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Friday, August 6, 2010

What Happens Next with Prop 8? A Conversation With Jon Davidson, the Legal Director of Lambda Legal

Posted by on Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 9:25 AM

Posted last night and moved up, with a flow chart created by Slog reader Barry that outlines some of the scenarios for Prop 8.

CLICK TO ENLARGE: A few scenarios for what may happen to Prop 8 (Please note, its not encompassing every possible path for the lawsuit--like if the 9th Circuit flatly rejects the lower courts ruling--just the most likely outcomes.
  • Barry Pump
  • CLICK TO ENLARGE: A few possible outcomes for Prop 8 (Please note, this doesn't encompass every possible path for the lawsuit—just the most likely scenarios.

This morning on Twitter, superstar Slog commenter Joe Szilagyi asked this question: “So what happens if the 9th [U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals] affirms the decision to toss Prop 8, but the Supremes decline to take it up?” After I retweeted the question, local politico Anne Martens replied, “Then the ruling of unconstitutional stands.”

Well, news broke a couple hours later that the the case was appealed to the 9th Circuit, thereby elevating the question of Prop 8’s future—and rights of same-sex partners—to the nation’s penultimate strata of justice (and drawing a path to possibly reach the Supreme Court). So indeed, what could happen now that Prop 8 has been declared unconstitutional by one federal court and two more courts have a stab at it?

I posed that question this afternoon to Jon Davidson, legal director of Lambda Legal, which has filed an amicus brief in the case and stands as one of the county’s strongest litigators on LGBT rights.

What the 9th Circuit Could Do:

Generally speaking, Davidson says, “If the 9th Circuit upholds the outcome, then Prop 8 would be struck down and same-sex couples could marry again in California, and the voters of California could not do anything about that in the future.”

In a more specific outcome—if the court rules using precisely the same reasoning as yesterday’s ruling from Justice Walker—Davidson continues, “then same sex couples would be allowed to marry in all nine states in the 9th Circuit, including Washington…. But the ruling would be only binding in the 9th circuit.”

That would be the best possible outcome for the gays (both in terms of more people getting marriage rights and also because Walker’s ruling was definitive in finding Prop 8 unconstitutional while debunking anti-gay myths). But it’s unlikely, Davidson says, because the 9th Circuit could be inclined to avoid a ruling that legalizes gay marriage in all nine states.

“They might say that we don’t have to decide if same-sex couples have a fundamental right to marry, and we don’t have to decide if it denies equal protection to deny them the right to marry in general,” Davidson explains. Instead the court could push for a more nuanced distinction between states based on their existing laws: “In a state like California, where the couples are given all the rights of marriage through domestic partnership, there is not a legitimate state reason to deny them the status and name of marriage,” he says. “They could say the only reason they are being denied that status and name is to single them out as different and unworthy of marriage—and the state cannot do that. But they would not decide whether or not a state might be required to allow same-sex marriage.”

“Depending on how narrow they rule, it could apply to just California, where there are 18,000 same-sex couples who are currently married," Davidson continues. "Or it could cover California, Oregon, Washington, and Nevada—which are states that [already] provide comprehensive partnership rights.”

In other words, it’s more likely the 9th Circuit court may decide that states can’t allow an unconstitutional separate-but-unequal distinction between domestic partnerships and marriage.

That sort of narrow ruling would create a couple potential advantages for the Supreme Court.

If the Supreme Court Refuses to Hear the Case:

This narrow ruling from the 9th Circuit sidesteps the big scary question of legalizing gay marriage, so the court could—to answer as Joe's questions gets to—let it stand. “Depending on how they rule, the Supreme Court might be less interested in hearing the case," Davidson says. "In a ruling that just concerns California only, where the couples can already get the legal rights of marriage, it raises a less broad issue.”

So if the Supreme Court refuses to take it, Washington could be in a very good position to benefit from legal gay marriage because we already have a compressive domestic-partnership program on the books.

After the jump: What could happen if the Supremes take the case.

The Supreme Court may have another reason to refuse to hear the case—at least initially.

Davidson notes that “there are two other cases headed to the Supreme Court that were decided last month in Massachusetts [where gay marriage is legal]… that said the federal government can’t decide that some marriages will be honored but not others.” The outcome of those cases could affect whether the feds must recognize other state rulings and laws that permit gay marriage. The Supreme Court may then get the Prop 8 case and, rather than take it, “send it back to lower court to reconsider it in light of what we have said” about the cases arising from Massachusetts.

But the 9th Circuit phase is about much more than the nine states and the gays who live there.

“I think the main issue at the 9th Circuit is not just who wins, but what is their reasoning," Davidson says. In yesterday's ruling, Walker laid out the facts of the case strongly, definitively answering questions about about gay people and gay parents. For instance, he smacked down myths that gay parents are inferior or that their children are more likely to be gay. "In a lot of prior marriage cases, appellate judges reached a conclusion by saying common sense tells us things or by saying that we don’t know the answers to certain things. Judges have said there no evidence about whether it homosexuality is immutable or not. Here we cannot say that.”

If the Supreme Court Does Take the Case:

In this last scenario, the Supreme Court agrees take the case. This could either result in taking a broad ruling from the 9th Circuit and upholding it outright—essentially amplifying the decision to make gay marriage legal in all 50 states—or shutting down the debate completely. Or the court could take a narrow ruling from the 9th Circuit and maintain it. Perhaps most likely is that the Supreme Court takes the case and expands rights for LGBT people in certain states with some gay-partnership laws on the books, while it avoids issuing a lightning-rod decision that mandates all of the states allow same-sex marriage.

“What is most likely to be upheld by the Supreme Court is a narrow ruling," Davidson says. "Even Justice Ginsburg, who is considered a liberal, she was critical of the decision of Roe v. Wade because she said that was moving too quickly. While there was intense political debate on reproductive freedom, the decision that halted anti-abortion laws in all the states led to a backlash and years of litigation chipping away at the right. So if they can move more incrementally, I think they are more willing, as a general statement, to do something that way. But obviously it would be better for lesbians and gay men if they could get marriage... and we would support that, but the tough issue is that whether the Supreme Court going to do that or would it more likely to do something more modest."

There is also a question about whether the Supreme Court would distinguish homosexuality as a "status" or "conduct"—the former being inherent to someone's identity and civil rights. Davidson says it's a non-issue since Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg ruled in a recent case related to gay rights, "Our decisions have declined to distinguish between status and conduct in this context." Says Davidson, "Declined to distinguish means we treat them the same way." Having settled that questions could be a boon to gay-rights advocates if the case ever reaches the high court.

Regardless, any decision will be a long time coming. The 9th Circuit isn’t bound by any timeline, and Davidson says a ruling in three years may realistic. Even then, either side could appeal from the three-judge panel to an 11-member en banc hearing, remaining in the San Francisco-based court. And only after that concludes, may we finally begin the slow process of hearing the case in D.C.

 

Comments (33) RSS

Oldest First Unregistered On Registered On Add a comment
yourmom.com 1
My god man, use a jump.
Posted by yourmom.com on August 5, 2010 at 4:33 PM
Dominic Holden 2
@1) Thanks. I did jump it right after I posted.
Posted by Dominic Holden on August 5, 2010 at 4:35 PM
gloomy gus 3
You should put that missing "y" back in Superstar Joe's name, lest you get a Magyar beat down.
Posted by gloomy gus on August 5, 2010 at 4:36 PM
Dominic Holden 4
There's already one "y." He doesn't have two "y"s in his name, does he?
Posted by Dominic Holden on August 5, 2010 at 4:38 PM
gloomy gus 5
Fakeout! No "y" at first I swear I swear. Your use of Word must've been to blame.
Posted by gloomy gus on August 5, 2010 at 4:40 PM
Joe Szilagyi 6
Oh snap. Someone went all Magyar in the hiz-ház.
Posted by Joe Szilagyi http://www.joeszilagyi.com on August 5, 2010 at 5:00 PM
Will in Seattle 7
Couldn't the Supremes decide that the 9th Circuit is too big to be manageable and force Congress to break CA into 5 states, OR into 2 states, and WA into 3 states (Lincoln, Washington, and Seattle)?

Thereby breaking the Senate logjam?
Posted by Will in Seattle http://www.facebook.com/WillSeattle on August 5, 2010 at 5:03 PM
Fnarf 8
Sigh.
Posted by Fnarf http://www.facebook.com/fnarf on August 5, 2010 at 5:08 PM
9
Rowe v. Wade?
Posted by UNPAID COMMENTER on August 5, 2010 at 5:09 PM
10
Okay, here's what's going to happen (warning: legalese ahead) -

Now that the ruling has been appealed, a three-judge panel on the 9th Circuit will hear the appeal, which should take 2-3 years, depending. After the three judge panel rules, regardless of how it rules, the 9th Circuit will rehear the appeal en banc. The difference between an en banc hearing and a normal hearing is that instead of 3 judges, there will be 11 judges on the appellate panel. The en banc ruling will probably take 1-3 years. Then, the loser of the en banc decision will ask the Supreme Court to hear the case, which it almost certainly will. That will take another 1-2 years, if not more.

The reason for taking so long is that everyone who's working on this case knows that the whole world is watching, and they're going to craft their opinions very, very carefully. I expect the 9th Circuit to write a lengthy opinion very similar to Judge Walker's and narrowly based on the facts. If the 9th Circuit goes too far, the Supreme Court will almost certainly overturn the decision.

What's more, this decision won't affect any other state but California. The facts of the case are specific to California, as was the testimony during the trial. As a rule, federal courts are supposed to avoid constitutional questions whenever possible - so even if the rationale is there to overturn Washington's same-sex marriage ban, the courts won't do it because that issue isn't right in front of them. At the same time, anyone who wants to challenge a same-sex ban every other State now has the blueprints as to how to do it.
Posted by Phat Jim on August 5, 2010 at 5:15 PM
M3 11
Roe v. Wade. Speaking of which, I don't think I've heard any positive news about reproductive rights in about 37 years. But I doubt it would have worked out any better to move "incrementally" on that one.
Posted by M3 on August 5, 2010 at 5:17 PM
pissy mcslogbot 12
@7 is a cry for help or something, right?

in a way it's kind of like those Sarah McLachlan tortured animal commercials. --but worse.
Posted by pissy mcslogbot on August 5, 2010 at 5:19 PM
gloomy gus 13
@12, you've put your finger right on it.
Posted by gloomy gus on August 5, 2010 at 5:26 PM
Will in Seattle 14
@12 she's in Atlanta right now. Besides, don't they have a different singer doing those now?
Posted by Will in Seattle http://www.facebook.com/WillSeattle on August 5, 2010 at 5:27 PM
gloomy gus 15
Plus Joe, thanks for the chance to use the word "Magyar", which I've loved since learning "Daar Kom Die Alibama" in the Northwest Boyschoir.
Posted by gloomy gus on August 5, 2010 at 5:29 PM
pissy mcslogbot 16
Poll: which is louder the whoooosh of the Blue Angels, or that of a clue as it passes right over the head of WIS?

but back on topic, IMO the 9th circuit is not going to do any damage to this ruling, and even the Supremes are going to be hard pressed to reverse such a thorough and well decided ruling.

Posted by pissy mcslogbot on August 5, 2010 at 5:42 PM
BombasticMO 17
Nice post. Assume this is fodder for next weeks paper?
Posted by BombasticMO http://www.BombasticMo.com on August 5, 2010 at 5:46 PM
18
This was touched on in the post, but one thing I'd really like to hear more on is this: There seems to be a conflict between what the court in Massachusetts said in striking down DOMA (defining marriage is up to the states, the federal government doesn't have that power) and what the court in California said yesterday (the federal Constitution requires marriage to include same-sex couples). I have a hard time seeing how the Supreme Court could agree with both of these rulings. Will it matter which case gets there first?
Posted by Mason on August 5, 2010 at 5:47 PM
Fnarf 19
@16, the planes; the clue flies far too high over to make a sound.

He is an amazing constitutional scholar, though. Remember: "it's a rule. Not a part. Thereby not a limit".
Posted by Fnarf http://www.facebook.com/fnarf on August 5, 2010 at 5:48 PM
gloomy gus 20
To avoid contributing nothing but silliness to this thread, I went to Harper's No Comment blog by lawyer Scott Horton, whom I can't praise highly enough. Here's just the capper to his wonderful post:
The case will now proceed to the Court of Appeals. The question of the constitutionality of DOMA itself will also eventually find its way to the Supreme Court, though not necessarily through this case. How the case progresses will largely rest in the hands of Republican judges, who compose almost two-thirds of the federal bench. Will they tilt in the direction that Karl Rove ordained, upholding DOMA and thus keeping the issue alive for future election cycles? A year ago, that would have been the broad expectation. But gay marriage has gotten surprising support from conservative and Republican judges. Judge Walker is one case, but, as Andrew Sullivan notes, the recent federal court opinion in Massachusetts holding DOMA unconstitutional was rendered by Nixon appointee Joseph Tauro, and the historic judgment of the Republican-dominated Supreme Court of Iowa was authored by Republican Justice Mark Cady. Public opinion polling shows that outside of the Old Confederacy and the Mormon belt in the West, where unalloyed bigotry is always an effective electoral tactic, the once vital issue no longer resonates for the G.O.P. Will the Party of No accept the signal that Republican judges and lawyers are sending it—namely, that it’s time to find some new hot-button issues?


http://harpers.org/subjects/NoComment#hb…
Posted by gloomy gus on August 5, 2010 at 6:07 PM
Reverse Polarity 21
Jesus Christ, Will. Sometimes I think Fnarf gives you too hard a time, and I try to give you the benefit of the doubt. But sometimes you really are an undeniable dumbass.
Posted by Reverse Polarity on August 5, 2010 at 6:14 PM
Reverse Polarity 22
Oh, and on this issue...

It seems clear that Judge Walker very carefully wrote his ruling to withstand scrutiny by both the 9th Circuit and the Supreme Court. A fast majority of his ruling revolved around findings of fact, which are generally less likely to be reversed by the higher courts.

I won't try to second-guess on details of how the 9th will rule, but they almost certainly have to take the case. They will almost certainly uphold the core of the case. The only real question is how broadly they'll apply it (ie: just to CA, or to other states in the 9th as well). And I agree it will almost certainly move up to the en banc hearing.

Then on to the SC. It is possible, but I would be highly surprised if the SC simply let it stand without hearing. Especially in light of other trials coming from other areas of the country. That is one role of the SC: to clear up conflicts among the rulings of the circuit courts. The only way they could ignore the Prop 8 trial would be if they ruled on some other trial (like MA) first, and use that to cover the Prop 8 issue as well.
Posted by Reverse Polarity on August 5, 2010 at 6:27 PM
Urgutha Forka 23
@10,

Perhaps the anti-gay bigots will have finally evolved into human beings after all those years?
Posted by Urgutha Forka on August 5, 2010 at 7:14 PM
24
Comprehensive, not compressive?
Posted by annie emeritus on August 5, 2010 at 7:45 PM
Chris in Vancouver WA 25
With my new teddy bear daddy Ted Olson on our side, there's no way we can't win!!
Posted by Chris in Vancouver WA on August 5, 2010 at 8:01 PM
26
Wouldn't the "narrow decision" described by Dominic be a mixed bag? First, why would it necessarily turn existing civil union laws into marriage laws? Is there any precedent for that sort of legal transmogrification?

Let's assume that's what happens though. Now the states that don't already have a civil union law are only given two options: marriage equality or nothing. If you disagree with an incrementalist approach, then that my be a plus. But if you believe that the path to equal marriage lies first with civil unions, the path may have gotten a lot steeper with such a ruling.
Posted by madcap on August 6, 2010 at 12:53 AM
Andy Niable 27
There's very easily a way we can't win, Chris: Justice Kennedy chickens out.

Or: The GOP returns to a majority in the Senate and ailing Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg dies.

Either could doom us to a restoration of Prop 8.
Posted by Andy Niable on August 6, 2010 at 1:14 AM
Supreme Ruler Of The Universe 28

Once this whole she-bang blows over, and you get all the rights in the world, how many of you are going to step up to the altar and actually tie the knot?
Posted by Supreme Ruler Of The Universe http://yrihf.com on August 6, 2010 at 9:31 AM
gloomy gus 29
@28, none of your fucking business.
Posted by gloomy gus on August 6, 2010 at 10:03 AM
SchmuckyTheCat 30
Here is another scenario:

There are already ballot measures being prepared to repeal Prop 8 in California. The backers of which think public opinion is changing fast enough that they would succeed. If Prop 8 is repealed, the issue is moot to the courts. Courts hate moot issues and would probably just stop hearing it, even if litigants want to continue.
Posted by SchmuckyTheCat on August 6, 2010 at 10:18 AM
31
@18 "There seems to be a conflict between what the court in Massachusetts said in striking down DOMA (defining marriage is up to the states, the federal government doesn't have that power) and what the court in California said yesterday (the federal Constitution requires marriage to include same-sex couples)."

No, there's a conflict in the over-simplified bumper-sticker summaries of the two cases.

The Massachusetts case wasn't so much about whether the definition of marriage belongs to the state as much as it was that, the state having defined it, the government could not break the citizens involved into separate categories - that the Federal Government couldn't treat some of of the Massachusetts couples as married and some not. It didn't address either way whether Massachusetts HAD to call them married.

The California case, even if it were applied nationwide, still wouldn't say that the Federal Government controls who is and isn't married. It would just set some rules on the state as to how they can make that determination themselves.

For a current example, a state decides whether people can get married at 15 or 18, or 35. But, having done so, it is not allowed by the Federal Constitution to say that white people can get married at 15 but black people cannot marry until 18. That isn't so much the Federal Government saying who can get married, but defining the rules (if needed) by which the state makes that decision. Similarly, a state can't say that Christians may be married, but Buddhists can't.

If Perry were to apply Federally, it wouldn't, in essence say that the Federal definition of marriage overrides the state definition, but rather that sexual orientation is not an allowable basis for states to use to make marriage eligibility decisions. The states could still set eligibility by age, but not by orientation.
More...
Posted by Lymis on August 6, 2010 at 10:27 AM
Sir Vic 32
@25 Bingo! Ted Olsen may be the most experienced SC litigator still taking retainers. He was very direct about taking this case a year or so ago. The key to all of this will be to get the case in front of real lawyers, and not political hacks with a law degree. Real lawyers love digging into this kind of case, as it cuts to the fundemental questions of equality & liberty. Legal junkies are all about parsing the law, and advancing their careers, more than advancing some personal preference. When the time comes, Olsen, et al, will make a perfect presentation geared to the legal junkies on the Supreme Court. This could very well be another 8-1 decision, like the R-71 case.* Real lawyers hate bad law more than they do gays/blacks/women.

* Clarence Thomas should be expected to dissent, as he is a joke of a lawyer & a man. Worst & laziest justice in SC history!
Posted by Sir Vic on August 6, 2010 at 11:24 AM
33
Thank you, Jon Davidson, for an excellent overview of the appeals process. As a student of constitutional law for the last few decades, I appreciate the difficulty in bringing the complexities of the process to a lay audience, and the clarity with which you have done so.
Posted by LeighAnne on August 6, 2010 at 3:27 PM

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