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News & ArtsFriday, September 3, 2010
Politics John Cole Is Mad As Hell And He's Not Going To Take It Anymore
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 3:18 PM
John Cole was getting his haircut at a barbershop with a handful of old timers—all Fox News viewers—and he held his tongue while the men complained about how Obama was destroying the country, wanted to see everyone on welfare, the country is going to hell in a hand basket, etc., etc. When one of the men said, “You can’t even pray anymore. Christians get stopped from praying, but Muslims get to pray," Cole lost it:
“When was the last time someone stopped you from praying,” I asked.He seemed startled—“Me, never. But they…”
I cut him off—“And when was the last time anyone stopped anyone you know from praying?”
“Well, I don’t personally know of anyone…”
“So who exactly is stopping people from praying?”
And then he went on a rant about saying the Declaration of Independence at the Jefferson “monument.” I just rolled my eyes and kept to myself.
I made a vow, though. In the interest of politeness, I’ve ignored this stuff in public before. I figure I will do my ranting online. But not any more. Any time I am confronted with this nonsense in the future, I am aggressively and publicly challenging these idiots. I can’t take it any more. The damage Rupert Murdoch and those like him have done to this country needs to be countered.
Anyone else want to take that vow?
1
Yes. Yes, I will take that vow.
I, Erin Margaret Day, vow to call people out on their blind belief in obvious bullshit that is dangerous and viral in public and make as smart, engaging, and educational a spectacle as I can of it.
I, Erin Margaret Day, vow to call people out on their blind belief in obvious bullshit that is dangerous and viral in public and make as smart, engaging, and educational a spectacle as I can of it.
2
Took that vow a long time ago. Ms. Baconcat gets this look on his face when he spots any type of hyper conservative or super-delusional lib in our midst, an "oh god, stay put, oh god, don't, oh god, you're going aren't you?" kind of look.
5
IT'S MY MONEY AND I NEED IT NOW!
...wait...
I, Gavriel Shai Ya'akovi, do hereby pledge to strive publicly and to the greatest extent of my intellect against the culture of idiocy and misinformation waged by the forces of the radical right.
...wait...
I, Gavriel Shai Ya'akovi, do hereby pledge to strive publicly and to the greatest extent of my intellect against the culture of idiocy and misinformation waged by the forces of the radical right.
6
I wrote to Dan about a situation with my 16 year old lesbian niece not long ago. In that letter, I vowed to call out my family if they spouted their homophobia around her at a family reunion. I now extend that vow to include all hyper ignorant bullshit I hear spouted by the right wing nutcases I find myself stuck around.
8
Your interlocultor may not have been very articulate, but he is right that there are cases of public institutions that disallow organized Christrian prayer while bending over backwards to accomodate organized muslim prayer: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007….
9
It's like Jesus used to say: You can lead a dinosaur to water, but you can't make him drink vodka.
13
David Wright´s referenced 2007 USA Today article is an enthralling read. I can´t believe I wasn´t informed of the Islamist conspiracy earlier.
...
Vow taken.
...
Vow taken.
14
I've been doing it for years now, and the number one weapon at your disposal is to stay hyper-informed in contrast.
It's also really nice to ask people what their sources are.
It's also really nice to ask people what their sources are.
16
@8: Weird... the article you cite is from 2007, and yet the context in which the old gent was referring to it was in the context of "Obama taking over everything".
Huh.
Huh.
17
vow already taken when I decided to stop letting the wack jobs take over Christianity. I will be making shirts soon that say, "Jesus was a liberal Jew" closely followed by shirts that say, "If I didn't believe in gun control, I already would have shot your a$$." "Amendments are part of the Constitution, you DMFA" and others....
18
I took that vow in 1998, and have been making conservofascists miserable everysince.
BombasticMO @14 is right. "...the number one weapon at your disposal is to stay hyper-informed."
It does't hurt to be loud and obnoxious, as well as informed.
BombasticMO @14 is right. "...the number one weapon at your disposal is to stay hyper-informed."
It does't hurt to be loud and obnoxious, as well as informed.
19
there isn't enough time in the day to put even the smallest dent against the lies murdoch and faux noise have spewed on the intellectually challenged right over the years.
20
I missed the opportunity to ask a DMF across the dinner table from me why, exactly, Obama scares him, and I regret that every time it comes to mind.
Never again.
Never again.
22
I am renewing the vow. I have never really held back anyway.
And while we're on the subject, who the fuck is taking away their precious guns? What new piece of gun legislation has been proposed in the last two years. Trust me, I wish there was.
Oh, and while I am handing the next old, racist fucker his ass I will also cheerfully remind him that I vote, always - and will be voting long after his cadaver is thoroughly rotten and turned to utter corruption.
And while we're on the subject, who the fuck is taking away their precious guns? What new piece of gun legislation has been proposed in the last two years. Trust me, I wish there was.
Oh, and while I am handing the next old, racist fucker his ass I will also cheerfully remind him that I vote, always - and will be voting long after his cadaver is thoroughly rotten and turned to utter corruption.
26
@DavidWright
The difference between organized Christian prayer being disallowed in schools and Muslim prayer rooms/time/mats being allowed is that the Christian prayer in question is mandatory, while the Muslim prayer is voluntary. You are not allowed to broadcast a prayer of any kind over the PA in the morning or require the class to recite a prayer. Students of any religion are allowed to pray privately or in groups. If the Christian faith required prayer at certain times of the day, we would build Christian prayer rooms for the Christian kids to pray in.
The difference between organized Christian prayer being disallowed in schools and Muslim prayer rooms/time/mats being allowed is that the Christian prayer in question is mandatory, while the Muslim prayer is voluntary. You are not allowed to broadcast a prayer of any kind over the PA in the morning or require the class to recite a prayer. Students of any religion are allowed to pray privately or in groups. If the Christian faith required prayer at certain times of the day, we would build Christian prayer rooms for the Christian kids to pray in.
27
@8
The difference between organized Christian prayer being disallowed in schools and Muslim prayer rooms/time/mats being allowed is that the Christian prayer in question is mandatory, while the Muslim prayer is voluntary. You are not allowed to broadcast a prayer of any kind over the PA in the morning or require the class to recite a prayer. Students of any religion are allowed to pray privately or in groups. If the Christian faith required prayer at certain times of the day, we would build Christian prayer rooms for the Christian kids to pray in.
The difference between organized Christian prayer being disallowed in schools and Muslim prayer rooms/time/mats being allowed is that the Christian prayer in question is mandatory, while the Muslim prayer is voluntary. You are not allowed to broadcast a prayer of any kind over the PA in the morning or require the class to recite a prayer. Students of any religion are allowed to pray privately or in groups. If the Christian faith required prayer at certain times of the day, we would build Christian prayer rooms for the Christian kids to pray in.
28
I vow also. I've been hating on myself for not calling bullshit on a guy selling "Real Change" by the Bartells on E. Madison last Tues. He was telling his buddy that "Real Change" was the only voice of truth in Seattle. He likened it to the works of Thomas Paine and the revolutionary tract writers. He went into a real libertarian rant against "The Stranger" (a nest of liberals, and he said liberals as i f it were a really dirty word). "The Weekly" (rich people); "The Seattle Times" (slave to business). All true in their way but I coudn't help but think that it's pretty much only liberals who buy "Real Change" and support causes like The Urban Hygeine Center and provide safe space and support for the Tent City. Was it not liberals who helped bring the opposition to "Real Change" moving its headquarters to Pioneer Square out in the open and advocated for them.? I stopped myself from dissing him because he was homeless and I was taught to never hit a man when he is down, but that dudes not down, he's deluded.
29
@26/27 - this is one time that Slog's tendency to hiccup and then duplicate a comment is actually helpful. It was nice to read that, and then read it again.
30
@22: "Oh, and while I am handing the next old, racist fucker his ass I will also cheerfully remind him that I vote, always - and will be voting long after his cadaver is thoroughly rotten and turned to utter corruption."
Look at most Republican candidates. "[C]adaver", "thoroughly rotten", and "turned to utter corruption" ALREADY describe most of them.
Rimshot, please.
Look at most Republican candidates. "[C]adaver", "thoroughly rotten", and "turned to utter corruption" ALREADY describe most of them.
Rimshot, please.
31
Yes, I'll take that vow. And I call on those we turn to, bloggers and commentators, to be certain they verify before posting or source heavily what they share, so we can all be better informed and share the truths without getting caught up in shenanigans.
34
22
you are awesome....
who ya voting for next time around?
Obama?
again?
that's gotta feel real good.......
you are awesome....
who ya voting for next time around?
Obama?
again?
that's gotta feel real good.......
35
I think I'm gonna vote for Obama again.
When I get them to squirm-I Gain
Some people whine with no clue
Conspiracy and you.
When I get them to squirm-I Gain
Some people whine with no clue
Conspiracy and you.
36
This happens to my dad about once a month, with the old-timers at the cafe where he has coffee every morning. They've finally figured out that if they use racial epithets or talks bad about women and "teh homoseksuals", my 70+ year old da will take them outside and wipe the floor with them. He kicks all kinds of ass.
41
I endured a similar barber shop conversation the day before the 2008 presidential election and I held my tongue because the guy talking was the guy cutting. If there's ever a next time, I'll walk out.
43
Vowed. Unfortunately, the only time I'll probably have to make good on it is whenever I go home to visit relatives - something I am loathe to do even under the best of circumstances.
44
Same thing with Sarah Palin and the death panel lies--manipulating and stirring up the ignorant and uninformed do a tremendous amount of damage. Ironically, what were called death panels, besides their obvious benefits to people and their families near the end of their lives, probably would have saved the government a lot of money, which is these propagandists' talking point of the moment.
45
Rules of engagement. The pros at debate and persuasion offer some suggestions.
One, always be polite, no shouting or ranting it tunes out any effective listening. Speak in a calm, conversational tone and stay on topic.
Two, acknowledge their point of view, even that old sexist gas bag St. Paul ( oops personal insults are a no-no too) would comment positively on the locals religious habits them suggest a new improved God, the Christian God in his patter. He would have been a great car salesman.
Three, as pointed out always call the person on the source of the information they are repeating. Make it personal. Where did you hear this? What is the motive behind such claims? Where is the proof? Have you been directly affected?
When the dictator of Romania was arrested ( I can't spell his name, sorry) People told stories of the secret police to a Western reporter who promptly asked if anyone in the crowd had ever been arrested or knew anyone taken away by the police and surprise! none of them could. They were brainwashed to believe it just like these people believe what they hear. Critical thinking is what we're teaching here.
Now go forth and educate.
One, always be polite, no shouting or ranting it tunes out any effective listening. Speak in a calm, conversational tone and stay on topic.
Two, acknowledge their point of view, even that old sexist gas bag St. Paul ( oops personal insults are a no-no too) would comment positively on the locals religious habits them suggest a new improved God, the Christian God in his patter. He would have been a great car salesman.
Three, as pointed out always call the person on the source of the information they are repeating. Make it personal. Where did you hear this? What is the motive behind such claims? Where is the proof? Have you been directly affected?
When the dictator of Romania was arrested ( I can't spell his name, sorry) People told stories of the secret police to a Western reporter who promptly asked if anyone in the crowd had ever been arrested or knew anyone taken away by the police and surprise! none of them could. They were brainwashed to believe it just like these people believe what they hear. Critical thinking is what we're teaching here.
Now go forth and educate.
46
Vow taken! This should be fun. I tend bar in the shitsplat floodplain town of Hamilton in east Skagit county, so I'm sure you can imagine the rabid nonsense spewing from many local mouths. I challenge the teabag sympathizers to pay me a visit and leave still believing their movement isn't primarily made up of howling bigots. Of course, my tips may suffer.
47
Well, when I do it it is more of a polite challenge than an agressive one... but yeah vow already taken.
It is more effective in person than online anyway.
It is more effective in person than online anyway.
48
Lymanites of the '80s unite!
Grin and bear it.R there any "Civilised" places to grab a real Stranger and drink heavily while you read. Errr... I mean does the Riggin Room subscribe?
Grin and bear it.R there any "Civilised" places to grab a real Stranger and drink heavily while you read. Errr... I mean does the Riggin Room subscribe?
49
Already took this vow and have sometimes alienated acquaintances, but if they're free to spout off idiotically then I'm free to counter. To sit silently is like absorbing poison - must spit it out.
51
I think I'm a little more conservative than your average SLOG poster (full disclosure--I'm pro-concealed carry), but I live in DC and was thus out and about during the recent Tea Party rally. I spent a happy hour standing on the Metro platform at Metro Center, politely giving them wrong directions.
52
I have started doing that as well. It hasn't won me extra friends, but it has stopped a couple of rhetorical bullies in their tracks. The latest was some idiot complaining about how Obama has taken more vacation days than any other president in history.
I grabbed him by the scrufff of the neck and showed him how easy it was to demolish his argument via a simple google search. His response: Well we know that the internet is in the hands of "the liberals".
I grabbed him by the scrufff of the neck and showed him how easy it was to demolish his argument via a simple google search. His response: Well we know that the internet is in the hands of "the liberals".
53
I hereby take an explicit oath to speak out against ignorant bullshit wherever I hear it, within the confines of the law (no arguing with airport security about their intrusive and ineffective tactics).
Of course, I've been doing this for years; calling people out for using gay/fag/faggot in online video games is always an adventure. Just last night I got into a huge argument with a friend's friend over her "career" in pseudo-medicine ("cupping" and acupuncture, the argument over acupuncture being for the relief of things it does not directly impact outside of a directed placebo effect e.g. cancer, heartburn, headaches, smoking, dieting, depression, etc., not muscular or some nervous issues, on which it DOES have a direct impact). She was looking so cute until that point, too. :-( There's a definite cost, but I think we've hit the point where things are bad enough (creationism in schools, pseudo-medicine in the main-stream, people thinking Obama's a Muslim from Kenya, people blaming Obama for our wars - though he IS to blame for the recent Afghanistan escalation - and economic situation, people constructing our country's founders as fundamentalist Christians - not that what they thought 200 years ago is even of particular relevance to us now, etc.) that politeness is no longer an option.
@8: Actually, we do make accommodations for other religious observances; Christian holidays are already nominally-secularized days-off, and Jewish students in my schools have always been allowed to take Jewish holidays off without any penalty.
I actually disagree with all of this: I don't think we should be officially accommodating ANY religions in public institutions, nor providing unreasonable barriers to their practice. If Muslim students want to bring their own foot-baths and prayer-room-creating partitions, that's cool, but they should schedule their classes/work so that they have no commitments at times of day they need to pray, or go to a private school that accommodates them (same for Christians, Jews, Buddhists, animists, etc.). This is problematic: "...at least nine universities have prayer rooms for 'Muslim students only,' including Stanford, Emory and the University of Virginia, according to the MSA's website."
If you're doing that, you need equal accommodations for EVERY religion, which is impossible: chapels for Christians (with censors and candles and Christian Bibles etc.), Jewish temples (with kippot, tallitot, Sefer Torah, tefillin, etc.), Buddhist temples (with prayer mats, idols, incense, etc.), Hindu temples with associated paraphernalia, Shinto shrines, Neo-Pagan/Wiccan altars, Orisha shrines, Santeria shrines, Rastafarian temples allowing marijuana consumption, Jain temples, Sikh temples, Scientology centers with e-meters, and segregated spaces for the thousands of other religions that I can't think of off-hand. You would have no spaces left for classrooms. Religious toleration/freedom must mean that public institutions neither facilitate nor inhibit the individual practice of a religion (as long as those practices do not violate extant public policy).
So, yeah, segregated prayer rooms and foot-baths are just as wrong as crucifixes and the Ten Commandments. Religious freedom applies only to private practice - public spaces are free FROM religion, by default.
I did have a good time successfully challenging my high school's "no head-covering" policy on religious freedom grounds, citing religious discrimination, as Jewish and Muslim students were allowed head coverings in the name of religious accommodation.
More...
Of course, I've been doing this for years; calling people out for using gay/fag/faggot in online video games is always an adventure. Just last night I got into a huge argument with a friend's friend over her "career" in pseudo-medicine ("cupping" and acupuncture, the argument over acupuncture being for the relief of things it does not directly impact outside of a directed placebo effect e.g. cancer, heartburn, headaches, smoking, dieting, depression, etc., not muscular or some nervous issues, on which it DOES have a direct impact). She was looking so cute until that point, too. :-( There's a definite cost, but I think we've hit the point where things are bad enough (creationism in schools, pseudo-medicine in the main-stream, people thinking Obama's a Muslim from Kenya, people blaming Obama for our wars - though he IS to blame for the recent Afghanistan escalation - and economic situation, people constructing our country's founders as fundamentalist Christians - not that what they thought 200 years ago is even of particular relevance to us now, etc.) that politeness is no longer an option.
@8: Actually, we do make accommodations for other religious observances; Christian holidays are already nominally-secularized days-off, and Jewish students in my schools have always been allowed to take Jewish holidays off without any penalty.
I actually disagree with all of this: I don't think we should be officially accommodating ANY religions in public institutions, nor providing unreasonable barriers to their practice. If Muslim students want to bring their own foot-baths and prayer-room-creating partitions, that's cool, but they should schedule their classes/work so that they have no commitments at times of day they need to pray, or go to a private school that accommodates them (same for Christians, Jews, Buddhists, animists, etc.). This is problematic: "...at least nine universities have prayer rooms for 'Muslim students only,' including Stanford, Emory and the University of Virginia, according to the MSA's website."
If you're doing that, you need equal accommodations for EVERY religion, which is impossible: chapels for Christians (with censors and candles and Christian Bibles etc.), Jewish temples (with kippot, tallitot, Sefer Torah, tefillin, etc.), Buddhist temples (with prayer mats, idols, incense, etc.), Hindu temples with associated paraphernalia, Shinto shrines, Neo-Pagan/Wiccan altars, Orisha shrines, Santeria shrines, Rastafarian temples allowing marijuana consumption, Jain temples, Sikh temples, Scientology centers with e-meters, and segregated spaces for the thousands of other religions that I can't think of off-hand. You would have no spaces left for classrooms. Religious toleration/freedom must mean that public institutions neither facilitate nor inhibit the individual practice of a religion (as long as those practices do not violate extant public policy).
So, yeah, segregated prayer rooms and foot-baths are just as wrong as crucifixes and the Ten Commandments. Religious freedom applies only to private practice - public spaces are free FROM religion, by default.
I did have a good time successfully challenging my high school's "no head-covering" policy on religious freedom grounds, citing religious discrimination, as Jewish and Muslim students were allowed head coverings in the name of religious accommodation.
55
Been doing this for the last month. It's made for some awkwardness, but I can't stand it anymore.
56
lost a few friends around election-time '08 because of vows like this. guess I'll just have to keep it up.
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