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Wednesday, July 21, 2010

Trust But Verify

Posted by on Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 6:21 AM

The Guardian:

A Palestinian man has been convicted of rape after having consensual sex with a woman who had believed him to be a fellow Jew.

Sabbar Kashur, 30, was sentenced to 18 months in prison on Monday after the court ruled that he was guilty of rape by deception. According to the complaint filed by the woman with the Jerusalem district court, the two met in downtown Jerusalem in September 2008 where Kashur, an Arab from East Jerusalem, introduced himself as a Jewish bachelor seeking a serious relationship. The two then had consensual sex in a nearby building before Kashur left.

When she later found out that he was not Jewish but an Arab, she filed a criminal complaint for rape and indecent assault.

Um... I hope this doesn't come across a "slut shaming," because I don't think there's anything wrong with one-night stands, or being a slut, or fucking the shit out of a guy you've only just met (that's how I met my husband), but I gotta say...

When we have consensual sex with strangers—when we go home (or to "a nearby building") with someone we've only just met—we're not just taking a chance on a person we know very little about. We're taking a chance on our own judgment. With no way to verify the story of the hot stranger—he could be lying about anything—we're taking a chance on our own bullshit detectors. And no one's bullshit detectors are 100% accurate. So someone who can't bear the thought of accidentally fucking the shit out of an Arab or a Republican or a married man or a guy who makes less than $250,000 a year has no business fucking complete strangers. That person owes it to himself/herself to get to know the people he/she wants to fuck a bit better before visiting any nearby buildings with them.

Not because it's okay to lie. But because people do lie.

And would an Israeli court have found this guy guilty of "rape by deception" if he was Jewish, not Palestinian, and had lied about his income or his political allegiances or his desire for a "serious relationship"? Israeli prisons would be filled-to-overflowing if they locked up every Jewish guy who had misrepresented himself to a woman whose pants he wanted to get into.

 

Comments (64) RSS

Oldest First Unregistered On Registered On Add a comment
1
Hold on. Rape by deception? HA! Half of all one night stands is based on deception on some level. That's pretty fucked up.

Probably for the best though. It's not racism. Everyone knows we shouldn't mix the races. Everyone knows how bad it would be if blacks and whites... sorry I meant Arabs and Jews bred.

For the love of god can we please stop supporting this hateful racist country?
Posted by Root on July 21, 2010 at 6:52 AM · Report this
Vince 2
This sounds like laws against race mixing. And when you add to this the Israeli's fear of being out populated by Palestinians, it is an ugly miscarriage of justice.
Posted by Vince on July 21, 2010 at 6:55 AM · Report this
3
Maybe we can stop supporting it but probably not "for the love of god". Ha. Ha.
Posted by AK on July 21, 2010 at 6:57 AM · Report this
pissy mcslogbot 4
oh man, there goes my "a Jewish bachelor seeking a serious relationship" schtick...
Posted by pissy mcslogbot on July 21, 2010 at 6:58 AM · Report this
5
re 1: Interesting that you mention blacks and whites. I wonder how the situation would have played out differently if it had been a black person and a white person, instead of a Jew and an Arab.
Posted by AK on July 21, 2010 at 7:02 AM · Report this
pissy mcslogbot 6
I woulda thought the suicide belt might have tipped her off.

badumm-ump.
Posted by pissy mcslogbot on July 21, 2010 at 7:12 AM · Report this
Frau Blucher 7
Wait. She was actually hot for that Jewish cock, consented but then later (after finding out it wasn't Jewish) claimed "rape by deception, and the dude goes to prison for 18 months??

Damn, that is seriously fucked up.
Posted by Frau Blucher on July 21, 2010 at 7:14 AM · Report this
8
It seems kind of ... ok not kind of, incredibly fucked up that you can put someone in prison for lying about your religion. Shit I was baptized Presbyterian but I tell everyone im atheist these days. I guess I would go to jail for misrepresenting myself. Israeli courts show that yet again, that whole place is just fucked up beyond belief.
Posted by tigntink on July 21, 2010 at 7:14 AM · Report this
Joe Szilagyi 9
Would the legal outcome had been the same if she had been an Arab woman and he a Jewish man?

Israeli apartheid is quite real.
Posted by Joe Szilagyi http://twitter.com/joeszi on July 21, 2010 at 7:17 AM · Report this
Brunobär 12
Those who already decry Israeli "apartheid" should calm down a bit; it is indeed common in Israel to convict people for lying about your identity in order to convince others to have sex with you.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/new…

Quote: "In the past, men who misrepresented themselves in this way were convicted of fraud.

One such case was that of Eran Ben-Avraham, who told a woman he was a neurosurgeon after which she had sex with him, and was convicted of three counts of fraud. "

I personally believe this is bullshit, but as far as I can see there is not really a racist double standard...
Posted by Brunobär on July 21, 2010 at 7:29 AM · Report this
13
Is anyone else disturbed that lying to someone to con your way into their pants is legally defined as "rape"?
Posted by Elle on July 21, 2010 at 7:33 AM · Report this
BrandonC 14
I keep wondering what my brethren in Israel are smoking to make them this crazy. Maybe being surrounded by enemies is enough to make you this huge of a dick, but it's happening on a national level.

This is disgusting, but I do think it was reprehensible for him to lie like that. But hey, our women are awesome in bed.
Posted by BrandonC on July 21, 2010 at 7:35 AM · Report this
Chef Thunder 15
Interesting how quickly the anti-Israel folks start piling on. This would have had a very different outcome of course if it had happened in an Arab country... He would probably have been whipped while she would probably have been "honor" murdered by a close relation.

Let the Israel bashing continue.
Posted by Chef Thunder on July 21, 2010 at 7:37 AM · Report this
16
We expect better of liberal democracies, Chef. Yes, things would've turned out worse for these kids if they had gone to a nearby building in Dubai or Tehran.

And that's an excuse?
Posted by Dan Savage on July 21, 2010 at 7:40 AM · Report this
samanthaf63 17
Since Jewish men are circumcised and since most non-Jewish men in the Middle East are not, she either conveniently overlooked this fact or rushed into it too soon without looking.

If she was all that hot and bothered, I doubt she cared about it and just experienced guilt and shame about her behavior - just convenient he turned out to be gentile.

Lastly, men the world over have used about any excuse to get into a woman's pants (Sure, I love you, baby) - why should this be any different?
Posted by samanthaf63 on July 21, 2010 at 7:49 AM · Report this
whitness 18
@ 12... Just because you find another case that "proves" there is no double standard, now we're supposed to believe that the Israeli government doesn't enforce discriminatory laws against Arabs? What a crock of horseshit. I wish I lived in your idyllic universe where racism doesn't exist and democratic governments are fair to all of everyone!

And what an malicious bitch! Because she was choose to participate in a one-night stand and got played, a man loses his freedom for the next two years of his life. Here in the U.S, we call your kind "gullible". Suck it up woman! You learn (not to fuck strange men the day you meet them) and you move on.
Posted by whitness on July 21, 2010 at 7:51 AM · Report this
Joe Szilagyi 19
@15, funny how you start on anti-Israel claims because I mention Israeli apartheid. I'm not anti-Israel, and have quite a few Jew friends (and have known a few who weren't the whole 'diaspora' but from Israel instead). The double standards exist though. This is just one more little brick in the wall of evidence. Being for or against something is not an all-or-nothing scenario. That's a religious view, and fuck that view. In the real world, things work differently.
Posted by Joe Szilagyi http://twitter.com/joeszi on July 21, 2010 at 7:53 AM · Report this
Brunobär 20
@18 I didn't come up with one case; the article I linked to (which, if you read it, was very critical of the verdict) clearly said that this was common and gave one example, probably one that had raised a bit more attention before. Secondly, I never said that there is no racism in Israel - I do believe, however, that it is a far cry from what most people associate with the term "apartheid".
Posted by Brunobär on July 21, 2010 at 8:02 AM · Report this
21
Just because Israel isn't as bad as Iran doesn't mean what they did to this man is ok.
Posted by tigntink on July 21, 2010 at 8:20 AM · Report this
22
@ 17 - all or almost all Muslim men are circumcised.

http://whqlibdoc.who.int/publications/20…
Posted by UnoriginalAndrew on July 21, 2010 at 8:24 AM · Report this
TheMisanthrope 23
@19 OMG. You didn't just pull the "I have quite a few [insert race/religion here] friends" card, did you?

There needs to be a Sarah Palin rule about this.
Posted by TheMisanthrope on July 21, 2010 at 8:26 AM · Report this
24
I was thinking of the "serious relationship" angle too. Man, this guy got screwed.
Posted by Gloria on July 21, 2010 at 8:26 AM · Report this
smade 25
If she had said she was on the pill but she had been lying about that would that be rape by deception, too?
Posted by smade on July 21, 2010 at 8:28 AM · Report this
lark 26
Dan,
I agree. It was a shame that this sentence was allowed. More to the point, you are correct about deceit being used to get in someone's pants. All genders and orientations use it. No one can be 100% certain especially at first encounter.
Posted by lark on July 21, 2010 at 8:32 AM · Report this
heythere 27
Just gotta say I love you Dan - love the way you tell it like it is.
Posted by heythere on July 21, 2010 at 8:38 AM · Report this
seandr 28
OMG, I was just raped by deception by a 16 year old who lied to me and said she was 18.

Wait til I tell the cops - she is soooo busted!!
Posted by seandr on July 21, 2010 at 8:39 AM · Report this
29
She needs a religion condom
Posted by LiberatusQuirkus on July 21, 2010 at 8:46 AM · Report this
gttim 30
"Of course I love you honey!"
Posted by gttim on July 21, 2010 at 8:48 AM · Report this
Kevin_BGFH 31
@17 - Most Muslim men are also circumcised. About 30% of men in the world, of whom about 68% are Muslim.
Posted by Kevin_BGFH http://biggayfrathouse.typepad.com/blog/ on July 21, 2010 at 9:05 AM · Report this
32
If I don't fart on our first date, is that rape?
Posted by DJSauvage on July 21, 2010 at 9:08 AM · Report this
Anne in MA 33
@ 12 - And even if those fraud convictions were not a rare exception to the rule, there is a big, big difference between being convicted of fraud and being convicted of rape. Both in terms of stigma and in terms of sentence.

This is absurd.
Posted by Anne in MA on July 21, 2010 at 9:27 AM · Report this
fannerz 34
As a Jew, I am disgusted. Israel was founded by HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS, people who escaped a regime where an Aryan was guilty of "race destruction" if they had sex with a Jew, a capital offense at the time. Can we learn nothing from our own goddamn history?

It's shit like this... ergh...
Seriously, what the fuck? God doesn't want you boning Muslims? "G-d" doesn't want you fucking in near by buildings, PERIOD. Stop hiding behind your uppity religious minority mask. Extremism is extremism is extremism. Racism is Racism is Racism.
Posted by fannerz on July 21, 2010 at 9:34 AM · Report this
Mickymse 35
My initial reaction was WTF? about the verdict... but after reading through the linked article, I feel like we're missing some information.

The "rape by deception" charge came about as part of a plea bargain. It was originally supposed to be "rape and indecent assault."

And why plead guilty to a lesser charge? Were the guy's lawyers just certain of a fucked up racist ruling, or is there some clear evidence of wrongdoing on his part that this article isn't printing?
Posted by Mickymse on July 21, 2010 at 9:42 AM · Report this
36
ummm... shouldn't his "bishop in a turtleneck" have given him away? how often are palestinian men circumcised?
Posted by ianbnyc on July 21, 2010 at 9:45 AM · Report this
37
That is so racist.

Also, when I used to be single I would wear a push-up bra to the bars. False advertising! I'm lucky I wasn't thrown i jail.
Posted by Moonmaid on July 21, 2010 at 9:50 AM · Report this
Mickymse 38
*SIGH* And why am I NOT surprised that the link to Ha'aretz in #12 above provides a major Israeli paper citing the High Court case that allows for convictions like this, puts it in context, states that the case will be appealed, and also editorializes that the whole idea of fraudulent "rape" is bad case law?

Of course The Guardian took the most anti-Israel slant out of it, and of course left wingers around here pile on to the evidence.

What's next for all of you to pile on? An article about how Sarah Palin is dumber than a 5th grader? Or one quoting some guy who doesn't believe in global warming because it snowed somewhere?
Posted by Mickymse on July 21, 2010 at 9:51 AM · Report this
Sly 39
@28: Brilliant.
Posted by Sly on July 21, 2010 at 9:52 AM · Report this
40
38 - Of course it will be repealed but it shouldn't have happened in the first place.

Ill repeat what I said earlier again. Just because what they did isn't as bad as what some other people do, doesn't mean that what they did isn't bad and shouldn't be looked down upon.

It is disgusting anyone, ANYWHERE, should spend even a day in jail over something as trivial as this.
Posted by tigntink on July 21, 2010 at 10:04 AM · Report this
Mickymse 41
40 - No, what people don't seem to understand is that what ONE Israeli court judge does (or even a couple) does not define ALL Israelis or the entire country any more than the ruling of a bad judge in the U.S. defines you or our entire country.

Get it?
Posted by Mickymse on July 21, 2010 at 10:10 AM · Report this
Joe Szilagyi 42
Hey Dan, you seen this?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/…

I never even knew this law in Israel existed till now. I love how it requires 12-year olds born to Arab Israelis be expelled from Israel.
Posted by Joe Szilagyi http://twitter.com/joeszi on July 21, 2010 at 10:24 AM · Report this
Will in Seattle 43
But ... they're both Semetic.

Besides, didn't His Noodliness bless them both with the gift of life and a coupon for a nice spaghetti dinner afterwards?
Posted by Will in Seattle http://www.facebook.com/WillSeattle on July 21, 2010 at 10:51 AM · Report this
Some Old Nobodaddy Logged In 44
I love how the hand-wringers get their panties in a bunch about slog commenters "piling on" Israel. Um, gee, defensive much? This is a blatant act of institutional state bigotry, something that no decent, moral human should defend, and yet here's folks defending it. And then acting hurt when people point it out: "You're all just piling on poor, innocent Israel!"

This is what Israel does, it plays the victim card. It did this to take the land after WWII, and has been using it ever since. Israelis will step on your neck, shoot you in the balls & steal your land, and still expect people to treat them like victims that need protection. How dare you "pile on" to those poor Israelis that just want a nice, clean, segregated society w/o all those dirty Arabs.

Posted by Some Old Nobodaddy Logged In on July 21, 2010 at 10:52 AM · Report this
45
@41 The government represents it's people. It is just like here in the US - half of united states citizens are fucking failures, the other half of us are naive. Our government represents us as a whole even if it doesn't represent MY particular ideals. It is MY job to work to make it represent my ideals, if that is important to me.
Posted by tigntink on July 21, 2010 at 11:17 AM · Report this
Will in Seattle 46
Really, @45 ... but then why don't they represent the Palestinians and Christians who are citizens of Israel?

They pay taxes too.
Posted by Will in Seattle http://www.facebook.com/WillSeattle on July 21, 2010 at 11:30 AM · Report this
47
@45, what about the failures who are naive? Or the successful people who aren't naive? Your assertion is silly.
Posted by LJM on July 21, 2010 at 11:33 AM · Report this
48
Unfortunately due to bullshit aparteid style crap they don't seem to recognize the palestinians as human beings. =( there should be protection for minorities but like california perhaps their constitution is worthless at doing that.
Posted by tigntink on July 21, 2010 at 11:35 AM · Report this
49
Oh I consider myself a naive stupid failure for hoping that Obama might have been an actual centrist instead of middle of the road right wing. And due to people like me our government represents that.
Posted by tigntink on July 21, 2010 at 11:37 AM · Report this
51
I was raped by deception too. My girlfriend told me she would bake me a pie if I did her real good. I did and still no pie!

What the fuck! You're going to prison bitch! All you had to do was bake a marionberry, and now because of your deception you'll end up like Marion Barry...
Posted by scratchmaster joe on July 21, 2010 at 11:56 AM · Report this
Kinison 52
Another reason to boycott Israel, they are not a democracy as they clearly have racist laws.

We have similar rape lawsuits in America, even one involving identical twins and that was thrown out of court. It did not meet the technical definition of rape.
Posted by Kinison http://www.holgatehawks.com on July 21, 2010 at 11:58 AM · Report this
Fifty-Two-Eighty 53
It's really quite simple, folks:

1) Israel is a theocracy.
2) Theocracies do shit like this.

It's also a really good example of why we need to fight so hard to keep the Christian wingnuts from doing it here.
Posted by Fifty-Two-Eighty http://www.nra.org on July 21, 2010 at 12:04 PM · Report this
long-time reader 54
Further evidence that Israel is an ass.

And before anybody calls me an anti-Semite, I think Iran is also an ass. And the Vatican.
Posted by long-time reader on July 21, 2010 at 1:31 PM · Report this
Kinison 55
NOTE: A similar miscarriage of justice happened a few years ago when a fully armed Israeli Jew dressed in IDF uniform, went trolling in a Arab town in Israel. Opened fire on a bus, killing 4 people, but the Arab population fought this guy, killed him on the spot.

Next thing you know, 13 Arab Israelis are arrested and on trial for murder of the guy who killed 4 people with an assault rifle. A guy who deserted his post at the IDF, who used state issued firearm to murder Arabs.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/jewish-terro…

On the flip side of this coin, when a Palestinian militant is killed trying to detonate his suicide vest, or just opens fire on a bus full of Jews. The person who kills him/her is often awarded a medal of honor. But when Arab Israeli's do it, they are put on trial for murder of a Jew.

Now if you follow this story, you will find even more disturbing things. Like video footage, which could be used to defend these 12 people, suddenly dissapearing.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,…

Posted by Kinison http://www.holgatehawks.com on July 21, 2010 at 1:40 PM · Report this
venomlash 57
@53: Israel's only about as much a theocracy as we are here in the States. And that's way too far for either of us.
Fuck religious fundamentalists of all stripes.
Posted by venomlash on July 21, 2010 at 2:23 PM · Report this
persimmon 58
She wore a pushup bra--rape by deception! I would never consent to fucking B cups!
Posted by persimmon on July 21, 2010 at 4:47 PM · Report this
59
"Rape by deception" sounds like it should only apply to people who successfully impersonate the committed partner of the person with whom they have sex. I can't think of any other type of deception that should have the word "rape" in it.
Posted by DRF on July 21, 2010 at 5:18 PM · Report this
Kinison 60
@56

While I agree that killing someone, even if they just committed horrific crimes, is wrong and in a democratic society, it should never be tolerated...... But,

.. there have been many a Palestinian who failed to detonate his/her bomb and were lynched right on the spot and medals were handed out by the local government.
Posted by Kinison http://www.holgatehawks.com on July 21, 2010 at 6:34 PM · Report this
Sandiai 61
17
The highest rate of circumcision is among Muslims (see "prevalence" in

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcisio…). Personally, I've never known an Arab male who was not circumcised.
Posted by Sandiai on July 21, 2010 at 11:10 PM · Report this
62
Not rape, but I do like the law that would make it possible to charge him with fraud. Consensual sex is a contract, much like buying and selling something is - of course, you're a stupid fuck if you buy a $5 watch from a person who claims it's Rolex, but of course, what that person did was illegal and they should be charged with fraud.
Posted by tiare on July 22, 2010 at 4:17 AM · Report this
64
I'm an Israeli, and this case is a huge scandal in Israel as well. Our hope is that the Supreme Court will overturn this :-(

It's obvious to pretty much everyone (except for our bonehead judges) that this shouldn't be rape. However, the interesting question, in my opinion, is whether this should be fraud. My answer is an empathic NO.
Posted by Ola http://petite-lambda.livejournal.com on July 23, 2010 at 12:36 AM · Report this
65
And would an Israeli court have found this guy guilty of "rape by deception" if he was Jewish, not Palestinian, and had lied about his income or his political allegiances or his desire for a "serious relationship"?


As astonishing as it sounds, yes! The guy who pretended to be neuro-surgeon to get laid? Prison. Not "rape by deception", mind you, but he still got sentenced. I suspect that the prisons are not overloaded simply because it doesn't occur to people that they can successfully sue over such a thing (because it's so outrageously stupid).

Posted by Ola http://petite-lambda.livejournal.com on July 23, 2010 at 1:38 AM · Report this
67
"This sounds like laws against race mixing."

That's exactly what it is, and I hope the legal authorities in Israel can and will rectify this.

If you want to know where this kind of bullshit leads, google "Kip Rhinelander" and see where this kind of shameful practice led in the USA 90 years ago.

Posted by Steve8 on July 23, 2010 at 8:25 AM · Report this
68
I am suing every girl I've screwed. Your hair isn't really blonde, those aren't your eyelashes, you're wearing high heels and a push-up bra

I've been deceived!
Posted by dudeabidesthe on July 23, 2010 at 9:26 AM · Report this
NichtsBesonderes 69
I find it quite interesting on this story that an Israeli Deputy Minister (Dan Meridor) asked the question aloud would the same verdict had been handed down from the courts had it been a Jewish person claiming Arabic heritage. He did not think the court would have been so aggressive on its ruling. This is the same Deputy who has often argued against every Israeli law saying "Jewish" in the title. He is quoted with "Why does every bill need the word 'Jewish' in it – to show the Arab citizens that it doesn't belong to them? Then we're all shocked when they radicalise their stance. The majority doesn't need to remind the minority that it is in fact a minority all the time."

We have seen this ritual several times over around the world: laws that remind the minority they are in fact the minority, laws that subjugate them to a less than equal social standing, and then an outburst. I'm glad to see a timeless act is still guaranteed a production. Hopefully this one leads to a peaceful resolution.
Posted by NichtsBesonderes on July 23, 2010 at 10:01 PM · Report this
Brunobär 70
Obviously, the whole story we read was incomplete at best:

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opi…

Seems like this actually was a case of forcible rape and the "rape by deception" conviction was the result of a plea bargain. Who knew.
Posted by Brunobär on September 6, 2010 at 9:53 AM · Report this

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