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News & ArtsThursday, June 10, 2010
Homo The Secret Agenda of Gay Parents: First We Trick You Into Treating Us Like Human Beings...
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 11:04 AM
The stinking little douche who wrote this for a Catholic newspaper in Boston couldn't bring himself to refer to gay parents as parents or refer to our children as our children. Here's how he gets started:
The question arises of whether children in the custody of (one cannot say, “children of”) same-sex couples should be admitted to Catholic parochial schools.
Michael Pakaluk is against admitting children with gay parents to Catholic schools. The first problem, as he sees it, is the "inevitability of scandal." What kind of scandal? Gay dads blowing each other under the bleachers in the gym during home games? Lesbian moms seducing sexually-frustrated, bi-curious Catholic moms who aren't getting any at home?
It was inevitable that either the teacher, or some parent, would deal with the two men in such a way as implicitly to teach my son, or other children in the class, that there is nothing wrong with same-sex relationships. But this is scandal: that is, leading a “little one” astray in some serious matter by the example you set.
Yes, yes: we wouldn't want teachers and parents treating gay parents like human beings, now would we? (Please ignore that "do unto others" stuff in the Bible—Jesus is omniscient and everything, but he never could have imagined the existence of gay parents.) Maybe Mr. Pakaluk would be more comfortable with same-sex parents if teachers agreed to spit in their faces whenever they're forced to interact with one in front of the impressionable little children?
The second reason is that parents are rightly given access to a child’s classroom, and yet I could not trust the designs of the same-sex couple. A mother or father may volunteer to read to the class or chaperone for a class trip. If the homosexual parent does so, what guarantee would I have that he would not be an advocate for his lifestyle, implicitly if not explicitly? ... I saw this happening in my son’s school. The same-sex couple was interestingly activist in hosting pizza parties, sponsoring tables at fundraisers, and volunteering when parental help was needed.
So let me see if I follow you, Mr. Pakaluk: Even if gay parents refrain from reading aloud from And Tango Makes Three or the Leatherman's Handbook in front of a room full of third-graders—and even if we refrain from arranging pepperonis into meaty little rainbows on the pizzas we serve at our depraved "pizza parties"—just the presence of gay parents in the classroom "implicitly" advocates for "the gay lifestyle." I can see why you would object to that: the gay lifestyle is a depraved and deranged one, as everyone knows, and our lives are wholly dedicated to the pursuit of hedonistic sexual pleasures. Reading to schoolchildren, acting as chaperones on class trips, and hosting pizza parties—we're not doing any of that because, oh, we care about our children and we're interested in helping out. Those are all just ploys to mask our real agenda. Which is to get hardcore gay pornography into the hands of Catholic schoolchildren who aren't lucky enough to have gay parents:
The third reason is that it seemed a real danger that the boy being raised by the same-sex couple would bring to school something obscene or pornographic, or refer to such things in conversation, as they go along with the same-sex lifestyle, which—as not being related to procreation—is inherently eroticized and pornographic. He might expose other children to such things, as he might easily have encountered them in his household.
Pornography plays no role whatsoever in the "straight lifestyle." Straight parents don't view pornography. Straight parents don't indulge in non-procreative sex acts. Straight sex isn't "inherently eroticized"—let's take a moment here to extend our sympathies to poor Mrs. Pakaluk—and straight sex doesn't make a good pornographic subject because the procreative element ruins the fun for everybody. Which is why there's no such thing as straight porn.
Look, I'm not interested in sending my kid—a baptized Catholic just like his culturally Catholic dad—to a Catholic grade school, and I'm a little mystified by gay parents who want to send their kids to Catholic schools. Even if I wasn't worried about my kid being taught to "hate the sin"—the only upside Mr. Pakaluk can see to kids with gay parents attending Catholic schools—I would be concerned about my kid encountering ranting, raving sex-negative nut cases like Mr. Pakaluk here. Odds are good that my kid is going to be straight when he grows up and Mr. Pakaluk is not the kind of heterosexual role model I want my kid exposed to.
5
I went to a catholic high school because it was a better education than the public school system. While there, my disdain for the faith deepened, I rebelled in a variety of ways, explored my bisexuality, and influenced the younger generation to take after me. (Last year I had a casual fling with a woman who had looked up to me in high school.) Oh, and I graduated with excellent grades and got a good college education. Thanks Catholic School!
6
Straight parents never would let youths encounter porn. They just don't do that...oh wait.
He obviously missed the story of the teacher accidentally sending home an elementary student with a porn DVD instead of a photo CD from a class event. Turns out her husband had helped her package the photo CDs and had accidentally put one of his porns in there.
But, man, watch out for those gays, eh?
He obviously missed the story of the teacher accidentally sending home an elementary student with a porn DVD instead of a photo CD from a class event. Turns out her husband had helped her package the photo CDs and had accidentally put one of his porns in there.
But, man, watch out for those gays, eh?
7
I don't care if the collective catholic church murdered its pope in a horribly painful, sexual humiliating way. Even such acts of greatness could never compensate for the evil, hateful damage it has caused for gay people and our families for centuries.
8
I spent thirteen years in Catholic school, and even without exposure to *gasp* pornography or *gasp* OUT homosexuals I managed to learn some pretty dirty things. Hell I learned about sex when a friend traced the diagrams out of the encyclopedia and brought them to school in second grade. We pored over them at recess, not quite being able to believe that's how it worked.
Oh god suddenly I feel very old.
Oh god suddenly I feel very old.
9
"The same-sex lifestyle" is a new one to me. It sounds kinda hot though, with all its eroticism and pornography.
10
Next thing you know, Mr. Pakaluk will be insisting that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to parent children because children raised by homosexuals have reduced educational opportunities . . . because homophobic schools kick those kids out.
11
Christ alive, what a raving pillock. I think claiming that the home lives of gay couples are inherently more eroticized than biologically-reproducing couples says more about the speaker than the subject.
Also his remarks about the children of same sex parents being 'in their custody' is not only cruel, it's inaccurate. Lots of gay parents, especially lesbians, are raising their own biological offspring. This whiny little rodent probably assumes they can't be arsed to give birth or something and just stole them from the nearest coffee shop filled with proper, hetero parents who can be trusted to throw pizza parties with no ulterior motives.
Also his remarks about the children of same sex parents being 'in their custody' is not only cruel, it's inaccurate. Lots of gay parents, especially lesbians, are raising their own biological offspring. This whiny little rodent probably assumes they can't be arsed to give birth or something and just stole them from the nearest coffee shop filled with proper, hetero parents who can be trusted to throw pizza parties with no ulterior motives.
12
When we have had straight coworker's over to the house for the first time, they always seem to be on the look out for the erotica. There is almost disappointment in women's eyes when the most erotic/phallic thing in our home is a large collection of candlesticks on the mantle. The men enter with trepidation, then relax when there are not dildos and gay mags on the coffee table. Both genders seem to be surprised.
13
I went to Catholic school. I lived three blocks away and they tried to charge us out-of-parish tuition (double the in-parish cost) because we didn't put enough money in the collection plate (they sent us pre-stamped envelopes to the parishoners - not just those with kids -to use so they could track). I was pulled out in 6th grade when my male (lay) teacher was sitting all the girls on his lap and putting his hand on their thighs under their skirts.
Oh, and let's not forget the priest who was "relocated" for exchanging pot for sexual favors from the high school boys. http://michaelbaumann.wordpress.com/2010…
Oh, and let's not forget the priest who was "relocated" for exchanging pot for sexual favors from the high school boys. http://michaelbaumann.wordpress.com/2010…
14
I did not realize there were conservative online Catholic newspapers trying to draw a bonehead readership, but I suppose I am not surprised to learn of it here. What a worm.
15
I spent a year enrolled in a Catholic school, and it was sheer, unendurable misery from start to finish. I can't imagine willingly exposing ANY children to that daily horror - but then again, I'm just an unbaptised, garden-variety heathen who would presumably go straight to Hell if I subscribed to any of their chosen flavor of nonsense - so, go figure.
16
It looks like the editor later took pains to distance the paper from the stance the guest editorial writer took. Next week maybe you should invite him to write a "What the Fuck? With Mike Pakaluk" guest column.
17
@12 - that is hilarious. It would literally never have dawned on me that a gay/lesbian couple's house would be more likely to have erotica. I wonder if they think all gay men are like the ones in The Birdcage?
It's like, in the minds of anti-gay folks, male homosexuality is synonymous with "sexual predator" or "male nymphomaniacs". I remember having a conversation a few years ago with a friend of mine's (religious) wife. We were talking about gay marriage, and it veered into gay adoption. When I indicated my support of gay adoption, she said "you mean, you actually think they could be good parents?" It was as if I had suggested that a drug addict or a pedophile or a person with mental illness could be a good parent. I truly believe she had never considered the possibility that some people have no problem with gays adopting children. We were halfway through a 4 hour road trip together at the time of this conversation... fun times.
It's like, in the minds of anti-gay folks, male homosexuality is synonymous with "sexual predator" or "male nymphomaniacs". I remember having a conversation a few years ago with a friend of mine's (religious) wife. We were talking about gay marriage, and it veered into gay adoption. When I indicated my support of gay adoption, she said "you mean, you actually think they could be good parents?" It was as if I had suggested that a drug addict or a pedophile or a person with mental illness could be a good parent. I truly believe she had never considered the possibility that some people have no problem with gays adopting children. We were halfway through a 4 hour road trip together at the time of this conversation... fun times.
18
Same-sex couples will corrupt the children and expose them to inappropriate sexual things. Better off leaving them in the hands of the priests.
19
Poor Mr. Pakaluk... doesn't he realize that a "same-sex lifestyle" household (tangent, what if the child is a different sex than the parents, is it still a same-sex lifestyle?) is NOT the same as the backroom of the leather bars he frequents.
20
Stinking Little Douche, indeed!
Dan, your last line is the most FTW thing I've seen in a month of Sundays.
Dan, your last line is the most FTW thing I've seen in a month of Sundays.
22
Dan, I don't understand why you still call yourself a 'cultural' Catholic. What does that even mean? Why continue to associate yourself with the most vile, corrupt, misogynist organization on the planet? Would you call yourself a 'cultural' pedophile? Or a cultural gay-basher? What about the Catholic Church has such appeal that you, someone they actively try to shame and oppress, feel compelled to keep affiliating yourself with it?
I'm asking you, because I want to ask my wife the same damn questions, but don't want to spend the summer sleeping on the couch.
I'm asking you, because I want to ask my wife the same damn questions, but don't want to spend the summer sleeping on the couch.
24
OK, seriously, fuck any homo parents who fail to see the hypocracy of sending their kids to Catholic School. Is it really worth sending money to a corrupt organisation to keep your kids out of public school?
26
This guy is really, really projecting his sexual fantasies onto what he imagines to be the "lifestyle" of gay parents. Obscenity, pornography - hell, sex ALL THE TIME, anywhere in the house, as he supposes the child is the constant witness to the parents' sex life. If the author's intentions and implications weren't so malignant, the imagery would make you laugh - can't you picture some kid keeping a spray-bottle of water and lemon juice on hand in case their gay parents lose control and start humping like dogs?
Also @22 Richard Dawkins calls himself a "cultural Christian" - meaning the society he grew up in, the culture with which he is most familiar is Christian - not that he believes Jeebus is his saviour. I suppose Dan means something similar.
Also @22 Richard Dawkins calls himself a "cultural Christian" - meaning the society he grew up in, the culture with which he is most familiar is Christian - not that he believes Jeebus is his saviour. I suppose Dan means something similar.
27
"...children in the custody of (one cannot say, “children of”)..."
WTF? It's like he's been fantasizing so much about hot non-procreative lesbian-on-lesbian action that he forgot that lesbians have functioning uteri just like heterosexual women. And sometimes they get used for procreative purposes just like nature intended.
Hey Mr. Catholic asshole, my sister was adopted. Do you believe that she was never my sister, but only a "child in the custody of" my parents? Or are you saying that legally adopted children of straight parents should enjoy a privileged status above legally adopted children of gay parents? Nice family values you got there.
WTF? It's like he's been fantasizing so much about hot non-procreative lesbian-on-lesbian action that he forgot that lesbians have functioning uteri just like heterosexual women. And sometimes they get used for procreative purposes just like nature intended.
Hey Mr. Catholic asshole, my sister was adopted. Do you believe that she was never my sister, but only a "child in the custody of" my parents? Or are you saying that legally adopted children of straight parents should enjoy a privileged status above legally adopted children of gay parents? Nice family values you got there.
29
Besides being a simple paranoid bigot, he goes on to not only insult all adopted children and their parents, but parents who are, God forbid, active in their children's school.
Drop your little shit off, make sure you don't make a scene, and be sure to get your tuition checks on time. Sounds like a great education model. Boston, once again, you suck.
Drop your little shit off, make sure you don't make a scene, and be sure to get your tuition checks on time. Sounds like a great education model. Boston, once again, you suck.
30
@22 - Speaking as someone who grew up in a devout family, the culture just becomes a part of you, whether you want it to or not, whether you have moved beyond it or not. You may reject the theology and the morality and the misogyny and the homophobia and the hypocracy and everything else, but you can't help holding on to the culture. That's ultimately why it took me so long to actually leave - I began rejecting the churchin 4th grade in Catholic school because I wasn't allowed to be an altar server because I was a girl.
For the record, I am still a practicing Christian, but in a much more sane denomination - one that pays more than just lip service to the primacy of conscience in moral decision making.
For the record, I am still a practicing Christian, but in a much more sane denomination - one that pays more than just lip service to the primacy of conscience in moral decision making.
31
News flash: I have two different lesbian friends who have born their very own children our of their very own uteri within the last year. This is not magic. These are really "children of" lesbians, not in the "custody" of lesbians.
Get a clue, moron.
Get a clue, moron.
32
Mr. Pakaluk is clearly a douche, but . . .
Your kid would be welcome at the catholic school nearest your home - St. Joe's. My three kids go there, and there are a number of gay and lesbian couples there with kids (as well as other non-Catholic families). I don't want to speculate on their reasons, but I do know my kids aren't picking up anti-gay bias there (or at home).
That does not, in any way, make up for the shameful behavior of Rome. But at least in our little corner of the world, the focus is on the other catholicism - feed the hungry, heal the sick, comfort the afflicted . . .
and do your math homework!
Your kid would be welcome at the catholic school nearest your home - St. Joe's. My three kids go there, and there are a number of gay and lesbian couples there with kids (as well as other non-Catholic families). I don't want to speculate on their reasons, but I do know my kids aren't picking up anti-gay bias there (or at home).
That does not, in any way, make up for the shameful behavior of Rome. But at least in our little corner of the world, the focus is on the other catholicism - feed the hungry, heal the sick, comfort the afflicted . . .
and do your math homework!
33
(Sigh)
Dear "Family Values" asswipes. You cannot simultaneously call yourselves "pro-family" and then build a career out of attacking other people's families. Jesus.
Dear "Family Values" asswipes. You cannot simultaneously call yourselves "pro-family" and then build a career out of attacking other people's families. Jesus.
34
Mr. Pakaluk is not the kind of heterosexual role model I want my kid exposed to.
As many other commenters have mentioned, Dan, the chances that this guy is closeted seem high. Where's the resolution to start presuming closetedness of anyone who spouts bullshit like this?
As many other commenters have mentioned, Dan, the chances that this guy is closeted seem high. Where's the resolution to start presuming closetedness of anyone who spouts bullshit like this?
35
@22: Even apart from the definition @26 proposes, being Catholic doesn't necessarily include supporting the Catholic Church, as far as I'm concerned.
36
Hey, RTM...
I'm sorry to say—and this was not intentional on our part—that my kid is a rabid religionophobe. We couldn't send him to a Catholic school if we wanted to. Fingers crossed that he doesn't pull a 180 on us in ten years and wind up in a Baptist seminary somewhere.
I know St. Joe's is a good place—lots of our wonderful neighbors send their kids to Joe's.
I'm sorry to say—and this was not intentional on our part—that my kid is a rabid religionophobe. We couldn't send him to a Catholic school if we wanted to. Fingers crossed that he doesn't pull a 180 on us in ten years and wind up in a Baptist seminary somewhere.
I know St. Joe's is a good place—lots of our wonderful neighbors send their kids to Joe's.
38
"[S]omething obscene or pornographic, or refer to such things in conversation, as they go along with the same-sex lifestyle, which—as not being related to procreation—is inherently eroticized and pornographic."
The most detestable "pornographic" video I've ever seen is "2 girls, 1 cup" - and that, my dear fine Mr Catholic Boydiddler, was produced by and for heterosexuals.
I wouldn't want my kids being taught by teh straights. Imagine the damage.
The most detestable "pornographic" video I've ever seen is "2 girls, 1 cup" - and that, my dear fine Mr Catholic Boydiddler, was produced by and for heterosexuals.
I wouldn't want my kids being taught by teh straights. Imagine the damage.
39
What a very strange and perverse place this little man's mind is. I was reared by lesbians (one of whom, yes, it happens, Mr. Asswipe) bore me from her very own womb. I never, EVER, saw anything even remotely sexual from them while I was growing up. It wasn't until years later that I even realized they had been gay - that they shared a bed, that all their friends were women who lived in pairs. It was not until my mother decided not to be a lesbian anymore (my mother is mildly psycho) and married a man that I was exposed to anything inappropriate.
40
Yeah, pornography wasn't a part of my straight (and conservative Republican) parents' sex life AT ALL. Which is why I NEVER EVER found myself reading a stack of Playboy magazines underneath my father's desk at the age of 3 because I thought the cartoons were funny looking.
What a douchebag.
Am I incorrect in thinking that it seems a bit suspect that this man is so terrified that his children will catch "the gay"? As he presumably did?
What a douchebag.
Am I incorrect in thinking that it seems a bit suspect that this man is so terrified that his children will catch "the gay"? As he presumably did?
41
I love St. Joe's - when I was eight a St. Joe's boy a little older was happy to show me what early-onset puberty looked like.
42
Unbelievable. I just fired off one hell of a letter to his editor. Something about how he should probably be more concerned about the priests at that school -- especially in Boston.
43
"a baptized catholic, just like his culturally catholic dad",...yuk, I'm surprized and disappointed. To even be nominally associated w/ the organization most responsible for labeling you "an abomination" while supporting their ministers' perverted behavior w/ children is a shame of the worst kind, in my mind. Have some balls Dan and dare to leave that hideous religion based on fables. It will be the best example you can be to your son instead of perpetuating this crippling way of thinking.
44
SASS, Dan IS culturally Catholic. So am I. I abhor the Catholic Church for a number of reasons, but it's the faith my family follows, and it DID have a part in my upbringing. Like it or not, I cannot erase its influence from my life, and it does give me a common ground with my relatives, even if they are a mostly secular bunch. Church bingo can basically unite all my cousins for an evening, for example:) It may be a corrupt institution, but it was part of what shaped me (and Dan).
I also think the Church's claims to absolute authority obscure a lot of the good people that are nonetheless a part of the institution. It is by no means as monolithic as it portrays itself to the nonCatholic world. Priests and nuns regularly disobey its dictates and risk its wrath to follow their consciences (often they are treated far worse than the child molestors in the ranks of the clergy). And the Sacred Heart school that I attended from the age of 5 to the age of 10 could only be characterized as diverse and inclusive - it was there that I first began meeting a wide range of people from other cultures and religions. No one was turned away - unlike what we've been seeing with Catholic schools more recently.
I have to say also that took a certain amount of pleasure in the fact that my cousin's daughter was recently baptized by a priest who could only be described as "flamboyantly gay" (reminded me of Charles Nelson Reilly in a robe). After listening to the 6-month-old baby babble on authoritatively to him for several minutes before he performed the baptism, he turned to the gathered crowd and suggested that she would be the first female pope.
But in general, though I renounce the Catholic Church, I can't deny it contributed to who I am and I can't deny all the good people who are apart of it.
More...
I also think the Church's claims to absolute authority obscure a lot of the good people that are nonetheless a part of the institution. It is by no means as monolithic as it portrays itself to the nonCatholic world. Priests and nuns regularly disobey its dictates and risk its wrath to follow their consciences (often they are treated far worse than the child molestors in the ranks of the clergy). And the Sacred Heart school that I attended from the age of 5 to the age of 10 could only be characterized as diverse and inclusive - it was there that I first began meeting a wide range of people from other cultures and religions. No one was turned away - unlike what we've been seeing with Catholic schools more recently.
I have to say also that took a certain amount of pleasure in the fact that my cousin's daughter was recently baptized by a priest who could only be described as "flamboyantly gay" (reminded me of Charles Nelson Reilly in a robe). After listening to the 6-month-old baby babble on authoritatively to him for several minutes before he performed the baptism, he turned to the gathered crowd and suggested that she would be the first female pope.
But in general, though I renounce the Catholic Church, I can't deny it contributed to who I am and I can't deny all the good people who are apart of it.
45
I think it's the difference between belief and knowledge. A cultural Catholic would have knowledge of Catholic doctrine and practices, although they don't believe any of it. They would know how Easter is celebrated and why, as opposed to the holidays of other cultures, such as Eid. They could still enjoy the secular celebrations of the holiday - chocolates and whatnot. It's just a cultural tradition.
46
With all due respect, and I certainly do respect you regardless of your roman catholic affilliations, I never quite understand why it is so difficult for a catholic to disassociate from the faith they were brought up with. I was brought up with the dutch christian reformed church, 12 years of christian school including much church history about catholicism and its doctrines and I well know the rejection by family when one takes a stand against the faith and in fact blames said faith for society's bigotry. Fear of rejection and or 'going to hell' (I know a rediculous concept but still lingers on that back burner) seems a lame excuse to perpetuate any faith responsible for as much pain and bloodshed as the catholic church is in deed responsible for. Intelligence and reason are far more substantial pillars to guide us than some haunting, cultural cling-ons from how one was raised. Once enlightened, I certainly hope a child raised in a KKK home will make the conscious effort to disassociate from that past, even if it is an hourly effort.
I'm sorry if anyone takes offense to my thinking, but it is my quest to rid myself of any fear based religion's affects on me and certainly resolve to not baptize my children into same. Clarity is a wonderful goal but a very difficult one to reach while hanging on to traditions which only contribute to gray, muted thinking.
I'm sorry if anyone takes offense to my thinking, but it is my quest to rid myself of any fear based religion's affects on me and certainly resolve to not baptize my children into same. Clarity is a wonderful goal but a very difficult one to reach while hanging on to traditions which only contribute to gray, muted thinking.
47
Honestly, is the term "lapsed Catholic" going to be easier for people to not write blistering screeds about? He's not "affiliating" himself with Catholicism by mentioning that he was raised Catholic.
48
@46: I think some of it stems from the fact that a lot of the Catholic church IS good. I was an altar boy and I went to Catholic school from Preschool - sophomore year in college. I learned about service to community, personal responsibility and it was actually Jesuit HS & college that helped me learn to question things INCLUDING the church.
I wasn't abused by any priests and I knew nothing of homosexuality until high school . It was actually Cardinal Ratzinger's (amazing, I just was fact checking and found out it was that douchebag, yet again...) investigation into Archbishop Hunthausen being soft on "moral issues" (including homosexuality and divorce) and bringing in Hickey and then Wuerl and Murphy that showed me the true nature of the Church. These weren't people who followed Jesus' teachings. They were hateful people who cared more about power than people.
So I am also a "cultural Catholic," even though I identify Buddhist/Atheist now. I'm proud of the way the Church I was brought up in taught me to care and to think. Too bad it failed and decided to embrace exclusion over inclusion.
I wasn't abused by any priests and I knew nothing of homosexuality until high school . It was actually Cardinal Ratzinger's (amazing, I just was fact checking and found out it was that douchebag, yet again...) investigation into Archbishop Hunthausen being soft on "moral issues" (including homosexuality and divorce) and bringing in Hickey and then Wuerl and Murphy that showed me the true nature of the Church. These weren't people who followed Jesus' teachings. They were hateful people who cared more about power than people.
So I am also a "cultural Catholic," even though I identify Buddhist/Atheist now. I'm proud of the way the Church I was brought up in taught me to care and to think. Too bad it failed and decided to embrace exclusion over inclusion.
49
I don't really think that those of us who are Catholic by birth, but not according to belief systems, are afraid of going to hell or being "[rejected] by family." My family has been Catholic for centuries, and while it's not associated with ethnicity, like Judaism, our heritage and identity are both strongly tied with the church. It's part of what made us who we are.
50
The only reason I'm bisexual is because straight porn doesn't exist. I have to settle for hot, sexy lesbian porn *sigh* What ever shall I do?
51
Totally understand the cultural Catholicism. I practice cultural Judaism and it's great. I believe in no god but get to eat all the great food, celebrate the holidays, and sing the awesome songs of being a Jew.
53
My father never tells people he's Catholic, of any sort, although he was raised in the church. Of course, his parents weren't the most devout Catholics (I don't think my grandfather was in regular attendance at Sunday mass).
But he decided he didn't believe in it anymore after a Sunday school session where a nun told the class that their Jewish friends were all going to hell (and my dad's best friend was Jewish).
But he decided he didn't believe in it anymore after a Sunday school session where a nun told the class that their Jewish friends were all going to hell (and my dad's best friend was Jewish).
55
I must be married to a hologram, because the womb that carried my better half belongs to a lesbian. Good to know.
That said this guy is a sook. And, I pity those who claim that they are for family values and yet go out of their way to attack families.
That said this guy is a sook. And, I pity those who claim that they are for family values and yet go out of their way to attack families.
56
I met my first gay friend at my Catholic high school. He wasn't officially out, (it was 1975) but you couldn't really call him closeted, either - it was a pretty open secret. He was editor of the school paper, another gay kid was president of the student council. Nobody was going around telling us they were abominations.
I learned most of what I know about other world religions in my Catholic high school's religion classes. Learned about the human reproductive system. Learned about compassion, and charity, and how to be a good citizen.
The Catholic hierarchy is a mess, and there are indeed some strange little nutjobs like this guy running around in the church, but most Catholics, even most nuns and priests, are not like that. He's a dangerous little fuckwad though, and the editor deserves his knuckles rapped for giving him a platform.
I learned most of what I know about other world religions in my Catholic high school's religion classes. Learned about the human reproductive system. Learned about compassion, and charity, and how to be a good citizen.
The Catholic hierarchy is a mess, and there are indeed some strange little nutjobs like this guy running around in the church, but most Catholics, even most nuns and priests, are not like that. He's a dangerous little fuckwad though, and the editor deserves his knuckles rapped for giving him a platform.
57
I met my first gay friend at my Catholic high school. He wasn't officially out, (it was 1975) but you couldn't really call him closeted, either - it was a pretty open secret. He was editor of the school paper, another gay kid was president of the student council. Nobody was going around telling us they were abominations.
I learned most of what I know about other world religions in my Catholic high school's religion classes. Learned about the human reproductive system. Learned about compassion, and charity, and how to be a good citizen.
The Catholic hierarchy is a mess, and there are indeed some strange little nutjobs like this guy running around in the church, but most Catholics, even most nuns and priests, are not like that. He's a dangerous little fuckwad though, and the editor deserves his knuckles rapped for giving him a platform.
I learned most of what I know about other world religions in my Catholic high school's religion classes. Learned about the human reproductive system. Learned about compassion, and charity, and how to be a good citizen.
The Catholic hierarchy is a mess, and there are indeed some strange little nutjobs like this guy running around in the church, but most Catholics, even most nuns and priests, are not like that. He's a dangerous little fuckwad though, and the editor deserves his knuckles rapped for giving him a platform.
58
I met my first gay friend at my Catholic high school. He wasn't officially out, (it was 1975) but you couldn't really call him closeted, either - it was a pretty open secret. He was editor of the school paper, another gay kid was president of the student council. Nobody was going around telling us they were abominations.
I learned most of what I know about other world religions in my Catholic high school's religion classes. Learned about the human reproductive system. Learned about compassion, and charity, and how to be a good citizen.
The Catholic hierarchy is a mess, and there are indeed some strange little nutjobs like this guy running around in the church, but most Catholics, even most nuns and priests, are not like that. He's a dangerous little fuckwad though, and the editor deserves his knuckles rapped for giving him a platform.
I learned most of what I know about other world religions in my Catholic high school's religion classes. Learned about the human reproductive system. Learned about compassion, and charity, and how to be a good citizen.
The Catholic hierarchy is a mess, and there are indeed some strange little nutjobs like this guy running around in the church, but most Catholics, even most nuns and priests, are not like that. He's a dangerous little fuckwad though, and the editor deserves his knuckles rapped for giving him a platform.
59
"Michael Pakaluk is Professor of Philosophy at the Institute for the Psychological Sciences in Arlington, VA, where he teaches courses on ethics and the philosophy of marriage and the family. "
So i googled the IPS and low and behold it turns out to be one of those wack job religious institutes pretending to be a real seat of learning. Wikipedia alleges that it is affiliated with the charming Legion of Christ set up by one Marcial Maciel. Google him.
So i googled the IPS and low and behold it turns out to be one of those wack job religious institutes pretending to be a real seat of learning. Wikipedia alleges that it is affiliated with the charming Legion of Christ set up by one Marcial Maciel. Google him.
61
"[S]omething obscene or pornographic, or refer to such things in conversation, as they go along with the same-sex lifestyle, which—as not being related to procreation—is inherently eroticized and pornographic."
--is inherently eroticized and pornographic because it makes Michael Pakaluk's pants feel tight.
--is inherently eroticized and pornographic because it makes Michael Pakaluk's pants feel tight.
62
After reading the above comments, it's apparent that many who were never raised Catholic do have a hard time understanding the connection even "lapsed Catholics" hold to the faith. It's a part of you from birth until whenever.
When you are born, you are baptized, having parents and Godparents stand in your place to announce you are a part of the Catholic faith (because obviously babies can't make such proclamations). From there it is years of Catechism, so that by around the second grade you make your first Confession and first Holy Communion. Then, it is years of CCD (Catholic Christian Doctrine), so that by the time you are around 14 years old, you then go through "Confirmation," which is where "you" stand up and claim to be a part of the Catholic Faith (unlike being Baptized, where other adults make the proclamation for you). After all of that, you simply cannot say that the Catholic Church is not a part of who you are. And, as the Church sees it, you may take a different path in life, but you will always be a Catholic. Nothing will ever change that, by their thinking.
I'm not a "lapsed" Catholic, but I will admit to being a "Cafeteria" Catholic (The Vatican actually came up with that label, for American Catholics, not me). Meaning, that American Catholics have generally ignored the hateful rules coming out of Rome, and were more open to being socially liberal. In other words, picking the "good" stuff, and ignoring the "bad" or "hateful."
And like others that have mentioned, I too was an Alter Boy, and never had one Priest be inappropriate with me, or my brothers. Nor had I ever sat in a Mass where the Priest hammered on gays. Never. All the "gay hating" comes out of Rome. Nor can one say that the Church is filled with only pedophiles. It is not. There certainly was some terrible Priest, but that shouldn't reflect on all of the Priest. The ones I was raised around were kind and caring individuals.
For the most part, I'd say the majority of people that are Catholic and the Priests and Nuns are good people too, and often do not support the divisive attitudes and rules that come out of the Vatican.
Sorry for being so long-winded.
More...
When you are born, you are baptized, having parents and Godparents stand in your place to announce you are a part of the Catholic faith (because obviously babies can't make such proclamations). From there it is years of Catechism, so that by around the second grade you make your first Confession and first Holy Communion. Then, it is years of CCD (Catholic Christian Doctrine), so that by the time you are around 14 years old, you then go through "Confirmation," which is where "you" stand up and claim to be a part of the Catholic Faith (unlike being Baptized, where other adults make the proclamation for you). After all of that, you simply cannot say that the Catholic Church is not a part of who you are. And, as the Church sees it, you may take a different path in life, but you will always be a Catholic. Nothing will ever change that, by their thinking.
I'm not a "lapsed" Catholic, but I will admit to being a "Cafeteria" Catholic (The Vatican actually came up with that label, for American Catholics, not me). Meaning, that American Catholics have generally ignored the hateful rules coming out of Rome, and were more open to being socially liberal. In other words, picking the "good" stuff, and ignoring the "bad" or "hateful."
And like others that have mentioned, I too was an Alter Boy, and never had one Priest be inappropriate with me, or my brothers. Nor had I ever sat in a Mass where the Priest hammered on gays. Never. All the "gay hating" comes out of Rome. Nor can one say that the Church is filled with only pedophiles. It is not. There certainly was some terrible Priest, but that shouldn't reflect on all of the Priest. The ones I was raised around were kind and caring individuals.
For the most part, I'd say the majority of people that are Catholic and the Priests and Nuns are good people too, and often do not support the divisive attitudes and rules that come out of the Vatican.
Sorry for being so long-winded.
63
While reading Mr. Pakaluk's theories, I kept looking for the punchline, kept thinking thst this had to be a spoof or a joke. Particularly the bit about the gay couple that was interestingly activist in their involvement. If such involvment in the child's education is simply part of the homosexual agenda, teachers must prefer the children of same sex couples--I certainly would if I were a teacher.
This makes me sad to be heterosexual: my sex life apparently lacks inherent eroticism. I hadn't even noticed--thank you, Mr. Pakaluk, for pointing that out to me.
This makes me sad to be heterosexual: my sex life apparently lacks inherent eroticism. I hadn't even noticed--thank you, Mr. Pakaluk, for pointing that out to me.
64
Thanks for all the comments, guys. Dan et al, sorry for my tone, I would certainly rework a few sentences given a time machine. But I want to clarify that I was raised in a Catholic family too. My grandparents still go to church, my mom believes, and I went to catechism until I was eleven, when they asked me to stop coming because I asked too many questions.
I've considered myself an atheist since my teenage years, and I haven't missed the Catholic Church one bit. I think you guys give it too much credit. You can sit-stand-kneel at home, to much better music. And if you want to be inspired or reflect on humanity, listed to RadioLab or This American Life (or Savage Love!), or read a book. You don't need palms and crackers and cheap little candles to live a fulfilling and reflective life. And you certainly don't need to keep paying homage to an institution that's always been and always will be run by a herd of hateful, megalomaniacal perverts in silly clothes.
There I go with the tone thing again...
Sorry, the Catholic Church and all its apologists and revisionists and self-obsessed contrarian hangers-on (Andrew Sullivan, talking to you) just piss me off.
I've considered myself an atheist since my teenage years, and I haven't missed the Catholic Church one bit. I think you guys give it too much credit. You can sit-stand-kneel at home, to much better music. And if you want to be inspired or reflect on humanity, listed to RadioLab or This American Life (or Savage Love!), or read a book. You don't need palms and crackers and cheap little candles to live a fulfilling and reflective life. And you certainly don't need to keep paying homage to an institution that's always been and always will be run by a herd of hateful, megalomaniacal perverts in silly clothes.
There I go with the tone thing again...
Sorry, the Catholic Church and all its apologists and revisionists and self-obsessed contrarian hangers-on (Andrew Sullivan, talking to you) just piss me off.
65
It sounds like the administrators at the school stood up to this guy a little, and probably they all think of him as a complete ass.
So, I suppose that's a good thing.
So, I suppose that's a good thing.
66
@22 In my experience, Catholicism is practically an ethnicity. I have an Italian Catholic side of my family and an Irish Catholic side of my family, and to experience either is to be submerged in complete culture shock, for sure. I can renounce my faith all I want, but it doesn't change the fact that being raised Catholic colors and influences every aspect of my life.
In other news, my letter to the Boston Pilot mentions that homosexuality was removed from the Diagnostical and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders in 1973, so Mr. Pakaluk's "sexual disorder" comment is factually inaccurate.
In other news, my letter to the Boston Pilot mentions that homosexuality was removed from the Diagnostical and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders in 1973, so Mr. Pakaluk's "sexual disorder" comment is factually inaccurate.
67
64 "I went to catechism until I was eleven, when they asked me to stop coming because I asked too many questions."
See, this is the part I don't get. Once we were older than about seven, and our questions had some sense to them, we were encouraged to ask questions. It's like Americans went to a completely different Catholic Church than the one I was raised in.
I don't want to paint the church I grew up in in a rosy light - there was a lot of nonsense, starting with "yes this is *literally* the body and blood of Christ" and going right on down to the idea that the Creator of the Universe cared whether I snuck a piece of bacon on Friday, but the hateful rants so many of you remember just never happened to me.
See, this is the part I don't get. Once we were older than about seven, and our questions had some sense to them, we were encouraged to ask questions. It's like Americans went to a completely different Catholic Church than the one I was raised in.
I don't want to paint the church I grew up in in a rosy light - there was a lot of nonsense, starting with "yes this is *literally* the body and blood of Christ" and going right on down to the idea that the Creator of the Universe cared whether I snuck a piece of bacon on Friday, but the hateful rants so many of you remember just never happened to me.
68
To all who defend being a "cultural catholic": good for you, hanging on to shit that always gets in the way of change (be 'jewishish, catholicick, etc.). To give these manmade, fear based institutions any credibility only glaringly states your fear of just being human and relying on intelligence and reason to guide you. Each of these faiths were and still are existing because humans have a need to distinguish themselves from the masses and somehow feel more special than the rest. You need to know you're not more special, just handicapped and the special little holiday cookies and cakes and whatnots all reek of homophobia, bigotry, child molestations, misogyny and numerous other crippling, sanctified attitudes. I don't buy the defense (baptising your child in such filth is inexcusable) of it being part of your concept that will always be there. For a fact, I know I had more rigorous indoctrination in the faith than any catholic I know and still I could separate once seeing the damage these faiths have had on humanity. Dare to just be human, the common base we all have, and perhaps then we'll see a human morality grow, apart from any lifestyle choices like "cultural catholicism". Can't really throw stones at others so long as you hang on to your own distinguishing labels such as "cultural catholic", or "jewishish", or "gay christian". Science, logic, method and intelligence seem to be enough for other species, why not humans? Too often our reluctance to let go of the concepts that made us feel 'special' is the very thing that makes us part of the problem rather than the solution.
69
@marylandcrab: don't know of any social science that would respect the term, "catholic by birth". what were the distinguishing marks?
70
@66, experiencing Catholicism as an ethnicity also certainly rings true in Scotland, where, for example, my partner was instructed by his parents not to tell police officers he had attended St. Mary's School because they would refuse to help him. (Their concerns were well-founded. When he did reveal that information after being attacked by 90 or so boys from the neighborhood Protestant school, the cop shook his head and said "You papes are always at it.") The Orange Walk is also problematic every year: the Protestant march makes it a point to pass through Catholic neighborhoods and blockade people in their homes to demonstrate that they can't ever become real members of the community.
Whether or not my partner believes in Catholic doctrines (he doesn't), he doesn't get to stop being "culturally Catholic".
Whether or not my partner believes in Catholic doctrines (he doesn't), he doesn't get to stop being "culturally Catholic".
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