelists. (Lick it before you stick it!)
@ 115 (honeyandacid)
Why would you think that "he'll look for a long time, in all likelihood, before getting daily nookie again"? Women who like sex are not rare. Am I missing something?
Now I'm very curious about your bad experiences with philatelists. (Lick it before you stick it!)
@ 115 (honeyandacid)
Why would you think that "he'll look for a long time, in all likelihood, before getting daily nookie again"? Women who like sex are not rare. Am I missing something?
124
@123: Well, you're sort of saying a different thing. Women who like sex may not necessarily be up for having it *every day.* And even among women who *love* sex (now ... that could always change down the road due to physical chemistry or lifestyle change) it's very difficult to conclusively say how many of those could or would have sex every day.
125
God, this pisses me off for so many reasons.
Anyway, there's a very good reason as to why men masturbate (even when there's an available woman or available women to enjoy): it's an orgasm that doesn't come with the risk of disappointment (assuming that a one-a-day man is smart enough to brush up on his oral-digital skills to keep his partner in the loop.) The inability to understand that concept is one of the things that I'll never understand about women (especially in consideration of the amount of women who complain about having unsatisfactory sex. Seriously, would you rather have bad sex once a week or decent sex three times a week? Because if you're demanding that your man only has sex with you and noone or nothing else, but you're also willing to act as his personal semen-collector, you're going to have far more episodes of plain to boring sex than good.)
Anyway, there's a very good reason as to why men masturbate (even when there's an available woman or available women to enjoy): it's an orgasm that doesn't come with the risk of disappointment (assuming that a one-a-day man is smart enough to brush up on his oral-digital skills to keep his partner in the loop.) The inability to understand that concept is one of the things that I'll never understand about women (especially in consideration of the amount of women who complain about having unsatisfactory sex. Seriously, would you rather have bad sex once a week or decent sex three times a week? Because if you're demanding that your man only has sex with you and noone or nothing else, but you're also willing to act as his personal semen-collector, you're going to have far more episodes of plain to boring sex than good.)
126
@124:
Fair enough, but I don't think women who like sex at least once a day are all that rare either, especially if you specifically look for that, and it's what's most important to you. Am I wrong about that?
I'm baffled by all these people out there who think that there are things more important than sexual compatibility, and then complain that their partner doesn't want sex enough. If you like sex at least once a day, don't date someone who doesn't, and don't be as picky about other things.
Fair enough, but I don't think women who like sex at least once a day are all that rare either, especially if you specifically look for that, and it's what's most important to you. Am I wrong about that?
I'm baffled by all these people out there who think that there are things more important than sexual compatibility, and then complain that their partner doesn't want sex enough. If you like sex at least once a day, don't date someone who doesn't, and don't be as picky about other things.
Advertisement
Most Commented on Slog
-
SL Letter of the Day: Life Sentence by Dan Savage
-
SL Letter of the Day: Daddy Loves Who? by Dan Savage
-
Required Listening: Howard Stern on Ellen, JC Penney, Bullied Gay Kids, Rosie, Santorum, Bachmann, et al by Dan Savage
-
Crowdsourcing Uncut Police Video from the Dec. 12 Occupy Protest at the Port of Seattle by Eli Sanders
-
State Legislator Testifies That His Opposition to Same-Sex Marriage Came to Him from a Commercial for Jack in the Box by Christopher Frizzelle
-
"Let me be the first one to say: My business will refuse to participate in a same-sex marriage ceremony," by Republican Representative Matt Shea of the Spokane Valley by Eli Sanders
-
The Onion Is on a Roll: "Iran Worried U.S. Might Be Building 8,500th Nuclear Weapon" by Charles Mudede
-
"I don't know if I want to be here [if gay marriage passes]," by Republican State Senator Jay Rodne of North Bend by Eli Sanders
-
The AP Is Reporting That Whitney Houston Is Dead by Paul Constant
-
Announcing The Stranger's Tournament of Dunces! Who's the Dumbest Representative in the State House? by Christopher Frizzelle
RSS
Facebook
Twitter
Comments (126) RSS