Slog
News & ArtsTuesday, June 15, 2010
City Jaywalking Is Not a Crime
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 8:03 AM
Or it shouldn't be. Jaywalkers shouldn't be ticketed or subject to arrest. Seattle's obsession with ticketing and harassing jaywalkers dates to a time when Seattle police didn't have enough to do and Seattle residents didn't have anyplace to be. Jaywalking in Seattle shouldn't just be decriminalized, it should be encouraged. Because jaywalking is a traffic-calming measure. From David Owen's book Green Metropolis (via Walkable DFW):
In Manhattan, creative jaywalking is an environmental positive, because it makes traveling on foot easier: it enables pedestrians to maintain their forward progress when traffic lights are against them, and to gain small navigational advantages by weaving between cars on clogged side streets—and it also keeps drivers on their guard, forcing them to slow down.... Tightly controlling pedestrians with a view to improving the flow of car traffic just results in more and faster driving, and that makes life even harder and more dangerous for people on foot or on bikes.In fact, studies have shown that pedestrians are safer in urban areas where jaywalking is common than they are in urban areas where it is forbidden.
Criminalizing something as common and useful as jaywalking—criminalizing an environmental positive like jaywalking—invites selective enforcement and civil-rights abuses. I'm not saying that yesterday's unpleasantness is a clear-cut case of police brutality, although that punch-to-the-face was pretty brutal. All I'm saying—besides "jaywalking: good"—is that yesterday's unpleasantness could have been avoided if the cops hadn't have stopped those girls in the first place.
2
I agree Dan and what better way to think out the population in the CD and Rainier Valley than to allow folks to bolt across busy 4 lane roads. Seriously, every time I drive down there it's like playing Frogger.
3
I agree Dan and what better way to THIN out the population in the CD and Rainier Valley than to allow folks to bolt across busy 4 lane roads.
5
"is that yesterday's unpleasantness could have been avoided if the cops hadn't have stopped those girls in the first place"
I agree Dan, all unpleasantness with certain members of the community could be avoided if no laws were applied to them.
I agree Dan, all unpleasantness with certain members of the community could be avoided if no laws were applied to them.
6
As a pedestrian, I've been hit by a car once: in a crosswalk on a green light. Intersections are the most dangerous location at which to cross a street. I jaywalk all the time and that will be my defense if I'm ever cited.
7
Is it me or is it just Asshole Day on teh internets?
I have an idea, Seattle: if you don't want to be hassled by police when you're breaking one of those 'stupid' laws, STOP BREAKING LAWS IN FRONT OF COPS.
I have an idea, Seattle: if you don't want to be hassled by police when you're breaking one of those 'stupid' laws, STOP BREAKING LAWS IN FRONT OF COPS.
8
@1:
Uh, he cited the book, which mentioned the studies. I suppose your demand for citations from the citation would then be followed up by an infinite recursion for citations for those citations, and for citations for those citations, etc.
Uh, he cited the book, which mentioned the studies. I suppose your demand for citations from the citation would then be followed up by an infinite recursion for citations for those citations, and for citations for those citations, etc.
9
@1: The citation for those studies is probably included in the referenced book. Once you cite your source, you don't also have to cite their sources, because interested people can read for themselves.
Dan: there's a difference between busy downtown traffic and a divided arterial road like the one in question.
Dan: there's a difference between busy downtown traffic and a divided arterial road like the one in question.
10
This would be a great idea downtown. The danger would be in saying, "ok, citizens, you may now cross 1st Ave without a crosswalk," because people will then feel more comfortable crossing Aurora. You may not be that stupid, but there are lots of people who are -- we've all seen meth addicts and moms pushing strollers across Highway 99. If a law could be written in such a way that it limits it to certain downtown areas and still punishes those who cross foolishly and create dangerous situations, then I'm all for it. But at a time when cities are relying on revenue streams outside of normal taxes, I wouldn't hold my breath.
12
It's defenders of these girls who have down so much to destroy the community: keep telling people that they are victims, that normal rules don't apply to to them and bingo, this is what you get: Load mouthed, violent, ghetto trash who think it's ok to swing at a cop.
13
I've read that jaywalkers are less likely to die than people who are using crosswalks. The reason is obvious: When people get the "Walk Hand" they assume that it is safe to cross without checking for themselves. People in cars often turn right right against the red without stopping or checking for pedestrians, since they're cranking their necks over looking for car traffic.
Signalizing is in fact an extremely dangerous way to operate intersections -- roundabouts are usually better and much, much, much safer.
I'm not citing any sources because it's 8:30am and this is an internet blog and not an academic paper.
Of course, crossing on of the deadliest streets in Seattle is dangerous no matter how you do it -- in that case, it's probably easier and safer to use a controlled intersection.
Signalizing is in fact an extremely dangerous way to operate intersections -- roundabouts are usually better and much, much, much safer.
I'm not citing any sources because it's 8:30am and this is an internet blog and not an academic paper.
Of course, crossing on of the deadliest streets in Seattle is dangerous no matter how you do it -- in that case, it's probably easier and safer to use a controlled intersection.
14
@8, 9
If you haven't read the studies, why use them to defend your point? e.g., bold-face their conclusions?
If you haven't read the studies, why use them to defend your point? e.g., bold-face their conclusions?
15
By the way -- anyone here ever get attention from a cop for jaywalking across, say, Broadway? I sure haven't, ever, and it's not like people aren't doing it.
16
@12: People who use terms like "ghetto trash" to refer to a teenage girl are shining beacons unto our community, right?
17
"I've read that jaywalkers are less likely to die than people who are using crosswalks. "
You obviously haven't seen how black people jay walk....when I first lived in the CD I was warned that people just walk out across the street without looking....it was described to me as a 'cultural thing'.
You obviously haven't seen how black people jay walk....when I first lived in the CD I was warned that people just walk out across the street without looking....it was described to me as a 'cultural thing'.
19
Oh for God's sake, Dan. You don't even drive, you probably get down to the corner of MLK and Rainier once every five years. It IS a problem down there, so stop trying to make this into some sort of after-school special.
Now, the better solution would be to put up big barricades so people can't cross the street and would be forced to use the overpass, but that would take money.
Now, the better solution would be to put up big barricades so people can't cross the street and would be forced to use the overpass, but that would take money.
20
The punch to the face was harsh, but it was appropriate given the circumstances.
I agree that downtown jaywalking laws are maddening, but yesterday's jaywalking incident took place directly underneath a pedestrian overpass at very busy intersection of two arterials with poor sight lines.
Also - jaywalking is not a criminal offense in Seattle - it is an infraction (Unless it rises to the undefined level of "egregious jaywalking.").
I agree that downtown jaywalking laws are maddening, but yesterday's jaywalking incident took place directly underneath a pedestrian overpass at very busy intersection of two arterials with poor sight lines.
Also - jaywalking is not a criminal offense in Seattle - it is an infraction (Unless it rises to the undefined level of "egregious jaywalking.").
22
everyone knows that Sodom was destroyed because of all the homo sex, but very few people are aware that the reason God took out Gomorrah was that they had just recently repealed their jaywalking laws.
23
"Signalizing is in fact an extremely dangerous way to operate intersections -- roundabouts are usually better and much, much, much safer."
I lived for a few years in an unspecified latin american capital that used roundabouts for all the major intersections. It could take 5-10 minutes to get through them during rush hour. Pedestrians could get across quicker - as long as they were fleet of foot. Since there was no light cycle, there was no end to the flow of cars ready to mow down foot-people.
The city is much easier to navigate now that the roundabouts have been replaced with signals. Cars and pedestrians get through quicker and safer.
I lived for a few years in an unspecified latin american capital that used roundabouts for all the major intersections. It could take 5-10 minutes to get through them during rush hour. Pedestrians could get across quicker - as long as they were fleet of foot. Since there was no light cycle, there was no end to the flow of cars ready to mow down foot-people.
The city is much easier to navigate now that the roundabouts have been replaced with signals. Cars and pedestrians get through quicker and safer.
24
Car drivers should get one day a year of amnesty from running over idiots who are too stupid to cross the street safely. They should not tell pedestrians when that day is.
As a driver, I see so much arrogance and plain stupidity when it comes to pedestrians crossing the road from between parked cars, while someone is trying to parallel park, against red lights, ...
As a driver, I see so much arrogance and plain stupidity when it comes to pedestrians crossing the road from between parked cars, while someone is trying to parallel park, against red lights, ...
26
@17: Fuck you, you racist sack of shit. (That goes for Lovely Linda too.) Jaywalking is a cultural thing, yes, but it has nothing to do with ethnicity. As a Chicago boy, jaywalking is a finely honed art; not because of who I am, but because of where I grew up. Also, before anyone condemns jaywalking, try crossing the Midway Plaisance on foot next time you're in Chicago.
27
I agree with Dan. We do far too much criminalising in this society. Just because we are a nation of laws doesn't mean we need a law against EVERYTHING! I'm an adult and I know how to cross the street.
28
@6 Thats not a defense.
I live in NYC, here jaywalking is vital, and all the cars are used to it. You walk so much in this city you really can't be bothered with the traffic of tourists and inconsiderate people. No cop here would ever give you a ticket (Unless they are trying to win Top-Dick).
I used to be from Seattle, where I drove all the time. I CAN NOT DRIVE IN NYC, its totally different and I would probably hit someone. Seattle drivers are easily distracted, people shouldn't be crossing them without help.
The only place in Seattle where I ever saw people get stopped for jaywalking was Northgate, the traffic there is so constant that the quick cross of the street can seriously cause problems or accidents.
I live in NYC, here jaywalking is vital, and all the cars are used to it. You walk so much in this city you really can't be bothered with the traffic of tourists and inconsiderate people. No cop here would ever give you a ticket (Unless they are trying to win Top-Dick).
I used to be from Seattle, where I drove all the time. I CAN NOT DRIVE IN NYC, its totally different and I would probably hit someone. Seattle drivers are easily distracted, people shouldn't be crossing them without help.
The only place in Seattle where I ever saw people get stopped for jaywalking was Northgate, the traffic there is so constant that the quick cross of the street can seriously cause problems or accidents.
29
So get the laws off the books. Until that time, expect to be stopped when breaking them. It's just like every other law that someone feels shouldn't be enforced (smoking pot, seat belts, whatever); just because you don't want them to be enforced doesn't mean they won't be. If you want to practice civil disobedience, you should still expect consequences.
If you are stopped, don't get in the cop's face, because that's a problem unrelated to the first and no matter what you're guilty or not guilty of doing that got you into that situation, you're going to be in trouble.
And jumping on a cop precipitates a violent reaction.
If you are stopped, don't get in the cop's face, because that's a problem unrelated to the first and no matter what you're guilty or not guilty of doing that got you into that situation, you're going to be in trouble.
And jumping on a cop precipitates a violent reaction.
30
Why do ghetto blacks walk s-l-o-w-l-y across the street and get in the way of traffic while they stare and glower with their ape-like faces?
31
"Jaywalking is a cultural thing, yes, but it has nothing to do with ethnicity."
@26 Really? Spend a day driving around Wallingford and Fremont, then a day driving around the CD and Rainier Valley and get back to me.
I'm a Chicago boy too...but I actually lived on the South Side...it was Frogger there too.
@26 Really? Spend a day driving around Wallingford and Fremont, then a day driving around the CD and Rainier Valley and get back to me.
I'm a Chicago boy too...but I actually lived on the South Side...it was Frogger there too.
32
" I'm an adult and I know how to cross the street."
So do I but unfortunately certain members of the community don't.
It's like guns, booze, all kinds of things. Sure, some of us can use them fine, but certain folks simply can't be trusted to take care of themselves as responsible adults so we have laws.
So do I but unfortunately certain members of the community don't.
It's like guns, booze, all kinds of things. Sure, some of us can use them fine, but certain folks simply can't be trusted to take care of themselves as responsible adults so we have laws.
33
The real problem is that the section of street in question is not safe for pedestrians. There's a raised pedestrian crossing nearby but that just underscores the point that the road is too dangerous to cross otherwise. The road should be redesigned with pedestrian uses in mind.
34
the question people aren't asking is why do people risk their lives and break the laws to jaywalk? as someone who felt forced to do it many, many times as a pedestrian in seattle and now as a pedestrian in LA, I can tell you the root cause is car-centric planning. on streets like rainier there simply aren't enough lights or crossings for pedestrians. if you want to catch a bus or go to a store that's on the other side of the street, what are you supposed to walk like an extra 1/4 mile or even 1/2 mile just to get someplace right across the fucking street? the problem is poor pedestrian access. we're treated like second class citizens so cars can have right of way. but if anyone needed to slow down, stop and wait, or go a little out of their way to help reduce traffic hold ups, it should be cars. who can recover that lost time faster to get where they need to go - a person who walks 8 miles an hour or a car that goes 20-40? the other annoyance is when there actually is an intersection signal for peds but we have to wait through 2 light cycles to get it. not fair. no wonder americans are obese - there is no incentive to walk or bike because drivers get it easy.
35
Jaywalking doesn't get anyone anywhere any faster. Take a long walk and watch yourself catch up to the same jaywalker over and over. It's pointless. All it really does is make the jaywalker feel important, so why not just relax at the stoplight and enjoy the scenery?
36
@26 I cross Midway Plaisance on foot virtually every day. There are plenty of crosswalks. There are plenty of breaks in traffic. There is thus little reason to jaywalk.
37
Those hones were too fat to use the bridge......I'm amazed Dan didn't point that out.
@34 Can u see the fucking pedestrian bridge in the photo? Put there, no doubt, to prevent certain members of the community from killing themselves.
@34 Can u see the fucking pedestrian bridge in the photo? Put there, no doubt, to prevent certain members of the community from killing themselves.
38
It's really too much of a catch-22 to take the jaywalking laws off the books. While I agree with your premise (try to cross a street in Ho Chi Minh City and tell me that the number of pedestrians crossing willy-nilly doesn't have the EXACT effects described in Dan's post), taking the jaywalking laws off the books would result in massive lawsuits against drivers by those who cross irresponsibly or, worse, intentionally cause a driver to hit them. If there's no law against just crossing the street at random, then expect your car insurance premiums to skyrocket. Barnes dances are a far better way of protecting pedestrians at intersections, and mid-block, marked, lighted, enforced crosswalks can also calm traffic and move pedestrians efficiently.
39
I have to fully agree with 19 and 20 in this case. Jaywalking is not necessarily the root of all evil, but there are times and places where it's not a wise thing to be doing....like Rainier, or MLK, or Northgate Way, or Aurora, or downtown Bellevue...
In the particular incident that inspired this post, the video happens right beneath a pedestrian overpass. Come on, that's just plain taunting and daring an officer to confront them. Choose your battles, really.
And tangentially on the pedestrian topic, what's with the lolly-gagging pedestrians who just walk whenever they want, however slow they want no matter if there is a car, bike, bus or whatever bearing down.
In the particular incident that inspired this post, the video happens right beneath a pedestrian overpass. Come on, that's just plain taunting and daring an officer to confront them. Choose your battles, really.
And tangentially on the pedestrian topic, what's with the lolly-gagging pedestrians who just walk whenever they want, however slow they want no matter if there is a car, bike, bus or whatever bearing down.
40
That cop has got to arrest jaywalkers. Jesus, he could barely cuff that little girl. You can't expect him to arrest a real criminal or a guy or something. He would get his ass kicked. Let him keep arresting little girls.
41
Gttim, you're an ignorant cop hater. Stop commenting on these threads because your irrational prejudice is keeping you from contributing anything meaningful to the discussion.
Who is it upthread that said something about jaywalking not getting you anywhere faster? That's a load. The only reason anyone jaywalks is because it DOES get you there faster.
Who is it upthread that said something about jaywalking not getting you anywhere faster? That's a load. The only reason anyone jaywalks is because it DOES get you there faster.
42
BTW you know why that pedestrian bridge is there? In 2005 a young kid got hit jay walking while delivering crack.
43
In response to those who think they should be allowed to run down pedestrians as they please, may I be allowed to savagely beat car drivers who speed recklessly at every opportunity? Or is that law an okay one to break, since, like, you get home five minutes quicker, and like, it's fun?
Excessive speed is the actual problem on our streets - one of the biggest factors in fatal crashes of all kinds, but it's easier to blame pedestrians.
I would like to see huge fines for exceeding the speed limit. Something like Northern Europe, where the rich get $20,000 speeding tickets. But here in America we just can't get serious about making our streets safer.
Excessive speed is the actual problem on our streets - one of the biggest factors in fatal crashes of all kinds, but it's easier to blame pedestrians.
I would like to see huge fines for exceeding the speed limit. Something like Northern Europe, where the rich get $20,000 speeding tickets. But here in America we just can't get serious about making our streets safer.
44
I've gotten one jay walking ticket in Seattle. I like to think of it as a crosswalk tax of some sort.
If I could change one thing about Seattle, it'd be the hordes of people who just stand forever on the edge of an empty street patiently waiting for walking orders from the magical light box.
If I could change one thing about Seattle, it'd be the hordes of people who just stand forever on the edge of an empty street patiently waiting for walking orders from the magical light box.
45
@41 I am not a cop hater. Some cops are great people who do a great job. That cop is not one of them. That cop is a Barney Fife who should be busing tables or anything.
And why would I quit commenting? It is a meaningful comment to point out an incompetent cop. They guy did nothing right.
And why would I quit commenting? It is a meaningful comment to point out an incompetent cop. They guy did nothing right.
46
@40:
Who said he was arresting jaywalkers; before the confrontation, he only asked them to stand by the car, probably for a lecture or a ticket. What these morons were arrested for is more likely along the lines of interfering, resisting, assault, etc.
If they'd have just kept their mouths shut, they'd probably had gone on their way after 10 minutes and a warning. Again, just because you don't think a law should be enforced doesn't mean you don't have to follow it.
Who said he was arresting jaywalkers; before the confrontation, he only asked them to stand by the car, probably for a lecture or a ticket. What these morons were arrested for is more likely along the lines of interfering, resisting, assault, etc.
If they'd have just kept their mouths shut, they'd probably had gone on their way after 10 minutes and a warning. Again, just because you don't think a law should be enforced doesn't mean you don't have to follow it.
47
"Something like Northern Europe, where the rich get $20,000 speeding tickets"
really? Care to site that whopper?
"That cop is a Barney Fife who should be busing tables or anything. "
So what you are saying is he wasn't aggressive enough because that's what I see. He let these girls, squirm, fight, push, and swing at him and near his gun and still managed not to body slam them to the pavement. This cop showed AMAZING restraint.
But keep on telling black people the same rules the rest of us must follow don't apply to them, it's done an amazing job on spawning crime.
really? Care to site that whopper?
"That cop is a Barney Fife who should be busing tables or anything. "
So what you are saying is he wasn't aggressive enough because that's what I see. He let these girls, squirm, fight, push, and swing at him and near his gun and still managed not to body slam them to the pavement. This cop showed AMAZING restraint.
But keep on telling black people the same rules the rest of us must follow don't apply to them, it's done an amazing job on spawning crime.
48
Just one more person who's been hit by a car, in a crosswalk, with the 'Walk' sign. Made $5G off the event from minor injuries, and was able to take a long vacation between college and career as a result.
Jaywalking saves lives.
Jaywalking saves lives.
49
In the extended version you can hear someone in the crowd saying “need to ride on that ni**a cuz”, referring to shooting the cop.
Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with these kids.
Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with these kids.
50
he's got a point. the only time I've *ever* nearly been hit by a car, whether on a car or on a bike, was when it was *my* right-of-way.
The only thing is, a lot of people *still* use their cell phones while driving, even though its illegal. If they can't be bothered to stop at an actual intersection because they're too busy txting someone, what makes you think they'll see/stop for someone walking in the middle of the road?
The only thing is, a lot of people *still* use their cell phones while driving, even though its illegal. If they can't be bothered to stop at an actual intersection because they're too busy txting someone, what makes you think they'll see/stop for someone walking in the middle of the road?
51
@ 45, bullshit. He didn't do anything wrong, given that he was surrounded. He didn't manhandle the girl (which you seem to imply he should have done, with your cutesy "he couldn't handcuff a girl" asides). He kept control of the situation (and no, that doesn't mean keeping everyone happy and cooperative). Still, you feel like you can assess the situation better. If it's not cop-hate, then something else is impairing your judgment.
52
Just use the damned crosswalk and cross with the light already. What are you, twelve? Is it not cool to follow the rules of the road now?
53
@51 How the hell did he keep control of the situation. He was surrounded by folks laughing at him, had girls jumping on his back and grabbing his arm. He took over 2 minutes to handcuff a little girl. If he had done something right, he would have handcuffed the girl and had her in the car before it got out of control, without appearing to hurt her. If he had done anything right, it would not have progressed to that. That video is textbook how to fuck up a situation.
54
@ 53, see? You don't know anything about how the police are supposed to do their jobs. All your points have already been answered, by myself and others in the other thread. Read and learn.
55
Having lived and driven in Manhattan and Boston, I approve of ticketing jaywalkers. Pedestrians turn into assholes really quickly when they're allowed to just cross wherever and whenever they want. They'll step off the curb right as the light turns green and saunter slowly across giving you a dirty look for barely moving your car forward and thinking (foolishly) that the green light meant it was your turn to go.
We sit dutifully in our cars at red lights when it's 4AM and there is no one around. How is waiting for the crosswalk any different?
We sit dutifully in our cars at red lights when it's 4AM and there is no one around. How is waiting for the crosswalk any different?
56
Regarding Dan's actual point about jaywalking... Different cities have different cultures regarding this. NYC is a place where everyone gets in everyone else's face about everything. Seattle is not. Seattle is a place where everyone knows it's against the law to jaywalk and that they'll give you a ticket when they catch you doing it. So you have to be a smart jaywalker (that is, cross only when you've looked around to make sure that it's clear, and that there are no cops of any kind nearby) if you're going to do it. I jaywalked all the time in Seattle and never had a close call because I was smart about it.
Seattle will NEVER repeal the jaywalking law unless people start to jaywalk wholesale. Someone mentioned how everyone stands on the corner waiting for the walk sign when they could safely cross. That's how conditioned against jaywalking Seattleites are. Some blowhard from Chicago (or some miscreant from Denver) isn't going to change that.
Seattle will NEVER repeal the jaywalking law unless people start to jaywalk wholesale. Someone mentioned how everyone stands on the corner waiting for the walk sign when they could safely cross. That's how conditioned against jaywalking Seattleites are. Some blowhard from Chicago (or some miscreant from Denver) isn't going to change that.
57
Two ways to handle this situation. if you live on the Northside:
"Yes officer, I'll come to your location with my hands visible and see what you have to say. Jaywalking? Seriously? I didn't know that was illegal. There were no cars and I crossed the street safely, so I don't know what the problem is. You want my identification? OK. You're writting me a ticket? I think that's a bunch of BS, but I guess I'll have to go to court to have it dismissed. Thank you officer, have a nice day."
Or the southside:
"#%*& you, mo$*#@ #$*@er. I'm not going to #&@ing do anything you say. You racist mo$*#@ #$*@er. I'm going to push you and slap at you and scream at you. I'm going to #&@ing cross the #&@ing street any #&@ing way I want. I'm not going to show you my #&@ing ID. I don't have to because you're a racist #&@ing cop. Now I'll have my friends come over and surround you and have them scream at you too. You're going to arrest me for jaywalking? You #&@ing pig, I'm going to sue your #&@ing @ss. You're going to handcuff me? I don't think so. Get your #&@ing hands off me. I'm going to continue to pull away and resist and make the 10 o'clock news."
"Yes officer, I'll come to your location with my hands visible and see what you have to say. Jaywalking? Seriously? I didn't know that was illegal. There were no cars and I crossed the street safely, so I don't know what the problem is. You want my identification? OK. You're writting me a ticket? I think that's a bunch of BS, but I guess I'll have to go to court to have it dismissed. Thank you officer, have a nice day."
Or the southside:
"#%*& you, mo$*#@ #$*@er. I'm not going to #&@ing do anything you say. You racist mo$*#@ #$*@er. I'm going to push you and slap at you and scream at you. I'm going to #&@ing cross the #&@ing street any #&@ing way I want. I'm not going to show you my #&@ing ID. I don't have to because you're a racist #&@ing cop. Now I'll have my friends come over and surround you and have them scream at you too. You're going to arrest me for jaywalking? You #&@ing pig, I'm going to sue your #&@ing @ss. You're going to handcuff me? I don't think so. Get your #&@ing hands off me. I'm going to continue to pull away and resist and make the 10 o'clock news."
59
Dan and most of the "pro-jaywalking" commenters must be totally ignorant of this particular intersection, there is no safe way to cross it on foot besides the overpass. There are two major arterials crossing with each lane has a straight and a right or left turn light, 16 directions of traffic in every light cycle. Any European city, praised so often on the Slog, puts major barriers around these types of intersections to keep people off the road.
Worse are the many drivers who will flash guns and gang signs if you stop or slow down to avoid hitting a pedestrian. I drive around it most of the time, I don't want to find out what the driver behind me will do if we had a fender bender avoiding a pedestrian. The city is irresponsible in it's failure to put up barriers to keep pedestrians off this road and Franklin HS does nothing to keep their kids from crossing.
Worse are the many drivers who will flash guns and gang signs if you stop or slow down to avoid hitting a pedestrian. I drive around it most of the time, I don't want to find out what the driver behind me will do if we had a fender bender avoiding a pedestrian. The city is irresponsible in it's failure to put up barriers to keep pedestrians off this road and Franklin HS does nothing to keep their kids from crossing.
60
Fuck you. She was 17 years old. Would you call 17-year-old male a "little boy"?
He took over 2 minutes to handcuff a little girl.
Fuck you. She was 17 years old. Would you call 17-year-old male a "little boy"?
61
"Dan and most of the "pro-jaywalking" commenters must be totally ignorant of this particular intersection,"
No, Dan thinks crossing this section of road is like skipping across Broadway @ Denny in a pair of capri jeans.....
No, Dan thinks crossing this section of road is like skipping across Broadway @ Denny in a pair of capri jeans.....
62
"Franklin HS does nothing to keep their kids from crossing."
Are u kidding? Jaywalking while black is a graduation requirement for Franklin for getting ready for life in the ghetto.
Are u kidding? Jaywalking while black is a graduation requirement for Franklin for getting ready for life in the ghetto.
63
I don't necessarily disagree...well I do sort of, I think that jaywalking should remain illegal but only be selectively enforced (i.e. in situations where it genuinely presents a danger, which are not non-existent). I've seen people walk out into the middle of the street right in front of oncomming traffic without even looking and that kind of stupidity absolutely should be illegal. If, however, you want to look both ways, make sure it's safe to cross and then do it even though you happen to not be at a crosswalk or are but the light is against you that should be fine. If trafic is at a stand still and you want to walk between the cars that should also be fine.
But even if I (mostly) agree, I don't think NYC is the best example to use to illustrate the argument. The most severe pedestrian/cyclist accident I've ever heard of happened in NYC. The drivers in NYC are insane and will drive as fast as they can (and not yeild to pedestrians even when they are crossing the street legally). What makes NYC a better pedestrian city is definitely not that it is safer for pedestrians there, or that pedestrians are not ticketed for jaywalking there, it's because it is more convenient for pedestrians there (i.e. density and public transportation)
Density equals more ammenities within walking distance because there is enough population to support them and public transportation means that even if what you're looking for isn't within walking distance you can still get to it without a car. Also, denisty means fewer parking spaces per capita which is incentive to walk/take public trans.
But even if I (mostly) agree, I don't think NYC is the best example to use to illustrate the argument. The most severe pedestrian/cyclist accident I've ever heard of happened in NYC. The drivers in NYC are insane and will drive as fast as they can (and not yeild to pedestrians even when they are crossing the street legally). What makes NYC a better pedestrian city is definitely not that it is safer for pedestrians there, or that pedestrians are not ticketed for jaywalking there, it's because it is more convenient for pedestrians there (i.e. density and public transportation)
Density equals more ammenities within walking distance because there is enough population to support them and public transportation means that even if what you're looking for isn't within walking distance you can still get to it without a car. Also, denisty means fewer parking spaces per capita which is incentive to walk/take public trans.
64
I got a jaywalking ticket when I first moved here.
I was walking up 2nd avenue shortly before 7am on my way to the Vashon PO ferry. I came to Cherry street, there was not a single car on the road. I crossed and went right on the far side of cherry. Half way down the block a motor cycle cop pulls up going to wrong way on a one-way; at this point I had no inkling in my mind that he was coming after me. But then he proceeded to give me a $46 citation for 'crossing against the signal'.
I agree that random jaywalking in traffic or on busy roads should be dangerous and illegal. However, I really think the cops should use some discretion with this law. If someone safely waits for a large break in traffic and crosses swiftly or in my case crosses and empty intersection I do not think that's a good opportunity to exercise the jaywalking law.
@44 Consequently, I am not one of those people who waits at empty intersections for a stupid box to tell me when to go. At least when I'm down town.
I was walking up 2nd avenue shortly before 7am on my way to the Vashon PO ferry. I came to Cherry street, there was not a single car on the road. I crossed and went right on the far side of cherry. Half way down the block a motor cycle cop pulls up going to wrong way on a one-way; at this point I had no inkling in my mind that he was coming after me. But then he proceeded to give me a $46 citation for 'crossing against the signal'.
I agree that random jaywalking in traffic or on busy roads should be dangerous and illegal. However, I really think the cops should use some discretion with this law. If someone safely waits for a large break in traffic and crosses swiftly or in my case crosses and empty intersection I do not think that's a good opportunity to exercise the jaywalking law.
@44 Consequently, I am not one of those people who waits at empty intersections for a stupid box to tell me when to go. At least when I'm down town.
67
Dan Savage got a jaywalking ticket and had an epiphany.
"Everything I personally enjoy doing should be legal. Whatever I don't like should be illegal." Nice philosophy you got there.
"Everything I personally enjoy doing should be legal. Whatever I don't like should be illegal." Nice philosophy you got there.
68
Jaywalking tickets should only be issued when it is reckless. Anyone crossing at this section of road is being reckless. End of story.
69
I was stopped and harassed by a cop for jaywalking on Capitol Hill last year. It was about 11:00 at night, with about a foot of snow on the ground. There were no cars anywhere around. I didn't get a ticket, but still, what a waste of time and energy. If I get hit by a car while crossing against the light, I'll take full responsibility for my mistake. And I'm smart enough to wait my turn when there is traffic.
70
"...it also keeps drivers on their guard, forcing them to slow down..."
If you belive this you have never walked in NYC.
If you belive this you have never walked in NYC.
71
This begs another question about the cop stopping those jaywalkers yesterday. Were they interfering with traffic at the time they jaywalked?
I would say that jaywalking should be enforced on a basis of "no harm no foul". If they were neither hindering traffic nor endangering themselves, they should not have been stopped. If they interfered with the right of way of others, yes they should have been stopped.
Given the ugliness that erupted, I have another question about how the police conduct their business. All the cop shows I (and many of the rest of us) always showed cops working in teams, yet when I look in a police cruiser, I see one cop. Should that officer had had to deal with that situation alone for as long as he did? Isn't every routine stop just one nutjob away from getting out of control.
For the record, after seeing the video of that stop, as wrong as the cop was to punch her, bitch had it coming.
I would say that jaywalking should be enforced on a basis of "no harm no foul". If they were neither hindering traffic nor endangering themselves, they should not have been stopped. If they interfered with the right of way of others, yes they should have been stopped.
Given the ugliness that erupted, I have another question about how the police conduct their business. All the cop shows I (and many of the rest of us) always showed cops working in teams, yet when I look in a police cruiser, I see one cop. Should that officer had had to deal with that situation alone for as long as he did? Isn't every routine stop just one nutjob away from getting out of control.
For the record, after seeing the video of that stop, as wrong as the cop was to punch her, bitch had it coming.
72
"If I get hit by a car while crossing against the light, I'll take full responsibility for my mistake."
@69 Yeah, right....and who'll pay your hospital bills?
@69 Yeah, right....and who'll pay your hospital bills?
73
@67,
And if he ever starts driving on his own or if his boyfriend one day hits a pedestrian who carelessly stepped into a busy street, jaywalking will suddenly become a crime against humanity.
And if he ever starts driving on his own or if his boyfriend one day hits a pedestrian who carelessly stepped into a busy street, jaywalking will suddenly become a crime against humanity.
74
Good lord, Dan. Love your writing, but seriously?
I don't understand this notion of entitlement that we, as pedestrians, think we have over the streets. I'm a driver and a foot pedestrian both, and I realize that there are rules in place on both ends to keep everyone safe...this isn't some "don't question authority" rant, this is "Uh, everyone is accountable in some way for keeping some order in all of this".
Seriously, if you think that Jack Drunko has the right to slog (no pun intended) his way across some pitch black street at 3am, you're insane. This city has enough problems for drivers with bicyclists who don't obey traffic laws; the last thing we need is for a flood of pedestrians with God's right of way jetting out whenever they want to. Walk the extra 25/50/100/200 yards to the crosswalk and wait your turn. It's not that hard.
This officially ends my old man rant.
I don't understand this notion of entitlement that we, as pedestrians, think we have over the streets. I'm a driver and a foot pedestrian both, and I realize that there are rules in place on both ends to keep everyone safe...this isn't some "don't question authority" rant, this is "Uh, everyone is accountable in some way for keeping some order in all of this".
Seriously, if you think that Jack Drunko has the right to slog (no pun intended) his way across some pitch black street at 3am, you're insane. This city has enough problems for drivers with bicyclists who don't obey traffic laws; the last thing we need is for a flood of pedestrians with God's right of way jetting out whenever they want to. Walk the extra 25/50/100/200 yards to the crosswalk and wait your turn. It's not that hard.
This officially ends my old man rant.
75
I foresee the perfect storm on the horizon….
Jaywalker steps into path of cyclist on fixie tearing down Denny with no helmet on.
Blood everywhere!
Stranger’s collective head explodes.
Jaywalker steps into path of cyclist on fixie tearing down Denny with no helmet on.
Blood everywhere!
Stranger’s collective head explodes.
76
Yes, Yes, Yes. As a driver, pedestrian and bicyclist, I MUCH prefer moving around cities with jaywalking cultures. Everyone is looking out for each other, and everyone is safer as a result.
Boston used to be a very unpleasant place to drive, walk or bike. In fact, it had a reputation for the least respectful drivers in New England. But now that there's a culture of jaywalking, it's reclaimed its position as one of the most walkable cities in the U.S.
Plus people who insist on waiting for the traffic light to change are scary. Such meek submission to a mindless authority is alien to me.
Boston used to be a very unpleasant place to drive, walk or bike. In fact, it had a reputation for the least respectful drivers in New England. But now that there's a culture of jaywalking, it's reclaimed its position as one of the most walkable cities in the U.S.
Plus people who insist on waiting for the traffic light to change are scary. Such meek submission to a mindless authority is alien to me.
77
"Stranger’s collective head explodes. "
@75 The Stranger will side with whomever is wearing the capri jeans.
@75 The Stranger will side with whomever is wearing the capri jeans.
79
@19: On Dan, that was a victory. FTV. :)
As to everything else being lobbed, it seems reasonable that everyone staking a comment in this should read up on the history of modern American streets and the history of "jaywalking" before delving into any kind of commentary. Also, let's talk about the first impetus for cities to pave their streets with asphalt and concrete.
Once you're all done with that, pull out the peer-reviewed field studies of pedestrian-vehicle collisions (where in these studies, for now, cyclists are still classified as "pedestrians"). Then pull out the history of crossing safely between intersections versus crossing at the intersection.
We'll start out lightly here: what's a "jay"?
a) A visible minority
b) a country bumpkin
c) a city slicker
And, uh, in which city and in what year was the word "jaywalker" first applied with by-law enforcement and prohibition notice via street signage?
a) New York, 1925
b) Chicago, 1919
c) Los Angeles, 1930
And last (for now), why were dirt streets replaced with hard surfaces — first cedar planks and later pavement? Choose the best answer.
a) To accommodate pedestrians
b) For public health improvement from "road dust"
c) For safety bicycles
d) For automobiles and horseless carriages.
Once you've all passed this 101, let's actually speak knowledgeably about the evolution and present situation of urban roadways. Thanks.
As to everything else being lobbed, it seems reasonable that everyone staking a comment in this should read up on the history of modern American streets and the history of "jaywalking" before delving into any kind of commentary. Also, let's talk about the first impetus for cities to pave their streets with asphalt and concrete.
Once you're all done with that, pull out the peer-reviewed field studies of pedestrian-vehicle collisions (where in these studies, for now, cyclists are still classified as "pedestrians"). Then pull out the history of crossing safely between intersections versus crossing at the intersection.
We'll start out lightly here: what's a "jay"?
a) A visible minority
b) a country bumpkin
c) a city slicker
And, uh, in which city and in what year was the word "jaywalker" first applied with by-law enforcement and prohibition notice via street signage?
a) New York, 1925
b) Chicago, 1919
c) Los Angeles, 1930
And last (for now), why were dirt streets replaced with hard surfaces — first cedar planks and later pavement? Choose the best answer.
a) To accommodate pedestrians
b) For public health improvement from "road dust"
c) For safety bicycles
d) For automobiles and horseless carriages.
Once you've all passed this 101, let's actually speak knowledgeably about the evolution and present situation of urban roadways. Thanks.
80
The difference between the jaywalking in NYC and Seattle is that in NYC people have the sense to not walk directly into traffic in the dark in the rain. This sort of brilliance is fairly common here which I attribute partially to the dippy anti-car attitude that is quite prevalent amongst the excruciatingly political correct and also the dippy assumption that most dippy Seattle drivers will brake in the middle of a four lane street just because they see someone on the sidewalk who looks like he might like to jaywalk.
81
I grew up near Eugene, where jaywalking is legal so long as you are not obstructing traffic by doing so. Seems to work just fine there. Most pedestrians in Eugene are hit by drivers running red lights and stop signs, or failing to yield to pedestrians (who have right of way) while turning.
Jaywalking right in front of moving cars is stupid, but jaywalking when traffic is at a stand-still, or when there IS no traffic, is perfectly reasonable. There's no reason to ticket people for it.
Jaywalking right in front of moving cars is stupid, but jaywalking when traffic is at a stand-still, or when there IS no traffic, is perfectly reasonable. There's no reason to ticket people for it.
82
80: Wow; stretching a jaywalking issue to an "overly-PC-hippie-liberal-seattle" issue. Something tells me that you're one of those people who finds a way to relate every issue under the sun to overly-PC hippies.
The people who jaywalk right in front of my car, in the dark, in the rain (according to my experience) tend to be doing so because they're on METHAMPHETAMINE. Not because of some liberal PC anti-car conspiracy culture clash.
The people who jaywalk right in front of my car, in the dark, in the rain (according to my experience) tend to be doing so because they're on METHAMPHETAMINE. Not because of some liberal PC anti-car conspiracy culture clash.
83
@37 I was talking about rainier in general, not that intersection. obviously there are places where ceosswalks should be used, and to be safe as a pedestrian, I would use them. but there are plenty more examples on rainier where confining yourself to the few and inaccessible crosswalks is like a penalty. I don't blame people for weighing the consequences and sprinting across the street.
84
@78: The key to crossing the street in Vietnam is to just keep walking at a steady pace. The motor traffic figures out how to move around you. It is truly terrifying at first, but you get used to it.
85
Telsa @79:
1. (b)
2. Who cares? The difference between those three choices is, at this point, trivial.
3. None of the above. (b) and (c) were important factors, but durability was probably the key consideration: roads used to wash away a lot.
1. (b)
2. Who cares? The difference between those three choices is, at this point, trivial.
3. None of the above. (b) and (c) were important factors, but durability was probably the key consideration: roads used to wash away a lot.
86
@72 - Since I don't mindlessly walk out in front of moving cars, it isn't really an issue, is it?
87
@54 Nobody has said anything that defends or explains his incompetence. The guy took a stupid situation involving a ticketable offense and turned it into a clusterfuck with girls jumping on his back and guys running up on him with video cameras. That is not how a good cop would do it. That is not stellar police work. But a good cop might also be more worried about real crimes rather than jay walking.
He might be trainable, but I think it is more likely he is just a Barney Fife.
He might be trainable, but I think it is more likely he is just a Barney Fife.
88
" I was talking about rainier in general"
@83 Well guess what, this didn't happen on 'Rainier in general'...this happened at a particular spot, next to a school where a pedestrian bridge was built because kids have been hit and killed there before.
Now if we're going to have a new rule that says 'young black kids are allowed to run across dangerous streets and ignore pedestrian bridges and jay walking laws', then fine but put it in writing, a big fucking sign on that street that says:
'Hey black people, we're so fucking liberal and tolerant we don't give a shit if you get run over'.
@83 Well guess what, this didn't happen on 'Rainier in general'...this happened at a particular spot, next to a school where a pedestrian bridge was built because kids have been hit and killed there before.
Now if we're going to have a new rule that says 'young black kids are allowed to run across dangerous streets and ignore pedestrian bridges and jay walking laws', then fine but put it in writing, a big fucking sign on that street that says:
'Hey black people, we're so fucking liberal and tolerant we don't give a shit if you get run over'.
89
At busy intersections in downtown Denver, jaywalking is not only legal, it's encouraged... complete with signals and diagonal crosswalks.
90
As someone who spent a lot of time driving up Rainier to downtown I have to say that the corner where the incident happened yesterday is always chaos - the mornings especially. Kids and bus commuters are darting across the street and it impedes the flow of traffic. Sure, jay walking might need to be decriminalized but that incident in that area yesterday shouldn't be your example.
92
@88 the issue is not jaywalking or letting some people break the laws and not others. the issue I brought up in my earlier posts is poor planning that leads to a lack of accessibility for pedestrians. this is what compells me to jaywalk when I feel the planning is unreasonable and breaking traffic laws would be a safer, more logical, and/or convenient choice to get across the street. here is a good examination of the accessibility question:
http://anstreetsblog.net/2010/06/11/life…
http://anstreetsblog.net/2010/06/11/life…
94
"osts is poor planning that leads to a lack of accessibility for pedestrians"
Again, irrelevant to this case and this blog entry.
Go to your urban planning blog for that debate.
Again, irrelevant to this case and this blog entry.
Go to your urban planning blog for that debate.
95
@85: In short, history matters.
1) B is correct.
2) Given where this first came to pass, it prefaces an era associated with the automobile and its then-newfound predominance over all other modes of mobility. the answer, by the way, is C.
Though the law was originally passed in 1925, the enforcement signs were erected by 1930. (Norton 2008, 77–8). What's interesting is that car drivers of the day (mostly well-to-do on leisurely rides) were briefly referred to as "jay drivers". In D.C., two municipal traffic engineers fundamentally fought over this — one decrying pedestrians as jaywalkers who needed to be removed from the street (where they had always been before the 1910s when leisure car drivers and "automobile clubs" made their hasty appearance), while the other argued that calling pedestrians "jaywalkers" was disingenuous and that reckless drivers needed to be reined in.
3) It's actually C. (Karnes 2009, 9–10; Paxson 1929[2007], 165). In descending importance, B, D (after about 1905), and then A.
1) B is correct.
2) Given where this first came to pass, it prefaces an era associated with the automobile and its then-newfound predominance over all other modes of mobility. the answer, by the way, is C.
Though the law was originally passed in 1925, the enforcement signs were erected by 1930. (Norton 2008, 77–8). What's interesting is that car drivers of the day (mostly well-to-do on leisurely rides) were briefly referred to as "jay drivers". In D.C., two municipal traffic engineers fundamentally fought over this — one decrying pedestrians as jaywalkers who needed to be removed from the street (where they had always been before the 1910s when leisure car drivers and "automobile clubs" made their hasty appearance), while the other argued that calling pedestrians "jaywalkers" was disingenuous and that reckless drivers needed to be reined in.
3) It's actually C. (Karnes 2009, 9–10; Paxson 1929[2007], 165). In descending importance, B, D (after about 1905), and then A.
96
"lack of accessibility for pedestrians"
The only 'lack of accessibility' at that section of road was those fat bitches inability to access the use of their legs to use the stairs to get across via the bridge.
The only 'lack of accessibility' at that section of road was those fat bitches inability to access the use of their legs to use the stairs to get across via the bridge.
97
@92: Well said, and thank you.
No one has yet brought up the problem with pedestrian timers. It's problematic for two reasons. First, it fosters the encouragement for drivers to race to beat the light for, say, a left or right turn, increasing pedestrian danger.
The other is that the lack of on-demand responsiveness, coupled with a limited window of legally and "safely" crossing the intersection, will soon be of utmost importance politically for boomers who, after spending their entire lives driving and suddenly unable to pass a driving test for driving as an elder citizen, will turn their political heft over to making streets far more amenable to their own mobility. Except this change to gently find its way into civic discourse over the coming two decades. The irony is that it was the boomer generation's push to the third- and fourth-tier suburbs built from the 1970s to the 2000s which will become the boomer's greatest barrier to their own mobility. This is why urban property development is certain to increase while poorer citizens are relegated to the abandoned, yet large houses out at the periphery.
Ray Suarez discussed this in earnest eleven years ago, and it's now starting to become visible for the first time.
No one has yet brought up the problem with pedestrian timers. It's problematic for two reasons. First, it fosters the encouragement for drivers to race to beat the light for, say, a left or right turn, increasing pedestrian danger.
The other is that the lack of on-demand responsiveness, coupled with a limited window of legally and "safely" crossing the intersection, will soon be of utmost importance politically for boomers who, after spending their entire lives driving and suddenly unable to pass a driving test for driving as an elder citizen, will turn their political heft over to making streets far more amenable to their own mobility. Except this change to gently find its way into civic discourse over the coming two decades. The irony is that it was the boomer generation's push to the third- and fourth-tier suburbs built from the 1970s to the 2000s which will become the boomer's greatest barrier to their own mobility. This is why urban property development is certain to increase while poorer citizens are relegated to the abandoned, yet large houses out at the periphery.
Ray Suarez discussed this in earnest eleven years ago, and it's now starting to become visible for the first time.
98
dan is not just talking about that incident. he's talking about jaywalking, traffic patterns and urban planning as larger complex issues. please, please, please read the entire original post
99
@97, part 2: To more succinctly explain point #2: the timers, if they reveal to an elderly or mobility impaired pedestrian that they won't have enough time to safely cross, will actually render them immobile. Suddenly a road assumes the unfortunate role of an impassable barrier. If their social gathering place is across the way, it means they risk losing touch with that which makes them a part of their community.
It's simple, if not simplistic to poo-pooh this, but as it has already begun, this really goes beyond a transportation policy or infrastructure planning issue. It becomes a social integrity issue as well as a community issue.
It's simple, if not simplistic to poo-pooh this, but as it has already begun, this really goes beyond a transportation policy or infrastructure planning issue. It becomes a social integrity issue as well as a community issue.
100
Telsa: Los Angeles would certainly have been my guess for the first jaywalking law. But well before 1930 there were campaigns and signage discouraging (and stigmatizing) jaywalking all across the country. It doesn't really matter where the first law was passed - it was a national movement.
I love the idea of jay drivers. Pedestrians and drivers share a right to use the street. It should be obvious that drivers, surrounded as they are by motorized steel, have a greater duty of care than pedestrians.
I love the idea of jay drivers. Pedestrians and drivers share a right to use the street. It should be obvious that drivers, surrounded as they are by motorized steel, have a greater duty of care than pedestrians.
101
Oh yes, one more thing: some jaywalkers prefer crossing in between legal crossings because, as is argued, one can see traffic coming from both ways — whereas being at en intersection, one must also consider traffic from behind and ahead making turns. Where blind spots are concerned, this presents an increased safety risk for an intersection-bound pedestrian crossing.
That said, I do get frustrated when I'm cycling through a downtown core and some jackoff makes a mid-street crossing without a) looking both ways first and b) frequently doing so with a handheld up to one's ear and an attention removed to some far-off place.
That said, I do get frustrated when I'm cycling through a downtown core and some jackoff makes a mid-street crossing without a) looking both ways first and b) frequently doing so with a handheld up to one's ear and an attention removed to some far-off place.
102
@100: Yes, there were a myriad of campaigns, most of them unofficial, against the "jay-walker" — mostly by the motor clubs and by automakers like the Packard Automobile Company. In 1922, they erected monuments in the style of then-common tombstones for children killed, but instead the tombstones would blame the dead victims for jay-walking in front of a joyrider.
1922 was also around the time, I think, that the infamous parade spectacle of a hobo clown being bumped every couple of meters by a Ford Model T to the raucous applause of by-standers (by-walkers? jay-standers? heh). But the campaigns of the new motorists wanting a monopoly over roads and arterials began in earnest in the 1910s as these motor clubs began to form individually in cities. Cincinnati I recall was one hotbed of political activity for the motor club and an early victory over pedestrians and bicyclists, but I'll have to dig through my old references to confirm that. I remember seeing the political ad for that at one time. Nasty stuff.
1922 was also around the time, I think, that the infamous parade spectacle of a hobo clown being bumped every couple of meters by a Ford Model T to the raucous applause of by-standers (by-walkers? jay-standers? heh). But the campaigns of the new motorists wanting a monopoly over roads and arterials began in earnest in the 1910s as these motor clubs began to form individually in cities. Cincinnati I recall was one hotbed of political activity for the motor club and an early victory over pedestrians and bicyclists, but I'll have to dig through my old references to confirm that. I remember seeing the political ad for that at one time. Nasty stuff.
103
@87 Since you seem to be an authority on how to handle volatile situations, I'm assuming you've been through police training? You certainly sound like an expert.
Everyone in the situation is human, and everyone is prone to making mistakes. The cop tried to dole out a routine violation, had some people get WAY TOO riled up about said violation, and the situation got out of hand. It could've gotten a lot worse, he could've been a lot more forceful, but as it stands, it's pretty obvious that the girls involved were in the wrong, regardless of it being a bullshit ticket.
Everyone in the situation is human, and everyone is prone to making mistakes. The cop tried to dole out a routine violation, had some people get WAY TOO riled up about said violation, and the situation got out of hand. It could've gotten a lot worse, he could've been a lot more forceful, but as it stands, it's pretty obvious that the girls involved were in the wrong, regardless of it being a bullshit ticket.
104
@87 Since you seem to be an authority on how to handle volatile situations, I'm assuming you've been through police training? You certainly sound like an expert.
Everyone in the situation is human, and everyone is prone to making mistakes. The cop tried to dole out a routine violation, had some people get WAY TOO riled up about said violation, and the situation got out of hand. It could've gotten a lot worse, he could've been a lot more forceful, but as it stands, it's pretty obvious that the girls involved were in the wrong, regardless of it being a bullshit ticket.
Everyone in the situation is human, and everyone is prone to making mistakes. The cop tried to dole out a routine violation, had some people get WAY TOO riled up about said violation, and the situation got out of hand. It could've gotten a lot worse, he could've been a lot more forceful, but as it stands, it's pretty obvious that the girls involved were in the wrong, regardless of it being a bullshit ticket.
105
@36: There are plenty of breaks in traffic. I don't jaywalk INTO THE PATH of cars. If I'm crossing against the light (and the lights at Ellis and Midway Plaisance usually necessitate that if I'm in any sort of hurry), I don't make cars stop for me; I wait for my chance. That's responsible jaywalking.
@64: That's what I'm talking about. Responsible jaywalking should not be ticketed.
@71: Well said.
@30: TROLL HARDER, F@GG0T!
@31: Are you shitting me? I grew up on the North Side, in a mostly-white neighborhood, and just finished my first year at college on the South Side, living in a ~95% black neighborhood. Jaywalking is jaywalking, Lovely Linda. I see no noticeable difference between the rates of jaywalking by blacks or by whites. Again, you just seem to be grasping at straws in the misguided hopes that one of them will justify your resentment of people different from you. And all you're doing is making yourself seem like trailer trash.
@47: http://abcnews.go.com/International/wire…
BOOM SHAKALAKA!
@58: The sticky 't' key is the least of your worries. Lighten up, Francis. You and Lovely Linda are just as bad as your "kill whitey" counterpart wackos.
@64: That's what I'm talking about. Responsible jaywalking should not be ticketed.
@71: Well said.
@30: TROLL HARDER, F@GG0T!
@31: Are you shitting me? I grew up on the North Side, in a mostly-white neighborhood, and just finished my first year at college on the South Side, living in a ~95% black neighborhood. Jaywalking is jaywalking, Lovely Linda. I see no noticeable difference between the rates of jaywalking by blacks or by whites. Again, you just seem to be grasping at straws in the misguided hopes that one of them will justify your resentment of people different from you. And all you're doing is making yourself seem like trailer trash.
@47: http://abcnews.go.com/International/wire…
BOOM SHAKALAKA!
@58: The sticky 't' key is the least of your worries. Lighten up, Francis. You and Lovely Linda are just as bad as your "kill whitey" counterpart wackos.
106
was posting from my cell before - here is the pedestrian accessibility link for those interested: http://preview.tinyurl.com/2vna3uh
107
Have to agree with Dan on this. When you think about all the square footage given over directly or indirectly to cars in an average city, the occasional person darting across the street seems like a nice little show of rebellion. Lets all those folks in cars know that someday they too might be walking.
108
Why do you automatically assume that streets are for cars? For centuries, they weren't. Streets were for people. It's just that motor traffic is the biggest bully and has shoved everyone else to the sidewalks. Cars stink, make noise, use up too much space, cut through communities and places, maim and kill people. I say ban them from our streets.
109
Wow, Seattle, quite an outpouring of racism in this and the previous thread. Damn. I'll think of this next time the theme emerges about how much more progressive and enlightened you are than certain "other" parts of the country that get dissed a lot around here.
110
What a great thread! So many thoughtful and generally accurate assessments, from Dan, from @76, from @92, etc.
@80 has it completely backward: In cities with active jaywalking cultures, people become better jaywalkers, and you see fewer stupid moves on the part of pedestrians. Drivers, in turn, cease to expect that they can drive on autopilot, and they learn a much better balance of offense/defensive and always-alert driving than Seattleites have at present.
All you doubters, try jaywalking (looking for cops, which unfortunately detracts from your safe awareness of your surroundings) from 1st & Pine up to Broadway sometime. It's only 1 mile. Ignoring the REALLY LONG "don't walk" lights will cut your journey time in half. And you'll really feel the momentum in your journey (you'll never want to take the damned 49 again).
Jaywalking doesn't just improve urban mobility; it's ESSENTIAL to it.
@80 has it completely backward: In cities with active jaywalking cultures, people become better jaywalkers, and you see fewer stupid moves on the part of pedestrians. Drivers, in turn, cease to expect that they can drive on autopilot, and they learn a much better balance of offense/defensive and always-alert driving than Seattleites have at present.
All you doubters, try jaywalking (looking for cops, which unfortunately detracts from your safe awareness of your surroundings) from 1st & Pine up to Broadway sometime. It's only 1 mile. Ignoring the REALLY LONG "don't walk" lights will cut your journey time in half. And you'll really feel the momentum in your journey (you'll never want to take the damned 49 again).
Jaywalking doesn't just improve urban mobility; it's ESSENTIAL to it.
111
24
Wow it looks like a lot of Seattle's wimpy white-guilt progressives are finally getting sick of the never-ending onslaught of Typical Negro Behavior and monkeyshines from seattle's teenapers. Celebrate all the amazing benefits of Divershitttty issuing forth from these unevolved people of shit color and size.
Wow it looks like a lot of Seattle's wimpy white-guilt progressives are finally getting sick of the never-ending onslaught of Typical Negro Behavior and monkeyshines from seattle's teenapers. Celebrate all the amazing benefits of Divershitttty issuing forth from these unevolved people of shit color and size.
112
@110 not too clear on what was backward about what I said. Yes jaywalking is common in NYC but it is much more the case that the jaywalkers have the sense to not walk into traffic than that drivers are more likely to look out for them. I think most drivers in NYC are completely intolerant of idiots walking into traffic, it is rightly considered to be stupid behaviour. Try doing that there and you will very likely get an earful if you don't wind up run over. The biggest problem in this city is the dippy politeness meme that infects a majority of the population. It is more or less expected that cars will politely stop, no horn, no invective, whenever you deign to step out in front of them. Then there is the widespread attitude that being on foot confers some sort of moral superiority.
113
I'm from Philadelphia and I love to jaywalk and I'll never stop doing it. I'd like to see Seattle cops take a break from citing jaywalkers. Maybe then Seattle drivers will learn not to slam on their breaks if a pedestrian even lets her toes inch off the curb, and then spend the next 5 minutes maniacally waving her across the street, despite the oncoming traffic in other lanes that she'd prefer not to get crushed by. It's much more dangerous to have jaywalking laws than simply allowing liberty of movement.
114
@110: You said that incompetent jaywalking in Seattle was the result of a "dippy anti-car attitude."
In fact, this city's still-very-real auto-supremacy -- lights timed only for smooth flow of passenger vehicles; very long don't-walk signals (often 90% of the light cycle); perpetual hostility to jaywalkers -- is why Seattleites haven't developed good jaywalking skills/rhythms.
My other statement -- that drivers too become more alert when not feeling entitled to supremacy -- was a corollary and was not a direct response to anything you said.
In fact, this city's still-very-real auto-supremacy -- lights timed only for smooth flow of passenger vehicles; very long don't-walk signals (often 90% of the light cycle); perpetual hostility to jaywalkers -- is why Seattleites haven't developed good jaywalking skills/rhythms.
My other statement -- that drivers too become more alert when not feeling entitled to supremacy -- was a corollary and was not a direct response to anything you said.
116
Dan, it IS a crime, and you citing some crunchy book doesn't prove anything.
It's a small crime, to be sure. But when you jaywalk, you take the following chances:
1) you could be hit by a car
2) you could be hit by a bike
3) you could cause an accident
4) you might get a citation
5) if you resist #4, you might bet busted.
These are occupational hazards. Maybe they're worth it, maybe not. But if you're the one jaywalking, it's nobody else's fault.
It's a small crime, to be sure. But when you jaywalk, you take the following chances:
1) you could be hit by a car
2) you could be hit by a bike
3) you could cause an accident
4) you might get a citation
5) if you resist #4, you might bet busted.
These are occupational hazards. Maybe they're worth it, maybe not. But if you're the one jaywalking, it's nobody else's fault.
117
Dan--
I've lived a few blocks from your hood in Chicago, where there's a culture of jaywalking. I've lived in Pasadena, where there's a culture of crosswalk-only. Cops will ticket you here for jaywalking and also ticket cars for failing to yield.
Your argument is irrelevant for students near a school. No school, even in Chicago, would put up with students jaywalking.
In about 1982, jaywalking was common on Dodge Avenue by ETHS. Then two cars-- who were racing each other, apparently-- hit a student who was jaywalking. The student was thrown about 20 feet into the air and died shortly after landing. The street was caked with blood and feathers from his down jacket.
Immediately afterward, the response was "why was nothing done about jaywalking?".
The community in this case has asked the cops to get ahead of the issue and change the culture of the students. If the cops don't respond with ticketing, they'll be on the hook for incidents of kids getting hit.
I've lived a few blocks from your hood in Chicago, where there's a culture of jaywalking. I've lived in Pasadena, where there's a culture of crosswalk-only. Cops will ticket you here for jaywalking and also ticket cars for failing to yield.
Your argument is irrelevant for students near a school. No school, even in Chicago, would put up with students jaywalking.
In about 1982, jaywalking was common on Dodge Avenue by ETHS. Then two cars-- who were racing each other, apparently-- hit a student who was jaywalking. The student was thrown about 20 feet into the air and died shortly after landing. The street was caked with blood and feathers from his down jacket.
Immediately afterward, the response was "why was nothing done about jaywalking?".
The community in this case has asked the cops to get ahead of the issue and change the culture of the students. If the cops don't respond with ticketing, they'll be on the hook for incidents of kids getting hit.
118
I jaywalk all the time and got a ticket when I crossed in front of a car. I deserved that. The problem with jay walking in Seattle is the hills. Where I crossed it was difficult to see the cars coming and had to run out of the way. I basically ran up to a waiting cop. Did not see him and the car was bombing down the hill. Jay walking in New York is easy. Jay walking in Seattle requires skill. I don't recommend it for newcomers.
119
I recently got a ticket for going about 10 miles over the speed limit while passing a car on I-5. It was really not a dangerous manuever and it's obvious the State Patrol needed to up their quota. By that standard, jaywalking is a much more dangerous situation, as the pedestrian could easily die in a worst case scenario.
The state and city need revenue, so it's CYA time when you're driving or walking around downtown Seattle. That being said, I'm tired of drivers being made to feel that they're evil carbon-polluting monsters. I'm also tired of pedestrians thinking they can trump any rules of the road because they're "saving the planet."
The state and city need revenue, so it's CYA time when you're driving or walking around downtown Seattle. That being said, I'm tired of drivers being made to feel that they're evil carbon-polluting monsters. I'm also tired of pedestrians thinking they can trump any rules of the road because they're "saving the planet."
120
"dippy politeness meme that infects a majority of the population."
Seattleite:
I was wondering if you had thought through that statement. Making generalizations can always be a bit ...well, something you should maybe think through? so i'd like to ask you to consider that and also think about the effect of reading that on the people who might not have been the places you've been, we should recognize that their feelings are important. We want to make sure everyone feels validated whether or not they have had the benefit of coming from a I guess you'd call it a jay walking frriendly place or from around here, and we can all agree that it's wonderful to have the diverse cultures we have represented here, don't you agree?
Noo Yawker: shut the fuck up asshole.
(You pick which one is more real, honest, communicative, and human!)
Seattleite:
I was wondering if you had thought through that statement. Making generalizations can always be a bit ...well, something you should maybe think through? so i'd like to ask you to consider that and also think about the effect of reading that on the people who might not have been the places you've been, we should recognize that their feelings are important. We want to make sure everyone feels validated whether or not they have had the benefit of coming from a I guess you'd call it a jay walking frriendly place or from around here, and we can all agree that it's wonderful to have the diverse cultures we have represented here, don't you agree?
Noo Yawker: shut the fuck up asshole.
(You pick which one is more real, honest, communicative, and human!)
121
@117: As a recent grad of ETHS, I can tell you that jaywalking is back. (Although right before and after school hours, they post crossing guards at major crossing points to direct pedestrians and vehicles, so it's no longer a huge problem.) We're cautious about crossing Dodge (mostly), but we don't have a whole lot of respect for crossing lights.
But I'd honestly never heard that story before. Thanks, I guess...
But I'd honestly never heard that story before. Thanks, I guess...
122
Jaywalking has and will continue to get people killed, not by cops, but by cars. Anyone who can't understand that basic fact of life is simply too stupid to live in a modern society. Unfortunately, there are people out there who get some sort of arrogant or perverse pleasure about disrupting traffic by jaywalking, even to the point of causing traffic accidents, as they stroll across a busy street. Cross walks and overpasses are there to protect pedestrians, use them. Too many perople are just too lazy or completely oblivious to reality, in the case of many high school and college students, to walk a block or two to a controlled intersection that would generally ensure their safety. So much for one of my pet peeves. Sorry for the rant.
I'll vent about another pet peeve, inattentive drivers texting or using their cell phones, some other time, but mix the two and you'll inevitably have tragedies. By the way gas taxes still pay for most road construction/repairs (and bike paths for that matter) in this country. I freely admit I may wrong about this since I haven't researched the subject, but anectdotaly that's how it works in the Loony Tunes Peoples Republik of Madison. Only took em about 50 years to build Monona Terrace (had to make sure FLW was long dead before doing something so sensible)
I'll vent about another pet peeve, inattentive drivers texting or using their cell phones, some other time, but mix the two and you'll inevitably have tragedies. By the way gas taxes still pay for most road construction/repairs (and bike paths for that matter) in this country. I freely admit I may wrong about this since I haven't researched the subject, but anectdotaly that's how it works in the Loony Tunes Peoples Republik of Madison. Only took em about 50 years to build Monona Terrace (had to make sure FLW was long dead before doing something so sensible)
123
@122: Your understanding of the skill and etiquette of jaywalking couldn't be more ass-backward.
@105 said it best: "There are plenty of breaks in traffic. I don't jaywalk INTO THE PATH of cars. If I'm crossing against the light, I don't make cars stop for me; I wait for my chance. That's responsible jaywalking."
@113 also hits it on the nose: "Maybe then Seattle drivers will learn not to slam on their breaks if a pedestrian even lets her toes inch off the curb, and then spend the next 5 minutes maniacally waving her across the street, despite the oncoming traffic in other lanes that she'd prefer not to get crushed by. It's much more dangerous to have jaywalking laws than simply allowing liberty of movement."
@122, you also blabber that "cross walks and overpasses are there to protect pedestrians..."
Pedestrian overpasses and signalized crosswalks (which tend to grossly favor auto momentum at the expense of pedestrian momentum) are NOT there to protect pedestrians. They are there to make life easier for motorists. To the point of convincing most to give up on walking and remain motorists. Seriously, do you ever see anybody on these things? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Paseoo…
@105 said it best: "There are plenty of breaks in traffic. I don't jaywalk INTO THE PATH of cars. If I'm crossing against the light, I don't make cars stop for me; I wait for my chance. That's responsible jaywalking."
@113 also hits it on the nose: "Maybe then Seattle drivers will learn not to slam on their breaks if a pedestrian even lets her toes inch off the curb, and then spend the next 5 minutes maniacally waving her across the street, despite the oncoming traffic in other lanes that she'd prefer not to get crushed by. It's much more dangerous to have jaywalking laws than simply allowing liberty of movement."
@122, you also blabber that "cross walks and overpasses are there to protect pedestrians..."
Pedestrian overpasses and signalized crosswalks (which tend to grossly favor auto momentum at the expense of pedestrian momentum) are NOT there to protect pedestrians. They are there to make life easier for motorists. To the point of convincing most to give up on walking and remain motorists. Seriously, do you ever see anybody on these things? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Paseoo…
124
Fuck you Dan.
I wait at Don't Walk signs, just like I don't run red lights when I'm driving. Jaywalkers are self-important, pretentious assholes. You so fucking important you can't wait for the signal like the rest of us? I wait. You absolutely HAVE to have that mid-block diagonal crossing? No. No you don't. Drivers have enough random crap to watch out for without jaywalkers wandering everywhere.
I also don't cross mid-block. I look for crosswalks. With Washington's "crosswalk at every intersection" system, there's always some tiny side street within a few dozen yards that provides a perfectly legal crossing, without even having to wait for a light to change. NO FUCKING EXCUSE to not use one.
This particular case. Jaywalker crossing a congested 6-lane arterial *with a pedestrian overpass right the fuck there*. And the cop was there in front of the school, at the school's request, to do a jaywalking patrol.
It's not so bad if they'd at least look both ways before jaywalking. I spent many years as a delivery driver in this city, and I can tell you that Seattle jaywalkers NEVER fucking look. They just stroll on out into the 30mph flow, and then smack your roof for having the gall to be there.
I wait at Don't Walk signs, just like I don't run red lights when I'm driving. Jaywalkers are self-important, pretentious assholes. You so fucking important you can't wait for the signal like the rest of us? I wait. You absolutely HAVE to have that mid-block diagonal crossing? No. No you don't. Drivers have enough random crap to watch out for without jaywalkers wandering everywhere.
I also don't cross mid-block. I look for crosswalks. With Washington's "crosswalk at every intersection" system, there's always some tiny side street within a few dozen yards that provides a perfectly legal crossing, without even having to wait for a light to change. NO FUCKING EXCUSE to not use one.
This particular case. Jaywalker crossing a congested 6-lane arterial *with a pedestrian overpass right the fuck there*. And the cop was there in front of the school, at the school's request, to do a jaywalking patrol.
It's not so bad if they'd at least look both ways before jaywalking. I spent many years as a delivery driver in this city, and I can tell you that Seattle jaywalkers NEVER fucking look. They just stroll on out into the 30mph flow, and then smack your roof for having the gall to be there.
126
I deal with all modes of transit. I ride my bike to and from work. I take the bus. I drive my kids to school. I drive the bus for a living.
This thread is driving me nuts.
A traffic signal is not about absolute control. It is about taking turns. It isn't always auto-centric. The Easy-West has to wait to take turns with the North-South cars as well as pedestrians.
When people jaywalk without regard to turn, it is no different then the asshole that runs the red light.
If there isn't any traffic, why should pedestrians wait? I jaywalk all the time; as long as I do not interfere with someone's rightful turn.
I can't tell you how many times I have missed a light driving Joe Metro because some conceited ass not only jaywalks, but slowly. It isn't just the guy whom seems as if he ran out of meds, but more often it is the suburbanite with shopping bags and kids in tow.
Seattle has a true problem with a holier then thou attitude. This incident just drips with it.
That particular intersection has a pedestrian overpass. Regardless, hordes of Franklin kids press into the streets and run across. I wish I could count the number of times I have refused to board an individual because they risked life and limb to catch a bus.
There is always another bus; there will never be another you.
Taking turns is something you should be taught at least by kindergarten.
This thread is driving me nuts.
A traffic signal is not about absolute control. It is about taking turns. It isn't always auto-centric. The Easy-West has to wait to take turns with the North-South cars as well as pedestrians.
When people jaywalk without regard to turn, it is no different then the asshole that runs the red light.
If there isn't any traffic, why should pedestrians wait? I jaywalk all the time; as long as I do not interfere with someone's rightful turn.
I can't tell you how many times I have missed a light driving Joe Metro because some conceited ass not only jaywalks, but slowly. It isn't just the guy whom seems as if he ran out of meds, but more often it is the suburbanite with shopping bags and kids in tow.
Seattle has a true problem with a holier then thou attitude. This incident just drips with it.
That particular intersection has a pedestrian overpass. Regardless, hordes of Franklin kids press into the streets and run across. I wish I could count the number of times I have refused to board an individual because they risked life and limb to catch a bus.
There is always another bus; there will never be another you.
Taking turns is something you should be taught at least by kindergarten.
127
I challenge you Dan to put up a proper etiquette in jaywalking article. There are times when it is acceptable, and times when it isn't, and times WTF? Please consult several sources: peds, bikes, cars, trucks, and buses.
128
@127: As you yourself wrote, jaywalking is the right thing to do when there's no traffic around.
I would add that it's also proper for cars to yield in the winter, or during a bad rainstorm, when drivers can put up with a 2 minute delay if it gets pedestrians out of the foul weather a little faster.
I would add that it's also proper for cars to yield in the winter, or during a bad rainstorm, when drivers can put up with a 2 minute delay if it gets pedestrians out of the foul weather a little faster.
129
Only stiff penalties affect behavior.
Either the $45 jaywalking infraction needs to increase enough to effectively deter jaywalking, or car operators need to be penalized to effectively deter their poor behavior. I vote for the latter. But then I'd also vote for one DUI = lost licence forever or for a long time (10 years?) and also losing the privilege of registering a vehicle for driving on the road. Owning a vehicle, say for a collector, would be ok, just not getting current registration.
Either the $45 jaywalking infraction needs to increase enough to effectively deter jaywalking, or car operators need to be penalized to effectively deter their poor behavior. I vote for the latter. But then I'd also vote for one DUI = lost licence forever or for a long time (10 years?) and also losing the privilege of registering a vehicle for driving on the road. Owning a vehicle, say for a collector, would be ok, just not getting current registration.
130
Jaywalking can be fine in many situations, and on many streets, clearly it is not safe on others. I Jaywalk all the time downtown and on Capitol Hill but I rarely do it on busy streets in those neighborhoods (1st ave, Broadway).
Clearly jaywalking has been an issue at this location, that is the reason the cop was there in the first place. He/the department was trying to change the behavior in this particular spot in order to improve safety and traffic flow.
These kids get a big thrill out of jaywalking slowly in large groups in this spot (I've seen it), hopefully they will get the message.
Clearly jaywalking has been an issue at this location, that is the reason the cop was there in the first place. He/the department was trying to change the behavior in this particular spot in order to improve safety and traffic flow.
These kids get a big thrill out of jaywalking slowly in large groups in this spot (I've seen it), hopefully they will get the message.
131
Yes! Jaywalking is a great thing. I encourage people to do it all the time. Let's take back our streets!!
132
In this city, there are two laws.
One for those of us who are white and live in certain neighborhoods, mostly north of the ship canal.
And one for those of us who aren't white and live in the rest of the city.
In the first law, you won't get clocked.
In the second law, if they don't taser or mace you, they'll punch your lights out.
One for those of us who are white and live in certain neighborhoods, mostly north of the ship canal.
And one for those of us who aren't white and live in the rest of the city.
In the first law, you won't get clocked.
In the second law, if they don't taser or mace you, they'll punch your lights out.
133
Good Afternoon Dan,
Regarding yesterday’s scuffle, first of all, I admit I jaywalk. But, I am fully prepared to be cited should I be well… sighted by a police officer. I selectively jaywalk. I look both ways to see that there is virtually no traffic in either direction. It’s shocking how oblivious many youngsters are when jaywalking. What with gazing at their hand held devices and sporting earphones, it’s no wonder they can’t see or hear traffic. It is also amazing how many drivers drive in the wrong direction on two-lane, one way streets (Roosevelt Way NE comes to mind). I also use a pedestrian bridge or tunnel if nearby. I use crosswalks and wait for traffic lights to change to green to walk across a street. I believe jaywalking is an offense (not necessarily an incarcerating crime) to traffic and pedestrian safety. The law should be enforced. It’s there for drivers and pedestrians alike. Should a pedestrian get struck it is the driver that is liable. That said, what the two young ladies did AFTER the officer stopped them was unacceptable. I would NEVER shout at, evade and/or resist an armed officer of the law. They were foolish. The punch the officer delivered was in self-defense. He acted quite reasonable considering the hostile crowd around him. The two young ladies haven’t a leg to stand on.
Regarding yesterday’s scuffle, first of all, I admit I jaywalk. But, I am fully prepared to be cited should I be well… sighted by a police officer. I selectively jaywalk. I look both ways to see that there is virtually no traffic in either direction. It’s shocking how oblivious many youngsters are when jaywalking. What with gazing at their hand held devices and sporting earphones, it’s no wonder they can’t see or hear traffic. It is also amazing how many drivers drive in the wrong direction on two-lane, one way streets (Roosevelt Way NE comes to mind). I also use a pedestrian bridge or tunnel if nearby. I use crosswalks and wait for traffic lights to change to green to walk across a street. I believe jaywalking is an offense (not necessarily an incarcerating crime) to traffic and pedestrian safety. The law should be enforced. It’s there for drivers and pedestrians alike. Should a pedestrian get struck it is the driver that is liable. That said, what the two young ladies did AFTER the officer stopped them was unacceptable. I would NEVER shout at, evade and/or resist an armed officer of the law. They were foolish. The punch the officer delivered was in self-defense. He acted quite reasonable considering the hostile crowd around him. The two young ladies haven’t a leg to stand on.
134
As a driver who has lived in the midwest where jaywalking is common, I think it's much easier and more efficient to condone jaywalking. In Seattle we have this strange culture where people will walk up to a corner that has no light, or to a crosswalk, and stand there waiting for cars to stop even if the cars are far enough away that people could easily make it across without waiting. We also have an active street life, which means that people stand on the street chatting and it's not always clear who's wanting to cross the road. Cities where jaywalking is expected have a much greater degree of flow, because everyone is judging for themselves and engaged, and body language makes the intent much more clear. Drivers may have to take their foot off the gas and coast to allow a pedestrian enough time to get across, but there's far less actual stopping.
135
Jaywalkers Unite! Enough is enough, Seattle needs to grow up and give up on trying to be our mommy! We know how to cross the street thank you very much, so leave us alone.
Civil disobedience is what's called for, jaywalk everyday everywhere until the police give up on enforcing this ridiculous law. You are not required by law to have an ID on you while walking, so don't show them one, and then see if they want to escalate every single case. Simply state you don't have an ID, don't answer any of their questions and repeatedly ask "Am I free to go." If enough of us don't stand for this garbage maybe the police will be forced to do their job and focus on real crimes.
Civil disobedience is what's called for, jaywalk everyday everywhere until the police give up on enforcing this ridiculous law. You are not required by law to have an ID on you while walking, so don't show them one, and then see if they want to escalate every single case. Simply state you don't have an ID, don't answer any of their questions and repeatedly ask "Am I free to go." If enough of us don't stand for this garbage maybe the police will be forced to do their job and focus on real crimes.
136
If jaywalking isn't a crime then using jaywalkers as speed bumbs shouldn't be one either. That's right folks, I'm that bitch that speeds up when you jaywalk in front of me.
137
@ 132 - No, Will, you're wrong.
Race played no part in what happened on Monday. The "issue" of race in this incident has only been raised by, wait for it..... racists.
The cop did not hit the young lady because he is white and she is black. The cop hit the young lady because the young lady hit him first. And yes, he did indeed show a great deal of restraint in dealing with the situation.
The real issue at work here is Entitlement: why these young people feel they have it, the harm it is doing and will do to their lives. And, since the parents of these girls have come forward and said that, in their opinion, their daughters did nothing wrong, we also have the concept of Generational Entitlement to contend with.
Now THAT is a discussion with which we, as a society, ought to be engaged.
Race played no part in what happened on Monday. The "issue" of race in this incident has only been raised by, wait for it..... racists.
The cop did not hit the young lady because he is white and she is black. The cop hit the young lady because the young lady hit him first. And yes, he did indeed show a great deal of restraint in dealing with the situation.
The real issue at work here is Entitlement: why these young people feel they have it, the harm it is doing and will do to their lives. And, since the parents of these girls have come forward and said that, in their opinion, their daughters did nothing wrong, we also have the concept of Generational Entitlement to contend with.
Now THAT is a discussion with which we, as a society, ought to be engaged.
138
Oh goody, here come these little honeys rap sheets: assaults, robberies, obstruction, punching a cop.
139
@102. Jesus Christ do you copy and paste all your shit from some sort of boredom blog, you long-winded prig?
140
I was ticketed for jaywalking on 2nd and Pike four years ago. At the time, the 15-minute cop lecture I got was more annoying than the ~$45 fine, but I ignored it and watched a meth deal happen behind the lecturing cop and went on my way. Crossing a one-way street with no traffic felt pretty safe, unless I managed to fall down and break my skull, but the cop really wanted me to understand that a gazillion people are killed jaywalking every week (or something like that).
I also had a good friend get hit by a Community Transit bus on 3rd Ave about a decade ago; she was crossing with the light and the bus sailed straight through it and sent her flying.
Driving around Franklin HS during school hours drives me nuts, though. The kids have an overpass, and don't use it (ugh, stairs!), and crossing that section of Rainier Ave is a lot more like crossing Aurora than it is 2nd Ave, it's right by a huge intersection where there's rarely a gap in traffic.
Downtown/Cap Hill and Old Town Ballard are dense enough that it's not hard to be safe while jaywalking--and at least once it might've been safer than crossing with the light. That's not true of all neighborhoods, though, particularly when it comes to major arterials.
I also had a good friend get hit by a Community Transit bus on 3rd Ave about a decade ago; she was crossing with the light and the bus sailed straight through it and sent her flying.
Driving around Franklin HS during school hours drives me nuts, though. The kids have an overpass, and don't use it (ugh, stairs!), and crossing that section of Rainier Ave is a lot more like crossing Aurora than it is 2nd Ave, it's right by a huge intersection where there's rarely a gap in traffic.
Downtown/Cap Hill and Old Town Ballard are dense enough that it's not hard to be safe while jaywalking--and at least once it might've been safer than crossing with the light. That's not true of all neighborhoods, though, particularly when it comes to major arterials.
141
So, in all seriousness, can we start a measure to get this law reversed? I've always thought it was a vaguely fascist law. Something that doesn't belong in the Pacific northwest.
142
just designate the entire street a crosswalk... problem solved
we need to return our streets back to people... motorists stole our streets from all other street users decades ago and turned our streets into dangerous throughfares exclusively for cars.
how about we start holding motorists accountable for murdering pedestrians. shoot a person with a gun, get life in prison. hit them with your car and you wont even get a slap on the wrist.
we need to return our streets back to people... motorists stole our streets from all other street users decades ago and turned our streets into dangerous throughfares exclusively for cars.
how about we start holding motorists accountable for murdering pedestrians. shoot a person with a gun, get life in prison. hit them with your car and you wont even get a slap on the wrist.
143
"In fact, studies have shown that pedestrians are safer in urban areas where jaywalking is common than they are in urban areas where it is forbidden."
Source please.
Source please.
144
@75 "Jaywalker steps into path of cyclist on fixie tearing down Denny with no helmet on.
Blood everywhere!
"
you forgot:
the pit bull puppy
being thrown at the QFC shoplifter
who was making up a new definition/name of a sex act based on a political person's last name.
Dan-Savage-brand mad libs are FUN!
Blood everywhere!
"
you forgot:
the pit bull puppy
being thrown at the QFC shoplifter
who was making up a new definition/name of a sex act based on a political person's last name.
Dan-Savage-brand mad libs are FUN!
145
Nobody has specifically said this, so I will:
The masses of Seattle sheep "waiting their turn" and then strutting triumphantly at a snail's pace across the intersection when they get their light cause A LOT of right-turning gridlock in this city:
1. Nobody jaywalks, leading to a buildup at the curb over the course of a light cycle.
2. Light turns green; masses proceed.
3. Cars waiting to turn right never get a window to do so.
4. The right lane backs up, often for multiple light cycles.
5. As usual, bus riders get screwed most, as they're stuck behind right-turning cars they can't maneuver around.
So actually, @124, that makes YOU the self-important asshole. When I (safely) jaywalk, I'm out of the way long before the light changes.
The masses of Seattle sheep "waiting their turn" and then strutting triumphantly at a snail's pace across the intersection when they get their light cause A LOT of right-turning gridlock in this city:
1. Nobody jaywalks, leading to a buildup at the curb over the course of a light cycle.
2. Light turns green; masses proceed.
3. Cars waiting to turn right never get a window to do so.
4. The right lane backs up, often for multiple light cycles.
5. As usual, bus riders get screwed most, as they're stuck behind right-turning cars they can't maneuver around.
So actually, @124, that makes YOU the self-important asshole. When I (safely) jaywalk, I'm out of the way long before the light changes.
146
For the last decade or so, Seattle has averaged around 7 pedestrian deaths per year; NYC averaged more than 200. After you account for the 14x greater population, NYC's pedestrian fatality rate is more than TWICE that of Seattle. Anyone arguing that Seattle pedestrians and drivers should mimic those of NYC does not have the best interests of pedestrians in mind.
147
Wow, @146:
That would be a scary number if you hadn't just made it up (actual number is about half of that)!
And if New Yorkers didn't each walk hundreds upon hundreds of miles more per year than Seattleites!
For what it's worth, Boston has a MUCH more entrenched jaywalking culture than New York's (and even more aggressive drivers, arguably with better reflexes), and is consistently ranked among the nation's safest cities for pedestrians.
That would be a scary number if you hadn't just made it up (actual number is about half of that)!
And if New Yorkers didn't each walk hundreds upon hundreds of miles more per year than Seattleites!
For what it's worth, Boston has a MUCH more entrenched jaywalking culture than New York's (and even more aggressive drivers, arguably with better reflexes), and is consistently ranked among the nation's safest cities for pedestrians.
148
A message to all the anti-jaywalking intransigents on this thread who have clearly lived in Seattle too long:
1. Don't start giving advice about how successful pedestrian cities function. You have no clue.
2. While you're at it, don't make any claims about how cities with public transit function. You have no clue.
3. Don't purport to know anything about living in a city where people have the slightest sense of common goals, think about the consequences of their actions on those around them, are capable of sharing urban space reasonably, and don't behave like self-centered pricks at all times. You have no clue.
1. Don't start giving advice about how successful pedestrian cities function. You have no clue.
2. While you're at it, don't make any claims about how cities with public transit function. You have no clue.
3. Don't purport to know anything about living in a city where people have the slightest sense of common goals, think about the consequences of their actions on those around them, are capable of sharing urban space reasonably, and don't behave like self-centered pricks at all times. You have no clue.
150
You're wrong on this one, Dan
First, if you drive, try making a right turn downtown during rush hour, then get back to me.
Next, there is a world of difference between jaywalking in downtown (at rush hour or otherwise) and jaywalking across MLK-Rainier. They built that overpass for a reason. But sadly, you can't tailor laws that way.
Next, remember that the cop was asked to be there by the school because the school was worried about the kid's safety.
Finally, yes it started as a traffic stop and it escalated. It stopped being about jaywalking and became resisting and interfering with an arrest. But the biggest thing of all: I don't care who you are, what gender you are, or what color you are, if you put a hand on a cop, you will be hurt, period. I think the officer showed admirable restraint in use of force seeing as he was outnumbered in a confrontation.
First, if you drive, try making a right turn downtown during rush hour, then get back to me.
Next, there is a world of difference between jaywalking in downtown (at rush hour or otherwise) and jaywalking across MLK-Rainier. They built that overpass for a reason. But sadly, you can't tailor laws that way.
Next, remember that the cop was asked to be there by the school because the school was worried about the kid's safety.
Finally, yes it started as a traffic stop and it escalated. It stopped being about jaywalking and became resisting and interfering with an arrest. But the biggest thing of all: I don't care who you are, what gender you are, or what color you are, if you put a hand on a cop, you will be hurt, period. I think the officer showed admirable restraint in use of force seeing as he was outnumbered in a confrontation.
151
@150:
Right-turning downtown: see my explanation @145. Jaywalking would help, not hinder, this.
"You can't tailor laws that way."
Actually, you can:
"Jaywalking laws shall be a minimum enforcement priority, except in the presence of a purpose-built pedestrian overpass or explicit signage."
Or it could be treated as a secondary offense: only enforceable when the suspect is stopped for another crime (a jaywalk in a location like this may have constituted reckless endangerment).
Or you could just put a fence in the median of MLK, directly underneath the overpass, and be done with it.
Right-turning downtown: see my explanation @145. Jaywalking would help, not hinder, this.
"You can't tailor laws that way."
Actually, you can:
"Jaywalking laws shall be a minimum enforcement priority, except in the presence of a purpose-built pedestrian overpass or explicit signage."
Or it could be treated as a secondary offense: only enforceable when the suspect is stopped for another crime (a jaywalk in a location like this may have constituted reckless endangerment).
Or you could just put a fence in the median of MLK, directly underneath the overpass, and be done with it.
152
I would just love to read all the commentary denying/excusing the absolutely vicious racism on display here, but I've used up all my Sanity Watchers points for today.
Holy fucking hell, people who are all, 'well, if you don't follow the rules, this is what you get' - do you have any idea how many statutes there are on the books today? Jillions. Know why only some of them are enforced at any given moment? Because of the personal prejudices of the enforcers.
So, to all the stupid white boys apologizing for what you perceive as non-existent racism, the reason you don't see racism? Is because you choose not to. Also, you don't live with it every day, so you have the privilege to choose not to see it. Black girls crossing the street who are *punched in the face* for being aggressed upon by an angry white douchebag in a uniform ARE reacting appropriately for their circumstances. They expect to be treated unfairly by hostile white asshats because they LIVE WITH THAT REALITY EVERY FUCKING DAY. It does not take very many days of living black to learn to expect that pattern to repeat itself. Jesus, you willful idiots are the worst fucking kind.
Holy fucking hell, people who are all, 'well, if you don't follow the rules, this is what you get' - do you have any idea how many statutes there are on the books today? Jillions. Know why only some of them are enforced at any given moment? Because of the personal prejudices of the enforcers.
So, to all the stupid white boys apologizing for what you perceive as non-existent racism, the reason you don't see racism? Is because you choose not to. Also, you don't live with it every day, so you have the privilege to choose not to see it. Black girls crossing the street who are *punched in the face* for being aggressed upon by an angry white douchebag in a uniform ARE reacting appropriately for their circumstances. They expect to be treated unfairly by hostile white asshats because they LIVE WITH THAT REALITY EVERY FUCKING DAY. It does not take very many days of living black to learn to expect that pattern to repeat itself. Jesus, you willful idiots are the worst fucking kind.
153
Jaywalking is absolutely legal. This is the reason:
If I sail my giant yacht in Lake Washington, and toot my horn, guess what. All the bridges have to go up. Even if there are 500 cars waiting, the boat can stop all of them. Reason? Because the law is written so that the route that was there first has primacy.
Now, which came first...cars or feet?
See...every pedestrian legally has the same right as a billionaire in a yacht on Lake Washington. We were here first. If we cross the street, all cars should legally come to a stop. If we cross at the crosswalk, the light should immediately go to "Walk". If we were to cross I-5, legally, the cars should all stop.
Legally.
154
Good for the Seattle police, getting those hardened jaywalkers off the streets and out of our communities. :/
Our priorities for "justice" in this country are f*cked. We have cops wasting the vast majority of their taxpayer-funded time pursuing petty victimless "crimes" like jaywalking and pot possession - while 95% of our rapists go unconvicted, we have the highest gun-death rate in the developed world, and our domestic violence rates are increasing. The main goal of such idiotic jaywalking stops is intimidation, plain and simple.
Also, I'm a white woman. I've jaywalked a f*cking gazillion times in my life, at least a few directly in front of cops, possibly drunk, and have never been stopped. Cops make decisions about who to stop and when, and there's no doubt that intangible emotional factors, ranging from latent racial stereotypes/profiling to simply whether the cop feels like picking up that speeder or not, come into play. Random intimidation by cops for stupid "offenses" does not safety (or justice) make.
Our priorities for "justice" in this country are f*cked. We have cops wasting the vast majority of their taxpayer-funded time pursuing petty victimless "crimes" like jaywalking and pot possession - while 95% of our rapists go unconvicted, we have the highest gun-death rate in the developed world, and our domestic violence rates are increasing. The main goal of such idiotic jaywalking stops is intimidation, plain and simple.
Also, I'm a white woman. I've jaywalked a f*cking gazillion times in my life, at least a few directly in front of cops, possibly drunk, and have never been stopped. Cops make decisions about who to stop and when, and there's no doubt that intangible emotional factors, ranging from latent racial stereotypes/profiling to simply whether the cop feels like picking up that speeder or not, come into play. Random intimidation by cops for stupid "offenses" does not safety (or justice) make.
156
Why not put up a couple of blocks of cyclone fencing at that location? Force them to use the bridge or walk around. Look at how much they are spending on the Aurora Bridge to keep nutjobs from jumping to their death. What is it $6 million?
157
This "little girl" just walked out into traffic forcing motor to have to slow and stop just for her. She had a chip on her shoulder. Trotting across the street with a gap in traffic after looking both ways is one thing. challenging them, knowing they would not dare hit them is another. Screw the dangers to the pedestrians in this case. The danger was to the driver who had to stop and other motorist around her.
158
Cars should not have more privileges on the road than pedestrians. The problem is that everyone thinks it is okay to enter their well-defended metal cage and drive across the road, onto the road, and around the road at any point they like. While people think that pedestrians should "stay off the road", they are denying the one mode of transportation we all have in common - walking. Everyone walks to and from their destination. Once you park, you have to walk that last leg of your journey. Almost all of us have to cross a road or two, unless we live so posh as to drive into our incubated pod and out without ever touching the mean streets.
If a car is allowed to cross the road at a spot, pedestrians should be allowed to cross at the same point.
The intersection where the incident occurred is a nightmare. You can cross on three out of four sides. There is no explanation why you cannot cross on the fourth side and of the three it is perhaps the safest to cross on foot. The bridge is a half block away, plus a long spiral staircase up, and does not feel safe. The number of criminal incidents that have occurred as people lurked in the shadows at the top of the bridge is staggering. No wonder people feel safer dashing across the road instead. The road there has two periods where no cars are crossing, except in the right turn lane, and there is plenty of time to cross as a pedestrian.
Improve the design of the intersection, don't punish the pedestrians.
If a car is allowed to cross the road at a spot, pedestrians should be allowed to cross at the same point.
The intersection where the incident occurred is a nightmare. You can cross on three out of four sides. There is no explanation why you cannot cross on the fourth side and of the three it is perhaps the safest to cross on foot. The bridge is a half block away, plus a long spiral staircase up, and does not feel safe. The number of criminal incidents that have occurred as people lurked in the shadows at the top of the bridge is staggering. No wonder people feel safer dashing across the road instead. The road there has two periods where no cars are crossing, except in the right turn lane, and there is plenty of time to cross as a pedestrian.
Improve the design of the intersection, don't punish the pedestrians.
159
I believe we should have police ticket those who don't jaywalk. The girls in the video looked quite 'chunky.' A little dashing, darting, and dodging across the street would do them good. As a bonus, the city could make much more fine revenue by ticketing non-jays than jays.
I have always been somewhat of a fitness fanatic. Now in my fifties, I can still dart across the street with the best. Here is a tip for you people: sprint across the street, then when you cross, just casually keep running, as though from inertia. Keep running for at least a half-block or so. I guarantee that no seattle cop, belly full of donuts, will bother to chase after you. I've been doing it that way for years and never once got a ticket.
I have always been somewhat of a fitness fanatic. Now in my fifties, I can still dart across the street with the best. Here is a tip for you people: sprint across the street, then when you cross, just casually keep running, as though from inertia. Keep running for at least a half-block or so. I guarantee that no seattle cop, belly full of donuts, will bother to chase after you. I've been doing it that way for years and never once got a ticket.
160
I haven't been back in a long while, and as many of you would agree I'd prefer to continue staying away. But this was actually a great point on Dan's part and I couldn't help but chime in.
Also, I love how commenters missed the point of this post. I don't think Dan was so much defending the incident in question so much as sparking a larger discussion about jaywalking in general, since the incident brought it up.
Dan did say the girls should have been left alone, but mainly because he generally believes cops should just make it a zero priority and focus their energies on more worthwhile issues. Yes, those girls were out of line and mainly just looking for a fight. But that cop's got better things to do, especially in a relatively tough precinct on the south side. Somebody probably got assaulted, harassed, mugged or robbed or had their stuff taken a few blocks down the street, and that might not have happened if this cop wasn't wasting his time trying to ring up belligerent jaywalkers.
Also, I love how commenters missed the point of this post. I don't think Dan was so much defending the incident in question so much as sparking a larger discussion about jaywalking in general, since the incident brought it up.
Dan did say the girls should have been left alone, but mainly because he generally believes cops should just make it a zero priority and focus their energies on more worthwhile issues. Yes, those girls were out of line and mainly just looking for a fight. But that cop's got better things to do, especially in a relatively tough precinct on the south side. Somebody probably got assaulted, harassed, mugged or robbed or had their stuff taken a few blocks down the street, and that might not have happened if this cop wasn't wasting his time trying to ring up belligerent jaywalkers.
161
If you can cross the street safely, do it.
Seattlites exhibit a deep-rooted inability to claim their space. This goes for the walking dead staring at the red hand on an empty street, as well as well-intentioned drivers dangerously yielding for peds out of misguided "politeness". Dangerous assholes will cross the street recklessly regardless of petty fines, why discourage the responsible ones with a blanket ordinance?
Be aware, be predictable, and know your/others limitations.
Seattlites exhibit a deep-rooted inability to claim their space. This goes for the walking dead staring at the red hand on an empty street, as well as well-intentioned drivers dangerously yielding for peds out of misguided "politeness". Dangerous assholes will cross the street recklessly regardless of petty fines, why discourage the responsible ones with a blanket ordinance?
Be aware, be predictable, and know your/others limitations.
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