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News & ArtsTuesday, August 31, 2010
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: Predator and Prey
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 2:00 PM
A few nights ago I got drunk and knocked on my roommate's door and confessed my attraction to him while he was lying in bed in nothing more than his skivvies. (It was dark and I stayed at the door so I didn't know that until after the fact.) And then I asked him if I could sleep in his room because our other roommate—whose bedroom is directly above mine—was having sex so loudly that I couldn't sleep. Which was true but it clearly didn't not make the roommate I was drunkenly confessing to's bed the appropriate alternative and makes me an asshole to the roommate who actually has a sex life. Not being able to sleep on work nights is sometimes a real problem, but one to be addressed with her, not used as drunken fodder to get into someone else's bed.I feel pathetic and embarrassed for having thrown myself at my roommate, completely freaked out that I got wasted enough to do something I have daydreamed about but wouldn't do sober, but much more importantly, I think my behavior did not reflect active consent, trashed my roommate's boundaries and was generally creepy—all characteristics of sexual assaulters.
I am biologically female and if the situation were reversed I would commit a huge double standard because I would back any woman who did not feel safe continuing to live with a dude who did what I did. I feel like I should be held accountable and move out immediately though my housemate has told me he doesn't feel threatened and that I should stay.
Help. I feel like a total piece of shit for having done this and can't stop wondering,
Am I A Sexual Predator?
My response after the jump...
•••••••••••••
Calm the fuck down.
You didn't assault anyone, you're not a predator, you shouldn't have to move out. You made a drunken, ill-advised pass at a roommate. If that makes someone a "sexual predator," AIASP, then we're going to need to build walls around college campuses and declare 'em all penitentiaries.
As for that double standard: in light of your recent experience—you made a drunken pass at someone—you might want to revisit the assumptions you've made about men who make passes, drunken and otherwise, at women who aren't interested in them. Making a pass at someone is not grounds for eviction or conviction. It's how a person makes a pass—did you pounce or did you ask?—and how a person react if the pass is rebuffed—did you graciously take "no" for an answer or were you a complete asshole about it?—that matters.
Of course the passes that men make at women—roommates and otherwise—exist in a context of male sexual violence. So it's understandable that a woman might feel uncomfortable living with a dude who did what you did. But if the dude wasn't a creep about it, and graciously took "no" for an answer (if the answer was "no"), gee, perhaps he should be judged as an individual and not as someone who bears collective guilt for all the crimes committed by members of his sex.
And even if you were an asshole about that "no," AIASP, that still doesn't make you a sexual predator. You're only a sexual predator—or guilty of sexual assault—if you refuse to take "no" for an answer and force yourself on someone. (Or if you go after people who are incapable of granting their consent or take advantage of people under duress. And even then not all "predation" qualifies as assault. Some people are liars and players and manipulative fucks.) You didn't force yourself on anymore. All you're guilty of, AIASP, is asking someone that you wanted to fuck if he wanted to fuck you. It's a legit question and no one gets fucked without asking it.
And the question doesn't magically become assault when the answer is "no."
1
haha. so true. like the "calm the fuck down."
This girl is seriously misguided about what is and what isn't sexual coercion/violence.
This girl is seriously misguided about what is and what isn't sexual coercion/violence.
6
It doesn't change the logic of the answer, but the LW saying "I am biologically female" is somewhat confusing--is LW a gay trans man? Otherwise why not just start by saying "I'm a woman who got drunk and knocked on my roommate's door and confessed my attraction to him," etc. Is male roommate gay? Anyway, roommate is cool. Someday maybe we'll all be able to express polite sexual interest as adults in whatever combination, and be politely accepted or declined without further drama, freakouts, or violence. Though I suppose a trans person would not use the term "biological" to describe genetics or present anatomy but rather heartfelt identity. I know... maybe Telsa can help.
9
Well what do you know! A woman who lumps all men into the sexual predator catagory finds herself the victim of her own ill advised assumptions. I love it! Good answer Dan.
10
People who ask themselves if they're sexual predators obviously have not spent any time with actual sexual predators. If all sexual predators were as conscientious as you, AIASP, the world would be a much better place.
12
@6 I'm guessing her phrasing is a symptom of the general over intellectualization she's submitted the entire chain of events too.
13
Seriously? AISP, you are why I didn't join any of the feminist groups in college. Really? If your drunk male roommate came to your door and asked to get into bed and then went away when you said no, you'd feel ... unsafe? I hope to hell you ain't that fragile, otherwise the world's gonna throw you some real curveballs when you leave the higher education incubator.
Lighten up. Chill out. You got turned down. Don't make a bigger deal out of it than it is.
Lighten up. Chill out. You got turned down. Don't make a bigger deal out of it than it is.
15
Come on people, the ethics of this situation couldn't be any clearer.
If the guy is attracted to her, then her pass was cool. Otherwise, it was sexual harassment, possibly sexual assault if she didn't slink away quickly enough when he said no.
If the guy is attracted to her, then her pass was cool. Otherwise, it was sexual harassment, possibly sexual assault if she didn't slink away quickly enough when he said no.
16
Eh, just like not all men are not sexual predators, not all feminists are hysterical weirdos like this writer. There's no need for feminist-bashing based on the crazy comments of this one individual.
18
Oh good, I'm glad I'm not the only one here who thought, even if the situation was reversed, and she was a he and he a she, there wouldn't be a problem.
Actually, @13, it's the feminist in me that make me think that it shouldn't be a problem no matter what the genders. What's fair is fair. But maybe feminist groups are not where the typical feminist is? I don't know, having never been in one.
Actually, @13, it's the feminist in me that make me think that it shouldn't be a problem no matter what the genders. What's fair is fair. But maybe feminist groups are not where the typical feminist is? I don't know, having never been in one.
20
So I recently realized that I have never asked anyone out (just responded to others advances), because I am rather afraid of rejection, thus rejecting myself before the other has a chance, you know the story. So these lines...
'All you're guilty of, AIASP, is asking someone that you wanted to fuck if he wanted to fuck you. It's a legit question and no one gets fucked without asking it.
And the question doesn't magically become assault when the answer is "no."'
... are incredibly helpful and amazingly reassuring. Thanks for putting it in perspective Dan!
'All you're guilty of, AIASP, is asking someone that you wanted to fuck if he wanted to fuck you. It's a legit question and no one gets fucked without asking it.
And the question doesn't magically become assault when the answer is "no."'
... are incredibly helpful and amazingly reassuring. Thanks for putting it in perspective Dan!
21
AISP, the fact that you're experiencing remorse & embarrassment says "probably not a predator" to me. However, you probably shouldn't oughta drink *that* heavily on a work night.
22
@14. Probably because everything she's said is so clearly influenced by Women and Gender Studies classes.
23
@15 Ummm... Harassment occurs when the power dynamics are uneven or the situation is totally inappropriate. Like, in the workplace. Or if one party is rejected and persists in pursuit to the extreme annoyance of the other. Asking someone once, in an appropriate social setting (like shared residential premises), and promptly acquiescing to rejection, is hardly harassment. It may, however, be supremely awkward unless handled in good nature afterwards.
24
See! SEE! *This* sort of sad, slobbering, jibbering sea mollusk of a young woman is what you get from smoking too much reefer...er, no, actually, taking too many acid blots...nope, not that either.
Oh, she is into gender studies? Well, there you go folks, this is your brain on Catherine MacKinnon.
Oh, she is into gender studies? Well, there you go folks, this is your brain on Catherine MacKinnon.
25
@6 That's what I thought... What's the deal with the 'biologically female' comment? Trans person or ultra feminist?
Otherwise, yeah. You sound a little sheltered and that you over-think things, AIASP.
Otherwise, yeah. You sound a little sheltered and that you over-think things, AIASP.
26
@23: Ummm, yeah, thanks. Might I suggest sprinkling my comment with a generous helping of irony and reading it again?
27
Shit, after all these years I still don't know if it is possible for a woman to sexually assault (rape) a man unless the act involves a foreign object or results in some kind of serious physical damage. How can anything else be even remotely compared to sexual assaults on women by male perpetrators?
And when I say a man, I mean over the age of say fourteen.
From the roommate's perspective the young woman is humorously naive.
And when I say a man, I mean over the age of say fourteen.
From the roommate's perspective the young woman is humorously naive.
28
This is kind of random, but the title of this letter is also the title of one of my favorite porn wrestling stories. Obviously NSFW, and contains violence, although it's not anything bizarre (not that I don't enjoy some more over-the-top ones!). It's actually pretty well-written.
http://www.seakingsfemfight.com/stories/…
http://www.seakingsfemfight.com/stories/…
29
The lack of detail on the roommate's response screws this entire letter - it makes a huge difference to me, and changes the context completely. Since we get the little comment that he "doesn't feel threatened and that I should stay" I must conclude with others that she is hysterical and depressed and embarassed that he did not accept her advances, and she wants to use some kind of excuse to slink away: "Please label me a horrible person, so I can leave honorably for your own good". Bull shit - grow up.
30
Indeed, making a pass is not sexual assault.
Not only is it the case that our culture's ambivalent attitude to sex ('it's good but it's bad', 'it's healthy but it's shameful', etc.) leads to this overthinking; but current attitudes about male sexual violence and its importance and/or possible prevention add to this overthinking.
Sex ought to be simple. Do you want it? No? OK, cool. Yes? OH YES!
In our cultural climate, this is not simple. Despite the heroic efforts of people like Dan, this keeps not being simple. And there is no big reason for this lack of simplicity, other than traditional stereotypes, fears, and confusions.
Why can't we make it simple? What's the problem? What keeps us from jumping into simple mode when it comes to sex?
Not only is it the case that our culture's ambivalent attitude to sex ('it's good but it's bad', 'it's healthy but it's shameful', etc.) leads to this overthinking; but current attitudes about male sexual violence and its importance and/or possible prevention add to this overthinking.
Sex ought to be simple. Do you want it? No? OK, cool. Yes? OH YES!
In our cultural climate, this is not simple. Despite the heroic efforts of people like Dan, this keeps not being simple. And there is no big reason for this lack of simplicity, other than traditional stereotypes, fears, and confusions.
Why can't we make it simple? What's the problem? What keeps us from jumping into simple mode when it comes to sex?
31
Er... it's sexual assault when the person you are pursuing is the one who is too drunk to say "No." It isn't assault when you, the pursuer, are the one who is too drunk to say "Yes."
I'm guessing that Roomie was in control of his faculties. You don't say whether he sent you away, or let you come in and drunkenly slobber all over him, but in either case he did what he wanted to do. Provided that you didn't physically hold his sober ass down and force yourself on him, anything that he did, he consented to do. If he consented, then it wasn't predation. Seriously, duh. Hell, he is probably more disappointed that you disavowed the whole thing the following morning.
You seem to be squicked by the "active consent" thing. (And yes, I'd say you've been hoist on your own Womyn's Studies petard, in that you now have firsthand experience of being drunk enough to do something that you regret the following morning, but you don't get to wriggle out of your own responsibility by claiming to be too drunk to "consent" to your own bad ideas. ) Why are you worrying about whether you consented? If you have daydreamed about doing this while sober, I'd say your drunkenness wasn't a factor in your consent, merely in your being daring enough to go for it. My question is, why would you never dare to do it while sober?
I'm guessing that Roomie was in control of his faculties. You don't say whether he sent you away, or let you come in and drunkenly slobber all over him, but in either case he did what he wanted to do. Provided that you didn't physically hold his sober ass down and force yourself on him, anything that he did, he consented to do. If he consented, then it wasn't predation. Seriously, duh. Hell, he is probably more disappointed that you disavowed the whole thing the following morning.
You seem to be squicked by the "active consent" thing. (And yes, I'd say you've been hoist on your own Womyn's Studies petard, in that you now have firsthand experience of being drunk enough to do something that you regret the following morning, but you don't get to wriggle out of your own responsibility by claiming to be too drunk to "consent" to your own bad ideas. ) Why are you worrying about whether you consented? If you have daydreamed about doing this while sober, I'd say your drunkenness wasn't a factor in your consent, merely in your being daring enough to go for it. My question is, why would you never dare to do it while sober?
32
@27: Ever see "40 Days and 40 Nights"? The movie about the college guy who gives up sex for Lent? Spoiler warning - On the last day, he's drugged or sleep-deprived or something, and ends up tied to a bed, and his ex-girlfriend comes in and rides him until he climaxes. He's semi-conscious at the time, and thinks he is having sex with his new girlfriend. Then he spends the last few minutes of the movie apologizing to new girlfriend for betraying her. Granted, this is a slightly unlikely scenario. My point, however, is that it could be possible to perform actions that would cause a restrained or incapacitated male's body to respond against his will. Hell, slip a roofie and a Viagra into his drink at a bar. Would you qualify that as rape?
33
There are ALL SORTS of details left out of this. For example: How did you later find out that he was in his skivvies? Are you a tranny or just from Olympia? How did he react to your confession of lurrrrve? How did he react to your query about sleeping in his room? WHERE DID YOU ACTUALLY SLEEP? How did the follow-up conversation go? Were you sober when that happened? Did he seem skeeved out? Did he laugh out loud when you asked him if you should move?
You are either a horrible storyteller, or you totally phrased this entire scenario in such a way as to make you less/more of a bad guy then you actually are, OR you overreact to every single thing that has ever happened in your life and your friends are done listening so you turned to Dan Savage.
You are either a horrible storyteller, or you totally phrased this entire scenario in such a way as to make you less/more of a bad guy then you actually are, OR you overreact to every single thing that has ever happened in your life and your friends are done listening so you turned to Dan Savage.
34
@32, yeah, your body can respond even when you don't want it to. One thing that isn't well publicized is that women come during rapes (though it's hard to say if it's most or not). That -- in addition to the physical violence, risk of disease, mistreatment, etc -- is why it's such a mindfuck: you didn't want to but even your own body wouldn't do what you wanted to.
35
RE: the 'men can't get raped' thing: what, is the world filled with attractive, disease-free women? Straight guys, imagine yourself getting drugged, tied up, whacked off, and then fucked by some woman who's totally gross looking and has, I dunno, sores or something. After enough manual stimulation, you would likely get hard, no matter how grossed out or creeped out you were. And if you didn't, there's always your ass. Are you telling me you wouldn't be messed up after that experience? Sheesh, you people have no imagination!
36
Oh for fuck's sweet sake, let's not turn this into the interminable "is this rape?" discussion about consent, gender reversals, blah blah blah.
Yeah, I know: but not *this" letter.
She didn't rape anyone. It sounds like she didn't get through the doorway.
Can we please save the "what constitutes rape" discussion for a letter that warrants it?
Yeah, I know: but not *this" letter.
She didn't rape anyone. It sounds like she didn't get through the doorway.
Can we please save the "what constitutes rape" discussion for a letter that warrants it?
37
@35 "Sheesh, you people have no imagination!"
Yes, and until 7:18 PM on Aug 31, 2010, that in fact served me very well.
Yes, and until 7:18 PM on Aug 31, 2010, that in fact served me very well.
38
Dude i totally hate man-hating pseudo-scientific sex-scared intolerent feminists. nowadays all us super cool gender equality sex positive trans friendly scientific types get lumped in with those jerks, and women who admittedly agree that they should be allowed to vote deny they're feminists to avoid the label of idiot "reverse" bigot. and girls like this get some really dumb ideas in their head listening to those outdated ideas, thinking that's "feminism". it sucks. Maybe we should get a new word?
41
@15, If she didn't take no for an answer and stayed in the doorway drunkenly saying "pretty please", I'd say that was closer to annoyance than harrassment.
42
@38: Ugh, right? I really want to stick to the word and just try and change it, but it's so bogged down. "Gender equalist" sounds idiotic though.
43
Why did we assume these people are in college?
Because if they aren't, or they aren't at least 18-22, then God help us all.
But for advice: Seriously, with the calm the fuck down. But also, if you want to feel better, tell your roommate that you feel like a shit for doing what you did. Don't make a big deal about it, because I guarantee that's going to make him more uncomfortable. But mention it casually without an expectation of him saying anything and you'll go a long way towards better communal living.
Because if they aren't, or they aren't at least 18-22, then God help us all.
But for advice: Seriously, with the calm the fuck down. But also, if you want to feel better, tell your roommate that you feel like a shit for doing what you did. Don't make a big deal about it, because I guarantee that's going to make him more uncomfortable. But mention it casually without an expectation of him saying anything and you'll go a long way towards better communal living.
44
In response to responses to me:) Feminist groups at my college in the 90s tended to interpret any unwanted advance as a sign of male aggression or sexual harassment. It was a bit ridiculous. I didn't think this represented feminism at all. I kind of assumed the LW was a college student based on the flashback caused by this letter...
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