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News & ArtsThursday, July 15, 2010
City It Looks Like We're Getting a Chihuly Museum
Posted by Cienna Madrid on Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 2:16 PM
This week, the bar was raised for eight projects hoping to move into the Seattle Center's Fun Forest site—raised so high that all but three proposals may be out of the game.
On July 13, the review panel charged with choosing a project sent a letter (.pdf) to the eight proposers requesting more information about the project. The panel is honing in on where the money's at: how many visitors each project expects to attract and their "financial readiness and sustainability" moving forward. The letter also points out that the chosen proposal "cannot result in a net negative budget impact to Seattle Center."
From the letter:
We recognize that for many of you, the RPF submittal schedule did not provide sufficient time to answer fully all the questions we put forward, especially those related to financing your project and the organizational structure and plans you propose for its construction and management. Our next phase of review will give you the chance to elaborate on these and other issues.
They're giving proponents two weeks to come up with financial plans. The only projects that have plans built into their proposals are the Chihuly museum (which had over a year to draft its proposal and has big money behind it), the Fun Forest Amusement Company (which already inhabits the space), and KEXP.
In essence, the panel wants to know who has lots of money to fund itself and is prepared to move forward now. And—whadduyaknow?—the Chihuly museum, bankrolled by the Space Needle and more than a year in the works, is the project that meets the bar. The committee even admits that the competitors are out of time and outgunned. But the reason this bidding war came to be was because the Chihuly museum was well-developed and funded without public input, and people were outraged when they found out. If it turns out that the only project that meets the new criteria is a predestined Chihuly museum, people should be outraged by this farce of a process.
Northwest Mystery Museum, Open Platform, FROG, and the Northwest Native Cultural Center cite potential funding sources like Parks Levy funds, Lake to Bay trail improvement funds, city subsidies, private donors, and grants. They also can't hope to compete with the Chihuly museum or KEXP as far as drawing in bodies—Chihuly projects attracting 400,000 visitors annually; KEXP will draw 100,000.
The letter ends with acknowledging that providing these answers "could entail a significant amount of additional work on your part during the two week window described above," and if that leads anyone to drop out from the process, please "stay connected," good luck with your future endeavors, etc.
After the public meeting last week, Goldy over at HorsesAss wrote:
Last night hundreds of people gathered again to voice our opinions about the best public use of the Fun Forest site at the Seattle Center, and once again we couldn’t help but get the vibe that we were just being humored. Oh, the committee and the Chihuly gift-shop/catering-hall folks at least tried to make a better show of it this time as compared to the insulting propaganda-fest of the first public meeting, but it was still just a show. I didn’t talk to anybody who believed a decision hasn’t already been made.
I didn't totally agree with Goldy last week—KEXP had a lot of public support at the meeting—but now, it looks as if he's right. The panel is angling to zone in on criteria that, increasingly, fits the mold of a Chihuly museum. Goldy is right; we are being humored.
2
This is ridiculous. The KEXP proposal has a funding plan, a very specific one. Why is it unreasonable for the committee to request more info about funding from the proposers, when this is meant to be a proposal that pays for itself? The Fun Forest paid for itself, and Seattle Center (and the City) don't have funds to throw at some random new project just because the Stranger staff have their panties in a knot about a public input process. I don't want Chihuly any more than you do, but I also don't want a proposal without a legitimate funding mechanism to be chosen.
3
"Financial readiness and sustainability" and "cannot result in a net negative budget impact to Seattle Center" seem like perfectly reasonable (and minimal) criteria to me…
5
@1 There will certainly be some whoring going on in that "museum", created specifically for the purpose of increasing the value of Chihuly collections & corresponding tax deductions for donated works.
6
You know, all this Chihuly "400,000" people talk per year... did the other Chihuly museum open their books to prove their numbers?
7
There is NO WAY that a regional craftsman who works in over-priced, over-rated twisty glass will prove to be FOUR TIMES THE DRAW that a cutting edge radio station -- that frequently hosts real, live, actual MUSIC STARS -- would be.
Holy Mother of Pearl. Dale Chihuly vs. Dead Weather. Dale Chihuly vs. Patti Smith. Dale Chihuly vs. Sonic Youth. Dale Chihuly vs. The Flaming Lips. Dale Chihuly vs. fill-in-the-blank MUSIC STAR.
NO. FUCKING. WAY glassboy would out-draw KEXP. What the hell have these people been smoking?
If they seriously try to ram this down the throat of Greater Seattle, I say it's sitting-in-front-of-the-dozer time. This is bullshit.
Holy Mother of Pearl. Dale Chihuly vs. Dead Weather. Dale Chihuly vs. Patti Smith. Dale Chihuly vs. Sonic Youth. Dale Chihuly vs. The Flaming Lips. Dale Chihuly vs. fill-in-the-blank MUSIC STAR.
NO. FUCKING. WAY glassboy would out-draw KEXP. What the hell have these people been smoking?
If they seriously try to ram this down the throat of Greater Seattle, I say it's sitting-in-front-of-the-dozer time. This is bullshit.
9
The 400,000 visitors per year figure being floated by the Chihuly people just doesn't seem plausible. That's nearly 1100 per day, more if they're not open 365 days per year. Anybody know how this attendance level compares to other arts venues such as SAM, Museum of Glass, EMP, etc? I know there are lots tourists with bad taste in art on those cruise liners, but I'm still not buying it. At least KEXP's projected attendance levels seem to be based on actual numbers from their live shows and events.
10
Good on KEXP for coming prepared with a financial plan. If this is now a three horse race, then please Jeebus part the clouds, strike down the one-eyed glass baron and the Fun Forest people and give it to KEXP.
Am I missing something, or wasn't KEXP working on their proposal in the same abbreviated time frame that the other non-Chihuly orgs had to work on theirs? If so, why couldn't the other orgs come up with financial plans in time? If the answer is that they didn't have the staff or capacity to do so, should we really have considered them serious contenders in the first place?
Am I missing something, or wasn't KEXP working on their proposal in the same abbreviated time frame that the other non-Chihuly orgs had to work on theirs? If so, why couldn't the other orgs come up with financial plans in time? If the answer is that they didn't have the staff or capacity to do so, should we really have considered them serious contenders in the first place?
11
Personally, I will NEVER go to the Chihuly museum. It literally holds anti-interest for me. I will feel less welcome and comfortable at Seattle Center because of its presence. I am sad.
12
How does the public show support for the KEXP plan other than at these meetings? If we had, say, an open vote -- even coordinate with Seattle Times, KING, etc -- that seems to be a powerful position
13
Wow. That's bullshit. As a non-Seattle resident, I promise that if I ever visit the city, I -won't- visit the Chihuly Museum.
15
I hate to say this because I badly want KEXP to go in there. But the museum people had their shit together and had an organized vision for the place before anyone else did, even if that vision sucks balls. Maybe that's part of why they're being perceived by the panel as the best option...there's less risk in something more planned and thought-out.
I do wonder where that 400,000 number comes from...to me, that's pure fantasy.
I do wonder where that 400,000 number comes from...to me, that's pure fantasy.
17
If they seriously try to ram this down the throat of Greater Seattle, I say it's sitting-in-front-of-the-dozer time.Surely, I can't be the only person who has pondered the incredible physical vulnerability of an enormous building packed full of priceless glass. Not that I'm in any way encouraging or endorsing the destruction of property, of course. But speaking practically, if they manage to ram this thing down the city's throat, they'd better set aside some serious money for metal detectors an such.
18
@7, actually, the Chihuly museum would definitely outdraw all of those artists combined, who (a) already play shows in existing commercial venues around the city when they come here and (b) typically draw one to two thousand when they do. Seems to me the KEXP plan, if implemented as you suggest, would put Neumo's, the Showbox, the Moore, the Croc, Vera project out of business. What's so great about that?
What's so great about KEXP, which appeals to about 1% of the population? Sorry, kids, but alternarock just isn't that popular. At least with crappy glass art, if you don't like it, you don't have to go look at it; it doesn't make a loud noise. If I don't like Dead Weather, I can't go anywhere near the Center if they're playing there.
Whorehouse.
What's so great about KEXP, which appeals to about 1% of the population? Sorry, kids, but alternarock just isn't that popular. At least with crappy glass art, if you don't like it, you don't have to go look at it; it doesn't make a loud noise. If I don't like Dead Weather, I can't go anywhere near the Center if they're playing there.
Whorehouse.
19
@1
+1 for whorehouse.
If the matter is finally decided, can we please move on and find another trivial matter to inflate into a war-of-good-vs-evil-that-will-decide-fate-of-mankind?
+1 for whorehouse.
If the matter is finally decided, can we please move on and find another trivial matter to inflate into a war-of-good-vs-evil-that-will-decide-fate-of-mankind?
20
Also, keep in mind folks, the "400,000 visitors" number does NOT equal "400,000 PAID admissions". They're basically copping this number from one-off Chihuly exhibitions held elsewhere around the country (where the ephemerity of the shows, along with the scarcity of other Chihuly works in the immediate geographic vicinity - something which Seattle/Tacoma already has an overabundance of - drove attendance figures), as well as probably cribbing a bit based on EMP/SFM's 500,000 admissions from 2009, many (perhaps even a majority) of which were either to free or reduced-price events, not to mention the Wright's own estimates of approximately 1,000,000 visitors per year to the Space Needle (although again, it's questionable whether anywhere near that number actually pay admission for riding the elevators, although it probably does include a sizable number who at least make it as far as the ground-level gift shop.)
I predict, if this gets shoved down the public's throat against their collective will, SOME entrepreneurial-type will make a tidy sum selling these babies near the entrance.
I predict, if this gets shoved down the public's throat against their collective will, SOME entrepreneurial-type will make a tidy sum selling these babies near the entrance.
22
There is precedence for news orgs to partner. Stranger takes the lead: Cienna/Eli et al, Goldy + Dave Boardman at the Times, Mark Ginther at KING, etc?
24
I guess I'm resigned to it being a not terrible venue for charitable events and such, which I'm sure will become it's primary function (at very reasonable cost) once that 400k figure fails to materialize.
26
The Sir Mix-A-Lot Museum of Big Butts is still sadly the best idea I've heard yet.
Ass, not glass!
I'd rather have the place be a big open lawn than a boring-as-hell glass museum. I nearly fell asleep in the middle of the one in Tacoma.
Ass, not glass!
I'd rather have the place be a big open lawn than a boring-as-hell glass museum. I nearly fell asleep in the middle of the one in Tacoma.
27
@24, come on, Kesh, look on the bright side! We get to make merciless fun of the fucking thing! And I think Comte's suggestion of damaging the artworks with pocket torch is an excellent one. Even Will in Seattle's idea involving stray baseballs sounds good. And when it grossly underperforms, and the gape-mouthed waddling tourists stop coming, it'll be just another sad, stupid waste of time at the Center, like all the others.
If we're really lucky, Chihuly himself will choke to death on a canape at the opening.
If we're really lucky, Chihuly himself will choke to death on a canape at the opening.
30
Sorry, but the KEXP idea sounds about as ill-conceived and boring as the Chihuly museum. Whoever said it would attract acts like The Flaming Lips or Sonic Youth is smoking crack. Those are stadium/major festival acts. They would only be there as part of Bumbershoot, and that's assuming that the KEXP project would have de facto involvement with that event (Which is entirely reasonable to assume). But then, that only happens for 3 days out of the year anyway. For the KEXP project to be worthwhile and subsidize the regular small-scale workshops, open-mics, etc., they would have to attract, on at least a bi-weekly basis, national acts that wouldn't already be playing a) White River (yeah right) b) Key Arena (doubtful) c) the Showboxen d) Paramount e) Moore e) Neumos f) Croc g) El Corazon h) ???. And yeah, all of those venues would have a hell of a problem with KEXP poaching those acts into their own venue. KEXP doesn't have /that/ much goodwill built up around here.
31
GET OFF MY LAWN, FNARF.
i have my own comprehensive plan. it involves doing exactly what kexp is planning to do, but keeping the lazer tag.
kexp actually tries far more than any other station that started/is a "college" station to diversify its lineup--and keep itself pretty universally listenable. the chihuly museum will have a appeal for like three seconds before everyone decides, oh, i'll just go down to tacoma instead and it will be a gigantic money hemorrhage of upkeep. you know, like the fun forest, but going into the red a lot faster, and without the fun.
i have my own comprehensive plan. it involves doing exactly what kexp is planning to do, but keeping the lazer tag.
kexp actually tries far more than any other station that started/is a "college" station to diversify its lineup--and keep itself pretty universally listenable. the chihuly museum will have a appeal for like three seconds before everyone decides, oh, i'll just go down to tacoma instead and it will be a gigantic money hemorrhage of upkeep. you know, like the fun forest, but going into the red a lot faster, and without the fun.
32
@31, so everyone in Seattle is a college student? Is that it? Or are you saying that if you're not a college student, nobody gives a shit about you, and you're not welcome at Seattle Center? Is that it? I can't tell.
33
God fuck the Chihuly Museum. You can't take a piss with out hitting a Chihuly these days anyway. Oh and there is already one JUST 30 MINUTES SOUTH. This idea can suck my female pretend nuts.
34
I admit I'm not thrilled about the Chihuly Museum idea. To be honest, though, I fail to see what's so great about putting KEXP there, either; I've walked past their current place and it's just an office building. Is that really what we want? An office building parked in the middle of Seattle Center?
Hell, though, neither idea can possibly be as ugly or ill-conceived as EMP.
Hell, though, neither idea can possibly be as ugly or ill-conceived as EMP.
35
@34, an office building subsidized by the city (because they'd be paying below market rates). They really should just build an office tower there. 100 stories. Heh.
36
@33: I don't think we can rule out that this is yet another attempt to say "screw you" to Tacoma by building a better version of something they already have.
37
I have a financial plan:
Kill the Billionaires Tunnel and use 0.1 percent of the money we save from Seattle taxpayers to fund anything but that Chihulhy monstrosity.
Kill the Billionaires Tunnel and use 0.1 percent of the money we save from Seattle taxpayers to fund anything but that Chihulhy monstrosity.
38
@ 30 - "Whoever said it would attract acts like The Flaming Lips or Sonic Youth is smoking crack. Those are stadium/major festival acts."
Heh. Those are two of the many, many acts who have stopped by the KEXP station when they were in town. They played some songs live on the air, & they recorded some tracks for the KEXP compilation discs. I mentioned them in my post as EXAMPLES of the kinds of acts that already come here and already interact w/KEXP. If the station had a bigger performing space, maybe they could expand that program, and maybe, just maybe, more people would be interested in checking out acts like these than would be interested in seeing over-rated swirly glass.
Thanks for playing.
Heh. Those are two of the many, many acts who have stopped by the KEXP station when they were in town. They played some songs live on the air, & they recorded some tracks for the KEXP compilation discs. I mentioned them in my post as EXAMPLES of the kinds of acts that already come here and already interact w/KEXP. If the station had a bigger performing space, maybe they could expand that program, and maybe, just maybe, more people would be interested in checking out acts like these than would be interested in seeing over-rated swirly glass.
Thanks for playing.
39
Never any doubt in my mind that the Chihuly proposal was going to be picked. There's a lot of money behind it and money almost always gets its way.
While I'd prefer open space, as envisioned in the Master Plan, or the KEXP proposal, I also don't have the visceral hatred for the Chihuly proposal (or him or his glass) that most Sloggers seem to so if (or when) it's built I'm not planning to firebomb it. Unlike the Chihuly haters, I believe there are a lot of locals who'd actually prefer it, locals who aren't connected with Chihuly or the Wrights. I was at the last meeting at the Center House and there were a lot of people speaking in favor of Chihuly. Were they all paid or planted by the Wrights? Maybe. Who knows? But I doubt it.
I had a great talk with a lone guy at one of the proposal tables who, like me, prefers open space. He pointed out that the Chihuly proposal (and, for that matter, the KEXP proposal as well) runs counter to the Master Plan because the Master Plan didn't have the horrid Fun Forest Pavilion in it. But apparently, the need for a proposal to bring in the most money now trumps what's in the Master Plan.
While I'd prefer open space, as envisioned in the Master Plan, or the KEXP proposal, I also don't have the visceral hatred for the Chihuly proposal (or him or his glass) that most Sloggers seem to so if (or when) it's built I'm not planning to firebomb it. Unlike the Chihuly haters, I believe there are a lot of locals who'd actually prefer it, locals who aren't connected with Chihuly or the Wrights. I was at the last meeting at the Center House and there were a lot of people speaking in favor of Chihuly. Were they all paid or planted by the Wrights? Maybe. Who knows? But I doubt it.
I had a great talk with a lone guy at one of the proposal tables who, like me, prefers open space. He pointed out that the Chihuly proposal (and, for that matter, the KEXP proposal as well) runs counter to the Master Plan because the Master Plan didn't have the horrid Fun Forest Pavilion in it. But apparently, the need for a proposal to bring in the most money now trumps what's in the Master Plan.
40
18/fnarf: What's so great about KEXP, which appeals to about 1% of the population? Sorry, kids, but alternarock just isn't that popular.
I like KEXP but I'm certainly not as crazy about it as KEXPnuts are. I think it's fairly common for people who are crazy about something to assume that everyone else likes it (or should like it) too.
I like KEXP but I'm certainly not as crazy about it as KEXPnuts are. I think it's fairly common for people who are crazy about something to assume that everyone else likes it (or should like it) too.
41
This is very sad. I went over to KEXP early this year and talked to them about putting this project together. It's heartbreaking to see it come so close and get pulled away. I wish there was something I could do to help. You know, besides never going to the glass museum which is what I was planning on anyway.
42
This plan and the viaduct navel-gazing is what makes me sad. Where are the urban planners? Screw the tourists and make something residents will use/enjoy more than once (if ever). I'd love a functioning city square of some sort but the Center is poorly placed for that. I say just make it the worlds biggest urban dog park and call it a day.
43
Chihuly's art seems like it belongs in a corporate lobby in Bellevue. But since I'm not out there with a better proposal, I guess I can't complain. I'd prefer something public and not dedicated to one person.
44
@38: Yes, I am aware that those and many other artists have stopped by and performed at KEXP or otherwise contributed to the station. But that usually isn't the main reason for stopping by. Either they are promoting and playing a show at a larger venue in Seattle, or perhaps are between other stops on a tour leg. Of course it's always good to have more involvement and avenues for exposure to music. I don't disagree with your sentiment in that regard, but to earn consistently decent revenues, the KEXP space would have to be putting on major shows on a regular basis, not some nice little 3-or-4-song sets on a Thursday afternoon. As I said before though, it would seem that to accomplish this, the space would almost have to become a direct competitor for the other venues that draw national acts in the area. As Fnarf said, as valuable a service KEXP does provide to the music community, it is nowhere near as wide-reaching or popular as its (commendably) vocal advocates like to think. It is precisely as narrow-ranged in public appeal as a Chihuly museum (which I also think will be a dumb waste of space) and just as fuzzy about the revenue and visitors it could draw in.
45
get over it seattle and own it. dale chihuly, like it or not will outlive the dead winters as an artist and he has crapped a fantastic artglass bubble in your own front yard. now shut up and own it.
46
Knute Berger, writing at Crosscut...
On the downside, the plan for the museum comes with all the classic civic bumbling, which is why we all should fear for what happens to the waterfront after the Alaskan Way Viaduct. The hodgepodge at the Center, the fiasco of Westlake, the dreadful freeway-spanning State Convention Center, the Green Line debacle, the Kingdome, South Lake Union: Seattle makes grand plans, then undercuts them when they prove tough to execute and a short-cut is offered by a local millionaire.
The Seattle Center Master Plan identified the Chihuly spot as "open space." Now we know what the master plan is worth: rich paying tenants will trump any plan, public process be damned. Personally, I'm not persuaded that turning Seattle Center into a Central Park is a good idea, but I can understand why open space advocates are angry.
47
Just to be cleat that i have my concentric circles of bureaucracy in order, the review panel makes a decision, which needs to be approved by Seattle Center, which then has to be approved by the Mayor? Is this correct?
And regardless of what anyone thinks of the artistic merits or popularity of a glass museum or eclectic music, this comes down to money. The museum will generate more revenue for the city, but is not free to the public. The radio station is free, but does not generate any revenue. I have a feeling the city is going to side with the revenue.
And regardless of what anyone thinks of the artistic merits or popularity of a glass museum or eclectic music, this comes down to money. The museum will generate more revenue for the city, but is not free to the public. The radio station is free, but does not generate any revenue. I have a feeling the city is going to side with the revenue.
48
And what is wrong with the Northwest Mystery Museum? It has a stage, green space, Native American history, will engage a wide range of ages AND it will generate revenue. Not likely as much as Chihuly boasts but a respective amount.
In the long run, it will still be interesting while Chihuly turns to glass dust.
In the long run, it will still be interesting while Chihuly turns to glass dust.
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