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News & ArtsThursday, September 2, 2010
Transportation Twenty Does Not Seem Like Plenty
Posted by Dominic Holden on Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 9:39 AM
This video out of the UK makes the case that cities and towns should implement a blanket 20 mile-per-hour speed limit:
Over at Livin' in the Bike Lane, where this video comes from, they note that slowing down traffic "reduces the number of accidents, injuries and deaths... [and] revitalizes the neighborhood by encouraging more people to walk and bike." I'm all for bicycles and great streetscapes, but traveling 20 miles per hour in a car feels slower than doing the backstroke through cold honey.
3
20 on residential streets IS plenty. the morons are those who think 40mph on narrow car-lined streets is acceptable. if you are on a residential street, then there's no point in hurrying. getting somewhere a few minutes faster is useless and more dangerous.
4
If 20 mph feels too slow on an arterial, let's compromise: 25 mph on the arterials and 15 mph on all side streets lacking a yellow centerline.
You can still drive as fast as you can manage on I-5, I don't care.
You can still drive as fast as you can manage on I-5, I don't care.
6
HOLY CRAP.....they are all kinds of confused there:
from the internetz:
"We use miles and yards for distance on all road signs, feet and inches for height of bridges etc. Litres is relatively new for fuel, it used to be UK gallons up until the mid nineties. I guess they changed as it confused folk and they could hike the price up without anyone noticing. Fuel consumption is in miles per gallon though, and not miles per litre. Farhenhiet is used in hopsitals for body temp, generally celcuis is used for weather but most folk still use F and the conversion is ususally given. Pints (1/8 of a UK gallon or 20 ounces) are used for draught beers and milk. The EU have forced the use of pounds and ounces for groceries to be illegla but both prices are usually given and people think in pounds. Body weight is in stone, pounds and ounces (st lb oz), coal and heavy bags of potatoes often sold by or fractions of hundredweight (cwt) which is 8 stone or 112lbs. The railways systems use an antiquated system of miles and chains, with a chain being 1/80th of a mile or 22yards or 66ft. Bridges on the railways are marked m & ch. The country generally still uses much of the customery units and its what the populous prefer using. Our money is metric but prior to 1971 the pound sterling was split into 20 shillings each made up of 12 pence. i.e. 1£ = 20s = 240d with 'd' being used to represent penny (comes from the Roman Denarius) "
from the internetz:
"We use miles and yards for distance on all road signs, feet and inches for height of bridges etc. Litres is relatively new for fuel, it used to be UK gallons up until the mid nineties. I guess they changed as it confused folk and they could hike the price up without anyone noticing. Fuel consumption is in miles per gallon though, and not miles per litre. Farhenhiet is used in hopsitals for body temp, generally celcuis is used for weather but most folk still use F and the conversion is ususally given. Pints (1/8 of a UK gallon or 20 ounces) are used for draught beers and milk. The EU have forced the use of pounds and ounces for groceries to be illegla but both prices are usually given and people think in pounds. Body weight is in stone, pounds and ounces (st lb oz), coal and heavy bags of potatoes often sold by or fractions of hundredweight (cwt) which is 8 stone or 112lbs. The railways systems use an antiquated system of miles and chains, with a chain being 1/80th of a mile or 22yards or 66ft. Bridges on the railways are marked m & ch. The country generally still uses much of the customery units and its what the populous prefer using. Our money is metric but prior to 1971 the pound sterling was split into 20 shillings each made up of 12 pence. i.e. 1£ = 20s = 240d with 'd' being used to represent penny (comes from the Roman Denarius) "
7
The slower you drive, the more time you have for texting; also the less damage you do when you drive into a building. Win/win.
8
I love the 1-lane roads in some of Seattle's neighborhoods because of how amazingly slow cars go. I live on one myself and don't mind the 5 to 10 mph maximum I can drive there - it's only a few blocks to an arterial. But there's little car noise, I feel safe biking or even rollerblading on the streets, and if my son or one of my dogs ever gets free at the wrong moment there's far less chance of them dying.
9
@3:
Exactly. Drivers use my narrow residential street as a short-cut to avoid stopping at the signal on 23rd & E. Union. And because they're always in a hurry, and NEED to shave 30 seconds off their travel, they accelerate up to 35 or 40 mph down a double-length block that is essentially one narrow lane with cars parked on either side. Thus, we have the option to either: park on the planting strip and risk a ticket, or, park fully in the street and risk being swiped; both of which I've been on the receiving end of since moving into the neighborhood.
I've talked with several of my neighbors about trying to get the city to install speed bumps or berms, but the process is apparently somewhat onerous, and involves several months of tracking and recording vehicular speeds, setting up speed posts, etc. before the City will even consider it. Basically, it's probably going to take someone getting seriously injured or killed by a speeding driver before anything gets done.
Exactly. Drivers use my narrow residential street as a short-cut to avoid stopping at the signal on 23rd & E. Union. And because they're always in a hurry, and NEED to shave 30 seconds off their travel, they accelerate up to 35 or 40 mph down a double-length block that is essentially one narrow lane with cars parked on either side. Thus, we have the option to either: park on the planting strip and risk a ticket, or, park fully in the street and risk being swiped; both of which I've been on the receiving end of since moving into the neighborhood.
I've talked with several of my neighbors about trying to get the city to install speed bumps or berms, but the process is apparently somewhat onerous, and involves several months of tracking and recording vehicular speeds, setting up speed posts, etc. before the City will even consider it. Basically, it's probably going to take someone getting seriously injured or killed by a speeding driver before anything gets done.
10
It is stuff like this that American libertarians use as examples of how European governments place excessive burdens on the people.
Here's an idea: If you are driving on a residential street, make looking for pedestrians, animals, and cars pulling out of driveways and oncoming intersections a priority! If you are paying attention to that, you won't be speeding (even if you are).
If you are walking in these neighborhoods, pay attention as well!
If you are an animal, you lack the intellectual capacity to read this or even comprehend these concepts. Guess you'll have to rely on your instincts.
I live on a residential street, with kids, cats, drunks, light industrial businesses, and intersections that lack stop signs, drivers that don't have a clue how to drive safely or politely without signs telling them what to do, and have seen surprisingly few accidents in 7 years. A few car collisions, and I saw a cat (that the driver had no chance to see) get run over.
Somethimes I just wish we could let things be, and deal with life as it is.
Here's an idea: If you are driving on a residential street, make looking for pedestrians, animals, and cars pulling out of driveways and oncoming intersections a priority! If you are paying attention to that, you won't be speeding (even if you are).
If you are walking in these neighborhoods, pay attention as well!
If you are an animal, you lack the intellectual capacity to read this or even comprehend these concepts. Guess you'll have to rely on your instincts.
I live on a residential street, with kids, cats, drunks, light industrial businesses, and intersections that lack stop signs, drivers that don't have a clue how to drive safely or politely without signs telling them what to do, and have seen surprisingly few accidents in 7 years. A few car collisions, and I saw a cat (that the driver had no chance to see) get run over.
Somethimes I just wish we could let things be, and deal with life as it is.
11
@10 Surprisingly few!
What you need is a 10ft safety fence on both sides of the street! If it saves even one life, It's Worth It!
What you need is a 10ft safety fence on both sides of the street! If it saves even one life, It's Worth It!
12
20mph on a cramped residential street is actually more than enough. I've been known to regularly drive 20-25mph on Bellevue Ave E. It's cramped, has low visibility at corners and plenty of pedestrians.
13
@Andy If you think that's a bitch, try dealing with the UK Border Agency, or one of their stupid ass banks. Also does no one in the UK know how to build a damn website?
15
That wouldn't work here in Canada, as it's hard to keep the huskies pulling the sled at the same speed all the time. They always put on this burst of speed when you yell at them, and then slow down.
16
I rarely exceed 20 mph on residential streets, especially if SDOT, in its wisdom, hasn't placed any stop signs or roundabouts at blind intersections. Driving on Queen Anne is always a joy.
17
@13 I gotta see these websites....I love laughing at poorly made web page
@16 that was one of the first things that blew my mind about seattle when I moved here....so many random unmarked intersections.....how the heck do the police deal with a collision in those circumstances? How do Seattle driving schools teach students to approach these intersections? I'm honestly interested to know.
@16 that was one of the first things that blew my mind about seattle when I moved here....so many random unmarked intersections.....how the heck do the police deal with a collision in those circumstances? How do Seattle driving schools teach students to approach these intersections? I'm honestly interested to know.
19
I'd be happy to have existing speed limits enforced. I think the time has come that every new car have a gps so that if that car exceeds the speed limit a cellular contact is made and the owner is mailed a ticket just like from a red light camera. Then speed limits could be reviewed and raised where appropriate.
22
Are we really going to build West Side LR that will consume a car lane to travel at 20?
RapidRide bus service?
I think the time has come for bikes to go faster or get the fuck out of the way... Of the train/trolley/streetcar/auto.
RapidRide bus service?
I think the time has come for bikes to go faster or get the fuck out of the way... Of the train/trolley/streetcar/auto.
23
Get out of your damned car! Walk or bike. Don't be lazy. The time you save by going 30 MPH vs. 20 MPH to get to your destination is a trivial amount.
26
@17:
It's pretty simple: when two or more vehicles are approaching an unmarked intersection at the same time, the car on the left must yield to the car on its immediate right, and so on. I imagine the only difficulty would arise on those extremely rare occasions when four vehicles are all approaching an unmarked intersection at the same time, but in 25 years of driving around this town, I can't recall a single instance of this ever happening to me personally.
That being said, many people new to Seattle apparently are not aware of this rule, hence the problem of vehicles stopping at unmarked intersections for inordinately long periods of time while everyone tries to figure out who has the right-of-way. This phenomenon is invariably blamed on "shitty Seattle drivers", despite the fact that, in most cases NONE of the "shitty drivers" are actually FROM Seattle.
It's pretty simple: when two or more vehicles are approaching an unmarked intersection at the same time, the car on the left must yield to the car on its immediate right, and so on. I imagine the only difficulty would arise on those extremely rare occasions when four vehicles are all approaching an unmarked intersection at the same time, but in 25 years of driving around this town, I can't recall a single instance of this ever happening to me personally.
That being said, many people new to Seattle apparently are not aware of this rule, hence the problem of vehicles stopping at unmarked intersections for inordinately long periods of time while everyone tries to figure out who has the right-of-way. This phenomenon is invariably blamed on "shitty Seattle drivers", despite the fact that, in most cases NONE of the "shitty drivers" are actually FROM Seattle.
27
#17 unmarked intersections aren't random, they're... unmarked. Any intersection involving an arterial should be marked. What are these "random" unmarked intersections you're referring to?
If I remember correctly, driving schools teach you to lower your speed as you approach the intersection (according to visibility), be ready to brake, and watch for traffic. Normal right of way rules apply (turners yield, yield to cars on your right).
If I remember correctly, driving schools teach you to lower your speed as you approach the intersection (according to visibility), be ready to brake, and watch for traffic. Normal right of way rules apply (turners yield, yield to cars on your right).
28
I guess "turners yield" isn't entirely accurate. I think someone going straight but to the left of a turner would yield to the turner, but a turner would yield to an oncoming car traveling straight. At least I think that's how it works.
Unmarked intersections and the procedures surrounding them are not unique to Seattle, and I highly doubt they are unique to Washington state. Are you saying that where you're from, #17, intersection was marked?
Unmarked intersections and the procedures surrounding them are not unique to Seattle, and I highly doubt they are unique to Washington state. Are you saying that where you're from, #17, intersection was marked?
30
@26 & 27
Yeah, I can't recall ever hearing that rule, but glad I know now, Thanks.
Where I grew up (NY State) there were absolutely no unmarked intersections so I must have immediately forgotten the "yield to cars on your right" rule apparently taught in drivers education classes (or perhaps they never taught it). Similar situation with roundabouts until I moved to a town that had 2-3 of them then I had to re-learn the rules for that type of intersection too.
Yeah, I can't recall ever hearing that rule, but glad I know now, Thanks.
Where I grew up (NY State) there were absolutely no unmarked intersections so I must have immediately forgotten the "yield to cars on your right" rule apparently taught in drivers education classes (or perhaps they never taught it). Similar situation with roundabouts until I moved to a town that had 2-3 of them then I had to re-learn the rules for that type of intersection too.
31
@19, and after that cars need to have remote control webcams inside that alert me when somebody has a boner.
32
so wait, if you reach an intersection first.....does the rule of first-come-first-go trump the "yield to cars on your right" rule? As you do in a 4-way stop?
33
@19, really? Like humanity is over-automated enough as it is? Please don't breed, vote, or run for office.
34
Andy, yes, I believe the 4-way stop rules apply to the unmarked intersections. But this is Seattle, so there is an unwritten rule that each driver must insist that the other go first until someone gives in. All drivers will insist that a bike go first, even if they have the right of way!
35
Driving fast in the city rarely gets you anywhere faster, because there are things called signalized intersections all over the god damned place.
36
However a good takeoff from the light helps more cars behind you get through the same light. God I hate those people who don't know how to hit the gas when the light turns green, but I forgive those who don't have vehicles capeable of that.
37
@25- I kid you not.
@31- Some kind of penis clamp would be needed as the web cam would be blocked by pants. Not sure what you'd do with the info.
@33- Too late already had kids but I've been sterilized since so you should be happy. Driving the car won't be automated just the police job of issuing tickets.
Driver's don't hate bicycles- they hate anything that makes them drive the speed limit. Drive your car rigidily following the speed limit and watch how the people react. Putting a stop to that would make everyone safer, save gas, allow police to do something more worthwhile (or be layed off.)
I expected privacy compaints but since a cameras could be set up to read your plates that boats already left.
@31- Some kind of penis clamp would be needed as the web cam would be blocked by pants. Not sure what you'd do with the info.
@33- Too late already had kids but I've been sterilized since so you should be happy. Driving the car won't be automated just the police job of issuing tickets.
Driver's don't hate bicycles- they hate anything that makes them drive the speed limit. Drive your car rigidily following the speed limit and watch how the people react. Putting a stop to that would make everyone safer, save gas, allow police to do something more worthwhile (or be layed off.)
I expected privacy compaints but since a cameras could be set up to read your plates that boats already left.
38
Mike, OK, technically driving would not be automated, but what you are advocating is way to fucking close. I don't think this is the solution to making everyone safer. Better drivers education (everyone should have to take drivers training courses, not just those under 18), better public transit, and better bicling options would make us all safer. Oh, and if pedestrians would look up from their crackberrys and iphones often enough to see where they are walking, that would make us all safer too. No matter the speed, I for one am not a safer driver when "driving rigidly".
39
You'd have to be relatively near a safe pull-off area, Gus, as you never know how long those things are going to last.
41
@30: Also from NY, but had never seen an unmarked intersection before Seattle. Had anyone from anywhere else seen them before? The NYS driver's manual includes instructions for "uncontrolled intersections" but none of my family has ever seen one either.
But from what @27-@28 said: It seems like this get confusing for natives as well?
Apropos of little: This last trip home has reminded me why jaywalking is so much easier in NYC. NO RIGHT ON RED. It makes things a little more predictable, even though as a driver I hate it.
But from what @27-@28 said: It seems like this get confusing for natives as well?
Apropos of little: This last trip home has reminded me why jaywalking is so much easier in NYC. NO RIGHT ON RED. It makes things a little more predictable, even though as a driver I hate it.
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