Slog
News & ArtsMonday, July 5, 2010
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: Don't Wait For Me
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Jul 5, 2010 at 5:07 PM
My ex-girlfriend and I were together about ten years ago—we dated for about three years—and remained good friends after the relationship ended. (We are both women.) We had been through a lot together, and I considered her my best and closest friend. Around April of last year, I had begun to develop feelings for her again. We ended up sleeping together about a month after that and I told her how I felt about her. She said she felt the same way towards me. Unfortunately, she said she wasn't ready to date anyone at the time, so I decided to stick it out and wait until she was ready for a relationship. I told her as much, and made it clear that I was intent on sticking around until she decided she was ready.All I asked from her was that she was up front and honest with me about her feelings for me, and that if her feelings happened to change at any time, she would tell me. She agreed that she would and I trusted her.
This was in May of last year. Fast forward to last June, when I found out that she was seeing my brother, with whom I was extremely close. Neither one of them had bothered to tell me what was going on, and they had secretly been keeping in touch for two years. Mind you, I had to find out all of this information on my own; these two never gave me the courtesy of the truth, even after I found out about their relationship. I'm pissed because I was duped by two people whom I never thought would take me for granted and lie straight to my face, again and again.
To add insult to injury, my brother thinks there's nothing wrong with the fact that he's dating his little sister's ex (who also happened to be someone I still had feelings for) and she obviously has no problem with sleeping with me and then with my brother. I think it's wrong; my brother should not think it's okay to date my ex, and neither should she, no matter how long ago the relationship was. To me, a brother's or sister's ex (and an ex's brother or sister) is off limits.
So I'm wondering: am I overreacting in feeling that a romantic relationship between my brother and my ex-girlfriend is totally gross, or am I right to expect that both of them would respect that there is an implied boundary that comes with an ex-lover and a sibling?
Feeling Used, Betrayed And Repulsed
My response after the jump...
••••••••
Sex can be a messy business, Cupid can be a total cunt, and sometimes our feelings for someone are so strong that we feel compelled to break rules and stomp across boundaries—and you know what? Other people's rules and other people's implied boundaries are the easiest for us to break, stomp, violate, etc.
I hear you, FUBAR, and I basically agree with you: you would never date the ex of a sibling or the sibling of an ex, FUBAR, and neither would I. But your brother and your ex aren't you and they aren't me. She's her and he's him and they're obviously willing to date people you and I aren't. Sometimes it feels like other people are free to make their own rules, choices, mistakes, determine their own boundaries, etc., so long as they're not breaking any laws, because... other people are free to make their owns rules, mistakes, choices, etc.
As for why they kept the news from you for so long, well... maybe it's just this one letter... and maybe it was a poor choice of words... and maybe you don't always come across this way... but in this particular letter you come across as just a bit intense/controlling/thick.
I'm thinking maybe your ex was afraid to tell you the truth.
Here's why I think that could the case: when you informed your ex that you had feelings for her, FUBAR, she brushed you off in the most obvious and transparent way possible: "...she said she wasn't ready to date anyone at the time."
Anyone old enough to have broken up with someone a decade ago—or seven years ago (the chronology is a little unclear)—should have been able to recognize that line for what it was: the little white lie the dumper tells the dumpee to spare the dumpee's feelings. It's meant to soften the blow, FUBAR, not prevent you from feeling the blow. But what did you do? Did you take that universally-recognized "no" for an answer bow out gracefully? No, FUBAR, you did not. You went all Les Parapluies de Cherbourg on her ass, i.e., "If it takes forever, I will wait for you, for a thousand summers," blah blah blah. Or as you wrote: "I made it clear that I was intent on sticking around until she decided she was ready."
WRONG.
She had just told you not to wait for her, FUBAR, and that she would never be ready—that's what "I'm not ready for a relationship right now" means, FUBAR, that's the only thing that expression ever means. When you made it clear that you weren't going to take "no" for an answer—when you made it clear you weren't willing to take "I'm not ready for a relationship right now" for an answer—your ex should've come out with it: "I'm sorry, please don't wait, not even for one summer, because I'm really not interested in getting back together—in fact, I'm actually seeing someone else... someone I think you know..."
Your ex can be faulted for failing to come clean; your brother can be faulted for hiding the romance. But look to your own actions, FUBAR: are you a little bit intimidating? Or are you just dense? Did you give them cause to hide this affair from you? Were they thinking it might be better to wait because, hey, if their relationship fizzled after a few weeks—like most relationships do—they could pretend it never happened and avoid a lot of drama?
And while you think about those questions, FUBAR, please enjoy this clip from Les Parapluies de Cherbourg.
1
That's my second-favorite movie, after his "Les Demoiselles de Rochefort". Demy + Deneuve + technicolor = magic.
3
Am I mistaken in thinking her friend was fucking FUBAR and her brother at the same time without telling one or both of them? If so, that truly is problematic.
4
Wow, you could really sit through a whole movie that contains that clip? Wow. Musicals don't really weather the subtitle thing well.
5
Agreed that Demoiselles is better in every way (just thinking of it makes me giggle), but damn, THIS is a tune that's managed to haunt me all my life. The chorus pops into my head whenever it decides it's needed.
6
I just don't think a woman, or a man, should be sleeping with one sibling while dating the other. And I think your brother should have discussed dating her with you- and that might have kept you from sleeping with her again. They were both wrong, but you also missed the obvious message. Sucks, but it is what it is. All you can do is let it go, and maybe hope your brother catches something from her.
7
FUBR,
Next time you see little bro, just say, "I'm glad the sex is really good with you. I taught her everything she knows." The relationship should end quite quickly.
Oh, and don't have any further contact with her. None. Nada. Zippo. Go mend your heart and find somebody else.
Next time you see little bro, just say, "I'm glad the sex is really good with you. I taught her everything she knows." The relationship should end quite quickly.
Oh, and don't have any further contact with her. None. Nada. Zippo. Go mend your heart and find somebody else.
9
sounds like she wants the letter writer ... plus a dick!
Abstract yes ... but ... maybe that's the point.
Abstract yes ... but ... maybe that's the point.
10
Back in the day we just called it the Umbrellas of Cherbourg not "Les Parapluies de Cherburg" (sic). It is one of the greatest movies ever. Fnarf is often correct, but he's mistaken that The Young Girls of Rochefort is better.
Lola is also required viewing, totally unlike Umbrellas but you find out why that one dood feels a certain way.
Lola is also required viewing, totally unlike Umbrellas but you find out why that one dood feels a certain way.
12
Totally agree with the analysis Dan - FUBAR was clearly dumped and her ex has every right to date anyone else. But FUBAR's brother broke an unpardonable rule of singledom - thou shalt not date a friend's ex. And to be clear, by "a friend's ex," I don't mean any person a friend or family member has dated, but rather, any person who the friend or family member was in a serious relationship with. At minimum, the brother should have gotten the okay beforehand. As such, being pissed at the brother is perfectly legit. Unfortunately, that's about all she can do.
13
@4
Wow, you don't know what you're talking about. The Umbrellas of Cherburg is in a class all by itself. No matter what one thinks of it, for any admirer of cinema it is required viewing.
@FUBAR
Even if Dan is wrong and you're a very pleasant, easy-going person, his advice should still be heeded. Run away from your ex, your brother, the whole situation. It's not going to happen w/ her, and the sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll get through the pain. Unless, of course, you're like Stephin Merrit & like that sort of pain. 'I don't want to get over you....'
Wow, you don't know what you're talking about. The Umbrellas of Cherburg is in a class all by itself. No matter what one thinks of it, for any admirer of cinema it is required viewing.
@FUBAR
Even if Dan is wrong and you're a very pleasant, easy-going person, his advice should still be heeded. Run away from your ex, your brother, the whole situation. It's not going to happen w/ her, and the sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll get through the pain. Unless, of course, you're like Stephin Merrit & like that sort of pain. 'I don't want to get over you....'
16
@10, I didn't say it was better. I'm not interested in whether it's better or not. I said I liked it more. Which I do. Which is the only criterion that matters.
17
fnarf and i are charter members of societe des amies de jacques demy. donkey skin is sweet, if a bit anachronistic, and i LOVE both parapluies de cherbourg and demoiselles de rochefort. the pied piper with Donovan; not so good.
18
Stinkbug and Fnarf, my bad - I mischaracterized Fnarf (as usual) when I wrote "agreed that Demoiselles is better". My sad tendency to misrepresent my own favorites as objectively better is one of my worst rhetorical bombasts. I'll try to be more careful.
19
Good one, Dan.
A red flag for me was when she said "I had to find this out on my own" but doesn't specify how. Either she found out by accident, someone else told her, or she went snooping through someone's privacy because she suspected something was up.
The first two possibilities are ones that anyone broadcasting this much indignance would probably share to play up the 'victim' angle. The third, though... well, the third is something you neglect to mention in your letter if you're worried Dan might see through your bullshit.
(Note that this is pure speculation on my part)
A red flag for me was when she said "I had to find this out on my own" but doesn't specify how. Either she found out by accident, someone else told her, or she went snooping through someone's privacy because she suspected something was up.
The first two possibilities are ones that anyone broadcasting this much indignance would probably share to play up the 'victim' angle. The third, though... well, the third is something you neglect to mention in your letter if you're worried Dan might see through your bullshit.
(Note that this is pure speculation on my part)
20
I think the usual reason why exes and family members are mutually off-limits is that you generally can't divorce your brother. When an ex dates back into the family, they become part of the family, meaning you can't get away from them. (Specifically, away from the drama surrounding the breakup. In this case the drama is that Letter Writer still wants the ex, and can't have her because she is with Brother.)
22
I rather agree with #20. It sounds kind of like everyone involved was a terrible person to each other.
What the brother and the ex should have realized is that these things will eventually come out. Once the brother & ex realized that things were getting serious between them, they should have realized they owed FUBAR an honest explanation - hopefully timed so that she can get over the shock and hurt by the next family holiday. And I think she has a right to be shocked and hurt - the woman she's had a thing for isn't interested in her, is dating someone else, who she'll likely have to encounter at family gatherings.
But FUBAR's feelings of shock and hurt, I don't think, preclude the brother & ex from getting together. I think FUBAR is owed an apology not for the actual relationship, but for the manner in which she found out about it (even if she *was* snooping - sometimes we have to give those kinds of apologies to our family in order to preserve the peace).
What the brother and the ex should have realized is that these things will eventually come out. Once the brother & ex realized that things were getting serious between them, they should have realized they owed FUBAR an honest explanation - hopefully timed so that she can get over the shock and hurt by the next family holiday. And I think she has a right to be shocked and hurt - the woman she's had a thing for isn't interested in her, is dating someone else, who she'll likely have to encounter at family gatherings.
But FUBAR's feelings of shock and hurt, I don't think, preclude the brother & ex from getting together. I think FUBAR is owed an apology not for the actual relationship, but for the manner in which she found out about it (even if she *was* snooping - sometimes we have to give those kinds of apologies to our family in order to preserve the peace).
23
I'm not sure if the letter writer is dense, thick... or if she's like me and just believes that people mean what they say and say what they mean (a trait of mine that I'd like to exterminate, it causes me more hurt then I'm ever willing to admit). Perhaps, her offense is trusting her ex's words to be honest, trustworthy. Maybe, her guilt lies in believing her ex to be honest. Whatever the truth is in this situation, I find it sad.
That said, wonderful clip.
That said, wonderful clip.
24
Kim @ 23: Good point. Sucks to be honest and trusting, sometimes.
Dan, I'd like to see a column about those "little lies" we tell each other to spare our own feelings.
Dan, I'd like to see a column about those "little lies" we tell each other to spare our own feelings.
25
Yes, you are overreacting in some ways.
-- "Used" is an overreaction. How exactly did they "use" you? It's more like they failed to take you into account at all.
-- "Betrayed" is an overreaction. You two have not been an item for six (nine?) years. You lost the right to dictate her sexual activities when the relationship ended. She's been a free agent for the better part of a decade. It's long since time to get over feeling proprietary. Also, she did as she promised, which was to let you know if she was ever ready to pick up a relationship with you again, which she never was. It's not her fault you failed to recognize that "I'll let you know when I'm interested" really means "I'm not interested."
-- "Repulsed" is an overreaction. Your Ex isn't related to you. Her fucking your brother is not the same as her fucking you. If anything, your problem with her is that you are now officially on the outside of her boundary of intimacy. So get over the incest thing, it's irrational.
There are ways in which your reaction is legitimate:
-- They have been inconsiderate of your feelings. This is not to say that your feelings trump everything else, but there is room in this world both for them to do as they wish and for you to feel hurt by their choices.
-- It must have been a very unpleasant way to dash your hopes, unrealistic as they were. They should have come clean sooner. On the other hand, they knew you would be hurt when you found out, so there was no avoiding hurting you.
-- You will have to deal with them at family gatherings, which means managing your feelings towards her, an unpleasant prospect in the moment of your shock and hurt.
Be that all as it may, if their relationship is successful, you will have to figure out how to relate to them as a couple and as part of the family. The alternative is to end up very, very alone and bitter.
More...
-- "Used" is an overreaction. How exactly did they "use" you? It's more like they failed to take you into account at all.
-- "Betrayed" is an overreaction. You two have not been an item for six (nine?) years. You lost the right to dictate her sexual activities when the relationship ended. She's been a free agent for the better part of a decade. It's long since time to get over feeling proprietary. Also, she did as she promised, which was to let you know if she was ever ready to pick up a relationship with you again, which she never was. It's not her fault you failed to recognize that "I'll let you know when I'm interested" really means "I'm not interested."
-- "Repulsed" is an overreaction. Your Ex isn't related to you. Her fucking your brother is not the same as her fucking you. If anything, your problem with her is that you are now officially on the outside of her boundary of intimacy. So get over the incest thing, it's irrational.
There are ways in which your reaction is legitimate:
-- They have been inconsiderate of your feelings. This is not to say that your feelings trump everything else, but there is room in this world both for them to do as they wish and for you to feel hurt by their choices.
-- It must have been a very unpleasant way to dash your hopes, unrealistic as they were. They should have come clean sooner. On the other hand, they knew you would be hurt when you found out, so there was no avoiding hurting you.
-- You will have to deal with them at family gatherings, which means managing your feelings towards her, an unpleasant prospect in the moment of your shock and hurt.
Be that all as it may, if their relationship is successful, you will have to figure out how to relate to them as a couple and as part of the family. The alternative is to end up very, very alone and bitter.
26
btw, I think this clip is from the original DVD release. the subtitles were done better in the newer release.
Wasn't the updated (stage) version of Les Demoiselles de Rochefort slogged about in the past? Here's an example of a newer version one of the songs, it's a travesty:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0d3Sq_NDc…
Wasn't the updated (stage) version of Les Demoiselles de Rochefort slogged about in the past? Here's an example of a newer version one of the songs, it's a travesty:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0d3Sq_NDc…
27
Her strategy of getting the girl back was not very smart, that's for sure. I-will-wait-for-you-no-matter-how-long-it-takes is a huge buzz kill coming from the mouth of someone who you are NOT attracted to. In fact, it's a recipe for being screened out and deleted from the inbox. What she should have done was WALK and tell the chick it was her loss. If there was any hope that girlfriend was coming back, it would have been then. Fucking the brother is a low blow (har har) so it sounds like girlfriend is pretty much a piece 'o shit, so it's not really a big loss that she's gone.
28
Fucking an ex, then fucking the ex's sibling a month later when you knew the ex still has feelings for you, is a fucked-up douche move in any book. People aren't incapable of controlling their sexual urges, Dan. They can be held accountable for their dick moves.
Every time I've seen something like this happen, the ex has been a narcissistic bitch - and they've always required the sibling to keep it a secret from the original lover. Dan, I think you were too quick to come down on the OP. She could just be shellshocked after being betrayed.
Every time I've seen something like this happen, the ex has been a narcissistic bitch - and they've always required the sibling to keep it a secret from the original lover. Dan, I think you were too quick to come down on the OP. She could just be shellshocked after being betrayed.
29
Wow, that little snippet of Les Parapluies sent me right back to my teenage years in the 1960's when it was the most romantic movie ever. Seems like it still is. I think I'll order it from Netflix. That song never leaves you...
30
I'm with @28 here. Sleeping with the sister and brother at the same time when you're hiding it from one of them is creepy. I re-read the letter and it sounds like the ex was already sleeping w/the brother when she got together w/the sister for that "final" time? So she's already cheating on the brother?
Man, I'd run away from that one. Avoid family gatherings if the ex is there, and if anyone asks why, say so!
And no, "I'm not interested in a relationship right now" isn't *always* a lie. It sometimes is, sometimes isn't. Like "I love you."
Man, I'd run away from that one. Avoid family gatherings if the ex is there, and if anyone asks why, say so!
And no, "I'm not interested in a relationship right now" isn't *always* a lie. It sometimes is, sometimes isn't. Like "I love you."
31
@28,
May 2009
June 2010
Is it still a "douche move" when it's over a year later?
This was in May of last year
May 2009
Fast forward to last June
June 2010
Is it still a "douche move" when it's over a year later?
32
You dated her ten years ago. Get over it, idiot. The whole world can date her now, including your brother.
33
@25 thank you for translating in excellent english my opinion on this matter.
Les demoiselles de Rochefort, Les parapluis de Cherbourg et Peau d'Ane (donkey skin) are few examples of the European and in particular the french cinema at his best. The other stellar french film would be "un homme et une femme" ( by Claude Lelouch).
Les demoiselles de Rochefort, Les parapluis de Cherbourg et Peau d'Ane (donkey skin) are few examples of the European and in particular the french cinema at his best. The other stellar french film would be "un homme et une femme" ( by Claude Lelouch).
34
I loved the clip of Les Parapluies de Cherbourg. The weird gliding on the bike near the end confused me a bit. You know, they looked like two vampires gliding across the cobblestones, with a bike in tow for some reason (I'm pretty sure vampires glide without moving their feet-you know what I'm talking about). Ahhh, drugs.
Also, FUBAR is a bit stalkerish. Her ex told her that if her feelings happened to change at any time, she would let her know. That's really all she agreed to. Well, her feelings didn't change toward FUBAR, so that should have been the clue to gracefully exit the situation.
Also, FUBAR is a bit stalkerish. Her ex told her that if her feelings happened to change at any time, she would let her know. That's really all she agreed to. Well, her feelings didn't change toward FUBAR, so that should have been the clue to gracefully exit the situation.
35
I told her how I felt about her. She said she felt the same way towards me.
Did everyone miss this? If the ex was really trying to be diplomatic, she should never have said such a thing. I think Dan was way too harsh in his response. Her ex is a shit, her brother's a shit, and she has a right to be shocked and angry. The only thing she should have done differently is not agree to wait for her ex to be ready, thereby making herself look like a total pushover. Maybe both have a history of taking advantage of her trusting nature?
Did everyone miss this? If the ex was really trying to be diplomatic, she should never have said such a thing. I think Dan was way too harsh in his response. Her ex is a shit, her brother's a shit, and she has a right to be shocked and angry. The only thing she should have done differently is not agree to wait for her ex to be ready, thereby making herself look like a total pushover. Maybe both have a history of taking advantage of her trusting nature?
36
I think you were waaaay too hard on this woman Dan. Her ex severely missrepresented her feelings and outright lied:
1. I feel the same way about you.
2. I'm not ready to date anyone yet (other than your own brother)
3. I swear I'll be honest to you about how I feel.
It sounds like FUBAR made it abundantly clear that what she felt was serious and her ex, knowing this, left her with all the wrong impressions. I don't neccesarily think its wrong to date an ex's sibling if the relationship was a long time ago, however you're right that this falls into the different rules for different people category. HOWEVER I think its a huge douche move to date the sibling of someone who has openly declared feelings for you, who you've told you felt the same way and who you assured your not ready to date yet.
FUBAR, this woman is not worth your affections, unfortunately. Even if you are charitable and think that she lied her way into a corner in an incredibly inept attempt to spare your feelings, this shows a lack of emotional maturity that a serious relationship requires. As for your brother, wait and see. IF he knew you had slept with her again and had feelings AND she had told you she returns them, then it was a dick move. But maybe she misrepresented the situation to him, as well.
1. I feel the same way about you.
2. I'm not ready to date anyone yet (other than your own brother)
3. I swear I'll be honest to you about how I feel.
It sounds like FUBAR made it abundantly clear that what she felt was serious and her ex, knowing this, left her with all the wrong impressions. I don't neccesarily think its wrong to date an ex's sibling if the relationship was a long time ago, however you're right that this falls into the different rules for different people category. HOWEVER I think its a huge douche move to date the sibling of someone who has openly declared feelings for you, who you've told you felt the same way and who you assured your not ready to date yet.
FUBAR, this woman is not worth your affections, unfortunately. Even if you are charitable and think that she lied her way into a corner in an incredibly inept attempt to spare your feelings, this shows a lack of emotional maturity that a serious relationship requires. As for your brother, wait and see. IF he knew you had slept with her again and had feelings AND she had told you she returns them, then it was a dick move. But maybe she misrepresented the situation to him, as well.
37
Now she wants to ruin a relationship with both her ex and her brother?!? She needs to reverse course and be happy for them!
38
You know, I'm sympathetic to the fact that Dan likes to cut right through the bullshit of phrases like "I'm not ready to date someone right now" and inform his readers that they are obviously a nicer way of saying "I don't want to date you". People should in fact know this and assume that those phrases are a brush-off.
However, the people who try to let their partners down gently with a, "I'm just not ready for a relationship" have some responsibility to communicate effectively, don't they? If someone responds with, "Well then I'll wait", it seems to me that that should be a giant, flashing red sign to say something a little more obvious/harsh/whatever. Leaving the LW with the impression that there might be something to wait for was totally avoidable and the ex shouldn't be let off the hook for it. It's selfish to avoid conflict to the point where you're basically lying to someone, even if you think your little white lie ought to have been transparent enough to be seen through. And the ex was old enough to ovary up and say, "Listen, that's sweet of you, but don't wait for me. You need to get on with your life."
As for the whole brother-fucking thing... total bitch move imho. There may be an excuse for fucking your sister's ex or fucking your ex's brother, but keeping it secret is completely insane. LW has got to give up her grudge against her brother for dating this woman, but she also should gently tell him how much she values being part of his life and hearing the plain, honest truth from him. The best course of action is to go from "Used, Betrayed And Repulsed" to disappointed. Wait and see what happens with this relationship, because it sounds like the brother might get burned just as badly by the apparently immature, double-talking ex.
However, the people who try to let their partners down gently with a, "I'm just not ready for a relationship" have some responsibility to communicate effectively, don't they? If someone responds with, "Well then I'll wait", it seems to me that that should be a giant, flashing red sign to say something a little more obvious/harsh/whatever. Leaving the LW with the impression that there might be something to wait for was totally avoidable and the ex shouldn't be let off the hook for it. It's selfish to avoid conflict to the point where you're basically lying to someone, even if you think your little white lie ought to have been transparent enough to be seen through. And the ex was old enough to ovary up and say, "Listen, that's sweet of you, but don't wait for me. You need to get on with your life."
As for the whole brother-fucking thing... total bitch move imho. There may be an excuse for fucking your sister's ex or fucking your ex's brother, but keeping it secret is completely insane. LW has got to give up her grudge against her brother for dating this woman, but she also should gently tell him how much she values being part of his life and hearing the plain, honest truth from him. The best course of action is to go from "Used, Betrayed And Repulsed" to disappointed. Wait and see what happens with this relationship, because it sounds like the brother might get burned just as badly by the apparently immature, double-talking ex.
40
Sorry, but this whole "you assumed someone was being honest when they weren't? that was stupid!" thing? Is bullshit.
Alright, look. I'm not saying white lies don't have their place in society. You meet someone, you date them for a few weeks, you like them okay but you're not feeling the relationship, you want to let them down easy. In that situation "I'm not ready for a relationship" is a face-saver. Your ex knows that they have been quietly dumped, they hopefully don't infer that it was because they're a terrible person, everyone's a winner. Fine. Good.
FUBAR, however, was not in that situation. She slept with someone she is close to (regardless of any previous romantic history being very close friends for ten years IS A BIG DEAL), confessed her feelings, and "She said she felt the same way towards me. Unfortunately, she said she wasn't ready to date anyone at the time".
After that long, if they've been through that much and they're that close, FUBAR could reasonably have expected that her being honest about her feelings might have been returned in kind.
And if it wasn't - if her decision to wait around was not well received by the ex - then it's not like there wasn't a chance to back out. She made her stance abundantly clear. If the ex had knowingly lied at the point when they slept together, then the conversation starting "I have decided to wait until you're ready to be with me" was her cue to go "Look, I know what I said, but I will never want to date you again. Don't wait around". The ex did not do this. She agreed to have FUBAR wait for her and, ironically, promised to be honest about her feelings.
That FUBAR decided to proceed with information that she was given and that information turned out to be false is unfortunate, but not her fault.
I'm not saying FUBAR was wise to wait; I rarely think waiting around for someone is a good idea. But telling her that it's her fault because she had the bad manners to accept what was being said to her as the truth is both illogical and harsh. Not everybody lies all the time, not everybody is going to spot a lie every time they hear one, and sometimes a "white lie" to let someone down easy is just plain not okay.
More...
Alright, look. I'm not saying white lies don't have their place in society. You meet someone, you date them for a few weeks, you like them okay but you're not feeling the relationship, you want to let them down easy. In that situation "I'm not ready for a relationship" is a face-saver. Your ex knows that they have been quietly dumped, they hopefully don't infer that it was because they're a terrible person, everyone's a winner. Fine. Good.
FUBAR, however, was not in that situation. She slept with someone she is close to (regardless of any previous romantic history being very close friends for ten years IS A BIG DEAL), confessed her feelings, and "She said she felt the same way towards me. Unfortunately, she said she wasn't ready to date anyone at the time".
After that long, if they've been through that much and they're that close, FUBAR could reasonably have expected that her being honest about her feelings might have been returned in kind.
And if it wasn't - if her decision to wait around was not well received by the ex - then it's not like there wasn't a chance to back out. She made her stance abundantly clear. If the ex had knowingly lied at the point when they slept together, then the conversation starting "I have decided to wait until you're ready to be with me" was her cue to go "Look, I know what I said, but I will never want to date you again. Don't wait around". The ex did not do this. She agreed to have FUBAR wait for her and, ironically, promised to be honest about her feelings.
That FUBAR decided to proceed with information that she was given and that information turned out to be false is unfortunate, but not her fault.
I'm not saying FUBAR was wise to wait; I rarely think waiting around for someone is a good idea. But telling her that it's her fault because she had the bad manners to accept what was being said to her as the truth is both illogical and harsh. Not everybody lies all the time, not everybody is going to spot a lie every time they hear one, and sometimes a "white lie" to let someone down easy is just plain not okay.
41
Is it still a "douche move" when it's over a year later?
From the letter: "Neither one of them had bothered to tell me what was going on, and they had secretly been keeping in touch for two years."
So the brother and bi girl had been staying in touch in some manner for a year before FUBAR and the bi girl slept together again. So yeah, it is a douche move. If bi girl was building towards something with the brother, she probably should not have slept with the sister. Or there should have been some openness about what was going on- "Sure we can sleep together again! My boyfriend and I have an open relationship. BTW, my boyfriend is your brother. Hey, what is your dad doing later?"
From the letter: "Neither one of them had bothered to tell me what was going on, and they had secretly been keeping in touch for two years."
So the brother and bi girl had been staying in touch in some manner for a year before FUBAR and the bi girl slept together again. So yeah, it is a douche move. If bi girl was building towards something with the brother, she probably should not have slept with the sister. Or there should have been some openness about what was going on- "Sure we can sleep together again! My boyfriend and I have an open relationship. BTW, my boyfriend is your brother. Hey, what is your dad doing later?"
42
I've always thought the "don't date my exes" rule is a load of overbearing, controlling crap. Honestly, how do you meet new people to date? Through friends! If every friend your ex has is off limits, that generally limits quite a bit of your dating pool. It's controlling and it's crap and no one should expect it from anyone else. Obviously the new couple should be respectful of the ex's feelings, but asking them to not date at all is selfish and unrealistic.
That said, this ex appears to not have a ton of regard for FUBAR's feelings. She's thick, sure, she's missed some more common doublespeak, sure, but at the end of the day, FUBAR was deceived by the fact that her ex told her she felt the same and then slept with her again. THAT, and not "i'm not ready to date anyone right now," are why she kept hanging on, and why she felt betrayed. THAT is scummy. FUBAR has every right to those feelings. But thinking that the relationship is gross or off limits? No way.
That said, this ex appears to not have a ton of regard for FUBAR's feelings. She's thick, sure, she's missed some more common doublespeak, sure, but at the end of the day, FUBAR was deceived by the fact that her ex told her she felt the same and then slept with her again. THAT, and not "i'm not ready to date anyone right now," are why she kept hanging on, and why she felt betrayed. THAT is scummy. FUBAR has every right to those feelings. But thinking that the relationship is gross or off limits? No way.
43
"So I'm wondering: am I overreacting in feeling that a romantic relationship between my brother and my ex-girlfriend is totally gross, or am I right to expect that both of them would respect that there is an implied boundary that comes with an ex-lover and a sibling?"
Are those the relevant questions? Like, even if you did get answers, what are you going to do? Would it really help you feel less *hurt*? Both of these people acted shittily, and clearly there's not much of a constructive future there. Get some space; figure out whether you can or can't forgive your brother in the long run; refrain from sharing too much oxygen with your ex. End scene.
Also: When somebody hedges with something like "I'm not ready to date", they're lying or don't realize they're lying, because everyone's "ready" to date (unless they've suffered some kind of traumatic abuse). Waiting for someone to get emotionally ready to LIKE YOU AGAIN never fucking works. Don't listen to any true love destiny stories, and don't listen to that tiny voice in your head that betrays both science and mathematics. The probabilities will work in your favour if you *move on.*
Are those the relevant questions? Like, even if you did get answers, what are you going to do? Would it really help you feel less *hurt*? Both of these people acted shittily, and clearly there's not much of a constructive future there. Get some space; figure out whether you can or can't forgive your brother in the long run; refrain from sharing too much oxygen with your ex. End scene.
Also: When somebody hedges with something like "I'm not ready to date", they're lying or don't realize they're lying, because everyone's "ready" to date (unless they've suffered some kind of traumatic abuse). Waiting for someone to get emotionally ready to LIKE YOU AGAIN never fucking works. Don't listen to any true love destiny stories, and don't listen to that tiny voice in your head that betrays both science and mathematics. The probabilities will work in your favour if you *move on.*
44
Dan, even if you've renounced your Catholic background, you should still remember the sin of omission-letting people believe something you know is false because it's easier for you or lets you tell yourself you're not "hurting their feelings".
The ex knew that Fubar was prepared to hang on, and didn't just say, "sorry, but no". You can let someone down in respectful way that doesn't rely on them picking up hidden subtexts. Some of us suck at those, through no fault of our own.
That her brother also chose to sneak around and just not mention that he was fucking Fubar's ex, when Fubar had probably told him that she had hopes of restarting her relationship was the kind of tacky only family can descend to. Also, there's no indication that Fubar knew her ex was bi, so finding out that your lesbian lover is now sleeping with your brother adds another layer of insult to the injury.
The ex knew that Fubar was prepared to hang on, and didn't just say, "sorry, but no". You can let someone down in respectful way that doesn't rely on them picking up hidden subtexts. Some of us suck at those, through no fault of our own.
That her brother also chose to sneak around and just not mention that he was fucking Fubar's ex, when Fubar had probably told him that she had hopes of restarting her relationship was the kind of tacky only family can descend to. Also, there's no indication that Fubar knew her ex was bi, so finding out that your lesbian lover is now sleeping with your brother adds another layer of insult to the injury.
45
@33 - "na-na-na-na-na -- na-na-na-na-na... naa, naa, naa, na-na-na-na-na -- na-na-na-na-na..."
Can you still use the "A Man And A Woman" theme to mock couples who are making out in public? I know it worked back when I was in college.
Can you still use the "A Man And A Woman" theme to mock couples who are making out in public? I know it worked back when I was in college.
46
Um, not a cunt. Perhaps a dick...
In the Roman version, Cupid was the son of Venus (goddess of love) and variously Mars, Mercury or Neptune
In the Roman version, Cupid was the son of Venus (goddess of love) and variously Mars, Mercury or Neptune
47
Dan, harsh much? (Actually yeah sometimes you are. But we know that.) You could have made your point without adding insult to injury.
Despite whatever issues FUBAR may have, the fact is she was lied to by two people she trusted most in the world, one of whom told her that her feelings were reciprocated, the other her own flesh and blood. Maybe they were cowards or thought it would run its course. Whatever the reason, they're a couple of fucktards. In all the world there wasn't another cock/pussy they could get off with? They had to choose each other? These are two people who like forbidden fruit, and they chose that over FUBAR.
FUBAR, find a way to navigate family gatherings with your brother - because his actions shouldn't cost you the rest of your family - but other than that you REALLY need to move on.
Despite whatever issues FUBAR may have, the fact is she was lied to by two people she trusted most in the world, one of whom told her that her feelings were reciprocated, the other her own flesh and blood. Maybe they were cowards or thought it would run its course. Whatever the reason, they're a couple of fucktards. In all the world there wasn't another cock/pussy they could get off with? They had to choose each other? These are two people who like forbidden fruit, and they chose that over FUBAR.
FUBAR, find a way to navigate family gatherings with your brother - because his actions shouldn't cost you the rest of your family - but other than that you REALLY need to move on.
49
If no one else is going to say it, I'll say it. I think if the LW was male, every single one of you would see what a douche move the bi ex-GF and the brother were making. If the LW were male, (let's call "him" Original Brother), dated a girl for three YEARS and then remained "best friends" with said ex-GF (obviously still hung up on her), then his brother secretly started contacting her, then a year later Original Brother made love to his ex-GF/Best Friend, telling her his feelings and she said she felt the same, "but just wasn't ready to date anyone at this time", she then, knowing she had Original Brother on a string, continued on with the behind-his-back contact with Second Brother, THEN Original Brother finds out his ex-GF/STILL Best Friend was lying to him about all that another year later, well, yeah. I don't think anyone would disagree Original Brother owes someone a punch in the face. I don't think anyone would expect Original Brother to "just man up" and be super-friendly at Thanksgiving. She's a family-ruining tramp, and Second Brother either fell for it, or helped himself to a heaping portion of it. Three years is a serious relationship; some marriages don't last that long. Just because they are women doesn't mean it wasn't as meaningful. If the LW was so bad, why did ex-GF keep her around as best friend? No way this game-playing duo deserves any sympathy or slack. That Ex-GF needs to go fishing in a new gene pool.
50
@36 - Im with you on this one. The ex lied and basically strung her along when she said she had mutual feelings for FUBAR. To her it sounded like the truth - it sounded like what she wanted to hear.
And I dont understand how her brother could have been unaware of this situation between FUBAR and her ex. Between the two of them he must have heard SOMETHING. But it really wasnt about her feelings - they didnt want to face her feelings of anger and betrayal or confront their own guilt. If they really gave a crap about how FUBAR felt, if they really valued their own relationship, someone would have said something.
Keeping their relationship secret for TWO YEARS with the ex still sleeping with FUBAR AND telling her she still had feelings but was "not ready" (though that does seem like some thinly veiled bullshit) is some relationship destroying crap that could have been prevented.
And I dont understand how her brother could have been unaware of this situation between FUBAR and her ex. Between the two of them he must have heard SOMETHING. But it really wasnt about her feelings - they didnt want to face her feelings of anger and betrayal or confront their own guilt. If they really gave a crap about how FUBAR felt, if they really valued their own relationship, someone would have said something.
Keeping their relationship secret for TWO YEARS with the ex still sleeping with FUBAR AND telling her she still had feelings but was "not ready" (though that does seem like some thinly veiled bullshit) is some relationship destroying crap that could have been prevented.
52
@7 and Kim in Portland, agreed! Having recently been dumped by a woman who couldn't give me a direct response even if her beloved Mac was hanging over a ravine of hungry Dells, I am SICK of people not saying what they fucking mean! Anyone over 30 does not get a pass for being indirect and/or passive aggressive.
53
if she really wanted to screw with them she should just mention to the brother how she remembers licking her ex's labia... remind him of her taste... that she memorized every fold of her vagina and that every time he eats her out that he should be thinking of his sisters face in there while she plays with her clit... that image should ruin it for him... and she should remember to focus on the details... but that would be mean and childish and rude... but ya know... it could work... if her aim is the destruction of that relationship...
55
You guys/ladies talking about telling the brother about intimate details fail to realize how creepy it'd come off on you, not on the brother or ex.
56
@33, "the other"? Surely you mean "Another". The list of French movies that are great is a very long one. I'll nominate "Playtime" by and with Jacques Tati. Not what you'd call romantic, though, unless you're falling in love with modern architecture.
58
Also see French musical "Love Songs" for similarly complicated goings-on as well as some boy on boy lovin'. Good stuff!
59
@ Lola, Now in Iowa City,
Virtual hug. I'm so sorry. Having your heart broken sucks big time, especially if you have to push someone to be honest and direct with you. I'd like to think it comes from a sincere desire to be less hurtful, but sometimes I think it comes from a lack of courage; at its worst a lack of respect. In the end it really says more about them and their inability to have an ethical perspective in the situation. As one of the hallmarks of an ethical perspective is the capacity to put ourselves in another's shoes and see the situation through their eyes. And, that is a heartbreak of its own to recognize in one you love and believed loved you too. Sorry again.
Virtual hug. I'm so sorry. Having your heart broken sucks big time, especially if you have to push someone to be honest and direct with you. I'd like to think it comes from a sincere desire to be less hurtful, but sometimes I think it comes from a lack of courage; at its worst a lack of respect. In the end it really says more about them and their inability to have an ethical perspective in the situation. As one of the hallmarks of an ethical perspective is the capacity to put ourselves in another's shoes and see the situation through their eyes. And, that is a heartbreak of its own to recognize in one you love and believed loved you too. Sorry again.
60
@23 and 24: DAMN RIGHT. When someone says "I am not ready to be in a relationship right now", it should be because THEY AREN'T READY FOR A RELATIONSHIP RIGHT NOW. It shouldn't mean that they are dating someone else; it shouldn't mean that they aren't attracted to you. When you declare the proposition "P", it should be because you hold that P is true. This is all the more true when we are talking about intimate personal relationships. (There are situations in which it is justified to lie, but this isn't one of them.)
People act like they are sparing your feelings, but they aren't; they are LYING to spare their OWN feelings. So THEY don't have to admit that they are breaking up with you because they don't want you. So THEY get to have your attention and longing for them while THEY can hold you at arm's length.
No feelings are spared by these words. Feelings are DESTROYED. People are HURT. Honest intimacy is jeopardized.
People act like they are sparing your feelings, but they aren't; they are LYING to spare their OWN feelings. So THEY don't have to admit that they are breaking up with you because they don't want you. So THEY get to have your attention and longing for them while THEY can hold you at arm's length.
No feelings are spared by these words. Feelings are DESTROYED. People are HURT. Honest intimacy is jeopardized.
62
I don't think anybody is off limits, in a fair world. Sure, your relationship ended badly and you never want to see your ex again. But you don't own your brother, and you sure don't own your ex. As adults they have the right to love and fuck whomever they choose.
That said, as a family member, your brother owed you the courtesy of at least letting you know he was with her. It's not about getting your permission--a prerogative that you shouldn't have to begin with--it's just about respecting the feelings of your loved ones enough to be honest with them about something that will affect them.
That said, as a family member, your brother owed you the courtesy of at least letting you know he was with her. It's not about getting your permission--a prerogative that you shouldn't have to begin with--it's just about respecting the feelings of your loved ones enough to be honest with them about something that will affect them.
63
I don't know... is "I'm not ready for a relationship right now" still considered an acceptable brush-off of someone you've been close to for 10 years and dated for 3 and whose genitalia was just in your mouth?
64
I think the only reason people are skeeved out by this is because of the bi angle, honestly. Two brothers dating the same woman (including at the same time) is ready fodder for movies of the week; what's the big deal? Wasn't "While You Were Sleeping" similar to this very plot?
65
She said that her ex and brother had been together for 2 years. Which means they were already in a relationship before, after, and during the liaison FUBAR and ex had a year ago. Maybe the ex dating FUBAR's sibling is acceptable, but hooking up with FUBAR while in that relationship is sleazy. What's more, the ex DID say she felt the same way. "I feel the same way," COMBINED with actually SLEEPING with her, was seriously leading FUBAR on.
Maybe "I'm not ready to be in a relationship right now" wasn't so much "I'm not interested" as "I'm not ready to be in a relationship because I'm in another relationship I haven't told you about?" Could be the ex was trying to keep FUBAR on the back burner in case things didn't work out with her brother. So yeah, I think the ex is a cunt.
That being said, it was FUBAR, and not the ex, that wrote in and asked for Dan's advice. If Dan just told FUBAR "Yeah your ex is a total bitch," it would just have been giving a sympathetic ear, and not real ADVICE, to FUBAR. Regardless of how shitty FUBAR has been treated, the best thing she can do now is toughen up and move on, and sometimes it takes a good cold verbal slap in the face from an advice columnist to do just that.
Maybe "I'm not ready to be in a relationship right now" wasn't so much "I'm not interested" as "I'm not ready to be in a relationship because I'm in another relationship I haven't told you about?" Could be the ex was trying to keep FUBAR on the back burner in case things didn't work out with her brother. So yeah, I think the ex is a cunt.
That being said, it was FUBAR, and not the ex, that wrote in and asked for Dan's advice. If Dan just told FUBAR "Yeah your ex is a total bitch," it would just have been giving a sympathetic ear, and not real ADVICE, to FUBAR. Regardless of how shitty FUBAR has been treated, the best thing she can do now is toughen up and move on, and sometimes it takes a good cold verbal slap in the face from an advice columnist to do just that.
66
Is there a statute of limitations on the dating an ex rule? After all a person is presumed dead after going missing for seven years.
The ex was either bisexual all along or her sexual orientation chnaged during the last seven years. Since FUBAR does not explictly state her sexual orientation or that of the ex, I will assume that FUBAR is a lesbian and that FUBAR assumed the ex is one as well. This is obviously false and calls into question just how close a friend the ex considered FUBAR to be given that she did not inform FUBAR something as fundamental as her sexual orientation (again an assumption on my part).
We don't have the ex's side of the story and don't know if FUBAR just heard what she wanted to hear and not the ex's effort to deal with an extremely awkward situation. FUBAR's relationship with the ex ended seven years ago, presumably for good (although unstated) reasons. That is a long time for most people to go without seeing someone or having a relationship. For FUBAR to blurt out her feelings without first finding out if her best and closest friend was free or in a relationship (it is curious that she didn't know) far exceeds the actions of the ex and brother in gauche behavior. The moment FUBAR started to again have feelings for the ex, she was obligated by simple good manners to determine the ex's status. There appears to have been a disconnect between how FUBAR saw her friendship with her ex during the last seven years and how the ex saw it.
The ex was either bisexual all along or her sexual orientation chnaged during the last seven years. Since FUBAR does not explictly state her sexual orientation or that of the ex, I will assume that FUBAR is a lesbian and that FUBAR assumed the ex is one as well. This is obviously false and calls into question just how close a friend the ex considered FUBAR to be given that she did not inform FUBAR something as fundamental as her sexual orientation (again an assumption on my part).
We don't have the ex's side of the story and don't know if FUBAR just heard what she wanted to hear and not the ex's effort to deal with an extremely awkward situation. FUBAR's relationship with the ex ended seven years ago, presumably for good (although unstated) reasons. That is a long time for most people to go without seeing someone or having a relationship. For FUBAR to blurt out her feelings without first finding out if her best and closest friend was free or in a relationship (it is curious that she didn't know) far exceeds the actions of the ex and brother in gauche behavior. The moment FUBAR started to again have feelings for the ex, she was obligated by simple good manners to determine the ex's status. There appears to have been a disconnect between how FUBAR saw her friendship with her ex during the last seven years and how the ex saw it.
68
@64: "Two brothers dating the same woman (including at the same time) is ready fodder for movies of the week; what's the big deal? Wasn't 'While You Were Sleeping' similar to this very plot?"
That was like the most wholesome movie in the world. Hell, I don't think anyone even kissed until the end, and they barely held hands.
That was like the most wholesome movie in the world. Hell, I don't think anyone even kissed until the end, and they barely held hands.
69
Just a couple of days ago, I listened to the podcast in which Dan let it be known that "I'm not ready for/into having a relationship right now," means "I'm not interested in you." I freely admit that I'm completely inexperienced in conventional dating (as opposed to loving and fucking) and that I have no clue about societal white lies. My question is this: What does one say when unready to embark on a relationship but otherwise intently interested? At one time, I was dealing with being an abuse survivor, and I was profoundly inconsistent about how I felt about men and sex. (I'm a mostly-straight-but-certainly-somewhat-bi woman.)
Is there somewhere that I can learn the code of societal white lies? I've read quite a bit of Miss Manners's writing, but these kinds of things never come up in her books or columns. I'm a very direct and honest person and though I think I can be tactful, I'm not always successful. Generally people don't accept my subtlety and tact, I guess because they're not used to it from me.
Anyway, I _am_ ready for a (primary) relationship now, and it seems that the only guys who appreciate what a fabulous catch I am (GGG, kinky, poly, intelligent, financially independent, thoughtful, loving, playful and easily amused) are already married. Advice is welcome.
Is there somewhere that I can learn the code of societal white lies? I've read quite a bit of Miss Manners's writing, but these kinds of things never come up in her books or columns. I'm a very direct and honest person and though I think I can be tactful, I'm not always successful. Generally people don't accept my subtlety and tact, I guess because they're not used to it from me.
Anyway, I _am_ ready for a (primary) relationship now, and it seems that the only guys who appreciate what a fabulous catch I am (GGG, kinky, poly, intelligent, financially independent, thoughtful, loving, playful and easily amused) are already married. Advice is welcome.
70
@69 -- While I'm not qualified to answer it myself, your question about 'the code of societal white lies' sounds like a good one to email to Dan directly (or call and ask on the podcast), because that seems like it'd make for interesting reading/listening.
71
@69 If you're unready for a SERIOUS commitment, but not completely writing a person off, the line for that isn't "Not ready for a relationship" by rather, "Let's take it slow." The phrase "take it slow" lets the person know you need time, but doesn't imply you're not interested at all.
Advertisement
Most Commented on Slog
-
Hating People Doesn't Make Them Thinner by Jen Graves
-
Los Angeles Gay Bar Bans Bachelorette Parties Until Marriage Equality Is Attained by David Schmader
-
Fill in the Blank by Grant Brissey
-
This Reminds Me of the Great Calculator Scare of the Late '70s/Early '80s by David Schmader
-
Idiot Tries to Defend Bigoted Anti-Gay-Marriage Preacher on Anderson Cooper by Paul Constant
-
Six Moms with Too Much Time on Their Hands and a Shitty Website Decide to Fight Gay Superheroes by Paul Constant
-
The Saturday Morning News by Unpaid Intern
-
Why Mayor McGinn's Wife Canceled Her Family's Seattle Times Subscription by Eli Sanders
-
What the Hell Is Wrong With Seattle's Pride Parade? by Dominic Holden
-
NYC Man Ticketed for Not Riding in the Bike Lane by Jonathan Golob
RSS
Facebook
Twitter
Comments (72) RSS