Find Your Valentine
Slog
News & ArtsFriday, July 30, 2010
Film Science Fiction Movies Have a Woman Problem
Posted by Paul Constant on Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 1:09 PM
John Scalzi applies the Bechdel Test to science fiction movies, and finds the results to be appalling.
(The Bechdel Test, if you haven't heard, is a bit of genius from cartoonist Alison Bechdel that should be as ubiquitous on the internet as Godwin's Law. When you're watching a movie, you should ask yourself:
1. Are there at least two women characters in the film?
2. Who talk to each other?
3. About something other than a man?
You can find a website listing Bechdel Test results over here. Sadly, you can apply this test to some novels and it fails, too.)
1
I knew there was a reason I liked the Alien movies, Even the main Alien is a Queen and so a female....With other characters that are female as well excpet the 3rd one and that well get the uncut version if you like the series....I am turning into a nerd!!
3
so, if these 3 criteria are not met i should feel bad for watching the film. tad over sensitive, no?
4
@3: No, I don't think that's the point. It's more like a simple litmus test whose only point is to highlight a specific problem with a wider trend. It's pretty much not meant to look at one movie at a time -- it's meant to question a culture.
One movie failing doesn't mean the movie is bad, but fifty or a hundred movies failing, while those movies can obviously still be quality stuff, starts to point to something wrong.
One movie failing doesn't mean the movie is bad, but fifty or a hundred movies failing, while those movies can obviously still be quality stuff, starts to point to something wrong.
6
I don't think the alien movies technically pass except for the 4th one with Wynona ryder. I know ripley kicks ass but i don't think she ever has any extended conversation with another woman in any of the first 3 films.
Video games are another good place to test. Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 seems to pass, unless you play the game under very specific conditions.
Video games are another good place to test. Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 seems to pass, unless you play the game under very specific conditions.
7
And that is why I tend to enjoy old-school sexploitation movies like Faster Pussycat, Kill! Kill!, or The Muthers. Although originally created for male audiences, these films feature women who are angry, tough, and independent - and who don't rely entirely on the male characters for a sense of identity.
8
@3 - This is just an objective measure of movies, not a judgment. I don't think anyone would argue that All About Steve passing the Bechdel Test makes it a good movie. Nor did I change my mind about District 9 because it didn't pass. And Sex and the City 2 may pass with flying colors, but I still think of it as a film all about women as they relate to men and have no desire to see it - I'd rather go see the A-Team.
If you think this test is trying to make you feel bad for watching (and possibly enjoying) a movie that doesn't meet all the criteria, perhaps you're the one who's being a tad oversensitive.
If you think this test is trying to make you feel bad for watching (and possibly enjoying) a movie that doesn't meet all the criteria, perhaps you're the one who's being a tad oversensitive.
9
#6 Yes, in the first Alien movie there was Veronica Cartwright as Lambert. She & Sigourney Weaver had some conversations- though not necessarily nice ones- but they did not pertain to a man per se.
10
@3. Nowhere in the comic did Bechdel suggest anyone should feel bad for seeing movies that don't fit this criteria. In fact the punchline was that the woman who followed this rule hadn't seen a movie in six years. "Dykes to Watch Out For" was always more about noticing cultural trends than it was about making anybody feel guilty.
If you choose to feel guilty, no one can stop you, I guess, but calling Bechdel oversensitive says more about you than it does about her.
If you choose to feel guilty, no one can stop you, I guess, but calling Bechdel oversensitive says more about you than it does about her.
12
Oh your right #9,
I'll forever remember her vomiting cherry pits and going batshit crazy in The Witches of Eastwick.
I'll forever remember her vomiting cherry pits and going batshit crazy in The Witches of Eastwick.
13
What #1 said, and also Aliens (and Alien) are also just absolutely 99% perfect movies in their genre.
17
You know what's awesome? I could link to female blogs and writers who have been having this exact conversation for years, but it only starts to get linked around in general when it's a man that writes it up.
The meta on this is more fun than the actual post.
The meta on this is more fun than the actual post.
18
#6 - For what it's worth, in the director's cut of Aliens, there's a scene with another female where Ripley is looking for her daughter, who she's outlived. Other than that, the bonus footage doesn't help the movie any.
19
#11 Totally. I almost was going to say that as well but being as Newt is a child i didn't know if that counted or not. There was also the tough Marine lady- but i'm not sure if her & Ripley had any actual verbal exchanges.
Oh! As my partner just pointed out to me- there are the "Cube" movies. Great stuff, all had more than one female and nearly all conversation was about trying to get the hell out of their situation. I highly recommend them- but mainly part 1, for sure.
Oh! As my partner just pointed out to me- there are the "Cube" movies. Great stuff, all had more than one female and nearly all conversation was about trying to get the hell out of their situation. I highly recommend them- but mainly part 1, for sure.
20
I'd be interested to see the test results for male versus female writers, and then again for the genders reversed in the test for both. I have a feeling people mostly just write their own gender and aren't very good at writing for the other.
21
Wouldn't Boneshaker not even pass this test because the kick-ass female lead is searching for her son? The Bechdel test has always annoyed me.
22
I guess "Get away from her, you BITCH!" is talking to each other about something other than a man.
23
OMG! #7 You made a Faster Pussycat, Kill Kill! reference! I love that flick! lol Kudos to fellow FPKK fan! Here's hoping Tarantino does not screw it up with the remake he is going to do.
After seeing "Death Proof" i think he might do ok by it- especially as he is a self-professed mega fan of the original.
After seeing "Death Proof" i think he might do ok by it- especially as he is a self-professed mega fan of the original.
24
Alison Bechdel wrote a really great comic strip, for years, but she seems to be on extended sabbatical. I miss the strip.
People do write what they know. In all of Jane Austen's novels, I think there's no scene in which two men talk to each other without a woman present to overhear them. Austen had idea how or what men talked about, when they weren't inhibited by the presence of the ladies.
Yes, it's the trend that's interesting, not what it says about any one movie. Maybe what we can read from the trend is, a great many movie makers are, in their own way, as cloistered as Austen was.
People do write what they know. In all of Jane Austen's novels, I think there's no scene in which two men talk to each other without a woman present to overhear them. Austen had idea how or what men talked about, when they weren't inhibited by the presence of the ladies.
Yes, it's the trend that's interesting, not what it says about any one movie. Maybe what we can read from the trend is, a great many movie makers are, in their own way, as cloistered as Austen was.
25
@21 the more important question is why anyone should care what happens in Boneshaker. It's an awful book.
26
It's good to see Starship Troopers on there too. So basically, futuristic, co-ed, space Marines are the key to passing the Bechdel test, and to my heart.
27
This is great. I think it should be combined with the Goldeen tests (named for my aunt), who says everyone should look at a movie and see if there are any female characters who are NOT:
A Love Interest
A Mother
A Girlfriend/Wife/Daughter
In other words, a character who doesn't, by definition of their role, have to be female.
The list is pretty slim. Happily, one of my favorite fantasy-scifi movies, Princess Mononoke, passes both tests with flying colors.
A Love Interest
A Mother
A Girlfriend/Wife/Daughter
In other words, a character who doesn't, by definition of their role, have to be female.
The list is pretty slim. Happily, one of my favorite fantasy-scifi movies, Princess Mononoke, passes both tests with flying colors.
28
I hear that Angelina Jolie doesn't do that in SALT.
Mind you, the part was written for a man, just as the part of Ripley in Alien was written for a man.
Mind you, the part was written for a man, just as the part of Ripley in Alien was written for a man.
29
@20, if you check out what other people have written about the Bechdel measure (e.g. at the site Paul linked), you'll find that two things really increase the chance of a pass:
1) having a female protagonist, and
2) being written by a woman.
It's not that men are bad at writing women, just that men see "woman" as a very specific type of role, usually romantic/sexual, and default to male for all characters that need not be women for plot reasons. And most working writers are male.
1) having a female protagonist, and
2) being written by a woman.
It's not that men are bad at writing women, just that men see "woman" as a very specific type of role, usually romantic/sexual, and default to male for all characters that need not be women for plot reasons. And most working writers are male.
31
#28 And also "Jackie Brown" was based on the book Rum Punch and the lead caracter was male, but Tarantino (QT ref again sorry) had specifically wanted Pam Grier for it so he wrote it for her. I love me some Pam Grier. She rocks me monkey socks lol.
Oh- also, going back to original topic, one just came to me "Mars Attacks!".
Oh- also, going back to original topic, one just came to me "Mars Attacks!".
34
A real winner from the comments section of that website:
Jeff
"Soon after learning about the Bechdel Test I went to a happy hour and sat between two women. There were around three other guys there. At first I was happy about sitting between two attractive women, but once they started talking to each other I realized how boring female dialog can be to men. I had to change seats after about five minutes because I couldn't stand it anymore. That's when I realized why so many films fail the Bechdel Test. It takes writing talent to construct believable dialog between female characters that doesn't put men to sleep."
My purdy lady eyes have rolled into the back of my silly little head.
Jeff
"Soon after learning about the Bechdel Test I went to a happy hour and sat between two women. There were around three other guys there. At first I was happy about sitting between two attractive women, but once they started talking to each other I realized how boring female dialog can be to men. I had to change seats after about five minutes because I couldn't stand it anymore. That's when I realized why so many films fail the Bechdel Test. It takes writing talent to construct believable dialog between female characters that doesn't put men to sleep."
My purdy lady eyes have rolled into the back of my silly little head.
35
How about Pitch Black? Did claudia black and the pilot woman (or the girl pretending to be a boy) talk about anything other then Riddick? I think so, but am not sure.
36
@30
I thought Dick wrote Starship Troopers. I learn something new every day on slog. Something useless, but something.
I thought Dick wrote Starship Troopers. I learn something new every day on slog. Something useless, but something.
37
Ripley is the perfect female heroine. She is not defined by her looks or her relationship to men and is strong w/o being cold and unemotional or sacrificing her femaleness.
38
Why is Sci-Fi singled out? I'll bet at least 70% of movies that aren't 'chick flicks' from the last fifty years would qualify. Also, Scalzi's a douche, 2012 is a disaster movie in the same vein as Deep Impact, The Poseidon Adventure, Twister and Dante's Peak, not sci-fi. AND he left out Serenity from the '05 group which features several strong role-model-worthy named female characters.
39
#35 Yes- you are correct. In "Pitch Black", Claudia Black and Radha Mitchell do have more than a few exchanges if i am remembring it right. Been a while since i caught all of it though. But i'm pretty sure they did.
40
#37 i gotta agree with ya there. Actually Ripley is one of my all time favorite movie characters ever- on top of all the good points you made.
Sorry- movies are my "thing". I managed a video store for years and can chat movies all day. Yes- i am an official movie and movie trivia geek and i own it! LOL. i'll try to chill now. Thank you. Cheers & Happy Friday, folks!
Sorry- movies are my "thing". I managed a video store for years and can chat movies all day. Yes- i am an official movie and movie trivia geek and i own it! LOL. i'll try to chill now. Thank you. Cheers & Happy Friday, folks!
41
@25: word.
The is a fair test for some films, ridiculous for others.
Moon fails.
I think The Road does too.
The is a fair test for some films, ridiculous for others.
Moon fails.
I think The Road does too.
44
#17 - Word.
#38 - Because Scalzi writes and blogs about SF. I bet he chose those examples because he felt his readership would more likely be familiar with them than in other non-genre movies.
#38 - Because Scalzi writes and blogs about SF. I bet he chose those examples because he felt his readership would more likely be familiar with them than in other non-genre movies.
45
John Scalzi is so fucking awesome. Definitely one of the leading lights of modern sci-fi and probably the funniest.
@41, The Road - the movie - fails every test for everything. It was goddamned terrible. That was not a book that was ever meant to be cinematized. It is entirely fair to apply this test to it, because fuck that movie, that's why.
@41, The Road - the movie - fails every test for everything. It was goddamned terrible. That was not a book that was ever meant to be cinematized. It is entirely fair to apply this test to it, because fuck that movie, that's why.
46
If a guy had told me that I would have thought it was extremely sexist, but I've been told by women that all women talk about amongst themselves is cooking and reality TV and that an all-female work environment was torture for progressive women. Make of that what you will.
47
@46:
That has more to do with work environment than gender. Listen to the conversations of a bunch of guys around the water cooler in any random office and it's not any more interesting. Those are just boring people; it's not a problem inherent to women.
That has more to do with work environment than gender. Listen to the conversations of a bunch of guys around the water cooler in any random office and it's not any more interesting. Those are just boring people; it's not a problem inherent to women.
48
@27 Uhhh...last time I checked, most male characters in movies are a love interest, a father, of a boyfriend/husband/son. It kinda seems to me that your test just proves that female characters are female and have relationships with the other characters. And relationships are what make movies interesting, right?
49
You guys know you don't have to speculate about the number of movies of any genre that pass this test, right? The information's been compiled in a wiki and linked in Paul's post.
50
@47 Exactly. I've worked in all female environments that were stimulating and ones that were brain dead. The point is that women are human beings, and human beings have a range of interests and experiences. Also: people tone things down in the workplace SIGNIFICANTLY. Cooking and reality tv are easy, unoffensive, universally accessible conversations. Personally, I absolutely refuse to talk politics, philosophy, or religion in the office. It's inappropriate.
52
@48, I think that point is that 9 times out of 10, men are playing the protagonists or the core members of the cast. They have a wide range of opportunities. Women tend to exist solely in relation to the men. It's not that these men aren't brothers/husbands/fathers, it's that they're allowed to be more than just that.
53
Mainstream science-fiction movies are written for mainstream audiences, not science fiction audiences. That's why they're such sausage fests -- they're basically movies written for horny teenage boys. Good science fiction movies -- the kind that become classics -- tend to score better on this test, even if they're written by men.
1) The Descent
2) Aliens (since all the readers here seem to be forgetting Vasquez)
3) Serenity
There are a bunch of more obscure ones, but also, generally speaking, because of how the budgeting tends to be structured, the dynamic is more common in sci-fi television -- Joss Whedon shows, Terminator: TSCC, Bionic Woman, etc. The problem with the male-ness of science fiction movies has a lot more to do with how they're funded, who funds them, and where they fit into the big-budget studio system than it has to do with what sci-fi nerds enjoy or consume.
1) The Descent
2) Aliens (since all the readers here seem to be forgetting Vasquez)
3) Serenity
There are a bunch of more obscure ones, but also, generally speaking, because of how the budgeting tends to be structured, the dynamic is more common in sci-fi television -- Joss Whedon shows, Terminator: TSCC, Bionic Woman, etc. The problem with the male-ness of science fiction movies has a lot more to do with how they're funded, who funds them, and where they fit into the big-budget studio system than it has to do with what sci-fi nerds enjoy or consume.
54
Another film that passes the test is "Sunshine", an overlooked sci-fi film from Danny Boyle that falls off the rails a bit at the end but with so few good science fiction films being made these days, a welcome addition to the genre of late.
55
@53 Actually, it's not a mainstream thing. Howard Mittelmark, an editor, has read a lot of science-fiction novels and mentions that it's a real weak point for the genre that women are basically ignored... Unless they're the love interest.
56
RE: Aliens. Vasquez (the origin of my Latina dyke fetish) doesn't talk with Ripley alone ever, but I think she's only ever alone with one character for about 20 seconds. But they do both participate in this very important exchange:
Vasquez: [after barely surviving the Alien surprise attack] Okay. We have several canisters of CM-20. I say we go back in there and nerve gas the whole fuckin' nest.
Hicks: It's worth the try, but we don't know if that's gonna effect them.
Hudson: Let's just bug out and call it even, why are we talking about this for?
Ripley: I say we take off, and nuke the site from orbit. It's the onyl way to be sure.
Hudson: Fuckin' a.
Burke: Whoa, whoa wait a a minute. This place has a substantial dollar value attached to it.
Ripley: They can "bill" me.
Burke: Look. I know this is an emotional moment for all of us, okay I know that. But let's not make snap judgments, this is an important species we're dealing with, and I don't think that you or I has the right to arbitrarily exterminate them.
Ripley: Wrong.
Vasquez: Yeah, watch us.
Hudson: Hey, you may not been keeping up on current events, but we just got our asses kicked, pal.
Burke: I'm not blind to what is going on, but I can not authroize that kind of action, I'm sorry.
Ripley: Well, "I" think that Corporal Hicks, has authority here.
Burke: Corporal Hicks.
Ripley: This situation is under military jurisdiction, and Hicks is next in the chain of command, am I right Corporal?
Hicks: Yeah. You're right.
Burke: C'mon Ripley. This is a multi-million dollar installation here, and he can't make those kind of decisions, he's just a grunt.
[to Hicks]
Burke: Uh, no offense.
Hicks: None taken.
More...
Vasquez: [after barely surviving the Alien surprise attack] Okay. We have several canisters of CM-20. I say we go back in there and nerve gas the whole fuckin' nest.
Hicks: It's worth the try, but we don't know if that's gonna effect them.
Hudson: Let's just bug out and call it even, why are we talking about this for?
Ripley: I say we take off, and nuke the site from orbit. It's the onyl way to be sure.
Hudson: Fuckin' a.
Burke: Whoa, whoa wait a a minute. This place has a substantial dollar value attached to it.
Ripley: They can "bill" me.
Burke: Look. I know this is an emotional moment for all of us, okay I know that. But let's not make snap judgments, this is an important species we're dealing with, and I don't think that you or I has the right to arbitrarily exterminate them.
Ripley: Wrong.
Vasquez: Yeah, watch us.
Hudson: Hey, you may not been keeping up on current events, but we just got our asses kicked, pal.
Burke: I'm not blind to what is going on, but I can not authroize that kind of action, I'm sorry.
Ripley: Well, "I" think that Corporal Hicks, has authority here.
Burke: Corporal Hicks.
Ripley: This situation is under military jurisdiction, and Hicks is next in the chain of command, am I right Corporal?
Hicks: Yeah. You're right.
Burke: C'mon Ripley. This is a multi-million dollar installation here, and he can't make those kind of decisions, he's just a grunt.
[to Hicks]
Burke: Uh, no offense.
Hicks: None taken.
57
@55- Maybe it's just the what I read, but it seems to me like there are an awful lot of current SF authors who use female protagonists.
58
If military SF is your cup of tea, David Weber's sprawling series of novels starring Honor Harrington passes the Bechdel Test with flying colors. Now granted, a series of 11 full-length books (and counting), not to mention short stories and collateral series, gives you room for a LOT deep character development but I think Weber writes strong female characters better than just about any male SF writer, and better than most writers, period, IMO.
I'd love to see Harrington on-screen. I think if one of the cable nets was willing to invest the money and got some good writers to do it, they'd have a real winner.
And since Doctor Who's relaunch in 2005, there has been a vast improvement in the female companions' characterizations on the show compared to the classic series. I especially noticed it whenever Sarah Jane Smith appeared on the new series.
I'd love to see Harrington on-screen. I think if one of the cable nets was willing to invest the money and got some good writers to do it, they'd have a real winner.
And since Doctor Who's relaunch in 2005, there has been a vast improvement in the female companions' characterizations on the show compared to the classic series. I especially noticed it whenever Sarah Jane Smith appeared on the new series.
59
@34 Pretty much any conversation between any two people in any subject in any setting is going to be a snoozefest. I used to decry "unrealistic" Hollywood dialog till I wrote a few screenplays. Any "realistic" conversation--if by realistic you mean naturalistic--will likely lay on the page like my late grandmother's meatloaf. Heavy and indigestible. Gender's got nothing to do with it. Put yourself between two stereotypically handsome jocks yakking about sports standings and statistics and most people would be bored out of their skulls as well.
Robert Altman is the one filmmaker I can think of who could pull off anything close to what feels like a natural conversation on screen.
Robert Altman is the one filmmaker I can think of who could pull off anything close to what feels like a natural conversation on screen.
Advertisement
Most Commented on Slog
-
SL Letter of the Day: Life Sentence by Dan Savage
-
SL Letter of the Day: Daddy Loves Who? by Dan Savage
-
Required Listening: Howard Stern on Ellen, JC Penney, Bullied Gay Kids, Rosie, Santorum, Bachmann, et al by Dan Savage
-
Crowdsourcing Uncut Police Video from the Dec. 12 Occupy Protest at the Port of Seattle by Eli Sanders
-
State Legislator Testifies That His Opposition to Same-Sex Marriage Came to Him from a Commercial for Jack in the Box by Christopher Frizzelle
-
"Let me be the first one to say: My business will refuse to participate in a same-sex marriage ceremony," by Republican Representative Matt Shea of the Spokane Valley by Eli Sanders
-
The AP Is Reporting That Whitney Houston Is Dead by Paul Constant
-
The Onion Is on a Roll: "Iran Worried U.S. Might Be Building 8,500th Nuclear Weapon" by Charles Mudede
-
"I don't know if I want to be here [if gay marriage passes]," by Republican State Senator Jay Rodne of North Bend by Eli Sanders
-
Announcing The Stranger's Tournament of Dunces! Who's the Dumbest Representative in the State House? by Christopher Frizzelle
RSS
Facebook
Twitter
Comments (60) RSS